#4 - Calin Culianu & Kallisti: Electron Cash, BCHN, Selene Wallet, and BCH Outlook 2025

Fiendish & Friends Episode 4, your source of "Real Money, Real Tokens, Real Talk". This week, we're joined by two pivotal figures in the BCH community:

• Calin Culianu, the mastermind behind BCH Node, Fulcrum, and Electron Cash, shares insights on the latest technological upgrades set for May 2025, including VM limits and Big Int, enhancing BCH's smart contract capabilities and privacy features.
• Kallisti, a vocal BCH advocate and lead developer of Selene Wallet, brings his perspective on the importance of user-friendly, open-source wallets, the evolving landscape of BCH's privacy measures, and his take on the current state of BCH user experience.

Hear directly from Calin and Kallisti about their ongoing work and how it's shaping the BCH ecosystem. The nuances of privacy in cryptocurrency are discussed, including recent legal victories that signal a positive shift towards crypto privacy.

Both guests offer their optimistic views on BCH's future, discussing potential growth, adoption, and the impact of grassroots movements and technological advancements.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to all you green eyed fiends and welcome to

(00:04):
Fiendish and Friends episode 4, Real Money, Real Tokens, Real Talk.
Joining us for today's episode we have Kalin Kuliano, maintainer and developer of BCHnode,
Fulcrum and Electron Cash, Kallisti, BCH proponent, active BTC Twitter, Whitbattler, I like that,
and one of the developers behind Selene Wallet.

(00:26):
And they will be covering some pretty exciting topics including the projects they are working
on, May 2025 upgrade benefits, importance of privacy and the outlook of 2025.
Before all of that, Fiendish and Friends are running two great giveaways today for a chance
to grab a big stash of up to 60,000 Emerald and some Moria USD, which reminds me I'm going

(00:48):
to take a screenshot right now for all you people that are already in the room.
Oh shit.
I pressed the wrong thing.
There we go.
All right.
You win 5,000 Emeralds by being part of Fiendish and Friends during the snapshot.
During this episode a screenshot of all participants will be taken, be in it to win it.
30,000 Emeralds will be paid off by listening to Fiendish and Friends episode 4 for the

(01:12):
entire live episode and double your Emerald reward by liking and retweeting this Fiendish
and Friends space before the end of the show.
This week in the news, it's only been seven days and there's so many topics to cover.
BCH finally gets an ETF launch as part of the Bitwise 10 Crypto Index ETF.

(01:33):
The fund consists of 10 of the best performing cryptocurrencies and marks the growing recognition
of Bitcoin Cash with an approximate market cap of 12 billion.
Maybe that's actually just gone up in the latest price increase as an important player
in the space and now with yet another possibility for investors to get exposure to this future
building asset class.

(01:54):
Riften Labs, the wizards behind Cauldron Dex have released Moria USD, an asset backed stablecoin
which uses BCH as collateral.
It already has over $12,000 total value locked on Cauldron, putting it in pole position on
the BCH token leaderboard.
Learn more about Moria USD at moria.money or join the recently launched Telegram group

(02:17):
Cauldron Dex.
One MUSD will be sent out to each of the first 30 live listeners of this episode who post
their cash token aware address in the space's comments.
So do that right now if you want to get your hands on some Moria.
Fiendish Token's price has risen 5% over the week with $4,000 of volume over the past 30

(02:40):
days, offering a current APY of around 3% on Cauldron Dex.
As a little reminder, the Fiendish Token is an integral part of the Fiendish and Friends
ecosystem that supercharges community growth through social games, exclusive access to
goodies and services, and can be traded for either BCH or the most important asset of
all time.
One Fiendish is backed by a minimum of one minute of Fiendish services, consultation,

(03:04):
expertise and fun.
The BCH Cash Node has released version 28 which implements the upcoming May 2025 network
upgrade, including two consensus change proposals, Chip 2021-5 VM Limits and Chip 2024-07 Big
Int, with both chips designed to improve the performance and functionality of the Bitcoin

(03:28):
Cash network.
BCH added to basic swap decks, enabling cross-chain atomic swaps, with the highlight being Bitcoin
Cash to Monero, in a fully non-custodial and decentralized setup.
Monero has world-class privacy, which has led to it being delisted from most exchanges.

(03:50):
This collaboration between the two chains offers more use cases for both sides, where
both coins and communities stand to benefit.
BCH Bull, a decentralized and non-custodial leverage trading and hedging platform, charges
ahead with $265 million in total volume.
By providing permissionless on-chain contracts where you can lock up the value of your BCH

(04:13):
to gold, silver, USD and many others, or go long with up to 7.77x leverage with no counterparty
risk, BCH Bull has established itself as the pioneering application in the DeFi space on
a Layer 1 UTXO blockchain.
Recent news, Tornado Cash won a key court decision in the United States Court of Appeals

(04:34):
for the Fifth Circuit.
The court decided that it fell outside of the scope of the law, as smart contracts are
incapable of being owned, a prerequisite of the law, giving a big boon to privacy advocates
and further signs that the US's cold crypto attitude is thawing and is moving towards
a more crypto and privacy friendly stance.

(04:56):
As I'm sure everyone in the community is aware, BCH price has exploded over the past week,
breaking past the $600 barrier and gaining on its ratio against its bigger, older and
slower brother BTC, which finally broke through the important $100,000 barrier.
This price explosion coincided with the final news of the day.

(05:16):
Gary Gensler, chair of the US Security and Exchange Commission's replacement, has been
announced.
Cryptocurrency advocate Paul Atkins will be taking over the role in January 2025, with
Trump commenting on him being a proven leader for common sense regulation.
With Gary out and Paul in, there are no reasons to suggest why this cryptocurrency ball run

(05:40):
isn't going to continue well into 2025 and beyond.
Stay up to date with all the latest BCH insights and news by following the Bitcoin Cash Foundation
on Twitter.
That was the news.
Great.
I see Kalin is there.
Let's get you on.
Invite to co-host.
Good.
So without any further ado, let's welcome Kalin Kulianu and Kalisti onto the mic.

(06:05):
Hi guys, and welcome to Finnish and Friends.
Kalin, get up here, bro.
I don't know, but that's some pretty incredible news.
I'm pretty excited as a US citizen myself to hear about all of the really pro crypto changes

(06:28):
that are coming through.
I know Trump was joking around at the Nashville conference that he was going to fire Gary
Gensler, but I guess he's actually pulling through for that.
So maybe if he's actually being for real, then maybe we'll also see Free Ross on day
one actually come to fruition as well.
Yeah, to be honest, I'm betting quite highly that if he's not released on day one, it will

(06:54):
be quite soon.
I think that there is a whole wave, I think in the very first year, at the very least,
of positive energy towards cryptocurrency and cryptocurrency advocates and people that
were dealing with voluntary trade such as Ross.
So I think he's going to be free pretty soon, which is a great thing.
Kalin, I see you've got the mic.
Can you hear us?

(07:15):
Can you hear me?
Great to have you.
It's like spitting out on me.
It's not telling me who's talking, but it's fine.
I don't know.
Yeah, Twitter, I mean, it was worth 40 billion, I think, if I remember correctly, when Elon
Musk bought it.
And despite that huge amount of value, getting space is bug free has been a challenge before

(07:35):
the buy and after.
So yeah, it's notorious for wigging out.
But glad you're there.
Just before we go sort of deeper into all the topics that I'm not sure if you heard
all the news, but there's so much that's going on in BCH, as we're aware.
For everyone that's listening, maybe you could both just give a little bit of an introduction
about who you are, what you're doing in the space.

(07:58):
Okay, should I go first?
Sure.
All right.
My name is Kalin Kulianu.
I'm a developer for Bitcoin Cash.
I mostly work on BCH and Bitcoin Cash node, and I also developed this middleware software
called Fulcrum.
And I also work on the Electron Cash wallet.

(08:19):
I am Kalisti.
I am the lead developer for the Saleem wallet.
Also just general kind of BCH advocate.
And like Zeyn just said, I'm out here with the Twitter troll.
And so hopefully that's having some impact.
I think it has.
We love it.
I mean, you say Twitter trolling, and I think that that underplays actually what you're

(08:43):
doing because as I've called you a whip battler, you're going out there, you're being kind
of cheeky, you're being kind of brave, and you're saying, hey, come on, attack me or
attack BCH.
Let's go through this.
And being able to just sort of counterattack all of the stuff that's coming towards you
with great skills.
So I think you're doing a great job on the scene there and have quite a lot of respect

(09:07):
from several communities in the crypto world.
So yeah, I think the way that you're handling those conversations with your sort of poise
and confidence, but without coming across as arrogant, to be honest, I think that's
the pinnacle right there of Bitcoin Cash community.
Well, you know, those are really nice words.
I appreciate that, man, because it gets kind of exhausting sometimes, you know, but it's

(09:30):
been like years of like, I guess, especially coming from the BTC people, like, just they're
always just trying to poop on us like a lot.
And it's really nice to see nowadays, really, that's not the case.
Like there's just not much more to say.
You know, how many times can you post, have fun staying poor in a price chart before it

(09:50):
just like doesn't have any effect anymore when I can literally just go in, link to tweets
that I made years ago and be like, yeah.
So I already debunked this argument.
So you could try again, I guess.
Yeah, but it's true.
I mean, you know, that is the first thing that they're coming back to.

(10:11):
And I really love the responses that are given now, much less defensive.
And the reality is, BCH is worth not very much compared to BTC is currently at 0.0062
BTC.
But that's risen tremendously recently.
And if you look into the long term trend, it does seem to have bucked the trend here.

(10:34):
And so I can personally say that I have converted all of my BTC now into BCH.
You know, I saw it always at the hedge.
But I now see, I made the decision actually holding BTC is too dangerous at this point.
So let's see how that pans out.

(10:54):
But I think the price talk is not really that interesting anymore, because it's not really
the reality from what we're experiencing.
And whoever's holding BCH and has bought BCH over the past three years now is looking pretty
rosy.
You know, I really wonder if hitting the 100,000 price target for BTC, if that's got some people

(11:16):
thinking about, all right, we hit the goal.
Like, what now?
What else is out there?
I wonder if any of those people are going to maybe take a look at BCH.
I mean, I know at least one person in my local community, although he was already kind of
a closet BCHer to begin with, but he switched his profile picture from red laser eyes to
green glasses after 100k.

(11:39):
So you know, maybe we'll start seeing more of that.
I think we're going to see a lot more of that, to be honest, because if you look at the BTC
community, from what I can see, it's 99% its numbers go up.
The few developers that are still there, that I know of a few people that are sort of active,

(11:59):
and I've heard actually from several that they have a plan to sell out at a certain
price.
But then what comes next?
That's the question.
And I think that as long as BCH keeps on making the strides that it's done, keeps with this
positive community momentum going forward.
And as we're seeing, there is a growth of businesses that are actually in the BCH space,
especially now when thinking of Rifton Labs, it's another one that's, you know, of a similar

(12:22):
sort of scope and size to Emergent Coding.
Emergent Coding.
Oh, I've got a...
Not Emergent Coding.
Who is it?
BCH Bulls.
Oh, General Protocols.
I think of Emerging, yes.
General Protocols!
Yeah.
Yeah.
General Protocols.
And so we're seeing a lot of stuff that's going on, and I think as long as BCH stays

(12:43):
on this trajectory, then there's a lot of reasons for people who are holding a lot of
BTC to go, hang on a minute, you know, how much more legs have this got in this coin?
You know, people are holding it purely because the numbers go up.
And when that's not the case, the percentage relative to other coins are more attractive,
more usable, have more utility, which of course BCH ticks all of those boxes.

(13:04):
It is a high utility coin.
It can be used as money and is used as money.
And I think that there's a good chance that we'll see some money flowing from BTC to BCH.
So we've got quite a few topics to jump into today.
What I'd love to do is to think about the May 2025 upgrades.
So we've got the big-inch virtual machines limits and arithmetic upgrade.

(13:28):
And I'd love just to hear from both of you.
What does this mean?
You're both wallet developers.
You both have an understanding of what this enables.
Also, of course, with the node, Kalin, maybe we could start with you.
What does this all mean?
What does it bring to Bitcoin Cash and why are you excited about the May 2025 upgrade?
Oh, man, where to start?

(13:50):
It really is very exciting.
Well, so I don't know if many people know this, but the original Bitcoin that Satoshi
wrote, it didn't have any limits.
It didn't even have arithmetic limits.
You had big ins from the beginning.
The dream of Satoshi was you can just do anything in a smart contract.

(14:12):
Yeah, so we're going back to that a little bit, but with engineering it properly.
The reason why the limits were added was because there were denial of service attacks.
So anyway, maybe I should step back for a second.
Yeah, so like-
That's really interesting.
That's great.
Because basically all we're doing is bringing back this amazing idea that was, or it sort

(14:33):
of highlights the Bitcoin when it came out, was really fantastic.
It was really well engineered, really well thought out, but it was actually restricted
to ensure that it was stable at that point, to ensure that it couldn't be attacked by,
as you say, denial of service.
And now we've got to the stage where we can do this in a safe way and go back to that
amazing engineering thing.

(14:54):
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of like an emergency fix, like I think in 2010, when Gavin Andresen
started joining and developing, where he was asking Satoshi a bunch of questions, hey,
isn't this exploitable?
What do we do?
And then so they sort of emergency patched Bitcoin to have limits.
Initially they reduced the integer size and then they went down to like 32-bit integers,
for instance, and they did a bunch of other stuff.

(15:15):
But maybe I should take a step back and describe what, maybe for just more casual people, what
we're talking about.
When you're sending Bitcoin, you're basically telling the consensus layer to evaluate these
scripts.
They're called locking scripts and unlocking scripts.
When you're sending money, you're sort of specifying, this is how this money is going

(15:36):
to be unlocked.
And then later on when someone spends it, they have to satisfy those conditions.
I mean, this is sort of a high level view.
So underneath it all, Bitcoin is using this sort of programming language, like a fourth
leg language, like Bitcoin script.
And so that's how sort of just decisions are made about whether a transaction is valid
or invalid.
And because it's a language, you can do smart contracts with it.

(15:58):
And so we've expanded, the language has been expanded, like the engine running the language
has been expanded to allow for more generous limits to what the smart contract can do in
terms of execution costs.
Because before there was very constrained, like you could only have 201 opcodes and integers
or 64 bid, and you could only manipulate data that was up to 520 bytes long and stuff like

(16:21):
this.
So this has been modified.
And the upgrade in May 2025, the contracts, you could write more sophisticated contracts
on Bitcoin cash that don't have all of these limits that are so constrained.
And we did it in a smart way.
We engineered it so that you can't, like the worst case stuff you can do is better than
before.
And the good stuff, we sort of optimize it for the good stuff.

(16:43):
So it shouldn't be, you know, like basically, Satoshi, I think if he had time, he would
have done something like this.
He just didn't have time to work on it.
So he just set up these limits really quickly in 2010 and never touched it after that.
So we sort of went back and finished his work, I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, and when you think about what he achieved in such a period of time, the fact that it
wasn't all complete makes a lot of sense, right?

(17:04):
Because as I understand Bitcoin, the development started in 2008, 2009, it was released, you
know, a very short period of time to release something that was so earth shatteringly paradigm
shifting for the planet.
And the fact that, yeah, there was some stuff that needed to be sorted out and cleaned up
makes a lot of sense.
And it's pretty logical.
What I understand is that by, you know, increasing the numbers with big ints, it allows for high

(17:31):
precision arithmetic for smart contracts cryptography.
So it would mean that we could have a sort of monero like privacy, an optional privacy
on BCH.
Is that correct?
And what are your thoughts on that?
I think that is correct.
Although I'm not like, I'm a really good developer, but I'm not like a super cryptographer.
But I understand that one of the things you need to do when you're doing cryptography

(17:53):
is work with extremely large integers and do basic operations on them.
So now that you can work with larger than 64 bit integers, you know, you can work with
two kilobyte integers or whatever.
Yeah, you should be able to do cryptographic ops like in the scripting language of Bitcoin.
And then I guess that theoretically means you can do privacy stuff.
I mean, you could do more advanced cryptography just within a smart contract.

(18:16):
But I don't know the details of that because I'm not really a cryptographer.
I'm more of just the C++ developer that knows that engineer stuff.
But I do understand that.
Just the C++ developer.
Yeah, I do understand that.
And you know, before I was actually worried about talking about this because of that.
But now that with the tornado, that cache thing where they said you can't just you can't
arrest people for writing officers.
So I'm a little more relaxed.
But as far as I understand it, I want to just confirm it that yes, we should be able to

(18:38):
get like privacy stuff on chain, like just natively in the contracts, you know, the contracts
would be huge, like you're going to have like these giant scripts.
But you know, it's not going to be as efficient as cache fusion.
But you should theoretically be able to do something like that on chain, like in a more
decentralized manner, just using cryptography tricks and
well, you know, to the point about the massive scripts, right?

(19:01):
I mean, there are still more VM improvements that are in the pipeline, especially Jason
Dresner, who is well known as one of the pioneers of the cash tokens chip, as well as this upcoming
VM limits begins chip.
He's now going to be working on being able to add loops to the script, as well as a way

(19:21):
to define functions within script using a proposed op eval.
So that might be able to help make those scripts a lot more efficient.
And we can implement.
Yeah, but it's weird.
It's like a cache 22 there.
Because actually, if you have a giant script, you're actually credited more execution time,
because the execution time you're given to execute is like based on the size of the input.

(19:43):
So it's sort of a cache 22.
So yeah, if you have, you know, because what happens is if you have something like loops
and you have eval, like some of this stuff might end up paradoxically, it makes just
the script more compact.
It's like a compression, because, you know, if you can loop, you just jump back, you don't
have to like copy paste, you don't have to enroll the loop.
So it's a paradox there.
It's weird, right?
It's like, yeah, if you have these higher level language constructs, just the way the

(20:06):
whole the whole costing of the VM works, it's based on bite size.
So it's like a paradox.
You're better off unrolling a loop, you know, if you want to do more expensive computation,
because then you get credited more time.
I guess we'll leave the opcode that lets you prefix more fake bytes, the script to buy that
execution time, because that way.
I guess you can add the bytes without actually adding them and then still pay the fee to

(20:29):
the miners so that you can buy that computation time.
So just all the stuff that's in the works right now, that builds on what we've done
now and hopefully we see it in the next year or two.
Right.
I mean, so my understanding with the one, the eval one is actually more interesting,
because then you can sort of just evaluate arbitrary data, which is kind of cool.
But the loop one, I don't think is going to help in terms of, you know, it's just a compression

(20:49):
loop is just a compression.
Like you don't, you know, rather than having like five kilobytes script, it might be two
kilobytes because you could loop.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Cool stuff is coming.
I agree.
Yeah.
But regardless, I'm just really excited for this upgrade because of really, it just adds
a whole lot of power to our script engine.
It really increases the possibilities of what we can do with it.
It makes existing use cases better through the efficiency that we get.

(21:11):
And then it does it all without really increasing the risk of say like the denial of service
vectors that you were talking about earlier.
The whole reason those limits were in place to begin with is to make sure that one huge
transaction that does all of this computation doesn't blow up the whole network.
Yeah.
And we characterize that.
We simulate it.
We figured out what the most expensive possible transaction is with current consensus rules.

(21:33):
And that's just one that does a lot of hashing ops because hashing ends up being expensive
just if you keep doing it.
So we basically like, you know, we were very careful.
Like, you know, like the worst case thing is like half as expensive now.
The worst case thing you could most pathologically do, which would require minor like minor,
like the minor to minor pathological transaction.
Like that's half as expensive.
Like we constrain that by 50 percent.

(21:55):
And then we liberalize some of this, you know, just the normal stuff that people would want
to do.
Like we sort of what I'm trying to say is we understand we're doing like we simulated.
You know, there's like 10,000 different transactions we tried and like the worst case.
And yeah, I mean, like basically it's just I think Satoshi would have done this if he
could have just he didn't have time.
I mean, he was like he was juggling like 15 plays at once.
You know, it's an interesting thing you mentioned there because, you know, this is something

(22:16):
that I know that I've seen.
This is an argument from BTC so that, you know, they're used to ossification and not
making any changes.
And BCH has this schedule every year of, you know, basically doing a hard fork and potentially,
at the very least, and innovating with this.
But there's also, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people here that use BCH that love

(22:39):
BCH.
We're very happy to hear that.
That, you know, these these changes don't come about quickly.
There's a process with the chip process to make sure that this is incredibly well tested
beforehand before it's even, you know, signaled to go in, whereas then when it has approval
in November, it doesn't even get locked in until six months later.

(23:00):
So there's still plenty of time to be testing this and basically for everyone to get in
their chips in order and to make sure that everything's working as intended when it actually
goes live the following May.
So comforting to hear.

(23:22):
My question for you both.
So I hear a lot there from a developer's perspective and it sounds really interesting.
But thinking bringing it back to the end user, what do you think this upgrade will allow?
What will the end user experience or could experience through this that is going to benefit
them that's going to make their life better or make the user interface or the user experience
of Bitcoin Cash better?

(23:44):
My intuition about it is and I'm not an expert on this because I'm so deep in the woods here
with work I do.
But so when the backend when the backend engine is more robust and more like offers more features
and more generous execution and what ends up happening is the tooling built on top of it.
Like there's this cash script system for writing contracts.
The tooling on top of it then just is freer to do stuff.

(24:08):
Right now the tooling is very constrained by the current VM limits.
It isn't very generous what you get for execution.
And so it's just like kind of discouraging.
If you're a developer working on a tooling, you have to always worry about this 201 opcode
thing and these meager push sizes.
I think what happens is if the background engine, if the fundamentals of it are just
solid and inspiring where it starts to liberate possibilities and then the tooling on top

(24:32):
of it gets better and then what ends up happening for the end user is just like better websites
are built, better smart contracts, better DEXs, more interesting like smart contract
use cases for VCHRIs.
Sort of the end user ends up seeing this whole ecosystem start to bubble up and pop up because
the developer tools are really good and developers are inspired to build because the backend
engine is really good.

(24:52):
So I mean, there's all layers on top of each other, but I'm working in the core like sort
of in the woods.
So it's hard for me to answer.
I think Khaleesi is probably better at answering this question than I am.
But this is just sort of my intuition about it that if your fundamentals are good, then
just everything on top of it starts to be better because everyone's just inspired because
you just have a better execution engine.
You have more possibilities.
They are open to you.

(25:12):
Just you can realize more.
So yeah.
I mean, the number one possibility that I'm personally excited for is the potential for
the privacy tech that we can do on chain because like Khaleesi was saying earlier, we do need
to be able to operate on absolutely massive numbers with hundreds or thousands of digits.

(25:33):
So being able to potentially implement privacy tools on the transaction layer.
So like if I can just say it makes a lean wallet just generate a private transaction,
like a shielded transaction, maybe kind of like Zcash, I think that's like the number
one thing that I'm looking forward to.
But there are other possibilities like more efficient like Dex contract type scripts,

(25:56):
like Cauldron will probably benefit from it.
And like the experimental JetX would probably benefit from it.
And so it's just one of those things that entices new developers into the ecosystem,
giving them better tools, which will allow them to make better end user products.
So this really is an update for the devs, right?
End users aren't really going to see the benefits from this until devs start playing with it.

(26:18):
Yeah, that's a really valid point.
And I've seen, you know, as a reminder to everyone out there, if you check out BCH Ortis,
he was doing some comparisons of the sort of length of script and, you know, as it was
before the upgrade, a very long piece of script after the upgrade, much more simple, much
easier to follow, much more efficient.

(26:40):
So that, you know, making it easier for developers and making it, you know, not just easier,
but also increasing the capabilities is just going to unleash what's possible.
Java, I'm not sure how to pronounce the name.
I see your hands up.
You're welcome to speak.
Okay, maybe Java is not there anymore.

(27:06):
Yes.
So, yeah, so we mentioned that one of the things that it does or could enable is the privacy.
And this is something I understand.
So, Kalin, you mentioned about there that, yeah, there was a bit of concern, I understand,
from developers, I saw this from also from Tom Zander about, hey, we should be careful
about shouting about, you know, such privacy functionalities, because it might bring down

(27:32):
the gaze, you know, the powers that be on to BCH.
So, you know, it seems your position there changed a little bit based on the news about
the tornado cash.
You know, what do you think the risk, you know, how much risk do you see that with privacy,
optional privacy on Bitcoin Cash?
Yeah, I mean, so the thing is, I'm really still afraid to talk about it, to be honest,

(27:52):
but it was encouraging to see that the tornado cash people got sort of like the court precedent
was set.
But, you know, like, if I talk about it too much, and then like, you know, five years
or three years, Trump gets assassinated, doesn't get take office.
I don't know.
Like, yeah, I mean, that's what I hear.
People tell me that, you know, you can do it, you're gonna be able to do like super

(28:13):
private transactions because of cryptography magic.
That's what I hear, you know, I don't really know much about it.
That's my official position right now.
Okay, Khaleesi, what do you think?
I mean, okay, so I'm a very vibes based kind of person.
And my intuition is generally pretty good.
And I'm definitely feeling emboldened by the tornado cash news, and to some degree also

(28:36):
by Trump's promises to the crypto world.
And kind of seeing those things already start to come to fruition, I am definitely feeling
a lot better about the potential enforcement front.
I mean, yeah, we have plenty of instances in U.S. history where there has been government
overreach.
You've got the FBI having standoffs with people who are trying to assert their rights.

(28:59):
And you know, whether those people were in the right or not, it is still something that's
really scary.
And so, you know, as somebody who is developing in the crypto world, there's always that underlying
fear, like I'm basically fully doxed, right?
So, you know, the FBI could just knock on my door one day if I did something wrong or
that they didn't like.

(29:20):
And then we also have to look at other cases like, you know, Roger Veer or like Ross, you
know, Julian Assange, all of these other people who have stood up to big government and have,
you know, really eaten crap for it, right?
So, I mean, Roger is still in jail and his lawyers are trying to do their best to get
him out.
But we don't really know.
But on the other hand, if we don't do these things, if we aren't the pioneers to actually

(29:44):
take this into our own hands and make it a reality, who was it?
Phil Zimmerman, who was able to get crypto tech outside of the U.S. by finding some loophole
and export laws, he like made a script that was small enough to append to an email signature.
So now RSA is like proliferated across the world kind of thing.
So it's like, you know, if we don't actually do that building, if we don't actually pioneer

(30:08):
this technology, they just win by default and we can't let that happen.
And to me personally, civil disobedience is one of the pillars of American society.
So if we're not taking those risks, then what are we?
Oh, yeah, man, I totally agree with you.
You got the right attitude about it.
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
Yeah, sorry, Khaled, do you want to answer that?
The other thing to worry about, I mean, maybe I'm just being too cautious.
And you're right, Khaleesi, like the way to do it is just not to care about the regulators.

(30:34):
And then by the time they show up, it's too late if it's too big with us.
You know, if they could right now, they'd wave a magic wand and make crypto disappear
maybe, but they can't because it would piss off so many people.
So that is true.
One thing I'm worried about is sort of the BTC, although they don't seem as threatening,
one thing that could happen is like, oh, Bitcoin Cash is building privacy stuff.
And then like they do all this FUD, like, oh, it's like Zcash, oh, it's like Monero.

(30:56):
And they do all this FUD.
What's wrong with Zcash and Monero?
Like in actuality, nothing happened.
Come up with a technical group.
You know, Monero, for instance, like is banned on a lot of exchanges and it took a hit to
its price.
I mean, we can just not care about that.
You know, that's fair enough.
I don't know.
I sort of don't want to show up too much until we get closer to the date, but I don't know.
You're probably right.
We should just not give a crap and just be ourselves and just be free.
What I think is, I think you make a good point here and the BTC is they use everything they

(31:19):
can to try and squash BCH from what I've seen.
And I've got quite some evidence on this.
It's not just some conspiracy theory.
It was also when doing the conference in Tsikitsen, Davis, where there was, you know, looking
into making Bitcoin Cash legal currency there, there was quite a lot of shadowy movements
coming from the some prominent BTC people.
So that's definitely a valid concern.

(31:39):
What I would say is, is that whenever it comes out, that will still be a concern.
If they want to hurt us, they can try.
So I'm not, I'm not really too worried about that.
But I'm thinking about the spooks, I don't know if anyone's seen this in the news, but
I read this today that the FBI has been warning citizens in America to stop sending text between
Android and Apple devices because people, they can see now that the Chinese government

(32:03):
have been spying on this.
They're actually advising to use encrypted channels such as WhatsApp or Session even,
so that, so that you know, we're not leaking out all this information to foreign governments.
So it's quite funny, you know, the FBI themselves are encouraging its citizens to use encrypted
tools.
You know, maybe, maybe that's because they know they've got the back doors into those

(32:26):
particular tools, could also be that.
But the official stance is, hey, encrypted is good.
We should be, we should be able to have conversations in a private manner.
And I, you know, I think what Kielissey said is absolutely a nail on the head.
If we can't talk about, you know, privacy being a right, and people should have the
right to be able to communicate privately, whether that's with money, finances, whether

(32:48):
it's just, you know, saying hello and whatever standard communication.
And that has got nothing to do with, you know, criminal energy where there's, where there's
a victim or helping or assisting that.
So and if we don't sort of be pioneers in that and be brave, and of course you have
to do some risk management there and don't do anything too silly that's going to get
you thrown in jail because that doesn't help anyone.

(33:09):
But I think, you know, optional privacy and talking about that and working on that, I
see the risks as being very, very limited.
And you know, just taking the tornado cash, for example, the reason why that this person
was arrested was because he was accepting money.
And this is where it gets murky when it's just the code itself.

(33:31):
This isn't the, this isn't what's illegal.
But it was, they used that, the fact that he was profiting of this, profiting of money
laundering.
And they, you know, everyone has to be careful.
But when it just comes to the code itself, I see no risks or very little risks, better
said in this.
But as we can see with the current mood with the legal system against tornado cash and

(33:54):
the impact here is that we have less to worry about today than we did a couple of weeks
ago.
So I'm excited by this.
So I really think Bitcoin Cash already offers great privacy with cash fusion, but it's something
that we shouldn't sleep on.
With the use of AI and chain analysis, I'm pretty sure that most security mechanisms

(34:14):
today won't be good enough for five years or 10 years in the future.
And so making sure that we're equipped for that, I think is a nice move, is a good move.
So Khaleesi, I'm glad you've got that, got that bravery.
We can encourage the other people to be, you know, in the community to be brave, such as
Caroline and Tom and the rest.
Well, without being stupid, without taking unnecessary risk.

(34:36):
Well, you know, I've got also, you know, just just a couple of thoughts on that, too, because
on one hand, we got to look at the tornado cash dev.
And there's also another example of the samurai wallet devs on the BTC side also got arrested
for the same reason, because they were charging a fee to use their Whirlpool service.
Right.
So, for instance, I think if our cash fusion server providers were also, you know, getting

(34:59):
some of that as revenue or as fee, they might also be in legal trouble.
And then on top of that, we have to consider, well, privacy isn't just for individual people.
It's for businesses, too.
And as BCH being a very commerce focused chain, as well as a chain that's focused on individual
use, we have to consider that business privacy is actually paramount, right?

(35:21):
Corporate espionage is very real.
And so I don't necessarily want the general public to know how my business is spending
money, let alone do I want competing businesses to know how I'm spending my money, who that
money is going to, et cetera.
And I'm sure that local, state and federal governments have use for their own privacy
as well.
And I would prefer that the government is fully audible and, you know, fully transparent.

(35:45):
But you know, does the Pentagon, for instance, want China to know where their military spending
is going?
Oh, yeah, you just secured this $2 billion contract to Lockheed Martin or something,
right?
Like, what are you developing?
It's like any bit of information that is revealed can impact your business negatively.
And especially when it's something very high stakes like warfare, right?

(36:06):
So I mean, that's just a really extreme example.
But I mean, even something more benign myself, you know, as a software company, right?
I might not want to reveal how my money is spent if I have like some kind of new up and
coming tech that I need to make some partnerships for.
Like, I don't want my competitors necessarily to be able to get that advantage ahead of
me.

(36:26):
And so that's where I see privacy as a huge benefit.
It's not just for individuals.
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
So, I mean, with all that, I just I just really feel like the risk of, you know, nefarious,
shadowy things happening for us developing this technology is lower as time goes on and

(36:49):
as it's more developed.
And as we I just was also just thinking about the fact that BCH has already got the ETFs.
We've been one of the the quote unquote big four that's always mentioned in the traditional
finance world all the time.
Right.
So BTC, Ethereum, BCH and Litecoin.
So with that, I just really feel like even if we did create these technologies, it's

(37:16):
like just the risk isn't really as palpable as time goes on.
You know, there was like the sabotage and St. Kitts and you know, there's there's other
stuff I just linked again.
And Roger, right.
Or I can look at Aaron Schwartz, you know, one of my personal heroes.
But, you know, they all of those people did other things to land them in hot water.

(37:36):
Now, whether Roger's tax evasion case is like legit or whatever, it doesn't it's kind of
besides the point here.
But the point being that it's not just one thing that was drawing aggro from from the
federal agencies.
Right.
So I think as long as we're approaching it in a benign way and the way that we really
have been, we're not going out here like, yeah, what's up, guys?

(37:57):
We're Monero and we're only used on the dark market.
Like, come buy our ghost guns, bro.
Come at me.
Right.
We're not doing that.
Right.
We actually want to use legitimate use cases on top of that.
Yeah.
I mean, so it'll be like plausible deniability with BCH because it's not like a first like
the privacy isn't like on chain like the way even Litecoin has like this MWeb stuff or
like Monero.

(38:18):
We know it's all private by default.
So like, yeah, it'll be like just, you know, if you want to do privacy, you can.
But like, it's not going to be it's not going to be overly advertised.
So which is good, because if you care about the mainstream finance douchebags doing ETFs,
then sort of that it's safe for them.
You know, I think I don't know.
I don't really know.
But that's what that feels like to me.
Yeah, I think you make a good point.

(38:40):
And this is where it is a huge difference.
Like Litecoin was also had a lot of troubles with once the privacy was in the Mimble was
turned on, Monero was delisted from most exchanges.
So having always on privacy in that regard is definitely not the way forward.

(39:01):
I think especially, you know, one of the things I love about Bitcoin Cash is it's so easy
to account for all of the coins.
And that's, you know, Kylis, you mentioned earlier is about with the government, you
know, if we think about the future where Bitcoin Cash is used everywhere, having governments
being very completely transparent to their spending and at least I can't think of anything

(39:24):
better.
But then with an optional sort of really highly grade privacy for individual users, I think
is the way forward.
And as you say, not putting that bell on too hard about the things that can be used for
such a different Monero.
Just moving away a little bit, talking to like a slightly different topic.

(39:46):
You're both developers behind popular BCH wallets.
We've got Electron Cash, we've got Saleen.
I just would love to ask, you know, think of your opinion there.
What do you think is the current state of BCH user experience?
And how do your wallets sort of have the edge or, you know, what is it that they offer to
help with that experience?

(40:06):
I'd love to hear from you both there.
So maybe Kylis, I'd love to hear a little bit about Saleen.
What are you doing differently and how are you making that user experience the best possible?
So I guess I'll just start with the whole impetus behind Jeremy and I, when we developed
Saleen.
We both kind of had the idea at around the same time.

(40:28):
We were looking at the overall wallet ecosystem going like, man, it would be really great
if there was a wallet that was open source, super user friendly, and just like, you know,
had a good interface and had all the features that we actually want out of say like Electron
Cash, which I would say is one of the most fully featured wallets out there.
That's like the de facto power user wallet, I would say.

(40:49):
But back then, when we started the project, it was Bitcoin.com that was probably the most
popular user focused mobile wallet.
And Bitcoin.com being closed source and also sunsetting a lot of their services in that
time period, especially the BCH catering services.
We just saw that as like a big red flag as far as community longevity.

(41:12):
And we just decided, OK, well, let's just make that killer wallet that's got really
good UX, really good onboarding experience and is open source, which was really the killer
thing was that it's open source.
Anybody needs to be able to open up this wallet and know that we're not going to rug pull
you.
So I think the wallet ecosystem in general for BCH looks pretty good right now.
Like we've got five major wallets.

(41:34):
They all kind of fill a specific niche in the community, with Celine being probably
the best for newcomers and onboarding.
You've got Cashnize really leading the DeFi front.
Petaca does DeFi, but they're also going really hard on merchant adoption in the Philippines
with their point of sale software as well.
And they have a map as well that's linked to that payment software.
And we want to do something similar, too, but they're just doing a really great job

(41:56):
and we're going to probably integrate with them.
And then you've got Zapit focused on their reward token, although they are a multi-coin
wallet.
And then, which am I forgetting?
EC, right?
Power user wallet, right?
So I think everyone is really serving those.
Oh, sorry, Flowy as well is also like a user focus while he kind of just does stuff, I

(42:18):
guess.
I don't know if there's like a specific focus, but it's a decent wallet.
But yeah, I think the overall ecosystem is looking pretty healthy.
I think we've all taken a lot of notes on what does make a good user experience, because
now you can see Celine kind of pioneered the whole onboarding flow where your QR code is
displayed immediately.
You don't got to go through the whole like verify your seed phrase for your zero balance

(42:41):
wallet.
Like nobody cares about that.
If I'm trying to explain BCH to somebody in a bar in like two minutes flat, like Celine
is going to be my go-to.
Because other wallets are going to have me have to explain all of this other stuff before
I can even get to the point, which is I want to send you a transaction instantly.
So now Flowy does that, Cache and Ize does that.
And so I just think that we're all just kind of learning from each other, which is also

(43:05):
really cool to see.
And one of my favorite things about BCH is the fact that we can both collaborate and
compete at the same time.
And yeah, I just think that there's a lot more to do definitely, especially with Celine.
We launched on the day that Cache tokens was integrated into the protocol officially, and
we still don't have Cache tokens support.
So that's actually next on the to-do list.

(43:27):
But it's just funny because that was last year's upgrade or was it the year before?
I don't remember.
It was 2023.
Yeah, 23 May.
Yeah, 23.
It was last year.
But it feels like several years ago because so much has happened since then.
But I'd love to see Celine supporting Cache tokens because this is a lot of fun right

(43:48):
now.
You can see the scene is exploding.
And now, of course, what's the reality of Cache tokens so far?
Like, this is amazing technology that enables all kinds of smart contracts on BCH.
What we're seeing is meme tokens mostly.
But still, it's generating a little bit of buzz there and it's growing.
So I would love to see that.
But yeah, thanks for your insights there, Khaleesi.

(44:09):
And for those listening, Celine Wallet is really my wallet of choice for payments because
it's quick, it's efficient.
I know the team, very trustworthy.
And I actually use...
Sorry, I like how you talk a little bit about Electron.

(44:30):
Electron Cache on the computer because it supports really advanced functionality and
it has Cache Fusion, of course.
So that's really enjoyable.
And I use Paytaka for the Cache token stuff because I think that's right now the full
fat wallet.
It's got its flaws too for normal dumb payments, I would say.
I prefer Celine.

(44:51):
And this is amazing, right?
Because it really was the case that for the phone just a couple of years ago, it was really
Bitcoin.com.
That was it.
And now there's just so much choice and better alternatives.
So it's great to see.
So Kalin, what about yourself?
How do you see the state of the user experience?
And we've been thinking about Electron Cache and what's your edge there?

(45:14):
I mean, I'm just amazed at the level of the wallets now, just the quality.
Like Kalisti, for instance, has really good intuition about user experience and just high
quality flowing software.
And not only him.
I'm really humbled by just watching everybody's wallets, the wallets that are coming out now.
I just find them amazingly high quality and just easy to use for normal people and for

(45:35):
pro users alike.
I don't think we've ever been in this good a position as far as user experience and wallets
go.
And I've been in Bitcoin Cache since the beginning, since 2017.
And that's always been one of the frustrations, going like in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, just
the wallet stuff.
And then of course, Bitcoin.com worked.
And that was the easy one to use.

(45:56):
And I guess in a sense, it's good that it's sort of stopping maintained because it forced
us to step up.
That's kind of the good thing.
But yeah, I mean, with Electron Cache, it's definitely just a power user wallet.
If you really just want to see the details of what's really going on behind the scene,
you would use Electron Cache on desktop.
I wouldn't recommend it for new users.
I would recommend Selene, definitely.
And if you're doing token smart contract stuff, maybe pay Taka because it's got the web integration.

(46:20):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really amazed.
I just I can't even believe how nice it is.
And it's starting to look as good as the Ethereum stuff for the cash token stuff like in the
web integration.
It's a dream, man.
I never thought it would be this good.
It's good to see.
Really, really, really.
Much praise to everybody in the ecosystem that's working on wallets.
It's good stuff.
It's moved on so quickly.

(46:40):
So we've wallet connect now so you can connect your pay Taka wallet, your Zapit wallet, also
cash and I's web wallet.
You can connect that to what's it called?
Cash Studio.
And you can go on and you can create your meme coins.
You can create your NFTs.
It's really easy.
You can go on to Cauldron Dex and you can connect via wallet connect and you can easily

(47:05):
trade BCH or your tokens.
And this is this sort of easy to use interface even with flip started now.
So with fund me, you can just connect that up using wallet connect as well.
It makes it just all so much easier and effortless to use that ecosystem.
And when I think about the size of BCH, how many people are in there?

(47:27):
The market cap relative to the big brother BTC.
And then I look at all of the wallets, all of the infrastructure that's being built and
has been built.
It's amazing.
There's a lot of dedicated and passionate people in this community that are working
very hard to make the best user experience of using this great currency.
You know, on wallet connect, I think we really have to give a huge shout out to Jim Hamill

(47:52):
because he's really doing this like I wouldn't know what to call it because when I say protocol
dev, I mean like BCHN and like the Bitcoin cash protocol.
Right.
But he's developing protocols on top of the protocol.
He's developing like payment protocols.
He's developing the wallet connect protocol.
These are things that are agnostic to all of the wallets that we can integrate to create

(48:12):
this kind of interoperability.
And I'm really excited for that.
Ever since he announced cash connect, which is formerly known as cash RPC, and we're starting
to see that built into the wallets like cash and I pay Taca and seeing the power there.
Like fund me dot cash is really cool.
I didn't I didn't realize that you could just wallet connect and fund something that's so

(48:33):
much easier than flip starter actually like assuming that your wallet supports cash connect
or I guess it's wallet connect still.
But yeah, I don't know.
I just I just really wanted to give a shout out to Jim because he also helped us a lot
with Celine, especially very recently.
He integrated the cash stamp support where we can we can sweep private keys now.

(48:57):
And that was just huge.
And also he helped us with the payment protocol stuff, the the bit 70 payment protocol.
So now we can use like bit pay invoices and the like.
So just I just wanted to give a shout out to him because he's just doing really great
behind the scenes work and doesn't get enough credit for it.
Yeah, great.
So massive shout out to Jim Hamill and you know, and still very active.

(49:20):
So wallet connect is fantastic.
It's such an improvement for user experience, but it's not without its flaws.
It's still built on the sort of Ethereum one address mechanism, which means all of the
tokens will be and your BCH will be stored on one address when you interact with it.
Otherwise, it sort of it doesn't work.
And Jim has set up a cash connect telegram group where, you know, to work and keep everyone

(49:43):
updated on the work towards cash connect where it's, you know, looking at the yeah, not not
just a single address and more based more appropriate for the UTXO model.
So yeah, good call out.
And thank you, Jim, for all of your work.
You're such an asset.

(50:04):
So Kalin, I know one of the topics that interests you we discussed was the work done by core
developers on BTC regarding UTXO FastSync.
So maybe you could talk a little bit about that.
So what is FastSync and what is it about the topic where you think BCH can learn from the
developers there over at core?

(50:25):
Oh, yeah, I was surprised.
I was looking at their code base recently.
I haven't haven't looked at it for a few months.
They have.
Yeah.
So what is FastSync?
I mean, I should I should take a step back.
So to immediately like process transactions, you basically have to know where the money
is like who has money.
I mean, you know, the blockchain is like a giant ledger conceptually.

(50:46):
So you need and that's called the UTXO set.
It's just the ledger of where all the coins are, where coins exist and where they are,
how to spend them.
So that's basically like to immediately just transact on the network.
You need to know that.
And so what you normally do is you if you're syncing up a node, it just plays back history
from the beginning of time.

(51:06):
And then it arrives at the current ledger.
And that's the current UTXO set, as it's called.
UTXO stands for unspent transaction output.
So that's the UTXO set.
And that's and that's sort of if you want to just like hit the network quickly, start
you know, if you want to just start mining right now, you don't really care about all
of the history.
You don't really care about playing back history.
You sort of just want to know what the current ledger is.

(51:29):
And that's sort of that's a challenge because sort of history doesn't really scale because
you know, if you want if you want to network, there's like 10,000 transactions a second
or whatever.
I mean, you can imagine some some people just want to hit the ground running.
They want to be doing in consensus and be transacting immediately.
And they don't necessarily want to download like, you know, the 16 terabyte blockchain.
I mean, there is a little bit of like truth to the argument about decentralization with

(51:51):
huge blockchains that core but the core sort of just exaggerated the whole thing.
You know, ideally, you'd want you'd want the option to be able to just like run run a validating
node that doesn't have all the history.
And so that's where like the UTXO commitments UTXO set downloading and sharing.
That's where the idea fits in where you want to just hit a hit the ground running with
the node.

(52:12):
Let's see one of you want to mine so you don't care about the whole history of everything.
You know, maybe you can validate the history in parallel in the background later.
You know, you want to transact now.
That's sort of where UTXO commitments come because because the UTXO set is much smaller
than the whole history of the blockchain.
Right.
I mean, coins are created and destroyed all the time.
You know, as you spend money like that creates a new entry in the ledger and then you spend

(52:34):
it and then that entry disappears.
So you know, if you download the history, like you have that whole history of all the
states of all the ledger is like throughout time.
Whereas if you just want to get the immediate snapshot of today, you know, that's a much
smaller piece of data to download.
And so that's like the idea of UTXO commitments or UTXO fast sync is like, you know, you can
start a note up like and you just download the UTXO set, which, you know, right now it

(52:57):
maybe is five gigabytes as opposed to like the whole block chain, which is, you know,
on Bitcoin is like nine gigabytes on Bitcoin cash, like 300 or 400 gigabytes.
So you know, you can just start to hit the ground downloading, downloading like four
or five gigabytes right now these days is nothing.
It's like Google Fiber connection.
You know, you do it in like a couple of, you know, like whatever, like under a minute.

(53:17):
So actually 10 seconds if you're getting 100 megabit, but yeah, anyway, I mean gigabit.
So where was I?
Oh, I was surprised to see that Core is actually working on something like this, but not in
the way I'd like.
I think they're still sort of fascinated by the idea of everybody downloading the whole
blockchain from the beginning of time.

(53:38):
Because I think if they lose that as part of their narrative, then their argument for
not scaling disappears.
So they're still sort of married to the idea that everybody should be downloading the whole
blockchain.
But they did, they did some work where you can, you can like export a UTXO set to disk
and then you can load it up on another node.
And then once it's loaded, that node goes back and starts downloading all the blocks

(54:02):
from the end time.
But in the meantime, it's actually able to transact.
Like it's, you know, you can start mining right away or you can start validating transactions
right away.
And then like in the background, you'll be, I'm surprised that they did work on this.
And some of the engineering that did there was pretty good.
They're still not thinking about the problem correctly in my opinion.
But it's, yeah, I mean, so it's good to see that even core sort of wants nodes to be able

(54:25):
to hit the ground running quickly.
It just, they're not really thinking about the problem deeply enough about how, you know,
how to really do this.
You can tell that they don't really want to abandon the idea of a full history.
They can't, as you say.
They've put themselves in a catch-22.
Yeah, it's key to their narrative.
But they have to have nodes, like as many nodes as possible, holding the whole blockchain

(54:46):
on disk.
Because then they can't justify not being able to scale if they get rid of that.
So I don't know.
It's like, it's weird.
But yeah, so that's helpful because of course doing some of the work on that and some of
the stuff they came up with is very similar to what we're doing, which is good.
I mean, sort of like convergent evolution.
I never, like no one's ever looked at what they're doing until, you know, me maybe.
So I mean, it's good.

(55:06):
It's like the idea, it's like sort of confirming my own suspicions that we should be doing
this.
Yeah.
It was working, I mean that.
One of the more recent conversations that I've been having with some of the BTC people,
there was a post I made a week or two ago where I was just like, yep, there's basically
no arguments left.
Come at me.
And the two main arguments against BCH right now I think are still privacy and what you're

(55:30):
just saying, the UTXO commitment thing.
And, okay, what happens when we are filling 32 megabyte plus blocks?
What happens when we are filling, you know, 48, 64, one gigabyte blocks, right?
How do you actually do the IBD, the initial block download?
Well, you don't have to if we have UTX commitments.
You could just do it on the background.

(55:51):
I think it's a key requirement for us long-term.
If you know, our vision is to be world money or to be much more scalable money, like to
be ubiquitous money.
So it's like a requirement, I think, as far as I see it.
Like it's just a technical requirement.
And I think it's very doable, very feasible.
There's nothing holding us back on a technology front.
We've got to sit down and decide how to do the UTXO commitments on chain so that their

(56:14):
mind are validated.
So you know that if you download a UTXO set from some random place or from some other
nodes, you can validate it immediately, quickly, cheaply.
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, like you said, I think it's a...
If we reach the scale, like we really need it, I think.
When?
You know, Kalin...
When we reach the scale.
I actually do have a question for Kalin.
Do you, like how much do you believe in the idea that we need to be able to run a node

(56:39):
on like consumer level hardware, whether that's a Raspberry Pi or like refurbished Dell OptiPlex
or something?
Like what do you see the future of BCH in that regard?
I think it's definitely democratizing the more you can do that.
There is some truth to that argument that Core does, but I think they exaggerate it.

(56:59):
Like they move the goalposts on it and they just sort of, they use that as a narrative
to capture the whole chain.
But there is truth.
I mean, obviously if you could, you know, the more ubiquitous and decentralized something
is in that regard, I think is good.
But you know, you don't want to sacrifice like world adoption.
You know, like you don't want it to just be like another stupid...

(57:21):
You know, like, I mean, you don't want to screw it up, man.
You know, it's a fine line.
Like, you know, you don't want, not everybody needs to run the whole chain, like have the
whole historical chain.
Like, I definitely think that's true.
But I definitely think it is democratizing the more accessible the whole chain is to
everybody.
Then you could just sort of go back and validate it just to make sure that nobody did anything

(57:43):
quick crazy.
But you know, this is a giant like social and technological experiment.
I don't actually, I don't, let's say like we just keep using Bitcoin Cash for like another
hundred years or something.
I can't imagine people caring about like what transactions happened in 2017 or whatever.
Like at some point...
There will be some libraries.
What I imagine is maybe it's 10, maybe it's 20, but there will be like some libraries

(58:05):
and there'll be in universities or some museum where they have the entire blockchain.
And it's also like as a point for basically people to just, as you say, just check and
see like did anything like really funky happen.
But it might be an interesting point for just seeing, you know, people always keep these
sort of things, right?
Someone will always just because it's a novelty.
But you're absolutely right.

(58:25):
You know, you can't be expecting that to be the standard.
Even if people, even if the hard drives and storage was to grow really exponentially.
I don't think, you know, at a certain point, the blockchain would just be just stupid from
the beginning of time.
It's going to be, you know, petabytes.
What purpose does that serve?
Yeah, and there's like diminishing value.

(58:47):
Like, you know, we have cryptography.
You can prove that's like a set is what it says it is.
Right?
You don't need to have a whole set necessarily.
There's not there's a diminishing value to like transactions from like over 100 years
ago.
Like who cares?
Like, you know, you decide like 10 years ago is my cutoff for when I start to really care.
And I trust that, you know, everything that's happened since then is pretty good.

(59:07):
Even traditional finance banks don't keep records beyond seven years.
I used to work at a bank.
So I know that.
Yeah, right.
Because even to them, even for auditing or legal purposes, like it has no more value
to them anymore.
Like who cares about seven years ago?
Legally doesn't matter anymore.
So, you know, we're off the hook.
So I mean, there's a fine line with that.
Like you don't obviously if the blockchain is one byte and but and somehow we can magically

(59:29):
transact the whole world can transact on one byte like that would be perfect.
Right.
I mean, you could fit the blockchain on your little smartwatch or whatever.
You'd run it inside your microwave like the CPU or I mean, obviously the ideal is the
tiniest blockchain possible.
But at the same time, you want the most volume on the chain and you want to have access to
it.
And so these two things like are, you know, the tension between two things and you don't
set you don't draw the line arbitrarily like where everybody's excluded like just to keep

(59:52):
the bankers and the big institutions in but everyone else out like that's just ridiculous.
But there is a fine line with it and you just have to find the market decides these things.
I think ultimately I think it should be I think like the task of like the core developers
should be just to make the technology and then let the market decide and they're not
doing that.
I mean, they're sort of just, you know, obviously they're captured.
So they're steering it.
And what I want to do with BCHN at least or with BCH where I can is just offer the market

(01:00:15):
the ability to decide, you know, if they want to 10 years of history but beyond that, they
don't care.
Maybe it takes commitments and just people stop serving up all blocks and maybe there'll
be one or two historical nodes out there.
Like you said, like libraries, Library of Congress, you know, you connect to that node
and you can get from block zero.
But no one else cares.
You know, that's fine.
You know, as long as as long as it doesn't eliminate any security, which it won't.

(01:00:40):
You know, that's just I think you should just let the market decide.
Don't be central planners.
I just I've just noticed the time of coming up two times.
So for any of those that are listening, I've done a snapshot now.
So that's considered the end of the episode.
Just like just to go on just for a little bit longer, just because what I'd love before
before we close out, I'd love to hear what is the outlook for BCH, you know, thinking

(01:01:03):
about all the developments that are happening.
We've just got the MUSD, so a stablecoin launch and we've got Cauldron.
We've got the updates in 2025.
So I want to hear from from each one of you.
What is the outlook of BCH?
How are you feeling about it?
And what are we expecting in the next year and beyond?
And how do we get to the next academy we could start?

(01:01:24):
I'm very, very optimistic.
And this is going to be sort of esoteric and weird for me to say, but I think we're living
in a historical period where we're saying no to like experts and sort of no to I don't
know, like.
So the whole way that BTC has been able to capture crypto is like, oh, the experts know
what they're doing.
And then sort of now we're sort of living through a period where we're like, you know,

(01:01:45):
screw you experts.
You guys screwed it up.
Like people are just more about grassroots and democratization and like populism now.
And I think BCH is like the populism Bitcoin.
Like it's the one that actually is controlled by the people that are using it.
I don't know.
I think that we're sort of in a Zika shift right now that's going on in the world.
I mean, we're seeing it in Europe.
We're seeing it in the US.
I mean, the way Trump was elected and just the whole platform that he ran on.

(01:02:09):
And I don't know.
You might be surprised that the narrative could just collapse for the powers that be.
And then we'll have a whole different host of problems because if we could become more
mainstream then you're going to get all these people coming in and who knows where things
are going to go.
But that's just the fun part.
You know, it should be the people's coin.
You know, it should be everybody's coin.
It should be decentralized.

(01:02:29):
It isn't up to one actor to decide.
But I really am hopeful.
It makes me really bullish.
I think we've got it all going on, man.
We've got scalability.
We're going to have like smart contracts to compete with Ethereum at some point, if not
already to a large extent.
And it's just, you know, the sky's the limit.
Like, I really am very bullish.
And the price action has been very encouraging.

(01:02:50):
So yeah.
Yeah, there you go.
So Kalen Kilianou is very optimistic about the future.
And it's as I guys change.
We can see that, you know, the change in US with certain politics, we can see that with
the Bitcoin Cash community.
And so thank you very much for your feedback.
And I'm also feeling the same way.

(01:03:10):
Incredibly bullish.
Kylishti, let's hear from you.
Your take.
What's your outlook for BCH?
So I think first off, really, I agree with Kalen on the whole zeitgeist change, just
like the way that we think about things, the way that our politics are working right now.
Just from my point of view, I feel like it shifted overnight with the Trump election.
So I'm not necessarily a Trump supporter.

(01:03:33):
Like I'm more of like a middle of the road kind of.
I'm an anarchist.
Let's just say it that way.
But what I'm really seeing with the most recent US election does kind of lead me to feel like
things are really bullish.
I think a lot of people were really quiet about wanting to vote for Trump.
But when I just look at my locality, there was not really any support for the Democrats.

(01:03:57):
And I think there's a lot of reasons for that.
And it's like Kalen was saying, it's part of the zeitgeist shift.
I think we're really standing up to, quote unquote, the powers that be.
We're really looking at, hey, we really want to be able to have free information and free
exchange.
We're sick of being locked down.
We're sick of having people tell us how to think.
It's like George Orwell wrote about this in 1984.

(01:04:18):
And we're starting to see so much of that become reality.
And then all of a sudden, we just see this total reversal.
And that really, to me, felt like it happened overnight with Trump getting elected.
And so politics aside, just from the BCH front, I think BCH by itself is doing really well.
And I think that we are unburdened by the election results also.

(01:04:45):
We are unburdened by what has been.
And I think the outlook is looking really good.
I think BCH is going to be a really freaking crazy nuts year for BCH in a really positive
way because we've been cooking on products.
We've been clicking on protocol development for years now.
We've been cooking on narrative shifting for years now.
And we can see all of the cumulative effects of all of that happening right now in real

(01:05:09):
time as we speak.
You can go anywhere on Twitter, look at the BTC-BCH debate, look at the crypto versus
everyone else debate.
And what I see is no clear winner except for BCH if you're paying attention.
Here, here.
Bang on.
Well said.
All right.
So this is probably the very last question.

(01:05:30):
So I know you were both attendees of BCH Blitz 2024.
We had a wicked time there.
It was awesome.
Will you both be getting tickets for BCH Blitz 2025 this May?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No doubt in my mind, man.
It's like Ljubljana is an awesome city to visit.
Everything about it was amazing.
I highly recommend everybody go.
It's just an amazing place to visit.
And everybody was so awesome.

(01:05:52):
It was so uplifting.
Really, really, really.
Even if you're just watching BCH and you don't feel like you're a giant member of the community,
just show up and you'll have fun.
I guarantee you.
Yeah, I fully intend on going again if I can.
We're probably going to have to do another fundraiser for Celine to make that happen,
but I want to make it happen.
So it was a great experience.

(01:06:13):
And honestly, I'm just so glad that Jonathan and Jeremy and everyone who had a hand in
that made it happen because it was one of the best experiences of my life.
I really needed it in terms of being engaged in the community, meeting these people that
I work with every day online.
It was a very blissful experience, really.
It lived up to the name.
And I absolutely would go again.

(01:06:35):
It's fantastic.
It really is.
It makes such a massive difference actually meeting people in person.
I know we have quite a few people who are anonymous in the community who don't see the
value in that.
But I think once you've experienced it yourself, there is huge value in it.
And of course, then what comes out of that, these deeper relationships, it allows them
much more productivity and cooperation with each other.

(01:06:57):
So it allows, it's not just more fun.
I think we've also got a lot more stuff done.
So I really hope you can get there, Kylisthi.
It'd be lovely to see you and Callan.
I'm so super excited that we get to do the Escape Room too.
So we've got BCHDF, the best of our devs, and unfortunately couldn't get us out of the
Escape Room.

(01:07:17):
We had to call for help multiple times.
So next time we're going to do it.
Yeah, next time.
We'll get it this time.
The cool thing about Bliss, man, is it's so awesome, man.
Like, yeah, totally.
Yeah, I don't want to take it.
Yes.
It was awesome.
Hey, the hour is almost over now, Fiendish and friends.
So thank you so much, Callan and Kylisthi, for joining us today.
That was so much fun.

(01:07:37):
And to be honest, it could have gone on for quite a bit longer.
Make sure, for all you that are listening, go and follow them on Twitter at CKylianou
and KZKylisthi.
The Fiendish token will be given out to each of our guests.
So Callan, Kylisthi, if you haven't done already, just pop your cash token address as a comment

(01:07:58):
to the spaces, or you can send it in a private message.
That's also OK.
And I'll make sure that gets to you.
If you enjoyed the show and want to show your appreciation, please feel free to drop some
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(01:08:21):
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Fiendish and Friends episode five is at 1pm Central European time next Friday, and it's
featuring Dagger and Halva from Rift and Labs to talk about Cauldron, Moria, magic and spells,

(01:08:44):
and all things that glitter green.
So that's pretty exciting.
For all you fans that can't wait to listen, just make sure you pop that one Fiendish token
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Fiendish token is available at CauldronSwap with links in the comments.
This was Fiendish and Friends.
I wish you all a great morning, a good day and a super night.

(01:09:08):
Take care.
Bye.