July 16, 2025 • 48 mins
Broady and Jos are joined by IPL-winning analyst Freddie Wilde to discuss how data has transformed modern cricket.
Freddie tells us how his data insights helped a Royal Challengers Bangalore team featuring Virat Kohli and Krunal Pandya break their IPL duck.
Broady recalls how an intervention from the data analyst at Nottinghamshire transformed his bowling and Jos explains how his own data-lead methods have turbo-charged his batting.
We hear about the influence of “mega-nerds” in data science and AI in modern cricket.
Plus, Freddie targets a “Three-peat” with the Oval Invincibles in the 2025 Hundred.
Ask Broady and Jos a question: https://qHarKG.short.gy/askFTLOC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You've helped the Oval Invincible men go back-to-back,
famously at Laws last year, Patrick. 3 peat.
Hopefully. Data without a doubt played two
massive roles in my career. Our data back in the early 2000s
was early doors. Hit the new ball into the river,
get it wet. And they had to.
Bowl the wet for. The overs first ChatGPT for
(00:21):
cricket. Pretty much so.
It just sort of gave another live decision making tool.
What would you like me to call that on commentary?
Go on, big bootly air version ofmatch ups, can we call it?
I'm Stuart Broad. He's Josh Butler.
A bit of a sweaty Josh Butler. What was your journey in here?
(00:42):
I'm a line biker, so I'm trainedto Paddington.
Then I jump on the bike for a little half an hour jaunt down
here. It's electric, why are you
sweating? I work hard actually.
There's we have a rat race actually it's quite competitive
out there on the on the bike, but get my elbows out, get my
helmet on and get down here. So what are we up to today?
Yes, a big one, Jose. This special episode is brought
to you by our friends at Sage, the Official Insights Partner of
(01:05):
the 100. Using data and insights to bring
you closer to the biggest decisions in cricket.
To help your small business growwith AI tools like Sage Copilot,
visit sage.com. No, really looking forward to
this episode. We are joined by Freddie Wilde,
IPL winner with the RCB 100 winner with The Oval.
What went wrong for us, Fred, when I was captain and you were
working with England, but no, great to have you with us.
(01:28):
We're going to do a bit of a deep dive on analysis and how
that plays a huge part in the game broadly.
You've played for a long time, you obviously finished now, but
what sort of changes did you notice in analysis and how much
of it there was or how it's grown in the last few years?
Huge amount when I first startedit was very much looking at
opposition players and and little stats that could help
(01:50):
you. That was it really.
And the analysts would just be in the changing room plotting
the the games and, and studying that way.
And to when I finished the data available, we all had apps on a
phone that you could click on any player in the world and and
figure out technical weaknesses and through stats, the
information just grew. But I think how it's grown in
the modern game to actually picking sides, picking who to
(02:13):
spend money on an auction is pretty incredible, really.
And data, I was a bit of a data geek, to be honest.
I loved getting all the information and filter what I
needed out of it. I know some players get a bit
scared by data, don't they? But yeah, I think it's a great
thing for, for the game and something that other sports have
had for a long period of time, hasn't it?
Maybe cricket we're a bit slow, but I think it plays a a crucial
(02:35):
role. Where does it start for you,
Fred? Let's say example with RCB,
you've just come from winning that tournament, so preparing
for an auction or sort of that, what sort of role is given to
you as the analyst and you know,how do you take a lead from the
coach or captain and those kind of things?
Yeah, well, that's where it starts.
The retentions, the auction is is is the beginning.
That's when you're compiling your squad and it goes all the
(02:57):
way through, I guess right up tomatch day when you're you're
doing preparation for the game itself.
And you're right to mention the coach.
I think that the the nature of work that you do as an analyst
is massively influenced, I thinkby the coach that you've got.
There'll be some coaches, as youguys know, like you mentioned
players, some guys like it, someguys don't.
Some coaches also will be well into it and some won't be so
much into it. And I think the extent to which
(03:17):
they want you to be getting stuck into the numbers will
dictate how much work. You just feel like in any walk
of life, if your boss says you want, we want you to do this,
then you go away and do it. And with RCB, MO Baubat and Andy
Flower are both pretty data-driven.
So we, we, I was involved right from the get go there in terms
of firstly, you start with retentions, who we're going to
retain. And that's a massive moment.
(03:38):
Really. I think people think that it
starts at the auction, but actually your whole auction plan
will be based on the 345 retentions that you make at that
stage. And that's where you really
begin to stop going down a certain path.
So you spend time thinking aboutwho you're going to retain, and
then that leads into auction planning, which, yeah, you can
get very detailed and you build the squad from there.
So a coach would come to you andgo I need a middle order batter,
(04:00):
left arm spinner for my retentions.
Who's lining up the best stats wise or do you go through all
the data and go do you know whatthis player is really
undervalued. We could maybe retain at a
better price. Yeah, it's a a bit of both
really. Like there'll be there'll be
times where I think, I think with with the retention,
sometimes it's it's quite obvious who you might retain.
Like let's use RCB, we're going to retain Vera.
OK, that's one. That's just not necessarily
(04:21):
going to be much of A debate. But there might be other players
there who are sort of you, you understand that they've done
well in your last few seasons, but there might be a couple.
Maybe you're debating, for example, RCB, we had Mohammed
Siraj and we had Yash Daal left arm quick.
We ended up going with Yash Daaland we didn't retain Siraj.
So there were sort of obvious players for whom you were going
to debate. And at that point you'd go away
(04:42):
and you'd probably pull togethersome numbers.
Just kind of what's the evidence?
What have they actually done in the last few seasons?
So we can see that and then quite often we'll get on a Zoom
call or it might be an in personmeeting and you'll sit around
with the coaches, with the director of cricket, with the
scouts and just sort of have a debate.
And the numbers are contributingto that debate really.
But you're right to sort of drawattention to the auctions and
(05:03):
the drafts because that is a massive part of an analyst job
now in domestic cricket. And it's where you know, a lot
of tournaments not won and lost because you still have to go
onto the pitch and do it. But if you have a good auction,
you set yourself up really well for the season itself.
Just in terms of say the data that's available, there's
masses, right? And you could, I could go and
buy data if I wanted or broadly could go and get how do you
(05:26):
filter that and sort of look at the numbers or whatever.
What sort of questions are you asking the numbers to give you
an edge over what I'm when I look at it and see something?
Or how do you make it specific for you as an RCB team to your
venue? Sort of what is it like Google?
Have you got like a search tool within that?
Or how do you sort of make it really specific to sort of make
(05:48):
sense of the numbers and give itnote?
It's not just you don't go on Quickinfo and say his economy
rates X and this guy's Y. Like, how do you actually make
sense of it and give you the true meaning of what the data's
actually telling? You, well, yeah, it's a good
question. There's two parts to it really.
The first one is like how do youactually sort of analyse and
interrogate the data itself? And yeah, it's not quite Google,
(06:08):
but like there are different platforms that you can use.
I use Quickvis's platform, but there are multiple other ones
where basically it's a database that's set up in a way for you
to ask questions of it. So as you said, you anyone could
buy all of the data, but then the companies that you can then
access the software off aggregate it and organize it in
a way that means I can answer, ask questions.
(06:29):
In terms of the questions itself, you're, I think
different teams will have different things that they're
looking for and quite often thatwill, again, we'll use RCB as an
example. We had a way, you know, MO and
Andy and the coaches sat down and had a sort of way in mind of
how they wanted to play their cricket.
You know, for example, it might be we want to be really
aggressive in the power play andmost teams might have that.
But as a result you start looking at metrics that indicate
(06:51):
players who are that. So it might be things like
strike rate in the power play orstrike rate in the 1st 10 balls
of their innings. And then maybe some more
specifically, if you've got an opening partnership, you might
want to have one who's good against pace, one who's good
against spin so that you're building a partnership where
teams can't exploit you. Often it's the sort of how do
you want to play? And that's a framework that's
normally dictated to by the coaches.
(07:11):
They'll have an idea of, you know, the type of cricket they
want to play. It might be influence by the
venue. And that will then lead you to
the questions that you want to ask and provide the data.
And the data then is just one ofa thing that contributes to the
debate. You know, you'll have your view,
the coaches will have their viewand I'll have the data and it's
all together. And then you try and make a
decision to help you win I guess.
(07:31):
Fred it takes into the sort of pressure moments.
I know you do a huge amount of research, huge amount of prep
leading into drafts and auctions, but the time and
sensitive moments say that over the Invincibles draft or or
you're on the clock in the auction.
Have you ever had times where people are looking at you like
come on in, we need a decision right now on this data and
you've know you've got like 30 seconds to make a huge decision?
(07:54):
Not not quite at me like you have.
You feel the eyes of the room onyour table with without a doubt.
But I think if you've done your prep well and most teams do now
and we were particularly thorough RCB, you, you go into
it, it's a bit probably a bit like preparing for a big game.
You feel like you've done your training and at that point
you're sort of like you're backing yourself to go and
(08:14):
execute to an extent. And we had our plan, we've come
up with it and then you kind of just go and do it.
But there are pressure moments. Has there been a player that you
can look at yourself, whether it's in franchise cricket or
something that's come through ininternational cricket, where
you've gone? Do you know what I did?
The data? I looked at that player and
thought they've got a real chance.
Going to recommend them to a coach.
(08:35):
Yeah, there are, There are. I mean, I'm never going to take
100% responsibility for players that have picked obviously a
combination of like the coach atthe end of theirs to make the
call. There are a few.
I mean, there was one right at the start of my career when I
was working for the Melbourne Renegades.
I remember I was very big when he's not a young player, he's
actually quite old at the time. But Muhammad Nabi was someone
who I pushed quite hard with with them and he ended up having
a good career for the Renegades in a couple of years working for
(08:57):
them. And then more recently, I mean,
this is probably a combination with there's a couple of
analysts who work at Oval. But we were quite keen on
Donovan Ferreira, who we signed last year and then he's going to
play with us again this year. Hard hitting, lower order player
who again, like these are players on the up.
And it's not like, you know, we're not plucking a name out of
absolutely nowhere, but it's that you're throwing a name out
(09:18):
there whose numbers are excellent.
And it's like, OK, well, hang ona second, I hadn't thought about
that guy. And then and then you have a
conversation with the coach and you know, he maybe does a bit of
digging with his local state coaches or whatever, and you end
up going for him. And yeah, so that's, it's a nice
feeling when when you do that because again, talking about
where the analyst makes a difference.
I keep going back to the drafts,the auctions.
(09:38):
That's where you can make the biggest difference, because
something like that can happen. I just think on that, that's
where you can add the most valueas well, because obviously
there's the star names that everyone knows about and they're
in short supply, aren't they? I'm for a high price.
But if you can pick out someone that suddenly you think is
undervalued by the numbers that you're looking at, you know,
they match up with a good character and they fit your team
and you get them in and that predictive element that you're
(10:02):
hoping they'll go on to become the star player.
You might get them for two or three years at a sort of value
price rise. And that's quite big in the
auctions, for example, to allowsyou to spend more money on other
players or something that you need more of something or right,
we actually need this X Factor player, we need to push our
number on this player. But if you can find that value,
(10:24):
I think that's one of the areas where you'd make the biggest
difference. I was just thinking on that.
What parameters do you then specifically look at that aren't
just your generic normal numbers?
And how I always think with data, how do you use it as a
predictive element? Like how do you not just look at
historic data? And it's what they've done to
this point. So an example may be so and so
(10:46):
doesn't play spin well accordingto the historic data, but you
might have to talk to a coach isthat I feel like there's a an
area we can really improve him or he's just not being put in in
the right area, if that makes sense.
So is there two parts to that question?
Yeah. So I'll do the parameters one
first. I think that in T20 cricket in
particular, the parameters that you look at will be massively
(11:06):
influenced by the type of playerand the role that they are going
to fulfill. So for example, I've already
made true attention to like the power play batter for an opening
batter. Like just like yourself, you'd
be looking at things that are related to the power play, how
quickly can they start. So power play strike rate, 1st
10 ball strike rate and then specifically against types of
bowlers in the power play, obviously only two men out.
So that's that's in the power play.
(11:27):
Whereas when you're looking for example, at the back end, you'll
be looking more specifically at like death overs economy rate or
death overs boundary percentage.So you're trying to make it as
specific as possible to the roleof the player that you're trying
to sign. If I just look at, I remember,
always remember the story about Jay Dernbach.
He had like the highest economy rate for England in T20
international career for like a really long time.
But like it was a little bit before talking about like death
(11:50):
overs economy rate was kind of athing that happened in the
media. And it was pretty obvious to
anyone who played with Dernbach or who watched much cricket of
him playing was that his economyrate was partly as high as it
was because he always bowled right at the end.
I think Dernbach actually got a lot of unfair stick for that
because he was a bit of a revolutionary in how he went
about a lot of his work. He back of hand, slow balls,
(12:11):
etcetera, and he got a lot of stick, but he bowled the really
tough overs. So isolating it just to look at
the death overs, for example, orimmediately makes that a sort of
easier comparison for him and other bowlers.
And he might still have had a high economy rate, but the point
was it's a little bit of a more fair comparison than say looking
at someone who always takes the new ball.
So the first and most important thing is about making it as
(12:32):
specific as possible to the player.
The second question around predicting and sort of what it
looks like in the future, that is a more difficult thing to do.
And I think that's where I'd probably just like to, to draw
attention to the other kind of emerging role in data analysis,
which is I'm an analyst. Quite often now companies or
teams will also employ data scientists.
(12:53):
So these are guys who are, I might be labeled as a nerd by
some people, but these guys are mega nerds.
And, and, and they're, they're building, you know, complex
algorithms that are designed to try and take all of the data
that we've got and try and look forward with it.
So as you said that, I mean, to some extent, sometimes you can't
do that perfectly, but we're going to try and, you know, they
will try and do it as well as they can.
(13:14):
And that in T cricket, a really good example of how that works
is like there are obviously all these different competitions,
the Big Bash, the PSL, the SA-20, the IPL, they're all
different standards. So the data scientists will do
work to try and adjust those performances so that we can
understand, you know, all right,fine.
If someone's, you know, averaging 30 and striking at 130
in the Blast, what does that mean for their likely
(13:36):
performance in the IPL? We'll try and translate it.
And the work that they do is increasingly important.
And I think the relationship we talk about, like registering
captain and coaching cricket or maybe now analyst and coach,
analyst and captain in the backroom, The relationship
between the analysts and the data scientist is important.
Because if I'm going to go to, you know, Andy Flower and MOBA
and talk to him about a player that I might be recommending
(13:58):
based on data that the data scientist has produced, I need
to understand, I don't know how to build the model, but I need
to understand how it works so that I can then go with
confidence and say, look, I really believe this guy's good
based on XY and Z. So the data scientists are the
guys doing quite a lot of, you know, and these are people who
could, you know, super smart guys.
You probably could be working, you know, as a quant in the city
(14:19):
or something. But teams are employing them.
And you see in football, you know, Man City will probably
have 50 backroom analysts and data scientists.
I. Was going to say when's that
sort of come in then into cricket or what you've
experience from analysts to, youknow, data scientists from these
predictive models. Is that really recent?
And also what what else is therethat you think is not scratched
the surface yet of data in cricket?
(14:40):
Because I feel like cricket's always been a little bit
resistant to data and certain players can be a bit, you know,
or sort of a bit sceptical. Whereas I look at some of the
other sports and I've probably changed my own mind on this and
it's very data-driven. Like you mentioned football, how
many analysts they would have and how involved the coach might
be from off the field. We've always sort of seen
(15:00):
cricket as a captain runs this, we prepare and then it's the
captain's job on the field and then we review it after.
So what things do you think can come into cricket from data as
well that's not quite there yet,either from other sports or just
from your own point of view thatyou think can you can add more
value? Yeah.
Well, the biggest one at the moment, which is beginning to
(15:22):
become more popular. It seems like a really obvious
one, but cricket hasn't been, hasn't found a way to record it
yet, which is just the field positionings like we're seeing
now on Sky. When you're commentating, you've
got that field map and it happens in the IPO as well.
Now getting hold of that data and, and, and doing stuff with
it to better understand how the field influences things.
Because I, I, you know, I've satjust with you in meetings or
(15:44):
with, with fast bowlers and you'll talk about, you know,
this being a plan, but they'll, often they'll say, we know, But
if you put two men out, how do they respond?
Or if you have a split field, how do they respond?
Being able to actually answer that question is massive and
it's beginning to become a thingnow because that well, that's
essentially player tracking. So it's just an improvement in
technology that enables us to know where the fielders are.
So that's a really obvious one. I mean, I think as well like the
(16:07):
the other sort of intangible andyou mentioned the the the
imaginary player you were sayingwho maybe was really good at
spin and and understanding that kind of data, which I guess is
more like coach feedback. So even like logging that kind
of data. So that's how we record data
from scouts is you'll talk to the scout and they might rank
them on a scale of say 1:00 to 5:00 as to how constant they are
(16:28):
against different types of bowling.
That is still data in of itself.And if you get lots of scouts
giving you that data and actually putting that into your
predictive models and better understanding the influence of
that. So his numbers aren't good
against spin when he's played T20 cricket, but all the scouts
and the coaches are saying this guy is an excellent player of
spin. That is worth something.
And ideally the models in the future will start to incorporate
(16:51):
that in. So that's not necessarily
measuring anything other than someone's opinion.
But that is, you know, that's still data.
It's still useful. But data wise interested in your
career, Joseph, did you use it to for any big decisions?
Because when I was playing in the T20 stuff and you just
started, you were this 6-7. It's a great finisher.
Get him in for the last five overs.
(17:11):
He can reverse scoop, scoop. And then suddenly you went up to
the top of the order and that really suits your T20 game.
What what made the decision to go up there?
Did someone come to you and go, do you know what you're wasting
your talent at 5:00. Get up, open the back it.
Came from Mahala Jai Wardner actually at Mumbai Indians.
So I'd signed to play for MumbaiIndians.
They're my first team in the IPLand the first season I batted in
(17:33):
the middle order. That 567 roll around, Hardwick
Pandya, Kieran Pollard. We had Krunal Pandya as well.
And I remember clearly before the next IPL, Mahalage I warden
had just become coach and phonedme to say I've got a bit of a
off the cuff idea. We've got the middle order
covered. I feel like you could be a bit
of a free hit at the top of the order.
(17:54):
No, you haven't done it, but youknow, think how quickly you can
score when the field spread, think how quickly you could
score when there's only two guysoutside.
And so that was more, I don't think as much of A data LED kind
of decision, but maybe we'd haveto ask a bit more on a hunch of
this is the actual team makeup that we had.
We've got a spot as an opener that we need to fill and we feel
(18:17):
like your attributes could go and do that.
And and actually that season, I remember having quite high
strike rate, but not as good an average.
And it took me a little while towork out the role.
But certainly, you know, most ofus want to bat as high up the
order as we can in T20. And it's probably like Freddie
was how you would judge players very differently.
And the guys who bat in the top three, the metrics you're
(18:39):
looking for compared to the guyswho bat 567, which is probably
seen as one of the toughest roles actually.
But the numbers I felt like in my own head is there's something
I would dip into at different times and different.
So I sort of try and match up mygame to are there any holes in
my game? So I might go to Freddy and say,
(19:00):
OK, I've been asked to go and open the innings.
What if you were going to analyse against me?
You know, what would you be telling Stuart Broad to bowl?
What areas am I weak? You know what bowlers styles.
Fist on bit full and move it away from you early 1st 10
balls. Got to get him in the 1st 10
balls if you don't. He'll have a wish at 1:00.
And yeah, but they were the kindof thing I remember working with
(19:22):
Nathan Lehman. And I said, right, you're in the
opposition, write me out. We do this stuff for the
opposition players. I want you to do one on me.
And I want you to see, you know,what you would write down if you
were going to play against me. And that actually led me to
working on, I think it was leg spin and even off spin.
I was like, well, I'm really nottaking advantage of when I faced
the off spinner. I just sort of get off strike.
(19:43):
And there was an area on the field that I wasn't hitting any
boundaries. So I'd go to the Nets and try
and work on that and become a more complete player or, or such
in that sense. And I, I knew then as a player,
if I could match up the power players, if I could get out of
that, then I was into my other role that.
I'd been doing before, so that was a But even now I'd still
(20:04):
have teams that I would go to orplay or coaches.
Yeah, I know you're good at the top, but I think we could, you
know, use you in the middle for this or And then I'd look at the
number and you'd be like, the basic numbers are just poles
apart. You'd be like, you'd open the
innings all day. But then the numbers are very
different. So I think of someone like Tim
David who RCB had an exceptionalseason that he's never going to
(20:28):
be an orange cap winner, but impacts in sort of those was he
face on average 10 balls, 7 balls, something like that, but
that. More specifically, is it 7-8 or
nine? 7 so one now he doesn't need to
but yeah, they're the sort of real things that.
But we're talking quite a lot about T20 here and how data has
(20:49):
affected that. What about Test cricket?
What sort of things did you use or You said you're a bit of a
nerd actually about it, So were you one of the earlier ones to
take up on that or what? I.
Was always interested in it, just I liked the feedback.
You know, early on in my career we'd get the the sort of Hawkeye
maps of where you're bowling or what lengths you're bowling,
maybe at lunch or tea that you could have.
(21:11):
It was old school print out, youknow, print out, have a look at
your lens. But how it evolved and probably
the biggest moment of data that helped me in my career actually
came through the Nottinghamshireanalyst Cooney.
I bowled averagely for knots a couple of games, 2018, nineteen
maybe, and he came to me and he said I just run some numbers and
(21:33):
I looked at all your best spellsthroughout your career and your
leave percentage when you're bowling brilliantly is really
low, sort of 1314% for knots. The first two games you picked
up a couple of two furs, but your leave percentage has been
3334%. So basically meaning in that
over I'm getting left through three balls, two or three balls,
2 1/2 balls. So he said, what do you work on
(21:57):
over the next couple of games ofgetting that lead percentage low
as you can? Basically anything under 20% is
world class. Anything over 20% you're you've
had an OK day. And I just, he started logging
every single ball for me and it worked for the rest of my
career. Honestly, at the end of each
day, I'd reflect on those numbers and it would tell me if
(22:18):
I had a good day, took wickets, I'd be under 20%.
If I was one for 80, I'd be over20%.
And that was something that I held onto and actually put into
my training as well. So I'd have the analysts come to
the net every single bowling spell.
I'd bowl at a batter and just log it, to be honest, not by
sort of anything fancy there, just pen and paper, just I'm
going to bowl 36 balls, how manydo I get left?
(22:39):
And then it just ingrained in mymindset that get my lead
percentage as low as I can. And that's why I was a bowler
that needed action. I needed excitement, drama,
theatre. When I was bowling, I wasn't
someone that could just bowl 7, two and settle in six overs and
six maidens. So that really affected my
character that make the batter play, make the batter make a
decision. And if I was going to get a low
(23:01):
lead percentage, I was going to have a good day.
And just on that, I assume that was to both right and left
handers that was a thing for you.
So did that influence why you started going round the wicket
more to left handers because it made you made them play more
from that angle? Because that was for like in, in
the last sort of 10 years or so when I've worked in cricket, if
you, if I was to come up with one of the most like compelling
examples of where someone has changed something and it has led
(23:23):
to changes in their results. You going around the wicket and
to left handers massively reduced your average against
lefties. You started playing, they
started playing at the ball more.
You start hitting the stamps more.
You both fuller. Like there was there was sort of
there's a bit of a narrative there around what happened.
I just wonder if that was. Yeah, I mean, I look at that
being coach LED Otis Gibson and and a bit of me, but actually I
(23:46):
reckon Otis Gibson would have got that from data.
And and so the Aussies were coming over 2015 and big
left-handed group of them, ChrisRogers, Shawn Marsh, you know,
it looked like there was going to be 6 or 7 potentially
throughout the series. Gibbo came to me in the March
where my Test series is probablyJuly and said look mate, Aussies
(24:09):
are coming lefties. The averaging 37 against left
handers in Test match cricket. If you keep doing that for the
series, you might not play. Do you want to make a change?
You said, I said it makes sense actually because I'm a six foot
six over the wicket, try and swing the ball back.
If I bow the perfect Ting swinger, the likelihood is hits
him on the pad and is going overthe top of the stumps because
(24:30):
the high I'm delivering it from.So let's have a look at doing
something different. So from that time we started
bowling around the wicket in allthe Nets, working on alignment,
focusing hugely on that. And I wasn't brave enough to do
in the first Test match actuallyCardiff, I bowled over the
wicket and I knew I wanted to get around the wicket.
(24:51):
I was like, come on, I just needto get into the series and 2nd
innings. I went round the wicket and got
Chris Rogers caught in the slipsand that gave me the confidence
to then put it into practice going forward.
And I, I don't know the exact numbers on it, but I obviously
knew it made a huge change to me.
And I think certainly for a couple of years, years I was
averaging like 13 or 14 against left handers from around the
wicket. And that was career changing for
(25:14):
me because suddenly I could bring the, the LBW and bowled
in. I was still making batters play
a crucially cut the there was nocut shot at all.
I had to bowl a terrible, terrible ball to, to get cut
through the offside. So I was eliminating runs that
could be scored. And I just had full control of,
of what I was doing. And by the time 2019 came and
David Warner and I'd worked out the the data and the stats on
(25:34):
how I was going to look to bowl at him that I was ingrained in
in what I was doing, I deliveredthe ball exactly what I wanted.
By that point, I think because Ihad a little look at the numbers
because one of the producers gave me the heads up to, to, to
have a look at that. And, and you went from being
predominately over the wicket tothen sort of like 5050 over
around. And then right at the end of
your career, you were basically almost always just bowling
(25:55):
around the wicket. And it's it just a it's a really
interesting arc from going from one method completely to
another. And I was.
Going to say that keeping wicketI can only think of you bowling
around the wicket to left hand. Yeah.
When did you start keeping? Sort of.
Four in that 1415, yeah. So the Aussie series that you
mentioned then the like, I can'tever really remember standing in
(26:19):
position for you to deliver the ball over the wicket to a lefty.
So and actually most Scott, I can't really think from then on,
I feel like everyone sort of goes round the wicket straight
away and. I think the numbers are big on
that. You know, bowlers that used to
bowl over there like Flintoff in05 was a bit of a who always
round the wicket what's going on?
No one practiced that and and now I think to left handers over
(26:41):
70% of balls are bowled around the wicket to them.
Yeah. I think that's probably partly
to do with like as you said, it brings in LBW, more DRS and Dr.
So the influence of DRS which has led to a lot more LBW for
spinners but also for Seamas. Hit the pads, you're more likely
to get a Wicker than you. Matthew Hoggard 2005 Swing Them
Back is like, it's kind of gone,hasn't it really?
There's not so many. Jimmy bowled over.
(27:02):
I think he didn't go round quiteas much as other bowlers.
And Wokes is Chris Woke's much better bowler over the wicket.
Just natural alignment sort of suits nipping across.
The lefty didn't quite ever settle around the wicket to
bring the stumps into play enough.
But ultimately you have to find something that really suits you.
But for me, that taller bowl around the wicket, sort of
Freddie 05 style, moving the ball away just actually annoys
(27:26):
me. I didn't do it sooner, you know
what I mean? I always do it.
Wasted sort of 6-7 years at the start of my career by by not
doing it. But yeah, that data without a
doubt played two massive roles in in my career.
Jose, I want to put your brain on an incident with Nathan
Lehman, England analyst. For a long time, he held some
(27:49):
numbers or boards up to captain morgues.
At some stage you were playing in that game.
Yeah, he did it for a little while.
I think to start with, none of us even really noticed what was
going on. And Morgues and Morgues is
fantastic Captain in the sense that he, he never gave off the
impression that he was big into numbers, but he was very
prepared, very studious, very interested in all elements of
(28:10):
captaincy. And like Freddie was talking
earlier, that collaborative approach of what's his instinct
and telling him, what's the coach's instinct?
What do the numbers say? And then making a informed
decision from that. And he and Nathan had created a
sort of supercomputer that couldrun in 1010 thousand, maybe a
million outcomes on what was going to happen at that any
(28:32):
point in time in the match. And then who should be the
preferred bowler that we had in our line up to to bowl the next
over? The first chap GPT for cricket.
Pretty much, yeah. So it just sort of gave another
live decision making tool and itwasn't that Morg's just followed
it blindly, like, oh, I'm not captain, it's someone else doing
(28:53):
it. Oh, it's number one, you know,
like I remember being in the under elevens, my mum used to
write down which bowlers I should bowl when and it's not
quite like that, but it's just another decision making tool.
And I remember it sort of reallydividing opinion.
I remember Michael Vaughn's of doing something about off.
It's got to this stage and a captain needs that kind of help.
You know what, you know, what isthe captain actually doing?
Is he fit for the job? And then you you actually think
(29:17):
about all the other sports of, you know, you have a big F1 fan
live data in there, the football, they're all watching
stuff and the manager is making decisions from the sidelines.
I actually think it's something that will grow more and more
into cricket. And it's no different from, you
know, running a message down to fine leg and saying have you
thought of bowling this guy at this next over?
But I remember using that in 2022 in the World Cup in
(29:40):
Australia with Nathan. So I remember this time where
I'd be looking up and obviously he'd be like, you know, 18 out
of 20 were we'd make the same decision or something.
And it was against Sri Lanka at Sydney and they got off to a
really fast start. And I'd been using Mark Wood
outside the power play because he was, he was bowling too fast
to only have two fielders outside the ring and one side
(30:01):
was a little bit shorter. But Nathan's number was saying
you've got to bowl Mark Wood. And I think it was the 5th over.
And I was really torn because that would be to the short side.
This cousel Mendez was the bat who'd been playing quite well,
quite likes picking it up. And it was like just looked like
a real risk reward type move forme.
And I was like, I don't feel comfortable for it.
(30:22):
But actually we're probably is the best option because we need
wickets and Woody's probably thebest option.
So we went with the that actually didn't really work out
as we wanted it went. For 25.
But there's so many different examples of when those things
happen and and I do think this will become more and more.
I played for Goodrat Titans and Ashley Shaniro was very active
(30:45):
and I know he's not the analyst,but he's the coach being very
active on the sideline about whoto bowl when, what ends people
should bowl, what field to have,you know, even very so much live
and decision making from the side, which I think it's always
been a bit frowned upon in in cricket, which I don't really
know well, it should be. I'm sure Patrick Mahomes is
(31:06):
miked up to the coach, isn't he?And he's got a whole playbook on
his his arm that he's looking at.
The manager in football is making those decisions.
Formula One is they're altering the car from the pit lane in
different ways, aren't they? So I think there's potential for
cricket to do more and more of that.
And I'm sure at the IPL, did youhave the active role in sort of
(31:27):
life decision making? Or are there, are there times
where you, you know, like it's just an easy win, You're like,
I've got something right now that can impact the game And in
T20, every ball is vital. So.
Yeah. Well, I, I, I completely agree
with with your sort of general sentiment.
Like, I think this is just goingto become more of a thing that
we see. And I think it's the reason why
there's a bit of hesitancy towards it.
(31:48):
It's like cricket sort of. So for a long time has been, you
know, the captain goes out onto the field and makes the
decisions. But increasingly that is
changing. And I think as you said, in T20,
because of the fine margins, sometimes there will be
something that's like, hang on asecond, if we move that field a
little bit this way or we make sure we bowl this bowler in the
next over, that's massive. Whereas in Test cricket you can
allow the game to sometimes drift a little bit more and if a
(32:09):
message can be run out via drinks.
But you know, we, I mean, in, inthe IPL, we had quite a like it
was what Andy, myself, MO Mallow, who's a spin coach,
Richard Hassell and then DK who's obviously you've been
compensating with him at Sky. DK was very animated, similar to
Ashley Schneider as well in terms of moving fielders and
making adjustments. And there were a couple of times
(32:29):
in in really tight games where DK made small adjustments to the
field just basically by getting up and, and moving as you see a
football manager do. And I remember one game, I'm
trying to remember exactly whichone it was.
I think it was against Chennai where he moved third man
fractionally final just by a fewmeters.
And the ball pretty much went straight to that guy next ball
and would have been four had it not been.
And it was the last over. And, you know, don't know what
(32:51):
would have happened had the ballgone for four.
But those little moments are hugely valuable.
I could imagine a few captains are played and they're getting a
bit grizzly with that. Yeah, that ball went the other
way. Yeah, and that's something as
well. I mean, it would be dependent on
the captain to an extent. I mean, if Ms. Dhoni is out
there, I don't think DK is doingthat, but you know, Rajat
Patidar was really open to that kind of stuff as a young captain
(33:12):
and and was willing to to make changes like that.
And sometimes just in terms of my own input, sometimes it's
actually like holding ourselves to our pre match plans.
So in those discussions and emo DK, whoever, a lot can be said
and I'm sat there next to them and sometimes I'll get involved
where actually I feel like maybewe're deviating a little bit too
much from what we might have agreed at the start of the game.
(33:32):
So, you know, we might be getting a bit too.
They might be getting a bit too funky, you know, was trying to
do they they're keen to win. They're keen to the game.
And sometimes it's actually justanchoring us to, you know, hang
on, guys. We we we've still got an over
of, you know, Cornell Pan just bowl.
He's been a brilliant bowler forus this season.
If we bowl that guy, we're not going to finish crew now.
And he's been great. Like, and it's like, maybe we
don't need to do that. So it it you, you play different
(33:53):
roles at different times. But yeah, the in game stuff I
think is only going to head in One Direction.
And, you know, we're seeing that, I think.
Yeah, I think obviously RCB, there's one name that was the
easy retention for you, Virat Kohli.
What was your relationship like with him?
Did he look for things from you as an analyst or things to help
his game? Tell us a little bit about
Virat's relationship with with yourself.
(34:13):
So I've never worked with him whilst he was captain.
My first year RCB was when we had Faff as captain.
But in terms of his interaction with data, that's pretty minimal
in terms of day-to-day. But why he is absolutely
brilliant is we have we have team meetings, we have batting
meetings. And in those meetings, quite
often I'll lead that by sharing information and, you know, we'll
go through bowler by bowler. What balls have they got?
(34:35):
Where do they bowl a different phase of the innings?
And that's really just a prompter for the for a
discussion between the guys in the room.
And you can see Virat's like cricketing brain kick in, in
those moments. And he, his contributions to
those meetings are often excellent and he'll pick up
stuff sometimes that the data doesn't say, sometimes that it
does say. He's not necessarily asking for
lots of data, but what is reassuring is that his like gut
(34:59):
instinct, quite often you'll then go away and look at the
data and about actually completely matches up.
And that show, I think you get that with quite a few players.
I've actually had it a bit with Sam Curran as well in the 100.
Quite often he'll say things andthen you go away and look at it,
or you've already done your research and it matches up with
that, which is I think is alwaysquite an impressive trait from a
player. The England head coach you've
worked with, Baz McCullum in thewhite ball stuff.
(35:22):
As a player playing under him, Ididn't get the sense he lent on
the data too much. Was was he just hiding that from
the players or? He's definitely at the end of
the spectrum that uses it slightly less.
You know, he he if you just needto listen to him talk in the
media, let alone in the dressingroom about the emphasis he
places on instinct and, and going out there and, you know,
(35:42):
being trying to kind of having an uncluttered mind.
And I think that's a big part ofhis coaching philosophy.
That's not to say he didn't ask for stuff like, you know, he he
he's you don't get to where you Baz got to win his career
without having a a cricketing mind that's interested in those
kind of things. And he definitely did ask for
for bits and bobs. But if I was to put different
coaches on a spectrum, as I said, yeah, he'd be at the sort
of slightly lesser end. But just, I mean, you'll
(36:03):
obviously work with him as well.Yeah, no, he would be at the
lesser end and I think Baz is a very clever coach and you're
sort of coaching the people you're coaching at the time, so
in different environment. So he could probably fluctuate a
little bit, but I think he uses it much less.
He encourages instinct, he encourages discussion.
That's one of the big things he would like to use and he might
use dative to encourage a discussion at times.
(36:24):
So he wants players to talk to players and get to know each
other really well. What do they like?
What do they like to feel? I'd say he's more of a feel
coach. He likes to create a vibe and an
atmosphere. But I think behind the glasses
and the cap and the feet up on the table, there's a very
inquisitive mind. And I think this is sometimes
we're sort of the modern cricketgets a bit misconstrued with
(36:46):
people talk about matchups. It comes to be the word that
everyone says on commentary, oh,this is the matchup.
It's the modern thing. It's like, well, back in the day
people just called that cricket knowledge or cricket.
What would you like me to call that on commentary?
Go on. I just feel like you know the.
Jose Boutlier version of matchups gone right.
You know, I think Dhoni was doing matchups a while ago, back
(37:07):
in the day before it became sortof in the give me a word, what
can we call it? Was it?
It's not. Is it not?
It's. Just like game intuition, is it?
It's just like, you know, oh, let's bowl an off spinner at the
left-hander. It's not some game intuition
match up and go on that. That'll work.
Back in the day, people. That might work actually.
But isn't is it not so much whatyou're what you're sort of
(37:28):
saying is like it's a match up doesn't have to be data-driven.
You know, that's the point. It's like match up existed for a
long time. I mean, Harold Larwood bowling
body line to Don Bradman was probably a match up, but it just
wasn't based on data, just basedon.
And people have data like you mentioned.
You made a great sentence earlier about data isn't just
numbers. You know, data can be
(37:49):
experiences. It can be quantified in loads of
different ways. And people talk about Dhoni's
captaincy and it's like he sees things before it's happened.
He's but he is a fountain of knowledge of and data.
So he hasn't collected it and written it all down on his
laptop. But if you have that discussion,
and that's where I believe it needs to be, there's an element
of collaboration and then some kind of conviction.
(38:11):
And that's where teams work really well and go, this is our
style. And if we're undecided, we'll go
with this. That's where teams get a bit,
you know, say Freddie wants to get really involved with he's
got some great data, but the coach is like, I don't want
that. And the captain wants something
different as well. And that's just teamwork that
it's just not. You need that alignment.
And if you know, for McCallum and Stokes, I would say they're
(38:35):
they don't look like classroom LED lads who want to sit down
and pour over data. But they will have meetings in
different ways, whether it's having a coffee or they're
playing golf and they're sat in a buggy.
And you know, Stokes, you might say to him, what do you reckon
about round the wicket to this guy?
And then that's actually then a similar kind of thing.
They start discussion that they can go and ask the question of
(38:56):
the analyst if they want, they can talk about their previous
experiences or you know, then bring you in.
How did you find it when you went round the wicket to this
guy? So different teams will want to
do it in a little bit different way, but having that alignment
and conviction to it. And I played for Rajasthan
Royals and they, you know, we hung a hat on data pretty much.
It was like the data tells us this Shimon Heck, Meyer was a
(39:18):
fantastic player and it was likehis entry point is from the 10th
or 12th over onwards. And I had time like he's
amazing. Get him in earlier.
But it's like, no, but for our team and for this role and you
know, Hetty would sit in the dressing room with his shirt
off, no kit on and be like, well, I'm not needed till the
12th over. That's my entry plan.
Living the dream. And I'll say I want you in
(39:39):
earlier because if you could get40, you might get 80.
But that they were, but there was alignment and that was a
very clear way of whether it's right or wrong, it doesn't
really matter. It's like we're all in and we
all buy into this and and you need that.
But I think cricket will go further and further in different
ways to make use of it better and find players who can be a
(40:01):
bit resistant. I'd say I'm that way inclined.
I was a bit resistant to data before I had my own questions.
I liked you were talking about leave percentage earlier.
As a batter, I quite looking at what's my strike rate without my
boundaries. So I would minus the bull's face
for my boundaries and take that off my score and sort of work
out what my strike rate was without that.
(40:22):
And that sort of allowed me to realize.
How productive I was being from the bulls that I wasn't heading
to the boundary. And if I could get that strike
rate up around 5560, I knew my actual overall strike rate when
I bring the boundaries back intothat would be really high.
But that sort of data type thinking, I would say, allowed
(40:43):
me to play better in my mind as well because it got me into a
mindset that I want to score. I don't need to score like I
need to find singles and run hard and get twos instead of
ones to get that boundary less strike rate or whatever you call
it high as possible. So there's very clever ways, I
think. And I come back to Morgan as one
(41:04):
of those. You would never know.
He knew all the stats and the data and the numbers and but he
knew they were the players that he was dealing with that weren't
sort of hanging off that. But he was very clever at
dripping in things that he'd probably worked closely with
Nathan on into a normal conversation with a Adil Rashid
about the style of bowling or the pace he bowls on a certain
(41:26):
wicket. You know, Rash would probably,
oh, it's, you know, what a genius.
He's just sort of come up with that, you know, about this
venue. But he'd probably, you know,
Nathan would have to take a backseat and not take the credit for
something that morgues would make come across as A and a bit
of cricket intuition. I do think just just lastly on
on this topic, because I think this is like the, the most
important part really is actually like there, there are
(41:48):
lots of analysts out there and there's lots of data out there,
but it's the, the environment and the nature of the
discussions that they feed into is absolutely essential.
And, and if you are, you know, you can have honest discussions
between, well, it's sometimes it's the analysts feeding bits
in, sometimes it's just bit a, asingle bit of data, or sometimes
they're sat around the table as well, honest discussions between
(42:09):
decision makers. But then when it gets to the
players, it's often very quite minimal.
You don't want to be overbearingin terms of the amount of
information that they've got because they're going back to
bars. The thing that I think took away
most from working with bars was that like emphasis on empowering
the player to go out there and, and, and be free and be
liberated. And I think if they're sat there
worrying about, you know, any kind of data analysis, then
(42:29):
that's not going to enable them to do that.
But that doesn't mean that that doesn't happen.
And, you know, RCB, I'd say we're at the slightly other end
of the spectrum in terms we would do a lot of preparation,
but a lot of the players wouldn't know that.
And I think that the art is in that.
And I think, you know, there arelots of different ways of
managing that environment. But, you know, sometimes it's
going and playing golf or sometimes it's just making sure
your meetings are really efficient.
(42:50):
But that's key, I think is, is the the way in which you
communicate the message is massive.
And Freddie the hundreds about to start.
You've helped the Oval Invincible men go back-to-back,
famously at Laws last year. Hat trick.
You have 3 peat hopefully. They've already got the ring
that would. Be the goal.
(43:11):
Yeah, I mean, you've got a greatside, probably led by the a few
players, but the current brothers, they're almost sort of
the the basis of that energy, sort of kept links with Surrey
in a sense deliberately. Yeah, we've, we've always had, I
mean, at the very beginning in the first draft, you were unable
to, I can't remember exactly, but you could show a couple of
icon players, I think they were called.
(43:31):
And and we, we've and we've managed to maintain that core of
Surrey guys throughout. I mean the two current brothers,
we had Jace at the beginning, Jay Roy and we've had Will Jax
throughout. But I mean, the other thing
about those 3, Karen, Karen and Jax as well as they're all
rounders, which has made building our team a lot easier.
And that's, you know, going backto the auctions and the drafts.
If you have all round, if you have one all rounder, let alone
(43:53):
three, you, you, and we actuallyhad Narayan as well for the
first few years, you're suddenlyin a position where you have a
lot more options in terms of your auction or your draft.
You're not having to try and find a way to balance your team
like we found at Oval. We've always had enough batting
depth and we've always had enough bowling depth.
So it's sort of just about actually finding players to fill
the different roles because we're just blessed with with all
(44:15):
rounders. So in in normal 11A side
cricket, which the 100 is, that's super useful in the IPO.
Now with the impact player, it'sactually changed things a little
bit because all rounders are actually a fraction less
valuable because you can just sub in a bowler or sub in a
batter, but just. Going to say, in the 100,
obviously the different playing conditions, the five balls, 10
balls, how do you code it differently?
Or have you noticed any different trends that in the 100
(44:37):
you're like, actually there's anadvantage to play at X bowling
10 balls in a row? Or are there anything sort of
nuances in the 100 that you've sort of noticed?
Yeah, well, there's a there's a few.
I mean, obviously the the bowling ten in a row thing is,
is is really interesting, particularly for new ball
bowlers who can swing the ball. And as we've seen in the 100 in
the last couple of years, bulls have been going around corners.
So it it weirdly the 100 when itinitially started you I think
(45:01):
the natural indication would be like it's probably going to be
favored more aggressive batters because it's 20 balls shorter
than the T20. But actually, the way that the
balls have behaved and the fact that you can bowl 10 balls in a
row. So in theory, you could bowl 20
of the 1st 25 balls of of a match in the 100.
If you're a swing bowler, can add a Milne or damn, damn
Worrell. Exactly.
(45:22):
You can you can take the 1st 20 of the 25 balls.
The ball is still hard and new and swinging.
And that's actually played a massive role in in the 100 in
the last few years. Actually, it's been and it's not
gone the way that you thought itmight go in that it was like,
oh, it's going to favor necessarily super aggressive
batters. You have to an extent got to
have a method to survive againstthat.
Some players just opt to try andhit the ball into the stands and
(45:43):
maybe the ball stop swinging. That's another way of going
about it. I mean you and Salty have formed
a pretty decent pair at the top for for Manchester.
It's just say, Brody, that probably wasn't on your agenda,
would it? If you're an opening bowler
trying to bowl 20 of the 1st 25 initially to.
Be honest with those without those balls.
Nip around with the big 100 stamp on.
It's quite a. Practical.
Come back. But.
Actually, you'd say data. Edgerton Park Crew Club.
(46:04):
Where I grew up, we had a river either end throughout hitting it
into the stands. Our data back then back in the
early 2000s was early doors. Hit the new ball into the river,
get it wet, and they had to bowlthe wet ball for 40 overs.
The same sort of theory used edge and park on a on a Saturday
afternoon. But yeah, I mean, it's been
bowler friendly to be honest with that.
(46:24):
New ball hasn't. It, it has I think like and
that's a bit of that. Swallow your price.
Sometimes as a batter you have to bat without ego and you say
initially you think it's 20 balls less.
I've got to go out and smack it.It's a short game, but that
might be the most vital time in the match where if you can, what
feels defensively but save wickets and then actually attack
the remaining 8080 balls of the the innings.
(46:50):
Freddie AI playing any? Yeah, it's beginning to.
So there's sort. Of there's, there are two areas
where it's contributing 1 is like I can, I'll increasingly
use AI for some of the more basic things that I do
day-to-day that just saves me time.
And you know, that might be something as simple as like what
is the average age of Oval Invincibles squad this year?
(47:10):
And I can just ask ChatGPT that and it will have the data
because it's got the squad on Cricinfo and it will tell me the
average age. And I'm pretty confident in the
findings of that rather than it might save me, you know, a few
minutes. It might only take me 3-4
minutes to do that manually, butit obviously takes 10 seconds to
do it with ChatGPT or with any other AI model.
So that that's like the low hanging fruit.
And then the again, going back to the data scientist that I've
(47:33):
mentioned earlier, I have conversations with guys who will
build models and a lot of them will be leaning on AI and
machine learning to sort of helpbuild the model.
So it is influencing cricket, often in ways that we can't yet
see, but it will influence the models that are built by data
scientists, which in turn influence the kind of players
that I suggest, which then hopefully contributes to squads
(47:54):
that are built. And therefore, you know, it is
influencing the game. I think it's influencing all
walks of life. But it's definitely the onus is
on the analyst, I think, to try and keep pace with that and make
sure that you are best utilizing, I think.
Absolutely. And thanks for joining us,
Freddie. I found that really interesting,
and hopefully our listeners and viewers will see what happens
off the field to help teams win.Yeah, Well, thanks a lot.
(48:15):
Thanks, Brody. Thank you.
Thanks to our partner. Sage and like.
Follow and subscribe. Anywhere you get your favorite
podcast, we're back on Tuesday.
You've helped the Oval Invincible men go back-to-back,
famously at Laws last year, Patrick. 3 peat.
Hopefully. Data without a doubt played two
massive roles in my career. Our data back in the early 2000s
was early doors. Hit the new ball into the river,
get it wet. And they had to.
Bowl the wet for. The overs first ChatGPT for
(00:21):
cricket. Pretty much so.
It just sort of gave another live decision making tool.
What would you like me to call that on commentary?
Go on, big bootly air version ofmatch ups, can we call it?
I'm Stuart Broad. He's Josh Butler.
A bit of a sweaty Josh Butler. What was your journey in here?
(00:42):
I'm a line biker, so I'm trainedto Paddington.
Then I jump on the bike for a little half an hour jaunt down
here. It's electric, why are you
sweating? I work hard actually.
There's we have a rat race actually it's quite competitive
out there on the on the bike, but get my elbows out, get my
helmet on and get down here. So what are we up to today?
Yes, a big one, Jose. This special episode is brought
to you by our friends at Sage, the Official Insights Partner of
(01:05):
the 100. Using data and insights to bring
you closer to the biggest decisions in cricket.
To help your small business growwith AI tools like Sage Copilot,
visit sage.com. No, really looking forward to
this episode. We are joined by Freddie Wilde,
IPL winner with the RCB 100 winner with The Oval.
What went wrong for us, Fred, when I was captain and you were
working with England, but no, great to have you with us.
(01:28):
We're going to do a bit of a deep dive on analysis and how
that plays a huge part in the game broadly.
You've played for a long time, you obviously finished now, but
what sort of changes did you notice in analysis and how much
of it there was or how it's grown in the last few years?
Huge amount when I first startedit was very much looking at
opposition players and and little stats that could help
(01:50):
you. That was it really.
And the analysts would just be in the changing room plotting
the the games and, and studying that way.
And to when I finished the data available, we all had apps on a
phone that you could click on any player in the world and and
figure out technical weaknesses and through stats, the
information just grew. But I think how it's grown in
the modern game to actually picking sides, picking who to
(02:13):
spend money on an auction is pretty incredible, really.
And data, I was a bit of a data geek, to be honest.
I loved getting all the information and filter what I
needed out of it. I know some players get a bit
scared by data, don't they? But yeah, I think it's a great
thing for, for the game and something that other sports have
had for a long period of time, hasn't it?
Maybe cricket we're a bit slow, but I think it plays a a crucial
(02:35):
role. Where does it start for you,
Fred? Let's say example with RCB,
you've just come from winning that tournament, so preparing
for an auction or sort of that, what sort of role is given to
you as the analyst and you know,how do you take a lead from the
coach or captain and those kind of things?
Yeah, well, that's where it starts.
The retentions, the auction is is is the beginning.
That's when you're compiling your squad and it goes all the
(02:57):
way through, I guess right up tomatch day when you're you're
doing preparation for the game itself.
And you're right to mention the coach.
I think that the the nature of work that you do as an analyst
is massively influenced, I thinkby the coach that you've got.
There'll be some coaches, as youguys know, like you mentioned
players, some guys like it, someguys don't.
Some coaches also will be well into it and some won't be so
much into it. And I think the extent to which
(03:17):
they want you to be getting stuck into the numbers will
dictate how much work. You just feel like in any walk
of life, if your boss says you want, we want you to do this,
then you go away and do it. And with RCB, MO Baubat and Andy
Flower are both pretty data-driven.
So we, we, I was involved right from the get go there in terms
of firstly, you start with retentions, who we're going to
retain. And that's a massive moment.
(03:38):
Really. I think people think that it
starts at the auction, but actually your whole auction plan
will be based on the 345 retentions that you make at that
stage. And that's where you really
begin to stop going down a certain path.
So you spend time thinking aboutwho you're going to retain, and
then that leads into auction planning, which, yeah, you can
get very detailed and you build the squad from there.
So a coach would come to you andgo I need a middle order batter,
(04:00):
left arm spinner for my retentions.
Who's lining up the best stats wise or do you go through all
the data and go do you know whatthis player is really
undervalued. We could maybe retain at a
better price. Yeah, it's a a bit of both
really. Like there'll be there'll be
times where I think, I think with with the retention,
sometimes it's it's quite obvious who you might retain.
Like let's use RCB, we're going to retain Vera.
OK, that's one. That's just not necessarily
(04:21):
going to be much of A debate. But there might be other players
there who are sort of you, you understand that they've done
well in your last few seasons, but there might be a couple.
Maybe you're debating, for example, RCB, we had Mohammed
Siraj and we had Yash Daal left arm quick.
We ended up going with Yash Daaland we didn't retain Siraj.
So there were sort of obvious players for whom you were going
to debate. And at that point you'd go away
(04:42):
and you'd probably pull togethersome numbers.
Just kind of what's the evidence?
What have they actually done in the last few seasons?
So we can see that and then quite often we'll get on a Zoom
call or it might be an in personmeeting and you'll sit around
with the coaches, with the director of cricket, with the
scouts and just sort of have a debate.
And the numbers are contributingto that debate really.
But you're right to sort of drawattention to the auctions and
(05:03):
the drafts because that is a massive part of an analyst job
now in domestic cricket. And it's where you know, a lot
of tournaments not won and lost because you still have to go
onto the pitch and do it. But if you have a good auction,
you set yourself up really well for the season itself.
Just in terms of say the data that's available, there's
masses, right? And you could, I could go and
buy data if I wanted or broadly could go and get how do you
(05:26):
filter that and sort of look at the numbers or whatever.
What sort of questions are you asking the numbers to give you
an edge over what I'm when I look at it and see something?
Or how do you make it specific for you as an RCB team to your
venue? Sort of what is it like Google?
Have you got like a search tool within that?
Or how do you sort of make it really specific to sort of make
(05:48):
sense of the numbers and give itnote?
It's not just you don't go on Quickinfo and say his economy
rates X and this guy's Y. Like, how do you actually make
sense of it and give you the true meaning of what the data's
actually telling? You, well, yeah, it's a good
question. There's two parts to it really.
The first one is like how do youactually sort of analyse and
interrogate the data itself? And yeah, it's not quite Google,
(06:08):
but like there are different platforms that you can use.
I use Quickvis's platform, but there are multiple other ones
where basically it's a database that's set up in a way for you
to ask questions of it. So as you said, you anyone could
buy all of the data, but then the companies that you can then
access the software off aggregate it and organize it in
a way that means I can answer, ask questions.
(06:29):
In terms of the questions itself, you're, I think
different teams will have different things that they're
looking for and quite often thatwill, again, we'll use RCB as an
example. We had a way, you know, MO and
Andy and the coaches sat down and had a sort of way in mind of
how they wanted to play their cricket.
You know, for example, it might be we want to be really
aggressive in the power play andmost teams might have that.
But as a result you start looking at metrics that indicate
(06:51):
players who are that. So it might be things like
strike rate in the power play orstrike rate in the 1st 10 balls
of their innings. And then maybe some more
specifically, if you've got an opening partnership, you might
want to have one who's good against pace, one who's good
against spin so that you're building a partnership where
teams can't exploit you. Often it's the sort of how do
you want to play? And that's a framework that's
normally dictated to by the coaches.
(07:11):
They'll have an idea of, you know, the type of cricket they
want to play. It might be influence by the
venue. And that will then lead you to
the questions that you want to ask and provide the data.
And the data then is just one ofa thing that contributes to the
debate. You know, you'll have your view,
the coaches will have their viewand I'll have the data and it's
all together. And then you try and make a
decision to help you win I guess.
(07:31):
Fred it takes into the sort of pressure moments.
I know you do a huge amount of research, huge amount of prep
leading into drafts and auctions, but the time and
sensitive moments say that over the Invincibles draft or or
you're on the clock in the auction.
Have you ever had times where people are looking at you like
come on in, we need a decision right now on this data and
you've know you've got like 30 seconds to make a huge decision?
(07:54):
Not not quite at me like you have.
You feel the eyes of the room onyour table with without a doubt.
But I think if you've done your prep well and most teams do now
and we were particularly thorough RCB, you, you go into
it, it's a bit probably a bit like preparing for a big game.
You feel like you've done your training and at that point
you're sort of like you're backing yourself to go and
(08:14):
execute to an extent. And we had our plan, we've come
up with it and then you kind of just go and do it.
But there are pressure moments. Has there been a player that you
can look at yourself, whether it's in franchise cricket or
something that's come through ininternational cricket, where
you've gone? Do you know what I did?
The data? I looked at that player and
thought they've got a real chance.
Going to recommend them to a coach.
(08:35):
Yeah, there are, There are. I mean, I'm never going to take
100% responsibility for players that have picked obviously a
combination of like the coach atthe end of theirs to make the
call. There are a few.
I mean, there was one right at the start of my career when I
was working for the Melbourne Renegades.
I remember I was very big when he's not a young player, he's
actually quite old at the time. But Muhammad Nabi was someone
who I pushed quite hard with with them and he ended up having
a good career for the Renegades in a couple of years working for
(08:57):
them. And then more recently, I mean,
this is probably a combination with there's a couple of
analysts who work at Oval. But we were quite keen on
Donovan Ferreira, who we signed last year and then he's going to
play with us again this year. Hard hitting, lower order player
who again, like these are players on the up.
And it's not like, you know, we're not plucking a name out of
absolutely nowhere, but it's that you're throwing a name out
(09:18):
there whose numbers are excellent.
And it's like, OK, well, hang ona second, I hadn't thought about
that guy. And then and then you have a
conversation with the coach and you know, he maybe does a bit of
digging with his local state coaches or whatever, and you end
up going for him. And yeah, so that's, it's a nice
feeling when when you do that because again, talking about
where the analyst makes a difference.
I keep going back to the drafts,the auctions.
(09:38):
That's where you can make the biggest difference, because
something like that can happen. I just think on that, that's
where you can add the most valueas well, because obviously
there's the star names that everyone knows about and they're
in short supply, aren't they? I'm for a high price.
But if you can pick out someone that suddenly you think is
undervalued by the numbers that you're looking at, you know,
they match up with a good character and they fit your team
and you get them in and that predictive element that you're
(10:02):
hoping they'll go on to become the star player.
You might get them for two or three years at a sort of value
price rise. And that's quite big in the
auctions, for example, to allowsyou to spend more money on other
players or something that you need more of something or right,
we actually need this X Factor player, we need to push our
number on this player. But if you can find that value,
(10:24):
I think that's one of the areas where you'd make the biggest
difference. I was just thinking on that.
What parameters do you then specifically look at that aren't
just your generic normal numbers?
And how I always think with data, how do you use it as a
predictive element? Like how do you not just look at
historic data? And it's what they've done to
this point. So an example may be so and so
(10:46):
doesn't play spin well accordingto the historic data, but you
might have to talk to a coach isthat I feel like there's a an
area we can really improve him or he's just not being put in in
the right area, if that makes sense.
So is there two parts to that question?
Yeah. So I'll do the parameters one
first. I think that in T20 cricket in
particular, the parameters that you look at will be massively
(11:06):
influenced by the type of playerand the role that they are going
to fulfill. So for example, I've already
made true attention to like the power play batter for an opening
batter. Like just like yourself, you'd
be looking at things that are related to the power play, how
quickly can they start. So power play strike rate, 1st
10 ball strike rate and then specifically against types of
bowlers in the power play, obviously only two men out.
So that's that's in the power play.
(11:27):
Whereas when you're looking for example, at the back end, you'll
be looking more specifically at like death overs economy rate or
death overs boundary percentage.So you're trying to make it as
specific as possible to the roleof the player that you're trying
to sign. If I just look at, I remember,
always remember the story about Jay Dernbach.
He had like the highest economy rate for England in T20
international career for like a really long time.
But like it was a little bit before talking about like death
(11:50):
overs economy rate was kind of athing that happened in the
media. And it was pretty obvious to
anyone who played with Dernbach or who watched much cricket of
him playing was that his economyrate was partly as high as it
was because he always bowled right at the end.
I think Dernbach actually got a lot of unfair stick for that
because he was a bit of a revolutionary in how he went
about a lot of his work. He back of hand, slow balls,
(12:11):
etcetera, and he got a lot of stick, but he bowled the really
tough overs. So isolating it just to look at
the death overs, for example, orimmediately makes that a sort of
easier comparison for him and other bowlers.
And he might still have had a high economy rate, but the point
was it's a little bit of a more fair comparison than say looking
at someone who always takes the new ball.
So the first and most important thing is about making it as
(12:32):
specific as possible to the player.
The second question around predicting and sort of what it
looks like in the future, that is a more difficult thing to do.
And I think that's where I'd probably just like to, to draw
attention to the other kind of emerging role in data analysis,
which is I'm an analyst. Quite often now companies or
teams will also employ data scientists.
(12:53):
So these are guys who are, I might be labeled as a nerd by
some people, but these guys are mega nerds.
And, and, and they're, they're building, you know, complex
algorithms that are designed to try and take all of the data
that we've got and try and look forward with it.
So as you said that, I mean, to some extent, sometimes you can't
do that perfectly, but we're going to try and, you know, they
will try and do it as well as they can.
(13:14):
And that in T cricket, a really good example of how that works
is like there are obviously all these different competitions,
the Big Bash, the PSL, the SA-20, the IPL, they're all
different standards. So the data scientists will do
work to try and adjust those performances so that we can
understand, you know, all right,fine.
If someone's, you know, averaging 30 and striking at 130
in the Blast, what does that mean for their likely
(13:36):
performance in the IPL? We'll try and translate it.
And the work that they do is increasingly important.
And I think the relationship we talk about, like registering
captain and coaching cricket or maybe now analyst and coach,
analyst and captain in the backroom, The relationship
between the analysts and the data scientist is important.
Because if I'm going to go to, you know, Andy Flower and MOBA
and talk to him about a player that I might be recommending
(13:58):
based on data that the data scientist has produced, I need
to understand, I don't know how to build the model, but I need
to understand how it works so that I can then go with
confidence and say, look, I really believe this guy's good
based on XY and Z. So the data scientists are the
guys doing quite a lot of, you know, and these are people who
could, you know, super smart guys.
You probably could be working, you know, as a quant in the city
(14:19):
or something. But teams are employing them.
And you see in football, you know, Man City will probably
have 50 backroom analysts and data scientists.
I. Was going to say when's that
sort of come in then into cricket or what you've
experience from analysts to, youknow, data scientists from these
predictive models. Is that really recent?
And also what what else is therethat you think is not scratched
the surface yet of data in cricket?
(14:40):
Because I feel like cricket's always been a little bit
resistant to data and certain players can be a bit, you know,
or sort of a bit sceptical. Whereas I look at some of the
other sports and I've probably changed my own mind on this and
it's very data-driven. Like you mentioned football, how
many analysts they would have and how involved the coach might
be from off the field. We've always sort of seen
(15:00):
cricket as a captain runs this, we prepare and then it's the
captain's job on the field and then we review it after.
So what things do you think can come into cricket from data as
well that's not quite there yet,either from other sports or just
from your own point of view thatyou think can you can add more
value? Yeah.
Well, the biggest one at the moment, which is beginning to
(15:22):
become more popular. It seems like a really obvious
one, but cricket hasn't been, hasn't found a way to record it
yet, which is just the field positionings like we're seeing
now on Sky. When you're commentating, you've
got that field map and it happens in the IPO as well.
Now getting hold of that data and, and, and doing stuff with
it to better understand how the field influences things.
Because I, I, you know, I've satjust with you in meetings or
(15:44):
with, with fast bowlers and you'll talk about, you know,
this being a plan, but they'll, often they'll say, we know, But
if you put two men out, how do they respond?
Or if you have a split field, how do they respond?
Being able to actually answer that question is massive and
it's beginning to become a thingnow because that well, that's
essentially player tracking. So it's just an improvement in
technology that enables us to know where the fielders are.
So that's a really obvious one. I mean, I think as well like the
(16:07):
the other sort of intangible andyou mentioned the the the
imaginary player you were sayingwho maybe was really good at
spin and and understanding that kind of data, which I guess is
more like coach feedback. So even like logging that kind
of data. So that's how we record data
from scouts is you'll talk to the scout and they might rank
them on a scale of say 1:00 to 5:00 as to how constant they are
(16:28):
against different types of bowling.
That is still data in of itself.And if you get lots of scouts
giving you that data and actually putting that into your
predictive models and better understanding the influence of
that. So his numbers aren't good
against spin when he's played T20 cricket, but all the scouts
and the coaches are saying this guy is an excellent player of
spin. That is worth something.
And ideally the models in the future will start to incorporate
(16:51):
that in. So that's not necessarily
measuring anything other than someone's opinion.
But that is, you know, that's still data.
It's still useful. But data wise interested in your
career, Joseph, did you use it to for any big decisions?
Because when I was playing in the T20 stuff and you just
started, you were this 6-7. It's a great finisher.
Get him in for the last five overs.
(17:11):
He can reverse scoop, scoop. And then suddenly you went up to
the top of the order and that really suits your T20 game.
What what made the decision to go up there?
Did someone come to you and go, do you know what you're wasting
your talent at 5:00. Get up, open the back it.
Came from Mahala Jai Wardner actually at Mumbai Indians.
So I'd signed to play for MumbaiIndians.
They're my first team in the IPLand the first season I batted in
(17:33):
the middle order. That 567 roll around, Hardwick
Pandya, Kieran Pollard. We had Krunal Pandya as well.
And I remember clearly before the next IPL, Mahalage I warden
had just become coach and phonedme to say I've got a bit of a
off the cuff idea. We've got the middle order
covered. I feel like you could be a bit
of a free hit at the top of the order.
(17:54):
No, you haven't done it, but youknow, think how quickly you can
score when the field spread, think how quickly you could
score when there's only two guysoutside.
And so that was more, I don't think as much of A data LED kind
of decision, but maybe we'd haveto ask a bit more on a hunch of
this is the actual team makeup that we had.
We've got a spot as an opener that we need to fill and we feel
(18:17):
like your attributes could go and do that.
And and actually that season, I remember having quite high
strike rate, but not as good an average.
And it took me a little while towork out the role.
But certainly, you know, most ofus want to bat as high up the
order as we can in T20. And it's probably like Freddie
was how you would judge players very differently.
And the guys who bat in the top three, the metrics you're
(18:39):
looking for compared to the guyswho bat 567, which is probably
seen as one of the toughest roles actually.
But the numbers I felt like in my own head is there's something
I would dip into at different times and different.
So I sort of try and match up mygame to are there any holes in
my game? So I might go to Freddy and say,
(19:00):
OK, I've been asked to go and open the innings.
What if you were going to analyse against me?
You know, what would you be telling Stuart Broad to bowl?
What areas am I weak? You know what bowlers styles.
Fist on bit full and move it away from you early 1st 10
balls. Got to get him in the 1st 10
balls if you don't. He'll have a wish at 1:00.
And yeah, but they were the kindof thing I remember working with
(19:22):
Nathan Lehman. And I said, right, you're in the
opposition, write me out. We do this stuff for the
opposition players. I want you to do one on me.
And I want you to see, you know,what you would write down if you
were going to play against me. And that actually led me to
working on, I think it was leg spin and even off spin.
I was like, well, I'm really nottaking advantage of when I faced
the off spinner. I just sort of get off strike.
(19:43):
And there was an area on the field that I wasn't hitting any
boundaries. So I'd go to the Nets and try
and work on that and become a more complete player or, or such
in that sense. And I, I knew then as a player,
if I could match up the power players, if I could get out of
that, then I was into my other role that.
I'd been doing before, so that was a But even now I'd still
(20:04):
have teams that I would go to orplay or coaches.
Yeah, I know you're good at the top, but I think we could, you
know, use you in the middle for this or And then I'd look at the
number and you'd be like, the basic numbers are just poles
apart. You'd be like, you'd open the
innings all day. But then the numbers are very
different. So I think of someone like Tim
David who RCB had an exceptionalseason that he's never going to
(20:28):
be an orange cap winner, but impacts in sort of those was he
face on average 10 balls, 7 balls, something like that, but
that. More specifically, is it 7-8 or
nine? 7 so one now he doesn't need to
but yeah, they're the sort of real things that.
But we're talking quite a lot about T20 here and how data has
(20:49):
affected that. What about Test cricket?
What sort of things did you use or You said you're a bit of a
nerd actually about it, So were you one of the earlier ones to
take up on that or what? I.
Was always interested in it, just I liked the feedback.
You know, early on in my career we'd get the the sort of Hawkeye
maps of where you're bowling or what lengths you're bowling,
maybe at lunch or tea that you could have.
(21:11):
It was old school print out, youknow, print out, have a look at
your lens. But how it evolved and probably
the biggest moment of data that helped me in my career actually
came through the Nottinghamshireanalyst Cooney.
I bowled averagely for knots a couple of games, 2018, nineteen
maybe, and he came to me and he said I just run some numbers and
(21:33):
I looked at all your best spellsthroughout your career and your
leave percentage when you're bowling brilliantly is really
low, sort of 1314% for knots. The first two games you picked
up a couple of two furs, but your leave percentage has been
3334%. So basically meaning in that
over I'm getting left through three balls, two or three balls,
2 1/2 balls. So he said, what do you work on
(21:57):
over the next couple of games ofgetting that lead percentage low
as you can? Basically anything under 20% is
world class. Anything over 20% you're you've
had an OK day. And I just, he started logging
every single ball for me and it worked for the rest of my
career. Honestly, at the end of each
day, I'd reflect on those numbers and it would tell me if
(22:18):
I had a good day, took wickets, I'd be under 20%.
If I was one for 80, I'd be over20%.
And that was something that I held onto and actually put into
my training as well. So I'd have the analysts come to
the net every single bowling spell.
I'd bowl at a batter and just log it, to be honest, not by
sort of anything fancy there, just pen and paper, just I'm
going to bowl 36 balls, how manydo I get left?
(22:39):
And then it just ingrained in mymindset that get my lead
percentage as low as I can. And that's why I was a bowler
that needed action. I needed excitement, drama,
theatre. When I was bowling, I wasn't
someone that could just bowl 7, two and settle in six overs and
six maidens. So that really affected my
character that make the batter play, make the batter make a
decision. And if I was going to get a low
(23:01):
lead percentage, I was going to have a good day.
And just on that, I assume that was to both right and left
handers that was a thing for you.
So did that influence why you started going round the wicket
more to left handers because it made you made them play more
from that angle? Because that was for like in, in
the last sort of 10 years or so when I've worked in cricket, if
you, if I was to come up with one of the most like compelling
examples of where someone has changed something and it has led
(23:23):
to changes in their results. You going around the wicket and
to left handers massively reduced your average against
lefties. You started playing, they
started playing at the ball more.
You start hitting the stamps more.
You both fuller. Like there was there was sort of
there's a bit of a narrative there around what happened.
I just wonder if that was. Yeah, I mean, I look at that
being coach LED Otis Gibson and and a bit of me, but actually I
(23:46):
reckon Otis Gibson would have got that from data.
And and so the Aussies were coming over 2015 and big
left-handed group of them, ChrisRogers, Shawn Marsh, you know,
it looked like there was going to be 6 or 7 potentially
throughout the series. Gibbo came to me in the March
where my Test series is probablyJuly and said look mate, Aussies
(24:09):
are coming lefties. The averaging 37 against left
handers in Test match cricket. If you keep doing that for the
series, you might not play. Do you want to make a change?
You said, I said it makes sense actually because I'm a six foot
six over the wicket, try and swing the ball back.
If I bow the perfect Ting swinger, the likelihood is hits
him on the pad and is going overthe top of the stumps because
(24:30):
the high I'm delivering it from.So let's have a look at doing
something different. So from that time we started
bowling around the wicket in allthe Nets, working on alignment,
focusing hugely on that. And I wasn't brave enough to do
in the first Test match actuallyCardiff, I bowled over the
wicket and I knew I wanted to get around the wicket.
(24:51):
I was like, come on, I just needto get into the series and 2nd
innings. I went round the wicket and got
Chris Rogers caught in the slipsand that gave me the confidence
to then put it into practice going forward.
And I, I don't know the exact numbers on it, but I obviously
knew it made a huge change to me.
And I think certainly for a couple of years, years I was
averaging like 13 or 14 against left handers from around the
wicket. And that was career changing for
(25:14):
me because suddenly I could bring the, the LBW and bowled
in. I was still making batters play
a crucially cut the there was nocut shot at all.
I had to bowl a terrible, terrible ball to, to get cut
through the offside. So I was eliminating runs that
could be scored. And I just had full control of,
of what I was doing. And by the time 2019 came and
David Warner and I'd worked out the the data and the stats on
(25:34):
how I was going to look to bowl at him that I was ingrained in
in what I was doing, I deliveredthe ball exactly what I wanted.
By that point, I think because Ihad a little look at the numbers
because one of the producers gave me the heads up to, to, to
have a look at that. And, and you went from being
predominately over the wicket tothen sort of like 5050 over
around. And then right at the end of
your career, you were basically almost always just bowling
(25:55):
around the wicket. And it's it just a it's a really
interesting arc from going from one method completely to
another. And I was.
Going to say that keeping wicketI can only think of you bowling
around the wicket to left hand. Yeah.
When did you start keeping? Sort of.
Four in that 1415, yeah. So the Aussie series that you
mentioned then the like, I can'tever really remember standing in
(26:19):
position for you to deliver the ball over the wicket to a lefty.
So and actually most Scott, I can't really think from then on,
I feel like everyone sort of goes round the wicket straight
away and. I think the numbers are big on
that. You know, bowlers that used to
bowl over there like Flintoff in05 was a bit of a who always
round the wicket what's going on?
No one practiced that and and now I think to left handers over
(26:41):
70% of balls are bowled around the wicket to them.
Yeah. I think that's probably partly
to do with like as you said, it brings in LBW, more DRS and Dr.
So the influence of DRS which has led to a lot more LBW for
spinners but also for Seamas. Hit the pads, you're more likely
to get a Wicker than you. Matthew Hoggard 2005 Swing Them
Back is like, it's kind of gone,hasn't it really?
There's not so many. Jimmy bowled over.
(27:02):
I think he didn't go round quiteas much as other bowlers.
And Wokes is Chris Woke's much better bowler over the wicket.
Just natural alignment sort of suits nipping across.
The lefty didn't quite ever settle around the wicket to
bring the stumps into play enough.
But ultimately you have to find something that really suits you.
But for me, that taller bowl around the wicket, sort of
Freddie 05 style, moving the ball away just actually annoys
(27:26):
me. I didn't do it sooner, you know
what I mean? I always do it.
Wasted sort of 6-7 years at the start of my career by by not
doing it. But yeah, that data without a
doubt played two massive roles in in my career.
Jose, I want to put your brain on an incident with Nathan
Lehman, England analyst. For a long time, he held some
(27:49):
numbers or boards up to captain morgues.
At some stage you were playing in that game.
Yeah, he did it for a little while.
I think to start with, none of us even really noticed what was
going on. And Morgues and Morgues is
fantastic Captain in the sense that he, he never gave off the
impression that he was big into numbers, but he was very
prepared, very studious, very interested in all elements of
(28:10):
captaincy. And like Freddie was talking
earlier, that collaborative approach of what's his instinct
and telling him, what's the coach's instinct?
What do the numbers say? And then making a informed
decision from that. And he and Nathan had created a
sort of supercomputer that couldrun in 1010 thousand, maybe a
million outcomes on what was going to happen at that any
(28:32):
point in time in the match. And then who should be the
preferred bowler that we had in our line up to to bowl the next
over? The first chap GPT for cricket.
Pretty much, yeah. So it just sort of gave another
live decision making tool and itwasn't that Morg's just followed
it blindly, like, oh, I'm not captain, it's someone else doing
(28:53):
it. Oh, it's number one, you know,
like I remember being in the under elevens, my mum used to
write down which bowlers I should bowl when and it's not
quite like that, but it's just another decision making tool.
And I remember it sort of reallydividing opinion.
I remember Michael Vaughn's of doing something about off.
It's got to this stage and a captain needs that kind of help.
You know what, you know, what isthe captain actually doing?
Is he fit for the job? And then you you actually think
(29:17):
about all the other sports of, you know, you have a big F1 fan
live data in there, the football, they're all watching
stuff and the manager is making decisions from the sidelines.
I actually think it's something that will grow more and more
into cricket. And it's no different from, you
know, running a message down to fine leg and saying have you
thought of bowling this guy at this next over?
But I remember using that in 2022 in the World Cup in
(29:40):
Australia with Nathan. So I remember this time where
I'd be looking up and obviously he'd be like, you know, 18 out
of 20 were we'd make the same decision or something.
And it was against Sri Lanka at Sydney and they got off to a
really fast start. And I'd been using Mark Wood
outside the power play because he was, he was bowling too fast
to only have two fielders outside the ring and one side
(30:01):
was a little bit shorter. But Nathan's number was saying
you've got to bowl Mark Wood. And I think it was the 5th over.
And I was really torn because that would be to the short side.
This cousel Mendez was the bat who'd been playing quite well,
quite likes picking it up. And it was like just looked like
a real risk reward type move forme.
And I was like, I don't feel comfortable for it.
(30:22):
But actually we're probably is the best option because we need
wickets and Woody's probably thebest option.
So we went with the that actually didn't really work out
as we wanted it went. For 25.
But there's so many different examples of when those things
happen and and I do think this will become more and more.
I played for Goodrat Titans and Ashley Shaniro was very active
(30:45):
and I know he's not the analyst,but he's the coach being very
active on the sideline about whoto bowl when, what ends people
should bowl, what field to have,you know, even very so much live
and decision making from the side, which I think it's always
been a bit frowned upon in in cricket, which I don't really
know well, it should be. I'm sure Patrick Mahomes is
(31:06):
miked up to the coach, isn't he?And he's got a whole playbook on
his his arm that he's looking at.
The manager in football is making those decisions.
Formula One is they're altering the car from the pit lane in
different ways, aren't they? So I think there's potential for
cricket to do more and more of that.
And I'm sure at the IPL, did youhave the active role in sort of
(31:27):
life decision making? Or are there, are there times
where you, you know, like it's just an easy win, You're like,
I've got something right now that can impact the game And in
T20, every ball is vital. So.
Yeah. Well, I, I, I completely agree
with with your sort of general sentiment.
Like, I think this is just goingto become more of a thing that
we see. And I think it's the reason why
there's a bit of hesitancy towards it.
(31:48):
It's like cricket sort of. So for a long time has been, you
know, the captain goes out onto the field and makes the
decisions. But increasingly that is
changing. And I think as you said, in T20,
because of the fine margins, sometimes there will be
something that's like, hang on asecond, if we move that field a
little bit this way or we make sure we bowl this bowler in the
next over, that's massive. Whereas in Test cricket you can
allow the game to sometimes drift a little bit more and if a
(32:09):
message can be run out via drinks.
But you know, we, I mean, in, inthe IPL, we had quite a like it
was what Andy, myself, MO Mallow, who's a spin coach,
Richard Hassell and then DK who's obviously you've been
compensating with him at Sky. DK was very animated, similar to
Ashley Schneider as well in terms of moving fielders and
making adjustments. And there were a couple of times
(32:29):
in in really tight games where DK made small adjustments to the
field just basically by getting up and, and moving as you see a
football manager do. And I remember one game, I'm
trying to remember exactly whichone it was.
I think it was against Chennai where he moved third man
fractionally final just by a fewmeters.
And the ball pretty much went straight to that guy next ball
and would have been four had it not been.
And it was the last over. And, you know, don't know what
(32:51):
would have happened had the ballgone for four.
But those little moments are hugely valuable.
I could imagine a few captains are played and they're getting a
bit grizzly with that. Yeah, that ball went the other
way. Yeah, and that's something as
well. I mean, it would be dependent on
the captain to an extent. I mean, if Ms. Dhoni is out
there, I don't think DK is doingthat, but you know, Rajat
Patidar was really open to that kind of stuff as a young captain
(33:12):
and and was willing to to make changes like that.
And sometimes just in terms of my own input, sometimes it's
actually like holding ourselves to our pre match plans.
So in those discussions and emo DK, whoever, a lot can be said
and I'm sat there next to them and sometimes I'll get involved
where actually I feel like maybewe're deviating a little bit too
much from what we might have agreed at the start of the game.
(33:32):
So, you know, we might be getting a bit too.
They might be getting a bit too funky, you know, was trying to
do they they're keen to win. They're keen to the game.
And sometimes it's actually justanchoring us to, you know, hang
on, guys. We we we've still got an over
of, you know, Cornell Pan just bowl.
He's been a brilliant bowler forus this season.
If we bowl that guy, we're not going to finish crew now.
And he's been great. Like, and it's like, maybe we
don't need to do that. So it it you, you play different
(33:53):
roles at different times. But yeah, the in game stuff I
think is only going to head in One Direction.
And, you know, we're seeing that, I think.
Yeah, I think obviously RCB, there's one name that was the
easy retention for you, Virat Kohli.
What was your relationship like with him?
Did he look for things from you as an analyst or things to help
his game? Tell us a little bit about
Virat's relationship with with yourself.
(34:13):
So I've never worked with him whilst he was captain.
My first year RCB was when we had Faff as captain.
But in terms of his interaction with data, that's pretty minimal
in terms of day-to-day. But why he is absolutely
brilliant is we have we have team meetings, we have batting
meetings. And in those meetings, quite
often I'll lead that by sharing information and, you know, we'll
go through bowler by bowler. What balls have they got?
(34:35):
Where do they bowl a different phase of the innings?
And that's really just a prompter for the for a
discussion between the guys in the room.
And you can see Virat's like cricketing brain kick in, in
those moments. And he, his contributions to
those meetings are often excellent and he'll pick up
stuff sometimes that the data doesn't say, sometimes that it
does say. He's not necessarily asking for
lots of data, but what is reassuring is that his like gut
(34:59):
instinct, quite often you'll then go away and look at the
data and about actually completely matches up.
And that show, I think you get that with quite a few players.
I've actually had it a bit with Sam Curran as well in the 100.
Quite often he'll say things andthen you go away and look at it,
or you've already done your research and it matches up with
that, which is I think is alwaysquite an impressive trait from a
player. The England head coach you've
worked with, Baz McCullum in thewhite ball stuff.
(35:22):
As a player playing under him, Ididn't get the sense he lent on
the data too much. Was was he just hiding that from
the players or? He's definitely at the end of
the spectrum that uses it slightly less.
You know, he he if you just needto listen to him talk in the
media, let alone in the dressingroom about the emphasis he
places on instinct and, and going out there and, you know,
(35:42):
being trying to kind of having an uncluttered mind.
And I think that's a big part ofhis coaching philosophy.
That's not to say he didn't ask for stuff like, you know, he he
he's you don't get to where you Baz got to win his career
without having a a cricketing mind that's interested in those
kind of things. And he definitely did ask for
for bits and bobs. But if I was to put different
coaches on a spectrum, as I said, yeah, he'd be at the sort
of slightly lesser end. But just, I mean, you'll
(36:03):
obviously work with him as well.Yeah, no, he would be at the
lesser end and I think Baz is a very clever coach and you're
sort of coaching the people you're coaching at the time, so
in different environment. So he could probably fluctuate a
little bit, but I think he uses it much less.
He encourages instinct, he encourages discussion.
That's one of the big things he would like to use and he might
use dative to encourage a discussion at times.
(36:24):
So he wants players to talk to players and get to know each
other really well. What do they like?
What do they like to feel? I'd say he's more of a feel
coach. He likes to create a vibe and an
atmosphere. But I think behind the glasses
and the cap and the feet up on the table, there's a very
inquisitive mind. And I think this is sometimes
we're sort of the modern cricketgets a bit misconstrued with
(36:46):
people talk about matchups. It comes to be the word that
everyone says on commentary, oh,this is the matchup.
It's the modern thing. It's like, well, back in the day
people just called that cricket knowledge or cricket.
What would you like me to call that on commentary?
Go on. I just feel like you know the.
Jose Boutlier version of matchups gone right.
You know, I think Dhoni was doing matchups a while ago, back
(37:07):
in the day before it became sortof in the give me a word, what
can we call it? Was it?
It's not. Is it not?
It's. Just like game intuition, is it?
It's just like, you know, oh, let's bowl an off spinner at the
left-hander. It's not some game intuition
match up and go on that. That'll work.
Back in the day, people. That might work actually.
But isn't is it not so much whatyou're what you're sort of
(37:28):
saying is like it's a match up doesn't have to be data-driven.
You know, that's the point. It's like match up existed for a
long time. I mean, Harold Larwood bowling
body line to Don Bradman was probably a match up, but it just
wasn't based on data, just basedon.
And people have data like you mentioned.
You made a great sentence earlier about data isn't just
numbers. You know, data can be
(37:49):
experiences. It can be quantified in loads of
different ways. And people talk about Dhoni's
captaincy and it's like he sees things before it's happened.
He's but he is a fountain of knowledge of and data.
So he hasn't collected it and written it all down on his
laptop. But if you have that discussion,
and that's where I believe it needs to be, there's an element
of collaboration and then some kind of conviction.
(38:11):
And that's where teams work really well and go, this is our
style. And if we're undecided, we'll go
with this. That's where teams get a bit,
you know, say Freddie wants to get really involved with he's
got some great data, but the coach is like, I don't want
that. And the captain wants something
different as well. And that's just teamwork that
it's just not. You need that alignment.
And if you know, for McCallum and Stokes, I would say they're
(38:35):
they don't look like classroom LED lads who want to sit down
and pour over data. But they will have meetings in
different ways, whether it's having a coffee or they're
playing golf and they're sat in a buggy.
And you know, Stokes, you might say to him, what do you reckon
about round the wicket to this guy?
And then that's actually then a similar kind of thing.
They start discussion that they can go and ask the question of
(38:56):
the analyst if they want, they can talk about their previous
experiences or you know, then bring you in.
How did you find it when you went round the wicket to this
guy? So different teams will want to
do it in a little bit different way, but having that alignment
and conviction to it. And I played for Rajasthan
Royals and they, you know, we hung a hat on data pretty much.
It was like the data tells us this Shimon Heck, Meyer was a
(39:18):
fantastic player and it was likehis entry point is from the 10th
or 12th over onwards. And I had time like he's
amazing. Get him in earlier.
But it's like, no, but for our team and for this role and you
know, Hetty would sit in the dressing room with his shirt
off, no kit on and be like, well, I'm not needed till the
12th over. That's my entry plan.
Living the dream. And I'll say I want you in
(39:39):
earlier because if you could get40, you might get 80.
But that they were, but there was alignment and that was a
very clear way of whether it's right or wrong, it doesn't
really matter. It's like we're all in and we
all buy into this and and you need that.
But I think cricket will go further and further in different
ways to make use of it better and find players who can be a
(40:01):
bit resistant. I'd say I'm that way inclined.
I was a bit resistant to data before I had my own questions.
I liked you were talking about leave percentage earlier.
As a batter, I quite looking at what's my strike rate without my
boundaries. So I would minus the bull's face
for my boundaries and take that off my score and sort of work
out what my strike rate was without that.
(40:22):
And that sort of allowed me to realize.
How productive I was being from the bulls that I wasn't heading
to the boundary. And if I could get that strike
rate up around 5560, I knew my actual overall strike rate when
I bring the boundaries back intothat would be really high.
But that sort of data type thinking, I would say, allowed
(40:43):
me to play better in my mind as well because it got me into a
mindset that I want to score. I don't need to score like I
need to find singles and run hard and get twos instead of
ones to get that boundary less strike rate or whatever you call
it high as possible. So there's very clever ways, I
think. And I come back to Morgan as one
(41:04):
of those. You would never know.
He knew all the stats and the data and the numbers and but he
knew they were the players that he was dealing with that weren't
sort of hanging off that. But he was very clever at
dripping in things that he'd probably worked closely with
Nathan on into a normal conversation with a Adil Rashid
about the style of bowling or the pace he bowls on a certain
(41:26):
wicket. You know, Rash would probably,
oh, it's, you know, what a genius.
He's just sort of come up with that, you know, about this
venue. But he'd probably, you know,
Nathan would have to take a backseat and not take the credit for
something that morgues would make come across as A and a bit
of cricket intuition. I do think just just lastly on
on this topic, because I think this is like the, the most
important part really is actually like there, there are
(41:48):
lots of analysts out there and there's lots of data out there,
but it's the, the environment and the nature of the
discussions that they feed into is absolutely essential.
And, and if you are, you know, you can have honest discussions
between, well, it's sometimes it's the analysts feeding bits
in, sometimes it's just bit a, asingle bit of data, or sometimes
they're sat around the table as well, honest discussions between
(42:09):
decision makers. But then when it gets to the
players, it's often very quite minimal.
You don't want to be overbearingin terms of the amount of
information that they've got because they're going back to
bars. The thing that I think took away
most from working with bars was that like emphasis on empowering
the player to go out there and, and, and be free and be
liberated. And I think if they're sat there
worrying about, you know, any kind of data analysis, then
(42:29):
that's not going to enable them to do that.
But that doesn't mean that that doesn't happen.
And, you know, RCB, I'd say we're at the slightly other end
of the spectrum in terms we would do a lot of preparation,
but a lot of the players wouldn't know that.
And I think that the art is in that.
And I think, you know, there arelots of different ways of
managing that environment. But, you know, sometimes it's
going and playing golf or sometimes it's just making sure
your meetings are really efficient.
(42:50):
But that's key, I think is, is the the way in which you
communicate the message is massive.
And Freddie the hundreds about to start.
You've helped the Oval Invincible men go back-to-back,
famously at Laws last year. Hat trick.
You have 3 peat hopefully. They've already got the ring
that would. Be the goal.
(43:11):
Yeah, I mean, you've got a greatside, probably led by the a few
players, but the current brothers, they're almost sort of
the the basis of that energy, sort of kept links with Surrey
in a sense deliberately. Yeah, we've, we've always had, I
mean, at the very beginning in the first draft, you were unable
to, I can't remember exactly, but you could show a couple of
icon players, I think they were called.
(43:31):
And and we, we've and we've managed to maintain that core of
Surrey guys throughout. I mean the two current brothers,
we had Jace at the beginning, Jay Roy and we've had Will Jax
throughout. But I mean, the other thing
about those 3, Karen, Karen and Jax as well as they're all
rounders, which has made building our team a lot easier.
And that's, you know, going backto the auctions and the drafts.
If you have all round, if you have one all rounder, let alone
(43:53):
three, you, you, and we actuallyhad Narayan as well for the
first few years, you're suddenlyin a position where you have a
lot more options in terms of your auction or your draft.
You're not having to try and find a way to balance your team
like we found at Oval. We've always had enough batting
depth and we've always had enough bowling depth.
So it's sort of just about actually finding players to fill
the different roles because we're just blessed with with all
(44:15):
rounders. So in in normal 11A side
cricket, which the 100 is, that's super useful in the IPO.
Now with the impact player, it'sactually changed things a little
bit because all rounders are actually a fraction less
valuable because you can just sub in a bowler or sub in a
batter, but just. Going to say, in the 100,
obviously the different playing conditions, the five balls, 10
balls, how do you code it differently?
Or have you noticed any different trends that in the 100
(44:37):
you're like, actually there's anadvantage to play at X bowling
10 balls in a row? Or are there anything sort of
nuances in the 100 that you've sort of noticed?
Yeah, well, there's a there's a few.
I mean, obviously the the bowling ten in a row thing is,
is is really interesting, particularly for new ball
bowlers who can swing the ball. And as we've seen in the 100 in
the last couple of years, bulls have been going around corners.
So it it weirdly the 100 when itinitially started you I think
(45:01):
the natural indication would be like it's probably going to be
favored more aggressive batters because it's 20 balls shorter
than the T20. But actually, the way that the
balls have behaved and the fact that you can bowl 10 balls in a
row. So in theory, you could bowl 20
of the 1st 25 balls of of a match in the 100.
If you're a swing bowler, can add a Milne or damn, damn
Worrell. Exactly.
(45:22):
You can you can take the 1st 20 of the 25 balls.
The ball is still hard and new and swinging.
And that's actually played a massive role in in the 100 in
the last few years. Actually, it's been and it's not
gone the way that you thought itmight go in that it was like,
oh, it's going to favor necessarily super aggressive
batters. You have to an extent got to
have a method to survive againstthat.
Some players just opt to try andhit the ball into the stands and
(45:43):
maybe the ball stop swinging. That's another way of going
about it. I mean you and Salty have formed
a pretty decent pair at the top for for Manchester.
It's just say, Brody, that probably wasn't on your agenda,
would it? If you're an opening bowler
trying to bowl 20 of the 1st 25 initially to.
Be honest with those without those balls.
Nip around with the big 100 stamp on.
It's quite a. Practical.
Come back. But.
Actually, you'd say data. Edgerton Park Crew Club.
(46:04):
Where I grew up, we had a river either end throughout hitting it
into the stands. Our data back then back in the
early 2000s was early doors. Hit the new ball into the river,
get it wet, and they had to bowlthe wet ball for 40 overs.
The same sort of theory used edge and park on a on a Saturday
afternoon. But yeah, I mean, it's been
bowler friendly to be honest with that.
(46:24):
New ball hasn't. It, it has I think like and
that's a bit of that. Swallow your price.
Sometimes as a batter you have to bat without ego and you say
initially you think it's 20 balls less.
I've got to go out and smack it.It's a short game, but that
might be the most vital time in the match where if you can, what
feels defensively but save wickets and then actually attack
the remaining 8080 balls of the the innings.
(46:50):
Freddie AI playing any? Yeah, it's beginning to.
So there's sort. Of there's, there are two areas
where it's contributing 1 is like I can, I'll increasingly
use AI for some of the more basic things that I do
day-to-day that just saves me time.
And you know, that might be something as simple as like what
is the average age of Oval Invincibles squad this year?
(47:10):
And I can just ask ChatGPT that and it will have the data
because it's got the squad on Cricinfo and it will tell me the
average age. And I'm pretty confident in the
findings of that rather than it might save me, you know, a few
minutes. It might only take me 3-4
minutes to do that manually, butit obviously takes 10 seconds to
do it with ChatGPT or with any other AI model.
So that that's like the low hanging fruit.
And then the again, going back to the data scientist that I've
(47:33):
mentioned earlier, I have conversations with guys who will
build models and a lot of them will be leaning on AI and
machine learning to sort of helpbuild the model.
So it is influencing cricket, often in ways that we can't yet
see, but it will influence the models that are built by data
scientists, which in turn influence the kind of players
that I suggest, which then hopefully contributes to squads
(47:54):
that are built. And therefore, you know, it is
influencing the game. I think it's influencing all
walks of life. But it's definitely the onus is
on the analyst, I think, to try and keep pace with that and make
sure that you are best utilizing, I think.
Absolutely. And thanks for joining us,
Freddie. I found that really interesting,
and hopefully our listeners and viewers will see what happens
off the field to help teams win.Yeah, Well, thanks a lot.
(48:15):
Thanks, Brody. Thank you.
Thanks to our partner. Sage and like.
Follow and subscribe. Anywhere you get your favorite
podcast, we're back on Tuesday.
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