September 19, 2025 • 51 mins
What is home, really? As an expat, this answer can be so complicated. If I say that home is where I live now, am I abandoning where I came from? If I say that home is where I was born, am I living in the past and not showing love to the life I have worked so hard to build here?
And what about homesickness? We definitely miss people and places and things from our past homes. But we also miss the version of ourselves that was there for all of that. So going back to that place might not give us that same feeling.
It's a big one, so let's dive in.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Expats Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we tell the truth about living abroad.
Not just the fun, amazing I'm having a great time on vacation
every day, but the reality of a true life that we're building in
another country. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz and this week we aretalking about a big one.
(00:23):
The question is, what is home? When I was 24, I was backpacking
for the very first time. I was staying in this
overcrowded hostel in Argentina,and I went to an Internet cafe
to Skype my mom. That's how long ago this was.
We were finishing the conversation and I said, all
right, I should get home, I'll talk to you soon.
(00:44):
And she said you're coming home when I had just meant that I was
going back to the hostel to go to sleep for the night and she
thought that I was going to comehome to New York.
I had to backtrack really, really quickly.
And we had to actually have likeanother 20 minute conversation
where I told her that I loved her and that I missed her.
(01:06):
But I was doing this trip and I wasn't leaving and I wasn't
quitting and all of this. And that's when I really
realized that the word home can mean such different things.
So let's get into it. Let's dig in.
What is home, Ryan? Why don't why don't you tell us
what it means to? You.
(01:26):
Oh, I don't know, A big part of me hasn't been looking forward
to this episode because of how emotional some of the stuff is.
So I feel as though it's a warm,safe environment that is
characterized by a dwelling, a house that is warm and
(01:51):
comfortable and has space for meand has all my favorite things
and doesn't change too much and has a faint smell of my mom's
cooking. And I am happy there and my dog
(02:12):
is there and life is calm and tranquil and that's it.
And I think that AM. I.
There Well, but that's the thingI think it's such a good
question because it's actually based in time, not necessarily
in concept. So I'm thinking back to my
(02:35):
childhood and what I would have idealized at that point and how
that imprinted on me going forward through life of being
like what is life? I don't imagine my home right
now, including my my parents andmy brother and the dogs that we
had his children. But that was what the concept of
home was then, because I experienced it in a different
(02:57):
way. Okay.
I was less of a participant in my home at that stage.
I was a dependent person on the people who were responsible for
running that home. And that was, and that was how I
experienced it as opposed to nowI'm defining what home is on a
day-to-day basis because it's how we live together.
And you are my home. I know, you know, we'll probably
(03:18):
discuss more of the current concept of home in a second.
But yeah, I, I think it's a lot more idyllic and stereotypical
and kind of boring, if I'm honest.
And I think that that living in a space in time points to the
fact that it might be quite antiquated in how I think about
(03:40):
it now. So when you think about the word
home, now you're thinking of that childhood definition,
You're not thinking of your adult life home.
No, not at all. Because when you say to me, what
do you think of home? And that's what the question
was. My mind goes back to that point
and and I know that I don't livethat way and I know that that's
(04:04):
not what my life is right now, despite the fact that my home
right now is with you, wherever we happen to be, maybe in
Portugal, all of these kinds of things.
And how do I feel about where I belong now?
But it really does come down to sort of some basic stuff of
South Africa. South Africa is home to me.
(04:25):
Then further than that, it was either Durban, where I was born,
or East London where I grew up is.
One of those more home than the other.
You see that's, that's I think maybe where it does start to get
a bit more dynamic for me because then it starts coming up
as being, well, a lot of my extended family were from Durban
and that is where I remember a lot of the best and most warm
(04:49):
moments in my life. So I'm a bit confused about that
even for myself, Right. So that's Durban having more of
a homely role than East London, even when East London was my
home in a greater sense. But maybe it's closer to saying
that all of these places have been home.
Yeah, I think it's really interesting because it's just so
(05:10):
different from how I look at it.And I think for me, home
generally is just where I'm sleeping that night.
But we have a dog, and Henry is a big part of home, and you,
Ryan, are a big part of home to me.
So it's wherever we're sleeping that night, if it's all three of
(05:35):
us, because if all three of us are together and we're in Mars
or Uruguay or Mongolia or wherever we're home.
We are. And that's The thing is that
like there's nowhere else I would rather be than with you
and Henry, wherever that might need to be.
If I'm down at the shop and you give me a call and you say when
(05:57):
are you coming home, I'd be like, OK, it wouldn't take a
long time. I would like to sit and like
ponder about it. But I would have a second where
I would be like, oh, oh, yeah, I'll be back at the apartment in
a few minutes. And I would be referring to the
apartment that we were staying. And I know that you would made
the connection that this was home, but I would have first at
(06:17):
this point in time thought aboutare you asking me when are we
going to go back to Portugal? And then if it's not that, then
I'm like. Am I asking you when we're going
to South? Are you thinking?
About like when we're going to maybe no, but not even that.
Maybe maybe South Africa, sure, maybe the United States, maybe
New York or Las Vegas. And I'm like, okay, and and
(06:38):
that's, and that's what I'm saying is that it's not
necessarily about whether any ofthose things are true or correct
or right. It's true, there's no right or.
Wrong. There's no right wrong, but I do
cycle through all of those options instead of there just
being one. Yeah, that's really complicated.
And I think that's the whole point, right?
That when you don't live in the place that you were born, this
(07:00):
word becomes really complicated.And I think that's what it is
for me. It's moving away from that
idealized version of warm, safe,familiar into as long as I'm
close to these people. That is what home actually
means. And it's a different feeling to
what home felt like when I was 10 years old.
(07:22):
This definitely ties back into homesickness and what we miss
about home. Because even though here I am
saying that home is wherever I happen to be sleeping tonight, I
definitely still feel those homesick feelings.
And when I really think about it, what I actually miss is a
(07:43):
life that doesn't exist anymore.For example, New York City when
I was 22 was absolute magic. My high school friends and my
college friends came together, We expanded our groups.
We had all graduated, just got jobs, and we're making money for
the very first time. We were partying until 6:00 AM,
(08:04):
grabbing a slice of pizza, and then going straight to the
office to work. We had no plans except for each
other. So any weekend night there was a
plan with friends and most weeknights there was too.
I was seeing multiple Broadway shows per month with student
tickets or last minute tickets. I was eating foods that I had
(08:26):
never heard of before and falling in love with
international cuisine because there was this ridiculous
website calledrestaurant.com that you could get 70% or 90%
off at restaurants, and we just went to every restaurant that we
could. We also had almost no
responsibilities and no idea what we were doing, but our
(08:48):
confidence, the confidence that we felt like we were on top of
the world. And when I tell you that I miss
New York City, what I actually miss is that.
Is that missing 22 year old Liz?Exactly.
That's exactly what it's missing.
(09:10):
And when I talk about the Long Island that I miss, it's where
my mom was healthy. And we went on adventures that
always seem to end with eating Carvel ice cream in the car
while I sang every word of everysong off key and far too loud.
And she laughed at me until I started laughing.
And then we both laughed until we cried.
(09:31):
And that version of home, for me?
That's just my mom. Like what is home?
Who is home? It's her and she's not here.
So that version of home, it justdoesn't exist for me anymore.
(09:53):
And now? And now I think that's why it's
it's you guys, right? Because I can't go back to those
places. I wouldn't have that experience
even if I did. I think, Ryan, you know almost
better than anyone that if you wanted me to stay up until 6:00
AM partying, I would be a grumpymonster for maybe 3 days
(10:16):
afterward from the lack of sleep.
And my mom passed away almost a decade ago.
Now, my friends who saw each other 345 times a week, now
they're seeing each other two, three times a year.
Life is different. We all have more
responsibilities. People have kids, they have
(10:37):
ailing parents, they have jobs that have stolen parts of their
souls. They also live further away from
each other, and an hour and a half on the subway feels a lot
longer in your 30s and 40s than it did at 22.
So what am I homesick for? Maybe it's my youth.
(10:59):
I think that makes complete sense.
It's who we were at that time. It's how we understood the world
around us. I think when I look back at the
more practical examples of what do I miss about that home at
that time? Sometimes you would get home
after school or late in the afternoon, maybe after sport or
(11:21):
something, and you walk in and your mom's been cooking.
And then there's that smell of what was cooking.
And I come from a historically and ethnically Indian
background, which means that it was probably some type of Curry
or masala being cooked. And there's a specific smell
(11:42):
that you get from the steps of making that Curry.
So you start off with toasting the spices, then putting ginger
and garlic in and then putting in tomato and then putting in
the meat. And there's a whole, there's a
whole recipe to follow in makingthat.
And when you get home, you can smell what was in the pot and
(12:05):
you understood this is how far along that dish was.
And this is how long I need to wait and.
This is how long you would need to wait until dinner was ready.
And that was such an incredible feeling to know that that was
something that I got to experience when I came home on
so many days. It wasn't every day, but it
(12:26):
really made me feel like that was what home was like.
And even today, if I'm making some kind of carry in our
kitchen, one of my favorite things about it, aside from
eating it at the end, is the smell of that.
And it's really just a fascinating thing because
there's so many strange things that trigger those memories of
(12:50):
home that don't really exist in day-to-day life anymore other
than through almost random exposure.
One of the crazy things is I remember when I was a young,
young boy, I watched some silly kids show where they taught you
how to make potpourri. And, and I don't know why, but I
felt like I needed to follow that advice.
(13:12):
And I went to go make this potpourri and I used my mom's
perfume and it was a ridiculous amount of perfume.
And really everything in the house smelled that way for
months. And that particular perfume
today, if I smell even anything similar to it, it takes me all
(13:36):
the way back to that particular day making.
Potpourri. Making potpourri in this house,
the smell of the Polish that we used on the floors at that time,
You know, coming from South Africa, Liz can attest to this.
Absolutely. If we're driving down the road
today and I see someone burning something on a hill far away and
(14:01):
I know that we're going to drivepast.
He immediately rolls down all the windows.
I will open my windows because Iwant to smell the smell of that
smoke of hopefully what is wood burning, because it was such an
important part of what it is that I experienced growing up.
And I'm desperate to get that smell, especially when I know
(14:22):
that I can get it, you know? And I'm like, oh, no, I'd like,
I'll walk past a fire just to smell the smoke because that's
what my life used to be. Yeah.
I think the other thing we hear in Ireland and we're walking
through many sort of fields withanimals around it.
I had no idea how little time people outside of Africa spent
(14:45):
with animals. Yeah, in New York 0.
We, we. We, we, we had that as a very
regular experience in South Africa growing up.
Goats, sheep, cattle, antelope, zebras, giraffes, you would see
those on a very regular basis. And since leaving South Africa,
I didn't know that other people lived at any other way.
(15:07):
So now when I see cow poop, I have this warm feeling because
it takes me back to the days where I used to stand in cow
poop all the time. It was a very common thing for
me. And living a life where that
isn't common to me anymore meansthat I feel like, wow, home is
(15:29):
really far away in terms of timeand distance, because that was
such a big part of my life at that stage.
And it's not like you're saying you miss standing in Cal, you
miss the person that you were when you were standing in Calpol
it. Was just, it was the way life
was. It was who I was.
It was where I was. It was who I was with.
(15:51):
It was just that was the realityof it.
I wasn't imagining any life other than that because that was
the only one that I had and and that was how I felt.
And I think, yeah, you know, when you look back now at what
it is that built that concept ofhome in our brains, it's such an
interesting combination of things.
(16:12):
It's certainly the memories of what we did and who was there
and what happened. But there's also the songs.
There was also the food. There was also the smells.
There was also the textures. You know, car seats feel
different today than how they used to be.
So much furniture used to be plastic.
(16:35):
And I can feel the stickiness ofthe plastic on the back of my
legs on a summer's day in my grandmother's house.
And that was a big part of how Ifelt home when I used to visit
her in the late 90s. And that's, I think The thing is
that maybe I underestimate how much of home is right now
(16:59):
because I'm not remembering it. I'm just doing it right now.
I think what you're saying, it'sso true that you don't even know
that you miss it until you experience it somewhere else.
And then you're like, oh, that smell or wow, that song.
When's the last time you heard that song?
And you automatically go back there.
(17:22):
And I really think that there's something kind of beautiful
about those memories and that nostalgia for who we used to be,
and I'm so grateful that we get to remember it now.
They are the best, some of the best memories that we will ever
(17:42):
have. And I'm so grateful to have had
them as an experience and to have them in my brain as a
memory. And I think that's The thing is
that, you know, when I talk about and when we think about it
in the context of being expats now, again, it's one of these
things that jump out and it's sounashamedly complicated.
(18:05):
And I think that's kind of beautiful in and of itself, you
know, of looking back at things and saying, well, I'm supposed
to feel this way. I'm supposed to think this way.
This is what home was supposed to be.
This is what home is supposed tobe.
Now. This is what I'm supposed to
build for myself and for my children and for the society and
(18:25):
community that I live in. And The thing is that none of
this is simple. None of this makes logical
sense. None of it fits together in a
puzzle piece to create this beautiful picture.
It's actually just a series of like beautiful but smeared paint
stains. That's really what life really
(18:46):
is. And I think that's really a
fascinating thing because when we started this conversation,
you asked me what do I think I'mwas even now like after having
this conversation, I look back at it and I think it was such a
mishmash of different concepts and different memories and
different things that I remembered and felt.
And maybe that's true today about what my life is right now.
(19:11):
And by sitting there and imagining how everything should
be in a box and how everything should be prioritized and
categorized and valued accordingly, and how different
people have a specific role to play, I think that might be a
mistake. I think looking at it as a
(19:32):
holistic experience of this thing happened to me and that
was what my life was might be a bit more comforting in that
maybe we are being too hard on ourselves about needing to be
the people who we were supposed to be and experiences and life
(19:53):
being what they were supposed tobe.
You know, one of the things thatwe do every year is we struggle
heavily at Christmas time because we aren't really in a
place where we can plug into Christmases that are in any way
connected to the Christmases we had as young people.
(20:15):
And so it leaves us in a very difficult situation sometimes
where we need to do something for the Christmas season.
To almost hide from the fact that we don't have homes like we
used to anymore and we find ourselves doing some of the
strangest things. But we have to do those things
(20:38):
because that's what home is now.And we can't plug into what home
used to be because it doesn't exist anymore.
And. I think it's more than just what
we do in our traditions and all of that.
It's if you have to say, like what place is home for you?
New York is home for me. Yeah, OK.
(20:59):
But my family lives in Vegas, soVegas is home for me.
But I live in Portugal, so Portugal is home for me.
But I lived in Sydney for many years and that still feels like
home for me. And I am in Ireland right now
and if you were to ask like whenare you going home?
I'm thinking of the apartment that we're currently staying and
(21:21):
then that's what I'm going home.So the the place that I
currently am is home for me. And maybe maybe that's it.
Maybe home isn't one thing and it's not one place.
And I just feel sad if I try to choose, because I can't choose
(21:45):
one without not choosing another.
And to say that Portugal is definitively my home means that
New York isn't anymore. And who?
It's also, I mean, it's also considering the fact that we
might not live in Portugal for the rest of our lives.
We probably won't. So, so so does it make sense for
us to call it home right now? Maybe, maybe not.
(22:07):
I don't know. I'm just saying the the fluidity
of that concept is so off the charts.
And I think that when you start living the expect life, I think
it's one of the first things that gets pulled out from you
like a rag. Because it's the one of the
first times where you sit and you ask yourself wherever and
(22:30):
whenever it might be where is home.
Because you'll ask yourself thatquestion and no one else can
answer it for you. And then will be an answer to
that. And that answer is really going
to go a long way in deciding howyou feel about where you are.
And I think that answer is probably going to change, if not
(22:51):
every day, every couple of hourseven.
I I think how you're feeling, ifyou're in a good mood, if you
slept well, if you had a good interaction, if your visa is
sorted, there are so many ways that make you feel comfortable.
And I guess we're talking about home being comfort.
And I think sort of living in that flux of this concept,
(23:16):
ebbing and flowing and changing shape and feeling more or less
intense is such a big part of being an expert.
Loving your home where you are and then hating it and then
loving it again and then needingto leave and starting again.
And man, it is just exhausting and exhilarating and stressful
(23:42):
and fun and scary and comforting.
And I think that's one of the great things about being an
expert and living this life, because I kind of justify the
experience to myself by saying, at the end of my life, did I
squeeze out as much as I could from the experience?
(24:06):
Because if I did, I would need to expect there to have been
lots of high highs and unfortunately some terribly low
lows. And home, I think, becomes a lot
more of an emotional risk because of how much feeling and
emotion is attached to it. Let's hear from a listener.
(24:29):
We are lucky enough to have Anastasia who has given us her
thoughts on what is home and what does she miss.
Hi Liz and Ryan, thank you so much for inviting your listeners
to join the exert. I find every topic you discuss
(24:50):
so relatable, so being able to be a part of this means a lot.
Thank you so much. My name is Anastasia, as I would
say it in my language, Anastasia, but I guess adapting
your name for international purposes is a whole a whole
different big subject in itself.Speaking about home, I think I
(25:14):
have, I feel I have two homes. I was born in the Soviet Union
and grew up in post Soviet Russia.
In my mid 20s I moved to the UK.My husband's British and we have
two kids now. So I've never been a parent.
I've never experienced what it is to be a mum in the country
(25:35):
where I grew up. So it it kind of creates this
interesting dynamic. We also lived in Spain for four
years, and last month we moved to the Netherlands.
Yeah, it's a bit of a mix. So when I think about home, I do
think about Russia and I think about the UK and what makes me
(25:56):
miss Russia. And I guess when we talk about a
place, we also talk about a particular time that we connect
to that place. So most of my brightest memories
and attributes, they are connected with my, with my
childhood, with growing up. So that would be songs mostly
(26:19):
songs that I used to listen to as a kid.
I used to look forward to at a camp dance, something that would
play in in the house, something to dance to.
You know, that happy sort of state that that I connect, that
(26:41):
I attribute to the songs that used to.
But I still have on my Spotify, I still have playlists from the
90s and 2000s that I listen to every now and again if I want to
have that feeling. And if we talk about smells and
New Year's Eve is huge in Russiabecause we don't celebrate
(27:05):
Christmas the same way as the Western world, so to speak.
So New Year's Eve is the biggestnight.
And usually we make a lot of food.
And you might know something that people in Europe often
called the Russian salad is a salad, you know, a mix of
potatoes and cooked vegetables and meat with mayonnaise.
(27:29):
So that salad is, to me, that isthe smell and the taste of
celebration. It means that the house will be
happy, will be full of people celebrating something,
especially New Year's Eve. So that's one part of that.
You know that the home that I associate with my childhood and
(27:52):
my other home, the UK, that I experienced more as a more
mature person. I would say that it's British
telly. Somebody may say it's not great,
but what I love about it is the type of humour the British
(28:12):
people have and you know that the you can't really teach that
or you can't really explain that.
You can live it and you can understand that with with time.
So now living abroad again, I domiss British television and TV
series and programs that they show on BBC.
(28:36):
So that's that. Thanks again for having me and
hope you have a good week. Bye.
I loved that so much. Thank you again so much to
Anastasia. Anastasia, however we want to
say. But really, I think it's so good
to hear from other people. I love that she went straight to
(28:57):
places. We didn't go straight to places,
but she went straight to places and then brought in the time
element. And I think it is so true,
right? It's exactly what we were
saying, how a place is inextricably tied to the time
that you were there. You could feel how special those
(29:17):
things were to her in developingthat idea of home.
Like, you know, that those are core aspects to who she is as a
person because I think we identify with so much of it, but
you can also hear it in her voice.
And I, I really appreciated hearing because I kind of feel
(29:39):
like it's a lot of validation for how it is that we feel.
You know, I think like one of the things that stood out for me
there, and I think I'd mentionedit earlier about the, the smell
of food cooking. You know, she was, she was
talking about the smells. And one of the things that I
think about, which was so stupidin retrospect, was my mom used
to use this perfume, which was designed, I guess.
(30:04):
So the brand was Elizabeth Arden, right?
And I know how fancy that is. But then in my little childhood
brain at that stage, I didn't know that Elizabeth Arden was
someone who I'd never seen before.
So my connection was then to Elizabeth Taylor.
So I was like, oh, so that's thelady who makes this perfume.
(30:25):
But then the worst thing about it is that it wasn't actually
Elizabeth Taylor that I was imagining in my head.
It was Liza Minnelli. So every time your mom sprayed
this Elizabeth Arden perfume, you were like, oh, Liza Minnelli
loves. This and even today when I watch
Arrested Development, which she's an actress, I'm like, oh,
(30:47):
you know, this lady must smell fantastic.
I also loved what she said aboutthe TV because it is the
weirdest things that stay with you.
Let's, let's, let's talk about this, Liz, because please, I
think this is going to cover so many different things that we've
talked about in the past and we probably will talk about going
(31:10):
forward is that the best things aren't always the best things.
Not at all. Sometimes the worst things are
the best things. Really.
Kraft Mac and Cheese for you. Delicious.
It is not coming out of a chef'skitchen, it is coming out of a
box, but the comfort and love that it gives you is not
something you can find anywhere else.
(31:32):
Didn't he more? Beef Stew is a canned soup that
my grandma used to have all the time and we used to have all the
time as kids, and eating that can of soup stays good for
(31:52):
decades. Delicious.
I can't imagine that someone who's never had it before would
think that it was good, but I think that it is incredible.
You can't underestimate how important those things are.
Blue slushy, you know, blue is not even a flavour, but it is
(32:13):
filled with deliciousness. In South Africa we have an
instant coffee brand called Frisco, right?
And Frisco, Man, I don't. I don't mean to offend anyone at
the Frisco factory, but I don't even know how much of it is
actual coffee. But it is such a comforting
(32:33):
drink, filled with the memories of a lifetime before I had moved
to Portugal, and I will drink itsimply for that fact.
It's nowhere near acceptable coffee standards, but the
comfort inside that I know Liz and I sometimes get into
arguments because Liz is the main shopper in our
(32:56):
relationship. So I will say, hey, listen, can
you pick up XYZ at the supermarket when you happen to
be there? And she will come back and
she'll say, oh, you know what? You asked for noodles.
So I got you these noodles. And they will be the fanciest
noodles. Well, I will get whatever's on
sale. So he asks for lasagna noodles.
(33:18):
And this was a this was an infamous, infamous argument that
Liz and I had for real. So the fresh lasagna noodles
were on sale and they were cheaper than the dried ones.
And I was like, that's a no brainer.
I'm going to get him the fresh one.
Cheaper than the equally, equally cheap bad lasagna
noodles. Yes.
(33:38):
So, yeah. So it was like this was a race
to the bottom. But basically the whole thing
was I didn't want the fancy noodles because the fancy
noodles are too fancy and they don't taste as crap as the bad
noodles do. But I want to taste the crap bad
noodles because that's what reminds me of of the good days,
you know? And I don't think that's such a
(34:00):
common thing to happen. But, yeah.
And it stays just remarks about the memories that she's got off
the different places. Like, you know, she was talking
about New Year's. I, I feel as though, like the
times that I remember as being the best in my life were times
(34:20):
that I didn't expect things to have had such a big impact on me
for the rest of my life. There was a New Year's party in
2002 when I was in 11th grade and it was the best New Year's
party I ever went to. I was with my friends, it was
(34:42):
near the beach. Amazing party.
We didn't drink any alcohol. I'm.
Sure. And you know, we just had the
most amazing time. And that's fine because that's
young people enjoying a party. But what I found interesting was
that was the template that I have chased for New Year's
(35:04):
parties since then. And it'll never live up.
And nothing has ever lived up and nothing ever will live up
because it wasn't a case of thatparty objectively being
particularly good. We just had a really good time.
And that then imprinted on my brain as being the ideal.
And I think this is another partof what is home.
(35:26):
It's these one off things that happened that this thing
happened and it was incredible. And that feels like a memory
that I'm holding on to and home to me.
But also like on a Siso saying these things that happen every
year and it's the same thing andit's not Frisco doesn't taste
good to you because you had it once first.
(35:48):
It tastes good to you because you had it so many times.
And it's the repetition of thesethings that just become normal.
And that's why we love them so much, no?
That makes sense. No, no, absolutely.
Yeah, No. Really incredible.
I thank you so much, Anastasia of mine.
That really made me think about similar things, you know, that
(36:09):
I've gone through in my life. And it's really good to know
that I'm not alone in that, you know?
For sure. And I think that's the whole
purpose that we wanted to start a podcast in the 1st place
because there are so many expatsand immigrants out there who are
experiencing the same things butnot talking about them.
And we really wanted to have that place where you could feel
(36:34):
like someone gets it. Well.
Let's wrap it up. Yeah, let's go.
Are you ready for our Would You Rather Home edition?
Let's do it. I'm ready.
All right, would you rather livein your hometown forever or
never be able to visit again? Well, what is your hometown,
Liz? So I think my hometown would be
(36:56):
on Long Island, where I spent most of my childhood.
OK. OK.
And so would you rather never goback or live there?
Forever. And I think this is such a
complicated question for me because is New York City counted
in this? Because if I want to be cheeky
about it, I am very happy to never go to Long Island to get
(37:17):
if I get to go to New York City.But if New York City is
included. Look, it's not, we're not going
to do gerrymandering here for you.
I'm just Long Island. Is Long Island the city is the
city. Yeah.
Yeah. Would you?
So let's limit it reasonably to just Long Island, OK?
Then if it's just Long Island then unfortunately I will never
(37:40):
visit again. Do you say that with any kind of
concern about what people might say about not wanting to stay
there? Because we both have people in
our lives who have stayed in ourhometowns.
I think that we were talking earlier about a place that you
feel comfortable in and my family was incredible.
(38:01):
My family is incredible and I have fantastic friends in Long
Island and there's so many people there that I truly, truly
love. But I never felt comfortable in
that place. I never felt like I belonged.
I I think that I always knew that this place fit me like an
(38:24):
itchy sweater and. And I also think further than
that is that anyone whose opinion you really do care of,
care for would say we don't wantyou to feel that way.
Yeah. And I think that if I'm allowed
to go to New York City, I'm thrilled to see them all and
hang out to New York City. It's not so far.
(38:46):
And yeah, I think that's just a place that I always felt more
comfortable in. For sure.
And you? So East London, South Africa is
my hometown. I would say that's where I grew
up. That's where I spent most of my
time as a young person. And I think that East London
probably saw enough of me. I saw enough of East London.
(39:07):
And I think if I can't go back again, I would accept it.
You know, at some point in time,I would love to go back because,
you know, of the memories that were there and people who are
still there. But I also feel as though my
time and there has come and gone, you know, And I don't
think that it's really a statement on whether or not it's
(39:30):
a good place or a nice place filled with nice people.
No, not at. All not at all.
It's just I don't fit in there anymore.
I don't think I'm that person. Even if I did need to go back to
South Africa, I probably wouldn't go back to East London
just because I feel like I'm a different person that doesn't
fit in there anymore and I thinkthat that's OK.
All right. Would you rather live in a city
(39:51):
that feels like home but a housethat's very uncomfortable, or a
house that feels like home in a city that's very uncomfortable?
And this is interesting because in this whole discussion about
what is home, we didn't really talk much about the house.
You did a little bit about that feeling of comfort and warmth,
but we didn't really talk much about the house being part of
(40:15):
what home is. So what?
What do you choose here? You know, it's a really good
question and to be honest with you, I think I would have had a
really good answer for this before COVID.
Because I think when COVID came around, it really snapped me a
little bit in terms of understanding how important it
(40:35):
is to live in a place that you're actually comfortable.
Because I really looked at a lotof our friends and family who
live a different kind of lifestyle where they would
really use the place that they're living, they're
dwelling. That's called a, that their
house as really just a base to sleep and eat basically.
And then the rest of their liveswere at work or in other
(40:59):
activities and places. But then the second COVID came
around, those people were stuck inside those houses.
And I could tell that a lot of them were really not comfortable
in the place that they were staying.
And, and it's not a, you know, it's not a judgement thing.
It's just, well, you didn't planfor that because no one planned
for any COVID stuff to happen, of course.
So now they were all of a suddenin like some of some of our
(41:22):
friends in New York who live in tiny apartments are like, well,
now we are spending 24 hours a day in a tiny, tiny apartment,
and they didn't get that apartment to spend 24 hours a
day in. It no one lives in New York City
to spend time in their apartment.
Exactly. And so that really sort of, you
know, blew me away of thinking, well, how much more important is
(41:45):
it for me to live in a place where I'm comfortable?
And so, you know, in terms of answering the question here, I
would say, and again, like maybelinking to the rest of the
podcast is maybe having a comfortable house might be more
important to me because I feel as though if you, me and Henry
(42:07):
are happy together and we're comfortable where we are right
now, then I can deal with an uncomfortable city.
That's my base. Wow so I feel the exact
opposite. I am going with the comfortable
city and I am fine to be in a tiny uncomfortable apt.
I also just think I I don't minda tiny uncomfortable apartment
(42:29):
nearly as much as you do. Well, I think a big part of it
is that you do spend a lot more of your time outside of the
house, like going on adventures and activities and stuff.
And I, I am naturally a lot moreof an introverted person who
enjoys spending time inside and reading and learning and doing
interesting stuff, you know, on my own.
(42:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, I think that makessense for sure.
OK, Next. One OK, last one Would you
rather hear a song that transports you back to childhood
every day or smell something that transports you back to
childhood every day? And remember, this is going to
happen every single day. So you're going to hear
(43:10):
something that brings you back to childhood every day, or
you're going to smell something.Is it the same song or the same
smell? Or is it like different smells?
Different smells, different songs, but something that
instantly takes you back to childhood.
It's either a sound or a smell. It's going to happen every day.
Oh, you go first on this one. So I'm going smell because I
(43:33):
think that no, I'm changing it. I'm going so, so first I was
going to say I'm going smell because I didn't want that like
distraction of the song. But I'm trying to think of like
what all of the smells are that are going to take me back to
childhood. And I can't think of nearly as
many as songs. I can think of so many songs
(43:54):
that would take me straight backto the 90s, and I think that
could be really fun. Even though it would be a bit
more disruptive to the day. I think the smell would be more
subtle and maybe easier for an everyday thing.
I think the sound. Is disruptive.
What is going to happen to you after you hear the song Zone out
(44:16):
for for the length of the Sun? I don't.
I'm definitely going to sing along.
You've met me. I sing along to every song.
But yeah, I think the diversity of songs is greater that would
be able to transport me back to childhood than the diversity of
smells. OK, so here's the other thing
that I'm going to ask you about this, right?
(44:36):
And I think this is a good question.
So when you this when you talk about those songs, that's fine,
but how many of those songs are going to transport you back to
painful memories or difficult? There's one song, it's called
Fight Song by I don't even know her.
(44:57):
Rachel Platten, if I'm not mistaken.
Rachel Platten Platten Rachel Platten And when my mom was
first diagnosed with cancer, that song came out and she was
on like the Today show or something like that.
And she told her story of she was diagnosed with cancer and
(45:18):
she got better and she's fully cancer free now.
And this is her song. And I'm getting emotional but I
need a second do. It all the time, my love.
But I would sing that song in the car by myself at the top of
my lungs, really thinking that my mom would get better too, and
(45:47):
she didn't. So I can't listen to it ever
again because even talking aboutthat song, it's too much for me.
That's the only song I can thinkof that makes me feel that way.
It's that song like you talk about, like what songs have bad
memories? That song, I cannot handle that
(46:07):
song. If it's on in a store, I walk
out. If it's on anywhere like I
cannot listen to that song. I'm super glad that song isn't
around anymore. I didn't share the same
experience with anyone who passed away from cancer the same
way that you had. But I really have always
questioned very strongly that concept of fighting cancer.
(46:34):
Yeah. There used to be a huge ad
campaign in South Africa. I don't know, people of a
certain age might remember it, where that was the theme of it,
you know, fighting cancer. And I remember even as a young
kid thinking so did all of the people who they didn't, who
passed away from this, they didn't fight.
That doesn't make any sense. They didn't.
(46:54):
Try hard. Enough, they didn't try hard
enough. And I'm like, but I kind of
don't understand that because it's the same thing as, I don't
know, having a heart attack. It's being like, oh, so you
didn't try hard enough to overcome that, did you Not like,
you know, squeeze hard enough and you to to survive this.
And, like, that's how my dad died.
And I don't think that he was flying on the ground thinking I
(47:17):
should make a bit more of an effort.
Yeah. And I think that that's really a
terrible thing that we've actually created.
I don't think that there was anythought behind that marketing
spiel, to be honest, to create that.
But yeah. Well, at least it's only one
song. Exactly.
So I think I've got a lot of good memory songs to choose
(47:37):
from. And you know, here's the thing.
I'm going to be brave, Liz, and I'm going to say smells OK,
Because you know, I feel as though like obviously even
today, I mean for by the rest, we have memories associated to
songs, right? And that's cool and I think
that's fine. But I feel as though that when I
get smells, I feel almost closerto that memory.
(48:01):
OK, I don't know why. I don't know how my brain is
wired for that to be the reality.
But when I get that smell, I have this like pretty, I don't
know, almost like sci-fi kind ofreaction to it of being in that
time and place again. And like I was saying, I think I
(48:22):
alluded to it a couple of times in this podcast of remembering,
you know, the smell of the cooking, remembering the smell
of the of the perfume and. The fire.
And the smell of the fire and the car poop and stuff like
that. But, you know, I remember some
of my favorite memories in my life were in India.
And, man, India is wild for smells.
Yeah, right, India, man. Like, you know, your olfactory
(48:45):
nerve is working overtime there.And what I loved so much about
it was the extreme nature of everything, where you'd be
walking down a road and you would smell the most delicious
food cooking in the world ever of all time kind of thing.
Like, you know, you're like a cartoon character, like floating
in the air and then like 2 meters further down the road is
(49:09):
like raw sewage and like just, you know, the worst smells that
humanity could create, They're in your nostrils too.
And, and the thing that I think for me is just that extreme
swing of the good and the bad and the memories associated to
(49:29):
them. I kind of, I kind of feel a
little bit of a rush being like being like, what?
What's the dice going to show interms of your flashback today?
You know, so it might be, it might be sewage or it might be a
delicious biryani, you know, and, and I think I'm willing to,
I'm willing to roll those dice. Because you're happy either way.
(49:50):
I think so. You know, You're, you're, you're
living, you know. But anyway, that was really our
episode for this week. And it was the concept of what
is home, where is home, who is home?
And I want to thank you all for joining us in this discussion
and this topic. And we really went through a lot
(50:10):
in it. And I really am glad that we had
this opportunity to share this with you.
We want to say thank you again to Anastasia for sending through
her thoughts and feelings. It was really good to hear and
to know that there's someone else who feels so similarly to
us. And also thank you for sharing
those special moments with us aslisteners.
(50:34):
And if you've got anything that you want to share, anything that
you want to talk about, please reach out to us.
We're on Expats Listen on Instagram, or you can e-mail us
on expats, listen@gmail.com. Reach out, make some contact
with us. We will be able to tell you
about what's happening in our next episode.
(50:54):
We can chat around it and you can tell us what you think about
whatever it is that we're going to be talking about in our next
episode. We'd love to share with you the
same way we did this week, and until then, we're sending you
all of our best goodbye.
Welcome to Expats Listen with Ryan and Liz, the podcast where
we tell the truth about living abroad.
Not just the fun, amazing I'm having a great time on vacation
every day, but the reality of a true life that we're building in
another country. I'm Ryan.
And I'm Liz and this week we aretalking about a big one.
(00:23):
The question is, what is home? When I was 24, I was backpacking
for the very first time. I was staying in this
overcrowded hostel in Argentina,and I went to an Internet cafe
to Skype my mom. That's how long ago this was.
We were finishing the conversation and I said, all
right, I should get home, I'll talk to you soon.
(00:44):
And she said you're coming home when I had just meant that I was
going back to the hostel to go to sleep for the night and she
thought that I was going to comehome to New York.
I had to backtrack really, really quickly.
And we had to actually have likeanother 20 minute conversation
where I told her that I loved her and that I missed her.
(01:06):
But I was doing this trip and I wasn't leaving and I wasn't
quitting and all of this. And that's when I really
realized that the word home can mean such different things.
So let's get into it. Let's dig in.
What is home, Ryan? Why don't why don't you tell us
what it means to? You.
(01:26):
Oh, I don't know, A big part of me hasn't been looking forward
to this episode because of how emotional some of the stuff is.
So I feel as though it's a warm,safe environment that is
characterized by a dwelling, a house that is warm and
(01:51):
comfortable and has space for meand has all my favorite things
and doesn't change too much and has a faint smell of my mom's
cooking. And I am happy there and my dog
(02:12):
is there and life is calm and tranquil and that's it.
And I think that AM. I.
There Well, but that's the thingI think it's such a good
question because it's actually based in time, not necessarily
in concept. So I'm thinking back to my
(02:35):
childhood and what I would have idealized at that point and how
that imprinted on me going forward through life of being
like what is life? I don't imagine my home right
now, including my my parents andmy brother and the dogs that we
had his children. But that was what the concept of
home was then, because I experienced it in a different
(02:57):
way. Okay.
I was less of a participant in my home at that stage.
I was a dependent person on the people who were responsible for
running that home. And that was, and that was how I
experienced it as opposed to nowI'm defining what home is on a
day-to-day basis because it's how we live together.
And you are my home. I know, you know, we'll probably
(03:18):
discuss more of the current concept of home in a second.
But yeah, I, I think it's a lot more idyllic and stereotypical
and kind of boring, if I'm honest.
And I think that that living in a space in time points to the
fact that it might be quite antiquated in how I think about
(03:40):
it now. So when you think about the word
home, now you're thinking of that childhood definition,
You're not thinking of your adult life home.
No, not at all. Because when you say to me, what
do you think of home? And that's what the question
was. My mind goes back to that point
and and I know that I don't livethat way and I know that that's
(04:04):
not what my life is right now, despite the fact that my home
right now is with you, wherever we happen to be, maybe in
Portugal, all of these kinds of things.
And how do I feel about where I belong now?
But it really does come down to sort of some basic stuff of
South Africa. South Africa is home to me.
(04:25):
Then further than that, it was either Durban, where I was born,
or East London where I grew up is.
One of those more home than the other.
You see that's, that's I think maybe where it does start to get
a bit more dynamic for me because then it starts coming up
as being, well, a lot of my extended family were from Durban
and that is where I remember a lot of the best and most warm
(04:49):
moments in my life. So I'm a bit confused about that
even for myself, Right. So that's Durban having more of
a homely role than East London, even when East London was my
home in a greater sense. But maybe it's closer to saying
that all of these places have been home.
Yeah, I think it's really interesting because it's just so
(05:10):
different from how I look at it.And I think for me, home
generally is just where I'm sleeping that night.
But we have a dog, and Henry is a big part of home, and you,
Ryan, are a big part of home to me.
So it's wherever we're sleeping that night, if it's all three of
(05:35):
us, because if all three of us are together and we're in Mars
or Uruguay or Mongolia or wherever we're home.
We are. And that's The thing is that
like there's nowhere else I would rather be than with you
and Henry, wherever that might need to be.
If I'm down at the shop and you give me a call and you say when
(05:57):
are you coming home, I'd be like, OK, it wouldn't take a
long time. I would like to sit and like
ponder about it. But I would have a second where
I would be like, oh, oh, yeah, I'll be back at the apartment in
a few minutes. And I would be referring to the
apartment that we were staying. And I know that you would made
the connection that this was home, but I would have first at
(06:17):
this point in time thought aboutare you asking me when are we
going to go back to Portugal? And then if it's not that, then
I'm like. Am I asking you when we're going
to South? Are you thinking?
About like when we're going to maybe no, but not even that.
Maybe maybe South Africa, sure, maybe the United States, maybe
New York or Las Vegas. And I'm like, okay, and and
(06:38):
that's, and that's what I'm saying is that it's not
necessarily about whether any ofthose things are true or correct
or right. It's true, there's no right or.
Wrong. There's no right wrong, but I do
cycle through all of those options instead of there just
being one. Yeah, that's really complicated.
And I think that's the whole point, right?
That when you don't live in the place that you were born, this
(07:00):
word becomes really complicated.And I think that's what it is
for me. It's moving away from that
idealized version of warm, safe,familiar into as long as I'm
close to these people. That is what home actually
means. And it's a different feeling to
what home felt like when I was 10 years old.
(07:22):
This definitely ties back into homesickness and what we miss
about home. Because even though here I am
saying that home is wherever I happen to be sleeping tonight, I
definitely still feel those homesick feelings.
And when I really think about it, what I actually miss is a
(07:43):
life that doesn't exist anymore.For example, New York City when
I was 22 was absolute magic. My high school friends and my
college friends came together, We expanded our groups.
We had all graduated, just got jobs, and we're making money for
the very first time. We were partying until 6:00 AM,
(08:04):
grabbing a slice of pizza, and then going straight to the
office to work. We had no plans except for each
other. So any weekend night there was a
plan with friends and most weeknights there was too.
I was seeing multiple Broadway shows per month with student
tickets or last minute tickets. I was eating foods that I had
(08:26):
never heard of before and falling in love with
international cuisine because there was this ridiculous
website calledrestaurant.com that you could get 70% or 90%
off at restaurants, and we just went to every restaurant that we
could. We also had almost no
responsibilities and no idea what we were doing, but our
(08:48):
confidence, the confidence that we felt like we were on top of
the world. And when I tell you that I miss
New York City, what I actually miss is that.
Is that missing 22 year old Liz?Exactly.
That's exactly what it's missing.
(09:10):
And when I talk about the Long Island that I miss, it's where
my mom was healthy. And we went on adventures that
always seem to end with eating Carvel ice cream in the car
while I sang every word of everysong off key and far too loud.
And she laughed at me until I started laughing.
And then we both laughed until we cried.
(09:31):
And that version of home, for me?
That's just my mom. Like what is home?
Who is home? It's her and she's not here.
So that version of home, it justdoesn't exist for me anymore.
(09:53):
And now? And now I think that's why it's
it's you guys, right? Because I can't go back to those
places. I wouldn't have that experience
even if I did. I think, Ryan, you know almost
better than anyone that if you wanted me to stay up until 6:00
AM partying, I would be a grumpymonster for maybe 3 days
(10:16):
afterward from the lack of sleep.
And my mom passed away almost a decade ago.
Now, my friends who saw each other 345 times a week, now
they're seeing each other two, three times a year.
Life is different. We all have more
responsibilities. People have kids, they have
(10:37):
ailing parents, they have jobs that have stolen parts of their
souls. They also live further away from
each other, and an hour and a half on the subway feels a lot
longer in your 30s and 40s than it did at 22.
So what am I homesick for? Maybe it's my youth.
(10:59):
I think that makes complete sense.
It's who we were at that time. It's how we understood the world
around us. I think when I look back at the
more practical examples of what do I miss about that home at
that time? Sometimes you would get home
after school or late in the afternoon, maybe after sport or
(11:21):
something, and you walk in and your mom's been cooking.
And then there's that smell of what was cooking.
And I come from a historically and ethnically Indian
background, which means that it was probably some type of Curry
or masala being cooked. And there's a specific smell
(11:42):
that you get from the steps of making that Curry.
So you start off with toasting the spices, then putting ginger
and garlic in and then putting in tomato and then putting in
the meat. And there's a whole, there's a
whole recipe to follow in makingthat.
And when you get home, you can smell what was in the pot and
(12:05):
you understood this is how far along that dish was.
And this is how long I need to wait and.
This is how long you would need to wait until dinner was ready.
And that was such an incredible feeling to know that that was
something that I got to experience when I came home on
so many days. It wasn't every day, but it
(12:26):
really made me feel like that was what home was like.
And even today, if I'm making some kind of carry in our
kitchen, one of my favorite things about it, aside from
eating it at the end, is the smell of that.
And it's really just a fascinating thing because
there's so many strange things that trigger those memories of
(12:50):
home that don't really exist in day-to-day life anymore other
than through almost random exposure.
One of the crazy things is I remember when I was a young,
young boy, I watched some silly kids show where they taught you
how to make potpourri. And, and I don't know why, but I
felt like I needed to follow that advice.
(13:12):
And I went to go make this potpourri and I used my mom's
perfume and it was a ridiculous amount of perfume.
And really everything in the house smelled that way for
months. And that particular perfume
today, if I smell even anything similar to it, it takes me all
(13:36):
the way back to that particular day making.
Potpourri. Making potpourri in this house,
the smell of the Polish that we used on the floors at that time,
You know, coming from South Africa, Liz can attest to this.
Absolutely. If we're driving down the road
today and I see someone burning something on a hill far away and
(14:01):
I know that we're going to drivepast.
He immediately rolls down all the windows.
I will open my windows because Iwant to smell the smell of that
smoke of hopefully what is wood burning, because it was such an
important part of what it is that I experienced growing up.
And I'm desperate to get that smell, especially when I know
(14:22):
that I can get it, you know? And I'm like, oh, no, I'd like,
I'll walk past a fire just to smell the smoke because that's
what my life used to be. Yeah.
I think the other thing we hear in Ireland and we're walking
through many sort of fields withanimals around it.
I had no idea how little time people outside of Africa spent
(14:45):
with animals. Yeah, in New York 0.
We, we. We, we, we had that as a very
regular experience in South Africa growing up.
Goats, sheep, cattle, antelope, zebras, giraffes, you would see
those on a very regular basis. And since leaving South Africa,
I didn't know that other people lived at any other way.
(15:07):
So now when I see cow poop, I have this warm feeling because
it takes me back to the days where I used to stand in cow
poop all the time. It was a very common thing for
me. And living a life where that
isn't common to me anymore meansthat I feel like, wow, home is
(15:29):
really far away in terms of timeand distance, because that was
such a big part of my life at that stage.
And it's not like you're saying you miss standing in Cal, you
miss the person that you were when you were standing in Calpol
it. Was just, it was the way life
was. It was who I was.
It was where I was. It was who I was with.
(15:51):
It was just that was the realityof it.
I wasn't imagining any life other than that because that was
the only one that I had and and that was how I felt.
And I think, yeah, you know, when you look back now at what
it is that built that concept ofhome in our brains, it's such an
interesting combination of things.
(16:12):
It's certainly the memories of what we did and who was there
and what happened. But there's also the songs.
There was also the food. There was also the smells.
There was also the textures. You know, car seats feel
different today than how they used to be.
So much furniture used to be plastic.
(16:35):
And I can feel the stickiness ofthe plastic on the back of my
legs on a summer's day in my grandmother's house.
And that was a big part of how Ifelt home when I used to visit
her in the late 90s. And that's, I think The thing is
that maybe I underestimate how much of home is right now
(16:59):
because I'm not remembering it. I'm just doing it right now.
I think what you're saying, it'sso true that you don't even know
that you miss it until you experience it somewhere else.
And then you're like, oh, that smell or wow, that song.
When's the last time you heard that song?
And you automatically go back there.
(17:22):
And I really think that there's something kind of beautiful
about those memories and that nostalgia for who we used to be,
and I'm so grateful that we get to remember it now.
They are the best, some of the best memories that we will ever
(17:42):
have. And I'm so grateful to have had
them as an experience and to have them in my brain as a
memory. And I think that's The thing is
that, you know, when I talk about and when we think about it
in the context of being expats now, again, it's one of these
things that jump out and it's sounashamedly complicated.
(18:05):
And I think that's kind of beautiful in and of itself, you
know, of looking back at things and saying, well, I'm supposed
to feel this way. I'm supposed to think this way.
This is what home was supposed to be.
This is what home is supposed tobe.
Now. This is what I'm supposed to
build for myself and for my children and for the society and
(18:25):
community that I live in. And The thing is that none of
this is simple. None of this makes logical
sense. None of it fits together in a
puzzle piece to create this beautiful picture.
It's actually just a series of like beautiful but smeared paint
stains. That's really what life really
(18:46):
is. And I think that's really a
fascinating thing because when we started this conversation,
you asked me what do I think I'mwas even now like after having
this conversation, I look back at it and I think it was such a
mishmash of different concepts and different memories and
different things that I remembered and felt.
And maybe that's true today about what my life is right now.
(19:11):
And by sitting there and imagining how everything should
be in a box and how everything should be prioritized and
categorized and valued accordingly, and how different
people have a specific role to play, I think that might be a
mistake. I think looking at it as a
(19:32):
holistic experience of this thing happened to me and that
was what my life was might be a bit more comforting in that
maybe we are being too hard on ourselves about needing to be
the people who we were supposed to be and experiences and life
(19:53):
being what they were supposed tobe.
You know, one of the things thatwe do every year is we struggle
heavily at Christmas time because we aren't really in a
place where we can plug into Christmases that are in any way
connected to the Christmases we had as young people.
(20:15):
And so it leaves us in a very difficult situation sometimes
where we need to do something for the Christmas season.
To almost hide from the fact that we don't have homes like we
used to anymore and we find ourselves doing some of the
strangest things. But we have to do those things
(20:38):
because that's what home is now.And we can't plug into what home
used to be because it doesn't exist anymore.
And. I think it's more than just what
we do in our traditions and all of that.
It's if you have to say, like what place is home for you?
New York is home for me. Yeah, OK.
(20:59):
But my family lives in Vegas, soVegas is home for me.
But I live in Portugal, so Portugal is home for me.
But I lived in Sydney for many years and that still feels like
home for me. And I am in Ireland right now
and if you were to ask like whenare you going home?
I'm thinking of the apartment that we're currently staying and
(21:21):
then that's what I'm going home.So the the place that I
currently am is home for me. And maybe maybe that's it.
Maybe home isn't one thing and it's not one place.
And I just feel sad if I try to choose, because I can't choose
(21:45):
one without not choosing another.
And to say that Portugal is definitively my home means that
New York isn't anymore. And who?
It's also, I mean, it's also considering the fact that we
might not live in Portugal for the rest of our lives.
We probably won't. So, so so does it make sense for
us to call it home right now? Maybe, maybe not.
(22:07):
I don't know. I'm just saying the the fluidity
of that concept is so off the charts.
And I think that when you start living the expect life, I think
it's one of the first things that gets pulled out from you
like a rag. Because it's the one of the
first times where you sit and you ask yourself wherever and
(22:30):
whenever it might be where is home.
Because you'll ask yourself thatquestion and no one else can
answer it for you. And then will be an answer to
that. And that answer is really going
to go a long way in deciding howyou feel about where you are.
And I think that answer is probably going to change, if not
(22:51):
every day, every couple of hourseven.
I I think how you're feeling, ifyou're in a good mood, if you
slept well, if you had a good interaction, if your visa is
sorted, there are so many ways that make you feel comfortable.
And I guess we're talking about home being comfort.
And I think sort of living in that flux of this concept,
(23:16):
ebbing and flowing and changing shape and feeling more or less
intense is such a big part of being an expert.
Loving your home where you are and then hating it and then
loving it again and then needingto leave and starting again.
And man, it is just exhausting and exhilarating and stressful
(23:42):
and fun and scary and comforting.
And I think that's one of the great things about being an
expert and living this life, because I kind of justify the
experience to myself by saying, at the end of my life, did I
squeeze out as much as I could from the experience?
(24:06):
Because if I did, I would need to expect there to have been
lots of high highs and unfortunately some terribly low
lows. And home, I think, becomes a lot
more of an emotional risk because of how much feeling and
emotion is attached to it. Let's hear from a listener.
(24:29):
We are lucky enough to have Anastasia who has given us her
thoughts on what is home and what does she miss.
Hi Liz and Ryan, thank you so much for inviting your listeners
to join the exert. I find every topic you discuss
(24:50):
so relatable, so being able to be a part of this means a lot.
Thank you so much. My name is Anastasia, as I would
say it in my language, Anastasia, but I guess adapting
your name for international purposes is a whole a whole
different big subject in itself.Speaking about home, I think I
(25:14):
have, I feel I have two homes. I was born in the Soviet Union
and grew up in post Soviet Russia.
In my mid 20s I moved to the UK.My husband's British and we have
two kids now. So I've never been a parent.
I've never experienced what it is to be a mum in the country
(25:35):
where I grew up. So it it kind of creates this
interesting dynamic. We also lived in Spain for four
years, and last month we moved to the Netherlands.
Yeah, it's a bit of a mix. So when I think about home, I do
think about Russia and I think about the UK and what makes me
(25:56):
miss Russia. And I guess when we talk about a
place, we also talk about a particular time that we connect
to that place. So most of my brightest memories
and attributes, they are connected with my, with my
childhood, with growing up. So that would be songs mostly
(26:19):
songs that I used to listen to as a kid.
I used to look forward to at a camp dance, something that would
play in in the house, something to dance to.
You know, that happy sort of state that that I connect, that
(26:41):
I attribute to the songs that used to.
But I still have on my Spotify, I still have playlists from the
90s and 2000s that I listen to every now and again if I want to
have that feeling. And if we talk about smells and
New Year's Eve is huge in Russiabecause we don't celebrate
(27:05):
Christmas the same way as the Western world, so to speak.
So New Year's Eve is the biggestnight.
And usually we make a lot of food.
And you might know something that people in Europe often
called the Russian salad is a salad, you know, a mix of
potatoes and cooked vegetables and meat with mayonnaise.
(27:29):
So that salad is, to me, that isthe smell and the taste of
celebration. It means that the house will be
happy, will be full of people celebrating something,
especially New Year's Eve. So that's one part of that.
You know that the home that I associate with my childhood and
(27:52):
my other home, the UK, that I experienced more as a more
mature person. I would say that it's British
telly. Somebody may say it's not great,
but what I love about it is the type of humour the British
(28:12):
people have and you know that the you can't really teach that
or you can't really explain that.
You can live it and you can understand that with with time.
So now living abroad again, I domiss British television and TV
series and programs that they show on BBC.
(28:36):
So that's that. Thanks again for having me and
hope you have a good week. Bye.
I loved that so much. Thank you again so much to
Anastasia. Anastasia, however we want to
say. But really, I think it's so good
to hear from other people. I love that she went straight to
(28:57):
places. We didn't go straight to places,
but she went straight to places and then brought in the time
element. And I think it is so true,
right? It's exactly what we were
saying, how a place is inextricably tied to the time
that you were there. You could feel how special those
(29:17):
things were to her in developingthat idea of home.
Like, you know, that those are core aspects to who she is as a
person because I think we identify with so much of it, but
you can also hear it in her voice.
And I, I really appreciated hearing because I kind of feel
(29:39):
like it's a lot of validation for how it is that we feel.
You know, I think like one of the things that stood out for me
there, and I think I'd mentionedit earlier about the, the smell
of food cooking. You know, she was, she was
talking about the smells. And one of the things that I
think about, which was so stupidin retrospect, was my mom used
to use this perfume, which was designed, I guess.
(30:04):
So the brand was Elizabeth Arden, right?
And I know how fancy that is. But then in my little childhood
brain at that stage, I didn't know that Elizabeth Arden was
someone who I'd never seen before.
So my connection was then to Elizabeth Taylor.
So I was like, oh, so that's thelady who makes this perfume.
(30:25):
But then the worst thing about it is that it wasn't actually
Elizabeth Taylor that I was imagining in my head.
It was Liza Minnelli. So every time your mom sprayed
this Elizabeth Arden perfume, you were like, oh, Liza Minnelli
loves. This and even today when I watch
Arrested Development, which she's an actress, I'm like, oh,
(30:47):
you know, this lady must smell fantastic.
I also loved what she said aboutthe TV because it is the
weirdest things that stay with you.
Let's, let's, let's talk about this, Liz, because please, I
think this is going to cover so many different things that we've
talked about in the past and we probably will talk about going
(31:10):
forward is that the best things aren't always the best things.
Not at all. Sometimes the worst things are
the best things. Really.
Kraft Mac and Cheese for you. Delicious.
It is not coming out of a chef'skitchen, it is coming out of a
box, but the comfort and love that it gives you is not
something you can find anywhere else.
(31:32):
Didn't he more? Beef Stew is a canned soup that
my grandma used to have all the time and we used to have all the
time as kids, and eating that can of soup stays good for
(31:52):
decades. Delicious.
I can't imagine that someone who's never had it before would
think that it was good, but I think that it is incredible.
You can't underestimate how important those things are.
Blue slushy, you know, blue is not even a flavour, but it is
(32:13):
filled with deliciousness. In South Africa we have an
instant coffee brand called Frisco, right?
And Frisco, Man, I don't. I don't mean to offend anyone at
the Frisco factory, but I don't even know how much of it is
actual coffee. But it is such a comforting
(32:33):
drink, filled with the memories of a lifetime before I had moved
to Portugal, and I will drink itsimply for that fact.
It's nowhere near acceptable coffee standards, but the
comfort inside that I know Liz and I sometimes get into
arguments because Liz is the main shopper in our
(32:56):
relationship. So I will say, hey, listen, can
you pick up XYZ at the supermarket when you happen to
be there? And she will come back and
she'll say, oh, you know what? You asked for noodles.
So I got you these noodles. And they will be the fanciest
noodles. Well, I will get whatever's on
sale. So he asks for lasagna noodles.
(33:18):
And this was a this was an infamous, infamous argument that
Liz and I had for real. So the fresh lasagna noodles
were on sale and they were cheaper than the dried ones.
And I was like, that's a no brainer.
I'm going to get him the fresh one.
Cheaper than the equally, equally cheap bad lasagna
noodles. Yes.
(33:38):
So, yeah. So it was like this was a race
to the bottom. But basically the whole thing
was I didn't want the fancy noodles because the fancy
noodles are too fancy and they don't taste as crap as the bad
noodles do. But I want to taste the crap bad
noodles because that's what reminds me of of the good days,
you know? And I don't think that's such a
(34:00):
common thing to happen. But, yeah.
And it stays just remarks about the memories that she's got off
the different places. Like, you know, she was talking
about New Year's. I, I feel as though, like the
times that I remember as being the best in my life were times
(34:20):
that I didn't expect things to have had such a big impact on me
for the rest of my life. There was a New Year's party in
2002 when I was in 11th grade and it was the best New Year's
party I ever went to. I was with my friends, it was
(34:42):
near the beach. Amazing party.
We didn't drink any alcohol. I'm.
Sure. And you know, we just had the
most amazing time. And that's fine because that's
young people enjoying a party. But what I found interesting was
that was the template that I have chased for New Year's
(35:04):
parties since then. And it'll never live up.
And nothing has ever lived up and nothing ever will live up
because it wasn't a case of thatparty objectively being
particularly good. We just had a really good time.
And that then imprinted on my brain as being the ideal.
And I think this is another partof what is home.
(35:26):
It's these one off things that happened that this thing
happened and it was incredible. And that feels like a memory
that I'm holding on to and home to me.
But also like on a Siso saying these things that happen every
year and it's the same thing andit's not Frisco doesn't taste
good to you because you had it once first.
(35:48):
It tastes good to you because you had it so many times.
And it's the repetition of thesethings that just become normal.
And that's why we love them so much, no?
That makes sense. No, no, absolutely.
Yeah, No. Really incredible.
I thank you so much, Anastasia of mine.
That really made me think about similar things, you know, that
(36:09):
I've gone through in my life. And it's really good to know
that I'm not alone in that, you know?
For sure. And I think that's the whole
purpose that we wanted to start a podcast in the 1st place
because there are so many expatsand immigrants out there who are
experiencing the same things butnot talking about them.
And we really wanted to have that place where you could feel
(36:34):
like someone gets it. Well.
Let's wrap it up. Yeah, let's go.
Are you ready for our Would You Rather Home edition?
Let's do it. I'm ready.
All right, would you rather livein your hometown forever or
never be able to visit again? Well, what is your hometown,
Liz? So I think my hometown would be
(36:56):
on Long Island, where I spent most of my childhood.
OK. OK.
And so would you rather never goback or live there?
Forever. And I think this is such a
complicated question for me because is New York City counted
in this? Because if I want to be cheeky
about it, I am very happy to never go to Long Island to get
(37:17):
if I get to go to New York City.But if New York City is
included. Look, it's not, we're not going
to do gerrymandering here for you.
I'm just Long Island. Is Long Island the city is the
city. Yeah.
Yeah. Would you?
So let's limit it reasonably to just Long Island, OK?
Then if it's just Long Island then unfortunately I will never
(37:40):
visit again. Do you say that with any kind of
concern about what people might say about not wanting to stay
there? Because we both have people in
our lives who have stayed in ourhometowns.
I think that we were talking earlier about a place that you
feel comfortable in and my family was incredible.
(38:01):
My family is incredible and I have fantastic friends in Long
Island and there's so many people there that I truly, truly
love. But I never felt comfortable in
that place. I never felt like I belonged.
I I think that I always knew that this place fit me like an
(38:24):
itchy sweater and. And I also think further than
that is that anyone whose opinion you really do care of,
care for would say we don't wantyou to feel that way.
Yeah. And I think that if I'm allowed
to go to New York City, I'm thrilled to see them all and
hang out to New York City. It's not so far.
(38:46):
And yeah, I think that's just a place that I always felt more
comfortable in. For sure.
And you? So East London, South Africa is
my hometown. I would say that's where I grew
up. That's where I spent most of my
time as a young person. And I think that East London
probably saw enough of me. I saw enough of East London.
(39:07):
And I think if I can't go back again, I would accept it.
You know, at some point in time,I would love to go back because,
you know, of the memories that were there and people who are
still there. But I also feel as though my
time and there has come and gone, you know, And I don't
think that it's really a statement on whether or not it's
(39:30):
a good place or a nice place filled with nice people.
No, not at. All not at all.
It's just I don't fit in there anymore.
I don't think I'm that person. Even if I did need to go back to
South Africa, I probably wouldn't go back to East London
just because I feel like I'm a different person that doesn't
fit in there anymore and I thinkthat that's OK.
All right. Would you rather live in a city
(39:51):
that feels like home but a housethat's very uncomfortable, or a
house that feels like home in a city that's very uncomfortable?
And this is interesting because in this whole discussion about
what is home, we didn't really talk much about the house.
You did a little bit about that feeling of comfort and warmth,
but we didn't really talk much about the house being part of
(40:15):
what home is. So what?
What do you choose here? You know, it's a really good
question and to be honest with you, I think I would have had a
really good answer for this before COVID.
Because I think when COVID came around, it really snapped me a
little bit in terms of understanding how important it
(40:35):
is to live in a place that you're actually comfortable.
Because I really looked at a lotof our friends and family who
live a different kind of lifestyle where they would
really use the place that they're living, they're
dwelling. That's called a, that their
house as really just a base to sleep and eat basically.
And then the rest of their liveswere at work or in other
(40:59):
activities and places. But then the second COVID came
around, those people were stuck inside those houses.
And I could tell that a lot of them were really not comfortable
in the place that they were staying.
And, and it's not a, you know, it's not a judgement thing.
It's just, well, you didn't planfor that because no one planned
for any COVID stuff to happen, of course.
So now they were all of a suddenin like some of some of our
(41:22):
friends in New York who live in tiny apartments are like, well,
now we are spending 24 hours a day in a tiny, tiny apartment,
and they didn't get that apartment to spend 24 hours a
day in. It no one lives in New York City
to spend time in their apartment.
Exactly. And so that really sort of, you
know, blew me away of thinking, well, how much more important is
(41:45):
it for me to live in a place where I'm comfortable?
And so, you know, in terms of answering the question here, I
would say, and again, like maybelinking to the rest of the
podcast is maybe having a comfortable house might be more
important to me because I feel as though if you, me and Henry
(42:07):
are happy together and we're comfortable where we are right
now, then I can deal with an uncomfortable city.
That's my base. Wow so I feel the exact
opposite. I am going with the comfortable
city and I am fine to be in a tiny uncomfortable apt.
I also just think I I don't minda tiny uncomfortable apartment
(42:29):
nearly as much as you do. Well, I think a big part of it
is that you do spend a lot more of your time outside of the
house, like going on adventures and activities and stuff.
And I, I am naturally a lot moreof an introverted person who
enjoys spending time inside and reading and learning and doing
interesting stuff, you know, on my own.
(42:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, I think that makessense for sure.
OK, Next. One OK, last one Would you
rather hear a song that transports you back to childhood
every day or smell something that transports you back to
childhood every day? And remember, this is going to
happen every single day. So you're going to hear
(43:10):
something that brings you back to childhood every day, or
you're going to smell something.Is it the same song or the same
smell? Or is it like different smells?
Different smells, different songs, but something that
instantly takes you back to childhood.
It's either a sound or a smell. It's going to happen every day.
Oh, you go first on this one. So I'm going smell because I
(43:33):
think that no, I'm changing it. I'm going so, so first I was
going to say I'm going smell because I didn't want that like
distraction of the song. But I'm trying to think of like
what all of the smells are that are going to take me back to
childhood. And I can't think of nearly as
many as songs. I can think of so many songs
(43:54):
that would take me straight backto the 90s, and I think that
could be really fun. Even though it would be a bit
more disruptive to the day. I think the smell would be more
subtle and maybe easier for an everyday thing.
I think the sound. Is disruptive.
What is going to happen to you after you hear the song Zone out
(44:16):
for for the length of the Sun? I don't.
I'm definitely going to sing along.
You've met me. I sing along to every song.
But yeah, I think the diversity of songs is greater that would
be able to transport me back to childhood than the diversity of
smells. OK, so here's the other thing
that I'm going to ask you about this, right?
(44:36):
And I think this is a good question.
So when you this when you talk about those songs, that's fine,
but how many of those songs are going to transport you back to
painful memories or difficult? There's one song, it's called
Fight Song by I don't even know her.
(44:57):
Rachel Platten, if I'm not mistaken.
Rachel Platten Platten Rachel Platten And when my mom was
first diagnosed with cancer, that song came out and she was
on like the Today show or something like that.
And she told her story of she was diagnosed with cancer and
(45:18):
she got better and she's fully cancer free now.
And this is her song. And I'm getting emotional but I
need a second do. It all the time, my love.
But I would sing that song in the car by myself at the top of
my lungs, really thinking that my mom would get better too, and
(45:47):
she didn't. So I can't listen to it ever
again because even talking aboutthat song, it's too much for me.
That's the only song I can thinkof that makes me feel that way.
It's that song like you talk about, like what songs have bad
memories? That song, I cannot handle that
(46:07):
song. If it's on in a store, I walk
out. If it's on anywhere like I
cannot listen to that song. I'm super glad that song isn't
around anymore. I didn't share the same
experience with anyone who passed away from cancer the same
way that you had. But I really have always
questioned very strongly that concept of fighting cancer.
(46:34):
Yeah. There used to be a huge ad
campaign in South Africa. I don't know, people of a
certain age might remember it, where that was the theme of it,
you know, fighting cancer. And I remember even as a young
kid thinking so did all of the people who they didn't, who
passed away from this, they didn't fight.
That doesn't make any sense. They didn't.
(46:54):
Try hard. Enough, they didn't try hard
enough. And I'm like, but I kind of
don't understand that because it's the same thing as, I don't
know, having a heart attack. It's being like, oh, so you
didn't try hard enough to overcome that, did you Not like,
you know, squeeze hard enough and you to to survive this.
And, like, that's how my dad died.
And I don't think that he was flying on the ground thinking I
(47:17):
should make a bit more of an effort.
Yeah. And I think that that's really a
terrible thing that we've actually created.
I don't think that there was anythought behind that marketing
spiel, to be honest, to create that.
But yeah. Well, at least it's only one
song. Exactly.
So I think I've got a lot of good memory songs to choose
(47:37):
from. And you know, here's the thing.
I'm going to be brave, Liz, and I'm going to say smells OK,
Because you know, I feel as though like obviously even
today, I mean for by the rest, we have memories associated to
songs, right? And that's cool and I think
that's fine. But I feel as though that when I
get smells, I feel almost closerto that memory.
(48:01):
OK, I don't know why. I don't know how my brain is
wired for that to be the reality.
But when I get that smell, I have this like pretty, I don't
know, almost like sci-fi kind ofreaction to it of being in that
time and place again. And like I was saying, I think I
(48:22):
alluded to it a couple of times in this podcast of remembering,
you know, the smell of the cooking, remembering the smell
of the of the perfume and. The fire.
And the smell of the fire and the car poop and stuff like
that. But, you know, I remember some
of my favorite memories in my life were in India.
And, man, India is wild for smells.
Yeah, right, India, man. Like, you know, your olfactory
(48:45):
nerve is working overtime there.And what I loved so much about
it was the extreme nature of everything, where you'd be
walking down a road and you would smell the most delicious
food cooking in the world ever of all time kind of thing.
Like, you know, you're like a cartoon character, like floating
in the air and then like 2 meters further down the road is
(49:09):
like raw sewage and like just, you know, the worst smells that
humanity could create, They're in your nostrils too.
And, and the thing that I think for me is just that extreme
swing of the good and the bad and the memories associated to
(49:29):
them. I kind of, I kind of feel a
little bit of a rush being like being like, what?
What's the dice going to show interms of your flashback today?
You know, so it might be, it might be sewage or it might be a
delicious biryani, you know, and, and I think I'm willing to,
I'm willing to roll those dice. Because you're happy either way.
(49:50):
I think so. You know, You're, you're, you're
living, you know. But anyway, that was really our
episode for this week. And it was the concept of what
is home, where is home, who is home?
And I want to thank you all for joining us in this discussion
and this topic. And we really went through a lot
(50:10):
in it. And I really am glad that we had
this opportunity to share this with you.
We want to say thank you again to Anastasia for sending through
her thoughts and feelings. It was really good to hear and
to know that there's someone else who feels so similarly to
us. And also thank you for sharing
those special moments with us aslisteners.
(50:34):
And if you've got anything that you want to share, anything that
you want to talk about, please reach out to us.
We're on Expats Listen on Instagram, or you can e-mail us
on expats, listen@gmail.com. Reach out, make some contact
with us. We will be able to tell you
about what's happening in our next episode.
(50:54):
We can chat around it and you can tell us what you think about
whatever it is that we're going to be talking about in our next
episode. We'd love to share with you the
same way we did this week, and until then, we're sending you
all of our best goodbye.
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