Hugh Haller

In this episode of From the Great Central Fire, we sit down with Hugh Haller, current CEO and President of the Camping and Education Foundation. Hugh shares personal and professional stories about his journey from being a camper in the early 70s to leading the organization today.

We delve into stories from Hugh's early days at Kooch, changes to the Native American program, and the expansion of the camp's reach through the Urban Wilderness program. Join us for an insightful conversation about leadership, legacy, and the evolving landscape of camp life.

Music by Alice Peacock. Episode Produced by Unbridled Media.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
On today's episode from the Great Central Fire, it was an
absolute pleasure for me to sit down and and visit with our
current CEO and current president, Hugh Haller.
Long time friend, a long time Kuchalam and we great.
We covered some great topics, you know, starting with John
Holden, he grew up right close to John.

(00:22):
A trip with John down the PigeonRiver.
He actually was mentioned my father and and his influence and
tells a funny story about an obstacle course on the island.
We shared stories about our friend Steve Hinely.
A trip he had with Steve back inthe early 80s.
Talks about how we he reconnected and got back
involved with camp after a long time away.

(00:44):
We covered the background on theNative American program and the
changes being made, and we also covered what lies ahead in the
strength of where camp is today.Our urban wilderness is a great
program. He covered and he closed with
some important thoughts about changes in the leadership.
So sit back, relax, and I hope you enjoy this great episode

(01:09):
with Hugh Haller. Hello, everybody from the Great
Central Fire. This will be a great 1 today,
certainly for me. We're we're, we have a guest on
today that many of you know and I've known for a while, was a

(01:31):
camper for a while. And we'll get into all this.
But I want to welcome our current President and CEO of the
Camping and Education Foundation, Hugh Haller.
Hugh, great to have you on today, buddy.
Jeff, it's an honor to be on andand just share this platform
with you, my friend. Oh yeah.

(01:52):
Oh yeah. Listen to a couple of these
podcasts already and and you're killing it.
So I know that folks are are enjoying it and it's just great
to have you back in the fold. So thank you.
Yeah, well, it's great to tell stories.
I mean, I, I could go on and on.And what we're going to get into
is right around my younger days,but I, I remember all of it.
We're going to talk about it. I, I do want to mention you.

(02:13):
You started as a camper in 1970.I, I don't want an age or
anything, but I was 2. But but seriously, from 70 to
76, then you're on staff for a few years.
Why don't you, Why don't you just kind of go in about, and I
know there's a lot of family histories.
What the hell? Or I know this but but go in

(02:33):
about how your family came in and across camp and how it all
started for us. Certainly.
Well, you know it. It began in Cincinnati, OH, I
think I was 6 or 7, and I got involved in a Osaka Boys Club,
and that came about through my uncle.

(02:54):
I know, you know, my cousin Rick, who's been a part of camp
for a long time, and it's great to have him back.
But Rick's father, Richard Haller, my uncle, my father's
brother, was the one who first introduced me to the
organization and John Holden through the Wasaka Boys Club.
And I got involved in that one, as I said, when I was six or
seven in the middle 60s. And Wasaka was, you know, we

(03:19):
best way to say it or way to think about it was we, we
thought of ourselves as a kind of renegade Boy Scouts.
And I mean, you know, so many stories and so much fun, so many
great counselors that I know, you know, the names of, you
know, going all the way back to,you know, obviously people like
BJ and Ted Schroeder and the Keller brothers and on and on

(03:39):
and on. And it was such a brilliant
idea. And it, it actually didn't
start. It wasn't John's brainchild.
It actually goes all the way back to Jim Stone.
And that was passed on to Bernard Mason.
And then John took it over and John ran it for a number of
years. And it's certainly when I was
there as a kid. And it was such a a great idea

(04:01):
because not only did it kind of keep us off the streets and get
us involved in sports and one inhis camping because we did, you
know, weekend canoe trips and Indian dancing and crafts and
everything, but it was a wonderful feeder program into
Camp Coochie Chain. And that was really the
brainchild behind it. And that was what John had
envisioned. So I mean, he recruited so many
boys out of Wisaka Boys Club that went up to camp.

(04:24):
And, and so that's for me where it began.
John honestly was like became a second father to me.
I grew up two blocks from his house and every day on the way
home from school, we'd stop off and we'd shoot a little pool.
He taught me how to play a pool and help me with my homework.
I can't say that my my own relationship with my dad, like

(04:46):
many of us, was all that great back then.
So John kind of stepped in and was such an influence in my
early life. And, and then as I got a little
older and I think it was right around the time that you come
into the junior camp, because I wasn't a prep.
I started as a junior. John got me up to camp and you
know, and that began just an amazing journey for me.

(05:08):
And I think back to those days, you know, camp was everything
for me in my life and all the guys that I grew up with, Stevie
J Stair, John Wildman and Erotimus, Matt Golub, on and on
and on, Steve Merritts and so many great counselors, Rich
Thompson and Mike Ecker. Brad Smith, Mark, excuse me,

(05:31):
Mark Smith, Archie Smith, gosh, Rob Schoss.
I saw Rob Schoss. I hadn't seen Rob Schoss in 50
plus years, Jeff. And you know, one of the best
parts of my role is and you know, this is just, you know,
not only telling stories, but actually going, seeing people I
connected with Rob, Rob, he was down, he's down in Texas.
And Rob was one counselor that Iremember, you know, above many

(05:55):
just because the guy was so frigging hilarious.
And he was, you know, kind of hecame to camp out of Colorado
holding it, recruited him to help run the backpacking
program. And shots was definitely, you
know, a hippie type, you know, long hair and goofy and just a
lot of fun. And so I, I found him in the
database and reached out to him and went to see him last year.

(06:16):
And now he's just an old hippie.And it's still as funny and
hilarious as ever. But that's such a great part of
this role is reaching folks thatyou know, for whatever reason,
you know, aren't engaged, aren'tinvolved, aren't connected.
And you think, hell, they were only at camp for a year or two.
They must not have liked it. And you walk into their office.

(06:36):
You walk into their house, and it's a shrine, you know, And
they got their token cards and their stories and bring out the
camp K. And you know what their Beaver
patch. And you're like, wow, yeah, you
actually did really love this. And then they go on and on and
go, damn, like, why didn't I come back?
Like, why the hell did I take that lifeguarding job?
You know, that was I think back on it and I should have come

(06:58):
back to Coot. So.
So those days were so memorable for me.
You know, Jeff, you know, this, that when we were there, it was
much simpler, right? I mean, there were maybe a
hundred, 120 kids there. And we were there for the whole
summer. You know, there was no four week
program. You know, there was no
backpacking, there was no bicycling, although that did

(07:21):
come in while I was there for a couple of couple of years.
But you know what, we had one phone, we had one Model A Ford
truck. You know, Lulu would call us
from the office and it was just,it was heaven.
And to grow up there and spend your summers up there and learn
all about the wilderness, learn about our Native American

(07:41):
program. All the trips that I took, I
think back some of the ones thatwere most memorable for me, you
know, going both to the Fond du Lac and the Seal with Bob Meek
was, those were amazing trips. Bob still reminds me to this day
that I wrapped a canoe on the seal and I don't think he'll
ever let me forget that one. But you know, one of my most

(08:05):
fond memories of trips were was with John, my wishes assistant.
And I think it was one of John'svery last trips.
And we went to the Pigeon River,and I'll never forget this as
long as I live. I'd come across a Portage trail
and I was on my way back. And, you know, I see this
Grumman canoe trucking along andit's pretty low to the ground.

(08:27):
And I'm thinking that's got to be holding because it's like,
you know, John, it's as large ashe was in stature.
He was actually pretty diminutive, right?
And all of a sudden he trips over a bog or something, the
canoe goes down and it's just flat on the ground, right?
I mean, it's just flat, perfect,flat on the ground.
And I'm like, Oh my God, John's down.
And I, I run to go help him. And all of a sudden I hear his

(08:48):
grunt. And slowly the canoe just rises
up and there's John, pipe in hismouth, you know, not missing a
beat. And off he goes.
So just, you know, amazing place, amazing memories.
It's, it's great too, when you go meet with people, you, I
mean, I, you know this too. It's like the conversation

(09:08):
picked up from 4050 years ago, like it never let off it left
off. I mean, it's just it's right
back into your point too. You know, I've met with some
people on myself that were therefor a year or two and they
remember everything and absolutely love the place.
And you know, I just, you know, talking about changes to, you

(09:29):
know, you're talking about some some more.
I was, I jotted down some things, you know, that some
people may not know that the shop used to be right where the,
the, the front bench is there, you know, right when you walk on
right next to the welcome centerthere.
It used to be there. I mean, the people don't how
about the old tennis courts downwhere the trip center is now

(09:50):
where they do the felling contest for the woodcraft that
the, there were the staff where they, where they chopped the
logs off the trip centers changed twice.
And in the marine railway for the big boat, we used to pull
the big boat up right on the sailing beach with with the
railroad. I mean, all these little things
that have changed, it's just kind of interesting to see,
yeah. Oh, there's no question.

(10:12):
I mean, when you think back to our day, you know, the
basketball courts were kind of center of camp because you not
only had the basketball courts where your dad and Lineberger
and others held court right after dinner, you know, and a
just a massive basketball game. But the horseshoe pits were
right there. The box hockey was right there,
the tetherball courts were rightthere.
And that was just that was center of camp.

(10:32):
And the shop is you, you, you know, as you stated, there were
benches out in front and, you know, when everybody would who
wasn't playing would gather there and watch.
And there was just so much activity right there.
And, you know, I think of those those times and those memories.
I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't talk a little bit about
your dad. I mean, Bugs was, you know,

(10:52):
larger than life for me as a camper growing up.
He was he ran the junior camp. BJ ran the intermediate camp
when I was there. But your dad, lot of tough love,
which I needed for sure. And one fond memory I had of
your dad was I don't know whose idea it was or who did it, but

(11:14):
we established an obstacle course that went all the way
through the back of the island, through the swamp.
It was, it was tough, man. I mean, it was, it was rigorous
and it it was a punishment just to say it for what it is.
And, you know, I got in more trouble, you know, than most.
And, you know, next thing I know, one morning, you know,

(11:35):
before I know it, it's 4:30 in the morning and the whistle goes
off and your dad burst into the cabin.
He's yelling at me. And, and the rest of the guys
like, oh, let's get up, We'll run the course.
It's all Hallows fault. And so we're making our way
through this obstacle course. And it's a lousy day and the
weather's just terrible. And here I am coming down the
Bear Trail neck and neck with your dad, and we're in front.

(11:58):
We're leading everybody. And I swear to God, Jeff, we're
jostling each other like there'sno way I'm going to let your dad
win. And of course, there's no way
he's going to let me win. And literally, we're elbowing
each other. We get the right to the end of
the ball to the Bear Trail, right where it comes into into
the ball field. And we're both like diving
across the finish line. That's classic.
When I came back to camp many years later in his role, it was

(12:19):
like literally the first thing your dad said to me.
Hey, you know I won that, right?He was competitive to these last
days. I know.
Oh. My God, but.
He loved it up there, you know, and it's, I know it's my dad,
but I, it's been great. I've been, you don't know how he
was received and you just don't know, you know, what people
thought. I mean, I'm sure their son that

(12:40):
didn't care for the way he he corrected him or whatever.
But everybody so far that I've caught up with has said how big
of an influence he was on them and how much they appreciated
tripping with him. So it's been great for me to
hear. And there's a lot of people like
that up there though then. And they're still there and
they're still having a great impact on kids and, and trips
and things like that that is still going on today, which is,

(13:02):
which is, you know, great to seeyou talk about holding.
You know, when I was a kid, one thing I remember was going to
his home in Indian Hill for the Christmas Eve party.
You know, I had to be 13 before I went there.
That was such a great time. And our family took it on.
And a funny story about that one.

(13:23):
You know, when John passed away,we, we, we started hosting the
Christmas Eve party at our house, my parents house in
Cincinnati. And Buzz Ecker and Bill Easley
came to the party and they were a little late.
And Buzz shared with us that they were at the house, 2 houses
down the street, 2 doors down the street at a party.

(13:43):
And we're there for two hours having beer.
And then Buzz looked at Bill andsaid, hey, do you know anybody
here? Said no.
So Buzz asked, is this the Coleman residence?
They said, no, that's two housesdown.
So they were a little late to the party, but they eventually
got there. But but also at John's, you
know, he made me share. I don't know as much, but I know
he had a big A garage in the back with all the ski equipment

(14:07):
in there. Yes, Key Wayne Ski Club, which
John started with Ed Betts. For those out there who were
recall Ed, I think if you look up in the dictionary and you
look under the, the word gentleman, Ed's name would be
right there. I mean, I, I don't know that
I've ever met a, a man more distinguished, more polished

(14:29):
than Ed and was a great influence for me when I came
back into this role and offered a tremendous amount of advice.
But yes, Ed started Key waiting with John.
It actually was Ed's influence said allowed Key waiting to be
Coed and really wanted to be a Coed ski club.
And, you know, obviously up intothat time, anything that we did,
Wasaka and Kuchi Chang, we're all boys.

(14:50):
And you know, I think that was sort of the forerunner.
Maybe when you could think aboutit, I would get you that way.
But Key Wayne was it was just a lot of fun.
Gosh, I don't even know if I remember how old I was probably,
you know, 10/11/12 when I started.
And, and Jeff, I mean, we're talking step in bindings, wood
skis, you know, you know, springbindings, the whole thing.

(15:16):
And we went all through the Midwest in those days.
We'd go up. I learned to ski up at Boyne
Mountain. Actually, I'm taking my kids
there this Christmas to revisit it.
But we went to Boyne, we went toDevil's Cascade, Devil's Devil's
Head, we went to Cabaret, Cabaret, all, all the places in
the Midwest. And then, you know, I never went

(15:38):
WI don't know if I was out of itthat time or what.
But, you know, then they startedgoing West.
I went there a couple times on that, the Snowmass, they had a
house out there. BJBJ, all those guys.
But you know, one thing that wasjust, you know, another great
memory there. It's just John, you know,

(15:58):
picking us all up with the Greenmonster.
You know, we'd load us all up onFriday right after school and
we'd take off and drive where wewere going and and then, you
know, ski for a couple days hardand have a lot of fun and then
back in the Green Monster and come on home.
And John was hit up there in thefront seat with his pipe and
just a wonderful time. So, you know, Key Wading spread

(16:19):
its wings throughout Cincinnati.There's a lot of boys and girls
who went to who are part of thatkey Wading ski club that never
actually came up to camp, but definitely had a strong presence
here in the Cincinnati area. It's that's that's the kind of
program I wish we could revive. But.
Little tough today's given the the entry price for speaking,

(16:42):
but at least we have boys of winter.
That's a nice. You heard we're having Sons of
Winter now. I don't know if.
You I did hear that. I did hear that.
Yes. I don't know who shared.
I was down at the camp office not long ago.
Someone shared that with, oh, Tim Downey.
Tim Downey shared that with me. Yes.
Yes, Mick Ian, who is a current Kuchi Chang staffer, very

(17:02):
creative guy, very, very creative old man.
And he dreamed up this idea of of Sons of Winter.
So it's kind of at the intermediate and senior level of
campers. And I think it's an it's over
presidents, Presidents Day weekend.
And he's got about a group about1416 young men.
They're going to go up to the island and experience the PG

(17:23):
version of Boys of Winter. No, it's actually that's who
that is who told me about it washim.
I saw him at the at the camp event in Cincinnati there on the
12th, right? And he was showing me that.
I met him and we had a great talk.
That's that's who was showing meabout all that.
So. So who knows, maybe it will lead
to future ski trips in Minnesota, who knows.

(17:46):
But anyway, it's a lot of fun. So, you know, 6-7 years as a
camper, you're on staff for a couple years.
You, you came back in 83, which happened to be Heinle's first
year, which was kind of kind of interesting.
And then you were gone for. A while I got to tell you a
story about 83, though. OK, Yeah, I I I wrote this one

(18:07):
down and it sticks in my memory because it involves one of our
dear friends, Steve Heinle. So in 83, I came back for one
year because Tim had reached outto me.
I was traveling and doing things.
I was overseas for a while. I was in the Peace Corps and I
had I was kind of in between jobs.
And Tim reached out to me, said,hey, can you come up and lead a

(18:30):
backpacking trip? And I'm like, Tim, I don't know
the first thing about that back.I said all my days were kidding.
I don't need you're fine. I was like, OK, I got nothing to
do. I'll come up.
So came up and there were two trips going to the Wind River.
Gary Lineberger was sure leadingone and I was leading the other.

(18:50):
And turns out that Randy Alden, who I know, you know, was my
assistant, thank God, because heknew a heck of a lot more about
backpacking than I did. I think I was just there because
I was 21 and one of my campers was Steve Hindley.
So we had a great trip, you know, fabulous mountains and,

(19:13):
you know, great weather. And although I remember us
getting caught in a windstorm where we hitting a crevasse for
a couple hours. So we thought we're going to get
blown off the side of the mountain.
But at any rate, great trip. We get back, you know, we were
based out of land or Wyoming. And in those days, you know, we
would drive a van out and then leave it there, the trail ahead
and then come back. So we get back to the parking

(19:33):
lot and I go to the van and openit up.
It's dead. Battery's just dead.
I'm like, Jesus, and I'm like, Idon't know what I'm going to do.
And Ray's like, what are we going to do?
I was like, I don't know, hey, take the kids into town, you
know, buy them a Coke, go to a movie.
I don't know, I got to figure this thing out.
So anyway, I don't know if I'm allowed to tell this story on

(19:56):
the air, but I think I'm all right.
I got to figure something out here.
So I literally started going around the parking lot looking
for a van that was similar to ours and had a battery and.
You know, sprung the lock, got it open, took the battery out.
You know, obviously took the dead one out, put it in ours,

(20:18):
charged it up, drove the van into town, bought a battery,
came back, put the battery back in, and then got the kids and
went home. So I come back.
When I came back to the organization many years later,
Wiper, who's who was director atthe time, he meets me at the
dock and the first thing he saysme.

(20:38):
Do you remember when you stole that battery out and I had
completely forgot about it? Yeah, completely forgot about
it. But Steve, as you know,
remembers everything he could tell you.
Every trip, every Portage trail,every campsite, every fish he
caught. And yeah, he didn't let me live
that one down so. That's he's he's one of the best

(20:59):
ones I've ever tripped with by far.
He's he's a great one. So yes, he is well so so you,
you were gone for a little bit. I mean in 83 you can kind of you
can get into this and share thisa little bit, but then you came
back in this role. Now, what year was it that you
came back in is the President and CEO?

(21:20):
So it was in 2007, started in August of 2007, the little story
behind that. So yes, I was gone for quite
some time, probably about 25 years.
And true story, my wife, Alice Peacock, who I know, you know,

(21:44):
singer-songwriter, and she was out in LA recording an album.
And we were flying home across the Rocky Mountains.
And I had the window seat and I was lost in thought.
And she elbows me and says, where are you?
You. You seem very distant.
I'm like, you know, I just, comeon, we just spent like 3 weeks

(22:04):
in LA and it's like not a city I'm super fond of.
And you know, I, you know, just,you know, just dreaming.
And she's like, well, if you could be anywhere right now,
where would you be? And I don't know, maybe back in
my old camp. And she's like, what?
She said you never talk about that.
And according to her, for the next 2 1/2 hours, that's I

(22:27):
literally didn't stop talking until we landed in Chicago where
we were living at the time, talkabout camp and old camp days.
And she was like, well, why don't you reach out?
Why don't you reconnect with them?
And she was like, ah, you know, been there, done that, whatever.
Anyway, she kept it up and literally like for a couple
months, she kept bugging me about it.
And so finally one day I picked up the phone and I called Hank

(22:49):
Brightwell, who I was still verygood friends with at that time.
And just hey, hey, what's going on with camp?
And he said, you know, I'm not really sure, but the guy I
believe in his chair is Jim Shook.
And Jim and I were best of friends, grew up together at
camp. And so probably another couple

(23:10):
weeks went by and then I picked up the phone and I called Jim
and for he picks up the phone and hey, Jim, it's Hugh.
He's like who you? Where the hell you been for the
last 25? Years, right?
Right. And like, well, you know, Jim
foam works both ways, dude. Like, you know, where you been
anyway? I mean, we then picked up

(23:31):
immediately, right? Like, like you just said, you
know, earlier didn't miss a beatand reminiscing and everything.
And he's like, you know, it's pretty coincidental that you're
calling me right now because we are just starting to think about
putting together a, a, a role for a CEOCEO to overarch the
organization. We just started this girls camp

(23:51):
and we need some help with that and need a little help with
cooch and so forth and so on. And we're not really sure even
what the role looks like. And frankly, he didn't sell it
very well. And, you know, I kind of like,
you know, would you be interested?
I think I don't know. Anyway, that was it.
And and I think I might have said at the end of the

(24:11):
conversation that if, you know, if you ever got to get it
together or you, you know, you have a job description, maybe
shoot it to me. But you know, I'm happy with
where I am, what I'm doing. And anyway, I didn't hear from
Jim for six months and then one day, Dang, in my inbox and
there's this e-mail from Jim anda job description of the role.
And he took a look at it and I was like, well, you know, I owe

(24:32):
it, owe it to myself to, you know, at least, you know, submit
a resume and a cover letter. So I did that and next thing I
know it, I got a call from Tom Martella who was leading the
search. And.
Fly me to Cincinnati and, you know, I felt like I was in the
Inquisition and, you know, in the room with the spotlight over
my head. And there's all my old buddies

(24:53):
and some I knew and some I didn't know, including people
like at that time. Jeff Wilson, who was chair of
the board, may be the smartest man I've ever met in my entire
life. Just, you know, God rest his
soul. Just incredible, incredible man.
Ed Betts was on that committee and all the guys I've mentioned,
J Stare, Kathy Dicks, who I'd never met before at that time,

(25:13):
George Simmons, who I actually didn't know at the time, and on
and on and on. And you know, I went through the
process of three or four rounds interviews and before I knew it,
you know, I'm up at camp for thelast round.
And this is the best part of this story was because this led
to a life wrong friendship. I'd gone through a bunch of
interviews up at camp over a weekend and I went over to

(25:37):
Thunderbird just to kind of decompress and think about the
whole process. And I'm sitting on the deck and
look over and there's this this guy and never met him before,
didn't know who he was, but sortof scruffy looking in our old
ratty cooch hat and maybe the weirdest food plate I've ever

(26:00):
seen. You know where this is going.
He's got some olives and, you know, some eggs and I don't
know, some peanut butter. And then he's got like a martini
glass and the whole bed and you.Want me to guess?
Go ahead. It's got to be Tom Dupree, A.
100% And I walk up and I go, I didn't even say anything.

(26:24):
He's like, I know who you are. He said.
I've been behind the scenes of this whole process.
And he starts asking me questions and then starts, you
know, giving me some ideas and thoughts and advice.
And honestly, Jeff, that starteda friendship that, you know,
lasted, you know, well, Dukes, we lost Duke about five years

(26:46):
ago now. So, you know, 15 years of just
an amazing friendship and was sohelpful for me as a mentor,
advice, helping me through, you know, those early days and
especially with the development of the Getchi Dakwe, which you
know, was a big impetus for me in terms of coming back and get

(27:08):
getting into the role. Well, I could go into a
bazillion stories about Doopy, but I'm I'm, I'm going to hold
those back and they're all hilarious.
But but but so you know, you andwe were there.
We had we had Camp Cooch. It was the one director that was
it. It was a one person show.
They did all the fundraising, recruiting unit, all of it, the

(27:30):
the whole shooting match and andnow here we go with it.
Now you're getting into a new role and you saw it the way it
was before. And now here you come in with
the CEO with now another, another entity under the
umbrella, so to speak, with the,with Ogichi starting up What I
mean, I'll let you go from here and land and cut it loose to
you. The, the, the difference, the

(27:52):
changes, I mean, and this whole new structure of how it's all,
what were the challenges? Were there challenges were
there? I'm sure that's good, good and
bad. With anything like this that you
get into, it's going to be different.
And I'm sure it's a, you know, it's a little different setup
than what we were all used to. It was.
And yeah, I mean, there were a lot of challenges in the

(28:15):
beginning. I think just just from the
outset of, you know, we're goingto get into this a little bit
later too, just with some of themodern challenges.
But, you know, Cooch, I think one of the things that people
love about Cooch is the fact they think of it up there and on
Rainy Lake and it's, you know, isolated and it's preserved and

(28:38):
kind of protected from outside influence.
And we all want to think, hey, we can come back and, you know,
nothing's changed. And to a large degree, nothing
has. And when it would come to the
program and the influence and impact it has on kids, nothing
has changed. If anything, it's only gotten
better and has more. But at that time, certainly the

(28:59):
current board recognized that weneeded to evolve and we were
becoming a little bit of a dinosaur.
And if you go back to that period, which was, you know,
2007, 2008, and you were to lookat the rest of the industry and
look at the really excellent waterness organizations that

(29:21):
were out there. By that time, they had all had
really evolved. And not only do they have boys
camp, but they had a girls camp and they also had some
additional programming, like year round programming as well.
So I always say this that I don't think anybody can touch us
when it comes to our tripping ethic and our ability to trip,

(29:42):
especially given where we're located.
But as an organization back then, we were a little behind
and good to go back to John for a second.
And not everybody knows this, but you know, a getchy, not so
much a getchy, but a girls camp.That was John's vision.
John, you go all the way back to, you know, the early 80s and

(30:06):
even into the mid 70s when I wasat camp toward the very end.
And then when I was on staff, there was already a lot of talk
about starting a girls camp. And that was John's vision.
And when I came back, one of thefirst things that I did was lock
myself in a closet out on Northland Blvd. where our old
office was, where Tim had set itup.
And maybe the rent was $100. I mean, this, it was just like,

(30:28):
I mean, you talk about no frills, just classic Tim.
Oh, yeah. And, and I locked myself in a
closet and just read through allthe back minutes and all the
backboard meetings. And what I uncovered more than
anything, or as much as anything, was John's desire to
have a girls camp. And it was all there and it was
all memorialized. He had plans.

(30:49):
I have an old folder of John's where literally he had the whole
thing laid out and he was definitely ahead of his time.
And I don't think it was maybe as well thought out as it could
have been in terms of, you know,there was going to be some
commingling and conflict with the boys camp.
And obviously that was never going to happen.
So, you know, the board shut it down many times.

(31:09):
Family that I know, you know really well, the Lenkemeyer
family, Ned Lemkemeyer was the chair at that time.
And Dad had couldn't be at this board meeting where they were
bringing up the girls camp again.
And I guess they had a call Ned.I don't know if he was in Saint
Louis or Florida off on business.
And they had a call Ned, to castthe deciding vote and he voted

(31:31):
against it. And so it was voted down.
And when we read, when we finally got the girls camp up
and going, I know that Ned, I remember visiting him years
later as we were looking to put it all together and raise the
money. And he's like, you know, it was
one of my greatest regrets in life.
And I'm so glad that you guys finally got there.
Another guy, Harry Mcneely. I know you remember the Mcneely.
Family. I just visited Harry last

(31:54):
summer. Harry is 101 years old, 101.
He was 100 on our hundred and isstill engaged in vibrant and
he's participated in some of ourmost recent efforts in
campaigns. But he is another one.
He was dear friends with John. And again, when we voted the
camp, the girls camp down, he kind of walked away for a period

(32:15):
of time. So, you know, back to John's
vision. It was John's vision.
And I brought up a name earlier,George Simmons.
I didn't know George when I was at camp.
Hard times never crossed. But when I, you know, was lucky
enough to get this role, one of the first people I sat with was
George. And George told me this really

(32:37):
powerful story. Sorry about John and how John
told George on his deathbed. Don't forget about the.
Girl, yeah, we we talked about that on his when we hit him on
the from the Great Central. Fire.
So, you know, it's sort of the hair went up on the back of my
neck when he told me that story.And honestly, Jeff, I, when I

(32:58):
heard that, I felt like, OK, there's a reason why I'm in this
role. And it's a complete John's
vision. Yeah, because I, John was so
influential in my life as a kid.And so we took it from there.
And, you know, I mentioned the the minutes and all that I had
found on John's ideas. And there was one particular
letter over that John had written to the board about how
important it was to start this girls camp from a strategic

(33:20):
standpoint. And so I took that letter when
we started to put this whole process together because, you
know, when I came in, I get you was already started, but it
definitely was, you know, in a bit of a state of I don't know
if chaos is the right word, but just we needed a plan.
I mean, we didn't really have a really strong vision yet for

(33:41):
what it was going to be. It was young still.
It was young. It was still young.
I mean, it was young. And all the people who were a
part of that early process. George and Janet Vanderbark.
Jay stare. Jim shook.
Steve shook all those it mean they they had a great founding
committee. Rich Thompson's another one,
obviously Tim, but it was young and not everybody was on board.

(34:03):
I mean it really hadn't been, you know, I think maybe sold as
well to the the communities it could have been or there
definitely was just, you know, confusion.
What is it really going to become?
And most importantly, they weren't sure where it was going
to be there. It was a temporary lease
obviously on the Rainy Lake Lodge property, but you know,
that wasn't necessarily the original vision is what was

(34:26):
going to what was going to end up.
So you know, my first charge wasto really figure this out and
OK, you know, what's the what isthe plan and and what is going
to be the best way to do this? Where does it go?
What does it look like all thesedifferent things and back to
dupe. Great story with Tom.
So, you know, I had committed tothe organization that what I

(34:52):
felt was most important from a fiduciary responsibility was to
look at our properties first before we said we were going to
go off to another part of Minnesota or Wisconsin and, you
know, purchase land and spend millions of dollars.
You know, let's look at what we own 1st and see if that's, see
if that's, you know, viable. And, and I, as I mentioned, Tom

(35:12):
had already become a, a great friend.
He, he was advising me on some of this.
So Tom and I came up to camp in March, and this would have been
in, I think, I guess this would have been in 2008.
Yeah, March of 2008. And Tom rented a little prop
plane and we flew over the island and all the properties up
there that we currently own to see what could be viable.

(35:35):
And then after we did that, we spent a day hiking all through
the island, every part of it, tosee if it was feasible and
ultimately, for a number of different reasons, decided that
it wasn't, that it just wasn't going to work.
And some of that was proximity to the boys camp.
Some of it was what it would have taken from an
infrastructure standpoint to really build something out.

(35:56):
So once we did that, then we went over to the old Rainy Lake
Lodge property where the girls camp was at that time and looked
at that. And we're, you know, going
through all of that and, you know, it was obvious we didn't
have a lot of acreage there. But the big thing more than
anything was you're going to have a camp, you got to have a
ball field, right? You got to have some, you got to
have some flat space. And, you know, the only flat

(36:20):
space at that time behind the Ray, Old Ray Lake Lodge was the
Leach field. And it was about, I don't know,
it had to be at least a couple feet of snow on the ground at
the time. And so we're tramping around
and, you know, as you know, Tom's got, you know, his one leg
and he's got his prosthetic and he's got his his ski poles.
And we're tromping through the snow and we're behind the lodge.

(36:42):
And next time you know it, Duke just takes off.
Like he just takes off like a bat out of hell.
And he's he's going across the this Leech field with his ski
poles and he's trucking the line.
I'm yelling at him. TomTom, slow down.
Next thing you know what, he literally pulls out of his
prosthetic leg and the leg, the stump is sticking in the snow.
And he keeps going. He's like, he's like, Hugh, I

(37:05):
see it, I see it, I see it. I'm like, what the hell is he
talking about? Like he turns around.
He's like, this is it. This is the ball field.
We just got to clear out some ofthe woods and make it a little
bigger. And this is it.
And then, you know, like, OK. And then we'll throw the cabins
up in the hills and we got a camp.
Well, we go back to to the old Hell Lloyd property, which was

(37:28):
right next door. And we had met, we had met Bert
Hell Lloyd. And we're there.
And we're just sort of thawing out.
And next thing I know it, my phone rings and answer.
And this is Hugh. Yeah.
Hey, Hugh, This is a this is Brett Botnick.
I know you don't know me from Adam, but I've lived up here my

(37:49):
whole life and I'm a realtor here in town.
And I was dear friends with Tommy Walters and Tom Catola.
And my father, Doc Walters, was your Doc?
Not not, I'm sorry, not my father.
Tommy's father, Doc Walters was,you know, the camp dock for so
many years. And I know you remember.
You remember Doc Walters? Yeah.

(38:11):
I mean, literally had the black bag.
And he'd come and, you know, visit the whole bed.
And he's like, well, here's the thing.
I owe it to Doc and my whole life, frankly, that's why I'm
making this phone call. I guess when when Brett was a
little kid, he always wanted to come to Kuchi Chang as a camper.
And he was in school one day andthey were doing a fitness test

(38:34):
and he collapsed on the mat. And they took him to the nurse
nurse's office and they called Doc Walters in.
He checked him out and it seemedlike everything was fine,
thought maybe he just fainted and got a little dizzy.
And and then I guess at the veryend of the the examination, he
noticed a little red spot on Brent's knee.
He said, hey, do you mind if I just prick that?

(38:56):
So he took a little blood sample, took it back.
The lab turned out that he had bone cancer and they amputated
him almost immediately. Otherwise not what he just lost
his legs would have lost his life.
So he said I've always had this fascination and sort of almost
like a love hate with because I always wanted to go there, but
obviously I couldn't. So I wanted to call you because

(39:19):
I know how much you know how much this place means to the to
the community, to myself, to allof you and I I know you guys are
thinking about trying to establish a girls camp here
permanently. Well, I just want you to be
aware that the house you're standing in right now and all
the land and property around it,it's is going to come up for
sale. It had been up for sale years

(39:40):
before at a much higher price. It was still, you know,
expensive, he said. But I've got developers in my
office right now, and they're circling and they're trying to
figure out, you know, how they're going to buy this and
they're going to carve it up. And, you know, if you're
thinking about having a girls camp here, there's no way that's
going to, you know, if that happens, there's no way you'll
be able to do it. I turned it.
I hang up the phone. I turned to Duke.

(40:00):
I said, Duke, we got to buy thisthing now.
And he said yeah. And he said yes.
And that was, and that was the beginning, you know.
And then from there, you know, we went on and we put the plan
together and, you know, so many people were a part of that
collaborative process. Dave Serrano, who is, you know,
he's the the lead land surveyor and and International Falls who

(40:21):
helped us with a site plan, you know, David Nilan and I could
tell a whole story about that, but maybe for another time that
helped us put the, you know, really, you know, had the vision
for the architecture. And then all the people that got
involved and and helped and supported from, you know, John
Berry, obviously Rich, the Pole family were very, very involved

(40:42):
in that. One guy that I have not
mentioned, Jeff, that had a hugeinfluence on me when I was a kid
growing up at Cooch, but also was super involved in helping
put this all together was Rich Thompson.
You know, Rich was my idol, I guess I would say when I was a
kid growing up and just had sucha admiration for him as a kid

(41:06):
and admired everything he did. And especially when he and Ecker
and all those guys went off and did the Arctic, which inspired
me 50 years later, right, to do to do the same.
But Rich was so helpful, not just in helping build it, but he
was the one who helped us put the land swap together that
allowed us to acquire about another 30 acres, which kind of
gave us the wilderness border tobuild it out.

(41:27):
But you know, I will tell you that going all the way back to
when I had those first interviews up at camp, I brought
Alice, my wife with me and, you know, to see, you know, the
opportunity to, to, to really develop a girls camp through her
eyes and the impact of that could have on young women.
And now knowing how involved sheis, but also my daughter, that

(41:51):
was a huge part for me to, to really get back involved and
then just to bring it all forward and, and bring it into
the modern day. And you know, so many great
camps that are out there, you know, Key Wade and, and Dudley
and Shawanke and all the ones that are on the East Coast, they

(42:14):
all started, you know, it's justlike us as a mom and pop right
right around the turn of the century.
And whatever their competitive advantage was, that's what they
build off. And for us, obviously it was
access to the Canadian wilderness.
But at some point you got to professionalize because it's
just it's a different world. And with all the risks that you
have, whether that's insurance, risk management, leadership

(42:36):
challenges, all of it, obviouslyhaving, you know, 2 camps, you
know, more than double the infrastructure and all the
logistics. I mean, I mean, back then what
we, maybe we put 1015 trips intothe wilderness.
We had one, we had one vehicle, the Green Monster.
We put over 90 trips into the wilderness.
We have a whole fleet. So all the logistics that go

(42:59):
behind that, all the risk that'sbehind that, it's just a
different world. And it requires us to run this
organization in a very professional way.
It's too big for one person. It requires tremendous
governance from our boards and requires tremendous leadership
from our team and. Well, they're booming.

(43:20):
I mean, the physical structures of, of Ogichi and, and, and
Cooch are, you know, Cooch's been there a while.
Ogichi, I mean, but and, and thekids and the numbers, it's, it's
all booming. We know it's booming.
They're both very, very, very strong, attracting great staff,
great kids, a lot of kids. And along with that, and you
know, and I coached for many years you at the college level.

(43:43):
And when I got out of coaching in O 9 to go to go try to do
something new. There's a legendary coach in our
league that looked at me and couldn't believe I was leaving
and said, you know, Jeff, there's there's one, very few
things in life while you're living that are guarantees.
But one of them is it's, it's going to change and there's been
a couple changes for, for us. I mean, it's going to happen,

(44:04):
like you said, I mean, it's the world we're in today.
And even to have a camp moving, I mean, to, to run a camp in
today's world, it's got to be, Ican't even imagine how difficult
that is from a legal, legal standpoint, from a liability
standpoint. But we've had we've, we've,
we've had to make a, you know, a, a big change from the, from

(44:26):
the history with the Native American program.
And, you know, I just want to get you, give you some time to
go into there. Obviously that was important to
both you and I. We loved it.
We honored it. You know, it was great.
But you know, for those that don't understand why this had to
happen, I, I think it's great that they do understand as, as
much as I loved it, I completelyunderstand what you were dealing

(44:48):
with. Yeah, it, well, one, thank you
for asking me that. And I would like to speak to it.
And it's to be honest, it's, it's it's a really tough
subject. It's very personal to me, as

(45:09):
I've referenced several times over the course of this that
John was a tremendous influence in my life.
And to think that, you know, it sort of rests on my shoulders to
make some of these changes now. It's hard.
And so to go back to some context around that because I

(45:30):
really want people to understandthat by no means was just a knee
jerk reaction. No, by no means was it just my
decision. But if you put it into context,
it's been at least 10 years now that we have struggled with some
aspects of our native program, not all of them and certainly
not the values behind them. That'll never go away.

(45:53):
That is the connection and the soul of Kuchi Chang.
I can tell you that growing up as a kid, I grew up in a very
mixed sort of goofy religious household.
And it wasn't until I came to Kuchi Chang that I really
understood, you know, kind of what religion and spirituality
meant for me and the connection to the land and how our native
program interfaced with our tripping program.
And that that meant so much. In fact, it wasn't till my my

(46:17):
wife Alice came to camp years later that she said, I finally
get you when she went on trips and understand just how powerful
that connection is. But if you go back 10 years, it
was really our own staff at Kuchi Chang that first brought
this to our attention and said one summer it was during pre
season. They came to myself and Jr. and

(46:39):
John Great, who you know who's actually celebrating a 95th
birthday. God love him.
In about 10 days and what an amazing person.
But John always has been our, you know, our Native American
expert advisor, art artists, allof it.
They came to us and say, hey, we're not comfortable wearing
wigs anymore. This doesn't feel right.

(47:02):
It feels like a costume. And even that at the time was
like, what, you know, I mean, this is what we had always done,
right? It never seemed out of place or
inappropriate in any way. And we kind of fought it a
little bit in the beginning. And then they really put their
foot down and say, hey, you know, we're not comfortable with
us and we're not going to dance if we have to keep wearing these

(47:22):
wigs. And we ultimately saw their
point and we made that change. And they know a couple years
later, no one thought the wiser of it.
Fast forward another couple years and we were continuing to
get just people questioned, you know, what we were doing and how
we were doing it. And it was coming from all over.
And so John and I came up with the idea to hold a couple just

(47:47):
councils essentially kind of round tables at camp during
preseason and and invite a number of Ajibwe educators and
scholars and leaders to camp andjust talk about what we were
doing and how we were doing it and get their feedback and
listen to them. And that kind of started that
process. And then from there, we continue

(48:08):
to do some outreach and got somefeedback.
And one of the hardest ones thatwe we got, and this was right
during the COVID time. And you know, this was just a
direct feedback that we got on our Honor Society midday.
We had some people in that essentially brought to our

(48:30):
attention that, you know, if yougo into a jib way culture and
history, the Madea 1 and the Medeo society is a religious
order. It's not a secret society.
It's a religious order. And there are 6 levels of a day
to become a six level Medeo and priest.

(48:51):
And we were given direct feedback on that, that there
wasn't probably anything more, Iguess, to say it offensive than
using that word, that name, the Honor Society itself and all it
stands for and the service, which is I know, you know, it's

(49:12):
the most important part of it. That's all great.
And the initiation and everything that goes in the
ceremony, fine, but just the useof the name.
And so just change the name. And also the giving of Indian
names is another very sacred honor within the Jubilee
culture. So the giving away of Indian
names is, you know, just felt tothem felt really, really wrong.

(49:35):
And I can tell you a personal story.
The gentleman who was on our board for a number of years, his
name is Dennis Jones, is the Jibway name is Pabon Memenes.
And I refers to himself as pay Bomb, the bomb.
Really, really great guy, quite funny.
We were over at the Oberholtzer Foundation.
He's on the board of the Oberholtzer Foundation as well.

(49:57):
Or he was. And I was telling him all about
our madeo and society, and he's just listening to me as he does.
And he looks me straight in the face and says, so are you a
Medea 1? And I kind of gulped.

(50:17):
And to this day I wish that I had answered this differently.
And kind of under my breath, I said yeah.
And he said OK. And six months later, when we
got back together to talk more about this, I said, Hey, I want
to just tell you something I really regret or I wish I

(50:37):
answered that question differently because obviously in
your society, I'm not a Madeoan.I'm not anywhere close to a
Madeoan. And he looked at me and he said,
in your society, you are. And that, I mean, I just to me
showed the gratitude and the grace that he had for our, our,
our Honor Society, what it stoodfor.
But I knew it was time to changeit.

(51:00):
And so we pivoted to that. We put a committee together and
we ultimately came up with a Latin phrase, adaspara ad Astra,
which means through adversity tothe stars.
And we thought that that was a great representation of what the
Honor Society stands for. So it's now called the Grand
honor of the Astra. And I can tell you that for

(51:20):
folks, for, you know, and I get it.
Look, I mean, people are two 3-4steps removed from all of this
and they're wondering what's going on and things are changing
and is it still the same? And is it still as hard and all
that, this and that, whatever else.
But I've said this a couple times.
Last summer I watched Henry Vandenbark make Astra and I

(51:43):
watched Charlie Hindley not. And I can tell you how much it
meant to Charlie just by watching it, how hard it was for
him to sit there and watch his best friend.
He was so proud of who made it, but he didn't.
So for anybody to suggest that it doesn't mean as much or it's
not as hard or it's not the same, come on up.

(52:04):
Because that's just that's that's not correct.
And so it every kid that goes through that place dreams of
having their name on the wall and they still do.
And it still means just as much.It is just as powerful.
So that was another step, Jeff. And then, you know, as we
continued on this journey, one of the things we were advised to

(52:24):
do was just to continue to reachout to a jib way elders and
scholars in our community, in our area, in the Radi River
district and get their opinion and their advice and try to get
them more involved and become the way it was phrased to us,
more native LED than native inspired.
And we've we've done that. We did that.

(52:47):
The one particular moment that I'll I never forget was we had
had these, the Jetway scholars into to observe Grand Council.
And I know you know this. I mean, this is something that
we've done over the years and we've gone out back in Holden's
time. They would go visit in the

(53:07):
reservations. That's not really something that
we're able to do anymore, but they would invite folks in.
That's not always as easy as said and done.
He said it's done. But we had these folks in and I
stood outside the council ring as they watched Grand Council
and I watched them watch Grand Council.
And it was really painful because I could just see the

(53:31):
reactions in their faces. Some of it was anger and some of
it was just really, you know, deep hurt and tears.
And the next morning we got together over at the Overholser
Foundation again with Pay Mom, and he led a ceremony where we
all shared that experience. I was there, Jr. was there, John
Great. Ryan London, who was the board

(53:53):
chair at the time, as they expressed how difficult it was
for them to watch what they had watched.
And they were very respectful inwhat they said, expressed that
it's it's very obvious that whatyou're doing, you're trying to
do it with as much honor and respect as you can.
We see that, but it's, you're not called, it's not your

(54:13):
culture to share. It's not yours.
And as much as you can take thisin respect that, you know,
dancing and drumming is a very spiritual part of a gibboy
culture and it's ours and it's not yours.
And so recognize and realize that so much has been taken from

(54:34):
us over many, many, many, many centuries, and a lot of pain and
a lot of harm and a lot of trauma.
And watching that just reinforces that and brings it
back up. I know that's really hard for
folks to hear because, you know,we think of it is we are trying
to honor, respect and always have is, you know, with
everything we've ever done. That was Mason's whole intent.

(54:56):
He's recorded in his books. But when you hear it first hand,
and I've heard it now too many times, I can't say it any other
way, but it's just simply the right thing to do.
Well, it is simply the right thing to.
Do it could be different to. I mean, I'm not in those
meetings. And you know, I had a talk with
Jim Shook and he was asking me about it a summer or two ago and

(55:18):
I said, Jim, look on the outsidelooking in.
You know how much I love the Native American part of this.
I mean, I was it's in my blood so deep.
Yeah, I don't want it to happen,but I'm not in those meetings.
I'm not hearing what's going on.You know, I can sit on the
outside and point fingers, but Idon't know.
But I, I think you, from what I'm hearing, what I can gather
and and piece together, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

(55:40):
You know, Mason and Holden had adifferent relationship with
maybe the people in the area back then as far as the Native
Americans in the area back then from John Netlake, you name it.
And you know, we all heard the story about the Roach.
Now we're dealing with a different group of people that
have a different view of it thatwe're dealing.
It's, it's a different world now.
Well, you know, that's they, they look at it a little bit

(56:04):
differently than what they looked at it back in the in the
50s and 60s and 70s, so to speak.
And I'm guessing you know. I think that I think that they
do look at, at differently. I think also to be fair, you

(56:26):
know, they have the, they have the courage now to express it
and to speak up and have more voice and agency than they ever
did. And it's just, I mean, if we
truly, truly want to honor them,that we have to be willing to
listen. And I, I don't know that we
always have or that we really think we're doing anything

(56:50):
wrong. And I get that and I understand
that and believe you me, you know, making this decision, you
know, and it certainly has absolutely the unanimous support
of the board. But it's heavy.
Sure. I don't want to, I don't want to
make this decision, Jeff. No, no, it's, I mean, it's,
it's, it's, it's sad and I'll never say it's not and it's

(57:13):
disappointing. But I go back to two things.
One, I know it's the right thingto do, but more importantly,
let's talk about where it goes. Yes, that's.
Good. That's really that's really.
And I want to start with by saying that, you know, dancing

(57:35):
and wearing the regalia grants grand council.
You know, that is the outward expression, that's the artistic
expression of the values that wehold so dear.
That starts with the law of the woods.
And just to be clear, the law ofthe woods is not a native
doctrine. It came out of earth.
Ernest Thompson Seaton, that's not native by any stretch.

(57:57):
Mason adopted it from there. But those values that are
expressed in the law of the woods that really truly speak to
how we not just honor this culture, but also how we view
the land and how we view the earth and all that.

(58:18):
All the respect that comes with that.
That's not going anywhere. That connection that that aspect
of it is more powerful than ever.
And I think that's really our challenge now is to figure out,
OK, how do we represent it in a different way?
And I think that starts just with really digging deeper into

(58:39):
our tripping program. We're a, we're a tripping camp.
I mean, go back to Holden again,Camp Kutching, A waterness
quest. You remember that that was they
branded that back in the 70s. We've always first and foremost
been a been a tripping camp. I mean, yeah, we were a football
camp way, way back, but we went from that.
I mean when Mason and Holden came in, it was the tripping

(59:01):
that really changed and that wasreally, you know, the impetus
for making Kuching what it is today.
So what I am hoping that we are going to focus on is just how do
we take our tripping program deeper in terms of the values
we're talking about. As an example, how many times
have I heard from alumni, Gosh, I wish I knew more about the

(59:24):
routes that we went on and wherewe went and the history behind
it. So there's a great opportunity
there to really dig into that more.
Our woodsmanship program. We can dig deeper and deeper.
Same thing with our crafts in terms of, you know, really
exploring, you know, native traditions and concepts behind
that. There's absolutely nothing wrong
with that at all. Again, the performance piece,

(59:48):
that's something that you know is really challenging, but just
figuring out how to honor those values even better and do but do
it in a deeper way and relate that back to our tripping
program. To me, that's where I think the
opportunity is. And then we have to get creative
and we have to think, OK, how dowe put how do we turn that into
a celebration? How do we turn that into a

(01:00:09):
ceremony? What does that actually look
like? And I be honest, I don't know
yet that's going to take a lot of creative thought, but.
Mason did it, Holden did it. So, you know, that's our
challenge today. And we have a lot of creative
individuals in this organization.
And I know, I know we will may not get it right, right out of

(01:00:29):
the gate, but I know we'll get there.
And I'd like to think a few years down the road, you know,
no one will even be the wiser. I mean, OK, well, this is the
this is now the modern program. This is now how we represent
those values. And they mean as much as ever.
And, and just take that on and see where it goes.
And so I think it's a great opportunity for current

(01:00:52):
leadership coming in and the leadership that's there now to
get involved in that. You know, so much a leadership
is really, as you said earlier, is, you know, how do you lead
through change? You know, that's called change
management. And whether we're talking about,
you know, the the kid who's had a Red Lodge or the unit head or
just the cabin staff guy and on up into senior leadership.

(01:01:14):
And there's an opportunity for everybody to get involved in
that and really come up with something that's going to be
powerful, that's going to resonate.
And we'll all look back on this 5 or 10 years and go look, look
what we did, look what we created and take it positive
versus kind of having one foot back in the old way and saying,
OK, well, you know, we're, we're, we're missing out or

(01:01:36):
we're losing out or it's not going to be as good.
Because I think it's, it's goingto be, it's going to be great.
It's just going to be different.Yeah.
Well, I know you in your position that that that's not an
easy spot. And you know, I know, I know how
much I know what we grew up withup there and how important that
was. And, and it's tough, I'm sure
for some of the old timers to see the change.
And I just hope they understand that this was a difficult thing.

(01:01:58):
And, and you try to see it through a different set of eyes.
You know, none of us, including you, really wanted to have to
make that decision. But you know, I think if they
would have heard everything. And I asked you this question, I
remember talking to you, I said he was this one or two people.
And you said, Jeff, no, ever. There's like 7 different groups
around the area, tribes groups, whatever that you went to

(01:02:22):
everyone of them and everyone ofthem had the same exact comment
back to you that hey, this is not, this is not good.
Basically this is, and you know,I, we never thought that way.
We never tried to do anything tohurt him.
That's for sure to disrespect them, but it is what it is.
And, and if that's how they feel, that's how they feel.
And you know, we'll put our bestfoot forward and, and get kids

(01:02:46):
are this is still a great place with some great people.
And and, you know, I think everybody understands that.
I also have to acknowledge that it's, you know, it takes time
for people to process this. You know, I've been, I've been
living and dealing, dealing withthis now for a number of years.
And so when you hear it first hand, I mean, I've talked to a
lot of people already and they're like, wow, I mean,

(01:03:08):
that's a gut punch. Wow, that's really sad.
It takes time. It takes time to absorb it.
And frankly, part of it is also the unknown.
Like you don't, you don't know where it's going to go, you
don't know what it's going to be.
And so I think until we get there, it's going to take people
time to process through that. And you know, and I, I respect

(01:03:29):
that. I'm not, you know, I'm not
trying to change anybody's mind or opinion or tell them that
they're wrong of me or tell themwhat we used to do was wrong,
because that's not the case at all by by any means.
But it is, it's the right thing to do.
It it it's time to move forward and we will, and we'll do that
in a, in a great way. I mean, you know.
I think to start even before you, I mean, talking to Steve

(01:03:50):
Hindley, he and I talked about it the other day and he had
mentioned, he said Kohl's. He said, listen, and the back in
the early 2000s when I was in this, we were getting calls
starting, starting up. So this has been going on for a
while. The call started a long time
ago, 25 plus years ago, questioning, you know, and we've
been trying to keep it there as long as we have.

(01:04:10):
And yeah, it is what it is, you know.
But hey, that's why the good Lord put eyes in the front of
our head for a reason. We're going to keep moving
forward here. Another way to to say it or
think about it, and this kind ofrelates to, you know, the other
part of the organization now, which is just as vibrant as
anything. And that's our urban program,

(01:04:31):
which I'll, I want to touch on alittle bit, is that we are a
microcosm of society. You know, I referenced way back
when, you know, we were isolatedup there.
We were a bubble. We are the farthest thing from a
bubble anymore. I mean, we have influences from
every direction. We have challenges from every
direction. And so, you know, we truly are a

(01:04:53):
microcosm of society in every way, shape and form.
And we do that the absolute bestthat we can to keep a lot of
aspects of that out. You know that I mean, we, we've
always said that, I mean, at camp, it's just about camp.
And one thing that you and I haven't talked a whole lot about
or just sad and you know this aswell as anyone, camp has always
been about fun, always been about fun.

(01:05:15):
If it's not fun, then kids aren't coming back.
So for the kids, you know, all this stuff is in the background,
you know, want to make it as funand as it powerful, as
impactful. And, you know, I can speak to
that first hand with my three kids at camp and my wife.
I mean, camp is more meaningful than ever.
It's more impactful than ever. Kids need this more than ever.

(01:05:37):
They're disconnected nature, their addiction to screens or
their overuse of screens and everything over scheduling.
You know, parents, we think of it as a reset.
I know that's how we look at it.And so it's so powerful.
And I think one thing that you know, I'm particularly proud of
and I can speak for others in this regard, is, you know, how
we've expanded camp, both up at camp and then also through our

(01:06:02):
urban program just to reach thatmany more kids.
You know, we have an amazing scholarship program now up at
camp between Kuchana Gitchi, close to 100 kids.
There aren't some form of scholarship.
And then with our urban program,which we started now, it's been
about 13 years, you know, we areserving between Cincinnati and
Minneapolis and some outer cities, you know, 3-4 thousand

(01:06:26):
kids a year. And these are all kids that
would hardly ever get this type of opportunity.
You know, for those that don't know a lot about this program,
it's probably 15 years ago now that I went to the board and
kind of just threw out this ideaof, hey, how do we export the
magic of the Northwoods to an urban environment?
What would that look like? Why do we have to bring kids all

(01:06:47):
the way up here and into Canada for them to have a similar
experience, even if it's in a shortened form?
And I'd be a liar if I sat here and told you I had it all
figured out back then. I didn't by any means.
I had a vision, I had an idea. And I think back to the
beginning and all the folks thatwere involved and developing

(01:07:08):
that, you know, starting, you know, all the various program
directors from Melinda Roscoe, now Melinda Bowers to Kit
Summers and Susie Jolly and now Trey Stunning, who is just
taking the program to another level.
It's been amazing to watch how this is developed and the impact
that it has. And, you know, through Harbor

(01:07:28):
Wilderness, we get kids up to camp.
We get them to Oakanzi, our outpost.
And you know, Steve Sullivan, I know Sully said this to me when
we were first starting this program.
He's like, I don't get it. Like, you know, we're taking
kids out for a day or so, you know, on the Ohio River or the
Little Miami and, you know, how's that going to be
impactful? And, you know, he was driving

(01:07:50):
the, the bus for us back then toget the kids out.
And I remember the, the very first trip we did down the Ohio
and, you know, you drop the kidsoff.
And these kids, most of them have never been in a canoe.
They've never been on the water.They're nervous as hell.
They're shaking like a leaf. And we, we load them up and

(01:08:11):
then, you know, they come back at the end of the day.
And Sully looks at me. He's like, it's just like camp
man. It's just like returning from a
trip. I mean, it's just as impactful
in one day with these kids as itis for, you know, what we do up
at camp for 10 days or two weeksor more so.
And it gets a little taste in their mouth.
They want them to keep, to keep going further.

(01:08:32):
There's more to this, you know, I want to see what's further
down the road to do more of this, you know, But it gives
them just enough. And I've seen all the notes in
the office on the board. It's just amazing the number of
kids that write thank you notes to you guys for this, for this
program. It's just it's a great thing.
It is. And you know, one of the great
aspects of this program that I was hoping for, again, didn't

(01:08:57):
know if it would evolve this way, but we now have more
people, more staff working in urban waters whole time than we
do the rest of the offseason leadership team.
You know, with all that we're serving both in Minneapolis, in
Cincinnati. And what's so impactful about
that is that all those individuals who are key summer

(01:09:17):
leaders are at camp in the summertime.
And these are all people that wewouldn't normally be able to
retain. They'd already be off, you know,
doing their own thing and would be able to keep them.
And they're, they're excellent at what they do.
And we've got outdoor program people.
We've got Maddie Anderson, who'sa fabulous grant writer, the
Dunning Brothers, on and on and on.

(01:09:39):
Abby Aron up in in Minneapolis. And to go into the schools and
watch these guys teach these kidhow to make a handmade canoe.
And it's just a great STEM project and teachers eat it up.
It's, it's, it's really, it's, it's really powerful to see it,
to watch and to see how we've been able to expand that.
So that's, you know, it kind of goes back to your point about

(01:10:03):
the complexity of this place, But, you know, it's all for the
better. And I'd be remiss if I didn't
sit here and give it just a tremendous thanks to all the
alumni out there that support this place.
You know how tough that is. You've been in a development
role, you know, a good number ofyears now, and you never take

(01:10:24):
that for granted, right? I mean, that's just, you know,
it doesn't matter the amount when so whatsoever.
It's back to Tim's phrase, Many hands make light work.
And it's been an amazing journeyto evolve that and to be where
we are now with that type of support.
It's what makes this whole thinggo.
And no doubt without it, withoutit, we wouldn't be here.

(01:10:47):
That's right, it is I've reconnected with people here and
and I've talked to him. I said, look there there there's
been a lot of people before us that gave their time and their
talent their treasure so that wecan enjoy camp our years.
It's our turn to step up now to keep this thing going.
So many kids are relying on us. So and I really hit home with
them. And that's why I'm I'm so

(01:11:08):
grateful, Hugh, that you've allowed me to come back and be a
small part of the organization and just, you know, get re
engaging with our alumni. And I've been loving every
second of it and really, really,really look forward to getting
people from from our era back involved in and to tell the
stories that we've had. And you know it, it's going to
be great. So, you know, as we wrap this

(01:11:29):
up, is there anything else that that you'd like to share or show
or tell or that you want to talkabout?
3 little things come to mind. OK, one is when I was a first
year senior working on my then my day project and I was
replacing one of the, at that time wooden basketball

(01:11:53):
stanchions. Yes.
And I had no idea what I was getting myself into with this
project. And as I dug deeper and deeper
and deeper, eventually hit water, I was over my head.
And as you know, you know, you got to walk by the basketball
court to get to the dining hall.And John Holden's cabin is right

(01:12:16):
there. And every day he'd walk by me.
And he, you know, kind of look at it.
And, you know, John hardly ever said anything.
I'm convinced of this, Jay. My one regret is I didn't know
John is an older person because I always wanted to ask him, you
know, what was the secret behind, you know, his silence
and his strength. And I'm convinced it was the
pipe and that he had that pipe in his mouth so he wouldn't say

(01:12:39):
anything and he'd just bite downon it, right.
So every day he walks by and I'mgetting deeper and deeper and
deeper and deeper and literally I, it's at one point I'm over my
head. And 11 morning, he's walking by
and he's, he stops and he looks down and I am literally over my
head now. And he hadn't said a word.
He looks down and he takes his pipe out and he's like, that's

(01:13:00):
one hell of a hole. And that's all he said he walked
on. So, you know, that's 1-2.
You know, one of the best trips I ever took was the Seal River.
And I know that so many have. And, you know, you come into my
house to see books about polar bears all over the place.
Yeah, because I had a couple encounters on that trip and

(01:13:24):
that's something I will never, ever forget as long as I live
paddling across the Bay and, youknow, coming close with some of
those encounters. That is just that just really
speaks to the influence and and the magnitude of being out there
in the power of nature, which, you know, there's there's
nothing that replaces that. And then lastly, Jeff, I just

(01:13:46):
want to share one thing too. I think you know that we are,
we're going through some leadership changes.
It's a moment in time. This place is not static.
It it does move forward. We've had an amazing amount of
people that have been involved in this place.
Whether you're talking about a cabin staff person, you're
talking about someone that's helping in the kitchen, you're

(01:14:08):
talking about leadership and andcertainly up to the director
roles and had the good fortune of knowing most of them.
And I just want to acknowledge the tremendous service and work
and gifts that both J Arbor Campand Johanna Ernst have given to
this place over the years. They will leave a legacy that is

(01:14:32):
really powerful. I don't know who was it first
said, if it was Holdner, maybe even back to Vance who said
always leave the campsite betterthan you found it.
And I think both of those two have done that.
And I just want to acknowledge what they've done and I want to
wish them well in the in their new pursuit and just thank them.
Yep, Great, great. Well, Hugh, thanks for

(01:14:58):
everything, man. I mean, I think what you've done
with this place and where you, what you build to this at this
point, it's just, it's just amazing.
You know, we've, I think you've got us aligned in a, in a safe
place for the, in a, in a not aneasy time to run a camp, you
know, but I know we, we talked quite a bit and, and the
capacity of the things that you're dealing with is just

(01:15:19):
tremendous. I feel, you know, of what's on
your plate. And personally, I want to thank,
I know on behalf of everybody involved with the camps that we
can have a place like this. Thanks for all your efforts and
all you deal with. And I know it's not easy some
days, but we appreciate you hanging tough and, you know,
can't wait to catch up with you again here soon.

(01:15:40):
Hey, it's it's an honor and I'm blessed.
My family's blessed. And thank you, Jeff.
Really appreciate it, man. Alright, thanks again.