(Some of) Our biggest expat mistakes

Everybody makes mistakes, but sometimes when you move abroad, what you don't know can cost you dearly.

Ryan and Liz share some of the biggest expat mistakes they made, from paperwork errors that ended in tears, a job opportunity that turned into a scam, and lots more.

Listener Nina shares her expat mistake of trying to become a local and losing her identity along the way.

Learn from our mistakes so that you don't make them yourself! 😉

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Expats Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, the struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz Ryan. Tell me, how has your week been?
I've had a great week. We're out in Ireland and I'm
learning a lot about this new culture and seeing a lot of

(00:21):
green landscapes and beautiful oceans and spending a lot of
time in the rain but really really enjoying it.
Met some amazing Irish people, drank way too many Irish beers
and whiskeys but really great experience.
How's your week been? Yeah, loving it.
Been hiking a lot, which is always my happy place, and

(00:44):
really enjoying chilling a bit more.
I think on this road trip we hadbeen moving really quickly and
trying to get as much done as possible very quickly, and now
we're staying in each place for at least a week.
We're able to catch up better onwork.
I feel a bit more settled. So yeah, I think it's been a

(01:04):
good week. Nice, I'm glad.
What are we talking about this week?
So this week we are talking about our biggest ex pet
mistakes. And don't worry guys like I'm
sure that this is not comprehensive in any way shape
or form. There have been so many times
and so how many ways that we have messed up that we're just

(01:25):
not thinking of right now. But these are some of our expat
mistakes that we think are fun stories to share with you.
Because whenever something is really terrible in the moment,
it always turns into a funny story, doesn't it?
Well, I think these are the things that have had enough time
pass for us to consider them funny because I think at the

(01:46):
time, at the moment when we weredealing with this stuff, like
life was not good. So, you know, it's taken a lot
of time and energy and emotionalinvestment for us to turn this
into a funny story in life. But I'm glad we got there and
I'm looking forward to talking about them today for sure.
Amazing. Why don't we have you go first,

(02:06):
Ryan? So what is one of your biggest
expat mistakes? It was so stupid because I just
didn't think about it and it ended up creating so much of a
problem in my life. For years.
For years. So before I left South Africa to
move to Portugal, I didn't do any real research on how

(02:29):
driver's licenses work. So I didn't think about what I
needed to take to Portugal with me, what type of process I
needed to go through, what really needed to happen for me
to be a legal and licensed driver in Portugal.
And when you move to Portugal, one of the things that you need
to do is surrender your old driver's license, which needs to

(02:51):
be valid, and then swap it out to a Portuguese driver's
license, which would allow you to be legal in the country right
now. Unfortunately, because I'm an
idiot and didn't think about anything, my driver's license
from South Africa was actually due to expire.
Basically like a day before the cut off date was for me to

(03:14):
exchange my driver's license. So basically, I needed to get it
done on a specific day. And if I didn't get it done on
that day, I would have had to come back to South Africa, get a
brand new driver's license, get that created, generated and
received, and then brought that to Portugal, and then to go

(03:35):
through the whole process again.And even if I tried to do that,
at that stage, they were going through a whole lot of legal
changes, which would have actually meant that I would have
needed to have done my driver's license test again in Portuguese
in Portugal months after having arrived.
I would have had zero chance of ever actually having been a

(03:56):
legal driver in Portugal. So Long story short, we realized
that this is what's going to happen.
And we threw everything that we had into like basically one trip
to the IMT, which is the Portuguese license and vehicle
department. And we went there and we
explained the situation and we said, look, this is what we've

(04:18):
come to do. And in the great Portuguese
tradition, the first answer was no, you can't do it.
You'll have to come back tomorrow or the next day or
never again. We just don't feel like helping
you. Because like back up for a
second, because it wasn't just this one visit to the IMT.
First we needed to figure out what you needed in order to go

(04:39):
to the IMT. And there were so many visits to
so many. You didn't.
I didn't know I needed to share my full trauma on this whole
thing. So for you to go through with
this process, you need to be registered with the Portuguese
health system, which means that you need to get something called

(05:00):
an SNS number, which is basically your registration to
the public health system number.And in order for you to get that
number, and I kid you not, you need to go to your local clinic
or your local administration center, and you would need to
arrive there at like 7:30 on a specific day in the week, which

(05:22):
is never the same day, week after week.
You will need to sit there from 7:30 until 12:30.
No, until 4:00. Until 4:00 at 4:00 PM.
I'm trying to, I'm trying to make this better than it
actually was. You will need to sit there until
4:00 PM and at 4:00 PM, eight people get given ASNS number.

(05:47):
So only four people once a week get generated numbers for them
to be a part of the Portuguese health system.
And it was so crazy because the security guard there is the one
who told us all of this. We didn't even, it wasn't
written anywhere. It wasn't like anyone who
actually was supposed to be giving these numbers out had

(06:08):
information on how to get one. It was the security guard who
was like, here's the deal. You need to be here that
Tuesday, 7:30 AM, and you need to wait until 4:00 PM.
And that's just how it is. And we asked, do you remember?
We were like, can we come at 7:30 AM and then leave and come
back? And he was like, no, no, no, if
you leave, you've surrendered your number in line.

(06:30):
So you have to just sit here andsay bring a.
Book, bring a bring a book, bring snacks.
Yeah, bring something to do. And it was so amazing because it
wasn't even something that anyone there thought was
strange. Everyone just believed that yes,
this is quite a natural process to follow for you to get this

(06:52):
SNS number. And the SNS number was a very
big thing to get because you need it to access any kind of
public health service for all ofthe time that you're in
Portugal. So, and it's not just for
driver's licenses, it's if you get sick, if you need any kind
of medical attention at all, youneed that number.
So we needed to get that. And the reason why we needed to

(07:14):
get that was because of item number 37 on the what do you,
what do you call this? The treasure hunt for getting a
driver's license is that you need to get examined by a
licensed GP or doctor, which youcan obviously only go and get if

(07:34):
you've got that SNS number. So we got the SNS number.
We got the SNS number. After waiting the full day and
fighting to get that number, it was given to us.
We were very grateful. We went home in the dark and
looked at our SNS numbers with great pride, and then we went to
a very specific doctor that was supposed to be the guy who we

(07:59):
needed to see for this particular request.
We went to go see that man. He was a wonderful guy.
We actually got along very well.He actually was really cool.
Really nice guy. I mean, it's been so many years
and I still remember him being areally nice guy.
And yeah, he tested my eyes. He made sure that I wasn't
suffering from any real psychosis or anything like that

(08:21):
so that I could commandeer a vehicle.
And he gave me the all clear andthat was actually the first
thing that was ever put on my health profile in Portugal.
Then we got that sorted out. Then we needed to now go back to
the IMT to ask them to give me my new driver's license.

(08:42):
And when we went there again, the 1st answer is no, this is
too complicated. You're going to need to come
back on another day. We can't do this.
But I could not come back on another day because the.
License would be expired. The following day, like at like
midnight that night, my driver'slicense would have expired,
which would have put everything scratched, null and void and I

(09:05):
had no chance. And you know what, Maybe I don't
give enough credit for this, butthere was one man, you know,
really, Mariah Carey said it best.
Then a hero comes along and gives you the strength to carry
on. This man came through and you
know, he was just, we're going to make a plan for you, my

(09:26):
friend, let's get this thing done.
And really he went to each person in the administrative
line of this person needs to do that and that person needs to do
that. He went to each one of them and
said this is what you need to doso this can work.
We were at that counter with that man for over 2 hours.
I don't know why he had chosen to actually help us the way that

(09:51):
he did, because it's not as if we had any kind of connection or
anything like that. I think he might have just seen
the desperation in our eyes. We were very desperate.
We were very desperate, and we had zero power at that point.
And I think he knew that. And maybe it was just every
sympathetic bone in his body really wanted to be there for
us. And he was.
And he pushed that application forward.

(10:13):
Everything was legit. But I know that it wouldn't have
happened that day if I didn't get that help from that man.
And yeah, and it went through. And I wish, dear listeners, that
that was the end of that saga. Very shortly afterwards, I was
given a fantastic, shiny new driver's license from Portugal.

(10:35):
That's not what happened becausethe wrong address and the wrong
timing was given to the department, and it took two
years for that driver's license to actually find its way to my
pocket. In those two years, I actually

(10:55):
managed to go back to South Africa and apply for another
driver's license, which I used from six months after that so
that I could actually just drivea car.
I went to the US for a wedding for one of Liz's best friends,
Alicia, and I remember wanting to go to Taco Bell and not being

(11:20):
able to go to Taco Bell because I wasn't a licensed driver.
And it was so embarrassing to think that I needed to ask
people to give me a ride to go do things.
But that was the way that it was.
And coming back to it is that really, it was such a stupid
mistake to make because that's kind of a big part of life.

(11:42):
Being able to drive a car wherever you might be is
actually really an empowering thing, an important thing to be
able to do. I think what makes it even worse
was the stupidity of I went to the AAI.
Don't know if anyone out there knows about the A A it's the
Automobiles Association and theyclaim to have some kind of sway

(12:06):
on international driving and policy.
And I went to them and I said, listen, I'm moving to Portugal.
Is there anything that you can give me that I can use so that I
can drive out there? So this lady says, yes, you can
get an international drivers permit.
So I said that sounds like something I could use
internationally to drive. And it was this very fancy but

(12:28):
cardboard little booklet that had a big stamp in it that said
this man has a driver's license in South Africa that you paid
for, that I paid for. And then I arrived in Portugal
and they looked at that and saidwe've never seen anything like
this. It is worth nothing.
There is no there is no place oruse for this anywhere on

(12:52):
mainland Europe. So I don't know what you want us
to do with this, but it's not a drivers license and you need to
get your drivers license converted.
But the problem was just that you didn't get it renewed.
Like if you had renewed your South African driver's license
before you came and let's say you had like three years on it,
then we wouldn't have been in that situation of desperation of

(13:14):
please can you do this today? I.
Think you're right, because obviously it would have just
been me annoying police officersif and when they checked my
license, saying you should have swapped this out.
But yeah, I don't know. I mean, it was, you know, I
would like to say that it was aninnocent mistake because I think
it was more a slip of mind and maybe a lack of consideration

(13:35):
for that part of life. Of course it's something you
don't think about. I mean, how many of us have had
a passport expired just because you didn't think about the date
and you didn't realize and oh, now it's expired, I need to
hustle and and get a new one right away.
And I think you're also psyched out so much more because that
was one of the first big administrative stresses I had

(13:58):
when I had moved here. And everyone around me is
speaking deep Portuguese, administrative Portuguese.
And I don't know anything. And, you know, to be in that
situation is really a tough place to be.
And definitely, I think maybe even a good lesson to understand
how Portuguese bureaucracy works.

(14:21):
So that was my first mistake. What was one of your biggest
mistakes, Liz? Poof.
Well, I guess we'll go in chronological order for mine.
So one of my first big mistakes was when I first moved to
Sydney, Australia back in 2010, and I arrived on a working
holiday visa. And in my mind I was going to

(14:43):
arrive on this working holiday visa where I could get a job and
I'd get a waitressing job. And it would be so easy because
in New York, I had done waitressing, and I never
actually applied for a waitressing job that I didn't
get. In New York, you basically like
walk in and you're like, hey, I'd like to start waitressing.
It's one of those jobs you assume as a guarantee.

(15:06):
At some point you can just ask like 5 restaurants, you're going
to get a yes from at least threeof them.
Yeah, exactly. And I think with experience
especially I thought like New York experience, it shows that
it's been like a fast-paced environment.
I should be able to get a waitressing job without any
problem. Let me tell you, I was going to
restaurants. I was walking to like 20

(15:28):
restaurants a day, handing out CVS, my resume and saying
anything, anything, anything. And everyone said no to me.
Did they say no directly? Was it like straight up no.
It was a mix. So some were a straight up no,
we're not hiring. Some were will take your resume
and then they will never call you back.

(15:48):
And some were yeah. And then you're like, can I give
you my resume? And they're like, and it was
like, I, I really felt crazy because I must have applied to
over 100 restaurants. Is that how it works though?
I mean, in New York and Australia, I guess, in South

(16:09):
Africa, in my experience, this is 100 years ago when I was
young, it was an introduction tothe restaurant manager.
So you arrive and you're like, hey, everyone.
Hey, Sir, ma'am, I would like toapply for a job to be a waiter
here. Yep.
And then the little manager person will say, OK, let me go
to the big manager. Sure.
And then the big manager will come out from the back and say,

(16:30):
oh, are you looking for a waiting staff spot?
Yep. And then they'd have like a
short conversation with you and then it'll be done.
That is exactly how it happened in New York.
I never got a single conversation with the big
manager in Australia, not once. Did your CV make it to the big
manager? Probably not.

(16:50):
I never got a call back, not notone single call back.
And I was hustling like I was really going to lots of
restaurants, like shaking hands,Even restaurants that said like
help wanted in the sign on the on the front.
And no one wanted me to be a waitress.
Wow. What do you what do you think is
what? What do you think caused that?

(17:12):
Honestly, I just think that there are so many 20 something
year olds in Australia looking for waitressing jobs that when
it's help wanted, I think they fill that job within minutes and
I think they just didn't take the sign down.
I think they're probably gettingtons of people applying for each

(17:34):
job. I think it's just a flooded
market. Wow, I'm I'm shocked to hear
that. Even if it's a no, I would have
expected there to have been a conversation saying, look, we
just don't have space now, you know, we, we.
Some of them I had a conversation, some of them told
me no and said like we don't, we're not hiring right now.

(17:54):
But your numbers though should have meant you would have gotten
an offer, some offers just in terms of the number of
applications you you threw out there.
I thought so. And really I think it was just
me not knowing and not asking anyone.
Like I I didn't know anyone who had ever gone to Australia and
gotten a waitressing job before.I didn't know anyone who had

(18:15):
tried. So you spent a lot of time in
Australia. In retrospect, did people say
that getting a waitressing job was hard?
Yes. Oh okay, like.
Yes, yes. It's notoriously difficult.
I don't know if it's no, I don'tknow if it still is because at
that time, so this was over 10 years ago now that I was, I was

(18:36):
in that position, but over 10 years ago, it was really
difficult. And most of my friends that were
looking for those kinds of jobs ended up getting cleaning jobs
instead because those were a loteasier to get.
OK. So it was it was something in
the service industry for people,for young people who were there
on working holiday visas. Yeah, like waitressing was like

(18:58):
a promotion. So it was you didn't just go
into a restaurant and start waitressing.
Like they didn't hire you for that.
They would would hire you for like a cleaning job and then
maybe you could work up to beinga waitress.
OK. OK.
So it that's in very much opposition to our previous
experience of this is where you start.

(19:19):
Exactly because I was 16 when I was waitressing in New York.
I walked in. I was like, hello, my name is
Liz, I'd like to be a waitress now.
And yeah, exactly. Like they talked to the manager.
They brought him out. We had a little conversation and
then there I went on my merry way.
I got my little apron and I really loved.
Waitressing. Yeah.
I remember needing to do the test on the menu.

(19:40):
Do you remember everything that we served?
Do you remember all the little tricks and little bits and
pieces so that if anyone asks you anything, you've got an
answer? And once you've got that sorted
out, you're on your way. You get your little uniform, you
get your little apron and you and you're moving, you know?
Well, thank goodness they didn'tdo that in New York, because my
first waitressing job was actually at a diner where there

(20:01):
are like hundreds of items. I was on the menu, so I'm really
glad I wasn't tested on the menu.
I would have failed. But yeah, I think honestly, like
the the mistake that I made there was just having ridiculous
confidence that it would be in Australia the way that it was in

(20:21):
New York, because why wouldn't it?
And I had no thought that maybe this could be different and
maybe it would actually be difficult to get a job.
Maybe it would take more time. And I think the longer it takes
you to get a job, the more stressed you feel.
Because I was running out of money.
And every day that I wasn't getting calls back was another

(20:42):
day that I was spending money onaccommodation and spending money
on food and making nothing. So I was really hustling.
You know, you say that and it just makes me think about the
pressure of being that young andthinking about the price of food
and how much you could eat on any given day and there being

(21:07):
this deadline of this is how long I can stay in this place
before I have 0 money. Like living that close to the
edge really. Even now it like shakes me you
know? So I can understand how you
would have felt at that stage. Wow.
OK. All right, Ryan, what's next for
you? Give us another expat mistake.

(21:29):
I'm so sad to talk about this next one because I feel so much
shame in what it is that happened and I think maybe I'm
only recently comfortable enoughto talk about this experience in
my life. So I was a young, young man
wanting to build a new and exciting life, see new

(21:52):
countries, experiencing new things.
And I had a roommate at the timewho had just gotten a job in
Dubai. And at that stage in time, a job
in Dubai was a really big deal. I guess it might still be I'm
just not in that career space anymore.
But going to Dubai at that pointwas a big deal.

(22:14):
And so I was inspired and I started applying for jobs in
Dubai. And at that point in my life,
for some reason, I was entirely convinced that the calling for
me was to be an HR executive. And I don't know why I thought
that was the coolest thing ever,but that was what I wanted to do

(22:36):
at that stage. And so I applied for this job as
an AI. Guess it fits I think like you
get to help people. I could see you as an HR.
Yeah, yeah, You know, I mean, atsome point, you know, you, you,
you have to have some type of compromise between your real
interests and what you can offerto a company.
And I think HR often does that for people who have a, an

(22:59):
attraction to helping other people.
So that's probably one of the best places you can be to in a,
in a company to do that, you know, so that's probably one of
the things that really motivatedme behind it to say is this the
way for me to connect with people in a corporate
environment, HR, big tech. All right, so HR in Dubai, you

(23:20):
are ready. So I'm I'm ready, man.
This is going to be the big stepforward.
I'm on my way. I'm breaking out of South
Africa, I'm going international.I'm ready.
How old were you at this point? Yeah, I was, man.
I must have been. Oh, you're asking me a question
here now, Lizzie. I think that was 2008, maybe

(23:42):
around 2008. So how old would that have made
me? 23/22/20. 3/22/23 years old so
I'm on my way now I go to the airport my mom is crying and
saying I love you Ryan I hope this life is good for you.
I'm like, yes, me too. And you've told everyone you're

(24:03):
moving to Dubai? No way.
I'm the plane ticket. I'm like, I'm getting on the
airplane, like it's happening, right?
But it's contingent on my final interview at this company.
It's a printing company. I don't even remember the name
of the company. And I jump on the plane and I'm
on my way. And back then, you know, the the

(24:23):
Emirates airline used to providefilet mignon like, you know, you
know, the old you thought. Who you were?
You know, the old days, I mean, I wasn't sitting there.
I wasn't sitting there feeling like a baller, but I was feeling
like I've left and I'm starting this new thing.
So anything that's part of this new experience is going to be

(24:44):
part of my new life. And it's really mind blowing to
me because it's just exciting, Iguess, you know, it's not as if
I feel I deserve filet mignon, but I felt very grateful to have
it. But anyway, so arrive in Dubai
and have the interview set up, Everything's ready.
I'm, I'm psyched to get started.I arrived there and this dude

(25:08):
who was responsible for speakingto me, a man, he couldn't have
been anywhere near anything senior in this company, really.
They called me into this very dimly lit prefabricated building
with air conditioning that was barely hanging on in Dubai.

(25:30):
And he sits me down and he says,oh, it's good to have you here,
but there isn't any HR space available.
If you want, you can be a sales Rep.
What? And I had literally just left a
sales position because I hated it so much and.

(25:51):
You paid so much to get to Dubai.
Everything, everything that I had went into that plane ticket,
into that trip, into whatever itis that was going to happen
after that. And there I was.
And this really strange guy is saying to me, no, this isn't
even a thing. Like, we don't even know what we

(26:12):
would want you to do, really. And I looked at it and like, you
know, you're sitting there. I mean, I'm sure anyone who's
listening to this can relate it to some moment in their life
where it's this massive, huge moment that you know is going to
change the course of your life and it's happening to you in

(26:35):
that moment and you're looking at it and you know, it's.
Like slow motion. Absolutely slow motion.
And the guy who was selling me all of this too.
I don't know whether it's a goodthing or a bad thing.
I think he realized how pivotal this moment in my life was.
I think he was. I think he was looking at me and
being very understanding that everything around me was just

(27:01):
breaking down. Like the final scene of Fight
Club, you know, those baldings are falling in the background.
That was what was happening to my life at that moment.
I remember looking at him and thinking, I don't know what to
do. And it was really strange
because I did, you know, at thatpoint in time you're going to

(27:21):
try and make lemonade as well asyou can.
So I'm sitting there thinking, maybe I should become a sales
Rep here. Yeah.
Exactly like what are your? Choices and just get this thing
done. But then I'm sitting and I'm
also thinking like I have like sales Rep jobs, especially in
those days. It might still be that way.
I haven't, I haven't needed to be a salesperson for a while

(27:41):
now, but it was almost always like 100% sales Commission.
Yeah, for sure. So you're not gonna make
anything if you don't sell anything.
And that is it. And this is at a printing
company in like. In a market you don't know.
In a place that I've never met anyone, I know no one.
And also, you know, I don't knowif things have changed since

(28:04):
then, but you also committed to a work deal because they have
specific commitments they need to make to you.
You have commitments you need tomake to them.
So if you say yes, you're in this, you're in this for at
least a year. That's going to be your life for
at least a year. And you cannot get out.
And you can't get out. I mean, you could get out, but

(28:24):
it would require you to have money that I just didn't have.
Especially I wouldn't have any more money if I was a crap
salesperson, which is highly likely.
So I'm still sitting there in this office just realizing that
like this is just not going to work.
And if anyone is interested, my,my masterpiece master plan to

(28:47):
deal with this was to get onto another aeroplane to India
because the plane fare was really cheap and ended up in
India for months like backpacking, backpacking and
just living generally like a homeless person until eventually
certain things transpired in my life for me to get money for me

(29:08):
to go back to South Africa and start over again.
So I just, you know, I'm so gladthis is out there.
I'm sure we'll get to this pointand we'll talk about it more.
But a lot of people, including me, I've just paid all my shame
to you is that this happens. Hey, yeah, You, you go out there

(29:30):
with the best intentions, with the best laid plans.
And life just doesn't work that way.
And. Especially when you're younger
and especially when you know someone else who had done it,
and this seems like the same thing that they did, right?
It's so smooth for so many people, and I don't know how

(29:50):
smooth it really is, but the story of, well, you know, they
called me and they wanted me desperately.
The package was so much more than I ever thought it was going
to be. I didn't know they would give me
so much responsibility. I didn't know they were going to
give me a massive housing allowance and a free car.
And then you show up and they take your passport away.

(30:11):
Well. I'm, I'm, I'm turning up there
waiting to hear this. And they're like, there isn't a
job, pal, you know? So I'm just saying that that
happens I think a lot more than most people would ever really
admit. And I think that this kind of
stuff happens. And I could understand why you
would never tell a single soul about this because of how

(30:32):
traumatic it was and therefore something really embarrassing
and shameful. I'm so glad that you're able to
share that now and that you are able to see it as a bit of a
funny story. Even if it isn't ha ha,
hilarious. It's definitely something that
you learned from and you grew from and is a part of your

(30:52):
story. I don't know.
I, I wouldn't say, you know, I wouldn't say that.
It's, I mean, I, I, you could laugh at it and I, I think it
would be OK to laugh at it. And I don't think of it as being
something deeply serious or shameful anymore.
But I think that it's such an important thing to have happened
to me in my life because of so many other things that happened

(31:15):
as a result of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was the first time that I had ever left South Africa to go
somewhere else and needed to survive internationally.
Surviving internationally is something.
Maybe we'll have a podcast episode about this one day, but
surviving overseas is really an incredible thing for people to

(31:40):
go through because one of the important things that happens
when you do that is you realize that you can get through it and
you're going to be OK. Especially when you're alone,
because when you do it alone andyou weren't relying on anyone
else and you did get through it and you were OK.
Exactly what you're saying. It makes you realize that you're

(32:00):
tougher than you maybe thought. There's no other way for you to
find out whether or not you can survive other than actually
going and surviving. And you get close.
I mean, you were talking about working out how much money you
needed to have every day for food.
And I was there needing to figure out how long I can get
this done. You know, I mean, I got to the

(32:21):
stage where my, my mom needed tosend me 80 Rand. 80 Rand in
these days is like $4.00. And that $4.00, it was the
difference between me sleeping on the side of the road and
catching a bus across India to aplace where I had a bed to sleep
in. And, you know, I mean, that's

(32:42):
not to say, I mean, obviously I'm also, I have to be very open
about saying that I needed otherpeople to help me to survive.
And that's something that I needto acknowledge.
But I would have never been in that situation if I didn't put
myself in that situation, as crazy as it might sound.
What is your next mistake, Lizzie?
Oof. Well my next mistake is a bit of

(33:04):
a paperwork mistake. So when I moved to Kenya, I
arrived to Kenya on a tourist visa and that gave you 3 months.
And then when I was going to stay longer and I was actually
doing some work and figuring outlife in Kenya, I needed to renew

(33:26):
my visa. And in Kenya there is a person
for everything who will tell youhow easy it is.
And don't worry, I'll get that sorted for you.
And it's just this small fee andI've done this hundreds of
times, thousands of times before.
And you can trust me and it'll all be fine.

(33:46):
And like, just give me your passport and, and don't worry.
And I trusted and I gave a man on a motorbike my passport and
he took it to some office and hegot some stamp on it.
Was it an actual visa? A visa visa.

(34:11):
This is this is this, this is what allows you to be in this
country. But I didn't think anything of
it because it, it was like, OK, and like, here it is.
And now here there's a stamp in my passport and it looks like a
visa. And I thought everything was
fine. And I paid the man and I, I went
on my merry way and I continued living in Kenya.

(34:32):
And why would I question that? Yeah, it wasn't like any police
officers were jumping through your window because this is
illegal and. No, no.
No, no alarm bells were rung. I thought I did everything by
the book. I thought I was fully legal then
I'm leaving Kenya and flying back to the US and I give my

(34:54):
passport at the airport and she's like what is this fake
visa? What was that moment like?
I was like, what are you talkingabout?
Like I thought maybe like this is a bad joke or like what is
she saying because this is my visa.

(35:16):
Fake visa. What is this fake visa?
That is terrifying. Like my blood is running cold
now. It was, it was pretty
terrifying. And then, I don't know, she went
from questioning and I was like,what?
What do you mean? Like, what's going on?
Like this is my visa. And then she got mad and she was
just like you. The word for foreigners in Kenya

(35:40):
is Mizungus. And she was like, you Mizungos,
you come here, you think you canjust do whatever you want and
you can stay as long as you want.
We have rules. You need to follow them.
Like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, oh, no, I have
no idea what I did. I have no idea what I didn't do.

(36:00):
I have no idea what this stickerin my passport is.
And now, like, what does that mean for other countries?
Like can I even leave? Am I going to ever be able to
come back? What is going on?
I was, I was freaking out. It was, it was not good.
But obviously all of this is happening in seconds, right?
Like you need to control your face.

(36:22):
You need to be super nice, superapologetic.
I'm so sorry. I had no idea.
Oh no, like, please tell me whatare the rules?
I started crying. Like really?
I would never break the rules onpurpose.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
I think this is one of the things that's fascinating about
international life, where you know that because you sometimes

(36:44):
live a little bit closer to the edge of risk when you're moving
to different places, when you'rein less developed countries,
that kind of stuff, you accept that as being a risk that you're
facing. But then on the other side of
that risk is the transgression of international laws for sure,

(37:04):
and dealing with law enforcementin certain airports where men
are carrying massive rifles and pulling people into dark
corners. And at that point in time, I
have 0 courage. I am not a cool man when I am
being questioned by security because I work really hard to

(37:25):
never live a life that requires security or anything, and if I
somehow find myself in a situation where I'm having that
conversation, I am terrified. Oh for sure.
And luckily for me in this situation, my white girl
privilege and and my crying and my severe please I'm so sorry

(37:47):
I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do?
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
She was like when are you comingback to Kenya?
And I was like, I'm not sure. And she was like, is it in the
next 6 months? And I was like, no, I don't have
plans to come back in the next 6months.
And she was like fine, just go. And she stamped my passport and
let me through, which was so lucky.

(38:07):
So yeah, I was incredibly lucky.I think that when I got to the
other side through immigration, I just let out this is a sigh of
relief and really had no idea what could have happened.
And I think that's the scariest part of it is, you know, that

(38:30):
that could have gone in so many different ways.
And the fact that it was just a few minutes of someone being
upset and being asking what was going on and why was I doing
this? In the grand scheme of things,
that's nothing. That's nothing.
But it was a huge mistake for meto trust a visa renewal with

(38:54):
someone that I didn't know and just showed up on a motorbike.
And I really, really like looking back at that.
I was a fool. So do you think that him just
showing up out of nowhere and being on a motorbike was enough
to have sparked suspicion if youwere more vigilant?

(39:16):
I think that when it comes to a passport and a visa, you need to
do it yourself. And I think that whatever the
service that I trusted was of, Oh no, we'll just pick up your
passport, we'll take it to the office, it'll just be gone, and
we'll handle it all for you. I think that really I should

(39:37):
have asked what office? I, I think that's definitely a
red flag and an alarm bell for me.
And I feel that today we, I don't know, I have this
assumption that people are less fraudulent and scammy, but they
aren't. But the second someone says I
need your passport I'm immediately thinking, man, I'm

(40:02):
in a vulnerable position right now.
It is, but of course they need your passport to get a visa,
right? So they're going to take your
passport? Absolutely.
There needs to be some element of you trusting someone, even if
it is for a split second if you were to hand it over across to a
desk where someone stamps it. But I'm talking about, I don't
know if anyone remembers these days of travel.

(40:25):
I, I, I don't think they do it anymore because I've never had
to do it. Maybe for the last like 15
years, 20 years, but there was atime where if you stayed in a
hotel they would take your passport from you and lock it in
there safe. Yes, I do remember.
Do you remember they used to do that I.
Hated that. It was so creepy because I just

(40:45):
thought so many things could potentially happen.
And not just hotels, hostels. And I would I would be paying
$4.00 a night to stay at this hostel and then took my.
Passport, no, it's huge. So those kinds of things I think
are really too much for me. Even now when someone requests
my passport, you know, sometimesyou have to pay these silly

(41:07):
tourism tax payments and stuff they have, they have to take
your, your documents and my passport is away from me for
like 4 minutes while this persontakes a photo.
The four minutes I'm stressing and then the then like going on,
I'm thinking that person took a photograph of my passport.
I wonder how they could use thatto trash my life.

(41:28):
You know, I think this, it goes a long way to show how
optimistic Liz can be so. It's true.
I really didn't think anything bad could happen.
It would all be great. Well, in retrospect, nothing bad
did happen. It's, you know, you got through
it, you got through the the customs and immigration line and

(41:48):
here you are to tell the story. But I'm very quick to call it a
travel mistake. It wasn't it wasn't your finest
moment, but you know you made it.
All right, Ryan, what is your third expat mistake?
I feel as though I feel as I'm spending too much time talking
about navigating Portuguese bureaucracy, because again, it's

(42:12):
the same thing. So in Portugal.
I don't know if it's still this way, but I suspect it is.
You need to open something called an activity on your
profile on the finance website and system for you to work while
you for you. To work for yourself.
For you to work for yourself, right?
So you open up this activity andyou say I'm going to be, in my

(42:36):
case it was an IT consultant. You do your IT consulting your
text in a specific way. You need to provide certain
documentation so that your text can be processed and you can
move on with your life. When that contract or when that
activity is over, you need to close that activity on your
online finance profile. If you don't, all it does is it

(43:00):
appears, is as if you're continuing to work with a
varying amount of tax, which means that you need to supply
the correct information for thattaxation to happen.
I completed a very long contractand I didn't close the activity
and I didn't earn any money in that particular month from this

(43:21):
particular contract. And So what ended up happening
was because it still looked likeI had turned up for work for
that particular month, yet earned no money.
I needed to supply the right documentation to say, hey
everyone, I didn't earn any money this month from this work.
So here's what I need you to know.

(43:41):
And therefore I would get taxed 0.
Yeah. So basically in a month where
you earned €5, you would be taxed €1.00.
In a month where you earned €10 you'd be taxed 2 euro and then
this month you earn €0. So you would be taxed €0
Absolutely. But you never submitted
paperwork to say I earned €0, soI owe €0.

(44:02):
Exactly because I, I'm thinking,hey man, I owe nothing.
So there's no reason for you to text me anything.
So I'm just going to move on with my life.
I'll close it when I, when I logon again, you know, when I'm,
when I've got some time at the Internet cafe or something,
I'll, I'll go into the finance website and close that activity.
The. Internet Cafe?
What was this happening in like 2002?

(44:24):
I'm just, I'm just checking. But that's really what it is
that I was thinking. I thought it was such a minor
thing. Yeah.
And I moved on with my life. And then, bang, here comes a
letter from the Portuguese Finance department, the IRS of
Portugal, saying, so you didn't say anything about your tax in

(44:46):
this particular month. You owe us €80.
The fact that you made €0 and owed €0 but didn't put that into
the system, you had a fine of €80 so.
I had to pay €80 because of thatmistake and I think that's one

(45:08):
of the most painful things to make as a payment because you
know that it's not money that you should have had to pay.
It could have been €5 that I would have needed to pay as this
penalty and it would probably have hurt as much because I knew
that it was a mistake. I knew that I didn't owe anyone

(45:30):
any money other than for being an idiot.
And that is what hurts the most.There is a financial amount
associated to my silliness. I wouldn't say idiot.
I really wouldn't. I think that this is such a
great example of you don't know what you don't know.
When you move to a new country, there are so many different

(45:52):
rules and you will never know all of them.
And you're just kind of going along with the ones that apply
to you right now and hoping for the best.
And really, I think that it would have been impossible for
you to know everything. Should you have asked someone
when you opened the activity what else you needed to do in

(46:13):
order to have the activity? Yeah, maybe.
But I wouldn't say you're an idiot for not knowing.
No. Would you have known?
I think, I think that's The thing is that maybe like looking
at the bigger picture is understanding just how much of
an impact bureaucracy specifically can have on a
person's life as they go throughthis experience.

(46:35):
Because people will often say, oh, you know what, like Italy, I
know, is notorious for a brutal bureaucracy system and a lot of
people struggle with it. And when people respond to that
information, they say, oh, so you mean it's just a lot of
forms and a lot of systems that you need to sign up for and deal

(46:56):
with. And yes, that's one part of it.
But understanding how those systems and how those processes
work inside is actually where a lot of the pain and difficulty
is from. We had a letter come through
from the finance division a couple of months ago and we
didn't know what we needed to pay because it was so

(47:19):
complicated. The person who helped us, which
was a young Portuguese lady, needed to check specifically on
the government website because she herself had never seen that
tax item before. Yeah, and it wasn't anything
crazy. It was for our card it.
Was it was not. Car registration.
It was, yeah, it was, it was just, it was almost entirely

(47:41):
administrative. But the whole point is this is
that we couldn't pay that because we didn't know what that
tax was for. Yeah, exactly.
And you need to do this calculation yourself and if you
do the calculation wrong then you're going to pay some crazy
fine. So it's this multi layered
system of you need to know this and then you need to know that

(48:02):
and then and if you get it wrong, you're going to pay.
There's so many things, there's so many things underneath it all
which you are supposed to know anyway, Liz, your last big
mistake. Well, my last big ex pet mistake
was believing that bringing my new boyfriend to a country that

(48:24):
I had visited once and he had never been to would be so easy.
He would just adapt immediately.Everything would be so smooth,
we wouldn't need to put any workin, it would just be so easy.
Ryan as that boyfriend at the time.
How did it go? The size of my bald spot has

(48:46):
increased at a rate and to an extent which I never imagined.
I have aged over the last eight years in my time in Portugal.
I have discovered new parts of myself which I never knew could
get as stressed as they have. I've discovered the depths that

(49:08):
anxiety can take you. But I'm glad I did it.
But I think this is the thing I the mistake that I made was
underestimating just how hard itis to move abroad because it had
been a while for me and I had lived in so many different

(49:28):
countries at that point that I just really think I forgot how
hard it was. We were talking my first big
mistake when I was in Sydney andI was desperate to get a job in
order to make money to survive. Today that felt like a different
lifetime almost, and the struggles that I faced when I

(49:51):
first moved abroad felt so distant when I met you and when
I was thinking about moving to Portugal, it was just another
country and moving to Portugal for me, it was really a lot
easier than moving to Portugal was for you.
Well, I think that it's actuallyit's a bit more complicated I

(50:12):
feel, right? So there's two things that stand
out for me, right. The first thing is how sort of
streetwise and educated you are in the ways of adapting to new
countries and places. Because of experience.
Because of experience, I think that you've done this for a long
time and I think that like you're really good at it and
you've, you've, you know, it's, it's, it's absolutely a full on

(50:36):
compliment because I think that it's really, it's a skill, it's
a personality type, it's a perspective, it's an attitude.
There's so much of it that you need for you to be able to move
among different countries and people and places and customs
and cultures. It's a big thing.
And I think that you're very good at it from this experience

(50:56):
and inherent things that are part of your personality.
I think the other thing is that we talked to Ryan Brock a couple
of weeks ago in one of our previous podcast episodes about
him moving to London. And one of the things that stood
out there for me was in a respectful way, how easier, how

(51:16):
much easier it is to move to London, where everyone speaks
the same language, where systemsare similar, where you might
have a big community that you'replugging into of people that you
already know totally. And so that makes it easier too.
So for me, going to Portugal, itwas not having the skills to
adapt to a new country to the extent where I could actually

(51:39):
live holistically and in an integrated way, and moving to a
country where people don't speakmy language at all.
And at that stage, expats and immigrants were still were still
finding a place in the bigger cultural bubble.
Yeah. So you didn't have the skills,
the language or the community? Exactly.

(52:01):
And it was really a big thing for me.
And, and I don't, you know, I think a lot of people might look
at this and say, well, you couldhave done things differently and
that might be true and that might be correct.
But I do feel as though I was ina bad space and place for me to
make that transition at that stage.

(52:21):
And I'll even go so far as to say maybe things would have been
better if I had a better attitude.
I don't think I had a bad attitude, but I didn't know what
the correct attitude and perspective was for me to make
this work in the way that I needed it to work.
And I was just sort of overwhelmed and bowled over in

(52:41):
in short, you know? And my mistake was being so
confused as to why you were overwhelmed and bowled over and
what's going on? Why is this so difficult for
you? I am here and we're doing this
and here we go and let's keep moving and you're struggling.
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a heavything to to unpack, right?

(53:02):
Because you've got so many different people who deal with
these things in so many different ways.
And I remember one of the thingsthat I really tried hard to do
was to plug into expect meetups and meeting with people who were
supposedly in similar situationsto myself and discovering at

(53:23):
those meetups and in those interactions that so many of
those people were very poorly equipped to deal with the things
themselves. It's true.
And so you're sitting there talking to someone across the
table from you about how this has been a massive change in
your life and that you're feeling out of your depth and

(53:44):
you're struggling. And their response is they're
going through exactly the same thing, but they're going to deal
with it by denying that this is happening at all.
Exactly pretending that everything is amazing.
Exactly. So I'm sitting there being like,
dude, how are you dealing with not having any work?
Because that's a big deal. That's a big part of life.

(54:05):
And they're like, no, I've got 1000 prospective clients and I
expect them all to call me tomorrow.
So I'm not even stressing. And I'm sitting there thinking,
man, I am stressed about where I'm going to get money for my
next beer. And this, this guy is in exactly
the same situation as me and is not worried about anything.

(54:26):
And all I'm saying, I guess, is just that this is a very big
move to make for so many people.So you're saying that it was a
mistake. And I don't think that it was a
mistake. I think that it was something
that we needed to do. And I think that if there was a
mistake there, it was maybe in forgetting what moving to a new

(54:49):
country entails. Yeah, I think that's exactly the
mistake. Believing that it would be so
easy, forgetting that it's actually quite difficult and
requires a bit of work. I think that my mistake was
having these rose colored glasses, that I've done it once
and look, here I am, I survived,so he'll be fine.

(55:10):
It's not going to take much. Everything will be so easy.
That was my mistake. It wasn't coming.
I think coming was a good choicefor us.
But I think that my rose coloredglasses belief that everything
would be so easy was a mistake because in hindsight, if I had
prepared you better and said like this is going to be.

(55:32):
I don't think that would have helped me, if I'm honest.
Yeah, I don't mean it in AI, don't mean to mitigate any of
those concerns, but I'm just saying I think that this is
something you need to go throughpretty much wherever it is that
you're going to go. And the next place that we live,
if and whenever that might be, Iwould need to go through

(55:54):
basically the same challenges, but I think I would have a
better resource pool. Within myself because you built
up the skills. Now, because I've been through
it and I've got that experience of understanding, this is what I
might need to do in the next place for me to not go through
the same struggles that I went through the first time.
Yeah, I guess that's very true. I think that you can tell

(56:16):
someone how to swim and go through in words exactly what's
required in order to swim. Throw them in water and it's a
different game. And I guess that's what it is
for moving abroad. And once you know how to swim,
once you know how to live abroad, you don't really
remember what it was like to notknow.

(56:36):
Yeah, I mean, I make the assumption that wherever the
next place is going to be is going to include some pretty
gnarly bureaucracy and difficulty finding social groups
where I can fit in. I look forward to struggling
with racial profiling because that's part of life.
And the thing, though, is that that's not going to change.

(56:56):
I have changed though, and I need to figure out a way to put
those lessons into play so that I can live a better life, you
know? All right, let's hear from
another expat. So this is Nina.
She is originally from Serbia and now living in Portugal.
When I think about things that Icould have done differently when

(57:19):
I moved to Portugal, one thing comes to mind and it has a lot
to do with my personality as well.
It's this need to really fit in.But I, I, in my defense, I was
younger 25 when I got here and Ireally wanted to walk and talk

(57:39):
like them. And I'm not talking about
learning the language because that's a must, obviously, but
more like embracing their culture and way of being 100%.
And it took me years to realize that by doing that, I was maybe
sacrificing a little bit of my own way of being And, and parts

(58:01):
of my culture. A small thing that comes to mind
is having lunch at noon. I never had lunch at noon before
coming to Portugal. And then all of a sudden I was
trying to be hungry at 1:00 PM, you know, because all the
colleagues would take a break atthat time.
It's, it's kind of, it's scheduled, you know, And of

(58:23):
course when you go to a restaurant, you have to accept
the fact that if you show up at 2:30, you will be sent home most
probably. But I'm talking about me trying
to implement this in my own house.
You know, after some years, I finally gave up.

(58:44):
But after some years, you know, another thing is trying to
conduct a small talk, just, you know, to, to talk like them to,
to do the stuff that everyone does here.
Just for a bit of context, I come from the Eastern Europe and
we don't do small talk. It's actually very painful to

(59:08):
sweat through the pattern of conversation.
So, yeah, also after some years,I, I've given up.
I don't do it anymore. I don't even try.
The best I can do is now to Dubai and to Dubai and Adyosh.

(59:30):
I love that she said this. So this is something that we
actually talked about doing a full episode on and still might.
The idea that Nina had, that Ryan had, that I had, that I
think almost all of us have at some point moving abroad, is
that if you try hard enough, you'll be just like them.

(59:51):
I will never be Portuguese. I will never be Australian.
I will never be South African, Iwill never be Irish.
I will never be anything else because I'm not.
And the more that I try to be like them, the more that I try
to be Portuguese in Portugal, the more that I feel like I'm

(01:00:11):
wearing shoes that are two sizestoo small.
And it's OK. It's OK.
It's not saying that you aren't trying to integrate.
Yeah. It's not saying that you don't
respect, care for and love the culture.
It's not saying that you don't respect the people.
It's not saying that you don't love being there.
Of course it doesn't say any of those things.

(01:00:34):
It's just accepting the fact that your path in life, who you
are as a person, is not the sameas the people who we been
through all the same stuff in that place.
And I think that's one of the things that I really struggle
with when I try to find people to relate to about my struggles

(01:00:55):
as an expat. There are a lot of people who
don't want to hear how you mightfeel about struggling in this
place because it's an indicationthat you're not doing whatever
it is you're supposed to do, to be, in my case, Portuguese.
And I think also they don't wantto hear that you're struggling
because they don't want to be struggling.

(01:01:17):
And they want to hear that you're happy and everything is
perfect, because that means thatthey can be happy and everything
will be perfect for them too. I'll be brave, Liz, and I'll
tell you today I really don't like sardines.
My life is built in Portugal right now.
The closest people, some of the closest people that I have in my

(01:01:39):
life are in Portugal. My home is in Portugal.
We have a life there, right? I don't like sardines because
they're too Bony and they're toofishy.
They just don't taste good to me.
And, and I don't know why that gets on the nerves of so many

(01:02:00):
other expats because I sit thereand I can say that to Portuguese
people and say, hey, man, you know, can I, can I buy you your
next plate of sardines? Can we go out to eat fish
together? You order the sardines, I'll
order the sea. Yes, right.
And I'm going to be so happy when you're happy eating those

(01:02:21):
sardines. I'm not going to eat them
because I don't like them. And it's not some kind of
statement about the quality of this country or the people that
live in it. It's just a case of saying I am
from a different place. I spent 30 something years of my
life in another place for me to end up being who I am.

(01:02:44):
Yeah. And I don't feel like moving to
this country means that I need to abandon all of that and
somehow become a guy named Joao who loves eating sardines and
going fishing and moving very slowly.
That's, that's not that's not what's happened.

(01:03:05):
I'm still a South African guy that's now living here.
And that's what I'm bringing to the table in terms of the
diversity that Ioffer, in terms of perspective, in terms of
relationships that I have with people there, in terms of how I
can help others, in terms of what it is that I might
experience for myself. And I think that's such a tough

(01:03:26):
thing for so many people to go through, especially people who
are struggling, because they have this belief that if they
hold their breath long enough, they can become the nationality
of the place where they're living.
Yeah, it's true it. Makes no sense.
I mean, there's some things thatI, I look at and I'm the people

(01:03:47):
of Portugal are in admiration ofcertain things in other
countries because other countries do some things better
than Portugal. Portugal does some things better
than other countries, of course.But then The thing is that the
person from that country will make reasons, will make excuses
and bring up stories about how that country is crap because

(01:04:09):
they don't want Portuguese people to feel bad about
something that they're not particularly good at.
Yeah, Yeah. It makes no sense.
I don't know. I don't know.
Maybe I'm saying too much and I'm I'm instigating too much,
but I really, I believe very strongly in that.
All right. Last section today we are going
to do a new kind of would you rather.

(01:04:30):
And this would you rather is going to be about mistakes that
we've made. So instead of choosing
countries, we are would you rather with scenarios and it's
mistakes. So would you rather show up in a
new country without speaking thelanguage but with a job sorted?
Or would you rather show up in anew country without a job, but

(01:04:55):
you speak the language? So guaranteed job don't have the
language or have the language noguaranteed job, correct?
I think having a job without knowing the language is your
better is your better shot. Me too, only because I went
through the situation in Australia where I had the
language and I didn't have the job and I struggled.

(01:05:18):
Well, it's about like having a platform, isn't it?
Yeah. So you've got that platform, you
know that there's money coming in, you've got some level of
stability and routine. You've got work colleagues.
That's a big, big source of social connection.
Yeah. You, you know, you feel safe,
you're in a better place. And then from there, I mean,
would you rather basically learnthe language or look for a job?

(01:05:41):
Yeah. And I think learning the
language might take longer, but it's probably less stress if,
you know, that's taken care of. OK, so we agree.
All right. Would you rather get to a
country and find out that there's no Uber or find out that
there's no Amazon? And I'm going first and I will
happily say no Amazon because when I first lived in Kenya with

(01:06:04):
no Uber and you were having to haggle over taxis and beg
someone to take you and then getcharged 10 times more than a
local gets charged. It was so hard and now you go to
Kenya, you order your Uber and you don't have to think about
it. They will show up when they say

(01:06:26):
they're going to show up, they will take you to the
destination. You can watch the map the whole
way. You know that you're going in
the right direction and that Peace of Mind, to me, it's
amazing. And I will happily go without
buying things on the Internet inorder to have that.
No, I would agree with you. I'm, I'm, I'm in the same boat
as you. I will say this, this is just a

(01:06:48):
shout out to the people who usedto go to India before Uber.
My goodness. It's similar to what you would
have experienced in Kenya of needing to haggle, you know,
that kind of thing. But the kind of rejection you
get from auto drivers, tuck, tuck drivers in India, when you

(01:07:10):
would go up to them and say, look, I want to go to this
place. And the response they would give
somehow to more than any other rejection you would get in your
life. It was so brutal.
They would sometimes not even look at you.
You would say, oh, I want to go to MG road and they would just

(01:07:31):
look into the air until you walked away in defeat and shame.
It was so hard, like in, in retrospect, again, thankfully
I'm I'm not needing to do that anymore because of Uber and
because times of moved on. But really I think it was one of
the great victories of technology for people not

(01:07:53):
needing to deal with that level of treatment.
So absolutely I will take Uber every day of the week.
All right, Would you rather livein a perfect place where you
have to pretend to be perfect all the time, or live in a
deeply flawed and dangerous place where you can be yourself?

(01:08:13):
I'm South African. We are living in a deeply flawed
place full of deeply flawed people, all of us in a deeply
flawed government with crazy stuff happening left right and
center. And I don't know if anyone
regrets that. And I, I would take living in a

(01:08:37):
difficult place with flawed people anytime I think it's, I
think it's the best place to be,I would choose it if that was,
if that was what I needed to do.Because I think that in those
places and in those situations and those scenarios, people
being who they are is really what makes a place colorful.

(01:09:01):
It's what makes a place warm. It's what makes a place
interesting. Exactly.
I think going to a perfect quoteUN quote perfect place would be
interesting for a day and I would never.
I don't even think I would last a day.
I don't think I could pretend tobe perfect long enough to not be
kicked out. Yeah, You know, you've, we've

(01:09:21):
been to those places. There's plenty of them in
mainland Europe. You go, you know, you go to a
restaurant, everything is exactly the way that it should
be. And the food doesn't taste right
when you go to Argentina and a man brings out some biscuits,
some cookies that his grandmother made the day before
from the lounge where they were watching TV and charges you

(01:09:45):
$1.50 for 25 of them. Those are the best cookies.
Those are the best cookies. The the place where you get
tacos and his gravy on the walls, that's where the best
tacos are. And that's how it works.
You know, that's another easy question for me.
All right, last one. And I think this will be easy
too. But we have to ask, would you

(01:10:07):
rather have to come home becauseit didn't work out or wonder
what it would have been like if you had gone?
Deep and poignant. What is your answer?
What do you say? My answer is definitely you have
to come home because it didn't work out.
Because for me, that curiosity of what would it have been like,

(01:10:32):
I would never stop asking myselfthat question.
I would drive myself crazy. I would so much rather go
somewhere and hate it and then leave.
Then always wonder what would have happened if I went.
I don't think I could handle that.
No, I agree with you. I'm I'm the same.
I'm I'm option number one. I would rather fail and then

(01:10:55):
come back home, then sit at homeand wonder what life would have
been if I ever went. You know, for people who are
interested, I did fail after going to Dubai and India and I
came back home. And after having come back home,
I realized that I actually couldn't stay.

(01:11:18):
And it took me many years to getthe resources and the situations
in line and in place for me to try again.
But I did, and I had no regrets over it.
And I feel like that might stillcome back to play a role in my
life going forward, of trying new things further and bigger

(01:11:43):
and more different and there being potential for those things
to not work and for me to need to regress in some way.
But I've also spent a lot of time living a life where I knew
that I wasn't where I was supposed to be, and I knew that
I wasn't the person who I wantedto be, and I wasn't that person

(01:12:07):
because I hadn't taken that step.
And not having taken that step, despite there being a high
likelihood of failure, was worsethan failing.
The failure is brutal. It's like a knife in your heart.
It's just like a slap in the face, right?
And then there's the shame afterwards.
But when you sit there wonderingwhat your life could be or

(01:12:31):
should be, or whether it wouldn't feel this way if you
tried, that is slowly suffocating.
And that's not the way anyone should have to live.
Yeah, I think you need to take the risk.
You need to try. Even if you fail, no one's

(01:12:51):
judging you. They didn't even try.
You'll, you'll laugh about it. You'll, I promise you'll laugh
about it. If you don't laugh about it,
you'll at least look back on it as being one of the great
adventures of your life. Well, everyone, thank you so
much for joining us this week. We talked about our biggest
mistakes as expats. There were thousands that we

(01:13:12):
haven't told you about yet, and it was really fun to do that.
We want to say thank you so muchto Nina for sharing with us.
That's really such a deep and insightful perspective that you
shared and we really appreciatedthat.
So if you have anything else that you'd like to share with
us, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to know what's going

(01:13:33):
on with you and what you might have experienced.
You can reach out to us on Instagram at Expats Listen, or
you can send us an e-mail at expatslisten at gmailcom.
We'd love to hear from you. And until we speak again, have a
good week. Goodbye.