April 17, 2025 • 62 mins
We explore the complex world of military toxic exposures and how veterans can navigate VA claims related to these exposures, with special focus on the PACT Act, asbestos, Agent Orange, and other harmful substances service members encounter.
• PACT Act covers toxic exposures including burn pits, Agent Orange, Camp Lejeune water contamination, and extends presumptive conditions
• Environmental hazards like silica (desert sand) can cause permanent lung damage and interstitial lung disease
• Project SHAD/112 involved secret military testing of chemical and biological agents on service members in the 1960s
• Asbestos was extensively used in military settings, particularly Navy ships, with Hull Maintenance Technicians at highest risk
• VA examiners often incorrectly deny claims because conditions aren't on presumptive lists, when direct service connection is still possible
• Military performance appraisals provide valuable documentation for proving exposure history
• "Forever chemicals" stay in the body for decades, stored in fat cells and released during metabolism
• Camp Lejeune water contamination presumptive period doesn't align with actual soil contamination data that extended into the 1990s
• VA medical opinions sometimes contain errors when raters ask leading or incorrect questions
• Veterans should consider seeking independent medical opinions for conditions related to exposures even if not on presumptive lists
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Visit J Basser's Exposed Vet Productions (Formerly Exposed Vet Radioshow) YouTube page by clicking here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J Basser (00:01):
Welcome folks to another episode of the Exposed
Vet Productions broadcast.
Today is the 17th day of April2025.
We're going to discuss a coupleof issues today dealing with
exposures.
I've got my co-host today.
It's the one and only BethanySpangenberg.
How are you doing, bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (00:21):
Great, how are you?
J Basser (00:23):
I'm doing okay.
We're in Old hillbilly today.
We took a little bit of a break.
We've been discussing the pastseveral months on different
types of DBQs and differentissues and elements that the
DBQs are written for.
We just noted one.
We've spent a whole series onthe neurological system, which
is pretty important to do, buttonight we want to get back to
(00:44):
basics on us, because we areexposed to it and we do focus
solely upon exposures.
You know, tonight we're goingto discuss the PACT Act, tara
I'm about to cover some stuff onasbestos and Bethany's in here,
because Bethany, she owns acompany called Valor for Vet and
she does a lot of IMOs, butshe's also an accredited VA
(01:05):
appeals agent and so she knowshow to put the bread and bologna
together on the same sandwich.
But I want to start off with thePAC-TAC.
Bethany, I mean personally.
I know they have a lot ofclaims issued on the PACT Act.
(01:25):
There's a lot of folks that areon the registries and all this
other stuff.
But what's the latestinformation on the PACT Act?
What does it entail?
I know it covers exposures likeburn pits and things like that,
but there's a whole lot more indetail involved with it.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:41):
Yeah, so there's actually.
The main focus is the toxicexposures.
It broadened the eligibilityfor veterans who are eligible
for care at the VA system.
It opened that window to combatveterans to 10 years, which
(02:02):
previously it was a shorter term.
It mandated that all allveterans go through a toxic
exposure screening.
So a lot of veterans receivedphone calls and asked them about
questions that may have exposedor something like to identify
things that they were exposed toin the military, such as the
(02:26):
asbestos that you had previouslymentioned.
But it also opens up about burnpits, oil fires, radiation, all
different kinds ofpossibilities, and so they're
trying to collect that data inorder to narrow down some of the
research that they're doing.
And I think the biggest, Iguess, praise that it's
(02:50):
receiving is that it reallyacknowledged that veterans are
exposed to toxins more than thetypical civilian and they're
starting to study those morereadily and recognize some of
those cancers.
They opened up some presumptivemedical conditions related to
Agent Orange and Gulf War andCamp Lejeune.
(03:14):
So the main focus was for thePACT Act was primarily the toxic
exposures.
J Basser (03:21):
All right, that's just a.
I mean then, also treat toxicexposures out of any organism
that is toxic to their exposurebasis.
The vet can file a claim for it.
Of course they have toinvestigate certain things, but
still, I've been talking to acouple of vets recently.
One guy's got some lung issuesand he was open to go.
(03:44):
I think his claim got deniedand we were discussing the issue
.
But I mean it's very windy overthere.
You know, in the desert, andwhat's the desert made out of,
you know, kind of reminds me ofSam Kennison, you know back when
he was talking about his desertmessage and his little spilling
for his jokes.
The wind blows all the time andyou get sand in the air.
(04:04):
Where does that sand go?
Up your nose, in your lungs.
And guys, sand is somethingcalled silica, right yeah, and
basically it's glass and so thatgets in your lungs.
Would that be part of likeinterstitial lung disease?
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:23):
Look who we have.
J Basser (04:26):
Well, Senor Cobb, how are you?
Ray Cobb (04:29):
Yes, I feel you got on .
J Basser (04:32):
Hey, okay, well, we're glad you could make it, ray,
but would that be consideredinterstitial lung disease,
bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:41):
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
Yes.
J Basser (04:43):
Okay, yes, it can develop into interstit.
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:44):
You're here, yes, okay, yes, it can
develop a deadness long disease.
J Basser (04:46):
Okay, Okay, so that's what you know.
We're discussing with him andhe filed his claim and got
denied.
So I told him to reach out andget a good IMO and get his
records.
So maybe he'll call the rightcompany here very soon and get
it done.
Bethanie Spangenberg (05:02):
Hey, you know, one thing that I think I
have a good appreciation for,mainly when it comes to the
clinical side of things, isbecause I have focused on
occupational medicine since 2015.
And I love occupationalmedicine.
Typically, what I see inoccupational medicine, which is
kind of different from otherfields of medicine, is that
(05:22):
typically your workers want toget better, your patients want
to get better.
They're motivated, they want toget back out earning money and
being independent and not beingkind of slowed down.
Typically your occupationalhealth patients.
They're younger, and thenthere's a lot of safety measures
that go into occupationalduties.
(05:43):
So there's a lot of safetytraining for lifting mechanisms,
a lot of prevention, becauseOSHA does not like high injuries
in the workplace and they canactually come back and find the
workplace for their OSHAinjuries.
So one thing that we did orthat we do in occupational
medicine we do periodic healthassessments just like they do in
(06:05):
occupational medicine.
We do periodic healthassessments just like they do in
the military.
We do pre-employment physicals,we make them do pulmonary
function tests, and so we cansee a lot of things that an
individual may have, like ifthey go in with COPD but they're
trying to wear a respirator.
Those two don't get alongbecause you're not getting good
oxygen in.
(06:25):
So looking and reading a lotabout the PFTs and understanding
the environment they're in, youcan understand how these
different environments and themilitary can impact their duties
as well.
When I think of respiratoryconditions and occupational
health, there's one particularpatient that I will never forget
(06:45):
because he was so young.
He was in his 20s and he workedin a pottery factory and that
kid did not wear the appropriatebreathing, he wore more like a
paper mask rather than what hewas supposed to be wearing and
his pulmonary function test wasterrible.
(07:06):
And I again just like sand,those are large, large
particulate matter and that'sgoing straight into the lungs.
The lungs don't recover likeyour skin or like other parts of
the body, and that particulatematter creates scarring in the
lungs that the body can't turnover and recover from.
(07:28):
So a lot of your lung damagethat occurs is more on a
permanent basis.
That scarring makes the tissueharder.
The oxygen doesn't want to passthrough that scar tissue.
And here this kid was at 28years old with this terrible
pulmonary function test and Ithink I lectured that kid for
like 30 minutes.
Like I know, you're young, youdon't understand.
(07:48):
You have to protect your lungs.
You have to, otherwise you needto find a new job, because he
wasn't going to make it.
I mean, this was, you know,five, six years ago, but I don't
know where he's at now, but atthe time it was very striking to
see.
J Basser (08:09):
That's good, I mean.
But you were discussing masks.
Yes, Back in the day 70s, late70s, early 80s, they give us an
opportunity and option to docertain sampling of asbestos
with a certain 3M8710 mask andat the time it was the biggest
(08:33):
and the best they had, you know,and I came out to study years
later if I could find it sayingthat the mask was about
worthless, especially forasbestos particles.
So, you know, somebody comes upand you got a claim and says,
well, you wore a mask, Well you,for asbestos particles.
Yep, you know somebody comes upand you've got a claimant and
says well, you wore a mask, Well, you didn't wear a mask, you
wore a Band-Aid Because, I mean,the big fibers won't get you
(08:55):
but the small ones will andthat's what kills you.
Bethanie Spangenberg (09:05):
And that's that glass-type concept getting
into the lungs and scarring thelungs.
And what they found aboutasbestos is that it's not just
like you know, it's just it'snot the person exposed.
It's not just the person that'sexposed that gets the damage,
because it stays on your clothesand then you take it home and
then now you're ruffling allthose fibers into the air in the
home and other people aregetting exposed to it as well.
(09:27):
So it's not just the personthat's there, it's maybe even
the laundry, people at theemployment that are dealing with
it, or people at home.
J Basser (09:37):
What happened was that back in the early days, when
they first realized that it wasGod's great gift of insulation,
they mined African ambrosite inAfrica and the workers would go
down to the mines and they wouldgo ahead and they would mine
the ore and whatever and get itout of the ground and they would
send it over to the processingfacilities.
These guys would handle it andthey would, you know, they would
(09:59):
mix it up and things like that.
These guys would get up anddone for work and they'd go home
and they'd go sit down andtheir kids would come jump on
their lap, the wives would givethem hugs and kisses and, from
what I understand, the entirefactory died in just a matter of
time.
Bethanie Spangenberg (10:13):
Yeah.
J Basser (10:14):
So it's serious True story and so you know that's
kind of like an oh crap moment.
You know what happened here.
You know well what happenedhere is this stuff is toxic,
especially after an ambrosite,because it's basically the
smallest fiber asbestos and theyuse it in a lot of insulation
and a lot of buds and thingslike that, and once it breaks up
(10:34):
we're talking manute fibersthat get in your lungs and it
gets everywhere else too.
It can get in your throat, youcan get it in your kidneys.
It's not your best friend.
Bethanie Spangenberg (10:47):
It's bad.
A lot of the toxins tend tomigrate to the kidneys and
things that are ingestedtypically migrate to the kidneys
.
Obviously, things that youinhale are going to stick to the
lungs, but things that areingested, they tend to get stuck
in the kidneys during theclearance process.
J Basser (11:05):
Well, you tell you do you know you're about as best as
you get some of the kidneysduring the clearance process.
Well, you tell you do you knowyou're about as best as you get
some of the stuff in your throatand you take a drink.
It's going to your kidneys, youknow, and you're sitting there
down down the line, but we'lltouch on that in a minute.
As far as that, I mean it's youknow, exposures.
I guess the biggest effect inthe way you contact exposures
(11:28):
has to be either through theskin or the lungs, right?
Bethanie Spangenberg (11:33):
Primarily yeah.
J Basser (11:35):
Yeah, so no.
For example, chemicals likecertain gases.
The VX or GB, it's lung or skin, and no, vx is skin.
Gb has actually more in thelungs because you know it's an
inhalant.
It's a very thin material andof course you don't want to be.
I only know two people that'sbeen exposed to it and one of
(11:59):
them is still alive, barely, buthe was exposed to VX.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:05):
Now can you explain what VX is?
J Basser (12:09):
Well, sarin gas is GB Okay, that's the code and VX is
derivative of the sarin gas.
Only difference is it's kind ofwhat do you call it?
They filter it down and whatthey do is they add another
chemical to it, like anoil-based thing.
(12:30):
They make it a lot thicker, soit's got a thicker viscosity, so
when you're exposed to it ithangs on longer and it doesn't
have the traumatic effects ofthe sarin gas, because the sarin
gas will cause you to rip youreyeballs out, and this one here
is a little bit longer lasting,slower death.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:50):
So do you want to?
J Basser (12:51):
go ahead.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:53):
Why don't you talk about Project Shad a
little bit Okay?
J Basser (12:59):
Put on my thinking cap here.
Back in the 1960s there was asecret project At the time it
was a secret and it was a Navyand Army combination project
called Project 112 Shad.
Project 112 was the Army side,project Shad was the Navy side,
(13:24):
project Chad was the Navy side.
And what they did?
They wanted to do a bunch oftesting to see how certain
biological agents, chemicalagents and other things affected
our troops.
So each test had a specificname.
I can stay with Elkhunt.
(13:45):
Elkhunt 1 started in 1964 inAlaska, just after the old big
earthquake, and so this group offolks went out into the boonies
about 30 miles from their baseand they built a little camp and
it's Elkhunt right on theGershwin River.
And so they built these littlequonset huts and they had all
(14:07):
this stuff and everybody hadtheir uniforms and they'd go out
on marches, out in the fieldand do stuff and as they were
going, planes would fly over andspray them and about once every
other week they'd take themback into town, which is 30
miles, and go through a bunch ofmedical tests.
All the records were sealed butthey had all kinds of stuff.
(14:29):
I know they had certain agentslike maybe Agent Orange, if I
can get this word right,facilius Barbie Called the skin
irritation.
Bethanie Spangenberg (14:42):
I'm not sure.
J Basser (14:44):
Yeah, and then they spread it on the land grounds,
just all kind of crazy stuff,you know.
And of course it was all beenclassified.
A lot has been declassified bynow, but there's only 5,000
people involved in the test andthe Navy had very similar issues
, but they would go by andspread the ships and the stuff,
and the Granville Hall was oneof the ships that they used for
the test and and the GranvilleHall was one of the ships that
(15:07):
they used for the test, and outof these 5,000 people there's
not very many left alive today.
Some of the medical doctors,some of the scientists involved,
they're all dead from it and soit's.
They didn't recognize that theyshould have presumptuous for
these vets but they didn't do it.
And I know two vets that wereinvolved in it.
We had one as a current gueston the show when he finally
(15:29):
passed away.
Of course, actually he went toVietnam, so he got double whammy
the blue water, you know.
I mean these guys got bluewater, but there's a Project 112
website you can look at.
You can also follow a guy namedGerald Cook.
Gerald's got a lot of healthissues right now, but he's still
(15:51):
with us and he's my co-host fora long long time on the show
and we did a lot of stufftogether.
So he was the guy at FortGreeley, project 112.
Bethanie Spangenberg (16:04):
That's actually the first time I ever
heard of that was from you andtalking with Gerald, and so when
you started to talk about it alittle bit, I'm like, well, you
know, tell everybody else aboutit, because that was a while ago
that we talked about it.
It is.
J Basser (16:18):
And we've done actually shows on it with people
and things like that.
And of course now it took him along time.
He first filed his claim in2002 and it took him forever to
get to where he's at now.
It was one now after another,kind of like the early Agent
(16:42):
Orange claims right Ray, RightRight, it's bad stuff.
Go ahead, Beth Right.
Bethanie Spangenberg (16:48):
Talking a little bit about Agent Orange.
You know the challenge with alot of these chemicals or at
least the older chemicals isthat they're not actively doing
studies on the chemicals.
They have to look at what hashappened in the past or what
data do we have from thoseexposed to the chemical.
(17:11):
So they're not actively testingthese chemicals in the lab to
try to see if they cause thistype of cancer, that type of
cancer or what happens.
So when you try to look forresearch and data that's more
recent related to Agent Orange,it's basically a retrospective
study where they've collectedthe old data and now they're
(17:32):
trying to make something of it.
And so for a veteran that'strying to fight a toxic exposure
claim like Agent Orange, ifthey're trying to say, well,
their cancer is related to AgentOrange exposure in the past,
they may find challenges findingnew literature to support their
(17:54):
claim.
The one thing I want to mention, for not only Agent Orange but
any of these toxic exposures,because majority of these toxic
exposures are forever chemicals.
They are what they calllipophilic.
They love the fat in our bodies, so they stay there forever and
(18:16):
as we sweat and as we loseweight or metabolize those fat
cells or energy, those chemicalscome back out into our
bloodstream and so, even thoughit's not on a presumptive, if
you are fighting a claim, youmay have to get a private
medical opinion, because whathas to happen is you need a
(18:40):
medical person to look at thatveteran's history, that
veteran's exposure, and look atthe data and what we know about
the chemicals to see if it is atleast as likely as not related
to the exposure.
So, yes, they have thesepresumptives, yes, there is
limited data on these, but eachveteran has to be looked at
(19:03):
individually.
You may have a veteran that hasabsolutely no risk factors but
for their exposure to AgentOrange and they've developed
some type of cancer.
And so, as a medical expert,what we do is we really look at
the veteran's history,understanding their medical
conditions and see where theAgent Orange or the toxic
(19:25):
exposures may have impacted ordeveloped into a cancer.
The other thing I want tomention from the medical expert
side of things is a lot of thesechemicals are what they Any
endocrine system is verysusceptible to those chemicals
(19:53):
and how they may be changed.
The other thing is and this iswhere the cancer comes in is
that these chemicals change theway the body, the way the cells
function.
It mutates the DNA and disruptsthe communication on how
(20:16):
they're supposed to turn over,and so with the mutation of the
gene, that's where the cancersdevelop.
So these chemicals, even 30years ago, have affected the DNA
in the cell and how the celldevelops, and then 30 years
later you have some type ofcancer Again.
This is something thatcase-by-case basis needs to be
(20:39):
looked at for the veterans whenit comes to service connection,
and don't just sit for apresumptive, don't just say,
well, it's not on thepresumptive, it's probably not
related, and move on.
You know, sit down, have adiscussion with your surrounding
veterans, with your spouse,with your family, and talk about
it and see, you know, wherethese exposures or other, even
(21:02):
your occupational work, may havecontributed to the development
of your disease saying thatthat's a great point, because
there is a doctor at VanderbiltUniversity and I forget what her
name is.
Ray Cobb (21:19):
She's written two books already about the agent
orange exposure and the sideeffects and things that are not
on the assumption list and shewas in a conversation recently.
She made the point that some ofthe studies to which the
military has done in othergroups or organizations do not
(21:43):
concentrate on veterans thatwere directly exposed in Vietnam
or any other location.
But they have gone to theplants and where it was produced
and they have done someresearch there and they're
trying to say that's legitimate.
But what they're doing they'reinterviewing people up in the
(22:04):
front office and and up in thefront part of the plant that was
never around it, that never hadanything to do with it, never
touched it or came anywheregetting close, and she's got a
couple of books out that mightbe really worth learning.
But going back to your point,that was one of the things she
said.
It was that there was a lot ofthings that she believes and
(22:27):
she's been able to research atVanderbilt of other problems
that are not on the assumptionlist created by Agent Orange
That'd be a good guess.
J Basser (22:38):
Let me give you a little history on that.
Ray Cobb (22:40):
If we could convince you to come on.
J Basser (22:41):
Yeah Well, just have to make get James on too,
because he'd have to.
Maybe he can coax her intocoming on, you know, because she
kind of likes James.
But Agent Orange, bethany, whenNEMA first came out and it
(23:03):
first was a very hot topic andthe presumptives and everything
else, because NEMA took all thisstuff and made it into the law,
the court case, the researchthat they had on Agent Orange
was basically what themanufacturer had set MSDS and
things like that for thechemical.
Any field research reallywasn't done in the US but it was
(23:25):
mostly done in Australia.
So they had a lot of Australianinformation and things like
that they had to use.
But there was really too muchin the US and things like that
they had to use.
But there was really too muchin the US.
And we're talking maybe what 80s, 70s, 80s when it started
blowing up, you know thatstarted popping diabetes and all
kinds of crap.
What's going on with this stuff, you know?
(23:46):
So that's back when the VA hadwrite you a letter.
Your claim was notwell-grounded.
Hit the road, jack, you know.
You ever seen one of them,bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (23:55):
Seen a lot of them.
Yeah, and that's where theveterans get frustrated,
especially Vietnam veterans.
It's like it was terrible whenwe were deployed, it was
terrible when we came home andnow I'm just making another
fight.
Most people they don't want todeal with it and they just move
on and live life without everthinking about their illnesses
(24:24):
because of their time in serviceaccept the fact that they may
be entitled to something andthat if you have somebody that
can guide you through theprocess and take the stress off,
then you can be successful.
(24:45):
But, like I said, most of themjust put their heads down and
just truck forward and theydon't want to deal with the
government anymore.
J Basser (24:51):
Okay, that's a good point.
I want to tell vets a reallyimportant point Now.
I know Ray's situation with hisAgent Orange claim.
You know Ray was exposed toAgent Orange and he was the
second veteran in the world, thecountry, to get his service
text for Agent Orange exposureOutside of Vietnam.
He was stationed here.
(25:11):
He was exposed to FortMcClellan, alabama, outside of
Vietnam.
He was stationed here.
He was exposed in Fort McLeod,alabama.
Guys, if you're going to file aclaim and say you're PACT Act
limited to where you're limitedto the sandbox okay, you know,
to the Middle East and thingslike that, but you were exposed
to the same type of stuff here.
You know you can't use thepresumptive statute in order to
(25:33):
file your claim but you can andyou should, if you want to file
a claim, use a directservice-connected lane to file
that claim.
Ray Cobb (25:46):
You know it'd be a little bit longer process but
you'd still get her done Welland also the important part
about that is veterans you needto keep in mind when you file a
direct exposure or a directaccident.
You got to prove who, what,when, where, why and how and
(26:09):
that's got to be documented andthe best way.
I mean, even in my case I hadeyewitnesses, I had management,
I happened to be actually itwasn't where I knew I was
exposed, but I was actually inthe chemical training center
(26:29):
building.
I was on the fourth floor andthe lab was on the second floor
and our drains were shared byeach other.
So if something got washed downthe drain it came from there
right through our photo labright on out into the pipes.
And, with that being said, themost important thing in my case
(26:52):
and I was very fortunate isphotographs.
You know it's was veryfortunate is photographs.
You know it's hard to argueagainst a photograph.
So if there's something thathappened and there was a
photograph made and it mighthave been made just with no
intent to do anything with it,sometimes you can find those
through the Library of Congress.
(27:12):
I did.
I was able to find not only minebut some photographs that a
previous photographer had madeof the guys actually spraying
the Agent Orange, and I thinkthat you know it's hard to argue
with a photograph of the guystanding there with three tanks
on his back and a little spraygun pointed down at the ground.
(27:34):
I mean, yeah, you can't tell ifit's Agent Orange or what.
But remember, what you have toprove is it's likely, it's not.
So if you're in that area andyou got it as likely as not and
you got photographs to go alongwith it, then you know you're
ready to go.
But that's a part of buildingthe case and coming up with what
(27:56):
you need.
J Basser (28:00):
Big claims issues.
Say, for example, Bethany,you're a former C&P examiner,
right?
Okay, yes, For example, youhave a guy that has a
presumptive condition based onmaybe it could be Agent Orange,
it could be anything, and saythey send them to you for a C&P
exam, okay, Well, as soon as yousee the C&P exam, you realize
(28:21):
this guy's got the wronginformation because they're
asking for a nexus as to how hewas exposed to Agent Orange, you
know.
And so if it's a presumptivecondition and you see that it's
kind of weird because I mean,basically, if he's already got a
presumptive issue, you shouldbe able to do the CMP based on
(28:42):
it and try to get a level ofseverity right.
So that's for the issue.
Bethanie Spangenberg (28:45):
Yes.
J Basser (28:47):
But you wouldn't have to be worrying about providing
nexus to whether he was exposedor not.
Is that correct, correct, okay,what I've seen is I've seen it
both ends of the spectrum.
Bethanie Spangenberg (28:58):
Yeah, I have seen it as well.
And while we're on presumptivesand medical opinions, I want to
talk a little bit about thepatterns that I do see when it
comes to VA medical opinionsopinions.
(29:20):
The rater may ask about acondition being related to a
toxic exposure and for somereason the C&P examiner says in
their opinion well, it's not onthe presumptive list, therefore
it's not service related.
That is not correct.
Most of the times in the ratingdecision they will outline the
reasoning, they will copy andpaste the reasoning why you got
a negative opinion.
So that medical examiner'snegative opinion is typically in
(29:42):
the rating decision and youwill see in there that the
medical examiner opined that theclaimed condition is not
presumptive of Agent Orangeexposure and that is not the way
it's supposed to be done.
They are not asking the medicalexaminer to identify whether or
(30:03):
not it's a presumptive.
They are wanting you to look atthese studies.
They're wanting the medicalexaminer to look at what the
research has shown.
What does the EPA say?
What do these other chemicalresearch studies say in
relationship to the chemical andthe claim condition?
(30:23):
Additionally, they want thatexaminer to look at that
individual veteran, look attheir history and understand
where the claim condition may becoming from.
So I see that error a lot andmore recently with the Terra,
what I'm seeing and I stilldon't understand this and I'm
(30:44):
starting to think it'sintentional, but they will ask
whether or not a condition isrelated to a toxic exposure,
even though that is not the waythe veteran claimed it.
So, for example, I actuallypulled up the file right here
because I want to remember totalk about it there was a claim
(31:06):
for sleep apnea and they claimedthat the condition was
secondary to their respiratoryissue and the rater in this case
the rater proposed the questionor submitted the question
incorrectly to the examiner.
So the rater in this one saysis the veteran's sleep apnea
(31:29):
secondary to a toxic exposurerelated activity?
And it's like, no, that's nothow the veteran claimed it, they
mentioned nothing about a toxicexposure in their statement.
And the examiner because theystick to what is in the request
from the rater they will go onand provide an opinion saying no
(31:51):
, this is not related tochemicals, this is an anatomical
disease, or they'll go on totalk about the obstruction of
obstructive sleep apnea, and sothose opinions we're seeing a
lot of those come to us and say,hey, I need a medical opinion.
I got denied Again.
(32:12):
That's outlined in the ratingdecision.
They'll copy and paste it andyou look at those ratings and
you're like, oh my gosh, can wejust put this back as like a
higher level review?
Can somebody please just lookat this and say this was
proposed wrong by the rater?
Can we send it back for anappropriate opinion?
But I think the reason I thinkthat's intentional is because
(32:33):
it's another way for costcontrol.
Deny, deny, deny Money goesdown.
We're not pushing money out andthen it makes a veteran fight
again and it's the hamster wheelof nonsense.
J Basser (32:45):
It's a bus.
It goes around in a circle.
It's like a racetrack.
One person gets off, one persongets on.
The only thing left is the ICmoney for the spouse, so it's
not new money.
Ray Cobb (32:59):
I've had to show a lot around here too, that the
veterans get aggravated andactually don't do it, you know.
J Basser (33:07):
The question she was talking about.
Guys, when the writer talks tothe examiner and starts setting
little notes in there saying,you know, here's what I think
you know, or here's a questionyou know, is this guy's sleep
apnea secondary to a chemicalexposure and exposure issue
right?
Basically, if you file theclaim based on terror, it
(33:30):
shouldn't be there.
It should not be there, itshould be somewhere else.
And they've got our officeregional office that handles
terror.
They sent one of my claims lastyear to that area the one I
just won actually and so we canmove in Leading questions and
(33:52):
every C&P exam I've ever seengot copies of and I've had a
bunch of them.
The majority of them do haveleading questions because
they've got some really sharpindividuals inside the ROs.
One of the KSAs to be hired inthe regional office is the
creative writing skills.
Bethanie Spangenberg (34:09):
Yes.
J Basser (34:13):
KSA is called a knowledge, skill and ability.
So yeah, but it is what it is.
I mean you know exposures arebad.
You know you expose a lot ofdifferent things.
I mean you know you've gotstuff in the Middle East, even
stuff.
Bethanie Spangenberg (34:28):
Not.
J Basser (34:29):
In the war zone.
For example, the military is adangerous place, especially the
US Navy, especially the US Navy,because the US Navy has these
very, very large ships.
They have tenders, they haveships that have they're floating
cities.
They have machine shops, theyhave they're welders, they have
(34:50):
argon gas bottles, they havefabricators Everything there
available to mankind.
Accidents are going to happenin an industrial society,
regardless of what you say, it'sgoing to happen.
It's a dangerous place,especially on the aircraft
carrier and the deck of theaircraft carrier.
You know people get killed inthat job so.
And armies got their own, youknow they've got their own
(35:13):
cities too.
So I mean you don't have to bea war vet to get hurt or maimed
or whatever.
And they've got exposure issuestoo.
You've got a lot of cleaningsolvents.
You've got things like that.
You've got red lead, you've gotpaints.
You've got aircraft carrierdecking silica with those jet
(35:33):
engines blasting off.
You know it takes that stuff upand kicks it in the air.
They don't have it now.
You used to have the old jetguns when you go get your
vaccinations.
The only thing that was was ahepatitis passing on machine
right there.
Bethanie Spangenberg (35:49):
I will tell you that we have done a lot
of hep C and jet injector cases, because there is a study out
of California that talks aboutthe hepatitis outbreak
associated with the guninjectors and during that time,
when they were using them, theydidn't even have understanding
(36:12):
of hepatitis B virus fully, andit wasn't until the nineties
that they really understood whathappened.
And so absolutely that's justbloodborne pathogen for you and
for you and for you.
Everybody gets a bloodbornepathogen.
J Basser (36:29):
Well, it's true.
It is true, you know.
I mean, I guess they got a curefor it.
Ray Cobb (36:34):
now, I didn't like those cure for it now Puts an
remission on it.
They didn't like those guns.
Bethanie Spangenberg (36:36):
Hair remission.
Ray Cobb (36:38):
Yeah.
J Basser (36:40):
They did.
They told my grandpa back in1958 when they cut him off 100%.
He had tuberculosis.
Mr Huff, you're cured.
They cured him.
My mother grew up outside ofthose TB hospitals they had back
in the day.
Bethanie Spangenberg (36:56):
Yeah.
J Basser (36:57):
Yeah, she moved around very.
Her uncle Bob moved around alot to these different hospitals
because it's tuberculosis, wow,and I didn't know they'd cut
him off.
Of course I wasn't involved toomuch and finally, but I just
talked to him one day and I saidyou gotta be kidding me.
They can't cut you off.
There's no cure for hepatitisor, I'm sorry, no cure for
(37:17):
tuberculosis.
He said what do you mean?
He told me I was cured.
So I got him the phone, made acouple of phone calls and got a
couple of guys involved and gotan appeal going and next thing,
you know, he got one of thelargest checks that he's ever
issued.
He died two days later.
Bethanie Spangenberg (37:45):
He's hanging on for something he was.
J Basser (37:48):
For instance so good man.
Bethanie Spangenberg (37:53):
Now you talked about stateside exposures
and we talked a little bitabout the Agent Orange being
stateside.
I want to talk or mention thecontaminated water exposures and
Camp Lejeune and the one thingthat, again, just because the
(38:13):
presumptions are not there doesnot mean that your condition was
not the result of an exposureto the contaminated water.
You should definitely at leastseek some type of review.
We offer record reviews.
Have a medical expert, look andsee is there a possibility that
it could be related and see, isthere a possibility that it
(38:37):
could be related.
The data and the presumptiveperiods for Camp Lejeune are
what bothers me the most aboutthat.
Presumptive because there's apresumptive period for the
contaminated water exposure,like if you were there for a
certain time to a certain time Ihave it here in front of me but
I think it was like 87 maybe.
But if you look at the data,the data shows that the soil was
(38:58):
still contaminated in the early90s.
So why they cut thatpresumptive period off in the
1980s is mind-blowing to me,because the soil data is still
showing or still showed that itwas elevated into the 90s.
And so even if you are a CampLejeune veteran that served
(39:18):
there after the presumptiveperiod and you develop something
that you might think is theresult of the contaminated water
exposure.
Seek the expertise of a medicalopinion or a medical expert in
this area.
J Basser (39:33):
There should be environmental impact studies
based on that, because ifsomething's still hot, they've
got to keep testing.
Yeah, and you know, becauseit's got to be clear and I know
a couple of environmentalscientists that actually work on
stuff like that, you know, andif it's still involved, it's
still in the groundwater, youknow things like that.
Yeah, you can get them, but it'sstill they have to clear it.
(39:57):
You know it's kind of like allhands all clear so, but they
know this is a smoking gun forthe people filing claims.
So they got presumptive issues.
However, if you don't have apresumptive issue in a situation
that's still there, you getthat evidence that was still
there.
You file a directservice-connected claim.
You look to get that evidencethat was still there.
You file a direct service toclaim.
You look to get that evidenceto claim.
You can't lose, you're going towin, because they can't say, oh
(40:18):
, it's gone now.
It's like Ray, you never usedAgent Orange, you were never
exposed to Agent Orange.
We did not use Agent Orangeinside the continental US.
How many times have you heardthat one buddy?
Ray Cobb (40:32):
Oh, I have no idea.
I mean, I have probably 10letters telling me that back
from you know the claimsdivision and you know, Agent
Orange is known to stay in thesoil.
It's been up to 100 years.
It's supposed to stay in thesoil 100 years and you're right,
(40:52):
it's not going to go away.
And you know there's somedocumentation.
You have to do some legwork,guys, and I know, like if you're
my age, I mean all this stuffthat we're doing here tonight
even is all new to me.
And when you get into this typeof thing you're going to find
out in order to get yourresearch done.
You know we're going to have toturn to a younger person
(41:15):
whether or not it's a grandsonor granddaughter or someone of
that age group in their 20s tohelp.
We've got a best thing, youknow, here you're looking at.
Yeah, the best place to go tofind any of those contaminations
if you can get them to releaseit is.
(41:37):
I can tell you two examples ofthis.
One is to go to the Corps ofEngineers because they have to
keep all these records.
Now, as soon as the Corps ofEngineers comes back and tells
you we cannot release those,that's because they're
classified.
Now go to your congressman andask for copies.
(41:58):
Now they may send you a copy.
One case I did this with theysent the guy a copy of 27 pages
of an area that he said he wasexposed and they had blackened
out 70% of it.
Just took a line and blackenedit out and said it was because
(42:19):
of security.
So, what we did was sit down andwrote a letter and said well,
you know the fact that youblackened it out, the fact that
it was national security and thefact that this did happen in
1965, 66 and 67, when he said hewas at that location, it's as
(42:44):
likely as not that the chemicalAgent Orange was used, meaning
that there's a 51% chance or a50% chance and that 50-50 goes
in favor of the veteran.
But once we turned that letterin, we had an answer in three
(43:04):
weeks and he was approved at100%.
But if we had not had thatdocumentation which our
congressman got got, that hadbeen blackened out, we would
have never won the case.
I mean he would have, he wouldhave passed away two years later
, his wife would not haveanything and you know it would
have all been a lost cause.
(43:27):
But he didn't want to go to thecongressman.
He told me I never will forgetthis.
He said my congressman is toobusy to help me.
I said that's his job, you know.
Hopefully he's not, and sureenough he wasn't.
Now I know he didn't do it.
(43:48):
I know he got his aide to goover and get the records pulled
and make copies and all that.
And yeah, it took 60 days toget them but it meant a home run
.
So they're out there.
Folks, you just got to use alittle bit of knowledge and
(44:08):
thinking who cleaned it up?
There's actually.
You know you talked aboutearlier about the United States
using it and the differentchemicals that are used in the
United States.
I have a copy and I know youhave it too.
I think, john, you still haveit that back in 1985 or 86, they
(44:31):
gathered all these individualsfrom these military bases here
in the United States and sentthem down to the Air Force
Academy there in Colorado andthey had a week no, I had a
two-week long training on how toclean up these toxic exposures
(44:55):
that were left behind on thebase, and Camp Lejeune was one
that was named Fort McAleph,alabama, fort Gordon, georgia,
but they sent individuals from120 bases from the continental
United States to attend thattwo-week seminar on how to clean
up these toxic chemicals.
(45:16):
But they didn't use them.
Why did they send them there tolearn how to clean them up?
J Basser (45:24):
Well, I had back then, I think.
Ray Cobb (45:26):
I was in the.
J Basser (45:27):
Navy, but I was working for the Army, part of
the Army, age seven, and theyhad an issue.
We had guys gone there and wehad guys actually went down to
Addison, alabama, to put roadbars on jeeps for a year.
But that was the start of BRAC.
We knew it was coming along.
By Three years later BRAC wouldshow us that we had that's the
(45:47):
Base Red Line McClosureCommitment.
They started closing bases andthings like that.
It's very similar to what'sgoing on now.
They closed a bunch of bases,combined a bunch of bases and
they got rid of a whole lot ofpeople.
A lot of people don't likeworking for the government, get
caught in production.
Of course, of course I've beeninvolved in two of them.
I couldn't win for losing.
(46:08):
That's when I started to gointo automobile business.
Bethanie Spangenberg (46:18):
Before we get too far into.
I think we have like 15 minutesleft or maybe less than that
but.
I just want I have a whole listof all the toxic exposures that
are kind of relevant to themilitary.
So if you're a veteran that'slistening and you've heard us
this far, I just want to kind ofput these things out here,
about things that you need tothink about.
Was I exposed to these?
So obviously we talked aboutagent orange, I think.
(46:42):
We mentioned burden burn pitsand airborne hazards.
We talked about the sand.
You know I've had veterans talkto me about waking up with ash
on their face or particles ontheir face.
We didn't talk about depleteduranium, but that is an exposure
, gulf War, even there's somestateside depleted uranium
(47:07):
exposures.
Depleted uranium exposures.
We talked about the nerveagents like Shad Project, shad
Project 112, chemical warfareagents, mustard gas, the sarin,
(47:29):
as being a toxic warfare, toxicchemical Radiation exposure,
atomic radiation, nuclear, andthen contaminated water.
We talked about asbestosexposure, which we talked a
little bit about, but that's we.
I don't know if we reallyemphasized, you know, the ships
and it being on, you knoweverywhere, okay, and then?
(47:55):
the last one is the firefightingfoams and the PFAS.
Those are different exposures.
I think that's all of them.
Oh, oil, well fires.
Mm-hmm, that's bad why don'tyou tell us about asbestos?
J Basser (48:19):
I'll talk to Charlie asbestos.
The Navy has a rating back inthe day called a whole
maintenance technician.
They still have the same ratingand these guys are the ones
that actually are the keepers ofthe ship.
They weld.
If you get a hold of the ship,you get hit by a bomb.
They're the welders, they'rethe firefighters, they're the
(48:42):
ones that actually they run theequipment, all the damage
lockers, all the welding shops,all the insulation, everything.
There's largely a lot of ships,especially tenders and things
like that, because they takecare of not only tenders and
ships, they take care of theirbabies, the submarines, the
destroyers or whatever thatvessel is used from the early 20
(49:10):
me all the way up to probably,I think, the if I'm not mistaken
, I think the 688 classsubmarine was the first
basically asbestos-free, and sothat's the most
asbestos-on-the-submarine.
Anything before then hadasbestos all over the place.
I mean, these ships had them insteam pipes, engine rooms,
(49:30):
engine compartments, even hadthem in the flooring in between
the engine room and the maindecks because it was very hot
down there.
There's a lot of asbestos-typefumes.
There's chrysothil, amesitedifferent types for different
purposes.
What happens is, after a periodof time, the insulation, the
(49:51):
lagging they call it lagging,gets crippled or just gets dingy
or gets damaged by movingmachinery around and sometimes
you have to replace the pipingand you know you have to remove
the asbestos.
My job basically started with Iwas more of a project manager
for some of this stuff.
My job basically started with Iwas more of a project manager
(50:12):
for some of the stuff.
I would get the sample and wesent it over to the
Environmental PreventiveMedicine Unit.
We'd sample it and we'd test itand see what type it was.
Then we'd set up a containmentand rip it out and they'd go
ahead and they'd redo the pipesand reweld them and new pipes
and things like that and theywould re-insulate it.
You know Mostly done onsubmarines.
That was our big job, our area.
(50:34):
You know we were a repairdepartment and the old
submarines are ate up with it.
You know because a lot of steampipes Biggest issue we had
there was inside the RCs andreactors.
You can touch any radiationexposure.
You know that's kind of funny.
You know that was the onlybusiness worker in 1985 that was
(50:59):
a certified radiation workerand we had an incident on board
one of the subs where we had toremove a bunch of business
outside the inner city and Ijust project managed a bunch of
shipyard guys doing it, but westill got it done.
Kind of a nice little letterfor it, you know.
Ray Cobb (51:17):
John, you helped me with a gentleman with asbestos
exposure when you were tellingus and Bethany, you may want to
comment this we sent him to getan x-ray of his lungs and how it
showed up in the x-ray withdifferent dyes and things.
But in his case which happened alot with the Air Force and the
(51:38):
Army, his old barracks and oldbases that were built during
World War II and some in WorldWar I back in the late 50s and
early 60s, both they came in andthey really redid them.
They tore out all of thesheetrock, the insulation, put
(51:58):
them up and redid them.
What I'm thinking of right nowis here close to me, northern
Field Airfield.
At one time when Arle Air ForceBase was being developed.
The Air Force used that forabout four or five years while
developing and building oral airforce base on what used to be
(52:18):
uh count forest and um, he wasthat's where he was exposed was
down in florida redecoratingsome of these military complexes
, some of these barracks.
But he won his case just, oh, Ithink, about three months ago.
Bethanie Spangenberg (52:39):
Wow, just three months ago.
J Basser (52:44):
Back in the yeah.
Back in the 70s Back in the 70sand 60s.
Ray Cobb (52:52):
It took five years to do it there was no asbestos
abatement.
It took five years to do it,and he finally had to get
somebody to help him out ofCalifornia it's some things in
life.
J Basser (53:08):
You got an older house , popcorn, siblings and things
like that.
It's probably got asbestos init.
Bethanie Spangenberg (53:15):
Hospitals have a lot of it.
J Basser (53:16):
But you know, especially in the colder areas
where they've got a lot of steampipes and steam you know a lot
of steam heat sources and thingslike that You've got a lot of
it.
I don't know if the buildingindustry has ate up with it,
because every pair of brakesmade before 2000 ate up with
asbestos Mechanics.
They're exposed to it.
(53:37):
But mostly it's in airplanes.
Especially the ones in Vietnamhad asbestos in them, but mostly
Navy ships.
You know.
Barracks had them too, you know.
But I had a lot of guys onboard the Navy that were Mr GQ.
They had a nice uniform andthey ironed their shirts and
things like that and they walkedaround like they were something
special.
They just had a clipboard andwalked around a little busy all
day.
They didn't do too much Anyhow.
(53:59):
They would get up in themorning and they'd take their
little metal wire hangers outand they had a steam pipe above
their bunk.
They'd take their stuff andthey'd poke the steam with the
tip of that coat hanger intothat insulation.
Every time they pulled it outthey exposed the whole
department.
Yeah, I had some knock-downdrag outs on people like that.
(54:20):
They got rolled up a coupletimes for insubordination I did,
but when we went to see the oldman we took care of business.
Yeah.
So you know I'm kind of.
You know I don't.
I didn't play too many gameswhile I kept there, I just did a
job and tried to go home when Icould, so, but as best as some
(54:44):
radiation.
Now there's not a lot ofveterans left alive, if any,
that were a part of theatmospheric testing.
You know, abel Baker, the onein Arizona, bikini Atoll, there
might be a few, a lot of guysafter the first test, because
the guy actually missed thetarget.
You know, kind of off-way,centered a little bit, landed,
(55:06):
supposed to land on top ofBattleship Pennsylvania but
landed about I don't landed,about a mile and a half away or
something else.
So these guys went back onboard the ships to clean them up
.
You remember that story.
It's a true story.
These guys were in troubleBecause them things were hot.
See, radiation is energy emittedfrom an unstable atom or
(55:28):
isotope.
That's radiation.
It is a source of energy Likean x-ray, gamma radiation.
It goes right through you.
There's a thing calledcontamination and people don't
understand the difference.
Contamination is finally thedivided particles of that energy
(55:51):
in an unwanted area or location.
That's the difference betweenradiation and contamination.
And the initial blast radiatedthe ships.
The fallout landed on the ships.
That was the contamination part.
So you're not washing radiationoff because it goes right
through you, but thecontamination is what you got to
wash off and clean up.
Now, sub-breeze, they don'treally have contamination,
(56:19):
they've just got.
You know it's a direct source.
Of course I wouldn't leaveanything inside the rack
apartment anyways on a subbecause they've got to take them
apart when they get rid of thesub and bury them anyways.
Right, remember we've got fourbarackers too.
Fort Greeley had one and itleaked.
Bethanie Spangenberg (56:46):
And we've talked about that quite a bit
actually.
Yeah, and we've talked aboutthat quite a bit actually.
J Basser (56:53):
Yeah yeah, if you need any advice on asbestos coins,
send an email to exposedbed atgmailcom and I can give you some
pointers on it.
I've got the documentations, mycertifications and everything.
Bethanie Spangenberg (57:18):
so I might need to make a resume, you know
, I think, of all the exposuresI think the firefighters may
have the worst ones only becauseI mean they had the asbestos,
any type of fire or smoke, andthen the chemicals that they use
to put out the fires.
Ray Cobb (57:41):
I've actually seen our local fire department with
young people with cancers.
J Basser (57:45):
Well, yeah, that's another one of God's great gifts
.
Hey, this does smothers.
We got a fuel fire.
This smothers it, let's put iton it.
Well, they did.
Yeah, that's A-triple-F theycall it.
It comes in a big graycontainer.
You stick a hose in it, stickthe applicator and it mixes with
the water and poof.
You got the prettiest whitefoam there was and I spray so
(58:07):
much that stuff is unbelievable.
So I spray so much that stuffis unbelievable.
So, as a matter of fact, Itaught at the Reserve Center for
three years up here and we usea lot of it, as well as the
cheap firefighter structure forthe Reserves, this part of
Kentucky.
Yeah, I got letters ofappreciation for that one too,
(58:27):
you know.
So If you file the lawsuit or ifyou join the class action on
the AFFF and you win, from whatI understand I don't think the
VA offsets that lawsuit.
A lot of times they do.
You can look on the list, Likelook at this VA's MOS per list
(58:55):
per asbestos.
You can look at that.
It's on the VA's website, vagovor VA whatever.
You can look it up.
And you can look at all of themilitary's occupational codes,
like you know whole techniciansor whatever, and it tells the
probability of his best exposure.
Okay, and this it should be thehighest one.
(59:17):
You know, because basically youknow it's the guys are doing
the insulators, things like thatare pretty high, really high
level Starts doing that, youknow.
And there's other areas toothat are exposed, you know.
You know, and there's otherareas too that are exposed, you
know.
But you know, you look at theprobability and then you put it
away.
But something interesting ifyou work with asbestos and they
(59:41):
say you didn't find yourperformance appraisals you had
where you're in the military andlook on the back page, It'll
tell you exactly what you did.
Bethanie Spangenberg (59:49):
I'm glad you brought that up because we
hadn't mentioned that yet, butyou're right.
J Basser (59:55):
Yeah, I mean, it's a goldmine.
Information and people like metrying to tell you where to go
or who to put you know who todecide.
I think would work better withyour claim or whatever.
I'm not going to work yourclaim before you because I don't
do that.
You know, I'm a road map.
Okay, Go left, go right.
I could get an accreditationand start hammering claims, but
(01:00:19):
I'm getting old, but that's whatwe do.
Ray Cobb (01:00:26):
Are you young workers, snipers?
J Basser (01:00:29):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but it so you know.
But it is what it is.
I mean you know it's VA in anutshell, because you know, I
mean it says you change the nameof the VA to the DVA, the
Denied Venture Administration.
It's a lot.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:00:51):
Well, we've got.
We're about out of timeactually, so if anybody have any
final comments, anything theywant to say, no thanks for doing
this, beth.
J Basser (01:01:05):
We do appreciate it.
We have a new format.
I'm going to watch it onYouTube after a while and see
how it does.
You guys go to Jay Bassler'sExpose that Productions on
YouTube and you can watch allthese shows and you can watch
all the latest shows we've doneand you see a lot of interesting
people and it'll be a goodthing.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:01:26):
I'm excited.
Hopefully this is smooth.
J Basser (01:01:30):
It should be okay, and We'll get better at it once we
get signed out.
You're not going to jump intoit and hit home runs first.
You've got to take some pitchesfirst right.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:01:40):
Hey, I'm looking for that home run.
Sign us off, John.
J Basser (01:01:48):
All right, that's it.
It folks, we do appreciate youwatching.
On behalf of Bethany and Ray.
This is John from Expose WebProductions.
We'll be signing off for nowgood night guys.
Welcome folks to another episode of the Exposed
Vet Productions broadcast.
Today is the 17th day of April2025.
We're going to discuss a coupleof issues today dealing with
exposures.
I've got my co-host today.
It's the one and only BethanySpangenberg.
How are you doing, bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (00:21):
Great, how are you?
J Basser (00:23):
I'm doing okay.
We're in Old hillbilly today.
We took a little bit of a break.
We've been discussing the pastseveral months on different
types of DBQs and differentissues and elements that the
DBQs are written for.
We just noted one.
We've spent a whole series onthe neurological system, which
is pretty important to do, buttonight we want to get back to
(00:44):
basics on us, because we areexposed to it and we do focus
solely upon exposures.
You know, tonight we're goingto discuss the PACT Act, tara
I'm about to cover some stuff onasbestos and Bethany's in here,
because Bethany, she owns acompany called Valor for Vet and
she does a lot of IMOs, butshe's also an accredited VA
(01:05):
appeals agent and so she knowshow to put the bread and bologna
together on the same sandwich.
But I want to start off with thePAC-TAC.
Bethany, I mean personally.
I know they have a lot ofclaims issued on the PACT Act.
(01:25):
There's a lot of folks that areon the registries and all this
other stuff.
But what's the latestinformation on the PACT Act?
What does it entail?
I know it covers exposures likeburn pits and things like that,
but there's a whole lot more indetail involved with it.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:41):
Yeah, so there's actually.
The main focus is the toxicexposures.
It broadened the eligibilityfor veterans who are eligible
for care at the VA system.
It opened that window to combatveterans to 10 years, which
(02:02):
previously it was a shorter term.
It mandated that all allveterans go through a toxic
exposure screening.
So a lot of veterans receivedphone calls and asked them about
questions that may have exposedor something like to identify
things that they were exposed toin the military, such as the
(02:26):
asbestos that you had previouslymentioned.
But it also opens up about burnpits, oil fires, radiation, all
different kinds ofpossibilities, and so they're
trying to collect that data inorder to narrow down some of the
research that they're doing.
And I think the biggest, Iguess, praise that it's
(02:50):
receiving is that it reallyacknowledged that veterans are
exposed to toxins more than thetypical civilian and they're
starting to study those morereadily and recognize some of
those cancers.
They opened up some presumptivemedical conditions related to
Agent Orange and Gulf War andCamp Lejeune.
(03:14):
So the main focus was for thePACT Act was primarily the toxic
exposures.
J Basser (03:21):
All right, that's just a.
I mean then, also treat toxicexposures out of any organism
that is toxic to their exposurebasis.
The vet can file a claim for it.
Of course they have toinvestigate certain things, but
still, I've been talking to acouple of vets recently.
One guy's got some lung issuesand he was open to go.
(03:44):
I think his claim got deniedand we were discussing the issue
.
But I mean it's very windy overthere.
You know, in the desert, andwhat's the desert made out of,
you know, kind of reminds me ofSam Kennison, you know back when
he was talking about his desertmessage and his little spilling
for his jokes.
The wind blows all the time andyou get sand in the air.
(04:04):
Where does that sand go?
Up your nose, in your lungs.
And guys, sand is somethingcalled silica, right yeah, and
basically it's glass and so thatgets in your lungs.
Would that be part of likeinterstitial lung disease?
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:23):
Look who we have.
J Basser (04:26):
Well, Senor Cobb, how are you?
Ray Cobb (04:29):
Yes, I feel you got on .
J Basser (04:32):
Hey, okay, well, we're glad you could make it, ray,
but would that be consideredinterstitial lung disease,
bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:41):
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
Yes.
J Basser (04:43):
Okay, yes, it can develop into interstit.
Bethanie Spangenberg (04:44):
You're here, yes, okay, yes, it can
develop a deadness long disease.
J Basser (04:46):
Okay, Okay, so that's what you know.
We're discussing with him andhe filed his claim and got
denied.
So I told him to reach out andget a good IMO and get his
records.
So maybe he'll call the rightcompany here very soon and get
it done.
Bethanie Spangenberg (05:02):
Hey, you know, one thing that I think I
have a good appreciation for,mainly when it comes to the
clinical side of things, isbecause I have focused on
occupational medicine since 2015.
And I love occupationalmedicine.
Typically, what I see inoccupational medicine, which is
kind of different from otherfields of medicine, is that
(05:22):
typically your workers want toget better, your patients want
to get better.
They're motivated, they want toget back out earning money and
being independent and not beingkind of slowed down.
Typically your occupationalhealth patients.
They're younger, and thenthere's a lot of safety measures
that go into occupationalduties.
(05:43):
So there's a lot of safetytraining for lifting mechanisms,
a lot of prevention, becauseOSHA does not like high injuries
in the workplace and they canactually come back and find the
workplace for their OSHAinjuries.
So one thing that we did orthat we do in occupational
medicine we do periodic healthassessments just like they do in
(06:05):
occupational medicine.
We do periodic healthassessments just like they do in
the military.
We do pre-employment physicals,we make them do pulmonary
function tests, and so we cansee a lot of things that an
individual may have, like ifthey go in with COPD but they're
trying to wear a respirator.
Those two don't get alongbecause you're not getting good
oxygen in.
(06:25):
So looking and reading a lotabout the PFTs and understanding
the environment they're in, youcan understand how these
different environments and themilitary can impact their duties
as well.
When I think of respiratoryconditions and occupational
health, there's one particularpatient that I will never forget
(06:45):
because he was so young.
He was in his 20s and he workedin a pottery factory and that
kid did not wear the appropriatebreathing, he wore more like a
paper mask rather than what hewas supposed to be wearing and
his pulmonary function test wasterrible.
(07:06):
And I again just like sand,those are large, large
particulate matter and that'sgoing straight into the lungs.
The lungs don't recover likeyour skin or like other parts of
the body, and that particulatematter creates scarring in the
lungs that the body can't turnover and recover from.
(07:28):
So a lot of your lung damagethat occurs is more on a
permanent basis.
That scarring makes the tissueharder.
The oxygen doesn't want to passthrough that scar tissue.
And here this kid was at 28years old with this terrible
pulmonary function test and Ithink I lectured that kid for
like 30 minutes.
Like I know, you're young, youdon't understand.
(07:48):
You have to protect your lungs.
You have to, otherwise you needto find a new job, because he
wasn't going to make it.
I mean, this was, you know,five, six years ago, but I don't
know where he's at now, but atthe time it was very striking to
see.
J Basser (08:09):
That's good, I mean.
But you were discussing masks.
Yes, Back in the day 70s, late70s, early 80s, they give us an
opportunity and option to docertain sampling of asbestos
with a certain 3M8710 mask andat the time it was the biggest
(08:33):
and the best they had, you know,and I came out to study years
later if I could find it sayingthat the mask was about
worthless, especially forasbestos particles.
So, you know, somebody comes upand you got a claim and says,
well, you wore a mask, Well you,for asbestos particles.
Yep, you know somebody comes upand you've got a claimant and
says well, you wore a mask, Well, you didn't wear a mask, you
wore a Band-Aid Because, I mean,the big fibers won't get you
(08:55):
but the small ones will andthat's what kills you.
Bethanie Spangenberg (09:05):
And that's that glass-type concept getting
into the lungs and scarring thelungs.
And what they found aboutasbestos is that it's not just
like you know, it's just it'snot the person exposed.
It's not just the person that'sexposed that gets the damage,
because it stays on your clothesand then you take it home and
then now you're ruffling allthose fibers into the air in the
home and other people aregetting exposed to it as well.
(09:27):
So it's not just the personthat's there, it's maybe even
the laundry, people at theemployment that are dealing with
it, or people at home.
J Basser (09:37):
What happened was that back in the early days, when
they first realized that it wasGod's great gift of insulation,
they mined African ambrosite inAfrica and the workers would go
down to the mines and they wouldgo ahead and they would mine
the ore and whatever and get itout of the ground and they would
send it over to the processingfacilities.
These guys would handle it andthey would, you know, they would
(09:59):
mix it up and things like that.
These guys would get up anddone for work and they'd go home
and they'd go sit down andtheir kids would come jump on
their lap, the wives would givethem hugs and kisses and, from
what I understand, the entirefactory died in just a matter of
time.
Bethanie Spangenberg (10:13):
Yeah.
J Basser (10:14):
So it's serious True story and so you know that's
kind of like an oh crap moment.
You know what happened here.
You know well what happenedhere is this stuff is toxic,
especially after an ambrosite,because it's basically the
smallest fiber asbestos and theyuse it in a lot of insulation
and a lot of buds and thingslike that, and once it breaks up
(10:34):
we're talking manute fibersthat get in your lungs and it
gets everywhere else too.
It can get in your throat, youcan get it in your kidneys.
It's not your best friend.
Bethanie Spangenberg (10:47):
It's bad.
A lot of the toxins tend tomigrate to the kidneys and
things that are ingestedtypically migrate to the kidneys
.
Obviously, things that youinhale are going to stick to the
lungs, but things that areingested, they tend to get stuck
in the kidneys during theclearance process.
J Basser (11:05):
Well, you tell you do you know you're about as best as
you get some of the kidneysduring the clearance process.
Well, you tell you do you knowyou're about as best as you get
some of the stuff in your throatand you take a drink.
It's going to your kidneys, youknow, and you're sitting there
down down the line, but we'lltouch on that in a minute.
As far as that, I mean it's youknow, exposures.
I guess the biggest effect inthe way you contact exposures
(11:28):
has to be either through theskin or the lungs, right?
Bethanie Spangenberg (11:33):
Primarily yeah.
J Basser (11:35):
Yeah, so no.
For example, chemicals likecertain gases.
The VX or GB, it's lung or skin, and no, vx is skin.
Gb has actually more in thelungs because you know it's an
inhalant.
It's a very thin material andof course you don't want to be.
I only know two people that'sbeen exposed to it and one of
(11:59):
them is still alive, barely, buthe was exposed to VX.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:05):
Now can you explain what VX is?
J Basser (12:09):
Well, sarin gas is GB Okay, that's the code and VX is
derivative of the sarin gas.
Only difference is it's kind ofwhat do you call it?
They filter it down and whatthey do is they add another
chemical to it, like anoil-based thing.
(12:30):
They make it a lot thicker, soit's got a thicker viscosity, so
when you're exposed to it ithangs on longer and it doesn't
have the traumatic effects ofthe sarin gas, because the sarin
gas will cause you to rip youreyeballs out, and this one here
is a little bit longer lasting,slower death.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:50):
So do you want to?
J Basser (12:51):
go ahead.
Bethanie Spangenberg (12:53):
Why don't you talk about Project Shad a
little bit Okay?
J Basser (12:59):
Put on my thinking cap here.
Back in the 1960s there was asecret project At the time it
was a secret and it was a Navyand Army combination project
called Project 112 Shad.
Project 112 was the Army side,project Shad was the Navy side,
(13:24):
project Chad was the Navy side.
And what they did?
They wanted to do a bunch oftesting to see how certain
biological agents, chemicalagents and other things affected
our troops.
So each test had a specificname.
I can stay with Elkhunt.
(13:45):
Elkhunt 1 started in 1964 inAlaska, just after the old big
earthquake, and so this group offolks went out into the boonies
about 30 miles from their baseand they built a little camp and
it's Elkhunt right on theGershwin River.
And so they built these littlequonset huts and they had all
(14:07):
this stuff and everybody hadtheir uniforms and they'd go out
on marches, out in the fieldand do stuff and as they were
going, planes would fly over andspray them and about once every
other week they'd take themback into town, which is 30
miles, and go through a bunch ofmedical tests.
All the records were sealed butthey had all kinds of stuff.
(14:29):
I know they had certain agentslike maybe Agent Orange, if I
can get this word right,facilius Barbie Called the skin
irritation.
Bethanie Spangenberg (14:42):
I'm not sure.
J Basser (14:44):
Yeah, and then they spread it on the land grounds,
just all kind of crazy stuff,you know.
And of course it was all beenclassified.
A lot has been declassified bynow, but there's only 5,000
people involved in the test andthe Navy had very similar issues
, but they would go by andspread the ships and the stuff,
and the Granville Hall was oneof the ships that they used for
the test and and the GranvilleHall was one of the ships that
(15:07):
they used for the test, and outof these 5,000 people there's
not very many left alive today.
Some of the medical doctors,some of the scientists involved,
they're all dead from it and soit's.
They didn't recognize that theyshould have presumptuous for
these vets but they didn't do it.
And I know two vets that wereinvolved in it.
We had one as a current gueston the show when he finally
(15:29):
passed away.
Of course, actually he went toVietnam, so he got double whammy
the blue water, you know.
I mean these guys got bluewater, but there's a Project 112
website you can look at.
You can also follow a guy namedGerald Cook.
Gerald's got a lot of healthissues right now, but he's still
(15:51):
with us and he's my co-host fora long long time on the show
and we did a lot of stufftogether.
So he was the guy at FortGreeley, project 112.
Bethanie Spangenberg (16:04):
That's actually the first time I ever
heard of that was from you andtalking with Gerald, and so when
you started to talk about it alittle bit, I'm like, well, you
know, tell everybody else aboutit, because that was a while ago
that we talked about it.
It is.
J Basser (16:18):
And we've done actually shows on it with people
and things like that.
And of course now it took him along time.
He first filed his claim in2002 and it took him forever to
get to where he's at now.
It was one now after another,kind of like the early Agent
(16:42):
Orange claims right Ray, RightRight, it's bad stuff.
Go ahead, Beth Right.
Bethanie Spangenberg (16:48):
Talking a little bit about Agent Orange.
You know the challenge with alot of these chemicals or at
least the older chemicals isthat they're not actively doing
studies on the chemicals.
They have to look at what hashappened in the past or what
data do we have from thoseexposed to the chemical.
(17:11):
So they're not actively testingthese chemicals in the lab to
try to see if they cause thistype of cancer, that type of
cancer or what happens.
So when you try to look forresearch and data that's more
recent related to Agent Orange,it's basically a retrospective
study where they've collectedthe old data and now they're
(17:32):
trying to make something of it.
And so for a veteran that'strying to fight a toxic exposure
claim like Agent Orange, ifthey're trying to say, well,
their cancer is related to AgentOrange exposure in the past,
they may find challenges findingnew literature to support their
(17:54):
claim.
The one thing I want to mention, for not only Agent Orange but
any of these toxic exposures,because majority of these toxic
exposures are forever chemicals.
They are what they calllipophilic.
They love the fat in our bodies, so they stay there forever and
(18:16):
as we sweat and as we loseweight or metabolize those fat
cells or energy, those chemicalscome back out into our
bloodstream and so, even thoughit's not on a presumptive, if
you are fighting a claim, youmay have to get a private
medical opinion, because whathas to happen is you need a
(18:40):
medical person to look at thatveteran's history, that
veteran's exposure, and look atthe data and what we know about
the chemicals to see if it is atleast as likely as not related
to the exposure.
So, yes, they have thesepresumptives, yes, there is
limited data on these, but eachveteran has to be looked at
(19:03):
individually.
You may have a veteran that hasabsolutely no risk factors but
for their exposure to AgentOrange and they've developed
some type of cancer.
And so, as a medical expert,what we do is we really look at
the veteran's history,understanding their medical
conditions and see where theAgent Orange or the toxic
(19:25):
exposures may have impacted ordeveloped into a cancer.
The other thing I want tomention from the medical expert
side of things is a lot of thesechemicals are what they Any
endocrine system is verysusceptible to those chemicals
(19:53):
and how they may be changed.
The other thing is and this iswhere the cancer comes in is
that these chemicals change theway the body, the way the cells
function.
It mutates the DNA and disruptsthe communication on how
(20:16):
they're supposed to turn over,and so with the mutation of the
gene, that's where the cancersdevelop.
So these chemicals, even 30years ago, have affected the DNA
in the cell and how the celldevelops, and then 30 years
later you have some type ofcancer Again.
This is something thatcase-by-case basis needs to be
(20:39):
looked at for the veterans whenit comes to service connection,
and don't just sit for apresumptive, don't just say,
well, it's not on thepresumptive, it's probably not
related, and move on.
You know, sit down, have adiscussion with your surrounding
veterans, with your spouse,with your family, and talk about
it and see, you know, wherethese exposures or other, even
(21:02):
your occupational work, may havecontributed to the development
of your disease saying thatthat's a great point, because
there is a doctor at VanderbiltUniversity and I forget what her
name is.
Ray Cobb (21:19):
She's written two books already about the agent
orange exposure and the sideeffects and things that are not
on the assumption list and shewas in a conversation recently.
She made the point that some ofthe studies to which the
military has done in othergroups or organizations do not
(21:43):
concentrate on veterans thatwere directly exposed in Vietnam
or any other location.
But they have gone to theplants and where it was produced
and they have done someresearch there and they're
trying to say that's legitimate.
But what they're doing they'reinterviewing people up in the
(22:04):
front office and and up in thefront part of the plant that was
never around it, that never hadanything to do with it, never
touched it or came anywheregetting close, and she's got a
couple of books out that mightbe really worth learning.
But going back to your point,that was one of the things she
said.
It was that there was a lot ofthings that she believes and
(22:27):
she's been able to research atVanderbilt of other problems
that are not on the assumptionlist created by Agent Orange
That'd be a good guess.
J Basser (22:38):
Let me give you a little history on that.
Ray Cobb (22:40):
If we could convince you to come on.
J Basser (22:41):
Yeah Well, just have to make get James on too,
because he'd have to.
Maybe he can coax her intocoming on, you know, because she
kind of likes James.
But Agent Orange, bethany, whenNEMA first came out and it
(23:03):
first was a very hot topic andthe presumptives and everything
else, because NEMA took all thisstuff and made it into the law,
the court case, the researchthat they had on Agent Orange
was basically what themanufacturer had set MSDS and
things like that for thechemical.
Any field research reallywasn't done in the US but it was
(23:25):
mostly done in Australia.
So they had a lot of Australianinformation and things like
that they had to use.
But there was really too muchin the US and things like that
they had to use.
But there was really too muchin the US.
And we're talking maybe what 80s, 70s, 80s when it started
blowing up, you know thatstarted popping diabetes and all
kinds of crap.
What's going on with this stuff, you know?
(23:46):
So that's back when the VA hadwrite you a letter.
Your claim was notwell-grounded.
Hit the road, jack, you know.
You ever seen one of them,bethany?
Bethanie Spangenberg (23:55):
Seen a lot of them.
Yeah, and that's where theveterans get frustrated,
especially Vietnam veterans.
It's like it was terrible whenwe were deployed, it was
terrible when we came home andnow I'm just making another
fight.
Most people they don't want todeal with it and they just move
on and live life without everthinking about their illnesses
(24:24):
because of their time in serviceaccept the fact that they may
be entitled to something andthat if you have somebody that
can guide you through theprocess and take the stress off,
then you can be successful.
(24:45):
But, like I said, most of themjust put their heads down and
just truck forward and theydon't want to deal with the
government anymore.
J Basser (24:51):
Okay, that's a good point.
I want to tell vets a reallyimportant point Now.
I know Ray's situation with hisAgent Orange claim.
You know Ray was exposed toAgent Orange and he was the
second veteran in the world, thecountry, to get his service
text for Agent Orange exposureOutside of Vietnam.
He was stationed here.
(25:11):
He was exposed to FortMcClellan, alabama, outside of
Vietnam.
He was stationed here.
He was exposed in Fort McLeod,alabama.
Guys, if you're going to file aclaim and say you're PACT Act
limited to where you're limitedto the sandbox okay, you know,
to the Middle East and thingslike that, but you were exposed
to the same type of stuff here.
You know you can't use thepresumptive statute in order to
(25:33):
file your claim but you can andyou should, if you want to file
a claim, use a directservice-connected lane to file
that claim.
Ray Cobb (25:46):
You know it'd be a little bit longer process but
you'd still get her done Welland also the important part
about that is veterans you needto keep in mind when you file a
direct exposure or a directaccident.
You got to prove who, what,when, where, why and how and
(26:09):
that's got to be documented andthe best way.
I mean, even in my case I hadeyewitnesses, I had management,
I happened to be actually itwasn't where I knew I was
exposed, but I was actually inthe chemical training center
(26:29):
building.
I was on the fourth floor andthe lab was on the second floor
and our drains were shared byeach other.
So if something got washed downthe drain it came from there
right through our photo labright on out into the pipes.
And, with that being said, themost important thing in my case
(26:52):
and I was very fortunate isphotographs.
You know it's was veryfortunate is photographs.
You know it's hard to argueagainst a photograph.
So if there's something thathappened and there was a
photograph made and it mighthave been made just with no
intent to do anything with it,sometimes you can find those
through the Library of Congress.
(27:12):
I did.
I was able to find not only minebut some photographs that a
previous photographer had madeof the guys actually spraying
the Agent Orange, and I thinkthat you know it's hard to argue
with a photograph of the guystanding there with three tanks
on his back and a little spraygun pointed down at the ground.
(27:34):
I mean, yeah, you can't tell ifit's Agent Orange or what.
But remember, what you have toprove is it's likely, it's not.
So if you're in that area andyou got it as likely as not and
you got photographs to go alongwith it, then you know you're
ready to go.
But that's a part of buildingthe case and coming up with what
(27:56):
you need.
J Basser (28:00):
Big claims issues.
Say, for example, Bethany,you're a former C&P examiner,
right?
Okay, yes, For example, youhave a guy that has a
presumptive condition based onmaybe it could be Agent Orange,
it could be anything, and saythey send them to you for a C&P
exam, okay, Well, as soon as yousee the C&P exam, you realize
(28:21):
this guy's got the wronginformation because they're
asking for a nexus as to how hewas exposed to Agent Orange, you
know.
And so if it's a presumptivecondition and you see that it's
kind of weird because I mean,basically, if he's already got a
presumptive issue, you shouldbe able to do the CMP based on
(28:42):
it and try to get a level ofseverity right.
So that's for the issue.
Bethanie Spangenberg (28:45):
Yes.
J Basser (28:47):
But you wouldn't have to be worrying about providing
nexus to whether he was exposedor not.
Is that correct, correct, okay,what I've seen is I've seen it
both ends of the spectrum.
Bethanie Spangenberg (28:58):
Yeah, I have seen it as well.
And while we're on presumptivesand medical opinions, I want to
talk a little bit about thepatterns that I do see when it
comes to VA medical opinionsopinions.
(29:20):
The rater may ask about acondition being related to a
toxic exposure and for somereason the C&P examiner says in
their opinion well, it's not onthe presumptive list, therefore
it's not service related.
That is not correct.
Most of the times in the ratingdecision they will outline the
reasoning, they will copy andpaste the reasoning why you got
a negative opinion.
So that medical examiner'snegative opinion is typically in
(29:42):
the rating decision and youwill see in there that the
medical examiner opined that theclaimed condition is not
presumptive of Agent Orangeexposure and that is not the way
it's supposed to be done.
They are not asking the medicalexaminer to identify whether or
(30:03):
not it's a presumptive.
They are wanting you to look atthese studies.
They're wanting the medicalexaminer to look at what the
research has shown.
What does the EPA say?
What do these other chemicalresearch studies say in
relationship to the chemical andthe claim condition?
(30:23):
Additionally, they want thatexaminer to look at that
individual veteran, look attheir history and understand
where the claim condition may becoming from.
So I see that error a lot andmore recently with the Terra,
what I'm seeing and I stilldon't understand this and I'm
(30:44):
starting to think it'sintentional, but they will ask
whether or not a condition isrelated to a toxic exposure,
even though that is not the waythe veteran claimed it.
So, for example, I actuallypulled up the file right here
because I want to remember totalk about it there was a claim
(31:06):
for sleep apnea and they claimedthat the condition was
secondary to their respiratoryissue and the rater in this case
the rater proposed the questionor submitted the question
incorrectly to the examiner.
So the rater in this one saysis the veteran's sleep apnea
(31:29):
secondary to a toxic exposurerelated activity?
And it's like, no, that's nothow the veteran claimed it, they
mentioned nothing about a toxicexposure in their statement.
And the examiner because theystick to what is in the request
from the rater they will go onand provide an opinion saying no
(31:51):
, this is not related tochemicals, this is an anatomical
disease, or they'll go on totalk about the obstruction of
obstructive sleep apnea, and sothose opinions we're seeing a
lot of those come to us and say,hey, I need a medical opinion.
I got denied Again.
(32:12):
That's outlined in the ratingdecision.
They'll copy and paste it andyou look at those ratings and
you're like, oh my gosh, can wejust put this back as like a
higher level review?
Can somebody please just lookat this and say this was
proposed wrong by the rater?
Can we send it back for anappropriate opinion?
But I think the reason I thinkthat's intentional is because
(32:33):
it's another way for costcontrol.
Deny, deny, deny Money goesdown.
We're not pushing money out andthen it makes a veteran fight
again and it's the hamster wheelof nonsense.
J Basser (32:45):
It's a bus.
It goes around in a circle.
It's like a racetrack.
One person gets off, one persongets on.
The only thing left is the ICmoney for the spouse, so it's
not new money.
Ray Cobb (32:59):
I've had to show a lot around here too, that the
veterans get aggravated andactually don't do it, you know.
J Basser (33:07):
The question she was talking about.
Guys, when the writer talks tothe examiner and starts setting
little notes in there saying,you know, here's what I think
you know, or here's a questionyou know, is this guy's sleep
apnea secondary to a chemicalexposure and exposure issue
right?
Basically, if you file theclaim based on terror, it
(33:30):
shouldn't be there.
It should not be there, itshould be somewhere else.
And they've got our officeregional office that handles
terror.
They sent one of my claims lastyear to that area the one I
just won actually and so we canmove in Leading questions and
(33:52):
every C&P exam I've ever seengot copies of and I've had a
bunch of them.
The majority of them do haveleading questions because
they've got some really sharpindividuals inside the ROs.
One of the KSAs to be hired inthe regional office is the
creative writing skills.
Bethanie Spangenberg (34:09):
Yes.
J Basser (34:13):
KSA is called a knowledge, skill and ability.
So yeah, but it is what it is.
I mean you know exposures arebad.
You know you expose a lot ofdifferent things.
I mean you know you've gotstuff in the Middle East, even
stuff.
Bethanie Spangenberg (34:28):
Not.
J Basser (34:29):
In the war zone.
For example, the military is adangerous place, especially the
US Navy, especially the US Navy,because the US Navy has these
very, very large ships.
They have tenders, they haveships that have they're floating
cities.
They have machine shops, theyhave they're welders, they have
(34:50):
argon gas bottles, they havefabricators Everything there
available to mankind.
Accidents are going to happenin an industrial society,
regardless of what you say, it'sgoing to happen.
It's a dangerous place,especially on the aircraft
carrier and the deck of theaircraft carrier.
You know people get killed inthat job so.
And armies got their own, youknow they've got their own
(35:13):
cities too.
So I mean you don't have to bea war vet to get hurt or maimed
or whatever.
And they've got exposure issuestoo.
You've got a lot of cleaningsolvents.
You've got things like that.
You've got red lead, you've gotpaints.
You've got aircraft carrierdecking silica with those jet
(35:33):
engines blasting off.
You know it takes that stuff upand kicks it in the air.
They don't have it now.
You used to have the old jetguns when you go get your
vaccinations.
The only thing that was was ahepatitis passing on machine
right there.
Bethanie Spangenberg (35:49):
I will tell you that we have done a lot
of hep C and jet injector cases, because there is a study out
of California that talks aboutthe hepatitis outbreak
associated with the guninjectors and during that time,
when they were using them, theydidn't even have understanding
(36:12):
of hepatitis B virus fully, andit wasn't until the nineties
that they really understood whathappened.
And so absolutely that's justbloodborne pathogen for you and
for you and for you.
Everybody gets a bloodbornepathogen.
J Basser (36:29):
Well, it's true.
It is true, you know.
I mean, I guess they got a curefor it.
Ray Cobb (36:34):
now, I didn't like those cure for it now Puts an
remission on it.
They didn't like those guns.
Bethanie Spangenberg (36:36):
Hair remission.
Ray Cobb (36:38):
Yeah.
J Basser (36:40):
They did.
They told my grandpa back in1958 when they cut him off 100%.
He had tuberculosis.
Mr Huff, you're cured.
They cured him.
My mother grew up outside ofthose TB hospitals they had back
in the day.
Bethanie Spangenberg (36:56):
Yeah.
J Basser (36:57):
Yeah, she moved around very.
Her uncle Bob moved around alot to these different hospitals
because it's tuberculosis, wow,and I didn't know they'd cut
him off.
Of course I wasn't involved toomuch and finally, but I just
talked to him one day and I saidyou gotta be kidding me.
They can't cut you off.
There's no cure for hepatitisor, I'm sorry, no cure for
(37:17):
tuberculosis.
He said what do you mean?
He told me I was cured.
So I got him the phone, made acouple of phone calls and got a
couple of guys involved and gotan appeal going and next thing,
you know, he got one of thelargest checks that he's ever
issued.
He died two days later.
Bethanie Spangenberg (37:45):
He's hanging on for something he was.
J Basser (37:48):
For instance so good man.
Bethanie Spangenberg (37:53):
Now you talked about stateside exposures
and we talked a little bitabout the Agent Orange being
stateside.
I want to talk or mention thecontaminated water exposures and
Camp Lejeune and the one thingthat, again, just because the
(38:13):
presumptions are not there doesnot mean that your condition was
not the result of an exposureto the contaminated water.
You should definitely at leastseek some type of review.
We offer record reviews.
Have a medical expert, look andsee is there a possibility that
it could be related and see, isthere a possibility that it
(38:37):
could be related.
The data and the presumptiveperiods for Camp Lejeune are
what bothers me the most aboutthat.
Presumptive because there's apresumptive period for the
contaminated water exposure,like if you were there for a
certain time to a certain time Ihave it here in front of me but
I think it was like 87 maybe.
But if you look at the data,the data shows that the soil was
(38:58):
still contaminated in the early90s.
So why they cut thatpresumptive period off in the
1980s is mind-blowing to me,because the soil data is still
showing or still showed that itwas elevated into the 90s.
And so even if you are a CampLejeune veteran that served
(39:18):
there after the presumptiveperiod and you develop something
that you might think is theresult of the contaminated water
exposure.
Seek the expertise of a medicalopinion or a medical expert in
this area.
J Basser (39:33):
There should be environmental impact studies
based on that, because ifsomething's still hot, they've
got to keep testing.
Yeah, and you know, becauseit's got to be clear and I know
a couple of environmentalscientists that actually work on
stuff like that, you know, andif it's still involved, it's
still in the groundwater, youknow things like that.
Yeah, you can get them, but it'sstill they have to clear it.
(39:57):
You know it's kind of like allhands all clear so, but they
know this is a smoking gun forthe people filing claims.
So they got presumptive issues.
However, if you don't have apresumptive issue in a situation
that's still there, you getthat evidence that was still
there.
You file a directservice-connected claim.
You look to get that evidencethat was still there.
You file a direct service toclaim.
You look to get that evidenceto claim.
You can't lose, you're going towin, because they can't say, oh
(40:18):
, it's gone now.
It's like Ray, you never usedAgent Orange, you were never
exposed to Agent Orange.
We did not use Agent Orangeinside the continental US.
How many times have you heardthat one buddy?
Ray Cobb (40:32):
Oh, I have no idea.
I mean, I have probably 10letters telling me that back
from you know the claimsdivision and you know, Agent
Orange is known to stay in thesoil.
It's been up to 100 years.
It's supposed to stay in thesoil 100 years and you're right,
(40:52):
it's not going to go away.
And you know there's somedocumentation.
You have to do some legwork,guys, and I know, like if you're
my age, I mean all this stuffthat we're doing here tonight
even is all new to me.
And when you get into this typeof thing you're going to find
out in order to get yourresearch done.
You know we're going to have toturn to a younger person
(41:15):
whether or not it's a grandsonor granddaughter or someone of
that age group in their 20s tohelp.
We've got a best thing, youknow, here you're looking at.
Yeah, the best place to go tofind any of those contaminations
if you can get them to releaseit is.
(41:37):
I can tell you two examples ofthis.
One is to go to the Corps ofEngineers because they have to
keep all these records.
Now, as soon as the Corps ofEngineers comes back and tells
you we cannot release those,that's because they're
classified.
Now go to your congressman andask for copies.
(41:58):
Now they may send you a copy.
One case I did this with theysent the guy a copy of 27 pages
of an area that he said he wasexposed and they had blackened
out 70% of it.
Just took a line and blackenedit out and said it was because
(42:19):
of security.
So, what we did was sit down andwrote a letter and said well,
you know the fact that youblackened it out, the fact that
it was national security and thefact that this did happen in
1965, 66 and 67, when he said hewas at that location, it's as
(42:44):
likely as not that the chemicalAgent Orange was used, meaning
that there's a 51% chance or a50% chance and that 50-50 goes
in favor of the veteran.
But once we turned that letterin, we had an answer in three
(43:04):
weeks and he was approved at100%.
But if we had not had thatdocumentation which our
congressman got got, that hadbeen blackened out, we would
have never won the case.
I mean he would have, he wouldhave passed away two years later
, his wife would not haveanything and you know it would
have all been a lost cause.
(43:27):
But he didn't want to go to thecongressman.
He told me I never will forgetthis.
He said my congressman is toobusy to help me.
I said that's his job, you know.
Hopefully he's not, and sureenough he wasn't.
Now I know he didn't do it.
(43:48):
I know he got his aide to goover and get the records pulled
and make copies and all that.
And yeah, it took 60 days toget them but it meant a home run
.
So they're out there.
Folks, you just got to use alittle bit of knowledge and
(44:08):
thinking who cleaned it up?
There's actually.
You know you talked aboutearlier about the United States
using it and the differentchemicals that are used in the
United States.
I have a copy and I know youhave it too.
I think, john, you still haveit that back in 1985 or 86, they
(44:31):
gathered all these individualsfrom these military bases here
in the United States and sentthem down to the Air Force
Academy there in Colorado andthey had a week no, I had a
two-week long training on how toclean up these toxic exposures
(44:55):
that were left behind on thebase, and Camp Lejeune was one
that was named Fort McAleph,alabama, fort Gordon, georgia,
but they sent individuals from120 bases from the continental
United States to attend thattwo-week seminar on how to clean
up these toxic chemicals.
(45:16):
But they didn't use them.
Why did they send them there tolearn how to clean them up?
J Basser (45:24):
Well, I had back then, I think.
Ray Cobb (45:26):
I was in the.
J Basser (45:27):
Navy, but I was working for the Army, part of
the Army, age seven, and theyhad an issue.
We had guys gone there and wehad guys actually went down to
Addison, alabama, to put roadbars on jeeps for a year.
But that was the start of BRAC.
We knew it was coming along.
By Three years later BRAC wouldshow us that we had that's the
(45:47):
Base Red Line McClosureCommitment.
They started closing bases andthings like that.
It's very similar to what'sgoing on now.
They closed a bunch of bases,combined a bunch of bases and
they got rid of a whole lot ofpeople.
A lot of people don't likeworking for the government, get
caught in production.
Of course, of course I've beeninvolved in two of them.
I couldn't win for losing.
(46:08):
That's when I started to gointo automobile business.
Bethanie Spangenberg (46:18):
Before we get too far into.
I think we have like 15 minutesleft or maybe less than that
but.
I just want I have a whole listof all the toxic exposures that
are kind of relevant to themilitary.
So if you're a veteran that'slistening and you've heard us
this far, I just want to kind ofput these things out here,
about things that you need tothink about.
Was I exposed to these?
So obviously we talked aboutagent orange, I think.
(46:42):
We mentioned burden burn pitsand airborne hazards.
We talked about the sand.
You know I've had veterans talkto me about waking up with ash
on their face or particles ontheir face.
We didn't talk about depleteduranium, but that is an exposure
, gulf War, even there's somestateside depleted uranium
(47:07):
exposures.
Depleted uranium exposures.
We talked about the nerveagents like Shad Project, shad
Project 112, chemical warfareagents, mustard gas, the sarin,
(47:29):
as being a toxic warfare, toxicchemical Radiation exposure,
atomic radiation, nuclear, andthen contaminated water.
We talked about asbestosexposure, which we talked a
little bit about, but that's we.
I don't know if we reallyemphasized, you know, the ships
and it being on, you knoweverywhere, okay, and then?
(47:55):
the last one is the firefightingfoams and the PFAS.
Those are different exposures.
I think that's all of them.
Oh, oil, well fires.
Mm-hmm, that's bad why don'tyou tell us about asbestos?
J Basser (48:19):
I'll talk to Charlie asbestos.
The Navy has a rating back inthe day called a whole
maintenance technician.
They still have the same ratingand these guys are the ones
that actually are the keepers ofthe ship.
They weld.
If you get a hold of the ship,you get hit by a bomb.
They're the welders, they'rethe firefighters, they're the
(48:42):
ones that actually they run theequipment, all the damage
lockers, all the welding shops,all the insulation, everything.
There's largely a lot of ships,especially tenders and things
like that, because they takecare of not only tenders and
ships, they take care of theirbabies, the submarines, the
destroyers or whatever thatvessel is used from the early 20
(49:10):
me all the way up to probably,I think, the if I'm not mistaken
, I think the 688 classsubmarine was the first
basically asbestos-free, and sothat's the most
asbestos-on-the-submarine.
Anything before then hadasbestos all over the place.
I mean, these ships had them insteam pipes, engine rooms,
(49:30):
engine compartments, even hadthem in the flooring in between
the engine room and the maindecks because it was very hot
down there.
There's a lot of asbestos-typefumes.
There's chrysothil, amesitedifferent types for different
purposes.
What happens is, after a periodof time, the insulation, the
(49:51):
lagging they call it lagging,gets crippled or just gets dingy
or gets damaged by movingmachinery around and sometimes
you have to replace the pipingand you know you have to remove
the asbestos.
My job basically started with Iwas more of a project manager
for some of this stuff.
My job basically started with Iwas more of a project manager
(50:12):
for some of the stuff.
I would get the sample and wesent it over to the
Environmental PreventiveMedicine Unit.
We'd sample it and we'd test itand see what type it was.
Then we'd set up a containmentand rip it out and they'd go
ahead and they'd redo the pipesand reweld them and new pipes
and things like that and theywould re-insulate it.
You know Mostly done onsubmarines.
That was our big job, our area.
(50:34):
You know we were a repairdepartment and the old
submarines are ate up with it.
You know because a lot of steampipes Biggest issue we had
there was inside the RCs andreactors.
You can touch any radiationexposure.
You know that's kind of funny.
You know that was the onlybusiness worker in 1985 that was
(50:59):
a certified radiation workerand we had an incident on board
one of the subs where we had toremove a bunch of business
outside the inner city and Ijust project managed a bunch of
shipyard guys doing it, but westill got it done.
Kind of a nice little letterfor it, you know.
Ray Cobb (51:17):
John, you helped me with a gentleman with asbestos
exposure when you were tellingus and Bethany, you may want to
comment this we sent him to getan x-ray of his lungs and how it
showed up in the x-ray withdifferent dyes and things.
But in his case which happened alot with the Air Force and the
(51:38):
Army, his old barracks and oldbases that were built during
World War II and some in WorldWar I back in the late 50s and
early 60s, both they came in andthey really redid them.
They tore out all of thesheetrock, the insulation, put
(51:58):
them up and redid them.
What I'm thinking of right nowis here close to me, northern
Field Airfield.
At one time when Arle Air ForceBase was being developed.
The Air Force used that forabout four or five years while
developing and building oral airforce base on what used to be
(52:18):
uh count forest and um, he wasthat's where he was exposed was
down in florida redecoratingsome of these military complexes
, some of these barracks.
But he won his case just, oh, Ithink, about three months ago.
Bethanie Spangenberg (52:39):
Wow, just three months ago.
J Basser (52:44):
Back in the yeah.
Back in the 70s Back in the 70sand 60s.
Ray Cobb (52:52):
It took five years to do it there was no asbestos
abatement.
It took five years to do it,and he finally had to get
somebody to help him out ofCalifornia it's some things in
life.
J Basser (53:08):
You got an older house , popcorn, siblings and things
like that.
It's probably got asbestos init.
Bethanie Spangenberg (53:15):
Hospitals have a lot of it.
J Basser (53:16):
But you know, especially in the colder areas
where they've got a lot of steampipes and steam you know a lot
of steam heat sources and thingslike that You've got a lot of
it.
I don't know if the buildingindustry has ate up with it,
because every pair of brakesmade before 2000 ate up with
asbestos Mechanics.
They're exposed to it.
(53:37):
But mostly it's in airplanes.
Especially the ones in Vietnamhad asbestos in them, but mostly
Navy ships.
You know.
Barracks had them too, you know.
But I had a lot of guys onboard the Navy that were Mr GQ.
They had a nice uniform andthey ironed their shirts and
things like that and they walkedaround like they were something
special.
They just had a clipboard andwalked around a little busy all
day.
They didn't do too much Anyhow.
(53:59):
They would get up in themorning and they'd take their
little metal wire hangers outand they had a steam pipe above
their bunk.
They'd take their stuff andthey'd poke the steam with the
tip of that coat hanger intothat insulation.
Every time they pulled it outthey exposed the whole
department.
Yeah, I had some knock-downdrag outs on people like that.
(54:20):
They got rolled up a coupletimes for insubordination I did,
but when we went to see the oldman we took care of business.
Yeah.
So you know I'm kind of.
You know I don't.
I didn't play too many gameswhile I kept there, I just did a
job and tried to go home when Icould, so, but as best as some
(54:44):
radiation.
Now there's not a lot ofveterans left alive, if any,
that were a part of theatmospheric testing.
You know, abel Baker, the onein Arizona, bikini Atoll, there
might be a few, a lot of guysafter the first test, because
the guy actually missed thetarget.
You know, kind of off-way,centered a little bit, landed,
(55:06):
supposed to land on top ofBattleship Pennsylvania but
landed about I don't landed,about a mile and a half away or
something else.
So these guys went back onboard the ships to clean them up
.
You remember that story.
It's a true story.
These guys were in troubleBecause them things were hot.
See, radiation is energy emittedfrom an unstable atom or
(55:28):
isotope.
That's radiation.
It is a source of energy Likean x-ray, gamma radiation.
It goes right through you.
There's a thing calledcontamination and people don't
understand the difference.
Contamination is finally thedivided particles of that energy
(55:51):
in an unwanted area or location.
That's the difference betweenradiation and contamination.
And the initial blast radiatedthe ships.
The fallout landed on the ships.
That was the contamination part.
So you're not washing radiationoff because it goes right
through you, but thecontamination is what you got to
wash off and clean up.
Now, sub-breeze, they don'treally have contamination,
(56:19):
they've just got.
You know it's a direct source.
Of course I wouldn't leaveanything inside the rack
apartment anyways on a subbecause they've got to take them
apart when they get rid of thesub and bury them anyways.
Right, remember we've got fourbarackers too.
Fort Greeley had one and itleaked.
Bethanie Spangenberg (56:46):
And we've talked about that quite a bit
actually.
Yeah, and we've talked aboutthat quite a bit actually.
J Basser (56:53):
Yeah yeah, if you need any advice on asbestos coins,
send an email to exposedbed atgmailcom and I can give you some
pointers on it.
I've got the documentations, mycertifications and everything.
Bethanie Spangenberg (57:18):
so I might need to make a resume, you know
, I think, of all the exposuresI think the firefighters may
have the worst ones only becauseI mean they had the asbestos,
any type of fire or smoke, andthen the chemicals that they use
to put out the fires.
Ray Cobb (57:41):
I've actually seen our local fire department with
young people with cancers.
J Basser (57:45):
Well, yeah, that's another one of God's great gifts
.
Hey, this does smothers.
We got a fuel fire.
This smothers it, let's put iton it.
Well, they did.
Yeah, that's A-triple-F theycall it.
It comes in a big graycontainer.
You stick a hose in it, stickthe applicator and it mixes with
the water and poof.
You got the prettiest whitefoam there was and I spray so
(58:07):
much that stuff is unbelievable.
So I spray so much that stuffis unbelievable.
So, as a matter of fact, Itaught at the Reserve Center for
three years up here and we usea lot of it, as well as the
cheap firefighter structure forthe Reserves, this part of
Kentucky.
Yeah, I got letters ofappreciation for that one too,
(58:27):
you know.
So If you file the lawsuit or ifyou join the class action on
the AFFF and you win, from whatI understand I don't think the
VA offsets that lawsuit.
A lot of times they do.
You can look on the list, Likelook at this VA's MOS per list
(58:55):
per asbestos.
You can look at that.
It's on the VA's website, vagovor VA whatever.
You can look it up.
And you can look at all of themilitary's occupational codes,
like you know whole techniciansor whatever, and it tells the
probability of his best exposure.
Okay, and this it should be thehighest one.
(59:17):
You know, because basically youknow it's the guys are doing
the insulators, things like thatare pretty high, really high
level Starts doing that, youknow.
And there's other areas toothat are exposed, you know.
You know, and there's otherareas too that are exposed, you
know.
But you know, you look at theprobability and then you put it
away.
But something interesting ifyou work with asbestos and they
(59:41):
say you didn't find yourperformance appraisals you had
where you're in the military andlook on the back page, It'll
tell you exactly what you did.
Bethanie Spangenberg (59:49):
I'm glad you brought that up because we
hadn't mentioned that yet, butyou're right.
J Basser (59:55):
Yeah, I mean, it's a goldmine.
Information and people like metrying to tell you where to go
or who to put you know who todecide.
I think would work better withyour claim or whatever.
I'm not going to work yourclaim before you because I don't
do that.
You know, I'm a road map.
Okay, Go left, go right.
I could get an accreditationand start hammering claims, but
(01:00:19):
I'm getting old, but that's whatwe do.
Ray Cobb (01:00:26):
Are you young workers, snipers?
J Basser (01:00:29):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but it so you know.
But it is what it is.
I mean you know it's VA in anutshell, because you know, I
mean it says you change the nameof the VA to the DVA, the
Denied Venture Administration.
It's a lot.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:00:51):
Well, we've got.
We're about out of timeactually, so if anybody have any
final comments, anything theywant to say, no thanks for doing
this, beth.
J Basser (01:01:05):
We do appreciate it.
We have a new format.
I'm going to watch it onYouTube after a while and see
how it does.
You guys go to Jay Bassler'sExpose that Productions on
YouTube and you can watch allthese shows and you can watch
all the latest shows we've doneand you see a lot of interesting
people and it'll be a goodthing.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:01:26):
I'm excited.
Hopefully this is smooth.
J Basser (01:01:30):
It should be okay, and We'll get better at it once we
get signed out.
You're not going to jump intoit and hit home runs first.
You've got to take some pitchesfirst right.
Bethanie Spangenberg (01:01:40):
Hey, I'm looking for that home run.
Sign us off, John.
J Basser (01:01:48):
All right, that's it.
It folks, we do appreciate youwatching.
On behalf of Bethany and Ray.
This is John from Expose WebProductions.
We'll be signing off for nowgood night guys.
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