February 13, 2025 • 61 mins
Nael Atweh, founder of Grass-Fed Music, shares his journey and insights on artist management, the evolving music landscape, and the essential qualities for new artists. He emphasizes building trust, maintaining authenticity, and utilizing social media effectively to grow an audience.
• Nael's inspiring story from Toronto to success in the music industry
• Importance of a strong online following for artists
• Grass-Fed Music’s unique management approach centered on trust
• Strategies for effective social media usage to promote music
• Insights on the future of rock music and genre evolution
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rob Franklin (00:01):
Hi, my name's Rob Wardrums, franklin.
Welcome to Franklin's Garage toStage and Beyond podcast.
My co-host is Dana ThunderbaseFranklin.
Hey, dana, we got a specialguest today.
You want to go ahead andintroduce this guy for us,
please.
Dana Franklin (00:18):
I would love to With us.
Today, we have the privilege ofhaving the founder and CEO of
Grass-Fed Music, Niall Atway.
How are you doing, sir?
Nael Atweh (00:29):
Good, good, Wonderful.
Thank you for having me guysExcited to be on.
I've only done a few podcasts,so any opportunity to talk and
hear myself talk, I'm on board.
Rob Franklin (00:40):
Hey, we appreciate it.
I really do.
So, basically, can you tell usa little bit about yourself,
niall?
Nael Atweh (00:47):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So I'm originally from Toronto,canada.
I'm 40 years old.
I've been doing music since Iwas around 26.
I came up under a verysuccessful songwriter producer
named Nasri Atway, who's my bigbrother, and you know he started
as an artist, a dancer, thenmoved to New York, had some
(01:09):
success there, then moved to LA,and you know he's created some
incredible hits as a songwriterfor everyone, from Chris Brown
to Justin Bieber to Shakira.
Rob Franklin (01:19):
Oh, wow.
Nael Atweh (01:20):
To Lana Del Rey, to New Kids on the Block, to then
starting his own band calledMagic.
They had a big hit called Rudewhy you gotta be so rude.
Everyone knows that song.
And then I started in thebusiness, you know, yeah, just
managing producers, managingwriters, managing artists, and
(01:42):
really, you know, got into thisbusiness for a love of music.
I just didn't know I could makeit a career.
Rob Franklin (01:48):
Very good.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about like GrassFit Music
and what and what your companyis all about?
Nael Atweh (01:55):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Grassfit Music is your standardmanagement company.
We manage writers, artists,producers, mixing engineers.
Again, started in Torontorepresenting some upcoming
producers and writers.
My goal was to help them getmajor placements.
So songs with artists who weresigned to major labels.
This is like 14 years agoHelped people get deals, helped
(02:18):
people get placements and thenfrom there started developing
artists instead of just theproducers and the writers.
Took on some producers and thewriters, Took on some producers
and writers that did well.
Then took on artists that didwell.
Started developing an artistnamed Sabrina Claudio almost 10
years ago.
It's really what I cut my teethon.
She broke out as one of thebiggest R&B, progressive R&B,
(02:43):
soul singers in the world.
You know we've had countlessGrammys as a management company,
sold out tours, done someincredible things with
international artists.
We're also known for managingDJs.
We manage one of the biggestDJs named DJ Habi Beats, who is
basically an Arab-American DJthat mixes like Arabic music,
English music, African music,Brazilian music.
(03:05):
We also manage Afro House DJs,producers, songwriters.
So very unique managementcompany.
It's run by me and my wife,Elise Hayek, and we have an
incredible head of A&R namedNatalie.
So we're a very small companybut mighty, Always signing new
(03:27):
things, always on the cusp ofculture, but we are really
focused on developing andservicing our current clients
nice.
Rob Franklin (03:32):
Okay, I got a question for you do you actually
have a recording studio on siteor do you like work, or do you
like have a a recording studioyou basically work with?
How's that work?
Nael Atweh (03:46):
yeah, absolutely so.
Grass fed, as a managementcompany, doesn't own a recording
studio but, for example, ourour big songwriter nazri.
He has a wonderful spot in vannuys and then he has another
spot that's a built adu outsideof his house.
So we have multiple studioswith most of our producers.
Grass Fed actually operatesfrom our home.
(04:08):
We are a mom and pop company.
We're in Ventura County but,you know, probably three or four
days a week we're in West LA,but most of our producers and
writers and artists have accessto studios engineers, you know
it's part of the community in LA.
Everybody's helping each other,everybody is offering their
spaces for each other, somethingthat's a big part of why the
(04:30):
city is so great for earlydevelopment and growth.
But GrassVet has been fortunateto always have a place of work,
always have a place to create,and we pride ourselves on trying
to help others find a place towork very cool dana.
Rob Franklin (04:46):
What kind of questions you have for him yeah,
um.
Dana Franklin (04:49):
So you know, what exactly do you look for in a
band?
I mean, do you look for, youknow, personality, looks,
attitude, or is it basicallymainly just like the sound of
the band?
And is there certain genresthat you work with?
Nael Atweh (05:00):
yeah, I mean we're open to everything genre-wise.
What we're probably more knownfor at Grassbed is like R&B, pop
, a singer-songwriter.
So R&B is like your typicalusher or your singer-songwriter
is like your Ed Sheeran, or yourpop is your Taylor Swift.
Nowadays, most labels, mostmanagers are looking to see that
(05:24):
you have a following.
It's kind of an unfortunate butfortunate research tool that
you have to pay attention to.
You want to see that the artisthas a following, or, if they
don't have a following, they'revery active.
They're trying to build afollowing, and the reason for
that is no matter how talentedsomebody is, things just fall on
deaf ears if you don't have thepeople to listen to it.
(05:46):
So I usually try to find peoplethat I'm in love with.
I don't care if they're huge onInstagram or TikTok or big on
YouTube or already do shows orhave already done the Warped
Tour or whatever it may be.
I just need to fall in lovewith them.
I need to feel like I can go tobed with them.
I need to feel like I need tothink about them all the time.
(06:07):
I can't get them off my mind.
I want to help them.
I don't care how much moneythey make me because I believe
in the music, I believe in thestory, I believe in the artist.
But what happens quickly is thatbelief can run dry if the
artist is not willing to put inthe work.
Yes, you believe in their songs, yes, you believe in their
vision, but, for whatever reason, this artist doesn't feel like
(06:29):
they need to put in the work.
They don't need to post, theydon't need to create a podcast,
they don't need to be online,they don't need to make content.
They think that they're pastthat or they're stuck in the old
school business.
You know the rock and roll dayswhere there was only a few acts
that got through and if youdidn't know someone, you didn't
get through, and if you didn'thave budget for radio, you
(06:50):
didn't get through, and if youweren't on tour, nobody paid
attention to you.
But now we live in a time whereyou could be at home and you
could be making videos and youcould become a star because
people resonate with it.
So for me and the whole company,our job is to find people that
makes us feel something that webelieve in, that we trust.
They have our trust, theybelieve our strategies.
(07:11):
They don't think that we're outto take advantage of them.
They want to work with us.
They want to build their opensuggestions.
That's kind of where we makedecisions.
But sometimes you've got tolook at an artist's following
and say, hey, wow, got a millionfollowers on tiktok.
You haven't really broken onspotify.
Your music's not really takingoff yet, but you have the fan
(07:33):
base.
Let us help you find the bestmusic possible very cool.
Rob Franklin (07:38):
I love that at level of dedication I can tell
that's like in your voice forfor the bands that you work with
, that is that is so cool thankyou yeah, we can hear the past.
Dana Franklin (07:49):
The passion comes through just by listening to
you.
Nael Atweh (07:52):
Thank you, I'm trying I listen to tony robbins
every morning before I start myday I'm trying to help people
because I myself am liketormented by the music business,
tormented by you know, one ofthe things Tony Robbins said
today is like what's one thingthat you wish was better?
And I always say my career andit's like from the outside
(08:15):
people would say wait now.
You are successful, you do well, you obviously sell out tours,
you travel, but I'd always saythat I'm still missing that
credibility I feel I deserve.
I'm still missing that award,whether literally or emotionally
, that I feel I deserve.
There's still that feeling thatif I stop, things will fall
(08:37):
apart, you know.
So that's kind of the challengeof being in this music business
is you're always feeling likeyou haven't done enough.
So getting to that balance isreally, really difficult and you
have to have a really strongstate of mind every day,
otherwise the smallest thingwill just tip you off and then
you're right back to feelingdown on yourself.
(08:58):
And I'm not going to sit hereand pretend like I'm not a
victim of it or I don't comparemyself to others or I don't have
moments of weakness, but if Idon't just double down on like
no, stay positive, stay strong,believe in the music.
There has to be that.
We have to believe that theideas will work.
It can't just be who you know orthe business, or the
(09:19):
relationships, or how much moneyyou spent.
There has to be the idea thatgood ideas will still work.
And this is why the greatestbands you know, from U2 to you
know, queen, are still, you know, some of the greatest touring
acts of all time, because goodis good and it stays good for a
(09:40):
very long time.
And so trying to get there inthis day and age is difficult
and you have to have a reallystrong mindset to um deal with
the amount of failure that youwill see in a day, as any
independent artist deals withright now?
Rob Franklin (09:59):
uh, do you?
Um, how do you do like have ana and r person on staff that
actually goes out and looks fornew acts, or are you pretty much
relying on acts coming to you?
How does that work?
Nael Atweh (10:12):
Great question.
So, yeah, traditional A&Rhasn't really gone away.
I'd say across the musicbusiness there are A&R
personalities that are stilldoing what they would have done
back in the day.
Just now the tools aredifferent.
We have Instagram, tiktok,facebook, spotify, youtube.
You can easily message 20, 30artists in a day that you
(10:32):
discovered and then from thereyou figure out who's good At
GrassFed, one of our well, we'reonly a team of three and
Natalie.
She runs A&R for GrassFed.
She's young, she has greattaste in music and so she's
always putting me on tosomething.
Yo, check out this artist,check out this writer.
My friend's working with thisperson, but a lot of it is word
(10:53):
of mouth.
For example, our biggest client, sabrina Claudio, came to me
because, almost 10 years ago, afriend of hers said you should
email this guy now if you'relooking for a manager, and then
she emailed me, plus othermanagers, and then I responded.
Or, for example, our client, djHabby Beats.
He was someone that wasintroduced to me by a friend
who's not in music and he's likeyo, come to a party my birthday
(11:16):
party and meet this DJ, and Iwas like I've never worked with
DJs, but I fell in love with hisstory and his culture.
So a lot of times it's likethis kind of unexplainable force
that happens that you're notplanning and you then just go
with your gut instinct.
And then a lot of times youwent with your gut instinct, or
(11:37):
you took advice from an A&R, oryou took a shot on something
that you saw online, and itdoesn't work out because your
personalities clash.
So there's no one way ofdiscovering talent.
We pride ourselves at GrassFedon.
Rob Franklin (11:56):
We lost you there for a minute.
You still there.
I hate.
Nael Atweh (11:59):
Sorry about that, that's okay.
I would say we pride ourselveson.
Grassfed is trying to onlydiscover people that we don't
hate, that we can enjoy workingwith, but that itself is a
challenge.
So you just got to trust yourteam, your staff, your friends
that they'll send you goodthings.
And then sometimes you takeshots on things that nobody was
(12:21):
looking at.
Like I'm working with aColombian artist that nobody is
realizing is in front of themand I'm trying to, like, spark
something new from this artist,but it's a shot in the dark.
Rob Franklin (12:34):
Okay.
Dana Franklin (12:37):
So, as a manager, you know this podcast that we
do is generated towards, youknow, musicians starting out or
getting bands going, and maybesome that have been on the road
a little bit that may or may nothave ever had a manager.
What are the roles of a managerand what could they expect from
a company like yours if you'remanaging them?
Nael Atweh (12:57):
Yeah, great question .
So it depends on the type ofmanager.
Some managers are hands-off.
Hey, artist, tell me when youneed something and I'll manage
it.
Tell me when you have a dealcome through and I'll manage it.
Oh, when you have a show comethrough, I'll manage it.
At GrassFed, we do everything,we don't wait, we are hands-on.
So if we're working with a band, let's just say we're going to
(13:18):
do everything, from find themtheir band members, if they need
it, to finding them theirbooking agent.
So CEA, wme, william Morris,uta, finding them their lawyer,
finding them their businessmanager.
Reaching out to, if they needit, songwriters, producers,
mixing engineers, studio time,you know, going after brand
opportunities, coming up withsocial media plans, managing
(13:40):
their schedule, staying on topof them every day, you know,
asking questions, reaching outto other fellow artists and
creatives.
Now, every artist is different.
There are some artists thatdon't want that.
They want management to more orless handle just deals and
business opportunities and notbe day-to-day, because they
themselves kind of came up undersocial media instead of coming
(14:00):
up under doing shows and touring.
So they're used to handling aton of administrative or social
media instead of coming up under, you know, doing shows and
touring.
So they're used to handling aton of administrative or social
media details.
A lot of times what managers aredoing is just managing incoming
opportunities.
Oh, someone's reaching out fora show, someone's reaching out
to approve publishing on a song,or to figure out what the
(14:21):
credit is for the producer, orto you know, scream at you
whatever it is.
But a manager's job is to putout what the credit is for the
producer or to you know, screamat you whatever it is.
But a manager's job is to putout fires and technically start
them.
You know, so like that's what agood manager does.
We put out fires to maintain,but we start them so that we can
put them out.
You know it's kind of a viciouscycle, but a good manager to me
(14:41):
is an extension of the artist'sbusiness.
It's less a management but moreof a partnership, and that's
how you build trust to the pointwhere, even if you, for example
, want to leave music and starta real estate company, you would
bring your manager with you.
If you wanted to start apublishing company, you'd have
your manager run that for you.
(15:02):
If you wanted to start a label,you'd have your manager run
that for you.
You want to start a merchandisecompany.
So all the greatest successstories between artists and
management is when they're ableto flourish beyond just music
and grow together.
Because music is technicallylimiting in the sense of money.
You could only make so much,like even the biggest could only
make so much in comparison tosomeone who owns a tech startup.
(15:23):
It startup, right, it's likeyou know Taylor Swift.
Yeah, it makes half a billiondollars, but one CEO at one tech
startup makes that every month,right.
So it's like to do music isbecause you have a passion for
it, and if it's for money, thenyou and your manager can grow
that.
So it's limitless what a greatmanager could do.
I grasp that we really, reallyfocus on covering everything and
(15:46):
never leaving the clientfeeling like I can't go to them
for that because they don't dothat.
No, we do it, and if we don't,we'll figure it out.
Rob Franklin (15:52):
Wow, I love that passion and the idea.
So encompassing of every allthe needs of an artist.
That is just, that'soutstanding.
So at what point should let'sjust say you're a new band,
you've got a good following,you've got some recordings out
there At what point should youcontact a company like yours
(16:14):
Anytime?
Really, Okay, Me.
Nael Atweh (16:16):
I tell artists contact me.
The second you have an idea?
The second you feel ready.
The second you need a manager.
Don't be shy, reach out, sendmessages.
A lot of people will say, oh,don't reach out to managers,
they'll find you.
That's BS.
All the greatest managers,their clients, came to them
either via a friend, or thatclient had the guts to reach out
(16:37):
.
My biggest client reached outto me.
You know, my next biggestclient came from a friend.
I couldn't.
It's impossible for me to beeverywhere at all times.
I mean there's days where I'llsit on my laptop for three, four
hours and all I'm doing islistening to the newest music
that dropped on Spotify.
Spotify has a thing called NewMusic Friday and it comes out
Thursday at basically midnightworldwide time.
(17:00):
So I will be at 9 pm on aFriday listening to every new
artist because I'm like, ok,maybe I can find something that
I'm really excited about.
Then I'll reach out to themnine times out of 10.
They already have a manager.
So I always tell artists if youfeel you need a manager, you
feel you have talent, don't beshy.
If you feel you need a manager,you feel you have talent, don't
be shy.
Managers like me who are, youknow, we're doing amazing, but
(17:21):
there's bigger managers than me.
Those bigger managers willrespond to you.
So someone like me will alwaysrespond.
But don't be surprised when yougo and reach out to a huge
manager and you see that heresponds back because they are
thirsty for those opportunities.
So I tell artists when you feelyou have something, reach out.
But there's a lot of mistakesthat artists will make where
(17:44):
they will reach out because theysay, oh, I can't do any more
without a manager.
That's when you won't find amanager, when you're like oh,
there's no way I'm going to beable to get to that label
without a manager, there's noway I'm going to be able to get
to a Spotify playlist without amanager.
Or I'm not putting out thesesongs until I have a manager.
Once you start putting up allthose walls, no manager will be
interested in you.
(18:04):
So you want a manager becauseyou're just like I don't want to
take on this work.
I want to trust someone to takeit on for me and I want to make
them look good as an artist.
That's what managers arelooking for Someone who wants to
make them look good.
So I don't care how early it isin your career, you want to
make me look good and I want tomake you a ton of money.
Then we'll have a greatrelationship.
(18:26):
But, if your focus is what areyou bringing to the table for me
, Niall, then we'll have aterrible relationship.
So what you're basically sayingis be proactive and and and jump
in there early.
Oh yeah, man, I mean nothingbetter than jumping in early
because you build trust withthem.
Even if you make mistakes, theytrust you.
It's like someone great saidthis to me that how people act
(18:49):
the first time you meet them ispretty much who they are.
So if you meet someone for thefirst time and they're a liar
and they lie all the time, andthen, like you know, two weeks
later they try to act, like youknow, they're all nice and sweet
.
Likely they're going to alwayscome back to lying to you
because that's just who they are.
Or if someone meets you for thefirst time and they're sweet
and then they have a bad daythree weeks later, you know what
(19:10):
.
At their core they're a goodperson.
They just made a mistake.
So a lot of times that firstimpression is very important.
You get an idea of someone andyou get a feeling for them.
One thing I always look for istrust.
As, second, an artist doesn'ttrust me.
I can't work with them.
I can't even sleep at nightbecause I'm so upset that they
don't trust me.
And I can't believe that I'mworking for free.
(19:33):
Basically, I've made no moneyfrom you.
I believe in you, yet you stilldon't trust me.
I can't work with you, nomatter how much value you think
you're worth or how much I'mgoing to lose out.
Thank God I've never, ever,actually lost out on an artist
that suddenly didn't trust me.
They ended up suffering and Iwas right that they should have
(19:54):
trusted me, or trusted thefuture me or the future manager
like me.
So trust is everything.
I don't care about any otheraspect of it.
You just have to have trust forthat person who's working for
you, because it's kind ofdelusional to think that a
person working off commissioncan just guarantee results.
Like you're already startingoff in a very weird place.
(20:18):
Like you should just let themdo their thing and and and and
hope for the best results.
And when things don't work, isit the manager's fault or the
music's fault?
and the best artists believeit's the music fault and the
ones who struggle believe it'sthe manager's fault or the
label's fault yeah, and so yougot to decide what side of the
story you're going to be on, ifyou're going to be an artist in
(20:39):
this day and age.
Rob Franklin (20:41):
Wow love your attitude.
Dana Franklin (20:44):
So talking about cost and I just heard you throw
out commission is that how youare based as far as the money
from it?
Are you commissioned based fromwhat the artist might make, or
is there a fee up front?
How does that work?
Nael Atweh (20:59):
No, we're commissioned.
Only, we do run a smallconsulting division at GrassFed
where we consult for like fiveartists a month.
That's totally separate.
It's not something we promote,it's something we've been doing
for a very long time and thoseare just consulting.
Artists hire us, we consult forthem.
But yes, management business isa 20% standard commission.
(21:19):
It could be 15%, it depends.
If you're like a really bigclient, I'd be happy to take a
lesser percentage.
I'd be happy to take a 5% if Ibelieve in you and I feel that
there's a story to be told.
I don't ever take on clientsbecause of money I'm willing to
lose because I believe in them.
But the standard is 20%.
(21:40):
In the US it's like 20% offgross.
You make a dollar, they make20%.
You make $100, they make 20%.
But I'm also the type ofmanager that stands behind my
clients.
If my client's like, hey, nowI'm struggling this month, do
you mind just not takingcommissions for two months, I'm
like, yeah, no problem, what doyou need?
You know we've had clients.
One of my clients in the UKnamed Ethan.
(22:02):
When I met him he, you know,was having a couple you know
financial issues.
So I made it my focus to gethim out of those financial
issues.
I didn't worry aboutcommissions or anything like
that.
I worried about him paying hisbills, because I knew if he
couldn't pay his bills, there'sno way he's going to write great
songs or he might, but theymight come through struggle, or
(22:22):
he's going to be worrying aboutthe wrong things, and so it was
very important for me to get himout of that situation.
So our commissions don't meananything unless you're making
money, obviously.
So really the work is whatdictates the future income, and
I've always noticed, when youget artists out of their
financial issues, they're sohappy to pay you.
(22:42):
If anything.
Rob Franklin (22:44):
They want you to take on more responsibility,
because they realize the valueit brings to them, right, cool,
okay, so say you're a brand-newband but you're not in, like say
us, for instance, you're notlocated in the LA area.
Do you guys actually offer withbooking opportunities as well
(23:04):
in your management portfolio?
Nael Atweh (23:07):
Managers don't do bookings.
Managers will facilitatefinding you a booking agent.
I'm almost sure there's like alaw in California where managers
can't book shows.
We can go and, for example,reach out to a festival, reach
out to a buyer, but we can't goand hit up promoters and start
(23:27):
booking shows for our artists.
Artists can do that, they canhit up promoters directly
themselves.
But normally there's importantpillars for any artist.
Let's say a band, the numberone pillar.
When I say a band, a band,meaning, like you know, there's
more than one member.
They're not a pop artist.
You know.
The first, most importantpillar is okay, can we get you
an agent?
A lot of times with bands youfind them an independent agent,
(23:50):
an upcoming agent, a local agent.
Now they're doing local showsand then you're growing and you
become then a household band andnow you're getting booked and
you're getting on festivals,whereas, like a pop artist,
let's say, you're not thinkingabout putting them on the road
right away.
You're not thinking aboutgetting them a booking agent.
You got to get them a followingfirst, you got to get them a
fan base or you got to get themgreat songs.
(24:12):
See, bands have different waysof entering the music business.
They can be unknown but havedone 150 shows where there's no
such thing as a pop artist who'sunknown, who's done 150 shows.
It's very rare, it's tooexpensive, it's too difficult
and it's not really rewardingthe way just being online is.
So if I'm going to take on anact or a band or a singer, you
(24:36):
know I'm always going to do mydue diligence in the sense of
setting up their main pillars ofsuccess.
So pillar one is booking agent,pillar two, lawyer.
Pillar three, business manager.
Pillar four, label.
And if we can get thosehappening for my relationships,
amazing.
But if not, that means we needto build a following so that
(24:58):
when I go back around they'reexcited to work with that client
.
Rob Franklin (25:02):
And what's your typical process for social media
?
Obviously it's social media,but do you have a formula you
guys follow to developfollowings for new artists?
Nael Atweh (25:15):
We don't have a formula, but we try to tell
artists to be genuine.
That's the most important, thereason why anything can do well.
You guys are starting a newpodcast.
It has 2,500 downloads.
That's amazing.
It's because you're justtalking about ideas that people
resonate with and there's somuch room for new ideas.
There's so much room forpodcasts.
(25:37):
Who would have thought, in aday and age of TikTok, social
media, micro content, short formcontent, that there'd be people
listening to, for example, joeRogan or Call Her Daddy, where
it's three-hour podcasts,two-hour podcasts?
And people are not bored,they're enjoying it.
So there's a form of expressionthat people really want.
(25:58):
For me, I wish we knew how togamify social media in the sense
of like can we do it over andover again?
There's plenty of companies whodo, but they always fall short
when it comes to the music.
That's one thing you can'ttrick.
No matter what you do.
You cannot trick people to saythis song is a hit, this song
(26:20):
isn't.
When ACDC would put out analbum, everyone knew there would
be four solid songs, but therewouldn't be 12 hits.
It's impossible, right?
So we're in the same world nowwhere you know social media is
important.
If you're willing to postmultiple times a day three to
four times a day then you willsee better results.
(26:41):
But that doesn't mean you'llhave better ideas.
That doesn't mean the musicwill be better, but you might
have a fan base.
So I always tell artists juststart from an organic place.
What's important to you?
What do people not know aboutyou?
A simple thing I tell artistsdo is write your name on a piece
of paper.
Write as many things thatpeople don't know about you as
possible good, bad, ugly,whatever they are and then go
(27:02):
look at your socials, go listento your music.
Show me that any of that isthere and if it's not, you know
where to start.
You know you're not beingvulnerable enough and we don't
want to accept it.
But the reason why big artistsare big is because they are
unapologetically themselves andand that's why we see them.
You don't see the same artistsover and over again.
(27:22):
You don't see 10 taylor swifts.
There's only one, becausepeople won't enjoy the ninth,
eighth, the seventh, the sixththat are trying to be like her.
They want something different.
People want, don't they?
They have their drake, but thensome people want their kendrick
Lamar, and it's because both ofthem are unapologetically
themselves and they figured outhow to now make that public.
It's like you guys are brothers, but you're different, right?
(27:45):
And how do you?
If you started acting like eachother, people wouldn't know
who's who.
But the more you act likeyourselves, the more they can
appreciate Robert, the more theycan appreciate Dana, the more
they can appreciate who you are.
So being unapologetic, beingyourself, is the key to growing
online, but you also have to beconsistent.
So that's the hard part.
Most artists are themselves,but they refuse to post every
(28:07):
day, they refuse to be active,they refuse to put themselves
out there, they refuse to bevulnerable or to be corny, or to
be cringe, or to do somethingthat's out of their comfort zone
.
And then they hit a wall andthey're like why isn't anybody
seeing me?
I'm like well, you want them tosee you through this very, very
specific lens instead ofallowing them to choose what
lens works for them.
(28:28):
And so this is how we have newartists every year popping up
and become phenomenons or becomecultural sensations, where
they're bands, singers, rappers,international artists,
bilingual artists, and it'sbecause of that.
Oh, that's new.
Oh my God, I've never seen thatbefore.
I love that.
I love that.
I haven't seen that before.
I resonate with that now, andif suddenly that thing stops
(28:50):
feeding you, then you won'tresonate with it anymore.
And that's how simple we are.
It's not that complicated, butyou do have to find the truth
online but then also combat itwith consistency.
Consistency is where mostpeople fail.
That's where, most of the time,you don't see results when
there's zero consistency.
Rob Franklin (29:12):
Wow so much great advice.
Man, it's really a pleasurespeaking to you.
You've got so much insightfulinformation that I'm really
appreciating this, and I'm sureour listeners will as well.
Dana, what other questions doyou have for Niall?
Dana Franklin (29:27):
Well, I would like to know.
There's always a moment ineverybody's career where they're
like the light bulb goes on orit's like an aha.
Do you have a moment thatsomething just clicked and you
and you knew that?
Hey, this is what I want to do,this, this is who I am good
question I love that question.
Nael Atweh (29:45):
Um, I absolutely do so.
I always knew at a young age II grew up in toronto, canada.
My brother is a very successfulsongwriter producer.
I remember in we went back hometo Nazareth and we went to go
see our family and my brotherwas making music.
He was writing songs on yellowpaper, writing different lyrics
(30:08):
out, and I was like, oh, I wantto write lyrics too, and I
started writing with him, butthen within five seconds my
attention span went away.
And then a year passed and he'sstill doing it.
Two year passed, he's stilldoing it.
Two year past, he's still doingit.
Now he's taking dance classes.
Now he's taking voice lessons.
Now he's doing modeling.
Now he's doing wow, my brother's44, so you know he's cut from
the cloth of before social media, before spotify, before
(30:31):
anything.
You know he was gettingheadshots done.
He got scammed by people andbut we grew up always loving pop
music.
We were the arab kids that wouldlisten to backstreet boys and
sing and you could on the blockwe were kids, but I was also the
kid that was getting into afight and then come home all
bloody and I'd start singingbackstreet boys and my brothers,
(30:52):
I was a very bizarre kid.
So I always had this feelingthat I was meant to be a part of
entertainment, meant to be apart of music, but I just didn't
have the guts to do it.
I didn't have the stamina orthe belief in myself that it was
real.
I just always thought it was apipe dream and like, come on,
stop.
(31:12):
Like go get a job, go sell youknow whatever you can sell.
Go a job, go sell whatever youcan sell, go make money.
And I did that for a long time.
And when I was around 24, 25, Ikept seeing my brother
succeeding and I kept seeing himgrow and he was always defying
everyone.
Everyone doubted him, everyonetold him he wouldn't be a great
(31:34):
artist, everyone told him togive up on music.
He didn't have friends the wayI did.
He was kind of bullied bypeople who didn't believe in him
and he just steadfast, just tentoes down, refused to give up.
And so when I saw him havinghis first moment, which was
basically reviving the group NewKids on the Block and they
decided to come back as a groupbecause of his music and he
(31:56):
produced their whole album forthem.
I said, hey, there's anopportunity here, I can do this.
I don't need to be scared ofentertainment and I've spent my
whole life understanding popculture, music, songwriting,
movies, tv shows.
I mean still to this day I'mlistening to multiple albums in
a day and watching a movie everynight before I go to bed, or
(32:17):
the latest TV show I don't missa beat.
And so I realized that that wasbeneficial to music.
And then, growing up as, like atough kid, I had a tough dad, I
had very tough friends, I wasjust a leader automatically.
When I met these very you knowkudos to them, but insecure
producers, insecure artists andmusicians and scared people, and
(32:39):
they just saw that I wasconfident and fearless and
willing to scream at people andget into fights but also be
their champion.
So I kind of fell into the lapof being a manager by servicing
people who I felt needed helpand I just said what do you need
?
And then they told me what theyneeded and I went after it for
them and then that resulted inthem trusting me.
(33:01):
So I really got into thisbusiness from a place of fear,
but I always reminded myselfwhen I was a kid, I used to
watch.
I know this sounds so corny, butI used to watch Backstreet Boys
and NSYNC and I'd watch theirVH1 specials and I would cry and
I'd be like, oh man, why can'tthat be me?
Why can't that be behind stagewith these guys?
(33:21):
Why can't that be doing thesethings?
I would dream to just high fivethem as they walk off stage,
because we did this thingtogether.
And then you know, 15 yearslater, I did that exact thing.
I sold out, I developed a boyband, sold out the Roxy for
three nights in a row in LosAngeles and I made sure that my
videographer filmed mehigh-fiving every one of them as
(33:43):
they walked off stage.
Rob Franklin (33:45):
Very cool.
Nael Atweh (33:46):
And it's the same thing with Coachella.
You know, I wanted to go toCoachella.
I couldn't get a ticket.
I begged everyone.
Years of begging people.
I felt down on myself.
I couldn't get a ticket toCoachella.
So I said I'll never ask for aticket again until I'm on the
stage with my artist.
And then the next year we wereon the main stage with my artist
and I never had to ask for aticket again because we
(34:07):
performed that day.
So you know, my entire story islike I did what I was scared of.
I kept doing what I was scaredof Every day.
I got to do what I was scaredof every day.
I got to do what I was scaredof man, the amount of demons I
have to deal with in a dayinternally to then be able to be
a force for everyone, bepositive for everyone.
That's in itself a full-onmental exercise.
(34:30):
But the fact that I get to makemoney from music and from art
is insane.
So if there's some months oryears that I make a little less,
but I'm still doing what I love, I'm all for it, because I know
, you know, that 10,000 or I'dsay nowadays 20,000 hours was
worth every, every, every, everymoment, every hour, every
(34:51):
minute, every second.
Rob Franklin (34:52):
Wow, I love that story and that drive you have.
That's impressive, it really is.
Dana Franklin (34:58):
Yeah, you know that is.
You know.
I mean a lot of people aregoing to, you know, listen to
this podcast and get inspired bythis.
What would they need to do?
What kind of a quality demowould they need to do to submit
to a company like yours to getinterest?
Nael Atweh (35:17):
I mean, what kind of quality does it need to be?
Guys, if anyone is actuallylistening to me, or listening or
resonating with what I'm saying, do not care, I do not care
about any of those things.
You have a song idea, a voicenote, a scratchy thing?
You put it on a freakingcassette tape for some reason.
Send it to me.
Just just listen to your heart,don't listen to your you know
strategic brain that you think Ineed a perfect song to fall in
(35:41):
love with it.
Never one of my biggest artists.
Her first album was only onsoundcloud, before it ever was
on apple and spotify, and I had,and the whole industry was
chasing her.
So it's nothing.
Nobody cares about those things.
It's just that what artists dowhen they don't want to post,
when they don't want to post,when they don't want to create
content, when they don't want tobe relevant, they just want to
keep like picking at the samething that they don't need to
(36:03):
pick at.
Oh, it's not mixed, oh, it'snot.
The amount of times artistswill send me a song and tell me
to go listen to it in my car.
I won't.
I never will listen to them.
I say you're trying to trick meto like your song I don't need
big speakers to like your song.
If I don't like it on my phoneor on my laptop, it's not a good
song.
Right, right I don't need bigspeakers to tell me something is
(36:24):
good.
That's crazy talk, you know,and so there isn't any criteria
when it comes to me inparticular, I am always
responding.
A hundred artists could DM meafter this podcast and I will
listen to all hundred of them.
I will go through every one ofthem.
I don't need to message themback if I don't like it per se,
(36:45):
um, and I would think that'slike a sign for the artist to
keep working.
But also, if that artist wantsto hit me a hundred more times,
I'll respond a hundred moretimes.
So do not limit yourself tothink that songs need to be
mixed, mastered, perfect demos.
You could do them on voice note, you could do them on your
phone, I don't care.
There are many artists who have10 million monthly listeners
(37:08):
that recorded everything ontheir phone, many, many of them.
So there isn't any rulesanymore.
It goes back to what I said.
Do you believe in something?
Are you being vulnerable?
Are you being consistent?
Keep trying until it works.
Oh, it didn't work, it's themusic's fault.
Go back to the music, keeptrying, keep trying.
And then, of course, mixing,mastering.
(37:28):
These are all parts offinishing a song, but it doesn't
define a song.
I've seen many albums come outthat weren't mixed.
No mix Demo.
They put it out and it doesreally well.
So there's no rules, it's justgood ideas.
Good is good, bad is bad.
Period, no one can tell me thata mix will make a song better.
(37:49):
It will make the song better inthe literal sense, but it won't
make the melody, the lyrics,better.
Nothing will change that song.
Right?
Bohemian Rhapsody could beremixed a thousand times and it
would be better to the ears ofan engineer, but it would never
change the melodic structure ofthe song.
Rob Franklin (38:10):
That makes it one of the greatest songs in history
.
Okay, cool.
What's your opinion as far asthe direction of music?
My brother and myself we'rerock musicians.
We're diehard rock musicians.
We write a lot of good material, but rock seems to be kind of
in the background nowadays.
Do you feel like history isgoing to repeat itself and it's
going to have a resurgence inthe future?
Nael Atweh (38:33):
I think it has and it is.
I think, the way the mediaworks is that you only see the
most popular things.
But there are more bandstouring than ever before.
There are more rock bandstouring than ever before.
Now the genre of rock hasadjusted.
Some would say 1975 is a rockband right.
(38:55):
They're like a UK kind of poprock band.
You know, some would say HarryStyles is a rock star because he
has like a 20-piece band whenhe does a show.
So the evolution of a rock starhas changed.
But I'd say the genre of rocklike, let's say specifically
rock, like you know, that ismore instrument-based and you
(39:16):
know it's not.
Like you know, know these veryspecific hip-hop or urban or or
pop drums is doing extremelywell and growing extremely fast
because their playlists havejust become a beacon of like
catalog that is still relevant.
And so what's happening atspotify or apple or title or
(39:38):
youtube?
There are people who arededicating to growing these
genres and, yes, rock is one ofthe smaller ones, but it hasn't
even, in my opinion, slowed downremotely on the road.
There are acts doing, you know,like X Ambassadors or Imagine
Dragons.
People would say ImagineDragons is a rock band right.
(39:59):
But it's because the songs aremelodic and poppy.
You don't put it in thatcategory.
So rock has just transitionedto be more like clean and more
pop friendly, and then you kindof have to just do a lot of
digging to find the ones thatmaybe feel nostalgic or feel
like a little bit you know more,not what you're used to Like.
(40:23):
For example, there's a soloartist named Grandson.
You know he's a good friend ofmine and I'd say to me he's a
rock star.
You know like the way heperforms and does his shows.
He's what you'd expect fromlike Beastie Boys back in the
day and yes, they were like ahip-hop act, but they were also
rock stars.
So it it just depends on youknow the style.
(40:45):
But I think there's room forgood ideas, no matter what.
I think the state of the musicbusiness is in an amazing place.
Just because I believe in musicand I don't believe in the
business, so I nothing will everlike unless somehow AI takes
over, like the job of an artist,meaning the one who's on stage,
(41:05):
the one who's behind camera.
I think we're in a good placeand we could only be in a better
place and you can easily carveout what works for you and
sustain a whole career withouthaving to worry about what
doesn't work for you.
If you're like, hey, I'm rockspecific or I'm only catering to
a certain age group, trust me,that age group is out there for
you and you can find them.
(41:25):
You can put in the work andfind them.
I had a thought the other daythat I could sign a 75-year-old
man who can sing and make himinto a 75-year-old version of Ed
Sheeran.
Why not, If the ideas are?
good if the story is there,people resonate with it.
Guess what?
On my TikTok, every other weekI find a man, a senior citizen,
(41:45):
who's doing covers and they havelike 2 million views and now
they have a career.
So there's.
So I so I believe in the state.
I believe the state of music isin a fantastic place.
Of course, there's just a lotof satire.
There's a lot of music beingput out.
There's 150,000, they say150,000 releases on Spotify a
(42:05):
day, but somehow our communityof managers let's say 500
managers in the music businesswe still are squeezing out the
relevant ones.
So I think the state of rock,the state of all genres are as
healthy as the artist who'screating and decides them to be
wow, okay, cool.
Rob Franklin (42:25):
So basically, like you said earlier, if it's good,
it's good.
You know, if it's good, it'sgood, people are going to relate
to it.
Nael Atweh (42:29):
So so I yeah, I, I agree 100, but the difference is
now is it can be good and noone hears it yeah so you have to
choose as an artist.
What are you going to do aboutthat?
Right, that's an open-endedassignment.
Hey, what are you going to doabout it?
I know the music is good.
Well that's when we come tosomebody like you, right, but
(42:50):
then a lot of times, what thoseartists will do is go, I don't
know.
Can you get a label to sign me?
Can you get me on a playlist?
And I'm like, no, I can't.
You have a thousand followerslike.
You need to get these fansseeing you right now.
So we had a drummer that weworked with and she was an
amazing drummer.
So we we got her to shootdrumming videos four times a
week, but she only did heroriginal songs and then from
(43:12):
there, people.
But she blew up and all thecomments were people in their
40s and 50s going wow, bringingback old school drumming and
rock videos and rock music.
I love this.
And she was able to like findthat audience.
Now she still has the job ofcreating hits and getting past
this social media stage, but now.
(43:34):
But she has her foot in thedoor.
So you know that that part iswhere it could be daunting,
where it could be reallydifficult on any artist to be
like well, we all agree thismusic's amazing, but no one is
agreeing online.
I don't have a fan base.
It's not moving the needle.
So you have a choice to say I'mgoing to put up 50 videos in
the next two weeks on tiktok andinstagram to get people to
(43:56):
discover it, or I'm going to goback to the drawing board and
make even better music, butnothing changes when it comes to
how to get people to see it.
So that's the challengenowadays is that you might be as
good as that rock group 20years ago that all they needed
to do was get one phone callwith an anr and boom, they have
a business um now you have to,like you know, find those
(44:21):
millions of anrs meeting yourfans online that discover you,
to then get an an article.
Wait, I see people like you.
I like you too.
Let's do a deal, you know, andlet's try to make your music,
you know, come to fruition.
So it's a challenge, but it's.
It's a worthy challenge ifyou're in it for the right
reasons.
Rob Franklin (44:41):
What would be a realist oh go ahead Dana.
Dana Franklin (44:44):
I was going to say.
It sounds like that old adageis like you miss every shot you
don't take.
I mean, you've got to putyourself out there to get hurt
period.
Nael Atweh (44:53):
Facts 100%, and there are artists who are
fortunate.
They didn't have to do too much.
But we only see the successstories.
We don't see the losses.
Imagine labels and managementcompanies just posted hey guys
just want to let everyone knowhow many failed artists we had
this week, how many failedartists we had this year.
So all we see is the losses andI do think there's value to
(45:14):
seeing the failures, to seeingthe things that don't do well,
so artists can remind themselvesthat labels are only showing
you what worked, not what didn't.
So it's so easy to get caughtup in what everyone else is
doing, but you're realizing thatthat label also had 900 other
things that didn't do well.
That day, you know, but that'snot.
Their job was to show you that.
(45:34):
It's not my job.
The amount of rejections I getas a manager every week oh my
god, if I were to, I thought itwould.
The amount of rejections I getas a manager in a week.
Oh my God.
I thought it would be funny todo an Instagram post, you know,
once a week, of like the 20failed emails this week, you
know.
But it's like people just don'tdo that because no one's
interested in that.
(45:54):
Oh, no one responded to you, oryou know, they just want to see
the big things and then comparethemselves to those Instead of
saying bet you, the label's gotlike 50 artists that did
absolutely nothing.
I can only imagine how difficultit is for them.
I should be grateful that Istill have a career.
I still pay my bills.
I just need to beat thegreatest thing I've ever made,
(46:16):
and when artists accept thatthey usually get past it I've
ever made, and when artistsaccept that they usually get
past it.
But when artists don't thinkthey need to beat what they've
made and they think the industryis the issue, that's when they
don't get results.
So you know that obsession overyour vision, over the music,
over making a better and overpromoting it, that's the key to
growing in this game.
(46:37):
It's not hoping thatgatekeepers or myself or you
know your podcast or gives themthat boost they need, you're
going to always fall flat.
Rob Franklin (46:46):
Okay.
So, speaking of which, whatwould be a realistic expectation
if you have, say, greatmaterial you think you've put
out there on all the socialmedias?
What would be a realisticexpectation for, like the amount
of hits you should get on it,in your opinion?
Nael Atweh (47:02):
uh, that's a tough one, you know.
Listen, I've seen follow peoplewho have 2 000 followers and
their song has 3 million streams.
So something will just happenonline where a tiktok sound will
take off, an instagram soundwill take off.
You end up on a meme page.
Someone reposted you, someonedid a review, someone did a
podcast and people are going toit.
(47:24):
I mean, let's hope this podcastcomes out and goes viral and
people are fascinated by thestory and from there suddenly I
become more of a popular personfrom one thing that I said.
So there's so many versions oflike scalability or you know,
setting goals to try to hit them.
Normally in the music businesswe never like set.
(47:46):
Okay, we need to get 100,000followers.
We need to do a million streams,because it's like impossible to
like guarantee that.
But a lot of artists will setthose goals for themselves.
They'll be like I want to getverified, I want to have a
million followers, I want tohave, you know, 10,000 monthly
listeners, and they usually knowthat the only way to get there
(48:07):
is through consistent postingSometimes.
Okay, let's get you on NewMusic Friday, which is like what
Spotify offers as like aneditorial support system.
Hey, we have employees thatbasically look over these
thousand plus playlists that wecan curate and put personally
artists that we think would makesense for those playlists.
(48:28):
Then Spotify has a thing calledalgorithmic support where,
based off of your algorithm, youend up in these other playlists
that then give you support.
And then there's people whocome to your page and follow you
and save your songs or playlistyou.
So there's many ways to likeactivate that growth.
It's just kind of it's prettydifficult to like scale.
(48:50):
Okay, could you run ads?
That might work.
Could you put out acousticversions of the songs you put
out?
That might work.
Could you remaster songs?
Could you you, you know spendmoney on marketing or billboards
?
There's so many ways to get it,but we try our best not to set
like specific follower goals or,you know, spotify goals more or
(49:13):
less.
We set like output goals.
Okay, can we get you postingconsistently?
Can we challenge you withcontent?
Can we find you the bestproducers, the best writers?
And a lot of times, whathappens to artists?
They do one video that doeswell, they learn what works, and
then it just clicks and thenthey just, they just, they're
just, they're just like obsessedwith now staying on that path
(49:34):
because they've gotten thereward of the fans.
Getting there is very difficultand I don't know it's like I
have.
No, I as a management company,we don't have some secret sauce
to guide an artist to go viral.
We actually truly rely on theartists to handle that.
Our job is to motivate them,make sure they don't get down on
themselves, make sure they'renot like beating themselves up
(49:56):
over it and they're stayingconsistent okay, now is there a.
Rob Franklin (50:01):
Is there a particular formula that artists
should really pay attention toas far as when to put out new
material?
Nael Atweh (50:08):
no okay put it out when you think it's ready, okay,
but don't put it out on deafears, meaning like, do not just
put up a song and think peopleare going to hear it.
It's not going to happen.
You need to.
If I would say a basic formulafor releasing a new song, let's
just say we're putting out asong in four weeks from now.
I would say for the next fourweeks you should put up a
(50:31):
minimum of one post on TikTokand maybe two, maybe one every
single day on TikTok and maybeone every other day on Instagram
until it comes out.
That sounds daunting, but youshould be promoting that song
Now, not promoting a clip fromthe music video that you shot,
(50:51):
and not promoting some fancyartwork that you created.
Nobody cares about that.
People want a story, peoplewant to feel something.
So we call it in the musicbusiness, performance videos.
You performing in front of yourphone, in front of your camera,
at a supermarket, at a store,at a grocery store, in the mall,
in a parking lot, and you'refilming yourself and you're
(51:14):
shooting a portion of the songand you're singing the lyrics,
or you're singing it acapella,or you're telling the story of
the song, or you're sharing howyou made it with a producer, or
you're having a party withfriends and they're reacting to
it, or your parents are reactingto it.
You just got to find that veinthat taps into something where
people resonate with it.
(51:35):
They're like, oh my god, wow,dana put up this video of a song
he's putting out next month andI really resonate with that.
I can't wait.
Now.
You have a pre-save campaign.
Now people are pre-saving thesong that is coming out based
off of the story that you toldonline.
So I always tell artists justdedicate at least 15 pieces of
(51:55):
content before the song comesout.
Try everything to get people tosee it.
And then make sure you're notmissing out on anything.
Update your socials.
Stay on your Instagram.
Make sure your bio's there havea contact there, you know.
If you have a website, makesure it's updated.
If you're not on YouTube, putup YouTube videos.
Think long form, short formstory posts.
(52:15):
Be on Twitter.
You know, you know, be yourself.
Act like posts.
Be on twitter.
You know, you know, be, beyourself.
Act like a normal person.
Don't make all your posts aboutjust singing and songwriting
and and art, and you got to showthat you're regular and that
you have a life and that youhave friends, and that's what
people want.
They just want to findsomething they've never seen
before, and sometimes peoplejust want to be entertained.
That's why you see someone whois a cover artist get 10 million
(52:38):
views on a song on YouTube, buttheir originals have no views,
and it's because they just knowhow to sell the cover more than
anything else.
And those people are listeningto that cover, not because they
want to discover new music.
They just want to enjoy a songthey love.
So you've got to find whatworks for you, but I truly
believe that there is unlimitedroom for new artists who are
(53:02):
willing to put in the work.
Rob Franklin (53:05):
Awesome.
Wow, that is awesome, Dana.
Do you have anything else fornow?
Dana Franklin (53:11):
I think the last question I have is you know
we've always tried to, on everypodcast we do, to say something
that's you know, come up in ourcareers something that's really
funny or sad that's happened tous at some point.
One story that just resonateswith your career is something
(53:32):
you can laugh at, or somethingthat was a moment where you just
sat in your room and criedbecause something happened.
Do you have something like thatyou can share with us?
Nael Atweh (53:40):
Oh God Too many.
Just sat in your room and criedbecause something happened.
Do you do something like thatyou can share with us?
Oh god, too many.
One of the more like sad butsomewhat light-hearted stories
was I was managing anddeveloping a boy band and it was
called boy band project and Ihad so many huge opportunities
for them where labels wanted tosign them, everybody wanted to
work with them and I had thetrust of the boys, but I didn't
(54:02):
have the trust of the parentsand the parents were helicopter
parents who thought each one oftheir kids were better than the
last kid, or better than the kidin the group, of course.
And so there was a day where Igot stung by a wasp and I'm
allergic to wasps and I wascovered in hives from head to
toe and I'm sitting in my ghettoapartment at the time, barely
(54:25):
making $1,300 a month when I was30 years old.
So perspective for people whothink you know that they're
broke right now is 30 years old,barely able to pay my rent and
engage to my wife.
I'm sitting beside my my fianceat the time, who is now my wife
, and my partner in my company,covered in hives, literally
crying tears, trying to explainto these parents that I'm not
(54:47):
screwing them over, that I'mdoing what's best for their kid
and that what we're doing is theright thing.
But every one of them refusedto trust me and they actually
took my sickness that I wasdealing with as a form of
weakness and said, no, we don'twant to work with you anymore,
and tried to even file to thepoint of like a lawsuit and I
(55:11):
just, I just let it go at thattime because I felt that I
wasn't going to devalue myselfon something that is very
important.
So it was detrimental for myyou know career at that time to
give up on something that Ibelieved in so much.
But when I saw that my healthwasn't a priority to them, I
(55:34):
realized that I could only giveso much to people.
You know that will give it backto me when I need them the most
, you know.
So it was a great learninglesson on how to develop acts,
how to deal with parents, how tobe a tough personality.
But it was also a kind of sadmoment that when you're at your
(55:55):
worst, people who don't believein you, people who don't trust
you, won't care.
They won't be concerned withyour health.
They'll only be concerned withwhat they want.
And you know I wish the best,you know, for anybody who deals
with that internally.
But I've never seen them proveme wrong, you know.
So I've never, ever seen asingle person who thought you
(56:21):
know me or anyone that was agood manager was suddenly like,
oh, it ought to hurt them.
And then they leave the managerand now they're killing it and
they're doing well.
Actually, all of those kids andall of their parents quit music
and not one of them arepursuing music.
Not one of them are doinganything with their careers.
Are pursuing music.
Rob Franklin (56:40):
Not one of them are doing anything with their
careers.
Nael Atweh (56:42):
So I'll always have a place in my heart for wasps,
if they ever sting me or bees,if they ever sting me, because
it will remind me of like thatmy heart is in the right place
and I only need to work withpeople who are in line with me.
Dana Franklin (56:52):
Great story, awesome All right In closing,
niall.
Rob Franklin (56:56):
Hey, number one, we really appreciate your time.
And number two, what would be,in your opinion, best advice for
a new artist going forward,wanting to get to the point of
working with somebody like you.
Nael Atweh (57:11):
Yeah, my advice to you is, like all artists, be
yourself.
Do not try to be anybody else.
Stop trying to fit in with whatother people are doing.
Stop caring what everyone elseis doing.
Make music that you believe in.
Be honest with the managersthat you believe in.
Be vulnerable, ask a lot ofquestions, realize that you have
a lot more power than you think.
(57:31):
Don't be shy to reach out topeople like me.
Don't be shy to put yourselfout there and when you meet that
person, trust them, open yourdoor to them, open your
pocketbook in the sense.
Don't be shy to let them intoyour schedule, into your
personal life.
If you close off to them,they'll close off to you.
Managers have no time to waste.
They will quickly not want towork with you if you, they feel
(57:53):
you don't trust them.
So you have to have that trustfactor from day one and if you
don't, then really focus on it,on it.
Put the time in to trust them,go hang out with them, ask them
questions, be personal, and onceyou trust them, everything else
is easy, nothing else you needto worry about.
Just find people you trust anddon't ever listen to someone who
(58:16):
tells you not to reach out ornot to try that or it's too soon
, anybody who tells you that isbecause they themselves don't
want to see you succeed.
You have to do what you thinkis best.
Listen to your gut instinct.
If your gut instinct says Idon't trust this person, pick up
the phone, call them and givethem a chance to either fix that
or move on.
(58:37):
But if you do want to give amanager a chance, the best thing
you can do is give them yourtrust and watch what that
manager will do for you.
They don't care if you'remaking them money, but if they
know you trust them, they willbe your champion.
They will fight for you.
But if you don't trust them,they will always know in the
back of their minds that youhave this thing out for them,
(58:58):
and so you will never ever getto a good place together.
You'll just be judging eachother on what you did or didn't
do for each other.
So trust is everything.
But yeah, thank you guys.
I mean, what a fun chat.
I love the questions.
I love that you're doing thispodcast.
I really hope that this episodedoes its thing.
I'll for sure promote it on myend any clips or anything you
(59:20):
share with me, and I really dowish the best for all new
artists, all new writers, allnew producers.
You know my name is Niall Atway.
You can follow me on Instagram,you can check me out, you can
email me, you can text me, youcan DM me.
I will respond, I will help youand hopefully, we can actually
do something together.
Rob Franklin (59:39):
Wow, great.
All right, thank you very much,niall, and are we welcome to
use your information fromGrass-Fed Music on our podcast
as far as links?
Nael Atweh (59:49):
Please do.
Okay, anything you like,welcome to use it and abuse it.
Rob Franklin (59:52):
All right, niall hey, thank you.
Thank you very, very much.
We really really appreciate it.
Nael Atweh (59:58):
Thank.
Hi, my name's Rob Wardrums, franklin.
Welcome to Franklin's Garage toStage and Beyond podcast.
My co-host is Dana ThunderbaseFranklin.
Hey, dana, we got a specialguest today.
You want to go ahead andintroduce this guy for us,
please.
Dana Franklin (00:18):
I would love to With us.
Today, we have the privilege ofhaving the founder and CEO of
Grass-Fed Music, Niall Atway.
How are you doing, sir?
Nael Atweh (00:29):
Good, good, Wonderful.
Thank you for having me guysExcited to be on.
I've only done a few podcasts,so any opportunity to talk and
hear myself talk, I'm on board.
Rob Franklin (00:40):
Hey, we appreciate it.
I really do.
So, basically, can you tell usa little bit about yourself,
niall?
Nael Atweh (00:47):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So I'm originally from Toronto,canada.
I'm 40 years old.
I've been doing music since Iwas around 26.
I came up under a verysuccessful songwriter producer
named Nasri Atway, who's my bigbrother, and you know he started
as an artist, a dancer, thenmoved to New York, had some
(01:09):
success there, then moved to LA,and you know he's created some
incredible hits as a songwriterfor everyone, from Chris Brown
to Justin Bieber to Shakira.
Rob Franklin (01:19):
Oh, wow.
Nael Atweh (01:20):
To Lana Del Rey, to New Kids on the Block, to then
starting his own band calledMagic.
They had a big hit called Rudewhy you gotta be so rude.
Everyone knows that song.
And then I started in thebusiness, you know, yeah, just
managing producers, managingwriters, managing artists, and
(01:42):
really, you know, got into thisbusiness for a love of music.
I just didn't know I could makeit a career.
Rob Franklin (01:48):
Very good.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about like GrassFit Music
and what and what your companyis all about?
Nael Atweh (01:55):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Grassfit Music is your standardmanagement company.
We manage writers, artists,producers, mixing engineers.
Again, started in Torontorepresenting some upcoming
producers and writers.
My goal was to help them getmajor placements.
So songs with artists who weresigned to major labels.
This is like 14 years agoHelped people get deals, helped
(02:18):
people get placements and thenfrom there started developing
artists instead of just theproducers and the writers.
Took on some producers and thewriters, Took on some producers
and writers that did well.
Then took on artists that didwell.
Started developing an artistnamed Sabrina Claudio almost 10
years ago.
It's really what I cut my teethon.
She broke out as one of thebiggest R&B, progressive R&B,
(02:43):
soul singers in the world.
You know we've had countlessGrammys as a management company,
sold out tours, done someincredible things with
international artists.
We're also known for managingDJs.
We manage one of the biggestDJs named DJ Habi Beats, who is
basically an Arab-American DJthat mixes like Arabic music,
English music, African music,Brazilian music.
(03:05):
We also manage Afro House DJs,producers, songwriters.
So very unique managementcompany.
It's run by me and my wife,Elise Hayek, and we have an
incredible head of A&R namedNatalie.
So we're a very small companybut mighty, Always signing new
(03:27):
things, always on the cusp ofculture, but we are really
focused on developing andservicing our current clients
nice.
Rob Franklin (03:32):
Okay, I got a question for you do you actually
have a recording studio on siteor do you like work, or do you
like have a a recording studioyou basically work with?
How's that work?
Nael Atweh (03:46):
yeah, absolutely so.
Grass fed, as a managementcompany, doesn't own a recording
studio but, for example, ourour big songwriter nazri.
He has a wonderful spot in vannuys and then he has another
spot that's a built adu outsideof his house.
So we have multiple studioswith most of our producers.
Grass Fed actually operatesfrom our home.
(04:08):
We are a mom and pop company.
We're in Ventura County but,you know, probably three or four
days a week we're in West LA,but most of our producers and
writers and artists have accessto studios engineers, you know
it's part of the community in LA.
Everybody's helping each other,everybody is offering their
spaces for each other, somethingthat's a big part of why the
(04:30):
city is so great for earlydevelopment and growth.
But GrassVet has been fortunateto always have a place of work,
always have a place to create,and we pride ourselves on trying
to help others find a place towork very cool dana.
Rob Franklin (04:46):
What kind of questions you have for him yeah,
um.
Dana Franklin (04:49):
So you know, what exactly do you look for in a
band?
I mean, do you look for, youknow, personality, looks,
attitude, or is it basicallymainly just like the sound of
the band?
And is there certain genresthat you work with?
Nael Atweh (05:00):
yeah, I mean we're open to everything genre-wise.
What we're probably more knownfor at Grassbed is like R&B, pop
, a singer-songwriter.
So R&B is like your typicalusher or your singer-songwriter
is like your Ed Sheeran, or yourpop is your Taylor Swift.
Nowadays, most labels, mostmanagers are looking to see that
(05:24):
you have a following.
It's kind of an unfortunate butfortunate research tool that
you have to pay attention to.
You want to see that the artisthas a following, or, if they
don't have a following, they'revery active.
They're trying to build afollowing, and the reason for
that is no matter how talentedsomebody is, things just fall on
deaf ears if you don't have thepeople to listen to it.
(05:46):
So I usually try to find peoplethat I'm in love with.
I don't care if they're huge onInstagram or TikTok or big on
YouTube or already do shows orhave already done the Warped
Tour or whatever it may be.
I just need to fall in lovewith them.
I need to feel like I can go tobed with them.
I need to feel like I need tothink about them all the time.
(06:07):
I can't get them off my mind.
I want to help them.
I don't care how much moneythey make me because I believe
in the music, I believe in thestory, I believe in the artist.
But what happens quickly is thatbelief can run dry if the
artist is not willing to put inthe work.
Yes, you believe in their songs, yes, you believe in their
vision, but, for whatever reason, this artist doesn't feel like
(06:29):
they need to put in the work.
They don't need to post, theydon't need to create a podcast,
they don't need to be online,they don't need to make content.
They think that they're pastthat or they're stuck in the old
school business.
You know the rock and roll dayswhere there was only a few acts
that got through and if youdidn't know someone, you didn't
get through, and if you didn'thave budget for radio, you
(06:50):
didn't get through, and if youweren't on tour, nobody paid
attention to you.
But now we live in a time whereyou could be at home and you
could be making videos and youcould become a star because
people resonate with it.
So for me and the whole company,our job is to find people that
makes us feel something that webelieve in, that we trust.
They have our trust, theybelieve our strategies.
(07:11):
They don't think that we're outto take advantage of them.
They want to work with us.
They want to build their opensuggestions.
That's kind of where we makedecisions.
But sometimes you've got tolook at an artist's following
and say, hey, wow, got a millionfollowers on tiktok.
You haven't really broken onspotify.
Your music's not really takingoff yet, but you have the fan
(07:33):
base.
Let us help you find the bestmusic possible very cool.
Rob Franklin (07:38):
I love that at level of dedication I can tell
that's like in your voice forfor the bands that you work with
, that is that is so cool thankyou yeah, we can hear the past.
Dana Franklin (07:49):
The passion comes through just by listening to
you.
Nael Atweh (07:52):
Thank you, I'm trying I listen to tony robbins
every morning before I start myday I'm trying to help people
because I myself am liketormented by the music business,
tormented by you know, one ofthe things Tony Robbins said
today is like what's one thingthat you wish was better?
And I always say my career andit's like from the outside
(08:15):
people would say wait now.
You are successful, you do well, you obviously sell out tours,
you travel, but I'd always saythat I'm still missing that
credibility I feel I deserve.
I'm still missing that award,whether literally or emotionally
, that I feel I deserve.
There's still that feeling thatif I stop, things will fall
(08:37):
apart, you know.
So that's kind of the challengeof being in this music business
is you're always feeling likeyou haven't done enough.
So getting to that balance isreally, really difficult and you
have to have a really strongstate of mind every day,
otherwise the smallest thingwill just tip you off and then
you're right back to feelingdown on yourself.
(08:58):
And I'm not going to sit hereand pretend like I'm not a
victim of it or I don't comparemyself to others or I don't have
moments of weakness, but if Idon't just double down on like
no, stay positive, stay strong,believe in the music.
There has to be that.
We have to believe that theideas will work.
It can't just be who you know orthe business, or the
(09:19):
relationships, or how much moneyyou spent.
There has to be the idea thatgood ideas will still work.
And this is why the greatestbands you know, from U2 to you
know, queen, are still, you know, some of the greatest touring
acts of all time, because goodis good and it stays good for a
(09:40):
very long time.
And so trying to get there inthis day and age is difficult
and you have to have a reallystrong mindset to um deal with
the amount of failure that youwill see in a day, as any
independent artist deals withright now?
Rob Franklin (09:59):
uh, do you?
Um, how do you do like have ana and r person on staff that
actually goes out and looks fornew acts, or are you pretty much
relying on acts coming to you?
How does that work?
Nael Atweh (10:12):
Great question.
So, yeah, traditional A&Rhasn't really gone away.
I'd say across the musicbusiness there are A&R
personalities that are stilldoing what they would have done
back in the day.
Just now the tools aredifferent.
We have Instagram, tiktok,facebook, spotify, youtube.
You can easily message 20, 30artists in a day that you
(10:32):
discovered and then from thereyou figure out who's good At
GrassFed, one of our well, we'reonly a team of three and
Natalie.
She runs A&R for GrassFed.
She's young, she has greattaste in music and so she's
always putting me on tosomething.
Yo, check out this artist,check out this writer.
My friend's working with thisperson, but a lot of it is word
(10:53):
of mouth.
For example, our biggest client, sabrina Claudio, came to me
because, almost 10 years ago, afriend of hers said you should
email this guy now if you'relooking for a manager, and then
she emailed me, plus othermanagers, and then I responded.
Or, for example, our client, djHabby Beats.
He was someone that wasintroduced to me by a friend
who's not in music and he's likeyo, come to a party my birthday
(11:16):
party and meet this DJ, and Iwas like I've never worked with
DJs, but I fell in love with hisstory and his culture.
So a lot of times it's likethis kind of unexplainable force
that happens that you're notplanning and you then just go
with your gut instinct.
And then a lot of times youwent with your gut instinct, or
(11:37):
you took advice from an A&R, oryou took a shot on something
that you saw online, and itdoesn't work out because your
personalities clash.
So there's no one way ofdiscovering talent.
We pride ourselves at GrassFedon.
Rob Franklin (11:56):
We lost you there for a minute.
You still there.
I hate.
Nael Atweh (11:59):
Sorry about that, that's okay.
I would say we pride ourselveson.
Grassfed is trying to onlydiscover people that we don't
hate, that we can enjoy workingwith, but that itself is a
challenge.
So you just got to trust yourteam, your staff, your friends
that they'll send you goodthings.
And then sometimes you takeshots on things that nobody was
(12:21):
looking at.
Like I'm working with aColombian artist that nobody is
realizing is in front of themand I'm trying to, like, spark
something new from this artist,but it's a shot in the dark.
Rob Franklin (12:34):
Okay.
Dana Franklin (12:37):
So, as a manager, you know this podcast that we
do is generated towards, youknow, musicians starting out or
getting bands going, and maybesome that have been on the road
a little bit that may or may nothave ever had a manager.
What are the roles of a managerand what could they expect from
a company like yours if you'remanaging them?
Nael Atweh (12:57):
Yeah, great question .
So it depends on the type ofmanager.
Some managers are hands-off.
Hey, artist, tell me when youneed something and I'll manage
it.
Tell me when you have a dealcome through and I'll manage it.
Oh, when you have a show comethrough, I'll manage it.
At GrassFed, we do everything,we don't wait, we are hands-on.
So if we're working with a band, let's just say we're going to
(13:18):
do everything, from find themtheir band members, if they need
it, to finding them theirbooking agent.
So CEA, wme, william Morris,uta, finding them their lawyer,
finding them their businessmanager.
Reaching out to, if they needit, songwriters, producers,
mixing engineers, studio time,you know, going after brand
opportunities, coming up withsocial media plans, managing
(13:40):
their schedule, staying on topof them every day, you know,
asking questions, reaching outto other fellow artists and
creatives.
Now, every artist is different.
There are some artists thatdon't want that.
They want management to more orless handle just deals and
business opportunities and notbe day-to-day, because they
themselves kind of came up undersocial media instead of coming
(14:00):
up under doing shows and touring.
So they're used to handling aton of administrative or social
media instead of coming up under, you know, doing shows and
touring.
So they're used to handling aton of administrative or social
media details.
A lot of times what managers aredoing is just managing incoming
opportunities.
Oh, someone's reaching out fora show, someone's reaching out
to approve publishing on a song,or to figure out what the
(14:21):
credit is for the producer, orto you know, scream at you
whatever it is.
But a manager's job is to putout what the credit is for the
producer or to you know, screamat you whatever it is.
But a manager's job is to putout fires and technically start
them.
You know, so like that's what agood manager does.
We put out fires to maintain,but we start them so that we can
put them out.
You know it's kind of a viciouscycle, but a good manager to me
(14:41):
is an extension of the artist'sbusiness.
It's less a management but moreof a partnership, and that's
how you build trust to the pointwhere, even if you, for example
, want to leave music and starta real estate company, you would
bring your manager with you.
If you wanted to start apublishing company, you'd have
your manager run that for you.
(15:02):
If you wanted to start a label,you'd have your manager run
that for you.
You want to start a merchandisecompany.
So all the greatest successstories between artists and
management is when they're ableto flourish beyond just music
and grow together.
Because music is technicallylimiting in the sense of money.
You could only make so much,like even the biggest could only
make so much in comparison tosomeone who owns a tech startup.
(15:23):
It startup, right, it's likeyou know Taylor Swift.
Yeah, it makes half a billiondollars, but one CEO at one tech
startup makes that every month,right.
So it's like to do music isbecause you have a passion for
it, and if it's for money, thenyou and your manager can grow
that.
So it's limitless what a greatmanager could do.
I grasp that we really, reallyfocus on covering everything and
(15:46):
never leaving the clientfeeling like I can't go to them
for that because they don't dothat.
No, we do it, and if we don't,we'll figure it out.
Rob Franklin (15:52):
Wow, I love that passion and the idea.
So encompassing of every allthe needs of an artist.
That is just, that'soutstanding.
So at what point should let'sjust say you're a new band,
you've got a good following,you've got some recordings out
there At what point should youcontact a company like yours
(16:14):
Anytime?
Really, Okay, Me.
Nael Atweh (16:16):
I tell artists contact me.
The second you have an idea?
The second you feel ready.
The second you need a manager.
Don't be shy, reach out, sendmessages.
A lot of people will say, oh,don't reach out to managers,
they'll find you.
That's BS.
All the greatest managers,their clients, came to them
either via a friend, or thatclient had the guts to reach out
(16:37):
.
My biggest client reached outto me.
You know, my next biggestclient came from a friend.
I couldn't.
It's impossible for me to beeverywhere at all times.
I mean there's days where I'llsit on my laptop for three, four
hours and all I'm doing islistening to the newest music
that dropped on Spotify.
Spotify has a thing called NewMusic Friday and it comes out
Thursday at basically midnightworldwide time.
(17:00):
So I will be at 9 pm on aFriday listening to every new
artist because I'm like, ok,maybe I can find something that
I'm really excited about.
Then I'll reach out to themnine times out of 10.
They already have a manager.
So I always tell artists if youfeel you need a manager, you
feel you have talent, don't beshy.
If you feel you need a manager,you feel you have talent, don't
be shy.
Managers like me who are, youknow, we're doing amazing, but
(17:21):
there's bigger managers than me.
Those bigger managers willrespond to you.
So someone like me will alwaysrespond.
But don't be surprised when yougo and reach out to a huge
manager and you see that heresponds back because they are
thirsty for those opportunities.
So I tell artists when you feelyou have something, reach out.
But there's a lot of mistakesthat artists will make where
(17:44):
they will reach out because theysay, oh, I can't do any more
without a manager.
That's when you won't find amanager, when you're like oh,
there's no way I'm going to beable to get to that label
without a manager, there's noway I'm going to be able to get
to a Spotify playlist without amanager.
Or I'm not putting out thesesongs until I have a manager.
Once you start putting up allthose walls, no manager will be
interested in you.
(18:04):
So you want a manager becauseyou're just like I don't want to
take on this work.
I want to trust someone to takeit on for me and I want to make
them look good as an artist.
That's what managers arelooking for Someone who wants to
make them look good.
So I don't care how early it isin your career, you want to
make me look good and I want tomake you a ton of money.
Then we'll have a greatrelationship.
(18:26):
But, if your focus is what areyou bringing to the table for me
, Niall, then we'll have aterrible relationship.
So what you're basically sayingis be proactive and and and jump
in there early.
Oh yeah, man, I mean nothingbetter than jumping in early
because you build trust withthem.
Even if you make mistakes, theytrust you.
It's like someone great saidthis to me that how people act
(18:49):
the first time you meet them ispretty much who they are.
So if you meet someone for thefirst time and they're a liar
and they lie all the time, andthen, like you know, two weeks
later they try to act, like youknow, they're all nice and sweet
.
Likely they're going to alwayscome back to lying to you
because that's just who they are.
Or if someone meets you for thefirst time and they're sweet
and then they have a bad daythree weeks later, you know what
(19:10):
.
At their core they're a goodperson.
They just made a mistake.
So a lot of times that firstimpression is very important.
You get an idea of someone andyou get a feeling for them.
One thing I always look for istrust.
As, second, an artist doesn'ttrust me.
I can't work with them.
I can't even sleep at nightbecause I'm so upset that they
don't trust me.
And I can't believe that I'mworking for free.
(19:33):
Basically, I've made no moneyfrom you.
I believe in you, yet you stilldon't trust me.
I can't work with you, nomatter how much value you think
you're worth or how much I'mgoing to lose out.
Thank God I've never, ever,actually lost out on an artist
that suddenly didn't trust me.
They ended up suffering and Iwas right that they should have
(19:54):
trusted me, or trusted thefuture me or the future manager
like me.
So trust is everything.
I don't care about any otheraspect of it.
You just have to have trust forthat person who's working for
you, because it's kind ofdelusional to think that a
person working off commissioncan just guarantee results.
Like you're already startingoff in a very weird place.
(20:18):
Like you should just let themdo their thing and and and and
hope for the best results.
And when things don't work, isit the manager's fault or the
music's fault?
and the best artists believeit's the music fault and the
ones who struggle believe it'sthe manager's fault or the
label's fault yeah, and so yougot to decide what side of the
story you're going to be on, ifyou're going to be an artist in
(20:39):
this day and age.
Rob Franklin (20:41):
Wow love your attitude.
Dana Franklin (20:44):
So talking about cost and I just heard you throw
out commission is that how youare based as far as the money
from it?
Are you commissioned based fromwhat the artist might make, or
is there a fee up front?
How does that work?
Nael Atweh (20:59):
No, we're commissioned.
Only, we do run a smallconsulting division at GrassFed
where we consult for like fiveartists a month.
That's totally separate.
It's not something we promote,it's something we've been doing
for a very long time and thoseare just consulting.
Artists hire us, we consult forthem.
But yes, management business isa 20% standard commission.
(21:19):
It could be 15%, it depends.
If you're like a really bigclient, I'd be happy to take a
lesser percentage.
I'd be happy to take a 5% if Ibelieve in you and I feel that
there's a story to be told.
I don't ever take on clientsbecause of money I'm willing to
lose because I believe in them.
But the standard is 20%.
(21:40):
In the US it's like 20% offgross.
You make a dollar, they make20%.
You make $100, they make 20%.
But I'm also the type ofmanager that stands behind my
clients.
If my client's like, hey, nowI'm struggling this month, do
you mind just not takingcommissions for two months, I'm
like, yeah, no problem, what doyou need?
You know we've had clients.
One of my clients in the UKnamed Ethan.
(22:02):
When I met him he, you know,was having a couple you know
financial issues.
So I made it my focus to gethim out of those financial
issues.
I didn't worry aboutcommissions or anything like
that.
I worried about him paying hisbills, because I knew if he
couldn't pay his bills, there'sno way he's going to write great
songs or he might, but theymight come through struggle, or
(22:22):
he's going to be worrying aboutthe wrong things, and so it was
very important for me to get himout of that situation.
So our commissions don't meananything unless you're making
money, obviously.
So really the work is whatdictates the future income, and
I've always noticed, when youget artists out of their
financial issues, they're sohappy to pay you.
(22:42):
If anything.
Rob Franklin (22:44):
They want you to take on more responsibility,
because they realize the valueit brings to them, right, cool,
okay, so say you're a brand-newband but you're not in, like say
us, for instance, you're notlocated in the LA area.
Do you guys actually offer withbooking opportunities as well
(23:04):
in your management portfolio?
Nael Atweh (23:07):
Managers don't do bookings.
Managers will facilitatefinding you a booking agent.
I'm almost sure there's like alaw in California where managers
can't book shows.
We can go and, for example,reach out to a festival, reach
out to a buyer, but we can't goand hit up promoters and start
(23:27):
booking shows for our artists.
Artists can do that, they canhit up promoters directly
themselves.
But normally there's importantpillars for any artist.
Let's say a band, the numberone pillar.
When I say a band, a band,meaning, like you know, there's
more than one member.
They're not a pop artist.
You know.
The first, most importantpillar is okay, can we get you
an agent?
A lot of times with bands youfind them an independent agent,
(23:50):
an upcoming agent, a local agent.
Now they're doing local showsand then you're growing and you
become then a household band andnow you're getting booked and
you're getting on festivals,whereas, like a pop artist,
let's say, you're not thinkingabout putting them on the road
right away.
You're not thinking aboutgetting them a booking agent.
You got to get them a followingfirst, you got to get them a
fan base or you got to get themgreat songs.
(24:12):
See, bands have different waysof entering the music business.
They can be unknown but havedone 150 shows where there's no
such thing as a pop artist who'sunknown, who's done 150 shows.
It's very rare, it's tooexpensive, it's too difficult
and it's not really rewardingthe way just being online is.
So if I'm going to take on anact or a band or a singer, you
(24:36):
know I'm always going to do mydue diligence in the sense of
setting up their main pillars ofsuccess.
So pillar one is booking agent,pillar two, lawyer.
Pillar three, business manager.
Pillar four, label.
And if we can get thosehappening for my relationships,
amazing.
But if not, that means we needto build a following so that
(24:58):
when I go back around they'reexcited to work with that client
.
Rob Franklin (25:02):
And what's your typical process for social media
?
Obviously it's social media,but do you have a formula you
guys follow to developfollowings for new artists?
Nael Atweh (25:15):
We don't have a formula, but we try to tell
artists to be genuine.
That's the most important, thereason why anything can do well.
You guys are starting a newpodcast.
It has 2,500 downloads.
That's amazing.
It's because you're justtalking about ideas that people
resonate with and there's somuch room for new ideas.
There's so much room forpodcasts.
(25:37):
Who would have thought, in aday and age of TikTok, social
media, micro content, short formcontent, that there'd be people
listening to, for example, joeRogan or Call Her Daddy, where
it's three-hour podcasts,two-hour podcasts?
And people are not bored,they're enjoying it.
So there's a form of expressionthat people really want.
(25:58):
For me, I wish we knew how togamify social media in the sense
of like can we do it over andover again?
There's plenty of companies whodo, but they always fall short
when it comes to the music.
That's one thing you can'ttrick.
No matter what you do.
You cannot trick people to saythis song is a hit, this song
(26:20):
isn't.
When ACDC would put out analbum, everyone knew there would
be four solid songs, but therewouldn't be 12 hits.
It's impossible, right?
So we're in the same world nowwhere you know social media is
important.
If you're willing to postmultiple times a day three to
four times a day then you willsee better results.
(26:41):
But that doesn't mean you'llhave better ideas.
That doesn't mean the musicwill be better, but you might
have a fan base.
So I always tell artists juststart from an organic place.
What's important to you?
What do people not know aboutyou?
A simple thing I tell artistsdo is write your name on a piece
of paper.
Write as many things thatpeople don't know about you as
possible good, bad, ugly,whatever they are and then go
(27:02):
look at your socials, go listento your music.
Show me that any of that isthere and if it's not, you know
where to start.
You know you're not beingvulnerable enough and we don't
want to accept it.
But the reason why big artistsare big is because they are
unapologetically themselves andand that's why we see them.
You don't see the same artistsover and over again.
(27:22):
You don't see 10 taylor swifts.
There's only one, becausepeople won't enjoy the ninth,
eighth, the seventh, the sixththat are trying to be like her.
They want something different.
People want, don't they?
They have their drake, but thensome people want their kendrick
Lamar, and it's because both ofthem are unapologetically
themselves and they figured outhow to now make that public.
It's like you guys are brothers, but you're different, right?
(27:45):
And how do you?
If you started acting like eachother, people wouldn't know
who's who.
But the more you act likeyourselves, the more they can
appreciate Robert, the more theycan appreciate Dana, the more
they can appreciate who you are.
So being unapologetic, beingyourself, is the key to growing
online, but you also have to beconsistent.
So that's the hard part.
Most artists are themselves,but they refuse to post every
(28:07):
day, they refuse to be active,they refuse to put themselves
out there, they refuse to bevulnerable or to be corny, or to
be cringe, or to do somethingthat's out of their comfort zone
.
And then they hit a wall andthey're like why isn't anybody
seeing me?
I'm like well, you want them tosee you through this very, very
specific lens instead ofallowing them to choose what
lens works for them.
(28:28):
And so this is how we have newartists every year popping up
and become phenomenons or becomecultural sensations, where
they're bands, singers, rappers,international artists,
bilingual artists, and it'sbecause of that.
Oh, that's new.
Oh my God, I've never seen thatbefore.
I love that.
I love that.
I haven't seen that before.
I resonate with that now, andif suddenly that thing stops
(28:50):
feeding you, then you won'tresonate with it anymore.
And that's how simple we are.
It's not that complicated, butyou do have to find the truth
online but then also combat itwith consistency.
Consistency is where mostpeople fail.
That's where, most of the time,you don't see results when
there's zero consistency.
Rob Franklin (29:12):
Wow so much great advice.
Man, it's really a pleasurespeaking to you.
You've got so much insightfulinformation that I'm really
appreciating this, and I'm sureour listeners will as well.
Dana, what other questions doyou have for Niall?
Dana Franklin (29:27):
Well, I would like to know.
There's always a moment ineverybody's career where they're
like the light bulb goes on orit's like an aha.
Do you have a moment thatsomething just clicked and you
and you knew that?
Hey, this is what I want to do,this, this is who I am good
question I love that question.
Nael Atweh (29:45):
Um, I absolutely do so.
I always knew at a young age II grew up in toronto, canada.
My brother is a very successfulsongwriter producer.
I remember in we went back hometo Nazareth and we went to go
see our family and my brotherwas making music.
He was writing songs on yellowpaper, writing different lyrics
(30:08):
out, and I was like, oh, I wantto write lyrics too, and I
started writing with him, butthen within five seconds my
attention span went away.
And then a year passed and he'sstill doing it.
Two year passed, he's stilldoing it.
Two year past, he's still doingit.
Now he's taking dance classes.
Now he's taking voice lessons.
Now he's doing modeling.
Now he's doing wow, my brother's44, so you know he's cut from
the cloth of before social media, before spotify, before
(30:31):
anything.
You know he was gettingheadshots done.
He got scammed by people andbut we grew up always loving pop
music.
We were the arab kids that wouldlisten to backstreet boys and
sing and you could on the blockwe were kids, but I was also the
kid that was getting into afight and then come home all
bloody and I'd start singingbackstreet boys and my brothers,
(30:52):
I was a very bizarre kid.
So I always had this feelingthat I was meant to be a part of
entertainment, meant to be apart of music, but I just didn't
have the guts to do it.
I didn't have the stamina orthe belief in myself that it was
real.
I just always thought it was apipe dream and like, come on,
stop.
(31:12):
Like go get a job, go sell youknow whatever you can sell.
Go a job, go sell whatever youcan sell, go make money.
And I did that for a long time.
And when I was around 24, 25, Ikept seeing my brother
succeeding and I kept seeing himgrow and he was always defying
everyone.
Everyone doubted him, everyonetold him he wouldn't be a great
(31:34):
artist, everyone told him togive up on music.
He didn't have friends the wayI did.
He was kind of bullied bypeople who didn't believe in him
and he just steadfast, just tentoes down, refused to give up.
And so when I saw him havinghis first moment, which was
basically reviving the group NewKids on the Block and they
decided to come back as a groupbecause of his music and he
(31:56):
produced their whole album forthem.
I said, hey, there's anopportunity here, I can do this.
I don't need to be scared ofentertainment and I've spent my
whole life understanding popculture, music, songwriting,
movies, tv shows.
I mean still to this day I'mlistening to multiple albums in
a day and watching a movie everynight before I go to bed, or
(32:17):
the latest TV show I don't missa beat.
And so I realized that that wasbeneficial to music.
And then, growing up as, like atough kid, I had a tough dad, I
had very tough friends, I wasjust a leader automatically.
When I met these very you knowkudos to them, but insecure
producers, insecure artists andmusicians and scared people, and
(32:39):
they just saw that I wasconfident and fearless and
willing to scream at people andget into fights but also be
their champion.
So I kind of fell into the lapof being a manager by servicing
people who I felt needed helpand I just said what do you need
?
And then they told me what theyneeded and I went after it for
them and then that resulted inthem trusting me.
(33:01):
So I really got into thisbusiness from a place of fear,
but I always reminded myselfwhen I was a kid, I used to
watch.
I know this sounds so corny, butI used to watch Backstreet Boys
and NSYNC and I'd watch theirVH1 specials and I would cry and
I'd be like, oh man, why can'tthat be me?
Why can't that be behind stagewith these guys?
(33:21):
Why can't that be doing thesethings?
I would dream to just high fivethem as they walk off stage,
because we did this thingtogether.
And then you know, 15 yearslater, I did that exact thing.
I sold out, I developed a boyband, sold out the Roxy for
three nights in a row in LosAngeles and I made sure that my
videographer filmed mehigh-fiving every one of them as
(33:43):
they walked off stage.
Rob Franklin (33:45):
Very cool.
Nael Atweh (33:46):
And it's the same thing with Coachella.
You know, I wanted to go toCoachella.
I couldn't get a ticket.
I begged everyone.
Years of begging people.
I felt down on myself.
I couldn't get a ticket toCoachella.
So I said I'll never ask for aticket again until I'm on the
stage with my artist.
And then the next year we wereon the main stage with my artist
and I never had to ask for aticket again because we
(34:07):
performed that day.
So you know, my entire story islike I did what I was scared of.
I kept doing what I was scaredof Every day.
I got to do what I was scaredof every day.
I got to do what I was scaredof man, the amount of demons I
have to deal with in a dayinternally to then be able to be
a force for everyone, bepositive for everyone.
That's in itself a full-onmental exercise.
(34:30):
But the fact that I get to makemoney from music and from art
is insane.
So if there's some months oryears that I make a little less,
but I'm still doing what I love, I'm all for it, because I know
, you know, that 10,000 or I'dsay nowadays 20,000 hours was
worth every, every, every, everymoment, every hour, every
(34:51):
minute, every second.
Rob Franklin (34:52):
Wow, I love that story and that drive you have.
That's impressive, it really is.
Dana Franklin (34:58):
Yeah, you know that is.
You know.
I mean a lot of people aregoing to, you know, listen to
this podcast and get inspired bythis.
What would they need to do?
What kind of a quality demowould they need to do to submit
to a company like yours to getinterest?
Nael Atweh (35:17):
I mean, what kind of quality does it need to be?
Guys, if anyone is actuallylistening to me, or listening or
resonating with what I'm saying, do not care, I do not care
about any of those things.
You have a song idea, a voicenote, a scratchy thing?
You put it on a freakingcassette tape for some reason.
Send it to me.
Just just listen to your heart,don't listen to your you know
strategic brain that you think Ineed a perfect song to fall in
(35:41):
love with it.
Never one of my biggest artists.
Her first album was only onsoundcloud, before it ever was
on apple and spotify, and I had,and the whole industry was
chasing her.
So it's nothing.
Nobody cares about those things.
It's just that what artists dowhen they don't want to post,
when they don't want to post,when they don't want to create
content, when they don't want tobe relevant, they just want to
keep like picking at the samething that they don't need to
(36:03):
pick at.
Oh, it's not mixed, oh, it'snot.
The amount of times artistswill send me a song and tell me
to go listen to it in my car.
I won't.
I never will listen to them.
I say you're trying to trick meto like your song I don't need
big speakers to like your song.
If I don't like it on my phoneor on my laptop, it's not a good
song.
Right, right I don't need bigspeakers to tell me something is
(36:24):
good.
That's crazy talk, you know,and so there isn't any criteria
when it comes to me inparticular, I am always
responding.
A hundred artists could DM meafter this podcast and I will
listen to all hundred of them.
I will go through every one ofthem.
I don't need to message themback if I don't like it per se,
(36:45):
um, and I would think that'slike a sign for the artist to
keep working.
But also, if that artist wantsto hit me a hundred more times,
I'll respond a hundred moretimes.
So do not limit yourself tothink that songs need to be
mixed, mastered, perfect demos.
You could do them on voice note, you could do them on your
phone, I don't care.
There are many artists who have10 million monthly listeners
(37:08):
that recorded everything ontheir phone, many, many of them.
So there isn't any rulesanymore.
It goes back to what I said.
Do you believe in something?
Are you being vulnerable?
Are you being consistent?
Keep trying until it works.
Oh, it didn't work, it's themusic's fault.
Go back to the music, keeptrying, keep trying.
And then, of course, mixing,mastering.
(37:28):
These are all parts offinishing a song, but it doesn't
define a song.
I've seen many albums come outthat weren't mixed.
No mix Demo.
They put it out and it doesreally well.
So there's no rules, it's justgood ideas.
Good is good, bad is bad.
Period, no one can tell me thata mix will make a song better.
(37:49):
It will make the song better inthe literal sense, but it won't
make the melody, the lyrics,better.
Nothing will change that song.
Right?
Bohemian Rhapsody could beremixed a thousand times and it
would be better to the ears ofan engineer, but it would never
change the melodic structure ofthe song.
Rob Franklin (38:10):
That makes it one of the greatest songs in history
.
Okay, cool.
What's your opinion as far asthe direction of music?
My brother and myself we'rerock musicians.
We're diehard rock musicians.
We write a lot of good material, but rock seems to be kind of
in the background nowadays.
Do you feel like history isgoing to repeat itself and it's
going to have a resurgence inthe future?
Nael Atweh (38:33):
I think it has and it is.
I think, the way the mediaworks is that you only see the
most popular things.
But there are more bandstouring than ever before.
There are more rock bandstouring than ever before.
Now the genre of rock hasadjusted.
Some would say 1975 is a rockband right.
(38:55):
They're like a UK kind of poprock band.
You know, some would say HarryStyles is a rock star because he
has like a 20-piece band whenhe does a show.
So the evolution of a rock starhas changed.
But I'd say the genre of rocklike, let's say specifically
rock, like you know, that ismore instrument-based and you
(39:16):
know it's not.
Like you know, know these veryspecific hip-hop or urban or or
pop drums is doing extremelywell and growing extremely fast
because their playlists havejust become a beacon of like
catalog that is still relevant.
And so what's happening atspotify or apple or title or
(39:38):
youtube?
There are people who arededicating to growing these
genres and, yes, rock is one ofthe smaller ones, but it hasn't
even, in my opinion, slowed downremotely on the road.
There are acts doing, you know,like X Ambassadors or Imagine
Dragons.
People would say ImagineDragons is a rock band right.
(39:59):
But it's because the songs aremelodic and poppy.
You don't put it in thatcategory.
So rock has just transitionedto be more like clean and more
pop friendly, and then you kindof have to just do a lot of
digging to find the ones thatmaybe feel nostalgic or feel
like a little bit you know more,not what you're used to Like.
(40:23):
For example, there's a soloartist named Grandson.
You know he's a good friend ofmine and I'd say to me he's a
rock star.
You know like the way heperforms and does his shows.
He's what you'd expect fromlike Beastie Boys back in the
day and yes, they were like ahip-hop act, but they were also
rock stars.
So it it just depends on youknow the style.
(40:45):
But I think there's room forgood ideas, no matter what.
I think the state of the musicbusiness is in an amazing place.
Just because I believe in musicand I don't believe in the
business, so I nothing will everlike unless somehow AI takes
over, like the job of an artist,meaning the one who's on stage,
(41:05):
the one who's behind camera.
I think we're in a good placeand we could only be in a better
place and you can easily carveout what works for you and
sustain a whole career withouthaving to worry about what
doesn't work for you.
If you're like, hey, I'm rockspecific or I'm only catering to
a certain age group, trust me,that age group is out there for
you and you can find them.
(41:25):
You can put in the work andfind them.
I had a thought the other daythat I could sign a 75-year-old
man who can sing and make himinto a 75-year-old version of Ed
Sheeran.
Why not, If the ideas are?
good if the story is there,people resonate with it.
Guess what?
On my TikTok, every other weekI find a man, a senior citizen,
(41:45):
who's doing covers and they havelike 2 million views and now
they have a career.
So there's.
So I so I believe in the state.
I believe the state of music isin a fantastic place.
Of course, there's just a lotof satire.
There's a lot of music beingput out.
There's 150,000, they say150,000 releases on Spotify a
(42:05):
day, but somehow our communityof managers let's say 500
managers in the music businesswe still are squeezing out the
relevant ones.
So I think the state of rock,the state of all genres are as
healthy as the artist who'screating and decides them to be
wow, okay, cool.
Rob Franklin (42:25):
So basically, like you said earlier, if it's good,
it's good.
You know, if it's good, it'sgood, people are going to relate
to it.
Nael Atweh (42:29):
So so I yeah, I, I agree 100, but the difference is
now is it can be good and noone hears it yeah so you have to
choose as an artist.
What are you going to do aboutthat?
Right, that's an open-endedassignment.
Hey, what are you going to doabout it?
I know the music is good.
Well that's when we come tosomebody like you, right, but
(42:50):
then a lot of times, what thoseartists will do is go, I don't
know.
Can you get a label to sign me?
Can you get me on a playlist?
And I'm like, no, I can't.
You have a thousand followerslike.
You need to get these fansseeing you right now.
So we had a drummer that weworked with and she was an
amazing drummer.
So we we got her to shootdrumming videos four times a
week, but she only did heroriginal songs and then from
(43:12):
there, people.
But she blew up and all thecomments were people in their
40s and 50s going wow, bringingback old school drumming and
rock videos and rock music.
I love this.
And she was able to like findthat audience.
Now she still has the job ofcreating hits and getting past
this social media stage, but now.
(43:34):
But she has her foot in thedoor.
So you know that that part iswhere it could be daunting,
where it could be reallydifficult on any artist to be
like well, we all agree thismusic's amazing, but no one is
agreeing online.
I don't have a fan base.
It's not moving the needle.
So you have a choice to say I'mgoing to put up 50 videos in
the next two weeks on tiktok andinstagram to get people to
(43:56):
discover it, or I'm going to goback to the drawing board and
make even better music, butnothing changes when it comes to
how to get people to see it.
So that's the challengenowadays is that you might be as
good as that rock group 20years ago that all they needed
to do was get one phone callwith an anr and boom, they have
a business um now you have to,like you know, find those
(44:21):
millions of anrs meeting yourfans online that discover you,
to then get an an article.
Wait, I see people like you.
I like you too.
Let's do a deal, you know, andlet's try to make your music,
you know, come to fruition.
So it's a challenge, but it's.
It's a worthy challenge ifyou're in it for the right
reasons.
Rob Franklin (44:41):
What would be a realist oh go ahead Dana.
Dana Franklin (44:44):
I was going to say.
It sounds like that old adageis like you miss every shot you
don't take.
I mean, you've got to putyourself out there to get hurt
period.
Nael Atweh (44:53):
Facts 100%, and there are artists who are
fortunate.
They didn't have to do too much.
But we only see the successstories.
We don't see the losses.
Imagine labels and managementcompanies just posted hey guys
just want to let everyone knowhow many failed artists we had
this week, how many failedartists we had this year.
So all we see is the losses andI do think there's value to
(45:14):
seeing the failures, to seeingthe things that don't do well,
so artists can remind themselvesthat labels are only showing
you what worked, not what didn't.
So it's so easy to get caughtup in what everyone else is
doing, but you're realizing thatthat label also had 900 other
things that didn't do well.
That day, you know, but that'snot.
Their job was to show you that.
(45:34):
It's not my job.
The amount of rejections I getas a manager every week oh my
god, if I were to, I thought itwould.
The amount of rejections I getas a manager in a week.
Oh my God.
I thought it would be funny todo an Instagram post, you know,
once a week, of like the 20failed emails this week, you
know.
But it's like people just don'tdo that because no one's
interested in that.
(45:54):
Oh, no one responded to you, oryou know, they just want to see
the big things and then comparethemselves to those Instead of
saying bet you, the label's gotlike 50 artists that did
absolutely nothing.
I can only imagine how difficultit is for them.
I should be grateful that Istill have a career.
I still pay my bills.
I just need to beat thegreatest thing I've ever made,
(46:16):
and when artists accept thatthey usually get past it I've
ever made, and when artistsaccept that they usually get
past it.
But when artists don't thinkthey need to beat what they've
made and they think the industryis the issue, that's when they
don't get results.
So you know that obsession overyour vision, over the music,
over making a better and overpromoting it, that's the key to
growing in this game.
(46:37):
It's not hoping thatgatekeepers or myself or you
know your podcast or gives themthat boost they need, you're
going to always fall flat.
Rob Franklin (46:46):
Okay.
So, speaking of which, whatwould be a realistic expectation
if you have, say, greatmaterial you think you've put
out there on all the socialmedias?
What would be a realisticexpectation for, like the amount
of hits you should get on it,in your opinion?
Nael Atweh (47:02):
uh, that's a tough one, you know.
Listen, I've seen follow peoplewho have 2 000 followers and
their song has 3 million streams.
So something will just happenonline where a tiktok sound will
take off, an instagram soundwill take off.
You end up on a meme page.
Someone reposted you, someonedid a review, someone did a
podcast and people are going toit.
(47:24):
I mean, let's hope this podcastcomes out and goes viral and
people are fascinated by thestory and from there suddenly I
become more of a popular personfrom one thing that I said.
So there's so many versions oflike scalability or you know,
setting goals to try to hit them.
Normally in the music businesswe never like set.
(47:46):
Okay, we need to get 100,000followers.
We need to do a million streams,because it's like impossible to
like guarantee that.
But a lot of artists will setthose goals for themselves.
They'll be like I want to getverified, I want to have a
million followers, I want tohave, you know, 10,000 monthly
listeners, and they usually knowthat the only way to get there
(48:07):
is through consistent postingSometimes.
Okay, let's get you on NewMusic Friday, which is like what
Spotify offers as like aneditorial support system.
Hey, we have employees thatbasically look over these
thousand plus playlists that wecan curate and put personally
artists that we think would makesense for those playlists.
(48:28):
Then Spotify has a thing calledalgorithmic support where,
based off of your algorithm, youend up in these other playlists
that then give you support.
And then there's people whocome to your page and follow you
and save your songs or playlistyou.
So there's many ways to likeactivate that growth.
It's just kind of it's prettydifficult to like scale.
(48:50):
Okay, could you run ads?
That might work.
Could you put out acousticversions of the songs you put
out?
That might work.
Could you remaster songs?
Could you you, you know spendmoney on marketing or billboards
?
There's so many ways to get it,but we try our best not to set
like specific follower goals or,you know, spotify goals more or
(49:13):
less.
We set like output goals.
Okay, can we get you postingconsistently?
Can we challenge you withcontent?
Can we find you the bestproducers, the best writers?
And a lot of times, whathappens to artists?
They do one video that doeswell, they learn what works, and
then it just clicks and thenthey just, they just, they're
just, they're just like obsessedwith now staying on that path
(49:34):
because they've gotten thereward of the fans.
Getting there is very difficultand I don't know it's like I
have.
No, I as a management company,we don't have some secret sauce
to guide an artist to go viral.
We actually truly rely on theartists to handle that.
Our job is to motivate them,make sure they don't get down on
themselves, make sure they'renot like beating themselves up
(49:56):
over it and they're stayingconsistent okay, now is there a.
Rob Franklin (50:01):
Is there a particular formula that artists
should really pay attention toas far as when to put out new
material?
Nael Atweh (50:08):
no okay put it out when you think it's ready, okay,
but don't put it out on deafears, meaning like, do not just
put up a song and think peopleare going to hear it.
It's not going to happen.
You need to.
If I would say a basic formulafor releasing a new song, let's
just say we're putting out asong in four weeks from now.
I would say for the next fourweeks you should put up a
(50:31):
minimum of one post on TikTokand maybe two, maybe one every
single day on TikTok and maybeone every other day on Instagram
until it comes out.
That sounds daunting, but youshould be promoting that song
Now, not promoting a clip fromthe music video that you shot,
(50:51):
and not promoting some fancyartwork that you created.
Nobody cares about that.
People want a story, peoplewant to feel something.
So we call it in the musicbusiness, performance videos.
You performing in front of yourphone, in front of your camera,
at a supermarket, at a store,at a grocery store, in the mall,
in a parking lot, and you'refilming yourself and you're
(51:14):
shooting a portion of the songand you're singing the lyrics,
or you're singing it acapella,or you're telling the story of
the song, or you're sharing howyou made it with a producer, or
you're having a party withfriends and they're reacting to
it, or your parents are reactingto it.
You just got to find that veinthat taps into something where
people resonate with it.
(51:35):
They're like, oh my god, wow,dana put up this video of a song
he's putting out next month andI really resonate with that.
I can't wait.
Now.
You have a pre-save campaign.
Now people are pre-saving thesong that is coming out based
off of the story that you toldonline.
So I always tell artists justdedicate at least 15 pieces of
(51:55):
content before the song comesout.
Try everything to get people tosee it.
And then make sure you're notmissing out on anything.
Update your socials.
Stay on your Instagram.
Make sure your bio's there havea contact there, you know.
If you have a website, makesure it's updated.
If you're not on YouTube, putup YouTube videos.
Think long form, short formstory posts.
(52:15):
Be on Twitter.
You know, you know, be yourself.
Act like posts.
Be on twitter.
You know, you know, be, beyourself.
Act like a normal person.
Don't make all your posts aboutjust singing and songwriting
and and art, and you got to showthat you're regular and that
you have a life and that youhave friends, and that's what
people want.
They just want to findsomething they've never seen
before, and sometimes peoplejust want to be entertained.
That's why you see someone whois a cover artist get 10 million
(52:38):
views on a song on YouTube, buttheir originals have no views,
and it's because they just knowhow to sell the cover more than
anything else.
And those people are listeningto that cover, not because they
want to discover new music.
They just want to enjoy a songthey love.
So you've got to find whatworks for you, but I truly
believe that there is unlimitedroom for new artists who are
(53:02):
willing to put in the work.
Rob Franklin (53:05):
Awesome.
Wow, that is awesome, Dana.
Do you have anything else fornow?
Dana Franklin (53:11):
I think the last question I have is you know
we've always tried to, on everypodcast we do, to say something
that's you know, come up in ourcareers something that's really
funny or sad that's happened tous at some point.
One story that just resonateswith your career is something
(53:32):
you can laugh at, or somethingthat was a moment where you just
sat in your room and criedbecause something happened.
Do you have something like thatyou can share with us?
Nael Atweh (53:40):
Oh God Too many.
Just sat in your room and criedbecause something happened.
Do you do something like thatyou can share with us?
Oh god, too many.
One of the more like sad butsomewhat light-hearted stories
was I was managing anddeveloping a boy band and it was
called boy band project and Ihad so many huge opportunities
for them where labels wanted tosign them, everybody wanted to
work with them and I had thetrust of the boys, but I didn't
(54:02):
have the trust of the parentsand the parents were helicopter
parents who thought each one oftheir kids were better than the
last kid, or better than the kidin the group, of course.
And so there was a day where Igot stung by a wasp and I'm
allergic to wasps and I wascovered in hives from head to
toe and I'm sitting in my ghettoapartment at the time, barely
(54:25):
making $1,300 a month when I was30 years old.
So perspective for people whothink you know that they're
broke right now is 30 years old,barely able to pay my rent and
engage to my wife.
I'm sitting beside my my fianceat the time, who is now my wife
, and my partner in my company,covered in hives, literally
crying tears, trying to explainto these parents that I'm not
(54:47):
screwing them over, that I'mdoing what's best for their kid
and that what we're doing is theright thing.
But every one of them refusedto trust me and they actually
took my sickness that I wasdealing with as a form of
weakness and said, no, we don'twant to work with you anymore,
and tried to even file to thepoint of like a lawsuit and I
(55:11):
just, I just let it go at thattime because I felt that I
wasn't going to devalue myselfon something that is very
important.
So it was detrimental for myyou know career at that time to
give up on something that Ibelieved in so much.
But when I saw that my healthwasn't a priority to them, I
(55:34):
realized that I could only giveso much to people.
You know that will give it backto me when I need them the most
, you know.
So it was a great learninglesson on how to develop acts,
how to deal with parents, how tobe a tough personality.
But it was also a kind of sadmoment that when you're at your
(55:55):
worst, people who don't believein you, people who don't trust
you, won't care.
They won't be concerned withyour health.
They'll only be concerned withwhat they want.
And you know I wish the best,you know, for anybody who deals
with that internally.
But I've never seen them proveme wrong, you know.
So I've never, ever seen asingle person who thought you
(56:21):
know me or anyone that was agood manager was suddenly like,
oh, it ought to hurt them.
And then they leave the managerand now they're killing it and
they're doing well.
Actually, all of those kids andall of their parents quit music
and not one of them arepursuing music.
Not one of them are doinganything with their careers.
Are pursuing music.
Rob Franklin (56:40):
Not one of them are doing anything with their
careers.
Nael Atweh (56:42):
So I'll always have a place in my heart for wasps,
if they ever sting me or bees,if they ever sting me, because
it will remind me of like thatmy heart is in the right place
and I only need to work withpeople who are in line with me.
Dana Franklin (56:52):
Great story, awesome All right In closing,
niall.
Rob Franklin (56:56):
Hey, number one, we really appreciate your time.
And number two, what would be,in your opinion, best advice for
a new artist going forward,wanting to get to the point of
working with somebody like you.
Nael Atweh (57:11):
Yeah, my advice to you is, like all artists, be
yourself.
Do not try to be anybody else.
Stop trying to fit in with whatother people are doing.
Stop caring what everyone elseis doing.
Make music that you believe in.
Be honest with the managersthat you believe in.
Be vulnerable, ask a lot ofquestions, realize that you have
a lot more power than you think.
(57:31):
Don't be shy to reach out topeople like me.
Don't be shy to put yourselfout there and when you meet that
person, trust them, open yourdoor to them, open your
pocketbook in the sense.
Don't be shy to let them intoyour schedule, into your
personal life.
If you close off to them,they'll close off to you.
Managers have no time to waste.
They will quickly not want towork with you if you, they feel
(57:53):
you don't trust them.
So you have to have that trustfactor from day one and if you
don't, then really focus on it,on it.
Put the time in to trust them,go hang out with them, ask them
questions, be personal, and onceyou trust them, everything else
is easy, nothing else you needto worry about.
Just find people you trust anddon't ever listen to someone who
(58:16):
tells you not to reach out ornot to try that or it's too soon
, anybody who tells you that isbecause they themselves don't
want to see you succeed.
You have to do what you thinkis best.
Listen to your gut instinct.
If your gut instinct says Idon't trust this person, pick up
the phone, call them and givethem a chance to either fix that
or move on.
(58:37):
But if you do want to give amanager a chance, the best thing
you can do is give them yourtrust and watch what that
manager will do for you.
They don't care if you'remaking them money, but if they
know you trust them, they willbe your champion.
They will fight for you.
But if you don't trust them,they will always know in the
back of their minds that youhave this thing out for them,
(58:58):
and so you will never ever getto a good place together.
You'll just be judging eachother on what you did or didn't
do for each other.
So trust is everything.
But yeah, thank you guys.
I mean, what a fun chat.
I love the questions.
I love that you're doing thispodcast.
I really hope that this episodedoes its thing.
I'll for sure promote it on myend any clips or anything you
(59:20):
share with me, and I really dowish the best for all new
artists, all new writers, allnew producers.
You know my name is Niall Atway.
You can follow me on Instagram,you can check me out, you can
email me, you can text me, youcan DM me.
I will respond, I will help youand hopefully, we can actually
do something together.
Rob Franklin (59:39):
Wow, great.
All right, thank you very much,niall, and are we welcome to
use your information fromGrass-Fed Music on our podcast
as far as links?
Nael Atweh (59:49):
Please do.
Okay, anything you like,welcome to use it and abuse it.
Rob Franklin (59:52):
All right, niall hey, thank you.
Thank you very, very much.
We really really appreciate it.
Nael Atweh (59:58):
Thank.
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