#8 - Jacob Stelter talks Goblins Cash, Perpetual Options & AMMs

Fiendish & Friends #8 - Jacob Stelter talks Goblins Cash, AMM, Perpetual Options as we explore smartBCH,

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Yes, everyone that's listening, hi all you Liberty lovers and welcome to Fiendish and Friends,

(00:05):
episode 8 where Jacob Stelter, founder and president of Goblins Cash joins us to talk
about his platform Dex which is on base Binance Smart Chain and Smart BCH, talk about perpetual
options and one of his favorite subjects AMMs and we'll figure out what actually is an AMM
and yeah so hi Jacob thanks so much for joining us so yeah it's great to have you here.

(00:28):
Yeah no excited to be here so yeah no AMMs are definitely yeah it's like hard to
hard to grasp because there's tons of different curves there's the Uniswap V2 curve there's the
stablecoin swap curve like curve finance Uniswap V3 is like a whole nother beast with concentrated

(00:55):
liquidity and then like what I'm also excited about coming out in the future is Uniswap V4
so like you've got hooks that are customizable code that's about to come out into the wild here
soon so yeah no AMMs is definitely a tough subject but it's fun and it's worthwhile so.

(01:17):
Yeah okay and I'm sure many people here will be interested to learn about that so let's
let's take it right back right on a high level so before we go into AMMs which you know what
Goblin's Cash is using like let's just talk about actually Goblin's Cash at the very high level
like what is Goblin's Cash? Right right so Goblin's Cash so it first started as a reserve

(01:45):
currency back in 2022 we forked the Olympus Dow I don't know if you remember the Omen like wonderland
days of the 2021 bull run and then from there we were kind of iterating on our products we were
trying to bring Perpetualist to Smart BCH and a couple of other things like one of the things

(02:09):
that I'll get into like later on in the podcast was I was trying to bring BCH options like that
was like one thing that on chain I was like the one thing that I saw that was like missing
in the BCH universe and it just always bugged me that there was like Bitcoin and Ethereum options
but there was never BCH options but Goblin's Cash right now is a meta dex that is trying to align

(02:37):
different stakeholders so it's trying to align traders it's trying to align liquidity providers
and then it's trying to align token holders together and that's what we're working on and
that's what we're trying to build and like we hope to have that live and ready by May, June 2025

(03:04):
and like right now we have a concentrated liquidity dex on those three chains and then
we also have a bridge a hyperlane bridge which is permissionless so like right now you could launch
you can launch for like any type of token that you want on Smart BCH on finance smart chain on base

(03:27):
and like you can bridge it to any other chain in like a permissionless manner like it takes about
like 10 minutes to create a route so like going back to the days where like where we had like
bridge issues on Smart BCH with like Coin Flex and a couple other things like Potomac Swap and a

(03:49):
couple other things like now it's permissionless and yeah. Which is the critical part right?
permissionless this is where it all went wrong we're using Coin Flakes because this was a
centralized permissioned bridge between the BCH world and Smart BCH which of course as we all know

(04:09):
now you know this wasn't known back then this was there was an assumption made that this was
not so easily essentially controlled so just to just to walk back a little bit so you you know just
to sort of summarize there with what you were looking for you were trying to bring perpetuals

(04:31):
and to Smart BCH you really you know what you saw was that all these other chains of BTC and Ethereum
that they were offering options and BCH wasn't so you know in without getting lost in the weeds
just sort of high leveled it just just explain to anyone like what is an option what is this
why is this so important why why did you why were you so interested about working on bringing this

(04:54):
to the Bitcoin Cash ecosystem? Yeah so an option at like a high level so it's a derivative so like
anytime you buy Bitcoin Cash on like Coinbase, Binance any of those exchanges you're buying it
at the spot price and then a derivative there's four different types of derivatives

(05:17):
one you have futures the second derivative you have forwards so you can kind of think of BCH bull
as like a forwards exchange and then third you have swaps swaps are a little bit harder
like to understand but like you're just exchanging obligations with each with each other and then

(05:40):
fourth is an option and basically what an option is and why I like it so much is it is it's a risk
minimizer so it like it protects you with your AMM positions so like that's what I kind of wanted
to bring on the podcast is like when people think that they're providing liquidity it's not like

(06:04):
risk free it's not a free lunch in terms of like the passive view like you're you have a trading
position and the trading position is concave on the graph so you're both you're short both assets
and the liquidity pool and what an option does it's convex so you can put a little money down

(06:26):
and you have exposure to either the upside or downside and and like you can get creative with
option strategies which which is cool and goes beyond spot trading is like you can bet that the
price will go up and down at the same time like with spot trading you usually have to pick a

(06:47):
direction with options you can actually craft strategies where where you can trade something
else it's called volatility and you can go long or short volatility so I like that it's not necessarily
connected with the price the option and that like it can minimize it it minimizes risk in the sense

(07:13):
like right like right now no one expected the bitcoin cash and ethereum to go down so dramatically
and bitcoin passed 100 000 with like put options which gives you the right to sell an asset at a
specific price like you would have been protected basically and with any amm position that you put

(07:38):
on if you buy the offsetting options you can be protected so that's what I kind of like about
I mean that's what I like about options I mean there's a lot of things to like about options but
like one of them's just like the risk it minimizes risk like it minimizes risk but it's not free

(07:59):
right like you minimize risk but at the same time you have to pay a premium to those liquidity
providers or to those option sellers and yeah yeah yeah so thinking about like how what bch bull
is offering which is quite well known in the ecosystem so from from sort of a high level

(08:23):
understanding this is you know this is something that sounds similar to that in the sense that
when you're when you're placing a long or you're shorting whatever asset it is whether it's bitcoin
cash or bdc and then you're paying a premium right or getting a premium depending on which
way the market sentiment is is there is there a difference there technically or

(08:48):
um or is this sort of a similar sort of world of what you're what you're talking about now
so um so like a forward and a future like at the end of the at the end of the contract so for bch
bull I believe it's between like two hours and 90 days on any type of contract that you can open up
um like it has to execute like and that's the nice thing too like with the security guarantees

(09:15):
that bch bull provides but like for futures and forwards you can think of futures and forwards
is kind of the same thing but like once that contract ends like it has to execute like you
have to trade bch at that specific price and another thing that's kind of different with

(09:35):
options compared to like forwards or futures is like you can't get liquidated so like the premium
that you put down um is like your max loss like if you buy a call option and you put down like 0.05
bch that's your max loss right there that uh what's bch trading out right now like 420 so if you buy

(09:59):
a call option for bch for the next month at 430 for 0.05 bch like and bch finishes that say it
finishes at 350 your max loss is uh 0.05 bch and with like futures and forwards and with leverage

(10:23):
say like 20x to 30x leverage like you can be liquidated and lose everything like on a three
percent move on a five percent move on a uh 10 percent 20 move um so like that's another thing
to like about options compared to uh compared to forwards and uh futures but i'd say like options

(10:47):
is kind of like the next iteration of derivatives like you need a futures and forwards market first
before you can move on to options so i think bch has that we have like a futures and forwards market
but uh besides uh bit.com which which i can't which um yeah i'm not allowed to use this based

(11:10):
on kyc and their requirements and stuff but uh there's not a there's not a bch options place
right now currently and that that's what i'm that's what i'm trying to build i'm still not there yet
but um i mean there definitely needs to be a place where bch options can fit so um yeah sure

(11:38):
where there's pieces missing within the puzzle this is where the entrepreneur the early person
can come in it's hard work as i'm sure you're figuring out and then working um it's not easy
um but it also gives you that first mover advantage so if you if you when that that
person that sees identifies that missing piece comes in uh and manages to get it right then of

(11:59):
course then uh there's there's a lot of reward there that's there's possible so um that's great
so um so and how does that so i think we've got a pretty good idea of uh of options and and then
where does the amm fit into this and and you know what does amm mean on a high level and and how
how are you using that along with with the how do you want to leverage the amm to execute with

(12:24):
options so like an amm like what i have at goblins cash cauldron.quest uniswap v2 etc um when that
person puts on a liquidity position they're they're selling a perpetual so in uh on the
in cauldron.quest at uniswap v2's case they're selling a uh they're selling a call option and

(12:50):
they're selling a put option perpetually from zero to infinity um and in exchange for that
when people trade on those specific pools they get those liquidity providers get a premium so
so it's it's kind of like the reverse of it it's kind of like the reverse of options it's kind of

(13:15):
like an incomplete options exchange if to make if that makes sense like when you first put on an
options position you usually pay a premium to the option seller but in like liquidity providers
case or amm's different types of amm's cases like you don't pay a premium until you put on a trade

(13:36):
right that's what the yield that's where the yield comes from the trading fees uh that right
that uh traders put on and uh and like what i was bringing up about like caudic and and
like what i was trying to build on top of goblins cash uh was uh like their project recognized that

(14:02):
it was like an options like anytime you put on a liquidity position it's actually an options position
especially on uniswap v3 and goblins cash where you can put concentrated liquidity at specific
price points on the curve uh but like one thing to know like one thing to know about like goblins

(14:22):
cash and uniswap v3 that kind of like that kind of makes it easier to understand is that it's just
like uniswap v2 except it's along a specific uh price point like it's the x times y equals k from
420 to 430 dollars or 420 to 440 dollars so it's it's just like it's just like a full range

(14:52):
liquidity decks but it's for specific price points it's that x times y equals k over a specific uh
price threshold between like between whatever you want it to be between whatever price point you
want it to be so um it's it's an options exchange like ams are options exchanges they've just like

(15:18):
reversed how the premiums paid out so the premiums paid out through a trade versus through um through
a user trying to minimize their risk but or speculating they could be speculating too like
they could think like like right now people could think like bch could go to like 500 bucks and like

(15:40):
they might want to buy a bunch of call options because they know it's liquidation free versus uh uh
perpetual um the one thing i wanted to say about perpetuals too when i was like iterating with
goblins cash um there's a certain and and i see that risk and that's like a risk that i take and

(16:03):
accept when i use like bch bull gmx or any other platform is there's oracle risk so like when i was
trying to build that out for smart bch like smart bch didn't have access to chain link oracles and
that was like a huge issue and uh um and like most of the hacks and the stuff that you see in defi

(16:26):
it comes from oracle manipulation um and that's one of the cool things about ams is just like the
oracle is the oracle for an amm that's just based on the reserves of the assets right it's based on
the uh invariant equation the x times y equals k so like you get the bch price of 420 dollars based

(16:50):
on how much bch and how much usdt's and that cool so um yeah yeah
yeah okay cool thanks so much um and so you guys started so say if i'm wrong um that in 2022 this
is when goblins uh cash this is when the white paper is released if i remember correctly um

(17:14):
that was also when i i think remember the dex was launched um if it was late no no no no no
it was uh sorry i didn't mean to cut you off too fast uh no we were uh yeah no we were uh
yeah no we were speaking of like mistakes and like trust and centralized and and you got to remember
during this time period too like this was terry usd like terry usd hadn't imploded yet either um so

(17:42):
um it was a reserve currency it was uh it was a reserve currency kind of based on own and time and
and wonderland and gob was gob was backed by like one flex usd and it was a reserve currency
usd and uh and like we sold bonds to create protocol owned liquidity and uh yeah it was just

(18:07):
the yeah we backed our token with flex usd and it was just a mistake yeah it was just a very big
mistake trusting uh centralized stable coins and something that the industry still has to deal with
with like usdt and a couple of a couple other centralized stable coins out there like usdc

(18:31):
like but uh yeah we launched as like a reserve currency and uh and yeah it didn't work out
in the sense like yeah it didn't work out based on a couple of the decisions that we made and
and uh yeah just a couple of the design decisions and backing our coin with flex usd was definitely

(18:54):
not the way to go but uh from there we tried to iterate with perpetuals and then we ran into like
the oracle issues with like chainlink and and uh um and from there like we pivoted to uh options
and like we ran into like other issues same thing like oracle issues and like that's one of the

(19:18):
duties of uh amm is like it it solves like the oracle problem um based on yeah it's also oracle
problem because it's just math and it's based on like then variant curves and and uh and this last
year i guess uh march uh april 2024 like we launched our concentrated liquidity solution

(19:45):
on smart bch and then we had it and then we had our next problem right like how do you bridge
how do you bridge and expand the new chains when when no bridge providers like layer zero or
any of the bridge providers want to bridge on bridge to smart bch because of for like

(20:06):
profitability concerns and so like we found hyperlane and we started working on hyperlane
which is a permissionless solution to bridge anywhere um anywhere you want and we expanded
to uh base and binance smart chain and uh we have bch over there on base on binance smart chain

(20:29):
it's binance type bch and then over on base chain it's actually universal bch um and i've been trying
for a while to get you bch to trade on aerodrome um haven't had much success yet there but like i'm
trying to spread bch as much as i can to uh different evm names like that's the one thing

(20:51):
that i see bitcoin doing better than btc doing better than bch right now is uh is it's on so
many different chains like it's actually kind of like jumped from like from like the issues like
yeah it has the one megabyte block but like that's what it like cb coinbase bitcoin is like the biggest

(21:15):
is the best trading venue on base like there's hundreds of millions of dollars going through
there and and wrap bitcoin and uh yeah like bitcoin's on like 60 not 60 that's probably
small number but like 80 to like 100 different evm chains well like bch like we're still trying

(21:36):
to get it to many different evm chains like we have cash tokens on like bch main chain but uh
this is this is a this is a really great conversation in itself because this is something
i think that there are two very distinct opinions i i've heard of this um that i uh about this that
i think is quite valid and um and i'd love to hear your your thoughts afterwards about you know

(22:02):
why what you see the benefits are so on the one side there is um the as you see it the the benefit
of sort of being on as many chains as possible because this gives exposure so if there's tokens
if there's bch on other chains then people are exposed to this they see this they're made aware
of this and therefore they're more likely to to come on to actually the the bch network um which

(22:29):
which seems to me is it sounds logical and the counter argument i'd also agree it sounds logical
is that um the reason why btc went on to all these different chains was because of high fees
originally and so it was actually basically so that it could still be used but the issue is with
that the counter issue is why it sort of set btc doom is as the all the network activity moves on

(22:51):
to other chains that means the security model is broken and at a certain point then uh the system
sort of set itself up for collapse and the coins will be floating as a sort of a uh a sort of a
pet rock as you like or you know at a certain point a valueless uh token um so yeah what's
what's your take on those two views and why why what are you seeing is like the main benefits of

(23:14):
um or do you see any additional benefits of having bch exposed onto other chains um
yeah no i i get what i get what you're saying on that like uh um like even and like even for
my case when like i started on the ethereum network like ethereum started to be broken in the sense

(23:38):
that i was paying like 100 200 just to do a simple transaction and like i started going on to the
layer twos um to like escape the high fees and it's uh and i mean i i would break it out in the
sense of like there's one like the token itself uh bitcoin cash and then there's the network

(24:02):
the bitcoin cash network and like bitcoin cash yeah like getting bitcoin cash on as many chains
and exchanges as possible i think it's only like a net uh net upside like positive um
but i mean there's like different architectures too that i would have to think through a little

(24:24):
bit like evm's a different architecture than what's on uh btc and bch like with the utxo
architecture that's a little bit different um but i i mean i get i get your point on that where uh
i get your point on that and where uh where would i mean the ideal case like the idealistic case

(24:49):
would be everything would be on like uh yeah like everything would be on bitcoin cash and
and like it would all yeah it would all kind of like work out of the box in terms of defi
but like defi right now like the majority of defi right now is on evm's um and solana and like a
couple other exchanges or and a couple other different chains like uh um cosmos um there's

(25:18):
a one called move like i i don't see any like downside to getting bch to as many different uh
to as many different networks and chains as possible um because like yeah i i don't see it
as and like the same with smart bch like i know some people like won't even touch smart bch like

(25:40):
anymore like that i don't think it's mutually exclusive like i think you can use both like cash
tokens on the bch network and like you can also use adapts and applications on evm and on solana
and on move or on cosmos or any of the other aptos or sleet or any of the other places so uh

(26:09):
yeah uh i i would break it out in terms of like the token versus the network like yeah i think
the bitcoin network is broken for sure with like the one megabyte block size and and a couple
a couple of the other things with the ordinals and and a couple yeah i would break it out in
terms of the network versus the token um yeah yeah sure thinking of net like the network so i was

(26:35):
actually looking at someone asked a question um about what is the state of smart bch you've
already went into a little bit there so for for those of you that are listening aren't aware
uh smart bch was a side chain that was set up for allowing an evm smart chain the daps the defy
for bch and it back then the original idea was that it was going to be miner powered so it was

(26:56):
going to be tapping into the security network of the bch model and it was all great it was all
booming and uh and unfortunately the the link between these two chains was through a company
called coin flex um which for there's a whole other episode on its own but essentially blew up
and uh froze all of the uh the money that was on that bridge essentially uh destroying that bridge

(27:25):
uh more or less between um between bch and smart bch and of course there were some some some other
bridges that were set up to try and to link these two chains for that original plan
um of of using and tapping into the bch and sort of being a permission this decentralized
bridge between the two never um never happened as far as i understand now and do quote me if i'm

(27:46):
wrong so i looked at the the total value locked smart bch um the total value lock has just
plummeted it looks very close to zero now um and what i you know now you've moved on to other
chains and i'm seeing your your um the liquidity on goblins you know as over the last month has
been a couple of million um so is is is that where is the majority of that um liquidity coming from

(28:12):
now is that still in smart bch or is that from from the other chains you're tapping into um the
majority of our liquidity right now is on uh smart bch but uh um yeah like kind of getting into and
the and and you're right in the sense that the tvl has been has been going down um but like there's

(28:36):
different things that you can do to like so like you can't like not you can't but uh um like there's
different things like that you can control and like can't control like in terms of like the sbch
because like right now the sbch is on back just based on mark lamb and coin flex taking the
uh 10 10 million 20 million or whatever amount of money it was but like there's different ways that

(29:02):
you can minimize that risk through like amms like with liquidity positions and yield farming and with
options like there's different ways to like there's some things like that there's some things like
like the stuff that you can control like you can minimize to like risk to uh like risk reduction

(29:25):
um but uh in terms of like rtvo like one of the things that i'm building right now and like what
i see missing in the goblin's cash like ecosystem with uh concentrated liquidity is like we haven't
aligned like all the stakeholders yet like we haven't aligned so we've aligned the liquidity

(29:47):
providers and the traders uh together like if you trade on goblin's cash like the liquidity
providers will be compensated and then the liquidity providers will be incentivized to uh
to create like tighter liquidity but like we're missing the token equation from it so like right

(30:09):
now we have a staking solution or like a part of the a part of the trading fees goes to goblins
cash fakers but um we're missing we're missing more of like the alignment with new protocols
coming on the smart bch and being able to bootstrap on goblins cash and we're missing

(30:32):
uh more alignment with our token in the sense that like 100 like what arrow have you heard of
aerodrome before and uh velodrome not before you'd mentioned it yeah no uh yeah yeah like they've
they've created a system where like 100 of the trading fees goes to the token holders and the

(30:53):
token holders they've solved the i'm pretty sure you probably heard of dow's like decentralized
was autonomous organizations like and like one of the issues with uh dow's is just like you have
passive holders and like on smart bch like you've got a lot of like passive holders now in the sense

(31:13):
that like people that have like forgot about their positions or have like moved on to other things
and like you have passive and and you have active holders and basically the system they created is
like with the token um you can you can lock up the token and turn it into an nft it's called like ve

(31:35):
arrow and ve velo and uh they reward like active participation and they kind of with uh trading
fees from like specific pools well from specific pools that you vote on so like there's a lot of
user engagement from that point of view um i don't know if you remember like the misplop days on smart

(31:59):
bch but like there was always like the issue of like where emissions go um and that's kind of what
of like that's what's solved with uh this system um the reason why like i can't put it out right away
is there's issues with like licensing and stuff like that um that's why like it's in the may

(32:21):
june time frame but uh like that's something i see that could be implemented on yeah on amms on like
bitcoin cash like like liquidity providers are like like one thing that really uh put ethereum
and defy in the spotlight um back in 2019 2020 and like put it on put it out to the universe was the

(32:47):
the addition of yield farming from uh first started with compound protocol which was like a lending
protocol and then it started with sushi swap but uh like there needs to be additional compensation
to liquidity providers besides uh trading fees in order to like grow at like a rapid pace and like

(33:10):
i have a farming solution right now but it's not necessarily uh it's not necessarily fully aligned
yet but um uh yeah yeah but uh yeah that's what i'm working on right now um just trying to like
make the decks better and like from there um start adding like i'm an active user on panoptic which

(33:36):
is like the first uh dat with perpetual auctions um and the uniswap d3 uh ecosystem but uh yeah i'm
just trying to make the experience better for like goblins cash users right now and like one of the
things is like i need to align like all the stakeholders together um and that's what i'm

(33:58):
trying to do like i okay i have a dex i have a bridge but like i'm missing the i'm missing the
uh token component and uh um like rewarding more active participation and uh uh
well that's actually one of the questions we had from an audience member was so just looking at
um so the total value locked so you can go into like defile lama is where i went to get this

(34:22):
statistics um so uh i'm just reading out from there so the the top of the peak was uh over the last uh
sorry 2022 was just under uh basically 40 million now we're down to uh around about one million so
that's you know you're talking about a 98 roughly uh loss of uh total market value of the smart bch

(34:44):
chain but and the way you're talking it sounds very much that you're you're seeing a future
um for this chain uh is that correct or is it rather that you know you're you see you see a
future in other chains but you still hope for a future in smart bch or you know what is the
outlook currently for that chain um in your eyes of course yeah yeah um i think uh

(35:11):
um so like there's an issue right now with sbch in terms of it being like dpeg right now like it's
about 10 15 uh percent off price right now um but uh i mean i see the future in other chains and i
hope there's a future in like smart bch and like i'm working for there to be a future in smart bch

(35:32):
um i've asked like the smart bch development team and i've asked from the chats just for like more
transparency around the sbch supply um like you can see right now just on the blockchain or on
smart scout about 49 000 to 50 000 bch is is with like sbch right now like they bought it back and

(35:57):
i think they're trying to get parity with bch so like there's about 18 000 and 19 000 still floating
around on the sbch network um so like i i see a future i see a future for the network uh i see a
future for the network and like i've run validators and and stakers but um yeah yeah i just i mean i'm

(36:25):
hoping for more transparency from the sbch side and i know not i was gonna say cheat fools uh it's
uh bch fools i know he's been back recently on sbch and uh and like yeah i've got the hyperlion
bridge connected to two different chains and like i'm researching stuff on on uniswap d4 like they

(36:48):
uniswap's actually behind the scenes they haven't like published this i don't believe
publicly yet they're working with hyperlion right now um and there's these i don't know how much
you know about like erc uh erc commits and tokens but like there's a erc there's a new erc standard

(37:09):
um erc 6909 that uh that allows for like resource locks that helps with like uniswap d4 and hooks
and stuff like that and like i could see i mean obviously like the holy grail would be like
a decentralized bridge connecting uh smart bch with uh bch and i think right now is

(37:33):
is a is an okay solution with like the atomic slots uh right now between sbch and bch um but
like i see i see a possibility of using those resource locks where uh i see a possibility of
using those resource locks and from hyperlion to potentially connect to bch uh main chain but

(37:59):
obviously there's like a lot of a lot of complexity and a lot of issues in the sense that you're dealing
with two different blockchain like architectures like you're dealing with utxo versus uh evm and
then uh yeah and then obviously security is a huge a huge concern uh especially after like coin flex and

(38:23):
and uh no one needs to be going through that again all right or anything anything even close to that
that is uh um which is why it's so important you know the the networks we build are sufficiently
decentralized permissionless uh and we don't have gatekeepers uh and really you know i think it's
always an interesting discussion you know it's not binary of course it's not perfect decentralization

(38:46):
um it's definitely a sliding scale but in the case in the case of the uh coin flex situation
that really was centralized as it could be so uh you know it shouldn't have been the lesson that
we had to learn but it was one that almost everyone in the community did have to learn
you mentioned that you know that you know the difference in the text you've got an evm based
chain um on the smart bch and um of course bch is utxo and all of the development you're going into

(39:14):
is in the evm base as i understand so maybe you know just from your perspective in a sentence like
like what are the benefits from your perspective of using and developing on evm
um the i mean you just get access to um so many different i mean so like in terms of bch like

(39:38):
dfi right now i think we're in like the 20 uh we're in like the 2018 2019 stage like right of where
ethereum was like i think it's a huge positive development with like the musd like musd i kind
of put an analogy with like die dai back in 2017 2018 and cauldron.quest like i'd put like with

(40:05):
unislot v1 unislot v2 but like with uh like evm like you just get access to so many different um
like you get access to so many different uh dfi tools that uh you can use that your exposure and
like uh and like the other thing too is like you get the i mean the one thing that's been like

(40:29):
i'm actually excited like for like the exo wallet that's going to be coming out like soon
i guess on bch like i mean from the wallet side like the wallet security is a lot better i think
i think on evm versus uh uh bch like i've been a part of like tera usd hacks and like a bunch of

(40:53):
different hacks on like evm chains and like hardware wallet is is like a must in order to
like survive in like the defi ecosystem and like i remember like i got i think i got like a guru
airdrop on on bch and i said it to my electron cache hardware i had a tent to my electron

(41:14):
cache like hardware wallet and like and like i couldn't use it like like ledger is not supporting
like cash tokens so like that that guru tokens just stuff right now and it's uh like for risking
big funds and money and uh and uh yeah there's just like a lot of opportunities and like evm

(41:38):
connects with solana now too um like yeah there's just a lot of there's a lot of daps there's a lot
of opportunities and there's uh um and and in some ways it can be easier just like managing
everything from one account versus like utxo it could be spread out between many different

(42:02):
addresses and stuff like that so um yeah yeah sure so all of the tooling on the evm of course
it's right you know much more rich and mature um and the simplicity of one account of course
everything has its trade-offs um but for the simplicity of creating contracts having one
account one address is uh um definitely a plus i'm also i think like many people are really looking

(42:29):
forward to the exo uh dropping uh at some point onto the scene general protocols doesn't want to
want to say uh when they're rather keen on just making sure that the product is released in a
great form which i think is correct as you mentioned you know security is incredibly important
um and making sure that that's all fleshed out talking about products i've actually got a fiendish

(42:50):
shout out so i'm not sure if you're aware of this um jacob so it's um so we've got a couple of
tokens that are associated with the platform and one of them is called emerald and by spending
100 000 emeralds you get a shout out live on show and this is a shout out uh which is uh get a bunch
of self-licensed cyberpunks working on your privacy area aria vpn underscore net it is a strict no logs

(43:14):
policy zero knowledge architecture vpn provider not in any of the 14 i countries bch zero conf and
xmr only 30 bucks for a whole year plan business solutions available so well well spent 100 000
emerald there um yeah and and thinking about products and exo um so at the moment of course

(43:36):
and i understand you know you've got a roadmap that's available on goblins.cash it looks really
really interesting you can go into some of these points um and you talked about the benefits there
of evm so when during when when xo uh releases on bch is and makes daps and app building uh easier

(43:56):
safer more secure um is there a possibility that we'd actually we'd see yourself or your team or
goblins cash uh looking into building on cash tokens and on the main chain bch network is that
is that a possibility um yeah it it is actually like in my original i mean i've been iterating and
and changing the roadmap a little bit like i actually have like i was starting cash tokens work

(44:23):
um like starting in january to coincide with the may upgrade like the may upgrade on bitcoin cash
like you have bigger you have bigger limits on vm and a couple of other things that would make
building dex's easier and uh um like right now from like goblins cash side like we have our

(44:43):
products like concentrated liquidity bridge hyperlane bridges and like there's something
called erc 46 26 volts like i'm looking at that with panoptic uh for like the perpetual options
like from our side we're trying to make it i mean as you kind of touched on earlier the tvl has

(45:03):
taken a huge hit on smart bch and the users also have taken a huge hit like we're working towards
like making our protocol more profitable and like uh and like one of the ways like you can do that
is by like aligning uh all the stakeholders together which i i think there's some misalignment
right now um so like that's what i'm mostly going to be working on uh aerodrome and velodrome and

(45:30):
hyperlink for all of for all of this year but like as the protocol gets more profitable and
and like i can expand like after i mean my next chain after uh i mean i'm on three chains right
now like my next chain as as we get more profitable is uh bch uh main chain and and and like and like

(45:56):
you uh and like you were saying in terms of tooling like also from like the developer side too like
i'm not a developer in the sense that and i'm not a developer and and like there's tons of evm
developers out there um in the wild but there's not a lot of utx of developers either uh right now

(46:17):
but uh um yeah like i plan yeah like i'm following closely and like uh i'm nervous to use some of the
bch uh i mean i use bch bowl a lot but like i'm nervous to use a a couple of the other products
just based on like i i really need that hardware wallet for like safety and like secure security

(46:40):
from my side absolutely yeah what i always well i mean so i'm using um the cash check and deco
system quite a bit um and uh and i'm using um you know hot wallets for that so i've got my my
mobile wallets on um uh paytakers zap it for for cash tokens there's also cash in eyes for the web

(47:01):
wallet um and you know what i i think for me it's absolutely fine to use and you should one shouldn't
be concerned about using it but with an amount of money you are well you know you you are okay about
losing um because you know you're in it it's all um you know first of all dealing with hot
wallets i think i think the risk is is overstated uh when you're using i mean i'm i'm using ios um

(47:26):
but but when you come to signing contracts for example then of course what are you actually
signing and there's a lot of trust being placed on there um and so i do have trust in those people
that are doing it but do i have trust with my life savings no do i have trust with an amount of money
that i'm not willing to lose no and and then people want to gamble with that that's fine but

(47:48):
then you have to accept that that because you know that's the whole point of this ecosystem isn't it
is that we don't we shouldn't be putting trust in people of course there is always some trust
especially when building things up um but the point is we should get to the trustless and as
it's close to trustless as possible which is where you know the tools are going to be coming
out from general protocols um if they if they hit the mark will be a huge boon for the development

(48:11):
community um in bch and it sounds like yeah with with your with yourself and i really appreciate
that so you're not yourself a developer you're an entrepreneur you have a good understanding of how
to architect and what you want to be creating but you would need uh developers in the ecosystem of
the expertise to to build it what what it is you're looking to build which of course um you know i'm

(48:32):
finding an evm developer um i'm sure it's not just easier it's also much cheaper right because of that
competition whereas if you want to build anything on bitcoin cash probably you know the kind of
people that you need they'll be very high caliber sure but they're few and far between and therefore
the the highest bidder wins and or the most interesting product so normally is going to
cost quite a bit more so uh but uh but hopefully you know you you may make i know you're staying

(48:58):
you're quite active in the bch groups and in development communities to make sure that uh
yeah you stay in contact there because i know that you know from my experience with with many
people in the ecosystem there are lots of people that are sort of working on their separate things
uh but there are lots of people that are actually very excited about joining larger teams
and teaming up on on building things together and i think there's a lot of opportunity there still

(49:20):
within the ecosystem for people to to team up and share their skill sets to create a sum that's
greater or to create an output that's greater than the sum of the parts right right the right the one
thing i wanted to say i i know it's kind of like the side thing on it on the software wallets and
like the hardware wallets is so like yeah like so i've been yeah i went through like tera usd i've

(49:43):
been through like a couple of the 2020 hacks and and and like a couple of other things and like
what actually got me into like reading evm smart contracts and code is just like a couple of the
rugs that i went through like i wanted to make sure like that would never happen to me again
and so like i wanted to study the code like in great detail to make sure like i know for sure

(50:08):
like what i'm signing and and stuff like that and like just taking 2024 and actually just recently
like two days ago um in terms of like software wallets and hardware wallets um like the i mean
i experienced the radiant capital hack like firsthand uh it's a lending platform like

(50:32):
hundred million dollars or so on like finance smart chain arbitrum etc and like uh they were
an ava fork and they had some admin functions and basically these north korean hackers were
able to like socially engineer and socially engineer the team and were able to were able

(50:54):
to upgrade the contracts and and take millions and millions of dollars and and uh i had an approval
open on one of my usdc uh wallets and i don't know i lost like 100 200 bucks like it wasn't that bad
at the end of the day but like from like these types of hacks with like social engineering and

(51:16):
north korean hackers and like the one that happened two days ago like kind of a similar issue with
like upgradable contracts uh like i mean there's people out there that are willing to like socially
engineer and like sophisticated attacks especially like from like north korean hackers to try to take

(51:37):
to try to take your uh money and like from like a founder president and like a dap side like the
more decentralized you can make your dap uh and like and goblins cash and goblins cash fork and
uniswap v3 and hyperlane like it's it's permissionless like it's immutable uh uh too and like it's very

(52:02):
decentralized and like as i work on aerodrome i'll try to make it more as decentralized as possible
because like that lowers the risk too from the dap side and the founder side like if you can make it
as decentralized and and permissionless as possible like that lowers your risk for those types of

(52:24):
attacks where like people are impersonating other people like you probably see that all the time
where like people may be like impersonating you and like trying to get people to send money to uh
yeah yeah so yeah well this this happened recently to justin bonds uh you know someone in the
bitcoin cash community was trying to equate um the danger of just going onto a wrong website and sort

(52:50):
of assuming that it was like something nefarious was being downloaded and equating that to
installing uh software that you don't know but actually if you look at that case it was again
it was a social attack it was you know he was um he was given a link by someone he trusted didn't
check it and went on to a fake website where he gave in all of his login information so um you know

(53:12):
with the social aspect the social attack you'll never get away from that which is why the code
uh needs to be so robust that even if the person is is captured or you know you know somehow um that
the network withstands and i often think about this when using you know because i trust many
people in the ecosystem rightly or wrongly but i i because i know them but because i think well
there's they've got a lot of money riding on this so that's you know and that's a good reason to

(53:35):
trust someone that if if they lose the trust they lose money right um but at the same time one says
enough money on the table then you know every single person is uh if they're not um going to
crack themselves that but they become a target for someone to crack them and that can happen
anywhere just i just want to pull back one of the points you mentioned this a few times

(53:57):
about goblin's cash and i just want to pick this up so um you've mentioned about you know it's
running on concentrated liquidity and i'd just like to delve into that what is actually meant
here by concentrated liquidity is this like the opposite of what cauldron's doing of its
micropool approach or is it something else entirely so like cauldron dot plus uniswap p2

(54:18):
uniswap p1 um it's on it's on that uh invariant curve x times y equals k like k is a constant so
you pick the constant say like say a thousand and based on x and y like from buying and selling like
that's how you get a price and uh uh like not to make it too complicated the difference between

(54:42):
concentrated liquidity and uh and uniswap p2 is like uh that x times y equals k doesn't happen
from zero to infinity it happens between a price point that you want it to happen to that like
where you want to buy or sell like so like right now i don't know where bch is exactly trading at

(55:04):
i think it's like 430 or 420 something like that like say you bought bch at 420 and you wanted to
sell uh and you wanted to have like a limit order to sell at like 440 or 450 bucks like you could
come to goblins cash and make a liquidity position between 440 and 450 dollars and uh once bitcoin

(55:30):
cash gets to 480 bucks like that liquidity position will be entirely uh usdt it'll be
entirely a stable coin or if you think bitcoin cash is going to uh drop by like 20 to 30 percent
like you could provide a usdt between uh between 300 300 300 and 320 dollars and say bitcoin cash

(55:59):
goes down to 250 bucks like that liquidity position will be entirely uh bch so uh yeah
that makes a lot of sense that's a great tool so that means then you could sort of specify a
range where you think the uh where you think it's going to go but then beneath that range it won't
continue so uh so you know so you're not all of a sudden gonna wake up and realize oh hang on a

(56:22):
minute i've got all of the the wrong thing either the token or the coin you're you were trading in
or or usdt right right right exactly that's something i would i would personally love to
see that on on bitcoin cash i think a cold index is amazing but of course um it's uh you you can't

(56:43):
set any sort of price or range um which which for me as a tradfi coming from the tradfi things
where i'm you know buying and and selling um my bch don't shoot me but it's on exchanges right
of course again off those exchanges straight away as you all should do um but all the tool kits you
got there to be able to set some very specific pricing um and uh when it hits all ranges where

(57:07):
it should where it should trigger at least the the order um these are sort of tools that the people
are used to and they serve great purposes so um so yeah thinking about so i can see the time um and
try and keep these episodes relatively on time so that we uh keep things interesting for the for the
listener but um but you know it's okay if we can go over if you have some some time and also if

(57:31):
anyone in the audience has a question for jacob uh i would like to say something you know relevant
to this topic then please feel free to grab the mic uh and you'll get it um but um yeah so and
you're in the community and you're keeping quite a lot of uh you know activity uh contact um

(57:53):
where is there any chance so where are you based if i'm allowed to ask you know do you can just
give the continent as a sort of rough rough estimate because what i'd love to know is
will we be seeing you know all the builders and entrepreneurs of bch and certainly a lot of the
fans are at bch bliss in may is there any chance we'll see the goblin goblin cash team or yourself

(58:15):
there uh yeah no it's definitely possible uh i'm based in the usa uh texas texas area oh wow it's
really early for you now we could have made this later and i just i just assumed in europe yeah
okay well thanks for joining us so early good morning yes good morning good morning uh yeah so

(58:38):
yeah i'm in us texas area um where where is exactly is bch bliss again was it what uh what
country was it in again i forgot exactly it's it's in slovenia slovenia so it's the capital city of
slovenia lubiana um which uh has because it's the capital city has uh basically the conference

(58:59):
is if i remember correctly like 20 minutes 30 minute drive away from that airport so it has
pretty good connections yeah no i'd love to go and uh yeah no i follow i listen to the bch podcast
a lot and like i know he talked i think he talks about bcx plus too and uh i think you have to buy
like an nft right off of like tap swap to go you you you do so the tickets are made available next

(59:24):
week on the 15th um and it'll be the same as last year from what i understand so um i don't i don't
know if i'm allowed to say the ticket price right now so i'm going to leave that for next week
but the tickets will be priced in bch and that you go on to tap swap you can use your um cash
tokens aware wallet so that you know if you're using um electron cash on um with a hardware

(59:47):
wallet i mean you know you could you could set up a um i'm not sure how that works with a hardware
wallet to be honest but certainly you can set up a new wallet on um on the computer uh to be able
to purchase that um that that nft and so that the idea behind this then is you don't have to give

(01:00:07):
your name your address your anything to sort of connect you um to real life so it allows people
to be able to come to that conference anonymously um and join in with that but if you if you were
able to come it'd be really fantastic so i mean i was there last year i don't know if you saw
um any of the the presentation so i was uh actually the final presentation of an amazing

(01:00:32):
two days so the organizers did a fantastic job um and the feedback was very positive from all the
people that went there that i heard of that they had a great time it was really informative but
also i think one of the nicest comments i had was from someone who's who's in the community
from from israel was uh that uh this person is um

(01:00:56):
like most bch's i guess more more introverted than extroverted and and wasn't the most happy
or comfortable in social scenes and i said well i said to this person well you've just flown across
the world to spend some time with you know like 60 random people as it isn't that like they could
be opposite yeah you're right there actually and how do you feel he says i feel pretty comfortable

(01:01:17):
actually i feel more comfortable than i normally feel is that right okay uh so i think that was a
great thumbs up to the sort of uh the sort of people the sort of vibe that the conference gave
so uh if you can make it uh that'd be fantastic you'd be highly welcomed um and it's three days
three days thanks i mean what's really good is um so i mean um you can pay for the hotel as is

(01:01:41):
advised it's a mario hotel so it's very nice you don't have to stay there of course but uh the mario
they accept bch directly so um so you can actually pay for the room in bch and all night was so great
there's all these bch's and a lot of people in the community a lot of other well-known developers
and uh and we were buying our beers over the counter in bitcoin cash and what was so funny is

(01:02:05):
the first time we tried to pay the the bartender was very like skeptical it's like no no you accept
it and after the on the second night i remember having a conversation with it was it was wonderful
she goes oh do you know what like this is amazing this is so much better bitcoin cash is so much
better than using credit cards and i genuinely thought she was just bullshitting is ah right
yeah sure and he goes no no seriously i'm being i'm being for real okay okay why is that because

(01:02:29):
it's so much quicker okay really and because yeah look and then we did we did a test and basically
paying with the credit card uh took i don't know if it was like 20 seconds or 30 seconds to
to go through we're playing with bch it was instant yeah and i thought wow you know so not only
having this conference here we're putting bch into the ecosystem of reminding um these these

(01:02:51):
venue holders that they can actually accept bitcoin cash because there's this there's this thing out
there i think it's called elepe remember correctly uh part of the pos system so they can accept credit
cards they can also accept bitcoin cash and uh not only that they they were used to this but then
afterwards they're actually talking about how much better it was than than traditional payment

(01:03:11):
systems so that was fun that was a good time you know like anytime i try to onboard people to bitcoin
cash like i know it i know it's not necessarily open source but i do love the wallet the bitcoin
dot com wallet with bch like i usually uh yeah i usually show them that wallet for like onboarding
and and like i like the easy use with the bitcoin dot com bch wallet and uh yeah like that's that's

(01:03:39):
my main mobile wallet like i don't have a lot of like metamask or or rabbi wallet or evm wallets
on my mobile phone like bitcoin cash is still the best i think like on mobile and uh um yeah it's
kind of interesting especially like in the u.s like i saw like i i buy a lot of like gift cards

(01:04:01):
with bitcoin cash and i saw like uh bitpay uh one of the payment service providers like they're
starting to do like kyc now just for like simple purchases so like it's starting to get interesting
in terms of like how to use and like spend bitcoin cash and uh well yeah yeah no definitely and

(01:04:22):
that's also something that's changed a lot like in 2000 like when you started building goblin's cash
um the bitcoin dot com wallet was pretty much the the only wallet so you had flowy pay uh but
you know i know one that i knew i used this it was really it was bitcoin dot com uh if you you know
if you were using that for payments um and that and that was it you know um for your for your

(01:04:45):
mobile and today or since then um because of the sort of pivot away uh or yeah or the the efforts
you know away from from bitcoin cash uh towards other chains there's been an explosion um in that
scene so i can highly you know and i do agree with your concerns here and your desire for using

(01:05:05):
hardware wallets and you know for everything that you've experienced um i i can really only understand
too well why you are extra cautious and it's correct to be and i really advise everyone in
the ecosystem to to be rather skeptical of of you know rather than just accepting and trusting um
but with uh you know certainly a small amount you know a couple of bucks just giving out that

(01:05:26):
ecosystem a try you know downloading it whether it's paytac or zap it to be able to access the
cash tokens ecosystem i really would advise for yourself and anyone listening to give it a try
and if you if you do if you get yourself a wallet ping me your cash tokens id and r
send over some some tokens to to your account just to just you know if nothing else just so

(01:05:49):
you can say hey that was my that was my remembrance my memorabilia for coming up
English and friends um but it is it is worth you know having a look at what's available now
with paytac for example which is my currently used cash tokens wallet i've got my blitz tickets from
last year um in there uh and uh and also for the for the next for this year's conference too and

(01:06:13):
it's really nice to be able to see you know i'm not a huge nft fan um but but the idea of doing
tickets and and you know something that has value over nfts i think is just brilliant this is fantastic
and and i can hold that as a memento and see it whenever i want within with on my phone which is
which is great very different uh you know bitcoin.com one i i agree with you the bitcoin wallet is

(01:06:36):
still very smooth and for showing onboarding new people it has you know it just has that slickness
which which helps and professional look but when when interacting with the cash token system
unfortunately there hasn't been any development there yet so when corbin finally pulls his uh
his finger out uh and sees the benefits of doing so it'd be exciting to see what what their wallet

(01:06:57):
does uh and how it incorporates cash tokens yeah maybe maybe one day we'll see goblins goblins
cash on there too you know we think so for example yeah i'll look at pay i i downloaded paytac at one
point i like the sense that i remember using it like i like that they had a bch full integrative

(01:07:18):
i think they had the usd market integrated i don't know if they still have it but i remember putting
on a bch bowl uh bch bowl position through paytaca and i like that a lot being able to do that like
inside the wallet um so um yeah yeah i'll have to yeah i'll have to i'll have to put like one of my

(01:07:43):
software wallets up like uh i have like a flip starter wallet on electron cash uh that i've used
in the past that i can can kind of re-engage i know there's like a bunch of interesting projects
on cash tokens too that i need to explore more so uh i think there was like uh like badgers.cash

(01:08:05):
and then there was like another one too uh with like coupons that i thought was interesting that
i needed to look at more uh yeah badgers.cash so the developer and founder of badgers.cash
sarshi nakamaria was also at bch bliss last year as far as i understand said to you you will be
going this year as well uh great great guy uh and the great product as well so this is you know being

(01:08:30):
able to lock up your bch and the idea was he just built this as a sort of to to hone his skills you
lock in your bch you earn the badger tokens you earn this sort of this reward non-monetary reward
as as compensation for that the idea of sucking liquidity out of the system
and sort of people having fun with that but but the token that has value you know people see people

(01:08:55):
see the value in this and have attributed value to this um and so the the total value locked of
uh badgers.cash in this is going quite quite high uh and it's great to see this because um you know
this wasn't this isn't built as a business idea or anything like that it's just you know people
learning the tools and trying out stuff but yet the quality is high enough to attract people to

(01:09:21):
to use it and encouraging further investments so uh yeah and i know sarshi is working on some other
much more meaningful product products right now and projects we'll hear about more of those uh
in in the year i believe um but yeah there's a lot going on in that ecosystem and uh so yeah
goblins cash so you know for everyone listening so you can check that out goblins.cash um and uh

(01:09:43):
i think this is something i remember when this came out um on on smart bch you know and i was
really excited um by this and uh and i really you know it pains me everything that happened there
and i know you you've obviously gone through a lot you've learned a lot uh and i'm and i'm really
enthused and motivated by the fact that throughout all of that you just carried on

(01:10:10):
and didn't say no and and developed and now i've got multi-chain um and uh yeah i are working very
hard to making this um a great success so i'm really looking forward to seeing this this roadmap
so the roadmap goes to june 2025 so uh as a sort of final question um so the road road goes to june

(01:10:34):
25 we've got the main net launch forefront and ready and open source prep how likely is it for
you to be hitting that roadmap on time um i think it's extremely likely in the sense that we're uh
i mean some of the reason for the timeline just has to do with like licensing business

(01:10:55):
source license versus open source license and stuff like that but um i i think it's extremely
likely that we'll be hitting that uh we'll be hitting that on time and basically like yeah
what i was saying earlier we're trying to align all the stakeholders and then like in addition
to concentrate the liquidity like the stuff that we're putting out in june uh will be like uniswap

(01:11:19):
e2 type liquidity um it would be like especially with like sbch having uh dpeg issues right now
um we're using curve finance um invariant curve which will help like try to stabilize the sbch price
and then uh has a couple other things too with like voting and uh um that will like align the

(01:11:43):
stakeholders uh together but kind of like goblin's cash vision right now is to like align
the stakeholders together with this meta dex vision and to make the to make it more profitable
i mean it's hard to do right now like on with on svch and uh uh yeah like being multi-chain helps

(01:12:05):
a ton uh with svch base and finance marketing and yeah like we didn't even touch on like ai but
there's like a bunch of stuff going on with ai right now in terms of ai coding and and ai
it's actually one of my questions uh that i wanted to ask it's actually but we the conversation
moves somewhere else but uh yeah so i saw the ai powered dex and this is always you know for me ai

(01:12:31):
is uh is this such an amazing tool but can often be used as a buzzword um you know and you know
you know maybe that's something we can talk about another time and come back to that but
yeah you're saying that ai is uh you know powering this dex in a in a sentence or two

(01:12:52):
can you explain how you are leveraging ai yeah so so it's not fully fudged out yet so like most of
the stuff on the site like in terms of the doc section like we're using like notebook lom and
like uh there's like podcast formats where you can turn the website pages into lom like where we see

(01:13:14):
like adding more ai components to uh to goblins cache is on the wallet side um so yeah we didn't
necessarily touch on that like this is getting into wallets but like uh there's these things called
like coinbase has like coinbase smart wallet and basically you're moving on from private keys and

(01:13:38):
recovery phrases to uh pass keys and the pass keys are tied to the hardware of like your computer or
your phone or in this secure enclave infrastructure and like you can recover like getting back to
recovery phrases and private keys like you can recover uh your wallet in case like you lost the

(01:14:03):
hardware or if there was an issue through uh through a smart contract and that's where we see
like adding ai um agents there but it's not fully done yet um it's mostly just stuff and
and yeah it's mostly just stuff on on like docs and like the analytics section and a couple other

(01:14:24):
places but um i i mean it's yeah i mean it's important like ai right now like it it's important
it's important to the ecosystem and crypto in general and that's where that's where you're
actually seeing the whole market right now is in these ai agents i don't know if you've heard of
like virtual's protocol but that's like the main one right now with like ai agents and and it's

(01:14:50):
kind of crazy just going on x and just seeing like ai xbt just like just talking and and talking and
like giving valuable information about different projects like i've actually been using it just
for like making decisions and stuff like that and it's crazy and i don't know if you've seen so the

(01:15:11):
new nvidia cards are coming on the suit like the supercomputer for three grand or something insane
it's um it's something that you know the the ai software is is developing at a tremendous rate
but it's also the hardware underpinning it all um and and is and is really being released at prices
that are affordable to any enthusiast out there too which is great you know democratizing this

(01:15:38):
crazy power um and ai is something i know a lot of a lot of people still say that ai is the fad
and i i to me i smack my head i i love cryptocurrencies i think that the invention
of bitcoin and the block blockchain and the open ledger was one of the greatest inventions and so
like i think it is the greatest invention um uh for money and finance uh since like the invention

(01:16:00):
of coins and and money i think that's massive but ai i think just does everything else it's just it's
just a burning flame in comparison um and i think it's the uh the the potential what we're going to
be seeing over the next 10 20 years it'll make the entire industrial revolution look like the
discovery of fire in comparison it's gonna be it's just gonna be it's gonna be wild so i'm really

(01:16:25):
excited uh by by this technology i think the world's gonna get very bizarre very weird um
before we find um before before we find our way with this new technology and why i'm more grateful
than ever for decentralized uh permissionless money i think we've never had such a need for it
because it's the one be one of the few things that we can actually trust um um but of course

(01:16:46):
you know the way that it will be leveraged in everything um and how we develop tools how we
build tall tools it will democratize app building i'm pretty sure there will be a lot more people
in 10 years that have great ideas and rather than just uh you know uh having to shelve those ideas
because it can't afford a developer we'll be able to use ai to at least get the sort of the concept

(01:17:08):
going as you know you're just thinking about today i can't draw i'm really it's one of my weaknesses
i can create music i'm you know i'm definitely artistic in that sense but i can't draw but i can
just write in a prompt and all of a sudden the thing that i was thinking becomes on a you know
in a in a graphic which i can then use that's you know it's a small aspect of it but uh it's crazy

(01:17:30):
and democracize is uh this sort of entrepreneurship so yeah exciting so thanks so much uh jacob so uh
yeah i don't know i'm thinking about changing the format so one hour is very restrictive i could
have talked to you for another hour or two there was a lot of topics that we sort of didn't go into
that i really was interested in um but as i said maybe we'll have to we'll have to pick that up

(01:17:51):
again um but it was certainly a pleasure um having you on today thank you so much for joining us for
finishing friends episode eight yeah no i loved it this is great thank you thank you thank you
and for all you listeners please make sure um to follow jacob and goblin cash on twitter at jacob
underscore stelter and goblins cash um and for all your listeners who enjoyed the show if you

(01:18:15):
want to show your appreciation please feel free to drop some bch or a fiendish token into our
wallet i've got the cash tokens address on the twitter profile and the next episode of finishing
friends is at one o'clock central european time so the same time again next friday and it's
featuring noel la versa the founder and ceo of code valley to talk about their paradigm shifting

(01:18:37):
tech emergent coding set to both revolutionize and industrialize the world of coding and development
and this is also something using i don't know if you know much about this jacob but he's also
using little agents uh i don't know if you could call it ai agents but it's essentially using
you know it's machine learning which essentially what ai is uh to to create to create a very

(01:19:00):
efficient code um so very exciting and very very much looking forward to that it's been a long time
coming um so just make sure to pop some fiendish tokens into the jigs box hit play to convert
tokenized fiendish time into entire 60 minutes plus of the greatest podcast in the space this
was finishing friends i wish you all a good morning a good day and good night take care bye jacob bye

(01:19:24):
thank you
deep in the forest where the goblins play counting their gold at the end of the day

(01:19:47):
but grizzle the green said gold's not the key bitcoin cash is the future for goblins like me
goblins on the blockchain dancing in the moon trading vch and singing a tune

(01:20:09):
singing a tune with pixies trolls and sprites by their side it's a magical market where dreams abide
the trolls used to grumble with fees that were high but bitcoin cash made their grumble subside

(01:20:35):
fast as a fox and simple to share goblins to goblin we send it anywhere
goblins on the blockchain dancing in the moon trading vch and singing a tune

(01:20:56):
singing a tune with pixies trolls and sprites by their side it's a magical market where dreams abide
sprites love to sprinkle their coins in the air tiny bch sparkles everywhere the pixies giggle

(01:21:18):
their wallets aglow peer to peers the way to go
the elves joined in with their elegant flair saying bitcoin cash is beyond compare from

(01:21:44):
forest to mountains to cities and seas the creatures agree it's the best you'll see
goblins on the blockchain dancing in the moon trading bch and singing a tune

(01:22:04):
with pixies trolls and sprites by their side it's a magical market where dreams abide
so if you should stumble on this merry crew remember bitcoin cash is the coin they all knew

(01:22:27):
join in the laughter the magic the cheer for bch is the coin for all creatures here