Episode 9: Hope Beyond Heartbreak: Stefanie’s Story of Infant Loss and Healing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I can't even imagine.

(00:06):
Have you heard those words and thought to yourself, neither can I?
But it happened.
You lived it.
But most importantly, you survived it.
We hear you, we see you, and we're here to talk about it.
We're two moms, lifelong best friends, and we've both experienced traumatic life-altering
events involving our children.
Disclaimer, today's episode features a story involving infant death.

(00:34):
Welcome to episode nine of I Can't Even Imagine.
I'm Victoria.
And I'm Stephanie.
I really want to start making bread again.
I was dabbling in it a couple of years ago, but I cannot keep up with sourdough.
I cannot do it.
I want to make sourdough, and I want to make sourdough.

(00:54):
I want to make sourdough, but I'm terrible about keeping the starter alive.
Which what Anthony Bardane called Feed the Bitch.
I know.
I think he said Feed the Bitch.
To listen to his book, like probably, I don't know, eight years ago maybe?
I was painting my grandmother's house, and I was listening to his book.

(01:16):
It was right when I first got into audiobooks.
Anyways, it was a great book, still, while he was alive.
But he had a restaurant, and this one chef was a hot mess.
He would always go on like benders, you know, crack whatever.
And he wouldn't show up for like four days.
But he would always call and remind everybody, you've got to feed the bitch.

(01:38):
I think he's called it Feed the Bitch, which was his sourdough.
Yeah.
He doesn't got to feed the starter.
I love when people name their sourdoughs.
I've got some really good ones.
I'm sure you would have a really clever one.
Oh, for sure.
Especially between your mind and Keith's, you'd come up with the best.
Oh, yeah.
The best name.
It's fun.
But, yeah, I've had starter a couple of times.
I've made sourdough a couple of times, but I just could never, I'm just neglectful.

(02:01):
I'm too scatterbrained.
That's me with kombucha, too.
I'm all over the place.
Oh, my kombucha jar.
Oh, dude, I have one of those really big ones in my apothecary cabinet.
Come on, Lillie, dry it up.
It's so disgusting.
Mine was in my pantry, and it got pushed back in my old house when we had that bedroom-sized
pantry.
And when we were moving, I was packing food to keep, and 90% of it were thrown away, because

(02:25):
the way that the cabinets, I'm sorry, the shelves were so deep that things would get
lost back there.
You forget you even bought it.
Things expired two years ago, kind of thing.
And I'm like, oh, there's my kombucha jar.
Oh, boy.
And I took the cheesecloth off, and it was just this mold fest.
And I was like, oh, no.

(02:46):
I'm a terrible person.
I felt bad for her.
Yeah.
No, I actually did save some really good mother scobies, and I have them with some liquid
and Ziploc bags in my fridge.
I need to re-alive them.
I need to wake them up, but that's just another thing to add to my not my to-do list, but

(03:08):
my want-to-do list.
Yes, I have a million want-to-dos.
I have so many want-to-dos.
It's terrible.
I went down the rabbit hole yesterday of all the prepping stuff, and I really want to garden.
I've been wanting to have a successful garden for years.
I have dabbled.
You can't.
I can't do it in my backyard, but I could do it in my side yard.

(03:29):
And I'm trying to figure out what I can have in a small gardening space that would be worth
my time that would give a good yield in this crazy climate that we have.

(03:50):
We do also have, at my church, I started a garden, but then that got neglected.
Surprise, surprise, because I was in charge of it.
The only people that were helping me were this young senior in high school boy and this
fresh out of high school girl.
And she went off to college, also became a missionary, and she left first.

(04:13):
And then he graduated and started to work for his dad, and then he became unavailable.
And then he switched churches.
So then it was me.
And Hurricane Ian hit, and right when we were actually getting ready to start our fall season
in 2022 and plant stuff, and that got put on hold.
And then it was just indefinite after that, because the two of them were gone.

(04:34):
So we still have all the beds, so I'm trying to get some people together to help me kind
of reignite that.
But now we have our church has grown so much, and I'm trying to bring in some new people
that are interested in it.
I can give them my ideas and my vision and deviate the tasks, because I'm not agreeing
thumb.

(04:55):
Me neither.
My grandma is though.
I'm kind of a yellow thumb.
Mine's a little bit yellow, but toward the brown side.
I love stuff that's low maintenance.
We have like 30 pineapples on my property.
My pineapples are amazing.
My succulents are thriving.
I kill succulents.
Yeah, that's how bad they're right.

(05:17):
I kill succulents, because they require such little water that I'm like, oh, they're good.
They'll get humidity.
They'll get the rain little splashes on.
They dry up to a crisp.
I can grow peppers.
I've grown tomatoes, but my tomatoes don't ever get very big, so I need help with that.

(05:37):
But I'm just trying to start again.
I just planted some seeds for some potted stuff.
I think that's going to be better for me is to do a raised bed as opposed to planting
in the ground.
I wouldn't plant in the ground.
I would do what your church does.
How Southern Fresh Farms has the two by fours that are a little bit raised in its sectioned.

(05:59):
We have the galvanized steel ones.
It's like rigid or whatever.
And then they're lined with wood around the top.
So they just kind of like, they stand in the ground.
The bottom is open.
Yeah, that's nice.
So we've been layering, I'm sure it's actually broken down pretty well by now, because we
had put a lot of yard waste and compost and stuff in there a couple of years ago.

(06:21):
And the last time I checked it, we had earthworms.
So that shows that it's got a lot of good bacteria and it's thriving, but it's just overgrown.
So yeah, I really want to get back into that.
And I was looking at canning.
I actually busted out my canner and used it appropriately for the first time since I
bought it.
And I bought it.
I think I looked it up.

(06:41):
I think I bought it in 2021.
I've had that sucker just sitting and collecting dust, right?
Only time I used it was to sanitize a whole bunch of mason jars when I made elderberry.
And I went to go pull it down.
So I was like, yeah, I'm going to make some soup.
I'm going to can it.
I'm really going to do it this time because my group chat girls are like, yeah, I do.
I do like encouraging me because a lot of them can too, but a lot of them live up north

(07:02):
and they prep for winter and stuff like that.
And I got it down and I'm missing my accessories to it.
I'm missing like the weight in the dial and like there's a little plug on there.
I'm missing all the stuff.
And I was like, where could this have gone?
It's literally been sitting on top of my apothecary for years.
It's covered in dust.

(07:23):
Where is my stuff?
I'm so mad.
And so they were like, well, you could still do water bath.
And I'm like, but I can't do a water bath when I'm doing soup because it has me.
You know, you want it to be perfect.
Right.
And so one of the girls, she was like, listen, she's like, I'm a rebel canner.
She's like the Amish don't have electricity.
The Amish do water bath only.

(07:44):
And she gave me like an Amish recipe to actually do a water bath for soup.
And she knows me and are, you know, distrust for alphabet agencies.
And you know, if certain groups say that it's not okay, I'm sure you can find a way to make
it okay.
I mean, you know what I'm saying?
Like raw milk is illegal.
Right.

(08:05):
You know what I'm saying?
For human consumption.
For human consumption.
Right.
So she taught me a method and I did it and I was really proud of myself.
Collecting rainwater is illegal in certain places.
Yeah.
So stupid.
Get the fuck out of here.
Ridiculous.
That's another thing I want to do.
I was looking at rain barrels.
Yeah.
I was looking at that too.
And we were actually going to try when we were preparing for the storm.

(08:26):
Joe was like, I'm going to go take these garbage cans and place them out in the areas of the
house where the rain, because we don't have gutters.
And the rain pours off of certain parts of our house.
Like, oh my God.
They stopped talking about my hands.
You tell everybody else when we interview them.
I know.
Stop talking with their hands.
I know.
The rain pours off of our house because we don't have gutters in these certain spots,

(08:48):
like like literally like a waterfall.
It pours off so hard, especially when we have like these torrential summer downpours.
And so he's like, I'm going to go take these garbage cans and, you know, put them in these
spots to fill them up with water.
And then they really won't blow away.
The garbage cans full of water.
And of course we didn't hardly get any rain with this storm.
But then he realized that he had purposely cut holes in the bottom of all the garbage

(09:11):
cans years ago.
For the compost.
No, not for the compost, but just so that it wouldn't get like disgusting.
So wouldn't get like.
Yeah, but this now we're like, well, now we need it.
Dang it.
Yeah, I need to start.
I had compost.
Dude, my compost bucket was beautiful for years.
I've had this compost 10 years, like just, you know, almost like a sourdough.

(09:36):
You just constantly, you use some and you feed it.
You always have like your starter in there.
And we have nowhere to put it because we're now in an HOA.
Yeah.
Right.
And I'm not putting it on my patio.
Is it a big garbage can?
It was a big rubber made container.
So I got your garage.
Yeah, but then it's going to make our we have so much stuff.

(09:59):
Our garage went from a two car garage that was an extra large.
So you could honestly fit three cars in there side by side to a basic two car garage.
So we have no extra space.
Everything that was in our garage previously, it's just too small because it kept.
Well, or I just have too much shit.

(10:19):
How's that?
I'm getting to that point.
Yeah.
Okay.
So with a three car garage, we had all of our shit in two cars worth of the garage.
And then we had the other car garage, honestly, is like a walking path to get to the door.
That's how mine is right now.
So this garage, now we're down to a two car garage and it's just too small.

(10:45):
This is such fucking first world problems.
I know what is I'm hearing myself say this stuff and I'm like barfing in my own mouth.
I just have too much stuff, mostly because we did get rid of a whole bunch of shit from
the other house.
And even though we had the same square footage, now we're a two story house.
So the two story, everything is it's not designed the same.

(11:05):
So I can't have the same stuff in it the way that I had it before.
Like my couch is now too small, like too big for my too small of a living room where it
was perfectly fine with the other house.
You know, it's just everything's just it's just designed so different.
So in the garage, we have we had a whole art cabinet and a whole art area at our other

(11:26):
house.
Now we don't.
So most of the art supplies, because my kids love art is in the garage just in boxes.
We haven't even opened it and we've been here almost a year.
So I'm like, OK, we really need to weed through this shit.
You know, we have a dresser that's just too heavy and we're too lazy to bring it upstairs
for the girls.
We have to bring it upstairs in fact that and it usually we're pretty empty and we ended

(11:47):
up just collecting clothes on top of it.
Let's be honest.
So they're not upstairs and they're in the garage because maybe one day we'll use them
somehow.
Why do we that's like there's like a there's a there's a line somewhere between like being
resourceful and like being a prepper and then like in having too much stuff being a hoarder
and being a hoarder because that's kind of like that's kind of where I'm at because my

(12:11):
husband's dad was a much older parent and he was actually a kid during the depression
right for some perspective.
That's my great-grandma.
Yes.
Yes.
And so he was taught to save everything.
He was taught to be resourceful.
He was taught to reuse your aluminum foil.
Pick up stuff on the side of the road.
So like when he passed away, like they had a ton of stuff and dude had like 10 of every

(12:35):
tool in the garage or more like so much stuff.
And so like my husband was raised with that mentality.
So he's of the mindset of he's not nearly as bad.
I love you, babe.
You're not you're nowhere like your dad in that regard.
But he has a lot of stuff.
And I actually just made a donation today on my way here of a bunch of stuff.

(12:56):
Most of it was closed, but I had like some linens in there.
I had some like child toys and stuff.
But like my issue is not so much of hoarding because maybe one day I'll need it, but I'm
a hoarder in the sense of like being emotionally attached to stuff where I'm more sentimental.
Like that's a dangerous hoarding.
Yeah.
My kids, you know, my kids childhood books that they loved or their stuffies and and

(13:20):
I notice it in them too.
Like it's so hard for them to get rid of stuff.
Like all the time I'll be like, here's a box.
Fill it with stuff you don't want because it needs to go to kids who would get some use
out of it because you don't use it.
You know, try to explain it to them and they'll be like the bottom like couple inches of the
box and I'm like, no, dude, fill it up.
We got to get rid of stuff.
You know, and also like when you get rid of stuff, it's so cleansing.

(13:43):
It makes you feel good.
But I have been in this house for 14 years.
That's a lot of stuff that accumulates with a family of five and a standard three bedroom,
two bath house.
Whereas you know, I know you guys have moved around a lot and every time you move, you
have an opportunity to kind of go through everything and purge.

(14:03):
Whereas like I don't have that.
I cannot even fathom what we would go through having to move out of this house if we ever
do.
It's actually a beautiful thing.
It's very stressful.
But I went through a minimalist journey back in 2016 maybe when I had read the Marie Kondo
book and I was like, oh, it all made so much sense.

(14:27):
Why are we keeping shit that we don't even care about?
A.
And B. If you don't have a lot of shit, everything's going to have a home.
A.
Right.
Which is exactly how I want to live.
Now I'm not going to live so sterile like that.
That didn't speak to me.
It was more just like the idea of purging.
What's essential?
Yeah.
Keeping the things that are essential.
Right.
And so I got rid of everything that we didn't need.

(14:49):
I mean everything.
We had this house that we had four little kids and we just didn't need 90% of the shit
in our house.
Like in the book, it talks about like, you know, one outfit for every day.
And I didn't necessarily do that.
I went because we had kids that were still in like diapers.
Some of her stuff is really extreme.
It was a little much.

(15:09):
And then having like one towel per person, which sounds great in theory, but like what
happens when somebody pukes?
Now I have to have a stack of like puke towels in the garage, which I did.
What happens when somebody spills like my kids do all the time?
Or pee on the bed.
Or dumps.
Yeah.
Or pees, or pees, misses the toilet.
I don't know.
Just different things.
Like our flooding.

(15:31):
We've had our pipes in our house burst from under the floor.
What was the first thing we reached for?
Towels.
Yeah.
And you're going to use every single towel that you own?
Yeah.
That's supposed to be like wiping your face?
No.
So, but we had gotten rid of a lot of stuff that was unnecessary.
Extra stuff that just accumulated and it felt so good.
And when we moved out of there, we moved into a much smaller house and it worked so well

(15:54):
for a little while.
And then my business started getting bigger and customers started offering me more furniture.
And you know, there was a time when we didn't have a dresser.
I couldn't afford a dresser.
Nobody was giving one away for free.
I looked on like the free pages of whatever and nobody was giving one away.
I needed one so badly and nobody gave one away and I just didn't have one.

(16:19):
And now I have two in my garage that we're not even using.
And I don't know if part of me is like I keep stuff because for so long I was so broke.
I couldn't afford this stuff.
The scarcity mindset?
Yeah.
Now we had it and I don't want to get rid of it because what happens if the other one
breaks?
Now I can just toss that one.
And then now I have another one, a backup or if somebody needs one.

(16:39):
I mean, I gave so much stuff away when we moved out of this house.
I gave beds because customers give me stuff and like I'll bring it to the act shelter
or I'll bring it, you know, wherever, Salvation Army or wherever is accepting donations or
I post it online.
The problem with posting free stuff online is that people have ruined it for others that
actually are in need because I'll take it and then they never show up because I'll

(17:02):
say on there no holds but I'm going to hold it for you.
I'm not a monster.
If you say I can't get there until tomorrow but I desperately need it, sure, fine.
And then they don't show up.
And I've had 27 other people message me how desperate they are for it.
And now I say, hey, it never got picked up.
Do you want it?

(17:23):
Yeah, I'll be there in five minutes and they don't show up.
And it's such a waiting game.
And at this point, I'd rather just give it to Goodwill.
Yeah, that's all I am to Joe will tell me all the time.
You need to take pictures of this stuff.
We need to post it online.
And I'm like, why?
I don't want to because I know what these people are going to do because that's just
the nature of the beast nowadays.
It didn't used to be like that, but like you said, people have ruined it.

(17:43):
I used to make good money on Craigslist off my stuff.
You know, I'd get something.
I wouldn't use it ever anymore and then I'd sell it and I'd make like a decent, not a
profit, but I'd make my money back a little bit on it.
Like when we moved out of the house where I was going through my minimalist journey,
I had saved, I had an envelope in my cabinet of all the money that we used to sell because
I had sold a bunch of stuff and gave it away.

(18:05):
And we had like 1500 bucks just in crap that I was selling that I was literally just going
to give to Goodwill.
And I'd rather give it to somebody yourself, to somebody who desperately needs it at a low
price or free.
But y'all ruin it for me.
I'm just going to give it to Goodwill at the end of the day and they're making all the
profit off of it.
That's sad, but my time is worth something too.

(18:27):
My effort and my energy is worth something.
Yeah.
Yeah, I just took all my, all our stuff that I donated today to Teen Challenge.
Now they're kind of like, it's like a thrift store, kind of like a Goodwill.
Well, they're going to make a profit on it.
However, it goes to a good cause.
Right.
They're probably a nonprofit.
Yeah, it's for- Goodwill's not a nonprofit.
It's for getting drug users and addicts and stuff off the street and doing something good

(18:48):
with their life.
Right.
And they've actually, they've come and talked to our church.
I think they come like once a year and they do like a show kind of thing and then they
tell us all about what they're doing and what they're up to and stuff.
So I know all about this organization.
And I know that they're trustworthy.
So I was like, okay, I'm like a lot of this stuff probably can't be used and maybe they'll
chuck it, but like, I know it's a good hands and the money will go to a good thing.

(19:11):
Yeah.
And I don't want to do garage sales at yard sales.
Like having people come to your, you know, you have something you paid like $150 for
and they're like 50 cents and you're like, get the hell out.
And I think garage sales are allowed in my freaking HOA.
This, I don't want to live in an HOA.
I thought that moving into a neighborhood like this would be great for my kids because

(19:32):
they desperately want to live in a neighborhood that has friends.
And I desperately want that for them because friends growing up in my neighborhood, IEU,
was pivotal to my growth.
Right.
I could go out on my bike alone and we'd go to the, whatever, just ride around all over
the place.
And you think an HOA is going to be safer too and you'll have to worry about watching

(19:53):
your kids while they're outside.
There's some skis ball going to come by and pick them up in some white van, whatever.
You can just let them ride, let them rollerblade, whatever, go hang out with friends and come
back when it gets dark.
Right.
There's no kids outside because everybody's on their iPads.
Guaranteed the neighborhood is full of kids.
This is a reminder to our listeners.

(20:15):
There is a disclaimer about this episode.
Today's episode will feature a story involving infant death.
Today we welcome a good friend of both of ours, someone we wanted to get on the podcast
since it was just an idea in our heads.
Stephanie Hussie is a wife, homeschool mama, mother of two and owner of good-hearted mama
herbal healing products.
Hey, Steph.
Hi there.

(20:35):
Welcome, welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming on our podcast.
Yes.
Yes.
I'm super excited to have you.
Yes.
So two Stephanies in the house today.
That's right.
Spelled different.
Spelled different.
Yes.
So let's just jump right into it.
Okay.
You can go ahead and start with your story anywhere you want.
So I am a mother of two.

(20:56):
I have a seven-year-old daughter and I have a son who would be five years old today.
He passed away five years ago after a traumatic home birth.
It's been a struggle trying to get through these last five years, trying to find what
works for you because grief is not linear.
So everything really ebbs and flows.

(21:18):
That's kind of where I've been.
I have my bad days.
I have my days where I think I could take on the world and then I have just some days
I'm just wondering how I'm going to wake up.
So yeah.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
That's been five years.
Five years.
I think it feels like it was either 20 years ago or five days ago.
Right.
So just there's no rhyme or reason for it.

(21:40):
Yeah.
Well, that also makes me think like how long have we known you?
Let's say I've known Victoria for a long time.
And then you, I just started getting close to I think right after I lost them.
So your story is unique because we already came into it knowing your story.
So we want you to tell it to us like we've never heard it before.

(22:03):
Well, I had my daughter had very lovely pregnancy with her.
It was amazing, my first pregnancy and hired a doula and I did all my research and I was
able to have a very amazing hospital birth.
No issues, very natural.
Idyllic I guess would be the best way to describe it.
It was very, you know, clean cut, just perfect.

(22:25):
So, you know, when I got pregnant with our son, I wanted to aim for a home birth because
I thought, well, my gosh, that was just so easy in the hospital.
Why can't I just be surrounded in my home with a knowledgeable provider who's going
to help guide me and, and, you know, I'll be able to catch my son in the bathtub and
or catch him, you know, in my own bed and be able to just relax.

(22:48):
And that was the goal.
There are various recommendations we decided on provider, you know, things were going well
in the early pregnancy and right at the beginning of the third trimester, I was at an appointment
and my provider was palpating my belly and he flipped and went and breech.

(23:10):
And my provider said, oh no, it's still early.
Don't worry, don't worry.
And I said, well, I am worried because, you know, I would not like to have a C-section
and oh no, it'll be fine.
It'll be fine.
Okay.
Well, I'm still worried, but I knew what to do.
I went home and did my, did my spinning babies.
I did everything that I could do.

(23:31):
I talked to him.
I, you know, tried to guide him and then he ended up going transverse a couple of times
and flip him back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
And it was, you know, very disheartening, very discouraging because I was thinking, well,
I'm going to have to transfer.
I'm going to have to transfer somebody soon if he doesn't go back, if he doesn't go head
down.

(23:51):
My provider did not want me driving to where I was supposed to go.
So they sent another midwife in her place to kind of monitor me, but she didn't want
to push down too hard.
She didn't want to see where he was because he was quote unquote touchy.
Then she said, he's head down.
I said, oh, okay, great.
I didn't think he was, but I was like, okay.

(24:13):
And so I started to monitor things, hiccups, things of that nature.
Backtrack just a moment.
They said that they didn't want you to drive.
Why was that?
Because of the placement.
They didn't want me sitting in a car for longer than 45 minutes.
So instead of you driving, instead of you driving to the office, that's when they sent
somebody else.
They decided to send an employee to you.
Yes.

(24:33):
Okay.
Because prior to you were driving there, right?
Prior to I was driving there.
Okay.
And she was convinced that he was head down.
I didn't know at the time because it felt a little different.
My body looked different, but I thought, well, this is a second pregnancy and things sit
a little differently.
And I went and saw chiropractor and they did the best they could to try and give him more
space and reposition my pelvis.

(24:54):
I was doing my due diligence to get him head down.
When it came time, I started to feel the early labor signs.
I was like, oh, it's go time.
It's go time.
Like, well, we're there.
We're at that point.
And I called my midwife, my primary midwife, the midwife that I hired for our son's birth.

(25:15):
And I said, it's time.
He's ready to come.
She said, okay, well, call me when the contractions get close.
Now, this is my second pregnancy.
This was at nine in the morning.
And I said, okay.
So I continued to contract.
I continued to do everything that you do when you're in your early labor, your ball bouncing
on your stability ball and walking and doing the things.

(25:36):
And we got to that point where they were starting to get very regular.
And my husband called her and said, it's time.
He's going to be coming soon.
And she says, well, I'm running some errands now.
And I will start heading your way, but I'm going to send another midwife.
And you'll get a little bonus.
You'll get two for one.
You'll get the both of us.

(25:57):
Okay.
Well, this was at about noon.
And my doula showed up.
My photographer showed up.
And we are in the throes of labor.
It's beautiful.
There's music.
My husband and I are dancing.
My daughter's coming in and playing.
My dogs are playing.
Like it's perfect.
I couldn't imagine the early labor as calm as it was.

(26:18):
And then the birth assistance started showing up.
The secondary midwife showed up, but my primary midwife still had not shown up.
So one o'clock goes by.
She was supposed to be on her way.
Two o'clock goes by.
Nobody.
So one o'clock.
So on and so forth.
I'm getting into the transition stage.
And they say to me, why don't you get in the tub?

(26:39):
I said, okay, I'm getting tub.
You know, it's that time he's going to be here.
So I'm in the tub and I'm labor and you know, labor land time, you don't know what time
it is.
You don't know how long you've been there.
You don't know how long it's been going on.
But I was in the tub for, you know, about an hour or so.
And my husband was getting worried because the primary midwife still had not shown up.

(27:01):
So she left a voicemail on my husband's voicemail saying that, you know, she had to run to the
bank and she would be there shortly.
This was like, you know, late afternoon.
I'm in the tub laboring and then all of a sudden as I feel bearing down at that point
where you're going to bear down, I start bearing down and I push and out comes a foot.

(27:23):
I'm like, oh no.
But I'm still not freaked out yet because in my mind, you know, breaches just a variation
of normal.
I was just going to say that.
Yep.
This is possible.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's just a, it's just a thing and we'll get through it.
Well the secondary midwife didn't see things that way.

(27:44):
She, she freaked.
I had to put it mildly.
She freaked.
She started screaming.
She started panicking.
She's yelling at her birth assistance to call 911 and it becomes pure chaos, absolute
chaos.
And we all know how our bodies are in fight or flight.
We know that the moment that, that chaos hits, that's it.

(28:07):
We go into fight or flight, our body shut down when my body decides to shut down.
So at this point, my son's got his feet out, his feet are out of me and I'm like, what
do we do?
What do we, what do we do?
So I look to my doula who's the only one who's calm in this moment and I say, what do I do?

(28:29):
And she says, she looked to the midwife, you said, shouldn't she get on her hands and knees
at this point?
And she's like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I'm on my hands and knees and my bathtub and I'm trying to get my son out.
But at this point, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a losing battle because my body has
shut down, my natural contractions that would move my son out of my, my body have shut down.

(28:55):
So I'm pushing on sheer will at this point because I have, he's, he's hanging out of
me.
He's literally, you know, hanging out of me.
His cord had collapsed.
So we were in like, it was dire now.
So was it like waist down that he was out?
Waste down.
So it was about pressure is pushing on his umbilical cord.

(29:17):
Yes.
So he was essentially without oxygen.
I could hear some chatter because I'd closed my eyes.
You know, I went into my own little um safe space because there was chaos with, with my
mid, the secondary midwife, my primary midwife was not there and nobody knew what to do at

(29:39):
this point.
Nobody knew except for my doula.
You know, she knew kind of what to do, but she's not the birth provider.
She's not who I hired to deliver the baby.
She's trying to help me at this point.
And I had no clue what to do.
So I just retreated.
I retreated in my head and just listened to my husband and trying to be kind to me and

(30:01):
talk to me.
And meanwhile, there's just pure chaos going on around me.
So finally, um, at this point, the EMS shows up and they said to my, the secondary midwife,
are you going to perform in a PZad me?
She said, no, you need to do it.
And they said, we don't do that.

(30:21):
You need to perform in a PZad me.
And they started arguing about who, and it was just pure.
Like I was just at that point, like get a knife out of the kitchen and I will do it myself.
Like I will do it myself.
If you can't do it, I will do it.
So I was able to get him out to about his chest, right above his chest line.

(30:45):
So he was hanging essentially by his neck and my body.
So the EMS just was, were done with her because she would not make a decision.
They said, get out of the way.
We need to get her to the ER now.
So I'm placed on a stretcher and I am with my son hanging out of me essentially on hands

(31:09):
and knees on a stretcher out of my house and broad daylight at 5.30 in the afternoon on
a Thursday for God's sakes.
Neighbors saw, you know, at that point, I didn't know this.
I'm just wanting to get to the hospital and help my son.
Worst, you know, ambulance ride of my life.
Just essentially hands and knees screaming, trying to get my son out of me and he's stuck.

(31:36):
So get to the ER and, you know, they had to hold me down and put oxygen over my face and
try and calm me down because I was clearly, I was, you know, in distress.
And they performed about an almost third degree of Pseodomy and got my son out of me and put

(31:59):
him on the table next to me.
And I could see him finally, first time I saw him on a table next to me and I'm holding
his hand while they're trying to perform life-saving methods on him.
So I was holding his hand, watching him and just talking to him and he was just so beautiful.
He just had this beautiful strawberry blonde hair and he was eight pounds, one ounces.

(32:24):
He was just, he was perfect.
He was absolutely perfect.
And meanwhile they're trying to work on me because I'm still delivering a placenta.
I'm still, you know, doing all these things.
My body's doing these things and I'm trying to focus on him.
And then they brought in a chaplain and then I'm in this little room.

(32:44):
If you've ever been to that hospital, the ER room, it's tiny.
There is about 20 people in there working on him and working on me and it's just chaos.
And then I hear the secondary midwife just saying, I didn't know he was breached.
I didn't know he was breached.
Did she knew he was breached?
Did she know?

(33:04):
Did she know?
And she was just trying to cover herself.
It felt like, you know, like, you know, instead of focusing on me or on my son, it was just
trying to, you know, a little CYA action with her.
And they brought the chaplain in and I was just like, told my husband, like, just get
away from me, like, tell him to get away from me right now.

(33:25):
I don't, I don't want to see him.
I don't want to, this is not my focus is not him because they essentially thought that
something was going to happen to me too.
Because I was in pure just shock.
I was, you know, just bleeding.
I was doing, you know, I, my body was just not responding well to anything.
I think, you know, at that moment.
So then by the time they got him stable, they got me stable.

(33:51):
They pumped me with morphine for the pain because they cut me and I had no pain.
They didn't, they couldn't do anything to me down there or, you know, my own body.
I was, I was fully awake.
So they, they started pumping me with morphine, which I didn't even know at the time.
So they loaded him in one van and they loaded me in another van and took us to Galasano

(34:16):
and put him in the children's hospital and then I immediately went back into surgery.
So, you know, and it was, I was, I didn't know the severity.
That's like the thing.
I did not know the severity of what we just went through.
So while I'm getting stitched up and, you know, repaired down there, I was completely

(34:39):
under.
And then I woke up and my husband was there and he just, his face said it all, but I didn't,
it didn't occur to me.
I just, you know, I'm doing the mom things like, well, make sure they don't do this to
him and make sure they don't do that to him, but not knowing that he was, he'd been without
oxygen for 28 minutes.

(35:00):
He was without oxygen.
Once his cord prolapsed and once they got him out of me, 28 minutes.
Like eight minutes is the danger zone without oxygen.
That's the danger zone.
When you start brain damage sets in, but 28 minutes and I had no idea, like not a clue

(35:22):
that it was as bad as it was because I was, you know, I was, I was out of it.
And you know, I spent the night in the hospital and then I woke up and got in my wheelchair,
you know, because I'm still just postpartum.
I'm still, you know, I'm in pain.
And, you know, you know how it is when you wake up postpartum and natural birth, like

(35:45):
your body is just, you know, and I went and saw him in the NICU for the first time when
he was all cleaned up and just, he was hooked up to every imaginable cord, you know, and
it was just, you know, seeing him for the first time like that.
And it was, it was just heartbreaking.

(36:06):
And I couldn't believe it.
Like I was still just, I wanted that, I wanted to have him in my arms.
I wanted to breastfeed him.
I wanted to, you know, skin to skin.
I wanted all these things, but he, I couldn't, he's hooked up to all these things.
He's not moving.
His eyes weren't opening.

(36:27):
He was essentially being kept alive by machines.
So there was no brain waves.
We, we stayed with him day and night.
We stayed in the hospital with him and went through all the, all the things that you go
through with the doctors and they're, they're reading you, you know, the reports and they're
showing you the brain waves and they're showing you all this medical stuff and you're just

(36:51):
praying for a miracle.
Like I was just praying for his eyes to open up and for him to look at me and that everything
was going to be okay.
And it wasn't.
And you know, we knew that there was no more brain waves left.
I mean, it's after 28 minutes.
That's just, it just wasn't possible.

(37:14):
My son's soul left his body a while ago and that was something that I had to come to terms
with.
So on day three, you know, we had to, we had to make a decision.
You know, we had my mother and my father got to meet him and we stayed with him and we,

(37:35):
we talked to him and I, I got to give him a bath and you know, I was able to take, you
know, as a mother, my milk could come into while I was in the hospital with him because
I'm essentially laying next to him.
So it's like my body sensed it.
So my milk came in really early and the nurse, God bless her, she said to me, she said,

(37:59):
well, you know, if you want to express a little and put it on a Q tip and put it on his lips,
you know, and, you know, moisturize his lips a little bit because he had all these tubes
in.
And for me, it was kind of like, okay, well, I got to put a little, I got, it was so weird
and it's so weird, but you know, as a breastfeeding mother, like you think I'm, I can do amazing

(38:20):
things with this.
And I was like, maybe I can, you know, just maybe he'll be okay.
I don't know.
You just, in that moment, you go, I have the most crazy things that you're, you're holding
on to so much hope that something is going to change.
And yeah, we, we had to, we said goodbye to him.

(38:42):
My daughter, who was two and a half at the time, she was able to come to the garden at
the hospital and she was able to meet him and touch him and play with his feet and his
hands and blow bubbles and, you know, she was able, because we went back and forth.
I'm like, do we let her meet him?

(39:04):
And then I had a best friend of mine and she said, Steph, you need to let that little girl
meet that little boy because that's her brother.
And she needs that.
Even if she does remember, you'll have the pictures and she'll know that like she got
to meet her brother.
So she got to meet him and then I got to hold him for the first time, which was amazing.

(39:29):
My husband got to hold him and we were able to talk to him and study him and really look
at him without all these tubes attached to him.
And he was just so beautiful.
He had just strawberry red hair and he just, it was perfect.
He was stout.
He was just, he was a stocky little boy, the only thing that was still working on him,

(39:52):
it was his heart.
So once they took out the breathing tubes, you know, he passed away in my arms 20 minutes
later.
So that was, that's the story of our son.
I thank the Lord every day for just those, you know, the, how many days?
Maybe 43 days, 42 days, including the 40, 40, 40 weeks, three days that I got to spend

(40:20):
with him.
So it was, it was, you know, it's, it's, he's my little angel and nobody can ever replace
him.
And I will say his name and talk about him and talk about our struggles and our journey.
And you know, that's, that's the beautiful thing about it, as hard as it is.

(40:42):
It takes a lot of courage and bravery to speak it in this platform.
And I think a lot of our local listeners, especially in our little circle of community
of moms already kind of know your story a bit.

(41:02):
And this will really kind of paint the true picture of what it is rather than, you know,
what I heard on Facebook or what I heard through somebody else.
And I also want to touch on, I know after this all happened, you were able to kind of
give back to the NICU community.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah.

(41:23):
So, you know, I see a lot of people, you know, that kind of malign the, the hospital setting
and that's fine.
Everybody has different experiences.
But our experiences at the NICU were just, just they touched our heart.
I had a nurse named Julie and she was just, she reminded me of my aunt Julie and I loved

(41:48):
her so much.
And she, on his last day, she said to me, she goes, can I, can I baptize him?
And I said, please do.
You know, so she actually prayed over him and she was so kind.
And I know, I don't know what they see.
I don't want to think about what they see in the NICU.

(42:11):
But for her to just, just her kindness just stuck out with me.
Everybody was just very kind.
They didn't rush us.
They didn't try and patronize us or, you know, they were very calm.
They were very just loving.
And it, it touched us a lot and being in that space and knowing what a NICU parent goes

(42:34):
through and what even just those three days is horrible and they were a blur.
I don't remember hardly any of it because I didn't eat.
I didn't shower.
I just was there.
I wanted to do, we wanted to do something for NICU parents and for parents that were
in our position.
So we heard of something called the cuddle cot.

(42:56):
And we didn't get to use it because they didn't have one.
We wanted to get one for another one for the health system.
So a cuddle cot is essentially a, a cot that's cooled.
So if you lose your child, you, your baby, you can place your baby in that cuddle cot

(43:18):
and it allows you more time with them.
It doesn't, it's, it's essentially, you know, keeps the body in a, in a good state for you
to spend more time with your child.
You know, that precious time that you will never get with them.
So it's, it was very important for us to do that.
So we were able to raise money to get one of those.

(43:38):
And then we were also able to raise enough money to provide comfort care bags for parents
in the NICU.
So I was thinking, well, what, what did I want?
Okay, well, I wanted energy bars, chapstick, comfortable socks, fuzzy socks, because it's
so cold in there, neck pillows, blankets, gift cards to the coffee shop downstairs,

(44:02):
things like that.
So I was able to make, you know, bags for, I forgot how many families at the time.
This was a while ago, but enough, you know, for them to pass out.
And we were also able to provide a catered lunch for the NICU staff.
So that was another amazing thing we were able to do.
And then recently for his birthday, his fourth birthday, we were able to raise more money

(44:27):
and we were able to buy to purchase $100 and gift cards for 39 families.
That's awesome.
So gas cards, gift card to the local breakfast place nearby, the coffee shop.
So take care of some of those families while they're there.
Such a beautiful way to give back.
Yeah.
And, you know, in his name.

(44:47):
Yeah.
And I love to hear him and help all these families.
I love that.
Yeah.
How long after his birth did you guys start doing those things and get the cuddle caught?
That was about a year.
A year, first birthday, we did that.
As you know, like with COVID.
So we weren't able to do a whole lot.

(45:09):
And that's another thing.
I was robbed of so much because that was May of 2019 and then not even, you know, eight
months later COVID hit.
So it's like all my grieving had to come to a stop because we're in these crazy times.
And you have another child.
I have another child.
You have another child you have to look out for.
Yeah.
I had another child I had to look out for.
So it was very just, you know, I, that first year wasn't blur.

(45:33):
I can't tell you how we got through it.
I look back at pictures and I don't remember things.
And it's weird with trauma and grief.
Like you look back and you don't remember things.
I'm like, I'm glad I took pictures.
So I know that this happened.
Yeah.
We talk about that a lot.
That's a really, as a reoccurring theme.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(45:54):
It's crazy.
It's like you, you just don't remember.
And you don't, it's like there's before his death and then after his death.
So like anything before his death, I, it's, it's, it's like it's a whole separate timeline
of my life.
And then after his death, it's, you know, that first year especially was just a blur.

(46:15):
And we were just going through the motions, weren't eating probably a whole lot, you
know, and hard to talk to people.
We would take ourselves out of social situations.
We wouldn't go out, you know, we would just, it was weird.
We have our comfort zone and we stayed there.
You know, but when you have another child that's, you can't do that for too long.

(46:37):
And you guys were in a different house at the time?
No, same house.
Same house?
Yeah.
And we stayed.
Now, you know, his, his room's exactly the same.
I have not touched his room.
It's, it won't get touched for a long time.
You know, his clothes are still hung in his closet.
His cloth diapers are all folded and ready to go.
Everything was done.

(46:58):
And I don't, that room is off limits, you know, it's, it's very, it's, my husband even
suggested like, well, we need to, we need to sell the house.
And I said, I'm not, you're not doing that to me right now.
You're not forcing me to move out of this house yet.
I'm not ready yet.
I'm not going to go to, you know, change things.
So yeah.
Do you ever go into that room?

(47:19):
I do.
Um, when he first passed, um, I would go in there and I would sleep and talk to him and
pray and do things like that.
And I go in there not as often now.
I go in there and I, I will vacuum his room and open up his blinds every now and then.

(47:40):
And you know, it's weird though.
It's not, he was never in that room.
It was just cause it was intended for him.
Right.
So, you know, but I have my own shelf in our bedroom with his picture and he gets fresh
flowers every week by his picture and by his earn.
And you know, I honor him in that way.
That's my routine with him, you know, so we see him every day.

(48:04):
He's present.
It's just, you know, he was here, you would have a routine with him.
So now you have, you still have a routine with him in your, in your own messed up routine
in your own way.
But you know, I have another child, but when I look at my friends who have multiples and
I don't feel like I'm as much of a mother as they are, you know, and that's, that's hard

(48:26):
sometimes because I should be, you know, I every, every, every time he turned a year
older, I would think, okay, well, this would, but would be what our house is like right
now.
This would be what my life is like and this would be what our routine is like and I got
robbed of that.
So you know, I don't, I feel sometimes that like I'm not a mother even though I am.

(48:50):
Does that, it's hard.
It's only like lost mothers will get it.
It's like you, you try like, you know, you tried to give your child a sibling.
You tried to give your husband a son.
You tried to give your parents a grandson and you couldn't.
So it's like not only a failure feeling, but also just, you just, you got robbed as well.

(49:10):
You know, you feel like a failure to your family and that's, that's just a, that's a
horrible feeling.
So the routines are just like they're, they're good, but it's just that constant reminder
that this is not how life is supposed to be.
I'm not supposed to be, you know, waking up in the morning, kissing my son's ear and
buying him flowers every week.
You know, it's not supposed to be like that.

(49:32):
So I get it.
I understand.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Does that in a way, does it in a way help you process your grief in finding routines
in that way?
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's like I said, it ebbs and flows.
You know, if I, and this is the other horrible thing about grief, but sometimes you just

(49:56):
suppress, you suppress, you suppress, you suppress because you don't want to go through
it at that moment.
Right.
You know, but it, it hits you like a ton of bricks.
Like when we were in Orlando this past weekend and seeing these, these moms juggle multiple
kids and, you know, the, the, the siblings playing together or fighting or doing whatever.
And then you're like, God, you know, then you, then you, you're overcome with those

(50:20):
feelings.
Yeah.
Um, you know, you just can't pinpoint when it's going to happen.
It's just, you know, like I, my daughter right now is, is going through the motions
big time because all of her friends have siblings and it's just her in the house.
And she hates it when her friends leave.
She doesn't like to leave friends because she doesn't have anybody to play with at home.

(50:43):
She says, so it's been a struggle in our house last year, you know, and she's asked me, well,
I mean, why can't I have a brother or sister?
And it's like, I tried, I tried.
Lord knows I tried and I can't give her that now.
So, you know, we, we just, it's, it's never ending.

(51:04):
You will always have something come up that you're like, I have to deal with it.
Like it's, it, the grief never ends and it's, it's always comes through in a whole different
way and a different level.
You never expected and it just hits you like a ton of bricks.
So we're doing the little routines and, you know, the flower routine, that's my routine.
Um, I pick out a beautiful bouquet every week and I put it by his earn and that's just my

(51:28):
little sunshine next to his picture.
So, you know, and we kiss it every night and we have, when we go away, we take his, um,
when they took his footprints at the hospital, we take those with us.
So we always have a piece of him with us, with our family, when we're, when we're doing
something.
Oh yeah.
That's really sad.
That's also really sweet.

(51:49):
Yeah.
Um, and just for a listener's sake, um, and you, you weren't able to have any more children
after him.
Is that correct?
Um, when I was seven months pregnant with him, my husband had to have a, uh, an invasive
surgery done.
So he figured at the time, well, we have our boy and our girl, we're done.
So he got a vasectomy.

(52:11):
So I know those can be reversed.
They can be reversed, but then, you know, we've had just the fallout from his, from
his passing has been, right.
I mean, job losses.
Yeah.
Well, just the economy, just everything just kind of, you know, and then for reversal,

(52:32):
it's a lot of money.
And then that takes a year and I am no spring chicken anymore.
So I just, we just kind of figured that this is just, this is what the Lord blessed us
with.
He best blessed us with a, you know, healthy daughter and, you know, and it's, we're, we're
our own little, little team, you know, and it's just, it's how it's supposed to be.

(52:57):
And, you know, so what have you done, um, you know, outside of like your little routines
and stuff, have you spoke to therapist counseling?
What do you do for your own mental wellbeing?
So I have a great therapist.
We started, my husband and I both started seeing her, um, about a month after we started
to come to the house, to our house, because we just weren't, you know, keen on leaving.

(53:21):
It was very hard.
And she came to the house and then we've been, we see her, I see her, um, like once a month
now to talk things out.
I've tried EMDR and I did not care for it.
It wasn't, it wasn't good for me.
Um, you know, because I don't, EMDR is for trauma and sometimes I don't, I think I've,

(53:42):
my traumas, I've dealt with it, um, the trauma of driving by the hospital, the trauma of,
you know, being in my bathroom where everything happened.
I'm at a good place.
So I didn't feel EMDR was helpful towards me.
Mine is more just grief and guilt, uh, wrapped up into a perfect little ball.

(54:04):
Uh, so I did not continue with EMDR, but I do stick with my, my therapist.
And you know, exercise is my big thing.
Um, I started exercising about three months after, uh, and I, that was it for me.
I've always been big, big on exercising, but now I need it.

(54:24):
Like I need it.
And if I don't get it, you can tell and I can tell.
And you know, just being outside, gardening, you know, being with my animals, these are
the things that make me happy.
Listen to music, that, that kind of thing.
So what about telling your daughter, I know she was little, um, but how did you explain

(54:50):
this to her?
Because this seems so heavy for a little kid to understand.
It's, it's heavy in the sense that, um, she doesn't remember a whole lot, which is, which
is hard.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a blessing and a curse.
She remembers, she remembers the, the sirens from the EMTs and the fire trucks coming to

(55:12):
our house.
She remembers that, which is depressing.
Um, but luckily my mom was with her at the time, keeping her in another room.
My mom did not know what was going on.
So I can't even imagine what my mom was thinking at the time.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
I can't even imagine.
We've never really, really talked about it.
My mom was keeping her in another room when everything was happening, when she knew things

(55:35):
were kind of going downhill.
She took my daughter to another room and was trying to keep her mind off of things.
So you know, she sees the pictures.
I just don't think like she's, she's asking a lot more about death and, and you know,
I know that a lot of that's very natural for her age.
You know, she's just turned eight on Sunday.

(55:56):
So you know, I know a lot of that's very natural.
So I'm one, we're, we're trying to gauge if we need to go a little further or have her
do some talk therapy, that kind of thing.
Um, you know, she's very resilient, strong little girl.
And I think it's just, you know, as far as what happened, um, she knows that, uh, mommy

(56:20):
trusted people and things happened.
And, um, my son couldn't breathe.
She knew that my son couldn't breathe.
He couldn't breathe.
And that's essentially what happened and why he passed.
So, and I imagine that she has maybe not a memory of him herself, but a big memory through

(56:46):
you because you keep him alive in spirit in your life, bringing the footprints and having
the flowers.
Yeah.
And does she have any part of that routine or remind you, don't forget his footprints
or something like that.
Yeah.
I mean, we have, we, you know, she knows when we go to the store, like she helps me pick
out flowers for him and, you know, she'll pick out some for her.

(57:11):
And she knows that we do that.
Uh, you know, every Christmas he has his own tree, you know, as everybody gets their own
tree.
So he has his own tree, you know, decorated with lions because that's what his, his bedroom
was.
And he was always with the lions because we're, we always saw us and now even more so, we're
a pride, you know, we're a family, we're a pride and he was our little, you know, our

(57:32):
little lion.
So she helps decorate his tree every year.
Uh, you know, I, I, I try and go by how she's reacting.
I don't want to push her onto things, but I also, you know, want her to remember him
and know him, but I know that certain things that, you know, she knows I have my bad days.

(57:57):
She knows, you know, when we get around to the anniversary day, um, which is in May,
but right around April is when we all start tensions get high in our house.
Um, it's like the body knows my body goes haywire.
Everything goes haywire.
My husband, you know, he has just, it just all starts to hit and she knows.

(58:20):
And she feels us and she reacts and it's, I don't want her to, but it's, it's so, it's
like, it's so innate.
Like it's so innate that your body knows and remembers these things and it, and it reacts.
So you know, we, we try and do, uh, every year we get him a little birthday cake on
his birthday and she gets to blow out the candle.

(58:41):
So, you know, she's been there for everything, you know, one year, the first year, you know,
we had family, we did a butterfly release the second year, um, we went to Montana, which
was absolutely amazing to be out there in God's country and, and you know, it's just
you're surrounded by beauty and on his birthday.
It was amazing, you know, and then we, we did fundraisers one year and, you know, then

(59:04):
we had a very low key one another year and so we try and do something every year, you
know, to keep his memory alive.
I think that's really good.
I love that.
Yeah.
I remember, um, when you and I first met and we were in that parking lot and we sat there
and talked forever.
It felt like that night and you were telling me your whole story and I remember saying

(59:27):
to you at that time, I'm like, I know that I knowing you and what I know about you, I
know you're going to find a way to honor him.
I know that you're going to find a way that his name is going to live on and then like
seeing what you've done and what you are currently doing and continuing to do is like, it's just
it's beautiful.
I don't really know how, I don't know where to describe it.

(59:48):
It's beautiful.
Thank you.
So I've always been, um, got a couple of years before my daughter was born.
I got really involved in just taking care of myself and not, you know, I was working
for a professional baseball team at the time and those guys were just the epitome of health
and I was like, I got, I got to step up my game here.
I've always been into working out and, you know, trying to eat better and things like

(01:00:10):
that.
Uh, but then when you get pregnant, it's just, you can either go one way or the other
and I went the one way where it's just don't want to put anything bad in my body or in
her body and started researching ways to support my health and support her health without the
need for any prescriptions or anything that over the counter or anything like that.

(01:00:32):
And you know, how it is, you dip your feet and you start doing the elderberry and all
that and you know, you're, you're taking care of yourself.
You know what vitamins to go after.
But then when we lost our son, that set me up for a whole new world that I did not know
how to navigate.
Can't sleep.
You're not sleeping.
Your hormones are just all over the place.

(01:00:53):
Your immune system takes a dive.
It's just, it's crazy.
Your skin, you start aging practically overnight grief does such a number on the body.
It's crazy to me that more people don't learn how to support their health, especially when
you're going through trauma and grief.
Like I knew at the time that I had the propensity to even eat more or imbibe more, which I did

(01:01:18):
not want to do at all.
I've never been one on prescriptions or anything like that.
And I knew how to handle stress, but this was just completely different.
I started researching things that I knew would help me and my cortisol levels and help with
my sleep patterns and help all of our immune systems, obviously at the time we're not very

(01:01:39):
good.
So I started making my own tinctures to help my family.
You know how it is when you're taking all the supplements and the vitamins and your
capsules, capsules, capsules, and it's just, it's too much.
It's too much.
So I figured tinctures.
It's like a whole meal.
It's so bad in your stomach.
It's just, you're just sitting there popping things.
I'm like, I don't want to do that anymore.
So I started making my own tinctures because it's nice and concentrated.

(01:02:02):
It's nice and easy.
And I wanted something that I could give my family and know that we're not getting crap,
essentially, to help our bodies.
Yeah, you know what's going in it.
I know exactly what's going in it.
So I started doing things for sleep, for our sleep.
I started doing things for our immune health.
I started doing things just for everyday stress, cortisol, reducing support.

(01:02:26):
And then I started giving them away to friends and family.
And then friends are like, why are you giving this away?
And you saw it working in your own family?
I saw it working in my own family.
That was the main thing.
It was just like my husband was on a sleeping pill and an anti-anxiety pill after we lost
our son.
With one of my tinctures in magnesium, I was able to get him off all that.

(01:02:49):
And he's just like, I can't believe it.
I'm like, yeah, it's, you know, that stuff is just, it's horrible because he was waking
up every morning and he was shaky and groggy.
And he was just like, I can't do this anymore.
I can't, I'm having trouble working.
I'm having trouble going to sleep and nice and okay.
Well, you know, so I started doing that and he was just, I was able to get him off of

(01:03:10):
it.
I was able to get his like dose down to just a real low dose for his anti-anxiety.
And now he's not on any of it.
But at the time, you know, getting him off of that was just very important to us because
his body just, I mean, grief, it's crazy.
He's breaking out and rashes.
His eyes were swollen.
He was just, just, it was so bad.
So I mean a lot of that was just from stress and sleep.

(01:03:32):
So being able to do that for my family was just amazing.
And you know, giving it to friends and they're just like, why are you giving it?
I'll pay you for it.
And I'm like, no, I just want everybody healthy.
Like that was my whole thing.
I just want everybody healthy.
I want everybody sleeping and want your immune systems good.
But then, you know, the creative juices start kicking in and I'm making more things to help
me out essentially in my family.

(01:03:54):
But when I make these things and I sell them for good heart of mama, I'd give them away
if I could.
I really would.
Just because I believe so much in the power of natural healing and the power of just anything
to keep you off the prescription pills and let your body heal naturally.
It's like, I always say like, you know, the earth has an answer.
Like nature has an answer.

(01:04:15):
You just got to ask the questions and you'll find, you'll find your answer.
And there's something out there that can help for most things, obviously.
But, you know, the things that our society's plagued with right now, we don't get enough
sleep.
We don't eat right.
We don't, you know, we overload with prescription pills.
I mean, it's just being able to have that and offer it and also tell my story because

(01:04:35):
a lot of people come up to me and they'll say, well, why did you start all this?
Or what is this from?
And I said, well, here's the thing.
I lost my son five years ago and I needed a way to help myself and my family that wasn't
going to hurt us and that was going to get us back into natural healing on our body's
own terms.
And, you know, I think that people can see that there's the passion there and that there's

(01:05:00):
authenticity with it.
It's not just because it's not whatever.
It's like, I stand by this stuff and I know that without some of this stuff, I would be
in a lot worse shape than I am.
I wouldn't have been able to handle the emotions and the stress and what my body was going
through at the time.
I was able to kind of gently ate it and get through the things and not have to resort

(01:05:26):
to prescription pills or alcohol or things, you know, that are not natural to get me through
tough times.
And are so easy to just so easy get so easy.
Yeah, they're just, it's too easy.
They make it so easy for that stuff and they, you know, I didn't want that.
I knew that I didn't know what I was in for because I've obviously never lost a child.

(01:05:50):
So once you lose a child, you don't, it's, I don't wish it on anybody and, you know,
you want to, you can either go one way or the other when you're faced with trauma and
grief.
You could either go this way or take this road.
And I tried to take the road that was natural, the road that, you know, I knew that it was

(01:06:13):
going to be hard and I would have to really be patient.
But, you know, in the end, I feel, I feel like a different person just health wise too.
So that leads me to my next point.
What would you say to somebody who has gone through something similar or has lost, you
know, a lost a child has still birth for their, for their healing?

(01:06:35):
Where would they start?
For healing, be gentle with yourself, obviously.
You know, you have to, you have to, you have to go through it.
You have to go through it.
And if it's, if it's like for me, I mean, I had a daughter, so I didn't outwardly go
through everything.
I did a lot of crying in the shower and crying in my closet.

(01:06:56):
And I still have to leave the room sometimes because I can't take it, but you know, you
have to go through it and don't suppress it.
And you have to find a good outlet, a good, you know, somebody to talk to a therapist.
And another thing too is that I did not, I didn't even touch upon, but like what it
does to your marriage, a child loss, what it'll do to your marriage.

(01:07:19):
And the majority of couples who go through child loss don't come out of it together.
They don't.
And I've always saw, I saw an analogy and I think it fits, but it's like your, your
husband is on one lifeboat and you're on your own lifeboat and you can't save each other.
You have to save yourself because you can't get to that.

(01:07:39):
You have to save yourself and you each have to find your own way to get through it.
So having a strong marriage, having, talking about it, you know, taking time to, to talk
about your feelings together and seeking help as well, seeking, you know, a therapist or
what you need at the time, if it's working out or finding a hobby, like you have to do

(01:08:00):
these things.
And then just supporting your body, supporting your immune system, staying away from alcohol,
staying away from things that you know are going to trigger you.
You know, if you have to say no to that baby shower, say no to the baby shower because
I've had so many, I have friends that I get invited to baby showers and I don't go.

(01:08:21):
And I hope they understand why I don't go.
They've never asked, but I assume that they know why I can't go to those things.
And I don't know if that will ever change.
I don't know, but it's, it's setting up boundaries.
You know, if you don't feel comfortable in something, those, that first year after, after
the loss of a child, you have to set up boundaries.
You have to set up things that to protect you and to protect your family.

(01:08:47):
Friends will say the most horrible, horrible things to you.
And I've cut out many friends because they've said things that I just, you can't forget.
You can't tell them, tell them, tell them they tell you to suck it up.
Those aren't it.
If they tell you, well, you know, I went through this and I did this afterward and I'm okay.

(01:09:08):
Nope.
That's not it.
You have to protect yourself.
And if that means, you know, ceasing contact with family, ceasing contact with certain
friends, you got to do it and it sucks.
And maybe they'll come back.
Maybe after a couple of years, they'll come back around and you can repair what is, what
happened.
But in that moment, if it doesn't feed your soul in a way that feels good, you have to

(01:09:31):
have to put up those boundaries and stay away from that.
I could go on and on about things like that and it's just, you know, you just have to
kind of find your people and you have to find what feels good in that moment and protect
yourself, protect your child, protect your husband, you know, and then once the fog lifts,

(01:09:52):
then you can decide where you want to take this grief.
Do you want to take it in a good direction?
And that's what I feel a lot of lost parents do.
They can honor their child and honor their experience.
So backtracking a little bit.
What was your support system like?
I had a great support system.
My doula stuck by me, which way she would come over every day practically in those first

(01:10:18):
few weeks and we would talk things out.
And I would say, you know, because I was trying to rehash what happened and, you know, trying
to figure out what happened.
And she was amazing.
I had a lot of people that rallied around me, brought meals, you know, and I've, those,

(01:10:39):
a lot of people are nameless.
I don't even know who did some things for us.
But I hope they know that in that moment, just the kindness that they showed helped us.
So I appreciate that.
If any of you guys are listening and you didn't want me to know who you were, I do appreciate
that more than you know.

(01:11:02):
I still have a lot of friends that I, you know, my support system, you know, has pretty
much stayed very, very similar.
A few dropped out and it is what it is.
Child loss is not pretty.
Child loss is not.
You don't know what to say.
And I get that.

(01:11:22):
I do get that.
I wouldn't know what to say if it didn't happen to me.
But you know, some people fell out, you know, families, a lot of families, some family fell
out and that some family came around.
It's, you know, it's so weird what happens.
Were you able to establish any new relationships with people who have gone through similar

(01:11:42):
experiences?
I don't know anybody else really that's gone through what we went through.
I know people who have had stillbirths, miscarriages, that kind of thing.
But I don't know anybody who lost a baby due to traumatic homebirth.

(01:12:02):
And I think that's a very niche thing to try and like I would, because I don't feel like
it's not, it's just that when you talk to somebody, you know, you want to talk about
your trauma.
You want to talk out what happened and connect.
But I think what we went through was very, I know they're out there, but I think I'm
the only one that speaks up about it.

(01:12:25):
I don't think a lot of people who've had similar instances to me are very forthcoming,
as forthcoming as I am.
But that's just, that's my way.
I think a big reason for that too may be because the homebirth community is so pro-homebirth
and anti-hospital and there's not a lot of middle ground with it.

(01:12:46):
So if you've had a traumatic homebirth and you're speaking out about your traumatic homebirth,
and almost to a community who wants to only be about homebirth, they may be taking it
as you're talking trash about homebirth.
I'm reining on their parade.
Right.
Which, after knowing you and talking to you, that's not necessarily the case.

(01:13:07):
No.
I think it's more of a personal, like for me, mine was due to the provider.
And I know people who've had amazing homebirths and I know people who have had issues with
their homebirth.
They've had precipitous labors where they don't even, the midwife didn't show up, hasn't

(01:13:30):
shown up.
I know many of those.
I know, people reach out to me, but they don't speak up.
And I get that.
It's a very taboo thing.
We don't want to talk about the cautionary tale, which is what I'm dubbing myself, the
cautionary tale, whatever.

(01:13:50):
And I wanted that experience.
I would love to be able to sit down and talk about my ideal at homebirth.
I would love to tell you that story.
I don't have that story though.
So what I can only do is keep speaking out.
And you know, there's a lot more layers to my story that I feel a lot of people, if they

(01:14:14):
wanted to reach out and ask me about it or read my birth story, you know, it's a lot
easier to write it, to type it up than to actually speak about it without, you know, certain
things.
So I think it's kind of just, I'm the cautionary tale, so to speak.
And we don't want to talk about the cautionary tale.
We want you to believe that your body can do this.

(01:14:36):
And yes, your body can do this.
Your body's designed to do this.
And that wasn't really your problem, even with the breach.
No, mine was my providers.
And it was negligence and incompetent employees.
Well, I know that you and I had talked about this in the early part, right?

(01:14:58):
This is shortly after this had happened.
And I feel like I remember the midwife that did show up.
She was new, new to the job.
And your previous midwife or your midwife that's a post-dish up front.
The one that I paid for, yeah.
The primary midwife.
If I remember correctly, when the baby was breached earlier on, she was trying to tell

(01:15:24):
you like, don't worry.
I have had experience with this.
I know what to do in a situation like this if the baby decides to go back to breach.
Yes.
Okay.
I just wanted to clear that up with my memory because I couldn't remember.
Yeah, it was, it was.
I feel like you told me that.
Yeah.
And, you know, it was when, when I had that appointment where, you know, he did turn breach

(01:15:48):
on like just, just light palpating.
He just went up and I was told that, you know, I've done this before.
Don't get scared.
You know, if he happens to go breach during labor, we have the tools to handle it.
That's what I believed.
I've always believed that, you know, birth is a, you know, it's a normal thing.

(01:16:10):
It's not, it's not an emergency until it happened to me.
And then it was just like, wow, you have to have people that are equipped and there's
a plan in place and people that do what they say they're going to do and show up when they
say they're going to show up, maybe skip the bank, maybe like do, maybe skip the errands.

(01:16:33):
You know, because I, this was my second birth.
It was not going to be long.
My first one was not long.
My labor was not long.
So this is, this is all.
And you're so in tune with your body just as a human.
I knew exactly what was going on, you know, and looking back now and when the secondary
provider was in the emergency room saying, he flipped, he flipped, he was, you know,

(01:16:57):
he must have flipped.
There's literally after all the research I've done, there is no way for a baby, an eight
pound one ounce baby with a massive head.
You to felt that to go from head down to head up in labor.
You to felt it a million times over.
It's impossible.
I have done so much research after this and spoken to other midwives around the country.

(01:17:26):
And they said that the likelihood of that happening is just like getting struck by lightning.
Yeah.
Well, and it feels probably like you're going to get struck by lightning because there's
times when babies are breached back in debt, you know, a long time ago when the doctors
would literally put their hands in it and turn that baby.
And that's not comfortable to say the least.
You know it's happening.

(01:17:47):
So if a big baby is turning, you to felt it.
Yeah.
You to felt it.
Eight pounds one ounces was he was in the small child, especially that transverse.
When they get to that transverse side when they're like sideways, I had one of my kids
turn a little on the later side when they were bigger and I was sleeping woke me up.
Yeah.

(01:18:07):
It was like took my breath away.
What is happening?
I didn't know it was going on.
There's so little room in there for them to do that.
And the other thing too that going back and like looking at pictures from that my photographer
took.
And this is this blows my mind because I can go back and I can see it.
But my my belly was a shelf.
So it was flat right on the front.

(01:18:31):
And he came out, you know, sunny side up essentially breach.
So it's like he was there and this was an early labor.
So he was, he'd been there the whole time.
He was breached the whole time.
But nobody caught it because they were too nervous to palpitate.
They were too nervous to palpitate.
And it's like, I understand that.
What about an old like a Doppler like, you know, where his heart is, you know what I

(01:18:55):
mean, they can tell if the heart's too high up, the baby's too, you know, obviously that
was done apparently, but I don't know how it just it wasn't maybe he was, you know,
I don't know.
But he, you know, he there was there's no way that he could have gone from head down
to head up in labor.
It's just impossible.

(01:19:15):
So that that argument kind of has always, you know, gotten to me, you know, and that
was the thing.
I find myself to that point where like, well, that was his comfortable spot.
He was comfortable being breach.
It wasn't anything that I did wrong or my body did wrong.
It was comfortable for maybe my, you know, umbilical cord was, wasn't long enough.
Maybe whatever.
I don't know.

(01:19:36):
But essentially, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things.
It's all the percentages cause like he was footling breach, which is so, you know, it's
like less than 4% of breach cases are footling.
If he would have been Frank breach, then it probably would have, you know, obviously opened
me up and moved him down a lot easier.
The footling breach, there's no, you know, it makes it so much harder.

(01:20:01):
Yeah.
So it's just learning about all the breaches and everything.
And I'm just like, you know, it's what ifs, what ifs, what ifs, but, and you had that
in your, you know, you had said earlier, breaches, the variation of normal, right?
So do you think about like if that provider was, would not have been there and you ended
up doing this on your own?

(01:20:23):
Your doula was probably more equipped to handle this birth and the midwife that was sent to
you.
I think about that.
Just my opinion.
I think about it all the time.
Because it was her, it was her stress and her freaking out was what triggered your body
to go into that fight or flight mode.
And we had, we discussed this on another episode.
Um, are you familiar with the childbirth and fear?

(01:20:44):
I think it's what it's called the book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where he talks about like that's what, that's what animals do when, when, when a cat is in
labor and they're in danger, everything tightens up, they pick up and they find a safe place.
Yes.
It's, I think about that all the time.
I always think like, what if I just would have done it myself?
What I have, what I've known what to do, you know, and the dangling, none of that was done.

(01:21:10):
The whole supporting there.
And this was the other thing.
And I know we've probably talked about this towel, make sure that baby doesn't get cold.
But you're not supposed to pull.
Never.
And you're not supposed to touch the baby.
You're just supposed to wrap warm towel around the baby, but not touch any of the extremities.
Well, I was pulled.
He was pulled.
Right.

(01:21:31):
She was pulling.
She was yanking.
She was freaking out.
She was freaking out.
And that's, and people said that's another, another, I've talked to them, like I said,
I've talked to a lot of midwives and they said what they think happened probably to when
she touched him and pulled his morrow kicked in like this, tipped his head back and his
chin got stuck.
I don't, I don't know that, but I, I don't know if that's the case.

(01:21:53):
That's, you know, that's just, you know, hearsay, whatever.
But I mean, you're not supposed to, I dangle the whole, like I, you know, the platform
that you angle like this and let him just kind of work.
You don't rush it.
You just let the body do.
Let the body and gravity do what they're supposed to do.

(01:22:14):
Because your cervix probably wasn't open all the way.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's in shoulders.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, I was, I was a breach baby.
Right.
And yeah, I went and had down in the last hour.
Wow.
Yeah.
I was, I was, uh, breached the whole time my mom got to the hospital and the doctor said,
okay, I'm going to give you about two or three hours to fix this, you know, and did

(01:22:39):
all, he did all the things and my mom did all the things.
And then I ended up, he was, he was palpitating and just tried to move and position me.
And I forgot what else my mom told me they tried to do, but she was doing things as well.
And in like the last hour I went head down.
Wow.
Yeah.
Your poor mom, that probably hurt.
Yeah.

(01:23:00):
I actually know the midwife that was there for Steph's birth.
She was the birth assistant for the birth of my second child.
Okay.
Coincidentally.
Um, but I was just thinking that knowing the amount of time that she was with the provider

(01:23:21):
that delivered my children, I feel like she would have seen or had some experience with
breach birth and the very least over there before being hired at this new company.
And you had said that she had only been technically a midwife for a year at that point.

(01:23:42):
It was about a year, I think.
Do you know what she's doing now?
I do not.
I do not keep up with her.
I don't blame you.
I was just curious to see if she's still practicing.
I pretty sure her license is still active.
Okay.
That's infuriating.
It's very infuriating.
There's not a lot of recourse in the state of Florida for certain things.

(01:24:05):
Um, the state of Florida only requires X amount of liability and it's minimal, minimal, minimal,
minimal.
And you don't have to, it doesn't matter on the scope of your practice or how many
patients you have, anything like that.
There's just, there's not a whole lot.
You can, you can, there's reports that are filed underneath the act, the midwife, not

(01:24:29):
the midwifery, but the midwife.
And so can, can anybody else that's pregnant find these reports?
Are they public?
Um, yeah, you can go on the Florida health department of health website and you could
search on providers names and you could pull up, but you could pull up certain things.
Cause anytime that, from what I'm gathering that anytime in the state of Florida where

(01:24:53):
a, an attempted home birth is transferred to a hospital, there has to be an investigation
done as to why.
And you know, if there's a death, obviously that's investigated.
So there's certain things that, you know, that the state of Florida has to do under
those circumstances.

(01:25:13):
And so what was the outcome of the investigation with yours?
Um, not a whole lot, uh, with the, that was, it's, it's, it's listed there, but that's
about it.
But this person is not considered at fault.
Um, in the state of Florida's eyes?
No, I don't, I don't know how that worked.

(01:25:34):
I had an investigator call me and like right after, and I did not want to deal with it
at the time.
But then once I kind of came to a little bit and, you know, had other things that were
going on, I was like, okay, I'll, I'll reach out to them and, you know, figure out what's
going on.
And she, you know, proceeds to tell me other things that I didn't know, you know, and then

(01:25:55):
um, a big news article came out.
Do you guys remember that?
Um, it was called, uh, failure to deliver or something like that.
This is about your story?
This was about, uh, home births around the country.
Oh.
So I didn't know about this, but then they did a local section with the news press.
Okay.

(01:26:16):
And my best friends, like this was in August, so three months after she's like, um, did
you see the news press article?
I'm like, no, she goes, you're mentioned in it and your son's in it.
I'm like, what?
Nobody even asked you?
No, because the, the, the reporter went back and went through all of these, these stories,

(01:26:36):
um, around Southwest Florida with certain midwiferies and found our, what happened to
us and, and, and reported on it.
Wow.
Yeah.
How did that make you feel?
Not real good because then I found out other things, you know, about other deaths that
occurred and, and is that with this particular practice or just home birth in general?

(01:26:57):
Uh, particular practice.
And then with other midwiferies in the area, you know, Sarasota, like it was just, it was,
you know, it was, I didn't know anything about this.
And, you know, to have my name mentioned and my son's name mentioned and, and his death
and it was just such an invasion of privacy.
It was an invasion of privacy, but it's all public with the state of Florida.

(01:27:22):
You know, so I wonder if it's public, if it's in a hospital because of, you know, HIPAA
and all of that.
I feel like a name wouldn't be public in a hospital.
You would think I have no, I don't know how this was.
I never, and at that time, like I said, it was three months post.
So I wasn't, that wasn't the battle I was trying to fight at the time.
Yeah.
I mean, I can still pull up the article and I still know exactly where it is.

(01:27:44):
But I don't really, you know, it was, it was in news press.
Um, but I think it was like the Sarasota news press.
So I wouldn't have had access to it.
Right.
But my best friend did and she's like, Steph.
And I was like, okay, what is that?
And, you know, kind of set me back a little.
But yeah, I mean, there's, that was, that was the most, that was what the talk was.

(01:28:05):
And I don't know what happened after that.
I'm glad that there was an article though, because then it's shedding light on how people
should do their due diligence when it comes to choosing a provider and asking questions.
And also, you know, maybe this person that was there at your birth that shouldn't have

(01:28:27):
been there.
Um, she may have had a squeaky clean record in the one year that she was practicing, but
it only takes, takes one person, you know, one, one not so good situation to now have
a not squeaky clean record.

(01:28:47):
So you can do your due diligence.
You could have looked her up and been like, oh, she's great and had no idea.
I think what it's, it's one of those things where I will never get answers as to why the
provider that I hired chose not to come to my birth.

(01:29:10):
And that's, that's like, I've, you know, I've, I've, I've been trying to work through that
for these last five years because it's like, what was, what was wrong with me?
What was wrong with my son that there was, that it was not important, you know?
Did they talk to you at all?
No, probably couldn't, right?
No.
Like legally that they couldn't or they wouldn't?

(01:29:31):
Probably.
And I, I would not see, they showed up the next day at the hospital and wanted to speak
with me and I did not want to speak with them because that was no, I don't want to speak
to you.
What I mean in the, in the past five years at all, have you had any communication though?
Nope.
No, and nothing, um, you know, nothing.

(01:29:54):
So you had said earlier, you know, talking about the article that that was not your fight
at the time.
What was your fight?
Well, uh, I guess waking up every day, uh, but also to figuring out what were the ramifications
of what we just went through.
Um, we know, you know, the, the piling amount of medical bills that we're showing up on

(01:30:19):
my doorstep, you know, um, uh, a son that's not there, you know, uh, the medical bills
from him, uh, medical bills, obviously from me, uh, therapist bills.
Did you seek legal counsel?
We did seek legal counsel and that has been settled.
That has been settled.

(01:30:39):
Yeah.
Nothing would ever replace our son, obviously.
Yeah.
In the state of Florida with their laws and what they require, it's a drop in the bucket
and that's just how the law, the legal system is designed for medical providers.
You would think that after what we went through, but it's, it's like I said, there's nothing

(01:31:01):
that'll ever replace him.
I think it's more for me is just getting the story out there, getting our voices heard
and making sure that, uh, you know, like said, do, do diligence, but sometimes due diligence
isn't, you have to rely on somebody's word.
And if they don't keep to their word, right, that's when the things can happen.

(01:31:24):
So you have to have a real good.
I guess, uh, what's the intuition about somebody.
So if you were able to fight to change laws or anything like that, is there something
that could have been done in any way that you can think of to prevent the incompetence,

(01:31:45):
negligence of, I think an ultrasound, an ultrasound.
Um, I think, and that's, that's, you know, I know a lot of people go into the home birth
realm because they don't want to do the invasive things.
Um, and part of that is ultrasounds.
A lot of people don't like.
I don't like all or cervical checks.
I don't like ultrasounds.
Um, you know, but when you go from a medical model, like what I did with my, my hospital

(01:32:09):
birth with my daughter, which was seamless, it was perfect to the home birth.
You kind of expect I held them, I wouldn't say to high standards because I was coming
from the hospital model.
You know, I think cervical checks, you know, especially if that the baby is transverse or
you know, has propensity to go breach.
I mean, these things need to be done.

(01:32:31):
And I think midwives need to sometimes put their foot down and say, no, we have to do
this.
We have to check and check baby's placement.
Um, cause you can't go saying that, you know, you're, you're, you know, you have, you can
deliver a breach birth, but you're not there.
So it's, you know, you can be as knowledgeable as you claim to be, but if you don't show

(01:32:58):
up in that moment, then that's, that doesn't help me at all.
Right.
Um, if I would have known that he was breach, then yes, transfer me to the hospital on my
39th week or whenever and we will set a C section date because I'm not going to put
my son's life in danger.
Even if you're claiming that you will be there or that in the event that he does go breach,

(01:33:23):
you can deliver him, but you're not there.
Right.
So now my son is no longer here and I am left with the what ifs.
And honestly, I think that it's, I love the hands off aspect of it, but sometimes you got
to be hands on.
There's, there's times and I've heard other stories where, you know, the hands off approach

(01:33:44):
hasn't really turned out well for the mother or the baby, you know, and in my predicament,
what I, what we went through, then I would have to say, you know, just even if it's an
ultrasound, just a, just a quick ultrasound, just check and make sure the baby's head down
in those later weeks, you know, or cervical checks, you know, up until leading up until

(01:34:08):
something's going to have to protect the mom and the baby.
Had you had a cervical check when the midwife, not the one you hired, but the replacement,
I had no cervical checks.
How do you have a cervical check?
She probably would have.
Yep.
Found it.
Found his foot.
Right.

(01:34:28):
I have, I didn't have one cervical check, my whole pregnancy with him.
And what would she have reacted in the same manner?
Possibly, but it might have been early enough.
Yeah, it would have been early enough to get me to the hospital.
And you're literally five minutes away from the hospital.
Yeah.
I would have, well, I would have, yeah, I would have gone to health park.
But in the event that it was an actual, like an emergency.

(01:34:48):
Yeah, like an emergency.
Delftus is a trauma center.
Yeah.
So that could, they could have just took any right there.
They'd have known what to do.
They would have.
You know.
Now, is there any, you know, is there any incompetence?
Do you feel like the, the EMS team did their due diligence?
I felt they did as much as they can do what they're, they cannot do a PZOdemy's.

(01:35:10):
Why?
They trained for a year on every aspect of trauma, not just birth.
So they're only trained up to so much.
Yeah.
They couldn't, I couldn't imagine that they would have an idea what to do.
I feel like that's something that they should know how to do.
They don't, they provide life saving care.
And that's considered life saving.
Honestly though.
That's, yeah, it was very invasive.

(01:35:31):
I mean, from what I've gathered with talking to the EMS is they are not trained to do that.
They're trained to provide life saving care and to get you stable once you get to the
hospital.
Right.
But they couldn't, they, I mean, that was, that's.
That's an intricate and detailed.
I had, I already had a pretty gnarly experience with golf, with the hospital that did the

(01:35:55):
a PZOdemy.
It was, you know, don't think I would have wanted an EMT to do it, but I don't, you
know, that moment, I don't think it was, it was so, the time was just of the essence
of that point.
So I wouldn't have cared.
Right.
Hell, I would have done it.
That's what you said.
You know?
Yeah, that's what you said.
So, but they, but that was the thing is they fought.

(01:36:15):
And that, how much time was wasted over them arguing?
Yeah.
Right.
Because she didn't want to do it.
But we're freaking out just in general, infuriates me.
Yeah.
Infuriates me.
Yeah.
I'm so thankful for your doula.
I know, I am too.
That was there and just to keep, just to keep calm and make a very logical suggestion.
Yeah.
I think the doula would know.

(01:36:37):
And maybe midwives aren't trained in breach anymore because they're just automatically
sent to the, you know, C-section date typically.
Hopefully.
So maybe that's, maybe she just had zero experience or training.
Well, but you know, the primary one though, she was, that was her thing, you know, she
went to Mexico and, you know, delivered babies down there and did 66th breach birth or something

(01:37:03):
like that.
I forgot how she told me.
She oversaw that or something.
I am so pissed that she didn't show up.
I remember though, after they wanted to send the secondary midwife to my house to do a
checkup on me.
I said, no.
I don't want to see her face again.
No.
And she kept calling and I was like, I don't, you know, and so.

(01:37:26):
I'm surprised that she even had the balls to do that.
Right?
Want to show up.
I went to Miranda after to go get checked up.
I was like, I'm not going and that's why my dual is like, go see Miranda, at least get
everything looked at, make sure you're okay.
Like healing after the surgery and everything.
Yeah.
Healing.
Well, because I didn't want to see her, but like, no.
Well you had a surgery.

(01:37:47):
If you were doing a home birth, that was going to be, that, that was your primary for all
of the lady.
Yes.
Yeah.
So who are you supposed to follow up with?
Probably that practice that you're not going to, I wouldn't either.
I'd go to Miranda too.
That's what I did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How is he doing?
He has his moments.
Seeing his wife, he's grieving.

(01:38:08):
You're like, not, obviously not losing you, but your grief, watching his wife go through
this.
Um, he is happening to his son.
Imagine like, because I, he was in, he wasn't in the, the ambulance with me.
Okay.
So he was in my doula, took him to the hospital.

(01:38:28):
They were right behind us in the ambulance.
So I mean, he's, he's cycled through it all, you know, and then through the anger with,
Oh, I bet.
With the midwifery and the, I mean, he was just like, you know, as a man, you want to
protect your family and he couldn't protect us and he couldn't, you know, and he watched
it all go down in real time.
Whereas, you know, me, like I said, I'm in labor land.

(01:38:50):
I'm going to my safe space.
I didn't open my eyes.
My eyes did not open until I looked over and saw my son, but I kept my eyes closed because
that's how I retreat.
So I, you know, he saw it all.
And what did, what did he do for his mental health?
Um, you know, men though, they're, they're hard.
Sometimes he either dove himself into his work.

(01:39:15):
Um, that didn't work out for us because they, you know, he got let go.
Yeah.
I remember that.
That was like really soon after he got let go four months after he, you know, he got let
go four months after he, you know, he got let go four months after he got let go four
months after he got let go four months after he got let go four months after he got let
go four months away.
So I, you know, he got let go from that.
So, I mean it was just, he just cycled through all the motions and it was hard because when
I was up, he was down.
So it's like your never, you would never, we're never on the same levels on our grief.

(01:39:38):
Yeah.
So, but it might be helpful though, because if both of you were down, who's going to
be there for your kids?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, you know, but I was, I'm, I'm, I'm more, I think I'm a little bit more resilient.
Just as a woman, I think we're just, we're more resilient.
We just have to be, you know, choice.
You know, so, you know, I tried to be the rock a lot.
And sometimes I got sick of that, you know,

(01:40:00):
because I needed somebody.
But we kind of cycled through, but now, you know,
after five years we're both at good places.
So, yeah.
That's really good.
Yeah.
Tell our listeners how they can find you
if they would like to purchase anything
through Good Heart and Mama.
So you can go on my website, GoodHeartandMama.com.
I don't have all my products uploaded
because some of them I cannot ship.

(01:40:23):
Things like Firesider and some of the cleaning products
that I make.
But you can catch me on Facebook
on Good Heart and Mama or on Instagram as well.
And I talk about some of the markets
that I'm gonna be doing, pop-ups that I do.
I also do free local deliveries in Lee County.
So if you need anything, reach out to me
and I'll bring it out to you as well.

(01:40:44):
So, awesome.
That's what you did for me.
I did.
I have some of your products too.
Sicki.
Because she dropped it off to my house.
On your doorstep.
I was too.
So I'm like, I'm not gonna give this to you,
whatever I had, it was awful.
Yes, no, I do appreciate that.
The cough lasted forever.
I will do doorstep delivery.
Yes.
So if you're sick, if you're actively sick, yes,

(01:41:05):
just let me know and I will actively deliver it
right to your doorstep, no contact.
So, and you don't have to.
Is your story, the write-up story,
on your Good Heart and Mama website
or is that a separate blog?
No, so that's separate.
If you wanted to read my birth story,
you know, it's a little bit more concise
than what I did today, but it's,
it took me a long time,

(01:41:25):
but it's goodheartandmamablog.com.
So there you'll see our whole birth story
and some pictures and, you know,
connect with me on things and, you know,
I'm trying to blog more,
but it's kind of hard to get your feelings down.
But yeah, everything's on there.
Okay, awesome.

(01:41:47):
Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you, thank you ladies.
Appreciate it.
We wanted to have you on here.
Like I said, since this was,
you were the very first person that we talked about.
Oh, I appreciate that.
Yeah. Thank you for like.
And this was back when our idea was like,
way off from what we're actually doing.
I know, but look at you now.
I know.
So awesome.
You said you were doing it.
I was like, oh, that's great.

(01:42:07):
And then, and then like.
It was like months.
Boom, boom, you're out there.
I was like, wow, look at them go.
Yeah. It's great.
We've taken the last two weeks off
because of the hurricane and a big editing snafu.
Yeah. Yeah.
My lots of tech issues.
Lots of not having power, not having internet.
Sat us back pretty bad.
Those hurricanes.
Fuck.

(01:42:28):
Just glad it's over.
Hopefully soon.
I'm just going to say it's over.
It's over.
It's over.
November 30th.
It's really over.
But it's over.
We're on the down, the downturn now.
So yeah.
Yeah. I feel just get colder now.
We had a little bit of like a tease.
Yes.
And now it's humid as hell again.
It's beautiful though at night.
It is. I take the dog out.

(01:42:48):
It's gorgeous.
Yes.
I love it so much.
So Victoria, how can people find us?
Oh God, I don't know.
She always does the ending and I don't know.
I don't know.
You can find us on Instagram at ICEI underscore podcast
or on Facebook at I can't even imagine dash a podcast

(01:43:09):
for moms and very soon we will have a website.
So be listening for updates on that.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you.
Bye.
Can anyone else, any more crash issues?

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