May 19, 2025 • 27 mins
Join us as we sit down with Nadia Jaworski, joint founder and partner of Maverick Advisors, who pulls back the curtain on the fascinating world of social infrastructure development. With over 25 years of experience working across both government and private sectors, Nadia offers rare insights into how essential community facilities move from idea to reality.
The conversation delves into the challenges facing infrastructure development today, from fiscal constraints to climate considerations. Nadia shares how COVID disrupted construction supply chains and budgets, requiring greater innovation and risk management.
For aspiring professionals, Nadia's advice is refreshingly practical: "Just give anything a go." Her own story demonstrates how taking on challenging projects and building networks can lead to remarkable career success. As a passionate advocate for diversity, she discusses how Maverick Advisors maintains 50% female leadership and her commitment to mentoring the next generation of women in infrastructure.
Enjoyed the episode? Follow Finance Friends Podcast on Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok for daily updates and more inspiring conversations. Got questions or ideas for future episodes? Send us a DM @financefriendspodcast!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Finance Friends podcast.
Whether you have followed usfrom the beginning or you're a
new listener, we are excited tohave you here.
Finance Friends gives ourlisteners a seat at the table
with successful finance industryleaders.
Follow us on our socials atFinance Friends Podcast, linked
in the description box of thisepisode, and stay tuned for
(00:29):
weekly episode releases.
Today on the Finance FriendsPodcast we have Nadia Jaworski,
who is a joint founder andpartner of Maverick Advisors.
She provides socialinfrastructure advisory to both
government and the privatesector.
She's got over 25 yearsexperience working for the
(00:49):
government in socialinfrastructure advisory and
working in the private sector.
She has really insightfulstories and an understanding of
what it takes to get a socialgovernment or social
infrastructure project from anidea to working operation.
Listen in and don't forget tofollow us on Finance Friends
(01:09):
podcast.
Good morning, nadia.
Welcome to Finance Friends.
How are you today?
Thank you From Monday morning.
Monday morning it is early inthe morning, 9.30.
And you mentioned you had abusy weekend, lots of family
catch-ups, it's been great, youknow, catching up with everybody
.
Yeah, that's great, and you alsomentioned that you're in Force
(01:30):
Creek the other week, so whatbrings you to Force Creek?
Couldn't imagine there's anysnow in April.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
No, no, it's very beautiful down there.
However, I am on the board ofAlpine Resort Victoria.
What's pretty exciting aboutthat role is we're looking at
making sure that there's afinancial viability for the
sector for the snow, whiteseason and green season going
forward, and so it's veryimportant for economic returns
(01:57):
for Victoria around visitationdestination, and so we're
working really hard to make surethat there's a long-term
viability of skiing and resortsmore broadly.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And is it growing in Australia skiing?
Because I know a lot of peopleare going to Japan.
It's quite common.
Obviously Japanese yen's a bitlower and they get.
From my understanding, japangets the most snow in any
country in the world, so are youencouraging people to go come
domestically to Force Creek andresorts alike?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Look.
I think we have to realisewe've got a real natural beauty
in Victoria and in Australiathat's really unique for our
visitor destination points andalso the economic component of
regional communities and jobsand visitation just for national
parks, and so we're reallyencouraging and we know that
there's important investmentsthat are made to have that
(02:52):
unique experience in Victoria.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, you can go to Japan, but I think Australia's
got its own uniqueness aroundparks and snow and for green
season as well.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So there's lots of things happening around bike
riding and hiking and luge, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, and trail running has become really
popular too, and a few friendsof mine have done some trail
runs around that region.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, it's getting really popular.
We're making sure that there'sunique experiences all year
round.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, so being on the board.
So you're on the board of.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Alpine Resort Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay, so maybe touching a little bit more, what
does the, what does that roleinvolve?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
so really it's about making sure that all resorts
around victoria we'veamalgamated them into one entity
and making sure that there'sfinancial viability.
The other remit is aroundclimate change, but also making
sure that we've got FirstNations involvement as well,
(03:51):
because, as we do developmentsin natural parks and resources
and there's lots of differentFirst Nations areas.
We focus on Tanarong andGunai-Kerno, and so we're making
sure that there's a whole rangeof balancing those three things
around the financial viability,how we invest sustainably and
make sure that we've got futurelegacy outcomes for future
generations.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, so it's quite interesting that you're on the
board of Alpine Resorts.
How did you get there?
So maybe let's touch on yourcurrent role at Maverick
Advisors.
So you founded that businessand you're a partner of that
firm, so can you share a littlebit about Maverick Advisors and
what you do?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So Maverick Advisors is a boutique investment
strategy.
So that's financial investmentstrategy right through to
delivery all across the projectlifecycle investment strategy
right through to delivery acrossthe project life cycle.
But if I look about how I cameto Maverick and founding that I
spent a lot of my career insocial infrastructure and for me
(04:56):
that's been really important.
I'm Ukrainian heritage from animmigrant family on both sides,
and what was really important tomy family and the success of
our optimal family generationwas really having that sense of
community, community buildingand that made a difference.
So what that's meant for me isI've always leant towards
(05:20):
working with a socialinfrastructure and for those who
don't know the difference abouteconomic and social, it's
really around thinking aboutthings that you don't
necessarily pay for so socialhousing affordable housing,
hospitals, schools, all thethings that really make a
cohesive social fabric and makea difference in people's lives,
and so I spend a lot of time ingovernment state government in
(05:41):
those sectors, working my waythrough from delivery of those
construction projects right upto the front end of financing
them, working with what we callDepartment of Treasury and
Finance business cases, gettingthe funding and financing and
the different types of contractsto get those large scale
(06:02):
precincts or infrastructureprojects
Speaker 1 (06:04):
funded from Treasury and then into delivery.
Yeah, so what is the time taken?
Because to deliver let's say anexample, let's say a hospital
or a school, to deliver thatproject, from the initial
thoughts or understanding,there's a need to come and get
(06:26):
into working operation.
Can you talk through thatprocess and the time it takes so
someone like myself who's notfamiliar with that space can
understand what's involved?
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So generally if you look at something like the New
Footscray.
Hospital the $1.5 billion newWhizbang Hospital out in the
inner west it's probably about afive to six year end to end
project.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So we would start traditionally working on the
needs model, the demand data andthe business case would take
into consideration all of thatwhole of system requirements.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So if you don't have a cancer centre in that part of
the world or you don't havecertain services.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
We would do planning models of care, then get
developed and service plans andthen we start with what we would
call the feasibility study ofwhat sort of things would we
build where, and how the size,the scale that then informs a
business case.
So the Department of Treasuryand Finance has a very specific
(07:31):
template.
That document's quite intensiveand I've led those types of
business cases.
So I'll be working with a teamof technical experts as well as
economic experts.
So we will look at, for thedollar invested, invested,
what's the return of investmentback to the state into the
economy right through to whatwould be the design we work with
(07:53):
?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I work with architects, engineering planners
, the clinicians, the doctorsthemselves are on user groups to
say well, what would we designand what does that cost?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So you have a quantity surveyor that then
informs a pretty hefty documentusually around 200 pages lots of
risk, registers, cost plans,designs that really get stress
tested and then form aprocurement strategy of how we
would go to market.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So we would do market sounding with the big tier one
contractors.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I'm thinking people like Len Leases, john Hollands,
multiplexes of the world builds.
They get really involved andthey start to gear up for these
types of projects.
That would take about two yearsto get to the project sign off
and the funding being allocatedfrom Treasury going to market
(08:44):
and the build that can takeanother up to two years, and so
you can see they're quitelengthy projects.
Lots of involvement, end-to-endand lots of rigor.
Lots of stakeholder and usergroup components, but at the end
we we like to see brand newsocial infrastructure that
really meets the needs of thecommunity and using our taxpayer
(09:07):
dollars effectively, and that'swhere the financial sense
checking and the commercialmodelling is really important as
well, to make sure that thattransaction delivers on what the
state and the community expects.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, and what they ultimately, as a voting member
in the national or federalelections coming up in about
five weeks, votes for, and it'spart of the community and
growing the community.
So, no, it's great.
It's interesting you say thatbecause most of my brothers work
in construction.
They've both worked on theFootscray Hospital, so I don't
(09:40):
think they're working there atthe moment.
So what's Is the biggestchallenge through that process
in your role and maybe, if youcan share from working for the
government now working as anadvisor on those projects?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So I've worked on both sides, even outside, as an
advisor.
I've worked for government andI've worked for private client
side.
I think at the moment thebiggest challenge is very tight
fiscal environments, and sogovernment and private sector
both have to do a lot of rigouraround the investment strategies
(10:16):
when and how and how muchthey're likely to invest and
what are they likely?
To get for their investmentdollar and so I think that's
really changed.
During COVID and post-COVID wasquite a boom in infrastructure,
and so there was a lot more of apie investment pie to be
allocated, but we've really seenthe shift to a tighter market
(10:41):
for governments.
The government's reallystarting to reprioritise heavily
and refocus on what's the mostpointy end of infrastructure
they want to invest in.
So if you think about hospitals.
They'll be looking at what arethe top tranche that's really
critical for community and wherethe gaps are Same with road and
rail, and then for private sidewe're seeing a lot of clients
(11:03):
really starting to think aboutwell, if we are investing in
this global market, that's quiteunstable how certain are we?
Around the investment decisionsthat are being made and that
the return on that investment isgoing to deliver.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Not only the shareholders, but what
government?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
is also expecting as a partner.
So we're seeing that I'm seeingmuch more rigour around where
those decisions are being madeand the benefits.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
the benefit realisation is really highly
focused, and how much does thecurrent interest rate affect the
ability to, I guess, deliver aproject and the cost of finance?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Look, I think that it's, really it's not just the
interest rates I think it's thewhole global volatility of a
whole range of different drivers.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
If you take something like the Housing Availability
Affordability Fund by theCommonwealth that got set up to
try and manage that for housingassociations and housing
suppliers.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So that there was a much more certainty around
interest rate coverage and tomanage that volatility, so we
saw a lot of affordable andsocial housing projects
announced recently, and sothat's given more certainty for
people to invest for build, torent and key worker housing as
well.
In terms of something like thehospital projects.
(12:32):
We're really making sure thatwhen we're doing the business
cases, that those contingenciesare really costed as part of the
cost plan and the budget, tomake sure that there's room to
manage the coverage of anyescalation points.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
That's not only just on interest rates.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We're talking about supply chain cost of labour, and
we're still yet to see what thetrade tariff laws are going to
have as an impact so we'realways looking at contingencies
and making sure that thebudget's got that too.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, it's interesting from an external
point of view and just readingsort of papers AFR, et cetera we
do see a number of projectsthat do go over budget.
So can you share with us maybesome insights into why that is
the case and you know thingsthat maybe the average person
(13:25):
might not be aware of?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Look, there's lots of things that can impact.
I mean, if we have a thinkabout what happened during COVID
, the supply chain totally gotcut off in terms of what was
happening globally.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So, if you think about prices, of steel, timber
imports.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Really, if you had planned a project, a couple, of
years before COVID had kicked inyou would have found yourself
in a place where your budgetwould have been nowhere near
what the cost of the supplieswould have been budgeted for 18
months to 24 months earlier.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And so it's really about the volatility of the
market where we hadn't seen alot of that happening for a very
long time.
There's also big build, soVictoria's got a lot going on,
and so is Queensland at themoment with all their hospitals
and stadia and the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And so when you start to conflate a lot of big build
projects all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
What we find is that also escalates cost of materials
or labour shortages, tradessmaller trades that have to
impact.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Think about your electrical trades smaller trades
that have to impact.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
If you think about your electrical, mechanical,
your plumbing, and so you haveto start to think about all the
impacts that are happening inconcert that start to have
congestion points with bills,not only in Victoria but
nationally.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, of course.
And how did you get to whereyou are today?
So you talked about yourparents or grandparents being
migrants from Ukraine and talkedabout social infrastructure and
how important it is.
Did you know at the age of 15that you wanted to work in
social infrastructure advisory?
(15:04):
You talk us through thatprocess.
When did you know this is whatI want to do?
My dad was a global engineerand so at a very young age or
you talk us through that process.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
When did you know this is what I want to do?
This is what I want to do.
My dad was a global engineer,and so at a very young age he
made sure my sister and I werevery across how to use power
tools, all the electricalappliances, and so we were
always in and around hammers,drills, saws.
He also made sure, he and mymum, that we could absolutely be
(15:32):
whatever we wanted and weweren't really pushed into
gender-based jobs or training.
I really fell in love withsocial infrastructure when I
started in government in socialand affordable housing.
I spent a lot of time in thatspace changing the regulatory
framework, registering the firsthousing associations and
starting to do housing builds,housing redevelopments all the
(15:54):
public housing redevelopments,precinct redevelopments and
really loved being able to seetangible things being built
because I felt like I was makingan impact and I could really
see people going into thoseaffordable homes and seeing what
a difference it made to theirlives and then being able to
reconnect back into services,jobs, training, reconnecting
with families.
(16:14):
So that's where I started.
After 17 years in stategovernment.
I worked in health andeducation.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So I was doing school builds hospital builds mental
health facilities.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I ended up going to the dark side of consulting.
So I had a friend who saidwould I be willing to start up
the Asia Pacific socialinfrastructure?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
part of Advisium which was Wally Parsons, Evans
and Peck.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So I took that on board and took to it like a duck
to water, really enjoyed thediversity and all the challenges
that came with workingproviding advisory to both
government and private clients.
From there, I then moved into.
Speaker (16:55):
PricewaterhouseCoopers and was a partner in the
infrastructure business thereAgain really leading large-scale
social infrastructure projectslike the quarantine commercially
and nationally, so I wasrunning.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Mickelham in Vic, Queensland and WA in.
Covid out of my study Also justbeing able to do whole
portfolio pieces for Vic HealthBuilding Authority, running
portfolio investment strategiesand running all the business
cases, and so that really gaveme great exposure to large,
(17:29):
high-value, high-risk projectsand really found I love working
in uncertainty and shapinginvestment strategies and really
hearing all the differentstakeholders and all the
different needs and being ableto come up with concepts that
can balance a whole range ofdifferent priorities.
But it's been really importantdoing the delivery of projects
(17:49):
to be able to bring that up thelife cycle, to understand how to
do good strategy.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And how do you deal with the stress that there are
so many different factors thatcan influence the outcome,
whether it be positive ornegative?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'm probably a unique creature in that I quite like
living in uncertain bookerenvironments.
So those of you volatile,uncertain, complex, ambiguous
and really being able to shapeit.
That's really exciting for meTalking to a lot of stakeholders
and partners, understandingwhat's really driving and
motivating and being able towhat's really driving and
(18:29):
motivating and being able tohelp bring really complex
financial and investmentstrategies down to really simple
concepts that people canunderstand the tensions and
trade-offs and the decisionsthat they're making.
Because, often with optionality.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You do bookends you can do nothing, or you can do
the most gold-tapped version youdo bookends, you can do nothing
or you can do the mostgold-tapped version.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Really, where most people sit is the middle ground
which is the silver or bronze.
There's a real skill in beingable to show people what they're
buying and what they'reinvesting in, and what their
likely return on investment isand what they're not buying or
achieving and getting out ofsomething, and so we've been
able to hone that at Maverick.
We've been we really have justbeen.
(19:12):
We've got the most high-levelexperts in the field, both from
a political lens and deliverylens and investment strategy
that we don't use a leveragemodel.
We found that doesn't workbecause we really need the
smarts to really be able toshowcase for clients what their
dollar's really buying in thisreally critical fiscal
(19:32):
environment.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, and how do you see your industry or
infrastructure, socialinfrastructure, evolving over
the next five, ten years, or howwould you like to see it evolve
?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think we're going to have to get smarter to have
greater return on investment forcertain projects and I really
think that we need to make surethat the silos are being moved
away, and so what I mean by thatis if you've got a precinct
like Arden Precinct in NorthMelbourne, it can't be just a
hospital project, it can't bejust a housing project, it can't
(20:11):
be just a road or transportproject.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
We really need to start to think about communities
that we're building and theprecincts that we're building
and the precincts that we'rebuilding and so when we're
investing.
How are we, as custodians ofthese sites for legacy?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
outcomes.
How are we thinking about themas future?
Precincts for people to workaccess health services live meet
up with families and friends.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
How are we thinking about that investment as a
holistic precinct?
Redevelopment rather than justone individual investment and
construction projects on theirown.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, which is quite interesting.
You know, bring the communitytogether, that you know.
It's almost like your one-stopshop for everything.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And obviously there's .
You know we're always thinkingabout sustainability and so,
because we can't invest ineverything right now, there's
climate change and climatesustainability, but also about
how do you future proof andthink about considered stages of
investment so that we're notboxing out and blocking future
change or future investment orideas, so that because we've
(21:18):
seen too many times where I knowprojects, people will just
plonk something right in themiddle of a precinct without
really thinking about what's the10-year plan, what's the master
plan look like?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And how does it feed into future development and
population growth, and what willthe future needs be?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, so you see a lot about engaging various
different stakeholders at alocal council level all the way
up to state and Commonwealth butalso then you're talking about
dealing with, you know,lendlease Multiplex and these
large organisations tounderstand the budget and be
able to deliver that and presentyou know the opportunity for
(21:57):
investment.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
And we're starting to also see much more investment
from private equity super fundsinto social infrastructure.
They're now seeing them as realasset classes to have socially
conscious investment, and sowe're seeing that change as well
.
So they also want to see thatthere's future for investment
for their stakeholders andclients.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, that's great.
So if someone wants to get intosocial infrastructure advisory,
what advice would you give?
What advice would you give youryoung 22-year-old self?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think just give anything a go.
There's been a lot of timesalong my career I was asked to
take on a role or a project thatI thought I don't know if I
actually know how to do this.
But just trust in yourself andI think, just give anything a go
, because you learn from thoseprojects.
You meet new people.
(22:57):
The networking has been reallycritical for me how many times
I've been able to ring up a pastclient or a past partner that
I've worked with to retestsomething or revalidate, and it
is all about learning andtesting.
There's no one, nothing, it'snot one solution.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
There's lots of solutions.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And I co-design.
Co-design is really importantbecause that means people have
the opportunity to test and, youknow, give you feedback along
the way.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You don't have to own it all yourself, yeah, and just
be open to that feedback aswell and don't take it
personally.
So you talked about you knowreaching out to ex-partners that
you worked with.
Has there been someone that'sbeen a big influence on your
life throughout your career,whether it be early on?
You talked about your dad beingan engineer and really giving
you exposure to you know usehand tools and be open to
(23:52):
learning and doing differentthings.
Is there someone that comes tomind?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Look, I would still say I still ring my dad even now
if I've got a tricky scenarioor a strategy obviously
de-identified around even in myprofessional career around
testing which way I should go.
What are the options.
Have I thought about all therisks Again?
Just making sure there's a safesounding board to test?
(24:17):
Safe sounding board to test?
And very early on in my careerI was given opportunity by a
woman in power to give me justthat opportunity to try projects
early on where they were wayabove probably my skill set and
competency at the time Safeenvironments.
(24:38):
I think I've been just really,really I've had a lot of good
mentors along the way.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I've just been pretty lucky, I guess, and you seem
like you're a mentor yourself.
I know that your daughter workswith you a couple of days a
week while she's studying.
Are you being her mentor,empowering her to learn about
this space as well?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I have three daughters and so I'm really
passionate about women ininfrastructure.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think I really want to make sure my daughters and
all young women can see thatthis is a real pathway and a
roadmap for people that areinterested in something
different.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's really important that we've got those pathways,
both in business, inconstruction.
It means we've got the futuregenerations coming through, so
that's been really important.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, and I think from my perspective, having you
know female in infrastructureprojects and advisory gives a
very different perspective towhat just the male perspective
would be.
So I think that is great thatyou are encouraging both your
(25:51):
three daughters.
I'm sure you've been able toencourage, mentor and empower
lots of other women along yourjourney.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes, and I actually had one story of someone who was
my EA and I felt she was sotalented I actually had
suggested that she go and do aproject management course.
She went and did that I fundedthat at the time and she's now a
very successful project managerin her own right, so really
(26:21):
proud to have another woman insenior infrastructure in that
space.
But I think you know MaverickAdvisors as well.
We're 50% female lead-on.
We've got lots of femaleinfrastructure advisors in our
team and that's really criticalto our success and we think
that's how you can offer it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah well, thank you for sharing that.
It's good to learn more aboutyou and your career and what you
do, and congratulations on thesuccess of Maverick Advisors to
date and all the future success.
Thank you for coming on.
Finance Friends, nadia, thanks,cheers.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
Welcome to the Finance Friends podcast.
Whether you have followed usfrom the beginning or you're a
new listener, we are excited tohave you here.
Finance Friends gives ourlisteners a seat at the table
with successful finance industryleaders.
Follow us on our socials atFinance Friends Podcast, linked
in the description box of thisepisode, and stay tuned for
(00:29):
weekly episode releases.
Today on the Finance FriendsPodcast we have Nadia Jaworski,
who is a joint founder andpartner of Maverick Advisors.
She provides socialinfrastructure advisory to both
government and the privatesector.
She's got over 25 yearsexperience working for the
(00:49):
government in socialinfrastructure advisory and
working in the private sector.
She has really insightfulstories and an understanding of
what it takes to get a socialgovernment or social
infrastructure project from anidea to working operation.
Listen in and don't forget tofollow us on Finance Friends
(01:09):
podcast.
Good morning, nadia.
Welcome to Finance Friends.
How are you today?
Thank you From Monday morning.
Monday morning it is early inthe morning, 9.30.
And you mentioned you had abusy weekend, lots of family
catch-ups, it's been great, youknow, catching up with everybody
.
Yeah, that's great, and you alsomentioned that you're in Force
(01:30):
Creek the other week, so whatbrings you to Force Creek?
Couldn't imagine there's anysnow in April.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
No, no, it's very beautiful down there.
However, I am on the board ofAlpine Resort Victoria.
What's pretty exciting aboutthat role is we're looking at
making sure that there's afinancial viability for the
sector for the snow, whiteseason and green season going
forward, and so it's veryimportant for economic returns
(01:57):
for Victoria around visitationdestination, and so we're
working really hard to make surethat there's a long-term
viability of skiing and resortsmore broadly.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And is it growing in Australia skiing?
Because I know a lot of peopleare going to Japan.
It's quite common.
Obviously Japanese yen's a bitlower and they get.
From my understanding, japangets the most snow in any
country in the world, so are youencouraging people to go come
domestically to Force Creek andresorts alike?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Look.
I think we have to realisewe've got a real natural beauty
in Victoria and in Australiathat's really unique for our
visitor destination points andalso the economic component of
regional communities and jobsand visitation just for national
parks, and so we're reallyencouraging and we know that
there's important investmentsthat are made to have that
(02:52):
unique experience in Victoria.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, you can go to Japan, but I think Australia's
got its own uniqueness aroundparks and snow and for green
season as well.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So there's lots of things happening around bike
riding and hiking and luge, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, and trail running has become really
popular too, and a few friendsof mine have done some trail
runs around that region.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, it's getting really popular.
We're making sure that there'sunique experiences all year
round.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, so being on the board.
So you're on the board of.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Alpine Resort Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay, so maybe touching a little bit more, what
does the, what does that roleinvolve?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
so really it's about making sure that all resorts
around victoria we'veamalgamated them into one entity
and making sure that there'sfinancial viability.
The other remit is aroundclimate change, but also making
sure that we've got FirstNations involvement as well,
(03:51):
because, as we do developmentsin natural parks and resources
and there's lots of differentFirst Nations areas.
We focus on Tanarong andGunai-Kerno, and so we're making
sure that there's a whole rangeof balancing those three things
around the financial viability,how we invest sustainably and
make sure that we've got futurelegacy outcomes for future
generations.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, so it's quite interesting that you're on the
board of Alpine Resorts.
How did you get there?
So maybe let's touch on yourcurrent role at Maverick
Advisors.
So you founded that businessand you're a partner of that
firm, so can you share a littlebit about Maverick Advisors and
what you do?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So Maverick Advisors is a boutique investment
strategy.
So that's financial investmentstrategy right through to
delivery all across the projectlifecycle investment strategy
right through to delivery acrossthe project life cycle.
But if I look about how I cameto Maverick and founding that I
spent a lot of my career insocial infrastructure and for me
(04:56):
that's been really important.
I'm Ukrainian heritage from animmigrant family on both sides,
and what was really important tomy family and the success of
our optimal family generationwas really having that sense of
community, community buildingand that made a difference.
So what that's meant for me isI've always leant towards
(05:20):
working with a socialinfrastructure and for those who
don't know the difference abouteconomic and social, it's
really around thinking aboutthings that you don't
necessarily pay for so socialhousing affordable housing,
hospitals, schools, all thethings that really make a
cohesive social fabric and makea difference in people's lives,
and so I spend a lot of time ingovernment state government in
(05:41):
those sectors, working my waythrough from delivery of those
construction projects right upto the front end of financing
them, working with what we callDepartment of Treasury and
Finance business cases, gettingthe funding and financing and
the different types of contractsto get those large scale
(06:02):
precincts or infrastructureprojects
Speaker 1 (06:04):
funded from Treasury and then into delivery.
Yeah, so what is the time taken?
Because to deliver let's say anexample, let's say a hospital
or a school, to deliver thatproject, from the initial
thoughts or understanding,there's a need to come and get
(06:26):
into working operation.
Can you talk through thatprocess and the time it takes so
someone like myself who's notfamiliar with that space can
understand what's involved?
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So generally if you look at something like the New
Footscray.
Hospital the $1.5 billion newWhizbang Hospital out in the
inner west it's probably about afive to six year end to end
project.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So we would start traditionally working on the
needs model, the demand data andthe business case would take
into consideration all of thatwhole of system requirements.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So if you don't have a cancer centre in that part of
the world or you don't havecertain services.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
We would do planning models of care, then get
developed and service plans andthen we start with what we would
call the feasibility study ofwhat sort of things would we
build where, and how the size,the scale that then informs a
business case.
So the Department of Treasuryand Finance has a very specific
(07:31):
template.
That document's quite intensiveand I've led those types of
business cases.
So I'll be working with a teamof technical experts as well as
economic experts.
So we will look at, for thedollar invested, invested,
what's the return of investmentback to the state into the
economy right through to whatwould be the design we work with
(07:53):
?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I work with architects, engineering planners
, the clinicians, the doctorsthemselves are on user groups to
say well, what would we designand what does that cost?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So you have a quantity surveyor that then
informs a pretty hefty documentusually around 200 pages lots of
risk, registers, cost plans,designs that really get stress
tested and then form aprocurement strategy of how we
would go to market.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So we would do market sounding with the big tier one
contractors.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I'm thinking people like Len Leases, john Hollands,
multiplexes of the world builds.
They get really involved andthey start to gear up for these
types of projects.
That would take about two yearsto get to the project sign off
and the funding being allocatedfrom Treasury going to market
(08:44):
and the build that can takeanother up to two years, and so
you can see they're quitelengthy projects.
Lots of involvement, end-to-endand lots of rigor.
Lots of stakeholder and usergroup components, but at the end
we we like to see brand newsocial infrastructure that
really meets the needs of thecommunity and using our taxpayer
(09:07):
dollars effectively, and that'swhere the financial sense
checking and the commercialmodelling is really important as
well, to make sure that thattransaction delivers on what the
state and the community expects.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, and what they ultimately, as a voting member
in the national or federalelections coming up in about
five weeks, votes for, and it'spart of the community and
growing the community.
So, no, it's great.
It's interesting you say thatbecause most of my brothers work
in construction.
They've both worked on theFootscray Hospital, so I don't
(09:40):
think they're working there atthe moment.
So what's Is the biggestchallenge through that process
in your role and maybe, if youcan share from working for the
government now working as anadvisor on those projects?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So I've worked on both sides, even outside, as an
advisor.
I've worked for government andI've worked for private client
side.
I think at the moment thebiggest challenge is very tight
fiscal environments, and sogovernment and private sector
both have to do a lot of rigouraround the investment strategies
(10:16):
when and how and how muchthey're likely to invest and
what are they likely?
To get for their investmentdollar and so I think that's
really changed.
During COVID and post-COVID wasquite a boom in infrastructure,
and so there was a lot more of apie investment pie to be
allocated, but we've really seenthe shift to a tighter market
(10:41):
for governments.
The government's reallystarting to reprioritise heavily
and refocus on what's the mostpointy end of infrastructure
they want to invest in.
So if you think about hospitals.
They'll be looking at what arethe top tranche that's really
critical for community and wherethe gaps are Same with road and
rail, and then for private sidewe're seeing a lot of clients
(11:03):
really starting to think aboutwell, if we are investing in
this global market, that's quiteunstable how certain are we?
Around the investment decisionsthat are being made and that
the return on that investment isgoing to deliver.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Not only the shareholders, but what
government?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
is also expecting as a partner.
So we're seeing that I'm seeingmuch more rigour around where
those decisions are being madeand the benefits.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
the benefit realisation is really highly
focused, and how much does thecurrent interest rate affect the
ability to, I guess, deliver aproject and the cost of finance?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Look, I think that it's, really it's not just the
interest rates I think it's thewhole global volatility of a
whole range of different drivers.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
If you take something like the Housing Availability
Affordability Fund by theCommonwealth that got set up to
try and manage that for housingassociations and housing
suppliers.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So that there was a much more certainty around
interest rate coverage and tomanage that volatility, so we
saw a lot of affordable andsocial housing projects
announced recently, and sothat's given more certainty for
people to invest for build, torent and key worker housing as
well.
In terms of something like thehospital projects.
(12:32):
We're really making sure thatwhen we're doing the business
cases, that those contingenciesare really costed as part of the
cost plan and the budget, tomake sure that there's room to
manage the coverage of anyescalation points.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
That's not only just on interest rates.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We're talking about supply chain cost of labour, and
we're still yet to see what thetrade tariff laws are going to
have as an impact so we'realways looking at contingencies
and making sure that thebudget's got that too.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, it's interesting from an external
point of view and just readingsort of papers AFR, et cetera we
do see a number of projectsthat do go over budget.
So can you share with us maybesome insights into why that is
the case and you know thingsthat maybe the average person
(13:25):
might not be aware of?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Look, there's lots of things that can impact.
I mean, if we have a thinkabout what happened during COVID
, the supply chain totally gotcut off in terms of what was
happening globally.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So, if you think about prices, of steel, timber
imports.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Really, if you had planned a project, a couple, of
years before COVID had kicked inyou would have found yourself
in a place where your budgetwould have been nowhere near
what the cost of the supplieswould have been budgeted for 18
months to 24 months earlier.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And so it's really about the volatility of the
market where we hadn't seen alot of that happening for a very
long time.
There's also big build, soVictoria's got a lot going on,
and so is Queensland at themoment with all their hospitals
and stadia and the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And so when you start to conflate a lot of big build
projects all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
What we find is that also escalates cost of materials
or labour shortages, tradessmaller trades that have to
impact.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Think about your electrical trades smaller trades
that have to impact.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
If you think about your electrical, mechanical,
your plumbing, and so you haveto start to think about all the
impacts that are happening inconcert that start to have
congestion points with bills,not only in Victoria but
nationally.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, of course.
And how did you get to whereyou are today?
So you talked about yourparents or grandparents being
migrants from Ukraine and talkedabout social infrastructure and
how important it is.
Did you know at the age of 15that you wanted to work in
social infrastructure advisory?
(15:04):
You talk us through thatprocess.
When did you know this is whatI want to do?
My dad was a global engineerand so at a very young age or
you talk us through that process.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
When did you know this is what I want to do?
This is what I want to do.
My dad was a global engineer,and so at a very young age he
made sure my sister and I werevery across how to use power
tools, all the electricalappliances, and so we were
always in and around hammers,drills, saws.
He also made sure, he and mymum, that we could absolutely be
(15:32):
whatever we wanted and weweren't really pushed into
gender-based jobs or training.
I really fell in love withsocial infrastructure when I
started in government in socialand affordable housing.
I spent a lot of time in thatspace changing the regulatory
framework, registering the firsthousing associations and
starting to do housing builds,housing redevelopments all the
(15:54):
public housing redevelopments,precinct redevelopments and
really loved being able to seetangible things being built
because I felt like I was makingan impact and I could really
see people going into thoseaffordable homes and seeing what
a difference it made to theirlives and then being able to
reconnect back into services,jobs, training, reconnecting
with families.
(16:14):
So that's where I started.
After 17 years in stategovernment.
I worked in health andeducation.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So I was doing school builds hospital builds mental
health facilities.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I ended up going to the dark side of consulting.
So I had a friend who saidwould I be willing to start up
the Asia Pacific socialinfrastructure?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
part of Advisium which was Wally Parsons, Evans
and Peck.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So I took that on board and took to it like a duck
to water, really enjoyed thediversity and all the challenges
that came with workingproviding advisory to both
government and private clients.
From there, I then moved into.
Speaker (16:55):
PricewaterhouseCoopers and was a partner in the
infrastructure business thereAgain really leading large-scale
social infrastructure projectslike the quarantine commercially
and nationally, so I wasrunning.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Mickelham in Vic, Queensland and WA in.
Covid out of my study Also justbeing able to do whole
portfolio pieces for Vic HealthBuilding Authority, running
portfolio investment strategiesand running all the business
cases, and so that really gaveme great exposure to large,
(17:29):
high-value, high-risk projectsand really found I love working
in uncertainty and shapinginvestment strategies and really
hearing all the differentstakeholders and all the
different needs and being ableto come up with concepts that
can balance a whole range ofdifferent priorities.
But it's been really importantdoing the delivery of projects
(17:49):
to be able to bring that up thelife cycle, to understand how to
do good strategy.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And how do you deal with the stress that there are
so many different factors thatcan influence the outcome,
whether it be positive ornegative?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'm probably a unique creature in that I quite like
living in uncertain bookerenvironments.
So those of you volatile,uncertain, complex, ambiguous
and really being able to shapeit.
That's really exciting for meTalking to a lot of stakeholders
and partners, understandingwhat's really driving and
motivating and being able towhat's really driving and
(18:29):
motivating and being able tohelp bring really complex
financial and investmentstrategies down to really simple
concepts that people canunderstand the tensions and
trade-offs and the decisionsthat they're making.
Because, often with optionality.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You do bookends you can do nothing, or you can do
the most gold-tapped version youdo bookends, you can do nothing
or you can do the mostgold-tapped version.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Really, where most people sit is the middle ground
which is the silver or bronze.
There's a real skill in beingable to show people what they're
buying and what they'reinvesting in, and what their
likely return on investment isand what they're not buying or
achieving and getting out ofsomething, and so we've been
able to hone that at Maverick.
We've been we really have justbeen.
(19:12):
We've got the most high-levelexperts in the field, both from
a political lens and deliverylens and investment strategy
that we don't use a leveragemodel.
We found that doesn't workbecause we really need the
smarts to really be able toshowcase for clients what their
dollar's really buying in thisreally critical fiscal
(19:32):
environment.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, and how do you see your industry or
infrastructure, socialinfrastructure, evolving over
the next five, ten years, or howwould you like to see it evolve
?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think we're going to have to get smarter to have
greater return on investment forcertain projects and I really
think that we need to make surethat the silos are being moved
away, and so what I mean by thatis if you've got a precinct
like Arden Precinct in NorthMelbourne, it can't be just a
hospital project, it can't bejust a housing project, it can't
(20:11):
be just a road or transportproject.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
We really need to start to think about communities
that we're building and theprecincts that we're building
and the precincts that we'rebuilding and so when we're
investing.
How are we, as custodians ofthese sites for legacy?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
outcomes.
How are we thinking about themas future?
Precincts for people to workaccess health services live meet
up with families and friends.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
How are we thinking about that investment as a
holistic precinct?
Redevelopment rather than justone individual investment and
construction projects on theirown.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, which is quite interesting.
You know, bring the communitytogether, that you know.
It's almost like your one-stopshop for everything.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And obviously there's .
You know we're always thinkingabout sustainability and so,
because we can't invest ineverything right now, there's
climate change and climatesustainability, but also about
how do you future proof andthink about considered stages of
investment so that we're notboxing out and blocking future
change or future investment orideas, so that because we've
(21:18):
seen too many times where I knowprojects, people will just
plonk something right in themiddle of a precinct without
really thinking about what's the10-year plan, what's the master
plan look like?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And how does it feed into future development and
population growth, and what willthe future needs be?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, so you see a lot about engaging various
different stakeholders at alocal council level all the way
up to state and Commonwealth butalso then you're talking about
dealing with, you know,lendlease Multiplex and these
large organisations tounderstand the budget and be
able to deliver that and presentyou know the opportunity for
(21:57):
investment.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
And we're starting to also see much more investment
from private equity super fundsinto social infrastructure.
They're now seeing them as realasset classes to have socially
conscious investment, and sowe're seeing that change as well
.
So they also want to see thatthere's future for investment
for their stakeholders andclients.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, that's great.
So if someone wants to get intosocial infrastructure advisory,
what advice would you give?
What advice would you give youryoung 22-year-old self?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think just give anything a go.
There's been a lot of timesalong my career I was asked to
take on a role or a project thatI thought I don't know if I
actually know how to do this.
But just trust in yourself andI think, just give anything a go
, because you learn from thoseprojects.
You meet new people.
(22:57):
The networking has been reallycritical for me how many times
I've been able to ring up a pastclient or a past partner that
I've worked with to retestsomething or revalidate, and it
is all about learning andtesting.
There's no one, nothing, it'snot one solution.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
There's lots of solutions.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And I co-design.
Co-design is really importantbecause that means people have
the opportunity to test and, youknow, give you feedback along
the way.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You don't have to own it all yourself, yeah, and just
be open to that feedback aswell and don't take it
personally.
So you talked about you knowreaching out to ex-partners that
you worked with.
Has there been someone that'sbeen a big influence on your
life throughout your career,whether it be early on?
You talked about your dad beingan engineer and really giving
you exposure to you know usehand tools and be open to
(23:52):
learning and doing differentthings.
Is there someone that comes tomind?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Look, I would still say I still ring my dad even now
if I've got a tricky scenarioor a strategy obviously
de-identified around even in myprofessional career around
testing which way I should go.
What are the options.
Have I thought about all therisks Again?
Just making sure there's a safesounding board to test?
(24:17):
Safe sounding board to test?
And very early on in my careerI was given opportunity by a
woman in power to give me justthat opportunity to try projects
early on where they were wayabove probably my skill set and
competency at the time Safeenvironments.
(24:38):
I think I've been just really,really I've had a lot of good
mentors along the way.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I've just been pretty lucky, I guess, and you seem
like you're a mentor yourself.
I know that your daughter workswith you a couple of days a
week while she's studying.
Are you being her mentor,empowering her to learn about
this space as well?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I have three daughters and so I'm really
passionate about women ininfrastructure.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think I really want to make sure my daughters and
all young women can see thatthis is a real pathway and a
roadmap for people that areinterested in something
different.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's really important that we've got those pathways,
both in business, inconstruction.
It means we've got the futuregenerations coming through, so
that's been really important.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, and I think from my perspective, having you
know female in infrastructureprojects and advisory gives a
very different perspective towhat just the male perspective
would be.
So I think that is great thatyou are encouraging both your
(25:51):
three daughters.
I'm sure you've been able toencourage, mentor and empower
lots of other women along yourjourney.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes, and I actually had one story of someone who was
my EA and I felt she was sotalented I actually had
suggested that she go and do aproject management course.
She went and did that I fundedthat at the time and she's now a
very successful project managerin her own right, so really
(26:21):
proud to have another woman insenior infrastructure in that
space.
But I think you know MaverickAdvisors as well.
We're 50% female lead-on.
We've got lots of femaleinfrastructure advisors in our
team and that's really criticalto our success and we think
that's how you can offer it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah well, thank you for sharing that.
It's good to learn more aboutyou and your career and what you
do, and congratulations on thesuccess of Maverick Advisors to
date and all the future success.
Thank you for coming on.
Finance Friends, nadia, thanks,cheers.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
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