August 7, 2025 • 53 mins
We know these can be loaded words! Ryan and Liz talk through what it means to be an expat, and what it means to be an immigrant, both in theory and in practice. We share some stories of how we 🇿🇦🇺🇸 are labeled and treated, and Psychologist Ryan talks through how difficult it can be to be shoved into a box that might not feel like you fit into. Our show is called Expats Listen, but we identify as both, and we are most definitely here for the Immigrants just as much as the Expats!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Expats Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz, how was your week? I had a very busy week, Liz.
I've got a lot of contacts and connections in South Africa who
I just haven't been keeping up to date with.
(00:22):
And I actually got back into it this week and I realized how
much of a difference it makes tobe able to speak to those
people. And just a shout out to my
wonderful friends in South Africa.
I've missed you. I'm sorry I've been so scarce,
but it's really good to be talking to you guys again.
And you, Liz? Yeah, I have had a busy week.
(00:44):
It has been a hot week. It's always difficult with Mr.
Henry, especially because he loves to walk and he loves to go
on very long walks, but he does not enjoy.
Heat Do you want to share with him his new method of
controlling the amount of walking he does in the heat?
(01:05):
This dog is so manipulative because he is so smart.
So a few weeks ago he hurt his paw.
He must have stepped on something or something got stuck
between his toes and he picked up his little paw and he started
hopping a bit. So I had to pick him up and
carry him home. We live on the European 4th
(01:26):
floor, which is the American 5thfloor with no elevator.
So I had to carry him up all of the stairs and he took a couple
of days to get better, but then he was fully healed.
Then I took him out this week and we went to this park where
it's quite safe and like fully fenced in and lots of dogs can
run without their leash and it'sbig enough for humans to run as
(01:50):
well. Like it's a nice big loop.
And I started to run, and Mr. Henry decided he did not want to
run in that heat, so he picked his little paw up and started
hopping. And I ran over to him, checked
his paw. What's wrong?
Oh no. And there was nothing wrong with
his paw. As soon as I came back over to
him, he put it down and he walked normally.
I was like, okay, that's weird, maybe something was stuck in it
(02:12):
and it's gone now. And then I started running again
and he picked his paw up again because there was nothing in his
paw. He just knew that if he was
hopping with one paw in the air,I would not run away from him
and I would walk slowly the way he wanted to walk on his walk in
the heat. And that is our super evil
(02:34):
genius dog who has learnt his new trick.
Hell of a week for him too. Well, what are we talking about
this week, Ryan? Today is a big topic.
Today we're talking about the expat versus immigrant debate.
What is an expat, What is an immigrant?
And what do those things mean between each other?
Yeah. I think they're both such loaded
(02:56):
words these days that they bringsuch different pictures to mind.
And I think that there's a lot of people who are using one word
or another as a way to put people down and as a way to put
other people into a class that'sthan whatever they view
themselves as. Yeah, because I think it's such
(03:18):
a loaded topic that everyone hastheir own definition of it and
their own understanding of what it means and who it applies to
and what kind of repercussions and implications they carry.
And I think that that's really what it is that shapes the world
that we're living in. And so many people really get
treated differently because of it.
(03:39):
And I find it to be difficult. And I don't know if we're going
to be able to find any kind of final answer on how to process
this whole matter. But I do think that it's a
discussion that needs to be had,at the very least with yourself
to understand where you fit in on this big debate.
Yes, I guess a a great place forus to start maybe is dictionary
(04:01):
definitions, right. So let's try with the Oxford
Dictionary definition, which says that an expat is a person
who lives outside of their native country and an immigrant
is a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign
country. So the only real difference
between the Oxford Dictionary definitions is that word
(04:22):
permanent. Permanent.
What does that mean? How long is permanent?
Is it forever? I guess right?
But who knows what forever is? And are people really deciding
on forever? Because things change, and
whoever it is that's going to measure this at the end of
forever is the only person who'sgoing to be able to say yes,
(04:44):
indeed, that person came to livehere forever.
So I don't know whether or not that Oxford Dictionary
definition is that helpful, if I'm honest, because it also
occurs to me that it says for anexpat being a person who lives
outside their native country andan immigrant, a person who comes
to live permanently in a foreigncountry is really dependent on
(05:06):
who's making that call. Is it me?
Is it them? And then I get to choose,
because that definition applies to pretty much anyone who's not
living in their home country. Yeah.
So the way we see it, I think there's really four different
ways that people distinguish between expats and immigrants.
The first is what I think is themost common and what we
(05:29):
experience the most on a day-to-day basis, which is race
and class. So Liz, that's me.
I am white, I am American. I have a Navy blue passport.
So I'm an expat. And I'm brown, I'm from Africa,
and I have a green passport. And what that means in a global
(05:51):
sense is that I'm an immigrant. And if the color of my skin
doesn't give it away immediately, the color of my
passport will because I'm carrying a large number of
markers of people who are traditionally considered as
being immigrants, which is kind of heavy.
To know that I've got that designation and classification
(06:12):
without even opening up my mouthand saying anything about
myself. Very strange.
And I think it becomes even moreinteresting when you put us
together because it seems reallyclear for people that I am the
ex pet and Ryan is the immigrant.
But then when they find out thatwe're married, we don't nicely
fit into a box anymore. And are we a couple that are ex
(06:36):
pet immigrants? Are we ex pets?
Are we immigrants? Can we be one of those things
when one of us is white and American and the other is brown
and African? Or who are we now?
It's a very complicated thing, even between us.
Because I feel as though even I look at Liz as being an expat
and I look at myself as being animmigrant because I myself have
(06:59):
given this designation to myself.
Because I feel as though I identify more with the people
who are coming here with a lowerclass and a lower social status.
And that's a bit difficult sometimes.
Because when we present ourselves to society, we aren't
on the same page of how we expect other people to view us.
(07:22):
So when we go places, I often find myself needing to interact
with people in a very cagey way while they figure out which box
I should be put in. The same way that Liz is
explaining how tricky it can be to judge us.
Because an example is there are stereotypes around people who
(07:42):
look like me. And the question here in
Portugal would be, well, are youan Uber driver?
Are you an Uber Eats driver? What kind of restaurant do you
work in as a cook in the back? And those are the immediate
expectations. And when we go to maybe more
westernized countries where there's been maybe many years
(08:06):
worth of brown people immigrating, one of the
assumptions there, so let's say in America or in the UK or in
Australia, the expectation thereis that we are some kind of IT
couple because the assumption isthat I could only work in IT
because I'm a brown guy and I'm reasonably well spoken at times.
And that's a really difficult thing to process because I need
(08:29):
to have a conversation with everyone, get through that
initial awkward and uncomfortable conversation while
they ask me probing questions about where are you from, What
kind of work do you do? Why do you speak that way?
Why are you with this very whitegirl?
Why are you speaking in this language?
(08:51):
Why do you live this way, which is very akin to generic expat
life, Before they realize that they might want to put me in the
expat bucket. And Euless, how do people view
you? Yeah, I would say people
definitely view me as an expat. I think that I've actually never
been called an immigrant. I can't remember anyone ever
(09:12):
saying that to me, even though Ihave lived in so many different
places. And I I specifically remember I
dated an Australian guy before Imet Ryan and I met his father in
Australia. And he started talking to me
about immigrants in Australia and how terrible it was and.
How they were. Coming to this country and
(09:34):
taking all the Australians jobs and they need to stop this and
they need to do something about it.
And I said, you know, I'm an immigrant, that I've come to
this country and taken an Australian job, right?
And he was like, no, no, not you.
Like you don't fit that. You're not who I'm talking about
at all of. Course.
Not, and. I think it's just such a clear
example of how people view to race in terms of being an
(09:59):
immigrant or not. Because for him, I'm white, so
of course I'm not one of those bad immigrants who's coming and
taking jobs, but I was doing exactly what he was complaining
about. Yeah, it's very contradictory in
terms of how people apply these rules.
And one of the other ways that Isee it come out in a very
uncomfortable way is in conversations with people who
(10:22):
are wholeheartedly self embracing of the expat label.
So wealthy people from westernized countries who have
moved to another place. And when you talk to them about
immigration and the movement of people, political issues,
economic issues that are as a result of this kind of
globalization, they tend to talkabout themselves in such a stark
(10:47):
contrast to the people who are brown and who are from the
Indian subcontinent and from theFar East and from other
countries which are generally viewed as being third world.
And it's weird to me to think that we are all in the same boat
as people who aren't necessarilyfrom where we're living right
(11:08):
now, and we're all part of the same legal framework for being
here, and we're all part of the same society and community.
We literally live next door to each other.
But I carry this particular label while you carry a
different one. And it's uncomfortable sometimes
because the way that some experts talk about people from
poorer countries who have made the same move as them ends up
(11:32):
being kind of like, discriminatory in the way that
it sounds. Definitely discriminatory.
And I kind of feel as though I identify a lot with the poorer
people who have moved across andI find it difficult to feel safe
in that relationship with those fellow expats, which is an
(11:53):
ironic situation to be in. Yeah, for sure.
It's tricky. And that's the thing, like the
more we talk about it, the more complex I feel like it gets
because there's no easy answer to this.
Yeah, because, I mean, at the end of the day, there's better
treatment for some people and worse treatment for others.
And if I benefit from the bettertreatment, primarily because I'm
(12:15):
with Liz, I tend to feel rather guilty.
And I find it very uncomfortablewhen I have to interact with
other people who are pretty muchexactly the same as me, knowing
that I'm getting better treatment.
I really feel that that's unfair.
And I think that a lot of it flows and stems from this
designation that's being handed out Willy nilly to people on a
(12:37):
random basis. And we can definitely see that
difference on a regular basis basis when Ryan goes to do some
kind of bureaucratical task for the Portuguese government and he
walks up and his number is called and he goes there on his
own. There's definitely one level of
treatment that he gets. And then when I come and I stand
next to him and I put my arm around him and it I make it
(13:01):
clear that we're together, the treatment changes.
It's not. It doesn't go from terrible to
good, but it definitely gets better.
You can achieve great things with white girl privilege, even
if it's by association. And I have truly benefited from
it and I don't know how I feel about it.
Yeah, it's, it's complicated. It's complicated.
(13:23):
So that's the first one race. So the second way that people
are separating expat from immigrant is this word
permanent. So just like the Oxford
Dictionary is saying that an expat is maybe a couple of
months, maybe a couple of years,maybe who knows how long.
There's no mention of time whatsoever.
An immigrant is forever and permanent.
(13:44):
It's such an interesting word here because are we really
moving to a country for the veryfirst time and deciding that we
are definitely going to be staying forever?
Forever is a long time and it's dependent on so many different
things. Do you really get to choose
that? Because life changes really
quickly and sometimes even the place that you've moved to might
(14:06):
change really quickly. Maybe at some point in time it
isn't a great place to live and you might need to leave.
What does that do to your specific social standing and the
classification that you carry? And for people like us, are we
planning to live in Portugal permanently?
No. But do we have any plan to leave
right now? No.
(14:27):
So what does that mean? Are we expats?
Are we immigrants? Are we here permanently?
Are we not? I, I can't get behind that word
forever. And I can't get behind that word
permanent for anywhere that I'veever lived.
I think it's such a difficult question to answer because we
often ask our expat and immigrant friends whether or not
(14:49):
they plan on leaving this country at any point in time.
And everyone generally gives thesame answer of, well, things are
good here right now and maybe we'll leave, maybe we'll go,
maybe something else will come up, which is a completely
reasonable answer. But I feel that if the status is
based on what could happen in the future, it's kind of silly
(15:11):
for us to give them a label right now.
I would agree and like you said,there's so many things that come
up like someone in your family could get sick, you might have
to go take care of them. Some rules could change.
You might actually not be able to stay anymore.
Depending on the visa rules, there might be any.
Host. Of things that change in the
country that you're from or in the country that you're in,
(15:33):
which would make your plans change?
Yeah. I think the other thing though,
that's tied up to this level of permanence is your association
to economic security. Economic security and the
privilege it provides gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of
where you choose to stay and howlong you choose to stay there.
(15:55):
A lot of people who are moving into new countries, I'm hesitant
to use expect or immigrant because I don't know who I'm
referring to specifically, But people who move into new
countries are often people who are looking for better work
opportunities and business opportunities and career
advancement or investment opportunities on a smaller
(16:15):
scale. And what tends to happen is that
you need to decide based on whether or not you're able to
pay your bills, whether or not you're able to make a life
there. So it isn't necessarily a case
of choosing to be any specific place based on anything other
sometimes than whether or not you can make it work.
We've had so many friends who have come here, wonderful
(16:36):
people. We've developed great
relationships with them while they've tried to start a life
here in Portugal to get going and, you know, find some level
of routine and some level of financial security.
And it just hasn't worked. And they've needed to basically
pack up everything and either move back to their home country
or find a third place to move towhere prospects could be better.
(16:59):
And that, for me, really does speak a lot to whether or not
someone can make a call of permanence in their own story.
Yeah, it's true. The third one, where I think
people are separating the difference between expat and
immigrant, is the country that you happen to be in.
I feel like this is a subcategory of racism, but it's
more based on the place that youcurrently are instead of the
(17:22):
place that you're from. So in a country like Kenya or
India, most of the people who move there would be considered
expats no matter where they're from.
And Ryan would be considered an expat in Kenya, being from South
African, even though he's brown,even though he's African, the
label of expat would be used in Kenya for him.
(17:44):
But in a country like the USA orAustralia, most people would be
called immigrants. So even Australians in the USA,
even British people who come to the USA would be often called
immigrants. But there we go again is that
there is this social stratification even before we
(18:05):
start applying the labels, because automatically Liz, being
a white American woman, is able to guarantee herself the
categorization of being an expatwherever she goes.
That isn't America. Whereas for me, it is dependent
of where it is that I'm being called out on.
And that's really difficult to accept because it means that I
(18:27):
need to prepare myself for different, different levels of
treatment from different people who are part of society.
What kind of bureaucracy am I going to need to deal with?
How much more difficult is it going to be for me to achieve
certain things? I often wonder what my life
would be like if it wasn't for Liz's white girl privilege,
(18:49):
which has helped me so much. Because I know that there are so
many things that I wouldn't be able to do when I go to a
country where I'm considered an immigrant.
And needing to fight that much harder to get taken seriously or
to be helped or to be consideredfor things that aren't
necessarily given to people who look like me and come from a
(19:12):
place where I'm from. And so that's a massive point
because as Liz is saying, when you go to America, I get very
nervous. I'm very nervous when I go to
America because the way that things could go down for me is
very different because I am a very strong immigrant in that
(19:33):
country, as opposed to when we go to Kenya.
I feel so much more comfortable because I know that I'm being
considered an expat and therefore I'm not afraid of the
police there. I'm not afraid of asking public
servants to help me or general society to assist me in any way
or to connect with anyone because that door is open.
(19:55):
And that's a really strange feeling to have because it can
change on either end of one plane trip for me.
Yeah. It's really, it's really quite
heavy to deal with. And let me ask you, Liz, when
you go to a country that maybe has a bigger space between
(20:16):
immigrant and expat, so let's call it, the aura around being
an expat is much higher. So let's talk about an American
in a deep, dark place in Africa.How do you negotiate that?
How do you feel about that? What is life like between those
experiences as opposed to, let'ssay, Portugal, where you're
closer to this community than you would be in Africa?
(20:40):
Yeah, I think there's this levelof guilt that you feel for
getting better treatment. There's this level of
discomfort. That you feel when people are
opening doors for you or going out of their way to help you
with something and the oh, hello, ma'am.
(21:01):
Kind of. Language.
I think that it, it can be very uncomfortable to be put in that
position where you feel as though the reason that people
are treating you that way is because people who look like you
who have been there in the past have demanded that treatment.
And I think for me, whenever I'min a place where people see that
(21:26):
I'm a white American and they goout of their way to do
everything for me, all I can think is how terrible they must
have been treated in the past bypeople who look like me.
And, and I think there's a lot of guilt that's associated with
that. And I feel like it's my job.
To be as nice as possible to everyone that I meet in that
(21:50):
country, to show that I don't think I'm better than they are.
It's really interesting because I've seen Liz do this, you know,
she's she's friendly and kind toeveryone everywhere that we go.
So her treatment of people isn'tdependent on where we are
geographically. And that's really cool and I
really appreciate that. But one of the things that
(22:11):
really blows my mind every time when I watch this happen in the
different places that we are is the way that people are
conditioned to deal with you. Because, as you say, they've had
experiences before of dealing with people like you.
And so they've got an expectation of how they're
supposed to treat you without ever having met you.
(22:32):
They don't know whether or not you're a nice person.
They don't know whether or not you deserve to be treated like
royalty. But The thing is that there has
has been an establishment of thestatus of this person that
they're speaking to before you even showed up.
And therefore you deserve a specific kind of treatment.
(22:53):
And I wonder what that must feellike being someone who knows
that, hey, you know what, this person is from America, from the
UK, from Australia. So they need to be treated a
certain way and then looking at someone else who might be from
their own neighborhood, their literal neighbors, friends and
(23:14):
family and looking at them and saying I need to treat them less
than that person who's from those countries.
That's crazy. It's crazy.
It's actually crazy. Now, it really is a fascinating
thing, and I think when we look at these kinds of examples, it
really makes me think about how much of an impact this has got
on the way society is running, especially now where
(23:37):
globalization is so much more extreme than it's ever been
before. So the 4th and final way that
we've seen people distinguish the difference between ex patent
immigrant is choice. So when we posted this on our
Instagram, one of our followers,Kieron Panino Conchis, pointed
out that her distinction betweenex patent immigrant is who
(23:59):
decided that you would go to that country?
And was it a company who told you this is where you're
relocating? Or was it your own decision to
go or your own decision to stay?And this is a really interesting
distinction, I think, and one that we really hadn't thought
about before. And I think this is also quite
country dependent too, because Iknow that in the US, you're not
(24:21):
considered an expat even if yourcompany told you to be there.
You're definitely still considered an immigrant
depending on where you're from, depending on your country,
depending on so many things. And yeah, I feel like this idea
of choice. Is really it's kind of putting
the power back in your hands of I chose to be here.
(24:43):
So I am, I am an immigrant versus we're here for this
contract, we're here for this job.
So I am an expat because this isquite temporary.
And if this job goes away, then I go away.
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm pulling things
apart here, but even inside thatconsideration, a big part of it
(25:04):
is understanding what it is that's motivating people to make
that choice. So an example of people who are
in dire straits economically in a ex third world country needing
to find a way to feed their family and move forward, jumping
on an airplane and starting a new life in a new place.
(25:25):
How much of A choice was that? Because if you were to put
yourself in those shoes, understanding that you are on
the verge of catastrophe or living in extreme poverty with
there being no other way out other than to leave that
situation and try in a new placethat has more economic power.
(25:46):
I do question whether or not that's a choice.
Because what else are you going to do?
Stay in the same place and struggle for how long?
Watch your family disintegrate and struggle into future
generations? What are you going to do?
Again, that's the question. I, I don't really have any
answer for it. But what I'm saying is that if
(26:07):
you choose to jump on an airplane and start a new life
somewhere, or cross a border andstart a new life somewhere, I
don't automatically assume that the choice is full of
fulfillment and ambition and positivity for some new life
that's full of sunshine and love.
(26:27):
Sometimes it's a case of I'm doing this because I need to
survive and being able to appreciate people who are in
that stream of life is an important thing.
And I don't think that we're doing it if we feel as though we
need to be discriminatory because they carry the label of
(26:49):
immigrant, because it was a choice.
All right, Ryan, I have a big question.
That was a bit heavy for you. No.
It was good, it was good. I just, I do have a bigger
question though from a psychology point of view.
As a therapist for expats specifically, what happens to
(27:10):
someone when they are treated asless than by the people that are
around them? Yeah, it is a very complicated
thing psychologically and I don't know if anything applies
to anyone completely. I don't know if there's a
template response and feeling that people go through, but I do
(27:32):
know that it really does requesta great deal of consideration
from the people who are in thesesituations because they're
needing to consider their own identities.
They're needing to consider how they fit in with the rest of the
society that they're living in. They're needing to ask questions
about what their value is and who they are and how they fit in
(27:57):
and how they're going to make itwork.
And it becomes very difficult because sometimes if you're up
against it on a community level,you can end up becoming very
angry. I've been there before of
needing to look at someone else in the eye and make a case for
yourself to explain that no, I am educated.
(28:19):
No, I am hard working and needing to actually work hard to
convince them of that so that I can have the same opportunities
that other people can have. And I really have a soft spot in
my heart for so many people who are moving from inverted commas
poor countries to rich countries.
(28:40):
And really, people busting theirbats to contribute economically
and socially and working hard toput their kids through school
and to build a new life and still needing to deal with
discrimination and just general negative perspectives and
(29:01):
perceptions. And that's really hard to see
because I, like I said, I mean, maybe I'm biased because I'm
part of that treatment, but it is difficult.
And I just want people to know that the main thing that you can
do is actually engage in discourse and discussion and to
talk about it because it is something that affects us all.
(29:22):
And it's something that shapes so much of how the world sees
this issue. Because if you keep quiet about
it, that anger inside as a person can grow and turn into
something different. The way that people are treating
each other just in general ends up taking a lot more of a
(29:42):
negative tinge on an international relations basis.
And if you start to consider what it is that we can do to
improve the situation of making sure that everyone is treated
with kindness and respect, talking about it as the first
place to start. So that's my thinking as a
psychologist, having that conversation, getting into the
(30:05):
topic, talking about how you feel and the fact that we're
fighting for equality rather than anything else.
I think it's an important way oflooking at it.
Yeah, I, I agree. I think you're never alone and
whatever you're going through. Someone else has probably gone
through it and to know that. They've also gone through it
(30:27):
just makes you feel less alone and to be able to share some of
these frustrations, to share some of these pent up feelings
that you have inside, whether it's to a friend, to a
therapist, to whoever, just getting them out often makes
them feel less heavy. Absolutely, because these are
heavy feelings and it's not a weird thing to feel what it is
(30:52):
that you're feeling because a lot of people have this topic in
their minds and have considered it, but the conversations are
not happening around it and that's the first place to start.
So, yeah, I think the biggest way that we're really seeing
this is that immigrants are poorand struggling and not as good
(31:13):
as the people who live in this country.
Expats are rich and powerful anddeserving of a red carpet being
rolled out for them. And I think that people who come
here with those labels are oftenthinking that.
So do you feel as though people in your new country should speak
your language? Should they cater to your every
whim? Should they be really grateful
(31:34):
that you're there? Or do you feel like you need to
make yourself smaller and quieter in your new country?
That you can't rock the boat, That you need to make sure that
people in this country know justhow grateful you are to be
there? And I think a bigger question is
how would it feel to be somewhere in the middle, to take
up the space of a person becauseyou're a person, To not expect
(31:57):
people to treat you any better or to treat you any worse than
they would treat anyone else. And to embrace some of the
customs in your new place and also bring some of the
traditions that you love from back home.
I feel like ex pet versus immigrant.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing and it doesn't have to
be verses. We're all in this together.
(32:20):
I wish we would act like it. Absolutely.
I think adding to a society is an important way of
understanding what other people are bringing.
Because there seems to be this level of insecurity around new
cultures being added to a particular culture.
And people get so insecure aboutit that they don't realize that
(32:42):
things become better for them, being able to experience
something bigger and greater. If there's a reduction of
cultural aspects of the originalsociety, that's not a question
around the people who are entering that society.
It's a question of the people who are already there.
And being able to say, hey, we're all in this together.
(33:03):
We're all wanting to live a lifethat's fuller and more colorful
and more positive. That's there.
And it's for the taking. And having this conversation and
trying to figure out how we should treat each other in a way
that makes us all feel valued isalways going to be #1 And that
brings me to another question, Liz.
(33:25):
Why do we use the word expats inour Expats Listen podcast?
Why did we choose that name? Yeah.
So I'm going to be very honest with you guys in my digital
marketing career. I think that we identify as both
and I think we identify as expats.
We identify as immigrants and choosing a name for this
podcast, the most important thing for me was to use the word
(33:47):
that you are using. And most people that we know who
are foreigners, who are living here, most of the people I knew
when I was a foreigner living inAustralia, most of the people
that I knew when I was living inKenya and South Africa and all
different places identified as expats are searching for the
word expat. And I wanted to make our podcast
(34:10):
easy to find. I think really this isn't a
podcast just for expats. This is a podcast for anyone who
is living in another country or thinking about making the move
to another country. And.
Yeah, we chose Expats listen strictly to make it easier for
you guys to find us. Absolutely.
This is a podcast made by peoplewho are expats and immigrants.
(34:34):
Sometimes we might feel like expats in the morning and
immigrants in the evening. And this is for everyone.
And we really aren't the kind ofpeople who are handing out the
expat and immigrant labels very easily or very quickly.
And I've kind of feel as though from my side, I'm happy to be an
immigrant and I'm happy to call everyone an immigrant.
(34:57):
And if that doesn't make people happy, that I'm happy to be an
expat and then to call everyone an expat because we're all one
and the same. Next, Liz, what do we got coming
up? All right.
So our next segment on the podcast is Would You Rather?
So in this segment, we've got a series of questions and we will
(35:19):
ask would you rather A or B where A&B are going to be
countries. So we'll be choosing countries
that either one or both of us has been to.
And we're going to do the same questions for this round of
episodes and we'll get your input and figure out what you
guys like hearing about and whatquestions you want asked.
(35:39):
And then that might be for the next round.
But for this round, we've got our questions and I have got our
countries, Ryan. So for this week's Would you
Rather we are going to choose between France and New Zealand?
Oh, this is going to be tough. Those are two great Dragney many
nations and I have an affinity towards France because of the
(36:00):
deliciousness of their food, so really keen to get into this.
Well, the first one starts with food.
So Ryan, would you rather eat a pizza in France or in New
Zealand? Am I correct in saying that
France shares a border with Italy?
You are correct. I would assume that they've been
one or two people from Italy whohave defected to France and are
(36:22):
cranking out amazing pizza. So I'm going to go France with
my pizza you. I have to agree, I think France
for the pizza makes sense. I think we're going to get the
French just do food so well. I feel like if it was any food
the French would do it well and I'll be happy to eat the French
version of of anything. Absolutely.
I think that France, I, I want people in France to know that I
(36:46):
feel as though they have some ofthe best food on the planet.
The way that they eat out there is really something special and
it's one of my favorite things about that place.
Completely. All right.
Next up, would you rather go fora hike in France or in New
Zealand? Oh, that's a really good
question, because I know that there are some really good hikes
(37:08):
in France, which we've actually done.
But I know that they made Lord of the Rings in New Zealand, and
I would absolutely do one of thetrails that one of the hobbits
might have completed in that's in that movie franchise.
(37:28):
And I don't know if there's a real Mordor, but I would like to
go there. So I'd choose New Zealand and
you. I'm agreeing with you too much,
but yes, I'm also going New Zealand for this one.
I think diversity of landscapes,stunning landscapes.
Not to say anything against France.
There's mountains, there's oceanviews, there's lots of
gorgeousness in France to hike, but I'm going to go to New
(37:50):
Zealand. On this one.
Good call. OK, Would you rather see the
wildlife in France or New Zealand?
What stands out to you? I want to take a moment here
because I need to admit something to you and to our
listeners. In this podcast, I tend to make
this statement that there isn't any good wildlife in Europe.
(38:13):
And it's such a arrogant and ignorant thing to say because in
this past week we went on a little boat trip on some
wetlands just a couple of minutes away from our house.
And while we were on that trip, we saw huge swarms of birds,
(38:35):
flamingos, eagles, some of the most Beautiful Creatures I've
ever seen. They were fish jumping out of
the water, glistening in the afternoon sun.
It was absolutely gorgeous. And when I looked at that, I
realized that I was not giving Europe the credit it deserves
(38:57):
for being biodiverse. I think it's tough because you
are from Africa and you're used to things like elephants and
giraffes, and then you come to Europe and you're not seeing
things like elephants and giraffes or lions and all of
this. So I understand why you have
dissed the European wild left inthe past, but I think it's nice
(39:18):
that you appreciate it more now.So that said, are you choosing
France or are you choosing New Zealand?
That is still a good question. I'm kind of thinking let me go
for New Zealand because I know that they've got a lot of marine
life, which is really interesting.
I don't know too much about the mammals and the rest of it, but
(39:40):
I'd give it a go. I maybe I'd be keen to discover
what New Zealand's got you. Nice.
I think I've gone well watching in New Zealand before and it was
pretty incredible. And I think if you're there
during a migration season, it's absolutely stunning.
Also, this is going to sound weird, but the glow worms in New
(40:02):
Zealand were some of my favoritewildlife that I've ever seen.
There are these caves that you go into and they call it
Blackwater rafting because it's like rafting in a cave and The
Cave is completely lit by glow worms and it was really
incredible. All right.
Next up, would you rather ask for directions in France or in
(40:22):
New Zealand? How's your French, Ryan?
I really like New Zealand people, people from New Zealand.
They've got this specific kind of humor which really resonates
with me. And it's, I don't know, I don't
want to say that it's the same as South African humor.
But it's similar. But it is similar.
(40:43):
They enjoy a joke, they enjoy the humorous part of life, and
people are positive there in a way that is able to turn dark
and sad stuff into something possible and almost kind of
enjoyable at times. So I'm always actually keen to
have a conversation with a New Zealander because I tend to find
(41:06):
it easy to talk to them. And yeah, I would say New
Zealander. I would ask for directions and
then become friends with someone.
Yeah, I think it also really helps that Ryan is quite muscly
and broad shouldered and looks very much like a rugby player.
So whenever he meets people fromrugby nations, I think it's very
easy for them to be like, oh, doyou play rugby?
(41:27):
Let's talk about that. Also, I will say this, it's
important that people in New Zealand don't think that I'm
being too kind because South Africa has never lost to New
Zealand in a Rugby World Cup final.
So I don't want to be that tightwith you because I am better
than you because I am South African.
So just always remember that please.
Wow, those are fighting words. But please still give me
(41:48):
directions to where it is that I'm going.
I, I I'm lost without you. All right, I think this is an
obvious answer for you, but would you rather eat street food
in France or New Zealand? I'd eat any food in France.
You. Yeah, I mean, I think gas
station food in France has been mind blowingly amazing for us,
(42:09):
so I can't imagine going wrong with food in France.
This is an interesting one. Would you rather live for three
months in France or in New Zealand?
I think I would go three months in New Zealand because it's so
far away and if I'm going to go there, I don't want to go there
for a short period of time. I want to spend enough time
there to have a real look around, get some real experience
(42:33):
with the people. They understand how people live
there, see maybe lesser known sites in terms of the nature and
the tourism, things that you cando there.
So I reckon 3 months in New Zealand exploring both islands
would be, I think, time well spent.
I think France is also quite diverse, so it's not a an easy
(42:56):
choice. But yeah, I would go to New
Zealand. I think there's a lot to see and
do there. I like the solitude of the
place. It looks like you can find space
to be alone there and I quite enjoy that.
Where would you choose to do three months?
I think I do. Three months in France, because
I think that living day-to-day French life.
(43:16):
Would be really amazing and to just like pick a little small
town and get your local bakery and your local coffee shop and
figure out my local hikes that Iwant to take and actually having
like a normal. Life.
For three months in France wouldbe a really beautiful
(43:37):
experience. How would you negotiate the
language? I think I would just speak
Spanish to them the way that I do now and not get by very well.
But I I have found that people in general are are quite nice
and I think I can I think I can manage sure a lot of Google
Translate. Three months in France without
the language. I think I I am interested to
(43:59):
hear how that goes for you maybe.
I'll pick some of it up. That would be cool, I think.
I think that on the topic of language, I'm sure we'll cover
this in greater depth at some point.
One of the things that I appreciate so much is when you
make any kind of sincere effort to speak the language of the
place that you're visiting. I'm always so grateful for the
(44:20):
response that people give in those countries because you get
so much positivity from the goodwill of trying to speak that
language that you end up actually making friends.
You end up becoming part of thatgroup of people.
You are able to help other people and be helped.
It's a really cool thing. So maybe your time in France
would be really good for your for your connections with people
(44:43):
there. And I always do that.
I know like 10 to 20 words in like 20 different languages
because I always try to to make that effort and a little bit
goes a long way like you said. I agree.
All right, Next up, would you rather visit for a long weekend
in France or New Zealand? I would do a long weekend in
(45:03):
France quite happily. And I think that I would
probably target specific provinces of France to say this
long weekend I'm going to explore this particular area
because I know that they've got some incredible history there.
It's a really historically significant place and they've
done a really good job of documenting a lot of that
(45:25):
history and showcasing it. And I think a long weekend there
of eating Creme brulee, baguette, some good cheese and
just going through the lands I think would be really fun.
I think, you know, you've got the Pyrenees, you've got amazing
beaches down in the South, you've got a lot to see and do
(45:45):
and you can choose what you wantfor that.
For that four day experience, what would you choose?
Yeah, I'm also going France. I feel like A1 region, like 1
area is, is all you can do in a long weekend and I feel like
there's so many choices. So three months and a long
weekend. Yeah, let's do it.
You want to move to France, OK. All right, OK, all right, Next
(46:06):
up, would you rather do a road trip in France or New Zealand
and I'll go 1st. I'm going New Zealand here.
So even though I'm living for for a while in France, I'm I'm
doing the New Zealand road trip.I have done Rd. trips in France.
I have done Rd. trips in New Zealand and there's just
something that it's different about a New Zealand road trip.
(46:28):
I feel like cheap traffic is more common than car traffic in
New Zealand, and some of the places that you go are so wild
and unexplored feeling and just beautiful and incredible and you
can just pull over onto the sideof the road and explore.
(46:51):
And I really love that in a roadtrip in New Zealand.
That's super cool. I would agree with you.
I think I've also done the road trip in France with you and it
was really amazing and incredible experience.
But I think that that mystery and the freedom that New Zealand
offers off going into a very remote area surrounded by
(47:13):
incredible nature and the ruralness of the whole thing
really does have a specific charm to it.
So I would definitely do a road trip in New Zealand as well.
All right, Next up, I would be shocked if you don't choose the
same as me, but would you ratherlearn the language in France or
(47:33):
New Zealand? So in New Zealand, what language
you would you be learning? There I think.
It would either be English with a New Zealand accent or Maori.
I really, I really have such a love for Maori culture, all of
the Pacific islands in fact, because every person that I've
(47:54):
ever met from that part of the world, they've always been
incredible human beings, some ofthe nicest people that I've ever
met and just quality, quality individuals.
I love the culture, I love the values that those people have
got. And you know, in a, in a silly
way, I don't know if anyone elsehas ever asked themselves this
(48:15):
question of if you were to be a different race or culture, what
would you be? Maori is up there for me, like 1
of the ones that, you know, if there was a giant cosmic shake
up and I needed to wake up tomorrow in a different body and
place, if I was a New Zealander,I really would be quite happy.
(48:38):
But having said that though, if you learn French, you're able to
operate in massive, massive geographic locations across this
whole planet. You can communicate with
millions upon millions of peopleeverywhere.
So it's not even a, it's not even a question of what do I
(48:59):
like more or what do I like less.
It's just a the practicality thing.
So. So French has to be A to you.
That's what I was thinking. I mean, I feel like being able
to snap my fingers and and speakFrench would open up so many
doors. And it is true that Maori people
are amazing. Maori culture is fascinating and
rich and there aren't a lot of Maori speakers.
(49:20):
And it would be cool, but I'm choosing, I'm choosing French.
OK, last one. Are you ready?
Would you rather buy a house in France or in New Zealand?
That's a really good question. I think that realistically
speaking right now, I happen to know that New Zealand is going
(49:40):
through a lot in the economy where there's actually a lot of
struggle with the amount of manypeople are needing to pay for
basic goods and certainly the price of houses.
So I don't know if it would makesense to buy a house out there
because of the price we would need to pay as well as the fact
(50:01):
that we could only visit very seldomly because it's so far
away. I think that there is an
attraction to New Zealand because I think it's such a
beautiful place. But I would say France because
there are certain places in France where you can surf really
nicely. There's certain places in France
that have incredible weather. There's certain places in France
(50:23):
that give you your own space andtime, so I would say France just
because it's easier, not becauseI like it anymore or any less
than New Zealand you. It's interesting that you're
using the word easier, because Ifeel like buying a house in New
Zealand would actually be easier.
What makes it easier? It's all in English and even
(50:45):
though their their houses are more expensive, the New Zealand
dollar is worth a lot less so I think a house in New Zealand and
a house in France would. Actually be quite similarly
priced. So I do think it would be easier
in New Zealand, but the getting there would be the hard part.
I feel like you would need to spend a lot of time going back
(51:07):
and forth. We have a Henry, our wonderful
dog, who couldn't come with us back and forth.
So I guess in that sense it is alot easier to go with France.
And yeah, I think both would be the buying would be easier in
New Zealand, but the owning would be easier in France.
(51:28):
And you'd be living in a countrythat doesn't historically win as
many World Cups as South Africa.And I don't know whether or not
that's the way you want to live.Well, wouldn't it be either
country because both France and New Zealand historically just
can't win as many World Cups as South Africa.
We. Don't even talk about France and
World Cups. It's not even a conversation.
New Zealand is hot on our trails, but still trailing for
(51:49):
sure. But well, if you want to, if you
want to live in France, then I think that's a good call.
You know, then maybe that's the place to be.
You want to spend your three months and your long weekends
there. I think that might be the place
to be here. And thank you so much, everyone,
for listening to Expats listen this week.
(52:12):
It's been so good to share this with you.
I know a very polarizing topic and a lot to think about, I
think for all of us. And I'm sure that this is going
to raise up quite a few questions and thoughts and
feelings from everyone who's listened because everyone's got
a different perspective on this matter.
And we would love to hear what you think and what you feel and
(52:33):
what your take is on the expat versus immigrant conversation.
And if you've got anything that you do want to share with us, we
would love to hear it. We can talk about it in another
show and you can reach out to uson Expats Listen on Instagram or
you can e-mail us on expatslisten@gmail.com that is
(52:54):
EX patslisten@gmail.com or on Instagram.
We'd love to hear from you and until we speak again, have a
good week. Bye bye.
Welcome to Expats Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz, how was your week? I had a very busy week, Liz.
I've got a lot of contacts and connections in South Africa who
I just haven't been keeping up to date with.
(00:22):
And I actually got back into it this week and I realized how
much of a difference it makes tobe able to speak to those
people. And just a shout out to my
wonderful friends in South Africa.
I've missed you. I'm sorry I've been so scarce,
but it's really good to be talking to you guys again.
And you, Liz? Yeah, I have had a busy week.
(00:44):
It has been a hot week. It's always difficult with Mr.
Henry, especially because he loves to walk and he loves to go
on very long walks, but he does not enjoy.
Heat Do you want to share with him his new method of
controlling the amount of walking he does in the heat?
(01:05):
This dog is so manipulative because he is so smart.
So a few weeks ago he hurt his paw.
He must have stepped on something or something got stuck
between his toes and he picked up his little paw and he started
hopping a bit. So I had to pick him up and
carry him home. We live on the European 4th
(01:26):
floor, which is the American 5thfloor with no elevator.
So I had to carry him up all of the stairs and he took a couple
of days to get better, but then he was fully healed.
Then I took him out this week and we went to this park where
it's quite safe and like fully fenced in and lots of dogs can
run without their leash and it'sbig enough for humans to run as
(01:50):
well. Like it's a nice big loop.
And I started to run, and Mr. Henry decided he did not want to
run in that heat, so he picked his little paw up and started
hopping. And I ran over to him, checked
his paw. What's wrong?
Oh no. And there was nothing wrong with
his paw. As soon as I came back over to
him, he put it down and he walked normally.
I was like, okay, that's weird, maybe something was stuck in it
(02:12):
and it's gone now. And then I started running again
and he picked his paw up again because there was nothing in his
paw. He just knew that if he was
hopping with one paw in the air,I would not run away from him
and I would walk slowly the way he wanted to walk on his walk in
the heat. And that is our super evil
(02:34):
genius dog who has learnt his new trick.
Hell of a week for him too. Well, what are we talking about
this week, Ryan? Today is a big topic.
Today we're talking about the expat versus immigrant debate.
What is an expat, What is an immigrant?
And what do those things mean between each other?
Yeah. I think they're both such loaded
(02:56):
words these days that they bringsuch different pictures to mind.
And I think that there's a lot of people who are using one word
or another as a way to put people down and as a way to put
other people into a class that'sthan whatever they view
themselves as. Yeah, because I think it's such
(03:18):
a loaded topic that everyone hastheir own definition of it and
their own understanding of what it means and who it applies to
and what kind of repercussions and implications they carry.
And I think that that's really what it is that shapes the world
that we're living in. And so many people really get
treated differently because of it.
(03:39):
And I find it to be difficult. And I don't know if we're going
to be able to find any kind of final answer on how to process
this whole matter. But I do think that it's a
discussion that needs to be had,at the very least with yourself
to understand where you fit in on this big debate.
Yes, I guess a a great place forus to start maybe is dictionary
(04:01):
definitions, right. So let's try with the Oxford
Dictionary definition, which says that an expat is a person
who lives outside of their native country and an immigrant
is a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign
country. So the only real difference
between the Oxford Dictionary definitions is that word
(04:22):
permanent. Permanent.
What does that mean? How long is permanent?
Is it forever? I guess right?
But who knows what forever is? And are people really deciding
on forever? Because things change, and
whoever it is that's going to measure this at the end of
forever is the only person who'sgoing to be able to say yes,
(04:44):
indeed, that person came to livehere forever.
So I don't know whether or not that Oxford Dictionary
definition is that helpful, if I'm honest, because it also
occurs to me that it says for anexpat being a person who lives
outside their native country andan immigrant, a person who comes
to live permanently in a foreigncountry is really dependent on
(05:06):
who's making that call. Is it me?
Is it them? And then I get to choose,
because that definition applies to pretty much anyone who's not
living in their home country. Yeah.
So the way we see it, I think there's really four different
ways that people distinguish between expats and immigrants.
The first is what I think is themost common and what we
(05:29):
experience the most on a day-to-day basis, which is race
and class. So Liz, that's me.
I am white, I am American. I have a Navy blue passport.
So I'm an expat. And I'm brown, I'm from Africa,
and I have a green passport. And what that means in a global
(05:51):
sense is that I'm an immigrant. And if the color of my skin
doesn't give it away immediately, the color of my
passport will because I'm carrying a large number of
markers of people who are traditionally considered as
being immigrants, which is kind of heavy.
To know that I've got that designation and classification
(06:12):
without even opening up my mouthand saying anything about
myself. Very strange.
And I think it becomes even moreinteresting when you put us
together because it seems reallyclear for people that I am the
ex pet and Ryan is the immigrant.
But then when they find out thatwe're married, we don't nicely
fit into a box anymore. And are we a couple that are ex
(06:36):
pet immigrants? Are we ex pets?
Are we immigrants? Can we be one of those things
when one of us is white and American and the other is brown
and African? Or who are we now?
It's a very complicated thing, even between us.
Because I feel as though even I look at Liz as being an expat
and I look at myself as being animmigrant because I myself have
(06:59):
given this designation to myself.
Because I feel as though I identify more with the people
who are coming here with a lowerclass and a lower social status.
And that's a bit difficult sometimes.
Because when we present ourselves to society, we aren't
on the same page of how we expect other people to view us.
(07:22):
So when we go places, I often find myself needing to interact
with people in a very cagey way while they figure out which box
I should be put in. The same way that Liz is
explaining how tricky it can be to judge us.
Because an example is there are stereotypes around people who
(07:42):
look like me. And the question here in
Portugal would be, well, are youan Uber driver?
Are you an Uber Eats driver? What kind of restaurant do you
work in as a cook in the back? And those are the immediate
expectations. And when we go to maybe more
westernized countries where there's been maybe many years
(08:06):
worth of brown people immigrating, one of the
assumptions there, so let's say in America or in the UK or in
Australia, the expectation thereis that we are some kind of IT
couple because the assumption isthat I could only work in IT
because I'm a brown guy and I'm reasonably well spoken at times.
And that's a really difficult thing to process because I need
(08:29):
to have a conversation with everyone, get through that
initial awkward and uncomfortable conversation while
they ask me probing questions about where are you from, What
kind of work do you do? Why do you speak that way?
Why are you with this very whitegirl?
Why are you speaking in this language?
(08:51):
Why do you live this way, which is very akin to generic expat
life, Before they realize that they might want to put me in the
expat bucket. And Euless, how do people view
you? Yeah, I would say people
definitely view me as an expat. I think that I've actually never
been called an immigrant. I can't remember anyone ever
(09:12):
saying that to me, even though Ihave lived in so many different
places. And I I specifically remember I
dated an Australian guy before Imet Ryan and I met his father in
Australia. And he started talking to me
about immigrants in Australia and how terrible it was and.
How they were. Coming to this country and
(09:34):
taking all the Australians jobs and they need to stop this and
they need to do something about it.
And I said, you know, I'm an immigrant, that I've come to
this country and taken an Australian job, right?
And he was like, no, no, not you.
Like you don't fit that. You're not who I'm talking about
at all of. Course.
Not, and. I think it's just such a clear
example of how people view to race in terms of being an
(09:59):
immigrant or not. Because for him, I'm white, so
of course I'm not one of those bad immigrants who's coming and
taking jobs, but I was doing exactly what he was complaining
about. Yeah, it's very contradictory in
terms of how people apply these rules.
And one of the other ways that Isee it come out in a very
uncomfortable way is in conversations with people who
(10:22):
are wholeheartedly self embracing of the expat label.
So wealthy people from westernized countries who have
moved to another place. And when you talk to them about
immigration and the movement of people, political issues,
economic issues that are as a result of this kind of
globalization, they tend to talkabout themselves in such a stark
(10:47):
contrast to the people who are brown and who are from the
Indian subcontinent and from theFar East and from other
countries which are generally viewed as being third world.
And it's weird to me to think that we are all in the same boat
as people who aren't necessarilyfrom where we're living right
(11:08):
now, and we're all part of the same legal framework for being
here, and we're all part of the same society and community.
We literally live next door to each other.
But I carry this particular label while you carry a
different one. And it's uncomfortable sometimes
because the way that some experts talk about people from
poorer countries who have made the same move as them ends up
(11:32):
being kind of like, discriminatory in the way that
it sounds. Definitely discriminatory.
And I kind of feel as though I identify a lot with the poorer
people who have moved across andI find it difficult to feel safe
in that relationship with those fellow expats, which is an
(11:53):
ironic situation to be in. Yeah, for sure.
It's tricky. And that's the thing, like the
more we talk about it, the more complex I feel like it gets
because there's no easy answer to this.
Yeah, because, I mean, at the end of the day, there's better
treatment for some people and worse treatment for others.
And if I benefit from the bettertreatment, primarily because I'm
(12:15):
with Liz, I tend to feel rather guilty.
And I find it very uncomfortablewhen I have to interact with
other people who are pretty muchexactly the same as me, knowing
that I'm getting better treatment.
I really feel that that's unfair.
And I think that a lot of it flows and stems from this
designation that's being handed out Willy nilly to people on a
(12:37):
random basis. And we can definitely see that
difference on a regular basis basis when Ryan goes to do some
kind of bureaucratical task for the Portuguese government and he
walks up and his number is called and he goes there on his
own. There's definitely one level of
treatment that he gets. And then when I come and I stand
next to him and I put my arm around him and it I make it
(13:01):
clear that we're together, the treatment changes.
It's not. It doesn't go from terrible to
good, but it definitely gets better.
You can achieve great things with white girl privilege, even
if it's by association. And I have truly benefited from
it and I don't know how I feel about it.
Yeah, it's, it's complicated. It's complicated.
(13:23):
So that's the first one race. So the second way that people
are separating expat from immigrant is this word
permanent. So just like the Oxford
Dictionary is saying that an expat is maybe a couple of
months, maybe a couple of years,maybe who knows how long.
There's no mention of time whatsoever.
An immigrant is forever and permanent.
(13:44):
It's such an interesting word here because are we really
moving to a country for the veryfirst time and deciding that we
are definitely going to be staying forever?
Forever is a long time and it's dependent on so many different
things. Do you really get to choose
that? Because life changes really
quickly and sometimes even the place that you've moved to might
(14:06):
change really quickly. Maybe at some point in time it
isn't a great place to live and you might need to leave.
What does that do to your specific social standing and the
classification that you carry? And for people like us, are we
planning to live in Portugal permanently?
No. But do we have any plan to leave
right now? No.
(14:27):
So what does that mean? Are we expats?
Are we immigrants? Are we here permanently?
Are we not? I, I can't get behind that word
forever. And I can't get behind that word
permanent for anywhere that I'veever lived.
I think it's such a difficult question to answer because we
often ask our expat and immigrant friends whether or not
(14:49):
they plan on leaving this country at any point in time.
And everyone generally gives thesame answer of, well, things are
good here right now and maybe we'll leave, maybe we'll go,
maybe something else will come up, which is a completely
reasonable answer. But I feel that if the status is
based on what could happen in the future, it's kind of silly
(15:11):
for us to give them a label right now.
I would agree and like you said,there's so many things that come
up like someone in your family could get sick, you might have
to go take care of them. Some rules could change.
You might actually not be able to stay anymore.
Depending on the visa rules, there might be any.
Host. Of things that change in the
country that you're from or in the country that you're in,
(15:33):
which would make your plans change?
Yeah. I think the other thing though,
that's tied up to this level of permanence is your association
to economic security. Economic security and the
privilege it provides gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of
where you choose to stay and howlong you choose to stay there.
(15:55):
A lot of people who are moving into new countries, I'm hesitant
to use expect or immigrant because I don't know who I'm
referring to specifically, But people who move into new
countries are often people who are looking for better work
opportunities and business opportunities and career
advancement or investment opportunities on a smaller
(16:15):
scale. And what tends to happen is that
you need to decide based on whether or not you're able to
pay your bills, whether or not you're able to make a life
there. So it isn't necessarily a case
of choosing to be any specific place based on anything other
sometimes than whether or not you can make it work.
We've had so many friends who have come here, wonderful
(16:36):
people. We've developed great
relationships with them while they've tried to start a life
here in Portugal to get going and, you know, find some level
of routine and some level of financial security.
And it just hasn't worked. And they've needed to basically
pack up everything and either move back to their home country
or find a third place to move towhere prospects could be better.
(16:59):
And that, for me, really does speak a lot to whether or not
someone can make a call of permanence in their own story.
Yeah, it's true. The third one, where I think
people are separating the difference between expat and
immigrant, is the country that you happen to be in.
I feel like this is a subcategory of racism, but it's
more based on the place that youcurrently are instead of the
(17:22):
place that you're from. So in a country like Kenya or
India, most of the people who move there would be considered
expats no matter where they're from.
And Ryan would be considered an expat in Kenya, being from South
African, even though he's brown,even though he's African, the
label of expat would be used in Kenya for him.
(17:44):
But in a country like the USA orAustralia, most people would be
called immigrants. So even Australians in the USA,
even British people who come to the USA would be often called
immigrants. But there we go again is that
there is this social stratification even before we
(18:05):
start applying the labels, because automatically Liz, being
a white American woman, is able to guarantee herself the
categorization of being an expatwherever she goes.
That isn't America. Whereas for me, it is dependent
of where it is that I'm being called out on.
And that's really difficult to accept because it means that I
(18:27):
need to prepare myself for different, different levels of
treatment from different people who are part of society.
What kind of bureaucracy am I going to need to deal with?
How much more difficult is it going to be for me to achieve
certain things? I often wonder what my life
would be like if it wasn't for Liz's white girl privilege,
(18:49):
which has helped me so much. Because I know that there are so
many things that I wouldn't be able to do when I go to a
country where I'm considered an immigrant.
And needing to fight that much harder to get taken seriously or
to be helped or to be consideredfor things that aren't
necessarily given to people who look like me and come from a
(19:12):
place where I'm from. And so that's a massive point
because as Liz is saying, when you go to America, I get very
nervous. I'm very nervous when I go to
America because the way that things could go down for me is
very different because I am a very strong immigrant in that
(19:33):
country, as opposed to when we go to Kenya.
I feel so much more comfortable because I know that I'm being
considered an expat and therefore I'm not afraid of the
police there. I'm not afraid of asking public
servants to help me or general society to assist me in any way
or to connect with anyone because that door is open.
(19:55):
And that's a really strange feeling to have because it can
change on either end of one plane trip for me.
Yeah. It's really, it's really quite
heavy to deal with. And let me ask you, Liz, when
you go to a country that maybe has a bigger space between
(20:16):
immigrant and expat, so let's call it, the aura around being
an expat is much higher. So let's talk about an American
in a deep, dark place in Africa.How do you negotiate that?
How do you feel about that? What is life like between those
experiences as opposed to, let'ssay, Portugal, where you're
closer to this community than you would be in Africa?
(20:40):
Yeah, I think there's this levelof guilt that you feel for
getting better treatment. There's this level of
discomfort. That you feel when people are
opening doors for you or going out of their way to help you
with something and the oh, hello, ma'am.
(21:01):
Kind of. Language.
I think that it, it can be very uncomfortable to be put in that
position where you feel as though the reason that people
are treating you that way is because people who look like you
who have been there in the past have demanded that treatment.
And I think for me, whenever I'min a place where people see that
(21:26):
I'm a white American and they goout of their way to do
everything for me, all I can think is how terrible they must
have been treated in the past bypeople who look like me.
And, and I think there's a lot of guilt that's associated with
that. And I feel like it's my job.
To be as nice as possible to everyone that I meet in that
(21:50):
country, to show that I don't think I'm better than they are.
It's really interesting because I've seen Liz do this, you know,
she's she's friendly and kind toeveryone everywhere that we go.
So her treatment of people isn'tdependent on where we are
geographically. And that's really cool and I
really appreciate that. But one of the things that
(22:11):
really blows my mind every time when I watch this happen in the
different places that we are is the way that people are
conditioned to deal with you. Because, as you say, they've had
experiences before of dealing with people like you.
And so they've got an expectation of how they're
supposed to treat you without ever having met you.
(22:32):
They don't know whether or not you're a nice person.
They don't know whether or not you deserve to be treated like
royalty. But The thing is that there has
has been an establishment of thestatus of this person that
they're speaking to before you even showed up.
And therefore you deserve a specific kind of treatment.
(22:53):
And I wonder what that must feellike being someone who knows
that, hey, you know what, this person is from America, from the
UK, from Australia. So they need to be treated a
certain way and then looking at someone else who might be from
their own neighborhood, their literal neighbors, friends and
(23:14):
family and looking at them and saying I need to treat them less
than that person who's from those countries.
That's crazy. It's crazy.
It's actually crazy. Now, it really is a fascinating
thing, and I think when we look at these kinds of examples, it
really makes me think about how much of an impact this has got
on the way society is running, especially now where
(23:37):
globalization is so much more extreme than it's ever been
before. So the 4th and final way that
we've seen people distinguish the difference between ex patent
immigrant is choice. So when we posted this on our
Instagram, one of our followers,Kieron Panino Conchis, pointed
out that her distinction betweenex patent immigrant is who
(23:59):
decided that you would go to that country?
And was it a company who told you this is where you're
relocating? Or was it your own decision to
go or your own decision to stay?And this is a really interesting
distinction, I think, and one that we really hadn't thought
about before. And I think this is also quite
country dependent too, because Iknow that in the US, you're not
(24:21):
considered an expat even if yourcompany told you to be there.
You're definitely still considered an immigrant
depending on where you're from, depending on your country,
depending on so many things. And yeah, I feel like this idea
of choice. Is really it's kind of putting
the power back in your hands of I chose to be here.
(24:43):
So I am, I am an immigrant versus we're here for this
contract, we're here for this job.
So I am an expat because this isquite temporary.
And if this job goes away, then I go away.
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm pulling things
apart here, but even inside thatconsideration, a big part of it
(25:04):
is understanding what it is that's motivating people to make
that choice. So an example of people who are
in dire straits economically in a ex third world country needing
to find a way to feed their family and move forward, jumping
on an airplane and starting a new life in a new place.
(25:25):
How much of A choice was that? Because if you were to put
yourself in those shoes, understanding that you are on
the verge of catastrophe or living in extreme poverty with
there being no other way out other than to leave that
situation and try in a new placethat has more economic power.
(25:46):
I do question whether or not that's a choice.
Because what else are you going to do?
Stay in the same place and struggle for how long?
Watch your family disintegrate and struggle into future
generations? What are you going to do?
Again, that's the question. I, I don't really have any
answer for it. But what I'm saying is that if
(26:07):
you choose to jump on an airplane and start a new life
somewhere, or cross a border andstart a new life somewhere, I
don't automatically assume that the choice is full of
fulfillment and ambition and positivity for some new life
that's full of sunshine and love.
(26:27):
Sometimes it's a case of I'm doing this because I need to
survive and being able to appreciate people who are in
that stream of life is an important thing.
And I don't think that we're doing it if we feel as though we
need to be discriminatory because they carry the label of
(26:49):
immigrant, because it was a choice.
All right, Ryan, I have a big question.
That was a bit heavy for you. No.
It was good, it was good. I just, I do have a bigger
question though from a psychology point of view.
As a therapist for expats specifically, what happens to
(27:10):
someone when they are treated asless than by the people that are
around them? Yeah, it is a very complicated
thing psychologically and I don't know if anything applies
to anyone completely. I don't know if there's a
template response and feeling that people go through, but I do
(27:32):
know that it really does requesta great deal of consideration
from the people who are in thesesituations because they're
needing to consider their own identities.
They're needing to consider how they fit in with the rest of the
society that they're living in. They're needing to ask questions
about what their value is and who they are and how they fit in
(27:57):
and how they're going to make itwork.
And it becomes very difficult because sometimes if you're up
against it on a community level,you can end up becoming very
angry. I've been there before of
needing to look at someone else in the eye and make a case for
yourself to explain that no, I am educated.
(28:19):
No, I am hard working and needing to actually work hard to
convince them of that so that I can have the same opportunities
that other people can have. And I really have a soft spot in
my heart for so many people who are moving from inverted commas
poor countries to rich countries.
(28:40):
And really, people busting theirbats to contribute economically
and socially and working hard toput their kids through school
and to build a new life and still needing to deal with
discrimination and just general negative perspectives and
(29:01):
perceptions. And that's really hard to see
because I, like I said, I mean, maybe I'm biased because I'm
part of that treatment, but it is difficult.
And I just want people to know that the main thing that you can
do is actually engage in discourse and discussion and to
talk about it because it is something that affects us all.
(29:22):
And it's something that shapes so much of how the world sees
this issue. Because if you keep quiet about
it, that anger inside as a person can grow and turn into
something different. The way that people are treating
each other just in general ends up taking a lot more of a
(29:42):
negative tinge on an international relations basis.
And if you start to consider what it is that we can do to
improve the situation of making sure that everyone is treated
with kindness and respect, talking about it as the first
place to start. So that's my thinking as a
psychologist, having that conversation, getting into the
(30:05):
topic, talking about how you feel and the fact that we're
fighting for equality rather than anything else.
I think it's an important way oflooking at it.
Yeah, I, I agree. I think you're never alone and
whatever you're going through. Someone else has probably gone
through it and to know that. They've also gone through it
(30:27):
just makes you feel less alone and to be able to share some of
these frustrations, to share some of these pent up feelings
that you have inside, whether it's to a friend, to a
therapist, to whoever, just getting them out often makes
them feel less heavy. Absolutely, because these are
heavy feelings and it's not a weird thing to feel what it is
(30:52):
that you're feeling because a lot of people have this topic in
their minds and have considered it, but the conversations are
not happening around it and that's the first place to start.
So, yeah, I think the biggest way that we're really seeing
this is that immigrants are poorand struggling and not as good
(31:13):
as the people who live in this country.
Expats are rich and powerful anddeserving of a red carpet being
rolled out for them. And I think that people who come
here with those labels are oftenthinking that.
So do you feel as though people in your new country should speak
your language? Should they cater to your every
whim? Should they be really grateful
(31:34):
that you're there? Or do you feel like you need to
make yourself smaller and quieter in your new country?
That you can't rock the boat, That you need to make sure that
people in this country know justhow grateful you are to be
there? And I think a bigger question is
how would it feel to be somewhere in the middle, to take
up the space of a person becauseyou're a person, To not expect
(31:57):
people to treat you any better or to treat you any worse than
they would treat anyone else. And to embrace some of the
customs in your new place and also bring some of the
traditions that you love from back home.
I feel like ex pet versus immigrant.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing and it doesn't have to
be verses. We're all in this together.
(32:20):
I wish we would act like it. Absolutely.
I think adding to a society is an important way of
understanding what other people are bringing.
Because there seems to be this level of insecurity around new
cultures being added to a particular culture.
And people get so insecure aboutit that they don't realize that
(32:42):
things become better for them, being able to experience
something bigger and greater. If there's a reduction of
cultural aspects of the originalsociety, that's not a question
around the people who are entering that society.
It's a question of the people who are already there.
And being able to say, hey, we're all in this together.
(33:03):
We're all wanting to live a lifethat's fuller and more colorful
and more positive. That's there.
And it's for the taking. And having this conversation and
trying to figure out how we should treat each other in a way
that makes us all feel valued isalways going to be #1 And that
brings me to another question, Liz.
(33:25):
Why do we use the word expats inour Expats Listen podcast?
Why did we choose that name? Yeah.
So I'm going to be very honest with you guys in my digital
marketing career. I think that we identify as both
and I think we identify as expats.
We identify as immigrants and choosing a name for this
podcast, the most important thing for me was to use the word
(33:47):
that you are using. And most people that we know who
are foreigners, who are living here, most of the people I knew
when I was a foreigner living inAustralia, most of the people
that I knew when I was living inKenya and South Africa and all
different places identified as expats are searching for the
word expat. And I wanted to make our podcast
(34:10):
easy to find. I think really this isn't a
podcast just for expats. This is a podcast for anyone who
is living in another country or thinking about making the move
to another country. And.
Yeah, we chose Expats listen strictly to make it easier for
you guys to find us. Absolutely.
This is a podcast made by peoplewho are expats and immigrants.
(34:34):
Sometimes we might feel like expats in the morning and
immigrants in the evening. And this is for everyone.
And we really aren't the kind ofpeople who are handing out the
expat and immigrant labels very easily or very quickly.
And I've kind of feel as though from my side, I'm happy to be an
immigrant and I'm happy to call everyone an immigrant.
(34:57):
And if that doesn't make people happy, that I'm happy to be an
expat and then to call everyone an expat because we're all one
and the same. Next, Liz, what do we got coming
up? All right.
So our next segment on the podcast is Would You Rather?
So in this segment, we've got a series of questions and we will
(35:19):
ask would you rather A or B where A&B are going to be
countries. So we'll be choosing countries
that either one or both of us has been to.
And we're going to do the same questions for this round of
episodes and we'll get your input and figure out what you
guys like hearing about and whatquestions you want asked.
(35:39):
And then that might be for the next round.
But for this round, we've got our questions and I have got our
countries, Ryan. So for this week's Would you
Rather we are going to choose between France and New Zealand?
Oh, this is going to be tough. Those are two great Dragney many
nations and I have an affinity towards France because of the
(36:00):
deliciousness of their food, so really keen to get into this.
Well, the first one starts with food.
So Ryan, would you rather eat a pizza in France or in New
Zealand? Am I correct in saying that
France shares a border with Italy?
You are correct. I would assume that they've been
one or two people from Italy whohave defected to France and are
(36:22):
cranking out amazing pizza. So I'm going to go France with
my pizza you. I have to agree, I think France
for the pizza makes sense. I think we're going to get the
French just do food so well. I feel like if it was any food
the French would do it well and I'll be happy to eat the French
version of of anything. Absolutely.
I think that France, I, I want people in France to know that I
(36:46):
feel as though they have some ofthe best food on the planet.
The way that they eat out there is really something special and
it's one of my favorite things about that place.
Completely. All right.
Next up, would you rather go fora hike in France or in New
Zealand? Oh, that's a really good
question, because I know that there are some really good hikes
(37:08):
in France, which we've actually done.
But I know that they made Lord of the Rings in New Zealand, and
I would absolutely do one of thetrails that one of the hobbits
might have completed in that's in that movie franchise.
(37:28):
And I don't know if there's a real Mordor, but I would like to
go there. So I'd choose New Zealand and
you. I'm agreeing with you too much,
but yes, I'm also going New Zealand for this one.
I think diversity of landscapes,stunning landscapes.
Not to say anything against France.
There's mountains, there's oceanviews, there's lots of
gorgeousness in France to hike, but I'm going to go to New
(37:50):
Zealand. On this one.
Good call. OK, Would you rather see the
wildlife in France or New Zealand?
What stands out to you? I want to take a moment here
because I need to admit something to you and to our
listeners. In this podcast, I tend to make
this statement that there isn't any good wildlife in Europe.
(38:13):
And it's such a arrogant and ignorant thing to say because in
this past week we went on a little boat trip on some
wetlands just a couple of minutes away from our house.
And while we were on that trip, we saw huge swarms of birds,
(38:35):
flamingos, eagles, some of the most Beautiful Creatures I've
ever seen. They were fish jumping out of
the water, glistening in the afternoon sun.
It was absolutely gorgeous. And when I looked at that, I
realized that I was not giving Europe the credit it deserves
(38:57):
for being biodiverse. I think it's tough because you
are from Africa and you're used to things like elephants and
giraffes, and then you come to Europe and you're not seeing
things like elephants and giraffes or lions and all of
this. So I understand why you have
dissed the European wild left inthe past, but I think it's nice
(39:18):
that you appreciate it more now.So that said, are you choosing
France or are you choosing New Zealand?
That is still a good question. I'm kind of thinking let me go
for New Zealand because I know that they've got a lot of marine
life, which is really interesting.
I don't know too much about the mammals and the rest of it, but
(39:40):
I'd give it a go. I maybe I'd be keen to discover
what New Zealand's got you. Nice.
I think I've gone well watching in New Zealand before and it was
pretty incredible. And I think if you're there
during a migration season, it's absolutely stunning.
Also, this is going to sound weird, but the glow worms in New
(40:02):
Zealand were some of my favoritewildlife that I've ever seen.
There are these caves that you go into and they call it
Blackwater rafting because it's like rafting in a cave and The
Cave is completely lit by glow worms and it was really
incredible. All right.
Next up, would you rather ask for directions in France or in
(40:22):
New Zealand? How's your French, Ryan?
I really like New Zealand people, people from New Zealand.
They've got this specific kind of humor which really resonates
with me. And it's, I don't know, I don't
want to say that it's the same as South African humor.
But it's similar. But it is similar.
(40:43):
They enjoy a joke, they enjoy the humorous part of life, and
people are positive there in a way that is able to turn dark
and sad stuff into something possible and almost kind of
enjoyable at times. So I'm always actually keen to
have a conversation with a New Zealander because I tend to find
(41:06):
it easy to talk to them. And yeah, I would say New
Zealander. I would ask for directions and
then become friends with someone.
Yeah, I think it also really helps that Ryan is quite muscly
and broad shouldered and looks very much like a rugby player.
So whenever he meets people fromrugby nations, I think it's very
easy for them to be like, oh, doyou play rugby?
(41:27):
Let's talk about that. Also, I will say this, it's
important that people in New Zealand don't think that I'm
being too kind because South Africa has never lost to New
Zealand in a Rugby World Cup final.
So I don't want to be that tightwith you because I am better
than you because I am South African.
So just always remember that please.
Wow, those are fighting words. But please still give me
(41:48):
directions to where it is that I'm going.
I, I I'm lost without you. All right, I think this is an
obvious answer for you, but would you rather eat street food
in France or New Zealand? I'd eat any food in France.
You. Yeah, I mean, I think gas
station food in France has been mind blowingly amazing for us,
(42:09):
so I can't imagine going wrong with food in France.
This is an interesting one. Would you rather live for three
months in France or in New Zealand?
I think I would go three months in New Zealand because it's so
far away and if I'm going to go there, I don't want to go there
for a short period of time. I want to spend enough time
there to have a real look around, get some real experience
(42:33):
with the people. They understand how people live
there, see maybe lesser known sites in terms of the nature and
the tourism, things that you cando there.
So I reckon 3 months in New Zealand exploring both islands
would be, I think, time well spent.
I think France is also quite diverse, so it's not a an easy
(42:56):
choice. But yeah, I would go to New
Zealand. I think there's a lot to see and
do there. I like the solitude of the
place. It looks like you can find space
to be alone there and I quite enjoy that.
Where would you choose to do three months?
I think I do. Three months in France, because
I think that living day-to-day French life.
(43:16):
Would be really amazing and to just like pick a little small
town and get your local bakery and your local coffee shop and
figure out my local hikes that Iwant to take and actually having
like a normal. Life.
For three months in France wouldbe a really beautiful
(43:37):
experience. How would you negotiate the
language? I think I would just speak
Spanish to them the way that I do now and not get by very well.
But I I have found that people in general are are quite nice
and I think I can I think I can manage sure a lot of Google
Translate. Three months in France without
the language. I think I I am interested to
(43:59):
hear how that goes for you maybe.
I'll pick some of it up. That would be cool, I think.
I think that on the topic of language, I'm sure we'll cover
this in greater depth at some point.
One of the things that I appreciate so much is when you
make any kind of sincere effort to speak the language of the
place that you're visiting. I'm always so grateful for the
(44:20):
response that people give in those countries because you get
so much positivity from the goodwill of trying to speak that
language that you end up actually making friends.
You end up becoming part of thatgroup of people.
You are able to help other people and be helped.
It's a really cool thing. So maybe your time in France
would be really good for your for your connections with people
(44:43):
there. And I always do that.
I know like 10 to 20 words in like 20 different languages
because I always try to to make that effort and a little bit
goes a long way like you said. I agree.
All right, Next up, would you rather visit for a long weekend
in France or New Zealand? I would do a long weekend in
(45:03):
France quite happily. And I think that I would
probably target specific provinces of France to say this
long weekend I'm going to explore this particular area
because I know that they've got some incredible history there.
It's a really historically significant place and they've
done a really good job of documenting a lot of that
(45:25):
history and showcasing it. And I think a long weekend there
of eating Creme brulee, baguette, some good cheese and
just going through the lands I think would be really fun.
I think, you know, you've got the Pyrenees, you've got amazing
beaches down in the South, you've got a lot to see and do
(45:45):
and you can choose what you wantfor that.
For that four day experience, what would you choose?
Yeah, I'm also going France. I feel like A1 region, like 1
area is, is all you can do in a long weekend and I feel like
there's so many choices. So three months and a long
weekend. Yeah, let's do it.
You want to move to France, OK. All right, OK, all right, Next
(46:06):
up, would you rather do a road trip in France or New Zealand
and I'll go 1st. I'm going New Zealand here.
So even though I'm living for for a while in France, I'm I'm
doing the New Zealand road trip.I have done Rd. trips in France.
I have done Rd. trips in New Zealand and there's just
something that it's different about a New Zealand road trip.
(46:28):
I feel like cheap traffic is more common than car traffic in
New Zealand, and some of the places that you go are so wild
and unexplored feeling and just beautiful and incredible and you
can just pull over onto the sideof the road and explore.
(46:51):
And I really love that in a roadtrip in New Zealand.
That's super cool. I would agree with you.
I think I've also done the road trip in France with you and it
was really amazing and incredible experience.
But I think that that mystery and the freedom that New Zealand
offers off going into a very remote area surrounded by
(47:13):
incredible nature and the ruralness of the whole thing
really does have a specific charm to it.
So I would definitely do a road trip in New Zealand as well.
All right, Next up, I would be shocked if you don't choose the
same as me, but would you ratherlearn the language in France or
(47:33):
New Zealand? So in New Zealand, what language
you would you be learning? There I think.
It would either be English with a New Zealand accent or Maori.
I really, I really have such a love for Maori culture, all of
the Pacific islands in fact, because every person that I've
(47:54):
ever met from that part of the world, they've always been
incredible human beings, some ofthe nicest people that I've ever
met and just quality, quality individuals.
I love the culture, I love the values that those people have
got. And you know, in a, in a silly
way, I don't know if anyone elsehas ever asked themselves this
(48:15):
question of if you were to be a different race or culture, what
would you be? Maori is up there for me, like 1
of the ones that, you know, if there was a giant cosmic shake
up and I needed to wake up tomorrow in a different body and
place, if I was a New Zealander,I really would be quite happy.
(48:38):
But having said that though, if you learn French, you're able to
operate in massive, massive geographic locations across this
whole planet. You can communicate with
millions upon millions of peopleeverywhere.
So it's not even a, it's not even a question of what do I
(48:59):
like more or what do I like less.
It's just a the practicality thing.
So. So French has to be A to you.
That's what I was thinking. I mean, I feel like being able
to snap my fingers and and speakFrench would open up so many
doors. And it is true that Maori people
are amazing. Maori culture is fascinating and
rich and there aren't a lot of Maori speakers.
(49:20):
And it would be cool, but I'm choosing, I'm choosing French.
OK, last one. Are you ready?
Would you rather buy a house in France or in New Zealand?
That's a really good question. I think that realistically
speaking right now, I happen to know that New Zealand is going
(49:40):
through a lot in the economy where there's actually a lot of
struggle with the amount of manypeople are needing to pay for
basic goods and certainly the price of houses.
So I don't know if it would makesense to buy a house out there
because of the price we would need to pay as well as the fact
(50:01):
that we could only visit very seldomly because it's so far
away. I think that there is an
attraction to New Zealand because I think it's such a
beautiful place. But I would say France because
there are certain places in France where you can surf really
nicely. There's certain places in France
that have incredible weather. There's certain places in France
(50:23):
that give you your own space andtime, so I would say France just
because it's easier, not becauseI like it anymore or any less
than New Zealand you. It's interesting that you're
using the word easier, because Ifeel like buying a house in New
Zealand would actually be easier.
What makes it easier? It's all in English and even
(50:45):
though their their houses are more expensive, the New Zealand
dollar is worth a lot less so I think a house in New Zealand and
a house in France would. Actually be quite similarly
priced. So I do think it would be easier
in New Zealand, but the getting there would be the hard part.
I feel like you would need to spend a lot of time going back
(51:07):
and forth. We have a Henry, our wonderful
dog, who couldn't come with us back and forth.
So I guess in that sense it is alot easier to go with France.
And yeah, I think both would be the buying would be easier in
New Zealand, but the owning would be easier in France.
(51:28):
And you'd be living in a countrythat doesn't historically win as
many World Cups as South Africa.And I don't know whether or not
that's the way you want to live.Well, wouldn't it be either
country because both France and New Zealand historically just
can't win as many World Cups as South Africa.
We. Don't even talk about France and
World Cups. It's not even a conversation.
New Zealand is hot on our trails, but still trailing for
(51:49):
sure. But well, if you want to, if you
want to live in France, then I think that's a good call.
You know, then maybe that's the place to be.
You want to spend your three months and your long weekends
there. I think that might be the place
to be here. And thank you so much, everyone,
for listening to Expats listen this week.
(52:12):
It's been so good to share this with you.
I know a very polarizing topic and a lot to think about, I
think for all of us. And I'm sure that this is going
to raise up quite a few questions and thoughts and
feelings from everyone who's listened because everyone's got
a different perspective on this matter.
And we would love to hear what you think and what you feel and
(52:33):
what your take is on the expat versus immigrant conversation.
And if you've got anything that you do want to share with us, we
would love to hear it. We can talk about it in another
show and you can reach out to uson Expats Listen on Instagram or
you can e-mail us on expatslisten@gmail.com that is
(52:54):
EX patslisten@gmail.com or on Instagram.
We'd love to hear from you and until we speak again, have a
good week. Bye bye.
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