November 13, 2024 • 31 mins
Half the Picture's guests this episode are Ron and Russell Mael of Sparks, pop stars extraordinaire and writers/composers of the award-winning musical 'Annette' directed by Leos Carax and starring Adam Driver and Marion Cotillard!
Ron and Russell joined us to break down the making of 'Annette' and their close working relationship with Leos Carax as well as their most recent world tour for their latest album 'The Girl Is Crying in Her Latte' which saw them play the biggest venues of their career. They also talked telling stories through music, shared advice for young artists looking to break into film/music and even touched a little on 'X-Crucior', their upcoming movie musical collab' with John Woo!
For all this and more, listen on! #Sparks #Annette #HalfThePicture
This October also saw Ron and Russell release the original 2013 recording of the 'Annette' soundtrack, as a limited edition 3LP boxset on the band’s own label Lil’ Beethoven Records.
Writing in the sleevenotes of this boxset release Ron and Russell said “Annette was a divisive film, but we feel a great film, and directed with enormous artistic skill by Leos, with a magnificent cast. Still, we feel that this earlier version of Annette should be listened to not as the preparatory or demo step toward a filmed version, but rather as a complete and alternative version in itself. We are very proud of it.”
Annette - An Opera By Sparks (The Original 2013 Recordings) is available exclusively through Sparks’ store at www.store.allsparks.com, limited to 1,000 copies.
Make sure you SUBSCRIBE to the channel so as not to miss any of Billy & Ahmed's interviews!
*Note: This interview was recorded on March 22nd 2024.
Full Episodes: / @halfthepicturepodcast
Watch the podcast: https://youtube.com/@halfthepicturepodcast?si=8iCJ7aQf87hMp8RP
Listen to the podcast online... APPLE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/7btEvvp...
Follow us online!
Half the Picture Instagram: / halfthepicpod
Billy on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/billybarnel...
Billy on Twitter: https://x.com/billybarnell?s=21&t=3QY...
Ahmed on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mrahmedoali?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Sparks on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sparks_official?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Timecodes
0:00 - Intro
00:14 - Passion for Cinema
02:00 - Working with Leos Carax
07:27 - The Cast of 'Annette'
13:26 - Storytelling through Music
16:55 - Reactions to 'Annette'
22:56 - The Girl Is Crying in Her Latte Tour
26:00 - Advice for Young Artists
29:12 - 'X-Crucior'
30:38 - The lights cut out!
31:07 - Lyrically Speaking with Ron Mael return?
33:16 - Outro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the podcast.
(00:02):
My name is Billy Barnell and I am beyond thrilled to have joined me today to discuss that film
Annette, Ron and Russell Mael of Sparks.
Howdy guys.
Hi there.
Hi Billy.
Lovely to meet you guys.
So I thought I'd just start off with talking about cinema because really when it comes
to you guys and your music and your careers, cinema is a huge part of it.
(00:23):
It goes right back to the start of your careers, right back to the very first albums and you
guys identify as film buffs, you reference films and filmmakers in your songs all the
time.
You know, like Orson Welles comes up a lot, I know, and songs like Rosebud and Occupation
and all those great songs of yours.
And I guess I wanted to ask you first off, do you guys still have that deep passion for
(00:46):
cinema today?
Do you go to the cinema a lot?
Do you still keep abreast of what's going on in cinema today?
Yeah, we do.
You know, it's kind of made us a little bit more lazy as far as going to theaters.
We feel guilty about that.
But just the streaming now, the positive side of that is that you can see films that maybe
(01:10):
wouldn't have even had a theatrical release.
So you know, we really kind of stayed, you know, watching films.
I mean, not for any reason other than we just enjoy it, you know.
And you know, obviously, the passion for film was something that when the Annette Project
(01:35):
came up, you know, it was just like a dream come true for us because first of all, to
be working with a French filmmaker and then to have it being shown at the Cannes Film
Festival as the opening film.
I mean, that was like, you know, we couldn't have had a better fairy tale story than that.
(01:56):
No, I guess not, because it was a long time in development, wasn't it?
I mean, that was what I wanted to ask you about next, really, was because you obviously,
you know, Leos Carricks was the director and he's such a formidable filmmaker and he has
such a vision, really, with all of his films, you know, the handful that he's made.
And I guess, you know, I know the project was a there was a long gestation project of
(02:17):
obviously you guys developing it yourselves and then Leo became Leos became interested
and what was your I just wanted to ask what your working process was like with Leos over
that time of developing the film and making it.
Yeah, we we kind of shared time between us going to Paris where he lives and then him
coming to LA where we live.
(02:37):
And it was a long kind of pre production period where, you know, he he kind of wanted to explore
kind of expanding on some of the the, you know, the story elements that we had in our
original version and kind of expanding them in certain ways.
(03:02):
And so those discussions went on actually for and those meetings for several years after
Leos had really, you know, signed on to to direct the film.
And so, you know, there were scenes that were added that weren't in our original version,
like the the ending, the abyss was Leos's idea.
(03:26):
And so with that idea of the prison scene, he asked us if we could come up with music
and then the and the lyrics to be able to convey that that scene that he wanted.
And there were a couple of the the girl from the middle of nowhere that scene where Marianne
(03:46):
Cotillard is kind of telling about her upbringing and how she got to be who she is now in in
the in her character.
That was I think Leos's idea wanted to have something that kind of addressed her situation
a bit more than we had done in our original version.
(04:07):
So there were a couple of things like that that we that then we, you know, after he had
mentioned about doing that, we then you know, it's it's an untidy kind of situation when
you're doing a movie musical because not only when the idea if it's from the director, whoever
(04:29):
comes up to revise some elements, then it's you know, normally if it's just a you know,
a non musical film, then you just adjust it in the screenplay to however you know, you
can best do it.
But when you have to do it as a musical, it's not only adjusting what's been written for
the dialogue, but the dialogue in our case is incorporated into the music.
(04:51):
So then the music has to be revised.
And so that's also part of the reason why the process was as lengthy in the pre production
because it's kind of an is an untidy way of working when when there's you know, notes
are given about certain elements of the story.
We were really fortunate, though, that Leos was sold on the kind of the basis of what
(05:18):
and that was that it was a musical that was pretty wall to wall singing that it wasn't
it was more in in kind of in line with like the umbrellas of Sherbrooke as far as being
you know, everyday kind of incidents are things that people sing to it wasn't a thing where
(05:40):
there's like eight songs that people break into song and start dancing in the street
and then it goes back to dialogue.
And so so he was sold on that and just and even just the basic story of the thing.
You know, it it changed, but it didn't change, you know, in a way where it would be unrecognizable.
(06:03):
And you know, we were flattered because this this was the first English language film that
Leos had had done.
And you know, he I mean, he he speaks kind of impeccable English is his mother's English.
And so so but just that he had never made a film in English.
(06:23):
And so we were it was really, you know, something special to us that this was the film that
he chose.
I can imagine.
So especially as we know, he only makes a movie every so you know, 10 years or so.
Yeah.
I guess I like to talk about the cast of you guys for a little bit, because the cast is
is quite an extraordinary cast.
(06:44):
I mean, it's contained, but it's the talent that's in that cast is extraordinary.
I mean, of course, you know, the leads being Adam Driver, Marion Cotillard, Simon Helberg
and and watching the film back again in research for this interview, I was struck by how not
only are they perfectly cast, but in so many different ways.
It's like because there are so many threads in your music and not just in a net, but in
(07:05):
your whole career, that those actors seem to just be perfectly in place to capture like
like Adam Driver.
You know, he's a great actor.
And watching that, you know, and that was actually what made me realize this guy can
do anything.
You know, he can do literally anything, it seems.
But he's so I mean, one of his great strengths to me is is he can depict anger and he can
and being sardonic and that sort of dry humor, which is at the core of so many of your songs.
(07:29):
And there's that dry element.
And that's there's a bit of that frustrates element as well to songs.
I think of songs off of Big B and off Gratu to Sax and all for your career, really.
And then then Marion is also perfectly placed to play that the sweet romantic elements,
the pure element and even Simon, you know, being the, you know, the accompanist, that
frustrated character, you know, he's so desperately in love, but he's so frustrated.
(07:52):
And how many spark songs are like that?
And I guess with the casting, were they always yours and Leos's first choices?
Well, you know, to be honest, it was Leos.
Leos had suggested all three of those actors.
But we we obviously were thrilled because I mean, initially it was Adam Driver was the
(08:16):
first actor that was brought into the project.
He was brought in several years before we actually shot the film.
It was even at the time of HBO series Girls that that Leos kind of discovered him.
Adam came over to our our studio and we met with him pretty early on in the process.
(08:38):
And he just wanted to talk about, you know, the the style of the singing and all.
And we were really, you know, just so happy because not only we think he's a great actor,
but he was on the same page with us as far as the style of the singing, where we didn't
(08:59):
want it to be like Broadway style singing, where it's really, you know, grand music,
you know, the Broadway musical stereotypical singing, where we wanted it to be more naturalistic
and just like a guy that, you know, happens to deliver his lines in a, you know, in a
(09:20):
melodic way. And so Adam was totally in sync with that.
And I think it's more comfortable for him. He's not like a, you know, a singer and he's
a he's a really good singer, but not in a, you know, a schooled kind of way and that
sort of way of Broadway tradition that's less exciting for us.
(09:41):
So we got along really well in that sort of way.
And I think also just both Marianne Cotillard and Simon Helberg also it was, you know, they
they really did get the kind of the slant that we saw as the style of the singing.
(10:01):
And obviously they're all really good actors. And then the question was, but how will it
work for them to be able to also sing and act and in the style that we had all hoped
for. But they all three of them really, you know, came through exactly what we, you know,
we couldn't we couldn't have, you know, imagine anybody else doing any of the three roles
(10:21):
and doing it better.
And Leo's had an extra wrinkle kind of in it where he wanted all the singing to be done
live on the set at the time of the shooting. And so that that's an extra complication in
a technical way. It really posed challenges for the technicians. And also it probably
(10:44):
put extra pressure on on the actors. But, you know, Leo's feeling was that maybe they
would kind of perform in a way that was kind of stronger and more immediate if they if
they actually sang while they were acting. And that was actually used, you know, probably
(11:04):
90 percent of the time.
Yeah. Well, it comes through. It's the singing is so raw and, you know, the way that, you
know, like so many of those scenes are so emotional and like the way that Adam and Marion
can obviously they're singing and they're singing their hearts out literally, but they're
also acting their hearts out and being able to balance those. I mean, even just physically,
that's a challenge. I know, like Marion was talking about how, you know, your breath cuts
(11:25):
off if you sort of, you know, as a singer, if you get too emotionally, you know, if you're
outpouring. So it's a hard one, I guess, opening out then a little bit in terms of you guys
as storytellers. I mean, because to me, that's what you are for your music. And so Annette,
obviously, is, I guess, the key example of your guys, one of the key examples of you
guys having like a narrative approach and a story driven approach to what you're doing.
(11:47):
But as well, the seduction of Ingmar Bergman is another one. I guess the other key one.
But I mean, go all for your work, you know, even going right back to the beginning with
those early albums and all the way through you guys. To me, it seems to take in such an
interesting approach to crafting almost like short stories and short films in your songs.
And I even thought and having that approach, I even think about like the structure of an
(12:10):
album like Number One in Heaven, which I know is celebrating its anniversary this year,
the kind of the birth to death structure of that from like the opening song to the ending
song, you know, tryouts to Number One in Heaven. And I wanted to ask, do you guys see, think
of yourselves as storytellers with what you're doing with your music?
Yeah, I think so, because I think our approach to lyrics, it's kind of always been like that.
(12:36):
I mean, there's so many songs that it can't make a complete generalization, but just that
by and large, the songs are kind of detailed, where a lot of people write songs that are
kind of a more general approach to issues. And we like to be really specific and kind
(13:01):
of maybe evoking images in people's heads, you know, which through the music. And so
I think it, you know, it differs from a lot of other pop songwriting in being really detailed
and specific about things in it. And even if it doesn't always come across as a story
(13:27):
with a beginning and middle and end, there's like kind of, you know, something going on
within the song that isn't just floating out big generalities like, you know, love and
hate and affection and those kinds of things that it's kind of demonstrated in a more specific
(13:54):
way. And, you know, we've always, you know, it was never like setting out to do things
in one way, but that's always been kind of our approach. I think it kind of maybe was
influenced at the very beginning because we were huge fans of the early Who and the early
(14:15):
Kinks and in their earlier songs, they were always like kind of vignettes and things that
were plucked out of the real world, but that kind of had a meaning beyond even what they
were specifically talking about. And so I think that was an influence on us. And, you
(14:39):
know, we never are worried about appearing too precious about things. I mean, this is
kind of the approach that we do. We can't really do it any other way.
Well, the way you do it is wonderful, as they say. So going back to Annette, I mean, so
(15:02):
the reception of that film was quite amazing, really, because you opened the Cannes Film
Festival back in 2021. I remember the film coming out and hearing about it and Leos won
Best Director and you guys won the César and the Lumiere Awards for Best Music. And
I guess, you know, the film, you know, and it's a unique film. And I guess now that it's
been a couple of years since it came out, I mean, what's your, what kind of reactions
(15:25):
have you guys got to the movie? What memorable reactions have you guys personally got for
the movie? Because it's such a unique film.
I mean, it's, you know, I mean, we think it's really, you know, it is a really unique film.
There's no real kind of comparisons. And I think the people that have sort of gravitated
(15:48):
towards it, you know, they see something really unique and something that kind of is real
singular in its whole approach and the story and the combination of those actors. So, you
know, we've gotten really good, you know, really good feedback from it. And I think
the Cannes Festival kind of event and everything that surrounded that and the Césars. And
(16:12):
for us, it was really special that it was kind of the initial thrust was really from
France. And so for us, we'd always been fans of French cinema. So to be part of like the
Cannes Film Festival and to have the reception that had and then to win César Awards when
we're Americans and all, it was just it's really bizarre, but bizarre in a really good
(16:36):
way. So we're just, you know, we're excited because it's pretty unique situation. You
know, something is, you know, even like a César Award for guys that aren't from France,
you know. And so, you know, so we have really good memories about the initial period. And
it's the kind of film, too, that I think is going to be re-examined, I think, you know,
(17:00):
because the one really great thing about films is that they're not, you know, they kind of
obviously live forever. And so people can reassess and rediscover the film. I think
there's still, you know, still an audience out there that maybe hasn't even seen it yet.
(17:21):
And at some point we'll discover it and, you know, and hopefully, you know, appreciate
what it stands for.
It was, you know, it was divisive in some ways. It wasn't to everybody's taste, but
the people that did like it really liked it passionately. And that's kind of all you can
(17:46):
hope for. I mean, we've never been, well, seldom. I mean, once or twice we've been locked
into certain situations where something we've done has been more universal. But in general,
what we do, it strikes a certain group of people in a really deep way, but other people
(18:08):
just aren't a part of that, you know, process. And so, you know, that's just the way it is.
You know, we were really proud, though, that the film was kind of accepted. I mean, the
two places where it kind of did have the most acceptance were both France and Japan. And,
(18:30):
you know, Japan was, they tend, you know, stereotyping, but they tend to like French
things in general. But it reached people that were, even the English language wasn't the
first language, but it was reaching them in a really emotional way. And so, you know,
(18:52):
we were doing Q&As in Japanese theaters, and it was really an exceptional thing that people
that were real cinema buffs there really grabbed a hold of that, of the film. You know, we
don't have any regrets at all, you know, about it. And, you know, the time it took to get
(19:21):
the film made, part of that was that we were, that the, that cast was able to be assembled
because that's such a key part of what Annette is.
And also, Leos is just passion for kind of nine years of development to focus, you know,
(19:45):
singularly on this project. He didn't have other projects. A lot of directors have, you
know, a lot of things in their arsenal of projects, but Leos had this one film. And
so to his credit, too, he kind of focused so much on it, which was, you know, which
was great to have that kind of, that's the only way you can get something made like that,
(20:06):
is to have that kind of passion from the team and the director and producers. So that really
worked to our advantage.
Absolutely. I mean, I'm so intrigued and excited to show this to an audience of students
who have probably no idea what they're going to be in for, because, you know, there's so
much joy in showing, presenting something that is so interesting and so, you know, ultra,
(20:31):
you know, I guess like people my age and younger, you know, probably don't have a reference
point for it. So it's very exciting for that prospect. Yeah. So opening it out again, so
the I wanted to ask you guys about the last year really, because I think it's fair to
say from my perspective anyway, that it's been quite a tumultuous, huge year for you
guys. I mean, the Latte Tour, your latest album, Girl is Crying in a Latte, which I
(20:56):
loved. The tour for that was huge for you guys. I mean, you were playing so many massive
venues like the Hollywood Bowl and the Albert Hall. I mean, I came along and saw you at
the Albert Hall and it was a fantastic, fantastic night. I mean, just as a fan and it felt like
the culmination of all the momentum of things like Overnet, Edgar Wright's Sparks River
documentary, which I also love and the album, of course. And being a fan in the audience,
(21:20):
you know, seeing you guys on stage and receiving all this love and all this passion, it was
quite profound. It was very heartening to me as a fan. And I can only imagine what it
must have been like for you guys. And I guess that's just what I wanted to ask was, yeah,
what was it like for you guys, especially now it's been a few months in hindsight now,
you know. Yeah. I mean, it was as moving for us as it sounds like it was for, you know,
(21:50):
places like the Royal Albert Hall for us, especially as Americans, it's iconic and
it symbolizes something. And, you know, when we were growing up, you know, you hear about
groups playing there and songs that reference the Royal Albert Hall and all day in the life,
you know. And then so to one day, because we were such anglophiles, then to one day
be actually playing there and doing two shows and all. And, you know, it was really special
(22:17):
to see in, you know, and also to see how the effect of Annette and the effect of Edgar
Wright's documentary and the latest album kind of all coming together at the same time
and to see how that kind of translated to being able to play bigger places like Albert
Hall and the Hollywood Bowl here in LA. And we just, the end of the tour, we played the
(22:39):
Sydney Opera House as well, which is another just iconic venue, which was meant a lot to
us to be able to play now at this point. So, yeah, so all that stuff was really, you know,
that tour, the tour was, you know, really special. And then for us too, it also is something
that we feel that us doing film work, just it isn't like it's a separate thing from
(23:07):
Sparks. It's all kind of one and the same for us. And so the film work we think really
also helps Sparks and then Sparks people also hopefully the other way, you know, gravitate
towards the films that we're doing too. So we consider it all just kind of one in the
same.
(23:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, as I say, being in the audience for those shows and seeing you guys
getting all this love was amazing. And even just running into some of the fans at the
shows who were in the documentary, it was quite, it was so strange and surreal. It was
wonderful. I guess then, so having had the careers you guys have had, the extraordinary
careers over 50 years, and gone through all that you've gone through and produced so much
(23:50):
amazing work and music. What advice would you give to someone starting out now who wants
to be say, working music or work in film or any of those creative fields? What advice
would you give?
Well, I mean, it takes a lot of stamina and kind of self belief. I think it's actually
harder now because when we started off, people, you know, just speaking about records that
(24:16):
record companies, they would stick by you if they just thought you were cool for, you
know, a few, a few albums. And now it's like, make it quick or else you're in trouble. So
I think it in that in that sense, it's more difficult. But I think, you know, you just
have to kind of always assume that you're right in what you're in what you're doing,
(24:41):
you know, and when we first started working on the in the film area, we had kind of tinkered
a little bit with soundtracks. And we, but we realized that our strength is really more
in in merging vocals with with music within a cinematic context. And so kind of soundtracks
(25:06):
were something that we really have much less interest in. And so, you know, but also we
also felt it was kind of presumptuous of us to be saying that we could write a narrative
piece that was two hours long. And so we you know, we just kind of did it and it kind of
(25:29):
worked out and there were a few people accepting of it. And so you just kind of have to, you
know, dive, dive in, you know, and and and hope that you find the right right people.
It's it's really hard to kind of sell what you're doing to other people. But if you're
(25:53):
lucky enough and somebody discovers it and and it's what they're kind of looking for,
you know, you're that's that's the position we've been fortunate enough to be in for for
a lot of the time, both in with it with our with the Sparks music and also with with film.
(26:15):
So I mean, it's just it's difficult to make career suggestions because we kind of don't
even think and we don't even plan anything. You know, things just happen. And and and
for us to be here at this point, you know, so many years after, you know, starting off,
(26:41):
it's kind of incredibly surreal and just but it also is we want to see how far we can kind
of continue to push things both from the Sparks standpoint, but also, you know, we're working
on a new movie musical now and and it's, you know, moving forward, you know, you never
(27:06):
you never know until it's actually done, but it's looking good. And we're we're very eager
for this project to stand beside Annette.
Well, there was an interview I just saw recently with Tom Hanks and it was in a way it was
(27:26):
kind of depressing because he is coming from Tom Hanks and he said that it's a miracle
that any movie gets made and kind of that's depressing on one hand, especially coming
from somebody that seems like he can make anything he wants to make. And so so we don't
take it for granted. I mean, we're in one way, you're kind of happy to hear that it's
(27:48):
it's always that way. You know, with Annette, it was, you know, there were a lot of issues
just, you know, to get producers involved. Even once we had Leos Carracks, there's always
a battle, there's a battle with studios. But if you're just, you know, passionate about
the project, passionate about what you do, hopefully it will rise above all the the nonsense
(28:13):
that kind of surrounds surrounds making a movie. So just hang in.
Hang in there. Wonderful, guys. Well, I'm aware that our 30 minutes are up. I mean,
I could keep talking to you guys all day, honestly, I could honestly I could I could
ask you something questions about Annette and all of your albums, to be honest. I mean,
(28:33):
I love them all. And but I know that we're running out of time. But I guess if I can
fit in one 10 second question. Oh, my God, what happened? The lights are gone. Hold on.
Hold on. Oh, my God. Okay. Oh, let me just turn this up. Okay. It's okay. The lights
have just gone off. I don't know why. Ron, any are there any plans to bring back the
(28:54):
lyrically speaking videos? I'm sorry. Are there any plans to bring back the lyrically
speaking videos that you used to do? The the lyrically speaking the ones where you read
those? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that yeah, I mean, just to explain that we we during
(29:16):
during the pandemic, you know, it was difficult for every band, but for us as well, just to
be able to present ourselves to people in a live context. And so so I did once a week,
I would do a dramatic recitation of of one of our songs. So there were, I think there
(29:40):
were like 52 of them one for a year. And then I thought maybe I was overstaying my welcome.
But you know, I'd like to do that again. I mean, I always felt in the past that that
just emphasizing only the lyrics was was not really what we were setting out to do, because
we always felt that the music and the lyrics are kind of one. But I could see the the the
(30:06):
impact of that. And and I really enjoyed doing it as well as an amateur thespian.
But there was just something glorious about you particularly. So put your fucking iPhone
down and listen to me was was particularly particularly glorious. So if you if you ever
decide to come back with those, I mean, so many songs off of latte would be amazing
(30:30):
just to hear the lyrics. But anyway, that's just a fan request. Anyway, okay. Yes, next
pandemic. I don't want to cross my fingers for that. But that would be wonderful. Okay,
guys. Well, like I said, I've kept you a little bit longer. So sorry about that. But thank
you so much. And I don't know they've obviously the lights that you know, the electricity
(30:50):
is gone. So I don't know what's going on. But but again, thank you so much for your
time, guys. As a fan, this was a bit of a dream come true for me. So and I and I look
forward to whatever you guys do next. I'm there. Great. Thank you. Really good speaking
with you. Good talking with you. Thanks, guys. Okay. Have a good rest of your day. Thank
you. Bye bye. Bye bye.
Hello and welcome back to the podcast.
(00:02):
My name is Billy Barnell and I am beyond thrilled to have joined me today to discuss that film
Annette, Ron and Russell Mael of Sparks.
Howdy guys.
Hi there.
Hi Billy.
Lovely to meet you guys.
So I thought I'd just start off with talking about cinema because really when it comes
to you guys and your music and your careers, cinema is a huge part of it.
(00:23):
It goes right back to the start of your careers, right back to the very first albums and you
guys identify as film buffs, you reference films and filmmakers in your songs all the
time.
You know, like Orson Welles comes up a lot, I know, and songs like Rosebud and Occupation
and all those great songs of yours.
And I guess I wanted to ask you first off, do you guys still have that deep passion for
(00:46):
cinema today?
Do you go to the cinema a lot?
Do you still keep abreast of what's going on in cinema today?
Yeah, we do.
You know, it's kind of made us a little bit more lazy as far as going to theaters.
We feel guilty about that.
But just the streaming now, the positive side of that is that you can see films that maybe
(01:10):
wouldn't have even had a theatrical release.
So you know, we really kind of stayed, you know, watching films.
I mean, not for any reason other than we just enjoy it, you know.
And you know, obviously, the passion for film was something that when the Annette Project
(01:35):
came up, you know, it was just like a dream come true for us because first of all, to
be working with a French filmmaker and then to have it being shown at the Cannes Film
Festival as the opening film.
I mean, that was like, you know, we couldn't have had a better fairy tale story than that.
(01:56):
No, I guess not, because it was a long time in development, wasn't it?
I mean, that was what I wanted to ask you about next, really, was because you obviously,
you know, Leos Carricks was the director and he's such a formidable filmmaker and he has
such a vision, really, with all of his films, you know, the handful that he's made.
And I guess, you know, I know the project was a there was a long gestation project of
(02:17):
obviously you guys developing it yourselves and then Leo became Leos became interested
and what was your I just wanted to ask what your working process was like with Leos over
that time of developing the film and making it.
Yeah, we we kind of shared time between us going to Paris where he lives and then him
coming to LA where we live.
(02:37):
And it was a long kind of pre production period where, you know, he he kind of wanted to explore
kind of expanding on some of the the, you know, the story elements that we had in our
original version and kind of expanding them in certain ways.
(03:02):
And so those discussions went on actually for and those meetings for several years after
Leos had really, you know, signed on to to direct the film.
And so, you know, there were scenes that were added that weren't in our original version,
like the the ending, the abyss was Leos's idea.
(03:26):
And so with that idea of the prison scene, he asked us if we could come up with music
and then the and the lyrics to be able to convey that that scene that he wanted.
And there were a couple of the the girl from the middle of nowhere that scene where Marianne
(03:46):
Cotillard is kind of telling about her upbringing and how she got to be who she is now in in
the in her character.
That was I think Leos's idea wanted to have something that kind of addressed her situation
a bit more than we had done in our original version.
(04:07):
So there were a couple of things like that that we that then we, you know, after he had
mentioned about doing that, we then you know, it's it's an untidy kind of situation when
you're doing a movie musical because not only when the idea if it's from the director, whoever
(04:29):
comes up to revise some elements, then it's you know, normally if it's just a you know,
a non musical film, then you just adjust it in the screenplay to however you know, you
can best do it.
But when you have to do it as a musical, it's not only adjusting what's been written for
the dialogue, but the dialogue in our case is incorporated into the music.
(04:51):
So then the music has to be revised.
And so that's also part of the reason why the process was as lengthy in the pre production
because it's kind of an is an untidy way of working when when there's you know, notes
are given about certain elements of the story.
We were really fortunate, though, that Leos was sold on the kind of the basis of what
(05:18):
and that was that it was a musical that was pretty wall to wall singing that it wasn't
it was more in in kind of in line with like the umbrellas of Sherbrooke as far as being
you know, everyday kind of incidents are things that people sing to it wasn't a thing where
(05:40):
there's like eight songs that people break into song and start dancing in the street
and then it goes back to dialogue.
And so so he was sold on that and just and even just the basic story of the thing.
You know, it it changed, but it didn't change, you know, in a way where it would be unrecognizable.
(06:03):
And you know, we were flattered because this this was the first English language film that
Leos had had done.
And you know, he I mean, he he speaks kind of impeccable English is his mother's English.
And so so but just that he had never made a film in English.
(06:23):
And so we were it was really, you know, something special to us that this was the film that
he chose.
I can imagine.
So especially as we know, he only makes a movie every so you know, 10 years or so.
Yeah.
I guess I like to talk about the cast of you guys for a little bit, because the cast is
is quite an extraordinary cast.
(06:44):
I mean, it's contained, but it's the talent that's in that cast is extraordinary.
I mean, of course, you know, the leads being Adam Driver, Marion Cotillard, Simon Helberg
and and watching the film back again in research for this interview, I was struck by how not
only are they perfectly cast, but in so many different ways.
It's like because there are so many threads in your music and not just in a net, but in
(07:05):
your whole career, that those actors seem to just be perfectly in place to capture like
like Adam Driver.
You know, he's a great actor.
And watching that, you know, and that was actually what made me realize this guy can
do anything.
You know, he can do literally anything, it seems.
But he's so I mean, one of his great strengths to me is is he can depict anger and he can
and being sardonic and that sort of dry humor, which is at the core of so many of your songs.
(07:29):
And there's that dry element.
And that's there's a bit of that frustrates element as well to songs.
I think of songs off of Big B and off Gratu to Sax and all for your career, really.
And then then Marion is also perfectly placed to play that the sweet romantic elements,
the pure element and even Simon, you know, being the, you know, the accompanist, that
frustrated character, you know, he's so desperately in love, but he's so frustrated.
(07:52):
And how many spark songs are like that?
And I guess with the casting, were they always yours and Leos's first choices?
Well, you know, to be honest, it was Leos.
Leos had suggested all three of those actors.
But we we obviously were thrilled because I mean, initially it was Adam Driver was the
(08:16):
first actor that was brought into the project.
He was brought in several years before we actually shot the film.
It was even at the time of HBO series Girls that that Leos kind of discovered him.
Adam came over to our our studio and we met with him pretty early on in the process.
(08:38):
And he just wanted to talk about, you know, the the style of the singing and all.
And we were really, you know, just so happy because not only we think he's a great actor,
but he was on the same page with us as far as the style of the singing, where we didn't
(08:59):
want it to be like Broadway style singing, where it's really, you know, grand music,
you know, the Broadway musical stereotypical singing, where we wanted it to be more naturalistic
and just like a guy that, you know, happens to deliver his lines in a, you know, in a
(09:20):
melodic way. And so Adam was totally in sync with that.
And I think it's more comfortable for him. He's not like a, you know, a singer and he's
a he's a really good singer, but not in a, you know, a schooled kind of way and that
sort of way of Broadway tradition that's less exciting for us.
(09:41):
So we got along really well in that sort of way.
And I think also just both Marianne Cotillard and Simon Helberg also it was, you know, they
they really did get the kind of the slant that we saw as the style of the singing.
(10:01):
And obviously they're all really good actors. And then the question was, but how will it
work for them to be able to also sing and act and in the style that we had all hoped
for. But they all three of them really, you know, came through exactly what we, you know,
we couldn't we couldn't have, you know, imagine anybody else doing any of the three roles
(10:21):
and doing it better.
And Leo's had an extra wrinkle kind of in it where he wanted all the singing to be done
live on the set at the time of the shooting. And so that that's an extra complication in
a technical way. It really posed challenges for the technicians. And also it probably
(10:44):
put extra pressure on on the actors. But, you know, Leo's feeling was that maybe they
would kind of perform in a way that was kind of stronger and more immediate if they if
they actually sang while they were acting. And that was actually used, you know, probably
(11:04):
90 percent of the time.
Yeah. Well, it comes through. It's the singing is so raw and, you know, the way that, you
know, like so many of those scenes are so emotional and like the way that Adam and Marion
can obviously they're singing and they're singing their hearts out literally, but they're
also acting their hearts out and being able to balance those. I mean, even just physically,
that's a challenge. I know, like Marion was talking about how, you know, your breath cuts
(11:25):
off if you sort of, you know, as a singer, if you get too emotionally, you know, if you're
outpouring. So it's a hard one, I guess, opening out then a little bit in terms of you guys
as storytellers. I mean, because to me, that's what you are for your music. And so Annette,
obviously, is, I guess, the key example of your guys, one of the key examples of you
guys having like a narrative approach and a story driven approach to what you're doing.
(11:47):
But as well, the seduction of Ingmar Bergman is another one. I guess the other key one.
But I mean, go all for your work, you know, even going right back to the beginning with
those early albums and all the way through you guys. To me, it seems to take in such an
interesting approach to crafting almost like short stories and short films in your songs.
And I even thought and having that approach, I even think about like the structure of an
(12:10):
album like Number One in Heaven, which I know is celebrating its anniversary this year,
the kind of the birth to death structure of that from like the opening song to the ending
song, you know, tryouts to Number One in Heaven. And I wanted to ask, do you guys see, think
of yourselves as storytellers with what you're doing with your music?
Yeah, I think so, because I think our approach to lyrics, it's kind of always been like that.
(12:36):
I mean, there's so many songs that it can't make a complete generalization, but just that
by and large, the songs are kind of detailed, where a lot of people write songs that are
kind of a more general approach to issues. And we like to be really specific and kind
(13:01):
of maybe evoking images in people's heads, you know, which through the music. And so
I think it, you know, it differs from a lot of other pop songwriting in being really detailed
and specific about things in it. And even if it doesn't always come across as a story
(13:27):
with a beginning and middle and end, there's like kind of, you know, something going on
within the song that isn't just floating out big generalities like, you know, love and
hate and affection and those kinds of things that it's kind of demonstrated in a more specific
(13:54):
way. And, you know, we've always, you know, it was never like setting out to do things
in one way, but that's always been kind of our approach. I think it kind of maybe was
influenced at the very beginning because we were huge fans of the early Who and the early
(14:15):
Kinks and in their earlier songs, they were always like kind of vignettes and things that
were plucked out of the real world, but that kind of had a meaning beyond even what they
were specifically talking about. And so I think that was an influence on us. And, you
(14:39):
know, we never are worried about appearing too precious about things. I mean, this is
kind of the approach that we do. We can't really do it any other way.
Well, the way you do it is wonderful, as they say. So going back to Annette, I mean, so
(15:02):
the reception of that film was quite amazing, really, because you opened the Cannes Film
Festival back in 2021. I remember the film coming out and hearing about it and Leos won
Best Director and you guys won the César and the Lumiere Awards for Best Music. And
I guess, you know, the film, you know, and it's a unique film. And I guess now that it's
been a couple of years since it came out, I mean, what's your, what kind of reactions
(15:25):
have you guys got to the movie? What memorable reactions have you guys personally got for
the movie? Because it's such a unique film.
I mean, it's, you know, I mean, we think it's really, you know, it is a really unique film.
There's no real kind of comparisons. And I think the people that have sort of gravitated
(15:48):
towards it, you know, they see something really unique and something that kind of is real
singular in its whole approach and the story and the combination of those actors. So, you
know, we've gotten really good, you know, really good feedback from it. And I think
the Cannes Festival kind of event and everything that surrounded that and the Césars. And
(16:12):
for us, it was really special that it was kind of the initial thrust was really from
France. And so for us, we'd always been fans of French cinema. So to be part of like the
Cannes Film Festival and to have the reception that had and then to win César Awards when
we're Americans and all, it was just it's really bizarre, but bizarre in a really good
(16:36):
way. So we're just, you know, we're excited because it's pretty unique situation. You
know, something is, you know, even like a César Award for guys that aren't from France,
you know. And so, you know, so we have really good memories about the initial period. And
it's the kind of film, too, that I think is going to be re-examined, I think, you know,
(17:00):
because the one really great thing about films is that they're not, you know, they kind of
obviously live forever. And so people can reassess and rediscover the film. I think
there's still, you know, still an audience out there that maybe hasn't even seen it yet.
(17:21):
And at some point we'll discover it and, you know, and hopefully, you know, appreciate
what it stands for.
It was, you know, it was divisive in some ways. It wasn't to everybody's taste, but
the people that did like it really liked it passionately. And that's kind of all you can
(17:46):
hope for. I mean, we've never been, well, seldom. I mean, once or twice we've been locked
into certain situations where something we've done has been more universal. But in general,
what we do, it strikes a certain group of people in a really deep way, but other people
(18:08):
just aren't a part of that, you know, process. And so, you know, that's just the way it is.
You know, we were really proud, though, that the film was kind of accepted. I mean, the
two places where it kind of did have the most acceptance were both France and Japan. And,
(18:30):
you know, Japan was, they tend, you know, stereotyping, but they tend to like French
things in general. But it reached people that were, even the English language wasn't the
first language, but it was reaching them in a really emotional way. And so, you know,
(18:52):
we were doing Q&As in Japanese theaters, and it was really an exceptional thing that people
that were real cinema buffs there really grabbed a hold of that, of the film. You know, we
don't have any regrets at all, you know, about it. And, you know, the time it took to get
(19:21):
the film made, part of that was that we were, that the, that cast was able to be assembled
because that's such a key part of what Annette is.
And also, Leos is just passion for kind of nine years of development to focus, you know,
(19:45):
singularly on this project. He didn't have other projects. A lot of directors have, you
know, a lot of things in their arsenal of projects, but Leos had this one film. And
so to his credit, too, he kind of focused so much on it, which was, you know, which
was great to have that kind of, that's the only way you can get something made like that,
(20:06):
is to have that kind of passion from the team and the director and producers. So that really
worked to our advantage.
Absolutely. I mean, I'm so intrigued and excited to show this to an audience of students
who have probably no idea what they're going to be in for, because, you know, there's so
much joy in showing, presenting something that is so interesting and so, you know, ultra,
(20:31):
you know, I guess like people my age and younger, you know, probably don't have a reference
point for it. So it's very exciting for that prospect. Yeah. So opening it out again, so
the I wanted to ask you guys about the last year really, because I think it's fair to
say from my perspective anyway, that it's been quite a tumultuous, huge year for you
guys. I mean, the Latte Tour, your latest album, Girl is Crying in a Latte, which I
(20:56):
loved. The tour for that was huge for you guys. I mean, you were playing so many massive
venues like the Hollywood Bowl and the Albert Hall. I mean, I came along and saw you at
the Albert Hall and it was a fantastic, fantastic night. I mean, just as a fan and it felt like
the culmination of all the momentum of things like Overnet, Edgar Wright's Sparks River
documentary, which I also love and the album, of course. And being a fan in the audience,
(21:20):
you know, seeing you guys on stage and receiving all this love and all this passion, it was
quite profound. It was very heartening to me as a fan. And I can only imagine what it
must have been like for you guys. And I guess that's just what I wanted to ask was, yeah,
what was it like for you guys, especially now it's been a few months in hindsight now,
you know. Yeah. I mean, it was as moving for us as it sounds like it was for, you know,
(21:50):
places like the Royal Albert Hall for us, especially as Americans, it's iconic and
it symbolizes something. And, you know, when we were growing up, you know, you hear about
groups playing there and songs that reference the Royal Albert Hall and all day in the life,
you know. And then so to one day, because we were such anglophiles, then to one day
be actually playing there and doing two shows and all. And, you know, it was really special
(22:17):
to see in, you know, and also to see how the effect of Annette and the effect of Edgar
Wright's documentary and the latest album kind of all coming together at the same time
and to see how that kind of translated to being able to play bigger places like Albert
Hall and the Hollywood Bowl here in LA. And we just, the end of the tour, we played the
(22:39):
Sydney Opera House as well, which is another just iconic venue, which was meant a lot to
us to be able to play now at this point. So, yeah, so all that stuff was really, you know,
that tour, the tour was, you know, really special. And then for us too, it also is something
that we feel that us doing film work, just it isn't like it's a separate thing from
(23:07):
Sparks. It's all kind of one and the same for us. And so the film work we think really
also helps Sparks and then Sparks people also hopefully the other way, you know, gravitate
towards the films that we're doing too. So we consider it all just kind of one in the
same.
(23:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, as I say, being in the audience for those shows and seeing you guys
getting all this love was amazing. And even just running into some of the fans at the
shows who were in the documentary, it was quite, it was so strange and surreal. It was
wonderful. I guess then, so having had the careers you guys have had, the extraordinary
careers over 50 years, and gone through all that you've gone through and produced so much
(23:50):
amazing work and music. What advice would you give to someone starting out now who wants
to be say, working music or work in film or any of those creative fields? What advice
would you give?
Well, I mean, it takes a lot of stamina and kind of self belief. I think it's actually
harder now because when we started off, people, you know, just speaking about records that
(24:16):
record companies, they would stick by you if they just thought you were cool for, you
know, a few, a few albums. And now it's like, make it quick or else you're in trouble. So
I think it in that in that sense, it's more difficult. But I think, you know, you just
have to kind of always assume that you're right in what you're in what you're doing,
(24:41):
you know, and when we first started working on the in the film area, we had kind of tinkered
a little bit with soundtracks. And we, but we realized that our strength is really more
in in merging vocals with with music within a cinematic context. And so kind of soundtracks
(25:06):
were something that we really have much less interest in. And so, you know, but also we
also felt it was kind of presumptuous of us to be saying that we could write a narrative
piece that was two hours long. And so we you know, we just kind of did it and it kind of
(25:29):
worked out and there were a few people accepting of it. And so you just kind of have to, you
know, dive, dive in, you know, and and and hope that you find the right right people.
It's it's really hard to kind of sell what you're doing to other people. But if you're
(25:53):
lucky enough and somebody discovers it and and it's what they're kind of looking for,
you know, you're that's that's the position we've been fortunate enough to be in for for
a lot of the time, both in with it with our with the Sparks music and also with with film.
(26:15):
So I mean, it's just it's difficult to make career suggestions because we kind of don't
even think and we don't even plan anything. You know, things just happen. And and and
for us to be here at this point, you know, so many years after, you know, starting off,
(26:41):
it's kind of incredibly surreal and just but it also is we want to see how far we can kind
of continue to push things both from the Sparks standpoint, but also, you know, we're working
on a new movie musical now and and it's, you know, moving forward, you know, you never
(27:06):
you never know until it's actually done, but it's looking good. And we're we're very eager
for this project to stand beside Annette.
Well, there was an interview I just saw recently with Tom Hanks and it was in a way it was
(27:26):
kind of depressing because he is coming from Tom Hanks and he said that it's a miracle
that any movie gets made and kind of that's depressing on one hand, especially coming
from somebody that seems like he can make anything he wants to make. And so so we don't
take it for granted. I mean, we're in one way, you're kind of happy to hear that it's
(27:48):
it's always that way. You know, with Annette, it was, you know, there were a lot of issues
just, you know, to get producers involved. Even once we had Leos Carracks, there's always
a battle, there's a battle with studios. But if you're just, you know, passionate about
the project, passionate about what you do, hopefully it will rise above all the the nonsense
(28:13):
that kind of surrounds surrounds making a movie. So just hang in.
Hang in there. Wonderful, guys. Well, I'm aware that our 30 minutes are up. I mean,
I could keep talking to you guys all day, honestly, I could honestly I could I could
ask you something questions about Annette and all of your albums, to be honest. I mean,
(28:33):
I love them all. And but I know that we're running out of time. But I guess if I can
fit in one 10 second question. Oh, my God, what happened? The lights are gone. Hold on.
Hold on. Oh, my God. Okay. Oh, let me just turn this up. Okay. It's okay. The lights
have just gone off. I don't know why. Ron, any are there any plans to bring back the
(28:54):
lyrically speaking videos? I'm sorry. Are there any plans to bring back the lyrically
speaking videos that you used to do? The the lyrically speaking the ones where you read
those? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that yeah, I mean, just to explain that we we during
(29:16):
during the pandemic, you know, it was difficult for every band, but for us as well, just to
be able to present ourselves to people in a live context. And so so I did once a week,
I would do a dramatic recitation of of one of our songs. So there were, I think there
(29:40):
were like 52 of them one for a year. And then I thought maybe I was overstaying my welcome.
But you know, I'd like to do that again. I mean, I always felt in the past that that
just emphasizing only the lyrics was was not really what we were setting out to do, because
we always felt that the music and the lyrics are kind of one. But I could see the the the
(30:06):
impact of that. And and I really enjoyed doing it as well as an amateur thespian.
But there was just something glorious about you particularly. So put your fucking iPhone
down and listen to me was was particularly particularly glorious. So if you if you ever
decide to come back with those, I mean, so many songs off of latte would be amazing
(30:30):
just to hear the lyrics. But anyway, that's just a fan request. Anyway, okay. Yes, next
pandemic. I don't want to cross my fingers for that. But that would be wonderful. Okay,
guys. Well, like I said, I've kept you a little bit longer. So sorry about that. But thank
you so much. And I don't know they've obviously the lights that you know, the electricity
(30:50):
is gone. So I don't know what's going on. But but again, thank you so much for your
time, guys. As a fan, this was a bit of a dream come true for me. So and I and I look
forward to whatever you guys do next. I'm there. Great. Thank you. Really good speaking
with you. Good talking with you. Thanks, guys. Okay. Have a good rest of your day. Thank
you. Bye bye. Bye bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.