September 28, 2025 • 50 mins
England’s managing director Rob Key takes us behind the curtain as he plots England’s attempt to win back the Ashes down under.
Key talks to Jos and Broady about selecting England’s Ashes squad and how the players will be managed to give them the best chance of upsetting Australia.
He talks about playing poker with Shane Warne and the crucial influence of the great Australian spinner on England’s aggressive playing style.
Key urges his England players to “be smart” off the pitch in Australia and explains why he’s so excited by the “generational talent” of batter Jacob Bethell.
🩸 Use code LOVEOFCRICKET to get 20% off your first Thriva blood test: http://thriva.co/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I hope they're all listening to this, the players, because it's
saved me sending a WhatsApp. You got to be smart because when
they get there, they're not going to be anonymous.
We got in a culture of play, 2 games dropped, but I got the
sense you came in Baz. Certainly when you're my
players. Doesn't matter whether you
succeed or fail, as long as you're doing it to the style and
identity that's fine. Ducky is like a hand grenade in
the media. When he gets asked the gotcha
(00:21):
question he just blurts out we'll chase more the merrier you
know. Don't just get 300, get 7000
more chases. Right.
This thing came out when are yougoing to declare BFK?
Which he called me which meant big fat keys.
But when he got asked that on Sky he'd go oh he sort of get a
bit nervous. Go big friendly keys.
(00:49):
I'm delighted to say we're joined by England MD Rob Key.
As serious as ever. Good to have you, Kizi.
Thanks for coming on Can. You take us into that selection
room where you're trying to identify these players.
So it starts before that from going into the room, So you see,
So we have a whole network now, whether it's scouts now, the
(01:11):
analytics that you get. So we track every single ball
that happens for fast bowlers, anything.
You can see the swing, you can see how much they move, it
released all that stuff and whatthe data does and what the
analytics and the scouting does.It narrows the playing field.
So you start zoning in on the players that you really like.
So Ben Duckett for example, slightly different.
(01:31):
I played against Duckett, he got2 hundreds against us and I
remember being captain and just thinking why every he's just, he
got 2 hundreds and we couldn't bowl a dot ball at him and I'm
like what is going on? You know, what sort of rubbish
are our bowlers bowling? I was a captain that didn't
think Bowler should bowl back, which you would have hated.
But every ball is like, and I'm thinking this bloke without even
(01:54):
breaking sweat is putting us under pressure.
And that's the thing. And you just see something, I
don't know what it is. I don't think it ever takes
long. Like there's there's a few
things that just catch your eye and it does it take wheat Baz
and I reckon it's about 40 seconds worth where you get
these clips and you get the highlights right, which is
important. And what you see is the players
(02:15):
best. The game is about your best
cricket, not your worst. We are very good at sort of
going, yeah, but he does this and he does that go No, no,
What's he's good about? Someone who pulls length or back
of a length crazy in front of square.
And has that that illusion of time, which I think comes from a
simplicity of technique and all of that.
If you've got loads of moving parts and your head's doing all
of this stuff, you you're not. I was like that as a player,
(02:39):
you're not going to be consistent because there's too
much to go wrong. So you see that and you're just
like, what, here we go, this looks something special.
That's what we saw with like Bashir and just a few clips of
him bowling and then what we do and we, we've been our own
victims of this really. Because then we talk about the
WhatsApp group and we just put things on there.
(03:01):
But you take Bashir, he then goes to Abu Dhabi to the Lions,
where it's like The Apprentice where there's six of the best
spinners in the country. We think that we're looking to
select for India. And they have a month in the
Lions practicing out in Abu Dhabi with Graham Swan, Andrew
Flintoff's there, and we're judging them all the time.
So it's a little bit more than just the clips.
(03:22):
That's the bit that we go, whoa,here we go, there's something
special here. Then we explore.
So how does that go? Telling people they're picked or
not making it or it must be a great phone call to make.
Who gets the honor of doing that?
Well, Baz does that. When I started, I did all the
negative calls and then it became clear that if I if every
time I rang someone, they start,you know, I think this isn't
going to be great news. So then as it's evolved, Baz
(03:45):
basically does the important calls.
So good or bad? So if you're being left out, if
it's a contentious one, he'll dothat.
And generally I think we will. Jax.
I said, how was Jax? Jaxy?
I spoke to him after. So alright mate, well done.
How was it and all of that. And he's like, yeah, Bass sort
of spoke to me for a minute and then said, oh, by the way,
you're going to the ashes. Oh, right.
(04:07):
And then there's not much else, you know, like the same thing.
So he does it. And then we're a bit like, look,
if you. Because when you leave players
out, I think is the other thing,you know, when you end up
leaving a player, they often don't hear what you're saying
because it's not the time then to go into reasons why and all
of that. So what we do is they say, look,
you know, I'm happy to speak to you at any stage.
(04:29):
Just let me know, you know, if you need me or Luke Wright or
Baz or whatever. So someone like Sam Curran, who
we left out, you know, it's likeI've met up with him.
He said, right, can we go and have a coffee, tea?
And you know, there's only so much you can say like keep
getting runs mate or whatever. But Baz went and he just went
about his business. He sought out the information he
needed. He's gone about his business.
(04:50):
He's now made his way back. So that's generally how we do
it. I mean, a lot of the actual
selections are done with probably about you have Baz
Stokes, he medical people, performance director, you know,
a few others that are all inputting into it.
But a lot of that's been done before.
So at the day of selection is a bit more of like we have debated
(05:13):
this now for the last month where all the analytics,
everything else. When you have the actual
selection, it's sort of pretty simple.
It's just like right, bang stoke, I'll start and I'll say
right stoke seat #1 #2 you know,and you go down there, any
disagreements? No, right, let's move on.
Do. You call every player.
We call every player. This time it was really fiddly.
(05:35):
So Baz normally does it and obviously he's in New Zealand at
the moment. So this time though, because we
were picking 3 squads it it was a little bit like right and
trying to remember who's where. And then you've got the players
that you're sending out to New Zealand.
So it was fiddly this time because you've got so many
players that you're doing, but Baz will generally be the one to
(05:56):
call everyone and then we're there if anyone wants any more.
Pick up the phone and we'll do whatever you need, you know, but
pick up the phone. A lot of people obviously talk
about Baz and Stokes and their style and they're very much more
on camera than you are. But a lot of the stuff you're
talking about and you put those guys in place.
What's your view and your philosophy?
(06:18):
So my thing wasn't about right and this doesn't mean it's not
important. Wasn't about right.
How are we going to win this series?
How are we going to win that series?
My thing was like, I think English culture, English sport,
English cricket in particular, has been far too reserved, far
too conservative. Now people might disagree with
that and that's fine. I'm talking about the mentality.
(06:39):
And so I wanted people that could come in and I wanted a
coach that was going to free people up, let them take the
aggressive option, let them go out there and see the
opportunity. There's a lack of optimism at
times with English cricket, you know, we're very good at
pointing out all the problems and not the solutions.
So that's where then on that sort of seed, that's where Baz
(07:00):
came into it because he was aligned to that Stokes, he was
the same where it's like, right,you know, we want people to play
a more aggressive form of cricket.
We want players, we want, I wantcoaches and captains that take
pressure off the players in thatregard.
And the Test team was right for that because it had a tough
time. So that was the thing.
But when I look back, I think soI look back to some of the big
(07:22):
influences in my career. So I was never a great player.
I played a little bit for England, but I was probably in
one of the greatest times of eras of county cricket.
So the people that when I was, you know, all your great
influences, I don't know about you 2, but generally when you
look back there when you were 20/21/22, when you're younger
(07:42):
and when you get older you become more cynical, you think
you know everything, right? So I was so lucky.
We had Raul Dravid at Kent, we had Shane Warne who then played
for Hampshire and I got to know through playing poker.
And there was that great Australian era that came into
cricket then when so many, whether it was Strauss, Vaughan,
all of that, this came into our game and the way they thought
(08:06):
was sort of really infectious into how you thought as a player
and it shaped the way that I didit really and the my views on
the game. And when you look then Baz was
the same because he, when he wasat that age, I think he went out
to Sydney and spent six months in Sydney with Steve War and
those guys training with NSW because Lisa's wife is an
(08:28):
Australian from Sydney. So that was the influences that
came in. But the biggest one really was
Warney and how he did it. How did you end up playing poker
with Shame on? So if you you 2 might be too
young. So there was a craze of Texas
holdem. So everyone was playing Texas
holdem was the game. It was you had online poker and
Warney was like the biggest kid,the biggest cricket Nuffy as
(08:52):
well. So we would play against him.
And in that we would then have like these massive sets of poker
chips. There was a few of us in the
Kent team. There was masquerading as
Warren, Sean Irvine in the Hampshire side.
And so if it rained, we'd all run off Warren.
He would sledge us and everything and then we'd run off
and we'd go and play poker. And in that you would just like
(09:15):
like exactly the same thing you're sitting round.
I'm saying like what, how do youset a field for like that
reverse hit that people had started to play and you'd be
like, mate, you just bowl of pieas far as slow as you can
outside of stunning and just youknow, they spoon it in the air.
You know, all right, all right, what's your view on you know,
what about? But I said, mate, you can have
every you can have every man on the boundary, but it's always
(09:36):
how you getting people out, how you getting people out.
So then it starts to do it. We would he would play in a game
against Kent. I remember it at Canterbury and
you know, he was a smoker, stufflike that, Like I was then.
It was the only good thing that came out of smoking was me
speaking to him. Biggest regret of my life doing
that. And I remember we're sort of
(09:57):
like 400 going into tea on the on the on the sort of
penultimate day, on the third day.
And he's a bit like, when are you going to declare BFK?
Which he called me, which meant big fat keys, right?
But when he got asked that on Sky, he'd go, oh, he'd sort of
get a bit nervous, go big friendly keys and he's like,
(10:18):
he's going to be mate, how safe are you?
You know, how many runs do you need?
You know what? You know how many is enough?
When you're going to declare? It's like negative.
And he would bowl balls. And if you remember Canterbury,
he would shout abuse at me, bowla ball and I wouldn't declare.
And he's like declare keys he awake and all this and he's no
and I could just hear him, you know, like every he's just
(10:39):
looking up doing. This.
You're in the, you're in the changing.
Room I'm in the changing room laughing because he's now become
a mate and he's sort of like just and he's a bit ruder than
that. But I can't even that.
I can't go into what he's calling me.
And he loved cricket like and heloved aggressive attacking
cricket. And I never.
And, and so anyway, we come in, we end up not declaring.
We get like 500. I'm like, oh, I can keep the
(11:00):
field in and and afterwards we're sitting round at the end
and he's like, mate, what's that?
You know, 550 in a day and a half.
You know what's going on. And he's like you got to he's
got you got to be prepared to lose, to win.
And I'm sort of at this stage. So I would argue with him.
I'd go yeah, but it's different for you.
No, it's not. My teams believe we can bowl
(11:20):
anyone out. My teams, we we'd we'd set you
220 and we'd bowled you out. I said, yeah, that's fine for
you, mate. You're the greatest bowler of
all time. I've got treaders like lobbing
them up. You know, it's not quite he's a
good bowler. He's a very good bowler.
Not Shane Warne though, Tready right.
But it was all of that. It was so infectious.
Then when you would play the fields, he would say I could
(11:41):
watch him set a field almost because he captained a lot like
Stokes and he just believed so if you were so he would set mats
he had masquerading as bowling, literally 68 mile an hour, just
straight on a length. Couldn't do anything else.
He'd have slipped around here. He'd have short leg, he'd have
silly point and you you made youfeel like this bloke's bowling.
(12:01):
Absolute hand grenades you sort of and every time you go on and
he'd go Jesus, BFK what the and you're like.
Oh my God. It's like I just want and if you
when he let go of the boy, I can't remember you would have
played it. Do you play Warnie?
This thing came out like and andif you played like what the best
(12:22):
4 defensive, he'd make you feel like you'd played the worst shot
ever. He'd just stand in the middle of
the pitch and all sorts, wouldn't he?
Just, he had a theatre about himthat just he was dominating at
any stage. His influence is quite
interesting actually. I'm sure he's influenced
virtually every cricketer that'splaying the game now.
But our group in 2023, Ashes, ifyou remember, Pat Cummings runs
(12:42):
in first of all the Ashes, Zach Crawley, it's one of the
greatest shots to actually cover4.
But they had two slips and a gully and a deep point.
And in our changing room everyone was going.
Could you imagine if Shane Warnewas on commentary now, even
before a Bulls bowl and he'd become ballistic?
He'd hate this. It's like the least Australian
thing in the world. So the influence of his
attacking psychology was in our change room, I think.
(13:05):
He had the best cricket brain. So things like, and this is what
gets the people, I think sort ofmisunderstand at times because
Ducky is like a hand grenade in the media.
When he gets asked the gotcha question he just blurts out
we'll chase more the merrier. You know, don't just get 300,
get 7000. More chases, right?
And he he doesn't mean that, butthe point.
(13:25):
And this is where Warney always remember, you know, if you he
would say, and I used to think this, you know, if it's the last
day and you've got to bat out the day, you know, you might
need three 5400. He'd be like, we're going from
that doesn't mean you're slogging from ball one, but just
that alone you. I think you've got more chance
of surviving the day because you're still your brain.
(13:46):
Just the whole point for me, my biggest belief is that your
brain works better when you're thinking positively.
So the whole point is like you defend better when you're being
positive doesn't mean go out there and go and you've got a
slog. And what we don't want is
players that positive cricket tothem means running down the deck
every ball and putting your riskat 100%.
(14:07):
It's like, can you put have you got the talent, which he's one
of the best in the world ever atof putting the bowlers best ball
under pressure. That is the reason why live
sport, Test cricket, cricket, anything because it's it puts
all the fans in that place whereyou don't know what's going to
happen where you're thinking like that.
I hated part of that India series at Lords when we couldn't
(14:31):
get those wickets and everyone. How good, how good is this?
This is horrendous. I feel sick.
You know you're a. Bit of a nervous what?
Like during the Ashes 23, you'd often you'd watch all day, but
you'd be in an office somewhere so you're a bit of a nervous.
Watch No, I try and portray thatI'm not a nervous watcher, but I
think everyone is. They're just better at hiding
it. So you sit there no one's like
(14:51):
when when you can't get what we're going on.
Oh, this is fine. But I think inside the the big
thing is it's like, you know, the coaches that that blow up
all the time. We all do that in our heads.
I think, you know, you'd have done it as a captain, you as a
player. And you're, and especially in
that environment, you, you try and hide it a bit, don't you,
Because you don't want, if he's got a bat next, the last thing
(15:12):
he wants is someone going, what's that about?
What are you doing? And that's like all the games we
play with ourselves. And the best people are better
at hiding those insecurities andworry than others, really.
That's your advice to me was wear sunglasses.
This is like your eyes look likeyou want to kill something.
Look and smile more. Practice smiling.
(15:33):
Practice smile. That was Baz and Kezi was like,
whatever you do, wear sunglassesbecause you just look like the
whole world. It's against us.
Everything is going wrong. But I, I completely understand
that thing is, and it's like, say those tricks of the mind.
It's like the image Baz portrayson the on the balcony as one of
control, but you know, behind those sunglasses, he knows
what's going on. But it's some it's a great way
(15:56):
for, I think the way you have changed cricket or whatever,
like you say, come in and have skin in the game and see the
upside, which is brilliant because it is untraditional for
English people to see that. And and obviously in this squad
that we've got, there's a lot ofpeople with upside.
There's like you say, those selections that are off the not
(16:16):
off the cuff. I mean, sorry, what's the best
place to describe by surprise? But like then when you think
about it, you're like, OK, actually it makes sense.
I see the idea Ashes Cricket always seems to be the thing
that's dominated. I don't know the narrative
around like at what point are you starting sort of try and
formulate the squad and the sidefor this series?
(16:38):
So you come in what, 3 1/2 yearsago did you almost look out
right this? That could be the time when I
want, you know, to go and do something incredibly special in
Australia and we'll we'll start moulding something that is
aside. This wants to win along the way,
but is this team that will give us the best chance in Australia.
Yeah, I think there's an elementof short term and an element of
(17:01):
long term. So, So what we tried to do with
the bowling has pretty much beenbecause him and Jimmy were
coming towards the end, you know, like you had to then
reinvigorate the bowling attack.You had no choice.
So at the start it was we had, you know, remember those loads
of injuries you and Jimmy had been dropped or left out,
whatever it was, But you know, and the the bowling was very
(17:22):
experienced, but the batting wasn't.
So it's like right first year, let's get the batting right.
Let's give them confidence. There's so much talent in that
set up. Johnny Best are all these guys
you know that that you just feltthat had been a little bit
stifled for lots of different. Reasons.
Well you gave them a run first of all.
Like we got in a culture of play. 2 games dropped play, you
know, I think it was 54 players were used in 16 tests or
(17:46):
something insane like that for different reasons, but I got the
sense you came in Baz. Certainly when you're my
players, you're playing speech end of the summer type thing.
It was like, you're going to go.And that's why I'm Baz when I
saw him on here. That's a big thing because it's
very hard to get that get players if they've got to take
high risk and got to play an aggressive game.
(18:06):
If the first thing you do is drop them, it doesn't work.
So I, and I've been thinking about this for a while, like the
MO that the thing that they do. And I saw a clip that from where
you were saying from last week, actually the thing that they do
really well. So when you've got your style
and I which might be to play aggressively might be to take
risk at the first sign of trouble, how you deal with that
(18:29):
is really important. So for example, you said the
Phil Salt story. I think that is some of the most
powerful bits of, you know, getting the best out of players
is when they fail, playing the style that you want, which is
aggressive, you praise them. So you actually make a point of
saying like didn't work this time, but you keep going like
(18:50):
that. He did it with Duckett, got out
first ball in the second inningsof Pakistan 2-3 years ago.
Duckett, he just went, well, I'mrooty, well done.
I think whoever got runs and Pope or whatever and he went
Ducky, that's your shot, Never put it away.
You'll get a lot of runs with that moved on.
And that is like, wow. And I think that's one of the
most important traits that they have.
(19:11):
And that's what they do so well.They give backing to players.
Yeah, you know, that allows you to fail.
You know, as long as you're doing, it doesn't matter whether
you succeed or fail, as long as you're doing it to the style and
identity, that's fine. You'll be backed.
If you go away from that, then you might find yourself out of
that. But you're picking on on
character and obviously backing players.
But going to Australia, have youhad in the back of your mind?
(19:35):
OK, well, Beth as a good player,the short ball so Australia
might suit him or Josh Tung getscan expose a slightly fuller
length, gets movement but has a high pace, slightly the wrong
side of it. Quite an awkward face will suit
Australia still building a squad16. 16 man squad, yeah, with the
with the whole line. So it's like a nearly a 40 man
squad. Yeah, you're still building a a
(19:58):
squad based on players that you think can succeed in Australia.
Yeah, for that we are. And like we take a different
squad to India, we'd have more spin, all of that, the makeup.
But generally the thought is, isthe, you know, that's, that is
what's required to succeed at international level.
That's, that's the make up. Same with white ball as well,
where these are just the bowlers.
(20:19):
When you look at the best bowlers, people, you know,
forget that for most of your career you were 85 plus and you
had skill and you had really allthat stuff.
That is what's required to be really successful at
international cricket. And then you need to build a
team that has the different versions of that.
So it might be Mark Wood, short Skiddy, 92 mile an hour, Joffra,
(20:42):
you know, who has a bit of everything.
Then you might have someone likeMatt Potts who can bowl that
little bit fuller and for different conditions.
But that I think it's not as simple as saying we've just done
everything for Australia. This is where we think the next
year of English cricket needs togo across all formats, you know,
rather. So we need a left armor.
See, we're trying to invest in Josh Hull, who might be two or
(21:05):
three years away, but you're just trying to build something
that's going to sustain itself for a long period of time.
And hopefully along the way thathelps you win the Ashes, that
then helps you win in India, helps you win at all these
different places. And that's more the the theory
than just right. We, we're all on it's chips all
(21:26):
in the middle for the Ashes. It might be for everyone else,
but for us it's not been about that.
It's been, this is what we think.
It's going to take us forward. This episode is sponsored by
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code Love of Cricket. I'm all over this one Jose, When
(21:47):
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You're never too young to look after yourself and stay in
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(22:09):
Well, I know I'm getting to thatage as but no, actually
genuinely, I think it'd be really interested to do it.
I've never done a blood test like this.
I'm intrigued to see you know your markers and get proper live
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Yeah, it's super easy. It doesn't even hurt.
(22:30):
You just send off your sample tothrive and you get a detailed
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first blood test. Offspin seems to be the thing,
(22:52):
so say, Will Jacks is probably the only name when you look down
that list of 16 guys that you think, oh, that's a surprise
pick or something. What's it about Jack C?
Why? And Bashir, what's the thing
about Ospin you feel? Is it just the same thing about
Australian conditions? Nathan Lyon's been so good for
so long. Yeah, Nathan Lyon sort of skews
(23:12):
a bit of the the data and analysts, but I think that's it.
We think Bashir, you know, he gets a bit of stick, but he's
got 60 wickets in what, 17 games, something like that.
He's 21. He'll get better and better.
So we invest in that. You feel that those conditions
out there, that bit of over spin, the height, the bounce,
(23:33):
that that's going to be helpful.You might have stocks,
footmarks, all of that type of stuff.
He's a wicket taker. You know, you are going to need
a spinner, we think to be able to just make sure that, you
know, when it gets really hot, as you'll know, you might need
someone just to rest people up alittle bit, you know, be able to
just set the feel back. They might not be.
(23:53):
That's Shane Warne's great, one of these greatest skills,
whether he could bowl in the first innings.
He could bowl 1520 plus overs going at 2 1/2 and over.
Now the game has evolved. That might not be possible for a
spinner. But that's the thinking that
actually the, And it might change because they might do
what Pakistan did and put the industrial blowers on the pitch
(24:15):
and play on the same pitch over and over again, you know, But
the thinking is that the series isn't going to be defined by the
spinner, you know, but the spinner has a really big role to
make sure the seamers can do it.And when you look in years gone
by, it's actually the batting that you know, you've got to get
runs. You've got, if you look at where
Australia's batting's been in England, in Australia, it's like
(24:38):
that. Ponting said to me when we won
in 2010, eleven, our average partnership was over 50 and
since then it's been like 20. That's big difference shows like
runs and there's loads of reasons for that, isn't there?
It's because you've been in the field a long time, you can't get
wicket so you're tired and the Aussies have got an incredible
bowling lineup that are relentless.
But you'd run. You do need runs on the board
(25:01):
like 270. There isn't, doesn't necessarily
cut. Although what I would say is the
pitchers have tweaked a little bit since Pat Cummings has come
in as as captain. You know, they're, they're a bit
more bolder friendly, aren't they?
Well, Melbourne you did you playMelbourne last time?
Wasn't that? That looked like one of the
toughest. That did the most.
That did the most or second mostsince Hawkeye data was collected
(25:22):
I think since 2005. It like seamed and bounced and
nipped and nipped. The most great pitch to run
drinks on, actually. Did you not play?
That one? Didn't.
Play that one. It was.
It was null and void though. He wasn't that.
Yeah, I think that particular test was null and void, I think.
That was Scott Bollen building astatue.
That was statue. 6. 9. But how much do you look at
(25:48):
Australia? Everything you talk about is
very much about when you took the job.
When you're looking at that job,it was restructuring, restyling
English cricket, but you're playing top flight international
sport, every sport in the world look at the opposition in some
way, shape or form. Do you have scouts?
Do you are you watching what's going on there?
Do you have analysts in bunkers doing all the numbers on, you
(26:10):
know, like collage and nicking off from full of a lengthy all
that sort of stuff? Or do you go and say we're
building this with our England team, We go and play our best
cricket wherever in the world and we we can win?
We do a little bit of everythinglike we have on the board of
Gavaskar series, which is the most recent one probably that's
been out there. We we have a whole load of
(26:31):
analytics that's gone into what happened in that series, stuff
like that. So it's a mixture, but all of
that stuff really, you know, andyou've got to remember Basin
Stokesy in particular, the two of those, they've got a they're,
they're, they're not far off where the analysts come out as
well because they've got good cricket brains.
So they don't need like a bit like someone said about Dhoni,
(26:53):
he sort of does everything an analyst would say anyway, and
the same thing, you know, So they're a little bit like their
intuition is very much aligned to what the data would say
anyway. And that comes a bit more so.
So, I mean, you guys probably know more about it because I'm
not in the dressing room. We try and create a world where
players take responsibility themselves.
(27:14):
I, you know, I have an issue with the way we coach kids.
I think we tell them what to do all the time.
Drives me mad. So you create players and young
adults that can't think for themselves.
You know, it's a different rant.I could go on, but you'll know
you want to go out there and be successful.
You get what you need. So if you need all the, if you
want to know how someone's playing, what their weaknesses
(27:35):
are, what their stats are, you can get that.
But that's down to you. It's not like sit down and go,
you know, How many meetings do you reckon you saw and that time
you were playing, how many meetings did you have where you
just went through the opposition?
Of thousands. How did you?
Well, not with bats, no, not with bats, Not none.
I think with bats and Stokes, because it was that mindset of,
(27:56):
you know, we've all sat through bowlers meetings over the years.
Top of off, occasional bouncer. Yeah, next.
I think top of off, occasional bouncer, but you could drag him
across a bit. Yeah, OK, right.
Next, maybe top of off, but occasionally and ultimately for
me, the the skill of bowling is you have.
I wanted that information. I needed that information, but
we had an app at the time where you could go and check out any
(28:18):
player in the world, see where they get out, see where they hit
fours and sixes. I wanted a, in the back of my
brain, a bit of info, but the art of bowling.
When you're playing for EdgertonPark Crew Club or like
Leicester, you don't have information of how to get this
batter out. You feel the pitch, you feel
what that batter's triggering that day.
Some days Steve Smith might walkout and be trigging more than he
(28:41):
was last week, so he's more of an LBW candidate or something.
You feel the game out there and expose that pitch with the ball
you've got in your hand at the time that bat was batting.
I like to have the info of what was coming, but they are bowling
is not going, not needing Ben Stokes to go.
So this guy bit Fuller, nip it back top of off with LBW.
(29:01):
You should know that, but is he an LBW candidate today or
actually is he really nervous and he's going to drive at 1:00
early, so float one outside off stump swinging fuller.
You know, that's cricket, isn't it?
That's what you would do with white ball batting anyway, isn't
it? Which is this is the point that
I think we we go very technical.Not saying it's not important,
but I don't think you play the game from a technical point of
(29:24):
view. You're thinking about you versus
the opposition in the. Bowl.
What he's saying is technically you're horrendous, but.
You're really good, which is true as well.
No, I think for sort of my own game and for everyone's game,
it's actually we try and dumb cricketers down sometimes I
think the world's gone a bit data heavy and like the football
expected goals or whatever. And then you get Roy Keane
actually at the end just say, well, it was one nil.
It doesn't matter how many shotsyou had or your XGS 3.
(29:46):
It's that's the actual result. But you know, Brodie doesn't
need a whole data sheet on how to bowl.
He's bold for 25 years. He knows it and he a lot of it.
I find there's those little things about you might walk out
to the pitch on a day and I always find I want to walk on
the pitch to feel it with my spikes.
And if it's rock hard, you thinkit's might play like this.
(30:07):
So if your spikes go in a bit, it might be like this for the
bowlers. You're probably that on this
pitch very quickly in 3 or 4 balls, you and Jimmy.
That's why I. Scratched the bowlers.
I scratched my front foot landing because I could
immediately tell if there's moisture or.
Not but that's like this is the length on this wicket or this is
going to work today or it's not swinging as much as we expected.
So you've got to adapt. And I think you're trying to
(30:28):
from listening to you about dataand then you're trying to match
up the intuition, aren't you? And say, is the data telling us
something completely opposite towhat we're seeing with our own
eyes? And it's probably challenging
that, but that'd be the same because it's all about gameplay,
isn't it? And when you're talking about
Warney, I think that's, you know, some of the best things
that we can hear the aura of theguy and how he bowled, how he
(30:48):
made you feel. There's nothing on a sheet of
paper that will tell you or theyprobably did this actually with
Warney. Shane Warne will make you feel 1
foot tall like you've never played the game before, like how
you're going to deal with that. But that was all part of it.
That's all part of the gameplay of, you know, moving around your
crease to create an illusion of something or you might move a
fielder just to create an illusion that this ball is
(31:10):
coming. There's you need that live
cricket and that live knowledge,that live intuition and feel.
And I think that's where you've got some really good people that
you've got. You might not always agree, but
you're quite aligned on this is how it is and what I I'm just
saying this as a fan. Obviously you're the boss and I,
(31:30):
you know he's your boss. Yeah, you're not playing
anymore. I don't care.
But he's your boss still. But what?
By the way, he was a trickier. Don't.
Worry. About it Sneaky is what you.
But like, and having done a bit of leadership, it's like you,
you need that alignment. I know there's a lot of let's
have diversity of thinking and but if you're all on different
pages, you never do anything andyou just get stuck.
(31:52):
And I felt I did that sometimes with my own leadership was like,
I was trying to think about this, trying to do that.
And I never really stuck myself on the mark and said this is
what we'll do. And I probably got put off like
way off course by that World Cupin India.
That was was really difficult. But that's what I like about the
group. You've got you Baz Stokesy, even
Fred probably in the alliance. That's an important person for
(32:16):
you to have that continuity and alignment of way of thinking for
the next people coming in as well.
Yeah, and the, the test team andthe whiteboard team, which
you're seeing now is very much about right.
Josh Barley, you know what you need.
We'll just try and provide it for you.
But you have, there's an elementwhere you have to ask it.
When you get down to the lines, you've got to be a bit more
prescriptive with the young. You might have a 1718 year old,
(32:37):
so you've got to be a bit more prescriptive.
But I, I sent a thing. There's Mike Hussey tells a
great story about Warren again, where sound like 1 trick pony
where everything comes from him.But and this is the difference.
So I think that at times we're creating a system where people
think the answer is about right,where's my head going where's
and that is important. All of that right?
(32:58):
But there's a great story. I think Mike Hussey on his debut
and you did this. I think one of the masters at
it. You know, it's that
gamesmanship, you versus the batter.
And I think this is like the absolute gold standard of how
you should think and stuff. So Mike Hussey's a short leg.
I think Sarwan's batting and warn is like he's Boulder boys
(33:19):
like Ricky come in a extra coveron the drive.
He's going to get you caught there.
He's coming to you Ricky. And he'd come back, bowls
another ball and he's like Ricky, one more step closer, one
more. There's no like, where's my hand
and all of that. It's like Ricky, one more step
closer. Just come in here.
He's going to chip one to you. Get ready there Ricky, it's
coming to you. Another slobber 1 like this
Ricky one, just one more closer.And as he walks past the the
(33:42):
umpire, Hussey reckons he go. He turns around and goes fifth
ball LBW. So everything is like the
gamesmanship into making you think something else.
But it's him versus Sarwan and everything is focused on that.
So his line is a given, his length is a given, what he's
doing with his action is a given.
And that's the game. That's how we've got to think
(34:02):
with stuff. And I don't think you know,
fifth ball LBW nearly gets him. But that's what the great
players do. That's what you know, like
there's an element where we think, you know, if you're you
don't want to be stupid with stuff, you know, if you're
trying to you got a left arm seamer in white ball cricket
going across you every ball witha bit of bounce and you're
trying to hoik him over there. And that's just stupid at times,
(34:22):
you know. So it's you versus the bowler.
What's your plan, how you do it?That's what we've got.
That's what our young players need to they need to be thinking
like that, not where's my backliff coming from, you know,
give them good fundamentals and just let them play you versus
the opposition. I did.
There was a moment, Marnus Labouchain, bit of an
(34:44):
overthinker as a #3 and I knew he was under a bit of pressure.
So I knew Ed Baston was a noisy ground.
The crowd love it and he'd be coming in after we just got one
wicket. So I knew they'd be up and I
predetermined if I was bowling at him, I'd wait.
So he'd be take he'd take middle, not good for the over 8,
but he'd take middle. But I wanted him to have time to
(35:07):
think and sometimes you don't you sometimes you want to rush
because you want players not to have time to settle, but I
wanted him to have time to. OK, what's coming here?
Pre series mentioned about like a nonsense away swinger, just
like, you know, like Ellen McGraw used to go 5 Nils, all
sorts of rub it and I just waited and you could hear the
crowd go and then they stopped and he's still like fidgeting,
(35:28):
fidgeting. And as I was running in the
crowd had been waiting for that like 3 minutes and they were
going berserk. And I've had it before in a bad
way. You you concentrate on something
else. You think about the crowd and
luckily he nicked that one. You could have easily played
miss or whatever, but that's thegamesmanship of I knew that
Marnison overthink us and make him wait, make him think, make
(35:49):
him like take time to get into the game, overthink what's
coming his way. And you know, Baz encourages
that sort of thing, doesn't he is is very much on play the game
that is right in front of you right now.
You know, like figure out how you best can expose something in
that game, not what's your frontarm do.
And that there, you know, that'swhy you've been one of our
(36:11):
greatest bowlers because you know, there's people who could
bowl as quick as you. There's people probably you were
a little bit collapsed or whatever it was and all of that.
And you risked at times would dothat, be one of our best ever
bowlers. You know, you and Jimmy,
probably the best bowlers we've ever had, not because of the
attributes you had, because of the way you're able to think
about the game and get in the contest and all that.
(36:32):
Obviously a huge amount of talent.
But that's where and the problemcomes.
If you get so structured and everyone's having one to one
coaching and parents are paying £50 an hour for someone to tell
them just, you know, tweet, tinker with their technique, you
got to play the game. You know, that's what I didn't
do. I spent, you know, most of the
things I do is because of what Imucked up at, right?
Get obsessed with my bat lift and my stance and all this stuff
(36:54):
and you want people, the best players as you two were and are.
You're just playing the game against the opposition.
You have moments where you're winding up and thinking about
where's this and that. But generally in the heat of
battle, you're like, watch the ball play against the
opposition. When you have those moments of
everything, you don't play well though, as soon as you're
thinking about where your shoulders are.
Oh no, that's why I'm shaking itall the time.
(37:16):
But what sort of things important for you like when you
are there in the during the Ashes?
So I know you're around a bit, aren't you in the summer and you
might be watching in the backroom, but you say you're
going to be there in Australia for the whole time.
What do you how does that kind of work throughout the series?
Or you'll just see how what it'slike when.
You get there. The only thing I found was you
(37:36):
would have seen in the white board, like there's no way to
sit in the away grounds and stuff and I prefer watching on
TV. For me, I'm there to support
now, so we've done all this work.
The 11:00 will be picked, you know, we'll all have an input
into it, but Stokes and Baz willdo that.
He's for them to really have their, you know, to get for
Stokes in particular to go out on the field with the team he's
(37:57):
happiest with because he's the one, the captain in cricket.
Has not always been the way has it.
It's not always been the case that.
Well, I wouldn't. I couldn't speak in the past,
but yeah, I'd imagine. That with Baz and Stokes, it
has, yeah. You know, because they're the
ones that have got to, you know,you know, they're Stokes is the
one you're bowling now you're doing this.
He needs to know he's got the resource.
We've got to help him as much aswe can.
(38:18):
And then it's like there there'sno doubt that when we get what
they, they've got to be smart, right?
And I'm, I hope they're all listening to this, the players,
because it's saved me sending a WhatsApp or an e-mail and
telling them like, you've got tobe smart because when they get
there, they're not going to be anonymous.
So I remember in 2003, NASA doing the first press conference
saying like, we got to catch allour catches, you know, shock,
(38:41):
but we've got to catch all our catches.
You know, we can't afford to be making having to make 1520
opportunities and innings, whichis absolutely right.
The next day at practice, the Western Australian or after
practice, they had picture, I think it was John Crawley
dropping a catch. You know, so they're just going
to come for and that's fine. So our players on camera need to
(39:04):
be smart and not get caught doing stupid things and just be
aware that this is going to be one of the potentially one of
the best series of all time, going to be compelling viewing
and with that comes an interest that is great for the.
Don't ruin it before a ball's bowled Type 5.
Where was it Johnny had Johnny had a head butt of someone,
didn't they? Where was that?
That got released two days into the first Test match.
(39:26):
There's always something in there.
But that'd be a good balance though, isn't it?
For this, because it's an important part of this whole
side and the culture is to enjoythe country and to do things and
but like you say, he's given your your word.
Don't. You worry about that the.
Photographer in the first the. First off the tee, England
duffs. And you'll have Brody there
(39:49):
riling it up for. Everyone in the country, yeah.
We we landed in 2010 and Strauss, we went to a golf
course the day after landing andStrauss at the first tee shop
and it was maybe like a race dayat Flemington or something.
So everyone at this Golf Club was on the lash.
They all surrounded the first tee to watch everyone tee off.
So I'm like nervous of. Shit, did you put the club down
(40:10):
to see? What, you and Straussy?
It's his first one. Like left a bit immediately.
That's the only fucking hundred you're getting.
On his trip, Strauss. Immediately straight in back and
we loved it. We were like laughing and
cheering and like joining in with the heckling.
But you know, you just got to you got to enjoy that.
You got to buy into it, but you have to be very aware, like.
He's a bit Ryder Cup like, isn'tthere?
(40:31):
So like you've got to try and you don't want to let them get
on top or give them an in or like.
So I remember you'd get in a taxi, wouldn't you, or something
like that? And we were getting hammered,
like we were just getting, we were getting smashed and blokes
would look at you and they'd go,Gee, we just want a game, mate.
Any chance you could just give us a game?
You know, we, we, we want a contest, you know, like shut up,
mate, We're better than you, youknow, like, but they're
(40:51):
everyone. But all of that I think is great
for I, I don't know, you boys would know more.
I didn't really I used to think this when we were when I was
doing sky, all that stuff is like whatever, you know,
somewhat we had the great I loved him Bob Willis in the day
just saying like key rubbish andall that, you know, whatever.
I think it's much worse now for the like the forensic analysis
(41:15):
of your game. You know, where someone you're
we we'd be on the car literally be out to bat and there'd be
NASA or whoever myself, you know, and you're like getting
into the absolute detail of whatyou're doing wrong.
I think that's the stuff that you guys have to deal with.
There's actually much tougher than someone just saying you're
rubbish. Yeah, you have to try.
(41:35):
I think just try and avoid that really, because if you're, if
you're relying love NASA, but ifyou're relying on you or NASA or
someone on telly to give you technical advice, you get it
wrong, aren't you? As a player, if you're playing
for England and you're relying on.
I don't think. Anyone to tell you what but I?
Don't think anyone is, but the that's why I think people should
watch something else on the TV in the dressing room.
(41:57):
Everyone's got the sky neighbors, Yeah, Put neighbors
on, put friends on. Have a good laugh at Ricky
Gervais. Or something.
You're in. Why?
What's happened out there? In this day and age, if you have
half an eye on or go looking forsomething, whether it's
Instagram or you read Sky Sportson the news, you see the
headline and you're like, I wantto go past it, but you you just
(42:18):
can't. It's like one of those things,
but it's the same. Say it rains and then cricket,
you've got time to fill. So you've got to go, well, we've
got to talk about something. Let's talk about this.
And it's you could be in the dressing room, but you've got
half a night again, What are they saying there?
So I just watch something else, like put something else on.
But I think that's all part of one of these.
That's why it's so hard to win away.
That's why it's hard to hard to do.
(42:40):
And that's the one of the beauties of it.
Any lessons learnt from the ashes here that you think you
can take over there? I thought there was a lot of
good that came out of that series.
I mean, you got like I did a thing with the board the other
day that that series we had him,Jimmy, you know, Olly Robinson,
people like that very experienced attack.
(43:01):
This is an attack that's really on the up.
You know, you these guys had a real pedigree behind them.
Now they've got an attack they're going to have to learn
and all the things we're talkingabout something new to them,
right? So they're the things, but in
general, I just think you've gotto keep evolving.
You know, I thought that it was one of, and it's because of the
nature of sport. To go 2 nil down in that series
(43:23):
and come back from that, I thought was one of the most
amazing achievements because that's a moment when you're
like, here we go again. You've just given them the
headline now. But you know.
Moral victory. But to come back from that, that
was brilliant management and forthe senior players in that was
an amazing it because it's really hard when it turns on you
(43:44):
like that to arrest momentum is a really hard thing to do.
So there, you know, there is no doubt going to be moments when
we are a long way behind and it's how you deal with that.
Does that knock you off course when the trouble comes?
Don't flinch. And I think that's the most
important thing. Stick to what's got you to where
you are. I don't know why I'm talking
(44:06):
like that, but basically just just stay true to what you're
doing out there and what's got you there.
We had Justin Langer on on the pod.
It was fantastic. He was he was a great listen,
but he he just lent on the fact that he maybe felt England
lacked bit of a killer instinct in big moments into.
Do you agree with that at all oris is that just something that
(44:26):
maybe an Australian would say? Just have a little niggle I.
Think you just evolved, don't you really?
I think the India series, we hadour moments, that's true.
But give credit to the opposition.
You know some, I think there's some brilliant teams in Test
cricket now. I thought the win we had in New
Zealand last winter, you know, that New Zealand team is going
like that as well. Look at their bowling attack,
(44:46):
you know, we won that series. So I don't agree with that.
I just think that ultimately there's some bloody good teams
out there. This Australian team is going to
be really good and as you know, winning Test series is not easy
and you know you have those moments and you just got to be
on the right side of it. You need those moments of luck,
as are they. There'll be something, you know,
whether it's on the field, off the field, something.
(45:08):
There'll be a moment that happens that you can't plan for
or anything, but it might just be a drop catch here or there or
Nick that goes wide that you can.
There's so many moments. Or an injury to an opposition
player like Lion. We had it with, so if you look
at the emergence of Bethel, you know, you think when
opportunities come, it was we had Jordan Cox to go there as
(45:30):
the spare keeper batter. He gets injured, breaks his
finger. So then Pope ends up going there
and Bethel comes in at 3:00 and then you look at what talent he
is. So you're going to have the
luck. You just got to hope you're on
the right side of it. You just mentioned Jacob Bethel,
what makes him so special? Also, what about leadership
qualities? Obviously just being captain in
(45:51):
Ireland. Yeah, I think that when you
look, we talk about, you know, can you you talk about what we
want with players that can put bowlers under pressure, can soak
up pressure. Simple game, all of that right
mentality. He's got all of it.
You know when you watch him, he's got time.
He plays well off the back for if you just off, he can really
put you under pressure. So that's the part that we see.
(46:12):
And he's one of those passes, the 42nd Test where you just
think, wow, this kid could be amazing.
You know, then you look at him and the way that he carries
himself. So I sat round in the hotel was
when we stand in knots, the Hearts Hotel is it.
And he and Baz and a few of us are sitting round and they're
talking about facing bowlers in the Nets and that.
(46:33):
And Baz is like, you know, guys,I think, you know, you're saying
to Beth, you guys, you know, youcould end up facing bowlers in
the Nets a bit more that might help you.
And Beth's like, well, but actually this is what I think
about that. And This is why I think we need
the and I was like, Blimey, that's punchy from a 21 year.
And he did it in such a good way, so clear on what he was
(46:54):
about and how he's going to evolve.
But he's got a nice nature, as you know, with it.
He becomes someone, you know, you're looking at in the far
future really as potential leadership, but you also leaders
aren't just your captain. So he's a really important part.
He's a conduit between the Stokes and the younger
generation coming through. So he can start developing in
(47:15):
that, you know, and and there's a lot sort of made about him and
Pope that's going to be the story and stuff at the moment.
Pope, he's the one that's in possession of that.
There's a bit of cricket for Bethel to come.
We don't make these decisions till right before because
there's no point worrying and thinking about something until
you have to, you know, and that we did that before and we we
(47:37):
made a so when it was Johnny or Brookie for India.
Imagine if you like, you spend all this time months before
going, OK, let's do. And then all of a sudden, you
know, it was horrendous really for Harry Brook and he had
personal issues why he had to leave, but it's not why do we
worry about all of that decisionmaking until we had to?
So that's why we did that. But he looks just one of those
(48:00):
players that could be a generational talent.
Bethel in all formats, as we've seen.
It's a bit root like it when he was my age, he was the guy you
know, Thorpy picked him out as and you want to get them in that
environment as quick as possible, don't you really, as
you don't have to wait for the loads of runs in three seasons
of this and that like just like they can play so.
(48:21):
But you may have watched it cameup on my phone the other day,
Tendulkar catching that catch. Do you remember when he was like
16? He was like running.
He was like a one handed. One handed.
Swoop and locked over his. Head I might not have been born.
You wouldn't have been born he Iwas barely alive, but he was
like Headingley or somewhere. And Tendulkar's running around
catch is a great catch. He's when Capaldev hits 6 sixes
(48:42):
against Eddie or whatever it wasagainst Eddie Hemmings to avoid
the follow on. He's 16.
You know, I said Luke Littler's winning World Championships at
17. You know, Adam Scott, they they
reckon had his own plane at 21 from winning golf tournaments.
You know, like 2122 is not that young.
You know, there's a lot of very,I saw a thing, Quinton de Kock
(49:02):
playing at 21, you know, David Warner and all of these guys.
Too much about. Age so by a long way.
Either way, both ways, yeah. You know, and it's like and
actually experience, I think this when we're in employer
getting rant about employing people, like there's a thing we
can't hire that person. They haven't got any experience.
You go yeah, but what is you know, if you ask people, they
(49:22):
say what's he so and so like as a coach?
Yeah, they're all right. Yeah, they're not been too bad.
They've been in it for 1015 years.
You ask everyone, yeah, they're all right.
That experience is a really bad.That's not an endorsement to
hire that person. You know, you want someone who
says, oh, they're amazing or youtake a punt on someone who's on
the way up, you know, so it's itis, it's that thing about the
(49:45):
brain, like certainty. So when you see someone who's
got a whole track record of something, you're just much more
comfortable. It's much more uncomfortable to
have some. You don't know what's going to.
Happen. It's easier for that to go wrong
because you're like, well, it's this was meant to be this.
That's all we've got time for. For the Love of Cricket podcast
Rocky, a huge thank you to you. I wanted a little deal with you
(50:07):
before we sign off. That was really fascinating.
Loved every moment of this podcast.
If England win the Ashes, lift the Ashes in Sydney.
Can we have you back on the pod in January?
Oh. Come on, anytime.
Anytime, well, we need a bit of a break, a little bit of a gap
for me. All right, do do your rap then.
Let's see. Let's see.
No, I'm just going to say thanks, mate.
Well done. Yeah, you're brilliant.
(50:29):
Inspiring. Thanks, Kizi.
I hope they're all listening to this, the players, because it's
saved me sending a WhatsApp. You got to be smart because when
they get there, they're not going to be anonymous.
We got in a culture of play, 2 games dropped, but I got the
sense you came in Baz. Certainly when you're my
players. Doesn't matter whether you
succeed or fail, as long as you're doing it to the style and
identity that's fine. Ducky is like a hand grenade in
the media. When he gets asked the gotcha
(00:21):
question he just blurts out we'll chase more the merrier you
know. Don't just get 300, get 7000
more chases. Right.
This thing came out when are yougoing to declare BFK?
Which he called me which meant big fat keys.
But when he got asked that on Sky he'd go oh he sort of get a
bit nervous. Go big friendly keys.
(00:49):
I'm delighted to say we're joined by England MD Rob Key.
As serious as ever. Good to have you, Kizi.
Thanks for coming on Can. You take us into that selection
room where you're trying to identify these players.
So it starts before that from going into the room, So you see,
So we have a whole network now, whether it's scouts now, the
(01:11):
analytics that you get. So we track every single ball
that happens for fast bowlers, anything.
You can see the swing, you can see how much they move, it
released all that stuff and whatthe data does and what the
analytics and the scouting does.It narrows the playing field.
So you start zoning in on the players that you really like.
So Ben Duckett for example, slightly different.
(01:31):
I played against Duckett, he got2 hundreds against us and I
remember being captain and just thinking why every he's just, he
got 2 hundreds and we couldn't bowl a dot ball at him and I'm
like what is going on? You know, what sort of rubbish
are our bowlers bowling? I was a captain that didn't
think Bowler should bowl back, which you would have hated.
But every ball is like, and I'm thinking this bloke without even
(01:54):
breaking sweat is putting us under pressure.
And that's the thing. And you just see something, I
don't know what it is. I don't think it ever takes
long. Like there's there's a few
things that just catch your eye and it does it take wheat Baz
and I reckon it's about 40 seconds worth where you get
these clips and you get the highlights right, which is
important. And what you see is the players
(02:15):
best. The game is about your best
cricket, not your worst. We are very good at sort of
going, yeah, but he does this and he does that go No, no,
What's he's good about? Someone who pulls length or back
of a length crazy in front of square.
And has that that illusion of time, which I think comes from a
simplicity of technique and all of that.
If you've got loads of moving parts and your head's doing all
of this stuff, you you're not. I was like that as a player,
(02:39):
you're not going to be consistent because there's too
much to go wrong. So you see that and you're just
like, what, here we go, this looks something special.
That's what we saw with like Bashir and just a few clips of
him bowling and then what we do and we, we've been our own
victims of this really. Because then we talk about the
WhatsApp group and we just put things on there.
(03:01):
But you take Bashir, he then goes to Abu Dhabi to the Lions,
where it's like The Apprentice where there's six of the best
spinners in the country. We think that we're looking to
select for India. And they have a month in the
Lions practicing out in Abu Dhabi with Graham Swan, Andrew
Flintoff's there, and we're judging them all the time.
So it's a little bit more than just the clips.
(03:22):
That's the bit that we go, whoa,here we go, there's something
special here. Then we explore.
So how does that go? Telling people they're picked or
not making it or it must be a great phone call to make.
Who gets the honor of doing that?
Well, Baz does that. When I started, I did all the
negative calls and then it became clear that if I if every
time I rang someone, they start,you know, I think this isn't
going to be great news. So then as it's evolved, Baz
(03:45):
basically does the important calls.
So good or bad? So if you're being left out, if
it's a contentious one, he'll dothat.
And generally I think we will. Jax.
I said, how was Jax? Jaxy?
I spoke to him after. So alright mate, well done.
How was it and all of that. And he's like, yeah, Bass sort
of spoke to me for a minute and then said, oh, by the way,
you're going to the ashes. Oh, right.
(04:07):
And then there's not much else, you know, like the same thing.
So he does it. And then we're a bit like, look,
if you. Because when you leave players
out, I think is the other thing,you know, when you end up
leaving a player, they often don't hear what you're saying
because it's not the time then to go into reasons why and all
of that. So what we do is they say, look,
you know, I'm happy to speak to you at any stage.
(04:29):
Just let me know, you know, if you need me or Luke Wright or
Baz or whatever. So someone like Sam Curran, who
we left out, you know, it's likeI've met up with him.
He said, right, can we go and have a coffee, tea?
And you know, there's only so much you can say like keep
getting runs mate or whatever. But Baz went and he just went
about his business. He sought out the information he
needed. He's gone about his business.
(04:50):
He's now made his way back. So that's generally how we do
it. I mean, a lot of the actual
selections are done with probably about you have Baz
Stokes, he medical people, performance director, you know,
a few others that are all inputting into it.
But a lot of that's been done before.
So at the day of selection is a bit more of like we have debated
(05:13):
this now for the last month where all the analytics,
everything else. When you have the actual
selection, it's sort of pretty simple.
It's just like right, bang stoke, I'll start and I'll say
right stoke seat #1 #2 you know,and you go down there, any
disagreements? No, right, let's move on.
Do. You call every player.
We call every player. This time it was really fiddly.
(05:35):
So Baz normally does it and obviously he's in New Zealand at
the moment. So this time though, because we
were picking 3 squads it it was a little bit like right and
trying to remember who's where. And then you've got the players
that you're sending out to New Zealand.
So it was fiddly this time because you've got so many
players that you're doing, but Baz will generally be the one to
(05:56):
call everyone and then we're there if anyone wants any more.
Pick up the phone and we'll do whatever you need, you know, but
pick up the phone. A lot of people obviously talk
about Baz and Stokes and their style and they're very much more
on camera than you are. But a lot of the stuff you're
talking about and you put those guys in place.
What's your view and your philosophy?
(06:18):
So my thing wasn't about right and this doesn't mean it's not
important. Wasn't about right.
How are we going to win this series?
How are we going to win that series?
My thing was like, I think English culture, English sport,
English cricket in particular, has been far too reserved, far
too conservative. Now people might disagree with
that and that's fine. I'm talking about the mentality.
(06:39):
And so I wanted people that could come in and I wanted a
coach that was going to free people up, let them take the
aggressive option, let them go out there and see the
opportunity. There's a lack of optimism at
times with English cricket, you know, we're very good at
pointing out all the problems and not the solutions.
So that's where then on that sort of seed, that's where Baz
(07:00):
came into it because he was aligned to that Stokes, he was
the same where it's like, right,you know, we want people to play
a more aggressive form of cricket.
We want players, we want, I wantcoaches and captains that take
pressure off the players in thatregard.
And the Test team was right for that because it had a tough
time. So that was the thing.
But when I look back, I think soI look back to some of the big
(07:22):
influences in my career. So I was never a great player.
I played a little bit for England, but I was probably in
one of the greatest times of eras of county cricket.
So the people that when I was, you know, all your great
influences, I don't know about you 2, but generally when you
look back there when you were 20/21/22, when you're younger
(07:42):
and when you get older you become more cynical, you think
you know everything, right? So I was so lucky.
We had Raul Dravid at Kent, we had Shane Warne who then played
for Hampshire and I got to know through playing poker.
And there was that great Australian era that came into
cricket then when so many, whether it was Strauss, Vaughan,
all of that, this came into our game and the way they thought
(08:06):
was sort of really infectious into how you thought as a player
and it shaped the way that I didit really and the my views on
the game. And when you look then Baz was
the same because he, when he wasat that age, I think he went out
to Sydney and spent six months in Sydney with Steve War and
those guys training with NSW because Lisa's wife is an
(08:28):
Australian from Sydney. So that was the influences that
came in. But the biggest one really was
Warney and how he did it. How did you end up playing poker
with Shame on? So if you you 2 might be too
young. So there was a craze of Texas
holdem. So everyone was playing Texas
holdem was the game. It was you had online poker and
Warney was like the biggest kid,the biggest cricket Nuffy as
(08:52):
well. So we would play against him.
And in that we would then have like these massive sets of poker
chips. There was a few of us in the
Kent team. There was masquerading as
Warren, Sean Irvine in the Hampshire side.
And so if it rained, we'd all run off Warren.
He would sledge us and everything and then we'd run off
and we'd go and play poker. And in that you would just like
(09:15):
like exactly the same thing you're sitting round.
I'm saying like what, how do youset a field for like that
reverse hit that people had started to play and you'd be
like, mate, you just bowl of pieas far as slow as you can
outside of stunning and just youknow, they spoon it in the air.
You know, all right, all right, what's your view on you know,
what about? But I said, mate, you can have
every you can have every man on the boundary, but it's always
(09:36):
how you getting people out, how you getting people out.
So then it starts to do it. We would he would play in a game
against Kent. I remember it at Canterbury and
you know, he was a smoker, stufflike that, Like I was then.
It was the only good thing that came out of smoking was me
speaking to him. Biggest regret of my life doing
that. And I remember we're sort of
(09:57):
like 400 going into tea on the on the on the sort of
penultimate day, on the third day.
And he's a bit like, when are you going to declare BFK?
Which he called me, which meant big fat keys, right?
But when he got asked that on Sky, he'd go, oh, he'd sort of
get a bit nervous, go big friendly keys and he's like,
(10:18):
he's going to be mate, how safe are you?
You know, how many runs do you need?
You know what? You know how many is enough?
When you're going to declare? It's like negative.
And he would bowl balls. And if you remember Canterbury,
he would shout abuse at me, bowla ball and I wouldn't declare.
And he's like declare keys he awake and all this and he's no
and I could just hear him, you know, like every he's just
(10:39):
looking up doing. This.
You're in the, you're in the changing.
Room I'm in the changing room laughing because he's now become
a mate and he's sort of like just and he's a bit ruder than
that. But I can't even that.
I can't go into what he's calling me.
And he loved cricket like and heloved aggressive attacking
cricket. And I never.
And, and so anyway, we come in, we end up not declaring.
We get like 500. I'm like, oh, I can keep the
(11:00):
field in and and afterwards we're sitting round at the end
and he's like, mate, what's that?
You know, 550 in a day and a half.
You know what's going on. And he's like you got to he's
got you got to be prepared to lose, to win.
And I'm sort of at this stage. So I would argue with him.
I'd go yeah, but it's different for you.
No, it's not. My teams believe we can bowl
(11:20):
anyone out. My teams, we we'd we'd set you
220 and we'd bowled you out. I said, yeah, that's fine for
you, mate. You're the greatest bowler of
all time. I've got treaders like lobbing
them up. You know, it's not quite he's a
good bowler. He's a very good bowler.
Not Shane Warne though, Tready right.
But it was all of that. It was so infectious.
Then when you would play the fields, he would say I could
(11:41):
watch him set a field almost because he captained a lot like
Stokes and he just believed so if you were so he would set mats
he had masquerading as bowling, literally 68 mile an hour, just
straight on a length. Couldn't do anything else.
He'd have slipped around here. He'd have short leg, he'd have
silly point and you you made youfeel like this bloke's bowling.
(12:01):
Absolute hand grenades you sort of and every time you go on and
he'd go Jesus, BFK what the and you're like.
Oh my God. It's like I just want and if you
when he let go of the boy, I can't remember you would have
played it. Do you play Warnie?
This thing came out like and andif you played like what the best
(12:22):
4 defensive, he'd make you feel like you'd played the worst shot
ever. He'd just stand in the middle of
the pitch and all sorts, wouldn't he?
Just, he had a theatre about himthat just he was dominating at
any stage. His influence is quite
interesting actually. I'm sure he's influenced
virtually every cricketer that'splaying the game now.
But our group in 2023, Ashes, ifyou remember, Pat Cummings runs
(12:42):
in first of all the Ashes, Zach Crawley, it's one of the
greatest shots to actually cover4.
But they had two slips and a gully and a deep point.
And in our changing room everyone was going.
Could you imagine if Shane Warnewas on commentary now, even
before a Bulls bowl and he'd become ballistic?
He'd hate this. It's like the least Australian
thing in the world. So the influence of his
attacking psychology was in our change room, I think.
(13:05):
He had the best cricket brain. So things like, and this is what
gets the people, I think sort ofmisunderstand at times because
Ducky is like a hand grenade in the media.
When he gets asked the gotcha question he just blurts out
we'll chase more the merrier. You know, don't just get 300,
get 7000. More chases, right?
And he he doesn't mean that, butthe point.
(13:25):
And this is where Warney always remember, you know, if you he
would say, and I used to think this, you know, if it's the last
day and you've got to bat out the day, you know, you might
need three 5400. He'd be like, we're going from
that doesn't mean you're slogging from ball one, but just
that alone you. I think you've got more chance
of surviving the day because you're still your brain.
(13:46):
Just the whole point for me, my biggest belief is that your
brain works better when you're thinking positively.
So the whole point is like you defend better when you're being
positive doesn't mean go out there and go and you've got a
slog. And what we don't want is
players that positive cricket tothem means running down the deck
every ball and putting your riskat 100%.
(14:07):
It's like, can you put have you got the talent, which he's one
of the best in the world ever atof putting the bowlers best ball
under pressure. That is the reason why live
sport, Test cricket, cricket, anything because it's it puts
all the fans in that place whereyou don't know what's going to
happen where you're thinking like that.
I hated part of that India series at Lords when we couldn't
(14:31):
get those wickets and everyone. How good, how good is this?
This is horrendous. I feel sick.
You know you're a. Bit of a nervous what?
Like during the Ashes 23, you'd often you'd watch all day, but
you'd be in an office somewhere so you're a bit of a nervous.
Watch No, I try and portray thatI'm not a nervous watcher, but I
think everyone is. They're just better at hiding
it. So you sit there no one's like
(14:51):
when when you can't get what we're going on.
Oh, this is fine. But I think inside the the big
thing is it's like, you know, the coaches that that blow up
all the time. We all do that in our heads.
I think, you know, you'd have done it as a captain, you as a
player. And you're, and especially in
that environment, you, you try and hide it a bit, don't you,
Because you don't want, if he's got a bat next, the last thing
(15:12):
he wants is someone going, what's that about?
What are you doing? And that's like all the games we
play with ourselves. And the best people are better
at hiding those insecurities andworry than others, really.
That's your advice to me was wear sunglasses.
This is like your eyes look likeyou want to kill something.
Look and smile more. Practice smiling.
(15:33):
Practice smile. That was Baz and Kezi was like,
whatever you do, wear sunglassesbecause you just look like the
whole world. It's against us.
Everything is going wrong. But I, I completely understand
that thing is, and it's like, say those tricks of the mind.
It's like the image Baz portrayson the on the balcony as one of
control, but you know, behind those sunglasses, he knows
what's going on. But it's some it's a great way
(15:56):
for, I think the way you have changed cricket or whatever,
like you say, come in and have skin in the game and see the
upside, which is brilliant because it is untraditional for
English people to see that. And and obviously in this squad
that we've got, there's a lot ofpeople with upside.
There's like you say, those selections that are off the not
(16:16):
off the cuff. I mean, sorry, what's the best
place to describe by surprise? But like then when you think
about it, you're like, OK, actually it makes sense.
I see the idea Ashes Cricket always seems to be the thing
that's dominated. I don't know the narrative
around like at what point are you starting sort of try and
formulate the squad and the sidefor this series?
(16:38):
So you come in what, 3 1/2 yearsago did you almost look out
right this? That could be the time when I
want, you know, to go and do something incredibly special in
Australia and we'll we'll start moulding something that is
aside. This wants to win along the way,
but is this team that will give us the best chance in Australia.
Yeah, I think there's an elementof short term and an element of
(17:01):
long term. So, So what we tried to do with
the bowling has pretty much beenbecause him and Jimmy were
coming towards the end, you know, like you had to then
reinvigorate the bowling attack.You had no choice.
So at the start it was we had, you know, remember those loads
of injuries you and Jimmy had been dropped or left out,
whatever it was, But you know, and the the bowling was very
(17:22):
experienced, but the batting wasn't.
So it's like right first year, let's get the batting right.
Let's give them confidence. There's so much talent in that
set up. Johnny Best are all these guys
you know that that you just feltthat had been a little bit
stifled for lots of different. Reasons.
Well you gave them a run first of all.
Like we got in a culture of play. 2 games dropped play, you
know, I think it was 54 players were used in 16 tests or
(17:46):
something insane like that for different reasons, but I got the
sense you came in Baz. Certainly when you're my
players, you're playing speech end of the summer type thing.
It was like, you're going to go.And that's why I'm Baz when I
saw him on here. That's a big thing because it's
very hard to get that get players if they've got to take
high risk and got to play an aggressive game.
(18:06):
If the first thing you do is drop them, it doesn't work.
So I, and I've been thinking about this for a while, like the
MO that the thing that they do. And I saw a clip that from where
you were saying from last week, actually the thing that they do
really well. So when you've got your style
and I which might be to play aggressively might be to take
risk at the first sign of trouble, how you deal with that
(18:29):
is really important. So for example, you said the
Phil Salt story. I think that is some of the most
powerful bits of, you know, getting the best out of players
is when they fail, playing the style that you want, which is
aggressive, you praise them. So you actually make a point of
saying like didn't work this time, but you keep going like
(18:50):
that. He did it with Duckett, got out
first ball in the second inningsof Pakistan 2-3 years ago.
Duckett, he just went, well, I'mrooty, well done.
I think whoever got runs and Pope or whatever and he went
Ducky, that's your shot, Never put it away.
You'll get a lot of runs with that moved on.
And that is like, wow. And I think that's one of the
most important traits that they have.
(19:11):
And that's what they do so well.They give backing to players.
Yeah, you know, that allows you to fail.
You know, as long as you're doing, it doesn't matter whether
you succeed or fail, as long as you're doing it to the style and
identity, that's fine. You'll be backed.
If you go away from that, then you might find yourself out of
that. But you're picking on on
character and obviously backing players.
But going to Australia, have youhad in the back of your mind?
(19:35):
OK, well, Beth as a good player,the short ball so Australia
might suit him or Josh Tung getscan expose a slightly fuller
length, gets movement but has a high pace, slightly the wrong
side of it. Quite an awkward face will suit
Australia still building a squad16. 16 man squad, yeah, with the
with the whole line. So it's like a nearly a 40 man
squad. Yeah, you're still building a a
(19:58):
squad based on players that you think can succeed in Australia.
Yeah, for that we are. And like we take a different
squad to India, we'd have more spin, all of that, the makeup.
But generally the thought is, isthe, you know, that's, that is
what's required to succeed at international level.
That's, that's the make up. Same with white ball as well,
where these are just the bowlers.
(20:19):
When you look at the best bowlers, people, you know,
forget that for most of your career you were 85 plus and you
had skill and you had really allthat stuff.
That is what's required to be really successful at
international cricket. And then you need to build a
team that has the different versions of that.
So it might be Mark Wood, short Skiddy, 92 mile an hour, Joffra,
(20:42):
you know, who has a bit of everything.
Then you might have someone likeMatt Potts who can bowl that
little bit fuller and for different conditions.
But that I think it's not as simple as saying we've just done
everything for Australia. This is where we think the next
year of English cricket needs togo across all formats, you know,
rather. So we need a left armor.
See, we're trying to invest in Josh Hull, who might be two or
(21:05):
three years away, but you're just trying to build something
that's going to sustain itself for a long period of time.
And hopefully along the way thathelps you win the Ashes, that
then helps you win in India, helps you win at all these
different places. And that's more the the theory
than just right. We, we're all on it's chips all
(21:26):
in the middle for the Ashes. It might be for everyone else,
but for us it's not been about that.
It's been, this is what we think.
It's going to take us forward. This episode is sponsored by
Thriver and if you go to their website LinkedIn our episode
description you can get 20% off your first blood test using our
code Love of Cricket. I'm all over this one Jose, When
(21:47):
you get to a certain age and I've now fallen out of being a
professional athlete, spent all those years getting monitored
and and now I don't have that. So doing this did the thrive of
the health questionnaire sent off my first blood test.
Getting that consistent monitoring is so important to me
and for my future health. I'm on board too, Brody.
You're never too young to look after yourself and stay in
shipshape condition. You are late 30s as.
(22:09):
Well, I know I'm getting to thatage as but no, actually
genuinely, I think it'd be really interested to do it.
I've never done a blood test like this.
I'm intrigued to see you know your markers and get proper live
information about my health. I think I assume I'm healthy
because I'm a professional cricketer, but really looking
forward to getting the results to this one.
Yeah, it's super easy. It doesn't even hurt.
(22:30):
You just send off your sample tothrive and you get a detailed
report written by doctors. Yeah, it sounds like a no
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first blood test. Offspin seems to be the thing,
(22:52):
so say, Will Jacks is probably the only name when you look down
that list of 16 guys that you think, oh, that's a surprise
pick or something. What's it about Jack C?
Why? And Bashir, what's the thing
about Ospin you feel? Is it just the same thing about
Australian conditions? Nathan Lyon's been so good for
so long. Yeah, Nathan Lyon sort of skews
(23:12):
a bit of the the data and analysts, but I think that's it.
We think Bashir, you know, he gets a bit of stick, but he's
got 60 wickets in what, 17 games, something like that.
He's 21. He'll get better and better.
So we invest in that. You feel that those conditions
out there, that bit of over spin, the height, the bounce,
(23:33):
that that's going to be helpful.You might have stocks,
footmarks, all of that type of stuff.
He's a wicket taker. You know, you are going to need
a spinner, we think to be able to just make sure that, you
know, when it gets really hot, as you'll know, you might need
someone just to rest people up alittle bit, you know, be able to
just set the feel back. They might not be.
(23:53):
That's Shane Warne's great, one of these greatest skills,
whether he could bowl in the first innings.
He could bowl 1520 plus overs going at 2 1/2 and over.
Now the game has evolved. That might not be possible for a
spinner. But that's the thinking that
actually the, And it might change because they might do
what Pakistan did and put the industrial blowers on the pitch
(24:15):
and play on the same pitch over and over again, you know, But
the thinking is that the series isn't going to be defined by the
spinner, you know, but the spinner has a really big role to
make sure the seamers can do it.And when you look in years gone
by, it's actually the batting that you know, you've got to get
runs. You've got, if you look at where
Australia's batting's been in England, in Australia, it's like
(24:38):
that. Ponting said to me when we won
in 2010, eleven, our average partnership was over 50 and
since then it's been like 20. That's big difference shows like
runs and there's loads of reasons for that, isn't there?
It's because you've been in the field a long time, you can't get
wicket so you're tired and the Aussies have got an incredible
bowling lineup that are relentless.
But you'd run. You do need runs on the board
(25:01):
like 270. There isn't, doesn't necessarily
cut. Although what I would say is the
pitchers have tweaked a little bit since Pat Cummings has come
in as as captain. You know, they're, they're a bit
more bolder friendly, aren't they?
Well, Melbourne you did you playMelbourne last time?
Wasn't that? That looked like one of the
toughest. That did the most.
That did the most or second mostsince Hawkeye data was collected
(25:22):
I think since 2005. It like seamed and bounced and
nipped and nipped. The most great pitch to run
drinks on, actually. Did you not play?
That one? Didn't.
Play that one. It was.
It was null and void though. He wasn't that.
Yeah, I think that particular test was null and void, I think.
That was Scott Bollen building astatue.
That was statue. 6. 9. But how much do you look at
(25:48):
Australia? Everything you talk about is
very much about when you took the job.
When you're looking at that job,it was restructuring, restyling
English cricket, but you're playing top flight international
sport, every sport in the world look at the opposition in some
way, shape or form. Do you have scouts?
Do you are you watching what's going on there?
Do you have analysts in bunkers doing all the numbers on, you
(26:10):
know, like collage and nicking off from full of a lengthy all
that sort of stuff? Or do you go and say we're
building this with our England team, We go and play our best
cricket wherever in the world and we we can win?
We do a little bit of everythinglike we have on the board of
Gavaskar series, which is the most recent one probably that's
been out there. We we have a whole load of
(26:31):
analytics that's gone into what happened in that series, stuff
like that. So it's a mixture, but all of
that stuff really, you know, andyou've got to remember Basin
Stokesy in particular, the two of those, they've got a they're,
they're, they're not far off where the analysts come out as
well because they've got good cricket brains.
So they don't need like a bit like someone said about Dhoni,
(26:53):
he sort of does everything an analyst would say anyway, and
the same thing, you know, So they're a little bit like their
intuition is very much aligned to what the data would say
anyway. And that comes a bit more so.
So, I mean, you guys probably know more about it because I'm
not in the dressing room. We try and create a world where
players take responsibility themselves.
(27:14):
I, you know, I have an issue with the way we coach kids.
I think we tell them what to do all the time.
Drives me mad. So you create players and young
adults that can't think for themselves.
You know, it's a different rant.I could go on, but you'll know
you want to go out there and be successful.
You get what you need. So if you need all the, if you
want to know how someone's playing, what their weaknesses
(27:35):
are, what their stats are, you can get that.
But that's down to you. It's not like sit down and go,
you know, How many meetings do you reckon you saw and that time
you were playing, how many meetings did you have where you
just went through the opposition?
Of thousands. How did you?
Well, not with bats, no, not with bats, Not none.
I think with bats and Stokes, because it was that mindset of,
(27:56):
you know, we've all sat through bowlers meetings over the years.
Top of off, occasional bouncer. Yeah, next.
I think top of off, occasional bouncer, but you could drag him
across a bit. Yeah, OK, right.
Next, maybe top of off, but occasionally and ultimately for
me, the the skill of bowling is you have.
I wanted that information. I needed that information, but
we had an app at the time where you could go and check out any
(28:18):
player in the world, see where they get out, see where they hit
fours and sixes. I wanted a, in the back of my
brain, a bit of info, but the art of bowling.
When you're playing for EdgertonPark Crew Club or like
Leicester, you don't have information of how to get this
batter out. You feel the pitch, you feel
what that batter's triggering that day.
Some days Steve Smith might walkout and be trigging more than he
(28:41):
was last week, so he's more of an LBW candidate or something.
You feel the game out there and expose that pitch with the ball
you've got in your hand at the time that bat was batting.
I like to have the info of what was coming, but they are bowling
is not going, not needing Ben Stokes to go.
So this guy bit Fuller, nip it back top of off with LBW.
(29:01):
You should know that, but is he an LBW candidate today or
actually is he really nervous and he's going to drive at 1:00
early, so float one outside off stump swinging fuller.
You know, that's cricket, isn't it?
That's what you would do with white ball batting anyway, isn't
it? Which is this is the point that
I think we we go very technical.Not saying it's not important,
but I don't think you play the game from a technical point of
(29:24):
view. You're thinking about you versus
the opposition in the. Bowl.
What he's saying is technically you're horrendous, but.
You're really good, which is true as well.
No, I think for sort of my own game and for everyone's game,
it's actually we try and dumb cricketers down sometimes I
think the world's gone a bit data heavy and like the football
expected goals or whatever. And then you get Roy Keane
actually at the end just say, well, it was one nil.
It doesn't matter how many shotsyou had or your XGS 3.
(29:46):
It's that's the actual result. But you know, Brodie doesn't
need a whole data sheet on how to bowl.
He's bold for 25 years. He knows it and he a lot of it.
I find there's those little things about you might walk out
to the pitch on a day and I always find I want to walk on
the pitch to feel it with my spikes.
And if it's rock hard, you thinkit's might play like this.
(30:07):
So if your spikes go in a bit, it might be like this for the
bowlers. You're probably that on this
pitch very quickly in 3 or 4 balls, you and Jimmy.
That's why I. Scratched the bowlers.
I scratched my front foot landing because I could
immediately tell if there's moisture or.
Not but that's like this is the length on this wicket or this is
going to work today or it's not swinging as much as we expected.
So you've got to adapt. And I think you're trying to
(30:28):
from listening to you about dataand then you're trying to match
up the intuition, aren't you? And say, is the data telling us
something completely opposite towhat we're seeing with our own
eyes? And it's probably challenging
that, but that'd be the same because it's all about gameplay,
isn't it? And when you're talking about
Warney, I think that's, you know, some of the best things
that we can hear the aura of theguy and how he bowled, how he
(30:48):
made you feel. There's nothing on a sheet of
paper that will tell you or theyprobably did this actually with
Warney. Shane Warne will make you feel 1
foot tall like you've never played the game before, like how
you're going to deal with that. But that was all part of it.
That's all part of the gameplay of, you know, moving around your
crease to create an illusion of something or you might move a
fielder just to create an illusion that this ball is
(31:10):
coming. There's you need that live
cricket and that live knowledge,that live intuition and feel.
And I think that's where you've got some really good people that
you've got. You might not always agree, but
you're quite aligned on this is how it is and what I I'm just
saying this as a fan. Obviously you're the boss and I,
(31:30):
you know he's your boss. Yeah, you're not playing
anymore. I don't care.
But he's your boss still. But what?
By the way, he was a trickier. Don't.
Worry. About it Sneaky is what you.
But like, and having done a bit of leadership, it's like you,
you need that alignment. I know there's a lot of let's
have diversity of thinking and but if you're all on different
pages, you never do anything andyou just get stuck.
(31:52):
And I felt I did that sometimes with my own leadership was like,
I was trying to think about this, trying to do that.
And I never really stuck myself on the mark and said this is
what we'll do. And I probably got put off like
way off course by that World Cupin India.
That was was really difficult. But that's what I like about the
group. You've got you Baz Stokesy, even
Fred probably in the alliance. That's an important person for
(32:16):
you to have that continuity and alignment of way of thinking for
the next people coming in as well.
Yeah, and the, the test team andthe whiteboard team, which
you're seeing now is very much about right.
Josh Barley, you know what you need.
We'll just try and provide it for you.
But you have, there's an elementwhere you have to ask it.
When you get down to the lines, you've got to be a bit more
prescriptive with the young. You might have a 1718 year old,
(32:37):
so you've got to be a bit more prescriptive.
But I, I sent a thing. There's Mike Hussey tells a
great story about Warren again, where sound like 1 trick pony
where everything comes from him.But and this is the difference.
So I think that at times we're creating a system where people
think the answer is about right,where's my head going where's
and that is important. All of that right?
(32:58):
But there's a great story. I think Mike Hussey on his debut
and you did this. I think one of the masters at
it. You know, it's that
gamesmanship, you versus the batter.
And I think this is like the absolute gold standard of how
you should think and stuff. So Mike Hussey's a short leg.
I think Sarwan's batting and warn is like he's Boulder boys
(33:19):
like Ricky come in a extra coveron the drive.
He's going to get you caught there.
He's coming to you Ricky. And he'd come back, bowls
another ball and he's like Ricky, one more step closer, one
more. There's no like, where's my hand
and all of that. It's like Ricky, one more step
closer. Just come in here.
He's going to chip one to you. Get ready there Ricky, it's
coming to you. Another slobber 1 like this
Ricky one, just one more closer.And as he walks past the the
(33:42):
umpire, Hussey reckons he go. He turns around and goes fifth
ball LBW. So everything is like the
gamesmanship into making you think something else.
But it's him versus Sarwan and everything is focused on that.
So his line is a given, his length is a given, what he's
doing with his action is a given.
And that's the game. That's how we've got to think
(34:02):
with stuff. And I don't think you know,
fifth ball LBW nearly gets him. But that's what the great
players do. That's what you know, like
there's an element where we think, you know, if you're you
don't want to be stupid with stuff, you know, if you're
trying to you got a left arm seamer in white ball cricket
going across you every ball witha bit of bounce and you're
trying to hoik him over there. And that's just stupid at times,
(34:22):
you know. So it's you versus the bowler.
What's your plan, how you do it?That's what we've got.
That's what our young players need to they need to be thinking
like that, not where's my backliff coming from, you know,
give them good fundamentals and just let them play you versus
the opposition. I did.
There was a moment, Marnus Labouchain, bit of an
(34:44):
overthinker as a #3 and I knew he was under a bit of pressure.
So I knew Ed Baston was a noisy ground.
The crowd love it and he'd be coming in after we just got one
wicket. So I knew they'd be up and I
predetermined if I was bowling at him, I'd wait.
So he'd be take he'd take middle, not good for the over 8,
but he'd take middle. But I wanted him to have time to
(35:07):
think and sometimes you don't you sometimes you want to rush
because you want players not to have time to settle, but I
wanted him to have time to. OK, what's coming here?
Pre series mentioned about like a nonsense away swinger, just
like, you know, like Ellen McGraw used to go 5 Nils, all
sorts of rub it and I just waited and you could hear the
crowd go and then they stopped and he's still like fidgeting,
(35:28):
fidgeting. And as I was running in the
crowd had been waiting for that like 3 minutes and they were
going berserk. And I've had it before in a bad
way. You you concentrate on something
else. You think about the crowd and
luckily he nicked that one. You could have easily played
miss or whatever, but that's thegamesmanship of I knew that
Marnison overthink us and make him wait, make him think, make
(35:49):
him like take time to get into the game, overthink what's
coming his way. And you know, Baz encourages
that sort of thing, doesn't he is is very much on play the game
that is right in front of you right now.
You know, like figure out how you best can expose something in
that game, not what's your frontarm do.
And that there, you know, that'swhy you've been one of our
(36:11):
greatest bowlers because you know, there's people who could
bowl as quick as you. There's people probably you were
a little bit collapsed or whatever it was and all of that.
And you risked at times would dothat, be one of our best ever
bowlers. You know, you and Jimmy,
probably the best bowlers we've ever had, not because of the
attributes you had, because of the way you're able to think
about the game and get in the contest and all that.
(36:32):
Obviously a huge amount of talent.
But that's where and the problemcomes.
If you get so structured and everyone's having one to one
coaching and parents are paying £50 an hour for someone to tell
them just, you know, tweet, tinker with their technique, you
got to play the game. You know, that's what I didn't
do. I spent, you know, most of the
things I do is because of what Imucked up at, right?
Get obsessed with my bat lift and my stance and all this stuff
(36:54):
and you want people, the best players as you two were and are.
You're just playing the game against the opposition.
You have moments where you're winding up and thinking about
where's this and that. But generally in the heat of
battle, you're like, watch the ball play against the
opposition. When you have those moments of
everything, you don't play well though, as soon as you're
thinking about where your shoulders are.
Oh no, that's why I'm shaking itall the time.
(37:16):
But what sort of things important for you like when you
are there in the during the Ashes?
So I know you're around a bit, aren't you in the summer and you
might be watching in the backroom, but you say you're
going to be there in Australia for the whole time.
What do you how does that kind of work throughout the series?
Or you'll just see how what it'slike when.
You get there. The only thing I found was you
(37:36):
would have seen in the white board, like there's no way to
sit in the away grounds and stuff and I prefer watching on
TV. For me, I'm there to support
now, so we've done all this work.
The 11:00 will be picked, you know, we'll all have an input
into it, but Stokes and Baz willdo that.
He's for them to really have their, you know, to get for
Stokes in particular to go out on the field with the team he's
(37:57):
happiest with because he's the one, the captain in cricket.
Has not always been the way has it.
It's not always been the case that.
Well, I wouldn't. I couldn't speak in the past,
but yeah, I'd imagine. That with Baz and Stokes, it
has, yeah. You know, because they're the
ones that have got to, you know,you know, they're Stokes is the
one you're bowling now you're doing this.
He needs to know he's got the resource.
We've got to help him as much aswe can.
(38:18):
And then it's like there there'sno doubt that when we get what
they, they've got to be smart, right?
And I'm, I hope they're all listening to this, the players,
because it's saved me sending a WhatsApp or an e-mail and
telling them like, you've got tobe smart because when they get
there, they're not going to be anonymous.
So I remember in 2003, NASA doing the first press conference
saying like, we got to catch allour catches, you know, shock,
(38:41):
but we've got to catch all our catches.
You know, we can't afford to be making having to make 1520
opportunities and innings, whichis absolutely right.
The next day at practice, the Western Australian or after
practice, they had picture, I think it was John Crawley
dropping a catch. You know, so they're just going
to come for and that's fine. So our players on camera need to
(39:04):
be smart and not get caught doing stupid things and just be
aware that this is going to be one of the potentially one of
the best series of all time, going to be compelling viewing
and with that comes an interest that is great for the.
Don't ruin it before a ball's bowled Type 5.
Where was it Johnny had Johnny had a head butt of someone,
didn't they? Where was that?
That got released two days into the first Test match.
(39:26):
There's always something in there.
But that'd be a good balance though, isn't it?
For this, because it's an important part of this whole
side and the culture is to enjoythe country and to do things and
but like you say, he's given your your word.
Don't. You worry about that the.
Photographer in the first the. First off the tee, England
duffs. And you'll have Brody there
(39:49):
riling it up for. Everyone in the country, yeah.
We we landed in 2010 and Strauss, we went to a golf
course the day after landing andStrauss at the first tee shop
and it was maybe like a race dayat Flemington or something.
So everyone at this Golf Club was on the lash.
They all surrounded the first tee to watch everyone tee off.
So I'm like nervous of. Shit, did you put the club down
(40:10):
to see? What, you and Straussy?
It's his first one. Like left a bit immediately.
That's the only fucking hundred you're getting.
On his trip, Strauss. Immediately straight in back and
we loved it. We were like laughing and
cheering and like joining in with the heckling.
But you know, you just got to you got to enjoy that.
You got to buy into it, but you have to be very aware, like.
He's a bit Ryder Cup like, isn'tthere?
(40:31):
So like you've got to try and you don't want to let them get
on top or give them an in or like.
So I remember you'd get in a taxi, wouldn't you, or something
like that? And we were getting hammered,
like we were just getting, we were getting smashed and blokes
would look at you and they'd go,Gee, we just want a game, mate.
Any chance you could just give us a game?
You know, we, we, we want a contest, you know, like shut up,
mate, We're better than you, youknow, like, but they're
(40:51):
everyone. But all of that I think is great
for I, I don't know, you boys would know more.
I didn't really I used to think this when we were when I was
doing sky, all that stuff is like whatever, you know,
somewhat we had the great I loved him Bob Willis in the day
just saying like key rubbish andall that, you know, whatever.
I think it's much worse now for the like the forensic analysis
(41:15):
of your game. You know, where someone you're
we we'd be on the car literally be out to bat and there'd be
NASA or whoever myself, you know, and you're like getting
into the absolute detail of whatyou're doing wrong.
I think that's the stuff that you guys have to deal with.
There's actually much tougher than someone just saying you're
rubbish. Yeah, you have to try.
(41:35):
I think just try and avoid that really, because if you're, if
you're relying love NASA, but ifyou're relying on you or NASA or
someone on telly to give you technical advice, you get it
wrong, aren't you? As a player, if you're playing
for England and you're relying on.
I don't think. Anyone to tell you what but I?
Don't think anyone is, but the that's why I think people should
watch something else on the TV in the dressing room.
(41:57):
Everyone's got the sky neighbors, Yeah, Put neighbors
on, put friends on. Have a good laugh at Ricky
Gervais. Or something.
You're in. Why?
What's happened out there? In this day and age, if you have
half an eye on or go looking forsomething, whether it's
Instagram or you read Sky Sportson the news, you see the
headline and you're like, I wantto go past it, but you you just
(42:18):
can't. It's like one of those things,
but it's the same. Say it rains and then cricket,
you've got time to fill. So you've got to go, well, we've
got to talk about something. Let's talk about this.
And it's you could be in the dressing room, but you've got
half a night again, What are they saying there?
So I just watch something else, like put something else on.
But I think that's all part of one of these.
That's why it's so hard to win away.
That's why it's hard to hard to do.
(42:40):
And that's the one of the beauties of it.
Any lessons learnt from the ashes here that you think you
can take over there? I thought there was a lot of
good that came out of that series.
I mean, you got like I did a thing with the board the other
day that that series we had him,Jimmy, you know, Olly Robinson,
people like that very experienced attack.
(43:01):
This is an attack that's really on the up.
You know, you these guys had a real pedigree behind them.
Now they've got an attack they're going to have to learn
and all the things we're talkingabout something new to them,
right? So they're the things, but in
general, I just think you've gotto keep evolving.
You know, I thought that it was one of, and it's because of the
nature of sport. To go 2 nil down in that series
(43:23):
and come back from that, I thought was one of the most
amazing achievements because that's a moment when you're
like, here we go again. You've just given them the
headline now. But you know.
Moral victory. But to come back from that, that
was brilliant management and forthe senior players in that was
an amazing it because it's really hard when it turns on you
(43:44):
like that to arrest momentum is a really hard thing to do.
So there, you know, there is no doubt going to be moments when
we are a long way behind and it's how you deal with that.
Does that knock you off course when the trouble comes?
Don't flinch. And I think that's the most
important thing. Stick to what's got you to where
you are. I don't know why I'm talking
(44:06):
like that, but basically just just stay true to what you're
doing out there and what's got you there.
We had Justin Langer on on the pod.
It was fantastic. He was he was a great listen,
but he he just lent on the fact that he maybe felt England
lacked bit of a killer instinct in big moments into.
Do you agree with that at all oris is that just something that
(44:26):
maybe an Australian would say? Just have a little niggle I.
Think you just evolved, don't you really?
I think the India series, we hadour moments, that's true.
But give credit to the opposition.
You know some, I think there's some brilliant teams in Test
cricket now. I thought the win we had in New
Zealand last winter, you know, that New Zealand team is going
like that as well. Look at their bowling attack,
(44:46):
you know, we won that series. So I don't agree with that.
I just think that ultimately there's some bloody good teams
out there. This Australian team is going to
be really good and as you know, winning Test series is not easy
and you know you have those moments and you just got to be
on the right side of it. You need those moments of luck,
as are they. There'll be something, you know,
whether it's on the field, off the field, something.
(45:08):
There'll be a moment that happens that you can't plan for
or anything, but it might just be a drop catch here or there or
Nick that goes wide that you can.
There's so many moments. Or an injury to an opposition
player like Lion. We had it with, so if you look
at the emergence of Bethel, you know, you think when
opportunities come, it was we had Jordan Cox to go there as
(45:30):
the spare keeper batter. He gets injured, breaks his
finger. So then Pope ends up going there
and Bethel comes in at 3:00 and then you look at what talent he
is. So you're going to have the
luck. You just got to hope you're on
the right side of it. You just mentioned Jacob Bethel,
what makes him so special? Also, what about leadership
qualities? Obviously just being captain in
(45:51):
Ireland. Yeah, I think that when you
look, we talk about, you know, can you you talk about what we
want with players that can put bowlers under pressure, can soak
up pressure. Simple game, all of that right
mentality. He's got all of it.
You know when you watch him, he's got time.
He plays well off the back for if you just off, he can really
put you under pressure. So that's the part that we see.
(46:12):
And he's one of those passes, the 42nd Test where you just
think, wow, this kid could be amazing.
You know, then you look at him and the way that he carries
himself. So I sat round in the hotel was
when we stand in knots, the Hearts Hotel is it.
And he and Baz and a few of us are sitting round and they're
talking about facing bowlers in the Nets and that.
(46:33):
And Baz is like, you know, guys,I think, you know, you're saying
to Beth, you guys, you know, youcould end up facing bowlers in
the Nets a bit more that might help you.
And Beth's like, well, but actually this is what I think
about that. And This is why I think we need
the and I was like, Blimey, that's punchy from a 21 year.
And he did it in such a good way, so clear on what he was
(46:54):
about and how he's going to evolve.
But he's got a nice nature, as you know, with it.
He becomes someone, you know, you're looking at in the far
future really as potential leadership, but you also leaders
aren't just your captain. So he's a really important part.
He's a conduit between the Stokes and the younger
generation coming through. So he can start developing in
(47:15):
that, you know, and and there's a lot sort of made about him and
Pope that's going to be the story and stuff at the moment.
Pope, he's the one that's in possession of that.
There's a bit of cricket for Bethel to come.
We don't make these decisions till right before because
there's no point worrying and thinking about something until
you have to, you know, and that we did that before and we we
(47:37):
made a so when it was Johnny or Brookie for India.
Imagine if you like, you spend all this time months before
going, OK, let's do. And then all of a sudden, you
know, it was horrendous really for Harry Brook and he had
personal issues why he had to leave, but it's not why do we
worry about all of that decisionmaking until we had to?
So that's why we did that. But he looks just one of those
(48:00):
players that could be a generational talent.
Bethel in all formats, as we've seen.
It's a bit root like it when he was my age, he was the guy you
know, Thorpy picked him out as and you want to get them in that
environment as quick as possible, don't you really, as
you don't have to wait for the loads of runs in three seasons
of this and that like just like they can play so.
(48:21):
But you may have watched it cameup on my phone the other day,
Tendulkar catching that catch. Do you remember when he was like
16? He was like running.
He was like a one handed. One handed.
Swoop and locked over his. Head I might not have been born.
You wouldn't have been born he Iwas barely alive, but he was
like Headingley or somewhere. And Tendulkar's running around
catch is a great catch. He's when Capaldev hits 6 sixes
(48:42):
against Eddie or whatever it wasagainst Eddie Hemmings to avoid
the follow on. He's 16.
You know, I said Luke Littler's winning World Championships at
17. You know, Adam Scott, they they
reckon had his own plane at 21 from winning golf tournaments.
You know, like 2122 is not that young.
You know, there's a lot of very,I saw a thing, Quinton de Kock
(49:02):
playing at 21, you know, David Warner and all of these guys.
Too much about. Age so by a long way.
Either way, both ways, yeah. You know, and it's like and
actually experience, I think this when we're in employer
getting rant about employing people, like there's a thing we
can't hire that person. They haven't got any experience.
You go yeah, but what is you know, if you ask people, they
(49:22):
say what's he so and so like as a coach?
Yeah, they're all right. Yeah, they're not been too bad.
They've been in it for 1015 years.
You ask everyone, yeah, they're all right.
That experience is a really bad.That's not an endorsement to
hire that person. You know, you want someone who
says, oh, they're amazing or youtake a punt on someone who's on
the way up, you know, so it's itis, it's that thing about the
(49:45):
brain, like certainty. So when you see someone who's
got a whole track record of something, you're just much more
comfortable. It's much more uncomfortable to
have some. You don't know what's going to.
Happen. It's easier for that to go wrong
because you're like, well, it's this was meant to be this.
That's all we've got time for. For the Love of Cricket podcast
Rocky, a huge thank you to you. I wanted a little deal with you
(50:07):
before we sign off. That was really fascinating.
Loved every moment of this podcast.
If England win the Ashes, lift the Ashes in Sydney.
Can we have you back on the pod in January?
Oh. Come on, anytime.
Anytime, well, we need a bit of a break, a little bit of a gap
for me. All right, do do your rap then.
Let's see. Let's see.
No, I'm just going to say thanks, mate.
Well done. Yeah, you're brilliant.
(50:29):
Inspiring. Thanks, Kizi.
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