James Rojas and John Kamp talk about engaging people through their hands and senses for the Yolo County Active Transportation Corridors Plan (YATC) which aims to create multi-use trails, enhance mobility, and break down barriers for low-income and minority residents in this rural California community. The project leverages public interest design of transportation services to address the needs of the region's most isolated and disadvantaged areas.
Contact Information
- James Rojas: placeit.org or LinkedIn
- John Kamp: prairieform.com or LinkedIn
Further Reading
Their book “Dream Play Build” delves into the psychology behind their engaging methods and provides a deeper understanding of how playful approaches can transform urban planning processes. Available in paperback and E-book formats at https://islandpress.org/books/dream-play-build.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to fireside chatsbrought to you by engaging
cities.
I'm Hickler, the communitymanager of engaging cities and
the founder of innovationstudio.
Each episode we talk to thepeople behind the plans and
learn about how communityengagement helped to strengthen
(00:34):
and bolster that plan.
So on today's episode we havethe pleasure of talking to James
Rojas.
And John Camp, who I feel likeneed almost no introduction.
You guys are like celebritiesbasically in the city planning,
community engagement world.
And I feel like no matter whereI go what state I'm in, what
(00:58):
country I'm in, what conferenceI go to, I run into someone who
knows you, who's worked withyou, At least knows of your
work.
So congratulations on makingsuch an impact in the world.
John Kamp (01:13):
But
Kelly Hickler (01:16):
just for some of our listeners who maybe have
been living under a rock and arenot familiar with you, maybe
give yourselves a littleintroduction and talk about the
work it is that you do.
James Rojas (01:30):
Hey, my name is James Rojas and I'm a.
City planner, an artist, and Iuse art making and storytelling
as a way to get people engagedin planning.
And it all began when I workedat Alley Metro working on
transportation plans for theeast side.
And we would have meetings with40 Latinos in the room.
And all they would do is nodtheir head.
Then you get some kind of personthat speaks really loud about
(01:53):
what they wanted to see.
So it wasn't really a goodsituation, but at the same time,
it opened up an art gallery indowntown Los Angeles.
I work with artists and Ithought, how could we as
planners.
engage people the same wayartists do, through their
senses, through creativity andjoy.
They started bringing thatprocess into the planning
process, which kind of startedthe whole kind of placid kind of
(02:16):
idea about sensory basedplanning.
John Kamp (02:20):
I'm Doug Kapp.
I'm a landscape and urbandesigner licensed landscape
contractor in the state ofCalifornia, facilitator with
Prairie Farm.
So I'm Prairie Farm Jamesplacid.
We do about 80 percent of ourwork together.
I started Prairie Farm in 2008.
It's definitely evolved overtime.
I think the biggest thing thatI've tried to do is expand the
(02:42):
scope and reach of the work sothat we're engaging more people
in the process.
So it started as more of a topdown, I'm the designer, I do
everything.
And now a lot of what we do isengage people through their
hands and senses and at leastpart of a creation of.
Spaces and places exploration ofspaces and places so that we're
(03:04):
bringing in a broader crosssection of folks into the fold.
So it's not just.
Kind of the chosen few who aredesigning and building things,
but we're bringing in.
A diverse array of folks intothe process.
Kelly Hickler (03:18):
Yeah, I love it.
And as a participant in yourprocess before, I absolutely
love it.
It's so much fun.
And if the listeners are notfamiliar with your place it
method, it's basically takingfound objects and using them to
represent whatever you want themto be.
(03:42):
And you start with recreating achildhood memory, right?
And then getting people intothat creative space and then
using that method to design.
Whatever it is that you'retalking about a corridor or
neighborhood or whatnot.
And it's just, it's so inviting.
(04:03):
It's so easy for anyone to do.
And it's really fun.
John Kamp (04:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We tried to remove barriers tothe process.
Yeah, absolutely.
James Rojas (04:15):
And also the whole idea is to really have people
talk about the relationshipbetween their bodies and land
and other people.
Absolutely.
rather than the knowledge youhave about a map or a place.
That's very transactional.
Kelly Hickler (04:28):
How
James Rojas (04:29):
your body relates to a space is really critical to
how you understand the city or aplace.
Kelly Hickler (04:35):
Yeah, I love that.
It's not about how much youknow.
John Kamp (04:41):
Yeah, well, kind of how much you know on a rational
level.
I think that's what it is,right?
We don't place a premium onanyone's we don't, we don't say
one person's favorite childhoodmemory is better than another's.
We also don't, expect people tounderstand how to read a map.
For example, these kinds of likeclassic skills that you're
(05:02):
supposed to have as a planner ordesigner, designing at a scale
is another thing that we don'trequire
Kelly Hickler (05:09):
people to
John Kamp (05:09):
do, even though that's something that's very.
You know, that's like what youget trained to do in planning
school design school not so muchplanning school But definitely
in design school To work at ascale.
So we remove a lot of thosethings so that people cause
those are barriers really toentry process.
Then people can be creative in away that they couldn't
(05:30):
otherwise.
And once you introduce scale toeveryday folks and you ask them
to be creative and work at ascale they freeze up generally.
Kelly Hickler (05:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do like even professionals do.
John Kamp (05:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we just did a weekendlong studio with students.
At WashU and St.
Louis this past fall and theseare design students, so they're
they were all I think at leastsecond years so, they're they'd
already been steeped in thewhole process and done as far as
(06:05):
The design, the kind ofconventional design process.
We have them actually used fortheir models.
So they built a two scale modelwithin the materials they used
for their interventions in, itwas an urban design studio and
their interventions in thesespaces and places.
We have them use unconventionalmaterials.
We have them use all the kind ofmaterials they normally use like
(06:26):
pipe cleaners, air rollers, youname it.
We gave them free license to cutthem up and manipulate them and
change them and alter them, butat a scale.
So they still had to work atthat scale.
But what they said is that toyour point about how scale can
really cause people to freezeup, they said, at the very
least, this wasn't staring at ablank white screen and thinking,
(06:49):
Oh God, I have to like, fillthis with something and this
kind of pressure to be perfectright off the bat.
So we take that perfection.
The premium of perfection out ofit.
And they said, I just felt somuch freer to explore ideas and
then the outcomes end up being alot more playful in the process.
(07:11):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, at the end of the day,that's what we want, with this
park project we're doing inOakland.
There is a definitely the phaseone of it's done and there is an
element of playfulness and joythat I think you see in the
space already and I think thatcomes about because of the
methods that we use because theyare rooted in playfulness and
(07:33):
enjoy.
Kelly Hickler (07:34):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Well, when that project's done,we'll have to have you back on
the podcast to talk about thatone.
But today I think you guys aregoing to talk about some work
you did in Yolo County.
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
John Kamp (07:51):
So for folks who don't know, Yolo County is West
of Sacramento and kind of northand a little bit south.
So it doesn't include WestSacramento itself, but then
Davis is in Yolo County.
Some incorporated towns, but alot of unincorporated towns are
in Yolo County.
So it's a pretty rural
James Rojas (08:11):
agriculture,
John Kamp (08:12):
agricultural County.
And this project is looking atactive transportation.
So walking, rolling, biking,scooting.
Et cetera in these towns and howwe can improve walking and
rolling in these towns and alsoimprove the connections between
and among these towns.
Kelly Hickler (08:33):
Okay.
James Rojas (08:35):
Yeah, so we were hired to do a community outreach
for these small, unincorporatedtowns in Yolo County, and we did
7 or 8 workshops, and it's beenreally fascinating because
you're going to small towns andmaybe.
Don't even have a don't evenhave a traffic signal.
Kelly Hickler (08:53):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
James Rojas (08:55):
You know, it's very rare to see a town this rural in
California, but there are townslike this up northern in Yolo
County, you have tickets righton the streets, and stopping
traffic and, windows windowcorner market.
So it's, so we were tasked to docommunity engagement here and,
fly with community members,they've probably never been to
(09:16):
be a meeting at all.
And it's a public meeting, so wehad workshops in their local
town halls, that they have inthese small towns that bring
people together and really startto build that capacity to
understand what their needs areand who they are and what they
value and how we can kind ofmove forward.
We're first, for people that arefirst time, a lot of them were
(09:36):
Spanish speaking.
It was a really interestingprocess.
Kelly Hickler (09:40):
Okay.
Did you, were there translatorsthere to help out?
John Kamp (09:46):
Sometimes.
It depends on the group thatshows up at the meeting.
So sometimes we had Folks whoare Spanish only.
So you would, you know, I speakboth Spanish and English, so
I'll translate sometimes, orthere are other people on the
consultant side or in the primecontractor, prime fair and
(10:07):
pierce.
Who speaks Spanish, so we canjust do kind of on the spot
translation, so it just depends.
Yeah, there's
James Rojas (10:16):
no formal PowerPoint, so it's really
simple.
Kelly Hickler (10:19):
Yeah, right.
Okay, got you.
So you said there was a seriesof eight workshops?
John Kamp (10:25):
Yeah.
So we did a work.
Well, one is a pop up.
So we did a pop up event at apublic health fair, and then the
rest were workshops inunincorporated towns in Yolo
County.
So we did a model buildingworkshop at each one.
We had people build their firstmemory of a mobility experience.
And then we have them work inteams to our groups to build
(10:46):
their ideal, whatever the townis that we were.
That we were working in, so,build your ideal Yolo, for
example, there's a town in YoloCounty called Yolo and we had
them build their ideal Yolo forwalking and biking.
But then also thinking about theconnections, like I said
earlier, the connection between.
The town itself and then theother towns in the county.
(11:09):
How to get to those on foot oron bike or some other form of
non motorized transportation.
Kelly Hickler (11:17):
Okay, got you.
What's something that you thinkwent really well throughout the
whole process?
Whether is it one particularthing at one workshop or maybe
something across all theworkshops?
James Rojas (11:32):
I think one of the things that worked well is that.
We got people to engage in theprocess by using their hands and
talking about their firstmobility experience and who we
attract to is probably adifferent demographics.
Like the fact last time wemeeting two nights ago, we're
all, it was all women.
And it's just two girls, 11 and12 kind of stole the show.
John Kamp (11:54):
Yeah.
James Rojas (11:54):
They had the prettiest model, the best ideas,
cause in fact you know, Anyway,they weren't even planning on
coming to the meeting, but theywere riding a bike outside and
told them we have Pandusainside.
They came in for the fun doodlestep instead of the planning.
And they were the first timeever doing anything like this.
And they were really interestedin hearing their ideas and
stories.
(12:15):
And how they can conceptualizeand build models with their
material to talk about what theywant to see in their community.
And I think, so this kind of,the process really went well in
attracting people and engagingespecially Latinos in these
communities.
But otherwise, kind of not go toa meeting, or be bored at the
meeting.
Kelly Hickler (12:35):
Right.
James Rojas (12:37):
And then plus, people can bring their kids.
A lot of kids and a lot offamilies that get attended to
workshops.
Which is really nice.
Kelly Hickler (12:45):
Yeah, I think what's nice about your method is
that I've been to workshopsbefore or even facilitated
workshops where kids arewelcome, but there's like, Oh,
there's a separate kids areaover there where the kids go
color or something over there,but with your method, the kids
can participate in the meetingtoo.
(13:06):
That's really unique.
James Rojas (13:08):
Yeah.
And it's good to see, parentsand kids build together.
Kelly Hickler (13:11):
Yeah.
James Rojas (13:12):
Each other.
What I do with the kids arethinking.
And.
Have no idea where their parentscome from, what their memories
are.
So it's really good to have thatkind of bond.
Kelly Hickler (13:21):
Oh, yeah.
Oh I really like that.
John Kamp (13:23):
I think one of the most valuable things that's come
out of this process is just thatit become very clear.
By way of the process thatpeople want to walk and bike in
small towns too.
I think there's this.
Misconception that walking andbiking are these things that
urbanites do and want to do andit's, of course we have urban
(13:46):
neighborhoods in the countrythat are extremely expensive
because people do want to walkand bike and so they want to buy
or own these neighborhoods wherethey can walk and bike because
these are in short supply in theUnited States, unfortunately.
But the same can be said offolks in small towns.
They don't want to just driveeverywhere.
And I think that's a bigcomplaint that we've heard.
(14:08):
And some of the people havebuilt their models is towns
where they can walk her bike toa coffee shop, or they can walk
her back to the post office.
So they can walk her bike to seetheir friends.
Or they can walk or bike or rollor scoop to the next town over
or two towns over, if they wantto make a day of it, they could
(14:31):
do that.
So I think that's been one ofthe real values of doing this
project through this process,because If we had done this just
by way of having people talk andwe had said, what are you, how
do you want to make your town orwalk, wall and bike?
Invariably they would havefocused on dangers, right?
They wouldn't just focus on,well, here's this area that's
(14:51):
dangerous.
Okay.
That's valid.
That's important.
But we also want to hear fromthem, how the bigger ideas,
right?
What about?
Okay, so we know that thisintersection is a problem and
that's important to know.
But what about some other partsof the town where you just want
to.
Think big, and you want to beable to have an opportunity to
walk and bike and.
(15:13):
Explore and do all these otherthings, and those are the kinds
of things that come out of theseworkshops.
Some people work for their handsversus just talking,
Kelly Hickler (15:20):
right?
James Rojas (15:22):
Yeah, don't you realize that these people here
are very self reliant.
If they wanted to walk to natureor to socialize,
John Kamp (15:30):
but
James Rojas (15:30):
it wasn't really like walking to and from like in
city, we walked in places.
John Kamp (15:35):
Mm
James Rojas (15:35):
hmm.
We could have things to walk to,but here it's more soft for
light, and so they're walking ismore based on this nature and
socializing and not walking toall these stores or walking to
these events because they don'thave them there, but they walk
for a different kind of reasons.
John Kamp (15:52):
But they want that.
I will say that they want that.
They said they've said that overand over again.
They want to be able to walk to.
You know, like in done again,for example, they wanted to be
able to walk or bike to the postoffice and they wanted to walk
or bike to the whole commercialarea.
Yeah, I think they want
James Rojas (16:10):
both was very limited because they don't have
a lot of things to walk.
It's not like living in downtownLA or something, we can walk to
other places.
Kelly Hickler (16:18):
Right, yeah, it's more for recreation.
Yeah,
James Rojas (16:21):
socializing.
Kelly Hickler (16:22):
Yeah, okay, cool.
So when people built theirmodels, how do you record their
ideas?
What
John Kamp (16:32):
we do is we'll, once some, everyone's built their
models, we have a flip chart upfront.
It's.
In the room or somewhere whereeveryone can see it.
And then we'll just have each,we'll just go from person to
person and have them give ustheir name, the place of their
memory, and then what the memoryis.
And then we just write it downor paraphrase it.
(16:54):
And then after that, we havepeople pull up the recurring
themes of the memories.
So if we didn't do that, itwould be a, an activity that was
kind of half finished becausegreat.
Okay.
Everyone shares their memory.
But we're not really seeing whatwe all have in common.
And part of what we're trying todo with these workshops is build
(17:14):
bridges and bring peopletogether who might see
themselves as at your worst caseadversaries.
But the best case, just asstrangers or people who seem
different from each other.
So in this case, when we havepeople football at the recreate
themes, they can start to reallysee, Oh, okay.
We do have a lot in common andmemory.
(17:37):
Have a lot in common.
And then when they do the secondactivity, we do something very
similar.
We just write down so they'llpresent what they've built and
we'll write down a abbreviatedversion of what they've built.
We have also started adding,especially for this project in
particular, we started Givingthem post it notes.
(18:00):
So once they're done withbuilding, you have them label
all the different parts of theirmodels.
Kelly Hickler (18:07):
Okay.
John Kamp (18:07):
Did this in part because some of the, what they
were talking about was veryplace specific.
So it was very much like, okay,this is this highway, or this is
this road, or this is thisintersection.
And because we did so manymeetings, we needed to be able
to keep track of all that.
And I just felt like, okay, I'mnot going to be able to remember
(18:28):
that this model, this part ofthis model represents the street
or whatever.
So we gave them post it notesand then, and they write down
all their ideas, stick them nextto what they've built.
And then I'll just take apicture at the end so that I
have it.
And then we can go back andreference the models and then
the particular.
spots and locations in themodels if people have filled
(18:50):
those.
Kelly Hickler (18:51):
Okay.
John Kamp (18:53):
And then we have them pull out the recurring themes of
those models too.
And those themes really serve ascore values for the project
moving forward, core values forthe community so they can
recognize oh, we're on the samepage in a lot of ways in terms
of what we want for, Ourcommunity, but they also serve
(19:16):
as core values that can thenguide the project as it moves
forward and becomes moved moreinto the design phase and
looking at actual designs forthese spaces and places in these
towns.
Kelly Hickler (19:31):
Yeah.
That's really neat how thosethemes or core values kind of
naturally emerged through theprocess.
And that was gonna be my nextquestion, was how you
incorporate that feedback intothe plan.
So it sounds like those corethemes.
Or core values that emerge kindof end up serving as the basis
(19:56):
for the plan.
John Kamp (19:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, they're really the guidingprinciples of the plan.
They could be the guidingprinciples of, say, the park
project that we're doing inOakland.
So they can be these coreguiding principles for the
design process.
But the other thing too is that,there's this whole Kind of
current track, but of thisproject where there's a lot of
(20:20):
data analysis.
So, pedestrian.
Accidents between cars andbikes, cars and pedestrians.
Kind of hotspot areas,problematic areas in these
towns.
And there are also a lot of pastplans and current plans that
have identified areas forimprovement.
We're meshing and merging whatcomes out of these workshops
(20:44):
with all of those.
And then we can have for eachtown, we can have a set of
priority areas for, sayintersection that needs some
serious road diets and trafficcalming to, opportunities for
some kind of trail, maybe arails to trails project that
(21:07):
connects.
One part of the town to anotheror that town to another town.
So that's another way in whichthis More informal engagement is
emerging with this kind of moreformal.
Kelly Hickler (21:23):
Yeah,
James Rojas (21:25):
those of you want to see how for the residents,
you want them to see how theirpersonal history and the stories
are embedded in this plan.
John Kamp (21:33):
Hmm.
James Rojas (21:34):
It's not just, it's because it starts with their
stories, their memory, theplaces.
That drives the process forwardand now they're, this is meshed
into this plan where people comefrom all over.
Where they come from and thesestories become this kind of
collective basis for thisprocess.
So they see themselves in thisplan.
(21:56):
Not just me.
You're saying I'm designing thebikeway.
But here it's kind of like, youdon't know your story from
Mexico or from SouthernCalifornia or from wherever you
come from.
Kelly Hickler (22:07):
Yeah.
James Rojas (22:08):
Kind of moving its way into this plan.
Kelly Hickler (22:11):
Yeah, it really personalizes the plan instead of
just this dry, sterile,technical document.
Now it has stories and historyto it.
That's really cool.
Was there anything that didn'tgo as planned or didn't work as
well as you would hope thatmaybe you would change next
(22:31):
time?
James Rojas (22:34):
If the weather we were working in a Delta.
And it was a really wet, reallyheavy rain.
So nobody came to the meeting.
Kelly Hickler (22:44):
Oh, you
James Rojas (22:46):
know, then you realize it's a book in the
Delta.
It's this kind of thing.
Thank Holland, these levees andwater and land.
So it's really kind of dangerousplace to drive.
But that was one thing, but alot, I think.
A lot of the meetings werereally, they felt really,
because they don't have peoplethat don't necessarily go to
(23:07):
meetings, it felt kind ofspontaneous, it's kind of
spontaneous flair around it.
Kelly Hickler (23:12):
And,
James Rojas (23:12):
We're just bringing people off the street,
literally, which is fine, whichis great, but it's just really,
but you realize that these are,you attracted people who care
about their communities tomeetings, but it was in this
really loose kind of way.
I don't know, and I don't knowif it can make it tighter.
I don't know if you could haveRSVP or something.
John Kamp (23:34):
Yeah, turnout is a challenge, but these are really
small places, so it's achallenge to get people to turn
out to a meeting in, say, somecity in Southern California,
which has a lot of people, andthen Southern California itself
has a ton of people.
Kelly Hickler (23:51):
Right.
John Kamp (23:52):
So that can be a challenge.
I think in some ways it can be achallenge for other reasons
because people are oversaturatedwith activities and there's the
traffic issue and that kind ofthing.
But, I think in general, it canjust be a challenge to get
people to come to meetings.
So in this case, it was kind ofthe opposite where, they're
very, these towns are tiny.
(24:12):
So if we get eight people, To ameeting.
That's good turnout.
Cause these towns are like 200people.
Kelly Hickler (24:23):
That's really good percentage.
John Kamp (24:25):
Yeah.
I'd say, if you're thinkingabout like a survey and results
of a survey, like statisticallysignificant.
So in this case, eight people isstatistically significant.
Kelly Hickler (24:38):
That's a statistically valid or
representative sample.
John Kamp (24:41):
Yeah, I think so.
Anyways, so I, otherwise I feellike it's gone really well.
I think the thing that you'realways worried about, especially
transportation projects, is thatpeople are going to come in and
complain about parking.
You're going to take away theirparking and and that people are
(25:03):
going to complain about traffic,but because we're engaging
people in their hands and notthrough talking, they're really
not in that mindset.
They can't be, I mean, it, itreally does have to do with just
brain activity.
and fundamental psychology.
When you're working with yourhands, you're not firing up the
selfish part of your brain, theprefrontal cortex part of your
(25:24):
brain.
That's the part of your brainthat's fired up if you're given
your two minutes to speak infront of the group.
And the question is, what do youwant to see in your town to make
it more walkable and biteable?
That's Really when you setthings up, it's kind of a recipe
for disaster because then peopleare in prefrontal cortex mode,
survival mode selfish mode.
(25:45):
So they're going to say thingslike, well, I just, I don't want
people to take away my parking.
And I, the traffic's bad hereand I don't want bike lanes and
all that stuff.
But then when you switch it andyou have people work with their
hands, They're not in thatselfish survival mode, they're
able to be aspirational, they'reable to be collaborative, and
they're able to be creative, andso then they're really focused
(26:08):
on what they actually want, liketheir dream for their community,
like, I would love to see this,I
Kelly Hickler (26:16):
would,
John Kamp (26:16):
That kind of thing, so then it's totally different,
so it's not, I don't want this.
Kelly Hickler (26:20):
Yes.
John Kamp (26:22):
I would love to see this.
This would be amazing if we hadthis.
Wouldn't our town beautiful andwonderful and wouldn't it be
incredible if we could bikefrom, Yolo to Dunnigan or,
whatever it's town from town totown.
Kelly Hickler (26:37):
Yes.
James Rojas (26:38):
And also by having people start up by building a
family travel memory.
You take away the whole idea ofownership, because as children,
we didn't own anything, we justplayed in space, and it was all
free form, all open, accessibleto us.
So people don't see propertyvalues here as being the, what
they're concerned about.
So now you take that for amoment, and now you're just
(27:01):
thinking about, in general,what's best for this town.
Not their own personal interest.
Kelly Hickler (27:07):
Oh yeah, that's fascinating.
You have a lot more, you have a
James Rojas (27:09):
lot more public, you have more of a utopian
spirit then.
Well, they don't own property, Ithink that's
John Kamp (27:14):
what you're trying to say.
James Rojas (27:14):
Well, I'm just saying that as kids, you don't
own property.
And people never talk about, Iown this, this, and this.
It's always like, it's time totreat, I picked flowers, I did
these things.
Right.
What they owned.
Kelly Hickler (27:27):
Right.
James Rojas (27:28):
And I think you want to just tell people, you
want to put people in thatmindset where ownership isn't
what you're here for.
Property values.
Kelly Hickler (27:36):
Right.
Yeah.
It takes you out of that selfinterested mode into more of a
community like other centered,not self centered.
John Kamp (27:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I do think.
I will say, kids do go through aphase where they're like, this
is mine, right?
Yes That's like I feel likethat's part of child development
is that kids go through a phasewhere like this is mine This is
my house.
This is my whatever You know,even in our workshops when we
(28:11):
have kids in our workshops Theynever say stuff like that,
right?
They're never in that, even ifthey are in that phase in their
lives where they're thinking,mine, mine, mine don't do that
in the workshops.
And I think again, it just hasto do with brain activity.
And when you're working withyour hands and you're working
with your hands with otherpeople, they tend to, kids tend
(28:33):
to really calm down and they areable to make room for other
people's, Ideas and adults inthe same way, so we get the
question all the time about ouraudience and the people will
say, well, you guys must workwith kids a lot.
And actually that's not thecase.
Maybe 10 percent of our work iswith kids specifically.
(28:56):
The rest is with grownups.
And part of it is that we'retrying to get grownups to think
more like kids in that kind ofexpansive, curious way.
That kids are very naturally inthat way, and that we become
less and less of as we getolder, or we tend to become less
(29:17):
curious and less open.
I mean, that's a really terriblething I think about getting
older.
In some ways, you are, you knowmore, you might be more sure of
certain things.
Mm-Hmm, But you also become morerigid.
Kelly Hickler (29:32):
Oh, yeah, we're
John Kamp (29:33):
trying to get people to it's like a record with
grooves in it.
We're trying to get people tobreak out of those grooves in
that record.
James Rojas (29:45):
And also to revisit their relationship to land.
I tell people, Favorite childmemory is probably the only time
in your life where you had thisreally closed relationship to
the landscape.
You're playing with mud, you'reeating mud, you're touching mud,
you're smelling of flower.
As adults we move ourselves fromthis everyday experience of
being in the land.
John Kamp (30:05):
Mm-Hmm.
James Rojas (30:06):
So you wanna remind people of how important land is
to your psychology, because whenyou're in a car, you're on the
landscape, not in the landscape.
Kelly Hickler (30:14):
Oh
James Rojas (30:15):
yeah,
Kelly Hickler (30:16):
that's good.
Oh, that's a good distinction.
I'm going to remember thatyou're on the landscape, not in
the landscape.
I feel like that even sometimesriding a bike you know, and you
get going pretty fast, it's likethe same thing where
everything's just going by andyou're not really experiencing
it.
So it's like nothing can replacewalking walking through a town,
(30:41):
through a place.
Yeah.
All right.
Is there any words of advicethat you would share with
someone who is undertaking asimilar project?
John Kamp (30:54):
Start with the hands and the senses.
That's the key at the end of theday.
It doesn't matter how great yourpresentation is that you put
together at the beginning andexplaining the projects.
talking about what you wantpeople to understand.
If you don't engage peoplethrough their hands and their
senses, they are going toultimately end up in that
(31:16):
prefrontal cortex survival modein that community setting.
And so they're going to end upsaying the same things that
we've heard over and over, youknow, parking, less traffic.
no density, no growth.
So that's it.
It's as simple as that.
We're biased of course, but wealso see the real results and
(31:40):
the radical change in outcomeswhen you engage with their hands
and senses and not throughlanguage.
I think there's a lot ofengagement going on right now
that's well meaning, but that'sjust so focused on language.
And if you engage people throughlanguage, they're not going to
be able to be creative.
And a lot of times they'llfreeze up even.
(32:02):
We actually don't even setground rules for our meetings.
We never say, you must use thesewords.
Don't use these words.
You need to be a nice person andyou need to be with other
people.
We never do that because whenpeople work with their hands,
their best selves come out.
James Rojas (32:18):
We never do introductions because we want
people, introduce people to eachother through their childhood
memories, not about theirprofessional status.
Yeah, so the activity would beintroductions.
I think also just approach theseevents like a party.
It's a social event.
You have a really goodopportunity to bring people
together and be happy andjoyful.
(32:39):
You want to leave with that.
So they'll come back for moremeetings,
Kelly Hickler (32:44):
more planning.
Yeah.
James Rojas (32:45):
We don't go to meetings in our neighborhood
because they're always veryargumentative.
And why do you want to spend anhour, why do you want to spend
two hours with people arguing?
You know, like, like myneighbors, but I hate the
meetings we have.
Kelly Hickler (33:00):
Yeah.
I think I wonder how manyplanners go to meetings?
Their own meeting, like theirown meetings in their own town,
probably not very many, causethey're usually boring or yeah,
argumentative controversial.
It's like, uh, no, I don't evenwant to go to my own meeting in
(33:22):
my own town.
Yeah.
John Kamp (33:23):
Yeah.
We've literally been to oneneighborhood meeting here and it
was so contentious and awful.
And, it was the textbook exampleof a precious few dominating the
entire meeting.
So who are these people whodominate the meeting?
There are people who aren'tafraid of conflict.
There are, they're not afraid ofpublic speaking.
(33:44):
So they're okay getting up infront of a group of people and
talking or yelling, right.
And, and that's a very, verysmall subset of the population.
Who could do that?
I don't think people realize howafraid most people are of public
speaking.
Kelly Hickler (34:03):
Oh God.
Yeah, I think that's like thenumber one fear or like it might
be number one or maybe it'snumber two after death.
I don't know.
It's really high up there forpeople's fears, public speaking.
John Kamp (34:18):
Yeah.
And we've created a whole systemof engagement and community
engagement around.
Public speaking.
And that's the very thing thatpeople, one of the things that
people are the most afraid ofacross the board.
If I, if we do a presentationand I ask the group, doesn't
matter where, doesn't matter theage.
(34:40):
If I ask the group who likespublic speaking, I'll get maybe
one hand or maybe a half hand,sort of, maybe if I have to, So,
our idea of democracy anddemocracy and action in this
country is really like theperson standing up in front of a
(35:01):
group and speaking their mind,it's like the guy in the soapbox
or the podium, or you're on astage and you're speaking your
mind, you're rallying the troopsand you're getting everyone all
excited.
But that, again, that's a veryparticular kind of person who is
okay with doing that and iscomfortable
Kelly Hickler (35:20):
with doing that.
John Kamp (35:21):
And then you add in, say, a language barrier as well.
So maybe your first language isin English and you're going to
be even less comfortable.
It could be, some people will becomfortable, but a lot of people
won't be, you know, somethingthat's not their first language
in front of a larger people.
And, a lot of this, again, withit comes back to psychology,
(35:43):
what I was saying earlier, youcan come up with the most,
Convincing polished presentationyou can possibly come up with
for, something about activetransportation or urban design
or walkable streets or whatever,but if you're engaging people
through language.
You're still going to be firingup a particular part of your
(36:04):
brain their brains, that's notthe creative aspirational part
of their brains.
And the same is true with publicspeaking.
We don't like public speakingbecause we don't like being
stared at.
That's really what it comes downto.
That's very primal.
It has to do with when we livedout in the wild.
And if something was staring atyou, it meant that it wanted to
(36:24):
kill you.
Kelly Hickler (36:25):
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
That's so true.
John Kamp (36:29):
Yeah.
So, you think about, like somenature show that you watched
where the predator is scanningthe, the open field or meadow or
Savannah or whatever it is fortheir prey and like this sort of
locking eyes onto the prey,right.
And then after The prey are, youknow, a mountain lion and in the
(36:51):
Angeles National Forest inSouthern California, right?
I mean, this is, that's whathappens.
They lock eyes on the prey.
And so this is what we'refeeling in a very primal way.
When we're up in front of agroup of people, we don't know
that, right?
Unless you know aboutpsychology, you know about this,
you know that you're not like,Oh crap, all these people are
staring at me.
(37:11):
I feel like they want to killme.
But that is what you'reessentially what's happening.
There are all these people eyeson you and it's stirring up that
primal fear of like, oh crap.
Kelly Hickler (37:22):
Yeah, I've heard too that it has to do with
people are worried about gettingcast out of the group.
That if you say something wrongthat you're going to be,
expelled from the group.
Is that?
Part of it too.
John Kamp (37:42):
Yeah, because you're not getting the immediate
response from people when you'respeaking up in public, right?
It's not a conversation.
You're not getting even like thefacial cues that you will get in
a conver most conversations.
You know, so if you think aboutyou yourself sitting in an
audience listening to someonetalk, it's not like at every
(38:06):
moment.
of the presentation you'renodding your head and you're
smiling and you're raising youreyebrows or you know you're
making out you just you might dothat a little bit but not that
much so when you're up in frontof a group of people you're not
going to get all the cues thatwe give each other when we're in
a conversation that make youthat make the other person feel
(38:26):
comfortable.
So smiling, for example, issomething that we might do in
response to a joke.
But a lot of times we're smilingbecause we're giving people,
that person we're talking to,this sense that they're being
heard and that you'recomfortable and that you hear
them and oh yeah, I know whatyou're talking about, right?
(38:48):
And you don't necessarily getthat when you're speaking up in
front of a group of people.
So absolutely, and it can stirup these fears of, oh crap,
these people must really notlike what I'm saying, and
they're gonna come after me atpitchforks.
Kelly Hickler (39:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I've been in meetings beforewhere the loudest voices or the
people who are comfortablespeaking up, you have one
opinion and there's people inthe audience who come up to me
afterwards.
(39:26):
and say, well, you know, wedon't agree.
There's actually a lot of ushere who don't agree with that.
We're just not comfortablegetting up and speaking in front
of, I mean, I've been inmeetings with 500 people, like
I'm intimidated speaking infront of 500 people.
(39:47):
So, um, I can't imagine someonewho is not a professional who
doesn't talk in front of peopleprofessionally what they're
going to stand up in front of500 people and have a different
opinion, or even if they're theminority opinion and but they
have a different perspective,are you going to be the one to
(40:10):
put yourself out there and gowell, actually, You know, I
think this, no, that's, that'sterrifying for people to do.
John Kamp (40:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, taking it back to theworkshops we do, a big part of
what we're doing is taking thatfear out of the process.
So there is no pressure for youto stand up in front of a group
and speak.
The eyes are going to actuallybe on the model.
So when you present, people aregoing to be looking at your
model.
(40:40):
Right.
So that takes a lot of thepressure off.
And then it's like we weresaying earlier, no memory is
better than another memory.
So it's not, some battle of thewills or some battle of might
and stronger.
And then when people worktogether in teams to build an
(41:01):
ideal space or place, they'reworking with their hands.
They're not hashing it outthrough language and.
A lot of times when people passthings out through language,
they tend to push people's ideasout of the way, right?
Yes, but, I don't know.
Yes,
Kelly Hickler (41:17):
but.
John Kamp (41:18):
Yes, but.
There's a lot of yes, but, andthere's a sort of, my idea is
best and I need to get everyoneelse to realize that it is best,
right?
Whereas when you build an idealspace or place, You literally
make room for other people'sideas.
You physically are making roomfor other people's ideas.
(41:41):
You can see in the model thatthere is actually room that it's
possible to have all thesedifferent ideas.
Within the same space.
Kelly Hickler (41:53):
That's so cool.
Do you have from these workshopsthat you did in Yolo County, do
you have any particular momentsor things that really stand out
to you that are your favoritepart of it?
James Rojas (42:10):
I think for us, it was really meeting the people
that care, meaning the peoplethat really want to drive change
in these communities, It bringsthem out, and they come in and,
they become part of the processthat you begin to see, people
who care and how you can reallynurture that group of people to
really move forward in thisplan.
John Kamp (42:29):
I think one of the coolest things was just to be
able to go to these towns.
These are overlooked places.
They're very small.
I think most people who gothrough Yolo County go through
on one of the freeways and theydon't ever get off the freeway
to actually go into these townsand they have a lot of history
(42:53):
in them.
There are beautiful historicchurches, the town of Yolo has a
brand new library in the centerof town with this incredible
kind of plaza.
It's really good.
Gathering meeting area aroundit, but it looks like a house
like they built it and kind ofarts and crafts craftsman
Bungalow style so it does justlook like this beautiful house,
(43:16):
but it's a public space It's alibrary and everything around
it's public But then the townhas all these chickens and
roosters that just roam freelyaround the town So you're you
know, we're in the middle ofdoing our workshop and out just
out the window.
You can see these casing aroundthe perimeter of the library.
(43:37):
So that for me has been one ofthe funnest parts is just to be
able to actually visit thesetowns and meet the people who
live in these towns.
Is it a big surprise that peoplewant to walk and bike?
In these towns it shouldn't bebut maybe it is a little bit I
think when you live in a cityYou know you have these ideas
(43:57):
about what people want indifferent places So they must
want this here.
They must want this there youlive in a small town.
You must just want to driveeverywhere, but that's not true
that's totally not true at allpeople want the same things and
it's a recreate theme of so muchof the work We do is that We see
that across the border, acrossthe country, in different size
(44:21):
places, different demographic,with different demographics,
people want very similar things.
They want to be able to walk,they want to be able to have
places and spaces for gatheringthey want opportunities for
exploration, discovery, theywant to be with their families,
with friends, they want nature,they want a lot of nature, want
(44:45):
trees and that to me is one ofthe most striking things because
we were making less and less.
Nature in some ways, just interms of how we're developing in
this country and how sprawlingeverything is outside of the
center cities, but people wantmore nature.
(45:06):
They don't want less of it forsure.
Kelly Hickler (45:09):
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say
they want less.
open space or less nature.
John Kamp (45:16):
Right.
It's, it's never happened.
I mean, the people's favoritechildhood memories are typically
in some kind of nature.
And when they build their idealspaces and places, people tend
to really focus on the outdoor.
Spaces and places.
Even when we do a workshop onhousing, and we'll say, build
your own housing, they tend notto build the unit itself.
(45:39):
You know, so they won't, I don'tthink we've ever seen that where
someone's been like, Okay, well,here's my kitchen, here's my
living room, I've got my flatscreen TV.
Here's the rec room upstairs.
And here's the, you know, allthe amenities that are
advertised in new developmentsand cities, uh, barbecue area
and blah, blah, blah.
(46:00):
No one ever really builds that.
They build what's outside.
They build what
Kelly Hickler (46:04):
they
John Kamp (46:04):
can walk to where they can hang out, who they can
hang out with.
That kind of thing.
That's really what people want.
Kelly Hickler (46:12):
That's so interesting.
So, when is this plan, uh, this,uh, it's an active
transportation plan.
It's in the works still.
It's not completed yet.
John Kamp (46:25):
Yep.
Kelly Hickler (46:26):
Okay.
Do you know about what theschedule is when it will be
completed?
John Kamp (46:31):
Yeah, so there are going to be two open houses
coming up.
We're going to, they're going tobe presenting the prime
contractor Fairfax is going tobe presenting the preliminary
findings outcomes.
So one's going to be in Davis.
Don't quote me on where theother one's going to be.
I'm not really sure.
And then what they'll be doingis creating the actual plan.
(46:52):
So identifying Priority areas ineach of these towns for
improvements for bike padfacilities for road diets
whatever it is,
Kelly Hickler (47:03):
yeah, of
John Kamp (47:04):
course, on a regional level, what the opportunities
are for rails to trails projectsfor connecting these towns by
walking and biking paths.
And then there'll be anotherround of sharing, what they've
come up with.
And then once they have thatfinalized, so this is actually a
(47:24):
design, so it's an engagementand design process, so they are
going to do some of the designwork.
That will be in the actual plan,some design work.
And then with that in place,they'll be able to apply, these
towns will be able to apply forfunding.
These, projects actually happen.
(47:45):
So that's the good thing aboutthis.
It's not just a policy documentthat says, okay, we, we engage
these people.
Here's what we heard and here'swhat we think would be great to
see.
It's that plus design.
And then with all that in place,then it's much more possible to
(48:07):
apply for federal funding orother dollars to make these
projects actually happen.
Cause we'll actually have adesign that's in place.
That's cool.
So you don't feel like.
This project is this thing wherewe went and we engaged these
people and they said all sortsof cool things but you don't
really know where it's going togo.
(48:29):
Yeah.
In this case it's much morelikely that a lot of these ideas
or some of these ideas willactually see the light of day
and be translated into physicalchanges in people's lives and in
these towns.
Kelly Hickler (48:42):
Yeah, that's really exciting.
I'll look forward to seeing whatcomes out of this.
Maybe we'll have to have afollow up and whatever it is, a
year, the outcome.
Cool.
All right.
If our listeners want to followyou or reach out to you to ask
questions or just You know,follow along with what you guys
(49:06):
are doing, where should they dothat?
John Kamp (49:09):
Well, they can go to our website.
So www.
placeit.
org and www.
prairieform.
com.
There's social media.
So James T.
Rojas is his handle and mycamper pants, which I'm kind of
stuck with.
I don't know if I can handlethem, but I feel like if I
(49:31):
change it, then I have to changeso many things.
Kelly Hickler (49:34):
No, do not change that.
That is an amazing name.
Never change that.
John Kamp (49:39):
Thank you.
See, it's supposed to, I mean,it's the, you know, kind of
playful, goofy, lightheartedaspect of our work shining
through.
And that's always a recurringtheme with what we do.
We're trying to take theserious, it's serious play,
right?
So we're taking the seriousnesslevel down a little bit.
Yeah.
(49:59):
But the outcomes are meaningfuland real and can really change
people's lives for the better.
Kelly Hickler (50:05):
Yeah, perfect.
And then I'll do a plug for yourbook too.
You guys have a book.
John Kamp (50:11):
We do.
Dream Play Build.
It's out on Island Press.
The discount code isPLACETALLCAPS and so if you
order it directly off the IslandPress website.
There's a little field where youcan put in the discount code.
So if you put in place it you'llget a Oh, I can't remember what
the discount is, but it's a atleast 10 I think
Kelly Hickler (50:32):
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
And I've read your book.
So, if anyone wants to reallynerd out on the, some of the
psychology behind all this,that's all in the book.
All right.
Well, thank you, John and Jamesso much for being on our
fireside chats podcasts.
(50:54):
And it was lovely speaking withyou and.
Yeah.
We'll see you maybe in a year orso for the follow up.
John Kamp (51:04):
Yeah.
Kelly Hickler (51:04):
Yeah.
John Kamp (51:06):
Hopefully sooner, but yeah, thanks for having us.
It's been really fun.
Yeah.
Kelly Hickler (51:10):
All right.
Take care.
John Kamp (51:12):
All right.
You too.
Hi everyone.
Welcome to fireside chatsbrought to you by engaging
cities.
I'm Hickler, the communitymanager of engaging cities and
the founder of innovationstudio.
Each episode we talk to thepeople behind the plans and
learn about how communityengagement helped to strengthen
(00:34):
and bolster that plan.
So on today's episode we havethe pleasure of talking to James
Rojas.
And John Camp, who I feel likeneed almost no introduction.
You guys are like celebritiesbasically in the city planning,
community engagement world.
And I feel like no matter whereI go what state I'm in, what
(00:58):
country I'm in, what conferenceI go to, I run into someone who
knows you, who's worked withyou, At least knows of your
work.
So congratulations on makingsuch an impact in the world.
John Kamp (01:13):
But
Kelly Hickler (01:16):
just for some of our listeners who maybe have
been living under a rock and arenot familiar with you, maybe
give yourselves a littleintroduction and talk about the
work it is that you do.
James Rojas (01:30):
Hey, my name is James Rojas and I'm a.
City planner, an artist, and Iuse art making and storytelling
as a way to get people engagedin planning.
And it all began when I workedat Alley Metro working on
transportation plans for theeast side.
And we would have meetings with40 Latinos in the room.
And all they would do is nodtheir head.
Then you get some kind of personthat speaks really loud about
(01:53):
what they wanted to see.
So it wasn't really a goodsituation, but at the same time,
it opened up an art gallery indowntown Los Angeles.
I work with artists and Ithought, how could we as
planners.
engage people the same wayartists do, through their
senses, through creativity andjoy.
They started bringing thatprocess into the planning
process, which kind of startedthe whole kind of placid kind of
(02:16):
idea about sensory basedplanning.
John Kamp (02:20):
I'm Doug Kapp.
I'm a landscape and urbandesigner licensed landscape
contractor in the state ofCalifornia, facilitator with
Prairie Farm.
So I'm Prairie Farm Jamesplacid.
We do about 80 percent of ourwork together.
I started Prairie Farm in 2008.
It's definitely evolved overtime.
I think the biggest thing thatI've tried to do is expand the
(02:42):
scope and reach of the work sothat we're engaging more people
in the process.
So it started as more of a topdown, I'm the designer, I do
everything.
And now a lot of what we do isengage people through their
hands and senses and at leastpart of a creation of.
Spaces and places exploration ofspaces and places so that we're
(03:04):
bringing in a broader crosssection of folks into the fold.
So it's not just.
Kind of the chosen few who aredesigning and building things,
but we're bringing in.
A diverse array of folks intothe process.
Kelly Hickler (03:18):
Yeah, I love it.
And as a participant in yourprocess before, I absolutely
love it.
It's so much fun.
And if the listeners are notfamiliar with your place it
method, it's basically takingfound objects and using them to
represent whatever you want themto be.
(03:42):
And you start with recreating achildhood memory, right?
And then getting people intothat creative space and then
using that method to design.
Whatever it is that you'retalking about a corridor or
neighborhood or whatnot.
And it's just, it's so inviting.
(04:03):
It's so easy for anyone to do.
And it's really fun.
John Kamp (04:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We tried to remove barriers tothe process.
Yeah, absolutely.
James Rojas (04:15):
And also the whole idea is to really have people
talk about the relationshipbetween their bodies and land
and other people.
Absolutely.
rather than the knowledge youhave about a map or a place.
That's very transactional.
Kelly Hickler (04:28):
How
James Rojas (04:29):
your body relates to a space is really critical to
how you understand the city or aplace.
Kelly Hickler (04:35):
Yeah, I love that.
It's not about how much youknow.
John Kamp (04:41):
Yeah, well, kind of how much you know on a rational
level.
I think that's what it is,right?
We don't place a premium onanyone's we don't, we don't say
one person's favorite childhoodmemory is better than another's.
We also don't, expect people tounderstand how to read a map.
For example, these kinds of likeclassic skills that you're
(05:02):
supposed to have as a planner ordesigner, designing at a scale
is another thing that we don'trequire
Kelly Hickler (05:09):
people to
John Kamp (05:09):
do, even though that's something that's very.
You know, that's like what youget trained to do in planning
school design school not so muchplanning school But definitely
in design school To work at ascale.
So we remove a lot of thosethings so that people cause
those are barriers really toentry process.
Then people can be creative in away that they couldn't
(05:30):
otherwise.
And once you introduce scale toeveryday folks and you ask them
to be creative and work at ascale they freeze up generally.
Kelly Hickler (05:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do like even professionals do.
John Kamp (05:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we just did a weekendlong studio with students.
At WashU and St.
Louis this past fall and theseare design students, so they're
they were all I think at leastsecond years so, they're they'd
already been steeped in thewhole process and done as far as
(06:05):
The design, the kind ofconventional design process.
We have them actually used fortheir models.
So they built a two scale modelwithin the materials they used
for their interventions in, itwas an urban design studio and
their interventions in thesespaces and places.
We have them use unconventionalmaterials.
We have them use all the kind ofmaterials they normally use like
(06:26):
pipe cleaners, air rollers, youname it.
We gave them free license to cutthem up and manipulate them and
change them and alter them, butat a scale.
So they still had to work atthat scale.
But what they said is that toyour point about how scale can
really cause people to freezeup, they said, at the very
least, this wasn't staring at ablank white screen and thinking,
(06:49):
Oh God, I have to like, fillthis with something and this
kind of pressure to be perfectright off the bat.
So we take that perfection.
The premium of perfection out ofit.
And they said, I just felt somuch freer to explore ideas and
then the outcomes end up being alot more playful in the process.
(07:11):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, at the end of the day,that's what we want, with this
park project we're doing inOakland.
There is a definitely the phaseone of it's done and there is an
element of playfulness and joythat I think you see in the
space already and I think thatcomes about because of the
methods that we use because theyare rooted in playfulness and
(07:33):
enjoy.
Kelly Hickler (07:34):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Well, when that project's done,we'll have to have you back on
the podcast to talk about thatone.
But today I think you guys aregoing to talk about some work
you did in Yolo County.
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
John Kamp (07:51):
So for folks who don't know, Yolo County is West
of Sacramento and kind of northand a little bit south.
So it doesn't include WestSacramento itself, but then
Davis is in Yolo County.
Some incorporated towns, but alot of unincorporated towns are
in Yolo County.
So it's a pretty rural
James Rojas (08:11):
agriculture,
John Kamp (08:12):
agricultural County.
And this project is looking atactive transportation.
So walking, rolling, biking,scooting.
Et cetera in these towns and howwe can improve walking and
rolling in these towns and alsoimprove the connections between
and among these towns.
Kelly Hickler (08:33):
Okay.
James Rojas (08:35):
Yeah, so we were hired to do a community outreach
for these small, unincorporatedtowns in Yolo County, and we did
7 or 8 workshops, and it's beenreally fascinating because
you're going to small towns andmaybe.
Don't even have a don't evenhave a traffic signal.
Kelly Hickler (08:53):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
James Rojas (08:55):
You know, it's very rare to see a town this rural in
California, but there are townslike this up northern in Yolo
County, you have tickets righton the streets, and stopping
traffic and, windows windowcorner market.
So it's, so we were tasked to docommunity engagement here and,
fly with community members,they've probably never been to
(09:16):
be a meeting at all.
And it's a public meeting, so wehad workshops in their local
town halls, that they have inthese small towns that bring
people together and really startto build that capacity to
understand what their needs areand who they are and what they
value and how we can kind ofmove forward.
We're first, for people that arefirst time, a lot of them were
(09:36):
Spanish speaking.
It was a really interestingprocess.
Kelly Hickler (09:40):
Okay.
Did you, were there translatorsthere to help out?
John Kamp (09:46):
Sometimes.
It depends on the group thatshows up at the meeting.
So sometimes we had Folks whoare Spanish only.
So you would, you know, I speakboth Spanish and English, so
I'll translate sometimes, orthere are other people on the
consultant side or in the primecontractor, prime fair and
(10:07):
pierce.
Who speaks Spanish, so we canjust do kind of on the spot
translation, so it just depends.
Yeah, there's
James Rojas (10:16):
no formal PowerPoint, so it's really
simple.
Kelly Hickler (10:19):
Yeah, right.
Okay, got you.
So you said there was a seriesof eight workshops?
John Kamp (10:25):
Yeah.
So we did a work.
Well, one is a pop up.
So we did a pop up event at apublic health fair, and then the
rest were workshops inunincorporated towns in Yolo
County.
So we did a model buildingworkshop at each one.
We had people build their firstmemory of a mobility experience.
And then we have them work inteams to our groups to build
(10:46):
their ideal, whatever the townis that we were.
That we were working in, so,build your ideal Yolo, for
example, there's a town in YoloCounty called Yolo and we had
them build their ideal Yolo forwalking and biking.
But then also thinking about theconnections, like I said
earlier, the connection between.
The town itself and then theother towns in the county.
(11:09):
How to get to those on foot oron bike or some other form of
non motorized transportation.
Kelly Hickler (11:17):
Okay, got you.
What's something that you thinkwent really well throughout the
whole process?
Whether is it one particularthing at one workshop or maybe
something across all theworkshops?
James Rojas (11:32):
I think one of the things that worked well is that.
We got people to engage in theprocess by using their hands and
talking about their firstmobility experience and who we
attract to is probably adifferent demographics.
Like the fact last time wemeeting two nights ago, we're
all, it was all women.
And it's just two girls, 11 and12 kind of stole the show.
John Kamp (11:54):
Yeah.
James Rojas (11:54):
They had the prettiest model, the best ideas,
cause in fact you know, Anyway,they weren't even planning on
coming to the meeting, but theywere riding a bike outside and
told them we have Pandusainside.
They came in for the fun doodlestep instead of the planning.
And they were the first timeever doing anything like this.
And they were really interestedin hearing their ideas and
stories.
(12:15):
And how they can conceptualizeand build models with their
material to talk about what theywant to see in their community.
And I think, so this kind of,the process really went well in
attracting people and engagingespecially Latinos in these
communities.
But otherwise, kind of not go toa meeting, or be bored at the
meeting.
Kelly Hickler (12:35):
Right.
James Rojas (12:37):
And then plus, people can bring their kids.
A lot of kids and a lot offamilies that get attended to
workshops.
Which is really nice.
Kelly Hickler (12:45):
Yeah, I think what's nice about your method is
that I've been to workshopsbefore or even facilitated
workshops where kids arewelcome, but there's like, Oh,
there's a separate kids areaover there where the kids go
color or something over there,but with your method, the kids
can participate in the meetingtoo.
(13:06):
That's really unique.
James Rojas (13:08):
Yeah.
And it's good to see, parentsand kids build together.
Kelly Hickler (13:11):
Yeah.
James Rojas (13:12):
Each other.
What I do with the kids arethinking.
And.
Have no idea where their parentscome from, what their memories
are.
So it's really good to have thatkind of bond.
Kelly Hickler (13:21):
Oh, yeah.
Oh I really like that.
John Kamp (13:23):
I think one of the most valuable things that's come
out of this process is just thatit become very clear.
By way of the process thatpeople want to walk and bike in
small towns too.
I think there's this.
Misconception that walking andbiking are these things that
urbanites do and want to do andit's, of course we have urban
(13:46):
neighborhoods in the countrythat are extremely expensive
because people do want to walkand bike and so they want to buy
or own these neighborhoods wherethey can walk and bike because
these are in short supply in theUnited States, unfortunately.
But the same can be said offolks in small towns.
They don't want to just driveeverywhere.
And I think that's a bigcomplaint that we've heard.
(14:08):
And some of the people havebuilt their models is towns
where they can walk her bike toa coffee shop, or they can walk
her back to the post office.
So they can walk her bike to seetheir friends.
Or they can walk or bike or rollor scoop to the next town over
or two towns over, if they wantto make a day of it, they could
(14:31):
do that.
So I think that's been one ofthe real values of doing this
project through this process,because If we had done this just
by way of having people talk andwe had said, what are you, how
do you want to make your town orwalk, wall and bike?
Invariably they would havefocused on dangers, right?
They wouldn't just focus on,well, here's this area that's
(14:51):
dangerous.
Okay.
That's valid.
That's important.
But we also want to hear fromthem, how the bigger ideas,
right?
What about?
Okay, so we know that thisintersection is a problem and
that's important to know.
But what about some other partsof the town where you just want
to.
Think big, and you want to beable to have an opportunity to
walk and bike and.
(15:13):
Explore and do all these otherthings, and those are the kinds
of things that come out of theseworkshops.
Some people work for their handsversus just talking,
Kelly Hickler (15:20):
right?
James Rojas (15:22):
Yeah, don't you realize that these people here
are very self reliant.
If they wanted to walk to natureor to socialize,
John Kamp (15:30):
but
James Rojas (15:30):
it wasn't really like walking to and from like in
city, we walked in places.
John Kamp (15:35):
Mm
James Rojas (15:35):
hmm.
We could have things to walk to,but here it's more soft for
light, and so they're walking ismore based on this nature and
socializing and not walking toall these stores or walking to
these events because they don'thave them there, but they walk
for a different kind of reasons.
John Kamp (15:52):
But they want that.
I will say that they want that.
They said they've said that overand over again.
They want to be able to walk to.
You know, like in done again,for example, they wanted to be
able to walk or bike to the postoffice and they wanted to walk
or bike to the whole commercialarea.
Yeah, I think they want
James Rojas (16:10):
both was very limited because they don't have
a lot of things to walk.
It's not like living in downtownLA or something, we can walk to
other places.
Kelly Hickler (16:18):
Right, yeah, it's more for recreation.
Yeah,
James Rojas (16:21):
socializing.
Kelly Hickler (16:22):
Yeah, okay, cool.
So when people built theirmodels, how do you record their
ideas?
What
John Kamp (16:32):
we do is we'll, once some, everyone's built their
models, we have a flip chart upfront.
It's.
In the room or somewhere whereeveryone can see it.
And then we'll just have each,we'll just go from person to
person and have them give ustheir name, the place of their
memory, and then what the memoryis.
And then we just write it downor paraphrase it.
(16:54):
And then after that, we havepeople pull up the recurring
themes of the memories.
So if we didn't do that, itwould be a, an activity that was
kind of half finished becausegreat.
Okay.
Everyone shares their memory.
But we're not really seeing whatwe all have in common.
And part of what we're trying todo with these workshops is build
(17:14):
bridges and bring peopletogether who might see
themselves as at your worst caseadversaries.
But the best case, just asstrangers or people who seem
different from each other.
So in this case, when we havepeople football at the recreate
themes, they can start to reallysee, Oh, okay.
We do have a lot in common andmemory.
(17:37):
Have a lot in common.
And then when they do the secondactivity, we do something very
similar.
We just write down so they'llpresent what they've built and
we'll write down a abbreviatedversion of what they've built.
We have also started adding,especially for this project in
particular, we started Givingthem post it notes.
(18:00):
So once they're done withbuilding, you have them label
all the different parts of theirmodels.
Kelly Hickler (18:07):
Okay.
John Kamp (18:07):
Did this in part because some of the, what they
were talking about was veryplace specific.
So it was very much like, okay,this is this highway, or this is
this road, or this is thisintersection.
And because we did so manymeetings, we needed to be able
to keep track of all that.
And I just felt like, okay, I'mnot going to be able to remember
(18:28):
that this model, this part ofthis model represents the street
or whatever.
So we gave them post it notesand then, and they write down
all their ideas, stick them nextto what they've built.
And then I'll just take apicture at the end so that I
have it.
And then we can go back andreference the models and then
the particular.
spots and locations in themodels if people have filled
(18:50):
those.
Kelly Hickler (18:51):
Okay.
John Kamp (18:53):
And then we have them pull out the recurring themes of
those models too.
And those themes really serve ascore values for the project
moving forward, core values forthe community so they can
recognize oh, we're on the samepage in a lot of ways in terms
of what we want for, Ourcommunity, but they also serve
(19:16):
as core values that can thenguide the project as it moves
forward and becomes moved moreinto the design phase and
looking at actual designs forthese spaces and places in these
towns.
Kelly Hickler (19:31):
Yeah.
That's really neat how thosethemes or core values kind of
naturally emerged through theprocess.
And that was gonna be my nextquestion, was how you
incorporate that feedback intothe plan.
So it sounds like those corethemes.
Or core values that emerge kindof end up serving as the basis
(19:56):
for the plan.
John Kamp (19:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, they're really the guidingprinciples of the plan.
They could be the guidingprinciples of, say, the park
project that we're doing inOakland.
So they can be these coreguiding principles for the
design process.
But the other thing too is that,there's this whole Kind of
current track, but of thisproject where there's a lot of
(20:20):
data analysis.
So, pedestrian.
Accidents between cars andbikes, cars and pedestrians.
Kind of hotspot areas,problematic areas in these
towns.
And there are also a lot of pastplans and current plans that
have identified areas forimprovement.
We're meshing and merging whatcomes out of these workshops
(20:44):
with all of those.
And then we can have for eachtown, we can have a set of
priority areas for, sayintersection that needs some
serious road diets and trafficcalming to, opportunities for
some kind of trail, maybe arails to trails project that
(21:07):
connects.
One part of the town to anotheror that town to another town.
So that's another way in whichthis More informal engagement is
emerging with this kind of moreformal.
Kelly Hickler (21:23):
Yeah,
James Rojas (21:25):
those of you want to see how for the residents,
you want them to see how theirpersonal history and the stories
are embedded in this plan.
John Kamp (21:33):
Hmm.
James Rojas (21:34):
It's not just, it's because it starts with their
stories, their memory, theplaces.
That drives the process forwardand now they're, this is meshed
into this plan where people comefrom all over.
Where they come from and thesestories become this kind of
collective basis for thisprocess.
So they see themselves in thisplan.
(21:56):
Not just me.
You're saying I'm designing thebikeway.
But here it's kind of like, youdon't know your story from
Mexico or from SouthernCalifornia or from wherever you
come from.
Kelly Hickler (22:07):
Yeah.
James Rojas (22:08):
Kind of moving its way into this plan.
Kelly Hickler (22:11):
Yeah, it really personalizes the plan instead of
just this dry, sterile,technical document.
Now it has stories and historyto it.
That's really cool.
Was there anything that didn'tgo as planned or didn't work as
well as you would hope thatmaybe you would change next
(22:31):
time?
James Rojas (22:34):
If the weather we were working in a Delta.
And it was a really wet, reallyheavy rain.
So nobody came to the meeting.
Kelly Hickler (22:44):
Oh, you
James Rojas (22:46):
know, then you realize it's a book in the
Delta.
It's this kind of thing.
Thank Holland, these levees andwater and land.
So it's really kind of dangerousplace to drive.
But that was one thing, but alot, I think.
A lot of the meetings werereally, they felt really,
because they don't have peoplethat don't necessarily go to
(23:07):
meetings, it felt kind ofspontaneous, it's kind of
spontaneous flair around it.
Kelly Hickler (23:12):
And,
James Rojas (23:12):
We're just bringing people off the street,
literally, which is fine, whichis great, but it's just really,
but you realize that these are,you attracted people who care
about their communities tomeetings, but it was in this
really loose kind of way.
I don't know, and I don't knowif it can make it tighter.
I don't know if you could haveRSVP or something.
John Kamp (23:34):
Yeah, turnout is a challenge, but these are really
small places, so it's achallenge to get people to turn
out to a meeting in, say, somecity in Southern California,
which has a lot of people, andthen Southern California itself
has a ton of people.
Kelly Hickler (23:51):
Right.
John Kamp (23:52):
So that can be a challenge.
I think in some ways it can be achallenge for other reasons
because people are oversaturatedwith activities and there's the
traffic issue and that kind ofthing.
But, I think in general, it canjust be a challenge to get
people to come to meetings.
So in this case, it was kind ofthe opposite where, they're
very, these towns are tiny.
(24:12):
So if we get eight people, To ameeting.
That's good turnout.
Cause these towns are like 200people.
Kelly Hickler (24:23):
That's really good percentage.
John Kamp (24:25):
Yeah.
I'd say, if you're thinkingabout like a survey and results
of a survey, like statisticallysignificant.
So in this case, eight people isstatistically significant.
Kelly Hickler (24:38):
That's a statistically valid or
representative sample.
John Kamp (24:41):
Yeah, I think so.
Anyways, so I, otherwise I feellike it's gone really well.
I think the thing that you'realways worried about, especially
transportation projects, is thatpeople are going to come in and
complain about parking.
You're going to take away theirparking and and that people are
(25:03):
going to complain about traffic,but because we're engaging
people in their hands and notthrough talking, they're really
not in that mindset.
They can't be, I mean, it, itreally does have to do with just
brain activity.
and fundamental psychology.
When you're working with yourhands, you're not firing up the
selfish part of your brain, theprefrontal cortex part of your
(25:24):
brain.
That's the part of your brainthat's fired up if you're given
your two minutes to speak infront of the group.
And the question is, what do youwant to see in your town to make
it more walkable and biteable?
That's Really when you setthings up, it's kind of a recipe
for disaster because then peopleare in prefrontal cortex mode,
survival mode selfish mode.
(25:45):
So they're going to say thingslike, well, I just, I don't want
people to take away my parking.
And I, the traffic's bad hereand I don't want bike lanes and
all that stuff.
But then when you switch it andyou have people work with their
hands, They're not in thatselfish survival mode, they're
able to be aspirational, they'reable to be collaborative, and
they're able to be creative, andso then they're really focused
(26:08):
on what they actually want, liketheir dream for their community,
like, I would love to see this,I
Kelly Hickler (26:16):
would,
John Kamp (26:16):
That kind of thing, so then it's totally different,
so it's not, I don't want this.
Kelly Hickler (26:20):
Yes.
John Kamp (26:22):
I would love to see this.
This would be amazing if we hadthis.
Wouldn't our town beautiful andwonderful and wouldn't it be
incredible if we could bikefrom, Yolo to Dunnigan or,
whatever it's town from town totown.
Kelly Hickler (26:37):
Yes.
James Rojas (26:38):
And also by having people start up by building a
family travel memory.
You take away the whole idea ofownership, because as children,
we didn't own anything, we justplayed in space, and it was all
free form, all open, accessibleto us.
So people don't see propertyvalues here as being the, what
they're concerned about.
So now you take that for amoment, and now you're just
(27:01):
thinking about, in general,what's best for this town.
Not their own personal interest.
Kelly Hickler (27:07):
Oh yeah, that's fascinating.
You have a lot more, you have a
James Rojas (27:09):
lot more public, you have more of a utopian
spirit then.
Well, they don't own property, Ithink that's
John Kamp (27:14):
what you're trying to say.
James Rojas (27:14):
Well, I'm just saying that as kids, you don't
own property.
And people never talk about, Iown this, this, and this.
It's always like, it's time totreat, I picked flowers, I did
these things.
Right.
What they owned.
Kelly Hickler (27:27):
Right.
James Rojas (27:28):
And I think you want to just tell people, you
want to put people in thatmindset where ownership isn't
what you're here for.
Property values.
Kelly Hickler (27:36):
Right.
Yeah.
It takes you out of that selfinterested mode into more of a
community like other centered,not self centered.
John Kamp (27:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I do think.
I will say, kids do go through aphase where they're like, this
is mine, right?
Yes That's like I feel likethat's part of child development
is that kids go through a phasewhere like this is mine This is
my house.
This is my whatever You know,even in our workshops when we
(28:11):
have kids in our workshops Theynever say stuff like that,
right?
They're never in that, even ifthey are in that phase in their
lives where they're thinking,mine, mine, mine don't do that
in the workshops.
And I think again, it just hasto do with brain activity.
And when you're working withyour hands and you're working
with your hands with otherpeople, they tend to, kids tend
(28:33):
to really calm down and they areable to make room for other
people's, Ideas and adults inthe same way, so we get the
question all the time about ouraudience and the people will
say, well, you guys must workwith kids a lot.
And actually that's not thecase.
Maybe 10 percent of our work iswith kids specifically.
(28:56):
The rest is with grownups.
And part of it is that we'retrying to get grownups to think
more like kids in that kind ofexpansive, curious way.
That kids are very naturally inthat way, and that we become
less and less of as we getolder, or we tend to become less
(29:17):
curious and less open.
I mean, that's a really terriblething I think about getting
older.
In some ways, you are, you knowmore, you might be more sure of
certain things.
Mm-Hmm, But you also become morerigid.
Kelly Hickler (29:32):
Oh, yeah, we're
John Kamp (29:33):
trying to get people to it's like a record with
grooves in it.
We're trying to get people tobreak out of those grooves in
that record.
James Rojas (29:45):
And also to revisit their relationship to land.
I tell people, Favorite childmemory is probably the only time
in your life where you had thisreally closed relationship to
the landscape.
You're playing with mud, you'reeating mud, you're touching mud,
you're smelling of flower.
As adults we move ourselves fromthis everyday experience of
being in the land.
John Kamp (30:05):
Mm-Hmm.
James Rojas (30:06):
So you wanna remind people of how important land is
to your psychology, because whenyou're in a car, you're on the
landscape, not in the landscape.
Kelly Hickler (30:14):
Oh
James Rojas (30:15):
yeah,
Kelly Hickler (30:16):
that's good.
Oh, that's a good distinction.
I'm going to remember thatyou're on the landscape, not in
the landscape.
I feel like that even sometimesriding a bike you know, and you
get going pretty fast, it's likethe same thing where
everything's just going by andyou're not really experiencing
it.
So it's like nothing can replacewalking walking through a town,
(30:41):
through a place.
Yeah.
All right.
Is there any words of advicethat you would share with
someone who is undertaking asimilar project?
John Kamp (30:54):
Start with the hands and the senses.
That's the key at the end of theday.
It doesn't matter how great yourpresentation is that you put
together at the beginning andexplaining the projects.
talking about what you wantpeople to understand.
If you don't engage peoplethrough their hands and their
senses, they are going toultimately end up in that
(31:16):
prefrontal cortex survival modein that community setting.
And so they're going to end upsaying the same things that
we've heard over and over, youknow, parking, less traffic.
no density, no growth.
So that's it.
It's as simple as that.
We're biased of course, but wealso see the real results and
(31:40):
the radical change in outcomeswhen you engage with their hands
and senses and not throughlanguage.
I think there's a lot ofengagement going on right now
that's well meaning, but that'sjust so focused on language.
And if you engage people throughlanguage, they're not going to
be able to be creative.
And a lot of times they'llfreeze up even.
(32:02):
We actually don't even setground rules for our meetings.
We never say, you must use thesewords.
Don't use these words.
You need to be a nice person andyou need to be with other
people.
We never do that because whenpeople work with their hands,
their best selves come out.
James Rojas (32:18):
We never do introductions because we want
people, introduce people to eachother through their childhood
memories, not about theirprofessional status.
Yeah, so the activity would beintroductions.
I think also just approach theseevents like a party.
It's a social event.
You have a really goodopportunity to bring people
together and be happy andjoyful.
(32:39):
You want to leave with that.
So they'll come back for moremeetings,
Kelly Hickler (32:44):
more planning.
Yeah.
James Rojas (32:45):
We don't go to meetings in our neighborhood
because they're always veryargumentative.
And why do you want to spend anhour, why do you want to spend
two hours with people arguing?
You know, like, like myneighbors, but I hate the
meetings we have.
Kelly Hickler (33:00):
Yeah.
I think I wonder how manyplanners go to meetings?
Their own meeting, like theirown meetings in their own town,
probably not very many, causethey're usually boring or yeah,
argumentative controversial.
It's like, uh, no, I don't evenwant to go to my own meeting in
(33:22):
my own town.
Yeah.
John Kamp (33:23):
Yeah.
We've literally been to oneneighborhood meeting here and it
was so contentious and awful.
And, it was the textbook exampleof a precious few dominating the
entire meeting.
So who are these people whodominate the meeting?
There are people who aren'tafraid of conflict.
There are, they're not afraid ofpublic speaking.
(33:44):
So they're okay getting up infront of a group of people and
talking or yelling, right.
And, and that's a very, verysmall subset of the population.
Who could do that?
I don't think people realize howafraid most people are of public
speaking.
Kelly Hickler (34:03):
Oh God.
Yeah, I think that's like thenumber one fear or like it might
be number one or maybe it'snumber two after death.
I don't know.
It's really high up there forpeople's fears, public speaking.
John Kamp (34:18):
Yeah.
And we've created a whole systemof engagement and community
engagement around.
Public speaking.
And that's the very thing thatpeople, one of the things that
people are the most afraid ofacross the board.
If I, if we do a presentationand I ask the group, doesn't
matter where, doesn't matter theage.
(34:40):
If I ask the group who likespublic speaking, I'll get maybe
one hand or maybe a half hand,sort of, maybe if I have to, So,
our idea of democracy anddemocracy and action in this
country is really like theperson standing up in front of a
(35:01):
group and speaking their mind,it's like the guy in the soapbox
or the podium, or you're on astage and you're speaking your
mind, you're rallying the troopsand you're getting everyone all
excited.
But that, again, that's a veryparticular kind of person who is
okay with doing that and iscomfortable
Kelly Hickler (35:20):
with doing that.
John Kamp (35:21):
And then you add in, say, a language barrier as well.
So maybe your first language isin English and you're going to
be even less comfortable.
It could be, some people will becomfortable, but a lot of people
won't be, you know, somethingthat's not their first language
in front of a larger people.
And, a lot of this, again, withit comes back to psychology,
(35:43):
what I was saying earlier, youcan come up with the most,
Convincing polished presentationyou can possibly come up with
for, something about activetransportation or urban design
or walkable streets or whatever,but if you're engaging people
through language.
You're still going to be firingup a particular part of your
(36:04):
brain their brains, that's notthe creative aspirational part
of their brains.
And the same is true with publicspeaking.
We don't like public speakingbecause we don't like being
stared at.
That's really what it comes downto.
That's very primal.
It has to do with when we livedout in the wild.
And if something was staring atyou, it meant that it wanted to
(36:24):
kill you.
Kelly Hickler (36:25):
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
That's so true.
John Kamp (36:29):
Yeah.
So, you think about, like somenature show that you watched
where the predator is scanningthe, the open field or meadow or
Savannah or whatever it is fortheir prey and like this sort of
locking eyes onto the prey,right.
And then after The prey are, youknow, a mountain lion and in the
(36:51):
Angeles National Forest inSouthern California, right?
I mean, this is, that's whathappens.
They lock eyes on the prey.
And so this is what we'refeeling in a very primal way.
When we're up in front of agroup of people, we don't know
that, right?
Unless you know aboutpsychology, you know about this,
you know that you're not like,Oh crap, all these people are
staring at me.
(37:11):
I feel like they want to killme.
But that is what you'reessentially what's happening.
There are all these people eyeson you and it's stirring up that
primal fear of like, oh crap.
Kelly Hickler (37:22):
Yeah, I've heard too that it has to do with
people are worried about gettingcast out of the group.
That if you say something wrongthat you're going to be,
expelled from the group.
Is that?
Part of it too.
John Kamp (37:42):
Yeah, because you're not getting the immediate
response from people when you'respeaking up in public, right?
It's not a conversation.
You're not getting even like thefacial cues that you will get in
a conver most conversations.
You know, so if you think aboutyou yourself sitting in an
audience listening to someonetalk, it's not like at every
(38:06):
moment.
of the presentation you'renodding your head and you're
smiling and you're raising youreyebrows or you know you're
making out you just you might dothat a little bit but not that
much so when you're up in frontof a group of people you're not
going to get all the cues thatwe give each other when we're in
a conversation that make youthat make the other person feel
(38:26):
comfortable.
So smiling, for example, issomething that we might do in
response to a joke.
But a lot of times we're smilingbecause we're giving people,
that person we're talking to,this sense that they're being
heard and that you'recomfortable and that you hear
them and oh yeah, I know whatyou're talking about, right?
(38:48):
And you don't necessarily getthat when you're speaking up in
front of a group of people.
So absolutely, and it can stirup these fears of, oh crap,
these people must really notlike what I'm saying, and
they're gonna come after me atpitchforks.
Kelly Hickler (39:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I've been in meetings beforewhere the loudest voices or the
people who are comfortablespeaking up, you have one
opinion and there's people inthe audience who come up to me
afterwards.
(39:26):
and say, well, you know, wedon't agree.
There's actually a lot of ushere who don't agree with that.
We're just not comfortablegetting up and speaking in front
of, I mean, I've been inmeetings with 500 people, like
I'm intimidated speaking infront of 500 people.
(39:47):
So, um, I can't imagine someonewho is not a professional who
doesn't talk in front of peopleprofessionally what they're
going to stand up in front of500 people and have a different
opinion, or even if they're theminority opinion and but they
have a different perspective,are you going to be the one to
(40:10):
put yourself out there and gowell, actually, You know, I
think this, no, that's, that'sterrifying for people to do.
John Kamp (40:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, taking it back to theworkshops we do, a big part of
what we're doing is taking thatfear out of the process.
So there is no pressure for youto stand up in front of a group
and speak.
The eyes are going to actuallybe on the model.
So when you present, people aregoing to be looking at your
model.
(40:40):
Right.
So that takes a lot of thepressure off.
And then it's like we weresaying earlier, no memory is
better than another memory.
So it's not, some battle of thewills or some battle of might
and stronger.
And then when people worktogether in teams to build an
(41:01):
ideal space or place, they'reworking with their hands.
They're not hashing it outthrough language and.
A lot of times when people passthings out through language,
they tend to push people's ideasout of the way, right?
Yes, but, I don't know.
Yes,
Kelly Hickler (41:17):
but.
John Kamp (41:18):
Yes, but.
There's a lot of yes, but, andthere's a sort of, my idea is
best and I need to get everyoneelse to realize that it is best,
right?
Whereas when you build an idealspace or place, You literally
make room for other people'sideas.
You physically are making roomfor other people's ideas.
(41:41):
You can see in the model thatthere is actually room that it's
possible to have all thesedifferent ideas.
Within the same space.
Kelly Hickler (41:53):
That's so cool.
Do you have from these workshopsthat you did in Yolo County, do
you have any particular momentsor things that really stand out
to you that are your favoritepart of it?
James Rojas (42:10):
I think for us, it was really meeting the people
that care, meaning the peoplethat really want to drive change
in these communities, It bringsthem out, and they come in and,
they become part of the processthat you begin to see, people
who care and how you can reallynurture that group of people to
really move forward in thisplan.
John Kamp (42:29):
I think one of the coolest things was just to be
able to go to these towns.
These are overlooked places.
They're very small.
I think most people who gothrough Yolo County go through
on one of the freeways and theydon't ever get off the freeway
to actually go into these townsand they have a lot of history
(42:53):
in them.
There are beautiful historicchurches, the town of Yolo has a
brand new library in the centerof town with this incredible
kind of plaza.
It's really good.
Gathering meeting area aroundit, but it looks like a house
like they built it and kind ofarts and crafts craftsman
Bungalow style so it does justlook like this beautiful house,
(43:16):
but it's a public space It's alibrary and everything around
it's public But then the townhas all these chickens and
roosters that just roam freelyaround the town So you're you
know, we're in the middle ofdoing our workshop and out just
out the window.
You can see these casing aroundthe perimeter of the library.
(43:37):
So that for me has been one ofthe funnest parts is just to be
able to actually visit thesetowns and meet the people who
live in these towns.
Is it a big surprise that peoplewant to walk and bike?
In these towns it shouldn't bebut maybe it is a little bit I
think when you live in a cityYou know you have these ideas
(43:57):
about what people want indifferent places So they must
want this here.
They must want this there youlive in a small town.
You must just want to driveeverywhere, but that's not true
that's totally not true at allpeople want the same things and
it's a recreate theme of so muchof the work We do is that We see
that across the border, acrossthe country, in different size
(44:21):
places, different demographic,with different demographics,
people want very similar things.
They want to be able to walk,they want to be able to have
places and spaces for gatheringthey want opportunities for
exploration, discovery, theywant to be with their families,
with friends, they want nature,they want a lot of nature, want
(44:45):
trees and that to me is one ofthe most striking things because
we were making less and less.
Nature in some ways, just interms of how we're developing in
this country and how sprawlingeverything is outside of the
center cities, but people wantmore nature.
(45:06):
They don't want less of it forsure.
Kelly Hickler (45:09):
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say
they want less.
open space or less nature.
John Kamp (45:16):
Right.
It's, it's never happened.
I mean, the people's favoritechildhood memories are typically
in some kind of nature.
And when they build their idealspaces and places, people tend
to really focus on the outdoor.
Spaces and places.
Even when we do a workshop onhousing, and we'll say, build
your own housing, they tend notto build the unit itself.
(45:39):
You know, so they won't, I don'tthink we've ever seen that where
someone's been like, Okay, well,here's my kitchen, here's my
living room, I've got my flatscreen TV.
Here's the rec room upstairs.
And here's the, you know, allthe amenities that are
advertised in new developmentsand cities, uh, barbecue area
and blah, blah, blah.
(46:00):
No one ever really builds that.
They build what's outside.
They build what
Kelly Hickler (46:04):
they
John Kamp (46:04):
can walk to where they can hang out, who they can
hang out with.
That kind of thing.
That's really what people want.
Kelly Hickler (46:12):
That's so interesting.
So, when is this plan, uh, this,uh, it's an active
transportation plan.
It's in the works still.
It's not completed yet.
John Kamp (46:25):
Yep.
Kelly Hickler (46:26):
Okay.
Do you know about what theschedule is when it will be
completed?
John Kamp (46:31):
Yeah, so there are going to be two open houses
coming up.
We're going to, they're going tobe presenting the prime
contractor Fairfax is going tobe presenting the preliminary
findings outcomes.
So one's going to be in Davis.
Don't quote me on where theother one's going to be.
I'm not really sure.
And then what they'll be doingis creating the actual plan.
(46:52):
So identifying Priority areas ineach of these towns for
improvements for bike padfacilities for road diets
whatever it is,
Kelly Hickler (47:03):
yeah, of
John Kamp (47:04):
course, on a regional level, what the opportunities
are for rails to trails projectsfor connecting these towns by
walking and biking paths.
And then there'll be anotherround of sharing, what they've
come up with.
And then once they have thatfinalized, so this is actually a
(47:24):
design, so it's an engagementand design process, so they are
going to do some of the designwork.
That will be in the actual plan,some design work.
And then with that in place,they'll be able to apply, these
towns will be able to apply forfunding.
These, projects actually happen.
(47:45):
So that's the good thing aboutthis.
It's not just a policy documentthat says, okay, we, we engage
these people.
Here's what we heard and here'swhat we think would be great to
see.
It's that plus design.
And then with all that in place,then it's much more possible to
(48:07):
apply for federal funding orother dollars to make these
projects actually happen.
Cause we'll actually have adesign that's in place.
That's cool.
So you don't feel like.
This project is this thing wherewe went and we engaged these
people and they said all sortsof cool things but you don't
really know where it's going togo.
(48:29):
Yeah.
In this case it's much morelikely that a lot of these ideas
or some of these ideas willactually see the light of day
and be translated into physicalchanges in people's lives and in
these towns.
Kelly Hickler (48:42):
Yeah, that's really exciting.
I'll look forward to seeing whatcomes out of this.
Maybe we'll have to have afollow up and whatever it is, a
year, the outcome.
Cool.
All right.
If our listeners want to followyou or reach out to you to ask
questions or just You know,follow along with what you guys
(49:06):
are doing, where should they dothat?
John Kamp (49:09):
Well, they can go to our website.
So www.
placeit.
org and www.
prairieform.
com.
There's social media.
So James T.
Rojas is his handle and mycamper pants, which I'm kind of
stuck with.
I don't know if I can handlethem, but I feel like if I
(49:31):
change it, then I have to changeso many things.
Kelly Hickler (49:34):
No, do not change that.
That is an amazing name.
Never change that.
John Kamp (49:39):
Thank you.
See, it's supposed to, I mean,it's the, you know, kind of
playful, goofy, lightheartedaspect of our work shining
through.
And that's always a recurringtheme with what we do.
We're trying to take theserious, it's serious play,
right?
So we're taking the seriousnesslevel down a little bit.
Yeah.
(49:59):
But the outcomes are meaningfuland real and can really change
people's lives for the better.
Kelly Hickler (50:05):
Yeah, perfect.
And then I'll do a plug for yourbook too.
You guys have a book.
John Kamp (50:11):
We do.
Dream Play Build.
It's out on Island Press.
The discount code isPLACETALLCAPS and so if you
order it directly off the IslandPress website.
There's a little field where youcan put in the discount code.
So if you put in place it you'llget a Oh, I can't remember what
the discount is, but it's a atleast 10 I think
Kelly Hickler (50:32):
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
And I've read your book.
So, if anyone wants to reallynerd out on the, some of the
psychology behind all this,that's all in the book.
All right.
Well, thank you, John and Jamesso much for being on our
fireside chats podcasts.
(50:54):
And it was lovely speaking withyou and.
Yeah.
We'll see you maybe in a year orso for the follow up.
John Kamp (51:04):
Yeah.
Kelly Hickler (51:04):
Yeah.
John Kamp (51:06):
Hopefully sooner, but yeah, thanks for having us.
It's been really fun.
Yeah.
Kelly Hickler (51:10):
All right.
Take care.
John Kamp (51:12):
All right.
You too.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!