September 4, 2025 • 53 mins
A loaded question! But one that you should ask yourself, whether or not other people ask you.
Moving away from a good job and “on the right track” life in New York, Liz was asked this question constantly in her 20’s when she chose a new path. Moving from South Africa to Europe, nobody asked Ryan what he was running away from, but he asked himself.
We have all tried to run away from our problems at one point or another, and moving to another country seems like such a shiny way to start fresh. Unfortunately, your problems are yours and they’ll stay stuck to you wherever you go.
That said, there are always going to be good things AND bad things about every place. The key is finding balance and being able to see both the good and the bad when you’re choosing where to live. Seeing only the bad or only the good is a sure way to make yourself miserable, and we’ve seen plenty of that in expats and immigrants from our own countries!
So how do you find that balance? And how do you run toward what you want instead of running away from what you don’t? Ryan and Liz have so much to talk about this week!
Plus, now that we’ve got real listeners, our new segment where we hear from YOU and have some real expats chime in on what they say when asked what they’re running away from. This week we’ve got Massimo from Italy living in Canada, Anca from Romania living in Portugal, and Ian from South Africa living in the United Kingdom.
Do you want to be featured in a future episode? Send us a DM on Instagram @expatslisten and we’ll send you the question! 🙂
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Ex Cuts Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, the struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz. So what was your week, Ryan?
I've had a good week, we've donesome travel across Ireland, it's
been super fun. I managed to get a surf in but I
(00:21):
did have a short cold which really wasn't too great in this
rainy weather but I'm feeling a lot better today.
So happy to be here and enjoyingthe greenery and the rain of
Ireland. What a wonderful place.
How was your week, Liz? Yeah, my week was really good.
It's been very nice to be in Ireland and even though it's
raining, still getting some somehikes in.
(00:44):
And definitely MVP award to Ryanfor doing the vast majority of
the driving in order to get us here.
So I think the cold was going tocome from the mount of.
I've been so tired but it's beensuch a good trip so far.
Nice road trip. So what are we talking about
this week, Ryan? This week, it's a very
(01:06):
interesting topic that I think effects a lot of people in
different ways, and I think it'sgoing to be really deep to go
into this, to understand people.And the topic really is, what
are you running away from when you pursue the expat life?
So what is it that you're leaving behind?
(01:27):
What is it that you're going towards?
What is the question that you'reasking yourself?
And what will that answer look like?
Have you been asked that question, Liz?
Right, I've been asked this question so many times, I think
it's really interesting. Maybe this is time for my rant
already in the episode, but I have been asked this question.
(01:50):
What are you running away from? More times than I can count, but
especially in my 20s when I quita good job in New York to
travel. I just, I think there's
something really scary about someone living a life that is so
polar opposite to everything that you believed was quote UN
quote, right? So I was a good student.
(02:11):
I went to an Ivy League university.
I graduated, I got a good job inNew York.
I worked my way up the ladder and everything was exactly as it
should be. But then I quit.
So I stepped off of that life escalator and then everyone else
was on, and it made no sense to any of the people around me.
Even my boss at the time was convinced that I'd be knocking
(02:31):
on his door in a few weeks asking for my old job back.
The next steps that I was supposed to do were to get
married, buy a house, have some kids, keep progressing my New
York career until one day I retired and then maybe I could
travel internationally and do some of these fun things that I
had wanted to do. And no one can understand why I
(02:52):
didn't want that because they wanted that.
That was the plan. That's what we should all be
doing and that's what they were doing.
So if I didn't want it, it was like there was something wrong
with me. So I think that's where the
question came in, of what are you running away from?
Because maybe I was running awayfrom something that they didn't
(03:13):
know. And then you get to kind of
protect themselves to make sure that that was supposed to happen
to them. And I'm going to be really
honest to you, I think for that first trip, maybe I was running
away a little bit. And I think, like if I dig deep,
like the things that I was really running away from were
this idea of 10 vacation days per year and what it would mean
(03:38):
for my job to define who I was for the rest of my life.
And I was terrified of those things.
And I think that I've only been in the corporate world for a
couple of years and I already saw that.
Like, that was my future and that's where things were headed
and that's where I was going. So I wasn't leaving to, like,
(04:02):
blow up my whole lights and to live abroad forever.
My goal was really to take one single year off.
I was going to travel alone. I was going to see the world a
little bit. And then I was going to settle
back into that life in New York that everyone expected me to
want, except that I didn't. And then that was 2010.
(04:24):
And. You discovered this on the trip.
Completely. I think on a trip I was really
able to look a bit deeper into what I wanted but also what I
didn't want, and I was able to start chasing what I actually
wanted instead of running away from maybe what I was scared of
(04:49):
or what I felt like didn't fit me.
What did you think of the corporate life while you were
doing it? Did you like it?
Did not like it? Was it just something that you
felt you needed to do because that was what was supposed to be
done? I loved it.
I felt powerful. I think that when I was doing
well in my job, I felt like I was good, I was worthy.
(05:13):
I was doing the things that I was supposed to be doing, and I
took a lot of pride in that. I think I've always taken a lot
of time in my work, but I think that in that job in particular,
it was like every milestone thatI hit was like a giant dopamine
hit. And it was like, yes, you're
(05:33):
doing well. You're doing well, but I
couldn't get away from that fearthat is this all there is.
Especially at that age. Yeah, I was young.
When I was 20 something, I was ababy.
So that would have been the commitment you would have made
for the life that you would havehad.
And that was a bit scary. I.
Think so. I think I really didn't see a
(05:57):
way to stop only caring about work unless I completely like.
I didn't see a way to define myself as more than just what I
did in that situation in New York at the time.
I just felt like that's what we were all doing.
(06:20):
Well, I think the other elementsof developing a personality and
life at that age is probably getting married and having a kid
to add to that identity, which Ithink most people do.
Exactly like most people are doing exactly that.
And I didn't want that. I wasn't looking for that.
I honestly, I had no interest inthat in my 20s whatsoever.
(06:45):
And I had done semester at sea back in university.
So I did this ridiculous cruise ship around the world for 100
days where we visited a bunch ofdifferent countries.
And the biggest thing that that taught me was that the world is
smaller than you think and you can actually just show up in a
(07:07):
place and you'll probably be OK.So travel felt easier to me than
maybe it felt to my peers because I had travelled before.
So when I thought of quitting myjob to travel, it seemed really
doable and it seemed really manageable.
(07:29):
And also pretty good at saving money.
And I was making good money at that time.
So I had enough saved up that I could do this and take this year
off. And yeah, like I'm saying, all
it was ever going to be at that time was a year off.
But everyone thought I was running away, everyone.
And I'm saying, like the woman at the grocery store, the woman
(07:52):
at the bank, like I couldn't go anywhere and tell someone my
plan that I was going to quit myjob and taking her to travel.
And I'm so excited. Didn't hear all the places I'm
going to go. And there's like, oh, So what
are you running away from? Wow, I think that sounds so,
(08:12):
that sounds so first world because The thing is, things are
so good, there's no reason for you to leave, which means that
there has to be something that you're running away from for you
to leave the country. And coming from ex third world
developing nation like South Africa, generally people have
(08:32):
framed it in how are you going to escape?
How are you going to find something better and bigger?
And that was how we were taught to think, which in retrospect
was not a good way of looking atit because South Africa is truly
amazing. And I think that it's
underappreciated by so many people, people who live there
(08:54):
and people who have left. But really, it's a stark
contrast of how that question isframed, of why a person would
leave wherever it is that they happen to be staying.
Yeah, I really think so, becauseI think that in South Africa
it's such a common dream to leave.
And I think that in the US, nobody's dreaming of leaving
(09:14):
because they're all like, everyone's dreaming of coming
here. So why would why would you
possibly dream of leaving? And I think it's just such a
shock to the system, especially then because this is 15 years
ago now. So yeah, this was 15 years ago
where people weren't doing this and it just wasn't common for
(09:35):
people to move away. And I don't think I even knew
anyone beside my high school best friend who moved to Kenya.
He's the only person that I knewwho had moved away.
And maybe that a bit easier for me too, because I already knew
someone had. But it was very common for
people to say there's something wrong with you if you want to
leave. And there was a big brouhaha in
(09:58):
your community about that, to the extent where people assume
that you were homeless. Yeah, so that's a fun story, but
it was years that I was living abroad.
So first I did this one year andthen I was just going to travel
and then I was going to come back.
But I got a job in Australia andstaying in Australia and then
(10:20):
moving to lots of different countries a lot of the way
before I ended up here. And for years, people assumed
that I was homeless and would see my mom in the department
store or the supermarket. And you're like, oh, I heard
about Liz. What a shame.
(10:40):
She was doing so well. But now she's just drifting.
Is she office? I don't know.
Because that has to be the explanation.
Something terrible must have gone wrong for you to have left
home, and who knows what part ofthe world you've been thrown
into and how you're suffering over there, because nothing
(11:01):
could be better than what it is we've got right now here.
Exactly. And like all credits to my mom,
she totally laughed it off and she thought it was really funny
and would always tell me when that happened.
But it was a thing where there was no universe in which someone
thought that I could leave the US and have a successful life.
Yeah, because you were flourishing at that time.
(11:22):
You were developing, you were growing, you were building a
life. That is really what it is that
we are living right now. That's where it started.
But I wasn't taking those boxes,right?
I wasn't married, I didn't have kids, I didn't have these
trophies to hang and show. This is the progress that I've
(11:43):
made on what you think I should be doing.
But that is it, isn't it? That's almost a universal
standard of how people are doing.
How many children do you have? How long have you been married?
Like how long have you served atthis one particular company?
It's really like, I feel a very old school way of looking at
things. But it feels as though we
(12:04):
haven't really developed a new way of measuring success and
happiness for a person's life even today.
Because anywhere that you go, one of the things that they
first ask you is like, how long have you been married?
You know, and if you're single and you're above the age of 30
globally, people tend to have something to say.
(12:25):
And if you haven't got any kids,it'll be even worse the older
you get. It's such a difficult thing to
negotiate because you're trying to explain to people that it's
possible for us to not live the cookie cutter life but still be
successful in a way that allows us to be happy and to achieve
things and to experience life and make friends and develop
(12:49):
relationships. And people just don't seem to
understand that it's possible outside of that microcosmic
existence that most of them live.
It's a weird thing and. It's cultural too, because in
different places there's different standard questions.
So in South Africa they're asking, are you married?
(13:09):
How many kids do you have immediately?
Versus in New York, they're asking what do you do?
Yeah, Korean is. More important, one
neighborhood. How much do you make for your
blood kids? Yeah, all those questions are
asked right away versus in a place like Ireland where we
happen to be right now, no one'sasking you what you do.
No one's even. No one's asking you if you're
married. No one's asking you if you're
out. And we haven't been asked if we
(13:30):
have kids at all by anyone sincewe got here.
And it's really interesting, I think of what the values are
because it's really more of, oh,you're going for a hike.
Like, do you hike often? Do you like going for hikes?
Like, tell me about this, Tell me about that.
And I think that the conversation is so much more in
the moment versus almost South Africa and New York are really
(13:56):
like, what have you achieved so far so that I can understand
what you've achieved and then I can kind of place you.
Yeah, because I think that's that placing part of it I think
is such an important thing. And I don't like that because
what it does is it puts you in aposition where you need to
justify how much respect you might deserve, what kind of
treatment you're owed, what kindof conversation is going to
(14:19):
follow, whether or not you can be included in the social
happenings going forward, what people might think of.
It's such a loaded and intense question.
And I really dislike it because when I'm in America and people
ask me what do you do for a living?
The question isn't asked as a prompt to understand you better,
(14:42):
it's a prompt to understand where you fit in in the social
hierarchy. And I find that to be so
uncomfortable because I don't think that that's the right way
of living. Then what makes it even worse is
the fact that I'm really bad about Tooting my own horn.
So I really don't talk much about my career achievements or
my abilities on an academic level.
(15:04):
So people tend to leave the conversation thinking that I'm
not really much of anything. And it becomes difficult for me
to look in the mirror sometimes to negate that perspective
because I haven't said or done anything to actually fight that,
you know? And it's tough.
It's tough sometimes. Yeah, I feel exactly the same in
(15:25):
South Africa where I tell peoplethat I don't have children and
you get this look and it's like you, it's like.
What's wrong with you? What?
Like, oh, it feels so bad for you or like, oh, say something's
wrong with you or you poor unfortunate soul or like, oh,
like, what a life. I can't imagine how miserable
(15:46):
you must be. I I didn't say anything.
I didn't do anything. And I'm just now standing here
like, oh, OK. And, and the the sad thing about
it is that the people who are carrying on this way don't even
realize that that's what they'reactually doing because they're
inside that little circle of life.
And I don't know if it's fair tobe upset with them because maybe
(16:12):
we would have felt the same way if we didn't leave our corporate
jobs when we did. And we did get married as early
as they expected us to get married.
And we did have children at the age that they expected us to
have children. Maybe we would have looked at
other people in a funny way if they didn't achieve that too, if
that had been our lives. And that's a tough thing.
(16:33):
I think that's maybe trying to be a bit more empathetic from
our side to try and understand the situation.
That's exactly where this question of what are you running
away from comes from because it's so rooted in the person
who's asking it, thinking this is the line that we're supposed
to walk on. This is the path, this is the
(16:56):
direction that we are all going in and you're not.
So what happened? And like what's wrong with you
that you are not walking in the direction that we are all
walking? Well, I think it's interesting
because if someone is to say to you, what are you running away
from, my answer immediately in agut reaction kind of way is to
(17:18):
say nothing. I'm not running away from
anything. Exactly.
That's the defense. Oh yeah, it's a, it's, you have
to be defensive because I feel like it's quite an attacking
kind of question. But if I was to ask myself the
question, which is primarily theonly time I ever need to answer
that question, it becomes a lot more personal and becomes a lot
more of a vulnerable and emotional answer.
(17:40):
Then tell us, So what? What do you personally think
you're running away from? I think running away from that
previous life that I had wasn't necessarily based on anything
practical or anything that's weird or anything that's
strange. But if I am to ask myself the
(18:01):
question of what did I run away from, I think in being honest
with myself and everyone who's listening to this is I had never
been a different person. I'd always just been who I was
from going to school as a young child and developing the way
that I developed in the social circles and scenarios that I did
(18:24):
and just living and growing and getting more educated, getting a
job, starting relationships, ending relationships, and being
the person that I had always been.
And I got to the stage, I feel, where I realized that if I was
ever going to be anything different, I probably wouldn't
(18:45):
be able to do that in the place that I was in.
And for me to become something else, maybe it would have been
good, maybe it would have been bad.
I would have needed to leave my current situation.
And that's what I did because I felt as though the person who I
was was defined by the life thatI had lived.
(19:07):
And that was the career I had, the friends that I had, the
things that I did, how I lived. And it was also predictable.
It was also laid out just the way that you were talking about
how your life could have turned out.
I had gone a lot further down that road than you and I had
(19:32):
engaged in relationships. I've gotten married by 28.
I had started a very promising corporate career that would have
taken me further along down thatpath with success, with
prosperity and wealth. But it was very much the cookie
cutter life that was waiting forme and wasn't necessarily bad.
(19:57):
But I don't know if that would have been any.
Real exploration of who I am as a person, who I could be, what I
could do, what I could experience, how I could feel.
And I got tired of that and. You always question whether or
not that life fit you. Do you feel like in your early
(20:20):
20s you wondered? Or were you just too busy going
along that path with everyone else that you didn't even think
about it? It never made sense to me.
It never made sense to me. Not one day, not one second.
Because it always felt unfulfilling.
It was never a situation where Iknew that this is what I was
(20:41):
doing because it felt good and because I felt like I was in the
right place. It was always, I'm doing this
because I feel as though this iswhat I'm supposed to be doing.
It seems as though everyone around me is quite encouraging
of me doing this because they want to be doing it too, and I
might be doing it and maybe sometimes doing it better than a
(21:02):
lot of other people. And they seem to be quite
impressed with this. So I must be doing a good job.
Let me keep on going. My parents seem to be quite
proud of the achievements that Iwas.
I was achieving the places that I was going, the people who I
was hanging out with, everythingseemed to be going that way, but
it didn't feel right I they were.
(21:22):
Part of it that felt right, likeI'm sure I felt good.
You have good days, you have, you have good things happen, you
have good experiences. Absolutely.
That's I think the trickiness ofit is really getting to the
point where you're asking yourself if it's worth it
because there is enough good forit to not be a complete loss.
So if you've got anything pushing back of being like,
(21:44):
maybe I shouldn't be here, it's being tempered by I had a really
good day at the office today. And you ask yourself, well, if I
was to give up having this good day at the office, what would I
really have? Maybe I would just be sitting
there being unfulfilled and not having a good day at the office.
Maybe I'd just be like unemployed, sitting in a field
and being unfulfilled and unsuccessful.
(22:07):
So you just keep on going and you keep on pushing to see how
far this can go. Maybe at some point it'll start
feeling fulfilling. Maybe it'll start feeling like
you're achieving something and that you're in the right place.
And I met some amazing people, some people who I'm still in
contact with, some people who I,I, I flat out love.
And they're a big part of my life.
(22:27):
And I will always be grateful for sharing that time with them.
But I don't know if maybe I needto accept that as having been
the experience that I needed to have for me to escape and start
again, so that I can maybe appreciate this new life more
and look back and know that I haven't left something that I
(22:51):
would regret having left. I feel like this is such a big
difference between you and I in that I was 10 years younger than
you were when when I left, but also that I wasn't leaving to
live somewhere else. I was just going to travel for a
year. And I think that in my mind, it
wasn't this like big decision ofI'm going to start a new life in
(23:16):
this new place. That just kind of happened
because I had spent that time traveling and learning about
myself and figuring out what I wanted, but I didn't have any of
that. When I'm still living that life,
I think that I couldn't have hadthose thoughts when I was living
that life, I couldn't see outside of it enough to know how
(23:39):
much I didn't fit. I just felt so antsy that I
wanted to travel. I wanted to travel, I wanted to
travel and I had 10 vacation days a year and I got to do 1
international trip per year and it just felt stifling.
And it was all I could think about.
And like I were saying, like I had a lot of great days.
(24:00):
I had a lot of great weeks. I had, I had fun, I had friends.
I didn't have a bad life. I just had this need to travel
that was inside of me that felt like it was just banging against
all of the walls desperate to get out.
And I was like, OK, I'm going torelease the valve and I'm going
to travel for one year and then I'll be able to settle again and
(24:23):
everything will be fine. Absolutely, because now as a 40
year old, it makes sense why theolder people in our lives when
we were younger said to us the best time to travel is when
you're young. Because when you do it at that
age, you don't have as much thatyou need to give up.
And I stick with that because I think that it's wisdom.
(24:45):
I think that it's good knowledgeto be giving out to young
people. If you do want to explore that,
go and explore it when you're younger.
You've got a far better opportunity if you change your
mind to go back and live a more conventional life and bold,
rather than building a conventional life and then
(25:07):
giving it all up and starting again in a more adventurous kind
of life. It doesn't mean that you're
giving everything up in terms ofany level of financial security
or career, but you would have spent a lot more time building a
life as you're younger, going into an older age and then
needing to change quite drastically.
And that's where a lot of peopledo struggle to deal with the
(25:29):
change of getting rid of previous habits, previous
securities, you know, careers that have built and now you need
to change. It's a lot more tricky.
It's it's easily possible, not easily possible.
I shouldn't say that it's possible, but it's easier when
you're young. And I'm so glad that you got the
opportunity to do it when you were younger because I think you
(25:52):
got more momentum Foster, than most people would.
But. I really feel like the best time
is now. That's true.
That's true. Are.
Oh, yes, yes, you're right. Thinking should I do this?
Should I try this? Is it?
Is it going to be difficult? Yeah.
Whether if you're 18 or if you're 78, it's going to be
(26:12):
difficult. But it's not going to be any
easier next year. In fact, it might be a little
bit harder next year and a little bit harder than that the
year after that, and harder and harder and harder.
So the best time is now. Now.
If you've got that feeling inside of your heart, you know
it well enough to know that it'ssomething that's trying to take
you somewhere. You really need to listen to
(26:34):
that feeling. You don't need to do everything
immediately and make any reckless decisions, but that
feeling in your heart is wantingto take you somewhere.
And if you were to listen to it,I don't know if there's a pot of
gold at the end of that journey,but there's a very high
likelihood that you will find some level of happiness and
(26:59):
fulfillment that wouldn't be there if you didn't have that
feeling. And I really would recommend
that do it in a smart of a way as possible.
Make sure that you're taking care of your basic needs, you
know, plan for the future, think, think carefully, be wise
about the move. But really, I, I couldn't, I
(27:22):
couldn't hold myself back from encouraging people who feel that
because the alternative is to continue living this way with
that feeling in your heart and your tummy and knowing that
you're not at a place where you're living the life that you
were supposed to live. That's not worth it.
But. Honestly, like bringing us back
(27:42):
to our topic of our question we're coming away from, I think,
why are you feeling this? Why are you feeling this in your
heart? I mean your stomach and
everything. Why are you feeling like you
need to leave? And this is a question of are
you running away from something in your current life or are you
feeling like you need to add something to your life and
(28:04):
you're actually running toward new experiences or something
else? Because I know for a fact that
we have met people on both sidesof that floor, and the people
who are running away from their current situation are almost
always really unhappy when they arrive in their new situation.
(28:27):
And I think this is time to ask the therapist.
But Ryan, does physically running away from your problems
ever solve them? No, it stays with you.
It's part of your life. It's part of who you are.
Because if you haven't found some way of dealing with the
problems that you're facing, there's no reason for them to
(28:48):
ever leave you. And when I say deal with your
situation, deal with the problems that you're dealing
with, it's not necessarily solving them or just getting
over them and forgetting about them.
It's finding some way to resolvethem in a way that allows you to
be happy and live the life you're supposed to be living,
taking steps forward, learning, growing, all of those things.
(29:11):
And coming back to being someonefrom South Africa, it's one of
the things that I've really struggled with.
I know we talked about it a little bit with Ryan Brock in
one of our previous episodes. But one of the things that
really breaks my heart, it honestly makes me really sad is
when I speak to fellow S Africans who have left South
(29:32):
Africa and during the course of a conversation, asking them why
they left. Because I don't think it's a
difficult question to ask or an unfair question to ask someone.
But the response is often so brutal and so sad because it's
encased in this really negative perspective on South Africa and
(29:58):
why they felt like they needed to leave.
So they are negative feelings towards other people in South
Africa from a different racial group.
There's problems with the government, there's problems
with the way that people do things.
There's problems with the quality of the life that they
had. And it's not framed in a way
(30:19):
that indicates that that person was happy to be living in South
Africa but needs to improve their lives by moving somewhere
else. It's just, I escaped this place
because it was so terrible and I'm so glad that I'm not there.
And anyone who's still there sucks.
And really, that really makes meso sad and really so angry.
(30:41):
And I know a lot of the people who feel that way probably would
never own up to it because it's such a poop way of looking at
the world. But it's so common.
It's so common. And I, I, you know, if you're a
South African and you've left South Africa to pursue something
bigger and greater and you miss South Africa because you know
(31:04):
how amazing it is and you love it, I'm on the same page as you.
If you're someone who's got nothing but bad things to say
about the place that you're from, you probably weren't
having a good time then and you're probably not going to
have a good time now because that's not the way you should be
looking at life. And I'll extend this to you,
Liz, to say, man, American people who are leaving America
(31:27):
right now and moving to places around the world are very
difficult to talk to sometimes when you ask why they left.
Unfortunately, it's something that South Africa and the US
have in common right now of these immigrants and experts who
have left and just go on a rant to talk about how terrible their
(31:51):
country is. And for the case of Americans,
it's it's both directions politically that I hate Trump.
Then he has done this and that and it's so terrible or these
liberals are doing this and thenit's so terrible.
But it's it's the same really. It's this rant about how
everything is so terrible. And I just think it's such a
(32:13):
skewed way of looking at things.There's good and there's bad in
every single country, just like there's good and bad in every
person and place and thing and everything in this world.
And when you only talk about theterrible things that are in the
country that you came from, you're not even seeing what's in
(32:34):
the country that you're in. And I think that the saddest
part of this is that most of those people, because all they
think about were the terrible things about the country that
they left, didn't do enough research before they came to
their new country, were completely unprepared to come to
their new country and end up needing to go back.
(32:56):
And that is when their life truly tailspins because they
hated it so much. Everything was miserable.
Everything was the worst ever. And then they tried somewhere
new, but they didn't prepare forit.
They didn't know what to do. They didn't embrace their life
there at all because they just have this really negative
attitude of what they escaped and they couldn't make it work.
(33:17):
And when you can't make it work in a new country, the most
common thing that people do is, is they go back home.
So now they're back. All they've done is complain
about this place for months or years.
And it's just, I can't imagine how difficult that life must be.
Yeah, it's a life without any balance.
(33:39):
And that's the problem, you know, at any stage in life, if
you find yourself leaning towards 1 edge of an extreme, I
don't know if you're in the right place because as much as
they are these very difficult things to face in every country,
you have to recognize the fact that they are good things too.
(34:02):
So I'm from South Africa, I willspeak from the South African
perspective because I don't feellike I'm qualified to talk for
any other country. But crime and corruption in
South Africa is really bad. It's really not good.
And I'm disappointed, I'm sad, I'm angry.
(34:22):
It's become something that's robbed that country of so much
of what it could be. Admitting that hope is not lost,
there is still a future for thatcountry and I think that they
could be something great in store for it and I'm excited for
that. But that's the point, is that
there's two ways of looking at this, the good and there's the
(34:42):
bad. And if I am to move to Portugal
like I have and look back and say there was only bad things in
South Africa, that would be so unfair to so many amazing people
who built such an amazing country.
That gave me the opportunity to get my brown backside to
(35:02):
Portugal. So I can't talk crap about South
Africa because it's been so goodto me.
It gave me the opportunity to succeed on an international
level. So it couldn't be that bad.
And there's a reason why I miss so many things from that
country. It's there's a reason why I wake
up early to watch the Springboksplay rugby on weekends.
(35:26):
There's a reason why I feel the need to bribe whenever I get the
opportunity to bribe. That means BBQ.
That's an important part of whatmy life is and I wouldn't have
that if it wasn't for South Africa in the mix of all the bad
things that are there too, you know?
Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I think that there are so many
things that I was able to do because of the country that I
(35:51):
was born in. I think that there are so many
things that I truly do love. Just last week in August and we
talked about the things that we absolutely love and there's so
many of them. This there are also things that
are broken in both of our countries.
I think that for me, the healthcare system is the one
that hits home the hardest and the experiences that I've had
(36:13):
with family and friends, trying to use the US healthcare system
is really, really difficult. And I think that for me, I
wasn't necessarily running away from that healthcare system, but
I was definitely running toward universal healthcare.
(36:34):
And I was definitely very happy and definitely I am very happy
to live in a place today where no one is turned away from the
hospital for lack of funds, where you are able to see a
doctor when you need to see a doctor and never worry.
(36:55):
So if you're wondering what thatwas, that was Henry who gave the
biggest shake and then the biggest drink of water because
he believes that hydration is part of a healthy lifestyle and
we support him yet. But yeah, getting back to it,
Liz, absolutely. There are definitely things that
we've moved towards that have made our lives so much better by
(37:18):
being different from the places that we're from.
And I don't feel as though I should feel guilty about
navigating towards a place that gives me those opportunities
because I want my life to be better.
And if South Africa gave that tome, I would be equally as
grateful. But Portugal happens to be
(37:39):
giving us this amazing healthcare.
We are able to walk outside at crazy times during the day and
we wouldn't be able to do that where we're from.
Yeah, I think this is the thing of it's fine to be upset with
things from the place that you're from.
It's normal. And if you weren't upset with
(38:00):
something from the place that you're from, you'd probably
lying to yourself. But there are great things about
that place, wherever it is. And we can't paint an entire
country with millions of people living there as being bad.
Because really, you're missing the bigger picture.
And I think it's more about you than it is about that place.
(38:21):
But that's what we started with,you know, I, I think going back
to that question of what did I run away from?
And really it just comes back tome looking in the mirror and
saying I did run away from something, the old person that I
used to be. And there's a lot that's wrapped
up around that, in it being superficial on a certain level
(38:47):
of wanting to be a new person and accept a new lifestyle and
learn more about myself and growand educate myself in a
different context. But then there's also that depth
where you look there and you say, who was I being that
person, living that life? I didn't want to be that person
(39:08):
anymore and I wanted to see who else I could be in this world.
And it's been massively educational to me, understanding
how much of a small fish I am and how big the pond can be.
And then learning further than that, how there are certain
parts of me which are truly big and fits on a global
(39:33):
perspective. And I need to lean into those
things. And comparing my experiences
with people who have had vastly different lives to me, and then
understanding where I fit in in terms of my perspectives and the
levels at which I'm good or bad at things.
And it's such a deep pot to be boiling in.
(39:57):
And I absolutely love it. And.
If you're looking for that kind of experience, I think that it's
one of the great things you can do with your life.
I agree completely. I think that it's it's great.
I think it enables you to see parts of yourself that you never
(40:17):
would have seen otherwise. All right, one more on our topic
of what are you running away from.
Another extreme that we have seen with equally unfammered
people as a result are those whotreat their new country as
perfect in every way. So we've seen this so many times
(40:38):
in Portugal where people move here and they wax poetic about
how everything is very nice. And if you bring up any struggle
or issue that you're facing, these people will tell you that
you are wrong. This is the best place on earth.
You just need to look on the bright side because it's so
bright and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this country.
(41:01):
And those people are going to bejust as upset as the people who
think that everything is wrong with the country that they came
from, because reality is that there are a lot of difficult
things in every place. I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna say this because I feel asthough you brought up this point
because you know that I made this mistake myself.
(41:22):
So I so I don't feel as though Iwas negative about South Africa
because I don't think I've ever done that.
You weren't. So I was definitely overly
optimistic about Portugal in ourfirst year in the country, but.
This isn't about you. This wasn't about other.
People, no, the reason why I'm saying it, it's, I feel like I
can identify to a certain extent.
(41:42):
So those people are doing it fora particular reason of needing
to be polarized in their, in their perspectives.
And that it. But I also think that there's an
added element of when you come to a place that's not your
homeland, which is full of problems and terrible and all of
those things, you can't hold yourself back from praising
(42:03):
every little thing about the newplace because you know nothing
about the place. And So what ends up happening is
that you're standing there thinking, well, this is at least
better than what I remember fromthe last place that I was
living. So this must be the best place
in the world. And honestly for me, like I
said, I wasn't really part of this cohort that Liz is talking
(42:24):
about, but I really was overly optimistic.
And I promise it only took like eight months before I realized
how much Portugal reflects the idea that there's good and
there's bad. And please, if you don't want to
acknowledge the fact that there are bad things about Portugal,
(42:45):
you're going to be very disappointed because it's going
to slap you in the face. Because as good as things can be
in Portugal, and they can be really good, they can also be
really bad. Go back and listen to our
episode on and talk to Portugal and blessed to hear Ryan going
very long and. I don't have the energy today to
do it again, but like here are there are things that I can talk
(43:07):
to you about for hours about howgreat Portugal is, but then I
will also talk for the same number of hours about stuff
which will make your toes cool in terms of how bad it can be.
But I think this is the whole point, right?
That if you're coming to a placein your life, everything of
where I came from was terrible, and now this place, everything
is perfect. Something is going to happen.
(43:30):
You're going to experience something in your new country
and that bubble is going to burst and you're going to fall
so hard onto the ground of reality, and then what do you do
from there? Absolutely.
But that's The thing is that it's not about the country, is
it? It's about the people.
Exactly. And that I think is maybe the
(43:51):
biggest point of our episode today is that it's so dependent
on who you are and how you feel and what your perspective is.
If you don't have a perspective that encourages positivity,
courageous balance, looks for opportunity, looks for optimism
(44:12):
and happiness, if you're not looking for those things, man,
it doesn't matter where you're going to go.
You're going to have a tough time.
But if you are willing to stick to those values and keep your
chin up and work hard and try and get through everything with
a smile on your face as best as you can and cry when you're
(44:32):
supposed to, it's going to be really something for you in your
life. Running toward who you want to
be running toward, not just OK, there's less crime in this
country. So I'm going to, I'm going to go
there because that's what I want.
You're never going to find the right place if that's the
perspective you're. You're going to keep on looking
(44:52):
because you will leave South Africa because the crime is so
bad. You're going to come to Portugal
and you're going to discover that the driving is shocking.
And then you're going to need togo to Dubai and then struggle in
the heat. And then you're going to need to
go to Denmark and struggle in the cold.
And you're just going to keep on.
And you're not going to feel theway that you're supposed to feel
(45:16):
in this amazing experience that life is.
Yeah, exactly. I think balance and perspective
and really just knowing that youare figuring out who you are and
what you want in this life. All right, so we have a new
segment on Expats Listen and NASA become real listeners.
(45:39):
We are able to listen to other expats about their experiences
and we are super psyched for this.
We really hope that you are too.And each week we are going to
ask the question and we will play some of the responses that
we get from our listeners. And if you want your voice heard
on a future episode, either sendus Adm on Instagram, Xbox
(46:00):
Listen, or send us an e-mail at Xbox listen@gmail.com.
And we'll send you the question for the next week.
And hopefully we'll be able to get your answer onto this
podcast soon. So this week our question is,
what is your response when someone asks what are you
running away from? All right.
(46:21):
Our first answer is from Mossimo, originally from Italy
and currently living in Canada. I didn't run away from anything.
There was not a drama or a fire right to escape.
I moved because I saw better opportunities.
I'm driven by curiosity. The little questions that won't
(46:42):
leave me alone is like what can I learn next?
Where can I grow faster and whatnew experiences can I have?
Experiences. Here is a keyword.
When those questions, you know, get loud in my head, I listen.
I look around, talk to people, thought it through and realized.
And I realized there were placesthat, you know, fit my strength,
(47:03):
curiosity, and values better. It wasn't so it wasn't an
escape. It was moving towards something
that makes more sense for me. Driven by curiosity.
Here is once again a keyword. Sometimes I wish I asked myself
fewer questions and just, you know, could be happier, more
satisfied with what I have. But that's unfortunate.
For me, it's a curse. Curiosity keeps me moving.
(47:27):
Know how feelings about the past.
I'm very grateful for it. I'm just excited about what's
next because it lines up. We walk with who I'm becoming
and experience. I want all forward.
Well, I really wasn't inbound somuch.
I think that what he's saying about curiosity, it's exactly
how I feel that I just always want to find out more.
(47:51):
And you? Yeah, I think that's The thing
is that it's really such a deep thing for so many people.
And I love the uniqueness of it and how they experience it and
how they respond to the questionfrom to other people and how
they have might sometimes have adifferent answer to themselves.
And it's really, really cool. Really cool.
(48:12):
Right Next up we have Bunka. She is originally from Romania
and she is currently living in Portugal.
To answer to the question what Iam running away from, whatever
it is I'm taking myself with. So I may run from lots of things
(48:34):
that I don't like, like for example, stress or stupidity or
fanatism or other things. But sometimes I feel like I'm
running for myself from from myself also.
(48:58):
Yeah, I think this one really told for me as well, because
it's you really are running fromyourself and to yourself because
there are things that you need to figure out along the way.
And yeah, there are things that you don't like, but also, what
do you want? I, I, I think I could say that's
(49:18):
the best. I, I think that's one of those
things to accept is that wherever you are, that's where
you are and whatever you've taken with you is what you've
got with you. And accepting that is a huge
part of understanding what leaving a place is and arriving
in a new place is like. And last, we have Ian,
(49:39):
originally from South Africa andcurrently living in the United
Kingdom. So this is a great question.
I think my answer is going to beslightly unconventional because
I didn't necessarily need South Africa or diverse economists run
away from or run from anything. I was already traveling the
(50:01):
world for about 5 years. And for me, it was more a case
of deciding where did I want to settle after traveling.
And so it's not necessarily a case of running away from, it's
more what are you running towards?
And so I guess it's what could, you know, what could London, for
(50:22):
example, after all, Europe off of that that South Africa put
in. So I suppose, and, and I think
it's, it's a lot of what a lot of the expats appreciate, right?
It's being in Europe and being able to travel to so many
amazing destinations for a very affordable amount.
You know, in South Africa, people would have to work really
hard and save up a lot to be able to take a trip to Europe.
(50:43):
And, and I think I just wanted to be able to continue to
explore cool cities and cool places.
So that was a huge thing. And then I also think you know,
job opportunities in, in the UK,you know, if you are willing to
put. In the hard work, there's.
There's a lot of good opportunities here.
So I think those would be the two things.
There's probably a bunch more that I could go through, but the
(51:06):
two things for me was, was thosetwo things the ability to travel
and, you know, some sort of job security and you know, knowing
that my skills would be appreciated and well paid.
So that's my answer. Exactly.
I think this is the whole thing of running toward and figuring
(51:27):
out what you want. And I think it's so interesting
that Ian's story kind of mirrorsmine in some ways, where he left
when he was quite young and he moved around a bit before he
decided to settle somewhere. But where he came from, people
weren't asking what are you running away from?
They kind of understood. And I think this is such a point
(51:49):
of privilege where me coming from, such a privileged place,
people are like, why would you leave?
What are you running away from? Yeah.
And I think the longer you spendin that world of privilege, the
less you think about things thatway.
You know, life isn't framed in what are you escaping from.
It starts becoming more about what can, what am I taking from
(52:11):
this experience? What am I learning from?
What am I growing from and wheream I going?
You know what's next? I.
Think that's a better way to look at it, right?
I think it's a healthier way to be viewing your life and where
you're going and what you're trying to achieve.
Yeah, it sounds much healthier, and I really hope more people
can get to experience that. I think coming from maybe more
(52:32):
difficult circumstances means that you have to go through some
kind of process of moving towards more positive thinking
about what it is that you're taking from your life
experience. But yeah, that's super cool.
Well, that's it for this week. Thank you so much to you all for
sharing this time with us and discussing what people are
(52:52):
running away from when they makethe big move to another country.
It was really a pleasure to talkto our friends who have had that
experience and to hear a little bit about what they went through
in making the decisions that they made.
And we would love to hear from you too.
So please contact us on Instagram.
We are an expats listen on instagramandweareanexpatslisten@gmail.com
(53:18):
on e-mail and we'd love to hear from you and try to understand a
little bit more about what otherpeople are experiencing.
And we hope you have a great week and we look forward to
chatting with you next time. Bye bye.
Welcome to Ex Cuts Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we share the ups and downs, the struggles and celebrations of
living abroad. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz. So what was your week, Ryan?
I've had a good week, we've donesome travel across Ireland, it's
been super fun. I managed to get a surf in but I
(00:21):
did have a short cold which really wasn't too great in this
rainy weather but I'm feeling a lot better today.
So happy to be here and enjoyingthe greenery and the rain of
Ireland. What a wonderful place.
How was your week, Liz? Yeah, my week was really good.
It's been very nice to be in Ireland and even though it's
raining, still getting some somehikes in.
(00:44):
And definitely MVP award to Ryanfor doing the vast majority of
the driving in order to get us here.
So I think the cold was going tocome from the mount of.
I've been so tired but it's beensuch a good trip so far.
Nice road trip. So what are we talking about
this week, Ryan? This week, it's a very
(01:06):
interesting topic that I think effects a lot of people in
different ways, and I think it'sgoing to be really deep to go
into this, to understand people.And the topic really is, what
are you running away from when you pursue the expat life?
So what is it that you're leaving behind?
(01:27):
What is it that you're going towards?
What is the question that you'reasking yourself?
And what will that answer look like?
Have you been asked that question, Liz?
Right, I've been asked this question so many times, I think
it's really interesting. Maybe this is time for my rant
already in the episode, but I have been asked this question.
(01:50):
What are you running away from? More times than I can count, but
especially in my 20s when I quita good job in New York to
travel. I just, I think there's
something really scary about someone living a life that is so
polar opposite to everything that you believed was quote UN
quote, right? So I was a good student.
(02:11):
I went to an Ivy League university.
I graduated, I got a good job inNew York.
I worked my way up the ladder and everything was exactly as it
should be. But then I quit.
So I stepped off of that life escalator and then everyone else
was on, and it made no sense to any of the people around me.
Even my boss at the time was convinced that I'd be knocking
(02:31):
on his door in a few weeks asking for my old job back.
The next steps that I was supposed to do were to get
married, buy a house, have some kids, keep progressing my New
York career until one day I retired and then maybe I could
travel internationally and do some of these fun things that I
had wanted to do. And no one can understand why I
(02:52):
didn't want that because they wanted that.
That was the plan. That's what we should all be
doing and that's what they were doing.
So if I didn't want it, it was like there was something wrong
with me. So I think that's where the
question came in, of what are you running away from?
Because maybe I was running awayfrom something that they didn't
(03:13):
know. And then you get to kind of
protect themselves to make sure that that was supposed to happen
to them. And I'm going to be really
honest to you, I think for that first trip, maybe I was running
away a little bit. And I think, like if I dig deep,
like the things that I was really running away from were
this idea of 10 vacation days per year and what it would mean
(03:38):
for my job to define who I was for the rest of my life.
And I was terrified of those things.
And I think that I've only been in the corporate world for a
couple of years and I already saw that.
Like, that was my future and that's where things were headed
and that's where I was going. So I wasn't leaving to, like,
(04:02):
blow up my whole lights and to live abroad forever.
My goal was really to take one single year off.
I was going to travel alone. I was going to see the world a
little bit. And then I was going to settle
back into that life in New York that everyone expected me to
want, except that I didn't. And then that was 2010.
(04:24):
And. You discovered this on the trip.
Completely. I think on a trip I was really
able to look a bit deeper into what I wanted but also what I
didn't want, and I was able to start chasing what I actually
wanted instead of running away from maybe what I was scared of
(04:49):
or what I felt like didn't fit me.
What did you think of the corporate life while you were
doing it? Did you like it?
Did not like it? Was it just something that you
felt you needed to do because that was what was supposed to be
done? I loved it.
I felt powerful. I think that when I was doing
well in my job, I felt like I was good, I was worthy.
(05:13):
I was doing the things that I was supposed to be doing, and I
took a lot of pride in that. I think I've always taken a lot
of time in my work, but I think that in that job in particular,
it was like every milestone thatI hit was like a giant dopamine
hit. And it was like, yes, you're
(05:33):
doing well. You're doing well, but I
couldn't get away from that fearthat is this all there is.
Especially at that age. Yeah, I was young.
When I was 20 something, I was ababy.
So that would have been the commitment you would have made
for the life that you would havehad.
And that was a bit scary. I.
Think so. I think I really didn't see a
(05:57):
way to stop only caring about work unless I completely like.
I didn't see a way to define myself as more than just what I
did in that situation in New York at the time.
I just felt like that's what we were all doing.
(06:20):
Well, I think the other elementsof developing a personality and
life at that age is probably getting married and having a kid
to add to that identity, which Ithink most people do.
Exactly like most people are doing exactly that.
And I didn't want that. I wasn't looking for that.
I honestly, I had no interest inthat in my 20s whatsoever.
(06:45):
And I had done semester at sea back in university.
So I did this ridiculous cruise ship around the world for 100
days where we visited a bunch ofdifferent countries.
And the biggest thing that that taught me was that the world is
smaller than you think and you can actually just show up in a
(07:07):
place and you'll probably be OK.So travel felt easier to me than
maybe it felt to my peers because I had travelled before.
So when I thought of quitting myjob to travel, it seemed really
doable and it seemed really manageable.
(07:29):
And also pretty good at saving money.
And I was making good money at that time.
So I had enough saved up that I could do this and take this year
off. And yeah, like I'm saying, all
it was ever going to be at that time was a year off.
But everyone thought I was running away, everyone.
And I'm saying, like the woman at the grocery store, the woman
(07:52):
at the bank, like I couldn't go anywhere and tell someone my
plan that I was going to quit myjob and taking her to travel.
And I'm so excited. Didn't hear all the places I'm
going to go. And there's like, oh, So what
are you running away from? Wow, I think that sounds so,
(08:12):
that sounds so first world because The thing is, things are
so good, there's no reason for you to leave, which means that
there has to be something that you're running away from for you
to leave the country. And coming from ex third world
developing nation like South Africa, generally people have
(08:32):
framed it in how are you going to escape?
How are you going to find something better and bigger?
And that was how we were taught to think, which in retrospect
was not a good way of looking atit because South Africa is truly
amazing. And I think that it's
underappreciated by so many people, people who live there
(08:54):
and people who have left. But really, it's a stark
contrast of how that question isframed, of why a person would
leave wherever it is that they happen to be staying.
Yeah, I really think so, becauseI think that in South Africa
it's such a common dream to leave.
And I think that in the US, nobody's dreaming of leaving
(09:14):
because they're all like, everyone's dreaming of coming
here. So why would why would you
possibly dream of leaving? And I think it's just such a
shock to the system, especially then because this is 15 years
ago now. So yeah, this was 15 years ago
where people weren't doing this and it just wasn't common for
(09:35):
people to move away. And I don't think I even knew
anyone beside my high school best friend who moved to Kenya.
He's the only person that I knewwho had moved away.
And maybe that a bit easier for me too, because I already knew
someone had. But it was very common for
people to say there's something wrong with you if you want to
leave. And there was a big brouhaha in
(09:58):
your community about that, to the extent where people assume
that you were homeless. Yeah, so that's a fun story, but
it was years that I was living abroad.
So first I did this one year andthen I was just going to travel
and then I was going to come back.
But I got a job in Australia andstaying in Australia and then
(10:20):
moving to lots of different countries a lot of the way
before I ended up here. And for years, people assumed
that I was homeless and would see my mom in the department
store or the supermarket. And you're like, oh, I heard
about Liz. What a shame.
(10:40):
She was doing so well. But now she's just drifting.
Is she office? I don't know.
Because that has to be the explanation.
Something terrible must have gone wrong for you to have left
home, and who knows what part ofthe world you've been thrown
into and how you're suffering over there, because nothing
(11:01):
could be better than what it is we've got right now here.
Exactly. And like all credits to my mom,
she totally laughed it off and she thought it was really funny
and would always tell me when that happened.
But it was a thing where there was no universe in which someone
thought that I could leave the US and have a successful life.
Yeah, because you were flourishing at that time.
(11:22):
You were developing, you were growing, you were building a
life. That is really what it is that
we are living right now. That's where it started.
But I wasn't taking those boxes,right?
I wasn't married, I didn't have kids, I didn't have these
trophies to hang and show. This is the progress that I've
(11:43):
made on what you think I should be doing.
But that is it, isn't it? That's almost a universal
standard of how people are doing.
How many children do you have? How long have you been married?
Like how long have you served atthis one particular company?
It's really like, I feel a very old school way of looking at
things. But it feels as though we
(12:04):
haven't really developed a new way of measuring success and
happiness for a person's life even today.
Because anywhere that you go, one of the things that they
first ask you is like, how long have you been married?
You know, and if you're single and you're above the age of 30
globally, people tend to have something to say.
(12:25):
And if you haven't got any kids,it'll be even worse the older
you get. It's such a difficult thing to
negotiate because you're trying to explain to people that it's
possible for us to not live the cookie cutter life but still be
successful in a way that allows us to be happy and to achieve
things and to experience life and make friends and develop
(12:49):
relationships. And people just don't seem to
understand that it's possible outside of that microcosmic
existence that most of them live.
It's a weird thing and. It's cultural too, because in
different places there's different standard questions.
So in South Africa they're asking, are you married?
(13:09):
How many kids do you have immediately?
Versus in New York, they're asking what do you do?
Yeah, Korean is. More important, one
neighborhood. How much do you make for your
blood kids? Yeah, all those questions are
asked right away versus in a place like Ireland where we
happen to be right now, no one'sasking you what you do.
No one's even. No one's asking you if you're
married. No one's asking you if you're
out. And we haven't been asked if we
(13:30):
have kids at all by anyone sincewe got here.
And it's really interesting, I think of what the values are
because it's really more of, oh,you're going for a hike.
Like, do you hike often? Do you like going for hikes?
Like, tell me about this, Tell me about that.
And I think that the conversation is so much more in
the moment versus almost South Africa and New York are really
(13:56):
like, what have you achieved so far so that I can understand
what you've achieved and then I can kind of place you.
Yeah, because I think that's that placing part of it I think
is such an important thing. And I don't like that because
what it does is it puts you in aposition where you need to
justify how much respect you might deserve, what kind of
treatment you're owed, what kindof conversation is going to
(14:19):
follow, whether or not you can be included in the social
happenings going forward, what people might think of.
It's such a loaded and intense question.
And I really dislike it because when I'm in America and people
ask me what do you do for a living?
The question isn't asked as a prompt to understand you better,
(14:42):
it's a prompt to understand where you fit in in the social
hierarchy. And I find that to be so
uncomfortable because I don't think that that's the right way
of living. Then what makes it even worse is
the fact that I'm really bad about Tooting my own horn.
So I really don't talk much about my career achievements or
my abilities on an academic level.
(15:04):
So people tend to leave the conversation thinking that I'm
not really much of anything. And it becomes difficult for me
to look in the mirror sometimes to negate that perspective
because I haven't said or done anything to actually fight that,
you know? And it's tough.
It's tough sometimes. Yeah, I feel exactly the same in
(15:25):
South Africa where I tell peoplethat I don't have children and
you get this look and it's like you, it's like.
What's wrong with you? What?
Like, oh, it feels so bad for you or like, oh, say something's
wrong with you or you poor unfortunate soul or like, oh,
like, what a life. I can't imagine how miserable
(15:46):
you must be. I I didn't say anything.
I didn't do anything. And I'm just now standing here
like, oh, OK. And, and the the sad thing about
it is that the people who are carrying on this way don't even
realize that that's what they'reactually doing because they're
inside that little circle of life.
And I don't know if it's fair tobe upset with them because maybe
(16:12):
we would have felt the same way if we didn't leave our corporate
jobs when we did. And we did get married as early
as they expected us to get married.
And we did have children at the age that they expected us to
have children. Maybe we would have looked at
other people in a funny way if they didn't achieve that too, if
that had been our lives. And that's a tough thing.
(16:33):
I think that's maybe trying to be a bit more empathetic from
our side to try and understand the situation.
That's exactly where this question of what are you running
away from comes from because it's so rooted in the person
who's asking it, thinking this is the line that we're supposed
to walk on. This is the path, this is the
(16:56):
direction that we are all going in and you're not.
So what happened? And like what's wrong with you
that you are not walking in the direction that we are all
walking? Well, I think it's interesting
because if someone is to say to you, what are you running away
from, my answer immediately in agut reaction kind of way is to
(17:18):
say nothing. I'm not running away from
anything. Exactly.
That's the defense. Oh yeah, it's a, it's, you have
to be defensive because I feel like it's quite an attacking
kind of question. But if I was to ask myself the
question, which is primarily theonly time I ever need to answer
that question, it becomes a lot more personal and becomes a lot
more of a vulnerable and emotional answer.
(17:40):
Then tell us, So what? What do you personally think
you're running away from? I think running away from that
previous life that I had wasn't necessarily based on anything
practical or anything that's weird or anything that's
strange. But if I am to ask myself the
(18:01):
question of what did I run away from, I think in being honest
with myself and everyone who's listening to this is I had never
been a different person. I'd always just been who I was
from going to school as a young child and developing the way
that I developed in the social circles and scenarios that I did
(18:24):
and just living and growing and getting more educated, getting a
job, starting relationships, ending relationships, and being
the person that I had always been.
And I got to the stage, I feel, where I realized that if I was
ever going to be anything different, I probably wouldn't
(18:45):
be able to do that in the place that I was in.
And for me to become something else, maybe it would have been
good, maybe it would have been bad.
I would have needed to leave my current situation.
And that's what I did because I felt as though the person who I
was was defined by the life thatI had lived.
(19:07):
And that was the career I had, the friends that I had, the
things that I did, how I lived. And it was also predictable.
It was also laid out just the way that you were talking about
how your life could have turned out.
I had gone a lot further down that road than you and I had
(19:32):
engaged in relationships. I've gotten married by 28.
I had started a very promising corporate career that would have
taken me further along down thatpath with success, with
prosperity and wealth. But it was very much the cookie
cutter life that was waiting forme and wasn't necessarily bad.
(19:57):
But I don't know if that would have been any.
Real exploration of who I am as a person, who I could be, what I
could do, what I could experience, how I could feel.
And I got tired of that and. You always question whether or
not that life fit you. Do you feel like in your early
(20:20):
20s you wondered? Or were you just too busy going
along that path with everyone else that you didn't even think
about it? It never made sense to me.
It never made sense to me. Not one day, not one second.
Because it always felt unfulfilling.
It was never a situation where Iknew that this is what I was
(20:41):
doing because it felt good and because I felt like I was in the
right place. It was always, I'm doing this
because I feel as though this iswhat I'm supposed to be doing.
It seems as though everyone around me is quite encouraging
of me doing this because they want to be doing it too, and I
might be doing it and maybe sometimes doing it better than a
(21:02):
lot of other people. And they seem to be quite
impressed with this. So I must be doing a good job.
Let me keep on going. My parents seem to be quite
proud of the achievements that Iwas.
I was achieving the places that I was going, the people who I
was hanging out with, everythingseemed to be going that way, but
it didn't feel right I they were.
(21:22):
Part of it that felt right, likeI'm sure I felt good.
You have good days, you have, you have good things happen, you
have good experiences. Absolutely.
That's I think the trickiness ofit is really getting to the
point where you're asking yourself if it's worth it
because there is enough good forit to not be a complete loss.
So if you've got anything pushing back of being like,
(21:44):
maybe I shouldn't be here, it's being tempered by I had a really
good day at the office today. And you ask yourself, well, if I
was to give up having this good day at the office, what would I
really have? Maybe I would just be sitting
there being unfulfilled and not having a good day at the office.
Maybe I'd just be like unemployed, sitting in a field
and being unfulfilled and unsuccessful.
(22:07):
So you just keep on going and you keep on pushing to see how
far this can go. Maybe at some point it'll start
feeling fulfilling. Maybe it'll start feeling like
you're achieving something and that you're in the right place.
And I met some amazing people, some people who I'm still in
contact with, some people who I,I, I flat out love.
And they're a big part of my life.
(22:27):
And I will always be grateful for sharing that time with them.
But I don't know if maybe I needto accept that as having been
the experience that I needed to have for me to escape and start
again, so that I can maybe appreciate this new life more
and look back and know that I haven't left something that I
(22:51):
would regret having left. I feel like this is such a big
difference between you and I in that I was 10 years younger than
you were when when I left, but also that I wasn't leaving to
live somewhere else. I was just going to travel for a
year. And I think that in my mind, it
wasn't this like big decision ofI'm going to start a new life in
(23:16):
this new place. That just kind of happened
because I had spent that time traveling and learning about
myself and figuring out what I wanted, but I didn't have any of
that. When I'm still living that life,
I think that I couldn't have hadthose thoughts when I was living
that life, I couldn't see outside of it enough to know how
(23:39):
much I didn't fit. I just felt so antsy that I
wanted to travel. I wanted to travel, I wanted to
travel and I had 10 vacation days a year and I got to do 1
international trip per year and it just felt stifling.
And it was all I could think about.
And like I were saying, like I had a lot of great days.
(24:00):
I had a lot of great weeks. I had, I had fun, I had friends.
I didn't have a bad life. I just had this need to travel
that was inside of me that felt like it was just banging against
all of the walls desperate to get out.
And I was like, OK, I'm going torelease the valve and I'm going
to travel for one year and then I'll be able to settle again and
(24:23):
everything will be fine. Absolutely, because now as a 40
year old, it makes sense why theolder people in our lives when
we were younger said to us the best time to travel is when
you're young. Because when you do it at that
age, you don't have as much thatyou need to give up.
And I stick with that because I think that it's wisdom.
(24:45):
I think that it's good knowledgeto be giving out to young
people. If you do want to explore that,
go and explore it when you're younger.
You've got a far better opportunity if you change your
mind to go back and live a more conventional life and bold,
rather than building a conventional life and then
(25:07):
giving it all up and starting again in a more adventurous kind
of life. It doesn't mean that you're
giving everything up in terms ofany level of financial security
or career, but you would have spent a lot more time building a
life as you're younger, going into an older age and then
needing to change quite drastically.
And that's where a lot of peopledo struggle to deal with the
(25:29):
change of getting rid of previous habits, previous
securities, you know, careers that have built and now you need
to change. It's a lot more tricky.
It's it's easily possible, not easily possible.
I shouldn't say that it's possible, but it's easier when
you're young. And I'm so glad that you got the
opportunity to do it when you were younger because I think you
(25:52):
got more momentum Foster, than most people would.
But. I really feel like the best time
is now. That's true.
That's true. Are.
Oh, yes, yes, you're right. Thinking should I do this?
Should I try this? Is it?
Is it going to be difficult? Yeah.
Whether if you're 18 or if you're 78, it's going to be
(26:12):
difficult. But it's not going to be any
easier next year. In fact, it might be a little
bit harder next year and a little bit harder than that the
year after that, and harder and harder and harder.
So the best time is now. Now.
If you've got that feeling inside of your heart, you know
it well enough to know that it'ssomething that's trying to take
you somewhere. You really need to listen to
(26:34):
that feeling. You don't need to do everything
immediately and make any reckless decisions, but that
feeling in your heart is wantingto take you somewhere.
And if you were to listen to it,I don't know if there's a pot of
gold at the end of that journey,but there's a very high
likelihood that you will find some level of happiness and
(26:59):
fulfillment that wouldn't be there if you didn't have that
feeling. And I really would recommend
that do it in a smart of a way as possible.
Make sure that you're taking care of your basic needs, you
know, plan for the future, think, think carefully, be wise
about the move. But really, I, I couldn't, I
(27:22):
couldn't hold myself back from encouraging people who feel that
because the alternative is to continue living this way with
that feeling in your heart and your tummy and knowing that
you're not at a place where you're living the life that you
were supposed to live. That's not worth it.
But. Honestly, like bringing us back
(27:42):
to our topic of our question we're coming away from, I think,
why are you feeling this? Why are you feeling this in your
heart? I mean your stomach and
everything. Why are you feeling like you
need to leave? And this is a question of are
you running away from something in your current life or are you
feeling like you need to add something to your life and
(28:04):
you're actually running toward new experiences or something
else? Because I know for a fact that
we have met people on both sidesof that floor, and the people
who are running away from their current situation are almost
always really unhappy when they arrive in their new situation.
(28:27):
And I think this is time to ask the therapist.
But Ryan, does physically running away from your problems
ever solve them? No, it stays with you.
It's part of your life. It's part of who you are.
Because if you haven't found some way of dealing with the
problems that you're facing, there's no reason for them to
(28:48):
ever leave you. And when I say deal with your
situation, deal with the problems that you're dealing
with, it's not necessarily solving them or just getting
over them and forgetting about them.
It's finding some way to resolvethem in a way that allows you to
be happy and live the life you're supposed to be living,
taking steps forward, learning, growing, all of those things.
(29:11):
And coming back to being someonefrom South Africa, it's one of
the things that I've really struggled with.
I know we talked about it a little bit with Ryan Brock in
one of our previous episodes. But one of the things that
really breaks my heart, it honestly makes me really sad is
when I speak to fellow S Africans who have left South
(29:32):
Africa and during the course of a conversation, asking them why
they left. Because I don't think it's a
difficult question to ask or an unfair question to ask someone.
But the response is often so brutal and so sad because it's
encased in this really negative perspective on South Africa and
(29:58):
why they felt like they needed to leave.
So they are negative feelings towards other people in South
Africa from a different racial group.
There's problems with the government, there's problems
with the way that people do things.
There's problems with the quality of the life that they
had. And it's not framed in a way
(30:19):
that indicates that that person was happy to be living in South
Africa but needs to improve their lives by moving somewhere
else. It's just, I escaped this place
because it was so terrible and I'm so glad that I'm not there.
And anyone who's still there sucks.
And really, that really makes meso sad and really so angry.
(30:41):
And I know a lot of the people who feel that way probably would
never own up to it because it's such a poop way of looking at
the world. But it's so common.
It's so common. And I, I, you know, if you're a
South African and you've left South Africa to pursue something
bigger and greater and you miss South Africa because you know
(31:04):
how amazing it is and you love it, I'm on the same page as you.
If you're someone who's got nothing but bad things to say
about the place that you're from, you probably weren't
having a good time then and you're probably not going to
have a good time now because that's not the way you should be
looking at life. And I'll extend this to you,
Liz, to say, man, American people who are leaving America
(31:27):
right now and moving to places around the world are very
difficult to talk to sometimes when you ask why they left.
Unfortunately, it's something that South Africa and the US
have in common right now of these immigrants and experts who
have left and just go on a rant to talk about how terrible their
(31:51):
country is. And for the case of Americans,
it's it's both directions politically that I hate Trump.
Then he has done this and that and it's so terrible or these
liberals are doing this and thenit's so terrible.
But it's it's the same really. It's this rant about how
everything is so terrible. And I just think it's such a
(32:13):
skewed way of looking at things.There's good and there's bad in
every single country, just like there's good and bad in every
person and place and thing and everything in this world.
And when you only talk about theterrible things that are in the
country that you came from, you're not even seeing what's in
(32:34):
the country that you're in. And I think that the saddest
part of this is that most of those people, because all they
think about were the terrible things about the country that
they left, didn't do enough research before they came to
their new country, were completely unprepared to come to
their new country and end up needing to go back.
(32:56):
And that is when their life truly tailspins because they
hated it so much. Everything was miserable.
Everything was the worst ever. And then they tried somewhere
new, but they didn't prepare forit.
They didn't know what to do. They didn't embrace their life
there at all because they just have this really negative
attitude of what they escaped and they couldn't make it work.
(33:17):
And when you can't make it work in a new country, the most
common thing that people do is, is they go back home.
So now they're back. All they've done is complain
about this place for months or years.
And it's just, I can't imagine how difficult that life must be.
Yeah, it's a life without any balance.
(33:39):
And that's the problem, you know, at any stage in life, if
you find yourself leaning towards 1 edge of an extreme, I
don't know if you're in the right place because as much as
they are these very difficult things to face in every country,
you have to recognize the fact that they are good things too.
(34:02):
So I'm from South Africa, I willspeak from the South African
perspective because I don't feellike I'm qualified to talk for
any other country. But crime and corruption in
South Africa is really bad. It's really not good.
And I'm disappointed, I'm sad, I'm angry.
(34:22):
It's become something that's robbed that country of so much
of what it could be. Admitting that hope is not lost,
there is still a future for thatcountry and I think that they
could be something great in store for it and I'm excited for
that. But that's the point, is that
there's two ways of looking at this, the good and there's the
(34:42):
bad. And if I am to move to Portugal
like I have and look back and say there was only bad things in
South Africa, that would be so unfair to so many amazing people
who built such an amazing country.
That gave me the opportunity to get my brown backside to
(35:02):
Portugal. So I can't talk crap about South
Africa because it's been so goodto me.
It gave me the opportunity to succeed on an international
level. So it couldn't be that bad.
And there's a reason why I miss so many things from that
country. It's there's a reason why I wake
up early to watch the Springboksplay rugby on weekends.
(35:26):
There's a reason why I feel the need to bribe whenever I get the
opportunity to bribe. That means BBQ.
That's an important part of whatmy life is and I wouldn't have
that if it wasn't for South Africa in the mix of all the bad
things that are there too, you know?
Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I think that there are so many
things that I was able to do because of the country that I
(35:51):
was born in. I think that there are so many
things that I truly do love. Just last week in August and we
talked about the things that we absolutely love and there's so
many of them. This there are also things that
are broken in both of our countries.
I think that for me, the healthcare system is the one
that hits home the hardest and the experiences that I've had
(36:13):
with family and friends, trying to use the US healthcare system
is really, really difficult. And I think that for me, I
wasn't necessarily running away from that healthcare system, but
I was definitely running toward universal healthcare.
(36:34):
And I was definitely very happy and definitely I am very happy
to live in a place today where no one is turned away from the
hospital for lack of funds, where you are able to see a
doctor when you need to see a doctor and never worry.
(36:55):
So if you're wondering what thatwas, that was Henry who gave the
biggest shake and then the biggest drink of water because
he believes that hydration is part of a healthy lifestyle and
we support him yet. But yeah, getting back to it,
Liz, absolutely. There are definitely things that
we've moved towards that have made our lives so much better by
(37:18):
being different from the places that we're from.
And I don't feel as though I should feel guilty about
navigating towards a place that gives me those opportunities
because I want my life to be better.
And if South Africa gave that tome, I would be equally as
grateful. But Portugal happens to be
(37:39):
giving us this amazing healthcare.
We are able to walk outside at crazy times during the day and
we wouldn't be able to do that where we're from.
Yeah, I think this is the thing of it's fine to be upset with
things from the place that you're from.
It's normal. And if you weren't upset with
(38:00):
something from the place that you're from, you'd probably
lying to yourself. But there are great things about
that place, wherever it is. And we can't paint an entire
country with millions of people living there as being bad.
Because really, you're missing the bigger picture.
And I think it's more about you than it is about that place.
(38:21):
But that's what we started with,you know, I, I think going back
to that question of what did I run away from?
And really it just comes back tome looking in the mirror and
saying I did run away from something, the old person that I
used to be. And there's a lot that's wrapped
up around that, in it being superficial on a certain level
(38:47):
of wanting to be a new person and accept a new lifestyle and
learn more about myself and growand educate myself in a
different context. But then there's also that depth
where you look there and you say, who was I being that
person, living that life? I didn't want to be that person
(39:08):
anymore and I wanted to see who else I could be in this world.
And it's been massively educational to me, understanding
how much of a small fish I am and how big the pond can be.
And then learning further than that, how there are certain
parts of me which are truly big and fits on a global
(39:33):
perspective. And I need to lean into those
things. And comparing my experiences
with people who have had vastly different lives to me, and then
understanding where I fit in in terms of my perspectives and the
levels at which I'm good or bad at things.
And it's such a deep pot to be boiling in.
(39:57):
And I absolutely love it. And.
If you're looking for that kind of experience, I think that it's
one of the great things you can do with your life.
I agree completely. I think that it's it's great.
I think it enables you to see parts of yourself that you never
(40:17):
would have seen otherwise. All right, one more on our topic
of what are you running away from.
Another extreme that we have seen with equally unfammered
people as a result are those whotreat their new country as
perfect in every way. So we've seen this so many times
(40:38):
in Portugal where people move here and they wax poetic about
how everything is very nice. And if you bring up any struggle
or issue that you're facing, these people will tell you that
you are wrong. This is the best place on earth.
You just need to look on the bright side because it's so
bright and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this country.
(41:01):
And those people are going to bejust as upset as the people who
think that everything is wrong with the country that they came
from, because reality is that there are a lot of difficult
things in every place. I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna say this because I feel asthough you brought up this point
because you know that I made this mistake myself.
(41:22):
So I so I don't feel as though Iwas negative about South Africa
because I don't think I've ever done that.
You weren't. So I was definitely overly
optimistic about Portugal in ourfirst year in the country, but.
This isn't about you. This wasn't about other.
People, no, the reason why I'm saying it, it's, I feel like I
can identify to a certain extent.
(41:42):
So those people are doing it fora particular reason of needing
to be polarized in their, in their perspectives.
And that it. But I also think that there's an
added element of when you come to a place that's not your
homeland, which is full of problems and terrible and all of
those things, you can't hold yourself back from praising
(42:03):
every little thing about the newplace because you know nothing
about the place. And So what ends up happening is
that you're standing there thinking, well, this is at least
better than what I remember fromthe last place that I was
living. So this must be the best place
in the world. And honestly for me, like I
said, I wasn't really part of this cohort that Liz is talking
(42:24):
about, but I really was overly optimistic.
And I promise it only took like eight months before I realized
how much Portugal reflects the idea that there's good and
there's bad. And please, if you don't want to
acknowledge the fact that there are bad things about Portugal,
(42:45):
you're going to be very disappointed because it's going
to slap you in the face. Because as good as things can be
in Portugal, and they can be really good, they can also be
really bad. Go back and listen to our
episode on and talk to Portugal and blessed to hear Ryan going
very long and. I don't have the energy today to
do it again, but like here are there are things that I can talk
(43:07):
to you about for hours about howgreat Portugal is, but then I
will also talk for the same number of hours about stuff
which will make your toes cool in terms of how bad it can be.
But I think this is the whole point, right?
That if you're coming to a placein your life, everything of
where I came from was terrible, and now this place, everything
is perfect. Something is going to happen.
(43:30):
You're going to experience something in your new country
and that bubble is going to burst and you're going to fall
so hard onto the ground of reality, and then what do you do
from there? Absolutely.
But that's The thing is that it's not about the country, is
it? It's about the people.
Exactly. And that I think is maybe the
(43:51):
biggest point of our episode today is that it's so dependent
on who you are and how you feel and what your perspective is.
If you don't have a perspective that encourages positivity,
courageous balance, looks for opportunity, looks for optimism
(44:12):
and happiness, if you're not looking for those things, man,
it doesn't matter where you're going to go.
You're going to have a tough time.
But if you are willing to stick to those values and keep your
chin up and work hard and try and get through everything with
a smile on your face as best as you can and cry when you're
(44:32):
supposed to, it's going to be really something for you in your
life. Running toward who you want to
be running toward, not just OK, there's less crime in this
country. So I'm going to, I'm going to go
there because that's what I want.
You're never going to find the right place if that's the
perspective you're. You're going to keep on looking
(44:52):
because you will leave South Africa because the crime is so
bad. You're going to come to Portugal
and you're going to discover that the driving is shocking.
And then you're going to need togo to Dubai and then struggle in
the heat. And then you're going to need to
go to Denmark and struggle in the cold.
And you're just going to keep on.
And you're not going to feel theway that you're supposed to feel
(45:16):
in this amazing experience that life is.
Yeah, exactly. I think balance and perspective
and really just knowing that youare figuring out who you are and
what you want in this life. All right, so we have a new
segment on Expats Listen and NASA become real listeners.
(45:39):
We are able to listen to other expats about their experiences
and we are super psyched for this.
We really hope that you are too.And each week we are going to
ask the question and we will play some of the responses that
we get from our listeners. And if you want your voice heard
on a future episode, either sendus Adm on Instagram, Xbox
(46:00):
Listen, or send us an e-mail at Xbox listen@gmail.com.
And we'll send you the question for the next week.
And hopefully we'll be able to get your answer onto this
podcast soon. So this week our question is,
what is your response when someone asks what are you
running away from? All right.
(46:21):
Our first answer is from Mossimo, originally from Italy
and currently living in Canada. I didn't run away from anything.
There was not a drama or a fire right to escape.
I moved because I saw better opportunities.
I'm driven by curiosity. The little questions that won't
(46:42):
leave me alone is like what can I learn next?
Where can I grow faster and whatnew experiences can I have?
Experiences. Here is a keyword.
When those questions, you know, get loud in my head, I listen.
I look around, talk to people, thought it through and realized.
And I realized there were placesthat, you know, fit my strength,
(47:03):
curiosity, and values better. It wasn't so it wasn't an
escape. It was moving towards something
that makes more sense for me. Driven by curiosity.
Here is once again a keyword. Sometimes I wish I asked myself
fewer questions and just, you know, could be happier, more
satisfied with what I have. But that's unfortunate.
For me, it's a curse. Curiosity keeps me moving.
(47:27):
Know how feelings about the past.
I'm very grateful for it. I'm just excited about what's
next because it lines up. We walk with who I'm becoming
and experience. I want all forward.
Well, I really wasn't inbound somuch.
I think that what he's saying about curiosity, it's exactly
how I feel that I just always want to find out more.
(47:51):
And you? Yeah, I think that's The thing
is that it's really such a deep thing for so many people.
And I love the uniqueness of it and how they experience it and
how they respond to the questionfrom to other people and how
they have might sometimes have adifferent answer to themselves.
And it's really, really cool. Really cool.
(48:12):
Right Next up we have Bunka. She is originally from Romania
and she is currently living in Portugal.
To answer to the question what Iam running away from, whatever
it is I'm taking myself with. So I may run from lots of things
(48:34):
that I don't like, like for example, stress or stupidity or
fanatism or other things. But sometimes I feel like I'm
running for myself from from myself also.
(48:58):
Yeah, I think this one really told for me as well, because
it's you really are running fromyourself and to yourself because
there are things that you need to figure out along the way.
And yeah, there are things that you don't like, but also, what
do you want? I, I, I think I could say that's
(49:18):
the best. I, I think that's one of those
things to accept is that wherever you are, that's where
you are and whatever you've taken with you is what you've
got with you. And accepting that is a huge
part of understanding what leaving a place is and arriving
in a new place is like. And last, we have Ian,
(49:39):
originally from South Africa andcurrently living in the United
Kingdom. So this is a great question.
I think my answer is going to beslightly unconventional because
I didn't necessarily need South Africa or diverse economists run
away from or run from anything. I was already traveling the
(50:01):
world for about 5 years. And for me, it was more a case
of deciding where did I want to settle after traveling.
And so it's not necessarily a case of running away from, it's
more what are you running towards?
And so I guess it's what could, you know, what could London, for
(50:22):
example, after all, Europe off of that that South Africa put
in. So I suppose, and, and I think
it's, it's a lot of what a lot of the expats appreciate, right?
It's being in Europe and being able to travel to so many
amazing destinations for a very affordable amount.
You know, in South Africa, people would have to work really
hard and save up a lot to be able to take a trip to Europe.
(50:43):
And, and I think I just wanted to be able to continue to
explore cool cities and cool places.
So that was a huge thing. And then I also think you know,
job opportunities in, in the UK,you know, if you are willing to
put. In the hard work, there's.
There's a lot of good opportunities here.
So I think those would be the two things.
There's probably a bunch more that I could go through, but the
(51:06):
two things for me was, was thosetwo things the ability to travel
and, you know, some sort of job security and you know, knowing
that my skills would be appreciated and well paid.
So that's my answer. Exactly.
I think this is the whole thing of running toward and figuring
(51:27):
out what you want. And I think it's so interesting
that Ian's story kind of mirrorsmine in some ways, where he left
when he was quite young and he moved around a bit before he
decided to settle somewhere. But where he came from, people
weren't asking what are you running away from?
They kind of understood. And I think this is such a point
(51:49):
of privilege where me coming from, such a privileged place,
people are like, why would you leave?
What are you running away from? Yeah.
And I think the longer you spendin that world of privilege, the
less you think about things thatway.
You know, life isn't framed in what are you escaping from.
It starts becoming more about what can, what am I taking from
(52:11):
this experience? What am I learning from?
What am I growing from and wheream I going?
You know what's next? I.
Think that's a better way to look at it, right?
I think it's a healthier way to be viewing your life and where
you're going and what you're trying to achieve.
Yeah, it sounds much healthier, and I really hope more people
can get to experience that. I think coming from maybe more
(52:32):
difficult circumstances means that you have to go through some
kind of process of moving towards more positive thinking
about what it is that you're taking from your life
experience. But yeah, that's super cool.
Well, that's it for this week. Thank you so much to you all for
sharing this time with us and discussing what people are
(52:52):
running away from when they makethe big move to another country.
It was really a pleasure to talkto our friends who have had that
experience and to hear a little bit about what they went through
in making the decisions that they made.
And we would love to hear from you too.
So please contact us on Instagram.
We are an expats listen on instagramandweareanexpatslisten@gmail.com
(53:18):
on e-mail and we'd love to hear from you and try to understand a
little bit more about what otherpeople are experiencing.
And we hope you have a great week and we look forward to
chatting with you next time. Bye bye.
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