October 8, 2024 • 58 mins
In this episode, we're diving deep into the world of deconstruction and circular economy in San Antonio with our incredible guest, Stephanie Phillips. 🌿
San Antonio is leading the charge as the largest city in North America with a deconstruction ordinance, and it's revolutionizing how we think about waste and building materials. Instead of demolishing buildings and sending tons of valuable materials to landfills, deconstruction allows us to reclaim high-quality resources like old-growth wood, bricks, and more—turning waste into opportunities for reuse.
Stephanie shares her passion for embodied carbon, historic preservation, and how we can build communities around reuse rather than landfills. We also explore the challenges of scaling deconstruction, the environmental impact of traditional demolition, and the transformative power of rethinking waste in our city.
Together, we’ll learn how deconstruction creates more jobs, boosts the local economy, and contributes to a more sustainable future. If you're curious about how San Antonio is turning old into new, this episode is for you. Let’s explore how we can build a circular city, one deconstruction at a time.
RESOURCES:
⚫ Follow our guest, Stephanie Phillips, on LinkedIn here or check out her organization, Circular San Antonio
⚫ Learn more about Cory Ames and Ensemble Texas at EnsembleTexas.com
⚫ Follow Cory on Instagram @ensembletexas and YouTube @CoryAmesYT
⚫ Subscribe to the Ensemble Texas Newsletter for stories, guides, and recommendations about San Antonio and Texas
⚫ Listen to more episodes of the Ensemble Texas Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts
ABOUT CORY AMES:
Cory Ames is the founder and CEO of Ensemble Texas, a media organization promoting environmental, economic, and cultural resiliency across San Antonio and Texas. He’s passionate about connecting people to the natural beauty and rich history of the region, whether through video, podcasts, or long-form storytelling. With years of experience as a Texas Native Plant educator and content creator, Cory uses his platform to inspire sustainable living and amplify the voices of local businesses and environmental advocates.
Cory lives in San Antonio with his wife and two kids. He enjoys working in the garden, getting outside to explore the city’s natural spots, and playing hoops when he can. When he’s not producing content for Ensemble Texas, he’s likely planning his next adventure in Texas’ great outdoors.
PS: Interested in booking Cory for public speaking or sponsoring Ensemble Texas? Reach out via L...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are the largest city in North America to have a
deconstruction ordinance, whichI always like to say because we
are in San Antonio and everytime I come across someone on
the West Coast or the East Coastor Canada or across the world
that hasn't heard about ourpolicy, they're like Texas.
Really and.
I'm like hell yeah.
In Texas I always saydemolition doesn't happen in a
(00:22):
bubble and demolition happens tobuildings, but it also happens
to people.
You can't build a communityaround a landfill.
You can definitely buildcommunity around sharing and
reuse.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
They don't make them like they used to, from
dishwashers to our homes.
It's an idiom thatunfortunately, holds true.
Experts estimate that theaverage lifespan of modern
appliances has dropped by 20 to30 percent over the last couple
of decades.
Homes and buildings constructedbefore World War II were often
(01:02):
built with higher quality,stronger and more resilient old
growth wood materials that arebecoming harder to come by today
, as we've exhausted some of ourfinite natural resources.
As we face a housing crisis,with home prices in San Antonio
rising more than 30% since 2019,the pressure to build new homes
(01:22):
is greater than ever.
And yet the constructionindustry is grappling with a
shortage of skilled labor, with250,000 open jobs across the
nation.
Beyond the economic challenge,there's also an undeniable
environmental cost.
The buildings and constructionsector accounts for 37% of
(01:43):
global emissions, andconstruction waste is the
largest source of landfill wastein the US.
However, the challenge alsopresents an incredible
opportunity to do more with lessor with the same.
Deconstruction, which you'llhear about more in this episode,
(02:05):
offers a way to turn thisproblem into progress.
Instead of demolishing homesand sending valuable materials
to landfills, deconstructionallows us to salvage
high-quality building materials,old growth wood bricks and
windows and reuse them in newprojects and homes across the
city.
By reusing these materials, weof course salvage the value of
(02:29):
something otherwise thought ofas waste destined for a landfill
, but we also infuse greatervalue into our local San Antonio
economy.
In fact, deconstruction employssix times more people than
traditional demolition.
If materials are deconstructedhere, we need skilled
professionals to do those jobshere, and if those materials are
(02:52):
then reused here, they could bepurchased here versus extracted
from tree farms or plantationselsewhere in the United States
and across the world.
The supply chain and the valuethat's created becomes local, an
additional boon to our city ofSan Antonio and an incredible
savings of further environmentalexpenditure.
(03:16):
And to share with us today howwe square this circle, or circle
the square, I'm joined byStephanie Phillips from the
Office of Historic Preservationwith the City of San Antonio and
co-founder of Circular SanAntonio, a nonprofit
organization on a mission todrive growth of a circular
economy in the greater SanAntonio region through education
(03:36):
, action-focused work groups,advocacy events and
collaboration.
I'm Corey Ames, your host, andthis is Ensemble Texas.
Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I am the senior program manager for the city's
Deconstruction and CircularEconomy program, which was
formally created in 2022.
So it's a very new program andI'm so excited that I'm the
first person to have what Ithink is the coolest job title
in the city and, like thecountry, you don't have a lot of
people in city government thathave circular economy or
(04:10):
deconstruction in their title,because it's such a new program
and the Deconstruction andCircular Economy Program
administers the city'sdeconstruction ordinance, which
was adopted almost exactly twoyears ago.
So we make sure that olderbuilding stock gets
deconstructed instead ofdemolished and we also work to
grow basically our buildingmaterials reuse ecosystem
(04:32):
through facilities like ourMaterial Innovation Center and
workforce training efforts likeour deconstruction contractor
training program.
And outside of that, I do a lotof stuff that's related to
reuse and embodied carbonbecause that's my passion, and
the biggest thing is recentlyco-launching Circular San
Antonio, which is a localnonprofit seeking to scale
(04:53):
circular efforts here too, I'minterested, first, if you could
tell me about the story as tohow embodied carbon and reuse
became your passion, because Iimagine that those were terms,
first and foremost, that youkind of had to discover yourself
.
Exactly so.
(05:14):
I have a background in interiorarchitecture and a graduate
degree in historic preservationfrom UT, so that's how I got to
Texas and historic preservationis kind of a loaded term, but
the way that I consider it is aform of retaining materials,
stories, cultural heritage inour cities, and San Antonio is
probably the best city in thecountry to be working in this
(05:37):
field.
The past five years or so theterm embodied carbon has become
more synonymous with historicpreservation and essentially
what embodied carbon is is allof the energy and time and
effort and materials that wentinto constructing our buildings.
So the bricks that hold up thisbuilding, the wood that holds
(05:58):
up our houses, is a form ofembodied carbon, and all of that
energy is locked into thosematerials.
So it's already been expended.
And this is in contrast tooperational energy, which I
think a lot more people arefamiliar with, or operational
carbon, which is the energyrequired to power and cool and
run our buildings.
So I kind of look at asembodied carbon as a way to
(06:22):
retain that energy that alreadyexists, so making sure that our
buildings can stand and beadapted instead of demolished
and thrown away, whichnecessitates even more energy to
be expended after.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Well, so how did you get there?
You know working now indeconstruction when, from what I
understand what I could do,your original interest was in
interior design.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, so I have a professional degree in interior
design.
But pretty early on in thateducation I realized that I was
more interested in working withexisting buildings versus, you
know, getting a floor plan anddesigning in a bubble or
designing for anywhere USA, andpart of that was because of my
(07:09):
environment.
I went to undergraduate at theUniversity of Wisconsin-Madison
and they have one of the mostincredible pedestrian only main
thoroughfares in State Streetand it's just lined with older
buildings.
It's kind of the textbookexample of how we built our
cities before we catered to cars.
So I always loved, you know,working with those buildings and
(07:32):
imagining repurposing thoseinstead of creating something
brand new.
And from that I pursued mygraduate degree in historic
preservation, originally topotentially become an interior
architect or architect thatfocused on adaptive reuse.
But I learned pretty quickly aswell that I didn't want to be
an architect.
I was more interested in thecommunity engagement piece that
(07:54):
came with urban planning,working with communities
directly and having, you know,kind of seeing the impact of
your work in real time, whichisn't always possible when
you're designing a building,because the lead time, for that
takes a while, so I that's kindof how I transitioned into that
space.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And so growing up, was there any sort of I don't
know upbringing influence orwhat have you to encourage you
to think about our builtenvironment in a different way?
Can you track that back in anysort of way?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I really do think like the kicker was in college.
I grew up in the suburb ofMilwaukee in 1970s, 1980s, like
track suburb and my parentsstill own the house I grew up in
.
Like it's very nostalgic and myhometown is very important to
me, but I kind of learned afterbeing exposed to a city like
(08:52):
Madison and living in thatdowntown experience that this is
the environment that I thrivein, especially because it offers
more diversity of experienceand people and connections in a
more concentrated space and youdon't need a car to do it.
So I think that's really wheremy love for resource use and,
(09:15):
you know, connecting people andurban planning and policymaking
for a sustainable world kind ofpopped into my head.
And a lot of that is actuallyretroactive thinking.
I never thought I would work inlocal government ever, even
after I graduated grad school.
But when I think back to all ofthe things that I was innately
curious about, it makes a lot ofsense why I'm here.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, and then from Midwest down to Texas, and now,
specifically, san Antonio.
What is it like, then, to beworking not only in local
government, but local governmenthere in San Antonio?
How do you feel being in theposition that you are?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I feel incredibly fortunate.
I think San Antonio is one ofthe best places to be in a lot
of ways and for me I went tograduate school in Austin and I
was there from 2013 to 2015 andthat's kind of right around the
cusp of like the boom that weassociate with Austin's like
rapid growth, and it's reallyinteresting to come down here
(10:12):
and be a part of that now andsee what that meant in Austin
without really the strategiesand the tools to mitigate growth
and kind of balance theenvironmental integrity of a
city, the cultural, historic,physical buildings of that city.
We've kind of always seen likethat moving down the corridor in
.
San Antonio.
So since 2017, I've been sofortunate to be in a role and an
(10:36):
apartment that plays such a bigpart in how our city is planned
and growing, and facilitatethose conversations with
architects, developers,community members growing and
facilitate those conversationswith architects, developers,
community members.
(10:56):
It's just an incredibleplayground in a way to work and
live.
Okay, you'll immediately noticethat we don't have air
conditioning in here yet Iwanted to show this house
because we're able todemonstrate the Living Heritage
Trades Academy effect, like Jesswas mentioning.
So all of these windows havebeen restored by our Trades
Academy and you'll kind of sensethat from some of the glass
like remnants of that.
But this is also one of thebigger houses on campus.
(11:18):
This is where the generals andtheir families used to live, so
you know the major people onthis campus when it was active.
And right now we describe theinterior as 90s funeral home
vibes.
But I promise there's likehardwood flooring under here,
like very, it's very intact.
So in the near term, one of ourgoals, in conjunction with Port
(11:40):
San Antonio, is to restore thishouse and make it a functional
office space, and you'll see inthe next bungalow it's pretty
similar.
But you'll see what we meanabout our dream tool library
because there are tons of toolsin there.
Let's go over here.
So we kind of describe thesehouses in their current life as
(12:02):
a learning lab, which is why ourTrades Academy gets to play
with all of these windows.
And then this was one of thefirst places that we started
taking donated buildingmaterials, like before our
deconstruction ordinance, beforewe had the garage that we'll
visit.
So all of these windows you cankind of see like this unique
(12:22):
curve on here, came from achurch in downtown um, st mark's
, when the like administrationbuilding was being renovated.
So the contractor was like wehave 136 wood windows that we're
going to throw away, like, doyou want them?
And one of our like toxictraits is to say yes whenever
people are getting rid ofmaterials.
So, um, some of these andyou'll see, have been repurposed
(12:47):
in different ways or have beenreinstalled here or reinstalled
in other affordable housing ortrades projects.
So we are very happy to takethese materials to reuse them in
the future.
And then over here are thingsthat people usually don't see
(13:09):
with old windows, and these arewindow weights.
So we have all different sizes.
And it's kind of nice for usbecause when we were doing like
restoration projects back in theday, we would have to kind of
like search for these for ourcontractors, and now we're like
building a stash for them to belike if you need these to
(13:29):
restore something.
We have them for you.
These are so cool.
We love window weights.
We kind of use this example ofwindow weights and ropes as
these windows were designed tobe repaired.
So windows are always a bigthing with preservation, but
they're really like a greatlittle part of a building to
(13:51):
demonstrate Like these werereally designed to be repaired
by people over the years.
So that's kind of what we teachin our courses.
It's just you don't have tothrow everything away.
If it's a little bit broken,we'll teach you how to fix it.
Windows are just a fractionusually less than 20% of energy
loss in a building.
Most of it comes from thefoundation and the roof.
(14:12):
So we spend a lot of time,especially like we both live in
older houses.
My house was built in 1925 andis a landmark.
So I kind of talk about likethese are the exact things that
happen in my house and we'reactually doing a demonstration
project with the Neighborhoodand Housing Services Department
right now where we're storingall of the original wood windows
(14:33):
but then implementingtraditional features like the
screens yes, so screens, sonatural ways that we've been
doing all of our years toprevent heat gain.
And then things like trees,like a lot of people don't think
about trees as a strategy toreduce heat gain, especially on
the East and West.
And then interior window inserts.
(14:54):
You know um film that you caninstall on inside of windows.
And we have a UTSA like PhDstudent that's energy modeling,
and she was like if we replacethese windows, the difference
would be negligible.
So a lot of what we do is kindof that counter education of
like we don't have anything tosell you.
(15:15):
We're not big window.
Rather, we're encouraging youto reinvest in what already
exists on your house that hasbeen there for, in cases like
these, over 100 years.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And then we also try to like talk to people in a
roundabout way about embodiedenergy of them as well, like the
labor that it costs to makethese.
The quality of the wood, sothese windows, because they're
old growth wood, are moreresistant to things like water
damage, mold, termites, otherkinds of pests, and so it's
really like a higher qualityproduct.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I think in the lifespan of like a traditional
replacement window, now, likethere's a limited warranty for a
reason right, like 10 yearlimited warranty If you paint
them, if you sell the house, ifyou try to fix it wrong like
it's void.
So in the lifespan of one ofthese windows you'll have to
replace your windows like fourto five times.
And so that's been a reallyinteresting shift and like we
(16:10):
are seeing this trend in thearchitecture industry of like oh
wait, like throwing awaymaterials is actually not great
for the earth, especiallybecause construction and
demolition waste is the largestsource of waste in the world and
demolition waste is the largestsource of waste in the world.
So, talking about embodiedenergy in conjunction with
operational energy and how wekind of mesh that in a way that
(16:31):
makes sense for specificbuildings and specific climate,
Could you give us an explanationof what the day-to-day looks
like for your position andperhaps what that connects, or
specifically the deconstructionordinance that you already
mentioned?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Can you give us greater detail as to what that
is, what the implications arefor our city and how that ties
to your day-to-day?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
in 2017, I was a senior case manager for our
Landmarks Commission, so workingwith architects and homeowners
on decisions that they weremaking with their properties and
helping them navigate thosedecisions.
And right around that time, citycouncil issued a council
consideration request to ourdepartment and our peer
departments, like developmentservices, to look at all of the
demolition policies that were onthe books, and this was largely
(17:29):
in response to a communityeffort around the pace and
location of primarily singlefamily and missing middle
housing that was being morereadily demolished as the city
started to grow right.
So that was a really biginflection point from a policy
perspective and thoseconstituents kind of advocated
to their city council member toyou know, see, can we be doing
(17:54):
something better from a cityadministration standpoint around
demolition?
And from that came the idea ofa potential deconstruction
policy or program and what thatmeans.
So, as buildings are goingthrough the process, the
decision making, the permittingprocess to be demolished or be
removed, there are a fewinflection points where,
(18:14):
especially in our office, wehave community members coming to
us saying we actually need tosave this building.
This building is reallyimportant to us, but it may not
have historic protections, soit's really really difficult to
stop the removal of thatbuilding.
And this is some of thetestimony that we heard in those
early days of this policydiscussion is, you know, one day
(18:35):
I could see a building thatreally means something to me and
the next day it's smashed andgone and that can be really
fracturing and almost violentfor communities if that critical
resource that has been part oftheir living heritage honestly
for a long time is just gone,and from that came the idea of
(18:55):
deconstruction, which is slowingdown the demolition process.
It's basically unbuilding abuilding in the opposite way it
was constructed, or reverseengineering.
So instead of heavy machinerysmashing a building and throwing
it into a landfill, in a matterof days you have people slowly
dismantling from the roof downto the foundation and salvaging
(19:16):
those materials for reuse.
So that's the process that wewanted to see more of.
I think some of the bestpolicies, especially at the
local level, come out of theidea of there is something
happening in my community that Idon't think is right and I
don't think is benefiting me,and this is just one of those
examples.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Well, I mean, it seems that there's a much
greater opportunity, followingmore intentional deconstruction,
to keep some culturalcontinuity, as it seems.
You're saying um, mybrother-in-law uh calls one of
the the new styles of, likemodular developments, space
barns.
You know, I think we're allkind of familiar with that.
Look, austin's really prevalentwith them, san antonio's
(19:57):
getting its fair share of them,uh.
But you kind of imagine 20 to30 years down the line thinking
like, oh, that's gonna.
It stands out currently likekind of you know, a sore thumb
but it doesn't really fit, youknow, in the style and it's
something that's really kind oftemplated.
And you start to see it,whether you're in Boise, idaho,
another city where I have familylive, growing very fast and
(20:20):
changing Austin or San Antonio,and that, you know, breaks my
heart a little bit.
But I'm curious, what would yousay to someone who hears that
and says like that is a reallygood idea, it's a pleasant idea,
but to me, someone slowlydeconstructing a building and
salvaging materials, that soundsmaybe inconvenient and maybe
(20:41):
expensive.
What would you say to someonewith that kind of response?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, so our deconstruction ordinance was
adopted in 2022, and we startedtalking about a policy in 2017,
2018.
So we spent about four and ahalf years kind of interrogating
those exact questions with adeconstruction advisory
committee which had anyone fromour real estate council which is
, you know, the development arm,advocacy arm of San Antonio to
(21:09):
environmental advocates,preservation advocates, solid
waste and affordable housingexperts, and I loved that.
I think it's such a great toolto develop policy because you
have a lot of people comingtogether in a room pretty
consistently that would nevershare space with each other, or
very rarely, and that affordsthe ability for those people to
(21:30):
hear each other out and say youknow, this may slow down my
development process, but anotherperson may say, okay, and it's
going to benefit our environment, we're going to have more
access to building materials inour community and it allows
those people to have thosediscussions.
So we kind of almost in a way,held space for those
conversations to happen andstood back and said what would a
(21:53):
policy look like for SanAntonio specifically, versus
like copying one from adifferent city?
So that's so time and cost Idon't think is something that is
ameliorated by this policy orby deconstruction in general,
it's always going to be aconcern, but in the same way
that we talk about any otherdevelopment and environmental
policy, it's like what are welosing, or who is getting the
(22:19):
brunt of the negativeexternalities?
To save $3,000 or to save fourdays of time?
And the answer to that, throughour research, through our
engagement, through connectingwith our city council members
and our constituents, was thecommunity.
Demolition is, like I mentioned,violent and fracturing.
(22:40):
It is a form of air pollution.
Even if you do it best byspraying down a site, it is a
form of air pollution.
You know, even if you do itbest by spraying down a site,
you have particulate matterspreading 200, 400, 600 yards
away from a site.
I always say demolition doesn'thappen in a bubble and
demolition happens to buildingsbut it also happens to people.
So you know, spraying down asite, that particular matter can
(23:03):
get into our groundwater andit's just something that we as a
society have been kind ofconditioned to accept.
Because I know in my generationI never knew anything different
than demolition to removebuildings right.
Like I loved climbing on coolbulldozers and playing pocket
games when I was growing up.
That was just something thatyou constantly saw.
But when you recognize howdamaging that way of removing
(23:27):
buildings can be, it becomesreally challenging to justify it
in any way.
I love our department and likewhat's happening in San Antonio
for a lot of reasons, but Ithink why we've found a lot of
success, especially in thecontext of national audiences,
like San Antonio is looked at askind of the leader in municipal
(23:50):
historic preservation becauseof that holistic approach.
You can't regulate somethingwithout the ability for the
community to find that resource.
So I think I've been here forover seven years, jess has been
here for over six years, right,and when I started I know that
(24:11):
we had sometimes had issues withcustomers finding, for example,
wood window restorationcontractors.
But now that doesn't happenbecause of our trades academy,
right, like we've, I want to say, almost double the amount of
people that are working in thisspace through education, and
that's like a testament toworkforce development is kind of
(24:32):
a key to reversing, like thetrend of like oh, it's broke,
let's throw it away that lineareconomy approach.
Okay, so you'll notice a lot ofsimilarities in the funeral
home vibe, but we have tools inhere, and the reason why I want
(24:53):
to point this out is because alot of these tools weren't just
bought for the purpose of like afuture tool library but were
collected over the years for ourtrainings, especially our
deconstruction contractortraining, which we launched
about five years ago.
So you'll see things likeshovels and weed eaters, but
also things like crowbars anddemolition hammers.
(25:14):
And San Antonio is one of thelargest cities in the country
that doesn't have a communitytool library.
So our sister nonprofit isgoing to develop that, either in
this bungalow or a bungalowthat will pass down the street.
So we're really excited becausewe've learned from working with
customers a lot that you knowtools are expensive Like my
(25:36):
husband's still mad at mebecause I bought a circular saw
to do one craft for OHP and it'ssitting on our porch because we
don't have anywhere to store itand it's, you know, sometimes
tools are single use.
So if we can kind of mitigateaccess to that and distribute
them to people that need them,even temporarily, we'll feel
like we're, you know, scratchingaway the barriers to home
(25:56):
repair.
Because especially in SanAntonio, in our work of
reviewing every demolitionpermit in the entire city which
is what Jess does, which can bedepressing sometimes, but then
also working with ourdeconstruction ordinance is that
a majority, especially ofhouses that are coming in for
demolition, are being requestedbecause of deferred maintenance
(26:17):
right over 10, 20, 30 years.
So if we can kind of stave thatoff at the source, we'll see
less and less requests to demo.
The goal of our Trades Academyand kind of our partnership with
Port San Antonio is that oncethey fix this house, we're just
going to keep moving down thestreet and, you'll see, as we
(26:41):
get further down the street thehouses get a little bit more
shabby chic, as I like to callit.
So we're really excited about,you know, continuing to keep
moving and using these houses aslearning labs.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
The world was Stephanie's kind of utopian
vision, at least San Antoniospecifically.
And deconstruction was theblanket policy and the way in
which we operated with buildingsthat had maybe seen the extent
(27:24):
of their useful life needed toscaling deconstruction so that
we could apply it on a citywidelevel, a region level.
What's in our way from beingable to do that?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I love that question because we get a lot of
questions about are we expandingour ordinance?
Are we including commercial,are we looking into newer
buildings?
And there are a few citiesacross the country who have
deconstruction regulations forevery single building in their
city.
A few of them are Boulder,colorado, and Palo Alto,
california, and they're aimingto have 85% diversion rates, in
(28:02):
some cases for the entirety ofthe building, and it's so
incredible and something that Ithink we hope to aspire to.
Of course, if you knowgeographies and know city size,
those are a lot smaller citiesthan San Antonio, so you have to
start somewhere.
I think some key barriers toscaling it are workforce.
That's such a big component ofour program is workforce
(28:24):
training, because in order toeffectively regulate a policy,
you need to make sure that youhave the people that can do the
work on behalf of people thatare hiring them.
So even before, well before,several years before we adopted
our ordinance, we launched ourcertified deconstruction
contractor training program,where we bring in a national
trainer we typically hireRepurpose Savannah, which is an
(28:47):
all women plus leddeconstruction nonprofit in
Savannah, georgia, that trainspeople how to fully remove
buildings but then also givesthem the tools to launch their
own reuse center so they takedown buildings and they also
sell those materials to theircommunities.
So they're actually going to behere in October leading to more
cohorts of deconstructioncontractor training programs so
(29:10):
we can get even more peoplelocally to do that work.
And I think another barrier isactually just how the way we
built buildings changed prettyrapidly after World War II.
So currently our deconstructionordinance requires buildings
built, houses built before 1945in certain areas to be
(29:30):
deconstructed.
And that was a very strategicdate because after World War II
you started to see a lot moremass production introduced and a
lot more things that make itdifficult to unbuild a building,
like glues, mastics, staplesbasically gluing a bunch of
building materials together,which is very different than
kind of the Lincoln Logsstrategy of how we used to build
(29:53):
buildings before World War II.
So we're kind of thinking aboutthat as well.
There are a few companies andresearchers across the country
that are figuring out ways to dothat, which is super exciting,
and I hope we'll be able tobring some of that technology
and workforce training to SanAntonio to scale it in the
future.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
And does your department have?
I mean, you mentioned theSavannah organization for one is
there something of a nationalnetwork that you feel like
you're developing or havedeveloped in these conversations
around deconstruction?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Absolutely.
I always say that we would havenever been able to achieve our
deconstruction ordinance, whichI can't believe I haven't said
yet is the largest in NorthAmerica.
We are the largest city inNorth America to have a
deconstruction ordinance, whichI always like to say because we
are in San Antonio and everytime I come across someone on
the West Coast or the East Coastor Canada or across the world
(30:47):
that hasn't heard about ourpolicy, they're like Texas.
Really and.
I'm like hell yeah in Texas.
So we learned so much from thecity of Portland, oregon.
They were the first city inNorth America to adopt a policy
like this in 2016.
And I have to get a shout outto Sean Wood.
He was basically my equivalentat the city of Portland and he's
(31:08):
now at the EPA helping citiesand communities with low carbon
materials.
He really helped us.
You know approach our policyeffort and that kind of made me
realize that the only way thatwe're going to affect local
change and something that's sonew is through the resource
sharing and partnership ofcommunities around the country.
(31:31):
So I sit on the board of anational nonprofit called Build
Reuse and it's the majornonprofit in the United States
that seeks to turn constructionand demolition waste into local
resources.
So that has been my network andmy safe space, if you will, to
kind of get out of my bubble andlearn more about how other
(31:51):
people are approaching thisreally important topic.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
And so you may have mentioned it already, but
specifically, the ordinancerequires deconstruction for
buildings built before 1945.
Is that the extent of theordinance and then a follow-up
on that.
If you were to take it furtherand maybe it is completely
conditional, based off of theresearch and the strategy
necessary to be able todeconstruct other buildings that
(32:18):
were built at different erasbut where would you take it
further?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So right now we have three phases of the ordinance
that were adopted in 2022.
So we're currently in thesecond phase and that states
that any residential buildingfourplex or smaller, so down to
single family built in 1920anywhere in the city has to be
deconstructed and 1945 inhistoric districts and
(32:41):
neighborhood conservationdistricts, so kind of those
protected zoning overlays.
But our ordinance is actuallyexpanding into its final phase,
january 1 of 2025, and that willexpand to 1945 and earlier
anywhere in the city and go upto eight plex and smaller so
kind of that missing middlehousing if it's coming down and
1960 and earlier in thoseprotected districts.
(33:04):
So we're starting to creep intosome of those newer buildings
and part of the reason why it'sso strategically, you know, slow
growth.
I always say that we wanted totake like bite-sized pieces out
of our demolition stream to makesure that our workforce and our
reuse ecosystem was growing.
(33:25):
Alongside the regulation, we'veseen some communities across
the country that bit off morethan they could chew and maybe
didn't invest in workforcedevelopment or wanted to do
every single building rightwithout those strategic
investments and they've had topause or stay their ordinances
because it just was too much ofa disruption.
So ours is very intentional andit is very much rooted in the
(33:49):
realities.
In San Antonio we looked at 10years of demolition data to see
can we hone in on a build dateand a building type and a
building year that started with33% and then grew to 45% and
then grew to 65% of housingdemolitions to be incremental in
that strategic way.
So I think it was smart, eventhough the environmentalist in
(34:13):
me wanted to be like let's geteverything.
So I think my dream and where wemight go in the future this
would require a future ordinanceand a ton more in community
engagement.
Basically restarting what wedid five years ago is looking
into commercial structures andpotentially looking into major
renovations of buildings.
(34:33):
A lot of construction anddemolition waste is generated
through gut rehabs.
So we do have a lot ofcommunity members coming to us
saying I see dumpsters anddumpsters in old homes next to
me that are being completelygutted and that material is just
as valuable as a house that'sbeing fully removed.
What can we do?
So I think hopefully in thenear future we'll be able to
(34:55):
restart those conversations.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
So demolition is one category, renovation another one
, and then that betweenresidential and commercial.
Is there anything thatstretches to the prospect of
conditions for what new buildslook like one way or another,
residential or commercial or isthat?
Would that be a differentdepartment?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I think that we may co-lead on that.
I'm so glad you asked thatbecause that's also kind of on
our radar 2% of their budgetinto public art for a new
building, and we're thinking 2%reclaimed materials and some
(35:46):
sort of visible aspect of thebuilding like an overhang or
cladding or even reuse materialsfor public art.
So what?
I always say that thedeconstruction ordinance is kind
of focused on the supply side,making sure that we're
intercepting all of thesemillions of tons of materials
that are going to the landfilland redirecting them back into
(36:07):
our communities so they can beproductively used.
And then what you're describingis more on the demand side.
How can we generate moreincentives or more regulations
to inspire or require people tothink reuse first instead of
relying on virgin materials?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Right, and so where do we feel like we are in that
establishing that supply chain?
Is there just by no meansenough supply, or is there a
mismatch in the level of demandright now?
It's interesting how that'sjust a completely different
supply chain, a much morelocalized one, hyper localized
(36:44):
supply chain.
But where are we, do you thinkin that system, flowing more
smoothly?
Yeah.
Where's the choke point?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I think a big barrier right now is volume and
consistency, and this is wherethe Material Innovation Center
comes in a little bit is that wework.
I love, I love working witharchitects.
I love chatting the ear off ofdesigners and specifiers, asking
them those questions to specifyreclaimed.
(37:13):
But when we think about largebuildings like community centers
or apartment buildings, thatrequires a lot of material and a
lot of consistent material, andpart of the charm and
excitement of reclaimed buildingmaterials is kind of the
(37:34):
uniqueness of those.
But when you're so used to anarchitecture industry that
relies on volume and consistency, that is a remarkable barrier.
And that's not just a SanAntonio thing, it's really a
worldwide thing.
So I think we do have a lotmore work to do here to you know
, offer more storage or offermore investment, or incentivize
(37:58):
more startups and establishbuilding material innovators to
invest in San Antonio and makeit a circular city for our built
environment, to address thosetwo key barriers volume and
consistency.
Every time we open these it's anew adventure.
(38:20):
Okay, so this is where we startgetting into.
Feel free to come in the superfun stuff.
So every single one of thesegarage bays has material in it.
(38:41):
That wasn't the case, like evenjust a few months ago.
But I want to point out thisgarage first.
So all of these houses at leastsome of them, or maybe all of
them were built using salvagematerials, which is like a
really amazing like context,like closing that loop.
(39:03):
Some of the houses we foundlike boards in the top that say
Hagerstown, maryland, which wasan Air Force but is an Air Force
base, and I think the port hasconfirmed that a lot of that
lumber has come from shippingcrates that were shipping like
airplane airplane parts to KellyField when it was active during
World War I.
(39:23):
So that lumber has made it intothese buildings.
So we like to kind of likepoint that out as we're talking
about this campus, because it'snot like that unique to use what
you already have on hand,especially if it's already had
one use.
So that's a really fun,serendipitous moment and you can
kind of see it like we'll seeit in a few other bays, like you
can tell that some lumber waslike cobbled together when this
(39:44):
was constructed and we've hadstructural engineers out here
being like they don't build thislike this anymore.
Like it may look like a hauntedhouse from the outside but it
is solid as a rock.
So we love this garage.
So we get donated buildingmaterials from contractors, even
(40:05):
homeowners, to this site.
We also take materials fromdeconstruction training sites
where we actually like trainpeople to take down an entire
building, which we're doing inOctober, which your students
should come to, and this is someof that from, like, a house
that we took down a few yearsago.
This is a bunch of donated gymflooring from one of our
contractors which we'll figureout how to use at some point.
(40:29):
But I think the golden materialsthat we as the city are
consistently using are reclaimedsiding like this.
This is waterfall siding, supercommon in.
So our office has a programcalled Rehab-O-Rama where we are
able to connect contractorswith deeply existing affordable
(40:50):
housing to repair them, and thenour neighborhood and housing
services department uses HUDfunding to do similar projects.
Those ones are like basicallycompletely rehabbing an existing
building and we've already beenable to matchmake materials
like we're facilitators in a lotof ways.
So if we see a project that isgoing to be deconstructed, we'll
(41:12):
connect with the contractor andsay, hey, like we need x linear
feet of this siding to repair abuilding that nhsd needs
restored, and they'll be likeokay, we'll donate it to you and
then we'll plug that in to theproject.
So we've actually seen thathappen a few times already.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Where might there be some other savings for us in
using more of these reclaimedmaterials that we wouldn't
otherwise consider?
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, I think one aspect that I pretty
consistently think about is thatif we use more of the materials
that are readily available inour communities I started
referring to, like our houses,like the ones that are being
deconstructed as urban forestsbecause they were constructed of
old growth lumber, you know,that was felled hundreds of
(42:06):
years ago and they grew forthousands of years in some ways,
and if we use more reclaimedmaterials, it reduces the demand
for virgin materials, whetherthat be virgin forests and
virgin lumber or, more commonlyright now in our society is
plastic and petroleum basedbuilding materials.
(42:28):
So I think that's one thing thatwe try to elevate more often is
that if you go more reclaimedand if we do that more as a
society, then we're leveragingmore of the resources that
already exist to your pointhyperlocally, instead of relying
on mining our earth for more.
So, I think that's oneinteresting way of considering
(42:49):
it.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
And so do you imagine that, like the sticker shock
would be too high for developersor anything like that from the
get-go, or perhaps with thegreater prevalence of reclaimed
materials that costs would godown greater prevalence of
reclaimed materials, that costswould go down.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, so I think COVID was a really big
eye-opener, if you recall, backin 2021, 2022, or if you blocked
it out, like me, which is greatfor our mental health.
But there was such a barrierprice-wise and access-wise for
construction materials because alot of people were pursuing
those kind of projects and, as aresult, supply chains were
(43:32):
choked in various different waysand, more importantly, lead
times just the time it wouldtake to access those materials
became longer and time is moneyin the development world.
So I think that was a really bigeye opener on, like how much we
rely on those worldwide supplychains and largely as a consumer
(43:52):
, as a homeowner myself like Ihave no idea where, like my West
Elm table came from, I have noidea where those materials had
to go or travel to be puttogether.
But if we're relying on thishyper local source, especially
now that we have more materialsentering the San Antonio
ecosystem because ofdeconstruction, it just makes us
(44:12):
more resilient as a communitywhen we're talking about access
to those materials.
So the more materials we havein our ecosystem instead of
going to the landfill, the moreaccessible they are and the more
affordable they can be.
So that's a really big focusfor us too.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
And so then, currently on the design and
build side architects,developers or otherwise is the
door open in some regard.
If they wanted to get involvedin using more reclaimed
materials and thinking aboutprojects that way, when would
they get started?
Do they reach out to you?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yes, I feel like I'm like a, not a call center, but
like I always get emailsmultiple times a week or calls
from both property owners andeven developers, like affordable
housing developers ordevelopers that are looking for
something that is uniquely SanAntonio right.
I also think this is a bit of adiversion, but just to
(45:11):
emphasize how I think ourbuilding industry and our design
industry is kind of shiftingaway from, like, the builder
grade style that was soprevalent in the past decade or
so into something that is morelocally true to where we are.
So we have a lot of peoplereaching out to us saying I want
to build a custom curtain wallout of reclaimed lumber from a
(45:35):
local building, because youcan't manufacture authenticity.
Or, more commonly, we haveproperty owners saying I need to
restore my home or I'm buildingin addition to my 1920s
building.
I want to use the same hardwood, I want to use the same siding,
I want to use similar doors.
Where can I find that?
(45:56):
And we're very fortunate to beable to point to a lot of
reclaimed stores anddeconstruction contractors that
can supply that for people.
So the door is consistentlyopen and one of my favorite
examples about deconstruction inpractice is, I said at the
beginning that demolitionhappens in a day or two.
It's very quick, it's veryviolent, it's very fracturing
(46:18):
and fracturing emotionally andphysically.
You're like splintering all ofthose materials.
You can't reuse them.
But when you slow down thatprocess, it's every single
deconstruction project withoutfail, especially in a dense
legacy community.
Neighbors shop this site.
I started comparing it to likeknocking on your neighbor's door
(46:39):
for a cup of sugar, but nowyou're knocking on your
neighbor's door for some shiplapor for some siding, and that
happens every single timebecause you're affording that
process to happen.
And that, to me, is thedefinition of a microcircular
economy.
Like you can't create a betterecosystem footprint wise than
that.
So the more we do that, themore people can access that.
(47:02):
And then I will say thatthere's a growing trend of
people just being more cognizantthat that's an option.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Well, and it seems like with that opportunity just
to be able to more sensibly useand reuse the materials that
exist within your own community,your own ecosystem, seems like
a much greater sense of pridecan grow in the built
environment that surrounds you.
Like you said, it's alreadysomething that can be so
(47:30):
devastating as things aredemolished and changed and
something new is there that maynot have the same sort of
cohesive look and feel and kindof cultural character, and so it
seems like there's a greatopportunity for us, as San
Antonians, to take pride in thatand start to add a little bit
(47:53):
of our reclaimed materials toour new projects and renovations
and those kinds of things.
Stephanie, I'm curious to getto your work outside your day
job too, the nonprofitorganization that you co-founded
, and I'd like to get to that by, as well, framing it in a
question why do you think SanAntonio and maybe already
(48:17):
layered through our conversationthus far, but why do you think
this city, is so apt andwell-suited to advance this
movement for a more circulareconomy?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Circular.
San Antonio, like you mentioned, is a non-profit organization
that really seeks to help SanAntonio transition to a more
circular city, and what thatreally means is to tip the
scales in favor of reuse insteadof kind of the linear economy
that we're used to, which issingle use over consumption, a
lot of waste.
And that is not just a SanAntonio problem, it's a
(48:50):
worldwide problem.
But I know from my own work andworking locally and kind of
leveraging the skills and energyof our community and the
talents as well, is that if wecome together for this common
cause, we can move that needle.
And I think that San Antonio isthe perfect city for this to
(49:10):
happen, because we value ourexisting resources in a very
unique way compared to othercities that I've visited or I've
lived in, and I think some ofthat stems from the big city,
small town identity that we'reso proud of, where people are
connected to literally everyone.
It shocks me every day, inevery conversation that I have,
(49:33):
is that there's six degrees ofeveryone that lives in San
Antonio and so there's alreadythis kind of cohesive network of
people being able to tap intotheir skills and abilities and
interests.
But then I also think it stemsfrom, honestly, the fact that
we're a world heritage city andthere's such an important
identity tied to our culturalheritage, and I mean every
(49:57):
single layer of our culturalheritage, even if it's a little
bit messy and complicated,because that identity that we've
been able to maintain in ourbuilt environment and our
cultural legacy is thefoundation for us to continue to
reinvest in what makes usunique and what drives our local
industries.
So one big thing that CircularSan Antonio is trying to do is
(50:21):
elevate the businesses that aretruly local.
San Antonio is trying to do iselevate the businesses that are
truly local right.
So we think about the shoecobblers, the seamstresses, the
many general contractors thatrehab our existing buildings,
the deconstruction contractorsthat we're building up locally.
These are people that live here, that work here, that pay taxes
here, that spend money here andbelieve that San Antonio is
(50:42):
where they want to be.
And if we invest in more ofthose people in those industries
, you know that's whatcircularity is.
So I think leveraging kind ofthe identity and the community
and the cohesion that is sounique to this city is the key
to unlocking more reefs.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
I love that.
Well, and Stephanie, I'mcurious for more reefs.
I love that, well, and,stephanie, I'm curious for folks
listening or watching.
What are some physical projectsthat exist in San Antonio?
If someone was curious to seethis very tangibly, either from
what you think really emphasizescircularity, the principles of
circularity, or, likewise,deconstruction, what's something
(51:22):
that someone could go see inSan Antonio that would reflect
that?
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I think a really big example is something that our
office launched a few years ago,which is called our Living
Heritage Trades Academy.
So related to circularity andhaving a workforce to reinvest
in our buildings.
Related to circularity andhaving a workforce to reinvest
in our buildings most of thepeople that work in construction
trades are 45 or older.
(51:49):
And out of 100 people on aconstruction site, only one is a
woman.
So these two dimensions areintertwined in a lot of
different ways and the only waythat we can really make sure
(52:11):
that these resources stay aroundis to invest in the people that
dedicate their time and craftand skill to doing that work.
So we offer a lot of differentemployment pathways through our
Trades Academy, whether it'sreusing windows, restoring
windows, doing deconstruction,training.
But we also have a lot ofcommunity workshops where, even
if you don't want this to beyour business, but you want to
learn a little bit more abouthow your house works and lives
and breathes and ages that'swhat we're here for.
So I'm always about elevating,kind of the hands-on way for
(52:31):
people to play and learn.
So I think that's one big waythat people can get involved.
But then I always encouragepeople to stop by and kind of
just watch a house beingrestored or a house being
deconstructed, because you canlearn so much about that
incredible trade and maybe seesome things that you've never
seen before, like a lumber stampor a weird archaeological find,
(52:54):
like a kerosene lamp that's inyour front yard, which is
something that actually happenedto me.
So there's just so much touncover by learning more about
how our buildings are restoredand the materials kept in our
environment, construction andthe possibilities of circularity
(53:26):
advancing in San Antonio.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
If you could wave a magic wand and embed one bit of
understanding, or one kind ofeye-opening learning for general
San Antonians, what would thatbe?
What would you want people tosee or understand that is
possible in San Antonio thatthey may not currently?
Speaker 1 (53:42):
The landfill doesn't deserve these materials.
Our communities do, and ofcourse I connect that with
building materials, but it couldmean any material that we so
readily throw away, whether it'splastic or clothes or
electronics, and really thinkingabout how those systems don't
have to be the way they are.
(54:02):
And a lot of the solutions liein our backyard.
We don't have to be the waythey are and a lot of the
solutions lie in our backyard.
We don't have to rely onfederal laws, although those
would be awesome but we can kindof seek to reorient those
really wasteful systems just byleveraging our own skills and
connections here.
So I just always challengepeople to look at what is unseen
(54:27):
, which is typically our wastesystem, where you put stuff at
the front of your yard or theback of your yard and somehow it
magically disappears and younever see it again.
To think about how we canrestructure those systems and
keep those materials for us,Because you can't build a
community around a landfill.
You can definitely buildcommunity around sharing and
reuse.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
San Antonio, I think, is a scrappy city, one whose
citizens pride themselves ontheir resourcefulness and, in
some ways too, frugality.
As a city, we seem tounderstand the phrase what's old
is new again better than most.
We watch cities across thestate and country, chase what's
modern and multiply.
(55:19):
Whether it's Washington, idaho,colorado or Texas, you can walk
through some neighborhoods andnot know which state you're in.
Same aesthetic, same font onthe house number, maybe even a
Tesla in the driveway For ourhomes, our buildings, libraries,
office spaces, schools orwhatever else.
There's no need or desire forus to have some modern look,
(55:43):
just a San Antonio one.
Deconstruction and reuse allowus to act more in line with our
values as a city.
A city that values its heritage, its history and finds unique
and creative ways to tell thosestories in both our built and
lived environments.
A city that holds great valuein what is truly invaluable
(56:05):
Family, friends, fiesta, ourcommunity.
A city generous in spirit andservice, yet highly prudent with
materials, cautious andrightfully so about letting a
good thing go to waste.
I've seen that every time thecity's bulky item collection
week comes around.
San Antonio can and shouldbecome the circular city,
(56:27):
because we have a unique sharedidentity of doing things in and
for our community, a city thathonors, celebrates and explores
what's historic, what's timeless, while trends take hold
everywhere else.
By first seeing what can bedone, what can be achieved with
(56:48):
what's lying around, which feelsquintessentially San Antonio,
we can turn the linear approachof take, make and waste into a
loop, with every exit leadingback to San Antonio.
All right, y'all.
(57:20):
That's a wrap for this episodeof Ensemble Texas.
I want to extend an additionalthank you to our guest today,
stephanie Phillips, for sharingher expertise and passion for
building a more circular SanAntonio.
It's inspiring to hear aboutthe strides we're making toward
a city that values reuse overwaste, whether that's through
deconstruction or broadercircular economy initiatives.
As Stephanie reminded us, thelandfill doesn't deserve our
(57:41):
materials.
Our communities do.
It's a powerful call to action,especially as San Antonio
continues to grow and evolve.
We can preserve our culture,create jobs and build a more
sustainable future, all byrethinking how we handle what we
(58:03):
often call waste.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, don't forget to
check out Circular San Antonioand the city's deconstruction
programs.
You can find links in the shownotes or visit
podcastsensembletexascom formore information.
Lastly, if you're not alreadysubscribed, join me each week as
we dive deeper into the people,places and stories shaping San
(58:27):
Antonio's future.
Sign up for our newsletters atEnsembleTexascom to stay
connected, and if you're abusiness or organization
interested in sponsoring orcollaborating with Ensemble
Texas, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Drop us an email at sponsor atEnsembleTexascom to explore how
we can work together.
Thanks for listening orwatching.
(58:47):
Until next time.
We are the largest city in North America to have a
deconstruction ordinance, whichI always like to say because we
are in San Antonio and everytime I come across someone on
the West Coast or the East Coastor Canada or across the world
that hasn't heard about ourpolicy, they're like Texas.
Really and.
I'm like hell yeah.
In Texas I always saydemolition doesn't happen in a
(00:22):
bubble and demolition happens tobuildings, but it also happens
to people.
You can't build a communityaround a landfill.
You can definitely buildcommunity around sharing and
reuse.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
They don't make them like they used to, from
dishwashers to our homes.
It's an idiom thatunfortunately, holds true.
Experts estimate that theaverage lifespan of modern
appliances has dropped by 20 to30 percent over the last couple
of decades.
Homes and buildings constructedbefore World War II were often
(01:02):
built with higher quality,stronger and more resilient old
growth wood materials that arebecoming harder to come by today
, as we've exhausted some of ourfinite natural resources.
As we face a housing crisis,with home prices in San Antonio
rising more than 30% since 2019,the pressure to build new homes
(01:22):
is greater than ever.
And yet the constructionindustry is grappling with a
shortage of skilled labor, with250,000 open jobs across the
nation.
Beyond the economic challenge,there's also an undeniable
environmental cost.
The buildings and constructionsector accounts for 37% of
(01:43):
global emissions, andconstruction waste is the
largest source of landfill wastein the US.
However, the challenge alsopresents an incredible
opportunity to do more with lessor with the same.
Deconstruction, which you'llhear about more in this episode,
(02:05):
offers a way to turn thisproblem into progress.
Instead of demolishing homesand sending valuable materials
to landfills, deconstructionallows us to salvage
high-quality building materials,old growth wood bricks and
windows and reuse them in newprojects and homes across the
city.
By reusing these materials, weof course salvage the value of
(02:29):
something otherwise thought ofas waste destined for a landfill
, but we also infuse greatervalue into our local San Antonio
economy.
In fact, deconstruction employssix times more people than
traditional demolition.
If materials are deconstructedhere, we need skilled
professionals to do those jobshere, and if those materials are
(02:52):
then reused here, they could bepurchased here versus extracted
from tree farms or plantationselsewhere in the United States
and across the world.
The supply chain and the valuethat's created becomes local, an
additional boon to our city ofSan Antonio and an incredible
savings of further environmentalexpenditure.
(03:16):
And to share with us today howwe square this circle, or circle
the square, I'm joined byStephanie Phillips from the
Office of Historic Preservationwith the City of San Antonio and
co-founder of Circular SanAntonio, a nonprofit
organization on a mission todrive growth of a circular
economy in the greater SanAntonio region through education
(03:36):
, action-focused work groups,advocacy events and
collaboration.
I'm Corey Ames, your host, andthis is Ensemble Texas.
Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I am the senior program manager for the city's
Deconstruction and CircularEconomy program, which was
formally created in 2022.
So it's a very new program andI'm so excited that I'm the
first person to have what Ithink is the coolest job title
in the city and, like thecountry, you don't have a lot of
people in city government thathave circular economy or
(04:10):
deconstruction in their title,because it's such a new program
and the Deconstruction andCircular Economy Program
administers the city'sdeconstruction ordinance, which
was adopted almost exactly twoyears ago.
So we make sure that olderbuilding stock gets
deconstructed instead ofdemolished and we also work to
grow basically our buildingmaterials reuse ecosystem
(04:32):
through facilities like ourMaterial Innovation Center and
workforce training efforts likeour deconstruction contractor
training program.
And outside of that, I do a lotof stuff that's related to
reuse and embodied carbonbecause that's my passion, and
the biggest thing is recentlyco-launching Circular San
Antonio, which is a localnonprofit seeking to scale
(04:53):
circular efforts here too, I'minterested, first, if you could
tell me about the story as tohow embodied carbon and reuse
became your passion, because Iimagine that those were terms,
first and foremost, that youkind of had to discover yourself
.
Exactly so.
(05:14):
I have a background in interiorarchitecture and a graduate
degree in historic preservationfrom UT, so that's how I got to
Texas and historic preservationis kind of a loaded term, but
the way that I consider it is aform of retaining materials,
stories, cultural heritage inour cities, and San Antonio is
probably the best city in thecountry to be working in this
(05:37):
field.
The past five years or so theterm embodied carbon has become
more synonymous with historicpreservation and essentially
what embodied carbon is is allof the energy and time and
effort and materials that wentinto constructing our buildings.
So the bricks that hold up thisbuilding, the wood that holds
(05:58):
up our houses, is a form ofembodied carbon, and all of that
energy is locked into thosematerials.
So it's already been expended.
And this is in contrast tooperational energy, which I
think a lot more people arefamiliar with, or operational
carbon, which is the energyrequired to power and cool and
run our buildings.
So I kind of look at asembodied carbon as a way to
(06:22):
retain that energy that alreadyexists, so making sure that our
buildings can stand and beadapted instead of demolished
and thrown away, whichnecessitates even more energy to
be expended after.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Well, so how did you get there?
You know working now indeconstruction when, from what I
understand what I could do,your original interest was in
interior design.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, so I have a professional degree in interior
design.
But pretty early on in thateducation I realized that I was
more interested in working withexisting buildings versus, you
know, getting a floor plan anddesigning in a bubble or
designing for anywhere USA, andpart of that was because of my
(07:09):
environment.
I went to undergraduate at theUniversity of Wisconsin-Madison
and they have one of the mostincredible pedestrian only main
thoroughfares in State Streetand it's just lined with older
buildings.
It's kind of the textbookexample of how we built our
cities before we catered to cars.
So I always loved, you know,working with those buildings and
(07:32):
imagining repurposing thoseinstead of creating something
brand new.
And from that I pursued mygraduate degree in historic
preservation, originally topotentially become an interior
architect or architect thatfocused on adaptive reuse.
But I learned pretty quickly aswell that I didn't want to be
an architect.
I was more interested in thecommunity engagement piece that
(07:54):
came with urban planning,working with communities
directly and having, you know,kind of seeing the impact of
your work in real time, whichisn't always possible when
you're designing a building,because the lead time, for that
takes a while, so I that's kindof how I transitioned into that
space.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And so growing up, was there any sort of I don't
know upbringing influence orwhat have you to encourage you
to think about our builtenvironment in a different way?
Can you track that back in anysort of way?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I really do think like the kicker was in college.
I grew up in the suburb ofMilwaukee in 1970s, 1980s, like
track suburb and my parentsstill own the house I grew up in
.
Like it's very nostalgic and myhometown is very important to
me, but I kind of learned afterbeing exposed to a city like
(08:52):
Madison and living in thatdowntown experience that this is
the environment that I thrivein, especially because it offers
more diversity of experienceand people and connections in a
more concentrated space and youdon't need a car to do it.
So I think that's really wheremy love for resource use and,
(09:15):
you know, connecting people andurban planning and policymaking
for a sustainable world kind ofpopped into my head.
And a lot of that is actuallyretroactive thinking.
I never thought I would work inlocal government ever, even
after I graduated grad school.
But when I think back to all ofthe things that I was innately
curious about, it makes a lot ofsense why I'm here.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, and then from Midwest down to Texas, and now,
specifically, san Antonio.
What is it like, then, to beworking not only in local
government, but local governmenthere in San Antonio?
How do you feel being in theposition that you are?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I feel incredibly fortunate.
I think San Antonio is one ofthe best places to be in a lot
of ways and for me I went tograduate school in Austin and I
was there from 2013 to 2015 andthat's kind of right around the
cusp of like the boom that weassociate with Austin's like
rapid growth, and it's reallyinteresting to come down here
(10:12):
and be a part of that now andsee what that meant in Austin
without really the strategiesand the tools to mitigate growth
and kind of balance theenvironmental integrity of a
city, the cultural, historic,physical buildings of that city.
We've kind of always seen likethat moving down the corridor in
.
San Antonio.
So since 2017, I've been sofortunate to be in a role and an
(10:36):
apartment that plays such a bigpart in how our city is planned
and growing, and facilitatethose conversations with
architects, developers,community members growing and
facilitate those conversationswith architects, developers,
community members.
(10:56):
It's just an incredibleplayground in a way to work and
live.
Okay, you'll immediately noticethat we don't have air
conditioning in here yet Iwanted to show this house
because we're able todemonstrate the Living Heritage
Trades Academy effect, like Jesswas mentioning.
So all of these windows havebeen restored by our Trades
Academy and you'll kind of sensethat from some of the glass
like remnants of that.
But this is also one of thebigger houses on campus.
(11:18):
This is where the generals andtheir families used to live, so
you know the major people onthis campus when it was active.
And right now we describe theinterior as 90s funeral home
vibes.
But I promise there's likehardwood flooring under here,
like very, it's very intact.
So in the near term, one of ourgoals, in conjunction with Port
(11:40):
San Antonio, is to restore thishouse and make it a functional
office space, and you'll see inthe next bungalow it's pretty
similar.
But you'll see what we meanabout our dream tool library
because there are tons of toolsin there.
Let's go over here.
So we kind of describe thesehouses in their current life as
(12:02):
a learning lab, which is why ourTrades Academy gets to play
with all of these windows.
And then this was one of thefirst places that we started
taking donated buildingmaterials, like before our
deconstruction ordinance, beforewe had the garage that we'll
visit.
So all of these windows you cankind of see like this unique
(12:22):
curve on here, came from achurch in downtown um, st mark's
, when the like administrationbuilding was being renovated.
So the contractor was like wehave 136 wood windows that we're
going to throw away, like, doyou want them?
And one of our like toxictraits is to say yes whenever
people are getting rid ofmaterials.
So, um, some of these andyou'll see, have been repurposed
(12:47):
in different ways or have beenreinstalled here or reinstalled
in other affordable housing ortrades projects.
So we are very happy to takethese materials to reuse them in
the future.
And then over here are thingsthat people usually don't see
(13:09):
with old windows, and these arewindow weights.
So we have all different sizes.
And it's kind of nice for usbecause when we were doing like
restoration projects back in theday, we would have to kind of
like search for these for ourcontractors, and now we're like
building a stash for them to belike if you need these to
(13:29):
restore something.
We have them for you.
These are so cool.
We love window weights.
We kind of use this example ofwindow weights and ropes as
these windows were designed tobe repaired.
So windows are always a bigthing with preservation, but
they're really like a greatlittle part of a building to
(13:51):
demonstrate Like these werereally designed to be repaired
by people over the years.
So that's kind of what we teachin our courses.
It's just you don't have tothrow everything away.
If it's a little bit broken,we'll teach you how to fix it.
Windows are just a fractionusually less than 20% of energy
loss in a building.
Most of it comes from thefoundation and the roof.
(14:12):
So we spend a lot of time,especially like we both live in
older houses.
My house was built in 1925 andis a landmark.
So I kind of talk about likethese are the exact things that
happen in my house and we'reactually doing a demonstration
project with the Neighborhoodand Housing Services Department
right now where we're storingall of the original wood windows
(14:33):
but then implementingtraditional features like the
screens yes, so screens, sonatural ways that we've been
doing all of our years toprevent heat gain.
And then things like trees,like a lot of people don't think
about trees as a strategy toreduce heat gain, especially on
the East and West.
And then interior window inserts.
(14:54):
You know um film that you caninstall on inside of windows.
And we have a UTSA like PhDstudent that's energy modeling,
and she was like if we replacethese windows, the difference
would be negligible.
So a lot of what we do is kindof that counter education of
like we don't have anything tosell you.
(15:15):
We're not big window.
Rather, we're encouraging youto reinvest in what already
exists on your house that hasbeen there for, in cases like
these, over 100 years.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And then we also try to like talk to people in a
roundabout way about embodiedenergy of them as well, like the
labor that it costs to makethese.
The quality of the wood, sothese windows, because they're
old growth wood, are moreresistant to things like water
damage, mold, termites, otherkinds of pests, and so it's
really like a higher qualityproduct.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I think in the lifespan of like a traditional
replacement window, now, likethere's a limited warranty for a
reason right, like 10 yearlimited warranty If you paint
them, if you sell the house, ifyou try to fix it wrong like
it's void.
So in the lifespan of one ofthese windows you'll have to
replace your windows like fourto five times.
And so that's been a reallyinteresting shift and like we
(16:10):
are seeing this trend in thearchitecture industry of like oh
wait, like throwing awaymaterials is actually not great
for the earth, especiallybecause construction and
demolition waste is the largestsource of waste in the world and
demolition waste is the largestsource of waste in the world.
So, talking about embodiedenergy in conjunction with
operational energy and how wekind of mesh that in a way that
(16:31):
makes sense for specificbuildings and specific climate,
Could you give us an explanationof what the day-to-day looks
like for your position andperhaps what that connects, or
specifically the deconstructionordinance that you already
mentioned?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Can you give us greater detail as to what that
is, what the implications arefor our city and how that ties
to your day-to-day?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
in 2017, I was a senior case manager for our
Landmarks Commission, so workingwith architects and homeowners
on decisions that they weremaking with their properties and
helping them navigate thosedecisions.
And right around that time, citycouncil issued a council
consideration request to ourdepartment and our peer
departments, like developmentservices, to look at all of the
demolition policies that were onthe books, and this was largely
(17:29):
in response to a communityeffort around the pace and
location of primarily singlefamily and missing middle
housing that was being morereadily demolished as the city
started to grow right.
So that was a really biginflection point from a policy
perspective and thoseconstituents kind of advocated
to their city council member toyou know, see, can we be doing
(17:54):
something better from a cityadministration standpoint around
demolition?
And from that came the idea ofa potential deconstruction
policy or program and what thatmeans.
So, as buildings are goingthrough the process, the
decision making, the permittingprocess to be demolished or be
removed, there are a fewinflection points where,
(18:14):
especially in our office, wehave community members coming to
us saying we actually need tosave this building.
This building is reallyimportant to us, but it may not
have historic protections, soit's really really difficult to
stop the removal of thatbuilding.
And this is some of thetestimony that we heard in those
early days of this policydiscussion is, you know, one day
(18:35):
I could see a building thatreally means something to me and
the next day it's smashed andgone and that can be really
fracturing and almost violentfor communities if that critical
resource that has been part oftheir living heritage honestly
for a long time is just gone,and from that came the idea of
(18:55):
deconstruction, which is slowingdown the demolition process.
It's basically unbuilding abuilding in the opposite way it
was constructed, or reverseengineering.
So instead of heavy machinerysmashing a building and throwing
it into a landfill, in a matterof days you have people slowly
dismantling from the roof downto the foundation and salvaging
(19:16):
those materials for reuse.
So that's the process that wewanted to see more of.
I think some of the bestpolicies, especially at the
local level, come out of theidea of there is something
happening in my community that Idon't think is right and I
don't think is benefiting me,and this is just one of those
examples.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Well, I mean, it seems that there's a much
greater opportunity, followingmore intentional deconstruction,
to keep some culturalcontinuity, as it seems.
You're saying um, mybrother-in-law uh calls one of
the the new styles of, likemodular developments, space
barns.
You know, I think we're allkind of familiar with that.
Look, austin's really prevalentwith them, san antonio's
(19:57):
getting its fair share of them,uh.
But you kind of imagine 20 to30 years down the line thinking
like, oh, that's gonna.
It stands out currently likekind of you know, a sore thumb
but it doesn't really fit, youknow, in the style and it's
something that's really kind oftemplated.
And you start to see it,whether you're in Boise, idaho,
another city where I have familylive, growing very fast and
(20:20):
changing Austin or San Antonio,and that, you know, breaks my
heart a little bit.
But I'm curious, what would yousay to someone who hears that
and says like that is a reallygood idea, it's a pleasant idea,
but to me, someone slowlydeconstructing a building and
salvaging materials, that soundsmaybe inconvenient and maybe
(20:41):
expensive.
What would you say to someonewith that kind of response?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, so our deconstruction ordinance was
adopted in 2022, and we startedtalking about a policy in 2017,
2018.
So we spent about four and ahalf years kind of interrogating
those exact questions with adeconstruction advisory
committee which had anyone fromour real estate council which is
, you know, the development arm,advocacy arm of San Antonio to
(21:09):
environmental advocates,preservation advocates, solid
waste and affordable housingexperts, and I loved that.
I think it's such a great toolto develop policy because you
have a lot of people comingtogether in a room pretty
consistently that would nevershare space with each other, or
very rarely, and that affordsthe ability for those people to
(21:30):
hear each other out and say youknow, this may slow down my
development process, but anotherperson may say, okay, and it's
going to benefit our environment, we're going to have more
access to building materials inour community and it allows
those people to have thosediscussions.
So we kind of almost in a way,held space for those
conversations to happen andstood back and said what would a
(21:53):
policy look like for SanAntonio specifically, versus
like copying one from adifferent city?
So that's so time and cost Idon't think is something that is
ameliorated by this policy orby deconstruction in general,
it's always going to be aconcern, but in the same way
that we talk about any otherdevelopment and environmental
policy, it's like what are welosing, or who is getting the
(22:19):
brunt of the negativeexternalities?
To save $3,000 or to save fourdays of time?
And the answer to that, throughour research, through our
engagement, through connectingwith our city council members
and our constituents, was thecommunity.
Demolition is, like I mentioned,violent and fracturing.
(22:40):
It is a form of air pollution.
Even if you do it best byspraying down a site, it is a
form of air pollution.
You know, even if you do itbest by spraying down a site,
you have particulate matterspreading 200, 400, 600 yards
away from a site.
I always say demolition doesn'thappen in a bubble and
demolition happens to buildingsbut it also happens to people.
So you know, spraying down asite, that particular matter can
(23:03):
get into our groundwater andit's just something that we as a
society have been kind ofconditioned to accept.
Because I know in my generationI never knew anything different
than demolition to removebuildings right.
Like I loved climbing on coolbulldozers and playing pocket
games when I was growing up.
That was just something thatyou constantly saw.
But when you recognize howdamaging that way of removing
(23:27):
buildings can be, it becomesreally challenging to justify it
in any way.
I love our department and likewhat's happening in San Antonio
for a lot of reasons, but Ithink why we've found a lot of
success, especially in thecontext of national audiences,
like San Antonio is looked at askind of the leader in municipal
(23:50):
historic preservation becauseof that holistic approach.
You can't regulate somethingwithout the ability for the
community to find that resource.
So I think I've been here forover seven years, jess has been
here for over six years, right,and when I started I know that
(24:11):
we had sometimes had issues withcustomers finding, for example,
wood window restorationcontractors.
But now that doesn't happenbecause of our trades academy,
right, like we've, I want to say, almost double the amount of
people that are working in thisspace through education, and
that's like a testament toworkforce development is kind of
(24:32):
a key to reversing, like thetrend of like oh, it's broke,
let's throw it away that lineareconomy approach.
Okay, so you'll notice a lot ofsimilarities in the funeral
home vibe, but we have tools inhere, and the reason why I want
(24:53):
to point this out is because alot of these tools weren't just
bought for the purpose of like afuture tool library but were
collected over the years for ourtrainings, especially our
deconstruction contractortraining, which we launched
about five years ago.
So you'll see things likeshovels and weed eaters, but
also things like crowbars anddemolition hammers.
(25:14):
And San Antonio is one of thelargest cities in the country
that doesn't have a communitytool library.
So our sister nonprofit isgoing to develop that, either in
this bungalow or a bungalowthat will pass down the street.
So we're really excited becausewe've learned from working with
customers a lot that you knowtools are expensive Like my
(25:36):
husband's still mad at mebecause I bought a circular saw
to do one craft for OHP and it'ssitting on our porch because we
don't have anywhere to store itand it's, you know, sometimes
tools are single use.
So if we can kind of mitigateaccess to that and distribute
them to people that need them,even temporarily, we'll feel
like we're, you know, scratchingaway the barriers to home
(25:56):
repair.
Because especially in SanAntonio, in our work of
reviewing every demolitionpermit in the entire city which
is what Jess does, which can bedepressing sometimes, but then
also working with ourdeconstruction ordinance is that
a majority, especially ofhouses that are coming in for
demolition, are being requestedbecause of deferred maintenance
(26:17):
right over 10, 20, 30 years.
So if we can kind of stave thatoff at the source, we'll see
less and less requests to demo.
The goal of our Trades Academyand kind of our partnership with
Port San Antonio is that oncethey fix this house, we're just
going to keep moving down thestreet and, you'll see, as we
(26:41):
get further down the street thehouses get a little bit more
shabby chic, as I like to callit.
So we're really excited about,you know, continuing to keep
moving and using these houses aslearning labs.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
The world was Stephanie's kind of utopian
vision, at least San Antoniospecifically.
And deconstruction was theblanket policy and the way in
which we operated with buildingsthat had maybe seen the extent
(27:24):
of their useful life needed toscaling deconstruction so that
we could apply it on a citywidelevel, a region level.
What's in our way from beingable to do that?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I love that question because we get a lot of
questions about are we expandingour ordinance?
Are we including commercial,are we looking into newer
buildings?
And there are a few citiesacross the country who have
deconstruction regulations forevery single building in their
city.
A few of them are Boulder,colorado, and Palo Alto,
california, and they're aimingto have 85% diversion rates, in
(28:02):
some cases for the entirety ofthe building, and it's so
incredible and something that Ithink we hope to aspire to.
Of course, if you knowgeographies and know city size,
those are a lot smaller citiesthan San Antonio, so you have to
start somewhere.
I think some key barriers toscaling it are workforce.
That's such a big component ofour program is workforce
(28:24):
training, because in order toeffectively regulate a policy,
you need to make sure that youhave the people that can do the
work on behalf of people thatare hiring them.
So even before, well before,several years before we adopted
our ordinance, we launched ourcertified deconstruction
contractor training program,where we bring in a national
trainer we typically hireRepurpose Savannah, which is an
(28:47):
all women plus leddeconstruction nonprofit in
Savannah, georgia, that trainspeople how to fully remove
buildings but then also givesthem the tools to launch their
own reuse center so they takedown buildings and they also
sell those materials to theircommunities.
So they're actually going to behere in October leading to more
cohorts of deconstructioncontractor training programs so
(29:10):
we can get even more peoplelocally to do that work.
And I think another barrier isactually just how the way we
built buildings changed prettyrapidly after World War II.
So currently our deconstructionordinance requires buildings
built, houses built before 1945in certain areas to be
(29:30):
deconstructed.
And that was a very strategicdate because after World War II
you started to see a lot moremass production introduced and a
lot more things that make itdifficult to unbuild a building,
like glues, mastics, staplesbasically gluing a bunch of
building materials together,which is very different than
kind of the Lincoln Logsstrategy of how we used to build
(29:53):
buildings before World War II.
So we're kind of thinking aboutthat as well.
There are a few companies andresearchers across the country
that are figuring out ways to dothat, which is super exciting,
and I hope we'll be able tobring some of that technology
and workforce training to SanAntonio to scale it in the
future.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
And does your department have?
I mean, you mentioned theSavannah organization for one is
there something of a nationalnetwork that you feel like
you're developing or havedeveloped in these conversations
around deconstruction?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Absolutely.
I always say that we would havenever been able to achieve our
deconstruction ordinance, whichI can't believe I haven't said
yet is the largest in NorthAmerica.
We are the largest city inNorth America to have a
deconstruction ordinance, whichI always like to say because we
are in San Antonio and everytime I come across someone on
the West Coast or the East Coastor Canada or across the world
(30:47):
that hasn't heard about ourpolicy, they're like Texas.
Really and.
I'm like hell yeah in Texas.
So we learned so much from thecity of Portland, oregon.
They were the first city inNorth America to adopt a policy
like this in 2016.
And I have to get a shout outto Sean Wood.
He was basically my equivalentat the city of Portland and he's
(31:08):
now at the EPA helping citiesand communities with low carbon
materials.
He really helped us.
You know approach our policyeffort and that kind of made me
realize that the only way thatwe're going to affect local
change and something that's sonew is through the resource
sharing and partnership ofcommunities around the country.
(31:31):
So I sit on the board of anational nonprofit called Build
Reuse and it's the majornonprofit in the United States
that seeks to turn constructionand demolition waste into local
resources.
So that has been my network andmy safe space, if you will, to
kind of get out of my bubble andlearn more about how other
(31:51):
people are approaching thisreally important topic.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
And so you may have mentioned it already, but
specifically, the ordinancerequires deconstruction for
buildings built before 1945.
Is that the extent of theordinance and then a follow-up
on that.
If you were to take it furtherand maybe it is completely
conditional, based off of theresearch and the strategy
necessary to be able todeconstruct other buildings that
(32:18):
were built at different erasbut where would you take it
further?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So right now we have three phases of the ordinance
that were adopted in 2022.
So we're currently in thesecond phase and that states
that any residential buildingfourplex or smaller, so down to
single family built in 1920anywhere in the city has to be
deconstructed and 1945 inhistoric districts and
(32:41):
neighborhood conservationdistricts, so kind of those
protected zoning overlays.
But our ordinance is actuallyexpanding into its final phase,
january 1 of 2025, and that willexpand to 1945 and earlier
anywhere in the city and go upto eight plex and smaller so
kind of that missing middlehousing if it's coming down and
1960 and earlier in thoseprotected districts.
(33:04):
So we're starting to creep intosome of those newer buildings
and part of the reason why it'sso strategically, you know, slow
growth.
I always say that we wanted totake like bite-sized pieces out
of our demolition stream to makesure that our workforce and our
reuse ecosystem was growing.
(33:25):
Alongside the regulation, we'veseen some communities across
the country that bit off morethan they could chew and maybe
didn't invest in workforcedevelopment or wanted to do
every single building rightwithout those strategic
investments and they've had topause or stay their ordinances
because it just was too much ofa disruption.
So ours is very intentional andit is very much rooted in the
(33:49):
realities.
In San Antonio we looked at 10years of demolition data to see
can we hone in on a build dateand a building type and a
building year that started with33% and then grew to 45% and
then grew to 65% of housingdemolitions to be incremental in
that strategic way.
So I think it was smart, eventhough the environmentalist in
(34:13):
me wanted to be like let's geteverything.
So I think my dream and where wemight go in the future this
would require a future ordinanceand a ton more in community
engagement.
Basically restarting what wedid five years ago is looking
into commercial structures andpotentially looking into major
renovations of buildings.
(34:33):
A lot of construction anddemolition waste is generated
through gut rehabs.
So we do have a lot ofcommunity members coming to us
saying I see dumpsters anddumpsters in old homes next to
me that are being completelygutted and that material is just
as valuable as a house that'sbeing fully removed.
What can we do?
So I think hopefully in thenear future we'll be able to
(34:55):
restart those conversations.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
So demolition is one category, renovation another one
, and then that betweenresidential and commercial.
Is there anything thatstretches to the prospect of
conditions for what new buildslook like one way or another,
residential or commercial or isthat?
Would that be a differentdepartment?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I think that we may co-lead on that.
I'm so glad you asked thatbecause that's also kind of on
our radar 2% of their budgetinto public art for a new
building, and we're thinking 2%reclaimed materials and some
(35:46):
sort of visible aspect of thebuilding like an overhang or
cladding or even reuse materialsfor public art.
So what?
I always say that thedeconstruction ordinance is kind
of focused on the supply side,making sure that we're
intercepting all of thesemillions of tons of materials
that are going to the landfilland redirecting them back into
(36:07):
our communities so they can beproductively used.
And then what you're describingis more on the demand side.
How can we generate moreincentives or more regulations
to inspire or require people tothink reuse first instead of
relying on virgin materials?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Right, and so where do we feel like we are in that
establishing that supply chain?
Is there just by no meansenough supply, or is there a
mismatch in the level of demandright now?
It's interesting how that'sjust a completely different
supply chain, a much morelocalized one, hyper localized
(36:44):
supply chain.
But where are we, do you thinkin that system, flowing more
smoothly?
Yeah.
Where's the choke point?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I think a big barrier right now is volume and
consistency, and this is wherethe Material Innovation Center
comes in a little bit is that wework.
I love, I love working witharchitects.
I love chatting the ear off ofdesigners and specifiers, asking
them those questions to specifyreclaimed.
(37:13):
But when we think about largebuildings like community centers
or apartment buildings, thatrequires a lot of material and a
lot of consistent material, andpart of the charm and
excitement of reclaimed buildingmaterials is kind of the
(37:34):
uniqueness of those.
But when you're so used to anarchitecture industry that
relies on volume and consistency, that is a remarkable barrier.
And that's not just a SanAntonio thing, it's really a
worldwide thing.
So I think we do have a lotmore work to do here to you know
, offer more storage or offermore investment, or incentivize
(37:58):
more startups and establishbuilding material innovators to
invest in San Antonio and makeit a circular city for our built
environment, to address thosetwo key barriers volume and
consistency.
Every time we open these it's anew adventure.
(38:20):
Okay, so this is where we startgetting into.
Feel free to come in the superfun stuff.
So every single one of thesegarage bays has material in it.
(38:41):
That wasn't the case, like evenjust a few months ago.
But I want to point out thisgarage first.
So all of these houses at leastsome of them, or maybe all of
them were built using salvagematerials, which is like a
really amazing like context,like closing that loop.
(39:03):
Some of the houses we foundlike boards in the top that say
Hagerstown, maryland, which wasan Air Force but is an Air Force
base, and I think the port hasconfirmed that a lot of that
lumber has come from shippingcrates that were shipping like
airplane airplane parts to KellyField when it was active during
World War I.
(39:23):
So that lumber has made it intothese buildings.
So we like to kind of likepoint that out as we're talking
about this campus, because it'snot like that unique to use what
you already have on hand,especially if it's already had
one use.
So that's a really fun,serendipitous moment and you can
kind of see it like we'll seeit in a few other bays, like you
can tell that some lumber waslike cobbled together when this
(39:44):
was constructed and we've hadstructural engineers out here
being like they don't build thislike this anymore.
Like it may look like a hauntedhouse from the outside but it
is solid as a rock.
So we love this garage.
So we get donated buildingmaterials from contractors, even
(40:05):
homeowners, to this site.
We also take materials fromdeconstruction training sites
where we actually like trainpeople to take down an entire
building, which we're doing inOctober, which your students
should come to, and this is someof that from, like, a house
that we took down a few yearsago.
This is a bunch of donated gymflooring from one of our
contractors which we'll figureout how to use at some point.
(40:29):
But I think the golden materialsthat we as the city are
consistently using are reclaimedsiding like this.
This is waterfall siding, supercommon in.
So our office has a programcalled Rehab-O-Rama where we are
able to connect contractorswith deeply existing affordable
(40:50):
housing to repair them, and thenour neighborhood and housing
services department uses HUDfunding to do similar projects.
Those ones are like basicallycompletely rehabbing an existing
building and we've already beenable to matchmake materials
like we're facilitators in a lotof ways.
So if we see a project that isgoing to be deconstructed, we'll
(41:12):
connect with the contractor andsay, hey, like we need x linear
feet of this siding to repair abuilding that nhsd needs
restored, and they'll be likeokay, we'll donate it to you and
then we'll plug that in to theproject.
So we've actually seen thathappen a few times already.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Where might there be some other savings for us in
using more of these reclaimedmaterials that we wouldn't
otherwise consider?
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, I think one aspect that I pretty
consistently think about is thatif we use more of the materials
that are readily available inour communities I started
referring to, like our houses,like the ones that are being
deconstructed as urban forestsbecause they were constructed of
old growth lumber, you know,that was felled hundreds of
(42:06):
years ago and they grew forthousands of years in some ways,
and if we use more reclaimedmaterials, it reduces the demand
for virgin materials, whetherthat be virgin forests and
virgin lumber or, more commonlyright now in our society is
plastic and petroleum basedbuilding materials.
(42:28):
So I think that's one thing thatwe try to elevate more often is
that if you go more reclaimedand if we do that more as a
society, then we're leveragingmore of the resources that
already exist to your pointhyperlocally, instead of relying
on mining our earth for more.
So, I think that's oneinteresting way of considering
(42:49):
it.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
And so do you imagine that, like the sticker shock
would be too high for developersor anything like that from the
get-go, or perhaps with thegreater prevalence of reclaimed
materials that costs would godown greater prevalence of
reclaimed materials, that costswould go down.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, so I think COVID was a really big
eye-opener, if you recall, backin 2021, 2022, or if you blocked
it out, like me, which is greatfor our mental health.
But there was such a barrierprice-wise and access-wise for
construction materials because alot of people were pursuing
those kind of projects and, as aresult, supply chains were
(43:32):
choked in various different waysand, more importantly, lead
times just the time it wouldtake to access those materials
became longer and time is moneyin the development world.
So I think that was a really bigeye opener on, like how much we
rely on those worldwide supplychains and largely as a consumer
(43:52):
, as a homeowner myself like Ihave no idea where, like my West
Elm table came from, I have noidea where those materials had
to go or travel to be puttogether.
But if we're relying on thishyper local source, especially
now that we have more materialsentering the San Antonio
ecosystem because ofdeconstruction, it just makes us
(44:12):
more resilient as a communitywhen we're talking about access
to those materials.
So the more materials we havein our ecosystem instead of
going to the landfill, the moreaccessible they are and the more
affordable they can be.
So that's a really big focusfor us too.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
And so then, currently on the design and
build side architects,developers or otherwise is the
door open in some regard.
If they wanted to get involvedin using more reclaimed
materials and thinking aboutprojects that way, when would
they get started?
Do they reach out to you?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yes, I feel like I'm like a, not a call center, but
like I always get emailsmultiple times a week or calls
from both property owners andeven developers, like affordable
housing developers ordevelopers that are looking for
something that is uniquely SanAntonio right.
I also think this is a bit of adiversion, but just to
(45:11):
emphasize how I think ourbuilding industry and our design
industry is kind of shiftingaway from, like, the builder
grade style that was soprevalent in the past decade or
so into something that is morelocally true to where we are.
So we have a lot of peoplereaching out to us saying I want
to build a custom curtain wallout of reclaimed lumber from a
(45:35):
local building, because youcan't manufacture authenticity.
Or, more commonly, we haveproperty owners saying I need to
restore my home or I'm buildingin addition to my 1920s
building.
I want to use the same hardwood, I want to use the same siding,
I want to use similar doors.
Where can I find that?
(45:56):
And we're very fortunate to beable to point to a lot of
reclaimed stores anddeconstruction contractors that
can supply that for people.
So the door is consistentlyopen and one of my favorite
examples about deconstruction inpractice is, I said at the
beginning that demolitionhappens in a day or two.
It's very quick, it's veryviolent, it's very fracturing
(46:18):
and fracturing emotionally andphysically.
You're like splintering all ofthose materials.
You can't reuse them.
But when you slow down thatprocess, it's every single
deconstruction project withoutfail, especially in a dense
legacy community.
Neighbors shop this site.
I started comparing it to likeknocking on your neighbor's door
(46:39):
for a cup of sugar, but nowyou're knocking on your
neighbor's door for some shiplapor for some siding, and that
happens every single timebecause you're affording that
process to happen.
And that, to me, is thedefinition of a microcircular
economy.
Like you can't create a betterecosystem footprint wise than
that.
So the more we do that, themore people can access that.
(47:02):
And then I will say thatthere's a growing trend of
people just being more cognizantthat that's an option.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Well, and it seems like with that opportunity just
to be able to more sensibly useand reuse the materials that
exist within your own community,your own ecosystem, seems like
a much greater sense of pridecan grow in the built
environment that surrounds you.
Like you said, it's alreadysomething that can be so
(47:30):
devastating as things aredemolished and changed and
something new is there that maynot have the same sort of
cohesive look and feel and kindof cultural character, and so it
seems like there's a greatopportunity for us, as San
Antonians, to take pride in thatand start to add a little bit
(47:53):
of our reclaimed materials toour new projects and renovations
and those kinds of things.
Stephanie, I'm curious to getto your work outside your day
job too, the nonprofitorganization that you co-founded
, and I'd like to get to that by, as well, framing it in a
question why do you think SanAntonio and maybe already
(48:17):
layered through our conversationthus far, but why do you think
this city, is so apt andwell-suited to advance this
movement for a more circulareconomy?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Circular.
San Antonio, like you mentioned, is a non-profit organization
that really seeks to help SanAntonio transition to a more
circular city, and what thatreally means is to tip the
scales in favor of reuse insteadof kind of the linear economy
that we're used to, which issingle use over consumption, a
lot of waste.
And that is not just a SanAntonio problem, it's a
(48:50):
worldwide problem.
But I know from my own work andworking locally and kind of
leveraging the skills and energyof our community and the
talents as well, is that if wecome together for this common
cause, we can move that needle.
And I think that San Antonio isthe perfect city for this to
(49:10):
happen, because we value ourexisting resources in a very
unique way compared to othercities that I've visited or I've
lived in, and I think some ofthat stems from the big city,
small town identity that we'reso proud of, where people are
connected to literally everyone.
It shocks me every day, inevery conversation that I have,
(49:33):
is that there's six degrees ofeveryone that lives in San
Antonio and so there's alreadythis kind of cohesive network of
people being able to tap intotheir skills and abilities and
interests.
But then I also think it stemsfrom, honestly, the fact that
we're a world heritage city andthere's such an important
identity tied to our culturalheritage, and I mean every
(49:57):
single layer of our culturalheritage, even if it's a little
bit messy and complicated,because that identity that we've
been able to maintain in ourbuilt environment and our
cultural legacy is thefoundation for us to continue to
reinvest in what makes usunique and what drives our local
industries.
So one big thing that CircularSan Antonio is trying to do is
(50:21):
elevate the businesses that aretruly local.
San Antonio is trying to do iselevate the businesses that are
truly local right.
So we think about the shoecobblers, the seamstresses, the
many general contractors thatrehab our existing buildings,
the deconstruction contractorsthat we're building up locally.
These are people that live here, that work here, that pay taxes
here, that spend money here andbelieve that San Antonio is
(50:42):
where they want to be.
And if we invest in more ofthose people in those industries
, you know that's whatcircularity is.
So I think leveraging kind ofthe identity and the community
and the cohesion that is sounique to this city is the key
to unlocking more reefs.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
I love that.
Well, and Stephanie, I'mcurious for more reefs.
I love that, well, and,stephanie, I'm curious for folks
listening or watching.
What are some physical projectsthat exist in San Antonio?
If someone was curious to seethis very tangibly, either from
what you think really emphasizescircularity, the principles of
circularity, or, likewise,deconstruction, what's something
(51:22):
that someone could go see inSan Antonio that would reflect
that?
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I think a really big example is something that our
office launched a few years ago,which is called our Living
Heritage Trades Academy.
So related to circularity andhaving a workforce to reinvest
in our buildings.
Related to circularity andhaving a workforce to reinvest
in our buildings most of thepeople that work in construction
trades are 45 or older.
(51:49):
And out of 100 people on aconstruction site, only one is a
woman.
So these two dimensions areintertwined in a lot of
different ways and the only waythat we can really make sure
(52:11):
that these resources stay aroundis to invest in the people that
dedicate their time and craftand skill to doing that work.
So we offer a lot of differentemployment pathways through our
Trades Academy, whether it'sreusing windows, restoring
windows, doing deconstruction,training.
But we also have a lot ofcommunity workshops where, even
if you don't want this to beyour business, but you want to
learn a little bit more abouthow your house works and lives
and breathes and ages that'swhat we're here for.
So I'm always about elevating,kind of the hands-on way for
(52:31):
people to play and learn.
So I think that's one big waythat people can get involved.
But then I always encouragepeople to stop by and kind of
just watch a house beingrestored or a house being
deconstructed, because you canlearn so much about that
incredible trade and maybe seesome things that you've never
seen before, like a lumber stampor a weird archaeological find,
(52:54):
like a kerosene lamp that's inyour front yard, which is
something that actually happenedto me.
So there's just so much touncover by learning more about
how our buildings are restoredand the materials kept in our
environment, construction andthe possibilities of circularity
(53:26):
advancing in San Antonio.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
If you could wave a magic wand and embed one bit of
understanding, or one kind ofeye-opening learning for general
San Antonians, what would thatbe?
What would you want people tosee or understand that is
possible in San Antonio thatthey may not currently?
Speaker 1 (53:42):
The landfill doesn't deserve these materials.
Our communities do, and ofcourse I connect that with
building materials, but it couldmean any material that we so
readily throw away, whether it'splastic or clothes or
electronics, and really thinkingabout how those systems don't
have to be the way they are.
(54:02):
And a lot of the solutions liein our backyard.
We don't have to be the waythey are and a lot of the
solutions lie in our backyard.
We don't have to rely onfederal laws, although those
would be awesome but we can kindof seek to reorient those
really wasteful systems just byleveraging our own skills and
connections here.
So I just always challengepeople to look at what is unseen
(54:27):
, which is typically our wastesystem, where you put stuff at
the front of your yard or theback of your yard and somehow it
magically disappears and younever see it again.
To think about how we canrestructure those systems and
keep those materials for us,Because you can't build a
community around a landfill.
You can definitely buildcommunity around sharing and
reuse.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
San Antonio, I think, is a scrappy city, one whose
citizens pride themselves ontheir resourcefulness and, in
some ways too, frugality.
As a city, we seem tounderstand the phrase what's old
is new again better than most.
We watch cities across thestate and country, chase what's
modern and multiply.
(55:19):
Whether it's Washington, idaho,colorado or Texas, you can walk
through some neighborhoods andnot know which state you're in.
Same aesthetic, same font onthe house number, maybe even a
Tesla in the driveway For ourhomes, our buildings, libraries,
office spaces, schools orwhatever else.
There's no need or desire forus to have some modern look,
(55:43):
just a San Antonio one.
Deconstruction and reuse allowus to act more in line with our
values as a city.
A city that values its heritage, its history and finds unique
and creative ways to tell thosestories in both our built and
lived environments.
A city that holds great valuein what is truly invaluable
(56:05):
Family, friends, fiesta, ourcommunity.
A city generous in spirit andservice, yet highly prudent with
materials, cautious andrightfully so about letting a
good thing go to waste.
I've seen that every time thecity's bulky item collection
week comes around.
San Antonio can and shouldbecome the circular city,
(56:27):
because we have a unique sharedidentity of doing things in and
for our community, a city thathonors, celebrates and explores
what's historic, what's timeless, while trends take hold
everywhere else.
By first seeing what can bedone, what can be achieved with
(56:48):
what's lying around, which feelsquintessentially San Antonio,
we can turn the linear approachof take, make and waste into a
loop, with every exit leadingback to San Antonio.
All right, y'all.
(57:20):
That's a wrap for this episodeof Ensemble Texas.
I want to extend an additionalthank you to our guest today,
stephanie Phillips, for sharingher expertise and passion for
building a more circular SanAntonio.
It's inspiring to hear aboutthe strides we're making toward
a city that values reuse overwaste, whether that's through
deconstruction or broadercircular economy initiatives.
As Stephanie reminded us, thelandfill doesn't deserve our
(57:41):
materials.
Our communities do.
It's a powerful call to action,especially as San Antonio
continues to grow and evolve.
We can preserve our culture,create jobs and build a more
sustainable future, all byrethinking how we handle what we
(58:03):
often call waste.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, don't forget to
check out Circular San Antonioand the city's deconstruction
programs.
You can find links in the shownotes or visit
podcastsensembletexascom formore information.
Lastly, if you're not alreadysubscribed, join me each week as
we dive deeper into the people,places and stories shaping San
(58:27):
Antonio's future.
Sign up for our newsletters atEnsembleTexascom to stay
connected, and if you're abusiness or organization
interested in sponsoring orcollaborating with Ensemble
Texas, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Drop us an email at sponsor atEnsembleTexascom to explore how
we can work together.
Thanks for listening orwatching.
(58:47):
Until next time.
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