December 18, 2024 • 24 mins
Join us in this week’s episode of Finance Friends with Fabian as we chat with Frank Campisi, mortgage broker and co-founder of Explore Finance. Frank opens up about his career journey from accounting to broking, the key skills for building trust with clients, and how he balances a busy professional life with running a farm and a childcare business.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Finance Friends with Fabian, where we
give our listeners anopportunity to be a part of our
conversation with financialservices industry leaders.
Hear their stories, thechallenges they've overcome and
the invaluable advice they havefor anyone interested in the
financial world.
Keep up to date with us byfollowing Finance Friends
podcast on Instagram and TikTok.
(00:28):
Welcome, frank Campisi, toFinance Friends with Fabian.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Good mate, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Well, thanks for coming into our office on
Collins Street.
It's great to have you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyou, frank.
What's your profession, andmaybe a little bit about your
personal life.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, mate, I'm a mortgage broker.
So I've been a mortgage brokerfor the last nine, 10 years
Prior to that I was in publicpractice as an accountant Sort
of made a bit of a change,career change early on.
I was about 24 and started myown business as a mortgage
broker and haven't really lookedback.
To be honest, you know, thefreedom and flexibility of the
(01:05):
job is great and it allows me tosort of get that balance of
family, work, holiday, fun, youknow, and yeah, all that all in
one Fantastic.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So maybe let's talk about your family.
So you recently had a thirdchild, a baby girl.
What's her name?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Baby pippa so pippa fantastic baby pippa.
I've got a four-year-oldjasmine, uh, three-year-old
freddie and uh, yeah, well,eight-week-old pippa, so we've
been busy covered.
Uh, didn't have much to do incovert, but uh, yeah, so things
are busy, but um, yeah, it'sgood, it's good, it's
challenging.
It's, uh, sometimes, yeah, themost challenging part of the day
(01:46):
is, yeah, sometimes, dealingwith kids.
There's no, uh, there's noright or wrong or no book that
you can read.
So it's every day is a new day,so but uh, yeah, sort of sets
you straight and sort ofprioritizes uh, you know what
you do work-wise and what you do, uh, yeah, every day yeah, and
it wouldn't be as rewarding ifit wasn't as challenging.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Correct, correct.
Anything that is superrewarding is challenging.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It doesn't come easy you get over one problem and the
next day is another one.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So yeah, so let's maybe take a step back in terms
of you started your career, sodid you do an accounting degree?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
yeah, so funny enough .
I actually started as startedan engineering degree, did two
years of that that and didn'tthink it was the right path for
me.
Ended up jumping intoaccounting, did that
fast-tracked that with a fewrecognitions of prior learning
and done that about two yearsand yeah jumped out to a firm
out in Fooscray.
So I got an opportunity outthere and yeah got working.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And what type of accounting were you doing?
Was it tax accounting?
Was it advisory?
Yeah, got working.
And what type of accountingwere you doing?
Was it tax?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
accounting.
Was it advisory?
Yeah, tax accounting.
So, being a grad, you know wedidn't sort of I left, you know
as a grad I suppose Didn't getto sort of experience, you know
enough time to get to thatbusiness services advisory.
So a lot of it was justback-end stuff and kind of saw
the writing on the wall when atthat point everyone started
going offshore and soon enoughyou know those jobs are at risk
(03:09):
and you know you could obviouslyoffshore data entry quite
easily and that's kind of whatyou get going as a graduate
accountant.
So I think it's a bit differentnow.
They sort of don't jump indoing you know debits and
credits.
They jump in a bit more on thehairy stuff.
But yeah, sort of found thatafter a couple of years of
working for someone it wasn'tfor me.
(03:30):
So I thought you know what,living at home, mum and dad what
a better opportunity to sort ofjump in and try something.
Yeah, you know pretty much alaptop and a diploma, you know,
and what is it?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
$4,000, $5,000 set-up cost, and you're on your way.
So maybe, at what point did yourealise that maybe being an
accountant wasn't for you?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, well, I don't always want to reflect
everything back to money, but Istarted as a grad on a $40,000
salary, including super,including everything else, and I
saw some of the boys there andwhat they were sort of earning
five, six, seven years later andI sort of said, well, you know,
at that time, when you're on 40grand housing prices or where
they are, I thought, well, howam I actually going to get ahead
(04:18):
in life and at what point, youknow, am I going to get there?
So I kind of looked and said,well, I need to change it up.
I need to either accelerate mycareer within accounting or try
something new.
And numbers have always madesense to me.
So you know, it worked reallywell for me.
I thought, you know what, let'sgive it a go, I can always go
(04:38):
back.
You know, again, I was lucky.
I've got a father who's, youknow, very supportive of it.
You know, when I first told him, he was a bit, you know how are
you doing about it.
But after that I thought, youknow, he saw, you know, put his
head down, bum up, startedworking, networking.
It was a slow burn, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Had to start.
So why mortgage broking?
So you've told me why money wasa reason.
But how did you go fromthinking, okay, debits, credits
let's lodge your personal ITR toactually saying you know what I
want?
To help people to get financefor a home.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, I suppose I went for a few job interviews in
banking just to sort of.
I suppose I didn't know reallywhat I was getting into.
So I thought, you know what,let's give something else a try.
This is not loving it, so, youknow, let's maybe try banking,
sort of.
Looked at the corporate worldsales.
I like to think I'm a goodpeople's person, you know.
(05:32):
Yeah, some people say I don'tshut up.
So you know, I get talking andyeah, I sort of thought, well,
let's try something a bitdifferent, really know what I
was getting myself into at thatpoint in time.
But I just knew I needed achange.
So, you know, I kind of wentout on a limb thinking, well,
either like it or I won't likeit, but I'll find it pretty fast
and, worst case, in 12 months Irealised I didn't like it.
(05:56):
I you know, go somewhere else,go back to accounting, kind of
also hadn't backed my mind, it'snot really hard to make 40
grand.
So you know I was doing 40hours a week.
And then you know, come taxtime, you know you had to do
extra and all that kind of stuffand I get it comes with.
You know it comes to theterritory of being a tax
accountant but I kind of thoughtit wasn't hard to replace that.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
You know you have to do the numbers.
A couple of deals.
It's not that many deals andit's like, so you know 25, 26?
.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No 23, 24.
Yeah okay.
Yeah, so maybe 24 actually,because I'm 10 years.
Yeah, so 24 would have been.
Yeah, so yeah.
So that had its challengesthere being young, trying to get
people to trust us with theirmoney and their life decisions
and trying to get that across.
It was, I do recall, and I'vesaid it to her in the past, one
(06:54):
of the managers at theaccounting firm just said you
know, when I was leaving, youknow I feel you'll struggle
because of your age and gettingpeople to trust you.
You know, a couple of yearslater I'll start doing helping
them on some of their clients.
And I said, well, you know,took what you said and took it
on board and you know it was atthe start I kind of found it a
bit disheartening, but at thesame time I then said, well,
(07:15):
let's use it, you know, let'suse it against and prove it
wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, use it as a motivator?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, so I think I did you know I turned that
pretty well and I've got someyou know quite.
You know, I kind of looked,yeah, saw them and trying to
speak to them, and I just sawthat you know they saw me as a
(07:40):
kid.
But again, use that, do better,work harder and just sort of
overcome that and let my numbers, let my you know my offerings
come out there and show peoplewhat I can actually do.
And you know there's a lot ofbrokers out there that are great
at their job.
Then there's some that are justsalesmen.
You know, and that's reality aswell, as a broker you're a
(08:01):
salesman for a bank.
You sell a product, or you workfor the client but sell a bank
product in a sense.
But it's that next level whereyou go into that detail and you
know, help to you know, jumpinto the taxes side of things
and help to you know sort ofmotivate them to make their
money work better for them andnot look people as a, you know,
as a client, but as a customer,a long-term thing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, so long-term client rather than a short-term
customer, Correct?
Yeah, Now that makes sense.
So for people that don't knowwhat a mortgage broker is,
obviously our podcast istargeted to people across.
Maybe that might be looking atswitching careers or studying
finance, or even maybe 15 or16-year-old doesn't know what
they want to do.
So what does a mortgage brokeractually do in layman's terms?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, okay.
So a mortgage broker will goout and navigate the finance
world on a client's behalf.
So a client will come to uswith a scenario or hey, I want
to do this.
And then our job is to go outthere and look at what banks are
offering what policies are outthere that best suit the client.
So you know, when you work fora bank, you're very well-versed
(09:10):
around their one policy or theirofferings.
Yep yep, but as a mortgagebroker, you know I've got 53-odd
lenders on my panel and again,I don't know all of them back to
front, but you've got the mainones and you know.
You know, for self-employedclients you end up here, so it's
(09:32):
just a matter of you there, theright lender, I suppose, and
then come back with options.
And I think part of the role asa mortgage broker is not just
to do that but also to educatethe clients as to why, because
ultimately they make thedecision.
I've always said the last thingI want is a client to blame me
for something we've done.
I'd like to educate and makethem make the decision so they
know the rationale as to whywe've done.
(09:52):
I like to educate and make themmake the decision so they know
the rationale as to why we'vedone it.
And then you know,unfortunately there's no crystal
ball that tells us.
You know what's coming up.
So if something does gopear-shaped, they know that that
could happen.
They know the risks andobviously what we can do at that
point later on.
But ultimately, you know, Ilike to educate the client so
(10:13):
they're on the same page andthey're making decisions.
I say to them I'm not alwaysgoing to be a mortgage broker.
You know, mortgage brokers welike to think like accountants,
who usually you get with one andyou know you'd like to stay
with them for a while.
But ultimately, you know, aspeople change, they get into
relationships and businesses andpeople tend to move.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, so you know.
So, in terms of a mortgagebroker, ultimately you provide
the best finance solutions inthe market for that client's
situation.
Correct, so that might bebuying their first home.
It might be if they want toborrow money for a business real
property, or if they want tobuy a commercial property, or
(10:54):
even, you know, potentially doyou do finance for businesses.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so we do a lot of cash flow, lending and things
like that.
So I like to think that as abroker, we offer a solution.
Rate is always a hot topic, butsome people unfortunately
decisions in their life and youknow the way things have turned
out.
They haven't got the benefit ofgoing and taking the best rate
at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So it's a solution to a problem.
Yeah, and we work at then, youknow, we get them on board, get
that sorted and then work at thenext stage.
So, yeah, we do businessfinance, we do asset finance.
Super funds now are starting toreally, you know, take motion.
Yeah, a lot of lenders havepulled out of the market, but
the ones that are doing it aredoing it well and I suppose it's
(11:37):
just another vehicle for peopleto invest in and while the
money is sort of tight, peoplehave got some cash in their
super and are opting to investin that space.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Fantastic.
No, that's really great.
So obviously you spoke aboutearlier in the podcast around
having three young kids whichkeep you on your toes, no doubt
amongst many other projectsoutside of working as a
self-employed mortgage broker.
But what does your typical daylook like?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, okay.
So I mean lots of coffee, lotsand lots of coffee.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
As you just had a sip of your coffee.
Yeah, correct, correct, so.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I'm trying to cut that down so we sort of get in.
We do spend a lot of time onthe phone chasing banks and
chasing clients, so from aday-to-day stuff a phone call
will come in from a referrer ofours.
We mainly just deal withreferrers ourselves.
Obviously, cold calls would begreat too, but they don't sort
(12:33):
of come in as well as referralphone calls.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So that might be referrals from an accountant or
a lawyer or an existing client,et cetera, correct?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yep.
So that's where we spend a lotof our time in building those
relationships, because they'revery fruitful.
And I suppose when you've got agood team around you between
accountants, lawyers, theclients do feel at home a lot
easier, do feel at home a loteasier.
So, yeah, we spend a lot oftime on them.
So, you know, a call might comein from a referrer.
We'll call the client, engagein a conversation around you
know what they're looking to do,just at a high level and it all
(13:02):
sounds all good.
We sort of talk what they wantto do.
You know, is it achievable?
Some people aren't veryrealistic in their expectations.
Some people have, you know, alot of people talk, do what we
call Sunday barbecue talk, wheremy friend's got this, I want
this.
So we sort of, you know, pullthem back to earth sometimes.
Yeah, we have those upfrontconversations and let them know
the process and then, yeah, wesort of get across to them and
(13:25):
we'll get some info out.
They'll start collatinginformation and then we'll start
, you know, really looking atpolicies if needed.
Some are we won't get as manyas I'd like, but some are nice
vanilla deals, but they're aunicorn.
So, yeah, ultimately, then, alot of people just chase rates
If there's cashbacks that kindof jazz.
So really get into the market,pull some comparisons up, get
(13:47):
them off to the client.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So it's a lot of time chasing up banks, understanding
what's happening in the market,updating your clients,
submitting deals, et cetera, andthen just following up to make
sure that everything's runningsmoothly, correct.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, we also put a lot of effort into our
relationships with the banks,with our BDMs, understanding new
policies and not just sort ofreading them but actually
understanding them andworkshopping them with the BDMs.
So you know as much as we wantto build that relationship with
the bank itself, ultimately it'sthe BDM that holds most of the
weight there.
So we build those relationshipsand you know the better those
relationships are.
(14:21):
You know, when you have a dealthat's sort of struggling a
little bit with the policy, youcan really lean on the BDM to
help.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
You know, work on that out, yeah fantastic Because
obviously you deal with banksand then non-banks as well,
Correct which they've becomequite.
They're growing especially alot bigger in the US but in
Australia.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
They seem to be growing.
I think the big four were once.
I find the we'll call them theold school.
We'll try to remain with thebig four.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They just feel comfortable with them.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But a lot of the new generation will go with your
Macquarie's, your Suncorps.
And you kind of look at thosebanks and think, well, they're
great banks, great offerings,great policies, yeah.
But a lot of people aren't opento, you know, considerate.
Yeah, they want a branch.
And then you ask them when'sthe last time you walked on a
branch?
And they can't remember.
(15:08):
So we're starting to sort ofeducate people as to why other
banks are worth looking at.
Yeah.
And then obviously there's someclients that don't even have
second tiers.
They've made decisions in lifeor unfortunate things have
popped up where they've now gotto go to a third-tier bank.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, and we deal with that and we work through
that, we might move on and justget an understanding of what
makes a.
What are the key?
Give me three key skillsrequired to be a successful
mortgage broker.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, okay, I think listening is very key.
Understanding what the clientwants, yeah, you know, and yeah,
because a lot of people willsort of, you know, want finance.
That's one thing, but reallyunderstanding what they want and
that way you can give them thebest solution.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, so listening would be one, Yep listening.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Oh, this one's caught me off guard.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What do you think your best skills are?
Networking.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, networking, listening, building
relationships, yeah, andactually caring, yeah, you know
it sounds pretty silly to say,but you know, actually caring
about the outcome for the client, yeah, so you know, I kind of
take things a bit more personal.
When things don't go theclient's way, I feel it and I
wear it.
So, yeah, but no, definitelylistening.
(16:23):
You know you need to have agood understanding on um.
You know numbers and what theylook like and how they work, and
um and real world, um, how thereal world works, you know it's
just not just a scenario onpaper, like you know in training
and when you do your diploma,like it's actually real world.
If you know you're three monthslate to get the settlement
(16:43):
across.
Someone's losing out on money,yeah, um.
So just having some compassionas well, you know, I think if
you can tick those off, I meanthe computer and the systems now
can do the rest for you.
You know they can work outrepayments.
You're not having to work allthat out yourself.
You plug it into the computerand they do all that work.
But just being, you know, areal human is probably you know
key.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So tell us a little bit about your business.
So you know, maybe you know howbig is the business.
How many clients would you lookafter?
Yep, yep, ongoing.
Give me a bit of insight intoyour business.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, okay.
So Explore Finance, we sort ofstarted about two years ago, so
prior to that I was marketingfinance solo broker.
You know, being a broker canalso be a bit lonely.
So I teamed up with ourbusiness partner, luke Asigle,
and we sort of pushed ExploreFinance and kind of.
You know, he looks afteroperations and business growth
(17:34):
and he, you know, while I focuson the clients, someone's
working on the business to helpgrow the business We've got.
We had a book at that point.
We had a book for about, I'dlike to say about, $350 million,
I reckon, in business written,and within six months we
actually bought another book ofequal size, which was a scary
(17:55):
process.
But in saying that, thegentleman we bought it from is a
good operator.
He still runs a financialplanning business and we still
work a lot together.
So, yeah, it's worked outreally well, I think.
So, yeah, it was quite scary tosort of commit to something
like that.
Yeah, but it's been veryfruitful, which is good and yeah
(18:17):
.
So then, yeah, so I suppose nowwe've got to double the size in
terms of clients to look after,and I think in today's you know
the the environment, today,hiring has been a bit difficult,
I mean, you know all about itat.
Viva recruitment, vivarecruitment.
But um, yeah, it's kind of oneof those things where we've had
a few unfortunate hires.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
We're learning as we go, what we?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
look for what not to look for.
And yeah, a few of them youknow been a yeah kind of been on
the bum a few times where youyou put people on, you call in a
lot of work now because youwant to feed them work, and then
it doesn't work out.
Now I've needed to maintainthat work so big hours.
So, luke and I we've got twooffshores.
We have Alina out in Zimbabwe.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
So she's trained by another broker here in Melbourne
who does really well and, yeah,she trains them.
So they sort of come, they knowthe mortgage broker industry
and they do a lot of ourback-end data entry, collating
documentation, you know,liaising with the clients and
collecting everything.
Yeah, While we then focus on,you know, the solutions for the
(19:19):
clients.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I suppose, fantastic.
And now touching a little bitmore on you.
So you talked about, obviously,starting engineering, going
into accounting, and then, youknow, working as a mortgage
broker and being, you know,setting your own business up at
24.
Who?
And you talked about your dadsupporting you has your dad been
the biggest influence on you inyour career, or is there
someone that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Pretty much you know from a, from a father figure, to
, yeah, to, I suppose, just hiswork ethic.
You know, in life I suppose youdon't really sort of talk about
it all that much, but itobviously has reflected and has
helped pave the way for me.
So, yeah, I reckonsubconsciously somewhere there
(20:01):
as well, it's just sort of seethat work ethic, the big hours,
so you're not afraid, don't careabout work and doing all that.
So yeah, I'd say definitely he'splayed a big role in that and
you know as much as you knowfamily values, family you know,
values, traditions and that kindof stuff.
So yeah, so it's really set meup, I think yeah awesome and
(20:22):
outside of work.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
we've spoken about having three kids.
You're a big Richmond supporter.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I don't know anymore, but yeah, yeah well as the last
five years.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
You're up and about, maybe dropped off a little bit,
with lots of draft picks comingup.
I think you'll be prettyexcited over the next few years.
You've also lived out in Romseyand have a big farm with lots
of lamb.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, so we run a 180 head sheep've got about six
Angus at the moment.
So you know it keeps me busy.
So actually, from finance toshearing, you know last week
shearing the sheep.
So people always have a laughand like, oh, what are you doing
?
I'm shearing sheep, what areyou talking about?
So it's a good break up, Isuppose, from you know that
world to just out there.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I mean yeah, Getting out in fresh air is great, and
then you also set up and run achildcare business too.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, so yeah, we started up Little Stones.
Now We've been 14 monthsoperating out of Romsey.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
We've got another three sites coming up now.
So yeah, the idea is, you know,the wife does really good job,
has done a really good jobgetting that up and running.
Yeah, has done a really goodjob getting that up and running.
Now she's obviously tending tothe family, the little one and
we've hired a director to runRomsey at the moment, which is
doing really well.
You know it helps when you'vegot good families and good
people working for you as well.
So, yeah, we like to sort ofcelebrate those little wins.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think that's really important.
You say that because obviouslyyou know you run your own
mortgage.
Business've got a.
You've got a farm, you've gotyeah, it's about 150 you said
and then you've got.
You've got cows.
You've also running a childcare business that you're
growing yeah, so how do you justkeep?
You just keep going and pushingwhat's the what's the success
(22:01):
or what do you think the the keytraits to, to just having that
go-getter attitude?
Coffee.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
No, I don't know.
Just, I like to always keepbusy.
You know, I don't think there's.
I love, you know, I love what Ido.
I love business in general.
So you know, finance isobviously a big part of it, but
I love just business.
I love new stuff.
I like challenges.
Yeah, I always.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat I'm doing, I challenges
yeah, I've always.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat I'm doing, I'm always
trying to do something.
(22:28):
So the wife, yeah, she alwayssays to slow down, hit my dad,
you know, slow down, like.
You know, you've got plenty oftime, you're 34, so take your
time.
But yeah, not that I'm.
Yeah, it's like get going.
You know, I want to the idea isyou?
know.
Put the effort in now but atthe same time not lose Sign of
(22:48):
what's important in life, yeah,the kids time and all that you
know.
I'm hoping I'll be able to getoff a little bit early today and
go trick-or-treating with thekids tonight.
So just try to enjoy thoselittle things yeah so, yeah,
little things, the kids, youknow it, it's all everything to
them.
So yeah just trying to tickthose little boxes.
So you know I try to.
(23:09):
You know, obviously, romsey'sfrom where I operate, out of
Essendon.
He's about an hour drive, sobig drive in but you know I kind
of you know sort of wait aroundjust to see the kids before
they get up, because I know it'sa late night, you know.
So, yeah, little things likethat just help you keep going.
Oh, definitely it doesn'tmatter how bad of a day you get,
when you get home and thelittle ones are there, that's it
(23:29):
.
Phone's away and nothing elsematters.
So you know, just go hard onthat.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thanks for coming in.
I appreciate you and your time,and thanks for sharing insight
into your career and yoursuccess.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And also about being a mortgage broker and what that
entails.
And yeah, look forward tocatching up again soon.
Sounds good.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Thank you, thanks, mate.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And that's the wrap for this episode and for our
first season of Finance Friendswith Fabian.
It's been an incredible journeythus far, bringing you stories,
insights and advice from someof the most inspiring voices in
the financial services industry.
We want to take a moment tothank our listeners for tuning
in and supporting FinanceFriends with Fabian.
Your encouragement and feedbackhas meant the world to us and
(24:17):
we can't wait to bring you moreexciting people and stories and
conversations in 2025.
From all of us, from FinanceFriends with Fabian, have an
amazing, enjoyable holiday overthe break.
Thank you from myself, FabianRuggieri and Sienna Bartolomeo,
our producer.
See you in 2025.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
Welcome to Finance Friends with Fabian, where we
give our listeners anopportunity to be a part of our
conversation with financialservices industry leaders.
Hear their stories, thechallenges they've overcome and
the invaluable advice they havefor anyone interested in the
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Keep up to date with us byfollowing Finance Friends
podcast on Instagram and TikTok.
(00:28):
Welcome, frank Campisi, toFinance Friends with Fabian.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Good mate, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Well, thanks for coming into our office on
Collins Street.
It's great to have you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyou, frank.
What's your profession, andmaybe a little bit about your
personal life.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, mate, I'm a mortgage broker.
So I've been a mortgage brokerfor the last nine, 10 years
Prior to that I was in publicpractice as an accountant Sort
of made a bit of a change,career change early on.
I was about 24 and started myown business as a mortgage
broker and haven't really lookedback.
To be honest, you know, thefreedom and flexibility of the
(01:05):
job is great and it allows me tosort of get that balance of
family, work, holiday, fun, youknow, and yeah, all that all in
one Fantastic.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So maybe let's talk about your family.
So you recently had a thirdchild, a baby girl.
What's her name?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Baby pippa so pippa fantastic baby pippa.
I've got a four-year-oldjasmine, uh, three-year-old
freddie and uh, yeah, well,eight-week-old pippa, so we've
been busy covered.
Uh, didn't have much to do incovert, but uh, yeah, so things
are busy, but um, yeah, it'sgood, it's good, it's
challenging.
It's, uh, sometimes, yeah, themost challenging part of the day
(01:46):
is, yeah, sometimes, dealingwith kids.
There's no, uh, there's noright or wrong or no book that
you can read.
So it's every day is a new day,so but uh, yeah, sort of sets
you straight and sort ofprioritizes uh, you know what
you do work-wise and what you do, uh, yeah, every day yeah, and
it wouldn't be as rewarding ifit wasn't as challenging.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Correct, correct.
Anything that is superrewarding is challenging.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It doesn't come easy you get over one problem and the
next day is another one.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So yeah, so let's maybe take a step back in terms
of you started your career, sodid you do an accounting degree?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
yeah, so funny enough .
I actually started as startedan engineering degree, did two
years of that that and didn'tthink it was the right path for
me.
Ended up jumping intoaccounting, did that
fast-tracked that with a fewrecognitions of prior learning
and done that about two yearsand yeah jumped out to a firm
out in Fooscray.
So I got an opportunity outthere and yeah got working.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And what type of accounting were you doing?
Was it tax accounting?
Was it advisory?
Yeah, got working.
And what type of accountingwere you doing?
Was it tax?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
accounting.
Was it advisory?
Yeah, tax accounting.
So, being a grad, you know wedidn't sort of I left, you know
as a grad I suppose Didn't getto sort of experience, you know
enough time to get to thatbusiness services advisory.
So a lot of it was justback-end stuff and kind of saw
the writing on the wall when atthat point everyone started
going offshore and soon enoughyou know those jobs are at risk
(03:09):
and you know you could obviouslyoffshore data entry quite
easily and that's kind of whatyou get going as a graduate
accountant.
So I think it's a bit differentnow.
They sort of don't jump indoing you know debits and
credits.
They jump in a bit more on thehairy stuff.
But yeah, sort of found thatafter a couple of years of
working for someone it wasn'tfor me.
(03:30):
So I thought you know what,living at home, mum and dad what
a better opportunity to sort ofjump in and try something.
Yeah, you know pretty much alaptop and a diploma, you know,
and what is it?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
$4,000, $5,000 set-up cost, and you're on your way.
So maybe, at what point did yourealise that maybe being an
accountant wasn't for you?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, well, I don't always want to reflect
everything back to money, but Istarted as a grad on a $40,000
salary, including super,including everything else, and I
saw some of the boys there andwhat they were sort of earning
five, six, seven years later andI sort of said, well, you know,
at that time, when you're on 40grand housing prices or where
they are, I thought, well, howam I actually going to get ahead
(04:18):
in life and at what point, youknow, am I going to get there?
So I kind of looked and said,well, I need to change it up.
I need to either accelerate mycareer within accounting or try
something new.
And numbers have always madesense to me.
So you know, it worked reallywell for me.
I thought, you know what, let'sgive it a go, I can always go
(04:38):
back.
You know, again, I was lucky.
I've got a father who's, youknow, very supportive of it.
You know, when I first told him, he was a bit, you know how are
you doing about it.
But after that I thought, youknow, he saw, you know, put his
head down, bum up, startedworking, networking.
It was a slow burn, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Had to start.
So why mortgage broking?
So you've told me why money wasa reason.
But how did you go fromthinking, okay, debits, credits
let's lodge your personal ITR toactually saying you know what I
want?
To help people to get financefor a home.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, I suppose I went for a few job interviews in
banking just to sort of.
I suppose I didn't know reallywhat I was getting into.
So I thought, you know what,let's give something else a try.
This is not loving it, so, youknow, let's maybe try banking,
sort of.
Looked at the corporate worldsales.
I like to think I'm a goodpeople's person, you know.
(05:32):
Yeah, some people say I don'tshut up.
So you know, I get talking andyeah, I sort of thought, well,
let's try something a bitdifferent, really know what I
was getting myself into at thatpoint in time.
But I just knew I needed achange.
So, you know, I kind of wentout on a limb thinking, well,
either like it or I won't likeit, but I'll find it pretty fast
and, worst case, in 12 months Irealised I didn't like it.
(05:56):
I you know, go somewhere else,go back to accounting, kind of
also hadn't backed my mind, it'snot really hard to make 40
grand.
So you know I was doing 40hours a week.
And then you know, come taxtime, you know you had to do
extra and all that kind of stuffand I get it comes with.
You know it comes to theterritory of being a tax
accountant but I kind of thoughtit wasn't hard to replace that.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
You know you have to do the numbers.
A couple of deals.
It's not that many deals andit's like, so you know 25, 26?
.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No 23, 24.
Yeah okay.
Yeah, so maybe 24 actually,because I'm 10 years.
Yeah, so 24 would have been.
Yeah, so yeah.
So that had its challengesthere being young, trying to get
people to trust us with theirmoney and their life decisions
and trying to get that across.
It was, I do recall, and I'vesaid it to her in the past, one
(06:54):
of the managers at theaccounting firm just said you
know, when I was leaving, youknow I feel you'll struggle
because of your age and gettingpeople to trust you.
You know, a couple of yearslater I'll start doing helping
them on some of their clients.
And I said, well, you know,took what you said and took it
on board and you know it was atthe start I kind of found it a
bit disheartening, but at thesame time I then said, well,
(07:15):
let's use it, you know, let'suse it against and prove it
wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, use it as a motivator?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, so I think I did you know I turned that
pretty well and I've got someyou know quite.
You know, I kind of looked,yeah, saw them and trying to
speak to them, and I just sawthat you know they saw me as a
(07:40):
kid.
But again, use that, do better,work harder and just sort of
overcome that and let my numbers, let my you know my offerings
come out there and show peoplewhat I can actually do.
And you know there's a lot ofbrokers out there that are great
at their job.
Then there's some that are justsalesmen.
You know, and that's reality aswell, as a broker you're a
(08:01):
salesman for a bank.
You sell a product, or you workfor the client but sell a bank
product in a sense.
But it's that next level whereyou go into that detail and you
know, help to you know, jumpinto the taxes side of things
and help to you know sort ofmotivate them to make their
money work better for them andnot look people as a, you know,
as a client, but as a customer,a long-term thing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, so long-term client rather than a short-term
customer, Correct?
Yeah, Now that makes sense.
So for people that don't knowwhat a mortgage broker is,
obviously our podcast istargeted to people across.
Maybe that might be looking atswitching careers or studying
finance, or even maybe 15 or16-year-old doesn't know what
they want to do.
So what does a mortgage brokeractually do in layman's terms?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, okay.
So a mortgage broker will goout and navigate the finance
world on a client's behalf.
So a client will come to uswith a scenario or hey, I want
to do this.
And then our job is to go outthere and look at what banks are
offering what policies are outthere that best suit the client.
So you know, when you work fora bank, you're very well-versed
(09:10):
around their one policy or theirofferings.
Yep yep, but as a mortgagebroker, you know I've got 53-odd
lenders on my panel and again,I don't know all of them back to
front, but you've got the mainones and you know.
You know, for self-employedclients you end up here, so it's
(09:32):
just a matter of you there, theright lender, I suppose, and
then come back with options.
And I think part of the role asa mortgage broker is not just
to do that but also to educatethe clients as to why, because
ultimately they make thedecision.
I've always said the last thingI want is a client to blame me
for something we've done.
I'd like to educate and makethem make the decision so they
know the rationale as to whywe've done.
(09:52):
I like to educate and make themmake the decision so they know
the rationale as to why we'vedone it.
And then you know,unfortunately there's no crystal
ball that tells us.
You know what's coming up.
So if something does gopear-shaped, they know that that
could happen.
They know the risks andobviously what we can do at that
point later on.
But ultimately, you know, Ilike to educate the client so
(10:13):
they're on the same page andthey're making decisions.
I say to them I'm not alwaysgoing to be a mortgage broker.
You know, mortgage brokers welike to think like accountants,
who usually you get with one andyou know you'd like to stay
with them for a while.
But ultimately, you know, aspeople change, they get into
relationships and businesses andpeople tend to move.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, so you know.
So, in terms of a mortgagebroker, ultimately you provide
the best finance solutions inthe market for that client's
situation.
Correct, so that might bebuying their first home.
It might be if they want toborrow money for a business real
property, or if they want tobuy a commercial property, or
(10:54):
even, you know, potentially doyou do finance for businesses.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so we do a lot of cash flow, lending and things
like that.
So I like to think that as abroker, we offer a solution.
Rate is always a hot topic, butsome people unfortunately
decisions in their life and youknow the way things have turned
out.
They haven't got the benefit ofgoing and taking the best rate
at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So it's a solution to a problem.
Yeah, and we work at then, youknow, we get them on board, get
that sorted and then work at thenext stage.
So, yeah, we do businessfinance, we do asset finance.
Super funds now are starting toreally, you know, take motion.
Yeah, a lot of lenders havepulled out of the market, but
the ones that are doing it aredoing it well and I suppose it's
(11:37):
just another vehicle for peopleto invest in and while the
money is sort of tight, peoplehave got some cash in their
super and are opting to investin that space.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Fantastic.
No, that's really great.
So obviously you spoke aboutearlier in the podcast around
having three young kids whichkeep you on your toes, no doubt
amongst many other projectsoutside of working as a
self-employed mortgage broker.
But what does your typical daylook like?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, okay.
So I mean lots of coffee, lotsand lots of coffee.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
As you just had a sip of your coffee.
Yeah, correct, correct, so.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I'm trying to cut that down so we sort of get in.
We do spend a lot of time onthe phone chasing banks and
chasing clients, so from aday-to-day stuff a phone call
will come in from a referrer ofours.
We mainly just deal withreferrers ourselves.
Obviously, cold calls would begreat too, but they don't sort
(12:33):
of come in as well as referralphone calls.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So that might be referrals from an accountant or
a lawyer or an existing client,et cetera, correct?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yep.
So that's where we spend a lotof our time in building those
relationships, because they'revery fruitful.
And I suppose when you've got agood team around you between
accountants, lawyers, theclients do feel at home a lot
easier, do feel at home a loteasier.
So, yeah, we spend a lot oftime on them.
So, you know, a call might comein from a referrer.
We'll call the client, engagein a conversation around you
know what they're looking to do,just at a high level and it all
(13:02):
sounds all good.
We sort of talk what they wantto do.
You know, is it achievable?
Some people aren't veryrealistic in their expectations.
Some people have, you know, alot of people talk, do what we
call Sunday barbecue talk, wheremy friend's got this, I want
this.
So we sort of, you know, pullthem back to earth sometimes.
Yeah, we have those upfrontconversations and let them know
the process and then, yeah, wesort of get across to them and
(13:25):
we'll get some info out.
They'll start collatinginformation and then we'll start
, you know, really looking atpolicies if needed.
Some are we won't get as manyas I'd like, but some are nice
vanilla deals, but they're aunicorn.
So, yeah, ultimately, then, alot of people just chase rates
If there's cashbacks that kindof jazz.
So really get into the market,pull some comparisons up, get
(13:47):
them off to the client.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So it's a lot of time chasing up banks, understanding
what's happening in the market,updating your clients,
submitting deals, et cetera, andthen just following up to make
sure that everything's runningsmoothly, correct.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, we also put a lot of effort into our
relationships with the banks,with our BDMs, understanding new
policies and not just sort ofreading them but actually
understanding them andworkshopping them with the BDMs.
So you know as much as we wantto build that relationship with
the bank itself, ultimately it'sthe BDM that holds most of the
weight there.
So we build those relationshipsand you know the better those
relationships are.
(14:21):
You know, when you have a dealthat's sort of struggling a
little bit with the policy, youcan really lean on the BDM to
help.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
You know, work on that out, yeah fantastic Because
obviously you deal with banksand then non-banks as well,
Correct which they've becomequite.
They're growing especially alot bigger in the US but in
Australia.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
They seem to be growing.
I think the big four were once.
I find the we'll call them theold school.
We'll try to remain with thebig four.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They just feel comfortable with them.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But a lot of the new generation will go with your
Macquarie's, your Suncorps.
And you kind of look at thosebanks and think, well, they're
great banks, great offerings,great policies, yeah.
But a lot of people aren't opento, you know, considerate.
Yeah, they want a branch.
And then you ask them when'sthe last time you walked on a
branch?
And they can't remember.
(15:08):
So we're starting to sort ofeducate people as to why other
banks are worth looking at.
Yeah.
And then obviously there's someclients that don't even have
second tiers.
They've made decisions in lifeor unfortunate things have
popped up where they've now gotto go to a third-tier bank.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, and we deal with that and we work through
that, we might move on and justget an understanding of what
makes a.
What are the key?
Give me three key skillsrequired to be a successful
mortgage broker.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, okay, I think listening is very key.
Understanding what the clientwants, yeah, you know, and yeah,
because a lot of people willsort of, you know, want finance.
That's one thing, but reallyunderstanding what they want and
that way you can give them thebest solution.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, so listening would be one, Yep listening.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Oh, this one's caught me off guard.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What do you think your best skills are?
Networking.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, networking, listening, building
relationships, yeah, andactually caring, yeah, you know
it sounds pretty silly to say,but you know, actually caring
about the outcome for the client, yeah, so you know, I kind of
take things a bit more personal.
When things don't go theclient's way, I feel it and I
wear it.
So, yeah, but no, definitelylistening.
(16:23):
You know you need to have agood understanding on um.
You know numbers and what theylook like and how they work, and
um and real world, um, how thereal world works, you know it's
just not just a scenario onpaper, like you know in training
and when you do your diploma,like it's actually real world.
If you know you're three monthslate to get the settlement
(16:43):
across.
Someone's losing out on money,yeah, um.
So just having some compassionas well, you know, I think if
you can tick those off, I meanthe computer and the systems now
can do the rest for you.
You know they can work outrepayments.
You're not having to work allthat out yourself.
You plug it into the computerand they do all that work.
But just being, you know, areal human is probably you know
key.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So tell us a little bit about your business.
So you know, maybe you know howbig is the business.
How many clients would you lookafter?
Yep, yep, ongoing.
Give me a bit of insight intoyour business.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, okay.
So Explore Finance, we sort ofstarted about two years ago, so
prior to that I was marketingfinance solo broker.
You know, being a broker canalso be a bit lonely.
So I teamed up with ourbusiness partner, luke Asigle,
and we sort of pushed ExploreFinance and kind of.
You know, he looks afteroperations and business growth
(17:34):
and he, you know, while I focuson the clients, someone's
working on the business to helpgrow the business We've got.
We had a book at that point.
We had a book for about, I'dlike to say about, $350 million,
I reckon, in business written,and within six months we
actually bought another book ofequal size, which was a scary
(17:55):
process.
But in saying that, thegentleman we bought it from is a
good operator.
He still runs a financialplanning business and we still
work a lot together.
So, yeah, it's worked outreally well, I think.
So, yeah, it was quite scary tosort of commit to something
like that.
Yeah, but it's been veryfruitful, which is good and yeah
(18:17):
.
So then, yeah, so I suppose nowwe've got to double the size in
terms of clients to look after,and I think in today's you know
the the environment, today,hiring has been a bit difficult,
I mean, you know all about itat.
Viva recruitment, vivarecruitment.
But um, yeah, it's kind of oneof those things where we've had
a few unfortunate hires.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
We're learning as we go, what we?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
look for what not to look for.
And yeah, a few of them youknow been a yeah kind of been on
the bum a few times where youyou put people on, you call in a
lot of work now because youwant to feed them work, and then
it doesn't work out.
Now I've needed to maintainthat work so big hours.
So, luke and I we've got twooffshores.
We have Alina out in Zimbabwe.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
So she's trained by another broker here in Melbourne
who does really well and, yeah,she trains them.
So they sort of come, they knowthe mortgage broker industry
and they do a lot of ourback-end data entry, collating
documentation, you know,liaising with the clients and
collecting everything.
Yeah, While we then focus on,you know, the solutions for the
(19:19):
clients.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I suppose, fantastic.
And now touching a little bitmore on you.
So you talked about, obviously,starting engineering, going
into accounting, and then, youknow, working as a mortgage
broker and being, you know,setting your own business up at
24.
Who?
And you talked about your dadsupporting you has your dad been
the biggest influence on you inyour career, or is there
someone that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Pretty much you know from a, from a father figure, to
, yeah, to, I suppose, just hiswork ethic.
You know, in life I suppose youdon't really sort of talk about
it all that much, but itobviously has reflected and has
helped pave the way for me.
So, yeah, I reckonsubconsciously somewhere there
(20:01):
as well, it's just sort of seethat work ethic, the big hours,
so you're not afraid, don't careabout work and doing all that.
So yeah, I'd say definitely he'splayed a big role in that and
you know as much as you knowfamily values, family you know,
values, traditions and that kindof stuff.
So yeah, so it's really set meup, I think yeah awesome and
(20:22):
outside of work.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
we've spoken about having three kids.
You're a big Richmond supporter.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I don't know anymore, but yeah, yeah well as the last
five years.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
You're up and about, maybe dropped off a little bit,
with lots of draft picks comingup.
I think you'll be prettyexcited over the next few years.
You've also lived out in Romseyand have a big farm with lots
of lamb.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, so we run a 180 head sheep've got about six
Angus at the moment.
So you know it keeps me busy.
So actually, from finance toshearing, you know last week
shearing the sheep.
So people always have a laughand like, oh, what are you doing
?
I'm shearing sheep, what areyou talking about?
So it's a good break up, Isuppose, from you know that
world to just out there.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I mean yeah, Getting out in fresh air is great, and
then you also set up and run achildcare business too.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, so yeah, we started up Little Stones.
Now We've been 14 monthsoperating out of Romsey.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
We've got another three sites coming up now.
So yeah, the idea is, you know,the wife does really good job,
has done a really good jobgetting that up and running.
Yeah, has done a really goodjob getting that up and running.
Now she's obviously tending tothe family, the little one and
we've hired a director to runRomsey at the moment, which is
doing really well.
You know it helps when you'vegot good families and good
people working for you as well.
So, yeah, we like to sort ofcelebrate those little wins.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think that's really important.
You say that because obviouslyyou know you run your own
mortgage.
Business've got a.
You've got a farm, you've gotyeah, it's about 150 you said
and then you've got.
You've got cows.
You've also running a childcare business that you're
growing yeah, so how do you justkeep?
You just keep going and pushingwhat's the what's the success
(22:01):
or what do you think the the keytraits to, to just having that
go-getter attitude?
Coffee.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
No, I don't know.
Just, I like to always keepbusy.
You know, I don't think there's.
I love, you know, I love what Ido.
I love business in general.
So you know, finance isobviously a big part of it, but
I love just business.
I love new stuff.
I like challenges.
Yeah, I always.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat I'm doing, I challenges
yeah, I've always.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat I'm doing, I'm always
trying to do something.
(22:28):
So the wife, yeah, she alwayssays to slow down, hit my dad,
you know, slow down, like.
You know, you've got plenty oftime, you're 34, so take your
time.
But yeah, not that I'm.
Yeah, it's like get going.
You know, I want to the idea isyou?
know.
Put the effort in now but atthe same time not lose Sign of
(22:48):
what's important in life, yeah,the kids time and all that you
know.
I'm hoping I'll be able to getoff a little bit early today and
go trick-or-treating with thekids tonight.
So just try to enjoy thoselittle things yeah so, yeah,
little things, the kids, youknow it, it's all everything to
them.
So yeah just trying to tickthose little boxes.
So you know I try to.
(23:09):
You know, obviously, romsey'sfrom where I operate, out of
Essendon.
He's about an hour drive, sobig drive in but you know I kind
of you know sort of wait aroundjust to see the kids before
they get up, because I know it'sa late night, you know.
So, yeah, little things likethat just help you keep going.
Oh, definitely it doesn'tmatter how bad of a day you get,
when you get home and thelittle ones are there, that's it
(23:29):
.
Phone's away and nothing elsematters.
So you know, just go hard onthat.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thanks for coming in.
I appreciate you and your time,and thanks for sharing insight
into your career and yoursuccess.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And also about being a mortgage broker and what that
entails.
And yeah, look forward tocatching up again soon.
Sounds good.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Thank you, thanks, mate.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And that's the wrap for this episode and for our
first season of Finance Friendswith Fabian.
It's been an incredible journeythus far, bringing you stories,
insights and advice from someof the most inspiring voices in
the financial services industry.
We want to take a moment tothank our listeners for tuning
in and supporting FinanceFriends with Fabian.
Your encouragement and feedbackhas meant the world to us and
(24:17):
we can't wait to bring you moreexciting people and stories and
conversations in 2025.
From all of us, from FinanceFriends with Fabian, have an
amazing, enjoyable holiday overthe break.
Thank you from myself, FabianRuggieri and Sienna Bartolomeo,
our producer.
See you in 2025.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational
and entertainment purposes only.
The personal opinions of thespeaker and guests do not
represent the view of any otherparty.
If this recording containsreference to financial products,
that reference does notconstitute advice nor
recommendations and may not berelied upon.
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