H.Y.S.T? Season 1 Finale! Movie Fights!

We've taken the entire collection of all the films we covered this season and put them head-to-head, tournament style! For detailed coverage of all the films, head to the individual episodes, but for now, LET'S GO!!!!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Doc, are you ready for this secondhand lion's bullshit that happened to my face at the barbershop today?

(00:10):
Yeah, so you're telling me, you're telling me, let's do a little setup here.
You're telling me that in celebration of our season finale here and our big movie fight, you decided that you wanted to go face sculpting.
And after doing all the work of selecting the perfect face sculpt and finding a barber to do the face sculpt, professional, this is not you working out of your bathroom mirror.

(00:36):
You got a professional and that professional failed you.
And you have chosen rather than do what most people with a bad haircut do, which is cut it off and let it grow fresh.
You decided to keep it just long enough to see my reaction to it. And we're doing that right now. That's what you're saying?
Well, one, to see your reaction, because yes, it is funny.

(00:59):
The two, I made my bed.
I said I was doing it for the finale.
So I'm doing it for the finale.
What the actual Tony Stark fuck is that?
Yeah.

(01:20):
Yeah, you're like the bad guy in a French romance.
What is going on here?
What were you trying to do?
I look like my grandfather told me tales of the McCain brothers.
Why, you know what?
I'm I'm half a mind to say we need to stop the show and you need to go shave right now.

(01:45):
I cannot go on like this.
I can't have to. I have to. I made my bed.
It was a decision. I.
Dude, I look like like a dragster or like not not not like a drag star.
But I look I look like somebody.

(02:06):
On a motorcycle burnt out on my face.
No, you know what you look like.
You look like in like a Latino gang drama.
You're the guy who's trying really hard to suck up to the boss.
But the boss hates you because you're such such a suck up.
That's who you look like.
And look, I literally look like a white guy trying to be a fool.

(02:28):
Welcome to Heist.
I'm Bradly Hackworth, joined by Jonathan Ems.
Hello, fellow humans.
And we are jumping in for our season one finale, which is going to be an "epic" competition of movie fights.
We are going to try to make them as short as humanly possible because we have so many.

(02:49):
Just just in our preliminary round, we have 22 that we have to get through.
So what do you say we get through them or get to them?
Well, I mean, real quick, I do want to just say they took me a moment to process this.
But you said earlier that only one percent of podcasters make it this many episodes in.

(03:11):
Yeah. And I don't know.
I don't know how I feel about being a one percenter now.
Well, considering the fact that we're both still broke, I don't think it's that bad.
OK, all right. I can live with it then.
We're a pretty garbage version of the one percenters, but you know what?
Whatever. Right. All right.

(03:32):
So the way that we're going into it is it's going to be each one is going to be a competition of which one had the better story,
which one succeeded more technically, and then which one we just recommend overall,
like which one between the two actually is going to come out on top.
And like complete morons, we're starting with two of our favorite movies.

(03:58):
And that is not OK. We should not like it should not have been one of my favorites and one of your favorites should have been,
hey, this is one of my favorites.
What do you got this week?
Because going up with two favorites, this is going to get nasty.
Yeah. So what do you say we just go ahead?
Good. Might be it might be taking some things personal.

(04:19):
Maybe. But in the interest of moving things along, I might be a little bit forgiving with a lot of stuff.
And I don't have to be great. Well, fuck that.
OK, that's your position. All right. No, let's get it. Let's get it going.
All right. Fair enough.
Round one of our preliminary match is going to be bound versus a low down dirty shame,

(04:44):
low down dirty shame, starting starring Kenan Ivory Waynes and Jada Pinkett Smith, bound starring Gina Gershon and Jennifer Tilley.
And now and Joey Pants. Don't forget Joey Pants.
I'm just going with the top. All right.
We got interest of time and who the fuck.
When we get to the paper, I mean, oh, my God.
Yeah. And that's the thing is not because I remember even when we did this episode,

(05:07):
we got into it about which one of these was a better movie at the time.
And we did not come to a conclusion there.
This was this was our first like true like butting heads moment was it was which which of those two was a better movie.
And ironically, we chose to do that for episode one.
So that was that was fun. Let's get into this again and see how it goes.

(05:27):
So first off, the better story.
Oh, this sucks because first first round first question.
I don't know how to answer this because one bound was a good story.
However, it is still not clear.

(05:48):
It is still not completely clear.
They did the Indie film thing and they left it open ended and you don't really know.
But what Jennifer Tilley did, maybe you don't really know.
But here's the thing. Just in what we do know, the series of events between her and Gina Gershon
and what she did with with with Caesar, you know, as her boyfriend, the way she played him and played the other gang members,

(06:12):
that was like Hitchcock level storytelling right there.
Even if you don't know exactly what happened, just the series of events that leave you both confused and intrigued at the same time as it goes on.
Like it was incomparable to I'm sorry, Lowdown Dirty Shame was a pretty run of the mill detective story.

(06:33):
It was a good one. I will bear. I will grant you that.
But there was there were no surprises in that movie, I'm sorry to say.
No, there were no real ultimate surprises in that one.
It was just done so well.
So, OK, this is what I'm going to give you like right off the bat as the better story.

(06:53):
I'll give it to Bound. OK, yep, I agree.
The better technical, like how they performed in the technical versions and like what they were aiming for, how they succeeded.
Bound was a trial run for the Matrix, so a bunch of the things that they tried.
It was fun. It was experimental and all that.
But a Lowdown Dirty Shame did the detective noir kind of betrayal revenge story.

(07:20):
Right. Better than most.
Better than most, more entertaining than most. And that's fair.
The better story, Bound. The technical win.
I'm giving it to a Lowdown Dirty Shame, the one that we're going to recommend.
Give your justification for Bound.
Because it was a groundbreaking film in multiple ways.

(07:45):
Lowdown Dirty Shame, yes, technically good, but it was technically good on its template with the difference being the cast that it had to play its roles.
There was nothing astoundingly groundbreaking about it.
It was kind of an updated retread of Shaft in a lot of ways.
Yes, it was fun. It was not groundbreaking.

(08:05):
Bound was groundbreaking in multiple dimensions.
I will give you that. OK, as much as I hate to kind of say it, to put it this way, because a Lowdown Dirty Shame is one of my favorite movies of all time.
I am actually going to give this one to Bound.
So Bound is going to be our winner for round one.

(08:28):
Round two, Dutch versus the paper.
The better story. That's kind of a tough one for me because the paper, the story was a day in the life of.
Who was I really supposed to care about the most?
Because the only one I cared about in the entire movie was Marissa Tomei.

(08:48):
Well, that's the thing is, to a certain degree, we're kind of supposed to care about everybody for different ways.
You were supposed to care about you're supposed to care about Henry and Marissa Tomei.
And that's kind of what makes the conflict of their marriage falling apart because of this so painful is because they're both right.
You know, and you relate to both of them on this.

(09:08):
That was kind of the point there. Even kind of relate to Phil in the chair, like his whole thing.
Like I'm sitting in a shitty chair right now going like, I get it, Phil, man, this is important.
Yeah, but I mean, all of that, like that was all so fast and it went by so fast that I didn't like none of it really sat with me enough to care about.

(09:32):
Like on rewatches, maybe the more and the more Dutch just with those two, what they were going through.
I did care a lot about what Dutch was going through, what he had to do, the things that he had to overcome, like him as a character.
I felt his struggle. I related to his struggle.
And I was more in with his character than any of the characters in the paper, even though they were.

(09:57):
So this is like the exact opposite of where I'm going with.
Round one, because I'm giving Dutch the story when because I cared about every character in this movie and that movie, everyone.
Either I cared about them or I hated them appropriately.
Exactly how I was supposed to the paper. Technical.

(10:21):
Brilliance. Yeah, no, that's true.
That is that is a far and away hands down. Yeah, there's no argument.
Yeah, do I want to concede on the story thing? I'm not 100 percent sure I do.
But what was the see, the thing is the paper had so many stories.

(10:42):
That's the thing, but and it has so many stories, but they all intertwined.
That was the thing is like there is no point where you get lost in all of the stuff that's going on in this movie,
because every single one of those multiple storylines all weave together pretty seamlessly.
So the one the only reason they do is because they all work together.

(11:02):
It's not like it's not like they were all like stumbling upon the like the dollar bill story.
It wasn't like that. It was where they all work together.
So they were kind of forced to all intertwine. It wasn't the story that made that happen.
It was where they worked. OK.
So like I said, I really cared about like a couple of them.

(11:26):
That was it. But the pregnancy, what was going on with Mercedome, they used gimmicks to get me to care about them.
Dutch didn't use gimmicks. It was the story. OK.
That's what I'm saying. I'm like Dutch story paper technical.

(11:48):
I mean, I suppose. I don't entirely agree, but I guess I can't I can't fight well enough on that,
because I don't even really remember Dutch that well.
That's kind of and it's not fair for me to compare that considering I've seen the paper like a thousand times.
So yeah, that is a little bit like I could see here.
Yeah. Argue the paper for a while. But like, yeah, I still have to give the paper

(12:15):
the what I'm going to be recommend like recommending to move forward, because I mean, the paper just wins.
Yeah, there's no way around it. Dutch for me loved it.
Fun. I know it didn't really land for you.
But the paper was better.

(12:35):
That is a speaking of which actually I know what film I know we're pressed for time here,
but actually there is something important about the paper that I need to bring up.
Bring it up. It's available on Netflix.
Someone somewhere got the memo like, oh, shit, people are talking about this movie.
Let's let's go ahead and buy it and put it on Netflix.
You're welcome, Ron Howard. I did this for you.

(12:57):
Oh, I think I know who's winning this one.
What's next? What's next?
Next up is Freeway versus the Bone Collector.
Oh, damn. That's a tough one.
For you. I'm sorry, man.

(13:17):
Bone Collector wins this one flat out straight up all the way.
Freeway wins. Oh, my God.
Yes. Let's go. Let's go with the story beat first.
You have what happens to Denzel Washington's character, Link, as like,

(13:39):
wow, the character development that he gets before even like the three minute mark of this movie
after the credits. But those credits, by the way, in the story in the credits,
their story in the background, their story in the characters, like every part about this.
You I cared about every single damn character in this movie.

(14:02):
But the way that Angelina Jolie and Denzel brought me in to their characters.
Hardcore, the relationship between Denzel, Queen Latifah and Ed O'Neill, everybody.
I was with it the whole way through. OK.
What do you got? I mean, it's not that I disagree with anything you're saying.

(14:22):
It's just I seem to recall when when we did that episode and we were talking about Freeway,
I seem to recall you having something akin to a transcendental experience when it came to
freeway of all of the the storytelling and filmmaking.
And so what you say, what you were saying is I basically you were saying when I watched this,
I had like a transcendental experience as I was really going in.

(14:46):
And the thing was, I had a hardcore reaction to it.
Yes, this is like that was the thing about this movie was it needs to come with a trigger
warning for people who have like endured like trauma and all that.
But the thing about this, it is a movie for people who have been with or been through trauma.
If you don't have a dark sense of humor, if you haven't lived through a bit of the wringer,

(15:10):
if the shit hasn't hit the fan for you and you have not been one of the ones that learns to step
aside when that happens, this movie is not for you.
The Bone Collector way like the story on that is more universal.
I see what you're saying.
OK.
So, OK, all right.

(15:31):
I concede that.
So I give the Bone Collector the story.
Technical, the technical win.
Oh, do you even have an argument for the freeway over the bone?
No, no, no, I know.
And you know what, it's not fair because we're talking like a 20 million dollar budget difference.
So that's not even a fair fight there.
Let's be honest.
Well, I don't know, because there's going to be some later on on the episode that as

(15:55):
we're talking about it, the indie film, like what they did with what they had beat what
the others did with what they had.
So that is fair.
That is OK.
That's true.
But yeah, no, I agree on a very technical side.
Yes, it's obviously the Bone Collector reign rings around freeway as much as I hate to

(16:16):
admit it.
But it is true.
Yes.
Just is what it is.
Yep.
But but but but.
For the dark sense of humor for the people that really like that have that morbid bit
that I've been through that I still recommend freeway.
However, for all those same people, I also recommend Bone Collector.

(16:36):
Yeah.
That was a dark week of coverage.
Yeah, it really was.
But it sounds like we don't even need the recommendation tiebreaker because it's a two
for two on Bone Collector.
So it sounds like they're they're the hands down winner on that one, which I do not appreciate
at all because I would have liked to see freeway get a little bit further in this.
It's a good movie.

(16:57):
I lost the first two rounds.
Suck it up, Buttercup.
Next up, it is Briefer Madness versus Master and Commander.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
This one's going to be rough.
This one's going to be rough.
Sure.
So let's just.
Tyson versus Holyfield.

(17:18):
Oh my God.
All right.
So what better story?
I mean, you got to go.
I mean, but there's the thing.
The point of Briefer Madness was that it was a shit story.
That was the entire point of it.
Is that true?
So they did what they meant to do.
Very well, but Master and Commander had a better story.

(17:40):
It just it just did.
It does not matter how much I enjoyed Briefer Madness.
It does not much.
It just doesn't matter.
Master and Commander was too good.
Yeah.
It really was.
Everything about it.
The real fight, the real fight is the technical win because that is the most amazing movie

(18:08):
musical that I have ever seen.
The transitions, how they did everything.
The Mary Sunshine is Mary Sunshine no more.
Yeah.
Single performance.
Oh my God.
That one thing puts it up as the contender for everything in Master and Commander, which
says so much about that scene.

(18:31):
However, Peter Weir directing Master and Commander, this man.
That's the thing.
And I think that's kind of where you got to win it is that as as good as Briefer Madness
was, they had the advantage of shooting on land, and Master and Commander pulled off

(18:54):
everything that it pulled off on the fucking water.
I'm sorry, I hate to say it, but Master and Commander kind of takes it away on that one
too.
There you go.
This round goes to Master and Commander.
And, yeah, I'm betting that one hurt.
Yeah, it really does.

(19:15):
Let's just, let's just go ahead.
Let's do this fight.
All right.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
Better story.
Predestination.
Or grandma's.
Predestination obviously.

(19:36):
The arguably transgender time travel story versus the 40 year old white dude getting
kicked out of his his house because he smokes too much weed and has to go live with his
grandma.
Right.
We care more about predestination.
Yeah.
Easily.
The technical win.

(19:58):
Predestination.
The one we're going to recommend moving forward.
Predestination.
That wasn't even, I mean.
It was practically a wringer almost.
It really was, which just sucks because I actually love grandma's boy, even though I
know you hated it.

(20:18):
But I feel bad because I didn't even get to talk about it.
I didn't get to give it any love.
That wasn't, that wasn't a competition.
That wasn't an argument.
There was nothing there.
That was just rude.
Skeleton key and Willy's Wonderland.
Oh, right.
Yeah, that was my revenge pick.

(20:40):
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How'd that go for you?
I felt really bad about that, man.
Like it haunted me the whole like, like immediately after I told you to watch that movie turned
off the camera and I just went, oh God, he's going to hate me forever.
I'm a bad person.
What have I done?
And yet I made it work.

(21:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Just to rub salt in my wounds.
You rolled with it.
You talked about the movie.
You pointed out all the things that you could like about it.
Like, I know how to yes.
And yeah, you, you really got your, you know, you made sure that I never did anything like
that ever again.
Hardcore.

(21:24):
I met.
Yeah.
I made you wallow in a movie you hated for longer than a movie that you kind of enjoyed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
All right.
Yeah.
Which I found out one of our audience members came through and they dropped a comment like,
have you done the skeleton key?
And then they scrolled down and then they got him like, yes.

(21:45):
Nice.
Nice.
That felt kind of nice.
All right.
The better story.
I'm going to say skeleton key because it has a story.
There's a story in Willy's Wonderland.
It's just really dumb.
I mean, there's, there's, there's really nothing I can really say to really bolster that up

(22:08):
or anything like that.
It was dumb, stupid fun.
That is all that was.
And it wasn't a lot of fun, but it was dumb, stupid fun.
So on the story aspect, Kate Hudson being trapped in a different person's body, all
this stuff, the slave and who do aspects of all this.

(22:32):
Right.
Skeleton key.
Absolutely wins.
The technical wins.
Skeleton key.
Skeleton key.
Hands down.
That swamp that the movie was filmed in, that swamp does not exist.
They made that swamp.
They enhance it with CG, everything like that, just to make sure there were no snakes or
gators or anything.
I remember you telling me that when we did that episode.

(22:54):
And I did not believe you when you told me that.
I was like, bullshit.
That was the most beautiful lush swamp I'd ever seen in my life.
There's no way that was fake.
They did fantastic.
You showed me the receipts on that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, story wise, technical win and what we're recommending moving forward.
Skeleton key.
Skeleton key.

(23:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
That there's, there's no argument.
There's no, there's no, that was a real painful couple of weeks for us for that show.
I'm going to have to admit that.
Yes.
The thing that's going to get fun is when we get into the quarterfinals.
Yeah, no, that's, that's going to be, yeah, those are going to be, that's where, that's

(23:37):
where these are going to start getting a little bit longer and actually worth watching.
Ooh, this one actually might be, this one might be a little tough actually.
What do we got?
We got Tombstone versus there's something about Mary.
Oh, okay.
All right.

(23:57):
We might have some discussion on that.
All right.
So story wise, character wise, who did you give a shit about in Tombstone?
Like, not, not, not who did you like?
Who did you care about?
Like, I know you cared about Maddie Earp.
Maddie Earp and yeah, I remember.

(24:17):
Yeah.
Maddie Earp got done dirty in that movie for sure.
Um, Virgil Earp also, you know.
Even though historically speaking, he wasn't the oldest, but he was acting like the older
brother in this.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, I kind of felt for him.
Um, well, I don't know if he was historically older or younger.
I don't know.

(24:37):
Okay.
Uh, I'd seem to remember some about that in like another documentary that I saw or something
like that.
They mentioned that he was actually like the middle kid or something.
I may be remembering wrong.
That's the point.
You know?
Um, but, uh, I mean, but that's a tough comparison because we are literally talking about like,
you know, how do we compare like a adaptation to historical events as a story?

(25:03):
Like then we can't really say what do we think about the story as much as how do we feel
the story of real events?
Well, that's why, like, that's where I'm going to put that into the technical aspect.
Okay.
Okay.
That is like that.
I mean, they did the Western, but they did the Western perfect.
They did.
Right.
Obviously.
But going up against the Farrelly brothers, they did the comedy perfect.
So that's a bit of a battle.

(25:25):
Story wise though, I was rooting for Ted, cared about Mary.
There were times that I even rooted for the side characters.
Like I was invested, like they did a good job of actually getting me invested.
I felt risk for some of them.
Okay.
Tombstone?
I liked the characters, never really cared about them though.

(25:49):
That's the, that's kind of the difference.
Like everything Val Kilmer said, loved it to pieces.
How they demonstrated the friendship between Earp and, oh God.
Holiday.
Holiday.
Yeah.
How they showed their friendship and their relationship.
Perfect.
But I didn't care about them.

(26:14):
I see what you're saying.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
I feel you there.
So I think I got to give that to, there's something about Mary.
Yeah.
You know what?
I'm going to have to agree.
Yeah.
Now the technical aspect, who did a more perfect job?
Did they do a more perfect Western or did they do a more perfect comedy?
I would say they did a more perfect Western because-

(26:36):
I would agree.
The Fairly Brothers comedy is very genre specific in that a lot of their gags tend to be, how
do I put this?
I don't know.
They're bad on purpose.
Oh, like very in your face, like the slapstick nature?

(27:00):
Yeah.
The slapstick nature of it.
They do, they break a lot of the technical rules in order, you know, and so, I mean,
it's kind of tough call of, are they just, are they bad at things technically, but it
works because of their style of comedy or are they just really, really good at doing
that kind of bad comedy?
I'd say they're really, really good at it because of how consistently they've done

(27:23):
it.
That is, that is a good argument.
Yes.
Okay.
So, I'm just back into kind of equal territory here because they were kind of technically
perfect in their genres then.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is, yeah, that is kind of a toss up.
And which one would I recommend?
I still like, which one I would recommend more.

(27:44):
I still really don't know because there's something about Mary that is a perfect comedy
demonstrating the comedy of that era.
Yeah.
If you are trying to show somebody something, you know what?
No, it's Tombstone.
It's flat out Tombstone because Tombstone, you don't need a reason.

(28:04):
You don't need a specific point.
That's the thing.
That's what I was going to say is I was going to say Tombstone because Tombstone doesn't
require you to sit next to the portrait and watching it and going saying, you have to
understand that back in the nineties, like it's not required for Tombstone.
No, okay.
I don't think that's required for the, I really don't think that's required for there's something
about Mary.
I kind of think it is.

(28:25):
I was alive back then, so I really can't say.
And I am not ready to advise my niece or nephew to watch this because neither of them have
even reached 15 years old yet.
So yeah, well, I'll have to wait another decade to see how that really plays out.

(28:45):
But here's the thing.
You got to be at a bare minimum 15 for this movie for sure.
Yeah.
Easily.
Yeah.
So I tie, but recommending Tombstone, Tombstone is going to take it for everybody who has
joined us.
I mean, drop a comment.
Which one of these would you actually prefer more as we're going through the full series?

(29:08):
Let us know if you agree, disagree.
Let me know how bad you think my beard is.
Which one of us do you think is so completely off base?
I imagine it's probably, probably me.
Most people have issues with my art film, Hoity Toity-ness.
So you know, but I stand by it.
That was a great thing to say as a prepping for this next one, because yeah, didn't have

(29:36):
the most popular point of view on this one, Doc.
Oh, we're there.
We are there.
You know what?
I think my opinion has already been expressed.
I'm just going to sit back and just let me know.
You know what?
What's the, what's the fun of that?
What's the fun of that?
No, I'm going to, I'm going to just go ahead and repeat everything I said before.

(30:01):
Not verbatim because I know I said a lot, but I'm-
You had a lot to say.
And the whole time I was just sitting there going, oh God, I'm the one in charge of the
comment section.
So let's not totally replay that because we have more viewers now, more commenters.

(30:21):
I'll try to be a little more-
I don't have a prescription of Xanax or Ozymphic or like, wait a minute.
One of those, neither of those are for depression.
I don't know my drugs.
No, no.
Isn't Xanax like an antidepressant or a tranquilizer?
It's an anti-anxiety.

(30:41):
It's a tranquilizer.
That's it.
Yeah.
There you go.
Okay.
All right.
So next round, Requiem for a Dream versus Don't Think Twice.
Now, who did you care about more between these two?
So that's the thing.
I know you hated this movie, but did you care about them?

(31:02):
No.
You care about the mom?
No.
You didn't even care about the mom.
No.
Oh, she broke my heart, man.
What happened to her?
Every character-
There were no characters in this movie.
They were only caricatures.
They were one-dimensional.
Yeah.
But that was the point to tell the four different ways that, like the four most common ways

(31:23):
that people go down this path and wind up as addicts and what can happen.
That was the point of it, which-
He nailed it.
Like, he did, like what he was doing as he was going through.
He told that story and yeah, I know you didn't like the editing style.

(31:44):
I know you didn't like all that stuff, but a lot of that was done on purpose to give
the audience the sense of anxiety that they were meant to have when they did that junkie
scene in the market.
No, I think he said that after the fact because he was bad at editing and so he came up with
a reason to justify it afterwards.
Okay, that's just you drinking hater-rate.

(32:07):
It did work.
It didn't land on you, but for millions of other people, it did land.
So I mean, when he went through and he did that supermarket scene with all like real
junkies, people shooting up, everything like that was real.
He went for authenticity on the technical aspect.

(32:28):
How can you say don't think twice one over Requiem?
Because it didn't give me a headache to watch.
But that was what Requiem's like.
See, that's the thing.
You don't like what the film intended to do because what it intended to do, it worked
on you.
You just didn't like it.

(32:50):
So that's the thing.
But because it did work on you, I have to give it that technical win because even though
you didn't like it, it did what it was supposed to be.
I do not believe for one second he intended to do that.
I think he really was just shitty at his job.
And when you compare it with everything else that he that he's done, it doesn't look like
anything.
I've only seen one other movie that he did, and that was Pie, which he shot in black and

(33:14):
white because black and white so fucking deep.
So I'm sorry.
He is I said it before and I will say it again.
He is a film school fraud who makes movies that he as a stupid person thinks smart people
will like.
See, you've only seen two of his movies, though.

(33:38):
So to have that and I'm not so not sold on that's the thing is like it doesn't make the
two movies of his that I've seen do not make me want to watch any more of a shit at all.
And that and that is fair.
I think that like how harsh you are on that.
I think that's way too fucking harsh.
There's no way that I would ever put I probably did what he intended to do.

(33:59):
And like it's like every time that he has sat down with a goal to make a film, he has
made the film that he wanted to make.
Nobody has ever said anything otherwise.
You go in that like they all say like his vision, what winds up on the screen is what
he wanted to have happen.
So what you're saying, there is zero evidence towards that, except that you just hate the

(34:23):
guy.
And there's tons of evidence to say that that is just his film style.
You told me yourself, that's the funny thing is like this was not something that I had
to go find out about or did any research on.
You brought it up yourself as a fun fact about this movie.
Well, he literally purchased another director's scene for this movie from an anime.

(34:46):
He has no creativity.
He had to buy the right.
He had to buy the rice.
No, that was the escape scene that Marlon Waynes when he was coming out of that, like
he wanted to do.
Because it was the bathtub scene.
You told me it was the scene.
You said it was the scene when Jennifer Connelly was in the bathtub.
Oh, yeah, because it was it was a shot for shot.

(35:07):
Oh, get the fuck out of here, doc.
Just because you don't like the homage does not make it a problem.
How many directors have gone through and done homages and gotten rights and gotten ability
to do stuff for Hitchcock, for the Tarantino, for all of these people to make sure that
it's not a problem for them?

(35:28):
That is standard practice to make sure that your shit doesn't get fucked because you're
paying homage to something.
It's one way you can hate this one thing on a standard practice.
No, no, no, it's not.
It's not that I hate him on a standard practice.
It's because it wasn't an homage.
He just wanted to use that shot because he couldn't come up with his own.
He gave credit to it.

(35:50):
Where specifically said, how do you think I got the fun fact?
He said that he was doing it for that.
That literally was an homage.
If he would not have said that, I would never have known that.
Was it another movie about drug addiction?
I never saw the anime.
I don't know.
See, that's the thing is like, I don't know.

(36:11):
That's the thing is like, how is it an homage if you don't even know what it's referencing?
It's one thing if you're doing.
I don't.
He does.
OK.
Like, that's the thing.
Like, a lot of this is like, it just does not seem it just does not seem fair.
All he wanted to do because all he wanted to do.
Well, the thing is, you're not hating on the film.
You're hating on Aronofsky.

(36:32):
You're talking wild shit about a guy you've only seen two films of, and they were two
of his earliest films.
So like that, that like there's no way that there's just no way.
It basically basically comes down to this.
All right.
So many people have told me that I had to see this movie because it was so great.

(36:52):
And it was shit.
And I feel like and I know the last thing I want to do, the last thing I have ever wanted
to be in the world, let alone on the Internet, is the guy who sits here and tells everybody
that the thing that they love is shit.
OK.
There's already plenty of guys who do that.
And I question their motives most of the time.
But I'm sorry.

(37:13):
This movie was in fact shit.
And I was no one was more surprised than I was because I have very close friends, people
whose opinions I have respected for years, tell me that I had to see this movie because
it was great.
And when I sat down and watched it, I hated every single frame of it.
It was garbage.
And I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many people love this.

(37:37):
And that's kind of thing, man.
So many of us cannot because the thing is you hate his style.
You do not like some of the things that he did.
But the rest of us like it.
So that's the thing.
It's your opinion.
It is straight up your opinion.
And you are throwing it out there like it's factual that this guy fucking sucks.

(38:00):
And that's the thing.
On a technical aspect, you are way not approaching this objectively.
Like, this is like your personal opinion on this.
I get that.
And I get that you wouldn't recommend this.
But the thing is, I would recommend this a million times over.
Don't Think Twice because I think outside of performers, that movie is not going to

(38:21):
land.
I mean, it's true.
It would be tough for Don't Think Twice to resonate with anyone that isn't in the performance
arts in some way.
That is true.
And Requiem for a Dream?
I mean, oh my God, today's day and age.
Who the hell doesn't like is not connected to a family member, a friend, former friend,

(38:45):
co-worker, somebody who has gone through one of these four stories.
I still can't though, man.
That's the thing.
And that's the thing.
That is you as a personal place.
But objectively speaking, on a technical aspect and with the story aspect, the only character

(39:06):
that I cared about at all in Don't Think Twice was Jillian Jacobs' character.
Okay.
That was it.
I mean, and the thing was, they were all really shitty people for no reason except for Keegan
Michael Key.
I felt bad for him.
And I just felt bad for him the whole time because he was doing his thing and he tried
to bring his buddies into it and they all just hated him for it.

(39:29):
That was just a bunch of shitty people who somehow wound up being friends at the end,
kind of.
Requiem?
But I wanted every one of those characters to make a different decision, like, just don't
do this.
Come on, man.
I was actively rooting for them to make the exact opposite decisions.

(39:50):
So the anxiety that I felt when I was rooting for them, just hoping that they were doing
this, I cared more about them.
I was hoping they were going to do things differently.
And in the technical aspect, I know you hate it.
Ooh, I know you hate it.
Yeah.
I think it wins.
I don't.
I...
Technically, no.
I mean, I'm going to have to disagree there because technically speaking, don't think

(40:13):
Twice was watchable.
I mean, that's as simple as that.
But that's a personal opinion.
That's the problem.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Oh, it definitely is.
Requiem for a Dream is on the list of 1001 movies that you must see before you die.
So very clearly, more people think it's watchable than don't.

(40:34):
Like that is on the same list as Dolly Parton, 95, like 9 to 5, Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda,
all that.
That is on the same list.
Enough people from enough walks of life have all agreed that that is a fantastic film.
It is not a comfortable one.
I do not.
For the life of me, I do not understand it.

(40:56):
I feel like it failed in every way.
In every way it failed.
I do not get it.
I don't get it.
And that's the thing.
You don't get it.
But I'm telling you, like the message that it was meant to put out, it landed to all
the people that this movie personally connects to.

(41:18):
Everything it set out to do, it did.
The worst part about allowing it to win means we're going to have to talk about it again
in the quarterfinals.
And I don't want to do that.
I know.
Hey, man, that's how it goes.
You're not going to want to like I you think I wanted to give up on a lowdown dirty shame
out of here.

(41:38):
But it just I just said I concede.
And you know what?
I can I can respect how much of a struggle that was.
I really can.
I knew it was going to be one.
What?
What's next?
Next round.
The Burbs versus Encino Man.
Oh, man.

(41:59):
Boy, that was, I believe, the first episode in which we both agreed that both movies were
not must sees.
Correct.
Neither and neither of us were happy about that.
Correct.
Because we both enjoyed both movies.
We had a lot of fun talking about both of them.
Zero ability to actually say this is like you have to see this.

(42:23):
Right.
And the way that I could say like that Encino Man is a must see is, hey, Brendan Fraser's
first movie.
Yeah.
If you if you are a Brendan Fraser fan, it is definitely enjoyable.
And but yeah, other than that, yeah, it's it's kind of one of those like, you know,
you're probably you're probably better off watching The Mummy for the 15th time instead,

(42:46):
you know.
True.
But it still has it has moments.
You know what?
When you were talking about Stranger Things and I say that there is no movie that Sean
Astin is the bad guy.
I forgot about Encino Man because man, was he a shit in that movie?
Yeah.
No, that was the thing that really blew me away was like right off the bat.
We're supposed this is supposed to be our protagonist.

(43:07):
We're rooting for this guy.
He is such a dick.
Yeah, that didn't really that really didn't stand the test of time.
Yeah.
Let's get right into it.
All right.
Story wise, Urbs versus Encino Man.
I mean, what did you care about in the burbs?
They were all entertaining.
They were all entertaining.
And you do kind of care about Tom Hanks's character because, yeah, he's making bad decisions,

(43:29):
but you can kind of also see where he's not so much the victim, but he is victimizing
himself.
So you kind of feel sorry for him because of him.
I think I think story and character wise, I'm going to I'm going to say and I know it
seems kind of unfair considering we just lambasted Sean Austin's character, but I think I'm going

(43:52):
to go with the burbs on this one because the burbs had a sort of a story in that it was
a beginning and an end and a resolution and the climax and all that Encino Man was kind
of more a series of events.
You know, it was it was a setup and then it just ran away with the setup.

(44:14):
There was no real big resolution or climax or any.
There was kind of a climax, but not really.
But here's the thing about Encino Man.
You may not have cared about the supposed main character, main character, right?
But you never stopped caring about Link.
No, yes.
Brendan Fraser's character definitely, you know, especially when we get to that scene

(44:37):
when they take him to the natural history museum and it dawns.
That's when he realizes for the first time what's happened to him.
Like that was for like I remember saying that in the burbs that there's no moment in the
burbs that rips your heart like, no, that is true.
Yeah, that's a that's a yeah.
But yeah, it was.
I remember we talked about that at the time about how a weirdly deep and emotional scene

(45:01):
that was for such an otherwise dumb movie, you know?
Yeah, no, like and that was the thing.
Fraser like he brought solid acting right away.
Like he did leave it all out on the table.
Like when they told him like, you don't like this guy and like he gave him that look, Fraser
brought it.
And I got to give that.

(45:22):
So I think story wise, I want to give it to Encino Man because I actually cared about
Link and I cared about Stoney.
Even though I didn't care like about the main character the way that movie wanted me to,
I did care about those two.
But at the same time, we had a much more, you know, the burbs had a much more rich cast

(45:43):
of characters.
Maybe you didn't care about them as much, but they had more like continuing depth to
them.
You had, you know, the neighbors that everyone's obsessed with that just turn out to be a constant
onion.
Every time you appeal, there's more shit underneath there.
You've got, you know, we're going to not include Corey Feldman.

(46:03):
He was clearly added in after the fact.
He was not originally part of the script.
We know we settled on that.
But maybe, maybe even even Robert Picardo as the garbage man.
Like I mean, come on.
Well, okay.
That's just great cameos.
That's just great.
I mean, they did a great job with the cameos, but the actual, you know what?

(46:24):
The story of the burbs was all about the neighbors and the intrigue and they did a good job with
the intrigue.
I had questions and it stayed all the way through to the end.
And yes, I wanted that movie to end like five, 10 minutes earlier.
So it didn't have the over the top cartoon ending, but I'm giving that to the burbs.
You're right.

(46:44):
You're right.
I'll give you that one.
The technical aspect.
Burbs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They actually had like that special effects.
Yeah.
They have the miniature.
They had that really nice miniature shot at the very beginning and the car chase.
Yeah.
That I wish wasn't in the movie.

(47:05):
Right.
Exactly.
But was still technically pretty good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I got to give it that.
And yeah, Encino Man had the car with the two wheel thing that happened in every third
movie back then.
And it was fun.
And it was okay.
Yeah.
But yeah, okay.
Yeah.
No, the burbs.
Okay.
Two out of three.

(47:25):
Why don't we just give it to the burbs then?
Okay.
All right.
And moving on.
I mean, we both know what is gonna win out of this one.
But you know what?
It's definitely-
Do we really wanna-
We said we're doing it.
We gotta do it.
Like-
Again, again, I'm so sorry.

(47:47):
I didn't mean to.
That was not intentional.
I swear I forgot.
Oof.
It was, uh.
This was a thing.
Love you guys.
Appreciate you guys.
Doc, how many Dr. Peppers is that?
This one's a root beer because I need to cut back on my caffeine.
But I'm not giving up the sugar.

(48:08):
What's wrong with water, man?
Dude, do not get me started on water.
All right?
All right.
Whatever.
Whatever.
Your ass doesn't live in Flint, Michigan, so you're fine.
All right.
No water, thank you.
Fish make love in it.
That's the flavor.
Anyway.

(48:29):
All right.
Secondhand lions versus exesense.
Secondhand.
God damn.
That is not even fair.
Story wise, who did we care about?
We cared about, I'm forgetting their names, but the brothers.
The McCann brothers.
The McCann brothers, yeah.

(48:50):
Michael Caine and Robert Duvall.
Yeah.
And we weirdly, even though they didn't want us to, we gave a shit about them right away.
It was weird.
Oh my God.
This move, like secondhand lions is damn near a perfect move.
Really, really is.
Yeah.

(49:10):
The technical aspect.
Exesense roast me out, but I don't know if I can give it a technical win.
That's the thing.
Well, I think because yeah, I mean, that's the thing, you got to give credit for the
fact that they pulled off what they intended to there with their gross props and all that.
But here's the thing about secondhand lions.

(49:32):
Secondhand lions wasn't just a technical perfection on it.
It was a technical perfection of two separate genres.
You had your real world and the fantasy storytelling world, and they both merged together perfectly.
It's next to impossible.
And they pulled that off.
So that goes to secondhand lions again.

(49:53):
So.
Yeah.
And I, as far as recommendations go, you have to be a very particular kind of person
for me to recommend Existence to you.
So let's just like, yeah, I'm giving that to secondhand lions.
If you're in a very, very dark place, I might suggest.
There you go.
Sure, like, you know what, man, you need to you need to think about how dark life could

(50:18):
get.
Mm hmm.
I got it.
This is why we need a producer and somebody just sitting off on the side and hooking us
up with all the button pressing, doing all this stuff ahead of time.
This is how you get to the one percent, folks.
I can read it.
All right.

(50:39):
So this round, one night at McCool's versus thank you for smoking.
Oh, oh, oh, that's going to be that's going to be tough.
That's going to be tough because one night at McCool's is practically perfect in my eyes.
Thank you for smoking was also incredible.
I mean, I think I mean, I like right off the top of my head, I'm going to say that for

(51:04):
story wise, I'm given to one night at McCool's.
Yeah, I got to agree because who did we really care about?
And thank you for smoking.
That's the thing.
And thank you for smoking.
Yeah.
And they well, we did talk about the fact that everyone was an antagonist in this movie.
There were no protagonists.
And yeah.
And again, like I mentioned this before, when, you know, with Encino Man, like this was a

(51:31):
series of events.
There was no real climax and even they even kind of teased that climax was coming and
didn't, you know.
Yeah.
So yeah, like this like this was kind of a sort of a pseudo oral history of the downfall
of the tobacco industry.
Not really.

(51:51):
It kind of was a backdrop to this like, just sort of weird character study of this asshole
for hire.
Just puts it in the running for the technical win.
That's the thing.
Technical was really pulled everything off.
Yeah, but oh my god, can you name a single thing that Thank You for Smoking or One Night

(52:11):
at McCool's failed on?
Even the actors acting differently from the different perspectives of the different stories
being told using the concept of the unreliable narrator.
Right, yeah.
Oh my god.
And I think that's kind of where why I'm actually still leaning towards Thank You for Smoking

(52:31):
because where One Night at McCool's did technically do everything perfect technically, Thank You
for Smoking made a lot of bizarre choices in their visuals and their sounds and their
editing and it all came off super smooth and worked really well.
They weren't taking a lot of like, they took some risks with One Night at McCool's, but

(52:55):
not nearly as many as Thank You for Smoking did.
And they kind of both came off as easy to get through.
And so I think that means the win goes to Thank You for Smoking as far as the technical
side goes because they gave themselves a bigger heft on that one.
I can see where you're coming from on that.
And I think I'm definitely inclined to agree with you there.

(53:18):
So that being comes down to which one would you recommend?
I don't know.
That one really comes down to who I'm talking to.
That really does.
Like those are two.
A political person?
Thank You for Smoking.
Yeah, 100%.
Anybody else?
Yeah.
You know what?
I think the anybody else kind of pushes One Night at McCool's to be a little more universal.

(53:43):
That's the thing.
So there's nobody I wouldn't recommend One Night at McCool's to, but I would be very
careful at who I'd recommend Thank You for Smoking to.
Right.
So yeah.
Okay.
So One Night at McCool's wins that one.
All right.
That was unexpected.
Yeah, really.
I really thought One Thank You for Smoking was gonna run away with that.
Yeah, I honestly that's really where I thought I was coming from on that one too.

(54:07):
Ooh, I don't like this one.
What's next?
Well, you don't like it either.
Come on.
Hit me with it.
It's toys versus drowning Mona.
Oh, no, don't make me choose.
I actually in preparation for today since we took a break for the last couple weeks

(54:32):
to show our back catalog, I actually took a moment to go and watch some of our YouTube
clips in order to get myself back in the mindset of doing the show.
And the ones I focused on were our drowning Mona episodes.
And I kind of I almost wanted to go watch the movie again, just listening to us talk

(54:55):
about it, which is weird because that was literally like how I ended the show saying
I couldn't recommend it because as much as I loved it, I couldn't imagine sitting down
to watch it again.
It's not it was a great movie.
I loved it.
I enjoyed it, but I really don't see myself taking the extra time to want to sit down
and watch it again.

(55:16):
And so that's why I don't think I could recommend it as a must see because it's not that.
But then after watching our clips and thinking about it again, now I do.
I do kind of want to see it again.
So what about toys?
Toys that's been true for toys forever.
So that's kind of where where I'm in trouble here.

(55:38):
So let's let's get into it.
So let's get into the questions.
Who did you care about in drowning Mona more than toys?
Because I did care about the betrayal that LL Cool J dealt with.
I did care about the brother.
I did care about Robin Williams character, both of the Robins.
Yeah.
And oh my God, Joan Cusack.

(55:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh God.
Yeah.
See, that's the thing.
Like I loved every character drowning Mona.
I hated every character.
I was very entertained by all of them.
You loved hating them.
Yeah.
But I mean, maybe Neve Campbell.
Maybe maybe I cared about her.
Yeah.
Loved Ned Campbell.
Yes, that's true.

(56:20):
Her character was amazing.
Was definitely written for her.
Yeah.
I think I'm I think I'm going to give this like the story wise, I think I'm going to
give that over to toys because I actually cared about the characters.
I cared about what was going to happen.
I was actually worried about what was going to happen.
And it felt like there were more stakes too, because we're talking about a toy company

(56:41):
that's supposed to be for making, you know, bringing happiness to children and is instead
using children to create weapons of war, which is there was no happening.
Like there was like the message in there, the story, like there was more to toys.
There was more investment emotionally in that one.
Yes.
So I'm going to agree on that one.
Yes.
I think that belongs with drowning.

(57:05):
Really?
You think so?
With how well that story was weaved together.
Look at all the things that.
OK, yeah, we got somebody pitching in.
I can't help it.
I lean towards Robin Williams.
We all do.
Yeah.
Look.
Yeah.
But in drowning Mona, the way they weave that story together, the way they put the

(57:26):
investigation and how Danny DeVito discovered it, the new information, the fact that the
killer was there the entire time.
Right.
I think.
But do you remember the last week, like how they go?
Here's the thing.
Remember, there was one thing about that, that that remember the chick who got in the

(57:46):
fight at the bar that was supposed to be.
Oh, yeah.
The black lady.
Yeah.
That was supposed to be Casey Affleck's alibi.
And then she literally didn't exist in the movie other than to be introduced at the beginning
for the what are you going to do?
Hit me joke.
And then finally he he happens to run into her as she's changing a tire and and says,

(58:09):
hey, did you see him there?
And she's like, no, I didn't see him.
He didn't show up.
And then that like other than that one, like, scene that she's in, she's not in the rest
of the movie.
And so much pivots on that.
And I remember you complaining about that at the time.
So unfortunately, that is kind of a technical break in the story right there.
Well, no matter what, Toys was going to win this round.

(58:32):
I just wanted to get a very Mona little something.
But no, I agree.
Yeah.
But yeah.
But drowning money.
I love it, though, man.
Like, yeah.
Like, that's the thing.
I'll recommend drowning Mona to anybody, but I'll recommend toys to anybody.
Yeah, for sure.
That is.
And I'll recommend toys over drowning Mona.

(58:52):
Yeah, that that's really just how it happens.
Next round, Reagan Hart versus American movie.
Oh, Jesus.
That's mean.
Yeah, that's mean.
These are two.
You cannot compare these movies.
These are so wildly different movies.

(59:12):
And that's why we're not really comparing them.
I guess.
However, who did you like?
Well, did you first of all, OK, set aside from the the the chubby buddy with the mustache.
Yeah, he is the only dude I cared about in the entire thing.
I didn't really care about him.
I just felt bad for him.
I'm conceding this one.
OK, I know.

(59:34):
I know that Dragonheart had the better story because it had a story for starters.
And yeah, like I told you, like the reason why this movie stuck with me so hard over
the years after seeing it in theater and it haunted my my nightmares for the next 20 years
was because of how much I fucking hated Mark Borchardt.

(59:56):
Like I know I know that that, you know, and I mean, here's the thing.
I know I shit talked Dragonheart a lot when we did the show, but I'm going to tell you,
I can tell you right up front.
Yes, I know it wins this round.
It is it is the better story.
It is the better technical.
It is.
But I still want to give it.

(01:00:16):
It's no, but it's OK.
Fine.
Fine.
Like in Dragonheart, you cared about what happened to Aynan.
You were sad about what happened to Aynan.
You cared about Dennis Quaid's character and Kira.
Was that her name?
Kara?
She's Diz.
She's Diz.
Yeah, that's the thing.

(01:00:36):
I only saw her as Diz.
We all fell in love with her as Diz.
And that is just that is just how that happened.
Yeah.
I cared about the villagers.
I cared about the.
Oh my God, the Queen.
Yeah, like out of nowhere, we really gave a shit about her.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
So yeah.
Then on the technically technical side and then on the technical aspect.

(01:01:01):
Yeah.
Very clearly, Dragonheart.
Oh, yeah.
One.
I mean, obviously, I mean, what I'm what I'm going to recommend, I don't know who I would
recommend American movie to.
Other movie nerds.
That would pretty much be it.
Yeah, that's it.
Yep.
That's OK.
OK.
Yep.
Dragonheart is driving this one and we got a comment.

(01:01:22):
I prefer Sean Connery as a dragon over serial killers.
Thank you.
That is that is that is a great comment, Cinder Lily.
I do agree as well.
We did not confirm that Mark Borchardt was a serial killer.
We only theorized it.
I'm standing by it.
The guy scares me.

(01:01:43):
I know he's still out there.
I know he's out doing podcasts and everything like that.
And if he ever does agree to come on to ours, if we ever decide to invite him on to ours,
it will be over video.
Oh, oh, another one.
Hmm.
God, I think this is just a slam dunk for me, I feel.

(01:02:07):
But give it just a second and we'll get into it.
All right, next round is the borrowers versus Sword of Trust.
Oh, this is not a slam dunk.
How dare you slam dunk?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Sword of Truth.
Let's go.
OK, let's go.
OK, let's just get the technical win out of the way.

(01:02:29):
Borrowers.
Are you kidding me?
I mean, sure.
OK, they had all those really good special effects and props and costumes and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Incredible acting and great moments, incredible charm from all the characters.
The acting was really good in Sword of Truth too, OK?
That's a match up right there.
Doc, you don't even know the name of the movie.

(01:02:49):
Because it's a stupid name!
It should have been called Sword of Truth, not Sword of Trust.
Why did they call it Sword of Trust?
I don't understand.
Was that just to fuck with us?
I completely agree with you.
That is a dumb name.
It is the wrong name.
They literally should have called it the Sword of Truth.

(01:03:09):
Completely agree.
But other than that, it's a phenomenal flick, OK?
A lot of it was improv.
So here's the thing.
The only reason why I would ever suggest the Sword of Trust is if you were a big fan of
any of these actors or you're a filmmaker trying to understand filmmakers.

(01:03:32):
OK, I can see that.
Because this was her dying film and this was what she wanted.
Yes.
There was that.
However, I cared about the borrowers.
I wanted to know more about their world.
I wanted to know more about everything that came with it.

(01:03:53):
When I left that, I was satisfied with what I saw, but I wanted more.
Now, you see, here's the thing.
There is more to that also, because that's one of the things that I think was important
about Sword of Trust was the fact that it was, to a certain degree, also kind of this
like, I mean, granted, it wasn't quite a dialogue, but there was the representation

(01:04:21):
of like what I always come back to when it is when they're at the farm and they've got
those two skinhead guys there and Mark Maron remembers the other one.
He's like, I remember when you were a kid, when you came into my shop and, you know,
and your your dad was a drunk and slapped you around and you stole my shit.

(01:04:44):
And then your mom came in and she would come back the next day and and like return what
you stole or pay me for it or something like that.
And just there in the way he just very sincerely says to the guy, why did you take after the
shitty one?
You know, like it is like.
OK, yeah.
So this references a story I would care about more, but it didn't show me a story I would

(01:05:08):
care about more.
The only story that I actually did kind of care about was Mark Maron and the woman who
directed it.
And she played Deirdre.
Deirdre.
That's right.
Yeah.
No, my point, my little backstory.
Yeah.
But it was it was the humanization of that's the thing, especially nowadays when we when

(01:05:30):
we, you know, when we think about like those, you know, flyover state, you know, your conspiracy
theory appellation types, you know, you know, what is it?
People who people who will sit there and say, you know, the the South actually won the war
like.
It didn't say until you mentioned the South, I'm like, you write my hometown.

(01:05:55):
Why are you talking about people, man?
Right.
Yeah.
But no, this thing is like it was without without apologizing for them, without being
apologists for it.
It humanized them.
It kind of made their story less of a villain story and more of just kind of another tragedy

(01:06:18):
and kind of like we don't need to be afraid of them.
We don't need to hate them.
We kind of we just got to realize that they just kind of need a little extra help, too.
It was a very humanizing story, even for what is seen as especially today's political climate
as a very villainous character.
You see what I'm saying?
OK, I feel it was important because it was so in the background.

(01:06:40):
I don't want to I can't give that to the movie because that's not what the movie was about.
Like you just referenced two different things that happened as very subtle side things that
just the characters referenced, but that is not what the movie was about.
I mean, I guess that's true.
So very I mean, I feel like you're going to agree with me on this one very clearly.

(01:07:00):
The borrowers kind of went on this one, but I did want to give the sort of the sort of
trust a little bit.
I did want to give you a little bit of time to talk about it because it really it's that's
what I mean.
I do love this movie.
It is a really good movie and I cannot stress enough how much people should see this.
Yeah, technically, you're right, the borrower's does win on the on the on the merits of such.

(01:07:24):
But he's man pout a little more.
All right.
This is going to be fun.
Independence Day v the birdcage.
Oh, damn.
Oh, damn.
Oh, because the reason this is so hard.
Well, these were both blockbuster flicks.

(01:07:49):
That's the thing is like this.
This was kind of a step off of our usual thing.
We were we normally go for lesser known forgotten movies that we want to bring up Birdcage and
Independence Day are still going strong 30 years later.
Almost everybody has seen these.
I mean, you keep going back to them.

(01:08:10):
And as time goes on and the world continues to get gayer, the birdcage ain't going nowhere.
No, it is not.
Although that more and more people see Val as the villain of the movie, though, as time
goes by, is the villain of that movie.
You're in simple.
He just was.
OK, story wise, who did we care about more?

(01:08:34):
The birdcage.
We got Robin Williams, Nathan Lane and oh, my God, you care about Nathan Lane.
Absolutely.
One hundred percent.
You do kind of care about Robin.
But I mean, but but you're more empathizing with Robin.
You don't really, really care about him.
You like you really care about Nathan Lane.
That's the thing.
And who don't you care about?

(01:08:57):
I kind of don't care about Will Smith's kid in that one.
But even that's just kind of like that's only because I mean, not like a lot.
That's there is at no point in my life.
Get this kid off the screen.
But if I had to if I had to go like, who could this movie have been just fine if they were
cut out?
It would have been the kid.
I get where they got him there.

(01:09:18):
He didn't really offer anything more to the story than the stakes of his mom.
Right exactly.
Like basically what like like a lot of complaints on women are only used as like revenge plots
and stuff like that.
Basically, yeah, it was only used as right.
It was kind of it was kind of the shared stakes because for Will Smith's character, the whole
point was that this was going to be his new family.

(01:09:40):
He was going to ask her to marry him.
He was going to be his dad.
And so it was kind of like a unified like, like shared motivations and stakes between
him.
Excuse me, between him and the mom.
But yeah, other than being that placeholder for those stakes, the kid didn't really have
anything to contribute.
OK, OK.
Well, that that was a side question that but that is nitpicking.

(01:10:03):
But I did ask.
So that is on me.
Yes.
Oh.
Did you hear that?
No, what happened?
Sounded like a bird came like was in like coming out of my lungs.
That was like the craziest wheeze.
I need to drink more water, man.
This is nuts.
Did you care more about the characters in the birdcage or the Independence Day?

(01:10:27):
I'm actually going to say birdcage on that one.
Partly because and I'm going to say that's on a technicality because there were fewer
characters.
It was easier to get deeper in all of them.
So I will give you that.
OK.
Yeah.
And I will agree with you because as much as I cared about Nathan Lane, I cared about
Nathan Lane more than everybody combined in Independence Day, which is where I was going

(01:10:52):
with that question.
Yeah.
It really went down a direction I wasn't expecting.
Technical win.
Technical win.
Independence Day.
Yeah.
Yep.
I mean, it's an unfair fight considering everything that was in there.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that means so.
Yeah.
I mean, the only reason that Nathan Lane was able to pass off as a woman was because neither

(01:11:16):
of them were wearing their glasses.
I'm not saying that drag doesn't get confusing.
I'm not saying that like they really pulled it off.
Right.
I'm saying Nathan Lane didn't.
And kind of had a five o'clock shadow while he was at it, for that matter.
See, he's got the problem.

(01:11:37):
I shaved, I had professional from a barber today.
I already have a beard.
Some of us, that's just our life is what it is.
We are clean shaven and you can still see the beard.
Oh dude, the army.
That was not a great time for me.
All right.
But which one would we recommend more moving forward?

(01:12:02):
I don't think that that can be that can be quantified.
That's the problem is that that I mean, these are two.
These are two iconic movies for a reason.
To say, I mean, to quote a great quote that's been running around the internet lately, you

(01:12:23):
know, gun to your head, which would you choose?
The gun would go off.
You know, that's.
I haven't heard that.
I do like that.
Okay.
That is a good one.
Here's the thing.
Important.
I would call the birdcage.
Okay.
There are a ton of people I would not recommend the birdcage.

(01:12:45):
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
There are people that the birdcage is specifically making fun of that if I sent them to go watch
it, they would come out of it and go, what the hell, man?
Like, because that whole movie just dogged on me the whole time.
So those would be precisely who I would show it to.
I'm that.
And see, and that's the thing.
It's not about what I would do.

(01:13:07):
It's about who would get like how many people, what would be like for general audiences,
what would be the one that would be able to successfully be recommended the most?
I think Independence Day.
Yeah, I suppose.
Technically that really hurt.
That really hurt.

(01:13:28):
I want you to know how much that hurt because the birdcage was so good.
Yeah.
It's just that speech from Bill Pullman in Independence Day is so good.
There is no speech in the birdcage.
There is no moment in the birdcage that is actually as iconic as that.

(01:13:50):
In fact, the most iconic thing to come out of the birdcage might be that John Wayne moment.
Yes, no, I think that is the iconic moment of that movie.
Yes, I think you're right.
And the amount of people who know the Bill Pullman speech versus the John Wayne walk,
it does not compare.
No, you got a point there.
But let's be clear.
Let's be clear.

(01:14:11):
This was a win by a nose.
This was a photo finish.
Oh, yes.
Yes, that was not an easy decision.
That was not even an easy one to decide which one I wanted to rally behind.
That hurt.
It didn't hurt too bad because I have loved Independence Day my entire life.
All right.

(01:14:31):
Next up is 9 to 5 versus Candyman.
Oh, again.
How do you compare these two?
I know, right?
Yeah, that doesn't seem fair.
Not at all.
I mean, who did you care about more?

(01:14:53):
So let's just go in on that.
Oh, what?
Definitely 9 to 5.
I mean, that's for sure.
Yeah, like hands down.
Like you care about all three of the main characters right off the bat with Candyman.
Well, let's go into Candyman a little bit.
So with what happens to Virginia Madsen in Candyman, like she gets framed.

(01:15:17):
She gets put in that psych hospital.
Like all of these things happen to her, and she got jumped by gang members in a bathroom
that spelled out Candyman and poop on the wall.
I mean, or no, aisle?
So it's for the suite.

(01:15:38):
Right, yeah.
It was like, I mean, don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying that there was anything technically wrong with how the characters of the story
was presented in Candyman.
It's just that with 9 to 5, like you are on...
Because like Cassie Lemmon's character, Bernadette, in Candyman?

(01:16:02):
Oh my god, my heart broke for her immediately a couple minutes later and when she died.
Yeah.
The lady whose child got taken from her?
I mean, yeah, all good points, but these were also like, I don't know.

(01:16:23):
And granted, I realized, and we talked about this at the time, me not being a horror fan,
like I kind of hold all this at arm's length to start with.
Understandable, which is why I kind of, I gotta give Candyman a little bit more of a
fight because I know where you're coming from.

(01:16:43):
But yeah, like I said, they didn't do anything wrong.
I just felt kind of, that's the thing.
I was more in it with 9 to 5 right off the bat.
I mean, the moment, our first character introduction is Jane Fonda coming in on her job, already

(01:17:05):
a deer in headlights just right off the bat and you immediately sympathize with her.
Like first job, I think?
Yeah, it was her first job ever.
She was nervous as hell, explaining her life story to the front door guard who was making
her ID badge, who does not care.

(01:17:26):
But it's an adorable little exposition dump for us.
Okay, so here's where I'm going to combat you because we're going into too much detail.
Okay.
But here's where I'm going to combat you.
We sympathize with all of the characters from 9 to 5 because they have a shitty boss and
everything like that.

(01:17:47):
Right.
So we sympathize and we care them, we're rooting for them.
In Candyman, we're rooting for people's survival, we're rooting for people's innocence, we're
rooting for like, I feel like the stakes are higher in Candyman, so I feel like I cared
more about what was going to happen in that.

(01:18:08):
And in 9 to 5, they straight up kidnapped the dude and abused the guy and everything
like that.
But it was a funny way.
It was funny, it was entertaining, I had a good time watching it.
But the thing was, at a certain point, they kind of became the bad guys and the only reason
that it worked is because it's a comedy.
Right, yes.
Candyman, they never became the bad guys.
They were solid victims the whole way through.

(01:18:31):
No, she literally becomes the bad guy at the end.
Okay, but I call that part of it.
I call that, yeah, but I call like becoming the bad guy.
You were a victim before becoming the bad guy.
Right.
You had to be murdered and set on fire.
I think that's the thing is, I think this feels like Candyman felt like watching the

(01:18:52):
Discovery Channel, you know?
It's like, yeah.
Yeah, the history with the slavery or not.
Yeah.
I don't want to sit here.
I don't want to sit here and watch this wolf chase down and murder this rabbit.
They're spending a lot of time filming this in slow-mo to make it kind of look like the
rabbit might get away, but we all know what show we're watching.

(01:19:18):
Here's the thing, because this is going to go on for way too long.
We have a lot more to get to.
Okay, all right.
Nine to five, one in the technical aspect.
Okay, you think so?
Too many things about it were perfect.
Candyman, I think Candyman won in the fact that the characters, you care about them.

(01:19:41):
I was going to go the other direction from both of those.
Let's see, here's why.
The backstory for Candyman is far superior to anything that is going on in nine to five.
Okay.
Nine to five, more relatable, the story between the black man falling in love with the white
woman and all of this, and Candyman has killed everybody that he's ever seen until he came

(01:20:06):
across Virginia Madsen because she looked like the woman that he used to love.
That is a better story.
Okay.
It's less relatable, but it is better.
Okay, I see where you're going with that.
The technical aspects on nine to five, how it was shot, the music that was used, the
tone of the film, the pacing of the film, every part of it.

(01:20:30):
Holy crap.
Amazing.
See, I was going to go technical for Candyman because of the fucking bees, dude.
Okay.
I mean, how do you overlook the fact that they brought in live bees for those shots?

(01:20:52):
And they bred them specifically to be just around 12 hours old so they wouldn't have
stingers developed yet.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
That's crap.
Crap, crap, crap, crap, crap.
I love, I mean, you're right as far as like a shot for shot, pacing wise and all that
sort of stuff, nine to five did nothing wrong, but they also took no risks.

(01:21:14):
Candyman had live bees, man.
That's true.
Doc, I don't know which one wins.
Yeah.
For what I would recommend, I think I would recommend nine to five because it was like
one of the highest grossing films, the first female led film to break a hundred million
dollars.
Yep.
And I mean, that trio of Parton, Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, I mean, my god.

(01:21:39):
Plus Dabney Coleman.
Plus Dabney Coleman.
I mean, I can't think of another powerhouse of talent.
I get that.
I do.
I really do.
Yeah.
So yeah, we're gonna have to go nine to five on that one.
As the overall winner?
Yeah.
Well, if we're both saying that that's the one to recommend because it was a tie otherwise.

(01:22:02):
Well, that's the thing.
I was coming over to your side with the Candyman.
That was the thing.
It wasn't my movie.
I recommended Candyman, but I was going with nine to five.
But with me coming over to Candyman on that one, now I think that makes it two to one
and that goes Candyman as the winner.
But that's the thing.

(01:22:23):
They're both incredible.
They're both amazing films.
The fact that you enjoyed Candyman, even though it's a horror film, that, holy crap.
Set aside from that, that opening, that opening tracking shot going over in the cityscape,
that was incredibly well done.
The bees, you mentioned the bees from Candyman.
Well, what I'm going to bring up again that I haven't yet on this episode.

(01:22:49):
Yeah.
When she was locked on that hospital bed and she was locked down and Tony Todd was floating
above her, how seamlessly they had him floating in and out of frame and all of that.
Yep.
Oh my God.
That was incredible.
And how eerie it was.
Plus the audio engineering for Candyman.

(01:23:09):
Oh my God.
And this is kind of one of those things where it's like, this was actually a goof, but it's
a goof.
Guys, help me out here.
Candyman are nine to five.
Who wins?
Yeah.
A goof that kind of gives away how amazing it was.
Like the scene where Candyman flies backwards out the window and they accidentally left
the-
Crane.
Yeah, they left the crane rope showing behind him.

(01:23:32):
And so that gives away the fact they actually pulled Tony Todd through a goddamn window
for that shot.
Like what?
What?
Like you really have to decide, does it get a ding for you seeing the crane shot or does
it get the win for it actually happening?
Like that is a tough one.
Okay.

(01:23:53):
Are we giving this to Candyman?
I don't know, man.
I mean, we did just say if we had to recommend it, we'd go nine to five.
With the technical aspect and like I said, everything that I had to say about the story
aspect with everything that you cared about with the slate, like with the black and white
and everything.
You did kind of bring me over on that one then.

(01:24:14):
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
I guess this goes to Candyman.
Yeah.
Wow.
Talk about the unexpected.
I did not.
Yeah, I did not see that coming.
I'm not happy about it at all.
We may have to reform the questions for next for next season's finale.
I was looking forward to talking about nine to five some more.

(01:24:34):
This one is Airplane versus Meteor Man.
It's not exactly fair.
No, it is not.
However, still, we still got to show Meteor Man some love.
For sure.
Yeah.

(01:24:54):
I mean, it definitely deserves some love.
That's for sure.
So Airplane versus Meteor Man.
Which one did you actually care about more?
That is obviously going to Meteor Man because Airplane didn't even want you to care about
anybody.
That's right.
Yep.
So on the technical win.
The funny part is, is that to such a point that even when there were scenes where you

(01:25:18):
might accidentally start caring about a character, they would immediately reverse it on you.
They would either they would say or do something so profoundly disgusting or stupid that you
change your mind.
You're like, oh, I almost cared about that person.
Oh, shit.
Yeah.
Okay.
And agreed on the technical aspect.

(01:25:39):
Obviously Airplane wins.
Airplane would defeat almost any movie it goes up against for a technical battle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was is a ridiculously technically perfect movie.
Yeah, absolutely.
Which one I would recommend.
There's no contest.
There's no contest.

(01:25:59):
Maybe because of that Air Israel joke, I wouldn't recommend it to Jewish people in 2024.
Give it another give it another like two or three years and I'll be fine.
Yeah, I'll give that a little bit of time because that might be a little bit rough.
That's one of those ebbs and flows type things, you know.
Yeah.
And when it comes to the Jewish community, they get screwed over enough that that ebb
and flow is never going to go.

(01:26:21):
Yes.
Yeah, no, it's true.
Wildly sad.
So yes, you care about people in Meteor Man more and they actually do help you care about
them.
They actually do a pretty good job.
Like you actually do like your main character is a man of integrity and morality and you
do care about it.
Yep.
The technical aspects, of course, airplane wins.

(01:26:43):
But I just did a real quick show to shout to Meteor Man, like all the different ways
like when he showed his super speed and it actually had him going around like moving
in all those different ways, you know, throw him some props on there.
The comedy behind him flying but not being able to fly very high because he's afraid
of heights.

(01:27:04):
Right.
Yep.
The one I'm going to recommend moving forward is obviously going to be airplane.
Yeah.
Yep.
There's nobody I wouldn't recommend it to.
And Meteor Man, if you want to get the reference in the Smash Mouth song.
Yeah.
Other than that, pretty much everybody, I feel like everybody who would love that movie

(01:27:29):
has already seen it or they have had it be shown to them by somebody already.
That's probably a good point.
Yeah.
So for the next round, it's frequency versus the freshman.
Ooh.
Yeah, you're not going to like that very much because.

(01:27:50):
Yeah, the freshman is going to get its ass kicked here, isn't it?
It kind of is.
But that's not fair.
Because the freshman was such a good movie.
It really was.
But yeah, I mean, it was kind of it was kind of good in spite of itself in a lot of ways.
That is true.
Yeah, that's that's kind of the thing about it.

(01:28:11):
So here's the here's the here's the tough one.
The care like the story wise, which one do we care about more?
Obviously frequency.
Obviously frequency.
Yeah.
How do you not even not even compare?
Yeah.
Which one technical win?
I mean, yeah, frequent.
I mean, they both kind of again, this I brought this up before.

(01:28:34):
They neither movie did anything wrong.
And so that means because frequency took more risks, it wins because it took those extra
risks and also did it perfectly to the same level.
So the execution over that paradox was.
Yeah, it was great.
Which one I would recommend.
I would be more likely to recommend the freshman.

(01:28:57):
You think so?
I was going to say frequency being a safer bet.
I always recommend comedies over serious movies.
And if there is a comedy that actually is kind of a guaranteed banger, I will recommend
it pretty pretty religiously.
See, I was going to say the only people I would recommend like like if I if I were to

(01:29:19):
sit there and like go like, oh, there's a movie, you know, it's a movie you should see
in that regards is anybody I knew who was a diehard Godfather series fan.
There you go.
Like to me, to me, I think the freshman is a really, really good like episode four of
the Godfather series.
You know, that's not bad.

(01:29:40):
It's not that I will give you that.
Actually, I can see where you're coming from with that.
And I do agree.
But other than that, I don't really see myself like, you know, really going to.
I mean, I enjoyed it.
I liked it.
I was having a good time watching it again.
After so many years.
But yeah, I mean, I, you know, when it when it comes to like, what would I be like, oh,
you really got to see this movie.

(01:30:02):
Frequency kind of kind of beats the freshman out pretty hard, in my opinion.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Frequency takes the round.
All right.
Oh, I feel bad.
Oh, this one is Buffalo 66 versus Remember the Titans.
Oh, god damn it.

(01:30:22):
It is.
That is a rough one.
That is a rough one.
That doesn't seem fair, but no, it's really not.
But I'm also I'm also very happy about the fact that you don't really consider that fair
because you weren't like you weren't ready for Remember the Titans.
I was not.
No, I was not ready for Remember the Titans at all.

(01:30:45):
I really thought it was like I mean, I mentioned that when we did the episode that I was, you
know, I was expecting just another high school football movie.
I was not expecting 60 segregation politics like that came out of left field for me.
Like I was I was trying to figure out why of all the people who had told me to see this
movie never brought that up before.
No, that's the thing.

(01:31:05):
Like I remember you saying like you don't really like football movies and all that.
And I remember telling you, it's like, I don't like this.
Like football is kind of the backdrop of this movie.
But the thing is, like, so who do you care about more between Buffalo 66 and Remember
the Titans?
Obviously.
Oh, my God.
You obviously care about Bertie and Julius and you care about Coach Boone and Yost.

(01:31:29):
And if Cheryl is not one of your favorite characters of all time, as far as little kid
castings go, I don't understand you as a person.
No, that's true.
Yeah.
When especially considering like, you know, in Buffalo 66, you were kind of like that
was kind of the point.
You weren't supposed to like these characters.

(01:31:50):
You like most of the characters you were supposed to hate them except for Billy and.
Oh, God, I can't believe.
And then Christina Richie.
Christina Richie, because that's who she is.
Always and forever.
But you don't even then you don't really care about that much until like later on as their

(01:32:14):
as their dynamic develops.
The more you learn about the people, the shitty people in Billy's life, you start to care
about him until you see what he's been through.
You're just kind of like, Jesus, what an asshole.
And then as time goes by, you're like, oh, OK, he was he was made an asshole.
The poor guy.
You don't.
You don't.
Even when you're made one, you still have that ability to break that, which if he ever

(01:32:36):
did, he hadn't done it yet.
No, that's true.
Remember the Titans?
But bad things are happening to people who didn't deserve it.
Yeah.
That's why and that and that is the main reason I think that it wins in the over who you care
about the technical aspect.
Oh, Buffalo 66 did some very cool editing tricks.
They were very, very daring.

(01:32:59):
The way they went through in telling the story of him being in prison through overlaying
insert shots.
Yep.
Yep.
That was beautiful.
Like all the different ways that they played with the color correction and they, you know,
washing out in some areas outside and then and then blowing out the colors inside.
Like there was a there was a lot going on there.

(01:33:20):
So yeah, that mean.
But I mean, also at the same time, it did kind of have that whole sort of this is a
low budget indie movie you're going to.
True.
But this is what I really wanted to go.
And this is why Buffalo 66 was the one that I was specifically waiting on because.
What it did.

(01:33:42):
Remember the Titans had Disney money behind it.
Let's remember that.
And they told a good and they told a good story.
It was a great story.
It was I mean, the editing like what have you.
Right.
Buffalo 66 did more with less.
That is true.
You know, I am actually so on the technical aspect story wise, remember the Titans.

(01:34:02):
Technical wise, Buffalo 66, what I'm recommending going forward.
Remember the Titans.
Yeah, no.
And I do remember when I said and I said that at the time I said I'm putting, you know,
remember the Titans in the same category as secondhand lines, which is everyone should
see this movie.
And if you have kids, you absolutely should show this movie to your kids.

(01:34:25):
Buffalo 66, as much as I dearly, dearly, dearly love this movie, there is a very, very small
number of people I would recommend this movie to.
So great.
You know, this one, the 13th Warrior versus Sneakers.
Hmm.
Okay.
Story wise, story wise, for me, it's the 13th Warrior.

(01:34:48):
I cared more about what happened with them.
Yeah, I mean, I think the argument on this one is going to come down to the tech.
Like, which one is the technical win?
And even then.
Because yeah, I mean, Sneakers was kind of more of a time.
Sneakers was more of a of a lot of political statements strung together into a story.

(01:35:11):
It was.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I think, yeah, I'm going to have to concede that one that, yeah, 13th Warrior
was, you know, story and character.
I mean, although.
I mean, I mean, the characters in Sneakers had names, you know.
Well, okay.
First off, just because you can't pronounce or remember them does not mean that the ones

(01:35:34):
in 13th Warrior didn't have any names.
He was Ahmed.
There was Bolvi, Rosgar, Eghtho and others.
I can't remember their names either, but they had names.
But they were all like they were all basically just Vikings.

(01:35:57):
There was the big Viking.
There was the king Viking.
There was the funny Viking.
There was the.
Oh, they were all funny.
The fat Viking, you know, like there were a couple that weren't funny, but I pretty
much they all got a laugh out of me at one point or another.
Yeah.
Yeah, like.
But I mean, they were all so alike.
You know what?
Even in that scene, you didn't really care about the characters so much.

(01:36:20):
You just knew the actors so well that you cared about them before you even met them.
That's true.
That's true.
Like we weren't looking at characters.
We were we weren't.
We were watching Robert Redford and Sidney Poitier.
We were not watching whatever the fuck their characters names exactly.
I have no idea what their names are, but I know every single actor's name in that movie.
Yeah.

(01:36:40):
Except for Dan Aykroyd.
I know he was mother because right.
Exactly.
Fun fact you told me.
So story wise, 13th Warrior Tech.
Damn, the 13th Warrior did a great job with all of their special effects.
That's like the set, the clothing, the fighting, every part about it.
I thought it was amazing.

(01:37:02):
Costumes were all pretty spot on.
Yeah.
And I don't feel like sneakers bell in that department.
No, they really did.
And that's the thing is like they did kind of like even with all of the kind of weird
slapdash technical stuff they were doing.
I mean, it's kind of goes back to, you know, Master and Commander, where I'm saying like
I'm not a boat person.

(01:37:22):
I don't know anything about boats, but I totally followed everything that was happening on
this boat because they did such a good job on that.
I think the same thing happened with sneakers.
You know, you don't have to be a tech person to follow along all the technical shit they're
doing.
So for the technical aspect of this battle, I'm going to give it like I.
Yeah, I don't know which I don't know which one because they're both wildly impressive,

(01:37:46):
but for two very different reasons.
Yeah.
The one I'm recommending 13th Warrior.
Yeah, I get that.
Do you have an argument?
I can't I can't I can't I can't argue against it.
Yeah, like I wasn't that impressed with 13th Warrior.
But I mean, that's the thing is like after watching after watching sneakers for the second

(01:38:08):
time, I guess more like the fourth time.
But after after, you know, 15 years since the last viewing, I came to realize it hasn't
really hasn't really held up.
They haven't stood the test of time as well as I thought it would.
13th Warrior, pretty timeless.
So all right.

(01:38:28):
Next round, the prestige versus the illusionist.
Wow.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, dude.
I don't know how I'm going to do this one.
So let's just start off story wise.
Which one did you care about more?
Because I don't know the illusionist.
I cared about the illusionist.

(01:38:49):
Here's the thing.
I agree, but I cared about the characters of the see.
The thing is, I cared about the love in the illusionist, but I cared about the character's
obsession in the prestige, which is exactly what the prestige wanted me to care about.
I suppose that's true.
Yeah.
So like that's a little bit of a struggle.
But I mean, but personally, the illusionist is one of my all time favorite movies.

(01:39:11):
The prestige, I think it's absolutely dope.
Yeah.
But the illusionist, it has it hits me in a more particular place than the precision.
The prestige, awesome film.
Illusionist, beautiful film.
Yeah.
The technical win.
Prestige.
What do you got?

(01:39:32):
Yeah.
Because the illusion, I think the illusionist, I love the illusionist, but I don't know if
I could fight for it.
That's the thing is with the thing with the illusionist is as good as it was in a lot
of ways.
I think the fact that they went with CGI-ing a lot of the magic tricks, I think was a ding
against them.

(01:39:52):
Okay.
I'll give you that.
So that, you know, even though I get why, I mean, but if I'm going to contrast, compare
the two, there was no need to do any of that in the prestige.
The illusionist did.
And so they kind of, they get a fail on that one.
They were there neck and neck up to that point.
Which one would you recommend moving for like more?

(01:40:14):
Because that's the thing.
If I recommend the illusionist, I recommend the prestige at the same time.
That's the thing.
The fact that I got to see these as a double feature back to back was like 90% of the experience
for these.
Like these are movies that should be seen together.
I will agree with that.
So yeah, that's a tough one.

(01:40:34):
I still got to give it to the illusionist because Paul Giamatti is the deal breaker.
All right.
I will allow it.
As long as I got the agreement, I'm moving forward.
Final round of the preliminaries of the season finale.
Fear of a black hat versus soldier.

(01:40:57):
Damn.
Again, two wildly different movies, man.
You really can't.
That is so, I don't even know how to think about these movies together.
How did we do that?
It's a bit rough.
Well, I mean, we just plain and simple.

(01:41:18):
I know you chose.
I chose Fear of a Black Hat and Soldier because I gave you a Kurt Russell choice.
Oh, that's right.
You said soldier or or Big Trouble in Little China.
That's right.
I remember that.
I should have gone with Big Trouble in Little China.
That was most people.
Most people who know me are very surprised that we haven't covered Big Trouble in Little
China yet.

(01:41:39):
Yeah.
Which when you think about it, 45 movies and we didn't.
That is kind of nuts for me because it almost always makes it into my top five.
Dude, 45 movies and we only did one Christina Ricci movie.
You're welcome.
I would give that props for the restraint.
I held back hard.

(01:42:00):
And we only did two Robin Williams movies, which honestly is just surprising.
That is funny.
Yeah.
Who or which movie got you to care more about the characters?
Because hands down, flat out through and through Soldier.
Soldier.
Yeah.
Oh, really?
Okay.
I thought maybe you would have something for Fear of a Black Hat.

(01:42:20):
I mean, don't get me wrong.
I mean, if when we come down to the which would you recommend more, I'm going to say
Fear of a Black Hat.
But part of Fear of a Black Hat's charm was the fact that these characters were all idiots.
These were all dopes.
These were all people you did.
This was a parody of celebrity in the fact that these are people who people worship for

(01:42:44):
no fucking reason.
I mean, it is a retread of Spinal Tap, but it was a really, really, really good retread
of Spinal Tap.
And you know what?
I'm really sad that they cut the scene where they would have seen Spinal Tap skeleton,
like in the closet.
That would have I would have enjoyed that scene.
That would have been good.

(01:43:04):
Yeah.
So okay.
Soldier.
Technical wise, I'm giving it to Fear of a Black Hat.
Yeah.
I just think they did what they wanted to do better.
Now Soldier, they nailed it.
They nailed it.
Like they really did.
But how terrible that CG was, that's where they lose points.

(01:43:27):
Right.
I get sign of the times, but there were so many that did wildly.
So just so much better.
Like there's really no excuse for how bad that was.
And there were.
Yeah.
And that's the thing is the sort of pseudo documentary approach that they did with Fear
of a Black Hat.
Not only did they pull it off well, but it played really, really well with the whole

(01:43:49):
movie.
Like they like even when the parts where the characters are looking at the camera, when
they're realizing what they just said on camera, stuff like that, you know, I mean, that's
I mean, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
So for what I'm recommending, absolutely Fear of a Black Hat.

(01:44:09):
This has not been viewed by enough people.
It's a better CB4.
And pretty much, the only people I would really recommend Soldier to are people who are huge
fans of Blade Runner.
Okay, right.
You texted me that little fact the other night.

(01:44:31):
I'm still still not sure how I feel about it.
Well apparently there was an opening sequence that was cut from Blade Runner that had a
bunch of replicants being dropped off on a trash planet.
That's these guys.
These guys are replicants.
The movie just never says it.
Wait the.

(01:44:51):
The children are replicants.
Oh, that's so much more mind blowing.
Oh my god.
Well that's the thing.
There is no connection until you know that then it's completely connected.
But Fear of a Black Hat.
Okay.
Yeah, no.
Yeah.

(01:45:11):
All right.
The sad thing is the movie would have been better if they drew that connection.
I would agree with that.
I absolutely would agree with that.
All right.
So that finishes the preliminaries.
Next we go into the quarterfinals and we are going to take a break.

(01:45:32):
I'm thinking like a 10 minute break because I really do need I really do need to give
my voice a bit of a rest because we've been going for two and a half hours literally straight
because these movie fights have actually been and it's fun that we haven't actually had
many fight fights because that's making it go quick.
It's not going to stay that way as we move forward.

(01:45:52):
No, no.
This is about to get bloody.
Yeah.
Our first one is Airplane versus the 13th Warrior and I'm not happy about it.
I don't even know where to begin there.
Yeah, because let's just go right into it because the story.

(01:46:15):
I mean, as we said before, Airplane gets a pass because the point of it was that you
didn't care.
Like it was a parody.
It was making fun of all the movies that came before it in their stories.
So yeah, it's kind of so obviously the 13th Warrior is going to win, but eventually it

(01:46:37):
was going to go down anyway.
So automatically you got to give the 13th Warrior the win on that.
Yeah, technical aspect.
Doc.
Yeah, Airplane runs away with it on technically.
Yeah, that.
I'm not sure.
See, that's the thing with what Airplane was up against last time.

(01:46:59):
Obviously, obviously, obviously, obviously.
But what the technical aspects of Airplane was going for, they nailed the technical aspects
of 13th Warrior.
They absolutely nailed as well.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Okay.
So all right.
Going for that.
So 13th Warrior won for the story, but the technical aspect, that's really where the
battle is going to be because.

(01:47:20):
Yeah.
And I think this brings us back into what I brought this up before, you know, they both
accomplished what they were after, you know, technically perfectly.
Airplane took way more risks.
Every scene was a risk on Airplane.
And I agree.
So the thing is, automatically, the one that's going to go for the recommendation is Airplane.

(01:47:42):
Yeah.
But the technical aspect, you're right.
They just threw literally everything at it.
The amazing thing, none of them failed.
Yeah.
No, that's what's crazy about this movie is that these were wild swings and every one
of them hit.
Like, how?
How was that even possible?

(01:48:03):
I mean, not even the scary movie franchise pulled that off.
No, that's a really, that's a really good point.
Okay.
So how good was the story for 13th Warrior?
So that's the thing.
So we're going to have to start mixing some things here because Airplane is the recommendation.
However, 13th Warrior has become a cult classic and there are so many people that would recommend

(01:48:29):
that.
There are so many people that would recommend Airplane as well.
But that's also kind of one of those like the story.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, that's kind of what I mean.
Okay.
Let's go for general audience.
Let's go for that general audience wise.
I mean, that's still tough because I mean, Airplane is the one that started it all.

(01:48:50):
It is the hands down best out of all of them.
Still, many have tried.
None have quite done it.
You know, not this good, but that's all.
But it's also like, that's one of those movies that, you know, clips of it are enough.
You can still see clips of it floating around the internet and people get their fix.

(01:49:11):
Yeah.
So 13th Warrior is the get people together, sit down on the couch, get the popcorn out,
turn off the lights kind of movie.
So which one is the better movie?
Because I want to give it to the 13th Warrior because there's story.

(01:49:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you're not wrong there.
Audience, help us out.
Like, what do you got?
Like, like Airplane versus 13th Warrior.
This is after the preliminaries.
This is where it's getting tough.
Yeah, I think.

(01:49:54):
I think I think I'm going to have to go with 13th Warrior on this one simply by the nature
of the fact that I think I would need to recommend it to somebody when it comes to Airplane.
I don't think you need to tell anybody that they want to see this movie.
Most people are already aware of it, even if they have not seen it.

(01:50:17):
I mean, I remember like you were saying you were surprised to discover you hadn't seen
the movie.
You'd seen so many bits and pieces of it.
You thought you'd seen it, but you hadn't actually.
And I think that's kind of where Airplane sits for most people is that we're all really
aware of most of it.
And you can get and you can enjoy it without ever actually taking the time to sit down

(01:50:40):
and watch it all the way through.
That's possible with 13th Warrior.
This is the kind of that's the kind of movie where you have to turn to someone and go,
no, no, you actually need to sit down and watch this movie.
And so we got the audience did kick in.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
13th Warrior also is able to entice people to read Beowulf.

(01:51:00):
Oh, that is a very good point.
That is a very good point.
But in your case, Airplane did entice you to want to watch the airport movies.
So well, it was it was Airplane mixed with the fact of what we learned about Independence
Day and that mishap about Robert Loggia.
Right, right, right.

(01:51:21):
OK, so that was that was the extra thing that on that.
OK, but I think I think I want to give it to 13th Warrior.
Yeah, I think I think we're I think we're going to go ahead and give it to 13th Warrior
on that one.
Boy, it's a tough one.
It's a squeaker, though, because, man, because you don't get much more classic of a movie
than Airplane.
That's the thing.

(01:51:41):
That is true.
That did that did make it tougher.
All right.
So 13th Warrior moving on.
Oh, oh, this is not fair.
Oh, I don't know how I'm going to fight this one.
How are what kind of what is what is your random system that you're choosing here?
And just however it winds up in the folder.
OK.

(01:52:01):
Whichever like because they're not they just wound up randomly in there.
Oh, wait a minute.
No, it's alphabetically.
I was inbound.
I'm very dumb.
I am very dumb.
That was a that was a championship moment for me.
All right.
So this round, the borrowers versus bound borrowers versus bound.

(01:52:23):
Wow.
I don't think I'm going to be able to win.
I mean, who do we care about more?
Actually, I think.
Corky.
I mean, you know, Gershon's character, Corky, like, like 90 90 percent of the tension is
is she going to get out of this alive?
Yeah.
I know.
Really?

(01:52:44):
No, I think like Jennifer Tilley's character was the one that I was really worried about.
Well, her character is definitely in the shit.
Yeah.
The Gershon's character, like the whole.
Yeah.
Which is obviously she's so obviously in over her head right away because because Jennifer
Tilley is playing her immediately.

(01:53:06):
She thinks she's missed tough lady, but Jennifer Tilley's got her in the palm of her hand right
off the bat.
And we all see it very much.
That's like so.
OK.
I did care about the story and bound more than the bar was happy with that.
The technical aspect.
There is the pre-Matrix testing everything out on bound before they did the matrix.

(01:53:30):
Then there is the unbelievable good job that they did on filming people as miniatures in
the bar.
That's that's true.
Yeah.
That was the aspect.
I want to give it to the borrowers.
Sure.
Because bound was like conceptual art.

(01:53:50):
The borrowers was teams, scores of people mixing multiple different kinds of art styles
to pull that off.
Rounding up that many Irish people and making them look small.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm still blown away when I think about it.

(01:54:11):
Yeah.
Now, the one that I would recommend.
That's a tough one.
I'm going with bound.
I want to go with borrowers because how well because that was the perfect era of visual
effects mixing mixing with CG.
Sure.
Yeah.
That was the perfect era.
So anytime that I want to reference somebody back to it, it's Jurassic Park.

(01:54:34):
It's the borrowers.
Right.
Just a couple of years.
Yeah.
Not doing the Terminator 2.
Right.
Yeah.
Not not leaning on CGI, but using CGI in a way to augment the really good practical effects.
Yes.
And that was a kind of a golden age that, yeah, we've lost for sure.
And yeah, I guess, yeah, borrowers definitely is in there with it along with the others.

(01:54:56):
But I mean, that's the thing is like I would.
I think that I mean, the only thing that I would separate.
Sticking to the same concept of general audiences.
I feel like borrowers automatically wins.
However, sure.
And if we're speaking just to the adult audience, everything like that, there is that lesbian

(01:55:19):
sex scene and bound that pretty much I think is you got to be at least 12 years old to
appreciate that.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
Well, the point that I was taking with that is I think that is the best sex scene in cinema
history.
No, I don't disagree at all.
Yeah.
And the and the and the story behind it as well.
They would not allow any cuts like they had to choreograph it so well that they didn't

(01:55:43):
want to allow any cuts in there so they couldn't send it off to the editors and have the editors
toss cuts from like porn actors and stuff like that in there.
Right.
Yeah.
So they didn't want this one.
This one really is a top.
This one really is kind of a toss for me because I really want to say the bar was because there's
also John Goodman's acting in there that you don't get to see enough of that kind of acting

(01:56:06):
from him and he is perfect.
Also true.
Actually, no, that's not that's not true for that kind of acting.
I mean, like there's I mean, he's kind of almost I mean, maybe not the same character.
Like I know that like that character is playing in the bar where it is very much a send up
of a specific celebrity individual whose name will not be mentioned.

(01:56:29):
But like as far as the sort of the suit as far as like overall general like character
goes, he kind of plays the same character in Oprah.
Oh, brother, we're art though.
Like in that whole like over the top acting style, he does comedy.
OK, less comedy for sure.
But that's the same over the top thing like John Goodman doing slapstick, like going over

(01:56:52):
the top, being loud, being big, really committing.
That's John Goodman slapstick.
Not a lot.
Not enough.
No, I guess that's true.
Yeah.
So I'm still I'm still sticking with bound on this one because it like that's.
That's the thing is like I can think of specific individuals with kids that I would recommend

(01:57:14):
the borrowers to.
I would kind of recommend bound to everybody.
I just wait a couple of years till the kids were old enough and then I'd recommend it
to them.
You know, see, I see.
I kind of disagree there because the borrowers, I had a fantastic time with it as an adult.
OK, so I don't think I don't think there is an age limit.

(01:57:36):
Probably bars, I think no matter how old you are, I think you will get a kick out of it.
Maybe to a certain degree.
Yeah, I mean, I think I would have enjoyed it more if I was watching it with my kids
when they were kids.
Like, I don't know if they mean they're both in their 20s now, so I don't think they'd
dig it as much.
But that's the thing is like, I would have enjoyed this more as a family movie back when

(01:57:57):
my kids were smaller.
You know.
All right.
I can concede for bound, but this is the last time that I'm conceding for bound.
Next time, next time.
But once we get into the semifinals, that's when I'm a start.

(01:58:17):
OK, all right.
OK, so I'll give this one to bound.
Bound gets this one.
Oh, there's no way I'm not winning this one.
Oh, boy.
Candyman versus the burbs.
Oh, no.
I do feel a little bad.
It's not that's a beating, my friend.
Coming from the man who just said alphabetical is a good way to do this.

(01:58:42):
It's a story.
I'm not keeping track of these story wise.
Yeah.
OK.
Yeah.
Candyman has a better story.
Technical wise, technical live bees, man.
I mean, you're never going to beat the live bees.
Recommend recommendations moving forward.

(01:59:02):
Well, the burbs.
But that's just me.
That is that is just you.
That is just you.
I think anybody else would recommend Candyman over the burbs unless you are having a specific
kind of night.
Yeah.
You know, that's really that's really like I only want comedy and that's it.
Right.

(01:59:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
OK.
I'm out for time with that one.
Oh, I think I'm going to win this one too.
All right.
This round goes to.
Well, I guess we don't know yet, but.
All right.
Dragonheart versus fear of a black hat.

(01:59:45):
Oh, oh, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
But let's go ahead and get the first one out of the way.
It's Dragonheart.
We care more about the characters in Dragonheart than we do the characters.
I suppose that's that is that is true.
That is technically true.
But now the technical aspect.

(02:00:06):
But remember, at the same time, you're not supposed to care about the characters in Fear
of a Black Hat.
And that's where I'm saying that's where the technical aspect becomes in, because damn,
Dragonheart did amazing, but it did everything it was supposed to.
Fear of a Black Hat did amazing and it really hammered home everything it was supposed to.

(02:00:28):
Right.
So I don't know.
Like just like an airplane, it took wild, wild swings in everything that they did.
And they all they all landed.
Yeah.
You know, I can't think of any that didn't.
I can't think of any that didn't.
I feel.
Yeah, there is probably one or two scene that is not going to land with people these days.

(02:00:50):
But, you know, I mean, well, no, I mean, it's a comedy.
Either you're going to laugh at that or you're not.
Right.
Yeah.
If you're not, you're really not.
OK.
But for which one actually succeeded for what it was meant to do more?
Dragonheart versus Fear of a Black Hat.
Man, every character I was meant to hate in Dragonheart, I hated every character I was

(02:01:13):
meant to love in Dragonheart.
Oh, I loved.
Arthur Gilbert might be the most perfect side character that I've ever seen ever.
Tying it in with Avalon and that speech that Sean Connery gives about the oath of Avalon.
Right.
I mean, damn, like Fear of a Black Hat.

(02:01:34):
What do you got?
And I mean, OK, granted in Dragonheart, like when we do finally, like we spend the whole
movie hearing about the rules of the knighthood, the honorable rules of knighthood, and it
isn't until we actually hear the ghost of King Arthur speak the rules in their entirety
in that moment that it kind of like it is a weird kind of encapsulates everything that's

(02:02:00):
happening.
It was a very deep moment.
It was a very good, you know, it's kind of made me want to sit there and, you know, and
like learn calligraphy so I could write those rules down and put them up on my wall or something
like that.
OK, that's a good moral code.
I mean, right.
It was on the on the other hand, Fear of a Black Hat had booty juice.

(02:02:24):
I mean, but that but that's a thing.
It was it did exactly.
No, but you're right.
That's a funny as it was to me.
No, probably.
But the thing was it it literally hammered home everything that it meant to.

(02:02:45):
Yes, like it was supposed to be a joke was a joke was supposed to be commentary was successful
commentary.
Yeah, did amazing.
It really, really did.
Yeah.
Yeah, the one that I would recommend moving forward.
It's Dragonheart for me.
I'm still going to stick with Fear of a Black Hat.
OK, so then it boils down to like which one did their like which one?

(02:03:09):
Really?
Succeeded.
Yeah, and.
I love the practical effects that they used in Dragonheart and the fact that they had
the practical effects only for one scene, like they really went gung ho to do that.
And I really appreciated that.
So there is that.
But again, there is I mean, and I brought this up at the episode, you know, between

(02:03:34):
Dragonheart and Jurassic Park, Jurassic Park's budget was only 20 million dollars more than
Dragon Hearts.
But the quality, the gulf and quality between them was way, way wider.
So and that is where that is true.
That's not the only thing that I'm surrounding it with.

(02:03:54):
Because they yes, they did run into a lot of problems.
They ran into some budget problems.
They ran into a studio getting shut down and a lot of their stuff just wasn't compatible
with the new thing.
So that is kind of shit hit the fan.
They still succeeded this much.
And OK, thing is, it still is top tier for its time.

(02:04:17):
Go ahead and go back and watch the Super Mario Brothers movie and tell me that it ain't top
tier.
Sure.
No, I know I'm not.
I'm not.
But I do.
And bring it to the absolute best, the absolute best of the time.
Like there is there's just no competing with that.
I'm going to have to disagree because I actually remember when this movie came out in theaters

(02:04:41):
and I do remember that was one of the things that everybody like of the people who were
dogging on the movie.
Oh, really?
Their main thing was the fact that the CGI dragon looked like shit in a time when generally
speaking, people had higher expectations because the like Draco and Dragonheart looked better
than the Brontosaurus do in the opening.

(02:05:02):
Like the first time you get to see that, like the Brontosaurus in Jurassic Park.
I think the general issue had to do with the fact that even though like body shape wise
and I don't know if this was a choice or if this was a demand on Connery's part, but the
very fact that they actually like did face tracking on Connery and even shaped the dragon's
face to look like Connery so that face tracking would match kind of brought the dragon into

(02:05:27):
this weird sort of cartoony uncanny valley realm.
He looked more like a cartoon character than a dragon.
And I think that's kind of what bothered people.
I was OK with it.
Like that was like they did anthropomorphize.
Yes, you were on the right track.
Wow.
Wow.
That word just escaped me like crazy.

(02:05:49):
They did.
And I do agree, but I like it.
I like looking at the cover of Dragonheart and actually being able to see one of my favorite
actors of all time in that dragon.
Maybe that is because I have such a deep fondness for Sean Connery.
I'm not sure.
And I mean, I have known this movie inside and out since I was a child.

(02:06:13):
Sure.
So there is the nostalgic aspect on that.
But like I said, like Jurassic Park was mostly practical effects.
You can't really compare that to something that actually is CG.
OK.
Like you can't.
That's that's like that's why that's why I compared it to the Brontosaurus when they
first like Sam Neill, like taking his glasses off and oh my God, right.

(02:06:36):
That whole thing.
Graco looks better than that.
OK.
So I gotta give that.
I gotta give that to Dragonheart because Jurassic Park was not a CG movie.
It did incredible things with practical effects.
No, that's true.
OK.
I mean.
OK.
Yeah, I guess it's going to have to go to Dragonheart, which I am not happy with at

(02:07:03):
all.
Because in my opinion, I enjoyed Fear of a Black Hat so much more than Dragonheart.
Dragonheart wasn't bad.
It wasn't bad.
Very much.
Fear of a Black Hat was great, in my opinion.
And I very much did enjoy Fear of a Black Hat.
I am not saying at all that I didn't.

(02:07:23):
I want to be very, very clear on that.
But damn.
You could like find a human being on this planet that is going to shed a tear for Fear
of a Black Hat.
OK.
All right.
This round is Frequency versus Independence Day.
Oh, god damn.

(02:07:45):
Yep.
All right.
Preliminary, the easy, the speedy, the easy fights of the preliminary rounds.
Yeah, that is gone.
OK.
Which one do we care about more?
I feel like Frequency just steals that one.
Like, there's not really.
That's not where it's at.
Yeah.
Right.

(02:08:06):
And the Birdcage did it before was because the only reason that it wins is because there
are fewer characters and so you have more time to get involved in them.
And so it's kind of a technicality that you care about it more.
Yeah.
Yes.
The technical aspects of these two films, which one came out on top?

(02:08:29):
Because Independence Day did not drop a single thing.
Frequency did not miss a single beat.
Like they're both like as far as the science goes, as far as the lore goes, as far as everything,
they're perfect.
I'm going to go with Independence Day on this one.

(02:08:49):
I just, it might be the same reason as me.
The practical effects on the explosion.
Not the practical effects on the explosion.
On the reveal of the spaceship coming out of the clouds.
Oh my god, that is iconic.
You are correct.
You are correct.
That is one of those things that I kind of feel sorry for people today because that is

(02:09:11):
an iconic scene now.
You can never see that for the first time again.
That's the thing is for those of us who saw this movie on opening weekend in theaters,
that was a pants shitting reveal that nobody saw coming.
And oh my god, it was so amazing.
And it was the most amazing special effects and the best reveal ever in the history of
cinema.
Now it's a meme practically.

(02:09:32):
You know, it's kind of boilerplate.
Yeah.
But even though I mean, but no, that's not true because they screw up so much about like
the shapes of clouds and not just coloring or like they make it look too too good.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Yeah.

(02:09:52):
No, like that.
And so for that, yeah, it's a really, really, really tough call between these two.
So I'm going to go on that just on that one thing and that is the revealed the ship in
the clouds in Independence Day.
Independence Day for the overall recommendation, I'm giving it to Independence Day because
Independence Day has how many iconic moments, the exposure, the reveal, the president's

(02:10:20):
speech, the line going into the like the end, like, hello, boys, I'm back.
Like, yep.
Oh my god.
It's a quotable movie for decades.
Yeah, that's.
We went Quaid versus Quaid.
Oh my god, that's right.
What are the odds of that?

(02:10:42):
We've done a couple of Dennis Quaid movies.
The odds were actually pretty good.
We've done.
In fact, I think we've done like.
So we've done two, three Dennis Quaid movies.
Two Dennis Quaid movies.
Two Randy, two Dennis.
OK, so yeah, they were going to.
Independence Day and then frequency and Dragonheart.
Right.
All right.

(02:11:02):
So they were due to go ahead and head eventually.
It's weird that we actually.
We just barely saved Dennis Quaid from going up against Dennis Quaid.
Oh, true.
Oh, that would have been a fun one.
All right.
So Independence Day clearly, clear winner.
But frequency does win on the story.
No, for sure.
You cannot take that away from it.

(02:11:23):
Now we have Master and Commander and one night at McCool's.
It's not fair.
No, it's not fair, but we mean it's a fact.
Master and Commander's just.
Takes a worry.
I mean, yeah.
Master and Commander.
Yeah.
Technical.

(02:11:43):
Yeah.
Master and Commander.
Recommending.
Hands down.
Master and Commander.
100%.
Yeah.
I mean, that's.
So sorry for one night at McCool's.
It is such a good movie.
It is so much fun, but it just doesn't make sense to even.
You can't.
That was.
Yeah.
That was Triangle Man versus Particle Man right there is what that was.

(02:12:04):
That was.
That is an old reference that none of you will get.
I didn't even get that, man.
What are you talking about?
Oh, OK.
I'll have fun with this one.
Yeah, you will.
Predestination versus Requiem for a Dream.
Predestination was an audience recommendation, wasn't it?
Yes, it was.

(02:12:25):
However, that was like, I loved it.
So I just kind of.
Oh, OK.
I just kind of adopted it.
Gotcha.
OK.
All right.
So who we care about more.
I do care about Sarah Snook in Predestination much more than any single character in Requiem.

(02:12:45):
But I do care about.
Half.
Yeah, I could care about half of the characters in Requiem.
Sarah Snook is just I mean, I know we talked about during the episode, but I don't think
I still don't think we talk enough about how crazy amazing her performance was.

(02:13:06):
You did very well.
But yeah, and it's like.
Even ditching her accent for that, too.
Right.
Yeah.
And like even before, like we kind of we kind of get it.
It's you know, it's not like it's a big reveal.
But even when she's basically playing, you know, she's playing the future version of

(02:13:26):
herself as a man, telling the story of past version of herself as a woman, you kind of
care about them both.
You care about her character.
And even if you haven't drawn the connection yet, that they're the same person, you're
still looking at this guy telling the story about this lady and you're feeling his connection
to her in a sort of ethereal way.

(02:13:49):
You care about what his investment is in the story that he's telling before you even know
what his connection is.
And so it's like, not only do you care about him, but you care about every version of him
separately.
All right.
So fair enough.
You're fighting for predestination.
Oh, 100 percent.
Because I actually enjoyed both of these and I know you hate Requiem.

(02:14:11):
I don't get to fight for predestination and that bums me out a little bit because I love
this so much.
All right, the mom in Requiem, the journey that she went down where you think that she's
being hustled or pranked or something like that, but then she goes to get prepared for
the being on TV and she winds up going on diet pills, not knowing that it was speed

(02:14:33):
and then getting addicted to it.
Like what happens to her?
The mental, like the psychotic break that she goes into.
Like my heart was in knots.
My stomach was turning everything that happened to her and what happened to her by the end,
all she did was love her son and she like defended him.

(02:14:54):
She like pushed for him.
She did all this.
Like, and but the thing was she wasn't strong enough to love somebody that was that messed
up and it wound up breaking her.
What happened with Jennifer Connelly's character?
Honestly, I really didn't care.
That is a true story that happens all the time.
Rich people like they have this easy way, all this, they get bored, they want to challenge

(02:15:15):
everything.
Then they wind up in drugs and they screw themselves up.
I empathize with the fact that it does exist.
I do somewhat sympathize with that, but compared to what happens to everybody else, no, no,
no, no.
Like what happened to the mom broke me.
What happened to the son or not the son, but Marlon going through and like his entire journey,

(02:15:38):
basically trying to find a way to make his mom proud of him and how that has destroyed
him and how warped his vision is of it and what he does and like all of it, how much
pressure was on him and how much he was pushing on himself and how much it was cracking him.
I felt every bit of pain that I was supposed to these characters.

(02:16:00):
That's just, oh, like I know you didn't like the film style.
Definitely get that.
But the story that was being told there, you know, less paradoxical, but damn much more
important and real.
And that's why I think we're that.

(02:16:20):
Look, I realize that this is not a thing that I'm like a hundred percent familiar with on
a personal level.
But that's kind of like, again, it all felt very like it all felt very cookie cutter to
me.
I did not see anything in this other than it was four different afterschool specials

(02:16:47):
all being played at once and done badly.
Oh, I disagree with the badly part.
I heavily disagree with the badly part.
But that is that that is a preferential thing.
So like we got it, we got to remove that from the aspect.
It's just got to be about.
I don't.
I.
But but that's the thing is like even story was, like I said, there was there was nothing

(02:17:10):
there.
You know, it was like the story was the like the process of addiction, how they like the
story was how different people wind up going down that path.
Like that was the story.
The vehicle was the drugs.
Yeah, I get where it took them was different places.

(02:17:30):
But like I said, it's like it's like, you know, it's like an afterschool special, you
know, where it's like drugs are bad.
This is all the things that happen to you.
It didn't even bother including any of the parts where we see what they're losing.
It's a we don't see them.
What?
We see the dude loses arm.
We see the guy go to prison.

(02:17:51):
We see the mom wind up in a psych like a psychiatric institution and we see the girl wind up being
a crack whore.
You're kidding me.
We don't really see them to be anything else.
That's the thing.
We don't know who these people are other than like like they jump months ahead of time.

(02:18:15):
We never see any of their lives other than the chain of events that leads them to these
disasters.
Yeah, we don't see them.
We don't see them like we never I guess that's the thing is like we we're never given a chance
to care about these people because all they are and what I'm wondering is how you didn't

(02:18:40):
care about them.
Like that's the thing because you're saying that we didn't.
I very much did.
A lot of the people that I talked to commenters that came through for the episode like a lot
like that's the thing you didn't but it did land with a lot of people.
I'm like so I'm wondering like how it like what what I think it was just honestly I think

(02:19:05):
it was just the editing style that really just lost him because like the thing was there
was no happy ending.
There was an ending.
They went on a journey and it just was not a good one.
And this and the movie the story it told it did exactly what it was meant to it hurt you.

(02:19:30):
And that was the thing it could not hurt you if you didn't care about the character.
And then then that's the thing.
Yeah it's like I did not see why like from right the get-go they're just a bunch of addicts
like yeah we're we're I mean okay sure.
Yeah fair.
She's not and that was and that was the thing like because from an addict's mind a lot of

(02:19:54):
it it's like you don't understand this you don't understand this you don't understand
this then you watch it you see how they like make those justifications to themselves and
a big part of it like and that's like I know like with Matthew Bright and freeway where
you like kind of seems like you have to have home from someplace like that.

(02:20:14):
I'm not sure how you connect to a character like that so easily but when it comes to something
like this there's such a heavy disconnect.
You know here's the thing and this is the worst because it's been months since I watched
the thing and I did not appreciate you know like do it again.
That's the thing is like I would love to deconstruct all of this but it would require me to watch

(02:20:35):
the movie a second time and I'm just not going to do that.
It's never happening.
Maybe in the audience want to toss it and I don't feel like that fair because not a
lot of people have seen predestination and Requiem.
I mean it really really comes down to very simple like I did not hate myself for watching

(02:20:56):
predestination with all you know whatever you know deconstruct you know I've even you
know even with my preconceived judgments when it comes to Robert Heinlein you know I'm even
willing to take those into account that there were parts of this movie that I thought were
kind of out there that maybe most people didn't notice solely because they're not Robert Heinlein

(02:21:17):
fans they don't know his work they don't know how his weird fucking mind works.
I was kind of a little little sensitive to that and I but I was still able to enjoy the
movie.
Requiem was just fucking pain.
That's all it was every second of that movie.
I wanted it to be over now and not in a oh this is such a sad story way it was in a this

(02:21:39):
is such a bad movie way like there is a difference between watching a movie like like Buffalo
66 that is an arguably sad story about someone's decline that is painful to watch because his
character is so is so damaged versus a movie that is just badly fucking made and that is

(02:22:00):
Requiem for a Dream.
So we're still on the story part.
Stop talking about the technical shit.
I'm not talking about the technical shit.
I am talking about the story as well.
The story is also bad because the story also had no substance.
It was entirely made up entirely of headlines from newspapers from the fucking 60s about

(02:22:21):
how bad drugs are.
That's all it was.
It was regurgitated bullshit.
So as they were so as they were going through and they were figuring out like how the story
like was going to be put together get the drugs figure out the drugs do this the anger
the effects that the withdrawals had between Connolly and Leto like we saw them being tortured

(02:22:46):
by the effects of it.
We saw what was happening to their characters.
We saw the drugs defining the characters and every part of it.
And that was the point of the movie.
And I get like the movie is pain the movie very much is but where Redestination heavily

(02:23:07):
goes in and plays on and I want to say gimmicks because some of them are the loss of a baby
guarantees to make you basically there are sympathetic versions of Save the Cat.
Oh yeah.
They just went through story beats you lost your love you lost your child you lost your
ability for child.

(02:23:28):
Now you lost your gender like it was just attacking you with things like that.
No and it just hit and at the end of the movie I remember your point on it that it was kind
of weird that it kind of ended basically because of homophobia like that's what that's what
ended that and that's just which I do not remember what that point was it's been too

(02:23:49):
long now.
Well yeah it was just Ethan Hawke versus an older Ethan Hawke and he's like I love you
and he's like bang.
Right yeah.
Like okay.
No like how that story ended.
Yeah.
How Requiem for a Dream ended it hurt.
It hurt me.

(02:24:09):
So I mean story was I got to say like the way that it left me I got to give it I got
to give it to Requiem.
I really do.
People wise I got to give it to Predestination but like moving forward for recommendations
the fact that Requiem for a Dream is on the list of a thousand and one movies that you
must see before you die.

(02:24:33):
There is so much message in this movie that comes with that that is what turns it into
the must see.
Predestination there are a lot of people that I wouldn't recommend it to for the same reasons
as Birdcage like for general audiences things like that.
I think Predestination it would be much more of a miss because a lot of people wouldn't

(02:24:54):
understand the science and they get lost in that.
Yeah well and also.
They would be thinking about that more than the story.
Yeah yeah and yeah the weird paradoxical nature of the whole thing there's yeah.
So that's the thing like so.
I think there was even there was even like yeah we were we spent a lot of time trying
to figure out where the heck this person even came from in the first place was never really

(02:25:17):
but yeah.
Yeah like that that in itself was a paradox like the fact that she existed like she had
to have been created for the whole paradox to have even existed.
Right yeah.
And unlike Umbrella Academy they didn't really try to explain that.
They were like not too complicated skip.

(02:25:40):
So I hated arguing against Predestination and I don't think Requiem is going to make
it past the semifinals but I think I think I think we've got to give this to Requiem
man.
I'll tell you one thing for sure however this shakes out I will not let Requiem win best

(02:26:02):
picture on this one.
I don't care who I have to kill.
It's not happening.
All right.
I don't think it's going to.
I don't think it's going to happen.
But it's just the fact that it has gone up against the two that it has gone up against
that is how it has gone this way.
Plain and simple.
Okay.
All right.
Oh God I really did not enjoy arguing against Predestination.

(02:26:27):
I don't.
So I don't enjoy talking about Requiem period.
And now you have to do it a third time.
I know I'm not happy about this at all.
We have the Bone Collector versus Secondhand Lions.
Oh.
Oh.
See what I'm saying.

(02:26:47):
Yeah that's a tough one.
Man that's going to be.
All right.
So right off the bat story.
Secondhand Lions versus the Bone Collector.
I mean that's a tough comparison because that's because there because we're talking really

(02:27:07):
because I mean I know we kind of go back and forth a bit on the whole like you know is
it fair to compare these two very different movies in this case is really like wildly
unfair to compare these two because the reasons you care for your because you care for the
characters equally for different reasons.
Like you want to see the relationships succeed in in Secondhand Lions in Bone Collector.

(02:27:38):
The relationships are there that you wish to see succeed but they are secondary to the
fact that you want to see them succeed in solving the fucking murder case.
Like get it like we want your relationship to succeed so you can get past your shit and
solve the murder.
That's the thing that both of these movies did multiple storytelling very well.
Secondhand Lions what happened between Jasmine and Robert Duvall.

(02:28:03):
We cared.
We cared as much as Haley Joel Osmond cared.
No that's true.
Yeah.
Finding out whether the money was real or fake.
We got invested too.
What was going to happen to Haley Joel.
We got invested.
Whether Robert Duvall was going to survive.
Like the lion.
Yeah.

(02:28:23):
Like there's no they did such a good part.
Good job of making you care about every single thing in this movie.
That's true.
Yeah.
And then switch.
Even when they seemed like yeah weirdly inconsequential stuff.
Yeah.
But you were invested in every moment.
You were invested in the salesman.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That was incredible.

(02:28:45):
But switching over to the bone collector.
Is there a single character that you that didn't fascinate you?
I mean the captain at O'Neill the partner Angelina Jolie and Denzel and Queen Latifah.
Yeah.
But oh one of them did not steal my attention.

(02:29:06):
But also at the same time bear in mind there was a bit of that misdirect going like we
were supposed to pay attention to everybody to kind of suspect everybody at the same time.
True and that is that is more over to the technical win.
Right.
Because the film did a great job of tricking me into following all of that because I pay
attention to people's eyes.

(02:29:27):
So the fact that they cast people with similar color eyes and all this and they made that
very obvious.
Right.
Oh bone collecting did good on the technical aspect.
But oh so did second hand lions.
That's the thing.
I need to think if I cared more about any of the individual characters in the bone collector

(02:29:47):
because there is that scene in both of these movies.
Haley Joel is being attacked by the guy comes get rescued by the lion.
Link is getting attacked by the murderer.
Come and gets rescued by Angelina Jolie.
Right.
Like I think I cared more about Link.

(02:30:07):
Like I think I think I had more anxiety and tension in that moment.
Even if I didn't actually care about the person the character the actor cared more like in
that moment I was more drawn into that because I didn't think Haley Joel was in any risk
at all.
I guess that yeah that is that is true.
There was a little bit more investment there than Angelina Jolie and like what happened

(02:30:31):
with the story between her wanting to quit the force and her father committing suicide
and Link wanting to commit suicide himself.
You barely even catch that story unless you're absolutely paying attention.
And I guess that's true that that it was it was a pretty interesting way of like fleshing
out these characters in these kind of like seemingly inconsequential info dumps without

(02:30:57):
having to put a spotlight on them in the same way the the story about Jasmine literally
has a spotlight put on it.
Yes.
So I suppose in that regard I'm still not 100 percent ready to commit though.
I know.
I get that.
OK.
Let's I think we need to call this one a tie.
Yeah I'm going to have to agree.

(02:31:19):
Both these movies did incredibly well.
They really did.
And making us to care.
The technical aspects want to give it to the bone collector.
But the bone collector was coming off of the heels of a book that already had like with
all the with all the clues.
The right.
The things that Link had to put together everything dropped.

(02:31:40):
The fact that the murderer was leaving all these clues way longer than the store than
the movie was going on and that we were following those kinds of details were incredible for
the technical aspect of the story.
Yes that's that's true.
Don't know.
However.
Well I mean I mentioned this before in the last last round secondhand lions had two very

(02:32:05):
disparate genres going on.
It had that pale Midwestern and then the Spielbergian fantasy that were both done perfectly in their
own way and blended together perfectly in a way that shouldn't have worked but did.
And so in that regard it.
I also want to get the like the composer like incredible props on secondhand lions.

(02:32:27):
Right.
The bone collector same but it has that like that significant eeriness that really follows
in with a lot of movies that follow that secondhand lions that adventure music like everything
like the music told you what to feel the whole movie and you really didn't need it because
the movie did such a good job.

(02:32:49):
Secondhand lions threw in a shot of a giraffe being driven down the highway in Texas.
I thought you were going to talk about the and it wasn't weird standing on top of the
pig.
Also Haley Joel Osment looks down at a plate with bacon and eggs.
Right.
Yeah.

(02:33:10):
Mind you here's the thing though one of those shot like the there are outtakes of the crew
actually trying to get that chicken on top of that pig.
So that is a real practical shot that is incredible to me.
But the best thing is like it kind of looked a little awkward like as much as they put
into it and as funny as it was it looked a little awkward.
It looks so awkward that it looked like CG because that's the thing it kind of you kind

(02:33:33):
of suspected it was.
Meanwhile the giraffe though that was perfect.
Just a beautiful shot.
It was seamless.
And the fact that they had the wardrobe change prepared in their closet for every single
time.
No, and not to mention the fact that that wasn't part of the delivery.
They were getting a lion in different crate.
They were not getting a giraffe delivery.

(02:33:55):
The giraffe delivery was going to somebody else.
Also this is how we found out that Purina makes and delivers lion chow.
Exactly.
Yes.
That was a fun fact.
I don't know if I ever would have gotten anywhere else.
But but yeah you know I mean I think it's a close call but I'm going to second hand
lions.
Yeah.
Second hand lions gets this one.

(02:34:16):
Second hand lions is one of those movies that you could sit down and show to the family.
You can sit down and watch it as your own comfort film or you can put it on in the background
at a party.
There is no situation that is not appropriate to have second hand lions on.
It is remarkably good movie for all situations.

(02:34:37):
Now what?
You're going to hate me.
I mean I already do but go on.
I know but this is beyond mean.
This is the illusionist versus the paper.
Oh fuck you.
I feel bad for you.
I do.
This does actually feel mean.

(02:35:03):
Which one did you care about the characters more?
I mean we'll see that's the thing that's that's what's rude about this is because I am going
to go the paper all the way knowing is a losing battle.
Okay I'm going to do it anyway.
I'm going to have to go like so you have basically Robert Duvall versus Paul Giamatti.
Like you have our older characters a little bit wiser.

(02:35:25):
They have that you know kind of never gives a poor performance but man did Paul Giamatti
deliver.
Well see here's the thing.
I don't know if I would match Duvall against Giamatti.
I would match.
I was more thinking like Quaid.

(02:35:45):
I would put Quaid as the Giamatti role because he's more because this thing is like Giamatti
was the kind of.
I'm not trying to match the I'm not trying to match the characters.
I'm more trying to match like the star and then the starring supporting.
I see what you're saying.
Okay which to me in the paper was Robert Duvall.
Okay see that's a tough one because that's the thing is such an ensemble cast because

(02:36:06):
it's like you've got like yeah Henry Michael Keaton is the main character but he is kind
of like in every scene that he's in with someone else whether it's Glenn Close or Robert Duvall
or Marissa Tomei in that scene they are the co-star.
They are the second star of the movie in that scene and then Marissa Tomei leaves and Randy

(02:36:28):
Quaid comes in and all of a sudden Randy Quaid is the star is the second star of the movie
next to it.
So that's kind of what was remarkable about this movie is that everybody owns the moment
they're in you know.
Okay all right yeah which don't get me wrong you're right that Giamatti definitely does
that in this movie for sure.
But Rufus Sewell Paul Giamatti, Jessica Biel every time they're like every time there were

(02:36:55):
two actors in this movie they could have been the star of the movie.
The movie could have been about them.
Yeah absolutely.
That is true.
I heard more about Eisenheim's torture and his loss and everything that he was going
through than any character in the paper.

(02:37:15):
They had to set up Marissa Tomei to be sick and everything like that in order to elicit
more from us.
Right.
They really had to do that.
The consequences for what Giamatti went through with the illusionist versus I mean there were
no consequences for the paper and nothing actually happened.
It was a day in the life of.

(02:37:35):
Except that Henry got fired at the end and even though.
I forgot about that.
Yeah he gets fired at the end and it's kind of.
He got his job back.
I just kind of assumed so.
That's the thing they leave that open like yeah we kind of you know.
Because of the conversation with Glenn Close.
Yeah Glenn Close's character does reverse her decision but at no point do we ever actually

(02:37:57):
hear the words okay Henry can come back.
You know as far as we know the movie ends with him being unemployed.
So yeah.
But yeah and that's.
And I didn't really care about it because what happened to him he definitely got himself
he like he got himself fired.
He lost himself that job.
Absolutely.
He was the character that I stand by this every newsroom every magazine every outlet

(02:38:22):
needs.
Right.
A person with high morality and the just perfect integrity.
We as we as the news consumer want someone like Henry in that job even though literally
no one else in the newspaper business wants him there.
Right.
Yeah.
And so you got the one character that you're really rooting for but the rest of the characters

(02:38:44):
you're mostly just entertained by.
Yeah.
Illusionist.
I think you care about and or hate every character that shows up in that movie.
Hmm.
Like that.
I really cared about Giamatti really cared about Eisenheim and man when they got when

(02:39:06):
they got together at the end of that movie my god my heart explodes every time even though
I know it's coming.
Like okay.
All right.
Now I see what you're saying there.
I'm going to let that resonate with you.
I'm going to move on to the second point.
Okay.
Technical win.
Now I am way throwing it to the illusionist on this one because oh my god where did it

(02:39:28):
fail and the paper every machine has a kill switch.
You don't need to find Bill who's in the bathroom.
I did bring this up earlier though.
The illusionist did require the use of CGI for the magic tricks.
That's only to make them better but it did tell the story basically from the perspective

(02:39:50):
of somebody who had never seen that magic trick which basically what we were just talking
about with Independence Day.
We were going away.
Other people are no longer blown away.
That is a fair point.
Pretty much did that to give us the same level of wow that the audience would have.
I feel like it was necessary.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.

(02:40:13):
My recommendation is the paper because it is a perfect film.
But it seems like we is a better winner.
It's a two to one on the illusionist.
That sounds like yes.
And I and I know that hurts.
It really does.
It really really does.

(02:40:33):
Do you have paid the paper now available on Netflix till the end of this month.
Go see it.
The illusionist.
I am not.
I am not slamming the paper in any way.
This round again not fair.
The skeleton key versus remember the Titans.

(02:40:53):
Oh.
Okay.
You know what?
It is a fair fight even though it is pretty obvious who's going to win it.
I wouldn't say it's an absolute.
I wouldn't say it's an absolute knockdown drag out the way.
Well, not the thing because there are people who are going to prefer the skeleton key over
remember the Titans.
But I feel like who you care about more automatically goes to remember the Titans.

(02:41:16):
Absolutely.
It's wildly.
Yeah.
The technical aspect and the skeleton key did a great job.
They really did.
I mean, it's a close, close, close call, which actually now I think about it.
I was going to say because of how well polished remember the Titans was I was going to say
it was going to give you the remember the Titans.

(02:41:38):
But now I'm remembering the fact that that again, there were more risks in skeleton key
with the flashbacks to when the hanging took place and the fake bog so that they could
shoot in a bog without having to worry about their actors getting eaten.
You know, these were these were big deals.
You know, I mean, like but placing all the actors, the town, the vehicles, everything

(02:42:04):
in remember the Titans actually in the 60s.
Yeah, that is an achievement.
Hell of an achievement.
Period pieces are a hell of a thing.
That's for sure.
Especially being willing to actually destroy a 1950s classic like that in that car accident.
Yeah.
Yeah, not even a huge car guy.
And that hurt me.
No, I but really the big argument here is does remember the Titans win three for three

(02:42:34):
because really that's.
Yeah.
OK, because he is definitely get the recommendation nod for sure.
Yeah.
But you know, I mean, that's that's what's kind of like to sit there and say, like, pick
one over the other one where there's so many of these that it's like, why do you have to
choose?
They're both so good.
You know, like that is kind of mean because it's literally what we set out to do.

(02:42:59):
This might have this might have been a bad idea.
We're going to find out when we see which film like makes it to the end.
If it's one that neither of us are expecting, yeah, we did something wrong.
So let's let's see what happens here.
All right.
So let's just let's let's let's figure this out because I do want to throw the skeleton
key some love and I want but I kind of want to give it the technical win.

(02:43:24):
And remember the title.
It was telling a period piece about racism and man, it crushed it.
Yeah.
But you know what?
Here's the thing.
It was polished.
It was again, like you mentioned before, this was a Disney film.
And so as as solid as it was, as as as well done as it was, as technically perfect as

(02:43:46):
it was as a period piece cinematography was, it was it did have that that sort of Disney
polish on it.
OK, that sort of little that little bit of a pixie dust fantasy, not quite as gritty
as it really could have been kind of thing.
Whereas Skeleton Key was right in the muck in in in both literal and figurative sense.

(02:44:08):
So fair.
All right.
I'll give you that.
So remember, the Titans has taken taken it.
Yeah, definitely thrown the skeleton keys and love for sure.
Toys be tombstone.
Oh no.
Oh no.

(02:44:30):
What have we done?
What have we wrought?
Yeah, that's that's.
I'm not proud of this one.
No, no, I don't.
I don't want to say, oh man.
The first dog.
That's like that's like that.

(02:44:51):
That's like that scene from Dark Knight where he's like breaks the pool cue in half and
says like we have one position and throws the weapon in front of two guys.
But instead of those two guys, it's your children.
That's what this feels like.
I see that.
I feel that.
I don't want to do this one either.
Who do we care?
Who did we care about more like the herbs, holidays, what happened with the cowboys or

(02:45:17):
Robin and Robin?
I go with Robin and Robin on this one.
I got it.
See, the thing the thing is, Tombstone is the story about basically America's first
attempt of gun control.
It's not really about the people.
It's about what happened at the OK Corral and when they tried to take the cowboys guns
away in city limits and the retaliation that came from the cowboys.

(02:45:41):
Sure.
Not about the people.
It is a like a legend was there and Wyatt Earp is an American legend flat out.
True.
Toys actually is character driven.
Yes.
It is wildly dependent on their characters.

(02:46:02):
If Robin Williams character wasn't the way he is and his brother's character wasn't
the way he is and his sister wasn't the way she is and his nephew wasn't the way he is,
if not for the very specific type of character motivations that these that these four characters
had this story either doesn't happen or goes in wildly different directions.

(02:46:26):
Agreed.
So I got to give it to toys.
Yeah, I love toys.
Love Tombstone.
Hate doing this.
Yeah, no, I which one succeeded technically.
I'm going to fight for Tombstone.
You know, I'm going to have to go with Tombstone on this one too.
Okay, thank God.
Yeah, as much as I as much as I do love the visuals when it comes to toys, there were

(02:46:51):
a couple of scenes where it did come off a little unintentionally hokey and it just didn't
get it.
Well, exactly.
Yeah.
And so nothing in Tombstone did not age.
Correct.
Yep.
Now for the recommendation, the perfect Western that happens to be a true story featuring

(02:47:15):
some of the greatest actors of the 90s versus a movie that was giving a political message
as a warning, which came true anyway, told in such a weirdly storybook but also kind

(02:47:35):
of psychotic way, a story, a form of visual and emotional filmmaking that I don't think
I've seen since.
Is there any other movie that you can think of that you could say strikes the same tone
as toys?
We have already talked about 45 movies and some of them twice.

(02:47:58):
There's no way I'm gonna be able to think of one right now.
Fair, fair, fair.
I withdraw the question, Your Honor.
But I'm sure there is, there's gotta be, but it didn't have Robin Williams.
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Except we don't know that yet.
Let's talk in a hundred years after and then we'll talk about Bicentennial Man.

(02:48:18):
Oh, okay.
All right.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
We don't know how ahead of its time that movie was.
That could have been a hundred years ahead of its time.
Boy, that'd be nice.
Could be.
And we got, so Tombstone.

(02:48:39):
That's where I, I mean, like if I'm giving a recommendation, I gotta recommend the perfect
Western.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
And toys is-
It reigns supreme of its genre.
I mean, it's-
And there are, there are, I can count them on one hand, but I can think of people I wouldn't
recommend toys to because they probably hate it.
Oh, agreed.
Agreed.
Yeah.

(02:49:00):
I think Tombstone, I think it like people who don't like Westerns would like Tombstone.
No, it's for sure.
Yeah.
100%.
All right.
That, that, that hurt.
I didn't like that.
All right.
But that does officially put us in the semifinals.
Oh, we're fighting.

(02:49:21):
I didn't come here to fight.
The first round of the semifinals is the 13th warrior versus bound.
Oh no.
There were no sex scenes in the 13th warrior.
How could you even, how could you-

(02:49:42):
The 13th warrior didn't need sex scenes.
How am I gonna fight this one?
This is when the fighting gets dirty because we're going this deep in.
All right.
Like, bound had characters that we straight up didn't give a shit about.

(02:50:06):
Characters that popped in, popped out, and we're just there for a little bit of star
power.
Mostly Mickey.
Wow.
Okay, hold on.
I don't think, no, I mean, even, even though they were, they were kind of cast as star
power and they did kind of pop in and there were no characters that were not integral

(02:50:29):
to the story.
Even that, that fucking wormy guy that came in, you know, while, you know, what's his
name?
That is true.
Freddie, Freddie or something like that.
Could not, could not tell you.
Way too early.
Yeah.
The guy, the guy, the guy that Jennifer Tilley is sleeping with before she starts sleeping
with Gina Gershon, the fact that the fact that Gina Gershon sees him come in kind of

(02:50:52):
sets this whole thing.
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you for bringing that up.
So in bound, we have characters who are nasty, who are trying to screw each other over.
The whole movie is a premise over, um, the femme fatale finally succeeding.
Like she actually wins, pulls one over, everything like that.

(02:51:14):
There are no good guys in this movie.
Sure.
13th warrior, there are no bad guys in that movie.
Okay.
Okay.
Like all of our characters are heroes except that prince.
Right.
Like the prince was the only crappy one.
Every man, woman and child in the 13th warrior was an example of bravery.

(02:51:35):
Storytelling that came up out of every single aspect of that.
The boy who stood on the ship to let the Vikings see him so they know that he's not a ghost.
Um, the adaptation from Beowulf into a potential real world adaptation that could have happened.
Right.
Like awesome.

(02:51:56):
All of those aspects, when you're going story versus story, I really think the 13th warrior
actually brings that like brings more heat to it because it is action on top of historic
like pseudo historical drama on top of the like theologies mixing from multiple cultures.

(02:52:17):
That is awesome.
I mean, okay, you're not you're not wrong here, but that is the difference I would say
between what we have is, you know, 13th warrior is an epic historical piece.
That is what it is.
And that's what it was meant to be.
And it does pull that off well, while as bound was supposed to be a smaller, more intimate

(02:52:44):
tiny story that takes place essentially almost entirely in two apartments, one and a half,
really considering one of them is not furnished, you know.
I mean, like the best parts of that movie take place there, but there are quite a few
different other scenes and none of the characters, like none of the characters, every character

(02:53:04):
in that movie sucked.
But they sucked with a purpose.
And that's where and that's where you have a fight.
Right.
Like, but trying to come up with that concept over which one you actually care about more,
because like Jennifer Tilly tricks you into caring for her the same way she tricked Gina

(02:53:29):
Gershon into caring for the same way that presumably she tricked Joey Pants into caring
for her and the guy that she lured in first who was supposed to steal the money, but she
tricked Gina Gershon into it.
Like right.
Like Gina Gershon's character.
I felt for her.
I cared for her.

(02:53:50):
I cared about her.
Oh bad for Joey Pants.
His character, even though he was a dick, he was getting completely played and everything
like that.
And I understand that was the point of it.
But you know, still, you know, you got a soft spot for the person getting gaslit.
You know, you can't really help that.
Sure.
It was the perfect femme fatale film.

(02:54:13):
Absolutely.
But I didn't care about any of them, really.
I cared about Ahmed and I cared about Dennis Storhoy's character.
Like when he was facing off against that big redhead and you thought for a second that

(02:54:33):
he might die.
Right.
Okay.
I was worried.
I did care about the characters that this movie wanted me to care about.
And the stakes.
Oh my god, the stakes in the 13th were much, much higher.
That's true.
Okay.
But I guess it is how you feel about those stakes.
Yeah.
See, and that's it's a tough one for me to say, considering like I saw the 13th Warrior

(02:54:58):
for the first time just just for this show.
And so I kind of want to sit here and go like, yeah, but it sticks with you.
It's like Bound is a movie that I saw for the first time 30 years ago.
And it's still like, I can't stop thinking about it sometimes whenever anybody whenever
people are talking about movies that they love.

(02:55:19):
I'm like, oh, who here has seen Bound?
Nobody because it's always nobody.
So here's the thing, like when you go in with like the recommendations, stuff like that,
I may recommend Bound to the right person.
I would recommend the 13th Warrior to every person.
Gina Gershon's acting in Bound so stiff.

(02:55:45):
And even like even like a lot of reports like lesbians who like do reviews on it and stuff
like that.
They're like, it was a straight woman acting like what she thinks a lesbian is like pretty
much everybody has the same problem with that.
Like the acting little rocky.
Okay.
Jennifer Tilley's voice constantly perfect.

(02:56:08):
Some of the like some of the insistences that went into the film Bound will land with the
right audience.
With the wrong audience, it'll take them out of the film because you cast extras and yes,
it doesn't reflect real life, but you cast extras to be part of the background so they
perfectly mesh in.

(02:56:29):
When you cast extras to be seen, it kind of messes with the flow of the film.
Okay.
Here's the thing.
I am fully well aware of why Bound is definitely going to lose on the technical side.
So I feel like I really need to defend the story, especially considering how like, yeah,

(02:56:56):
story wise 20 years later, this movie sticks with me.
And it's not that there was anything wrong with 13th Warrior.
It's just I don't feel myself needing to deconstruct the nuances of the 13th Warrior as much as
I do with Bound.
There is a lot more meat on the bones when it comes to Bound, in my opinion.

(02:57:17):
There's a lot more to work with there.
There's a lot more to argue about in Bound than that.
That to me kind of gives it more life.
And so story Bound.
Technical, 13th Warrior.

(02:57:37):
Because I will concede the fact that there was a lot of experimental shit going on in
Bound that wasn't perfected yet.
Because as we discussed before, it was their practice run for the Matrix.
Right.
It was them proving that they had the stones to handle the Matrix.
Exactly.
Yep.
That might be the worst way.

(02:57:58):
I did not realize it.
I don't think I could have chosen a worse way to describe the gumption that they would.
Wow.
Wow.
That is either going to be the most popular clip or what gets you canceled.
I didn't just drop one ball.
I think I dropped four balls on that one.

(02:58:19):
Oh, dude.
And he doubles down.
I'm already in it.
So for the recommendation, like which one that I would actually recommend to the general
audiences, to the LGBTQ plus community, I think I got all the letters out.

(02:58:43):
To literally everybody, the 13th Warrior.
I mean, for sure, the 13th Warrior is for a bigger audience.
There is.
It's not as narrow of an audience.
I think some people would think, but it is a narrower audience than the 13th Warrior.
It was even marketed as horror and it's not even horror.

(02:59:05):
That's true.
And that is why a lot of people didn't see it is because they didn't want to see a horror
movie, but it's not horror.
Right.
Or if it is, it's like horror light.
Yep.
It's more of one of those movies that seems like it's a ghost story, but then turns out
it's not.
But they could have marketed it.
Yeah.

(02:59:25):
They could have marketed as that because that's not an unknown genre.
But yeah, you're right.
For some reason, they went full on.
Let's make it a horror movie when it didn't need to be for sure.
Well, I mean, the book was titled Eaters of the Dead.
And when they were marketing it, it was first marketed as a horror movie.
And I mean, the fact that it was kind of mixed marketing was a big part of why it didn't
succeed.
Also coming out the same weekend as the Sixth Sense, when like all the early reviews are

(02:59:51):
like, it's going to blow your mind.
Yeah, that was a that was a time.
All right.
So 13th.
Thirteenth warrior.
I concede.
I do feel bad, but now you get to have some pretty hardcore revenge on this one.
Oh, really?
What do we got next?

(03:00:12):
Next we have Candyman versus Dragonheart.
So no matter what, I have to choose between something I love and something I love.
Yeah, I'm not I'm not 100 percent invested in either of these.
I.
Good.
Yeah.
All right.
So which one is the better story?
I mean, you know, if it puts you in a position that you've got to think a little bit about

(03:00:35):
your fight, I think that's kind of fun.
Well, you know, let me think here.
Story wise, I well, OK, they both had they both were pretty good at fleshing out their
backstory and the history of this world that brings them to where they are in this moment.

(03:00:55):
They both did that pretty well.
But again, this brings me to how, like I said before, there were things about Dragonheart
which I could definitely see the potential there, what they were trying to do it just
in the moment when I was watching it, it felt like it was falling flat and I couldn't put
my finger on why.
I never got that feeling with with Candyman with Candyman.

(03:01:17):
They made everything like everything nailed itself right on the head.
So I would.
Yeah, I would call Candyman storytelling practically perfect.
Yeah.
So I'm going to go with I'm going to go with Candyman on that one based off of hazy memories
story wise.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Virginia Madsen's character like and oh my God, how bad I felt so bad for Bernadette.

(03:01:41):
Like I was not at all happy when Bernadette died.
No, that really rough.
And then oh my God, what happened to that dog?
No.
Yeah.
OK.
The technical aspect, I really we still got to give it to Candyman because I mean, literally
like we talked about earlier with the crane shot and the bees.
How do you beat the bees?

(03:02:03):
That's the thing is like when it comes to technical Candyman is going to run away with
it every time because of those goddamn bees.
And for recommendation, I think the backstory behind the character of Candyman actually
like three for three.
I think Candyman wins this one.
And I was going to say, you know, it's like and I mean, don't forget that the as far as

(03:02:24):
recommendation goes, Candyman spawned a whole like series of movies.
It's a franchise, except apparently there is a Dragonheart franchise too that I had
neither of us.
Neither of us had seen.
And I did put out a poll on the YouTube channel and a lot of people responded to that one.
And yeah, yeah.
John Connery got the favorite dragon.

(03:02:46):
Way more people voted for that one than I really expected.
And the other ones got a lot of votes too.
Oh yeah.
OK.
Yeah.
Like the one that Helena Bonham Carter played, Sylvie or something like that.
That was interesting.
Yeah.
And I actually took a look at the dragon.
It doesn't look bad.
I don't know how their effects went, but most things, the effects did not get better.

(03:03:09):
Oh, that's just sad.
So Dragonheart, goodbye.
All right.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I'm having fun with the semifinals, man.
And next up is Independence Day.
Versus.

(03:03:30):
Master and commander.
Damn.
I'm not feeling too good about this one.
Hmm.
Story wise, which one wins?
Independence Day or Master and Commander?
I'm thinking Master and Commander.
I mean, my initial.
Yeah.

(03:03:51):
I mean, like that's my gut feeling, but that's a but I'm not 100% sure on that one because
I think part of it is that.
I mean, Master and Commander had that whole sort of like it was based off of a series
of books, like two specific books in the middle of the series for starters.
And so you've got characters with an already established history that we don't need to

(03:04:16):
catch up on.
We get these characters relationships right away.
Yeah.
And the movie did an incredible job of putting us right in the situation and really making
us feel it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, you've got Independence Day with like eight different stories all going on
simultaneously and none of them are getting confused.

(03:04:37):
It was a good job.
Yeah.
That's a really tough call on this one.
The only thing was when the president's wife died, it didn't hit me the way that I think
the movie wanted it to.
And I don't know if it hit other people.
It's hard.
That's a really good question.
I'm a little curious about that one.

(03:04:57):
Quaid's sacrifice at the end of the movie.
That one hit me here.
The hype of the chase scenes like when Will Smith and Goldblum are running away from the
aliens.
I was like really hyped up like every I know how it's going to end, but I'm really hyped
up with that.
Bill Pullman speech.
I will speak about that speech forever.

(03:05:19):
That always hypes me up.
It damn near brings tears to my eyes.
I love that speech.
That is a good one.
And I care.
And I see the thing is like a master commander.
I was very uncomfortable with the realities that they showed.
But like Bellum, we cared about Bellum because of how much the crew was against him and everything

(03:05:40):
like that.
And the movie did a good job of making us care about him.
But we were more curious over what was going to happen between the relationship of the
commander and the doctor.
That's true, yeah.
I don't know if we really cared about that as much as we were curious.
It was kind of more of just seeing things play out and going, ah, so this is what happens

(03:06:03):
in these situations.
At no point were we sitting there going like, oh, how is this going to affect this?
And can you get out of it?
And like, yeah, we kind of could see it coming a mile away and didn't have any desire to
see it stop.
We just knew what was going to play out.
I think I cared about the characters in Independence Day more than I cared about the characters
in Master Commander.

(03:06:25):
However, the story of that chase when we never even needed to see the captain of the other
vessel, it was so intriguing and we didn't even get half of the story.
Yeah.
Damn, Master and Commander did a good job.
I keep going back and forth.
Every time you open your mouth, I change my mind.

(03:06:48):
It's a rough one.
This is a really rough one.
I'm going to pause on the first question.
I'm going to go to the second one.
OK, the technical win.
I'm fucking that's no easier, man.
No, it really isn't.
So it's like.
So Master and Commander really nailed everything perfectly.

(03:07:09):
Like, like it has been lauded for how perfect it is, how it nailed literally everything
down to when we saw a guy pooping off of the stern of the ship and freezing cold.
And you're just like, oh, my God, just how like the hell.
And like so where you don't really care about any of the specific characters, you do care

(03:07:34):
about all of them.
Yeah, no, that's very true.
Yes.
I think I got to get to Master and Commander.
I think that's the one that I got to push for.
I think I cared more about Master and Commander.
I am so frozen within decision.
I'm going to agree with you on a whim just because I don't want to make a decision myself.
All right.

(03:07:55):
On the technical aspect, Master and Commander absolutely dominated.
But oh, my God, the engine knew like so Master and Commander did an amazing job of being
faithful to reality.
Independence Day did an incredible job of breaking all the ground.
Right.
It's like selling the fantasy slash sci fi of it all and making it realistic.

(03:08:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I don't know.
Weirdly, yeah.
Like, I don't know which one is more impressive.
Like because Master and Commander, they had that ship.
It was a real ship.
It was really in the water.
Yep.
This is I'm going to go with Master and Commander on it.

(03:08:39):
I'm going to go with Master and Commander because it's on the water and not on a green
screen and that's hard.
And that's it.
That's all I've got.
That's all I got.
But those explosions, the practical effects that came with that and how they filmed that
and everything that they did, the ingenuity that came through.

(03:08:59):
I want to give Independence Day the technical win because Master and Commander was very
faithful.
The challenge was how to film while being in restricted spaces of such tight quarters
like that, even though below deck was a set.
Yeah.
That was a set.

(03:09:20):
Independence Day, they built all those sets.
They blew them up and the risks that they had to go through because they only had one
chance at that.
And that's what they did.
And so, I mean, Roland Emmerich, I really want to give him so many props.
But Peter Weary, you were so faithful to history.
Like, I want to give it to Independence Day because inventing things is much harder than

(03:09:46):
following a playbook.
Okay.
I see what you're saying there.
But how perfect Peter Weary did.
You got to stop talking, man.
Because every time you open your mouth, I change my mind.
The movie fight isn't just between me and you, man.

(03:10:07):
Yay!
I want to...
I can't, I can't, I can't.
It has to go to Master and Commander.
It has to.
The technical aspect, it's just how faithful everything was real.
I honestly cannot decide.
They're both right neck and neck for me.
So I'm just not going to put up a fight on either of them and just go with whatever.

(03:10:30):
I am not okay with getting rid of Independence Day.
That hurt.
That hurt.
But this next one is not going to be as tough.
Okay.
All right.
This next round is Requiem for a Dream, which I think we know how you feel about that one.
Versus Secondhand Lions.
Okay.

(03:10:50):
Now we gotta fight on our hands here.
I mean, barely.
How much you think I'm really going to fight here?
Come on, man.
Secondhand Lions is one of my favorite movies.
It's a fantastic movie.
Which one did you care about more?
Yeah, my heart ached for Requiem for a Dream, like all three of the four of the characters.

(03:11:11):
Secondhand Lions, I was invested in everything.
Everybody.
Yeah.
So that goes to Secondhand Lions.
Hands down.
The technical win, man, there's no way I'm going to like, you even if I wanted to fight
for Requiem, I that's not even worth two movies melded into one.

(03:11:32):
I mean, come on.
Yeah.
Secondhand Lions.
That's incredible.
The one I'm recommending.
Secondhand Lions.
It's too easy.
Three for three.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel better.
OK, so we have three.
So which one?
We got to kind of give one of these three a game, just an automatic gimme for the final

(03:11:54):
round.
OK.
And that is Titan.
Remember the Titans Tombstone or the illusionist?
Which ones do you which one do you want to fight over?
Wow.
That's I'm going to say I'm going to say we should give the illusionist the gimme only

(03:12:14):
because I don't see it winning against either one of those movies.
And I do not want to fight out those two movies.
OK, then let's cut the illusionist as like the third runner up and just kind of give
it the third runner up.
Yep.
And then we'll go Titans versus Tombstone.
Oh, man.
Oh, that.
Oh, man.
That is.

(03:12:35):
Oh, man.
That is.
I bet you feel about as good about that as I do based off of how this fight has gone multiple
times already.
These are both and these are both historical pieces.
That's the crazy thing.
These are two based on a true story period pieces.
Oh, so which one did we care about more automatically is going to remember the Titans.

(03:13:00):
We've had that fight.
We've already proven that with Tombstone.
It's got to go like technical aspects.
Yeah, I perfect Western versus what may be the best film I've ever seen on racial segregation,
not slavery, right?
Not this.
Right.

(03:13:20):
Like those are different things.
Even though segregation happened at the same time.
I'm talking two different things.
Right, right, right. I don't know if I can think of a civil rights movie that actually
and hits me just as hard.
Like it is a perfect balance.

(03:13:41):
And it is and it is an interesting perspective to what I found.
And it's one you don't get a lot because usually in these segregation films, you get this sort
of obvious one side versus the other side.
That's not what this movie was about.
This movie was about the people caught in the middle of it who really didn't want to

(03:14:03):
take sides if they could.
You know, they just want they were like, hey, we're not white.
We're not black.
We're a football team.
And then the first how they became that, which was interesting because they were white versus
black until they were forced to spend camp together.
And then they were like, now there's no there's no white.
There's no black.
There's a football team.

(03:14:23):
And then they get back home.
And that's why it's black again.
Right.
And now everyone's telling them, no, you got to pick white and black.
And they're like, oh, shit, like we just went through this and nobody else did.
Like, oh, shit.
Like this is still an issue.
Like we we thought we solved this at camp and no, we didn't.
And which is that's a perspective that is like literally never portrayed in any other

(03:14:50):
movie.
It's always like the revolutionaries versus the the power the the power structure.
And then once it changes, we're good.
Right.
Exactly.
This was not that.
Yeah, exactly.
Constantly people in the mix trying to make things exist and everybody stopping them.

(03:15:10):
Yeah.
Like that was like, I think that.
Yeah, I think that's where I think that's where like Titans kind of wins it out, I think,
because.
But but.
It is the perfect Western.
I mean, and we've talked about this.

(03:15:30):
It has been over 20 years and they have not remade this.
No, that's true.
But I think that's kind of thing because it's like.
Well and like we've talked about this before about like what you mentioned, it is a it
is an American legend.
It is not a accurate story and it's not even about putting a perspective on what happened.

(03:15:54):
It's pretty accurate.
But well, like even you said yourself, this was a thing that like was when we did the
episode was really enlightening to me.
The fact that they whitewash the Cowboys in order to take the racial element out of it.
That changes a lot of the tone and that that is true.
That is true.
And they didn't actually let the Cowboys all be Mexicans.

(03:16:16):
They actually did like they had.
Oh, God was a guy from wings.
He was one of them.
Right.
Thomas Hayden Church.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so that's the thing is like whereas it is the it is the tombstone is the legend version
of the legend.
Whereas remember the Titans remember the Titans.

(03:16:37):
Yeah.
And it gives you a like a new perspective to a very, very, very old argument that for
some reason is still ongoing.
I think I think so.
Remember the Titans win story wise.
I would recommend remember the Titans over tombstone because I think it's a more important

(03:17:01):
film.
I mean, you're not wrong, but God, that is a tough call to make, isn't it?
Like if somebody asked me to pick between these two, I'd say make enough room for both.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's double feature night is what I'd say.
Like absolutely.
But for the context of the finale.
Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to agree.

(03:17:23):
I'm going to have to go with Titans on this one.
Yeah.
All right.
So we got is.
Oh, that hurt in the finals now.
Oh, that wasn't the finals.
Oh, no, that was the semifinals.
I thought that's why we were we were declaring illusionist third place.
No, that's why.
That's why.
No, no, that's why I was saying like whichever one at the one being carried over to the finals.

(03:17:47):
Oh, oh, I chose wrong in that case because because tombstone definitely beats the illusionist,
I'd say.
So we and I and I actually would agree with you there, which is why I let that happen.
That way is on my no way.

(03:18:08):
No, like I mean, like we're doing two American historical pieces.
That makes sense.
OK, all right.
All right.
That was hard.
OK, carry on.
Carry on.
All right.
13th Warrior versus Candyman.
I might need a second to actually collect my thoughts on this one.

(03:18:31):
Yeah.
So who did I care about more?
I would actually say Virginia Madsen's character over Ahmed.
I would.
I feel I feel I feel pretty confident saying that.
OK, actually, the bulk of the characters I cared more about Candyman and came in warrior.

(03:18:53):
OK.
What about you?
I mean, I felt when it came to the story, if we're talking story wise and our investment
in it and the fact that both of these stories were about creating a tension regarding this
undefinable threat and the attempt to do something about it.

(03:19:17):
And you've got Ahmed, who's kind of like dealing with that on top of a fish out of water problem
and the fact that he doesn't even speak the language at first at first.
Yeah.
So we've got we've got this basically the idea is building of tension against a threat
and how it's going to be dealt with between those two.
I was more invested in Candyman.

(03:19:41):
Agreed.
Even even even as I am not a horror fan and was intentionally like, you know, kind of
taking a step back on this one, I was I was, you know, playing SimCity on my phone at the
same time.
So I didn't like, you know, freak out too much.
Oh, right.
I remember you saying that.
Yeah.
And even then, I was more invested in in Candyman, even with half watching it than I was giving

(03:20:09):
my full attention to to 13th Warrior.
So OK, I'm going to get I'm going to give it to Candyman on that one.
That's fair.
I'm not I'm not going to fight too hard because.
Yeah, it's technical when.
I have to fight for 13th Warrior.
Oh, really?
Candyman did incredible, like the bees, everything like that.

(03:20:31):
But the fact that the crane was in that shot.
The.
That's like the.
That's where we move.
That's a technically perfect movies.
The one that had the one flaw is going to lose it because because they're so close to
how it has to go.
Because the way that they did the 13th Warrior, where the Vikings armor was actually eclectic
and came from all over the world in different regions, you had the Scottish Warrior wearing

(03:20:55):
a kilt.
You had the guy who was the captain of all the Vikings.
He was wearing a Roman Warrior's helmet.
That was an attention to detail that I thought was absolutely astounding.
There there's no boom, Mike.
There's no mistakes like that.
No, it's set was so real that Dennis Stroy Hoy almost died while he was doing that escape

(03:21:19):
the cave underwater scene.
Oh, right.
I forgot about that.
Oh, it's still it's still like irks me every time I think about it.
Like, God, it gets me too, man.
Like.
And the fact that they used broadswords and how they use the broadswords, the fact that
Ahmed was able to sharpen down his blade to create a more accurate weapon from the.

(03:21:49):
Abbasid al Khalifaid like right.
Right.
And the attention to detail, the technical aspects like yes, Candyman.
Great.
The painting was really not that good and he was supposed to be like this epic, amazing
world class painter and all this stuff.
And I'm like, somebody's ego got a little big on this.

(03:22:11):
Sure.
OK.
I mean, that is that is that I mean, at this point, we're in the finals.
I'm nitpicking, God damn it.
Oh, sure.
OK.
Yeah, I'll give you that.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that I have to give that to the 13th warrior on the technical aspect.
OK.
All right.
So that brings it down to the recommendation is done.

(03:22:32):
And honestly, I don't know where to go on this one because.
I mean, I mentioned before that we have to speak for general audience.
OK.
But so here's the thing.
Candyman is such a good horror movie.
That's the thing.
It worked on a non horror movie fan.
It is there are.

(03:22:54):
There are horror movies that transcend their genre.
They are a good movie first, and they just happen to be a horror movie.
You know, Candyman is one of them.
Candyman is is is a and a story above its, you know, above its station.

(03:23:15):
I don't know why I'm saying the like, I don't know why I'm saying like horror is some like
slums of moviemaking.
That's not what I mean to say.
No, but but for.
When you're speaking for general audiences, most of them, most people don't go to horror.
Right.
That's true.
Well, but it's like, OK, it's like we talked before, like like Independence Day.

(03:23:38):
All right.
Technically, Independence Day is a sci fi movie.
There is nobody who wouldn't enjoy that movie, even if they're not a sci fi fan.
I agree.
OK.
Candyman is that kind of movie.
You don't have to be a horror fan to like Candyman.
It is by and large in and of itself a solid and they're both and they both play with the

(03:24:03):
aspects of pseudo history as well.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, interestingly, yeah.
It's like you've got 13th Warrior, which is a like a retelling of this Beowulf legend
basically putting under the theory of what if these events really happened?
They just got through oral history translated over time into this epic legend of monsters

(03:24:29):
and demons and stuff like that.
I know that's not what happened in Beowulf, but bear with me here.
And but in Beowulf, he bites Grendel underwater for like seven days or something.
It's fair point.
Yeah.
But meanwhile, Candyman is taking that sort of like how ancient legends become the legends

(03:24:54):
and putting that in the modern day of the creation of a new legend kind of idea.
OK.
So like I don't know if I'm saying that right.
Yeah, like how superstitions become how how something even in modern or technical times
we can still have that legendary horror and superstition come to life.

(03:25:18):
That it's not something that just that all those all the superstitions and and and the
legends that we know of today had to have started somewhere.
There's no reason why they can't start a new now as well.
So where where do you put like which one comes out on top?
I don't know.

(03:25:38):
You are not good at this movie fighting shit.
Now once we got to the finals.
Yeah, you know what?
Listen, man, is that I'm you know, sometimes sometimes the deconstruction of a film makes
it difficult to say one is better than the other.
That's why I haven't said that I have a favorite film in like 30 years, because, you know,

(03:26:00):
there's some that you can't compare like that on the technical aspect.
It goes to The 13th Warrior.
Which one we cared about more.
It goes to Candyman.
Which one I'm going to recommend or.
It's going to be The 13th Warrior.
That's the one that I'm going to recommend to everybody.

(03:26:21):
Candyman if so this thing, if you are not truly fascinated by beautiful storytelling and you're
only half paying attention, Candyman ain't going to work.
Like it worked on you because you were like trying to pay attention.
But that's the thing.
It transcends as a horror film and it transcends this genre.

(03:26:45):
If you listen and if you watch closely and really pay attention to the like what's going
on in the lore and everything that's being explained to you.
If you don't, the movie ain't going to hit you as well.
No, it's true.
It is The 13th Warrior.
Yeah, you know, I'm going to.
Yeah.
All right.
Oh, thank God.

(03:27:05):
I'm getting I'm getting forward.
That was that killed me.
Oh, oh my God.
So this is what this is what this is the finals we're in right now.
This is the finals.
After this we have there's only three left.
And on this round, it is going to be Master and Commander versus secondhand lions.

(03:27:27):
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Why?
That's mean.
Why?
This one is rough.
I don't like this one.
Oh, man.
Secondhand lions is so good.
But so was Master and Commander.
All right.
Which one did we care about more?
We've been over this three times now.

(03:27:48):
It is secondhand lions.
Yep, secondhand lions.
Yep.
Between the two of these, we care more about the characters and secondhand lions.
We know this.
Yep.
Now for that technical aspect.
Oh, here's been the big battle so far.
Here's been the real struggle.
Perfect adaptation from history.
Perfect melding of two different genres into one film.

(03:28:09):
Yeah.
I'm going to have to go with Master and Commander on this one.
As much as I love secondhand lions, I am astounded by what Peter Weir did.
Yeah.
I got to give that to Master and Commander as well.
But I think that one.
To me, that the deal breaker, the tie breaker on that one, what makes the you know, because

(03:28:30):
they're so amazing, what gets it is that the technical perfection of Master and Commander
is more obvious.
Okay.
The technical perfection of secondhand lions, you kind of have to be a little bit of a film
nerd to notice what they pull off.
I will give you that.

(03:28:52):
That is true.
Yeah.
So the one I'm going for, which one I would recommend, is secondhand lions.
I don't think there's a single person that that movie is not going to work on.
No, I agree.
Yeah.
No, I agree.
Master and Commander, there might be some people.
I don't know who they are.

(03:29:12):
I don't know where they are.
But there might be some people who don't love this movie.
Right.
Yeah.
There are there are some people who can't like I know, like I said before, I'm not a
boat movie person.
I'm not a boat guy.
There are some people who cannot watch boat movies because just watching people on boats
make them seasick.
Those people will not want to see this.

(03:29:33):
That is true.
That is very, very true.
And there's also what kind of movie you want to sit down for.
There's not like there's not an occasion you won't you wouldn't want to feel what secondhand
lions makes you feel.
Correct.
Master and Commander, I feel like you've got to be in the right mood.
That's true.
There are moments of that that are kind of rough.

(03:29:54):
You got to make sure you're prepared for it.
You don't have to be prepared for anything in secondhand lions.
No, you just got to be ready to love it.
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
So Master and Commander, I did not think you would go, but I am surprised it put up a good
fight for sure.
Oh, oh, man.
OK, so secondhand lions versus the 13th warrior.

(03:30:16):
This is it.
No, no, no, no.
It's the winner from this and the winner from the next one.
That is the championship round.
OK, honestly, man, like eight finals, sixth finals.
I didn't want to keep going that.
So I just did like whatever the final.
The finals were just going to be the last few.
So which one do we care about more?
Secondhand lines.
It's not a contest.

(03:30:38):
No, it really isn't.
Yeah.
The technical win.
Wait, hold on.
Sorry.
I think I forgot what movie was up against secondhand lions.
13th Warrior.
13th Warrior.
Right.
OK, then yeah, yeah.
I second that again.
Yes.
Secondhand lions gets it.
The technical aspect.
Oh, God.
I think 13th Warrior might take this one.
I think 13th Warrior.

(03:30:59):
Yeah.
Which one?
I'm shocked.
I'm shocked.
That's the first time I wasn't immediately on secondhand lions.
No, but I do agree with you, but we've gone into it so many times already.
I don't think we need to read.
Yeah.
But the recommendation now.
Oh, I'm going to go secondhand lions for that one.
I would go 13th Warrior because just like there's not like there is no time that I would

(03:31:23):
not be in the mood for secondhand lions.
There's no time I wouldn't be in the mood for 13th Warrior.
It is action.
It is comedy.
It is.
It is got it all.
And so does secondhand lions.
As you see, there's a thing, like I said before, secondhand lions is the kind of movie that
I think is not only not only is it good and lovable and important to such a degree that

(03:31:44):
I that I said, you know, if you are a parent, you must show this movie to kids.
I don't feel that way at all.
There's no real importance on the 13th Warrior.
That is.
And secondhand lions.
Goodbye 13th Warrior.
The 13th Warrior has been taken down by the McCann brothers.

(03:32:07):
It lasted.
It lasted.
It lasted a long time.
It really did.
I'm impressed.
Kind of annoyed.
I didn't like the movie that much.
But my picks are in the finals.
Are any of the movies that I brought to the show in the finals?
Oh, but this game is rigged.

(03:32:28):
But only one of mine made it to the finals is making it or is making it to the championship.
Tombstone was an audience.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
I forgot about that.
The illusionist versus secondhand lions.
Which one did we care about more?
Secondhand lions.

(03:32:49):
I'm going to tell you right off the bat, I'm secondhand lions across the board on this
one.
And it's not an easy thing, but it's true.
Well, I'm going to fight I'm going to fight you on it.
Because the thing that you really have been singing secondhand lions praise for on the
melding of the two film styles, right in the flashback for Eisenheim when he was a child.

(03:33:11):
All that is right.
That was even something I pointed out about how they did the two.
Oh my god.
So the thing that you have been fighting for in secondhand lions is actually still a part
of the illusionist as well.
Oh, and they did do it really well in the illusionist too.
Like it blew me away how well it worked in there.
I forgot about that.

(03:33:32):
Oh no.
So the technical aspect, I think I'm going to give it to the illusionist because the
tricks that they brought into the movie, like far outweighed secondhand lions.
Okay, sure.
All right.
But the performance is like who we cared about.
It's the same line.
I mean, the performances every day.

(03:33:53):
But secondhand lions, absolutely incredible.
I'm still going to say that on the third bit on recommendation, I'm still going secondhand
lions as much as I would recommend illusionist to a lot of people.
I would say secondhand lions beats it.
I'll agree with it.
I will.
I will.
I love the illusionist.
I absolutely do.

(03:34:15):
Secondhand lions, but we're going for general audiences here.
And I think secondhand lions is the one that more people would just love.
Yeah.
All right.
So now, now it actually is the championship round.
And are you, are you going to have time?
Like I'm wondering if to build like the tree so we can see an illustration of how this

(03:34:37):
went down to actually like do the, you know, everything at the bottom and what, what went
up to finally the top, because I'm curious to know at what point, you know, how quickly
all of the movies that I brought to the show got, got eliminated.
Like when was the, what was the last round?
That was one of mine is what I want to know.
I think bound.
I think bound was the one that made it.
I think that was.

(03:34:57):
Yeah.
And it, yeah.
I think you're right.
So this one, bunch of savages in this town, I tell you, remember the Titans versus secondhand
lions.
Here's the championship round.
This is the, this is the final one.
But I don't know, man.

(03:35:17):
Three questions, which one did like, which one brought a story and characters we cared
about more, which one like surpass the other from the technical aspects of what they get
pulled off, what it was trying to do better.
And then which one would we recommend to future audiences over the other?

(03:35:38):
These are hard.
I don't know.
I don't know if I have an answer for any of these questions when it comes to these two
movies.
It's a rough one.
Now, remember the Titans going through, again, the historical aspects, segregation, the true
story, you know what?
The true story might actually be the thing.

(03:35:59):
Right.
And the fact, yeah.
And it is that, like I said before, that, that perspective of it that we almost never
get that makes it that much more important to kind of like understand that how that story
folds out.
And there's no, and there's, there is no character.
And remember the Titans, you don't either absolutely love or absolutely hate.

(03:36:20):
Even the ones that, I mean, other than like the guys from the, the, the bowling committee
or the bowling commission, the football league where they, they screw them over the hall
of fame thing.
Right.
Yeah.
Other than those guys, even all the other, like, like the, the girlfriend who bricks
up with them because she's like, you know, she's like, I can't believe you're hanging
out with black people.

(03:36:40):
And he's like, they're not black people.
They're my teammates.
What do you want me to do?
And then, but then you kind of like, it's heartbreak.
You don't hate her.
You just heart your bricks for how, for how wrong she is, you know?
Yeah.
And then she does.
That's a good way to put that.
Yeah.
And, and, um, but she does come around, you know, at the end, you know, and I think that

(03:37:01):
that's kind of, so yeah, it's a really, really, really tough call, but yeah, I think, I think
I think the true story nature makes like the Titans.
Yeah.
The technical aspect.
Well, I think again, interestingly, um, we've got the Disney polish on both of these movies,

(03:37:23):
don't we?
Cause I don't know.
It's a Disney movie.
I didn't think, I don't think, I don't think it is, but it feels, it feels like it has
the Disney polish.
I mean, yeah.
And it's got that Spielberg Ian thing.
I'm always talking about in the, uh, the storytelling part of it, but in and of itself has that
kind of like spit shine to it.
Um, so, but that I don't think, but that's the thing is I think with, uh, with, with

(03:37:51):
remember the Titans, it's, it's hard to say because part of having that, that Disney polish
to it is kind of what helps make it a family movie.
Makes it the kind of movie that you can with, even with all the hard subject matter to it,
it's safe to show to your kids because it's got the Disney polish on it.

(03:38:12):
But at the same time, it kind of does a little disservice to how raw this history truly is.
It is, it is a bit whitewashed, but that is how they were eight tell the story.
Exactly.
They don't do that anymore.
Yeah.
And that, and that's why a lot less, a lot less white people watch like movies about racism

(03:38:37):
because it's harder.
Yeah.
And, and, and I mean, it's supposed to be hard.
It's real, but at the same time, I think it does a bit of a disservice because it actually
pushes people away from being able to really process it.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, with secondhand lions, that spit shine on both versions of the story was very

(03:39:00):
intentional and, and lent to the story in the way it was supposed to.
So then the toss toss a little bit extra on there.
You got the child actors, like our houses, Haley Joel Osment versus Hayden Panettiere.
Then you have, wow.
Yeah.

(03:39:20):
Terry kind of kind of beats Osment's ass on that one.
Unfortunately, I gotta say that I'm absolutely going to agree with that.
Then you have the older powerhouses where you have Michael Caine and Robert Duvall versus
Denzel Washington.
Well, Patton.
Yeah.
Obviously Michael Caine and Duvall.

(03:39:42):
Patton and Duvall kind of playing the same character almost in their, in the way, in
the way they're kind of the way that kind of always talking about everything this way
and raw, raw, raw, raw, raw, raw, raw, you know, like they're, they're kind of doing
the same thing.
I will agree with that.
Yeah.
Man.
I, I want to give it to.

(03:40:04):
I'm leaning towards lions on this one.
I'm leaning pretty hard on lions for this one.
It is, it is, it is a close, close call.
I want to give it to lions as well.
It is, it is wild.
Like I almost said remember the Titans, but I want to give it to second hand lions.
Yep.
Is that, is that two for two on, on second hand lions?

(03:40:25):
No.
Remember the Titans.
Oh, that's right.
This was the true story.
That's right.
That's right.
So we literally do have to decide which one we'd recommend more.
I was really hoping we didn't have to do that.
The importance of remember the Titans makes me want to recommend it more.
I agree.
But the sheer significance and just the absolute joy of second hand lions makes it so.

(03:40:49):
Well let's think both of these movies were the, these are the two movies that I said
out of all the movies that we watched in this series, these were the two that I said, if
you have kids, you have to show them to your kids.
That's true.
That is, that is true.
That's, that's, that's amazing.
Like I'm glad that they didn't go against each other earlier on.

(03:41:09):
Right.
That, but that is kind of a thing.
Like it went this way because the movies got matched up the way they did.
It may not have wound up this way if it went another way.
Probably yeah.
Which is kind of, which is kind of fun how that goes.
I am giving it to remember the Titans.
What about you?
The true story aspect.
It takes it.

(03:41:29):
It takes it.
It makes me care and it makes me want to push other people to care too.
Yeah.
But see, the thing is, and it's not that you're wrong.
It's not that I disagree.
It's because for that exact same reason, for the exact same reason that you're saying when
it comes to the, the, the, that getting people to think about our racial history and our

(03:41:56):
race relations, secondhand lion does the same thing when it comes to masculinity and manhood.
As true they're like, Ooh, I mean, they literally both are important lessons that we are still
struggling with in our society today that need to be addressed and need to be thought
about.

(03:42:16):
I feel like we're getting better with the racism.
Some people are getting better with racism.
Some people are getting better at racism.
It's a wild time.
It's a work in progress.
Yeah.
Always is.
The toxic masculinity thing is getting worse.
I have seen shades of improvement.
I heavily disagree.

(03:42:37):
I heavily disagree.
You go back 60 years, you read books, like all the old guy, you talk about like all the
toxic masculine, like what we call now toxic masculinity.
You go back and read books from 50, 60, 70 years ago.
They knew back then the ones who were acting like toxic, like what we call toxic masculinity
now, they knew them to be jackasses.

(03:42:59):
The fools who like, you know what happens when you go looking for a fight?
You find like all of that, like no, all of those cliches of lessons over not to be hotheaded
and all of this.
Right.
They were taught the same lessons.
No, no toxic masculinity.
I feel like that's getting worse.
I feel like because after our more right.

(03:43:22):
Yeah.
After this time.
Okay.
Remember the Titans.
So you're going to remember the Titans.
I'm going to remember the Titans.
And I am happy with the fact that secondhand lions made it all the way to the second rank.
You know what?
It deserves a spot.
I'm yeah.
I concede for no reason other than I cannot, I cannot decide.

(03:43:43):
And so because you've decided I'm not going to fight you on it.
That's it.
That's all I've got.
Yeah.
But what that does mean.
It means none of my movies made it to the finals.
And that means y'all are a bunch of cultural neanderthals.

(03:44:05):
The champion, the champion film of our first season, season one of heist.
Remember the Titans.
Yes.
Remember the Titans.
Oh God.
I love this movie.
It's so good.
It was absolutely incredible.
Cannot wait.
Ladies and gentlemen, we will be back in about four weeks, maybe sooner if we get bored.

(03:44:30):
Probably will be sooner because I will get bored.
But we're also going to do some special bonus episodes.
And in between now and when we come back, we're going to do some coverage over Doc's
first four books that have been published.
And we're going to we're going to dive in on those a little bit.

(03:44:51):
So until season two.
Thanks.
Honestly, I mean, you guys, you gave us an incredible first season.
Like we are much further ahead than we were expecting.
Absolutely.
You guys.
Thank you.
You know, and I'm I'm giving this quite a bit of praise here.
And just like the most ironic thing, Doc did not want to see Remember the Titans.

(03:45:19):
I know.
I know.
For years, for decades, he did not want to watch this movie.
Let that be a lesson.
Let that be a lesson.
Let that be a lesson to everyone out there.
You think you think you know what you're going to walk into with a movie and you decide before
you even see it, what it's going to be.
Sometimes half the time you're you're wrong.

(03:45:41):
It'll catch you.
Yeah.
All right, guys, we'll see you for season two.
Go see the paper.