#5 - Dagur & Halvor from Riften Labs, Talk Cauldron, Moria, MUSD

Fiendish & Friends #5:

1. Weekly News
2. Riftenlabs CEO (Dagur Valberg Johannsson), and Shadow Wizard Arch Mage Halvor Bakke-Veiby talk about Cauldren Dex, Moria protocol and Moria USD while cracking open some magical green elixirs together during the hour!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Fiendish & Friends

(00:02):
episode five. Real money, real
tokens, real talk. Joining us
for today's episode. We have
two wizards coming into cast
spells with Riften Labs CEO
Dagger Valberg, Johansson and
Shadow Wizard Archmage, Halvor,
Bakke-Veiby behind
Cauldron and Moria. We get to
learn about Cauldron Dex,

(00:24):
Moria protocol and Moria USD
while cracking open some
magical green and little
things that we're going to
talk about today. We're going
to be opening some magical
green elixirs together during
the hour. Before we begin,
finish and friends are running
two giveaways today for a chance
to grab a big stash of up to
60,000 emerald, and we have
some Moria USD to hand out.

(00:45):
Just be present at the spaces
and comment your cash token
addresses to win. More details
can be found on our Twitter
profile or in finishing
friends Telegram group. This
week, we're going to be
opening up a slew of
improvements to our favorite
Bitcoin cash power user
wallet, including updates to

(01:06):
the user interface and
expanded features such as
support for 15 18 and 24 word
seed phrases. There's also
been some nice enhancements
to cash fusions, cash tokens
and RPA. Along with your
regular bug fixes. BCH dot
Games now offers daily,
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(01:27):
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asset backed stable coin,
which uses BCH has
collateral has over $20,000

(01:48):
total value locked on cauldron
keeping it in pole position on
the leaderboard. The prize
will be sent out to 15 lucky
live listeners of this
episode who post their cash
tokens aware address in the
spaces comments. So if you
haven't done that already,
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(02:12):
price and BCH has risen over
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(02:34):
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(02:56):
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respectively. And a big shout
out to everyone who joined in

(03:18):
the fun. There were many
people who joined in the fun
and the new song for BCH a
world United, which was reposted
yesterday for your listening
pleasure. The link to the song
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coming up in a minute. And for
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played or will be played at the
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(03:41):
it on the live stream,
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(04:26):
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(04:50):
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(05:11):
bunch of self licensed
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Thank you, Bruno. Area VPN
dot net a bunch of self
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service. Without a further
second of waiting, let's get
our wizards hats on crack open
a potion and start stirring the
cauldron to see what spells we

(05:32):
can conduct on today's show. So
please welcome Shadow Wizards
Dagger and Halvor under the
stage. Hi guys. Welcome to
finish from friends. Thank you
so much finish. Thank you. Wow
what an intro. Yeah, it's
amazing when you actually
get to see what's going on in
the world right now in the
ecosystem, and it's very

(05:53):
exciting and there's a lot
going on with you guys, right?
And rift and labs. So I think
over the last few weeks,
everyone in BCH has either
heard about or come into
contact in some form with one
of your products, but probably
aren't aware of the team behind
Mori and cauldron. So who are
the wizards behind rift and
labs? Let's hear. Yeah, so we
actually have a couple of them

(06:15):
here. We have a guy named
Jacob, aka Shadow Wizard
number nine, the principal
engineer and super, super
talented PhD from the Norwegian
University of Science and
Technology. Uh we have me
Halvor Shadow Wizard number
two. I'm a rocket engineer. I
joined as the kind of second

(06:44):
guy, uh, or also super
talented crypto person, uh,
Ethereum guy and also a stunt
BCH supporter. And of course,
we have the Shadow Wizard
High Priest himself, the King
dagger, Valberg, uh, my, uh,
trusted companion and, uh,

(07:05):
yeah, the inventor of colon
protocol, the more a protocol
is, the more powerful it is.
And then the BCH deeper. So
yeah, our team is growing
basically every week. We have
partners all over the world.
Um and yeah, with the

(07:27):
introduction of M. U. S. D.
Last week, we I mean, uh, I
try and always get eight hours
of sleep each night, but it's
becoming increasingly harder.
Um, the first nights were kind
of tense, but, uh, I'm
starting to sleep better now.
Uh, things have been running
for a few days or hasn't been a

(07:48):
week already. I'm not sure.
Low implosions yet. It feels
like a long time. Um, and it's
gone without a hiccup. It's
awesome. Um, we have more
people saying to the other guys,

(08:09):
like if we get many to get like
20 BCH locked into cold run
with together with Maria during
the test, I would consider it
a success. And we already have
closer to 40 last time I
checked. So people are really,
really using really testing out
it, testing it out. I'm very
glad about it. Yeah, that's
actually one of my questions

(08:30):
was, you know, with the launch,
um, did it goes to be expected?
So then it was, it was double
what you were expecting. I mean,
I was, I said, like, if it gets
to 20 BCH during like the whole
test periods, I would be happy.
I'm, I'm, we actually do that
in two days.
There we go. They're looking,

(08:51):
looking forward to see where
that goes. So it's kind of
interesting. Just thinking
about your backgrounds. I
think you have for you, uh, a
rocket scientist. How does a
rocket scientist, uh, do you
know? How does a rocket
scientist end up working as a
wizard for Dex and, uh, and
for Rift and Labs and BCH?
Um, well, I, in 2017, I was a

(09:16):
developer in the first Bitcoin
world app in Norway together
with some other super talented
people. Torquil, Rogstad, Bjorn
Olof, um, the guys that run,
uh, Bara Bitcoin, uh, right now
it's a centralized exchange and,
uh, lots of other talented
people. Um, when we did that,
I, uh, co-founded a corking

(09:39):
space in Trondheim where, uh,
it's in the north of Norway,
which is the place where the
Rift and Labs HQ is right now
and where me and Dagger is in
each of our, uh, rooms. So,
uh, working here, I started,
uh, to, uh, learn about the
rocket engineering and, uh,
started working at the rocket
lab at the Norwegian University

(10:01):
of Science and Technology and,
uh, eventually dropped out to
create, uh, machines that clean
up space debris and, uh, Dagger
is actually my second ever
investor only after Mr.
Shasta there. So, this is kind
of how this, uh, came to be.
Last summer, Dagger came to me
and said, uh, I'm going to

(10:25):
build the world's fastest
techs. Do you want to help?
I said, yeah. And now we're
here.
That is amazing. And, uh, yeah,
you build up quite a team quite
quickly, um, behind Rift and
Labs. So, it's really, really
exciting to see that growth
happening in Bitcoin Cash. Um,

(10:46):
so Rift and Labs is responsible
for several exciting BCH
products. Um, so, um, I'm
excited to see that growth
happening in Bitcoin Cash.
So, it's really exciting BCH
products. One of the latest to
be released in the Alpha
performance you already
mentioned is the, the Moria
USD and the Moria Protocol.
Can you tell our audience,

(11:07):
like, what's the difference
between these two things?
What's the differentiator and
why should everyone here be
excited by them?
Um, what's the question?
Sorry, the picture was covering

(11:28):
my mic and I couldn't get rid
of it. Um, no, the question
was, so we've got the Moria
Protocol and Moria USD.
Okay.
Uh, the difference between them
and those two?
Well, the protocol is basically
a smart contract.
So, it's, uh, it's poorly
managed. It's open source.

(11:49):
And, uh, and, and it is what
allows you to mint the, uh,
USD. Um, and the way you mint
the USD is that you put up some
BCH as collateral, like, um,
this BCH is kind of a proof
that, uh, USD has value, right?

(12:12):
It's, it's backing the USD
out. So, you can't just mint
USD. And this is also what gives
it its value. So, you put in
collateral and you say, like, I
want to get 100 USD out. That
means you have to put in at least
150 USD worth of BCH out, uh,

(12:34):
in, into collateral. And that
is basically the protocol. So,
it's basically, it is a loan
contract that also is a stable
contract. So, you have two
presents in one. Um, and this
gives you a very, very
transparent, uh, stable coin

(12:56):
where you can see that, yeah,
there is actually some,
something backing it. And it's
also, um, since it's a smart
contract, it is, uh, there's no
third party that can stop it.
And that's because, uh, now you

(13:17):
can, uh, like the, it has many
use cases. Um, but for
investors, the use case would
be you get to keep your BCH
even though you want to do
other investments, right? So,
say you want to buy some Tesla
stock, um, but you need
liquidity. So, do you sell your
BCH to buy a Tesla stock? Or,

(13:39):
well, in this case, you can keep
your BCH even though you want
to sell it. So, yeah, that's
right. You get to keep your BCH
and you get to buy a Tesla. So,
it's, uh, it allows you to keep
your investment in that way.
Yeah, okay. That was a great,
great question is, yeah, what
is the use case? And that's,
that's, uh, that's exactly it
because especially right now in

(14:01):
a bull run to sell BCH to
invest into something else would
be, uh, probably a pretty,
pretty, uh, crazy move or not,
not a, not a very smart move,
but, um, I'm a CEO, government
in America and a new SEC head.
Um, so, so I could go to
Moria. I want to have some

(14:22):
liquidity. I want to buy, as
you say, some Tesla shares or
maybe I need to make that, that
payment on, on whatever it is I
need to do. I can go to Moria.
I bring my BCH. I lock it up in
a smart contract and as I
understand this, there's no
then third party counter risk.
It's, it's just the contract
there. So, even if Riften Labs
was to disappear and go away,
I would still have that

(14:43):
contract that I've made when
I've deposited my BCH and in
return, I get some Moria USD.
So this, this new stable coin
on Bitcoin Cash. Um, so just to
understand how much BCH would I
need to deposit relative to the
value of the Moria USD that I
get out of that. You need to

(15:05):
deposit 50% more. So 150% to
the loan is allowed to go down
in collateral until 110%. And
there, so you have some, some
room there. But if you go down
below 110%, it basically becomes

(15:27):
a, technically it becomes like
anyone can spend the contract.
That means that anyone can pay
back your loan and take your
collateral. That's only if you
go under 110%. So, and then the
logic behind that is when you
don't keep your collateral high,

(15:51):
if you, if you allow it to go
that far down, you're kind of
putting the protocol at risk,
right? Because what gives a
new value is that you actually
have some other assets backing
up. And the final 10% is your
punishment. And someone else's,

(16:13):
thank you. Like it
incentivizes other people to
pick up your bad loan. And keep
the protocol going.
Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, keep
the protocol going, keep that
USD backed, MUSD backed and
making sure that it stays
stable. Makes sense. Okay, so
then I guess then 150% is the

(16:35):
maximum limit of collateral.
So, if you're talking about
collateralization, I guess
there's a possibility of also
making it even more
collateralized. Is there a
maximum limit of the
collateralization that you can
use?
There is no, technically no
maximum, but we added up to
500% in the user interface. But
if you go and do it outside our

(16:58):
user interface, then you can
put as much as you want.
So, I think that's the
biggest challenge for BCH,
because of course there are
other tools out there to
stabilize the value of BCH.
There is AnyHedge from General
Protocols. But it comes with
some more technical aspects

(17:20):
which might shy away or make
people shy away from that to
less use to the ecosystem, less
use to the company. Stable coins
is something that everyone is
aware of. It's very simple. You
have a token in your wallet. It
is a token that you can exchange
for a dollar's worth of value
or whatever the stable coin is.
So, I think this is something
that people will jump at

(17:41):
potentially much more because
it's understood. And it sounds
like that's what you're seeing
too. So, it's beat expectations
and you've had double the usage
so far that you expected just
in a few days, which suggests
that there's a lot more to come
with MUSD. But it's currently

(18:04):
when you go on to app.moria.
money, which is the Moria
protocol it's got on here, this
is an experimental and time
limited test run. And of course
there's a link there to go and
people can read up some more of
the risks there and what the
test run is. But maybe you could
just sum it up in a few
sentences. What is the stage of

(18:25):
MUSD? What is this test run?
And when does it come to an end?
The test run is, the protocol is
very simple today. We would like
to add some more features to it.
And the test run is basically to
test what we can make with the
current consensus limitations

(18:47):
and see if it's a viable product.
The only way to test a product
like this is to do it with real
money because if you put it on
testnet, it doesn't really make
sense because testnet coins don't
have any money behind them, right?
They're worthless. So they're not
real collateral. So this is

(19:10):
basically the best way to test it.
And we have decided before
launching that this is a test run.
This is not the final product.
And that's why we added something
called sunset clause. And sunset
clause is basically a more
convenient way to end because

(19:31):
it's become cash, right? And
because it's become cash, you
always own the money. You own the
UTXOS. We can't just shut it
down cleanly. So this is the
cleanest way to do it. When the
sunset clause is triggered and it
can be triggered by us, that

(19:52):
means that anyone holding MUSD is
able to pay back any loan. And
when you pay back using the
sunset clause, you get BCH equal
the MUSD value you have. And all
the over collateralized BCH goes

(20:15):
back to whoever created the
original loan contract.
So basically I haven't bought
enough more of your USD is what
you're telling me.
Yeah. This means that if MUSD
goes to 90 cents, for example,
you could buy 100 MUSD for $90

(20:36):
and just keep it until the
sunset and you will get $100
worth of BCH back. So it would
be an amazing arbitrage
opportunity if MUSD would ever
go below PEG.
That's good to know.
I would not recommend you to put
more.

(20:59):
All right. So I shouldn't invest
a couple of hundred grand right
now because I just had it line
down.
APY is 9.12%. So I'm just saying.
Yeah. I'd imagine it's really
valuable what you're doing here
because, of course, everything
can be theoretically very nice
and working very well. But once

(21:21):
you've got real money on the
table, then people's psychology
is different, of course, when
it's fake money and then you can
really start testing the system
and test for any weak points.
And I think this is a really
good thing to do. So, of course,
everyone that's, you know,
there's $20,000 locked in, I'm
guessing quite a lot of
participants in this, but it
should be treated very much as,
you know, a testing phase, from

(21:42):
what I understand. And just to,
you know, just to stress this
out before the full rollout.
And what I'd love to know is,
like, so far, you've mentioned
that you've had some sleepless
nights, and I imagine this is
very, very big for you guys and
you want to make sure everything
is going smooth and that it's a
great success. And you've
already mentioned to some of
that, you know, it's been an
impressive adoption so far. Have

(22:03):
you guys stumbled into any bugs
that have been identified or
anything that you can share
where you think, you know, where
you've made some improvements or
some adjustments to this?
We've had a few, like, future
requests, like people want to
partially pay back their loan,
which is understandable, but
there is no, I mean, the
contract is exactly 201 upcodes,

(22:24):
which is the consensus limit
today, so we can't add any more
features. And I just want to
point out that, yeah, it is a
test run and there are very few
people in the world who are able
to audit the contract. We have
had a few people who have
been, I'm not going to say the

(22:45):
names in case anything goes
wrong, but we have had some of
the best people we know look
into it and review the
contract. But it is a test, so
yeah. Besides that, we will be
adding, I have talked a lot with

(23:07):
Marius here in the chat and we
talked a lot about how we could
keep, like, push the value up in
case it starts going down and
the one way of doing that is to
increase the borrow fee in case
the peg goes up. And that's one
of the features we will be
adding in the next test run. And

(23:29):
that's also an important feature
in similar products like
liquidity. Yeah.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And how has the peg been so far?
So I'm just looking at it now.
Current price on cauldron is
.994 dollars. So it seems to be

(23:50):
maintaining its peg quite well
and we have had quite a bit
volatility with the BCH price
since that has launched. Are
you happy with, you know, of
course, liquidity is going to
impact this, I would assume,
quite greatly. So the less
liquidity, the smaller the
ecosystem, the more a coin like
this should move between a
certain range as people buy it

(24:10):
and sell it. But how has that
been maintained since launch?
Is it good? You happy with it?
Oh, I'm very happy with it.
It has been. What's interesting
is that there are no bots, right?
No one has developed bots yet
and still the peg is being
maintained. That just means that
people are really following and
interested and taking like the

(24:33):
small opportunities there are.
Yeah.
Yeah, great. I think it's a good
sign then that there's enough
people in the community who are
interested in this to validate
you guys investing all this
time. And I really think being

(24:54):
able to safely store value in
something, in a stable coin
without leaving the BCH
ecosystem, this is a huge win
for BCH and as I've already
said, to see all this testing
and careful rollout of this
technology is to be highly
respected. This is a great way
of reducing the risks until all
the pieces of the jigsaw are in

(25:16):
line and I guess all the kinks
are in doubt. So yeah, Moria USD
is available for those that are
listening. You can purchase this
on Cauldron Dex, which is another
hugely popular BCH product
created by you guys. So before
just going into and discussing a
little bit about Cauldron, I've
got a second Phoenix shout out

(25:37):
here. This is from Cheepy and
his shout out is, please check
out fundme.cash forward slash
campaign forward slash 17 to
support my work. So go check
out Cheepy's fundraiser and be
the someone to help push it over
the finish line. All right, so
Cauldron. So Cauldron Dex is
something, as you guys are aware,
I've been getting acquainted

(25:59):
with over the last few weeks.
I've been getting a lot of
feedback from people who are
interested in this and I've been
really excited to be able to
talk to them because I have to
be quite frank, it's not my game.
It's not the sort of thing that
drove me to BCH, but I see
there's a lot of interesting
things, a lot of fun to be had

(26:21):
there and I've been having a lot
of fun interacting with your
website and all the different
wallet connect wallets. So tell
us, picture product, what does
Cauldron offer and why should
people go and check it out?
Cauldron is the world's fastest
Dex. Cauldron is built on the
original Bitcoin and

(26:42):
cryptocurrency philosophy that
having money and using money is
basically a human right. And
some might say that the ethos
of the crypto sphere has been
kind of diluted in the last
couple of years. So I think
that's been kind of diluted over
the past years and Cauldron was
created to usher in a renaissance

(27:07):
of this philosophy of everyone
being able to use money
everywhere. So Cauldron is
simply a protocol and a website
interface that anyone anywhere
at any time can enter and a
vault is automatically created
and you can swap tokens, you can

(27:29):
provide liquidity and what we
have seen, some of the stuff that
makes me most happy is actually
people in developing nations just
using the Cauldron web wallet as
just their wallet to just
transact and especially now with
MUSD this makes it so much
easier for people just to buy
bread using crypto. So this is

(27:50):
some of the stuff that's made me
actually most proud of what we
have done with Cauldron and with
Moria. So Cauldron is a decentralized
exchange, it's a protocol out
there in the world that just lets
people transact with each other
and increases freedom overall in
the world.

(28:11):
I would say Cauldron is also, I
would say a DEX is like, it's the
most loved DeFi product out there,
right? You can't have decentralized
payments without having a way to
exchange your assets in a good
way. So it's basically a
cornerstone of DeFi. And it was

(28:32):
the first obvious product that
needed to be made to introduce
Bitcoin Cash to the DeFi system.
But it's also, it's fun. People
love to create an asset to have
something that represents a
community, to have something that
represents something they value,

(28:52):
right? And it's also a way to get
like a passive yield. Like if you
have trust in BC8 and you have
trust in another token, then you
can put it into a pool and you
can collect passive yield over
time. And this is a product we
didn't have before on Bitcoin

(29:13):
Cash. You couldn't just, your
only way to gain passively was
to have the price go up, right?
And now you're providing a
service, right? You are a
market maker and you get some
yield for it, for your service.
This is also kind of fundamental

(29:36):
of the product that none of us
can rug anyone. Same with Moria.
It's we ourselves, the devs,
don't know how to rug this. So
with all these centralized
crypto applications, you have
this constant fear of being

(29:57):
rugged. I actually myself wish to
take up a loan in USDT because
you basically know that it's
going to be ruined one day or
totally collapse under its own
wings. So this is also a good
thing when you're out there in
the world. Just, you know, it's
not your keys, not your coins
and there are other ways to
do it. And there are malicious

(30:20):
actors out there. So the best
thing you can do is just to use
open source protocols and use
something wherein no one can
actually rug you and steal your
money. So this is what I love
about DeFi. This is the ethos
that Cauldron and Moria is built
upon.
Yeah, it is an awesome ethos and

(30:41):
it also means, yeah, as you say,
you don't have this third party
risk. You can't be rugged by the
developers. So it's a great
asset to Bitcoin Cash. And I've
definitely seen, you said, Dago,
it's a lot of fun. And we've
seen this. There's been a huge
growth in the people that are

(31:03):
trading tokens on here. So I'm
not sure how many tokens you've
got right now. I'm just
scrolling down 227 different
tokens.
I don't know how that compares
to other chains. I guess, you
know, something like Sol has
thousands. But considering the
fact that tokens have only been

(31:25):
available on Bitcoin Cash
network since last year.
And there are thousands of cash
tokens. These are just the ones
with liquidity on Cauldron. So I
think there's between five and
10,000. Last time I checked,
I think May, there were 7,000
cash tokens, CRC and BSMR. So

(31:47):
there are literally thousands.
Wow. Okay. There's a lot there.
Okay. So that means we've got 227
tokens that have some liquidity
to some amount of BCH in the
corresponding token on Cauldron.
So that's pretty incredible when

(32:08):
thinking about the tokens have
only been possible since the
cash tokens upgrade in 2023. And
of course, it didn't launch with
great tooling. So the really
easy to use tooling is
relatively recent, baked into
different wallets such as
Electron Cash, also Paytaka with
the cash token studio, which is

(32:30):
really easy to use. So this is
all relatively recent stuff. So
quite an explosion, I'd say, on
the scene of this new thing. So
how do you guys feel about this?
This is your business model.
You've got this DEX out, the only
DEX, if I'm not mistaken, on
BCH and certainly the first. How

(32:51):
has that launch gone for you? How
has the last year been for you?
Have you been hitting the sort of
the growth and the usage that you
guys are expecting?
Well, it is very new and as I

(33:13):
say, it's very little support.
But I would say the growth has
been considering awesome. And I
also love to see all the use
cases pop up. And shout out to
Beacon Cash TV. I don't know if
you've watched his show, but he
spends a lot of time on the show
trading on Cauldron and
considering tokens. And he has

(33:34):
some nice products. Like you give
out emeralds, he gives out
points. Like you get a point
every minute you watch. Yeah,
there's so many cool products
going on. And you know, it's kind
of like what comes first, the DEX
or the usage. DEX has to come
first. So I am expecting like

(33:59):
exponential growth, right, as
the useful tokens come in. Like
your token, it adds more value
to the DEX as well. And it gives
like a network effect like for
every other token out there. And
you will see eventually like
huge growth even though it

(34:19):
hasn't quite come yet. But we
have a few thousand users if you
look at the blockchain. And I
look at the unique wallets. We
don't track our users, so the
only way to see usage is to
actually look at the blockchain
and you see thousands of users
coming in. And it's awesome.
That's really interesting. Is

(34:40):
this something that you publish
and we can look anywhere? Just
the numbers of unique wallets,
for example, unique addresses
that you're using this? We have
an API for it. So I guess we
should like on Moria page we
have like a stats where we can
see like Moria stats. We really
should add that for Cauldron as

(35:02):
well.
Yeah, I would love to see that
because for me it's the rate of
growth and seeing how interested
people are and also when there
are certain peaks, like when all
of a sudden new addresses are
being used and then trying to
link that to what activities are
happening out there in the world.
Is it linked to a conference? Is

(35:23):
it linked to your promotional
activities? Because for me what
I love about Bitcoin Cash and
its ecosystem is Rising Tide
erases all the ships and so your
success helps BCH, BCH success
helps you and it's the same with
General Protocols, all the stuff
that they're doing. It's all
contributing. So the more
information that's shared out

(35:45):
there, I know the Bitcoin Cash
is helping as well too because
the more we can see the growth
in the ecosystem, the more we can
try and link it to what activities
is helping with that growth, it
can never be a bad thing. I think
it can help with that and making
smarter decisions.
Shout out Jeremy.
Shout out to Jeremy. That's a

(36:06):
good time actually for the third
of the four FINA shout outs. So
this one's from Jeremy. When
tokenize time leaderboard on
Cauldron? Please, BCH, please
Cauldron, please, BCH podcast,
100,000 dev rules well spent
there. Thanks, Jeremy. I don't
know if you guys want to answer
that.
I think we should pull Jeremy on

(36:27):
the stage and have a pitchy idea
and then we can comment on it.
Jeremy, I've invited you. Let's
get you on. So your shout out's
got you a place on the mic and
you can, you can.
So I can just say we are
actually always looking to find
new ways to visualize and to kind
of show different things and

(36:50):
individual tokens, doing stuff.
I mean, Arbor Update was all
about this. Showing new sets of
data and just making everything
more available. So yeah, I love
this idea, Jeremy. So yeah.
It's also something I'm not sure
if it's, I've never seen this
before. And you know, whether
it's a great idea or not, you

(37:13):
know, in the long term, who
knows, right? I don't know. But
in the short term, what I think
is it could theoretically spy
into a good thing. It could
spy into something very
interesting. It's novel. I
don't think I've seen this on
anywhere else. And that's the
kind of thing that, you know,
novel things, let's face it,

(37:35):
that's what DeFi is, right?
That's what attracts that first
wave. It's the novelty. It's new.
And I think that's the thing
that's really interesting. I
think it stands a lot more
chance of gaining traction with
these different communities
that are looking for that new
thing as opposed to just chasing
the trend.

(37:56):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think someone needs to
describe the idea for the
audience.
So the idea here is, so with
the Finnish token, it
represents at a very bare
scale, the value of the
token. So I'm going to use
this as a token to represent
some of my time, consultation

(38:16):
or whatever. And this is
something that's being used as
that. And so Jeremy was very
interested by this idea too. He
thought, wow, this is great.
You could have different people
within the community that are
more well known that instead of
doing fundraisers or things like
that, they could actually
spend that money. So he

(38:38):
thought, theoretically, if you
really wanted someone to help
you with your project, you
wanted someone to help you with
Cauldron and you wanted a
developer and you didn't have
the right person or the
content creator for that, then
you could go and buy their
token and that token is
literally worth 30 minutes of

(39:00):
their time, 60 hours of their
time, whatever. And then you
could actually use a token to
spend that time.
And so Jeremy was thinking
about this idea of having a
speaker. I just finished my
sentence and Jeremy can say if
that's correct or not, and
that's in detail, is what
Jeremy was thinking about is

(39:21):
having a separate page for
those special tokens where it's
a utility token where you're
literally paying for someone's
time and Jeremy would release
his token and you can make a
statement and you would buy the
tokens or you're more likely to
buy the tokens of people that
you trust, people that have
high value, people that you

(39:43):
think at a certain point in the
future you would appreciate
being able to access their time
services and skills. So,
Jeremy, maybe you could chime
in and add a few words to that.
Can you guys hear me?
Loud and clear.
Okay. All right. Yes.
Well, generally, yeah, that was
the idea. So, Jeremy, I think

(40:04):
that's a good point. I think
you're in a situation where he
can issue new coins,
essentially an advance, like a
loan against his own future
time to get capital because he
can sell them on the DEX for
BCH and then if people want
more of his time as a
consultant or to help with

(40:26):
whatever project, they can buy
his token, right? And that
means that he can issue more
coins. Of course, he can't go
crazy. If he issues too many,
then everybody wants some of his
time and then suddenly his other
obligations, he can't hold up.
But if that's happening or if
he's making money some other way,
he can then buy back his own

(40:48):
shares of his own time,
essentially, right, on the DEX
as well too. So it operates in
both directions. And the more I
thought about this, the more I
thought about it. I don't know
if I've got it all set up yet,
but I'm thinking through that.
If I did that, if both of you
guys did that, if more of the
ecosystem did that, then we

(41:10):
would like money is always a way
of transacting time, but if we
had a direct market for it,
which you could see on a
separate page or even just a
filter on the list of tokens,
then anybody new to the
ecosystem would essentially be
the most important economic
actors in the BCH space. So you
could then just quickly get to

(41:32):
the bottom of, okay, who's
making stuff happen? Because the
more somebody was making stuff
happen, the more people would
want to buy their coin, right?
And if you listed it not just as
the coin with the details of the
TVL and the price, but you then
also had links to their website,
their Twitter profile.
That could be in the coin

(41:54):
itself.
But it would be ideal if it was
all like you could see when you
went on there, okay, here's a
couple of links to follow up on
what is this person doing,
because the DEX is already
getting a lot of visibility. And
at the moment it would be hard
for people to figure out what is
going on with all the different

(42:15):
coins, which is part of the fun,
right? They can find a Fogg
token or Bitcoin Cash TV or
Fiendish, and they can dig into
the details of the coins and
then they can link to understand
what's going on by helping them
link to more information about
each of those coins. I know you
can already click on the coins
and then click on the website and

(42:37):
see people have written the
description or how it works or
everything like that. But just
because the DEX is going to have
so much visibility and it would
be a unique innovation in
Bitcoin Cash if we started all
the updates on chain
transactions. And that's a unique
concept to all of crypto that
takes no new technology. We

(42:58):
already have all the technology
there for it. And I think it
could catch on as an idea. I
think it would be really
interesting. Tokenized time kind
of has a nice ring to it. So
that's my basic idea.
I love the idea. And I would
love to see more. I like the
Fiendish token. And I would love

(43:19):
to see more time-based tokens.
Also because they actually have
something real valid behind it.
It's not like a meme token. Time
is valuable, right?
Exactly.
So I'm open to testing it out.
But we need more time tokens in
that case. We can't just have a
filter for Fiendish.

(43:40):
Exactly. Exactly. So I am
planning.
I'm okay with that.
You just went out into the
room.
You just time going through the
room.
Yeah.
I have thought about it. And I
am working through it because I
want to do it also sort of as
the podcast, right? Because I
could do it as just Jeremy. But
that's kind of got limited

(44:02):
scope, right? Whereas if I do
it for the podcast, then people
will also be able to trade in
the podcast coins probably if
they need some help from Jet on
something or just generally the
resources of the podcast, right?
If they want to promote
something, then we can do it
with a filter and we might get
it set up with a special clause
or whatever so that you can send

(44:24):
in a certain amount of the
token and then if you want to
guarantee that we will answer
your question live on the show
or if you want to shout out
something or you want to make a
particular comment, then we can
also have a way that you can pay
in that BCH, I'm going to call
it pod coin, right? Pod coin.
Which you won't be able to do

(44:46):
with BCH or necessarily
anything else, right? So I'm
still working through the
details in my mind, but just to
float this idea with you. So in
a couple of weeks when it maybe
comes together, if we could do a
leaderboard or again, even just
a filter would work, but I think
a separate page would be a
super cool test.

(45:07):
I think you should just create
like a telegram group with
interested stakeholders and we
could do that.
Perfect.
I love the pod coin.
I want the pod coin.
But I'm going to go create the pod coin.
And just so I understand, right,
it's that if you have your coin

(45:28):
fiend, right, and if you buy 100k
fiend, then you get a shout out,
right?
It's actually emerald. So it's
100,000 emerald. If it was 100,000
fiend, it would be 100,000.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean emerald.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the 100,000
emerald. So basically, there's a
giveaway. So everyone that's in

(45:50):
here and retweeted the spaces and
was here for the entire thing gets
60,000 emeralds. And the idea is
here with 100,000, you can use 100,000
to do a shout out. So live on
there. And there will also be as a
comment to the spaces to basically
try and create as much value as
possible for this token too and
make it so anyone that's holding
this, there's actually utility in

(46:12):
both tokens, just different.
Fantastic. So I actually bought
300,000 emerald yesterday. So I
would like to make three small
shout outs right now. First, it's
to Folding Cash and to the CTO of
the Folding at Home project who in

(46:33):
the event that happened that
actually transaction fees on
Bitcoin, which they originally
used in this Stanford project to
just use a distributed network of
computers to render different
proteins and do cancer research
decentralized, they came to the

(46:54):
event that guys, we can't no
longer reward our users which do
this stuff for free actually with
Bitcoin, with BTC. So he took it
upon himself to change chains to
Bitcoin Cash to something that
worked and the Folding Cash,

(47:16):
Folding Coin project have now
moved to Bitcoin Cash and I'm
super bullish on this and yeah,
big shout out to him. Second
shout out, it's the Badgers,
Badgers.cash. This is a real super
useful and technically
impressive application that I

(47:37):
think needs more attention. So big
shout out to him. And thirdly, my
third shout out for 100K Emerald,
it's to you guys. It's to every
single Shadow Wizard in the
entire world. I had a talk at the
BCH Festival Nigeria last weekend
and it was so amazing speaking to

(47:58):
the people there. Every single
Shadow Wizard out there doing
DeFi magic every day, spreading
awareness, cooking potions and
casting spells. Shout out to you
guys, you are amazing and you are
the reason why we are actually
accelerating this decentralized
economy. Oh man, great shout

(48:19):
out. Great news as well. And yeah,
just mentioning about Badgers, so
the person behind this, Sayoshi
Nakamari, a really great guy,
really, really great asset to the
BCH community. If you want to
listen to, if anyone listening,
if you want to catch up a little
bit about that, he was actually
on episode two of Finnish and
Friends. So go and check that

(48:40):
out, go and check out Badgers.
cash. And as Halper said, this
is something you should be
absolutely checking out and
supporting. Great. I see, yeah,
time is, we're getting kind of
close and I really want to make
sure we're on the dot today as
an exception because we've been
running in the past. But you
know, there's a couple of things
that I definitely would like to

(49:01):
discuss. So, you know, just
thinking about Bitcoin Cash,
where we're at today, like what
is the outlook for Bitcoin Cash
in 2025 and where does Rift and
Labs fit in that and how are
you seeing the state of the
ecosystem and where it's going?
I heard before some exponential
growth, but maybe you could go
into a little bit more detail
into that. Yeah, that grew. I

(49:25):
think Bitcoin Cash is a better
DeFi platform in my opinion. So
I think when people start to
realize that and realize that
you can actually use it for
DeFi, they will see a massive
growth. And the reason I say
that is because it's just so

(49:46):
snappy. It's so fast. If you
ever tried DeFi on ICVM like
blockchain, you will notice
that every time you're trying
to interact with a contract,
it's like, okay, you have to
accept that this contract
fiddles with your wallet and
then you have to wait for a
block time for it to confirm in
a block. And then you do a

(50:08):
trade and then you have to wait
for it to confirm in a block.
While in the Bitcoin Cash, it
just goes into a mempool. It's
super snappy and it's just so
much better user experience
that I think it's enough to
draw people over. So we are
definitely going to see a huge
growth in Bitcoin Cash. That's
my opinion.
Yeah. And I mean, end game is

(50:30):
that Bitcoin Cash, BCH, it is
actually peer-to-peer
electronic cash. And, you know,
there's actual people in this
world who have tricked their own
brain into thinking that
Bitcoin is something else, that
it's some kind of rare earth
precious metal substitute. And

(50:51):
let's just face it, the total
market cap of the actual rare
earth gold is 20 trillion,
right? And sometimes people
maybe could ask themselves,
what is the market cap of fiat?
It's not 20 trillion. It's a lot
more. So, I mean, the reason why

(51:12):
we're here, the reason why
Satoshi created the Bitcoin
white paper and started all
this, he was not to create gold,
right? Gold exists and gold has
value. I mean, you can use it to
gold has value for many reasons.
It's nice. It's shiny. You can
use it to insulate space
systems and satellites and as a
conductor. And yeah, so gold has

(51:34):
value and money has value. And
yeah, crypto is one of those and
not the other.
Yeah, that's great. Okay. So,
looking forward to a 2025 where
DeFi, when people become aware
that DeFi is possible and
Bitcoin Cash, which is much

(51:55):
snappier, much faster and not
slow and like other coins, that
this is going to lead to an
explosion of growth. And I'm
really looking forward to seeing
this. I'm really looking forward
to seeing you guys, the success
and the continued success in
everything that Rifton Labs is
doing and concocting. And I just
thought of something actually,

(52:15):
you guys, you wrote something in
a recent tweet, right? That
something big is brewing, stay
frosty wizards. Is there any
hints? Can we get any hint of
what's that about? You know,
what are you hinting to?
Well, something big is
definitely brewing. And what we
can say is that people interested

(52:36):
in this should rewatch the
Bitcoin.com interview with
Corbyn Fraser from earlier this
year.
Oh, man, I'm just writing this
down. It's an absolute fire. So
Jeremy, we've got to sit down.
We've got to figure this out.
Maybe we can talk about it over

(52:57):
the poker tomorrow.
I watched that interview when it
came out, but now I'm trying to
think back. You know, it was
like six months ago. I can't
remember what exactly we said.
So we're going to have to double
check that for sure.
Yeah.
I'm going to be checking that
one this weekend to figure out
what's the secret here. Cool.

(53:19):
Exciting. Yeah. Last point. So
you guys, you both attendees at
BCH Bliss. We had a wicked time
together there. It was, I think,
I hope you agree it was just
awesome to get all these
wonderful builders, developers
and Bitcoin Cash proponents in a
room together and talking about
this amazing technology. Assuming
you felt the same way that I did
that it was a purely lovely
emotional experience. Will you

(53:41):
guys be getting tickets for BCH
Bliss 2025? And will you be
joining there?
BCH Bliss was the most fun
conference I had ever, I think.
So definitely going again. So
I'll see you guys there.
Of course.
I'll see you there.
We'll bring even more merch this
time and even more socks and we
will have even more fun seeing

(54:02):
you guys there.
Oh, Jesus. There we go,
Jeremy. So we better up the
expected number of seats we're
filling, huh?
Doing our best, mate.
It's really great to hear that
because you guys are really
important in the ecosystem.
You're creating a lot of
activity, I think, that between
Rift and Labs and General

(54:24):
Protocols that we've got two
really great companies offering
sort of, I don't know, competing
products but also
complementaries to discuss.
Like, is it all just going to
help bring in more people into
the ecosystem and raise all
those boats together?
So I'm really, really looking
forward to BCH Bliss 2025.
I'm really looking forward to
meeting you guys again in

(54:45):
person. I know you've invited,
so you're, you had an invite.
You invited everyone in the
group to come to Norway in
January. Maybe, and what was
happening in January?
In January, we are having a
little party in Oslo, Norway

(55:11):
just celebrating the success of
Caldron and the launch of
MUSD. It is invite only, so
very, very limited number of
seats. So send an email to
hello at riftlandlabs.com to
tell us that you're interested
in this.

(55:32):
Yeah, just on that, I do
actually want to come, but for
other reasons, I can't travel at
the moment, but that might be
expired by the time. What
actual date is it and what date
do I need to let you guys know
by?
Just let us know as soon as
possible. The date of the event
is 11, it's 1101.25. So it's

(55:55):
11 from January 2025.
All right. That might be a
close run thing, but I'll see
what I can do. I'll be in touch
with you guys.
Yeah, it is invite only, and
you're most invited, Jeremy.
Fantastic. Jeremy in his
pod coin. I'm looking forward to
that. Yeah, I'd love to be able

(56:16):
to join. Unfortunately, I've got
work commitments, so I won't be
able to, but I'll be there in
spirit, that's for sure, and at
the very latest, I'll be seeing
you guys in the next episode.
And which actually coincides
with the final fiendish shout
outs. BCH bliss is the BCH

(56:37):
conference to attend next year.
Thank you, Jay Z. Another
hundred thousand emerald very
well spent and being put to good
use. Yeah, so I said we're going
to make a change this episode
and we're going to end on time
as the hour comes to a close on
Phoenix Friends episode five.
Thank you so much for joining
us, and however, for joining

(56:57):
today, make sure you're
following them this instant on
Twitter at Dagger and helpful
with the ace belt with a four
and if you wizards leave me of
your cash token address as a
comment or DM if you want to
keep keep that private. A
fiendish token will be sent to
each of you as a small token of
gratitude for spending the hour
with us today for all your

(57:19):
listeners. If you enjoyed the
show and want to show your
gratitude, you can find the
link in the description of the
Dagger and the cash tokens
addresses in the description of
our Twitter profile, and there
is a will be a QR code in the
comments. The next episode of
finishing friends is at one
o'clock the same time next week
and is featuring Zap. It's Z CEO
Rumit Goswami and CTO called

(57:40):
deep growl, and they'll be
joining to talk about the Zapp
it while it very ecosystem
gaming for tokens and their
recipes for success in this
nascent P to P cash market for
the next week. We'll be
talking about the future of
fiendish tokens into the juke
box and hit play. At least one
token is required, turning one
token eyes minute of fiendish

(58:01):
time into an entire 60 minutes
and sometimes more of the
latest Bitcoin cash news and
updates. Finish token is
available at Cauldron swap with
links in the comments. So if
you haven't already go and
experience Cauldron decks, go
on there. Look at all the 230
tokens and grab yourself some
emeralds so you can also do
some shout outs on the show

(58:23):
with rum it next week. This was
finishing. Oh, really important
for those that are listening to
the recording is a special
treat. I'm going to play a BCH
song. So if you listen to the
recording at the end of this,
there's going to be a couple of
minutes of a cool BCH song made
by one of our finishing friends
John Gold. So enjoy that. This
was finishing friends. I wish
you all a lovely P to P cash

(58:45):
monsters. A very good morning.
Good day and good night. Take
care. Take care. Take care. Take

(59:18):
care. Take care. Thank you.

(59:48):
future grow
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(01:00:36):
oh bitcoin cash connects the world that helps our future grow
oh

(01:01:01):
it's not just for the wealthy it's for the ones in me it's power for the powerless
to help them to succeed and i'm proud to use bca's today where freedom lights the way
that's secure and built to last the strongest every day from the seas to the farmlands to the

(01:01:28):
mountains capped with snow bitcoin cash connects the world that helps our future
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oh