Unmasking The Pressure To Be Perfect with Mordy Gottlieb

What if the “strong” version of you is actually the one that speaks honestly, asks for help, and stops trying to be perfect? That question sits at the center of our conversation with licensed clinical social worker and men’s coach Mordy Gottlieb, whose journey from pastry chef to 13 months in treatment to leading men’s groups reframes what real strength looks like.

We dig into the pressure men feel to hold it all together, how perfectionism keeps peace just out of reach, and why shame multiplies in isolation. Morty explains why men’s groups are uniquely powerful: accountability and compassion delivered by peers create embodied safety that a solo therapy hour can’t replicate. From literal backpack exercises to the vulnerability of candlelit “10 shames, 10 regrets,” he shows how structure and protection allow men to finally put the mask down and be seen without being destroyed by it.

You’ll hear practical ways to start small and build confidence: make your bed to rebuild self-trust, ask a simple question in the store to practice micro-risk, and anchor attention in the part of your body that feels safe when anxiety spikes. We also explore embodied movement and ecstatic dance as bold training grounds for nervous system freedom—no steps to memorize, no “wrong” moves, just the habit of being real in public. Then we bring it home to relationships: crafting clear agreements, telling the truth without dumping, and honoring needs even when you don’t fully understand them. The throughline is simple and hard—your worth is not earned by performance. Act from dignity, not for it.

If you’re tired of carrying the invisible backpack, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a brother who needs it, and leave a review with the one micro-risk you’ll take this week. Ready to trade the mask for real connection? Join us and step forward.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
Are you ready to break free from hesitation,
self-doubt, and isolation?
Do you want to lead withconfidence, build powerful
connections, and live boldly?
I'm Cory Baum, and I'm here toshare the most impactful
strategies and mindsets thatI've learned through coaching,
leadership, and real-worldexperience.
Together we'll forge unshakableconfidence, master social

(00:24):
dynamics, and create a liferooted in purpose, brotherhood,
and bold action.
Inside, you'll get the tools andinsights to become the
strongest, most connectedversion of yourself.
Let's dive in.
All right.
Welcome back to the Evolve Menpodcast, where we explore what
it means to live, lead, and loveas grounded, authentic men.

(00:47):
Today's guest is someone who'sbeen doing the work both on both
sides of the chair.
I've got Morty Gottlieb.
He's a licensed clinical socialworker and a coach based in
Scottsdale, Arizona, helping menmove past shame, perfectionism,
and the constant pressure tohave it together.
So some of the things we'regoing to talk about today that

(01:09):
we'll go deep on is how thosepatterns form, why so many men
struggle silently, and what itlooks like to show up, not
perfectly, but authentically.
So let's get into it.
So welcome to the show, man.
Glad to have you here.
What do you what is it that ledyou to this work?

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Yeah, every time I tell people what I used to do,
then they always tell me that Ihave to make it for them.
But my first career was a pastrychef.
And honestly, and then Iremember I tell people look, if
we have an ongoing relationship,I will absolutely make you
something pastry chef.
I was an amazing pastry chef,and I envisioned doing that for

(01:54):
the rest of my life.
And that was my plan.
On the outside, my life lookedgreat and wonderful and
functional.
And probably like most men onthe inside, the ones that are
struggling, it's just on theinside.
On the inside, I was fallingapart, filled with shame,
depression.
A sense of whatever I did wasnever enough.

(02:17):
And as soon as I thought I knewwhat I needed to do to be
enough, and I did that, it stillwasn't enough.
So essentially I was set up inthis loop that I was inevitably
doomed.
And at a certain point, itbecame so challenging that I had
to numb out the feelings.

(02:37):
And I went to food, I went toalcohol, I went to pornography.
It led me to a lifetime ofbecoming addicted to people say,
What did you do?
I said, I did whatever I couldto feel better.
So the hurt was so deep, theshame was so bad, I didn't know
any way out.
So I just used substances tomake myself feel better.

SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
Is that so is that what led you into social work?
How did that kind of go?
I mean, you you know, giving upthe pastries is no easy feat.
Like that that that takes a bigmovement.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Yeah.
So I went to treatment back in2014.
And it's funny to think aboutwhen I went, I had a flip phone
back then.
And back then, treatment centersweren't five-star hotels.
They were really bare bones, andthey were like, Morty, you're
here to do the work, you're hereto get well.
We're here to teach you what aman is, which means somebody

(03:33):
that takes responsibility forthemselves, that doesn't blame
other people and say that, oh,when this person changes, then
my life's gonna get better.
It's about getting consequences.
Like my whole life, it was likepeople bailed me out, they
thought they were helping me andsupporting me in that, and not
realizing that part of being ahuman being is getting
consequences.
Because if you don't teachpeople consequences, they're

(03:54):
just gonna continue doing that.
I went to treatment initiallyfor five weeks.
I was 24 years old.
I went for five weeks, I cameback about 13 months later.
And people say to me, Well, yougave up so much time of your
life.
And I said, It was worth it forme to invest 13 months of my
life so that I could have therest of my life to live in

(04:18):
peace.
So I remember I'm sitting therewith other men, and a therapist
could try to hold meaccountable, a therapist could
confront me, a therapist couldgive me empathy and compassion,
which was helpful.
The most beautiful moments thatI had was with other men, either
turning to me and telling me,Morty, you're full of shit.

(04:40):
Like, I don't know what you'retalking about, this makes no
sense.
Or on the flip side, wow, Morty,that's painful.
Let me give you a hug.
It was through that experiencethat I'm like, okay, so I
instead of making pastries,being in a kitchen, it's
chaotic.
As you probably know, it's notthe healthiest environment.
The hours are crazy.

(05:00):
I could literally delicious,yum.
Although when you're working, itbecomes about performance.
And I could sit with people intheir pain, in their joy, in
their misery, in their goodtimes, in their low times, and
help them feel seen and safe.
That's what most people need.

(05:22):
It's people don't talk about itenough.
But what we're really lookingfor is how do I feel at home and
safe in my body?
That I don't need to run awayfrom my body.
So while I was there, I'm like,after a number of months, I'm
like, I saw the transformationthat it did for me.
And I'm like, I can have Morty'spastries, Morty's baked goods.

(05:42):
I'm like, that's not the legacyI want to live.
So I decided to change my path,and I'm super grateful I did.

SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Wow.
So from that point forward, youyou know, how does that work?
Like you went back to school,you're just like, you came out
and you're like, hey, this is mymission.
Like I understand it now.
This is my why.

SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
So I had a crazy story.
So I'm in treatment, and to goto a master's program, you need
an undergraduate degree.
And I mean, this is purecoincidence, God incidence,
whatever you want to believe.
I had a guy that I was in schoolwith in my undergraduate days.

(06:25):
He came to treatment and he saidto me, Morty, by the way, the
school got accredited after youwere there, and they're able to
backtrack to give you anundergraduate degree.
He's like, You have abachelor's.
I said, Come on, David, you'reyou can't.
He's like, I'm telling you.
So those days we didn't havecell phones.
I called my father, I said, Qcall the dean of the school and

(06:46):
see what the story is.
Three weeks later, I had abachelor's.
So literally, when I lefttreatment, I left in August of
2025.
I started school in September.
So, you know, it worked outbetter than I could have ever
imagined, as opposed to, youknow, sitting in undergrad for
four years.
So I was able just to literallyget out of treatment and then go

(07:08):
right into the field.

SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Okay.
So how does where in there didyou make the transition from,
and and before I say this, it Iknow that there's a lot of
overlap between social work andcoaching, but where in there did
you make the transition from thesocial work to what I'm guessing
is kind of like a it sounds abit more focused on group

(07:32):
coaching, men, like that sort ofbit.

SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
So I always knew that I wanted to work with men,
and I always knew that I wantedto do groups because people go
to therapy all the time.
Some get well, some don't.
The ones that don't get well goto a higher level of care.
Maybe they go to intensiveoutpatient four days a week.
The ones that are really notwell need to go to inpatient
three months, six months.

(07:57):
And I thought to myself, what'sthe difference between people
that go to therapy once a weekand people that go to, let's
say, an inpatient?
What type of therapy are theydoing that's different?
I recognize there's one piecethat they're away from their
environment, they're in a safeplace.
Okay.
If that alone was enough, wewouldn't have to do any therapy.
And I realized very simply, whenthey go to higher levels of

(08:19):
care, they go to a treatmentcenter, I was in groups 15 hours
a week.
And I realized when I was inthat environment that the
solution to most people'sproblem, which is generally
loneliness and shame, if I wasbrought up feeling shame about
myself, I can't go and healmyself of that shame.
Just like you're not gonna tella child to love themselves,

(08:39):
children have to be taught thatthey're loved.
And then once they're taughtthat, then they could go and
love themselves.
But most people that need higherlevels of care weren't taught
that.
Never believed that.
So people need to go totreatment to learn, oh, I can be
loved.
And the way they're gonna dothat is with other people in a
group to hold them accountable,to share with them the good

(09:00):
times and the bad times.
So when I was in treatment, Isaw the power of that and I
said, that's what I want to do.
And my dream is that more peopledid that.
The challenges we could talkabout is that men have trouble
being vulnerable, and then youwant to put them in a group with
other men.
It's like vulnerability on topof vulnerability, and it's too

(09:21):
far removed for them.
So I always knew I wanted to doit.
When I got to school,thankfully, they had a group a
program that was focused ondoing group therapy.
So I took that.
And then a lot of my work hasbeen in treatment centers and
then you know, starting my ownbusiness, you know, really
focused on groups.
But I there's something magicaland powerful about groups.
If you've never seen it, it'shard to believe it.

(09:43):
But if you've been to a groupthat you were felt safe and
people felt contained and thatyou would be protected by the
group leader, then nobody couldhurt you because you have
somebody there that's gonna keepyou safe.
It's powerful and magical.

SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah, absolutely, man.
So a couple of things.
I I run up until just recently,I I facilitated a men's group in
Olympia where I live.
And it was amazing, and I'vebeen a part of other groups
myself in the past, and it'sbeen it was the first time that
I stepped into that space wasabsolutely amazing to be able to

(10:19):
say some of these things, youknow, and and I tell the story
at times as like a backpack,right?
Basically, like walking into theroom with this figurative
backpack on that's full of likegiant fucking boulders, right?
And it was the first time in mylife when I started doing this
years ago of being able to likeopen up that backpack.

(10:40):
And and at first, maybe it waslike holding the backpack in my
chest, right?
And and I'm like, I'm here andI'm with other men, right?
Like, I'm not I'm not openingthis thing up, right?
Like, nobody needs to see what'sin here, you know.
But slowly really starting torealize that, like, hey,
everybody else in front of me'sgot a backpack on too.
And some of these guys, like,hey, he's pulling out rocks that

(11:03):
look really similar to mine.
It looks the same shape, thesame size, right?
That that there was somesimilarities in it, and and that
they didn't die.
Right.
And and so I think at times thatyou know, and I know it
definitely for myself and othermen that I've worked with in the
past, that there's this thatthere's this like perception of

(11:26):
of men of like perfectionism ortrying to that that have to have
this persona of having it allput together, right?
Like, I don't have any of theseproblems that you know that I've
got it all figured out.
Right.
And I think that that creates alot of a lot of pressure in men,

(11:46):
right?
A lot of I don't want to saynecessarily like undue
responsibility, because I thinkas we were talking, I think
responsibility is is a goodthing, but it's a it's a
pressure in there that most mendon't know how to at times maybe
get their arms around.
So, what what do you feel likein the work that you do and the

(12:09):
work that you've done?
What does that pressure looklike in real life with men?

SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
So, I first of all, the backpack metaphor, I want to
tell you it's not just ametaphor.
When we were when as a clientwhen I was there, so the
challenge with emotionalwell-being, it's sometimes so
it's not tangible.
It doesn't feel like yeah, Ihave so many problems, but
you're like, but you're not, youknow, it's hard to accept.
They literally would give you abackpack and they would tell you
to fill it up with stones andwalk around with that so that

(12:39):
you could start feeling andembodying, oh, this is a big
burden.
It does have it does take a tollon me.
So I want to let you know thatwe used to do that in real life
because it really helped usembody that.

SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
Yeah, to take it from like literal to you know,
figurative to literal sort ofthing.
Like that's some heavy ass shit.
It feels good when you take itoff, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, and and I think that'sa thing, especially in men's
work, that making those sort ofcorrelations with men in in a
physical sense of what it feelslike for them of like, hey, that

(13:14):
that weight, that hundred-poundpack that you just took off,
like that's shame, right?
That's perfectionism, that'ssome of these other things that
there's a feeling that goes on,and maybe you don't always
recognize it in your body, butit's there.

SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
It's interesting you say that because a lot of times
somebody will say, Oh, I justsaid this to my friend, it's no
big deal.
And they have a hard timeembodying it or feeling it.
So I'll say to their, I'll sayto them, Would you punch your
friend in the face?
No, I would never punch them inthe face.
I said to them, when youverbally harass them, that's
exactly what you're doing.
They're like, Oh, I didn'trealize that.

(13:53):
So sometimes doing things on alittle bit of the extreme helps
them embody it and feel it.
And that's what all this comesdown to.
It's all about we're afraid tobe in our bodies, we're afraid
to be home.
I don't like the way it feels.
So I'm gonna do anything I canto run away from it.
And really the invitation is howdo we bring ourselves back home
to our bodies?

SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
Yeah, and and I feel like at times there part of that
can also be a like kind of adefensive mechanism, right, of
setting up these walls and thisperfectionism, right, against
these, this shameful part of ourlife, right?
That you know, hey, I'm gonnaput up this front of how

(14:38):
everything is so perfect, right?
I've I've checked every box,I've I've done the career, I've
done all of these other sort ofthings.
Maybe at times because of, youknow, because of this shame.
Right.
So I'm I'm curious, when whathave you found in in your work

(14:59):
around what are some of thesesubtle ways that that I think at
times men don't even necessarilyrealize that they're they're
hiding.
And and to that point, even fromthemselves, right?
Like we can sit here and saythat, like, oh yeah, that that
really makes sense.
But I think at times that thatpeople can do this

(15:19):
subconsciously, right?
Without even like, oh no, Idon't, I don't do that, or
whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
So the first thing to recognize about perfectionism
is that if you're trying to seekout perfectionism and that's
your North Star and that's whereyou're trying to go to, you'll
never have serenity.
Because while it sounds cliche,nobody wants to accept the
reality, or a lot of peopledon't, that perfection is not
possible.
And there is this fantasy andthis illusion and an allure, one

(15:51):
day I'm just gonna get there.
And people try their whole lifeto get there, and unfortunately,
they never get there.
So that's the first piece oflike starting to accept it's
sad, it's unfortunate that it'snot available to you, but the
sooner you accept that, thesooner you could find peace.
When people are trying to beperfect, they work more than

(16:15):
they would like to.
They people please, they don'ttake time for themselves, they
put up a mask.
You know, you have a lot ofpeople in relationships, you
know, they'll be with a partneror friends, they'll be like,
after a while, like I don't evenknow you anymore.
And I'll say to them, you don'tknow them because you never let
they you know you never let themsee you, and they never let

(16:37):
themselves see you.
So you both two people walkedaround with a mask, and after a
certain time the masks comedown, it's inevitable that the
mask breaks, right?
If I'm always being nice and mypartner constantly belittles me,
and I go with them and I justsuck it up and be a man and be
okay with it, eventually I'mgonna act out in rage.
And the same thing with yourpartner, she never shared with

(17:00):
you her needs because you wereafraid you're gonna leave.
Eventually, the truth comes out.
It's like, of course, you neverknew each other.
So it's the challenge is whenyou're trying to aim for
perfection, it's in a service ofsomething.
People are not idiots.
I want to be perfect because Idon't want my partner to leave

(17:20):
me, but then they're not gonnaknow you.
But their fear, their fear oflosing somebody is so great that
they're willing to go againsttheir own integrity and who they
are and present somebody else.
So that's the challenge withperfectionism.
It's not I want to beperfectionist and for the sake
of being perfect, it's for acause.

(17:40):
And I'll ask people, I'll say,well, maybe it's worth it for
you to try to do that.
But you're in this office rightnow, we're having this
conversation, so obviouslythat's not working.
Maybe we could try somethingelse.

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Yeah, you know, I think that you know, if we were
to just say that that thestruggle is real, right?
That I think at any given timethat there's there's a real need
for all of us or a desire orwant to be to be accepted, to be
validated, to be approved, tonot be left, not not to be

(18:13):
abandoned, and that the thethought of that or the idea of
that can be terrifying.
Right.
So it's I feel like it it'scompletely normal that that
struggle is there, right?
Whether it's perfectionism orshame or whatever, it's it's the
mind's desire, right, to to keepus alive, to keep us safe, to

(18:40):
keep us out of those sort ofthings.
But the problem to you know whatyou pointed out, the the problem
is that in doing that, nobodyreally ever gets to see the real
the real me.
Right.
That that we're really literallywalking around having
conversations with other masksin life, right?

(19:02):
Like I've got a I've got a wholecollection of them that I carry
everywhere, you know, and thatand I've said for a long time
that it's that sort ofauthenticity and vulnerability
that creates the the glue forconnection, right?
That that's what actually makesthe that's the the like the

(19:26):
liquid that helps theelectricity transfer sort of
thing.
That if you don't have that,it's just two people, it's
almost like we're acting betweeneach other, right?
I've got my mask and you've gotyour mask.
And you know, I I feel like I'veseen a video of this.
It's like two people sittingthere and they've got like a
puppet, right, on theirshoulders.
Like, I've got a puppet andyou've got a puppet, and like

(19:48):
the puppets are havingconversations, but in reality,
the two people are, you know,they have different thoughts and
feelings.
So those two people are neverhaving a conversation.
So how does that like what doesthat look like for you, you
know, for you for yourself andthe men that you've seen?

(20:11):
When when a man finally startsto open up and let himself be
seen.
And and and I can tell you, evenfrom my own experience, like
that's terrifying, right?
And and I tell the storysometimes that like when I would
think about it then, my entirelife was on the line, or at
least it felt like it in thatmoment, right?

(20:31):
If I say anything, and and thelonger it goes, the scarier it
gets, right?
Because man, if I say anything,I've I've got a marriage, I've
got kids, I've got a house, I'vegot a career.
Like if I start saying, like,there's only the story I'm
telling myself in that moment islike there's there's only one
way that this could go.

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Right.
And so you you've got tocontinue to support that.
But what have you seen in yourexperience when a man finally
does open up and allow himselfto be imperfect?

SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
That's where the freedom is.
But like you said, as much asscary as it is, and I'm sure a
lot of people can relate to thisto the scariness, that's how
much freedom is on the otherside.
And the mask is again similarwith the rocks.
We would, in treatment, havepeople make masks, and when they
were talking in groups and itwasn't their authentic self, we

(21:25):
would say, put on your mask, andthey would start talking from
behind the mask, and it'd helppeople realize I actually have a
mask.
But like you said, if I'm in arelationship with somebody and
don't say and don't put myselfat risk of getting hurt again,
which means being vulnerable,sharing things that I may be
embarrassed of or may feeljudged on, I cannot have a close

(21:49):
relationship with that person.
The people that we're closest tocould hurt us the most because
they know the most about us.
But that's why we're so close tothem, because like you said, we
have all that glue.
It's terrifying, and whathappens a lot of times is men do
it and then they then theyretreat, which is so annoying.

(22:12):
Like they do like when we take arisk, they do it, and it's like
vulnerability overload.
They never thought they couldshare something.
They thought that if you reallyknew me, you wouldn't accept me.
I think this is a lot of a lotof thinking that men have.
If you really knew what I did,if you knew that my childhood or
my behavior, and you knew thetruth about me, you wouldn't
accept me and you wouldn't beloved.

(22:34):
I wouldn't be loved.
So they'll share something,they'll get a reaction that's
positive, and then they'll belike, okay, but the next thing
is gonna be even worse.
That for sure nobody's gonnarelate to.
And one of the ways that Ihelped men put down their masks,
and again, this takes time tobuild a group safety, but we
would do an exercise.

(22:55):
It was called 10 shame, 10 10shames and 10 regrets.
So we did a some work to helppeople feel safe in the group.
It was an established group,there was no new people coming
in.
People would write down 10things they're most shamed about
and 10 regrets that they have intheir lives.
We turned off the lights, put onsome candles, put on some music,

(23:18):
and people shared one at a time.
And the imitation was obviouslybefore was things that were
extreme.
So some people have done thingsthat other people don't have
space for.
So those we like we said, if youabused a child or an animal,
those things don't say.
Like I have space for that.
I work with people that do that,but most people don't have

(23:40):
capacity.
But if you've lied or cheated orall sorts of things, share that.
People share that with thelights closed, it makes it a lot
easier.
And when the group's ready, weturn the lights on, and people
look at each other.
And the just me as a clinicianwatching that, the sense of

(24:00):
connection, the sense of unity,the sense of wow, I've done all
these, what I've told myself arehorrible things.
That guy's done it, that guy'sdone it.
They've done things that are Ithink are worse.
The sense of freedom isunimaginable.

SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that thought of being ina room, right?
Dark, candlelit, however it is,and you know, just the the like
the energy that I imagine is inthere and hearing those other
sort of things.
Because I know for myself andand the men that I've worked

(24:41):
with that this might be the thefirst time in their life that
they've like they've beenthey've been listening to this
to themselves for years, right?
Uh in this dialogue that they'venever shared that with somebody.
And right, and I feel like it'sreally easy to tell ourselves
that that nobody else has everfelt this, that they've never

(25:02):
thought this or considered itwhen we've never, we've never
asked, right?
We've never opened up when we'venever shared.
How do you feel like that thatshame, right?
How does that show up in in ourrelationships with with our
partners and our kids or or ourfriends, right?
Because it doesn't go away.
I I feel like it it's it'spresent every, you know, that

(25:26):
that backpack is there with useverywhere we go.

SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Shame to me is the number one driver of loneliness.
Also, something else that'sinteresting to think about is
people want to be right.
I want to be right.
You want to, I don't know aboutyou.
Most people want to be right.
The way I think is right, what Ido is right and correct.
So if I walk around thinkingthat I'm worthless and that I
hate myself and that I have novalue and that I'm not enough,

(25:54):
I'm gonna want to do behaviorsthat remind me that I'm right.
So men will all people do this,but especially men when they
don't feel they're enough.
I'm a piece of shit.
Okay, so I could watchpornography.
That's that's who I am.
I have no value, anyways.

(26:15):
So yeah, I can be unethical inbusiness.
That's that's just who I am,anyways.
And it reinforces who they are,and then when they are that, or
they tell themselves the storythey tell themselves, they do
more of that.
Yeah, so there's it's it's scaryto think about how even though
it's not what we want, we'reconstantly doing things that

(26:35):
reinforce that that's who webelieve we are.
When the reality is, and this isthe is the reality, is that no
matter what I do or what I don'tdo, that never defines who I am.
Who I am has nothing to do withwhat I do or don't do, or did,
or will do.
Because if I'm judged by that,it's a problem.

(26:59):
To me, how do we come to a placewhere you have a parent, they
have a child, the child doesn'thave to do anything, they don't
do anything, all they do is eatand poop, yet they're still
love, they still have value.
The challenge is if you nevergot that, you don't know that.
But that's really what we'redealing with is how much money I

(27:20):
make doesn't infer my value,what I do for other people
doesn't give me value.
If I'm a good person, it hasnothing to do with that.
It has to do with I'm a humanbeing and I'm alive.
There's some force out there, nomatter what you believe, that
felt that I had a there wasenough, there was a reason for
me to be here.
And how do we help men acceptthat that's enough?
If you didn't provide for yourfamily, it doesn't define who

(27:42):
you are.
If you don't have a fancy car,it doesn't define who you are.
It's new, and again, it's scary,and that's where the and this is
important to rec.
I just as we're talking, I'mlike, the scarier it is, that's
how much freedom there is on theother side.
So if you're like very scared,that's fine.
Just know that's how muchfreedom you're gonna have.

SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Yeah, that's almost like an exciting opportunity,
right?
To that point of like, man, likethat's gonna be it's gonna be so
awesome when I can finally it'slike a bigger rock, right?
Right?
Like, hey, you can you can takeout all these small pebbles all
day long, right?
But you really want to take aload off your bag, take one of
those big rocks out of your bag.

SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
Right, and I want to say something interesting about
rocks because it once happenedin a group that I was running.
Somebody said he's the rock ofthe family.
And I went around the group andI said to them, When you think
of a rock, what do you do with arock?
So this guy says, I step on arock, I throw a rock, I ignore
rocks, and I said to this guy,You're the rock of your family.

(28:45):
Obviously, I knew the guy said,But the rock that I think you
are to your family is what yourpeers are saying.
You're a rock that's treatedlike a rock.
And that was like, you're right.
So there's in his head, he wasthe rock of the family, but the

(29:06):
rock of like he's but really hewas being treated poorly and he
needed to have boundaries.
But again, he was afraid, itwasn't he didn't have
permission.
But when people start realizing,I think a lot of it's what you
talked about if people don'teven realize it when you point
it out to them, they're they'rethey're like, it was so obvious,
how did I miss it?

(29:26):
But if you were never taught ornever given language around it,
then we blame ourselves that wedidn't know.
But if you were never taught andnever given language around it,
how could you know?

SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
Yeah, well, and I think that we there's so much of
our life that we pick up on ourown, right?
That we pick it up from societyand you know, social media and
everything else that it's not somuch of like, you know, this is
my life experience, this is mylived experience.

(29:58):
So, like, this is all that Iknow.
Right.
And and I learned maybe asgrowing up that you know men,
men don't cry, right?
Rub some dirt into it, I'll giveyou something to cry about.
Right.
Like you know, men are meant tobe the protectors of the family,
that emotions aren't helpful.
And so when that's our learnedexperience, that we don't know

(30:25):
anything different, right?
We don't know that there'sanother world out there, that
other people are experiencingthose sort of things.
And and I think it makes itreally hard in doing that,
right?
I I think it's reallychallenging for people to show
up authentically in life and inintimacy and and in all areas of

(30:50):
right, but be because they'vegot to be this like I've got to
be this rock, right?
And maybe in that guy's mind,like maybe he didn't he wasn't
coming to that conclusion in theend, but a rock really wasn't
something that was was great.

SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
Right.
It was kind of a negative thing.
And so I I feel like at timesthat men can get to this place
where you know, being the rockor carrying that bag, whatever
it might be, that they start toreally like shut down
emotionally.
Yeah, and and for some men,maybe they've never even opened

(31:27):
up to this.
Where would you suggest, youknow, for the man that's
starting to begin opening upthose doors, right?
Or taking that rock out, likewhere do they begin in that
process?

SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Right.
So it's tough to come like if Ihate myself, so people will say,
Oh, just love yourself.
And you're like, okay, great.
That's that's amazing advice.
If I could do it, I would, butwe don't know how to.
To me, I always tell my people,I say, I have unfortunate news
for you.
You may get hurt again.
Like throughout this process, ifyou're gonna take risks, taking

(32:09):
risks just means that you mayget hurt again.
And what you have now here is agroup of people that will
support you, that will protectyou.
And to me, my goal for thepeople that I work with, it's a
little bit out there, but youknow, bear with me is I tell
them we have to become more likeclowns.

(32:29):
I call it clown theory, which iswhen you have a clown and
they're juggling and the balldrops, and if I was in a group
and I was talking about it, Iwould juggle and show people
because I'm very Do you do youactually juggle when you do it?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
To show people.
It falls, the ball falls.
What do clowns do?
They don't walk away in shame,the show is over.
It's like, okay, the ball fell.
How do I pick that up and keepmoving forward?
How do I start to accept thatit's okay to be safe in my body?
Now, I think the number one wayfor men to heal, no one's ever

(33:04):
gonna do it.
It's not gonna happen.
I've suggested it to a lot ofpeople.
It's a good idea in theory, theytell me.
They know that it would helpthem immensely, but again, it's
terrifying, and I recognizethat.
Like, if I could only do onething in this world the rest of
my life, this is what I woulddo.
Get men to do the followingthing.
I would travel across the worldto do this.
I'm just like, I'll just bedoing it myself.

(33:26):
Which is get men in a room anddo embodied movement or ecstatic
dance.
I'm a man, build safety, buildthe container.
I say to them, come with me tothe class.
I'm gonna be there with you, I'mgonna support you in it.
That's how I felt, that's how Ifound a lot of my healing.
The problem is you're afraid toshow up as you are, you're
afraid people are gonna judgeyou.

(33:46):
Okay, here we're in a space.
I'm gonna be here with you.
People may judge you, they maynot judge you, and you're gonna
start practicing.
And if I decide right now tomove my hand like this, even
though other people would belike, what the hell is he doing?
The music's moving slowly.
Why is he doing this?
It's a practice, and I don'tcare about them.
What they think about me is noneof my business.

(34:07):
Because we could talk aboutthese skills from today till
tomorrow, but if we don'tactually practice them and
embody them, it's gonna beuseless.
So to me, it's telling a guy,because maybe that's an extreme
example, telling a guy, you knowwhat I want you to do for now on
once a week, I want you to do anactivity with yourself.
Do an act like, what do youmean?

(34:27):
I'm like, I understand you havea partner, I understand you have
friends, I want you to start torealize that you're a safe
person to hang out with, thatyou can entertain yourself, that
you don't need to numb or runaway or do this, that, or the
other.
I remember once early on in myjourney, I wanted to do that.
I'm like, I'm gonna go playbowling.
I said, could I get bowling lanefor two people?
They said, Who's the otherperson?

(34:49):
I said, I need for two.
I played it, yeah, me and myinner child.
Exactly.
And of like, how do we startrealizing that I'm a safe enough
person to hang out with, withmyself?
So there's the challenge iseverybody wants something that's
cool, that's sexy, that'sexciting.
That's well, yeah, if you fastfor a month straight, then

(35:09):
you'll feel better.
People have an easier timeaccepting that challenge than
getting into their body andgoing to an ecstatic movement
class.
And I think people have toaccept that it's actually not
that exciting in the way thatthey think about it.
That's not that sexy on theoutside, but on the inside, when
you learn it's my body, I canmove how I want, the freedom

(35:31):
that's on the other side ofthat, again, how scary is that
and how terrifying is that alot.
But on the other side, as youstart realizing in this world,
I'm going to move how feelscomfortable for me.
If other people don't like it,they can get out of the way.
They don't have to be near me.
That's fine.
But I'm also gonna learn,because when you're doing
ecstatic movement, if you made amisstep, there isn't it doesn't

(35:54):
happen because there is nomisstep.
We're so into like this is whatI have to do.
Who told you that's what youhave to do?
This whole life is an improvlife, anyways.
Everyone's doing improv.
I don't do improv.
Well, we're having thisconversation now.
Did you have any idea what I wasgonna tell you?
No, so then we're doing improvanyways, so why not lean into it
and have fun with it?

SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
So I I do, I do.
You're talking about ecstaticdance.
I practice a bit of salsa andbachata dancing.
Yeah, now there's a lot ofsteps.

SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
And but I love the idea of the ecstatic, right?
To where there's no wrong stepor no wrong move.
Because I tell you what, for thelongest time uh I struggled
remembering the steps and themoves, right?
Like I would love a dance wherethere wasn't that weight of like
doing it right or doing itwrong, that you're kind of

(36:50):
really just able to do howeverit is that comes to you.
But with that in mind, I mean,that is that's challenging to
break out of that, right?
Because for the longest time,we've and and I I know for
myself, like, you know, hey, no,things have to be a certain way,
right?
That I have to act in a certainway, I've got an image to

(37:14):
uphold, right?
That I can't just be breakingdown everywhere, right?
I can't be super emotional aboutthese things.
Like, I have to be able tomaintain that persona.
And so, yeah, I love that idea.
Now, granted, I don't know thateverybody's gonna start going to

(37:35):
a static dancing, but I thinkthe idea of like, what is one
thing that I can do today thatis taking action towards opening
it up, right?
In really small sort of microsort of ways.

SPEAKER_00 (37:52):
Right.
That's the extreme, and that'slike if you really want to get
well really fast, just do thatfor a month.
You'll probably get really well,really fast.
But again, that's a goal, andit's very hard to get there
unless you've done a lot of thedeeper work.
But it's about, to me, it's socliche, it's about trying
something new, doing somethingsmall.

(38:12):
You don't want to risk sayingthat to your partner because
it's too, you're afraid of that.
How about at the store?
Next time you go, instead ofwalking around Walmart for 45
minutes trying to find youritem, take a risk and ask
somebody for help.
It's so micro that it seemsinsignificant, but the shifts
are huge because for thatperson, if they're so afraid of
it, again, the more afraid youare, the more freedom there is

(38:35):
on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
Yeah, I love that.
It's it's finding, you know, Ithink what you were talking a
little bit about earlier was thelike a confirmation bias, right?
That where people find what itis that they're looking for,
right?
And as we were talking aboutgratitude earlier as well,
right?
That when people are expectingfor things to go bad, that often

(39:04):
that that's you know, throughtheir energy or whatever it is,
that that's how things end up,right?
And so something that that I'vekind of come back around to a
lot lately, you know, for thelongest time I didn't really
understand where people wouldsay to get up and make your bed
every day.
All right, like, hey, firstthing in the morning, get up and

(39:25):
make your bed.
Like, first action item, maybeduring a coaching session.
I don't want you to do anythingelse tomorrow morning.
I want you to make a wake up andmake your bed first thing.
And it's it's really changingthe relationship with yourself
around doing things and beingsuccessful.

unknown (39:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
Right.
And so going back to that,right, like getting up in the
morning and making your bed isshowing yourself that like, hey,
I I decided that I was gonna getup tomorrow this morning and
make my bed.
And in fact, I followed throughwith it, I did it, and
everything turned out okay.
Right.
So instead of, you know, to yourpoint, instead of going to your

(40:06):
partner or whatever it is and belike, man, I've got some shit
that I have been withholdingforever, let me just let it all
out.
Yeah, like it's gonna, it'sgonna rock the boat, you know.
But starting with those thingsthat, yeah, maybe it is looking
for something at the grocerystore, expressing gratitude to
somebody, right?
Whatever those smallest sort ofthings might be, but starting

(40:30):
with uh this mentality of likeone percent better, right?
And and building thatconfirmation bias, swinging it
from a sense of negativity to asense of of you know, I guess
positivity would be the otherside of that, to where, like,
hey, you know what?
Like, I can do this, andsometimes maybe it doesn't go

(40:52):
perfectly, but I survive it andI've still done it.

SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
So and one one suggestion for people, because
many times people will say,Well, I feel uncomfortable or I
feel discomfort in my body whenI think about doing that, I feel
anxious, and it's so easy tonegate that and say, Oh, don't
worry, do it anyways.
And it's very old school, andwhether it works or not's

(41:16):
debatable, but it's not safe,and it's not then repeatable.
If every time I feel discomfortand I have to push through it,
and it's so hard, it's not gonnabe manageable.
And what I remind people iscould you notice a part in your
body that does feel safe?
I know the first thing thatcomes up is I notice tension in
my chest.
Okay.
So you have a large body,there's a lot of places there.

(41:39):
Do you notice maybe your pinky?
That feels safe and okay.
I'm like, okay, just let's sitwith that and notice it.
And as they do that, they stop,you know.
I mean, we're focused, how doesit go?
Where focus goes, where energygoes, focus, where focus goes,
energy flows.
If I keep on focusing andthinking about I feel

(42:00):
discomfort, it's gonna expand.
But I notice that, oh, my bodyactually does feel safe.
There's a part of me that'ssafe, the body will itself
relax.
So you don't have to necessarilyforce it, it's looking for the
pieces that do feel safe andokay.

SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Yeah, I love that.
I think there's a a lot to bedone in the arena of men's work
and feeling things and energyand things like that.
It's it's funny becausepreviously in my life, like most
of my life, I would have thoughtit was just it was all just

(42:37):
crazy shit, you know.
It's something that I'm stillexploring, but it's it's
interesting how how things canchange like that.
So so I want to also look at I Iunderstand that that you've
worked with men healing fromaddiction and trauma and and old
wounds and whatnot.
What do you feel like ismisunderstood about recovery or

(43:01):
or like emotional healing formen?

SPEAKER_00 (43:05):
The most misunderstood piece is that
people think men don't need it,or men think then they don't
need it, or women don't supporttheir men in it.
So you'll have men that thepartners will tell them, I want
you to be more vulnerable, Iwant you to be more emotional, I
want you to feel your feelings,and they'll come home from work.
They'll be like, Okay, I'm gonnatake a risk, I'm gonna try

(43:26):
something new.
They're gonna share somethingthat didn't go good that day.
And their partner says, Excuseme, you're supposed to be the
strong one.
What do you mean?
I had a bad day.
What's going on?
You have no right to share thatwith me.
So we have a world where we wantmen to be vulnerable, yet when
then when when then they arevulnerable, we have many people
that shut them down.

(43:52):
And as much as yeah, go keepcomment on that.

SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
Go ahead.
Yeah, no, I was just gonna saythat I think that there is
definitely a I think at timeswhat can happen, right, is that
it goes from no vulnerability toan extreme of vulnerability,
right?
That there is a happy middleground where it's like

(44:19):
vulnerability is not aboutpuking out your emotions or
unloading sort of thing.
Because I don't think anybodywants to bear the brunt of
anybody's full emotional load,right?
But being able to be expressiveand to be present is is a start.

SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
Right, I like that, right?
It's true.
Sometimes people will go fromzero to a hundred, and it's
important to be careful aboutthat because it sometimes it is
too much for the other person.

SPEAKER_01 (44:50):
Yeah.
How do you feel like, you know,and with that and understanding
that maybe these men are, youknow, whether it's recovery and
and where they've been and theirthe trauma and the old wounds,
how do you feel like how do youfeel like that we can balance

(45:10):
right compassion for for youknow, maybe where we've been in
the past with our our ownownership for where we're we're
going, right?
Knowing that, like, yeah, I'veI've I've got these things, I've
I've got this past.
But having compassion for whereI was at then or where they're

(45:33):
at then and and the directionthat they're going now.
How do we balance that?

SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
It's I don't think it's a balance.
I think people need an unlimitedcompassion for themselves about
where they've been.
Like I think that's totallyokay.
People have this fear that ifthey have too much compassion,
then they're not gonna be ableto move forward.
It's fascinating.
I speak to people all the timeand they'll talk about how
they're not good parents, thatthey're not showing up for their

(46:01):
children and they're not doinggood enough.
I'll say to them, that'sinteresting because when we talk
about your parents and yourupbringing, all you say is
positive things about them,despite the fact that they were
far worse than than you were toyour kids.
And the point of that is is tohelp people to realize that most
of our issues were responsiblefor it, but they were given to

(46:22):
us.
If I grew up in a very poorfamily and I didn't have proper
clothing and I was bulliedbecause of that, it's not my I
don't have to blame myself forthat.
If I was abused as a child, Idon't have to blame myself for
that.
So to me, it's how do I look atmy past and realize that most of
the things I dealt with weren'tmy fault?

(46:43):
I didn't ask for them.
I didn't want them.
I would have done anything forthem not to have happened to me.
And yes, and and now it happenedto me, and I am responsible for
them.
So to me, it's unlimitedcompassion about the past with
also unlimited optimism for thefuture.
Because what happens, especiallywith men, is they'll try
something.
They'll be like, the last time Iwent to coaching was 20 years

(47:05):
ago.
What happened?
It didn't work, so I said, screwit.
And I say to them, but there's86 things that you could try
that are not coaching that maybeyou could get better with.
Did you try cold exposure?
Did you try meditation?
Did you try psychedelics?
Did you try breathing?
Did you try CBT?
I mean, there's endless amountsof things to try.
I think men, we get veryfrustrated, like, try to do it,

(47:28):
I can't fix it, I give up.
No, it's okay.
Something didn't work, maybethat's not the right approach
for you.
Keep trying till you findsomething.
If you tried 86 things and thenyou were at your end, call me.
I'll speak to you for free, andwe can figure out an 87 thing.
But there's so many modalitiesout there that people need to
continue feeling hope forthemselves.

SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
Yeah, you know, I I love that you bring up that
point about you know the thepast where you know about still
accepting responsibility for itand and responsibility for the
direction and where it goesafter that, right?
Like after kind ofacknowledging, you know, and and

(48:11):
I too believe, you know, andpart of my I guess methodology
and coaching is at times thissense of of what I call like
universal validation, right?
And and it's basically like nomatter what happened in the
past, no matter what thesituation was, like it there's
always it can always makeperfect sense that that why that

(48:34):
happened at that time in thelife, right?
Like, yeah, it makes sense withyour upbringing and your
environment and all of theseother sort of and that's not to
say that like having this victimmentality, right?
But the reality was that like itit took all of those things
leading up to that to shape youinto the person that you were.

(48:55):
So it makes perfect sense thatthat's exactly the way that you
are today, right?
That that's the way that maybeyou've acted in the past or
you've been emotionally shutdown or reserved, or reserved,
or carrying the shame.
Like nobody ever showed youright what it was like to share
or to express that.

(49:16):
And now that you know that, youcan start taking responsibility
for what this looks like in thefuture, right?
You are the captain of yourshift, your ship.

SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
And that's good news.
They used to say, my therapistwould tell me back in the day,
he said, Morty, I have good newsfor you.
I said, What's the good news?
If you want to get well, yourparents don't need to change.
You need to change.
If you if you're if you're inrecovery, dependent on someone
else changing, you're fucked.
But the great news is that thisis on you.

(49:50):
And while it's like I wish theywould change for me to get
better, it wasn't the reality.
And I had to accept that.
And but I knew that ultimately,like you said, I was the captain
of my ship, and now was mychoice was I gonna get well or
not.

SPEAKER_01 (50:04):
Yeah.
So one thing, one uh I feel liketheme that I've heard again and
again throughout thisconversation is is this sense of
of not having to be perfect inorder to be worthy.
Right?
That it's that it's a kind of aGod given right sort of thing,

(50:26):
of of this sense of worthiness,that it's not based on whether
or not you've done somethingright.
Right?
What what does that truth meanto you personally?

SPEAKER_00 (50:40):
That's a deep question.
I was on a bit of a spiritualjourney a few weeks ago.
It was the Jewish New Year, RoshHashanah.
I was in I was in Ukraine.
There was like a pilgrimage ofsorts for about 85,000 people
go.
And I'm sitting there, and tome, one of my taglines when it

(51:01):
comes to spirituality, well, youknow the difference between
spirituality and religion.
Religion is for people thatdon't want to go to hell, and
spirituality is for those thathave already been there.
So being a very spiritualperson, I always tell myself, I
tell people too, I say, stoppraying and start talking.

(51:21):
I believe in God.
I don't I don't pray to Godanymore.
Nobody's gonna tell me in a bookwhat to tell my God.
If it's a person, no one's gonnatell me what to tell my partner,
right?
Oh, these people wrote a book athousand years ago.
This is what you tell yourpartner at nine o'clock in the
morning.
Fuck that.
There's value in it and there'sbeauty.
For me, I didn't find value init anymore.
For me, I'm like, this is arelationship between me and God.

(51:44):
I'm gonna talk in my ownlanguage.
I speak English, I understandthat well.
God understands that.
And I'm sitting there havingthis conversation, and part of
talking to God to me islistening.
If not, we're not in arelationship.
If all I did is somebody's talk,we're not in a relationship.
I'm thinking about my year andreflecting on the last year and
what do I want this year?

(52:04):
And I saw that I was judging howI'm doing by how successful I am
financially.
Like if I make X amount ofmoney, that means I have value.
That means I did enough.
And I'll share this with you,and whoever's watching, I'll
share this to them so they canknow.
I realize in that moment, and Imy theme for this year is in

(52:31):
English, it goes like this nomatter what I do or what I don't
do, no matter how much money Imake, no matter if I'm in a
relationship, not in arelationship, no matter if I
have children, nothing makes adifference.
I still have value.
My value doesn't come from whatI do, it comes from who I am.
And who I am is not influencedby what I do.

(52:53):
At the core, I'm a child of God.
That means I have worth, thatmeans I have value.
It means that no matter what Ido, right?
And I work with a lot of peoplethat have done a lot of horrible
things, and society would saythey should be executed, they
should be shamed publicly.
And I tell them no matter whatyou've done, you have value.

(53:14):
Your behavior is awful, you needconsequences.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And you cannot do anything thatwill ever take that away from
you.
It's a tall order, it's a tallask, but in a way it makes
things so much easier.
Like, did I have a good day or abad day?
Is not based on did I do enoughor did I work hard enough.

(53:37):
It's did I show up and beauthentic?
Was I true to myself?
Was I who I was meant to be?
And that's all I could doanyways, and all I have control
over.

SPEAKER_01 (53:49):
Yeah, it sounds like that's a space that in accepting
that really opens up the doorsfor someone to show up uh
authentically, right, as theirmost authentic sort of self.

SPEAKER_00 (54:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:08):
And that's been I mean, that with this entire
conversation, right, is it's astruggle.
But you know, for myself, Ithink in the beginning, just
identifying what that lookedlike, right?
That discerning between uh is itpeople pleasing or is it a mask?

(54:31):
Right?
That I you know, I mean welaugh, but it's like it's true.
I didn't even know, I didn'ttruly know what I thought about
that, right?
Because for so long my ownthoughts were derived from what
I expected the outcome to be.

unknown (54:47):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
Right.
What do you feel?
I mean, what what doesauthenticity look like for you
and the the men that have beendoing the work with you from day
to day?

SPEAKER_00 (55:00):
Scott Peck, uh he wrote a book a long time ago.
He said mental health is acommitment to reality at all
costs.
And to me, vulnerability is acommitment to truth at all
costs.
If my partner asks me if I didsomething and I didn't do it,
and I'm and I'm gonna lie to herbecause I want her to be happy,
and I think that that's gonna bebetter for our relationship.

(55:23):
That's not a commitment to beingauthentic.
That's not a commitment totruth.
That's a commitment to so she'sgonna be happy with me, she's
not gonna be happy with me,she's gonna be happy with the
version of me that I'm not.
That's not authentic, that's notconnection, it's not intimacy.
It's actually what people don'trealize, it's actually

(55:46):
disconnection.
Being inauthentic is lying.
I know lying is a strong word,but it's true.
It's distrust.
It's like going over to mypartner and saying, Oh, I uh I
went uh I went to the storetoday and I and I didn't do it.
Just because it's passive, justbecause it's still it breeds
disconnection.
So authenticity is a commitmentto trust at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 (56:14):
Yeah, that that reminds me of a a time when I
was having this conversationwith somebody that I that I
knew, and it was around it wasit was kind of the story that's

(56:35):
trying to decide how it is thatI that I want to tell this
story, but it it was it was thebetween kind of the transparency
and honesty, and and I don'tknow if that's something that
you've ever come across, youknow.
I I used to always think thatlike, oh, hey, I I I want
everybody to be honest, but inreality, like I want somebody to
be forthcoming about these sortof things.

(56:59):
And so what I heard youdescribe, right, was about like
just straight up deciding, like,I think I'm going to do in this
moment what I've decided is thebest outcome for that.
Right.
And and the the story that I wasthinking of was this this person
that I knew was sharing with mehow at times he would he would
go out after work, right?

(57:20):
And maybe his wife knew that hewould tell his wife at the time
that you know he would leavework at 3 p.m.
He would tell his wife at 5 p.m.
Like I and he would buy himselftwo hours to like go down to the
bar, right?
And he's telling me all of thesesort of things, and I'm like,
damn man, and I I I gotta try tomake sure not to to use names in

(57:44):
this, right?
But I'm like, damn man, likedon't don't you think that's a
problem?
Yeah, I was like, well, what'sthe deal?
You know, and he's like, no,man, if she knew that like I was
out here at the bar, like shejust doesn't get it, she doesn't
understand, right?
And and I was like, man, youknow, and and this kind of going
back to what we said earlierabout men kind of calling each

(58:06):
other forward and and pointingthings out and having this
conversation, it it would havebeen really easy for me in that
moment to be like, ah, yeah,right.
Like, I I you know, I I hearyou, man.
But instead I called him outlike, man, I it sounds to me
like like you guys just don't,you know, either she doesn't

(58:27):
understand the fact of this timethat you need after work, that
maybe this is how you unwind, ormaybe you're not understanding
her perspective about you knowwhy it is that you're doing
this.
Maybe, maybe you're drinking toomuch, maybe these other things,
but but doing going about itthat way is is is just it's not

(58:48):
authentic, right?
Like again, going back to themasks, like you're putting
forward a person that'scompletely different in this
time, and you're living anentirely ulterior life.
And so at the end of thatconversation, unfortunately, he
was kind of like, Yeah.
Anyways, right, but it was itwas kind of those people, right,

(59:12):
that you have that conversationwith that they're either they've
started to consider differenttruths and authenticity and how
that impacts our lives, right?
Like, I can't imagine that it'sand and I know for myself, I
don't even have to imagine it,that not living authentically
and and trying to keep thatorchestrated, right?

(59:34):
It's just it's it's a hugeweight, it's a hurry, huge
burden to bear, right?
That instead the idea would belike, hey, let's sit down and
have a conversation about medoing this, right?
And and I'd under I'd like tounderstand from your perspective
the reasons that it's upsettingfor you, right, in whatever way
it is.

(59:55):
Like, okay, you know, maybe youwant me to come home and spend
more time with the family.
I want to be able to have anopportunity to unwind after
work.
And at the end of all of that,like if we're not a good match,
then we need to explore whatthat means for our relationship.
Right.
But again, going back to liketwo people sitting at a table

(01:00:18):
with their their dolls, right?
Having conversations with eachother that are completely
different than the people thatare actually running the dolls.
And it just it blows my mindthat and I was one of those
people, right?
But it blows my mind lookingback that that is so prevalent.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:39):
Something important that you mentioned I think is
underrated, which is we talkabout this thing of
understanding.
Well, my partner's not going tounderstand why I enjoy watching
sports.
And it's like, well, my partnerdoesn't have to understand why I
enjoy doing something.
But can my partner be open tounderstanding this is what I
need, even if they don'tunderstand it?

(01:00:59):
My partner has a lot of needsthat I don't understand.
To me, it makes no sense.
I'm like, why do you need totake an hour and a half to get
ready in the morning?
That doesn't make sense to me.
I don't need that.
But it's like, oh, that's whatshe needs.
I don't know.
I mean, I understand itconceptually, but it's like, I
don't understand it, I don't getit, I don't relate to it.
But what's important to me isnot about the details.

(01:01:21):
It's that's what you need,great.
Even if I don't understand it,we're not going to be
understood, even with friends.
They don't understand it.
It's like, oh, that's a Mortything.
That's what he likes.
Do they like it?
No, but it doesn't make adifference if they don't
understand it.
It's I'm in a relationship withyou.
What do you need?
If I understand it, great.
If I don't understand it, alsogreat, because it doesn't make a

(01:01:41):
difference.
It wasn't about understanding.
It was about how can I show upfor you and what you need.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:47):
Yeah.
Yeah, that that really makes methink of just the agreements
that we have in an in a race ina relationship, right?
And that can be a friendship,partnership, marriage, wife,
what you know, whatever it is,your partner.
But the agreements that we westep into in or we agree to when
we're signing up to that andreally, you know, defining

(01:02:11):
those.
And when they don't fit thatplace in our life anymore, like
stepping back to the table andreassessing those agreements to
to have a better to have abetter understanding, right?
Of to your point, right?
Like I don't necessarily have tounderstand it to be okay with

(01:02:32):
it, right?
But the other per the person onthe other side of that, right,
part of that agreement ishonesty.
Right.
And so you know, part of thatagreement might be like, okay,
well, if you're gonna do this,I'm not going to necessarily
understand it, and that's okay.
But part of this agreement forme is that these other sort of

(01:02:54):
situations are met, or thiscriteria of the agreement,
right?
That that they're not they'renot permanent, right?
That they're the you can go backto re renegotiation, it doesn't
have to be just once a year orwhatever, you know, and that
people change.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:12):
Right.
Right, and people need to be,yeah.
I mean, there's still theseconversations are endless
because people are so complexand each person is so different.
And just as soon as you know, Ithink I know my friend well,
then they shift or they changeor they evolve and I evolve.
And it's so important to be openthat if I'm not evolving and I'm

(01:03:34):
not changing and they're notchanging, and we don't
continuously have conversations.
Okay, I know this is what weneeded five years ago, quite a
different place now.
Like I used to be had a friend,if I didn't call him back that
day, he would go into a panic asif I didn't care about him
anymore.
That was on his trauma.
So I was very mindful of thatand I made sure to do that.

(01:03:54):
But as we evolved and grew, he'slike, Morty, it's not it's not
urgent.
Like, you don't have to don'tworry about that anymore.
We have to be open to that.
And to me, if we're not changingand not evolving, then that's
also to me not a it's not theway that I would want to live.
My relationships are constantlychanging and evolving.

(01:04:14):
That's just and it's it keeps itfresh and exciting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, we're that's thatthat's like the spice of life,
right?
So any of those sort of thingsthat I would hate to think that
I ended up at the end of my lifeexactly the same way I I was
when I when I started it.
Right.
And and kind of to that point,right, that that I think for a

(01:04:41):
lot of these sort of things attimes that and that's why
community, right, and thesemen's groups and the men's work
in general is so important is ashaving a place, right, where
these this sort of awareness canbe brought forth, right?

(01:05:01):
With in a safe place with othermen and a container where you
can be called out, you know,called forward for these other
sort of things that maybe youdon't see.

unknown (01:05:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:11):
Right.
And from there, having beinghaving enough like having an
initiative of self-leadershipfor yourself to to really start
to reframe right your youridentity and who it is.
And and at the end of that, likeall of that only happens from

(01:05:35):
taking action.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:37):
Right.
We could talk about this fromtoday till tomorrow, but nothing
will shift if we don't do thingsdifferent.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:46):
Yeah.
Well, hey, Morty Man, this was asuper powerful conversation.
I really enjoyed having it.
I think that I think that everyman listening can really relate
to that tension between who wethink we are, or I guess better
said, like who we think weshould be and who we actually

(01:06:07):
are, right?
I think you know, between ourthese those rules that we write
for ourselves and the beliefthat that that there can be a
tension at times when those aretwo different things.
So yeah.
So how how can the the men thatwere listening to this they how
can they connect with you more?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:28):
If they want to reach out to me, they could go
to my website,thegamechangergroup.com.
I'm sure it'll be in the shownotes.
You could email me, schedule atime to meet with me.
I am delighted to meet withpeople and really connect with
them.
If you're professionals and wantto start working with men and
understand more about that work,happy to connect as well.

(01:06:49):
There's a shortage of peoplethat are willing to support men,
and we need more people that arewilling to do that in a way that
is authentic and real and iscompassionate.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:04):
Yeah.
I feel that, man.
Well, hey guys, if thisconversation hit home for you
today, share it with a brotherwho needs it, right?
And as as always, keep doing thework and keep evolving.
And I'll see you in the nextone.
Hey, before you go, this podcastis just the surface.
The real work happens inside theEvolve Men Brotherhood.

(01:07:25):
This is our private community ofmen committed to leading
themselves boldly, buildingconfidence, and sharpening one
another in the fire.
Registration officially opensDecember 1st, and we kick off
our Brotherhood calls togetherbeginning in January 2026.
But you can get on the listtoday and be the first to claim
your spot.
If you're tired of going to lifealone and you're ready for true

(01:07:46):
accountability, support, andconnection with men who get it,
head to EvolvementProject.comslash Brotherhood.
Don't just listen, step into theBrotherhood.
I'll see you inside.