March 3, 2025 • 51 mins
In this engaging and mouth-watering episode, we explore the fascinating world of smoking and grilling meats, guided by the expertise of our guest, Michael Waller. Listeners will appreciate the distinctions between grilling and barbecuing, illuminating how each method contributes to the deliciousness of our favorite meats. The conversation kicks off with cherished family memories of Thanksgiving, grounding our culinary pursuits in the love of food shared among generations.
Throughout the episode, we shed light on the Maillard reaction, a pivotal process behind the golden crust found on cooked meats that enhances flavor and aroma. Michael shares his hands-on experience and essential tips, helping listeners utilize tools that enhance their barbecue game, potentially transforming novice cooks into confident pitmasters.
We dive deep into the importance of temperature control, discussing common challenges faced during cooking and offering practical solutions to ensure juiciness in every bite. This episode is not only informative but also emphasizes the emotional connections we forge through cooking, as we encourage listeners to bring their families together over warm, hearty meals.
If you’re ready to take your grilling skills to the next level while embracing the cozy traditions of family gatherings, subscribe, share, and leave us a review! Join the conversation and share your cherished cooking stories as we continue our journey through the delicious landscape of barbecue culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynn Dimick (00:09):
Welcome to Grandpa Is Him.
Several years ago we decided tospend Thanksgiving with my
parents, so we picked up some ofthe grandkids and we drove down
to their place in central Utah.
It was a beautiful, clear fallday in central Utah.
It was a beautiful, clear fallday.
We were enjoying the changingleaves, the scenery, even the
(00:32):
cool air, and we were enjoyingthe smell of the burning leaves
as we drove through some ofthese small towns.
We drove through one small townwhere one of the homeowners was
burning his leaves and mygrandson in the back said Mmm,
this smells good.
It smells like Sunday dinner atgrandpa's house.
He learned to equate that smokysmell with good tasting meat
and Sunday dinner.
So I want to share with yousome tips and experiences on
(00:56):
smoking meats.
This week we're going to betalking about smoking, grilling
and barbecuing and what some ofthe differences are.
One of the things that happenswhen we cook food is something
called the Maillard effect orthe Maillard reaction, and what
this is.
It's a chemical reaction thatoccurs when proteins and sugars
(01:16):
are heated.
The result is brownness and thedevelopment of complex flavors
and aromas.
This is what makes food tastegood.
This happens on every kind offood that has sugars or proteins
, for example, bread.
The crust is bread and whathappens is that when these
things are heated, it creates adifferent flavor that is very
(01:38):
tasty.
So actually, if you want goodbread, eat the crust.
The same thing goes with meat.
If you want good tasting meat,eat the outside.
That's where the real flavorscome from, but that's just the
precursor to what we're going totalk about today.
I am happy to introduce to youMichael Waller, my son-in-law,
(01:59):
who is an avid smoker.
He knows what he's talkingabout, and we're going to talk
about smoking and grilling today.
I hope you enjoy.
And I's talking about, andwe're going to talk about
smoking and grilling today.
I hope you enjoy, and I knowthat by the time we're done, my
mouth is going to be watering.
All right, mike, thanks forjoining us.
First of all, let's start offby talking about what got you
interested in barbecuing.
Mike Waller (02:18):
Well, you're my father-in-law, so you got a
feeling to be honest For Sundaydinners and having steaks and
everything else like that.
I just decided that I felt likeI could increase the taste
profile from just the meat, toadd a seasoning and doing things
a little bit differently.
Lynn Dimick (02:37):
Well, that's not a bad way to start it.
I'm dealing with the handicap,or the challenge of having some
people that don't like the extraflavor and they think that the
meat's just fine the way it is.
Yeah, all right now, briefly,what in your mind is the
difference between grilling andbarbecuing and smoking?
Mike Waller (02:55):
so I kind of feel like grilling and barbecuing is
the same, just grilling is withpropane, barbecue probably it's
going to be more of the you know, the charcoal briquette.
And then smoking is anything todo with wood.
Okay, what is your preference?
I prefer smoking.
I tend to team up my smokerwith my grill.
(03:15):
I'll do something low and slowand then I'll finish it off on
the grill as a reverse sear.
Lynn Dimick (03:20):
When it comes to the steaks or chicken, Are there
times when it works better togo hot and fast if you will like
a grill or a barbecue versussmoking.
What kind of meats work betterwith the hot and fast?
Mike Waller (03:32):
Hot and fast.
I prefer burgers that way,maybe chicken breasts over
chicken thighs, sometimes athinner steak, something that
doesn't have as as much meat toit like a london broil.
It's really a top.
Sirloin is really good on agrill.
But when you get to the the lowand slow I've found you know
(03:56):
anything to do with pork, thatlow and slow is a way to go.
Or a big cut of meat, say atri-tip or a brisket.
Those are the main ones that Itend to go with for low and slow
, but I do use my poker a lotfor chicken thighs.
I'll set it about 350 and letit cook with the smoke what's
(04:19):
the advantage of low and slowversus hot and fast?
Lynn Dimick (04:21):
I remember one time I went to the grocery store and
I picked up a nice tri-tip andthe guy behind the counter
brought it out and said here yougo.
He says that'll be great lowand slow.
And I said, uh-uh, this is hotand fast and it turned out
really good.
But I found that at one pointlow and slow does come out
better.
What's the difference in howthe meat cooks?
Mike Waller (04:40):
I feel like low and slow.
It allows the juices, theinternal juices of the meat, to
soak in Hot and fast.
It's just making it brown.
Lynn Dimick (04:51):
You know you're right, because what we do is we
try and smoke the meat atsomewhere between 225 and 250,
maybe 275.
Now, for those of you sciencemajors or non-science majors out
there, water boils at 212degrees and so what we're doing
is we're heating the meat tojust above boiling so that the
water is not leaving the meat asfast, so it tends to be more
(05:14):
tender and a little bit slowerand a little bit more flavorful,
because we're not cooking orboiling out all the flavor.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe differences of the grilling
and the barbecuing, and what doyou think are some of the
essential tools that are neededfor barbecuing?
Let's say, well, we've got acouple of friends in common that
are in their 18s to 20 year old.
(05:34):
They're going to be moving outsometime in the future.
What would you recommend thatthey start out their barbecuing
adventures?
With what equipment?
So you're saying barbecuing?
Well, okay, let's go withsmoking.
Mike Waller (05:44):
Whatever you think.
You know, I don't suggest thatsomeone starts out with a smoker
.
I feel like the best thing tostart out with is just a propane
grill For someone you knowyounger age moving out on their
own.
You can get one of those littletabletop barbecues.
You know grills propane grillsthat run off of the little
Coleman propane tank.
(06:06):
I think that that's the bestway to start.
Then from there you probablyadvance to a charcoal grill, one
of those little black dome oneslike the little shuttles yeah,
the little kettles and then fromthere you you start to notice
the difference in taste and thenyou want to explore some things
(06:27):
.
Or, if you live in Texas Ilived there for a while you
don't do anything without asmoker.
I mean, you get some great theycall it barbecue there, but you
get some great smoked meatsthat just intrigue you and you
want to just do it better.
Lynn Dimick (06:51):
Now the only.
I don't want to argue it, but Ithink I think we need to let
them know that if they get asmall charcoal, one like a
hibachi, where it's a rectangle,they can put the coals on one
side for the hot side and thenstill leave the other side free
for the cooler zone.
What do you?
Mike Waller (07:03):
think I've seen that done.
I've never had great successbecause of the fact that the
circulation of that heat doesn'thappen throughout the entire
grill.
On those, if you do one sidehot and one side on cold, with
no coals or anything there, youtend to get a sear on just half
(07:23):
of that meat and you're alwayshaving to constantly move it and
it fluctuates on the.
You know the doneness.
Lynn Dimick (07:30):
What other tools do you think they need, besides
just a grill of some sort?
Mike Waller (07:33):
I sound that a good you know.
Good meat thermometer is key.
Once I learned to not grill orsmoke by look and started
probing the meat, trying tocheck temperature across
multiple zones of the meat,that's when I started realizing
that I was making much betterfood.
Lynn Dimick (07:54):
You know that is such a critical point that I
don't think people understandwhen they start out is that
you're not cooking for theoutside color.
You're cooking for the insidetemperature.
Why the temperature?
Because it doesn't matter whatcolor it is.
It has to be up to a certainpoint for it to be safe and for
it to be done.
Do different meats cook or dothey require to get to a
different temperature?
Mike Waller (08:14):
Well, I mean, yeah, so beef has the tendency that
you could cook it at a raretemperature.
Cook it at a rare temperature,you know, 115 to 130, and it's
perfectly safe to eat whenchicken poultry you want to cook
(08:36):
that at least to 165.
I don't even when I'm smokingchicken on the smoker or
grilling it, I don't pull it offuntil it's at least 175, 180,
just to get that extra littlebit of heat into the meat and
have whatever fats in therestart to render.
Lynn Dimick (08:48):
and this way, it's so critical to be careful with
your cooking temperature becauseit may burn before you can get
up to that internal temperature.
The outside skin can becompletely blackened and you're
still dealing with somethingthat's pink and runny yeah, I
mean we, we've had that problembefore, right, like we've had
some.
Mike Waller (09:07):
We've had some chicken early on that may have
been a little bit frozen in themiddle and we're trying to cook
it on the grill and put stuff onit.
Lynn Dimick (09:15):
Well, and you and you bring up an interesting
point.
Because chicken is cooked onceit is 165 to 170 internal, but
because they're selling smallerand younger chickens and they're
growing faster, they may be 165degrees, but still peak in the
middle even though it's 165.
Mike Waller (09:36):
That's a great topic right there that I want to
touch on the mass producedchicken in the world right now.
If you know what goes intogetting those chickens to size,
you know what goes into togetting those chickens to size
that you probably wouldn't wantto ingest.
That I've been kind of leaningtoward trying to find a more
organic approach.
Lynn Dimick (09:54):
one of the other concerns I have is that anytime
you buy any meat from the, fromthe grocery store, particularly
poultry, it's going to be soinjected with crap, I mean 30%
water and everything else andall these other things that may
make it look good, but it kindof fights the process of smoking
(10:15):
.
Mike Waller (10:15):
It really does, because you know you get some of
that.
You know the chicken breast ora whole chicken from the grocery
store.
It has so much water in it thatas you're smoking it you're
fighting the internaltemperatures the whole time.
And then once it actually getsto temp you know 165, 175, it's
(10:36):
already dried out in the middleThen it becomes, you know, not
as enjoyable.
Lynn Dimick (10:40):
And nothing like eating charcoal that tastes
worse than what you startedcooking with.
Now, the other problem with thefirst time griller is keeping
the temperature under control,because I don't know about you,
but I have never yet seen athermometer on the outside of a
barbecue or a grill that I wouldtrust.
Yeah, so how do you?
How do you control thetemperature?
How do you know what's right?
Mike Waller (11:01):
or do you bother with it, or you know, on a on a
smoker, it's one thing.
Right, I have a one of thehigher end smokers in a rec tech
and it has constant monitoringmonitoring through a wi-fi
signal to my phone.
But when I first got it Ididn't trust it, so I I went in
(11:21):
there and I broke it and I and Iactually found the hot spot in
my smoker first off right,there's always going to be a hot
spot in it, and so I found thathot spot by trying to not put
anything on there unless Iwanted to cook faster.
Lynn Dimick (11:38):
You know you bring up a good point and that is the
idea of hot spots.
Even a smoker has hot spotsbecause normally what they do is
they've got the pellets on oneside, they seed them through
into a hot burning area becauseyou've got to burn the fuel and
anything over that pot, whereit's burning the pellets or
whatever it is, is going to behotter.
So you do have hot and coldspots on a grill, no matter what
(12:00):
kind it is.
Yeah, I mean on your Camp Chefyou probably have that, that hot
spot over the pot.
I do a little bit.
It seems to be more towards theback left just a little bit not
quite centered.
Mike Waller (12:13):
Okay, mine, mine's on the front right corner of my
grill gets the hottest, but minealso has a an airflow dam
through it that pushes the heatall the way through and that's
first major turn in it.
Lynn Dimick (12:25):
We've talked a little bit about the meat.
Now let's start talking aboutgetting the right flavoring.
Is there a particular fuel orflavor of fuel that you prefer,
and how does that affect thetaste of the?
Mike Waller (12:36):
meat.
So it depends on what you'remaking.
So if I'm making pork I tend togo with something that has like
a fruit wood, so apple orcherry, something like that.
I've had some success withadding.
There's charcoal pellets outthere, adding a little bit of
charcoal pellets and apple woodwhile smoking a pork butt.
(12:56):
It adds an extra layer offlavor.
But for steak, for beef or forchicken, I really don't see a
huge difference in the type ofpellet that I use.
But I don't know, I guess Idon't pay enough attention to
that.
My rubs and seasoning that Iuse, you know, overpowers that
(13:17):
Okay.
Lynn Dimick (13:18):
You talked about rubs, and that's our next topic
of conversation here.
Do you have a preferred recipefor a rub that you like?
Mike Waller (13:25):
so my my favorite rub.
I don't make any of my rubshomemade, I buy produced ones.
Um, my favorite family rub thatwe have here is called casey's
butt rub and I put that stuff oneverything.
It's made for pork butt but weput it on chicken, we put it on
beef.
Everything that we put that onon everything.
It's made for pork butt butwe've put it on chicken, we've
(13:45):
put it on beef, everything thatwe put that on it comes out
absolutely amazing.
My kids ask me all the time tomake butt chicken, chicken
breast on my grill coated withsome of the Casey's butt rub.
Lynn Dimick (14:01):
When you put a rub on what are the ingredients you
look for in particular, Do youjust go for that one can.
Mike Waller (14:06):
No, I have quite a few different spices that I run.
Lynn Dimick (14:11):
The main thing that I'm looking for is no MSG,
don't go there with me becausethat stuff is nasty, and there's
people that deny that it doesanything and they're wrong.
Mike Waller (14:21):
I get horrible migraines from it.
I just thing in the wrong.
I get horrible migraines fromit.
Lynn Dimick (14:28):
I just I cannot have it in anything that I have.
Okay, you talked about spicesand herbs a little bit there.
Normally, for poultry, you'regoing to want to look for
something that's got parsley,sage, thyme, something that's a
little bit more forward withthat.
For beef, you're going to belooking at something more along
the salt and pepper line.
For the pork, you tend to lookfor the fruit type flavors, not
just in the wood but in the rubs.
Now, salt when you're cookingwith salt, it does two different
(14:51):
things.
Number one is when you pre-saltmeat, it opens up the pores and
draws the water out.
The reason for drawing thewater to the surface is that it
moves it around a little bitbetter.
It makes the meat more tender.
And then there's also theconcept of using salt as a final
flavor, and you don'tnecessarily taste as much salt
(15:13):
if it's pre-salted than if youput it on afterwards.
So I just want to get that outof the way.
Do you do a lot of pre-saltingbefore you cook?
I find that really unusual,even me.
Mike Waller (15:24):
Very, yeah, that's where we vary.
I do not, I do not free saltanything.
What I do is I take that rubthat I'm going to be using, um,
and, to be honest, a lot oftimes when I'm smoking something
, I'm using a couple differentrubs that I have and they vary
depending on, you know, the sageand herb stuff.
(15:46):
I prefer more like a cayenne,chili pepper, salt and pepper
kind of mix, almost a Texas typerub, yeah, with a little bit of
sweet, right, so some sugar.
But what I'll do is I'll put alight layer of that on and I'll
pat it into the meat and I'lllet it sit up for about 20
minutes and then I'll that onand I'll pat it into the meat
(16:06):
and I'll let it sit up for about20 minutes and then I'll go in
and I'll coat it heavy and then,if I have the time, then I'll
let that sit, hopefullyovernight, and then put it on
the smoker.
That's the best that I've found.
Lynn Dimick (16:18):
What's the number one ingredient in most rubs
Sugar, and then salt or salt.
So, in a way, you are going toend up pre-salting, and that's
what I wanted to bring on.
Next is the problem that peoplelike me are going to have is,
if you pre-salt the meat and youget a nice coating of salt on
it and then you throw a rub onit which is mostly salt, you've
over-salted the meat, yep.
(16:40):
So I think that your way mightbe a better way to go.
I have to do some moreexperimenting with that.
Mike Waller (16:45):
There is a difference, right.
Like I've had your steaks whereyou've pre-salted your steaks
tend to come out a littlejuicier than mine.
Like you can cook a perfectmedium rare steak on your grill
or on your stoker and it's sojuicy and so delicious where
when I cook mine I'm hard to getit to that medium rare.
(17:08):
I cook it to more of a mediumand that's where I can get the
juiciness.
So I'm wondering if salt hasanything to do with locking in
that those juices.
Lynn Dimick (17:18):
It might, but I find that I think the difference
is is that I don't I don't doas good of a hard sear on the at
the end as you do, because I'mI'm afraid that if I'm going to
do a good hard sear and I use ablow torch for my heart for my
final sear, I literally have acooking torch and I'll just run
it right over the meat until itblackens up the outside.
The problem is is that ifthere's any rub left, it burns
(17:40):
the rub.
Yeah, so I lose a lot of theflavor from the rub.
If I do it that way, I'm notgoing to lie.
Mike Waller (17:47):
One of the best steaks I've ever had you made.
You've got it down to science.
I think that I just have more.
I have more of the Texas style.
How would you?
Lynn Dimick (17:57):
describe the Texas style.
Mike Waller (17:59):
Low slow salt pepper and over-seasoned.
Lynn Dimick (18:03):
They love to use their oak with the wood it's.
The other thing that'sinteresting too about cooking is
that a lot of people will uselike charcoal to start it and
get the base fire going.
So they set the temperaturethat way and then they'll put
two or three pieces of wood onthere, whether they're oak or
cherry or something else, to getthe smoke you know, that's
something that I do want to try.
Mike Waller (18:24):
Like, I want to get one of those little kettle
grills and get that.
You know that nice 225 from thecharcoal and just throw a
couple chips on there.
See what that turns out like.
Okay, I do put the charcoalpellet in sometimes when I'm
cooking stuff and I just don'tfeel like I get all that
(18:45):
charcoal flavor, which I love.
Lynn Dimick (18:47):
Yeah, I love that too.
It takes me back to mychildhood.
That's the problem they havewith the barbecue competitions
is that what they're cooking foris for a one-bite judgment.
A judge takes one bite and it'snot the kind of thing that they
serve at their neighborhoodbarbecue.
They don't serve it to theirfamily that way.
It's a very different thing.
So I don't like the barbecuecompetitions because people
(19:08):
think that that's the bestbarbecue, but it's not.
It's the best single bite.
Mike Waller (19:13):
My ward has an annual barbecue competition and
I've had some people over andmade them the smoked tri-tip
with the reverse sear and theylove it.
One of the guys his name isGreg.
He's like my dad.
I've adopted him as a family.
He actually took my method ofthe slow and slow and then
(19:37):
reverse sear and he perfected itand turned it in and he he won
unanimously with it that thatwas my method.
Lynn Dimick (19:46):
I didn't have time well, and that's the beauty of
this is that everybody can shareand everybody can do their own
thing.
Now what's the best way toapply the rub?
You already talked aboutputting it on for 20 minutes and
then trying to do it overnight.
How thick do you put it on?
Because I see some of theserecipes where they say use a
quarter of a cup.
Well, crap, if I put a quartercup on it, it's going to have a
(20:06):
quarter inch all the way aroundit of nothing but spices.
Mike Waller (20:09):
So I think again, that's where we vary, right?
Like you're following a recipe,I'm following touch and feel.
If I can feel that meat and Ican feel that it has a good
amount of seasoning on it, Ijust leave it.
Lynn Dimick (20:22):
What does that feel like?
Is it?
Is it, is it muddy, or is itdry like sand?
Mike Waller (20:26):
it's almost like I tend to go with, like a 180 grit
sandpaper feel okay, right, ithas some texture to it.
You know that there's somethingthere, but it's not super rough
, super coarse.
But on a it's a different,different, it's a different
beast.
Lynn Dimick (20:41):
There I go real heavy on a brisket because it
sweats it all out okay, I'veonly done the one brisket and it
turned out great, but you do agood job on your briskets.
In fact, there's more than onetime in the last month that I've
wanted a bucky's brisketsandwich.
What's that?
You and me bowl.
We had a girl that moved heremoved from california to texas
about a month ago, and we toldher listen, no matter what you
(21:04):
do, I don't care if you die onthe road.
Go to a bucky's first and get a, get a brisket sandwich.
And she says what's bucky's?
I said I can't even describe it, but just get one.
And she got one.
She texted back says oh my gosh, now I know why?
Mike Waller (21:20):
yeah, I mean that.
That brings us to another topichomemade versus store-bought
seasoning.
Lynn Dimick (21:25):
Right, I tend to buy most of my seasonings every
time I go to bucky's becausethey have such well and you've
got a good store just up thestreet from you, but it seems
like their hours are so bad Ithink they close at five most
times, so I I can never make itthere.
Mike Waller (21:40):
Yeah, the thing that I like about Barbecue Pit
Stop here in Lehigh Utah theylet you taste everything, so you
can taste all of the seasoningsand what you want.
So, depending on what I'mmaking, I'll go in there and
I'll taste 20 differentseasonings to find out what I
want.
Lynn Dimick (21:58):
This may be where we start the world on fire.
Let's talk about pork ribsRight now.
There's two major thoughtprocesses here.
One is that you cook thempartway and then you wrap them
with foil and finish braisingthem, and then there's heathens
like you that say no foil.
Mike Waller (22:20):
Explain why I do it both ways.
I mean, I've tried both ways.
Right now I am on the.
I'm not wrapping it in foil andI will wrap it in butcher paper
.
I don't like the foil because Ifeel like all of the juices and
(22:42):
water that's coming out of ittakes away the bark of the meat.
It absolutely does, becauseyou're sopping it up.
Yeah, so me personally, if Icould get it down to a scion, I
would probably just cook itstraight straight through, Okay.
Lynn Dimick (22:59):
How long does it normally?
Mike Waller (23:00):
take to do a rack If I don't take it off and wrap
it about four hours.
Okay.
Lynn Dimick (23:04):
The common method that I see these days is called
3-2-1.
You cook it for three hours at225, and you baste it about
every half hour with apple sauceor something I'm sorry, apple
juice Then you wrap it for twohours and then you finish it off
for an hour.
Now, during the time it'swrapped, you would normally well
.
What I do is I put themargarine on top of the ribs
(23:26):
inside the foil to add some ofthe fat back in, and then I'll
put a little bit of brown sugarand maybe a little bit of honey,
because that gives it just thatlittle bit sweeter flavor.
But, as you said, it does kindof take the bark away but it
makes for a sweeter rib.
And then for the last hour youunwrap them and let it go with
(23:46):
some barbecue sauce and yousmoke that until it's gooey.
Yeah, I find that the threehours before the wrap makes it
cook too fast.
Mike Waller (23:55):
Yeah, when I do that method I do a 2-2-1 method.
So two hours, you know,unwrapped, and then I'll wrap it
.
I do not baste it though at all.
When I start my rack, I willput little chunks, you know
(24:15):
little flats of butter on top ofit and I just let it go for the
two hours.
I don't touch it, I don't openthe lid, I don't do anything, I
just let it cook.
Then I'll pull it off, I'll putit in into foil or butcher
paper and I'll pour just alittle bit of juice in there.
You know some apple juice witha little bit of apple cider
(24:37):
vinegar, and that's it.
I'll add.
Sometimes I add a little bit ofseasoning into the bottom, but
I don't do the sugar do you, Ithink.
Lynn Dimick (24:45):
I think your ribs are more traditional in mind in
that you leave it, so there's alittle bit of a bite.
You got to bite and pull alittle bit more to get the meat
off the bone.
In our household here theyprefer to have the meat falling
off the bone, so that's why itmight go a little bit longer.
I think that's the bigdifference.
Yeah, the other thing is isthat there's three different
kinds of pork ribs.
(25:05):
There's the St Louis, the fullrack and then the baby back, and
they cook at different times,different speeds, because
they're different.
They're not necessarilydifferent cuts of meat, but
they're trimmed differently.
Do you have a preference forthat?
Which ones?
Mike Waller (25:20):
um, I I strictly do baby back ribs.
I don't, I don't do the stlouis or the the full racks of
ribs.
Uh, one of the things that I dowant to try is I want to do
some dino beef ribs at somepoint alan king does those, he
does those and, um, I was, theywere good, but they were, I
(25:43):
don't know.
Lynn Dimick (25:43):
In my mind they were overdone a little bit
because there was no.
There was no pink left in themat all, and so it's kind of like
eating, it's so like a hairybrisket.
This would have felt like afurry.
Mike Waller (25:55):
I mean, it's a science, right.
So we had in texas.
We had this little barbecuespot in katie, texas it's called
jd's barbecue and they sold thedino ritz.
It would be first come, firstserve and they would sell out
within two hours.
That's.
Lynn Dimick (26:11):
That's the place on the other side of the airport.
We went to that that night.
Mike Waller (26:14):
No, oh, not that one okay no, every time we tried
to go there, when you werethere, they were already sold
out I just remember the night wewent up for rids.
Lynn Dimick (26:22):
You wanted to be there at about 2 30 in the
afternoon for dinner.
You talked about cooking pork alittle while ago and and one of
the things that people like todo is cook the pork butt or the
pork shoulder, which isbasically the same thing.
The name pork butt does nottalk about where it comes from.
It comes from where it fitwithin the process of processing
(26:42):
pork.
What is it about the pork buttor pork shoulder that you like?
What do you use it for?
Mike Waller (26:47):
So I mainly use it just for pulled pork sandwiches
or pulled pork.
I did pulled pork nachos that acouple of weeks ago.
That ended up just amazing.
But I tend to go for the bostonbutt over shoulder.
I don't want to mess with thebone.
Lynn Dimick (27:05):
All right, shoulder hat the butt doesn't really.
You don't like that bone, see Ithat's.
That's how most people tellthat it's done is if they can
pull that thing out withouttearing the meat apart.
Mike Waller (27:13):
Oh man, my meat probe tells me that it's done
all right, so let's talk aboutthe meat probe.
Lynn Dimick (27:18):
The first time you cooked the shoulder or boston
butt or whatever it was, did yourun into something called the
stall?
Mike Waller (27:24):
explain what it is oh, you're cooking at such a low
temperature that as the meatstarts to heat up internally, it
gets to a point within withinthat meat that it's trying to
break through that, thattemperature range, so it could
start rendering fat.
And sometimes what happens isyou hit that and you don't have
(27:46):
enough heat currently to get itto push past that.
And it's called the stall for areason because it can.
It can stay there for, you know, 45 minutes, or it could stay
there for three and a half hoursall right now, let me.
Lynn Dimick (28:00):
Let me interrupt you right there.
And while people are sayingthree and a half hours and it
doesn't look like it's doinganything different, it's got to
drive you nuts.
How long does it normally taketo cook a pork like that?
Mike Waller (28:12):
so I have it down to a science.
I cook it in about anywherefrom 20 to 22 hours.
I usually will throw it onabout eight o'clock at night and
I'll babysit it through thenight and then I can pull it off
right around four, four, fiveo'clock, depending on.
You know I've had some thatthat cooked a little faster.
(28:35):
Again, it's all about thetemperature, not the time.
Lynn Dimick (28:39):
Now, when it's going through the stall, what do
you do to try and overcome thestall?
Do you just wait it out, or doyou?
Mike Waller (28:46):
wrap.
I found that what I like to dois I just leave it alone.
I have a wireless, you know,meat thermometer that is inside
the meat that I can look at itand I just go out and I check on
my pellets to make sure that Ihave enough fuel going into it.
I do not change it, I do nottake it off, I don't wrap it, I
(29:07):
don't do any of that.
Lynn Dimick (29:08):
So you just touched upon one of the key things
about a smoker, a pellet smoker,is that the temperature is
consistent and as long as you'vegot fuel, it's really easy to
maintain, to maintain thattemperature, whereas you're
cooking with charcoal or stickburner or something else.
You have to monitor that andyou have to add fuel which is
going to raise the temperatureand do goofy things.
Now, during that stall processand when it finishes, what it's
(29:31):
trying to do is break down someof the connective tissue in the
pork and that that connectivetissue becomes almost like a
gelatin and when it starts tomelt down, it's it's magic.
That's the only way to describeit.
It's magic because you get thissweet.
I don't want the slippery superflavor, rich content on the
meat, for lack of a betterdescription, and that's what
(29:54):
you're looking for especially ona pork butt.
Mike Waller (29:57):
I know some people that pull it off at 200, some
people that pull it off at 205,some people that pull it off at
198 and wrap it and throw it ina cooler and let it go through
its process.
I pull it at 230 degrees and Iwill pull it and I will throw it
into foil and I will put it ina cooler for a good hour,
(30:21):
letting it just sweat out allthe juices and then soak all the
juices back up and then I'llshred it.
Lynn Dimick (30:27):
You know you bring up a good point when you talk
about letting it sit there andresting, because what happens,
or what I found, is that if Itake a piece of meat off the
grill and if I cut itimmediately, the first thing
that happens is all this nicepink juice just gushes out and I
end up with dry meat.
By resting it, you allow thatjuice to be recirculated within
the meat to let it adjust.
(30:48):
The meat seems to plump up alittle bit, and the other thing
that happens is that there'ssome carryover cooking that goes
on so that you might pull it at203, but it might go up to 205
on its own.
But you've got it right whereyou want it.
I do know of people that havekept those.
I will take those and I willwrap them in foil, put a towel
around it, put it in an icechest and I've had those sit
(31:08):
there and stay, stay at about200 degrees for a good four
hours and they taste just asgood after that four hours as
they did coming off, if notbetter.
Mike Waller (31:18):
I mean, I used to make it for a job for a bunch of
my employees and I would smokeit all night and throw it in a
cooler.
I'd be able to pull it off.
You know, first thing in themorning, 6 am, I just throw it
in a cooler and then I wouldn'tserve it until 12.
And it would be still justcompletely juicy, flavorful and
(31:39):
still warm.
Lynn Dimick (31:40):
It wasn't hot, but it was warm.
Now, do you worry about themarking of the meat, whether
it's prime or choice or anythingelse Do you consider?
Mike Waller (31:49):
that?
No, I really don't.
I think that it's justmarketing.
Lynn Dimick (31:54):
I have to agree, I think there's a lot of marketing
in it, but I also find that I'mjust going to get something
cheaper.
And one of the purposes ofbarbecue, particularly smoking,
is you're trying to break themeat down.
Now I do need to cook likeWagyu, different than you do
things like tri-tip.
What do you say?
Wagyu?
Okay, you know what, I'll havethe pocketbook for Wagyu.
(32:16):
You okay, you know what?
I have the pocketbook for wagon.
I remember one time I decided Iwanted to send our friend you
know who I'm talking about, Ithink who lives, who used to
live in san antonio, that passedaway last march and um, I
thought, well, I'm gonna dosomething nice for him, because
he's always done some very kindof things for our family.
So I went online to, I want tosay, snake River Farms and I
sent him two Wagyu filet mignonsand these were two four-ounce
(32:44):
medallions and I think the pricewas $150.
Yeah, and they're very, verygood, but there's no meal in the
world worth $300 a pound.
No, not at all.
I do remember seeing a showcalled Texasxas law where they
follow around the rangers onwhatnot the game wardens and
they were investigating a casewhere somebody was shooting
(33:07):
across the property line and theneighbor's herd was behind them
and the the ranger didn't seemto be too excited.
He says, well, if they kill a,they owe you a couple thousand
bucks.
And the guy says, no, these areWagyu steer.
It's going to cost them $25,000if it kills one of those, which
is just insane.
Mike Waller (33:26):
I don't understand what Wagyu is versus a regular.
It just doesn't make sense tome.
Lynn Dimick (33:32):
The Wagyu has got a lot more small marbling
throughout so it's and it's alittle bit different flavor, so
it's almost like butter.
So it melts at a lowertemperature and it's got that
sweetness growing into it thatyou don't normally get from the
rest of the cows.
All right, unusual meats.
Have you ever smoked anythingthat was?
Mike Waller (33:51):
different.
I did an elk roast one time.
I tried to smoke that and it itdid not cook like I thought it
would.
What did you think it would do?
I thought that it would turnout more like a beef roast, Like
if you've ever smoked a beefroast, you know they come out
and you know they're really good.
It's actually a cheap cut ofmeat that you can serve,
(34:14):
basically shaved beef off ofRight.
But I cooked it and I cooked itto the 165 internal temperature
and I pulled it off and it wasit.
It was like beef jerky.
It was horrible because elkdoesn't have fat to it.
Same thing with deer.
Yep, yeah, that was.
The main thing that I didn'trecognize at that time was that
(34:35):
I needed the fat to replenishthe juices within the meat.
Lynn Dimick (34:39):
Yeah, for venison or something.
I don't think I'd take it over130, and even then I'd be really
careful I might just take it to125 or so and then let it slow
cook on its own.
Some game eats are tough.
Mike Waller (34:51):
I tried steak and it still was awful because it
just doesn't have anything.
I tried doing steak wrapped inbacon and bacon burnt and you
know I just I haven't had a lotof luck in the wild game side of
cooking your smoking meat didyou have a?
Lynn Dimick (35:08):
did you have a drip pan underneath it with some
water in it?
Yeah oh, I would have thoughtthat would have helped, because
that would help keep it a littlebit moister.
All right, here's a questionfor you.
Have you ever tried smokingcheeses?
Mike Waller (35:18):
it's on my list to do.
I've had smoked cheese, butright now it's.
I probably need to do it heresoon if I'm going to do it,
because it's still cold out here, but I just.
Lynn Dimick (35:31):
It makes me nervous , to be honest I tried it here
once and the problem is is thatout in the sun, my barbecue,
just from the metal cover andthe sun will top 100 degrees,
and for smoked cheese you wantto try and keep it below 80
degrees or 70, so you can put itinto an ice bath.
Mike Waller (35:50):
I've heard about the ice bath.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Just what I found is I can putif I want something with a
smoked cheese flavor, I'll justtake that cheese and put it in a
dish and smoke it and have itmelt.
Lynn Dimick (36:11):
The other thing that you will absolutely hate is
if you smoke cheese and you tryand eat it that day.
Mike Waller (36:14):
you're going to eat it it tastes like you're
licking a charcoal briquette.
You can't.
You definitely cannot withcheese.
I had co-worker that got abrand new trigger and wanted to
do it.
He did a really good job, buthe brought it in the next day
and it was pungent.
It was horrible.
But then he brought in the samesome from the same batch, like
two weeks later and it wasamazing.
(36:34):
Now, have you tried?
Lynn Dimick (36:36):
No, we don't do seafood in this house, that's
not seafood, that's fresh water,we don't do fish, salmon,
smoked salmon with a maple syrupand orange marinade is amazing.
Now, have you tried smokingbacon?
Yeah, okay, I've done that acouple of times and you get a
pork belly from the store whichis inexpensive Okay, I've done
(36:59):
that a couple of times and youget a pork belly from the store
which is inexpensive.
You have to trim off that realthick fat cap you know that
gooey like skin fat, yeah.
And then you marinate it for Iwant to say three or four days
with some curing salt, and thenyou put it on and smoke it and
that is some of the best baconyou'll ever have, because you
can control the flavor a littlebit more.
Mine tends to have less of asalt flavor than it does off the
(37:21):
shelf, so it's a little bitmilder that way.
And then you've got the themaple syrup running through it,
so it's pretty good and there'sa lot of people that'll do, like
pepper and some of the otherflavors, yeah what's your
favorite meat to barbecue orsmoke?
Mike Waller (37:34):
my favorite thing to cook is probably a whole
chicken.
It just, it turns out amazing.
You just want to say that wordspatchcock.
I cut the backbone out of itand then lay it face down and I
cook it about 275 and just letit go low and slow and it comes
out.
It's just, it's to die for.
Lynn Dimick (37:57):
I've got a small turkey in the freezer that we
bought last Thanksgiving.
I think it's about a 12 pounder.
That's sometime maybe forEaster.
I'm going to spatchcock it andsmoke it.
For those of you who arecurious, just look up
spatchcocking.
It's not at all what it soundslike.
You literally are removing thebackbone and breaking the bird
in half.
That's probably the best way todescribe it.
(38:17):
The advantage you have there isthat you are cooking the meat
and it comes out more evenlybecause you've got the breast,
which has a differenttemperature than the thighs.
Thighs and the legs have to goa little bit hotter.
Mike Waller (38:30):
And you don't have that dreaded, you know cavity in
the middle that trap seat andthen doesn't allow parts of it
to cook and parts of it to cookseat and then doesn't allow
parts of it to cook and parts ofit to cook.
You know, I I've found on, atleast on my whole chickens I
actually try to remove the ribs,oh really, yeah, I found that
it actually cooks a lot betterand that my breasts become like
(38:52):
come out a lot juicier I have totry that now.
Lynn Dimick (38:55):
the one thing I hate more than almost more than
anything else, is this idea ofthese beer can chickens.
Are you familiar with that?
Mike Waller (39:04):
Well, all right, tell me about it, and I'll tell
you why.
I think it's dumb, it'sfreaking amazing.
It's so good.
Lynn Dimick (39:10):
All right, so tell everybody what it is, and why
you like it.
Mike Waller (39:14):
It's called canned chicken, but I haven't had it
without beer.
You take your chicken and youput it on this tube.
Basically, that tube is filledwith a bunch of liquid.
What happens is, as it cooks,all of that liquid evaporates
(39:36):
and it goes through the meat.
The meat comes out extremelyjuicy, extremely flavorful,
whatever that you put in therefor the liquid, it just it
really comes through on the meat.
Lynn Dimick (39:45):
Okay, here's.
Here's.
The thing I don't like aboutthat is is what temperature does
it boil?
212 degrees.
Mike Waller (39:53):
Yeah, but you generally cook those at like 350
.
All right?
Lynn Dimick (39:57):
See, I've never heard of that.
I've always heard of it doinglow and slow.
And if you do it low and slow,you never get it to boil and
steam the meat.
Mike Waller (40:03):
No, every time I've had it it's cooked at like 300
or 350.
So a higher temperature rank.
Lynn Dimick (40:09):
Do you recommend that over a spatchcock bird or
just different?
It's just different.
Mike Waller (40:14):
I like the spatchcock bird because I can
really get in there and put myrub all over the chicken,
basically.
Lynn Dimick (40:23):
I know your family loves that because for the
Thanksgiving and other poultryyou guys like to put the rub and
the stuffing underneath theskin and all kinds of stuff.
I think you buy yourThanksgiving stuffing by the
pound.
So where the rest of us arelooking for these small little
four-ounce cans, you guys aresaying let's go to Costco and
let's double up.
Mike Waller (40:41):
I give that.
I give that to my wife, youknow she she found a really good
recipe for a rub for a turkeyand I came into it into the
marriage hating turkey, and shefound it and now I love turkey
Now now, one of the things aboutturkey and it's the same thing
with poultry is the secret tomaking it juicy is to leave the
(41:03):
skin on, because the skin hasgot so much fat in it.
Lynn Dimick (41:06):
when it heats up, it melts the fat into the meat.
Mike Waller (41:10):
But there's a difference there, right?
Like just taking a turkey outof the wrapping and washing it
and stuffing it and putting, youknow, butter on the skin.
That doesn't do it.
You have to pull that skin awayfrom the meat, you have to
separate it in order to get thatthose juices to stay trapped in
there.
Lynn Dimick (41:30):
In fact in competition cooking.
When they're doing the barbecuethey'll do.
They'll do thighs because thedark meat's got a lot of flavor
and they literally will take theskin off of the thigh.
They will scrape all the fatoff because they don't want to
try and deal with theinconsistencies there and put
the skin back on, and sometimesthey'll use a toothpick to
anchor it.
(41:50):
And it does make for some skinthat you can bite through and
the meat's good.
But again, they're cooking forone bite, not for the meal.
All right, on our way out.
Real quick question If youcould barbecue for anyone in
history, who would it be andwhat would you make?
And I think I know the answerto this.
But go ahead, Cook for my dad.
I knew it, I knew it.
Mike Waller (42:11):
I got you.
What would you cook him?
Probably make him a reversesear tri-tip.
Lynn Dimick (42:20):
There's something about a tri-tip that is just
beyond amazing.
It's easy to do, it's quick,the results are always wonderful
and if you ever get in asituation the very rare
situation where you got leftover, get some sourdough bread, put
some mayonnaise on one slice,chop the meat up small, put a
little bit of horseradish on theother side and it's heaven.
Mike Waller (42:37):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Lynn Dimick (42:39):
No, absolutely not, and you can see why we get
along so well with the smoking.
All right, what's your favoriteside dish to pair with barbecue
?
And do not tell me mac andcheese with panko on it.
Mike Waller (42:50):
No, you can't put panko on mac and cheese.
It dries it out.
But in our family lately I'vebeen smoking veggies.
I take broccoli, bell peppers,asparagus, zucchini and I will
douse it in some olive oil andthen lightly season it.
There's a Cosmos seasoning,it's like garlic butter
(43:19):
seasoning and I'll put that onthe veggies and I will smoke the
crap out of those things andthey get gobbled in my house.
Lynn Dimick (43:27):
See, the thing I don't like about that is the
same thing I don't like aboutthe cheese, and that's that.
The initial bite is just allsmoke.
I've tried to make salsa and Ihave never liked the flavor of
it.
Mike Waller (43:39):
My veggies don't come out with that strong smoke
flavor.
They they come out just likethey're almost like perfectly
cooked.
They're still there's a littlebit of char on them, but they're
still soft and they just havereally good flavor to them.
Another perfect side dish is dobaked potatoes on the smoker.
Lynn Dimick (44:01):
I've done that before and I'd love them better
that way.
Don't wrap them.
Don't bother to wrap them.
You want them dry.
Mike Waller (44:08):
You don't wrap them .
What you do is you poke themwhole, brush them with olive oil
, and then you put salt andpepper over the top of them, and
then you just let them smoke,and then you pull them off, you
let them rest and they'rethey're amazing there's.
Lynn Dimick (44:24):
Yeah, everyone here except me likes to wrap them in
foil and to me all that does issteam them and you don't really
get the.
Mike Waller (44:30):
The potato cells don't really burst and give out
their flavor I mean I I don'tlie, I'm not going to lie I do
like a wrapped baked potato inthe oven.
I don't like the super dry skin.
But on the smoker you can'twrap it because you have to poke
a bunch of holes in it so youget that smoke flavor to come
(44:50):
through.
Lynn Dimick (44:51):
And if you don't wrap it, the potato will explode
.
It does that in the ovenbecause there's nowhere for that
expanding steam to get out.
It becomes like popcorn.
All right, is there one lasthint, trick or piece of barbecue
wisdom that you want to sharewith our?
Mike Waller (45:06):
listener, don't be afraid to try it.
Just go for it.
Whatever you do, you're gonnamess something up, but you're
gonna end up perfecting it tothe way that you want it, and
it's really worth the journey.
Lynn Dimick (45:19):
Thank you for your wisdom.
I found that to be absolutelytrue, and it's something that,
no matter when you start, youmay never get to the point where
you think it's perfect.
There's always something thatcan be better, but everybody's
telling you how great it is.
Mike Waller (45:32):
Yeah, this guy that does this podcast here got a
smoker because someone else hada smoker.
Lynn Dimick (45:39):
Yep podcast here got a smoker because someone
else had a smoker.
Yep, you had one.
First I had the barbecues and Iwas doing the hot and fast and
I thought, well, I'll try thislow and slow and see what
happens, and I'm sure glad I did.
All right, mike, I'll let youget back at it and we'll talk to
you again soon, and I expect tohave some barbecue next time I
come up there.
One thing you may have foundout about grillers and smokemas
(46:00):
masters is there's a little bitof a competition going on.
It's unwritten, it's silent,it's friendly, but everybody
thinks that they have the bestrecipe, the best technique, the
best secrets and the bestmethods.
And so, to settle some of thesearguments, I will often ask the
grandkids who makes the bestmeat or barbecue.
Let me share with you some ofthe feedback that I received
from some of my grandchildren.
We'll start off with Blake, andI asked him what do you like
(46:23):
about my barbecue?
Tell me about it, do you likeit?
Mike Waller (46:27):
What about it?
Lynn Dimick (46:28):
Do you like it?
Mike Waller (46:30):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (46:31):
Is it the best you've ever had?
Mike Waller (46:32):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (46:33):
Okay, what do you like about it?
Mike Waller (46:36):
Everything.
Lynn Dimick (46:39):
Okay, what's your favorite?
Kind Steak?
All right.
How about the meat your dadcooks?
10 out of 10.
Mike Waller (46:49):
It's good as yours.
Lynn Dimick (46:50):
Ooh, bad question.
His dad has home fieldadvantage.
Okay, that's fair.
All right, I just wanted to getsome.
What?
Mike Waller (46:59):
Especially his burgers.
Lynn Dimick (47:01):
Oh, he makes good burgers.
Next up, we had Luke.
Luke is one of Mike's sons, soI knew these answers would be a
little interesting.
And again, mike has home fieldadvantage, which becomes obvious
with how long it takes Luke toanswer the first question.
Hey Luke, what are you doingbud?
Mike Waller (47:20):
Yelling at my little brother to stop singing.
Lynn Dimick (47:25):
All right.
So who makes a better barbecue,your dad or me?
Mike Waller (47:35):
I don't know, I just found.
Lynn Dimick (47:37):
On what.
Mike Waller (47:39):
On what you're making.
Lynn Dimick (47:40):
Alright, who makes a better, who makes better
chicken?
I knew what the answer wasgoing to be and I figured I'd
give Mike an easy one, becausemy chicken game Needs to step a
couple of steps.
Mike Waller (47:54):
Um, I'd say my dad.
Lynn Dimick (47:56):
Okay, who makes better steak?
Mike Waller (48:00):
Um, um, I'd say my dad.
Okay, who makes better steak?
Um, there's A1 sauce than you.
Lynn Dimick (48:06):
Okay, how about hamburgers?
Mike Waller (48:09):
Um my dad.
Lynn Dimick (48:11):
Okay, and what is it you like about your dad's
cooking?
Mike Waller (48:16):
He seasons it.
Lynn Dimick (48:18):
What kind of seasoning do you like?
And there you have it.
Just as Mike was emphasizingthe importance of a good rub,
his son was noticing that itdoes change and improve the
flavor.
All right, right now I've gotCaleb Smith here with me and
we're going to ask him Caleb,what's your favorite dinner?
Mike Waller (48:39):
Burgers.
Lynn Dimick (48:40):
You like burgers.
What burgers do you like?
Mike Waller (48:43):
The cheese and meat ones.
Lynn Dimick (48:45):
Your dad's or mine?
Mike Waller (48:48):
Both.
Lynn Dimick (48:48):
Okay, and what's your favorite Sunday dinner?
Mike Waller (48:53):
I don't know.
Lynn Dimick (48:54):
Oh, I thought it was steak and everything else.
Mike Waller (48:57):
Yeah, that's it.
Lynn Dimick (48:58):
Yeah, you like my steak.
Mike Waller (49:00):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (49:00):
Okay, thank you On more than one occasion.
After Sunday dinner, whichusually consists of tri-tip and
vegetables and some homemaderolls, we will have dessert.
After dessert, the grandkidswill usually ask for more meat
because they enjoy it and ittastes so good.
Thanks everyone, we'll talk atyou soon.
(49:22):
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of Grandpa Is Him.
We hope you enjoyed ourdiscussion and stories and maybe
even found some inspiration foryour own family adventures.
(49:44):
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Welcome to Grandpa Is Him.
Several years ago we decided tospend Thanksgiving with my
parents, so we picked up some ofthe grandkids and we drove down
to their place in central Utah.
It was a beautiful, clear fallday in central Utah.
It was a beautiful, clear fallday.
We were enjoying the changingleaves, the scenery, even the
(00:32):
cool air, and we were enjoyingthe smell of the burning leaves
as we drove through some ofthese small towns.
We drove through one small townwhere one of the homeowners was
burning his leaves and mygrandson in the back said Mmm,
this smells good.
It smells like Sunday dinner atgrandpa's house.
He learned to equate that smokysmell with good tasting meat
and Sunday dinner.
So I want to share with yousome tips and experiences on
(00:56):
smoking meats.
This week we're going to betalking about smoking, grilling
and barbecuing and what some ofthe differences are.
One of the things that happenswhen we cook food is something
called the Maillard effect orthe Maillard reaction, and what
this is.
It's a chemical reaction thatoccurs when proteins and sugars
(01:16):
are heated.
The result is brownness and thedevelopment of complex flavors
and aromas.
This is what makes food tastegood.
This happens on every kind offood that has sugars or proteins
, for example, bread.
The crust is bread and whathappens is that when these
things are heated, it creates adifferent flavor that is very
(01:38):
tasty.
So actually, if you want goodbread, eat the crust.
The same thing goes with meat.
If you want good tasting meat,eat the outside.
That's where the real flavorscome from, but that's just the
precursor to what we're going totalk about today.
I am happy to introduce to youMichael Waller, my son-in-law,
(01:59):
who is an avid smoker.
He knows what he's talkingabout, and we're going to talk
about smoking and grilling today.
I hope you enjoy.
And I's talking about, andwe're going to talk about
smoking and grilling today.
I hope you enjoy, and I knowthat by the time we're done, my
mouth is going to be watering.
All right, mike, thanks forjoining us.
First of all, let's start offby talking about what got you
interested in barbecuing.
Mike Waller (02:18):
Well, you're my father-in-law, so you got a
feeling to be honest For Sundaydinners and having steaks and
everything else like that.
I just decided that I felt likeI could increase the taste
profile from just the meat, toadd a seasoning and doing things
a little bit differently.
Lynn Dimick (02:37):
Well, that's not a bad way to start it.
I'm dealing with the handicap,or the challenge of having some
people that don't like the extraflavor and they think that the
meat's just fine the way it is.
Yeah, all right now, briefly,what in your mind is the
difference between grilling andbarbecuing and smoking?
Mike Waller (02:55):
so I kind of feel like grilling and barbecuing is
the same, just grilling is withpropane, barbecue probably it's
going to be more of the you know, the charcoal briquette.
And then smoking is anything todo with wood.
Okay, what is your preference?
I prefer smoking.
I tend to team up my smokerwith my grill.
(03:15):
I'll do something low and slowand then I'll finish it off on
the grill as a reverse sear.
Lynn Dimick (03:20):
When it comes to the steaks or chicken, Are there
times when it works better togo hot and fast if you will like
a grill or a barbecue versussmoking.
What kind of meats work betterwith the hot and fast?
Mike Waller (03:32):
Hot and fast.
I prefer burgers that way,maybe chicken breasts over
chicken thighs, sometimes athinner steak, something that
doesn't have as as much meat toit like a london broil.
It's really a top.
Sirloin is really good on agrill.
But when you get to the the lowand slow I've found you know
(03:56):
anything to do with pork, thatlow and slow is a way to go.
Or a big cut of meat, say atri-tip or a brisket.
Those are the main ones that Itend to go with for low and slow
, but I do use my poker a lotfor chicken thighs.
I'll set it about 350 and letit cook with the smoke what's
(04:19):
the advantage of low and slowversus hot and fast?
Lynn Dimick (04:21):
I remember one time I went to the grocery store and
I picked up a nice tri-tip andthe guy behind the counter
brought it out and said here yougo.
He says that'll be great lowand slow.
And I said, uh-uh, this is hotand fast and it turned out
really good.
But I found that at one pointlow and slow does come out
better.
What's the difference in howthe meat cooks?
Mike Waller (04:40):
I feel like low and slow.
It allows the juices, theinternal juices of the meat, to
soak in Hot and fast.
It's just making it brown.
Lynn Dimick (04:51):
You know you're right, because what we do is we
try and smoke the meat atsomewhere between 225 and 250,
maybe 275.
Now, for those of you sciencemajors or non-science majors out
there, water boils at 212degrees and so what we're doing
is we're heating the meat tojust above boiling so that the
water is not leaving the meat asfast, so it tends to be more
(05:14):
tender and a little bit slowerand a little bit more flavorful,
because we're not cooking orboiling out all the flavor.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe differences of the grilling
and the barbecuing, and what doyou think are some of the
essential tools that are neededfor barbecuing?
Let's say, well, we've got acouple of friends in common that
are in their 18s to 20 year old.
(05:34):
They're going to be moving outsometime in the future.
What would you recommend thatthey start out their barbecuing
adventures?
With what equipment?
So you're saying barbecuing?
Well, okay, let's go withsmoking.
Mike Waller (05:44):
Whatever you think.
You know, I don't suggest thatsomeone starts out with a smoker
.
I feel like the best thing tostart out with is just a propane
grill For someone you knowyounger age moving out on their
own.
You can get one of those littletabletop barbecues.
You know grills propane grillsthat run off of the little
Coleman propane tank.
(06:06):
I think that that's the bestway to start.
Then from there you probablyadvance to a charcoal grill, one
of those little black dome oneslike the little shuttles yeah,
the little kettles and then fromthere you you start to notice
the difference in taste and thenyou want to explore some things
(06:27):
.
Or, if you live in Texas Ilived there for a while you
don't do anything without asmoker.
I mean, you get some great theycall it barbecue there, but you
get some great smoked meatsthat just intrigue you and you
want to just do it better.
Lynn Dimick (06:51):
Now the only.
I don't want to argue it, but Ithink I think we need to let
them know that if they get asmall charcoal, one like a
hibachi, where it's a rectangle,they can put the coals on one
side for the hot side and thenstill leave the other side free
for the cooler zone.
What do you?
Mike Waller (07:03):
think I've seen that done.
I've never had great successbecause of the fact that the
circulation of that heat doesn'thappen throughout the entire
grill.
On those, if you do one sidehot and one side on cold, with
no coals or anything there, youtend to get a sear on just half
(07:23):
of that meat and you're alwayshaving to constantly move it and
it fluctuates on the.
You know the doneness.
Lynn Dimick (07:30):
What other tools do you think they need, besides
just a grill of some sort?
Mike Waller (07:33):
I sound that a good you know.
Good meat thermometer is key.
Once I learned to not grill orsmoke by look and started
probing the meat, trying tocheck temperature across
multiple zones of the meat,that's when I started realizing
that I was making much betterfood.
Lynn Dimick (07:54):
You know that is such a critical point that I
don't think people understandwhen they start out is that
you're not cooking for theoutside color.
You're cooking for the insidetemperature.
Why the temperature?
Because it doesn't matter whatcolor it is.
It has to be up to a certainpoint for it to be safe and for
it to be done.
Do different meats cook or dothey require to get to a
different temperature?
Mike Waller (08:14):
Well, I mean, yeah, so beef has the tendency that
you could cook it at a raretemperature.
Cook it at a rare temperature,you know, 115 to 130, and it's
perfectly safe to eat whenchicken poultry you want to cook
(08:36):
that at least to 165.
I don't even when I'm smokingchicken on the smoker or
grilling it, I don't pull it offuntil it's at least 175, 180,
just to get that extra littlebit of heat into the meat and
have whatever fats in therestart to render.
Lynn Dimick (08:48):
and this way, it's so critical to be careful with
your cooking temperature becauseit may burn before you can get
up to that internal temperature.
The outside skin can becompletely blackened and you're
still dealing with somethingthat's pink and runny yeah, I
mean we, we've had that problembefore, right, like we've had
some.
Mike Waller (09:07):
We've had some chicken early on that may have
been a little bit frozen in themiddle and we're trying to cook
it on the grill and put stuff onit.
Lynn Dimick (09:15):
Well, and you and you bring up an interesting
point.
Because chicken is cooked onceit is 165 to 170 internal, but
because they're selling smallerand younger chickens and they're
growing faster, they may be 165degrees, but still peak in the
middle even though it's 165.
Mike Waller (09:36):
That's a great topic right there that I want to
touch on the mass producedchicken in the world right now.
If you know what goes intogetting those chickens to size,
you know what goes into togetting those chickens to size
that you probably wouldn't wantto ingest.
That I've been kind of leaningtoward trying to find a more
organic approach.
Lynn Dimick (09:54):
one of the other concerns I have is that anytime
you buy any meat from the, fromthe grocery store, particularly
poultry, it's going to be soinjected with crap, I mean 30%
water and everything else andall these other things that may
make it look good, but it kindof fights the process of smoking
(10:15):
.
Mike Waller (10:15):
It really does, because you know you get some of
that.
You know the chicken breast ora whole chicken from the grocery
store.
It has so much water in it thatas you're smoking it you're
fighting the internaltemperatures the whole time.
And then once it actually getsto temp you know 165, 175, it's
(10:36):
already dried out in the middleThen it becomes, you know, not
as enjoyable.
Lynn Dimick (10:40):
And nothing like eating charcoal that tastes
worse than what you startedcooking with.
Now, the other problem with thefirst time griller is keeping
the temperature under control,because I don't know about you,
but I have never yet seen athermometer on the outside of a
barbecue or a grill that I wouldtrust.
Yeah, so how do you?
How do you control thetemperature?
How do you know what's right?
Mike Waller (11:01):
or do you bother with it, or you know, on a on a
smoker, it's one thing.
Right, I have a one of thehigher end smokers in a rec tech
and it has constant monitoringmonitoring through a wi-fi
signal to my phone.
But when I first got it Ididn't trust it, so I I went in
(11:21):
there and I broke it and I and Iactually found the hot spot in
my smoker first off right,there's always going to be a hot
spot in it, and so I found thathot spot by trying to not put
anything on there unless Iwanted to cook faster.
Lynn Dimick (11:38):
You know you bring up a good point and that is the
idea of hot spots.
Even a smoker has hot spotsbecause normally what they do is
they've got the pellets on oneside, they seed them through
into a hot burning area becauseyou've got to burn the fuel and
anything over that pot, whereit's burning the pellets or
whatever it is, is going to behotter.
So you do have hot and coldspots on a grill, no matter what
(12:00):
kind it is.
Yeah, I mean on your Camp Chefyou probably have that, that hot
spot over the pot.
I do a little bit.
It seems to be more towards theback left just a little bit not
quite centered.
Mike Waller (12:13):
Okay, mine, mine's on the front right corner of my
grill gets the hottest, but minealso has a an airflow dam
through it that pushes the heatall the way through and that's
first major turn in it.
Lynn Dimick (12:25):
We've talked a little bit about the meat.
Now let's start talking aboutgetting the right flavoring.
Is there a particular fuel orflavor of fuel that you prefer,
and how does that affect thetaste of the?
Mike Waller (12:36):
meat.
So it depends on what you'remaking.
So if I'm making pork I tend togo with something that has like
a fruit wood, so apple orcherry, something like that.
I've had some success withadding.
There's charcoal pellets outthere, adding a little bit of
charcoal pellets and apple woodwhile smoking a pork butt.
(12:56):
It adds an extra layer offlavor.
But for steak, for beef or forchicken, I really don't see a
huge difference in the type ofpellet that I use.
But I don't know, I guess Idon't pay enough attention to
that.
My rubs and seasoning that Iuse, you know, overpowers that
(13:17):
Okay.
Lynn Dimick (13:18):
You talked about rubs, and that's our next topic
of conversation here.
Do you have a preferred recipefor a rub that you like?
Mike Waller (13:25):
so my my favorite rub.
I don't make any of my rubshomemade, I buy produced ones.
Um, my favorite family rub thatwe have here is called casey's
butt rub and I put that stuff oneverything.
It's made for pork butt but weput it on chicken, we put it on
beef.
Everything that we put that onon everything.
It's made for pork butt butwe've put it on chicken, we've
(13:45):
put it on beef, everything thatwe put that on it comes out
absolutely amazing.
My kids ask me all the time tomake butt chicken, chicken
breast on my grill coated withsome of the Casey's butt rub.
Lynn Dimick (14:01):
When you put a rub on what are the ingredients you
look for in particular, Do youjust go for that one can.
Mike Waller (14:06):
No, I have quite a few different spices that I run.
Lynn Dimick (14:11):
The main thing that I'm looking for is no MSG,
don't go there with me becausethat stuff is nasty, and there's
people that deny that it doesanything and they're wrong.
Mike Waller (14:21):
I get horrible migraines from it.
I just thing in the wrong.
I get horrible migraines fromit.
Lynn Dimick (14:28):
I just I cannot have it in anything that I have.
Okay, you talked about spicesand herbs a little bit there.
Normally, for poultry, you'regoing to want to look for
something that's got parsley,sage, thyme, something that's a
little bit more forward withthat.
For beef, you're going to belooking at something more along
the salt and pepper line.
For the pork, you tend to lookfor the fruit type flavors, not
just in the wood but in the rubs.
Now, salt when you're cookingwith salt, it does two different
(14:51):
things.
Number one is when you pre-saltmeat, it opens up the pores and
draws the water out.
The reason for drawing thewater to the surface is that it
moves it around a little bitbetter.
It makes the meat more tender.
And then there's also theconcept of using salt as a final
flavor, and you don'tnecessarily taste as much salt
(15:13):
if it's pre-salted than if youput it on afterwards.
So I just want to get that outof the way.
Do you do a lot of pre-saltingbefore you cook?
I find that really unusual,even me.
Mike Waller (15:24):
Very, yeah, that's where we vary.
I do not, I do not free saltanything.
What I do is I take that rubthat I'm going to be using, um,
and, to be honest, a lot oftimes when I'm smoking something
, I'm using a couple differentrubs that I have and they vary
depending on, you know, the sageand herb stuff.
(15:46):
I prefer more like a cayenne,chili pepper, salt and pepper
kind of mix, almost a Texas typerub, yeah, with a little bit of
sweet, right, so some sugar.
But what I'll do is I'll put alight layer of that on and I'll
pat it into the meat and I'lllet it sit up for about 20
minutes and then I'll that onand I'll pat it into the meat
(16:06):
and I'll let it sit up for about20 minutes and then I'll go in
and I'll coat it heavy and then,if I have the time, then I'll
let that sit, hopefullyovernight, and then put it on
the smoker.
That's the best that I've found.
Lynn Dimick (16:18):
What's the number one ingredient in most rubs
Sugar, and then salt or salt.
So, in a way, you are going toend up pre-salting, and that's
what I wanted to bring on.
Next is the problem that peoplelike me are going to have is,
if you pre-salt the meat and youget a nice coating of salt on
it and then you throw a rub onit which is mostly salt, you've
over-salted the meat, yep.
(16:40):
So I think that your way mightbe a better way to go.
I have to do some moreexperimenting with that.
Mike Waller (16:45):
There is a difference, right.
Like I've had your steaks whereyou've pre-salted your steaks
tend to come out a littlejuicier than mine.
Like you can cook a perfectmedium rare steak on your grill
or on your stoker and it's sojuicy and so delicious where
when I cook mine I'm hard to getit to that medium rare.
(17:08):
I cook it to more of a mediumand that's where I can get the
juiciness.
So I'm wondering if salt hasanything to do with locking in
that those juices.
Lynn Dimick (17:18):
It might, but I find that I think the difference
is is that I don't I don't doas good of a hard sear on the at
the end as you do, because I'mI'm afraid that if I'm going to
do a good hard sear and I use ablow torch for my heart for my
final sear, I literally have acooking torch and I'll just run
it right over the meat until itblackens up the outside.
The problem is is that ifthere's any rub left, it burns
(17:40):
the rub.
Yeah, so I lose a lot of theflavor from the rub.
If I do it that way, I'm notgoing to lie.
Mike Waller (17:47):
One of the best steaks I've ever had you made.
You've got it down to science.
I think that I just have more.
I have more of the Texas style.
How would you?
Lynn Dimick (17:57):
describe the Texas style.
Mike Waller (17:59):
Low slow salt pepper and over-seasoned.
Lynn Dimick (18:03):
They love to use their oak with the wood it's.
The other thing that'sinteresting too about cooking is
that a lot of people will uselike charcoal to start it and
get the base fire going.
So they set the temperaturethat way and then they'll put
two or three pieces of wood onthere, whether they're oak or
cherry or something else, to getthe smoke you know, that's
something that I do want to try.
Mike Waller (18:24):
Like, I want to get one of those little kettle
grills and get that.
You know that nice 225 from thecharcoal and just throw a
couple chips on there.
See what that turns out like.
Okay, I do put the charcoalpellet in sometimes when I'm
cooking stuff and I just don'tfeel like I get all that
(18:45):
charcoal flavor, which I love.
Lynn Dimick (18:47):
Yeah, I love that too.
It takes me back to mychildhood.
That's the problem they havewith the barbecue competitions
is that what they're cooking foris for a one-bite judgment.
A judge takes one bite and it'snot the kind of thing that they
serve at their neighborhoodbarbecue.
They don't serve it to theirfamily that way.
It's a very different thing.
So I don't like the barbecuecompetitions because people
(19:08):
think that that's the bestbarbecue, but it's not.
It's the best single bite.
Mike Waller (19:13):
My ward has an annual barbecue competition and
I've had some people over andmade them the smoked tri-tip
with the reverse sear and theylove it.
One of the guys his name isGreg.
He's like my dad.
I've adopted him as a family.
He actually took my method ofthe slow and slow and then
(19:37):
reverse sear and he perfected itand turned it in and he he won
unanimously with it that thatwas my method.
Lynn Dimick (19:46):
I didn't have time well, and that's the beauty of
this is that everybody can shareand everybody can do their own
thing.
Now what's the best way toapply the rub?
You already talked aboutputting it on for 20 minutes and
then trying to do it overnight.
How thick do you put it on?
Because I see some of theserecipes where they say use a
quarter of a cup.
Well, crap, if I put a quartercup on it, it's going to have a
(20:06):
quarter inch all the way aroundit of nothing but spices.
Mike Waller (20:09):
So I think again, that's where we vary, right?
Like you're following a recipe,I'm following touch and feel.
If I can feel that meat and Ican feel that it has a good
amount of seasoning on it, Ijust leave it.
Lynn Dimick (20:22):
What does that feel like?
Is it?
Is it, is it muddy, or is itdry like sand?
Mike Waller (20:26):
it's almost like I tend to go with, like a 180 grit
sandpaper feel okay, right, ithas some texture to it.
You know that there's somethingthere, but it's not super rough
, super coarse.
But on a it's a different,different, it's a different
beast.
Lynn Dimick (20:41):
There I go real heavy on a brisket because it
sweats it all out okay, I'veonly done the one brisket and it
turned out great, but you do agood job on your briskets.
In fact, there's more than onetime in the last month that I've
wanted a bucky's brisketsandwich.
What's that?
You and me bowl.
We had a girl that moved heremoved from california to texas
about a month ago, and we toldher listen, no matter what you
(21:04):
do, I don't care if you die onthe road.
Go to a bucky's first and get a, get a brisket sandwich.
And she says what's bucky's?
I said I can't even describe it, but just get one.
And she got one.
She texted back says oh my gosh, now I know why?
Mike Waller (21:20):
yeah, I mean that.
That brings us to another topichomemade versus store-bought
seasoning.
Lynn Dimick (21:25):
Right, I tend to buy most of my seasonings every
time I go to bucky's becausethey have such well and you've
got a good store just up thestreet from you, but it seems
like their hours are so bad Ithink they close at five most
times, so I I can never make itthere.
Mike Waller (21:40):
Yeah, the thing that I like about Barbecue Pit
Stop here in Lehigh Utah theylet you taste everything, so you
can taste all of the seasoningsand what you want.
So, depending on what I'mmaking, I'll go in there and
I'll taste 20 differentseasonings to find out what I
want.
Lynn Dimick (21:58):
This may be where we start the world on fire.
Let's talk about pork ribsRight now.
There's two major thoughtprocesses here.
One is that you cook thempartway and then you wrap them
with foil and finish braisingthem, and then there's heathens
like you that say no foil.
Mike Waller (22:20):
Explain why I do it both ways.
I mean, I've tried both ways.
Right now I am on the.
I'm not wrapping it in foil andI will wrap it in butcher paper
.
I don't like the foil because Ifeel like all of the juices and
(22:42):
water that's coming out of ittakes away the bark of the meat.
It absolutely does, becauseyou're sopping it up.
Yeah, so me personally, if Icould get it down to a scion, I
would probably just cook itstraight straight through, Okay.
Lynn Dimick (22:59):
How long does it normally?
Mike Waller (23:00):
take to do a rack If I don't take it off and wrap
it about four hours.
Okay.
Lynn Dimick (23:04):
The common method that I see these days is called
3-2-1.
You cook it for three hours at225, and you baste it about
every half hour with apple sauceor something I'm sorry, apple
juice Then you wrap it for twohours and then you finish it off
for an hour.
Now, during the time it'swrapped, you would normally well
.
What I do is I put themargarine on top of the ribs
(23:26):
inside the foil to add some ofthe fat back in, and then I'll
put a little bit of brown sugarand maybe a little bit of honey,
because that gives it just thatlittle bit sweeter flavor.
But, as you said, it does kindof take the bark away but it
makes for a sweeter rib.
And then for the last hour youunwrap them and let it go with
(23:46):
some barbecue sauce and yousmoke that until it's gooey.
Yeah, I find that the threehours before the wrap makes it
cook too fast.
Mike Waller (23:55):
Yeah, when I do that method I do a 2-2-1 method.
So two hours, you know,unwrapped, and then I'll wrap it
.
I do not baste it though at all.
When I start my rack, I willput little chunks, you know
(24:15):
little flats of butter on top ofit and I just let it go for the
two hours.
I don't touch it, I don't openthe lid, I don't do anything, I
just let it cook.
Then I'll pull it off, I'll putit in into foil or butcher
paper and I'll pour just alittle bit of juice in there.
You know some apple juice witha little bit of apple cider
(24:37):
vinegar, and that's it.
I'll add.
Sometimes I add a little bit ofseasoning into the bottom, but
I don't do the sugar do you, Ithink.
Lynn Dimick (24:45):
I think your ribs are more traditional in mind in
that you leave it, so there's alittle bit of a bite.
You got to bite and pull alittle bit more to get the meat
off the bone.
In our household here theyprefer to have the meat falling
off the bone, so that's why itmight go a little bit longer.
I think that's the bigdifference.
Yeah, the other thing is isthat there's three different
kinds of pork ribs.
(25:05):
There's the St Louis, the fullrack and then the baby back, and
they cook at different times,different speeds, because
they're different.
They're not necessarilydifferent cuts of meat, but
they're trimmed differently.
Do you have a preference forthat?
Which ones?
Mike Waller (25:20):
um, I I strictly do baby back ribs.
I don't, I don't do the stlouis or the the full racks of
ribs.
Uh, one of the things that I dowant to try is I want to do
some dino beef ribs at somepoint alan king does those, he
does those and, um, I was, theywere good, but they were, I
(25:43):
don't know.
Lynn Dimick (25:43):
In my mind they were overdone a little bit
because there was no.
There was no pink left in themat all, and so it's kind of like
eating, it's so like a hairybrisket.
This would have felt like afurry.
Mike Waller (25:55):
I mean, it's a science, right.
So we had in texas.
We had this little barbecuespot in katie, texas it's called
jd's barbecue and they sold thedino ritz.
It would be first come, firstserve and they would sell out
within two hours.
That's.
Lynn Dimick (26:11):
That's the place on the other side of the airport.
We went to that that night.
Mike Waller (26:14):
No, oh, not that one okay no, every time we tried
to go there, when you werethere, they were already sold
out I just remember the night wewent up for rids.
Lynn Dimick (26:22):
You wanted to be there at about 2 30 in the
afternoon for dinner.
You talked about cooking pork alittle while ago and and one of
the things that people like todo is cook the pork butt or the
pork shoulder, which isbasically the same thing.
The name pork butt does nottalk about where it comes from.
It comes from where it fitwithin the process of processing
(26:42):
pork.
What is it about the pork buttor pork shoulder that you like?
What do you use it for?
Mike Waller (26:47):
So I mainly use it just for pulled pork sandwiches
or pulled pork.
I did pulled pork nachos that acouple of weeks ago.
That ended up just amazing.
But I tend to go for the bostonbutt over shoulder.
I don't want to mess with thebone.
Lynn Dimick (27:05):
All right, shoulder hat the butt doesn't really.
You don't like that bone, see Ithat's.
That's how most people tellthat it's done is if they can
pull that thing out withouttearing the meat apart.
Mike Waller (27:13):
Oh man, my meat probe tells me that it's done
all right, so let's talk aboutthe meat probe.
Lynn Dimick (27:18):
The first time you cooked the shoulder or boston
butt or whatever it was, did yourun into something called the
stall?
Mike Waller (27:24):
explain what it is oh, you're cooking at such a low
temperature that as the meatstarts to heat up internally, it
gets to a point within withinthat meat that it's trying to
break through that, thattemperature range, so it could
start rendering fat.
And sometimes what happens isyou hit that and you don't have
(27:46):
enough heat currently to get itto push past that.
And it's called the stall for areason because it can.
It can stay there for, you know, 45 minutes, or it could stay
there for three and a half hoursall right now, let me.
Lynn Dimick (28:00):
Let me interrupt you right there.
And while people are sayingthree and a half hours and it
doesn't look like it's doinganything different, it's got to
drive you nuts.
How long does it normally taketo cook a pork like that?
Mike Waller (28:12):
so I have it down to a science.
I cook it in about anywherefrom 20 to 22 hours.
I usually will throw it onabout eight o'clock at night and
I'll babysit it through thenight and then I can pull it off
right around four, four, fiveo'clock, depending on.
You know I've had some thatthat cooked a little faster.
(28:35):
Again, it's all about thetemperature, not the time.
Lynn Dimick (28:39):
Now, when it's going through the stall, what do
you do to try and overcome thestall?
Do you just wait it out, or doyou?
Mike Waller (28:46):
wrap.
I found that what I like to dois I just leave it alone.
I have a wireless, you know,meat thermometer that is inside
the meat that I can look at itand I just go out and I check on
my pellets to make sure that Ihave enough fuel going into it.
I do not change it, I do nottake it off, I don't wrap it, I
(29:07):
don't do any of that.
Lynn Dimick (29:08):
So you just touched upon one of the key things
about a smoker, a pellet smoker,is that the temperature is
consistent and as long as you'vegot fuel, it's really easy to
maintain, to maintain thattemperature, whereas you're
cooking with charcoal or stickburner or something else.
You have to monitor that andyou have to add fuel which is
going to raise the temperatureand do goofy things.
Now, during that stall processand when it finishes, what it's
(29:31):
trying to do is break down someof the connective tissue in the
pork and that that connectivetissue becomes almost like a
gelatin and when it starts tomelt down, it's it's magic.
That's the only way to describeit.
It's magic because you get thissweet.
I don't want the slippery superflavor, rich content on the
meat, for lack of a betterdescription, and that's what
(29:54):
you're looking for especially ona pork butt.
Mike Waller (29:57):
I know some people that pull it off at 200, some
people that pull it off at 205,some people that pull it off at
198 and wrap it and throw it ina cooler and let it go through
its process.
I pull it at 230 degrees and Iwill pull it and I will throw it
into foil and I will put it ina cooler for a good hour,
(30:21):
letting it just sweat out allthe juices and then soak all the
juices back up and then I'llshred it.
Lynn Dimick (30:27):
You know you bring up a good point when you talk
about letting it sit there andresting, because what happens,
or what I found, is that if Itake a piece of meat off the
grill and if I cut itimmediately, the first thing
that happens is all this nicepink juice just gushes out and I
end up with dry meat.
By resting it, you allow thatjuice to be recirculated within
the meat to let it adjust.
(30:48):
The meat seems to plump up alittle bit, and the other thing
that happens is that there'ssome carryover cooking that goes
on so that you might pull it at203, but it might go up to 205
on its own.
But you've got it right whereyou want it.
I do know of people that havekept those.
I will take those and I willwrap them in foil, put a towel
around it, put it in an icechest and I've had those sit
(31:08):
there and stay, stay at about200 degrees for a good four
hours and they taste just asgood after that four hours as
they did coming off, if notbetter.
Mike Waller (31:18):
I mean, I used to make it for a job for a bunch of
my employees and I would smokeit all night and throw it in a
cooler.
I'd be able to pull it off.
You know, first thing in themorning, 6 am, I just throw it
in a cooler and then I wouldn'tserve it until 12.
And it would be still justcompletely juicy, flavorful and
(31:39):
still warm.
Lynn Dimick (31:40):
It wasn't hot, but it was warm.
Now, do you worry about themarking of the meat, whether
it's prime or choice or anythingelse Do you consider?
Mike Waller (31:49):
that?
No, I really don't.
I think that it's justmarketing.
Lynn Dimick (31:54):
I have to agree, I think there's a lot of marketing
in it, but I also find that I'mjust going to get something
cheaper.
And one of the purposes ofbarbecue, particularly smoking,
is you're trying to break themeat down.
Now I do need to cook likeWagyu, different than you do
things like tri-tip.
What do you say?
Wagyu?
Okay, you know what, I'll havethe pocketbook for Wagyu.
(32:16):
You okay, you know what?
I have the pocketbook for wagon.
I remember one time I decided Iwanted to send our friend you
know who I'm talking about, Ithink who lives, who used to
live in san antonio, that passedaway last march and um, I
thought, well, I'm gonna dosomething nice for him, because
he's always done some very kindof things for our family.
So I went online to, I want tosay, snake River Farms and I
sent him two Wagyu filet mignonsand these were two four-ounce
(32:44):
medallions and I think the pricewas $150.
Yeah, and they're very, verygood, but there's no meal in the
world worth $300 a pound.
No, not at all.
I do remember seeing a showcalled Texasxas law where they
follow around the rangers onwhatnot the game wardens and
they were investigating a casewhere somebody was shooting
(33:07):
across the property line and theneighbor's herd was behind them
and the the ranger didn't seemto be too excited.
He says, well, if they kill a,they owe you a couple thousand
bucks.
And the guy says, no, these areWagyu steer.
It's going to cost them $25,000if it kills one of those, which
is just insane.
Mike Waller (33:26):
I don't understand what Wagyu is versus a regular.
It just doesn't make sense tome.
Lynn Dimick (33:32):
The Wagyu has got a lot more small marbling
throughout so it's and it's alittle bit different flavor, so
it's almost like butter.
So it melts at a lowertemperature and it's got that
sweetness growing into it thatyou don't normally get from the
rest of the cows.
All right, unusual meats.
Have you ever smoked anythingthat was?
Mike Waller (33:51):
different.
I did an elk roast one time.
I tried to smoke that and it itdid not cook like I thought it
would.
What did you think it would do?
I thought that it would turnout more like a beef roast, Like
if you've ever smoked a beefroast, you know they come out
and you know they're really good.
It's actually a cheap cut ofmeat that you can serve,
(34:14):
basically shaved beef off ofRight.
But I cooked it and I cooked itto the 165 internal temperature
and I pulled it off and it wasit.
It was like beef jerky.
It was horrible because elkdoesn't have fat to it.
Same thing with deer.
Yep, yeah, that was.
The main thing that I didn'trecognize at that time was that
(34:35):
I needed the fat to replenishthe juices within the meat.
Lynn Dimick (34:39):
Yeah, for venison or something.
I don't think I'd take it over130, and even then I'd be really
careful I might just take it to125 or so and then let it slow
cook on its own.
Some game eats are tough.
Mike Waller (34:51):
I tried steak and it still was awful because it
just doesn't have anything.
I tried doing steak wrapped inbacon and bacon burnt and you
know I just I haven't had a lotof luck in the wild game side of
cooking your smoking meat didyou have a?
Lynn Dimick (35:08):
did you have a drip pan underneath it with some
water in it?
Yeah oh, I would have thoughtthat would have helped, because
that would help keep it a littlebit moister.
All right, here's a questionfor you.
Have you ever tried smokingcheeses?
Mike Waller (35:18):
it's on my list to do.
I've had smoked cheese, butright now it's.
I probably need to do it heresoon if I'm going to do it,
because it's still cold out here, but I just.
Lynn Dimick (35:31):
It makes me nervous , to be honest I tried it here
once and the problem is is thatout in the sun, my barbecue,
just from the metal cover andthe sun will top 100 degrees,
and for smoked cheese you wantto try and keep it below 80
degrees or 70, so you can put itinto an ice bath.
Mike Waller (35:50):
I've heard about the ice bath.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Just what I found is I can putif I want something with a
smoked cheese flavor, I'll justtake that cheese and put it in a
dish and smoke it and have itmelt.
Lynn Dimick (36:11):
The other thing that you will absolutely hate is
if you smoke cheese and you tryand eat it that day.
Mike Waller (36:14):
you're going to eat it it tastes like you're
licking a charcoal briquette.
You can't.
You definitely cannot withcheese.
I had co-worker that got abrand new trigger and wanted to
do it.
He did a really good job, buthe brought it in the next day
and it was pungent.
It was horrible.
But then he brought in the samesome from the same batch, like
two weeks later and it wasamazing.
(36:34):
Now, have you tried?
Lynn Dimick (36:36):
No, we don't do seafood in this house, that's
not seafood, that's fresh water,we don't do fish, salmon,
smoked salmon with a maple syrupand orange marinade is amazing.
Now, have you tried smokingbacon?
Yeah, okay, I've done that acouple of times and you get a
pork belly from the store whichis inexpensive Okay, I've done
(36:59):
that a couple of times and youget a pork belly from the store
which is inexpensive.
You have to trim off that realthick fat cap you know that
gooey like skin fat, yeah.
And then you marinate it for Iwant to say three or four days
with some curing salt, and thenyou put it on and smoke it and
that is some of the best baconyou'll ever have, because you
can control the flavor a littlebit more.
Mine tends to have less of asalt flavor than it does off the
(37:21):
shelf, so it's a little bitmilder that way.
And then you've got the themaple syrup running through it,
so it's pretty good and there'sa lot of people that'll do, like
pepper and some of the otherflavors, yeah what's your
favorite meat to barbecue orsmoke?
Mike Waller (37:34):
my favorite thing to cook is probably a whole
chicken.
It just, it turns out amazing.
You just want to say that wordspatchcock.
I cut the backbone out of itand then lay it face down and I
cook it about 275 and just letit go low and slow and it comes
out.
It's just, it's to die for.
Lynn Dimick (37:57):
I've got a small turkey in the freezer that we
bought last Thanksgiving.
I think it's about a 12 pounder.
That's sometime maybe forEaster.
I'm going to spatchcock it andsmoke it.
For those of you who arecurious, just look up
spatchcocking.
It's not at all what it soundslike.
You literally are removing thebackbone and breaking the bird
in half.
That's probably the best way todescribe it.
(38:17):
The advantage you have there isthat you are cooking the meat
and it comes out more evenlybecause you've got the breast,
which has a differenttemperature than the thighs.
Thighs and the legs have to goa little bit hotter.
Mike Waller (38:30):
And you don't have that dreaded, you know cavity in
the middle that trap seat andthen doesn't allow parts of it
to cook and parts of it to cookseat and then doesn't allow
parts of it to cook and parts ofit to cook.
You know, I I've found on, atleast on my whole chickens I
actually try to remove the ribs,oh really, yeah, I found that
it actually cooks a lot betterand that my breasts become like
(38:52):
come out a lot juicier I have totry that now.
Lynn Dimick (38:55):
the one thing I hate more than almost more than
anything else, is this idea ofthese beer can chickens.
Are you familiar with that?
Mike Waller (39:04):
Well, all right, tell me about it, and I'll tell
you why.
I think it's dumb, it'sfreaking amazing.
It's so good.
Lynn Dimick (39:10):
All right, so tell everybody what it is, and why
you like it.
Mike Waller (39:14):
It's called canned chicken, but I haven't had it
without beer.
You take your chicken and youput it on this tube.
Basically, that tube is filledwith a bunch of liquid.
What happens is, as it cooks,all of that liquid evaporates
(39:36):
and it goes through the meat.
The meat comes out extremelyjuicy, extremely flavorful,
whatever that you put in therefor the liquid, it just it
really comes through on the meat.
Lynn Dimick (39:45):
Okay, here's.
Here's.
The thing I don't like aboutthat is is what temperature does
it boil?
212 degrees.
Mike Waller (39:53):
Yeah, but you generally cook those at like 350
.
All right?
Lynn Dimick (39:57):
See, I've never heard of that.
I've always heard of it doinglow and slow.
And if you do it low and slow,you never get it to boil and
steam the meat.
Mike Waller (40:03):
No, every time I've had it it's cooked at like 300
or 350.
So a higher temperature rank.
Lynn Dimick (40:09):
Do you recommend that over a spatchcock bird or
just different?
It's just different.
Mike Waller (40:14):
I like the spatchcock bird because I can
really get in there and put myrub all over the chicken,
basically.
Lynn Dimick (40:23):
I know your family loves that because for the
Thanksgiving and other poultryyou guys like to put the rub and
the stuffing underneath theskin and all kinds of stuff.
I think you buy yourThanksgiving stuffing by the
pound.
So where the rest of us arelooking for these small little
four-ounce cans, you guys aresaying let's go to Costco and
let's double up.
Mike Waller (40:41):
I give that.
I give that to my wife, youknow she she found a really good
recipe for a rub for a turkeyand I came into it into the
marriage hating turkey, and shefound it and now I love turkey
Now now, one of the things aboutturkey and it's the same thing
with poultry is the secret tomaking it juicy is to leave the
(41:03):
skin on, because the skin hasgot so much fat in it.
Lynn Dimick (41:06):
when it heats up, it melts the fat into the meat.
Mike Waller (41:10):
But there's a difference there, right?
Like just taking a turkey outof the wrapping and washing it
and stuffing it and putting, youknow, butter on the skin.
That doesn't do it.
You have to pull that skin awayfrom the meat, you have to
separate it in order to get thatthose juices to stay trapped in
there.
Lynn Dimick (41:30):
In fact in competition cooking.
When they're doing the barbecuethey'll do.
They'll do thighs because thedark meat's got a lot of flavor
and they literally will take theskin off of the thigh.
They will scrape all the fatoff because they don't want to
try and deal with theinconsistencies there and put
the skin back on, and sometimesthey'll use a toothpick to
anchor it.
(41:50):
And it does make for some skinthat you can bite through and
the meat's good.
But again, they're cooking forone bite, not for the meal.
All right, on our way out.
Real quick question If youcould barbecue for anyone in
history, who would it be andwhat would you make?
And I think I know the answerto this.
But go ahead, Cook for my dad.
I knew it, I knew it.
Mike Waller (42:11):
I got you.
What would you cook him?
Probably make him a reversesear tri-tip.
Lynn Dimick (42:20):
There's something about a tri-tip that is just
beyond amazing.
It's easy to do, it's quick,the results are always wonderful
and if you ever get in asituation the very rare
situation where you got leftover, get some sourdough bread, put
some mayonnaise on one slice,chop the meat up small, put a
little bit of horseradish on theother side and it's heaven.
Mike Waller (42:37):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Lynn Dimick (42:39):
No, absolutely not, and you can see why we get
along so well with the smoking.
All right, what's your favoriteside dish to pair with barbecue
?
And do not tell me mac andcheese with panko on it.
Mike Waller (42:50):
No, you can't put panko on mac and cheese.
It dries it out.
But in our family lately I'vebeen smoking veggies.
I take broccoli, bell peppers,asparagus, zucchini and I will
douse it in some olive oil andthen lightly season it.
There's a Cosmos seasoning,it's like garlic butter
(43:19):
seasoning and I'll put that onthe veggies and I will smoke the
crap out of those things andthey get gobbled in my house.
Lynn Dimick (43:27):
See, the thing I don't like about that is the
same thing I don't like aboutthe cheese, and that's that.
The initial bite is just allsmoke.
I've tried to make salsa and Ihave never liked the flavor of
it.
Mike Waller (43:39):
My veggies don't come out with that strong smoke
flavor.
They they come out just likethey're almost like perfectly
cooked.
They're still there's a littlebit of char on them, but they're
still soft and they just havereally good flavor to them.
Another perfect side dish is dobaked potatoes on the smoker.
Lynn Dimick (44:01):
I've done that before and I'd love them better
that way.
Don't wrap them.
Don't bother to wrap them.
You want them dry.
Mike Waller (44:08):
You don't wrap them .
What you do is you poke themwhole, brush them with olive oil
, and then you put salt andpepper over the top of them, and
then you just let them smoke,and then you pull them off, you
let them rest and they'rethey're amazing there's.
Lynn Dimick (44:24):
Yeah, everyone here except me likes to wrap them in
foil and to me all that does issteam them and you don't really
get the.
Mike Waller (44:30):
The potato cells don't really burst and give out
their flavor I mean I I don'tlie, I'm not going to lie I do
like a wrapped baked potato inthe oven.
I don't like the super dry skin.
But on the smoker you can'twrap it because you have to poke
a bunch of holes in it so youget that smoke flavor to come
(44:50):
through.
Lynn Dimick (44:51):
And if you don't wrap it, the potato will explode
.
It does that in the ovenbecause there's nowhere for that
expanding steam to get out.
It becomes like popcorn.
All right, is there one lasthint, trick or piece of barbecue
wisdom that you want to sharewith our?
Mike Waller (45:06):
listener, don't be afraid to try it.
Just go for it.
Whatever you do, you're gonnamess something up, but you're
gonna end up perfecting it tothe way that you want it, and
it's really worth the journey.
Lynn Dimick (45:19):
Thank you for your wisdom.
I found that to be absolutelytrue, and it's something that,
no matter when you start, youmay never get to the point where
you think it's perfect.
There's always something thatcan be better, but everybody's
telling you how great it is.
Mike Waller (45:32):
Yeah, this guy that does this podcast here got a
smoker because someone else hada smoker.
Lynn Dimick (45:39):
Yep podcast here got a smoker because someone
else had a smoker.
Yep, you had one.
First I had the barbecues and Iwas doing the hot and fast and
I thought, well, I'll try thislow and slow and see what
happens, and I'm sure glad I did.
All right, mike, I'll let youget back at it and we'll talk to
you again soon, and I expect tohave some barbecue next time I
come up there.
One thing you may have foundout about grillers and smokemas
(46:00):
masters is there's a little bitof a competition going on.
It's unwritten, it's silent,it's friendly, but everybody
thinks that they have the bestrecipe, the best technique, the
best secrets and the bestmethods.
And so, to settle some of thesearguments, I will often ask the
grandkids who makes the bestmeat or barbecue.
Let me share with you some ofthe feedback that I received
from some of my grandchildren.
We'll start off with Blake, andI asked him what do you like
(46:23):
about my barbecue?
Tell me about it, do you likeit?
Mike Waller (46:27):
What about it?
Lynn Dimick (46:28):
Do you like it?
Mike Waller (46:30):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (46:31):
Is it the best you've ever had?
Mike Waller (46:32):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (46:33):
Okay, what do you like about it?
Mike Waller (46:36):
Everything.
Lynn Dimick (46:39):
Okay, what's your favorite?
Kind Steak?
All right.
How about the meat your dadcooks?
10 out of 10.
Mike Waller (46:49):
It's good as yours.
Lynn Dimick (46:50):
Ooh, bad question.
His dad has home fieldadvantage.
Okay, that's fair.
All right, I just wanted to getsome.
What?
Mike Waller (46:59):
Especially his burgers.
Lynn Dimick (47:01):
Oh, he makes good burgers.
Next up, we had Luke.
Luke is one of Mike's sons, soI knew these answers would be a
little interesting.
And again, mike has home fieldadvantage, which becomes obvious
with how long it takes Luke toanswer the first question.
Hey Luke, what are you doingbud?
Mike Waller (47:20):
Yelling at my little brother to stop singing.
Lynn Dimick (47:25):
All right.
So who makes a better barbecue,your dad or me?
Mike Waller (47:35):
I don't know, I just found.
Lynn Dimick (47:37):
On what.
Mike Waller (47:39):
On what you're making.
Lynn Dimick (47:40):
Alright, who makes a better, who makes better
chicken?
I knew what the answer wasgoing to be and I figured I'd
give Mike an easy one, becausemy chicken game Needs to step a
couple of steps.
Mike Waller (47:54):
Um, I'd say my dad.
Lynn Dimick (47:56):
Okay, who makes better steak?
Mike Waller (48:00):
Um, um, I'd say my dad.
Okay, who makes better steak?
Um, there's A1 sauce than you.
Lynn Dimick (48:06):
Okay, how about hamburgers?
Mike Waller (48:09):
Um my dad.
Lynn Dimick (48:11):
Okay, and what is it you like about your dad's
cooking?
Mike Waller (48:16):
He seasons it.
Lynn Dimick (48:18):
What kind of seasoning do you like?
And there you have it.
Just as Mike was emphasizingthe importance of a good rub,
his son was noticing that itdoes change and improve the
flavor.
All right, right now I've gotCaleb Smith here with me and
we're going to ask him Caleb,what's your favorite dinner?
Mike Waller (48:39):
Burgers.
Lynn Dimick (48:40):
You like burgers.
What burgers do you like?
Mike Waller (48:43):
The cheese and meat ones.
Lynn Dimick (48:45):
Your dad's or mine?
Mike Waller (48:48):
Both.
Lynn Dimick (48:48):
Okay, and what's your favorite Sunday dinner?
Mike Waller (48:53):
I don't know.
Lynn Dimick (48:54):
Oh, I thought it was steak and everything else.
Mike Waller (48:57):
Yeah, that's it.
Lynn Dimick (48:58):
Yeah, you like my steak.
Mike Waller (49:00):
Yeah.
Lynn Dimick (49:00):
Okay, thank you On more than one occasion.
After Sunday dinner, whichusually consists of tri-tip and
vegetables and some homemaderolls, we will have dessert.
After dessert, the grandkidswill usually ask for more meat
because they enjoy it and ittastes so good.
Thanks everyone, we'll talk atyou soon.
(49:22):
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of Grandpa Is Him.
We hope you enjoyed ourdiscussion and stories and maybe
even found some inspiration foryour own family adventures.
(49:44):
Now we want to hear from you.
What questions do you have orwhat topics would you like us to
explore in future episodes?
What stories can you share?
To share your ideas, simplyvisit our website at
grandpaishimcom and fill out thesubmission form.
You can also reach out to us onemail at grandpaishimcom, at
(50:06):
gmailcom.
We're always looking for yourthoughts and experiences, so
don't be shy.
Join the conversation and helpus create the content that
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.