July 23, 2025 • 41 mins
Iain Morrison - Beyond Burnout: The True Cost of Event Excellence
With over 35 years in the event industry, Iain Morrison has seen the effect the industry can have on people first-hand. This week on EventNewsDXB, the founder of The Imagination Collaborative opens up about the pressures facing today’s event professionals - from resource cuts to unrealistic timelines and the silent mental health toll that comes with them.
Iain shares his own experiences with burnout, why the industry’s "just push through" mindset no longer works and why he's not afraid to speak up and get the conversation started. Iain shares his own journey, the patterns he’s noticed across the sector and how leaders can take practical steps to create healthier working environments - from better planning and structure to simply giving people the space to speak up.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone feeling the pressure, anyone leading a team, or anyone who believes there’s a better way to deliver great events -without burning out in the process.
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Production Credits:
Presented by: Ian Carless
Studio Engineer & Editor: Roy D'Monte
Executive Producers: Ian Carless & Joe Morrison
Produced by: EventNewsDXB & W4 Podcast Studio
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ian Carless (00:00):
Ian.
Welcome to the podcast, ianthank you for having me.
We're not going to forget eachother's names here are we.
Hopefully not, ian.
And Ian, your spelling isslightly different to mine,
though.
I'm the traditional I-A-N and Ihave the blessing of being
Scottish.
Iain Morrison (00:13):
Well, I'm not.
I'm Australian, but my parents,from England, chose Scottish
spelling because Morrison beingScottish, heritage.
Ian Carless (00:22):
Of course, I spent my whole life trying to explain
why the second eye sits.
Iain Morrison (00:33):
How do you pronounce that eye off together?
Yeah, exactly, so a lot of thetime in America, I'll use Fred.
Ian Carless (00:37):
Well, let's dive in , shall we?
I mean, we don't usually wastetime at the head of the podcast,
so how did you get into events?
Iain Morrison (00:44):
I started very young.
At school I had to take part inthe school theatre play and I
think I was about 11 or 12 atthe time and I didn't want to be
on stage and so the only otheroption was to be backstage.
And I fell in love with it andas I went into senior school I
(01:05):
was very lucky.
We had an amazing schooltheatre and an amazing school
theatre program, yeah, and Igrew up through my teens working
in theatre, but then a lot ofkids that were a bit older than
me were working professionallyas well, just pushing road cases
and doing whatever they couldon gigs, and I just got into
working in the industry that wayand I was really fortunate that
(01:29):
.
You know, we had this greattheatre.
We did some amazing bigproductions and school plays and
dances and things and I got anintroduction to the industry and
I never left.
I went to university, studiedstage management at university,
decided I did not want to be astage manager.
I knew that I'd tick that box.
Ian Carless (01:50):
All stage managers were out there going well what's
wrong with that?
Iain Morrison (01:52):
Just not for you Stage managers credit to you.
But yeah, it wasn't going to befor me.
So I got a job just out ofuniversity working as a
mechanist building sets at theOpera House, went on to be a
rigger and worked for OperaAustralia for quite a long time
there and then got into myproper events career in the late
(02:12):
90s.
Ian Carless (02:13):
Right?
Well, listen, obviously I'd beremiss not to do a little bit of
research, so the first place Inormally start is your LinkedIn
page.
Okay, and to quote after 35years delivering some of the
world's biggest events, that's agreat start, isn't it?
35 years?
Iain Morrison (02:29):
Yeah, and I was thinking about this talking to
somebody the other day it'sactually a little bit longer
than 35 years.
Ian Carless (02:35):
Oh, showing your age now.
Iain Morrison (02:36):
Let's just call it 35 years.
Yeah, I've had a prettyfortunate career where I've got
to work with some really coolpeople on some really cool
events.
Ian Carless (02:45):
Just give us a brief overview because I know we
were talking just before thepodcast started.
You ran your own companies acouple of companies prior to
where you're at now andobviously we'll get on in a
short while to talk about theImagination Collaborative but
your first company was Hum, isthat right?
And then you went on to formRaging Empire.
Tell us a little bit aboutthose two ventures.
Iain Morrison (03:05):
In about the late 90s I got into corporate events
and I had a pretty good run incorporate events.
I was working at the time for afairly large company in Sydney
who are a public relations andcorporate event company and they
had a number of clients in theWorld Trade Center and also
Ansett in Australia, who were abig airline at the time, who
(03:28):
folded around September 11 aswell.
They went through a big justbefore Christmas, a big round of
redundancies and layoffsbecause the work had dried up
and I decided I didn't want towork for anyone anymore.
I wanted to be my own boss,decided I didn't want to work
for anyone anymore.
I wanted to be my own boss.
(03:48):
So I started a company and Icouldn't think of a name and Hum
sounded good enough.
So I registered that and wedelivered events site management
, operations, logistics,anything to do with the nuts and
bolts of delivering majorevents in Australia for a period
of just over 21 years and wedid some pretty good shows.
(04:12):
We did, you know, the likes ofU2s, Taylor Swift's, Foo
Fighters, big public events forup to 200,000 people in
Australia over the period andwas very fortunate thousand
people in Australia over theperiod and was very fortunate, I
sold it just before COVID, orwe did a deal to sell it just
before COVID, and through thatprocess came out the other end
(04:35):
and started Raging Empire, whichsort of led me to the next 18
months of my career.
And then we did a pivot, as alot of people like to say, and
here we are with the ImaginationCollaborative today.
Ian Carless (04:49):
So yeah, Well, for those people listening who
aren't familiar with I mean, Iknow, it's only 11 months old as
well, isn't it it?
Iain Morrison (04:56):
is you mentioned?
Ian Carless (04:57):
So tell us a little bit about the Imagination
Collaborative.
Iain Morrison (05:01):
It's a bit of a mouthful.
Sometimes I'm like what was Ithinking?
But I think the name saysreally what we want to be, and
we specialise in eventpre-visualisation so we show
people exactly what their eventwill look like virtually before
(05:21):
they build it in reality, beforethey sell tickets, before they
set budgets.
So we're about emotivestorytelling at pitch stages,
but we're also about therealistic representation of
events in a 3D virtualenvironment where you can
navigate the event and the eventsite virtually and stress test
all different elements of theevents, including signage, risk
(05:45):
furniture.
We do weather forecasting andmodelling.
Everything's geolocated so it'sin its real world position.
We do do a lot of outdoorevents, but we also have a
number of clients that do indoorevents as well.
Ian Carless (06:01):
And you've got a presence now.
Obviously, you're based inAustralia, but you've also got a
presence here in Dubai.
Can you tell us about that?
Iain Morrison (06:07):
We do.
We have spent the last fewmonths setting up a local trade
license mainland trade licensehere in Dubai.
We've got a number of reallyexciting opportunities and we're
working with some local clients.
A lot of what we do,unfortunately, is under NDADA,
so I can't talk about it.
It's so frustrating.
Ian Carless (06:26):
Well, that's gonna be difficult on a podcast it is.
Iain Morrison (06:29):
We did, we.
We got to a stage, probablyabout six, eight months ago,
where we we were doing so muchgreat work we will that we
couldn't show.
We had to go and make our ownvideo, promotional videos which
are on our YouTube channel, justso we could show people what we
do.
Because it sort of got to thestage where we do this
incredible work.
But our clients are veryprotective of their intellectual
(06:53):
property rightfully so.
So a lot of what we do islocked under NDA.
Ian Carless (06:58):
Yeah, and you mentioned clients.
Who's your target audience forwhat you're doing?
Iain Morrison (07:03):
We work with clients who have a lot of money
on the line.
They invest many millions ofdollars into their events and
the events are so temporary youdon't often get a chance to see
what the event is going to looklike in place until it's built,
at which time you'll sit withclients on site and sort of have
(07:26):
this awkward conversation Maybewe need to move that structure.
The client says and you're likeyeah, I thought you'd say that,
but you can't disagree withthem.
And a lot of the time you mighthave tried to explain to them
we've worked in a 2D environment.
So site plans or maybe a staticrender, but they just can't
(07:46):
visualize it.
They can't picture what the endresult's going to look like.
And that's really the 35 yearsof my experience has been so
many of those conversations andso many times when we've showed
the client exactly what it'sgoing to look like in a 3D
environment, they're like, yeah,get it.
Now, I see it.
I understand what you're tryingto say.
(08:07):
Maybe we could move that hereand we can do that virtually and
it's low cost, right, itdoesn't impact a lot of people,
it doesn't cost them thousandsof dollars in overtime.
So, yeah, that's really wherewe're at and what we're trying
to deliver.
Ian Carless (08:25):
Yeah, now I'm going to force a segue into the next
topic there.
Obviously, when you're insituations like that, that
obviously puts a lot of stresson all parties, and what caught
my attention was you popping upin my LinkedIn feed and I know
you don't want to be known asthe burnout guy, but I think
(08:46):
that was the post that reallypopped out.
For me was the information thatyou were putting out around the
topic of burnout and stresswithin the industry.
Now, obviously, you've been inthe industry for 35 years.
What's your personal journeybeen with stress and have you
been through burnout?
Iain Morrison (09:04):
Look, I don't know that you sit there at the
time and go.
I'm stressed and burnt out.
Ian Carless (09:08):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (09:09):
I think you just the events industry is a funny
place you just, well, we've gotto get the gig on, or we've just
got to get to the next gig, orI'm on tour.
Yeah, we've finished pumpingout at 3am and I know my
flight's at 7am.
That's just the way it's beenscheduled and people don't
necessarily relate to it as I'mburnt out and stressed.
(09:32):
I think now there's a lot moreawareness of that.
People are becoming more awareof it, of course, but I come
from that history of well, theshow's got to go on.
I'm male.
I don't talk about my feelingsand emotions.
Ian Carless (09:46):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (09:47):
So the answer to your question is yeah, of course
.
I think everybody at some pointin the events industry that's
been around for this longprobably has faced burnout and
stress, and I think a lot ofpeople that know me pretty well
would say at times I didn't dealwell with it.
But that's just the nature ofthe industry, whether that's
(10:09):
right or wrong.
It is something that I've sortof now a little bit qualified to
talk about, but at the samepoint in time, ian, it's a
subject I kind of fell overaccidentally.
I'm in the process of a newbusiness, trying to get my
personal brand out there, tryingto build the business up, and I
(10:29):
stumbled on this sort of topicthat has resonated with so many
people and it seems that a lotof people want to talk about
this but they don't know how,they don't feel empowered to
talk about it.
They might work for peoplewhere they're not able to post
on LinkedIn or publicly thatthey want to talk about it, but
(10:53):
I get a lot of messages directlyto me from people saying thank
you for talking about it.
Thank you for bringing it up.
We need awareness, and I knowyou've got some statistics in
front of you that we'll probablytalk about, but when you hear
these statistics, they're quitesobering, right.
They're huge.
Ian Carless (11:12):
They really are, and I think perhaps it's not
surprising that you've hit anerve there, and I think if we
all take a moment to reflect andwell, there's something we
don't always take a moment toreflect but if you were, I think
perhaps we wouldn't besurprised that this is such an
emotive topic within ourindustry.
I mean, you mentioned the stats.
I mean, I did some research onthis and here's a few and
(11:33):
they're actually, as you say,they're very sobering.
Here's one A 2022 survey byEventMB found that 79% of event
professionals reported feelingburnt out at some time during
their career.
67% had said they had consideredleaving the industry due to the
(11:54):
pressure and workload.
I mean, I'll go through a fewmore.
Careercast's list of moststressful jobs regularly ranks
event coordination among the topfive, alongside firefighters,
military personnel and airlinepilots.
I mean, I think we werechatting just a little bit off
camera just before the podcaststarted.
(12:16):
I mean those roles firefighters, military personnel, airline
pilots I mean those are, in acouple of them, life-saving
roles, aren't they?
And events are not aboutlife-saving, are they?
Iain Morrison (12:32):
They're about enjoyment and entertainment.
In many cases, you would thinkthat an open heart or a trauma
surgeon would rank above anevent manager.
Right, yeah, let's put this inperspective that I don't want to
take away from the other fourpeople in that category, because
they deserve to be.
Yeah, absolutely they'reincredibly stressful jobs and
careers, I'm sure, but you'reright, as event professionals, I
(12:56):
don't see why we should be upthere, but we are and it's an
incredibly stressful environmentand a lot of that comes down to
the deadlines that are imposed.
But on top of that, the budgetsthat are imposed to meet those
deadlines often don't allow forthe resourcing, adequate
(13:18):
resourcing, and it puts a lot ofpressure on people and I know
I've spent a lot of my career inthat position.
I am at the point now where I'm35 years.
You know what I'll speak outand if people don't agree with
me, I don't care.
I'm not here to be.
You know, I'm speaking fromexperience, yeah, and I know
(13:41):
what I'm saying resonates with alot of people, and I think
you've got the statistics infront of you that you've just
read out.
You know 79% of people areburnt out.
Yeah, that's maybe 21% ofpeople that have spent less than
12 months in the industry.
I don't know how that statisticworks, but it's, you know, good
(14:04):
on the 21%.
Ian Carless (14:05):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (14:06):
But the 79% is a bit of a concern.
Ian Carless (14:09):
Isn't it Jess?
Well, here's another one foryou.
Another recent study, in 2023,found that over 70% of event
professionals work more than 50hours a week during peak seasons
.
And bear in mind, yeah, ourindustry is very seasonal.
Many report always being oncall, even during supposed off
hours or holidays.
Here's another one for you.
(14:29):
One in three eventprofessionals experiences
depression or anxiety symptoms,and 85% feel that their employer
does not adequately supportmental well-being.
When you read all these outtogether, it's almost like a
litany charge, isn't it?
You know, I'm tempted to goaway and think, wow, I need a
lot of introspection here, weneed to have a serious.
(14:50):
But you're right, we do need tohave a conversation about these
things, and I think, in a timewhen mental health and wellbeing
is at the forefront ofeverybody's minds at the moment,
I actually find it reallyreassuring and really pleasing
in some way that you know, Icome across posts and people
like yourself who are not afraidto put this conversation out
there and get the conversationstarted.
Iain Morrison (15:13):
I think that the more we have this conversation,
the more we dig deep and themore people that feel supported
to talk about this stuff, thebetter we're all going to be.
We took a a massive, massivehit over COVID, the industry.
A lot of people I know nevercame back.
(15:34):
A lot of my staff that workedwith us for many years.
I mean we had some team membersthat worked with us for over 20
years that found other jobsduring COVID that were like
we're not coming back, we've gota nine-to-five job or a
nine-to-four job and we'verealised that it doesn't have to
(15:56):
be like that.
There's more to life and Idon't actually blame them.
I see why, and I think thisconversation is one that
definitely needs to be front ofmind for a lot of people now.
Ian Carless (16:10):
You mentioned COVID and again I saw another one of
your posts that I thought reallyresonated and I'll just give
you the.
I'll give for the listeners,I'll give you the gist it was
we're back, but not without thebruises.
And you say after 35 years inevents, I've seen what burnout
looks like, but this past yearsomething has shifted.
You're not just tired, you'redrained, not just by tight
(16:30):
budgets or big ass, but by thekind of exhaustion that just
doesn't clock off.
And then you go on to say andhere's the truth, the industry
did come back.
We pushed on, but with a lot ofmitigating factors in place,
for example smaller teams,shorter timelines, higher stakes
and no room to breathe.
Is this just part of ourindustry?
(16:52):
Are we just kind of?
Should we just kind of I don'tknow put on our big boy pants
and just go yeah, okay, look,it's part of the industry.
We need to suck it up and geton with it.
Iain Morrison (17:01):
I don't think you can say to people anymore put
on your big boy pants.
I think that was you know.
I spent the 90s and early 2000sin rock and roll.
That was the time for put onyour big boy pants.
You know that was you know youfinish a load out at 3, 4 am and
you're on the 7 am flight andjust put on your big boy pants,
(17:24):
be in the lobby at 5.30 am toget to the airport.
Ian Carless (17:27):
I think you termed it actually better than me,
didn't you?
You called it a badge of honourthat kind of attitude.
Yeah, you put in theseridiculously long hours and you
wear it like a badge.
Of course, and at the time youthought yeah yeah, yeah, that's
great.
Iain Morrison (17:40):
But actually it plays on you years later and you
know we're at a whole newjuncture of the industry and one
of the topics I actually justwrote a post on today is a
recurring theme that, sinceCOVID and we've just touched on
it was an exodus of talent fromthe industry and that's been a
(18:10):
or lack of experience, rather,is now starting to play out in a
number of areas Shortertimelines, tighter turnarounds,
not necessarily lower budgets,but tighter budgets, and we're
just starting now to see aripple impact coming around the
world from some tariffs inAmerica.
(18:32):
Events are moving, a lot ofpeople in America are starting
to struggle with less work andthere's a whole new, I think,
wave coming of change through AIon top of that.
That will ripple through theindustry and, again, an
(18:52):
experience and I don't think theindustry has not got back to a
post-COVID, to a pre-COVID point.
We struggled through COVID.
We fought to come back fromCOVID with, as we said, less
talent, less experience andprobably tighter budgets because
people were trying to get backon their feet.
(19:13):
Businesses struggled I know ourbusiness struggled through COVID
and now we're just getting tothe point where you would think
we'd be able to sit back andrelax and go yeah, okay, we made
it through, we're back, we'reon top of all this, and now
we've got a new wave ofchallenges that are surfacing in
(19:34):
recent months, and that's againon top of all of these
statistics we've just talkedabout.
On top of everything else,there's another possibly
crippling event on the horizon.
I don't want to be a doomsdayer, I don't want to be the burnout
guy.
I've got a new business and I'mreally excited about it, but,
(19:55):
at the same point in time, youcan't ignore these topics, and
if I don't talk about it, who isgoing to talk about?
Ian Carless (20:01):
it.
Iain Morrison (20:02):
I think somebody needs to lead the charge, and
there are a few good peoplearound the world doing that.
But the more voices we get, themore support we get, then,
hopefully, the more support wecan offer other people to bring
this to light.
What?
Ian Carless (20:17):
proactive steps do you think that leaders in the
industry can take to avoid someof the pitfalls of stress and
burnout?
Iain Morrison (20:26):
I think the first proactive step people can take
is take a breath and recognisethat 79% of people in this
industry feel burnt out.
That's not a small number.
It's huge.
You're not going to meet astressed and burnt out person.
You're probably working with.
(20:46):
Nearly 80% of the people youwork with are claiming to be
stressed and burnt out.
So take a breath, look aroundyou, think about how you can
shape your environment better tosupport the people around you
as a leader, and just have anhonest conversation with people
(21:06):
and look at how you might beable to make their life a little
bit better, a little bit easier, and do some research into how
to mitigate some of thesepressures that exist in the
industry.
Ian Carless (21:21):
One of your other posts just recently as well I
mean, the heading was burnoutisn't personal, it's operational
which I found really arresting.
And you also then went out tolist, sort of you know 13 of the
most common traps that you seein high-pressure environments
and how to sidestep them.
And actually one of themobviously ties into the business
that you're now embarking onand that's skipping the
(21:43):
pre-visualization.
I mean, how much you know, howmuch stress and work can you
save yourself, obviously just inthat aspect?
You know, as you said, runearly simulations, spot issues
before they escalate.
I mean, that was one very, veryobvious one.
Another one I really liked aswell ambiguous hierarchies
clarify who does what and when.
Decision chaos creates stress.
(22:06):
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Iain Morrison (22:16):
I think a lot of event teams are made up of very
temporary people who may or maynot have worked together.
I mean the majority of theindustry, and I'm terrible with
statistics, so I'm pleasedyou've come armed with them,
because I have not.
But if you dive into how muchthe industry is freelance or
casual or temporary, I thinkyou'll find it's a vast majority
.
So when you form teams, it'svery short term and there's very
(22:37):
often the team is formed by aclient who's delivering an event
and there's not a lot ofconversation about how that team
performs.
And I've spent a bit of timelooking over my recent years
into military teams and how themilitary perform.
And when you look at how theystructure teams, it's very well,
(23:02):
it's very structured, it's veryyou know, it's very clear who
has what responsibility.
I think a lot in events there'sa lot of blurred lines that
aren't cleared at an earlyenough stage and what happens is
then you're covering, yousuddenly realise you've left all
these gaps, but you don't findthe gaps till it's too late.
(23:22):
I think you really, when youform these teams at a very early
stage, you need to be havingthe conversations about okay,
well, how's the team structured,who's responsible and what
processes are we putting inplace?
What's our project management?
You know I've done so manyevents before and I'm still
(23:43):
involved, actually, with a lotto this day, where there's no
project management system inplace.
So there's no surprise you getto event day and realise that
somebody hasn't done somethingbecause you haven't got a system
in place.
So there's no surprise you getto event day and realize that
somebody hasn't done somethingbecause you haven't got a system
in place.
And that's where a lot ofburnout comes from, because
people are now working 18, 20hour days trying to fill the
holes.
Ian Carless (24:03):
You know I've used this anecdote before.
I mean, my background beforeevents was television production
and I've often said that I'd beon a set and sure we have a lot
of moving parts, you know.
And then I obviously gotinvolved in the event industry
and I'm on event setups andevents and I see also you've
probably got even more movingparts.
(24:24):
But for me and I hope thisisn't just indicative of the
events that I've worked on orthe market that I'm in but when
I'm on set with a televisionproduction, everybody knows what
they're doing, everybody knowswhere they need to be and they
know what's coming up and theyknow exactly what they need to
do.
I don't see that with events.
I see it more as people herdingcats.
(24:46):
I really do, and I really hopethat that's not the case across
the board.
I mean, I'm interested to getyour perspective on that because
obviously you've got 35 yearsof experience in Australia
running huge events and yeah,I'm hoping that you haven't been
herding cats all these years.
Iain Morrison (25:04):
I'm sitting here thinking retrospectively of how
disorganised Look.
I would like to think that theevents I've been involved with
we haven't been herding cats andwe've tried to put these
processes in place at an earlystage.
Yeah, but again I'll come backto the structure of the event is
very temporary.
A lot of the time you'rebrought together by a client who
(25:27):
is a promoter or a producer ora rights holder, and they will
choose a whole heap of differentindividuals who haven't worked
together before and they'll justpile them in for a month or two
to plan this event and deliverit.
And you may never have workedwith these people before and you
might never work with themagain.
(25:48):
And it's very hard to produce ahigh performing team in that
short space of time when there'sso many other things on the
line and happening.
And I'm not surprised that itdoes from time to time come
across as herding cats, and thisis, I guess, part of my
encouragement of people.
When you're engaged with anevent, one of the first
(26:10):
conversations you should behaving is okay, well, how are we
structuring this team?
Ian Carless (26:15):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (26:16):
And what processes are we putting in
place to manage the team?
Don't worry about managing theevent just yet.
Yeah, let's talk about how ateam manages.
How do we communicate?
How do we respond to each otherand interact?
Do we respond to each other andinteract?
And once you have that, thenyou can start putting the pieces
(26:36):
of the event puzzle into place.
Ian Carless (26:38):
And I think another important aspect of that and
again you touched on that inyour LinkedIn post was
expectations and, in particular,unspoken expectations.
Again, just elaborate a littlebit on that.
Iain Morrison (26:50):
I think there is a lot of assumptions made, and
again I'll go back to thetemporary nature of events and
the way that people put theseevents together.
They assume they know if I callyou an event producer, I assume
I know what you're going to doand I might put a bit of a job
description together or a scopeof works or however you're
(27:13):
engaged.
To this day, though,surprisingly, there are many,
many people within the eventsindustry that are temporary
freelance, that don't even get acontract, let alone a proper
scope of works, job description,kpis.
They're just brought on as afreelancer.
Hey, come work with us, we'vegot this event to deliver.
They might be brought on by anevent management company.
(27:35):
They might be brought on by therights holder.
They're busy, they're oftensmall businesses.
They don't have time to produceproper contracts, proper
engagements, proper structure inplace, in place, and that
creates ambiguity and confusion,especially when you're knee
deep in it trying to.
(27:58):
You know things go wrong withevents.
We work in, unfortunately, alot of variable environments,
especially if you do outdoorevents.
You're dealing with the weatherand environmental things that
will throw huge curveballs.
You know, I was talking to aclient the other day that was
building an event on an islandand they'd lost of a 10-day
build.
They'd lost nearly four days tobad weather.
(28:20):
So they were already on apretty tight timeline.
They had a lot of bargingissues, a lot of island issues,
and anybody that's done an eventon an island before knows what
I mean by island issues.
Yeah, and then to lose nearlyfour days to bad weather is a
phenomenal amount of time andthe pressure that introduces
alone on that event build issignificant, but then to be
(28:45):
unsure of your role and clarityaround that on top of that is
even harder.
So you know, I think people,especially the people leading or
managing, or I'll talk aboutleaders but the leaders really
need to spend time engagingteams well and setting a good
(29:07):
structure up, a goodcommunication structure, a good
safety net for people.
And I don't know if you've gotthis post, but one post I posted
the other day on LinkedIn wasthat if your event can't run
without you, you've failed as aleader, because essentially, you
need to have every member ofyour team to be fully
(29:28):
replaceable.
And I don't know many eventsthat operate in this day and age
where you could lose a keyperson and that event would
still go on seamlessly.
I think there would be a lot ofpain and suffering around most
people in the events industryright now if they lost a key
person.
And the reality is that in thisday and age you can't put that
(29:50):
sort of pressure on people andexpect good outcomes.
Ian Carless (29:54):
Budget obviously plays a part.
I think in an ideal world andoften I'm not going to say an
unlimited budget, because nobodyever gets an unlimited budget
but if budget were no problem,things like double, triple
crewing we'd all like to do that, but at the end of the day,
we'd all like to do that.
But at the end of the day youhave to balance budget with what
(30:14):
you need to deliver, and that'snot always an easy task, is it?
Iain Morrison (30:20):
I don't think it is.
I think it's, especially inthis day and age.
I mean, the post-COVID pricingis just crazy across the board
and you just have to go to thesupermarket to experience what
I'm talking about in any country.
You know, I was in the US theother day and what I'm paying
(30:41):
for a cup of coffee here inDubai as well is eye-watering
nowadays.
So I think unlimited budgetsare never really going to be a
thing.
There were some fun unlimitedbudgets in the late 2000s.
It really now is about risk andsitting down and saying, okay,
(31:04):
well, what's our risk here andhow much is working through that
risk worth?
Because if your event ishinging or hinges on the fact
that nobody can be sick ornobody can be replaced, then
that risk is pretty great inthis day and age.
You know.
Because again, we've all learntfrom COVID if somebody's sick,
(31:25):
just stay at home.
It's not worth making the wholeteam sick, especially if you've
got a touring show or you'vegot a very long lead show where
if sickness goes through thewhole team, then it's
detrimental.
You want to be able to havepeople stay at home when they're
sick.
You want people to be able tohave a life If they've got a
(31:48):
sick child or a sick partner orsomething else happening in
their life.
Again this comes back to stressand burnout.
That feeling of I can't take aday off contributes
significantly to that.
Ian Carless (32:01):
I know you're not an expert and I want to stress
that, but for people, so this isobviously just your personal
opinion but for people whoperhaps have felt burnt out and
stressed, what would you say arethe first steps towards sort of
recovery in inverted commas orjust rediscovering the joy of
work, you know, actuallyrediscovering what it was that
(32:22):
got you into this field in thefirst place?
Iain Morrison (32:25):
One of the first things you need to do is talk
about it.
I think unless you cancommunicate what you're going
through and feeling, you'reprobably not going to be able to
rise above it.
I think, unless you cancommunicate what you're going
through and feeling, you'reprobably not going to be able to
rise above it.
I think then you really need todig deep and think what brought
me to the industry in the firstplace?
(32:46):
I know I don't deliver eventsanymore like I did.
I was boots on the ground and Ino longer do that.
But I know, no matter whathappened during the lead up to
the event, when I walked into astadium of 100,000 people as the
act walked on stage and theyall eruptedpted, there was that
(33:06):
moment of.
That's why I do it.
That's that's the joy.
It needs to be above all elseand you really need to, at the
end of the day, go home thinking, yeah, I've got a great job and
some days you're not going to,but it needs to be more than
less right.
So if you're not feeling that,talk to.
Talk to people, but it needs tobe more than less right.
(33:26):
So if you're not feeling that,talk to people about it.
If you can't talk to colleagues, go and find somebody a friend
or a family member or aprofessional you can talk to.
You're right, I'm not aprofessional, this is not my
area of expertise.
This is all from personalexperience.
But talking to people andvocalizing it, I think it's the
(33:50):
first place.
Just accepting that you arefeeling overwhelmed can be the
first step to hopefully gettingon top of it.
But 79% of people are feelingthat.
So you know I'm speaking forthe majority.
I think not the minority, whichis scary.
Ian Carless (34:09):
I think I don't want to be rude here, but I
think you know you and I areobviously a little bit older
than perhaps some of the youngerevent professionals.
In light of, perhaps, ourexperience and where we are in
life and in particular, withregard to, you know, the
experience that we have ofstress and burnout, has your
definition of success changedand, if so, how?
Iain Morrison (34:30):
If you talk to my wife, my definition of success
is a very, very high bar,because she's like look at
everything you've achieved.
I'm like, really, no, no, hangon.
But so I think I'm one of thosepeople that needs to take a
step back and look at my ownwork and go yeah, look, I think,
(34:53):
as a career, I've had a prettysuccessful career.
I've been very fortunate.
I've delivered some great shows.
I'm at a great point now whereI'm talking to people like
yourself and traveling the worldand having these amazing
experiences.
We've got this exciting newbusiness that you know is just
starting to get some traction,and that in itself, I think in
(35:15):
this day and age, I should see asuccess.
You know I should be sittingback, going yeah, you know what
11 months in, we're doing?
All right, I, of course, sitthere and go oosh, I've got to
pay wages this week.
Ian Carless (35:29):
We're often our own worst critics, aren't we?
Iain Morrison (35:32):
It brings you back down to earth pretty quick.
Every time you've got to paywages you don't feel quite so
successful.
But yeah, look, I think you'reright.
It's sitting back and justlooking at what you've achieved
and the period of time in whichyou've achieved it and realizing
that we actually had thisconversation before, that.
(35:53):
Overnight successes.
There's no such thing.
You look at the people that aretagged as overnight successes
and they have spent years andyears in the background pushing
and pushing and struggling andfailing and trying again and
they get to a point whereovernight, everybody suddenly
(36:15):
realizes they're there, but thatsuccess has been many years in
the making.
Ian Carless (36:20):
If we wanted a healthier event industry in, say
, the next five years, what hasto change?
What has to change, what has tochange tomorrow?
Iain Morrison (36:27):
That's a good question.
I think that we would reallyneed to change from the top the
expectations of what is actuallyachievable in the time we're
given to achieve it.
Actually achievable in the timewe're given to achieve it?
Yeah, we are seeing tighterbudgets, shorter timeframes,
(36:49):
much.
I mean the lead times on eventsglobally.
You know and I'm still involvedin events day to day and we
work on a lot of pitchesnowadays and a lot of delivery
and we are seeing a trend ofshorter and shorter timeframes
being given by the rightsholders.
(37:11):
So the people who are going outto tender and their
expectations that you know ofhow long it will take to get a
tender in, to deliver, the job,to turn all of this stuff around
is getting shorter and shorter,and that's from the people
holding the events.
So we need those people tounderstand that to get the best
(37:32):
result for them and their events, we need better timelines.
For a start, the budgetsprobably aren't going to change.
I mean the cost of living, thecost of delivery, everything.
All the costs are increasingand the budgets aren't
increasing proportionally.
That's just a fact and you knowit'd be great for me to sit
(37:53):
here and go.
We need bigger budgets, but thereality is I'm just going to
get shouted down right.
So you know, at the end of theday, you have to accept that the
budgets are the budgets, butthe timelines, the understanding
of what it's going to take todeliver these events, especially
in today's climate, I thinkthat's the first big place we
(38:14):
all need to start in realisingwhat's going on.
Ian Carless (38:17):
Well, I think we mentioned this earlier in the
podcast.
I mean, this is the proverbialcan of worms, isn't it?
We could really, if you reallystart digging deep into this, we
could go on forever.
I'm conscious, obviously, oftime.
I do try and keep this podcastdown to a reasonable level.
We're certainly not running atthe timelines of Joe Rogan.
So before we wrap up, let's doa little bit, make it a little
(38:41):
bit more lighthearted.
I've got a few quickfirequestions for you.
Yeah, biggest on-site challengeyou've ever faced, and how did
you solve it?
Iain Morrison (38:49):
Oh look, I've had some great weather challenges.
You can't change the weather.
I know there was one where wewere finding trackway with metal
poles in the mud and we hadmassive cranes pulling sheds and
infrastructure out.
We've had to delay big shows bydays because of big storms.
(39:13):
I think there's probably offthe top of my head in 35 years
I'd struggle to think of thebiggest, but there's quite a few
of them that we've been facedwith.
Ian Carless (39:24):
One thing you'd ban at events if you could.
I would ban at events.
You would ban at events.
Iain Morrison (39:30):
Oh, wow.
Ian Carless (39:31):
I've got one.
Iain Morrison (39:32):
Yeah, pet peeve Mobile phones at concerts.
Get rid of them.
Ian Carless (39:36):
That's mine, that's mine.
What's yours?
Yeah, I don't get it.
I'm clearly at the wrong end ofthat age say I'm the old grumpy
guy.
Iain Morrison (39:44):
I used to always say events would be great
without the artists and thepunters.
But you know we just got tobuild them and pull them out.
But I think, you know, I don'tknow that there's anything I'd
necessarily ban at events, butthere's some things I'd rather
do without.
Ian Carless (39:59):
Go on.
Most underrated event role.
That's a good one.
Iain Morrison (40:04):
The underrated event role.
That's a good one.
The underrated event role.
I'm always going to come back tothe bloke that's left pumping
the toilets at the end of theday and I always would instill
in my team that you should neverbe above any role on site, and
I've made pretty well everyonethat works for me.
They will vouch.
(40:25):
I've made them go and pumptoilets at some point in time or
an event Humbly, it's humbly,and you realise how important it
is.
Everybody's role in an event isequally as important as the
other.
Some are just more glamorousthan others.
Ian Carless (40:43):
Here's one that might make you think a little as
well, a message for the nextgeneration of event
professionals.
Iain Morrison (40:50):
I don't know what events are going to be like in
five to ten years' time, but ifpeople didn't need human
connection then we would neverhave come back from COVID.
So whatever this nextgeneration of events brings and
however it shows, just enjoy thefact that you're connecting
(41:10):
humans.
You're bringing people together, because I think we're at risk
of losing a lot of that humanconnection nowadays with the
state of AI and the developmentof AI and you know, we're
starting to see some prettyrealistic video coming out of AI
of you know people and I thinkhuman connection and events will
(41:33):
be more important now than ever, because it's one of the most
trustworthy means ofcommunication and connection.
Yeah, and the next generation ofpeople coming into events are
going to be responsible for that.
Ian Carless (41:47):
And then, before we wrap up, penultimate question.
So obviously you're 11 monthsinto your new journey with the
Imagination Collaborative.
Iain Morrison (41:55):
Yes, pleased, I wore the shirt for you.
Ian Carless (41:57):
You have absolutely .
Well, if you can't promoteyourself, who can?
What's next for you and whereare you hoping to go with this?
Iain Morrison (42:03):
It's a great question.
We are really excited about thefuture.
We see the future of our worldbeing around informed decision
making and really aboutintegrating technology of how
people engage and interact withevents.
We create digital twins ofevents so we create virtual
(42:26):
representations of real-lifesituations and one of the things
as you learn about digitaltwins is their ability to handle
vast amounts of data and we seethat as the future that really
understanding that data of howpeople integrate with events,
how they interact with events asbeing the future.
(42:48):
So we're putting a lot of timeand effort into that space.
Ian Carless (42:53):
There's one question I always ask of every
guest.
Obviously, you've done a lot ofmusic concerts over your time,
so I'm guessing, like mostpeople, you're a music fan.
I know I am.
My vinyl collection isincreasing once again, much to
my wallet's dismay.
But what's on your playlist atthe moment?
Iain Morrison (43:12):
I have an immense , an immensely eclectic
collection, but at the momentI'm actually listening to a lot
of podcasts, funnily enough, soI've been sort of listening.
Probably the music I'mlistening to is a lot more sort
of just background instrumentalas I work, just something you
(43:36):
know.
So, funnily enough, I actuallycouldn't even tell you what's on
my music playlist at the moment, but I'm listening to.
I've really engaged a lot withStephen Bartlett and a number of
other podcasters.
I have listened to a couple ofyours as well.
Ian Carless (43:51):
Wow, yeah, okay Well, ian, thanks very much for
joining me on the podcast.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Ian.
Welcome to the podcast, ianthank you for having me.
We're not going to forget eachother's names here are we.
Hopefully not, ian.
And Ian, your spelling isslightly different to mine,
though.
I'm the traditional I-A-N and Ihave the blessing of being
Scottish.
Iain Morrison (00:13):
Well, I'm not.
I'm Australian, but my parents,from England, chose Scottish
spelling because Morrison beingScottish, heritage.
Ian Carless (00:22):
Of course, I spent my whole life trying to explain
why the second eye sits.
Iain Morrison (00:33):
How do you pronounce that eye off together?
Yeah, exactly, so a lot of thetime in America, I'll use Fred.
Ian Carless (00:37):
Well, let's dive in , shall we?
I mean, we don't usually wastetime at the head of the podcast,
so how did you get into events?
Iain Morrison (00:44):
I started very young.
At school I had to take part inthe school theatre play and I
think I was about 11 or 12 atthe time and I didn't want to be
on stage and so the only otheroption was to be backstage.
And I fell in love with it andas I went into senior school I
(01:05):
was very lucky.
We had an amazing schooltheatre and an amazing school
theatre program, yeah, and Igrew up through my teens working
in theatre, but then a lot ofkids that were a bit older than
me were working professionallyas well, just pushing road cases
and doing whatever they couldon gigs, and I just got into
working in the industry that wayand I was really fortunate that
(01:29):
.
You know, we had this greattheatre.
We did some amazing bigproductions and school plays and
dances and things and I got anintroduction to the industry and
I never left.
I went to university, studiedstage management at university,
decided I did not want to be astage manager.
I knew that I'd tick that box.
Ian Carless (01:50):
All stage managers were out there going well what's
wrong with that?
Iain Morrison (01:52):
Just not for you Stage managers credit to you.
But yeah, it wasn't going to befor me.
So I got a job just out ofuniversity working as a
mechanist building sets at theOpera House, went on to be a
rigger and worked for OperaAustralia for quite a long time
there and then got into myproper events career in the late
(02:12):
90s.
Ian Carless (02:13):
Right?
Well, listen, obviously I'd beremiss not to do a little bit of
research, so the first place Inormally start is your LinkedIn
page.
Okay, and to quote after 35years delivering some of the
world's biggest events, that's agreat start, isn't it?
35 years?
Iain Morrison (02:29):
Yeah, and I was thinking about this talking to
somebody the other day it'sactually a little bit longer
than 35 years.
Ian Carless (02:35):
Oh, showing your age now.
Iain Morrison (02:36):
Let's just call it 35 years.
Yeah, I've had a prettyfortunate career where I've got
to work with some really coolpeople on some really cool
events.
Ian Carless (02:45):
Just give us a brief overview because I know we
were talking just before thepodcast started.
You ran your own companies acouple of companies prior to
where you're at now andobviously we'll get on in a
short while to talk about theImagination Collaborative but
your first company was Hum, isthat right?
And then you went on to formRaging Empire.
Tell us a little bit aboutthose two ventures.
Iain Morrison (03:05):
In about the late 90s I got into corporate events
and I had a pretty good run incorporate events.
I was working at the time for afairly large company in Sydney
who are a public relations andcorporate event company and they
had a number of clients in theWorld Trade Center and also
Ansett in Australia, who were abig airline at the time, who
(03:28):
folded around September 11 aswell.
They went through a big justbefore Christmas, a big round of
redundancies and layoffsbecause the work had dried up
and I decided I didn't want towork for anyone anymore.
I wanted to be my own boss,decided I didn't want to work
for anyone anymore.
I wanted to be my own boss.
(03:48):
So I started a company and Icouldn't think of a name and Hum
sounded good enough.
So I registered that and wedelivered events site management
, operations, logistics,anything to do with the nuts and
bolts of delivering majorevents in Australia for a period
of just over 21 years and wedid some pretty good shows.
(04:12):
We did, you know, the likes ofU2s, Taylor Swift's, Foo
Fighters, big public events forup to 200,000 people in
Australia over the period andwas very fortunate thousand
people in Australia over theperiod and was very fortunate, I
sold it just before COVID, orwe did a deal to sell it just
before COVID, and through thatprocess came out the other end
(04:35):
and started Raging Empire, whichsort of led me to the next 18
months of my career.
And then we did a pivot, as alot of people like to say, and
here we are with the ImaginationCollaborative today.
Ian Carless (04:49):
So yeah, Well, for those people listening who
aren't familiar with I mean, Iknow, it's only 11 months old as
well, isn't it it?
Iain Morrison (04:56):
is you mentioned?
Ian Carless (04:57):
So tell us a little bit about the Imagination
Collaborative.
Iain Morrison (05:01):
It's a bit of a mouthful.
Sometimes I'm like what was Ithinking?
But I think the name saysreally what we want to be, and
we specialise in eventpre-visualisation so we show
people exactly what their eventwill look like virtually before
(05:21):
they build it in reality, beforethey sell tickets, before they
set budgets.
So we're about emotivestorytelling at pitch stages,
but we're also about therealistic representation of
events in a 3D virtualenvironment where you can
navigate the event and the eventsite virtually and stress test
all different elements of theevents, including signage, risk
(05:45):
furniture.
We do weather forecasting andmodelling.
Everything's geolocated so it'sin its real world position.
We do do a lot of outdoorevents, but we also have a
number of clients that do indoorevents as well.
Ian Carless (06:01):
And you've got a presence now.
Obviously, you're based inAustralia, but you've also got a
presence here in Dubai.
Can you tell us about that?
Iain Morrison (06:07):
We do.
We have spent the last fewmonths setting up a local trade
license mainland trade licensehere in Dubai.
We've got a number of reallyexciting opportunities and we're
working with some local clients.
A lot of what we do,unfortunately, is under NDADA,
so I can't talk about it.
It's so frustrating.
Ian Carless (06:26):
Well, that's gonna be difficult on a podcast it is.
Iain Morrison (06:29):
We did, we.
We got to a stage, probablyabout six, eight months ago,
where we we were doing so muchgreat work we will that we
couldn't show.
We had to go and make our ownvideo, promotional videos which
are on our YouTube channel, justso we could show people what we
do.
Because it sort of got to thestage where we do this
incredible work.
But our clients are veryprotective of their intellectual
(06:53):
property rightfully so.
So a lot of what we do islocked under NDA.
Ian Carless (06:58):
Yeah, and you mentioned clients.
Who's your target audience forwhat you're doing?
Iain Morrison (07:03):
We work with clients who have a lot of money
on the line.
They invest many millions ofdollars into their events and
the events are so temporary youdon't often get a chance to see
what the event is going to looklike in place until it's built,
at which time you'll sit withclients on site and sort of have
(07:26):
this awkward conversation Maybewe need to move that structure.
The client says and you're likeyeah, I thought you'd say that,
but you can't disagree withthem.
And a lot of the time you mighthave tried to explain to them
we've worked in a 2D environment.
So site plans or maybe a staticrender, but they just can't
(07:46):
visualize it.
They can't picture what the endresult's going to look like.
And that's really the 35 yearsof my experience has been so
many of those conversations andso many times when we've showed
the client exactly what it'sgoing to look like in a 3D
environment, they're like, yeah,get it.
Now, I see it.
I understand what you're tryingto say.
(08:07):
Maybe we could move that hereand we can do that virtually and
it's low cost, right, itdoesn't impact a lot of people,
it doesn't cost them thousandsof dollars in overtime.
So, yeah, that's really wherewe're at and what we're trying
to deliver.
Ian Carless (08:25):
Yeah, now I'm going to force a segue into the next
topic there.
Obviously, when you're insituations like that, that
obviously puts a lot of stresson all parties, and what caught
my attention was you popping upin my LinkedIn feed and I know
you don't want to be known asthe burnout guy, but I think
(08:46):
that was the post that reallypopped out.
For me was the information thatyou were putting out around the
topic of burnout and stresswithin the industry.
Now, obviously, you've been inthe industry for 35 years.
What's your personal journeybeen with stress and have you
been through burnout?
Iain Morrison (09:04):
Look, I don't know that you sit there at the
time and go.
I'm stressed and burnt out.
Ian Carless (09:08):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (09:09):
I think you just the events industry is a funny
place you just, well, we've gotto get the gig on, or we've just
got to get to the next gig, orI'm on tour.
Yeah, we've finished pumpingout at 3am and I know my
flight's at 7am.
That's just the way it's beenscheduled and people don't
necessarily relate to it as I'mburnt out and stressed.
(09:32):
I think now there's a lot moreawareness of that.
People are becoming more awareof it, of course, but I come
from that history of well, theshow's got to go on.
I'm male.
I don't talk about my feelingsand emotions.
Ian Carless (09:46):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (09:47):
So the answer to your question is yeah, of course
.
I think everybody at some pointin the events industry that's
been around for this longprobably has faced burnout and
stress, and I think a lot ofpeople that know me pretty well
would say at times I didn't dealwell with it.
But that's just the nature ofthe industry, whether that's
(10:09):
right or wrong.
It is something that I've sortof now a little bit qualified to
talk about, but at the samepoint in time, ian, it's a
subject I kind of fell overaccidentally.
I'm in the process of a newbusiness, trying to get my
personal brand out there, tryingto build the business up, and I
(10:29):
stumbled on this sort of topicthat has resonated with so many
people and it seems that a lotof people want to talk about
this but they don't know how,they don't feel empowered to
talk about it.
They might work for peoplewhere they're not able to post
on LinkedIn or publicly thatthey want to talk about it, but
(10:53):
I get a lot of messages directlyto me from people saying thank
you for talking about it.
Thank you for bringing it up.
We need awareness, and I knowyou've got some statistics in
front of you that we'll probablytalk about, but when you hear
these statistics, they're quitesobering, right.
They're huge.
Ian Carless (11:12):
They really are, and I think perhaps it's not
surprising that you've hit anerve there, and I think if we
all take a moment to reflect andwell, there's something we
don't always take a moment toreflect but if you were, I think
perhaps we wouldn't besurprised that this is such an
emotive topic within ourindustry.
I mean, you mentioned the stats.
I mean, I did some research onthis and here's a few and
(11:33):
they're actually, as you say,they're very sobering.
Here's one A 2022 survey byEventMB found that 79% of event
professionals reported feelingburnt out at some time during
their career.
67% had said they had consideredleaving the industry due to the
(11:54):
pressure and workload.
I mean, I'll go through a fewmore.
Careercast's list of moststressful jobs regularly ranks
event coordination among the topfive, alongside firefighters,
military personnel and airlinepilots.
I mean, I think we werechatting just a little bit off
camera just before the podcaststarted.
(12:16):
I mean those roles firefighters, military personnel, airline
pilots I mean those are, in acouple of them, life-saving
roles, aren't they?
And events are not aboutlife-saving, are they?
Iain Morrison (12:32):
They're about enjoyment and entertainment.
In many cases, you would thinkthat an open heart or a trauma
surgeon would rank above anevent manager.
Right, yeah, let's put this inperspective that I don't want to
take away from the other fourpeople in that category, because
they deserve to be.
Yeah, absolutely they'reincredibly stressful jobs and
careers, I'm sure, but you'reright, as event professionals, I
(12:56):
don't see why we should be upthere, but we are and it's an
incredibly stressful environmentand a lot of that comes down to
the deadlines that are imposed.
But on top of that, the budgetsthat are imposed to meet those
deadlines often don't allow forthe resourcing, adequate
(13:18):
resourcing, and it puts a lot ofpressure on people and I know
I've spent a lot of my career inthat position.
I am at the point now where I'm35 years.
You know what I'll speak outand if people don't agree with
me, I don't care.
I'm not here to be.
You know, I'm speaking fromexperience, yeah, and I know
(13:41):
what I'm saying resonates with alot of people, and I think
you've got the statistics infront of you that you've just
read out.
You know 79% of people areburnt out.
Yeah, that's maybe 21% ofpeople that have spent less than
12 months in the industry.
I don't know how that statisticworks, but it's, you know, good
(14:04):
on the 21%.
Ian Carless (14:05):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (14:06):
But the 79% is a bit of a concern.
Ian Carless (14:09):
Isn't it Jess?
Well, here's another one foryou.
Another recent study, in 2023,found that over 70% of event
professionals work more than 50hours a week during peak seasons
.
And bear in mind, yeah, ourindustry is very seasonal.
Many report always being oncall, even during supposed off
hours or holidays.
Here's another one for you.
(14:29):
One in three eventprofessionals experiences
depression or anxiety symptoms,and 85% feel that their employer
does not adequately supportmental well-being.
When you read all these outtogether, it's almost like a
litany charge, isn't it?
You know, I'm tempted to goaway and think, wow, I need a
lot of introspection here, weneed to have a serious.
(14:50):
But you're right, we do need tohave a conversation about these
things, and I think, in a timewhen mental health and wellbeing
is at the forefront ofeverybody's minds at the moment,
I actually find it reallyreassuring and really pleasing
in some way that you know, Icome across posts and people
like yourself who are not afraidto put this conversation out
there and get the conversationstarted.
Iain Morrison (15:13):
I think that the more we have this conversation,
the more we dig deep and themore people that feel supported
to talk about this stuff, thebetter we're all going to be.
We took a a massive, massivehit over COVID, the industry.
A lot of people I know nevercame back.
(15:34):
A lot of my staff that workedwith us for many years.
I mean we had some team membersthat worked with us for over 20
years that found other jobsduring COVID that were like
we're not coming back, we've gota nine-to-five job or a
nine-to-four job and we'verealised that it doesn't have to
(15:56):
be like that.
There's more to life and Idon't actually blame them.
I see why, and I think thisconversation is one that
definitely needs to be front ofmind for a lot of people now.
Ian Carless (16:10):
You mentioned COVID and again I saw another one of
your posts that I thought reallyresonated and I'll just give
you the.
I'll give for the listeners,I'll give you the gist it was
we're back, but not without thebruises.
And you say after 35 years inevents, I've seen what burnout
looks like, but this past yearsomething has shifted.
You're not just tired, you'redrained, not just by tight
(16:30):
budgets or big ass, but by thekind of exhaustion that just
doesn't clock off.
And then you go on to say andhere's the truth, the industry
did come back.
We pushed on, but with a lot ofmitigating factors in place,
for example smaller teams,shorter timelines, higher stakes
and no room to breathe.
Is this just part of ourindustry?
(16:52):
Are we just kind of?
Should we just kind of I don'tknow put on our big boy pants
and just go yeah, okay, look,it's part of the industry.
We need to suck it up and geton with it.
Iain Morrison (17:01):
I don't think you can say to people anymore put
on your big boy pants.
I think that was you know.
I spent the 90s and early 2000sin rock and roll.
That was the time for put onyour big boy pants.
You know that was you know youfinish a load out at 3, 4 am and
you're on the 7 am flight andjust put on your big boy pants,
(17:24):
be in the lobby at 5.30 am toget to the airport.
Ian Carless (17:27):
I think you termed it actually better than me,
didn't you?
You called it a badge of honourthat kind of attitude.
Yeah, you put in theseridiculously long hours and you
wear it like a badge.
Of course, and at the time youthought yeah yeah, yeah, that's
great.
Iain Morrison (17:40):
But actually it plays on you years later and you
know we're at a whole newjuncture of the industry and one
of the topics I actually justwrote a post on today is a
recurring theme that, sinceCOVID and we've just touched on
it was an exodus of talent fromthe industry and that's been a
(18:10):
or lack of experience, rather,is now starting to play out in a
number of areas Shortertimelines, tighter turnarounds,
not necessarily lower budgets,but tighter budgets, and we're
just starting now to see aripple impact coming around the
world from some tariffs inAmerica.
(18:32):
Events are moving, a lot ofpeople in America are starting
to struggle with less work andthere's a whole new, I think,
wave coming of change through AIon top of that.
That will ripple through theindustry and, again, an
(18:52):
experience and I don't think theindustry has not got back to a
post-COVID, to a pre-COVID point.
We struggled through COVID.
We fought to come back fromCOVID with, as we said, less
talent, less experience andprobably tighter budgets because
people were trying to get backon their feet.
(19:13):
Businesses struggled I know ourbusiness struggled through COVID
and now we're just getting tothe point where you would think
we'd be able to sit back andrelax and go yeah, okay, we made
it through, we're back, we'reon top of all this, and now
we've got a new wave ofchallenges that are surfacing in
(19:34):
recent months, and that's againon top of all of these
statistics we've just talkedabout.
On top of everything else,there's another possibly
crippling event on the horizon.
I don't want to be a doomsdayer, I don't want to be the burnout
guy.
I've got a new business and I'mreally excited about it, but,
(19:55):
at the same point in time, youcan't ignore these topics, and
if I don't talk about it, who isgoing to talk about?
Ian Carless (20:01):
it.
Iain Morrison (20:02):
I think somebody needs to lead the charge, and
there are a few good peoplearound the world doing that.
But the more voices we get, themore support we get, then,
hopefully, the more support wecan offer other people to bring
this to light.
What?
Ian Carless (20:17):
proactive steps do you think that leaders in the
industry can take to avoid someof the pitfalls of stress and
burnout?
Iain Morrison (20:26):
I think the first proactive step people can take
is take a breath and recognisethat 79% of people in this
industry feel burnt out.
That's not a small number.
It's huge.
You're not going to meet astressed and burnt out person.
You're probably working with.
(20:46):
Nearly 80% of the people youwork with are claiming to be
stressed and burnt out.
So take a breath, look aroundyou, think about how you can
shape your environment better tosupport the people around you
as a leader, and just have anhonest conversation with people
(21:06):
and look at how you might beable to make their life a little
bit better, a little bit easier, and do some research into how
to mitigate some of thesepressures that exist in the
industry.
Ian Carless (21:21):
One of your other posts just recently as well I
mean, the heading was burnoutisn't personal, it's operational
which I found really arresting.
And you also then went out tolist, sort of you know 13 of the
most common traps that you seein high-pressure environments
and how to sidestep them.
And actually one of themobviously ties into the business
that you're now embarking onand that's skipping the
(21:43):
pre-visualization.
I mean, how much you know, howmuch stress and work can you
save yourself, obviously just inthat aspect?
You know, as you said, runearly simulations, spot issues
before they escalate.
I mean, that was one very, veryobvious one.
Another one I really liked aswell ambiguous hierarchies
clarify who does what and when.
Decision chaos creates stress.
(22:06):
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Iain Morrison (22:16):
I think a lot of event teams are made up of very
temporary people who may or maynot have worked together.
I mean the majority of theindustry, and I'm terrible with
statistics, so I'm pleasedyou've come armed with them,
because I have not.
But if you dive into how muchthe industry is freelance or
casual or temporary, I thinkyou'll find it's a vast majority
.
So when you form teams, it'svery short term and there's very
(22:37):
often the team is formed by aclient who's delivering an event
and there's not a lot ofconversation about how that team
performs.
And I've spent a bit of timelooking over my recent years
into military teams and how themilitary perform.
And when you look at how theystructure teams, it's very well,
(23:02):
it's very structured, it's veryyou know, it's very clear who
has what responsibility.
I think a lot in events there'sa lot of blurred lines that
aren't cleared at an earlyenough stage and what happens is
then you're covering, yousuddenly realise you've left all
these gaps, but you don't findthe gaps till it's too late.
(23:22):
I think you really, when youform these teams at a very early
stage, you need to be havingthe conversations about okay,
well, how's the team structured,who's responsible and what
processes are we putting inplace?
What's our project management?
You know I've done so manyevents before and I'm still
(23:43):
involved, actually, with a lotto this day, where there's no
project management system inplace.
So there's no surprise you getto event day and realise that
somebody hasn't done somethingbecause you haven't got a system
in place.
So there's no surprise you getto event day and realize that
somebody hasn't done somethingbecause you haven't got a system
in place.
And that's where a lot ofburnout comes from, because
people are now working 18, 20hour days trying to fill the
holes.
Ian Carless (24:03):
You know I've used this anecdote before.
I mean, my background beforeevents was television production
and I've often said that I'd beon a set and sure we have a lot
of moving parts, you know.
And then I obviously gotinvolved in the event industry
and I'm on event setups andevents and I see also you've
probably got even more movingparts.
(24:24):
But for me and I hope thisisn't just indicative of the
events that I've worked on orthe market that I'm in but when
I'm on set with a televisionproduction, everybody knows what
they're doing, everybody knowswhere they need to be and they
know what's coming up and theyknow exactly what they need to
do.
I don't see that with events.
I see it more as people herdingcats.
(24:46):
I really do, and I really hopethat that's not the case across
the board.
I mean, I'm interested to getyour perspective on that because
obviously you've got 35 yearsof experience in Australia
running huge events and yeah,I'm hoping that you haven't been
herding cats all these years.
Iain Morrison (25:04):
I'm sitting here thinking retrospectively of how
disorganised Look.
I would like to think that theevents I've been involved with
we haven't been herding cats andwe've tried to put these
processes in place at an earlystage.
Yeah, but again I'll come backto the structure of the event is
very temporary.
A lot of the time you'rebrought together by a client who
(25:27):
is a promoter or a producer ora rights holder, and they will
choose a whole heap of differentindividuals who haven't worked
together before and they'll justpile them in for a month or two
to plan this event and deliverit.
And you may never have workedwith these people before and you
might never work with themagain.
(25:48):
And it's very hard to produce ahigh performing team in that
short space of time when there'sso many other things on the
line and happening.
And I'm not surprised that itdoes from time to time come
across as herding cats, and thisis, I guess, part of my
encouragement of people.
When you're engaged with anevent, one of the first
(26:10):
conversations you should behaving is okay, well, how are we
structuring this team?
Ian Carless (26:15):
Yeah.
Iain Morrison (26:16):
And what processes are we putting in
place to manage the team?
Don't worry about managing theevent just yet.
Yeah, let's talk about how ateam manages.
How do we communicate?
How do we respond to each otherand interact?
Do we respond to each other andinteract?
And once you have that, thenyou can start putting the pieces
(26:36):
of the event puzzle into place.
Ian Carless (26:38):
And I think another important aspect of that and
again you touched on that inyour LinkedIn post was
expectations and, in particular,unspoken expectations.
Again, just elaborate a littlebit on that.
Iain Morrison (26:50):
I think there is a lot of assumptions made, and
again I'll go back to thetemporary nature of events and
the way that people put theseevents together.
They assume they know if I callyou an event producer, I assume
I know what you're going to doand I might put a bit of a job
description together or a scopeof works or however you're
(27:13):
engaged.
To this day, though,surprisingly, there are many,
many people within the eventsindustry that are temporary
freelance, that don't even get acontract, let alone a proper
scope of works, job description,kpis.
They're just brought on as afreelancer.
Hey, come work with us, we'vegot this event to deliver.
They might be brought on by anevent management company.
(27:35):
They might be brought on by therights holder.
They're busy, they're oftensmall businesses.
They don't have time to produceproper contracts, proper
engagements, proper structure inplace, in place, and that
creates ambiguity and confusion,especially when you're knee
deep in it trying to.
(27:58):
You know things go wrong withevents.
We work in, unfortunately, alot of variable environments,
especially if you do outdoorevents.
You're dealing with the weatherand environmental things that
will throw huge curveballs.
You know, I was talking to aclient the other day that was
building an event on an islandand they'd lost of a 10-day
build.
They'd lost nearly four days tobad weather.
(28:20):
So they were already on apretty tight timeline.
They had a lot of bargingissues, a lot of island issues,
and anybody that's done an eventon an island before knows what
I mean by island issues.
Yeah, and then to lose nearlyfour days to bad weather is a
phenomenal amount of time andthe pressure that introduces
alone on that event build issignificant, but then to be
(28:45):
unsure of your role and clarityaround that on top of that is
even harder.
So you know, I think people,especially the people leading or
managing, or I'll talk aboutleaders but the leaders really
need to spend time engagingteams well and setting a good
(29:07):
structure up, a goodcommunication structure, a good
safety net for people.
And I don't know if you've gotthis post, but one post I posted
the other day on LinkedIn wasthat if your event can't run
without you, you've failed as aleader, because essentially, you
need to have every member ofyour team to be fully
(29:28):
replaceable.
And I don't know many eventsthat operate in this day and age
where you could lose a keyperson and that event would
still go on seamlessly.
I think there would be a lot ofpain and suffering around most
people in the events industryright now if they lost a key
person.
And the reality is that in thisday and age you can't put that
(29:50):
sort of pressure on people andexpect good outcomes.
Ian Carless (29:54):
Budget obviously plays a part.
I think in an ideal world andoften I'm not going to say an
unlimited budget, because nobodyever gets an unlimited budget
but if budget were no problem,things like double, triple
crewing we'd all like to do that, but at the end of the day,
we'd all like to do that.
But at the end of the day youhave to balance budget with what
(30:14):
you need to deliver, and that'snot always an easy task, is it?
Iain Morrison (30:20):
I don't think it is.
I think it's, especially inthis day and age.
I mean, the post-COVID pricingis just crazy across the board
and you just have to go to thesupermarket to experience what
I'm talking about in any country.
You know, I was in the US theother day and what I'm paying
(30:41):
for a cup of coffee here inDubai as well is eye-watering
nowadays.
So I think unlimited budgetsare never really going to be a
thing.
There were some fun unlimitedbudgets in the late 2000s.
It really now is about risk andsitting down and saying, okay,
(31:04):
well, what's our risk here andhow much is working through that
risk worth?
Because if your event ishinging or hinges on the fact
that nobody can be sick ornobody can be replaced, then
that risk is pretty great inthis day and age.
You know.
Because again, we've all learntfrom COVID if somebody's sick,
(31:25):
just stay at home.
It's not worth making the wholeteam sick, especially if you've
got a touring show or you'vegot a very long lead show where
if sickness goes through thewhole team, then it's
detrimental.
You want to be able to havepeople stay at home when they're
sick.
You want people to be able tohave a life If they've got a
(31:48):
sick child or a sick partner orsomething else happening in
their life.
Again this comes back to stressand burnout.
That feeling of I can't take aday off contributes
significantly to that.
Ian Carless (32:01):
I know you're not an expert and I want to stress
that, but for people, so this isobviously just your personal
opinion but for people whoperhaps have felt burnt out and
stressed, what would you say arethe first steps towards sort of
recovery in inverted commas orjust rediscovering the joy of
work, you know, actuallyrediscovering what it was that
(32:22):
got you into this field in thefirst place?
Iain Morrison (32:25):
One of the first things you need to do is talk
about it.
I think unless you cancommunicate what you're going
through and feeling, you'reprobably not going to be able to
rise above it.
I think, unless you cancommunicate what you're going
through and feeling, you'reprobably not going to be able to
rise above it.
I think then you really need todig deep and think what brought
me to the industry in the firstplace?
(32:46):
I know I don't deliver eventsanymore like I did.
I was boots on the ground and Ino longer do that.
But I know, no matter whathappened during the lead up to
the event, when I walked into astadium of 100,000 people as the
act walked on stage and theyall eruptedpted, there was that
(33:06):
moment of.
That's why I do it.
That's that's the joy.
It needs to be above all elseand you really need to, at the
end of the day, go home thinking, yeah, I've got a great job and
some days you're not going to,but it needs to be more than
less right.
So if you're not feeling that,talk to.
Talk to people, but it needs tobe more than less right.
(33:26):
So if you're not feeling that,talk to people about it.
If you can't talk to colleagues, go and find somebody a friend
or a family member or aprofessional you can talk to.
You're right, I'm not aprofessional, this is not my
area of expertise.
This is all from personalexperience.
But talking to people andvocalizing it, I think it's the
(33:50):
first place.
Just accepting that you arefeeling overwhelmed can be the
first step to hopefully gettingon top of it.
But 79% of people are feelingthat.
So you know I'm speaking forthe majority.
I think not the minority, whichis scary.
Ian Carless (34:09):
I think I don't want to be rude here, but I
think you know you and I areobviously a little bit older
than perhaps some of the youngerevent professionals.
In light of, perhaps, ourexperience and where we are in
life and in particular, withregard to, you know, the
experience that we have ofstress and burnout, has your
definition of success changedand, if so, how?
Iain Morrison (34:30):
If you talk to my wife, my definition of success
is a very, very high bar,because she's like look at
everything you've achieved.
I'm like, really, no, no, hangon.
But so I think I'm one of thosepeople that needs to take a
step back and look at my ownwork and go yeah, look, I think,
(34:53):
as a career, I've had a prettysuccessful career.
I've been very fortunate.
I've delivered some great shows.
I'm at a great point now whereI'm talking to people like
yourself and traveling the worldand having these amazing
experiences.
We've got this exciting newbusiness that you know is just
starting to get some traction,and that in itself, I think in
(35:15):
this day and age, I should see asuccess.
You know I should be sittingback, going yeah, you know what
11 months in, we're doing?
All right, I, of course, sitthere and go oosh, I've got to
pay wages this week.
Ian Carless (35:29):
We're often our own worst critics, aren't we?
Iain Morrison (35:32):
It brings you back down to earth pretty quick.
Every time you've got to paywages you don't feel quite so
successful.
But yeah, look, I think you'reright.
It's sitting back and justlooking at what you've achieved
and the period of time in whichyou've achieved it and realizing
that we actually had thisconversation before, that.
(35:53):
Overnight successes.
There's no such thing.
You look at the people that aretagged as overnight successes
and they have spent years andyears in the background pushing
and pushing and struggling andfailing and trying again and
they get to a point whereovernight, everybody suddenly
(36:15):
realizes they're there, but thatsuccess has been many years in
the making.
Ian Carless (36:20):
If we wanted a healthier event industry in, say
, the next five years, what hasto change?
What has to change, what has tochange tomorrow?
Iain Morrison (36:27):
That's a good question.
I think that we would reallyneed to change from the top the
expectations of what is actuallyachievable in the time we're
given to achieve it.
Actually achievable in the timewe're given to achieve it?
Yeah, we are seeing tighterbudgets, shorter timeframes,
(36:49):
much.
I mean the lead times on eventsglobally.
You know and I'm still involvedin events day to day and we
work on a lot of pitchesnowadays and a lot of delivery
and we are seeing a trend ofshorter and shorter timeframes
being given by the rightsholders.
(37:11):
So the people who are going outto tender and their
expectations that you know ofhow long it will take to get a
tender in, to deliver, the job,to turn all of this stuff around
is getting shorter and shorter,and that's from the people
holding the events.
So we need those people tounderstand that to get the best
(37:32):
result for them and their events, we need better timelines.
For a start, the budgetsprobably aren't going to change.
I mean the cost of living, thecost of delivery, everything.
All the costs are increasingand the budgets aren't
increasing proportionally.
That's just a fact and you knowit'd be great for me to sit
(37:53):
here and go.
We need bigger budgets, but thereality is I'm just going to
get shouted down right.
So you know, at the end of theday, you have to accept that the
budgets are the budgets, butthe timelines, the understanding
of what it's going to take todeliver these events, especially
in today's climate, I thinkthat's the first big place we
(38:14):
all need to start in realisingwhat's going on.
Ian Carless (38:17):
Well, I think we mentioned this earlier in the
podcast.
I mean, this is the proverbialcan of worms, isn't it?
We could really, if you reallystart digging deep into this, we
could go on forever.
I'm conscious, obviously, oftime.
I do try and keep this podcastdown to a reasonable level.
We're certainly not running atthe timelines of Joe Rogan.
So before we wrap up, let's doa little bit, make it a little
(38:41):
bit more lighthearted.
I've got a few quickfirequestions for you.
Yeah, biggest on-site challengeyou've ever faced, and how did
you solve it?
Iain Morrison (38:49):
Oh look, I've had some great weather challenges.
You can't change the weather.
I know there was one where wewere finding trackway with metal
poles in the mud and we hadmassive cranes pulling sheds and
infrastructure out.
We've had to delay big shows bydays because of big storms.
(39:13):
I think there's probably offthe top of my head in 35 years
I'd struggle to think of thebiggest, but there's quite a few
of them that we've been facedwith.
Ian Carless (39:24):
One thing you'd ban at events if you could.
I would ban at events.
You would ban at events.
Iain Morrison (39:30):
Oh, wow.
Ian Carless (39:31):
I've got one.
Iain Morrison (39:32):
Yeah, pet peeve Mobile phones at concerts.
Get rid of them.
Ian Carless (39:36):
That's mine, that's mine.
What's yours?
Yeah, I don't get it.
I'm clearly at the wrong end ofthat age say I'm the old grumpy
guy.
Iain Morrison (39:44):
I used to always say events would be great
without the artists and thepunters.
But you know we just got tobuild them and pull them out.
But I think, you know, I don'tknow that there's anything I'd
necessarily ban at events, butthere's some things I'd rather
do without.
Ian Carless (39:59):
Go on.
Most underrated event role.
That's a good one.
Iain Morrison (40:04):
The underrated event role.
That's a good one.
The underrated event role.
I'm always going to come back tothe bloke that's left pumping
the toilets at the end of theday and I always would instill
in my team that you should neverbe above any role on site, and
I've made pretty well everyonethat works for me.
They will vouch.
(40:25):
I've made them go and pumptoilets at some point in time or
an event Humbly, it's humbly,and you realise how important it
is.
Everybody's role in an event isequally as important as the
other.
Some are just more glamorousthan others.
Ian Carless (40:43):
Here's one that might make you think a little as
well, a message for the nextgeneration of event
professionals.
Iain Morrison (40:50):
I don't know what events are going to be like in
five to ten years' time, but ifpeople didn't need human
connection then we would neverhave come back from COVID.
So whatever this nextgeneration of events brings and
however it shows, just enjoy thefact that you're connecting
(41:10):
humans.
You're bringing people together, because I think we're at risk
of losing a lot of that humanconnection nowadays with the
state of AI and the developmentof AI and you know, we're
starting to see some prettyrealistic video coming out of AI
of you know people and I thinkhuman connection and events will
(41:33):
be more important now than ever, because it's one of the most
trustworthy means ofcommunication and connection.
Yeah, and the next generation ofpeople coming into events are
going to be responsible for that.
Ian Carless (41:47):
And then, before we wrap up, penultimate question.
So obviously you're 11 monthsinto your new journey with the
Imagination Collaborative.
Iain Morrison (41:55):
Yes, pleased, I wore the shirt for you.
Ian Carless (41:57):
You have absolutely .
Well, if you can't promoteyourself, who can?
What's next for you and whereare you hoping to go with this?
Iain Morrison (42:03):
It's a great question.
We are really excited about thefuture.
We see the future of our worldbeing around informed decision
making and really aboutintegrating technology of how
people engage and interact withevents.
We create digital twins ofevents so we create virtual
(42:26):
representations of real-lifesituations and one of the things
as you learn about digitaltwins is their ability to handle
vast amounts of data and we seethat as the future that really
understanding that data of howpeople integrate with events,
how they interact with events asbeing the future.
(42:48):
So we're putting a lot of timeand effort into that space.
Ian Carless (42:53):
There's one question I always ask of every
guest.
Obviously, you've done a lot ofmusic concerts over your time,
so I'm guessing, like mostpeople, you're a music fan.
I know I am.
My vinyl collection isincreasing once again, much to
my wallet's dismay.
But what's on your playlist atthe moment?
Iain Morrison (43:12):
I have an immense , an immensely eclectic
collection, but at the momentI'm actually listening to a lot
of podcasts, funnily enough, soI've been sort of listening.
Probably the music I'mlistening to is a lot more sort
of just background instrumentalas I work, just something you
(43:36):
know.
So, funnily enough, I actuallycouldn't even tell you what's on
my music playlist at the moment, but I'm listening to.
I've really engaged a lot withStephen Bartlett and a number of
other podcasters.
I have listened to a couple ofyours as well.
Ian Carless (43:51):
Wow, yeah, okay Well, ian, thanks very much for
joining me on the podcast.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
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