Brendon McCullum Exclusive: England, Ashes, IPL and hating the phrase ‘Bazball’ 👀

Brendon McCullum joins Stuart Broad and Jos Buttler for an unprecedented insight into his transformation of the England Test team.

The Kiwi coach explains his unique bond with England captain Ben Stokes, recalls their greatest triumphs and reveals why his coaching philosophy gives his players the best chance of winning back the Ashes this winter.

The former New Zealand captain and IPL star picks out the pivotal moments of his record-breaking career, revealing that he nearly quit the sport before deciding to double down on the attacking approach that has become his trademark.

Relaxed, honest, passionate and funny, this is McCullum as you’ve never heard him before.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Why don't you like the the dreaded B word?
I think there's a misconception that how we play is we swing the
bat as hard as we can. We go and play golf and have a
few beers. I find it slightly
disrespectful. Is there ever a frustration,
misunderstanding that you're notfussed about winning?
I know you want to win. I want to win.
I want to shoot 64 in the golf course.
I mean, what chance have I got? Get your pads on.

(00:22):
What? Let's just not call you a night
watch and let's call you something else.
Go then, Hawk. But you've had to.
I remember I strapped the first strap on.
And from the city end, Birmingham end, Jasper Bumrah.
I'll never think of this. We bet first I'm north of eight
in an IPO game. Sorry F gang here he came up to
me after the game so bad as you won't understand this like your

(00:45):
life a little bit the same end. You mentioned the ashes.
I think man for man, there's notmuch in them.
For us, the biggest thing is howwe handle the external pressure.
Our best chance is if we do justlive in the moment.
Each time, you know, play what'sin front of us, we do that.
We'll give ourselves every opportunity.
We're sure the best. Good luck.
Don't cock it. Up I'm Stuart Broad, he's Josh

(01:10):
Butler and today we have a very special guest on the pod,
England head coach Baz McCallum.Baz, thanks so much for your
time. Welcome to For the Love of
Cricket and yeah, we're really honoured to to have you in the
studio. Thanks guys.
Thanks, Hall. Baz, growing up in Dunedin with
your brother Nathan, can you talk to me like your first
feelings and when you fell in love with cricket, your first
memories of playing cricket? Yeah, pretty vivid actually.

(01:33):
My old man used to play first class cricket, so he played 76
first class games for Otago. I think he was, he only got 200.
So he must have been hell of a tourist.
And so we were always in and around cricket, both my brother
and I. And I remember he played for
Albion Cricket Club, which is actually quite a famous Cricket
Club down and down in the southern hemisphere has had a

(01:54):
lot of New Zealand players have come, come through it for such a
small sort of club and in South Dunedin.
And I remember going in what So we'd always be in around playing
on the sidelines watching the games.
But one of my favorite memories was after the game, we get to
come in, go into the dressing room with the team with with the
old man's team. And that's sitting around in the

(02:15):
dressing room was what was the most captivating element of
cricket for me. That sort of after a long day's
play at grassroots level of cricket.
But everyone was just sitting around having a beer at the end,
talking about the game or just having a general laugh.
And then you obviously roll intothe the club rooms after.
But that that for me was what grabbed me into the game.

(02:35):
And that was probably what kept me in the game for so long too,
because they were I loved being around the dressing room and and
the camaraderie which which she build and I love playing the
game too. But for me, it was more about
the people you meet and the relationships you that you
furnished. And that was where it started.
What's the? Journey from there though, to
get to to playing for news. Obviously growing up in New

(02:55):
Zealand as well, rugby, I'm sureeven saw you playing rugby not
too many years ago, right? But so would you be all sports,
playing everything the same thing with rugby, like in the
dressing rooms, that kind of love of, I suppose, hanging out
with the camaraderie of the team.
But growing up in New Zealand, there must be a big element of
the rugby side alongside the cricket.
Yeah, different. I think in New Zealand you're

(03:17):
encouraged to play all sports for as long as what you possibly
can, right. And rugby, you know, it is.
I mean, you're doing the hacker in the shower when you're 4
years of age. You know, that's what every
every Kiwi growing up does. You're wanting to be an all
black and or a black cap and, and you're encouraged to sort of
get out and play as much as you can, whether that's at school
or, or, or, you know, down in the backyard at home or with,

(03:40):
with your mates. But I think there's quite a big
difference with New Zealand as well.
There's like there's very littlecoaching goes on at in those
formative years. It's sort of it's more about
bringing guys together and go and play the sport just for the
sports sake rather than having individual private coaches as
such A and then prioritizing a aspecific sport.

(04:00):
You very much encourage to just go and do everything and I think
that's probably why there's quite a lot of good athletes
come out of New Zealand in particular, because you you have
that diverse range of of sporting experiences.
And yeah, I think that for me that certainly helped as well.
I'd love to playing rugby. I love playing cricket.

(04:21):
Obviously I should have played alot more golf when I was
younger. Making up for it now.
So I'm making up. But even like football too, like
you literally played everything that you possibly could and I
think that is such a good grounding for us.
Do you think playing all those different sports, I mean when I
look at you, a big characteristic of you just don't
seem to fear any sort of failurein in your sport.

(04:43):
Do you think playing all those different sports helped you
build that that mindset? Yeah, I think it left me for a
while too, though broadly, I think I started off pretty,
pretty fearless with my with cricket.
And then over time you start, you know, you have a little bit
of success and you think, Jesus,this is a good lifestyle, you
know, like a bit more of this. How do I hold on to it?

(05:04):
How do I sort of make sure that it never leaves me?
And I think that can sometimes lead to to doubt and it can lead
to list natural sort of instincts of how you go about
the play. And I was lucky enough to have
played long enough where I was able to the full cycle, was able
to regenerate, and I was able toget that that kind of freedom in

(05:25):
my game back. Do you think you had a cycle
then? Do you Like what period did you?
Because every time I played against you, there's a real
sense of this, like I'm just having a crack here.
I'm going for it. What, what years were you having
those sort of doubts? I think when I was a bit like
maybe 24 to 28, we sort of you're almost trying to do the
right thing. You, you know, you're trying to

(05:46):
eke out runs or you're trying tosort of work on your, your
weaknesses rather than furnishing your strengths.
And I think for me, I'd always felt like a bit of a battle.
And I remember just, and I were talking about it the other day,
these times that you get, it wasalmost like when you got a
performance, it was more relief than it was satisfaction.
And I sort of got to that stage in my career.

(06:07):
Surely there's got to be more than that.
Like, I know it's fun travellingthe world with a group of mates
and earned a few quid playing a game that you grew up loving,
but there's got to be more satisfaction out of it.
It wasn't until I kind of let goof that and just stop worrying
about what people thought, stop worrying about trying to be the
perfect type of player and stop worrying about constantly

(06:28):
working on my weaknesses and just started to just allow my
strengths to come out and roll out.
The fact that on your good days you're going to have good days
and on your bad days you're going to have bad days, but at
least there's consistency and approach and there's going to be
some enjoyment out of. It is that your own realisation
or did you need help from someone or to sort of get to
that point as well? Was there a coach or teammate

(06:48):
that sort of, or maybe your brother or your dad that pushes
you to say, or was it actually arealization you sort of sat on
your own that this is how I wantto live my career?
A little bit of both. I think probably I sort of
worked out, I wouldn't say I wasthe smartest bloke, but I'm
smart enough to work out that ifI keep playing like I was, I
wasn't going to be in the team much longer anyway.
So I needed to, you know, sort of find a way to to be as good

(07:12):
as I could to keep having the opportunity.
But also I remember Stephen Fleming, he's a great, great
mate of mine and obviously former New Zealand captain and
it's been around cricket for a long time.
And and when I took over the captaincy not long after that,
actually I was sort of going through the same kind of thought
process. And he actually said to me

(07:32):
called my bluff. He said we'll give up.
And I said, what do you mean give up?
He said we'll give up. If you're not enjoying it, just
give the game up. I said, I'm not sure if I'm
ready for these. So we'll go away right down the
pros and cons of carrying on playing or giving the game up
and it will become apparent. So I sort of went away and did
that, wrote down the pros, wrotedown the cons, realized that the
pros outweigh the cons to carry on playing, but very quickly

(07:55):
realized that I'm going to have to live with the cons if I'm if
I'm going to try and get the level of enjoyment and success
that I wanted out of my career at the back end.
So that was quite a pivotal moment and it's probably shaped
my coaching style as well, to behonest.
That freedom that you get when you, you, you strip it back to

(08:15):
the innocence of playing, talk about playing for the little boy
that fell in love with the game.And, and that's, that's where
you want to get to. And that's as a coach, that's
what you want to encourage is to, to try and strip away all of
that other stuff and the pressures that come with it,
knowing that they're there and you're just going to have to
deal with it. But get that satisfaction out of
the game that everyone's that everyone wanted when they first

(08:36):
got into the game. You certainly got that across to
when I was a player in your change room, that there was
something that you said that stuck with me was take yourself
back to when you were that kid opening the curtains on a
Saturday morning and just praying it wasn't raining.
And if you can do that wearing an England shirt or an
international shirt, you're going to be flying because
you've got that buzz, that joy and realizing you're playing for

(08:58):
your country in front of 30,000 people, but you're buzzing to be
there. So you definitely sort of
managed to get that across it. Yeah.
Clarity as a player, how much clarity or how quickly did you
get clarity as a leader? Because you're very successful
captain for New Zealand. Were you clear when you took
that job? This is exactly how I want to
change New Zealand cricket. Or did that evolve over time?
Because it was quite a tough first game in the Test stuff,

(09:20):
wasn't it? You get bowled out for 45 or
something. Yeah, well, I had that version
before that. But you don't always get what
you want, right? But sometimes you get what you
need. And I think we we got what we
need in there. I remember we we won the toss
and we batted and I was opening the batting and we were playing
South Africa at Cape Town. I was thinking, right, we're
going to make a real statement here and be real bullish and

(09:41):
we're going to bat 1st and take take the South African boys on
and we're bowling by lunch. Bowled out 45.
I've missed a straight one for Naughton.
I was and then I remember sitting back that night in the
in my room and I was going, we've got some work today.
And then there's a knock on the door as Mike Kissner was the
coach. Another knock on the door as
Mike Sandal, manager, another knock on the door, Bob Carter,

(10:03):
the assistant coach, and they came into my room.
We had a couple of beers and we go right, how do we, how do we
build this thing from, from the ground up?
Because in at the time in New Zealand cricket, we, we'd always
had decent periods, but we'd never had a prolonged period of
success. We're, we're fleeting in the way
we were about things. And if anything, we're, we're

(10:24):
underperforming for the talent we had.
Yet in our heads, we thought were a lot better than what we
were and we were probably not quite realistic in our view of,
of how we're performing. So we had to strip things back
and we went about making change and, and trying to become more
of a representation of the people of New Zealand.
And New Zealand. You, you're humble, you're hard

(10:45):
working. There's a #8 wire sort of
mentality. You, you're able to be
innovative and, and kind of adapt and, and you kind of feel
this with, with how you go aboutthings.
And so we wanted to be a representation of the New
Zealand people and we thought ifwe could do that, then they
would understand what we're trying to do on the cricket
field. And it all started that night

(11:07):
through being bowled out 45. And I think we got there towards
the end, you know, and then I realized that that stage that a
few years later that the team isready for a new direction as
well, that I could only take it so far.
And then came Williamson to himself.
They were going to take over as leaders and they took the team
to to the next level and hence, you know the success on the back
of those guys in the years since.

(11:30):
Would you say 2015 World Cup at home in Australia?
Big highlight as a leader. Yeah, it was good crack that.
I mean, there's there's not manybetter stages and playing it
and, you know, in front of your home fans and in such a big
tournament. I sort of, I knew we had a good
team, but for us it was going tobe how we handled the pressure

(11:52):
of a home World Cup. We knew that if we got on a bit
of a role, the country get riding behind US. 92 World Cup
was played in New Zealand, Australia.
That was a lot of the guys who were in that 2015 World Cup.
It was quite a you know, we wereonly 10-11 years of age when
when the 92 World Cup happened. But we saw what it did to the
country. It gave cricket a real shot in

(12:12):
the arm in the country and and sort of got a lot of fans into
it. We knew that we had the
opportunity to do the same and it was, it was, it was good fun.
We were, we trained next to nothing throughout that entire
World Cup because we'd done all the hard work.
For us it was about trying to enjoy the experience of the
World Cup, lap up everything youhad to offer and look forward to
the games with a fresh approach and.

(12:33):
It's funny, we trained every day.
Yeah, we did. We had to.
I remember we played you at Wellington and like I remember
thinking because you're trying to play on the psychology of the
game, because we were getting nailed, we weren't playing well.
We're under pressure from our press and you bowled first at
Wellington, started with like 4 slips or something, you know,

(12:54):
ODI and we thought, are we that bad?
You 4 slips well. That was interesting there
because we actually, we sat downnight for Tim, see how the Trent
bolt myself and I was like, jeez, these boys seem like
they're in the Bush. The English boys are copping it
from everywhere and they're likeinside the two down already.
And I was like oh that's interesting.
If we're two down, what sort of field would we have if they were
two for nothing? They said I would have 4 slips.

(13:15):
I was always start with it then and then we obviously did.
And then you guys reckon that was swinging everywhere?
I don't think it was swinging much at all.
It was it. Was not sure we were.
Watching it. That was fun.
That World Cup was was a great experience.
I reckon similar to 92. The the benefits of that World
Cup will will be seen in in the years to come from some of those

(13:37):
young kids getting into the gamewho they have choices, right?
They can play football, they canplay rugby, they can, but they
watch that and they're inspired to want to play cricket.
And that's ultimately that's what our job is to I think is to
keep trying to trying to bring about the next generation of
players to fall in love with cricket like we did.
How easy is it to get guys like Saudi and Bolt to buy into that?

(14:00):
Yeah, it's, it's hard to, it's sort of hard to explain that
little bit. I think like everyone starts
with a vision, right? Everyone has an idea and all,
all leaders have their own idea and their own visions of how
they want the team to run. I think it comes down to whether
you flinch or not. I had a very strong belief that
for us to be competitive againstthe best teams, then we could
never flinch because we man for man, we didn't have the same

(14:23):
level of skill as what other teams around the world had.
So for us it was important that we were a united and collective
side. It was important with a small
try to explain a little bit better, I guess a few.
If you've only got a small amount of resource, then you

(14:43):
need to be innovative, connectedand in front of the curve.
And then by the time the others catch up with the resource that
they've got, you have to be off on another plan on another
strategy. Otherwise you you're going to
get swallowed up. And I sort of we felt that
within our side, we needed to bedoing things differently.
We needed to be united and we need to be brave enough and, and

(15:04):
to make sure that even on bad days, we never flinched.
We stay true to to that and that'll give us our best chance
of being able to to succeed. And I think one of the big
things with that is loyalty and selection as well.
You're asking guys to to be brave and to play the game quite
an expensive manner. Then you need to keep going back

(15:26):
to them, you know, after a couple of failures, keep given
the opportunity to go again and and also picking on characters,
really important guys who are genuinely wanting to invest in
what you're trying to achieve. So, you know, it doesn't always
work. Sometimes you get it wrong, but
I think as long as you've got a plan and you've got conviction
and you've got that, that that belief in what you're trying to

(15:47):
achieve and give yourself a bit of chance.
Playing wise, look at some amazing moments in your career.
Triple century at Wellington. How does that compare to how you
finished? It was a record as a 54 ball
hundreds blazed ever against theAussies.
Remember watching that with a great smile on my face.
Can you look at those and pick one?
Or were they both just very different and amazing moments in

(16:09):
your career? Very different.
All of them, right Then I guess for me, I never, I never played
be consistent. I think that during those years
we were talking about before with that 24 to it's probably
30, to be honest, 24 to 30, I was trying to be a consistent
type of player. So until I let go of that and
didn't chase consistency, I realized that I was going to be

(16:30):
inconsistent. But for me, I wanted to chase
great moments. And that drug of feeling those
great moments was enough for me to to put the hard work in and
to go and handle the the failures as well.
And I, when I say those great moments, there's probably two or
three of them, but that was enough.
And I think that 300 and that the last Test match against

(16:53):
against Australia and, and maybeone or two other times where I
felt that, where you're in totalcontrol of the game, you feel
like the crowd has beaten to, toyour rhythm.
You know what the ball is going to do before he's let the ball
go. You can see you're reading his
body language and you know what the captain is trying to do
before anything sort of unfolds and the game slows down and

(17:15):
you're in total control of the game and like 3 or 4 times over
14 years or whatever it was. That's not a lot.
You're going to be patient. Did you preset your mindset like
I'm just going to go my last ever knocking Test cricket, I'm
having it, I'm going to charge, I'm going to go for them.
Was it a preset, the predetermined thing or you just
went with the flow? A.
Little bit of both. I was watching in the dress

(17:37):
service. I was been at 5 watching the
dressing room. We lost the task.
It was Green Hagley and planningin Australia and Kane Williams
since Baton 3 And I thought at the time before I met Joe, I
was, I was thinking Kane's got the best defensive technique in
world cricket and he's on 7 off 70 balls and he's getting hit on
the inside thighs, he's getting hit on the box and he's playing
a missing And I'm thinking if he's doing that trying to

(17:58):
defend, I've got no chance. So I was thinking, well, I've
got 11 opportunity to try and goout with a bang and and lay a
few, you know, land a few blows on on the on the Aussies here
and see if we can do something something in this this period.
So I thought I'll go ahead and try and play a few shots.
I've funnily enough, I tried to defend the first ball and it

(18:20):
went past my nose on the outsideedge.
I'm not having any more of this.Let's see.
The next ball was similar ball and I tried to slog it over cat
corner got a big top edge over the slips.
And, and if you look at that innings, it's full, it's full of
luck, but it's kind of like, is it like.
It's funny. It's funny how that happens all
right, when you. End that anyway.

(18:42):
So I know it was, it was cool. We didn't end up one in the
test, which was obviously disappointing, but it was it was
cool When you you get to experience that on your final,
you know, your final sort of walk to the creases is pretty
cool. You managed to Bush us up a
little bit in the England chain.I remember a Test team meeting
before the series and we're talking about, you know, you go
through plans for everyone. Kane.

(19:03):
Yeah, try and nick him off, havea gully because he can just fend
outside, but very strongly. What about Baz?
Worth having a fine third, Man'sgot a chance of getting caught
there early. What?
What about in the top of off? Well, what what his 1st 10
wickets was was made at Lord's court third man.
Same series, same series. I bought like length.

(19:24):
Ross Taylor at Headingley left it like she canned intuition
out. You came in next ball about
exactly the same ball. You charged me over for six,
over extra cover for six. I was thinking what is just what
is going on here? To about that great moments,
first IPL match hundred. That must have been an absolute
whirlwind and such a obviously prestigious tournament.

(19:46):
What's grown into but at that time to play in the first game
and score a massive 100, like what was that like?
And then what did that do to your life around cricket,
especially in India? Yeah, it's a good question
because it it literally changed my life, you know, and I don't
say that lightly, you know, coming from where I come from
and obviously playing for New Zealand, he was like, cricket is

(20:07):
very much secondary to to rugby.And I was like not established
at all really an international crew when I got picked up for
that first IPL and. I remember I was looking around
dressing room at Ricky Ponting and Serif Ganguly and all these
that amazing players and I, I sort of had a bit of that
imposter syndrome. I was like, she's how am I going

(20:30):
to open the batting when I've got all these gun players here?
And, and obviously you're earning good money and there's
big crowd and there's all this anticipation of what the IPO is
going to be. And I was in no form whatsoever.
Like I remember leading into thegame, I was just, I didn't know
where I was going to get a run from.
And I was like, does I was actually quite nervous and I

(20:51):
didn't tend to get too nervous with cricket.
But then like the build up and everything, the glitz and the
glamour of the IPL and I'm sitting here, Oh my God, this is
shitting myself. And and then go out.
We, we bat first. I'm nought off 8 in an IPL game,

(21:12):
nought off 8 in the T20 game. No, the pressure.
Oh, if I thought I was under pressure at the start when
you've, when you're not off 8 like you, as we know, well, you
wouldn't have never been there. But like, I didn't know which
end of the bat to hold. And then I was like, what am I
doing? Just stop trying so hard.
And then if it's not, if it's not mean to be, it's not mean to
be, but just just watch ball andtry and try and swing some

(21:36):
blows. And I again, I sort of went to
slog one, went over third man and kind of got underway from
there and then relaxed a bit. I don't know why, like you look
back on opportunities in your life.
Why do I get the chance to be the first one to open the
batting in the IPO? Why do I get, you know, why do I
get the luck that night to be able to make an impact?

(21:57):
Why do these things happen? And and you know, I genuinely
believe that did change my life because after that, Surya
Ganguly came up to me after the game and he sat next to me and
he's a big star, obviously. And he said, said, Baz, you
won't understand this, but your life will never be the same
again. And I didn't really know what he
meant. But from that moment on, it

(22:18):
literally changed everything. Every time you go to India now
or every time you play, play around the world, you kind of
had that that under your belt. And I think that you'd earned a
little bit of respect on the bigstage.
And when you come from as when you come from South Dunedin to
the bright lights of Bangalore in front of that many people and
you're able to do something likethat, yeah, you're pretty,

(22:39):
pretty grateful for the opportunity.
And you got a long affiliation with KKR and it probably started
your coaching journey, right? Was that your first job in
coaching with TKR? Yeah, it was TKR and KKR.
Yeah. So I had five years with KKR and
the IPL and then I've been unlucky with IPL teams.
Everyone says I'd I'd go jump onthe lines back for a 10 and

(23:00):
that's not true. That's not true.
It's just every team I play for keep getting thrown out of the
IPO. I had to keep going back in the
auction. But I had five years with them.
And then at the end of my playing career, thank you my saw
who's the the CEO at Kolkata rang me up and he said best
would you would you coach K car and T car?
He actually rang initially as mentor and then whoever they had

(23:21):
lined up pulled out and he rang up.
He said, would you coach him? I said, I don't know anything
about coaching. He said, oh, he said it's fine,
you'll know what to do. I said, well, if you're happy,
I'm happy. I'll give it a crack.
And that was the first. Did you always want to coach?
Or. Think about that.
Yeah, but I just wasn't sure how.
I always thought coaching was such a, such a long kind of

(23:43):
process to even get an opportunity.
Like you got to sit through all those coaching courses and you
got to and almost the flag gets coached out of here.
And so I was like, I wanted, I love the idea of coaching and
helping and trying to sort of stay in love with staying in and
around teams and and help build teams and build players.
But is it worth going through the the pain of having to go

(24:06):
through all of those long processes?
I was lucky that this sort of skipped a few of those process
and you jumped straight in. With the IPO, so you you're in
India, when Rob Key called you about the England job, did you
have his number? Were you like why has Rob Key
calling me or had you had comboswith your agent or whatever like
this job might be might be coming up?
No, not at all. So we're obviously everyone was

(24:28):
aware that England was struggling a little bit at the
time, picked up the phones up askeys here and I'd worked a
little bit with keys in the pastand commentary played against
him. I was and I knew that he'd taken
over as here we go. And then he just sort of asked,
asked what my interest and and the role would be in to be
honest, I didn't really, becauseI'm not I wasn't aspirational as

(24:52):
such A and I was happy doing what I was doing.
You know, I've had a playing career and I was doing a big
coaching at a radio show back inNew Zealand with Israel Day
Breakfast Radio and it's doing abit of a bit of commentary that.
So I had enough on the go a lot of time at home.
So it didn't really it wasn't really on my radar.
But then when you sort of start to think about it and I looked

(25:14):
at where where you guys were at in, in international cricket and
the talent and the resource thatthat that England possesses.
I started getting quite excited about the opportunity to work
with with you guys and see what you could actually do and kind
of looking at it as well. I felt that what what you guys
needed at the time, what the England side needed at the time,

(25:36):
my skills were kind of suited totrying to give guys confidence
and and give them a bit of encouragement to go and push the
boundaries of the of their games.
So it kind of just worked out well and I think.
At the time it was a big surprise you took the Red Bull
or wanted the Red Bull job. When your name was whispered it
was like, Oh yeah, white Bull coach, thanks for coming.
But then came as a bit of a shock to England.

(25:58):
I think that you wanted the Red Bull job.
Yeah, it's interesting because like Red Bulls for me always my
most enjoyable format, you know,like I think yes, that's that's
the purest form right now. That's the form where where
you're tested at its most. And I sort of looked at where
the white bull side was at with with Morgues and Joss and and

(26:21):
those boys leading that. And I sort of thinking you're in
that step where you're good, you're trying to take the team,
the team from good to great. And I didn't really, they're not
really my skills as such, like, you know, if you're deep in a
journey, you can do it. But to try and bring it to come
in at that stage and, and take ateam on that to try and fill the
gap from good to great. It's not necessarily my, my

(26:43):
skills. My skills are more about giving
A-Team a bit of soul and trying to give them some purpose and
give them some freedom and, and,and push them towards so bit of
bravery and, and courage out on the field.
And so that I felt the test teamwas more aligned to that.
Obviously it's better taken overa team that's struggling team.

(27:04):
One in 17 at the time. Yeah, but also Stokes he too.
He I didn't know Stokes he that well, but I kind of had a lot of
respect for his type of character and and knew that
there was someone like that taking over a team which is sort
of struggling and wanting to pivot into a new a new stuff.

(27:25):
You know he was going to get that role.
Or were you involved in appointing him?
No, no, he was appointed already, was he?
Yeah, yeah. So then I was sort of like,
well, that, that intrigues me aswell.
Similar interests. Similar.
Interests. When broadly talked about
Stokes, he's sort of first net as captain and he's sort of
worded broadly up. He's going to try and smack him

(27:46):
and stuff. Was that say like what did you
find when you arrived and was that something you guys had
talked about as a plan that you could show this off that and he
was going to be the guy to do that or did he go off and do
that and take you by surprise aswell?
He definitely took me by surprise because we didn't talk
about that at all. And to be honest, that we've,
and broadly, I'm sure you'll agree, we never really talk

(28:07):
about scoring rates or like anything.
It's about, it's about freeing yourself up from the external
pressures of, of what people think of us or, you know, the
pressure we put on ourselves and, and the kind of fast
scoring and that stuff just unfolded.
I think Stokes, he, he clearly wanted to send a message that
that we are going to play with more, more freedom.

(28:31):
Poor old Brody was the one that had to cop it and sit there and
say nothing. You really just want to bounce.
Him. I was desperate to bounce him
but that disappeared as well, tobe fair.
But yeah, it was quite amazing that within a very short space
of time, how quickly that that freedom and that sense of
enjoyment in the game was able to was able to establish itself

(28:53):
on that test side. Has that always been your?
Because I remember your first team talk.
We all met at in the change roomat Lourdes.
And I've played in you'd play inchange rooms where the coach has
a white board and everything's like laid out.
It's quite a PowerPoint presentation or whatever how the
team want to play and you'd everyone's just putting their
boots on. You sort of said that's just two
minutes. You laid out how you viewed it.

(29:13):
I remember clearly you said about Lookout at Lords.
This place is going to be full. You know, they've got a choice
of going wherever they want to go, theatre, football, they're
going to come and watch you go and entertain them.
Go and give them a talking pointin the day, make them smile, let
them go to the pub and talk about what brilliant day they've
had. You can do that by getting 18

(29:34):
off 4 balls, or you can do that by getting 18.
It doesn't matter. And then I could tell that you
hadn't had a long meeting with Stokes because you sort of just
went Stokes anything. And he sort of went, yeah, yeah.
I just want to play with freedom.
You know, it was so natural and authentic that then it was all
right, get your boots on, boys. Let's go.
And I think that gave a lot of energy because definitely team

(29:57):
meetings that can drag a bit of energy out of you as a player,
can't they? It's like you sit in a meeting
room in a hot Hilton somewhere for 40 minutes and walk out.
Not really sure what you've gained from it but you've always
been just little messages at times and move on.
Yeah, I hope I sort of do some of my catch away from the

(30:19):
cricket grounds, if you know what I mean.
Like everyone knows we love playing golf and getting out and
doing things, but that's also a great opportunity.
Like whether it's playing golf, having a beer in the bar, go for
dinner, whatever it is, jumping in a car with someone on the way
to to wherever we're going, our next destination.
To me, there are opportunities like that.
There are opportunities where you're away from the heat of the

(30:39):
battle of a game and a dressing room.
There are the opportunities where you build the
relationships and you reinforce messaging and you're and you're
able to give confidence without sometimes, sometimes when you're
talking at a Creek ground, guys get the steer on right, like
because they want to listen and they want to be engaged, but the
focused on because it's like it's now it's real.

(31:02):
We're going to have to go out onthat field shortly.
So it can be quite hard sometimes to if you don't have a
relationship with people and youdon't know how to talk to them
in those moments or what language to use or where to get
them, it can be quite hard to toactually get through.
So I like to use those other sort of opportunities as as ways
to build relationships and, and hopefully then when the heat of

(31:26):
the battle is on and you need toget through to a player, yeah,
you've got that. You've got that opportunity from
what you've done previous. I found a really powerful moment
as Trent Bridge, your second Test in charge.
We needed like 260 maybe 2:30 inon the final day and we're in a
little bit of trouble. And at T, folksy went and folks

(31:46):
went if we lose another wicket, are we going for the draw?
We shutting up shot to you and you sort of call you called
everyone into the the change room.
Didn't you like come boys, just come around very quickly, very
quickly. Look, just so we're clear and
this was almost the first time I'd heard you mention about a
style of like mindset of what we're going to do.
So I don't believe in drawers. I'm not interested in the draw.

(32:07):
People haven't come and filled Trent Bridge this afternoon to
watch us block the ball and try and get a draw.
We're going for the win at all costs.
Even up to you Jimmy. If you come at 11 trying to
every ball for four. We're going for this and we're
going to go and win it. And I can't remember the exact
words, but it was a long those lines and everyone just everyone
like sort of grew in the changing room.
It wasn't, you're right. At no stage in your coaching

(32:29):
sort of career with England whenI was there did you go, I want
to score at 5 and over. I want you to, you know, we're
always going to play that way. But it was that we're going for
the win. That's our only mindset.
And go and do it your way, boys.And then authentically Johnny
ducks the first ball after tea Stokes, he goes down, she goes,
what you doing? So I just want to have a look.
You've heard of it 6 And then bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

(32:52):
And you know, that's just just like an incredible mindset for
the team to go. And that felt quite a big
moment. Do you think with the mentality
of the group? Yeah, I think it was.
Well, first of all, Stokes, he actually came to me and he said
bears. I think now is the time because
him and I had started to build that relationship quickly in the
week or so. We spent a lot of time together

(33:14):
and sort of bouncing approaches off each other.
And we're both very aligned around what we felt were the,
the areas that we could improve and, and where areas of strength
were and what the task at hand and the direction we wanted the
team to go. So it was him that came to me
and he said, Baz, I think now's the time for, for that message

(33:36):
as I sound. So then and I remember we sort
of when we did come in, I lookedat the scoreboard and said we
need 160 here in the final session.
We've got 5 wickets in hand. Like this is going to be a
thriller, you know, or it could be a fizzer.
And it's sort of like if we evenif we lose this game, if that's

(33:57):
our approach, then it will open up so many opportunities and
possibilities for us moving forward.
If we, if we don't flinch, if weflinch and start trying to
because we're one nil up in the series, right?
If we flinch and we all of a sudden adjust or, or go off this
what we're trying to achieve in pursuit of safety, then we've

(34:20):
got no chance. And so, you know, guys will see
through that and, and guys will start looking after themselves
and still guys will start withdrawing and start worrying
about their own scores and startworrying about what people say.
And, and very quickly you can, you can lose everything that you
lose the dressing room, you can lose the respect of people
within that. And to me you are going to lose

(34:41):
games of cricket, but if you've got the style and you've got
that conviction and what you tryand do, then you give yourself
the best chance. And so that was why we we went
down that route and the fact we've got some really good
players in this country. So it's like we we can do those
things. You know we can chase 160 in the
last session on Day 5 with five wickets at hand and and succeed

(35:03):
and it was quite pivotal moment for us.
As I said, is there ever a frustration with people saying
misunderstanding that you're notfussed about winning?
Because a lot of the stuff you talk about is process driven,
not fearing failure, not not being worried about winning or
losing. And sometimes I feel like people
can misunderstand that, as if you don't, you're not trying

(35:24):
your hardest or caring about theresult.
Did you ever get frustrated withthat or feel like you need to
explain that? Or as a international player,
you just know that it's a given that they want to win.
Yes, it's a given that you want to win.
I think if you take that off thetable and then you just you
focus on like what it is you're trying to achieve, you're

(35:46):
focusing on the processes, you're trying to free guys up,
you're trying to the psychology of the game to allow your talent
to come out. And that's ultimately what,
well, what our job is as coachesis to allow the talent you guys
at Bournemouth and the talent that guys have worked hard, hard
on throughout their entire livesto be able to reach the goals
and the ambitions that they've got when they started playing

(36:08):
the game. And and you can't do that if
you're bound by this, this tension and this sort of
negativity or you know, so for us and for me, it's it's about
like, I know you want to win. Like I want to win.
I know you want to win. I know you want to win.
Like it's not about that. It's because the opposition

(36:29):
wants to win too, right? So it's not just a matter of
wanting to win means and the more you want to win means that
you win more. That's not how it works, right?
I want to shoot 64 in the golf course.
I mean, what chance have I got? Just because I say it and I keep
saying it doesn't mean it's going to happen.
So for me it's so how, how do wego about that?
I know that everyone that's in the dressing room that you play

(36:49):
with is desperate to perform andis desperate to win.
They want to, they want people to walk away being proud of the
teams that the the team that they're playing for.
But you need more on that, need more substance than that and
need to focus on the processes to try and get to where you want
to get to. 1 of the big things when we took over with England
is I felt that that we're very blessed situation with cricket

(37:12):
in in this country. I remember I walked into when I
was captain in New Zealand, I walked into a press conference,
there was 3 journalists there. So people go oh that's good.
You know, they have talked to me.
No, that's not good because it means there's not much of A
platform to be able to sell the game to get more people into the
game. I walked into the first press
conference for for England as coach.

(37:34):
There was 65 people in there. I was like this is pretty cool.
You know, it's not daunting, that's cool.
Like what a great opportunity and then you turn on the TV and,
and every ground's full. You've got the 100, you've got
cricket is a big deal in this country.
And what a great opportunity, what a great platform to be able
to do what you want to do. If you can handle the external

(37:56):
pressure of having to having to go out and performing.
And that was one of the things that we addressed.
So how do we, how do we handle that that noise effectively so
that it doesn't paralyze their ability to play the game and to
succeed how we want to succeed? I won't mention the the phrase
that your coaching style has been sort of nicknamed in
England because I know your yourfeelings on that particular

(38:18):
phrase. But do you think that's almost a
positive that your coaching style is has been given a name
and the fact that it is different and unique?
And why don't you like the the dreaded B word?
Well, I say for stars like we, we, we never have that kind of

(38:39):
mindset about ourselves as we'renot rigid in how we go about
things, right? We're, I think people, I think
there's a misconception that howwe play is we swing the bat as
hard as we can. We take, we try and take wickets
and we go and play golf and havea few beers.
It's a psych. It's, I find it slightly
disrespectful to all of you guysand to all of the people that

(39:00):
are involved in the set up who work so hard and have such clear
determination of wanting to succeed to have it so simply
sort of. Categorized.
Almost. Categorized like For us, it's a
matter of trying to create an environment which allows you to
handle the pressures of it of international cricket, but not

(39:21):
be. Understand the the size of the
task, but not be not be restricted in your ability to go
out and play on the field. I think you know you want your
talent to come out. I hate seeing talent stymied.
And so for us, having a certain style or a belief in how we want
to play gives us our best chanceto, to be able to succeed.

(39:44):
And it's, it's amazing that it'salmost like we've come up with a
team or we even come up with a team.
I mean, I've never heard it mentioned in the changing much
and maybe a coach said it once as a joke and that was like the
last time it really got made. It wasn't just wasn't a
conversation in the change of I think everyone understood that.
It was just a mindset. It was a mindset of, of how you

(40:06):
want to go about about your business.
I think a saying I got from you that you liked was that sort of
run towards the danger. It's a really powerful line
because it means that if you're ever doubting yourself or, or
the game's on the line or you'reunder pressure, just run at it
as hard as you can. And that suited my mindset as a
player. And I think every player would
have picked out different thingsfrom your mindset or philosophy

(40:30):
that sort of rounds up in in a coaching style.
But I think people, particularlyAustralians get the the B ball
thing wrong because they think it's like this mysterious sort
of coaching style where we try and slog sixes.
Well, it's just a mindset of playing positively, positively
in your style, trying to get ridof the fear of failure because
that hampers you in international cricket and

(40:54):
playing in a way that is going to entertain.
But of course the result matters.
No one in you know, you should sit and England change room when
you've lost. It's it's no one's there going
to. That was great, wasn't it?
That was brilliant. Loved that.
You know, it's it hurts, but it's no good as a player just
talking about how much it hurts.You've got to find a way to to
get better and move and move forward.
So, yeah, I think it's now I'm on the outside of the change

(41:17):
room. It's something that's talked
about on the outside of the change room and not on the
inside for sure. Another name that was coined
during your tenure together was the Nighthawk.
Can you tell us about that? Devastatingly, my opinion, so I
don't know where it came from and that that we.
Came up with. Things well, that'll be that'll
be my question for you in, in 2 minutes when I've explained it.

(41:39):
So my memories of it right. So we're at Trent Bridge in
Baz's second game and I don't like batting.
You know, my when the team's batting, I love lads getting
stuck in. I can go and have a cup of tea,
watch it and sort of dread everytime a wicket falls that I'm
getting nearer to batting. So we're going great.
Ruti's 100 not out. Poppy's 100 not out.
At Trent Bridge, my home ground.I thought this is the perfect

(42:02):
time to go make a cup of tea. I know where the chocolate
biscuits are. I'm going to sneak off into a
corner and just watch 2 lads hitboundaries on a beautiful
surface. So get up there, just brew my
tea. Just about to have a little dunk
of me chocolate digestive and the door flings open so I sort
of look over. Baz has come and found me.
Hi everybody. Yeah, good mate.
We're like 300 for two or something.

(42:24):
Get your pads on. What?
What do you mean? I'm back about 10 again.
Get your pads on. Why?
Well, just look out there now. You've got 20,000 people.
It's just a bit quiet. You know, we're going nicely,
but it's just a little bit quiet.
I want them to just Rev up a little bit in the day.
It's like 3:00 in the afternoon.So get your pads on.

(42:47):
If you get in, try and get your first ball for four or six and
then get out if you want, or just try and keep it in more
boundaries. So I'm proper confused now what
was going on there? I'm like 36 years old.
There's nothing. So I sort of slowly walked down
the stairs like strap the pads on.
Suddenly I'm now fully kitted upin my pads ahead of Johnny bed.
So Ben Stokes, they're all like taking the pads off.

(43:09):
I'm sat there waiting to bat with the with the sole goal of
to walk out onto my home ground and everyone sort of go, what's
what's going on here? Like what, what's happening?
And they'd have a cheer and thenfor me to try and my mindset
was, OK, I'm going to try and get this first of all for six.
So I'd swing as hard as I can and they'd all have a bit of a a
cheer and away we go. Fortunately, we got to the

(43:31):
second new ball with the two guys still batting and I sort of
was trying to make contact with Bazzar.
They put me going to face Trent Bolt with the new ball and said
Bazzar says, like, do you know what?
We'll we'll go back to the original plan now, take them
off. So didn't didn't go in and then
we get to Edgbaston against India and there's about 40
minutes left of the day's play and we need 370 odd chasing and

(43:56):
I'm just bold for felt like dayslike knackered.
So I'm in the chat in the physioroom with Mark Wood just taking
my strapping off. I just hear this door fling
open. It's like, I like to think the
physio room is just for bowlers,you know, like real quiet area.
No, Baz, get your pads on it. What do you mean is?
I've got a bit of a theory. You know, everyone will expect a

(44:19):
night. Watch them to go in now and
block it because we need runs, we need to chase the runs.
So if you go in now, they'll put5 slips in short leg, come at
you, try and get a quick 30, getus moving and take the runs
down. So obviously I'm not going to
say no, am I? But I'm like devastated.
All right, Yeah, yeah, All right.
Sound OK. But I did say to you, I think I
said, look, man, I can't go in there with everyone thinking I'm

(44:41):
a night watchman. Get caught deep square leg or
log on. And then Ruthie goes out and
Nicks what? And you know, I'll be crucified
and you just said, well, that iswhat it is really.
But let's just not call you a night watch.
Let's call you something else within the changing room.
And then suddenly I'm supposed to get my pads on and they're
chewing the fact that Mark Wood about what we could call it call
this thing Woody goes, Oh, you said well, what attacks it's

(45:04):
prey at night, didn't you? Because it's like, you know,
late in the day go and score theruns, go and attack the bowlers
and Woody went like a hawk or something.
And you just went well, Nighthawk and then you're gone
in hawk. But you've had to.
I remember I literally I think like someone was bowling.
I strap the first strap on. It was like and from the city

(45:24):
end, Birmingham end, Jasper Bumrah.
So that's where that's where theNighthawk came from in my mind.
And then from that, every singlemorning you'd I'd walk in change
of it and you'd go, you're right, Hawk.
It would be like morning Hawk and you just knew me as Hawk
ever since. Yeah, to the point you had
T-shirt made, didn't you? I didn't realise.

(45:48):
I didn't realise you didn't likeit.
I thought you'd love the effect.That was play acting.
That was because I knew that your your.
Mind, maybe I didn't know you aswell.
No, I mean, I grew to love it because I'd walk off the field.
It was bizarre. Like we'd bowl A-Team out and
you're walking off as a team forthe 10 minute interval.
And you're running off to get your pants on.
The lads would be like, are we Hawking, are we Hawking?

(46:08):
What's happening there? Everyone's getting buzzing.
The fact that I'm going to go and face Robarda and Nokia with
a brand new ball. I tell you when it worked really
well though, in New Zealand during the pink ball Test,
because I think what what ended up happening is you just embrace
the fact you're out there to create carnage, right?
Yeah, Yeah. So you're trying to just adjust
the entire rhythm and flow of, you know, the last 20 minutes

(46:29):
before the stumps, which is normally survival mode.
It's like we're just going to get them completely frazzled by
the Hawks. You know, he's going to walk
down the wicket to the Trent Bolt with the brand new ball.
He's going to try and pull anything that's remotely short,
he's going to run around, sort of run between wickets and
chaotic fashion, yeah. And it's night as well because

(46:49):
it's the day night game. It's pitch black out there.
Actually, Tim Selfie, he was newball, pink ball swinging around
and I was he was bowling like inswingers and I was trying to
drive him through the offside, but I'd miss in it, miss leg
stump like because I was backingaway that but and he said I know
to me quite well, but he just helooked to me.
I got to nine straight non strikes.
Then he just goes, I've got no idea where to bowl it.

(47:10):
No idea because if I got the stumps, you hit it.
If I you miss it if I bowl and I'm scared if I bowl a short
one, it's quite small that you're just going to lamp it for
six. And that was quite nice.
And the fact that he's saying ina mighty way, although it was
the heat of the battle, but he was just like it frazzled him a
bit like what do I do here? I don't know what to.
Do get the desired effect? Yeah.

(47:32):
Blind squirrels. But yeah, he gave me a little
bit of fun and maybe, yeah, joy to the changing room for for the
whole. But actually I only I only sort
of I got went into operation once or twice.
I have a pads. On into operation.
I have a pads on loads but they're loads but even.
That I reckon like that, that's just the fun of that because

(47:54):
normally by those last 30-40 minutes, whatever, they can be
agonising, right? Like, you're literally trying to
find the finish line for the days so that you can jewel again
the next day. But even just you sitting around
with your pads on it created a softening of the definitely of
the dressing room, but it made it a lot more enjoyable to be.
It's a bit like having music on in the change room, right?
I remember that first Test matchat Lord's against New Zealand

(48:19):
when we bowled him out for nothing.
And then we started getting bowled out for nothing and there
was chat, there was music on in the dressing room, But then the
music got turned off. And I was like, I remember
saying at the end of the day, I was like, lads, next time that
happens because it's going to happen.
There's going to be times where opposition teams are able to,
you know, put you under pressureand you lose a few wickets.
So next time that happens, don'tturn the music off, turn the

(48:40):
music up because you're less like that.
That calmness within a dressing room and that, well, that that's
how you deal with adversity, right?
And you try and create that atmosphere and the environment.
And then I think guys are able to walk out there with less
pressure on their shoulders. And you played a big part in
that. I used to sit next to Poppy
right at batting 3 and he'd, we'd get off and he'd sit, sit

(49:01):
down he goes. He'd be like me or you like,
just joking. What can you mate?
Just bold. I mean you've had some great
moments as as England coach, like some brilliant Test matches
around Royal Pindy for example. So many records broken.
Can you picture 1 moment as a highlight or is that too too

(49:22):
big? Or ask?
Your face after we decided we'regoing to enforce the follow on
and Wellington was quite good fun.
I enjoyed that we. Got thousands with the bat in
the first things but hold me outcheaply.
And it wasn't that cheap. That was a problem.
Still hard work. And in stocks he comes, comes to

(49:44):
me and says what do you want to do?
So some force to follow on and brought his stuff.
Not a big fan to follow on. They prove right.
Actually, we were. Losing cricket Worst rule in
cricket you bowl, you bowl a teammate, you bowl at the best
batters, get 10 wickets you've done a brilliant job there
Bowlers now go and bowl at theirbest batters again when you're.
Playing. So we end up losing the TC.

(50:05):
You might have been, you might have been right, But look at
this, there's some really, I mean, I've been in the job
coming up three years or whatever and we've achieved some
really cool things. And in that time, it's hard to
put a, it's hard to put a sort of like pick one out out of out

(50:27):
of all I think of in Pakistan when guys were sick, like they
and we're able to go out there and play the way we did and to
win that series 3 nil to that game at Edgebaston against
India, the series against it's been some really cool, cool
times. Even South Africa, we lost the
first Test against South Africa at Lords and then come back from

(50:50):
that. And when 2/1 for me, it's sort
of like the results of the results see some fiercely
competitors. We talked about a love winning.
But for me, it's more the growthof guys.
It's the understanding of of what this team's trying to
achieve. That's not just some test
create, it's from whipe or two, but to see guys actually just

(51:13):
relax a little bit. They walk a bit taller, but they
relax their shoulders and they go out there and they they
actually embrace the the precious situations.
That's the most satisfying aspect for a coach and and to
see teams connect and unite. That's that's what you're trying
to achieve, right. And so I know we've got some
big, big jobs coming up down, down the southern hemisphere

(51:33):
over over the next few months. But I feel like we've, you know,
and then obviously the World Cupover in, in India and, and Sri
Lanka as well. But I think we give ourselves
the best chance if we stay as united as what we possibly can
and we can handle the pressures of what, what unfolds.
And I feel like we've built thatover the last three years and I

(51:54):
feel like we're in a good spot. You mentioned the Ashes, what
does that mean to you as a as a Kiwi?
Well, even in New Zealand, we grow up watching the Ashes too.
We're envious of of the opportunity to see such big
series and to be involved in such big series.
So I feel feel really humbled tobe able to be in a situation

(52:15):
where you're actually a part of a series like that when you're
not born in these Australia or England.
So but we know how big it is we've we follow it and and we
always want England to win as well.
So we just wait that quite well.What do you see the challenges
or is it basically all the stuffthat you've just talked about?
Just staying true to that, having the conviction.

(52:36):
And like I said, sure people have in your tenure as coach, it
seems to be for English about Ashes Cricket.
And so I'm sure you've had an eye on it for a little while to
get to this point where you've got your side to go and, and
challenge and, and try and win it there.
Yeah, well, I think I probably must.
I've left out that coming back from the ashes, being 2 nil down

(52:59):
in the Ashes last time, coming back and to to levelling up at 2
all and being an unbelievable series to be a part of for me.
I feel like there's two good teams going to go at it.
And I remember thinking back at that Ashes, I wanted to go
around again, you know, it was like how good this is.
This is this is Elmer horse racing, man, this is Group 1

(53:19):
racing. You know, well, this is the top
of the top, the best against thebest and the the Duke and it out
on the biggest stage and the brightest lights in front of the
the the big crowds and people all around the world.
And I'm excited about that for us, because there will be a test
of of what we've done and where we've come from and and where we
sit as a side. And I know how how you get

(53:41):
judged on it. And I know, I know what, you
know, what we want to achieve out of it, but it'll be how we
handle the external pressures and the spotlight when we get
down there. But I feel like we've, I feel
like we've insulated ourselves abit from that through the work
that we've done over the last couple of years.
And the personalities we've got within the team too, is there's

(54:03):
a lot of very level people in that team.
And I also think the most recentseries against India should hold
us in good stead too because that was group racing as well
do. You think it's more of a
mentality than going to Australia, right?
You know, we, we in the press will often talk about do we have
the bowlers, the attributes, thespinners, the runs, but actually
think it's insulating. So it's the psychology, it's the

(54:24):
the being tight as a group that that gets you a bit further
there. Yeah, I think so.
I mean, you're you're probably better to to be able to answer
that question because I haven't been in a scenario where you've
you've dealt with it and down Australia personally.
But I feel like that was one of the things that we wanted to
make sure we and we gave ourselves every chance to be

(54:46):
able to handle. I think man for man, there's not
much in it between the two sides.
I think, you know, there'll be sometimes where one team gets a
bit of luck and the other team doesn't.
And that could be deciding factor in in the series.
But I think for us, the biggest thing is how we handle the
external pressure, how connected, how united can we

(55:07):
stay regardless of the outcome in in games to be able to make
sure we make the best possible decisions in the in the highest
pressure situations and allow our talent to come out.
We do that. We'll give ourselves every
opportunity. How how pre planned is your your
mindset in that series? We've made mistakes before in
the past where we think, OK, we'll we won't play a spinner

(55:30):
here, we'll save a seamer for there.
We'll make sure that bowlers ready for the 4th test.
You just, I get the sense your mindset is I'm just going to
look at Perth, I'm just going tolook at Friday the 21st November
or whatever it is and we'll hit that first hour with our lot and
see where we get to. Yeah, because I like that
phrase, you know, sort of plan as if you live forever but live

(55:51):
as if you die tomorrow. And I think that's that's
important when you're you're a coach.
I think when you're trying to build, build teams, you've got
to have an element of planning. And I think we've done that, you
know, along with Kizy and Rob Key and Luke Wright and Stokes
in and all the those who help usaround English cricket.
I think we've we've been able toplan a little bit over the last

(56:14):
couple of years by introducing. We knew that we needed a battery
of fast bowlers to hit down there with.
We knew that we need a settle batting on it.
We knew that we need a a Wick keeper batter that was had the
ability to take the game away from the opposition.
We knew that we, we're going to need a spinner that's got, that
generates bounce, just like Nathan Lyon has.

(56:35):
So we, we've planned all of thatstuff.
How we, how it comes out in the moment, we'll, we'll find out.
But our, our best chance is if we do just just live in the
moment each time, you know, playwhat's in front of us, just make
sure that we're, we're present and, and we give ourselves the
best chance. And that that includes taking

(56:57):
things test by Test match. It's exciting.
It's yeah, it's yeah. I think I've.
Well, we'll wish you the best for it and we're excited to see
it. But yeah, it seems, I know it's
as Ash's series. As an England fan, it's as good
a chance, I think as England have ever had.
So we're sure the best. Good luck.

(57:18):
Don't cock it up. Yeah, that's it for this week.
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