August 22, 2025 • 55 mins
Expats Listen is thrilled to announce our first interview! We are joined by another South African named Ryan, but with a very different story. After a gap year in Taiwan, Ryan Brock's partner got a job offer she couldn't refuse in London and together they made the move. What they thought would be maybe 2 or 3 years turned into 8 and counting! While Brock wasn't the most prepared for the move (he only brought one pair of shorts because he never expected to see the sun), the South African community fully took his family under their wings and created a soft landing in a new place.
#expatlife #movetolondon #southafrica #london #interview
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to X Facts Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, the struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz. So Ryan, tell us, how is your
week going? Oh, it is a busy, busy week.
We're doing a lot of travelling,We're seeing a lot of Europe and
(00:20):
we had the exciting opportunity to go across the English Channel
on the Channel. And it was really a really
interesting experience sitting with Henry on my lap, being on a
train in a tunnel underwater andthen arriving in England and
then driving on the other side of the road.
Really fun experience. And you, Liz?
(00:41):
Yeah, it was super cool. Henry's first real overseas
adventure. So our dog has now travelled
more than a lot of our friends and family have.
But I think it's really great and we're happy to be here in
the UK at the moment. And today we actually have our
first ever interview on the Expats Listen podcast.
(01:01):
We're really mixing things up because we have a South African
named Ryan, but he is a different person than Arcolas
Ryan and every ex pet has their own story.
So let's dive in. First things first, Ryan,
welcome. What's your name and where are
you from and where do you live now?
Thank you guys, Jeepers. Yeah, what an honor.
(01:23):
Second, second Ryan on the podcast.
So yeah. My name's Ryan Brock, originally
from South Africa, born and raised in the Eastern Cape of
South Africa. So yeah, it was born in Port
Elizabeth, then moved to small town Grandstown, went to school
there for a bit and then high school in East London, and then
(01:48):
went back to university in Grandstown.
So it kept the door within a radius of probably like 300
kilometers. And yeah, now I find myself
living in the UK, in London withmy family.
When you were young, did you know a lot of people who lived
in other countries? Was travel a big part of your
(02:11):
life or what? What were your kind of
experiences of life outside of South Africa?
Yeah, very, very minimal, to be honest with you.
Like one of our holidays were pretty, pretty local.
We were really blessed to, you know, have the beach and the
coastline within, you know, 45 minute drive from where majority
(02:37):
of mine sort of younger years were.
And then, you know, later years moved to East London where we
were obviously at the coast, which was amazing.
And then travel was very, very limited in terms of
international travel. First trip overseas was really
just across the border to Botswana and that was, I mean,
(03:01):
when I was 1314 years old and then was lucky enough to go on a
school music to also at the sameage.
And that was my first exposure to, to international travel.
But as far as like internationalfriends and all of that or
people that I knew were travelling internationally, it
(03:21):
was probably all pretty much thesame.
Everyone sort of did their holidays locally, you know, the
game parks and things like that in South Africa, travelling to
the mountains and the Drakensburg.
So yeah, that's pretty much the extent of my travel in the
younger years. Yeah, so Ryan's obviously from
the same area that I'm from. We grew up together in the same
(03:45):
local area in South Africa, and international travel just wasn't
a big thing for people back then.
It's a small place. It's pretty rural at times and
the small cities are quite small.
We have everything that we need,but not really glorifying
adventure and long distance travel and learning new things,
(04:05):
and it wasn't really put on our table as being something that we
could necessarily achieve. I think we always knew that we
could have done it, but no one was pushing us to make that
move, which I thought was interesting when we think about
it because so many people come from small places where
international travel isn't encouraged and it isn't
(04:26):
glorified to a sense of creatingsome level of aspiration and
ambition in young people to go and achieve that.
And I think for us, it was getting to the age and to the
point where we had enough exposure from people outside of
our local community who had goneout and experienced all of these
new things and told us about it.And we've heard about it and
(04:46):
even just media. And that gave us the what's the
word, the interest in actually discovering all of that.
And I think a lot of people fromsmall towns go through stuff
like that. Would you say that that trip
that you took for the music tourkind of sparked something in you
that made you want to travel more, or did it make you ask a
(05:09):
lot more questions? Or how did you feel when you
went really overseas, like not just to the neighboring country,
but quite far? And can you tell us a bit about
that trip? Yeah, no, it was, it was super
exciting, like it was, I remember, you know, it was when
I was 1314 years old and it was only two weeks in total length.
(05:32):
But it felt like we, we saw and did a lot in that time.
We managed to do three countriesin that time.
The majority of the time was in Austria because we went there
for that competition was, was hosted there, did a bit of
travelling around Austria itself.
And then we also did some time travelling in Germany and in
(05:55):
Hungary. And yeah, it was, it was
fascinating. Like obviously being a young
teenager, first, first travel. It was, I distinctly remember
being fascinated by the breakfasts because I, you know,
growing up in South Africa, it was, yeah, you'd have your
cereal for breakfast before school and, and that was it.
(06:17):
And then, you know, maybe on theweekends you'd do a bit of a fry
or something like that. But there it was, you know,
suddenly this continental breakfast where I was getting
served rolls and cheese and it was the breakfast and I, I just
and, and cold meats. What is this?
Yeah, it was like, surely not this.
This can't be a breakfast. Why are you people eating like
(06:40):
this? Yeah, yeah.
And so, yeah, that was, it's just a memory that's completely
stuck with me that, you know, why are these people in Germany,
Austria, Hungary? Because it was all the same
right In in all three of those countries.
Very similar culture wise. But yeah, their breakfasts just
blew me away. So I must say I did enjoy going
(07:01):
back back home to South Africa and you know, then being able to
go and have my cornflakes or cocoa pops.
It is really interesting the things that stand out to you
when you do experience a new culture for the first time
because it's not always the cultural aspects and elements
that you might see on Instagram videos or travel guides.
Sometimes it's just like the thethe color of a certain sign is
(07:25):
different to where you're from or something smells different
and it creates such a big part of being, wow, I'm in a new
place and this is super interesting.
It's true. My first trip abroad was to
London when I was around the same age, around 12:13.
And the thing that I remember most from that trip is that in
(07:46):
the taxis you got to sit backwards.
And I thought that was the coolest thing in the whole
world. And we were there because my dad
was working in London for the summer.
So we actually went for the whole summer.
And the taxis were incredible. And then the soda machine, if my
dad's office, you could get any soda you wanted.
And this was like the days before this Coke, Freestyle
(08:08):
machines. So my biggest memories of
international travel from my first trip were sitting
backwards in the taxi and drinking a lot of soda.
Yeah, there. You go like it's just the things
that you remember, but like talking about the the, the soft
drinks and things like that. I remember the Fanta being
absolutely terrible. Really.
What didn't you like about the Fanta?
(08:30):
It just didn't taste like Fanta.Like, I mean, obviously in South
Africa you get your Coca Colas and you get your fences and.
Do you remember what it tasted like?
It it tasted less orange. Like less orange.
I would probably less faith you probably had the like sugarier
Fanta. Exactly.
Yeah, I reckon that one in SouthAfrica is obviously not,
(08:50):
probably not the most original 1and it probably had more sugar.
Well I'm glad that you brought this up because Fanta for me is
something that sticks out between the two different
countries. The Fanta in South Africa is
really just orange flavored syrup and fizzy water, whereas I
feel like the Fanta in Europe today is almost more fizzy
(09:11):
orange juice and I like that difference.
How do you feel about Fanta these days?
To be honest, don't drink much of it.
No, OK, OK. If I do get the chance and and
this is like obviously, you know, living, living abroad and
having the. You're not actually drinking a a
litre of fenter a day, but. Yeah.
But the the the one that I wouldopt for, I guess in terms of
(09:34):
like fizzy drink in the in that direction would be the the
French. Orange, Gina.
Orange. Yeah, because.
That is very much. Orange Orange Gina is the is the
OG is the king of orange sodas. Absolutely no for sure.
All right, well, so that was your childhood experiences.
(09:56):
Let's talk about now when you became an adult and started to
travel a bit more. So what was your first time that
you actually moved abroad and how did you make that decision
to go abroad for that first time?
Yeah. So that was so, you know, Fast
forward through school, university and then straight
(10:16):
into working life. Sort of got to a point where I
didn't do any international travel or have a gap year, so to
speak. Got to a point where I wanted to
go and do some traveling and oneof our best friends from school
and university days. Also Orion.
(10:37):
Everyone, they're friends with his name Ryan.
Yeah, it's exclusive plan. He him and his wife were out in
Taiwan at the time. And so we were obviously staying
in touch. And you know, I had this sort of
urge to go and travel and explore and just sort of have a
break from working life as, as Iknew it in in my 20s and went to
(11:00):
Taiwan for a year and lived there.
I managed to convince my brotherwho was, he's six years younger
than me, but he was finishing uphis studies in the States.
And I said to him, hey, let's you know what, what do you think
about going to Taiwan for a yearand, and travelling and teaching
And he was all on board for it. So yeah, we had a an awesome gap
(11:23):
year in Taiwan. Do you feel like it was easier
to make the decision to go therebecause your brother was going
with you? Yeah, I think there was
definitely some comfort in in the fact that he was there and
then also one of our best friends was there too.
So it's it came with definitely a soft landing when we first got
(11:45):
there because he had already figured all those things out.
He, him and his wife had alreadysaid being there for a year or
two at the time. And so they knew, hey, this is
what you need to do to get, you know, transport or scooter or
things like that. This is the way that you would
be able to go and get an apartment.
So, yeah, we were very lucky in that sense that a lot of that
(12:10):
parts to figuring life out at a new country.
We had a head start with them. Do you feel like you gained some
confidence in that trip, having that guidance to explore and to
have all the basics covered? Was that confidence inspiring,
would you say? Yeah, definitely.
I think they, whilst there was abit of a soft landing, so to
(12:32):
speak, there was a lot of stuff that we obviously still had to
figure out ourselves and going for a trip over the weekend.
You, you have to figure out likeI need to get this train, I need
to get this information, etcetera.
So yeah, I definitely think there was a, you know,
confidence that was gained through through those travels.
(12:54):
And then you came back from Taiwan and you had a long
distance girlfriend throughout that time in Taiwan.
You came back and you reunited with her in South Africa.
And then what happened? Yeah.
So I think going back to the theyear in Taiwan dorm came over
and visited, which was great. So we did a little bit of travel
(13:17):
in Taiwan itself, but then we also booked a trip to Vietnam
and that was amazing. So got to see a bit of Southeast
Asia that way and travelled around Vietnam.
And then, yeah, came back in in 2016 and we set up in
Johannesburg. We were living good lives.
We had all our old friends that we had obviously made from the
(13:38):
previous years. And then an opportunity came up
for Doran. She saw a job posting that came
up for a position based in in London.
And she said to me jokingly, oh this, this would be a dream job,
that there's no chance that I'llget it.
And that I said, you know, go for it.
(14:00):
And she did. And she managed to go through
the 1st 2 rounds of interviews, which were all obviously online
or Zoom, Zoom calls at the time.And then she got through to the
essentially the final round where the CEO of the company was
his sister had a holiday house in Pettenburg Bay, which is in
(14:21):
the Eastern Cape and invited herto an interview there.
And so we were, at the time, my parents were living in Port
Elizabeth. So we took the day to drive
through to plates and she had the interview.
I still remember going to Shell Garage having a coffee day while
she was having this interview. And yeah, she got back into the
(14:44):
car and she was like, they've offered me the job, they want me
to come to London. So that was obviously super
exciting and, and quite a shock,I guess.
I mean, we would obviously just on a family holiday.
And now suddenly it was like, hey, are we moving to do we need
to move to London soon? So you were sitting in a Shell
(15:05):
garage drinking a cup of coffee,having no idea that your entire
life was going to change in a few minutes.
Yeah, I think, I mean, obviouslywe had a very good feeling about
it considering it was the CEO himself inviting her, which he
was obviously on holiday. So it obviously meant quite a
(15:27):
bit. So we did have a good feeling.
But yeah, I mean, then suddenly the drive home back to PE was,
hey, what? How are we going to, you know,
we need to take this opportunity.
How are we going to break the news to the family And, you
know, are we definitely going todo this?
So yeah. So did you have a conversation
(15:48):
before she did the interview saying if she got the job, you
guys were going to move to London?
Or was it an automatic acceptance of the fact that you
were going to now move to the UKas soon as she got that job
after that call? Yeah, I think, I think we said
to each other like, hey, if thisis successful, we need to do it.
(16:10):
For sure. OK.
So it wasn't once she got back into the car, it wasn't like we
were debating. It was more of a case of how do
we break the news to everyone and that case.
Actually happened, so you knew it was going to happen as soon
as it as soon as she got the yes.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like it was just an opportunity
(16:31):
that we saw that was going to open us up to so much more
trouble. And and that's how how we saw it
at the time. So when she got back in the car
and now you're like, OK, this ishappening, we're moving to
London. Did you talk about a timeline?
Did you think we're going to stay for a few years?
(16:52):
Did you think we're going to stay for a specific amount of
time or did you think that it would be forever?
Yeah. I mean, we definitely didn't
think any like too much detail into the timeline right then.
I, I know for a fact we, we definitely weren't saying
forever and it wasn't going to be this permanent move.
(17:15):
It was the way that we were saying is, OK, let's go over for
a few years. Obviously in, in the back of our
minds, there's always the, if you stay in a place long enough,
you, there's the opportunity to become a citizen.
But that was never ever even a like an, the, the reason that
say for, for the opportunity to move at the time, I think we
(17:40):
probably thought maybe two to five years was going to be the
timeline that we would come overbecause we whilst the, the job
opportunity was there. I don't think we, you know, I
think we were quite realistic with ourselves to be like, well,
what happens if we're not enjoying it and we want to move
(18:01):
back? And so I think we put the sort
of safety number of like, let's go for two to five years.
Obviously can't just go for one year.
That's not going to be worth it.Like, you know, renting a house,
buying furniture, sure, but alsodidn't want to commit to like,
oh, this is going to be a decadenow that we are.
(18:22):
So spoiler, how long have you been here now?
Yeah. So now we have been here for 8
1/2 years, so. Yeah, not what you expected.
No, no, I think you know what? Like it's obviously sounds
cliche, but life happens. And so we obviously moved over
here, rented a house, and then there was obviously a couple of
(18:46):
years and then COVID hits and that happened.
So, yeah, then at the same time we had our first child and also
during the COVID time and then we made the choice to buy a
house as well. And so it's just kind of like
snowballed from there. And now we're in our 2nd, 2nd
house that we've we've bought and we've had a second child as
(19:08):
well. So life is, is very much full on
like moving ahead and and yeah, eight, 8 1/2 years now.
So if you were to be asked abouttimeline today, how long do you
think you'll stay? Great question.
I think we've already started tosay that we want to move back
(19:29):
like that. That's definitely a conversation
we have quite a few times and it's, I almost envy the people
that say no, this is for life, we're going to be here because
then you have that certainty. But we obviously with small kids
and with grandparents back in South Africa and family, rest of
the family, we're super conscious that we want our kids
(19:53):
and families to obviously spend time with each other.
And so it's tough. Like we, we try and go back at
least once a year. And yeah, I think the timeline
that we set ourselves now is go,we're going to move back in the
next 5 years. But there's a lot to figure,
figure out and a lot to considerbecause we have kids now,
(20:14):
they're going to school. What does that look like then?
What is the impact on them? And.
You know, starting new friendship groups, not only for
them, which is probably going tobe a little bit easier because
of school, but then for us as well.
And where do we go back in SouthAfrica as well.
You know, we've got family in two different hubs of, of South
(20:36):
Africa. So that's also quite a thing to
figure out. So if you were to go back, where
would you go? I think without travels back
home. I think he's starting to make
decisions without his wife here.Dawn.
Dawn is. Fully aware of.
The frozen font. List that we've got for both I
think in an ideal world, Cape Town is is very much up there
(21:01):
but then we've obviously got theother let's say half of the
family in the in eastern South Africa and so and I love Sharks
rugby, although they're playing terribly at the moment.
It would be cool to go on the weekends and watch this this.
Is how we make major life decisions, yeah.
Yeah. And it's more more today
(21:23):
compared to Cape Town, right. So yeah, I think probably first
on the list would be Cape Town and then maybe Durban a close
second. But I, I know for a fact that
and Dawn and I are 100% aligned with this, that we wouldn't go
back to living our old lives, soto speak, in Johannesburg.
We just don't see that as as where we'd want to settle again.
(21:47):
So what are the things that you love about living in in London?
There's a lot. I mean, I think the the ability
and and this goes back to the kind of original reason we
jumped at the opportunity is theaccess to the rest of the world
essentially, but especially Europe.
(22:07):
So we've been lucky enough pre kids to do quite a lot of travel
into Europe, the likes of Spain,France, Portugal, Italy, and
then you know, further further than that as well.
So I think that's probably one of the biggest reasons there's,
it's a very easy life in, in some regards, like it being a
(22:32):
first world country versus technically the third world
country that South Africa is I guess is a big convenience
factor there. You know, the fact that you, I
guess Amazon's everywhere not, but you know it, it works
perfectly. I can have something delivered
tomorrow there. There's a convenience factor to
(22:54):
it too. There's a safety element to it
too. I guess.
You know, it's, it's no secret that South Africa has some
issues in that regard. And I think it's it's nice to
know that as a family we can walk down the streets to the
shops and not necessarily have to go in the car.
Yeah. But that's that's not that's
(23:16):
definitely down the list in terms of the reasons why we live
in London at the moment. And what about work?
Because that was the original reason that you came here,
right? It was for your partner's job.
So do you feel like the work opportunities are easier in in
London or do you feel as though it was just a once in a
(23:38):
lifetime? This job is going to be amazing
and then you had to find a job to make it work here.
How was your experience finding work in London compared to in
South Africa? Coming back from Taiwan, I did
struggled because but that thosestruggles came as a result of me
changing direction in my career.I was in like sports
(24:01):
rehabilitation to begin with, then went over and did the
teaching and I wanted to move away from the sports rehab side
of things. So I wanted to move into sports
sponsorship, marketing, that sort of thing.
And it was a struggle. But that was based on the fact
that you needed the experience. But I didn't have the
experience, but I, yeah, so there was that aspect of it.
(24:24):
And so it was a struggle that I eventually got an opportunity in
SA and it was, it was great and going well.
Then moving over to the UK, we moved over Dawn had her job
which was great. And then I obviously started
applying for roles once we got here, as much as I tried from
(24:44):
South Africa when I knew that wewere moving, which was in a
space of like 2 to three months.That is quick.
So it's just two months between getting the offer and actually
coming here. Exactly.
Yeah, So Dawn. Dawn came over in the beginning
of March and I followed like a week or two later.
I had a family wedding to attend.
So yeah, it was super quick, 2 1/2, three months from the
(25:07):
actual offer. And then I, yeah, I kind of
struggled, I guess to find a role.
Again, limited experience, although I had that year of
working in sports sponsorship inSouth Africa, it was limited and
I wasn't getting having much luck finding something.
And then as a lot of times happen, you have a friend of a
(25:31):
friend who knows someone and managed to get into a job that
was kind of in sports, but sports and education and did
that for a couple of months, wasn't very excited about it.
It wasn't definitely not a long term thing.
(25:51):
And then got the opportunity to move into my current business,
which, yeah, the right place at the right time, I guess.
So was, I would say there are quite a lot more opportunities
for that at the time in London. But it's interesting that you
say it was through friends of a friend and like, you knew
someone, so did you actually have a community of people here?
(26:14):
So when you had moved to Taiwan,you had this soft landing
because you had friends there and you already had a bit of an
easier path. Did you have that same thing
here in London? Yeah, we definitely did so,
although this time around obviously moving to an English
speaking country, being the UK, that was obviously a lot easier.
(26:35):
But we had some friends that were already here through school
days that that we linked up withquite quickly through
Johannesburg days as well when so some friends that already
moved over. So it was, it was an easy way to
again transition and build up a friendship group through those
(26:59):
those friends that you had already, right?
Yeah, it's just stark contrast to Ryan Govinder here, who moved
to Portugal knowing absolutely no one.
Yeah, it is. It's a major transition to go
through and I think depending onwhere you're going, there is a
certain level of a head start that's available for different
people. So I think the UK is definitely
(27:22):
a great place to move if you're a South African and you're
looking for a readily available community.
You know, you've got a better chance of plugging into a South
African community which you can use as a base to move on to
friendships with people from other countries and certainly
local British people. I think another good place for
that is Australia. So there are a lot of South
(27:43):
Africans who are in Australia and are able to actually
consider themselves a reasonablecommunity for you to have a base
to work from. Moving to Portugal, there are
more and more S Africans, but I think that when we moved it was
really a bit tough because it was starting from scratch,
making new friendships with anyone who was open and willing
(28:07):
to be a friend really. And I think that added to the
complexity and the difficulty ofit, if I'm honest.
I think when we come to visit Ryan here in the UK, which I try
to do a couple of times a year, it's really interesting because
of the number of people I get toreconnect with, aside from Ryan,
who were part of my life back then, those days too.
(28:28):
And it then becomes a really attractive proposition for me to
visit because I feel it's almosthomely in a certain way, as
opposed to, I think when they come to visit in Portugal, we
are a big contact point to exploring a world that sometimes
neither of us know about, you know?
So it really is an interesting thing.
(28:49):
I think it makes such a big difference moving to a country
where there's a pre established community of people who you know
are at least slightly similar towho you are.
Yeah, and even more to that extreme of people who you
actually know, because I moved to Australia, there's a lot of
Americans who live in Australia,but I didn't personally know
anyone. So that soft landing wasn't
(29:12):
quite the same as, oh, this person who went to the same
school as me, or this person whoI knew from this thing.
Interesting. Can I, can I ask an interesting
question? I think it's an interesting
question. Do you think that it depends on
the definition of community for those people?
Because I'll, I'll go out on a limb here and I'll say this, S
(29:33):
Africans need community. It's a big part of how we
operate. We need each other.
Ubuntu. Ubuntu, do you feel as though
Americans share the same connectedness?
No, I think that Americans are super selfish.
I think that we really care about ourselves and I don't
think that we have this warm embrace for other people the way
(29:58):
that S Africans do. My experience of, of the
difference between these two cultures is, is quite a stark
contrast in that I have friends and family who I love and would
do anything for. And when people come to visit, I
am thrilled that they're visiting me.
And I definitely welcome them with open arms.
And I'm so happy to have them. And I have visited friends in
(30:21):
other places and they're so happy to have me.
And it's, it's great. But it's not the same thing of
the third Ryan giving you this list of here's everything you
need to know about living in Taiwan.
Here's how to get an apartment. Here's how to get this, here's
how to get that. Like here is your handbook on
how to live in this country. I've, I've lived in so many
(30:43):
places and I've never had that. I went to live with my very best
friend in the world in Kenya. And he definitely helped me
through all of these things. He helped me get the apartment.
He helped, but he did it well for me.
It wasn't here's how you do thisthing.
It was, oh, you're coming here, so I'll just do this for you.
(31:05):
And then I never learned and I could never pass that knowledge
on to anyone else. And it was amazing that it was
basically done for me. It was very, very easy for me to
move to Kenya. But it was just him and I, It
wasn't a community of people that we knew.
And, and I of course, became friends with all of his friends
who are still close friends of mine today.
(31:27):
But there's something different about the way that S Africans
bring people in of oh, you know,that auntie who went to school
with my auntie and then my cousin knew you from that
primary school dance. So yes, come here today and I
know I'm going to hook you up. I feel like that like 6° of
(31:51):
separation thing happens all thetime in South African
communities. Am I wrong or do you what do you
think? No, you're 100% right.
And I think it's this is gonna maybe sound a little bit funny,
but in terms of South Africans, what's deeply rooted in our
culture and what we enjoy doing is the the bride, right?
(32:15):
And then and this is what we do for fun.
What is a bride? A BBQ, right?
So you know it's. It's so much more than a BBQ,
right? It really is.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, In entry into
anyone's brides, you bring a packet of Simba crisps and so
many people come over to that. It's not just, hey, we're just
doing it with our family. It's so and so's neighbor is
(32:39):
coming as well. You know, so and so's friend.
And it goes to your point about,well, this auntie is got this
family member in town and this friend is also.
And that's, you know, how we sort of bring everyone together,
I guess. Yeah, There's always going to be
some reference point which we use for commonality.
We have something in common. We've experienced something
(33:01):
similar. We're from a similar place.
We've seen something that you'veseen.
We know someone who you know, and it's such an important
thing. There's a small business called
A Taste of Southern Africa, which is in Portugal and it's
just outside of Porto. And it's being run by two people
(33:22):
who grew up in my old community in Merebank, Durban.
And I found them through Liz on Instagram and made contact with
them and started having a chat and discovered that they stayed
very close to where my grandmother's house used to be.
And now we're friends. And we've already committed to
(33:44):
hanging out at some point as soon as we're back in Portugal
because we share something that overlaps us and it's important.
And we need to meet each other so that we know that we're here
together. And it's an amazing thing to
have a connection with someone who I haven't even met yet
(34:04):
because of what we shared in thepast.
And I think you're very lucky. I think you're very privileged
to have moved to a place where those kinds of relationships are
available and ready for you. Even if you didn't know the
people that you know, you know that the people here of many of
them know a lot about your life without even ever having had the
(34:26):
conversation, which is an amazing thing.
And I think that's something to be said about South Africa as a
country as well, that it is smaller and compared to the US
And I think it is more intimate that you have so many of these
experiences that are the same. I feel like my life growing up
in New York compared to someone's life growing up in
(34:48):
Mississippi, we have so little in common.
And to come over and be like, oh, do you remember this?
Do you remember that? I probably don't, and they
probably don't remember the things that I remember.
But I feel like in South Africa,you guys really do have so many
of these Common Core experiences.
(35:09):
Like you follow these Facebook and Instagram pages with like
pictures of those gummy candies that you used to eat as kids and
you send them to each other. You're a little friend group and
you all resonate so deeply with those same things.
Yeah, man, that's true. Like one of the things that I
mean, just going on a bit of a tangent care about the US it it
(35:32):
almost feels like each state is like its own country, right?
And so you could probably relateto other people from New York a
lot more and you would from, youknow, someone that's in Texas.
Completely. Completely.
But that's something that happens a lot.
If you ever meet Liz and you askher where are you from, she's
probably not going to say the United States.
(35:53):
She's going to say New York. Always.
I, I, the number of times that I've said I'm from the United
States, I could count on like one hand.
I where are you from? Ryan's from South Africa.
I'm from New York. Those are.
That's the answer. I think that cultural identity
is that strong. Yeah.
Yeah, I think so too. I think it's also a bit of a
(36:14):
point of pride. I, I love my city, I love New
York. I think that New York is an
incredible place, and I'd way rather answer questions about
New York than answer questions about American politics.
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
OK, let's get back on track. So how different was your move
(36:38):
to London compared to your expectations?
So we're going back to you're atthis gas station, you're having
this coffee, your entire life changes in a few minutes, you've
got two months, you pack up everything.
And you've had lived abroad before, so you probably had some
expectations of what it was going to be like.
You also, like we said, had thisgroup of friends that you knew,
(37:00):
people who were already here. So how did it measure up?
What did you expect compared to what actually happened?
So one of the things and Dawn reminds me every single feels
like every single year about it,or at least every summer.
But you know, you sort of pack up one bag, 2223 KG bag of, you
(37:22):
know, the stuff that you're going to now build your life on
moving to a new country. And I packed one pair of shorts
because I thought it was always going to be cold and rainy and
Dawn always looks at me. And she's like, how?
Why did you decide that it was OK to move to London if you
thought it was going to be raining and and cold all the
time? So Needless to say, when the
(37:43):
summer came around, which is amazing when it's not raining,
of course I needed to go and buysome new shorts.
But. So the weather really surprised
you in a good way. Your expectations were that it
was going to be terrible basically every day.
Yeah, I think a lot of people say, oh, London's always grey.
It is grey a lot of the time. I think there's probably some
(38:03):
stats out there that say 280 days of the year or grey stars
or something. But the summer is amazing and I
don't think I expected that at all, so I didn't.
It was a pleasant surprise for sure.
Super long days, the fact that you can finish work and still do
all kinds of activities with thesun only going down like 9/30/10
(38:27):
at night. So yeah, that was, that was a
pleasant surprise. Yeah.
I, I think it's another thing that's really struck me moving
here is actually the amount, especially in London, I would
say is the amount of like mixed cultures.
And in in some ways it almost felt like Johannesburg, where
(38:53):
you've got everyone from different provinces or other
towns, they all come there as a as a place to obviously work and
make money. And it kind of feels the same
with London. Just with the world.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So a very black big mix of
cultures, nationalities. And so whilst obviously there's
(39:17):
a lot of British people and you,you obviously meet them at work
and you see them on the tube and, and transports and stuff
like that. They were, it was awesome to see
the the amount of other culturesand, and the mix that that
London has ready. So yeah, I think that was one of
(39:37):
the sort of biggest surprises orthings that I noticed.
All right. My last question, do you have
any advice for people who are looking to move abroad?
Wow, I think the best advice I can give is be as open minded as
you can be. And I think if you can it, it is
(39:58):
always nice to have people from your home country that you could
connect with and things like that.
But I think there's so much value to be gained with
exploring outside of that comfort zone and so.
It's something that over the last couple of years I think
(40:19):
Dawn and I have really enjoyed is meeting people outside of the
South African community that that we love to hang out with
obviously. But it's been really great and
fulfilling to have make friends that are British really, and
some friends that are from Scotland, some friends that are
(40:41):
from Wales and stuff like that. So yeah, I would say that whilst
it's always nice to have that comfort zone, that's probably
one of the best things that I would say is just get to know as
many people as you can really outside of that.
I think that's great advice. Are we ready to move on to Would
You rather? Oh, I'm excited to hear the
(41:02):
option. All right.
Well, would you rather is our segment where we ask questions
of would you rather do this in country A or country B?
But since we have Ryan Brock, who has lived in Taiwan and in
London, today we're going to choose between Taiwan and
London. OK, let's get started.
Would you rather eat a pizza in Taiwan or in London?
(41:25):
London for sure. Why?
Taiwan's not really known for its pizza.
OK, so. OK, but tell us about Taiwanese
food because Ryan and I, Ryan Governor and I have never been
and I want to know. Yeah, it's, it's look, it's,
it's definitely not one of thoseSoutheast Asian countries where
(41:47):
it's known for its food like a Thailand maybe whether, you
know, that's readily available at supermarkets.
What are they eating in Taiwan then?
I thought it was the same stuff.Incredible.
Chinese food. Yeah, this is me.
This is me being completely ignorant.
What are they eating? I'd say.
There's a there's a lot of delicious food like, you know,
the, the dumplings and dim sums.OK.
(42:11):
So yeah, there's there's a lot of that and it's delicious.
I heard the sausages are sweet. Yes, I I do remember having
brides in in Taiwan and there definitely were some sweet
sausages. There all right, Ryan, Governor.
Oh, what would I choose? Jeez, that's a good question.
(42:33):
London or Taiwan? I'm tempted to say Taiwan just
for the sake of saying I've eaten Taiwanese pizza, but I,
but I, I think I would say London that the, the quality of
food in London is very good. The options are fantastic.
There's a lot of artisanal, veryspecialized, really good quality
ingredients, so I think you're probably going to get the best
(42:56):
pizza in London in comparison. Yeah, I'm agreeing.
I think that London gets such a bad rap for having terrible
food. And I have no idea where that
comes from because it's very similar to any other giant
international city in the world in that it has people from
everywhere. And having people from
everywhere means that it has food from everywhere.
It's an expensive city. So in order to keep your keep
(43:20):
paying your rent on your expensive estate restaurant,
you've got to be selling food. So it has to be good, yeah.
I don't know if it's going to sound like a rent, but I think
the whole thing is so many cultures globally, including
South Africa, When you consider what the native cultural foods
(43:40):
of those places are, they're obviously drawn from very long
periods of time in the past. Also the quality of ingredients,
the range of ingredients just wasn't very good.
So eating a boiled potato was like a five star experience 500
years ago, whereas now that's not necessarily the case.
(44:01):
So when people are saying, oh, British cuisine is terrible and
drip drab, that's not really true because you're comparing it
to food that was made that long ago and it's important to have
that kind of food now and still have delicious, cutting edge hot
cuisine which we have now, whichis a great thing to have.
(44:22):
All right. Would you rather go for a hike
in London or in Taiwan? These are two cities that are
not known for hiking at all. Yeah.
Taiwan for. Sure.
Wow. Managed to actually do a little
bit of like outdoor adventure inthe year of when we were in
Taiwan and, and yeah, Taiwan's actually, unfortunately I didn't
(44:46):
make it to the east, East Coast of Taiwan, but it's it's
actually known for the Scirocco Gorge, I think it is.
Really, I think of Taiwan as just like giant city.
So there's actually quite a bit of nature.
So the whole western side of of Taiwan is very industrial and
(45:06):
yeah, it's cities basically fromthe all the way down to the
South. But when you get down to the
South and you go around the other side, the whole eastern
part of Taiwan is incredible. So beautiful.
Mountains hikes, yeah. You've sold me.
I'm hiking in Taiwan. Yeah, I'm going to go hike in
(45:27):
Taiwan because Brock said so all.
Right. Next up, would you rather ask
for directions in London or in Taiwan?
This is interesting because yeah, you speak English, but
what's the the vibe going to be when you talk to someone
randomly on the street in each of these cities?
Yeah. Look, I would say, you know, at
(45:49):
the Taiwanese people are super helpful and they, they're
amazing. So it depends.
Yeah, I guess it depends on the person that you're asking.
You know, you could get some, some person in, in London that's
had a, a rough day and they really irritate and they don't
want to, you know, they, they treat you as a fool for, for
asking, you know, something thatyou can Google very easily.
(46:12):
But yeah, there's, but then there's also the, the language
barrier, right, in Taiwan. So it's, it's definitely going
to be easier asking someone in London.
But you know, you probably have a better experience in Taiwan.
Can I ask what is language like in Taiwan?
(46:34):
Are there lots of people who do speak English?
Are you able to function well enough in that place?
Yeah, they, it's a, it's a country that does definitely
focus on, on teaching English and, and getting people to learn
that as a language. It's not as I'd say, let's call
(46:57):
it tourist friendly and as Thailand or Vietnam or you know,
those sort of countries. So, yeah, but it's a they're
getting there, I would say in terms of learning English and.
I know we're on the did you rather, but can I ask a
question? What do you think about the idea
(47:20):
of being an expat in Taiwan, staying there for an extended
period of time? Do you think that it's something
that's possible? Do you think that you would
suggest it to anyone? Yeah, I think there's people
that were there for a few years before my brother and I arrived
for that year, and those people are still there.
So I think they, you know, they've set up life there and
(47:43):
they, they, you know, looks verymuch like it's.
You can do it. You can do it.
Yeah. That's cool.
That's cool. Next one, Lizzie.
All right. Would you rather visit for a
long weekend in London or in Taiwan, assuming you don't live
in either one? Yeah, I would say London.
(48:03):
Actually my first experience of London was before we moved over
here and that was literally a long weekend.
Won a competition to come watch the the Springboks play against
England. What?
Congratulations. Yeah, I didn't want it.
It was it was Dawn that won it through Samsung.
So thank you, Samsung. We're not sponsored, by the way.
(48:25):
But yeah, it was that was essentially a long weekend and
yeah, I think you can do a lot in London over the space of
three or four days. I would agree.
And you, Liz, I think, I think London's got so many things to
do, so many places to visit. I think it's a it's a great
(48:45):
place to be. I'm choosing Taiwan because I've
never been there. Wow.
How could I not? OK, Yeah.
OK, OK. All right.
Would you rather do a road trip in London or in Taiwan?
Taiwan, I would do that. We, we were actually lucky
enough to do Rd. trips, a few Rd. trips in Taiwan, all on our
scooters. And so that was a lot of fun.
(49:07):
So we had travelled down the coastline, head to well known
beach on the sort of southern border of Taiwan.
And yeah, it was just an awesomeexperience.
And so, yeah, I'd rather get on my scooter and, you know, ride
in our our scooter gang down thecoastline.
(49:29):
So yeah, I'll choose that one. That's actually a good point
though though is because aren't we comparing a city to a whole
country? Yeah.
So I think a road trip through Taiwan, being able to experience
the full nation, there's going to be, I think, a lot more
interesting and exciting, especially for the fact that I
haven't been there. And I would love to see what
(49:50):
it's like for sure. But I guess we're also comparing
it to like the Greater London area, right?
So. London is big.
And I think I'm choosing London here because I feel like the
smaller places outside of Londonare really interesting and I
know nothing about them. And I feel like just on this
(50:11):
trip, we're staying in a smallerplace outside side of the center
of London. And it just feels completely
different from the center of London.
And it's something that I never would have seen if I, when I fly
in, see a place and then fly out.
You never go to these small places.
So having a road trip means thatyou actually see the small
places, which I think is really quite cool here.
(50:33):
I think it really is an important thing to explore this
place, London to a fuller extent, because I think there's
this natural, I don't know, tendency to go and stand next to
Big Ben for your entire trip andsee all of those shops and do
the tourist circuit. And I think if it's your first
time coming here and you want tosee those those sites, I think
(50:54):
it's a good thing to be doing. But I do think that there's so
much more to this country and this place which a lot of people
don't get to experience. And I think we're doing it for
the first time now. Yeah, exciting.
Last question, I think I know your answer because you've
already done it, but would you rather buy a house in London or
in Taiwan? Yeah, London, although I will
(51:16):
say it is a frustrating process.Yeah, not to go down a whole
rabbit hole here of property buying in the UK, but it is,
it's really tough and it's a lengthy, super lengthy process
and it's dependent on so many other people.
What's the basic rundown of it in case any of our listeners are
(51:38):
considering buying property in London?
I think the the the strangest thing I'd say is the fact that a
lot of it you, you enter a chainessentially.
So if we wanted to buy a house, we would need to put this house
on the market. We'd have to have an offer on
(52:01):
our house before we could even explore putting an offer on
another person's house. So the chain can be as short as
there is a first time buyer, they want to buy a house and we
are buying from someone that's moving and stopping the chain.
Or it could extend as far as well, they're going to buy
(52:22):
another house and those people then have to buy another and it
can go on for quite a bit. So the timing of that must be
really difficult because they need to find a house at the
exact time that you're looking to buy their house, and then you
need to find a house at the exact time that someone else is
looking to buy. That sounds like a lot.
And all the deals need to work out for that chain to to move
(52:44):
forward. Yeah.
And, and lucky we, we haven't experienced this, but we've had
friends that have is the deal can fall apart almost up until
the point where you get that your key, that the keys.
Yeah. And so it's, it's not a it's not
a fun process because you have your, you know, mindset on
(53:09):
moving into this house. You love it offers being
accepted, but something can go wrong in the chain above the
people that you're buying from, for example.
And then suddenly they say, well, that's not worked out for
us. We're not selling the house
anymore. And there goes your opportunity
to move. So wow, we yeah, moving into the
our current home. It was just under your in terms
(53:34):
of length of process. We had an offer on our house
quite quickly, but then the the to look for a house on from our
side. We must have seen anywhere
between 10 and 15 houses put on,put some offers on places they
weren't accepted because it almost goes to like a bidding
(53:55):
wall. So yeah, it's a.
It's a long and frustrating process.
Ryan Brock has convinced me to hike in Taiwan and not buy house
in London. Yep, we will.
We will. We will stick with the safe
options I think for sure. Anything else you want to say
before we go? Guys, no, it's just thank you
for having me. It's been a pleasure just to
(54:17):
chat about, you know, what life's been like since moving
away from South Africa. So yeah, thank.
You fantastic. Thanks so much for joining us,
Paul. But yeah, that was our chat with
Ryan Brock this week. I hope you guys enjoyed it,
exploring the movement from Taiwan to South Africa to the
(54:37):
UK. Very interesting.
And if you guys have got anything interesting to share,
anything that you feel, anythingthat you noticed, any
observations, we'd love to hear it.
We're always interested to hear other people's experiences in
these situations. And it is so exciting and it is
so interesting, you know, and soif you want to contact us,
(54:59):
please reach out. We're on Instagram at Expats
Listen or you can send us an e-mail on
expatslisten@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you.
And until next week, have a goodday.
Bye bye.
Welcome to X Facts Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, the struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz. So Ryan, tell us, how is your
week going? Oh, it is a busy, busy week.
We're doing a lot of travelling,We're seeing a lot of Europe and
(00:20):
we had the exciting opportunity to go across the English Channel
on the Channel. And it was really a really
interesting experience sitting with Henry on my lap, being on a
train in a tunnel underwater andthen arriving in England and
then driving on the other side of the road.
Really fun experience. And you, Liz?
(00:41):
Yeah, it was super cool. Henry's first real overseas
adventure. So our dog has now travelled
more than a lot of our friends and family have.
But I think it's really great and we're happy to be here in
the UK at the moment. And today we actually have our
first ever interview on the Expats Listen podcast.
(01:01):
We're really mixing things up because we have a South African
named Ryan, but he is a different person than Arcolas
Ryan and every ex pet has their own story.
So let's dive in. First things first, Ryan,
welcome. What's your name and where are
you from and where do you live now?
Thank you guys, Jeepers. Yeah, what an honor.
(01:23):
Second, second Ryan on the podcast.
So yeah. My name's Ryan Brock, originally
from South Africa, born and raised in the Eastern Cape of
South Africa. So yeah, it was born in Port
Elizabeth, then moved to small town Grandstown, went to school
there for a bit and then high school in East London, and then
(01:48):
went back to university in Grandstown.
So it kept the door within a radius of probably like 300
kilometers. And yeah, now I find myself
living in the UK, in London withmy family.
When you were young, did you know a lot of people who lived
in other countries? Was travel a big part of your
(02:11):
life or what? What were your kind of
experiences of life outside of South Africa?
Yeah, very, very minimal, to be honest with you.
Like one of our holidays were pretty, pretty local.
We were really blessed to, you know, have the beach and the
coastline within, you know, 45 minute drive from where majority
(02:37):
of mine sort of younger years were.
And then, you know, later years moved to East London where we
were obviously at the coast, which was amazing.
And then travel was very, very limited in terms of
international travel. First trip overseas was really
just across the border to Botswana and that was, I mean,
(03:01):
when I was 1314 years old and then was lucky enough to go on a
school music to also at the sameage.
And that was my first exposure to, to international travel.
But as far as like internationalfriends and all of that or
people that I knew were travelling internationally, it
(03:21):
was probably all pretty much thesame.
Everyone sort of did their holidays locally, you know, the
game parks and things like that in South Africa, travelling to
the mountains and the Drakensburg.
So yeah, that's pretty much the extent of my travel in the
younger years. Yeah, so Ryan's obviously from
the same area that I'm from. We grew up together in the same
(03:45):
local area in South Africa, and international travel just wasn't
a big thing for people back then.
It's a small place. It's pretty rural at times and
the small cities are quite small.
We have everything that we need,but not really glorifying
adventure and long distance travel and learning new things,
(04:05):
and it wasn't really put on our table as being something that we
could necessarily achieve. I think we always knew that we
could have done it, but no one was pushing us to make that
move, which I thought was interesting when we think about
it because so many people come from small places where
international travel isn't encouraged and it isn't
(04:26):
glorified to a sense of creatingsome level of aspiration and
ambition in young people to go and achieve that.
And I think for us, it was getting to the age and to the
point where we had enough exposure from people outside of
our local community who had goneout and experienced all of these
new things and told us about it.And we've heard about it and
(04:46):
even just media. And that gave us the what's the
word, the interest in actually discovering all of that.
And I think a lot of people fromsmall towns go through stuff
like that. Would you say that that trip
that you took for the music tourkind of sparked something in you
that made you want to travel more, or did it make you ask a
(05:09):
lot more questions? Or how did you feel when you
went really overseas, like not just to the neighboring country,
but quite far? And can you tell us a bit about
that trip? Yeah, no, it was, it was super
exciting, like it was, I remember, you know, it was when
I was 1314 years old and it was only two weeks in total length.
(05:32):
But it felt like we, we saw and did a lot in that time.
We managed to do three countriesin that time.
The majority of the time was in Austria because we went there
for that competition was, was hosted there, did a bit of
travelling around Austria itself.
And then we also did some time travelling in Germany and in
(05:55):
Hungary. And yeah, it was, it was
fascinating. Like obviously being a young
teenager, first, first travel. It was, I distinctly remember
being fascinated by the breakfasts because I, you know,
growing up in South Africa, it was, yeah, you'd have your
cereal for breakfast before school and, and that was it.
(06:17):
And then, you know, maybe on theweekends you'd do a bit of a fry
or something like that. But there it was, you know,
suddenly this continental breakfast where I was getting
served rolls and cheese and it was the breakfast and I, I just
and, and cold meats. What is this?
Yeah, it was like, surely not this.
This can't be a breakfast. Why are you people eating like
(06:40):
this? Yeah, yeah.
And so, yeah, that was, it's just a memory that's completely
stuck with me that, you know, why are these people in Germany,
Austria, Hungary? Because it was all the same
right In in all three of those countries.
Very similar culture wise. But yeah, their breakfasts just
blew me away. So I must say I did enjoy going
(07:01):
back back home to South Africa and you know, then being able to
go and have my cornflakes or cocoa pops.
It is really interesting the things that stand out to you
when you do experience a new culture for the first time
because it's not always the cultural aspects and elements
that you might see on Instagram videos or travel guides.
Sometimes it's just like the thethe color of a certain sign is
(07:25):
different to where you're from or something smells different
and it creates such a big part of being, wow, I'm in a new
place and this is super interesting.
It's true. My first trip abroad was to
London when I was around the same age, around 12:13.
And the thing that I remember most from that trip is that in
(07:46):
the taxis you got to sit backwards.
And I thought that was the coolest thing in the whole
world. And we were there because my dad
was working in London for the summer.
So we actually went for the whole summer.
And the taxis were incredible. And then the soda machine, if my
dad's office, you could get any soda you wanted.
And this was like the days before this Coke, Freestyle
(08:08):
machines. So my biggest memories of
international travel from my first trip were sitting
backwards in the taxi and drinking a lot of soda.
Yeah, there. You go like it's just the things
that you remember, but like talking about the the, the soft
drinks and things like that. I remember the Fanta being
absolutely terrible. Really.
What didn't you like about the Fanta?
(08:30):
It just didn't taste like Fanta.Like, I mean, obviously in South
Africa you get your Coca Colas and you get your fences and.
Do you remember what it tasted like?
It it tasted less orange. Like less orange.
I would probably less faith you probably had the like sugarier
Fanta. Exactly.
Yeah, I reckon that one in SouthAfrica is obviously not,
(08:50):
probably not the most original 1and it probably had more sugar.
Well I'm glad that you brought this up because Fanta for me is
something that sticks out between the two different
countries. The Fanta in South Africa is
really just orange flavored syrup and fizzy water, whereas I
feel like the Fanta in Europe today is almost more fizzy
(09:11):
orange juice and I like that difference.
How do you feel about Fanta these days?
To be honest, don't drink much of it.
No, OK, OK. If I do get the chance and and
this is like obviously, you know, living, living abroad and
having the. You're not actually drinking a a
litre of fenter a day, but. Yeah.
But the the the one that I wouldopt for, I guess in terms of
(09:34):
like fizzy drink in the in that direction would be the the
French. Orange, Gina.
Orange. Yeah, because.
That is very much. Orange Orange Gina is the is the
OG is the king of orange sodas. Absolutely no for sure.
All right, well, so that was your childhood experiences.
(09:56):
Let's talk about now when you became an adult and started to
travel a bit more. So what was your first time that
you actually moved abroad and how did you make that decision
to go abroad for that first time?
Yeah. So that was so, you know, Fast
forward through school, university and then straight
(10:16):
into working life. Sort of got to a point where I
didn't do any international travel or have a gap year, so to
speak. Got to a point where I wanted to
go and do some traveling and oneof our best friends from school
and university days. Also Orion.
(10:37):
Everyone, they're friends with his name Ryan.
Yeah, it's exclusive plan. He him and his wife were out in
Taiwan at the time. And so we were obviously staying
in touch. And you know, I had this sort of
urge to go and travel and explore and just sort of have a
break from working life as, as Iknew it in in my 20s and went to
(11:00):
Taiwan for a year and lived there.
I managed to convince my brotherwho was, he's six years younger
than me, but he was finishing uphis studies in the States.
And I said to him, hey, let's you know what, what do you think
about going to Taiwan for a yearand, and travelling and teaching
And he was all on board for it. So yeah, we had a an awesome gap
(11:23):
year in Taiwan. Do you feel like it was easier
to make the decision to go therebecause your brother was going
with you? Yeah, I think there was
definitely some comfort in in the fact that he was there and
then also one of our best friends was there too.
So it's it came with definitely a soft landing when we first got
(11:45):
there because he had already figured all those things out.
He, him and his wife had alreadysaid being there for a year or
two at the time. And so they knew, hey, this is
what you need to do to get, you know, transport or scooter or
things like that. This is the way that you would
be able to go and get an apartment.
So, yeah, we were very lucky in that sense that a lot of that
(12:10):
parts to figuring life out at a new country.
We had a head start with them. Do you feel like you gained some
confidence in that trip, having that guidance to explore and to
have all the basics covered? Was that confidence inspiring,
would you say? Yeah, definitely.
I think they, whilst there was abit of a soft landing, so to
(12:32):
speak, there was a lot of stuff that we obviously still had to
figure out ourselves and going for a trip over the weekend.
You, you have to figure out likeI need to get this train, I need
to get this information, etcetera.
So yeah, I definitely think there was a, you know,
confidence that was gained through through those travels.
(12:54):
And then you came back from Taiwan and you had a long
distance girlfriend throughout that time in Taiwan.
You came back and you reunited with her in South Africa.
And then what happened? Yeah.
So I think going back to the theyear in Taiwan dorm came over
and visited, which was great. So we did a little bit of travel
(13:17):
in Taiwan itself, but then we also booked a trip to Vietnam
and that was amazing. So got to see a bit of Southeast
Asia that way and travelled around Vietnam.
And then, yeah, came back in in 2016 and we set up in
Johannesburg. We were living good lives.
We had all our old friends that we had obviously made from the
(13:38):
previous years. And then an opportunity came up
for Doran. She saw a job posting that came
up for a position based in in London.
And she said to me jokingly, oh this, this would be a dream job,
that there's no chance that I'llget it.
And that I said, you know, go for it.
(14:00):
And she did. And she managed to go through
the 1st 2 rounds of interviews, which were all obviously online
or Zoom, Zoom calls at the time.And then she got through to the
essentially the final round where the CEO of the company was
his sister had a holiday house in Pettenburg Bay, which is in
(14:21):
the Eastern Cape and invited herto an interview there.
And so we were, at the time, my parents were living in Port
Elizabeth. So we took the day to drive
through to plates and she had the interview.
I still remember going to Shell Garage having a coffee day while
she was having this interview. And yeah, she got back into the
(14:44):
car and she was like, they've offered me the job, they want me
to come to London. So that was obviously super
exciting and, and quite a shock,I guess.
I mean, we would obviously just on a family holiday.
And now suddenly it was like, hey, are we moving to do we need
to move to London soon? So you were sitting in a Shell
(15:05):
garage drinking a cup of coffee,having no idea that your entire
life was going to change in a few minutes.
Yeah, I think, I mean, obviouslywe had a very good feeling about
it considering it was the CEO himself inviting her, which he
was obviously on holiday. So it obviously meant quite a
(15:27):
bit. So we did have a good feeling.
But yeah, I mean, then suddenly the drive home back to PE was,
hey, what? How are we going to, you know,
we need to take this opportunity.
How are we going to break the news to the family And, you
know, are we definitely going todo this?
So yeah. So did you have a conversation
(15:48):
before she did the interview saying if she got the job, you
guys were going to move to London?
Or was it an automatic acceptance of the fact that you
were going to now move to the UKas soon as she got that job
after that call? Yeah, I think, I think we said
to each other like, hey, if thisis successful, we need to do it.
(16:10):
For sure. OK.
So it wasn't once she got back into the car, it wasn't like we
were debating. It was more of a case of how do
we break the news to everyone and that case.
Actually happened, so you knew it was going to happen as soon
as it as soon as she got the yes.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like it was just an opportunity
(16:31):
that we saw that was going to open us up to so much more
trouble. And and that's how how we saw it
at the time. So when she got back in the car
and now you're like, OK, this ishappening, we're moving to
London. Did you talk about a timeline?
Did you think we're going to stay for a few years?
(16:52):
Did you think we're going to stay for a specific amount of
time or did you think that it would be forever?
Yeah. I mean, we definitely didn't
think any like too much detail into the timeline right then.
I, I know for a fact we, we definitely weren't saying
forever and it wasn't going to be this permanent move.
(17:15):
It was the way that we were saying is, OK, let's go over for
a few years. Obviously in, in the back of our
minds, there's always the, if you stay in a place long enough,
you, there's the opportunity to become a citizen.
But that was never ever even a like an, the, the reason that
say for, for the opportunity to move at the time, I think we
(17:40):
probably thought maybe two to five years was going to be the
timeline that we would come overbecause we whilst the, the job
opportunity was there. I don't think we, you know, I
think we were quite realistic with ourselves to be like, well,
what happens if we're not enjoying it and we want to move
(18:01):
back? And so I think we put the sort
of safety number of like, let's go for two to five years.
Obviously can't just go for one year.
That's not going to be worth it.Like, you know, renting a house,
buying furniture, sure, but alsodidn't want to commit to like,
oh, this is going to be a decadenow that we are.
(18:22):
So spoiler, how long have you been here now?
Yeah. So now we have been here for 8
1/2 years, so. Yeah, not what you expected.
No, no, I think you know what? Like it's obviously sounds
cliche, but life happens. And so we obviously moved over
here, rented a house, and then there was obviously a couple of
(18:46):
years and then COVID hits and that happened.
So, yeah, then at the same time we had our first child and also
during the COVID time and then we made the choice to buy a
house as well. And so it's just kind of like
snowballed from there. And now we're in our 2nd, 2nd
house that we've we've bought and we've had a second child as
(19:08):
well. So life is, is very much full on
like moving ahead and and yeah, eight, 8 1/2 years now.
So if you were to be asked abouttimeline today, how long do you
think you'll stay? Great question.
I think we've already started tosay that we want to move back
(19:29):
like that. That's definitely a conversation
we have quite a few times and it's, I almost envy the people
that say no, this is for life, we're going to be here because
then you have that certainty. But we obviously with small kids
and with grandparents back in South Africa and family, rest of
the family, we're super conscious that we want our kids
(19:53):
and families to obviously spend time with each other.
And so it's tough. Like we, we try and go back at
least once a year. And yeah, I think the timeline
that we set ourselves now is go,we're going to move back in the
next 5 years. But there's a lot to figure,
figure out and a lot to considerbecause we have kids now,
(20:14):
they're going to school. What does that look like then?
What is the impact on them? And.
You know, starting new friendship groups, not only for
them, which is probably going tobe a little bit easier because
of school, but then for us as well.
And where do we go back in SouthAfrica as well.
You know, we've got family in two different hubs of, of South
(20:36):
Africa. So that's also quite a thing to
figure out. So if you were to go back, where
would you go? I think without travels back
home. I think he's starting to make
decisions without his wife here.Dawn.
Dawn is. Fully aware of.
The frozen font. List that we've got for both I
think in an ideal world, Cape Town is is very much up there
(21:01):
but then we've obviously got theother let's say half of the
family in the in eastern South Africa and so and I love Sharks
rugby, although they're playing terribly at the moment.
It would be cool to go on the weekends and watch this this.
Is how we make major life decisions, yeah.
Yeah. And it's more more today
(21:23):
compared to Cape Town, right. So yeah, I think probably first
on the list would be Cape Town and then maybe Durban a close
second. But I, I know for a fact that
and Dawn and I are 100% aligned with this, that we wouldn't go
back to living our old lives, soto speak, in Johannesburg.
We just don't see that as as where we'd want to settle again.
(21:47):
So what are the things that you love about living in in London?
There's a lot. I mean, I think the the ability
and and this goes back to the kind of original reason we
jumped at the opportunity is theaccess to the rest of the world
essentially, but especially Europe.
(22:07):
So we've been lucky enough pre kids to do quite a lot of travel
into Europe, the likes of Spain,France, Portugal, Italy, and
then you know, further further than that as well.
So I think that's probably one of the biggest reasons there's,
it's a very easy life in, in some regards, like it being a
(22:32):
first world country versus technically the third world
country that South Africa is I guess is a big convenience
factor there. You know, the fact that you, I
guess Amazon's everywhere not, but you know it, it works
perfectly. I can have something delivered
tomorrow there. There's a convenience factor to
(22:54):
it too. There's a safety element to it
too. I guess.
You know, it's, it's no secret that South Africa has some
issues in that regard. And I think it's it's nice to
know that as a family we can walk down the streets to the
shops and not necessarily have to go in the car.
Yeah. But that's that's not that's
(23:16):
definitely down the list in terms of the reasons why we live
in London at the moment. And what about work?
Because that was the original reason that you came here,
right? It was for your partner's job.
So do you feel like the work opportunities are easier in in
London or do you feel as though it was just a once in a
(23:38):
lifetime? This job is going to be amazing
and then you had to find a job to make it work here.
How was your experience finding work in London compared to in
South Africa? Coming back from Taiwan, I did
struggled because but that thosestruggles came as a result of me
changing direction in my career.I was in like sports
(24:01):
rehabilitation to begin with, then went over and did the
teaching and I wanted to move away from the sports rehab side
of things. So I wanted to move into sports
sponsorship, marketing, that sort of thing.
And it was a struggle. But that was based on the fact
that you needed the experience. But I didn't have the
experience, but I, yeah, so there was that aspect of it.
(24:24):
And so it was a struggle that I eventually got an opportunity in
SA and it was, it was great and going well.
Then moving over to the UK, we moved over Dawn had her job
which was great. And then I obviously started
applying for roles once we got here, as much as I tried from
(24:44):
South Africa when I knew that wewere moving, which was in a
space of like 2 to three months.That is quick.
So it's just two months between getting the offer and actually
coming here. Exactly.
Yeah, So Dawn. Dawn came over in the beginning
of March and I followed like a week or two later.
I had a family wedding to attend.
So yeah, it was super quick, 2 1/2, three months from the
(25:07):
actual offer. And then I, yeah, I kind of
struggled, I guess to find a role.
Again, limited experience, although I had that year of
working in sports sponsorship inSouth Africa, it was limited and
I wasn't getting having much luck finding something.
And then as a lot of times happen, you have a friend of a
(25:31):
friend who knows someone and managed to get into a job that
was kind of in sports, but sports and education and did
that for a couple of months, wasn't very excited about it.
It wasn't definitely not a long term thing.
(25:51):
And then got the opportunity to move into my current business,
which, yeah, the right place at the right time, I guess.
So was, I would say there are quite a lot more opportunities
for that at the time in London. But it's interesting that you
say it was through friends of a friend and like, you knew
someone, so did you actually have a community of people here?
(26:14):
So when you had moved to Taiwan,you had this soft landing
because you had friends there and you already had a bit of an
easier path. Did you have that same thing
here in London? Yeah, we definitely did so,
although this time around obviously moving to an English
speaking country, being the UK, that was obviously a lot easier.
(26:35):
But we had some friends that were already here through school
days that that we linked up withquite quickly through
Johannesburg days as well when so some friends that already
moved over. So it was, it was an easy way to
again transition and build up a friendship group through those
(26:59):
those friends that you had already, right?
Yeah, it's just stark contrast to Ryan Govinder here, who moved
to Portugal knowing absolutely no one.
Yeah, it is. It's a major transition to go
through and I think depending onwhere you're going, there is a
certain level of a head start that's available for different
people. So I think the UK is definitely
(27:22):
a great place to move if you're a South African and you're
looking for a readily available community.
You know, you've got a better chance of plugging into a South
African community which you can use as a base to move on to
friendships with people from other countries and certainly
local British people. I think another good place for
that is Australia. So there are a lot of South
(27:43):
Africans who are in Australia and are able to actually
consider themselves a reasonablecommunity for you to have a base
to work from. Moving to Portugal, there are
more and more S Africans, but I think that when we moved it was
really a bit tough because it was starting from scratch,
making new friendships with anyone who was open and willing
(28:07):
to be a friend really. And I think that added to the
complexity and the difficulty ofit, if I'm honest.
I think when we come to visit Ryan here in the UK, which I try
to do a couple of times a year, it's really interesting because
of the number of people I get toreconnect with, aside from Ryan,
who were part of my life back then, those days too.
(28:28):
And it then becomes a really attractive proposition for me to
visit because I feel it's almosthomely in a certain way, as
opposed to, I think when they come to visit in Portugal, we
are a big contact point to exploring a world that sometimes
neither of us know about, you know?
So it really is an interesting thing.
(28:49):
I think it makes such a big difference moving to a country
where there's a pre established community of people who you know
are at least slightly similar towho you are.
Yeah, and even more to that extreme of people who you
actually know, because I moved to Australia, there's a lot of
Americans who live in Australia,but I didn't personally know
anyone. So that soft landing wasn't
(29:12):
quite the same as, oh, this person who went to the same
school as me, or this person whoI knew from this thing.
Interesting. Can I, can I ask an interesting
question? I think it's an interesting
question. Do you think that it depends on
the definition of community for those people?
Because I'll, I'll go out on a limb here and I'll say this, S
(29:33):
Africans need community. It's a big part of how we
operate. We need each other.
Ubuntu. Ubuntu, do you feel as though
Americans share the same connectedness?
No, I think that Americans are super selfish.
I think that we really care about ourselves and I don't
think that we have this warm embrace for other people the way
(29:58):
that S Africans do. My experience of, of the
difference between these two cultures is, is quite a stark
contrast in that I have friends and family who I love and would
do anything for. And when people come to visit, I
am thrilled that they're visiting me.
And I definitely welcome them with open arms.
And I'm so happy to have them. And I have visited friends in
(30:21):
other places and they're so happy to have me.
And it's, it's great. But it's not the same thing of
the third Ryan giving you this list of here's everything you
need to know about living in Taiwan.
Here's how to get an apartment. Here's how to get this, here's
how to get that. Like here is your handbook on
how to live in this country. I've, I've lived in so many
(30:43):
places and I've never had that. I went to live with my very best
friend in the world in Kenya. And he definitely helped me
through all of these things. He helped me get the apartment.
He helped, but he did it well for me.
It wasn't here's how you do thisthing.
It was, oh, you're coming here, so I'll just do this for you.
(31:05):
And then I never learned and I could never pass that knowledge
on to anyone else. And it was amazing that it was
basically done for me. It was very, very easy for me to
move to Kenya. But it was just him and I, It
wasn't a community of people that we knew.
And, and I of course, became friends with all of his friends
who are still close friends of mine today.
(31:27):
But there's something different about the way that S Africans
bring people in of oh, you know,that auntie who went to school
with my auntie and then my cousin knew you from that
primary school dance. So yes, come here today and I
know I'm going to hook you up. I feel like that like 6° of
(31:51):
separation thing happens all thetime in South African
communities. Am I wrong or do you what do you
think? No, you're 100% right.
And I think it's this is gonna maybe sound a little bit funny,
but in terms of South Africans, what's deeply rooted in our
culture and what we enjoy doing is the the bride, right?
(32:15):
And then and this is what we do for fun.
What is a bride? A BBQ, right?
So you know it's. It's so much more than a BBQ,
right? It really is.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, In entry into
anyone's brides, you bring a packet of Simba crisps and so
many people come over to that. It's not just, hey, we're just
doing it with our family. It's so and so's neighbor is
(32:39):
coming as well. You know, so and so's friend.
And it goes to your point about,well, this auntie is got this
family member in town and this friend is also.
And that's, you know, how we sort of bring everyone together,
I guess. Yeah, There's always going to be
some reference point which we use for commonality.
We have something in common. We've experienced something
(33:01):
similar. We're from a similar place.
We've seen something that you'veseen.
We know someone who you know, and it's such an important
thing. There's a small business called
A Taste of Southern Africa, which is in Portugal and it's
just outside of Porto. And it's being run by two people
(33:22):
who grew up in my old community in Merebank, Durban.
And I found them through Liz on Instagram and made contact with
them and started having a chat and discovered that they stayed
very close to where my grandmother's house used to be.
And now we're friends. And we've already committed to
(33:44):
hanging out at some point as soon as we're back in Portugal
because we share something that overlaps us and it's important.
And we need to meet each other so that we know that we're here
together. And it's an amazing thing to
have a connection with someone who I haven't even met yet
(34:04):
because of what we shared in thepast.
And I think you're very lucky. I think you're very privileged
to have moved to a place where those kinds of relationships are
available and ready for you. Even if you didn't know the
people that you know, you know that the people here of many of
them know a lot about your life without even ever having had the
(34:26):
conversation, which is an amazing thing.
And I think that's something to be said about South Africa as a
country as well, that it is smaller and compared to the US
And I think it is more intimate that you have so many of these
experiences that are the same. I feel like my life growing up
in New York compared to someone's life growing up in
(34:48):
Mississippi, we have so little in common.
And to come over and be like, oh, do you remember this?
Do you remember that? I probably don't, and they
probably don't remember the things that I remember.
But I feel like in South Africa,you guys really do have so many
of these Common Core experiences.
(35:09):
Like you follow these Facebook and Instagram pages with like
pictures of those gummy candies that you used to eat as kids and
you send them to each other. You're a little friend group and
you all resonate so deeply with those same things.
Yeah, man, that's true. Like one of the things that I
mean, just going on a bit of a tangent care about the US it it
(35:32):
almost feels like each state is like its own country, right?
And so you could probably relateto other people from New York a
lot more and you would from, youknow, someone that's in Texas.
Completely. Completely.
But that's something that happens a lot.
If you ever meet Liz and you askher where are you from, she's
probably not going to say the United States.
(35:53):
She's going to say New York. Always.
I, I, the number of times that I've said I'm from the United
States, I could count on like one hand.
I where are you from? Ryan's from South Africa.
I'm from New York. Those are.
That's the answer. I think that cultural identity
is that strong. Yeah.
Yeah, I think so too. I think it's also a bit of a
(36:14):
point of pride. I, I love my city, I love New
York. I think that New York is an
incredible place, and I'd way rather answer questions about
New York than answer questions about American politics.
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
OK, let's get back on track. So how different was your move
(36:38):
to London compared to your expectations?
So we're going back to you're atthis gas station, you're having
this coffee, your entire life changes in a few minutes, you've
got two months, you pack up everything.
And you've had lived abroad before, so you probably had some
expectations of what it was going to be like.
You also, like we said, had thisgroup of friends that you knew,
(37:00):
people who were already here. So how did it measure up?
What did you expect compared to what actually happened?
So one of the things and Dawn reminds me every single feels
like every single year about it,or at least every summer.
But you know, you sort of pack up one bag, 2223 KG bag of, you
(37:22):
know, the stuff that you're going to now build your life on
moving to a new country. And I packed one pair of shorts
because I thought it was always going to be cold and rainy and
Dawn always looks at me. And she's like, how?
Why did you decide that it was OK to move to London if you
thought it was going to be raining and and cold all the
time? So Needless to say, when the
(37:43):
summer came around, which is amazing when it's not raining,
of course I needed to go and buysome new shorts.
But. So the weather really surprised
you in a good way. Your expectations were that it
was going to be terrible basically every day.
Yeah, I think a lot of people say, oh, London's always grey.
It is grey a lot of the time. I think there's probably some
(38:03):
stats out there that say 280 days of the year or grey stars
or something. But the summer is amazing and I
don't think I expected that at all, so I didn't.
It was a pleasant surprise for sure.
Super long days, the fact that you can finish work and still do
all kinds of activities with thesun only going down like 9/30/10
(38:27):
at night. So yeah, that was, that was a
pleasant surprise. Yeah.
I, I think it's another thing that's really struck me moving
here is actually the amount, especially in London, I would
say is the amount of like mixed cultures.
And in in some ways it almost felt like Johannesburg, where
(38:53):
you've got everyone from different provinces or other
towns, they all come there as a as a place to obviously work and
make money. And it kind of feels the same
with London. Just with the world.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So a very black big mix of
cultures, nationalities. And so whilst obviously there's
(39:17):
a lot of British people and you,you obviously meet them at work
and you see them on the tube and, and transports and stuff
like that. They were, it was awesome to see
the the amount of other culturesand, and the mix that that
London has ready. So yeah, I think that was one of
(39:37):
the sort of biggest surprises orthings that I noticed.
All right. My last question, do you have
any advice for people who are looking to move abroad?
Wow, I think the best advice I can give is be as open minded as
you can be. And I think if you can it, it is
(39:58):
always nice to have people from your home country that you could
connect with and things like that.
But I think there's so much value to be gained with
exploring outside of that comfort zone and so.
It's something that over the last couple of years I think
(40:19):
Dawn and I have really enjoyed is meeting people outside of the
South African community that that we love to hang out with
obviously. But it's been really great and
fulfilling to have make friends that are British really, and
some friends that are from Scotland, some friends that are
(40:41):
from Wales and stuff like that. So yeah, I would say that whilst
it's always nice to have that comfort zone, that's probably
one of the best things that I would say is just get to know as
many people as you can really outside of that.
I think that's great advice. Are we ready to move on to Would
You rather? Oh, I'm excited to hear the
(41:02):
option. All right.
Well, would you rather is our segment where we ask questions
of would you rather do this in country A or country B?
But since we have Ryan Brock, who has lived in Taiwan and in
London, today we're going to choose between Taiwan and
London. OK, let's get started.
Would you rather eat a pizza in Taiwan or in London?
(41:25):
London for sure. Why?
Taiwan's not really known for its pizza.
OK, so. OK, but tell us about Taiwanese
food because Ryan and I, Ryan Governor and I have never been
and I want to know. Yeah, it's, it's look, it's,
it's definitely not one of thoseSoutheast Asian countries where
(41:47):
it's known for its food like a Thailand maybe whether, you
know, that's readily available at supermarkets.
What are they eating in Taiwan then?
I thought it was the same stuff.Incredible.
Chinese food. Yeah, this is me.
This is me being completely ignorant.
What are they eating? I'd say.
There's a there's a lot of delicious food like, you know,
the, the dumplings and dim sums.OK.
(42:11):
So yeah, there's there's a lot of that and it's delicious.
I heard the sausages are sweet. Yes, I I do remember having
brides in in Taiwan and there definitely were some sweet
sausages. There all right, Ryan, Governor.
Oh, what would I choose? Jeez, that's a good question.
(42:33):
London or Taiwan? I'm tempted to say Taiwan just
for the sake of saying I've eaten Taiwanese pizza, but I,
but I, I think I would say London that the, the quality of
food in London is very good. The options are fantastic.
There's a lot of artisanal, veryspecialized, really good quality
ingredients, so I think you're probably going to get the best
(42:56):
pizza in London in comparison. Yeah, I'm agreeing.
I think that London gets such a bad rap for having terrible
food. And I have no idea where that
comes from because it's very similar to any other giant
international city in the world in that it has people from
everywhere. And having people from
everywhere means that it has food from everywhere.
It's an expensive city. So in order to keep your keep
(43:20):
paying your rent on your expensive estate restaurant,
you've got to be selling food. So it has to be good, yeah.
I don't know if it's going to sound like a rent, but I think
the whole thing is so many cultures globally, including
South Africa, When you consider what the native cultural foods
(43:40):
of those places are, they're obviously drawn from very long
periods of time in the past. Also the quality of ingredients,
the range of ingredients just wasn't very good.
So eating a boiled potato was like a five star experience 500
years ago, whereas now that's not necessarily the case.
(44:01):
So when people are saying, oh, British cuisine is terrible and
drip drab, that's not really true because you're comparing it
to food that was made that long ago and it's important to have
that kind of food now and still have delicious, cutting edge hot
cuisine which we have now, whichis a great thing to have.
(44:22):
All right. Would you rather go for a hike
in London or in Taiwan? These are two cities that are
not known for hiking at all. Yeah.
Taiwan for. Sure.
Wow. Managed to actually do a little
bit of like outdoor adventure inthe year of when we were in
Taiwan and, and yeah, Taiwan's actually, unfortunately I didn't
(44:46):
make it to the east, East Coast of Taiwan, but it's it's
actually known for the Scirocco Gorge, I think it is.
Really, I think of Taiwan as just like giant city.
So there's actually quite a bit of nature.
So the whole western side of of Taiwan is very industrial and
(45:06):
yeah, it's cities basically fromthe all the way down to the
South. But when you get down to the
South and you go around the other side, the whole eastern
part of Taiwan is incredible. So beautiful.
Mountains hikes, yeah. You've sold me.
I'm hiking in Taiwan. Yeah, I'm going to go hike in
(45:27):
Taiwan because Brock said so all.
Right. Next up, would you rather ask
for directions in London or in Taiwan?
This is interesting because yeah, you speak English, but
what's the the vibe going to be when you talk to someone
randomly on the street in each of these cities?
Yeah. Look, I would say, you know, at
(45:49):
the Taiwanese people are super helpful and they, they're
amazing. So it depends.
Yeah, I guess it depends on the person that you're asking.
You know, you could get some, some person in, in London that's
had a, a rough day and they really irritate and they don't
want to, you know, they, they treat you as a fool for, for
asking, you know, something thatyou can Google very easily.
(46:12):
But yeah, there's, but then there's also the, the language
barrier, right, in Taiwan. So it's, it's definitely going
to be easier asking someone in London.
But you know, you probably have a better experience in Taiwan.
Can I ask what is language like in Taiwan?
(46:34):
Are there lots of people who do speak English?
Are you able to function well enough in that place?
Yeah, they, it's a, it's a country that does definitely
focus on, on teaching English and, and getting people to learn
that as a language. It's not as I'd say, let's call
(46:57):
it tourist friendly and as Thailand or Vietnam or you know,
those sort of countries. So, yeah, but it's a they're
getting there, I would say in terms of learning English and.
I know we're on the did you rather, but can I ask a
question? What do you think about the idea
(47:20):
of being an expat in Taiwan, staying there for an extended
period of time? Do you think that it's something
that's possible? Do you think that you would
suggest it to anyone? Yeah, I think there's people
that were there for a few years before my brother and I arrived
for that year, and those people are still there.
So I think they, you know, they've set up life there and
(47:43):
they, they, you know, looks verymuch like it's.
You can do it. You can do it.
Yeah. That's cool.
That's cool. Next one, Lizzie.
All right. Would you rather visit for a
long weekend in London or in Taiwan, assuming you don't live
in either one? Yeah, I would say London.
(48:03):
Actually my first experience of London was before we moved over
here and that was literally a long weekend.
Won a competition to come watch the the Springboks play against
England. What?
Congratulations. Yeah, I didn't want it.
It was it was Dawn that won it through Samsung.
So thank you, Samsung. We're not sponsored, by the way.
(48:25):
But yeah, it was that was essentially a long weekend and
yeah, I think you can do a lot in London over the space of
three or four days. I would agree.
And you, Liz, I think, I think London's got so many things to
do, so many places to visit. I think it's a it's a great
(48:45):
place to be. I'm choosing Taiwan because I've
never been there. Wow.
How could I not? OK, Yeah.
OK, OK. All right.
Would you rather do a road trip in London or in Taiwan?
Taiwan, I would do that. We, we were actually lucky
enough to do Rd. trips, a few Rd. trips in Taiwan, all on our
scooters. And so that was a lot of fun.
(49:07):
So we had travelled down the coastline, head to well known
beach on the sort of southern border of Taiwan.
And yeah, it was just an awesomeexperience.
And so, yeah, I'd rather get on my scooter and, you know, ride
in our our scooter gang down thecoastline.
(49:29):
So yeah, I'll choose that one. That's actually a good point
though though is because aren't we comparing a city to a whole
country? Yeah.
So I think a road trip through Taiwan, being able to experience
the full nation, there's going to be, I think, a lot more
interesting and exciting, especially for the fact that I
haven't been there. And I would love to see what
(49:50):
it's like for sure. But I guess we're also comparing
it to like the Greater London area, right?
So. London is big.
And I think I'm choosing London here because I feel like the
smaller places outside of Londonare really interesting and I
know nothing about them. And I feel like just on this
(50:11):
trip, we're staying in a smallerplace outside side of the center
of London. And it just feels completely
different from the center of London.
And it's something that I never would have seen if I, when I fly
in, see a place and then fly out.
You never go to these small places.
So having a road trip means thatyou actually see the small
places, which I think is really quite cool here.
(50:33):
I think it really is an important thing to explore this
place, London to a fuller extent, because I think there's
this natural, I don't know, tendency to go and stand next to
Big Ben for your entire trip andsee all of those shops and do
the tourist circuit. And I think if it's your first
time coming here and you want tosee those those sites, I think
(50:54):
it's a good thing to be doing. But I do think that there's so
much more to this country and this place which a lot of people
don't get to experience. And I think we're doing it for
the first time now. Yeah, exciting.
Last question, I think I know your answer because you've
already done it, but would you rather buy a house in London or
in Taiwan? Yeah, London, although I will
(51:16):
say it is a frustrating process.Yeah, not to go down a whole
rabbit hole here of property buying in the UK, but it is,
it's really tough and it's a lengthy, super lengthy process
and it's dependent on so many other people.
What's the basic rundown of it in case any of our listeners are
(51:38):
considering buying property in London?
I think the the the strangest thing I'd say is the fact that a
lot of it you, you enter a chainessentially.
So if we wanted to buy a house, we would need to put this house
on the market. We'd have to have an offer on
(52:01):
our house before we could even explore putting an offer on
another person's house. So the chain can be as short as
there is a first time buyer, they want to buy a house and we
are buying from someone that's moving and stopping the chain.
Or it could extend as far as well, they're going to buy
(52:22):
another house and those people then have to buy another and it
can go on for quite a bit. So the timing of that must be
really difficult because they need to find a house at the
exact time that you're looking to buy their house, and then you
need to find a house at the exact time that someone else is
looking to buy. That sounds like a lot.
And all the deals need to work out for that chain to to move
(52:44):
forward. Yeah.
And, and lucky we, we haven't experienced this, but we've had
friends that have is the deal can fall apart almost up until
the point where you get that your key, that the keys.
Yeah. And so it's, it's not a it's not
a fun process because you have your, you know, mindset on
(53:09):
moving into this house. You love it offers being
accepted, but something can go wrong in the chain above the
people that you're buying from, for example.
And then suddenly they say, well, that's not worked out for
us. We're not selling the house
anymore. And there goes your opportunity
to move. So wow, we yeah, moving into the
our current home. It was just under your in terms
(53:34):
of length of process. We had an offer on our house
quite quickly, but then the the to look for a house on from our
side. We must have seen anywhere
between 10 and 15 houses put on,put some offers on places they
weren't accepted because it almost goes to like a bidding
(53:55):
wall. So yeah, it's a.
It's a long and frustrating process.
Ryan Brock has convinced me to hike in Taiwan and not buy house
in London. Yep, we will.
We will. We will stick with the safe
options I think for sure. Anything else you want to say
before we go? Guys, no, it's just thank you
for having me. It's been a pleasure just to
(54:17):
chat about, you know, what life's been like since moving
away from South Africa. So yeah, thank.
You fantastic. Thanks so much for joining us,
Paul. But yeah, that was our chat with
Ryan Brock this week. I hope you guys enjoyed it,
exploring the movement from Taiwan to South Africa to the
(54:37):
UK. Very interesting.
And if you guys have got anything interesting to share,
anything that you feel, anythingthat you noticed, any
observations, we'd love to hear it.
We're always interested to hear other people's experiences in
these situations. And it is so exciting and it is
so interesting, you know, and soif you want to contact us,
(54:59):
please reach out. We're on Instagram at Expats
Listen or you can send us an e-mail on
expatslisten@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you.
And until next week, have a goodday.
Bye bye.
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