December 30, 2024 • 23 mins
In this deeply moving episode, we meet Mindy Greenstein, a woman who has lived with metastatic breast cancer for over 17 years. Mindy shares the profound emotional journey she experienced after a medication change caused her to lose all her hair, including her eyebrows and lashes. What might have seemed like a devastating loss became an unexpected gift—liberating her from a lifelong fear of vulnerability. She reflects on how this transformation reshaped her sense of self, strengthened her relationships, and allowed her to celebrate milestones like watching her son graduate from college.
Lorraine Massey joins Mindy in reflecting on resilience, community, and the power of authentic connections. Together, they explore the emotional impact of beauty, from Mindy’s experiences with wigs made of natural hair to a listener’s journey of embracing her natural curls and, over time, her silver hair in Miami’s humid climate. Through heartfelt conversations and practical hair care tips, this episode celebrates self-expression and the strength found in embracing life’s imperfections.
Whether you’re facing adversity, redefining your self-image, or simply seeking inspiration, this conversation is a testament to the healing power of support, community, and the beauty of embracing your authentic self.
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys, and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls CouldTalk.
Today we are thrilled to bringback my good friend, mindy
(00:23):
Greenstein.
She is an author, speaker and apsychologist who specializes in
cancer and maturing and hasbeen living with metastatic
breast cancer for many years.
Join us as Mindy shares heruplifting and surprising journey
after being told her medicationneeded to be switched.
If you haven't heard Mindy'sfirst interview yet, be sure to
(00:43):
go back and take a listen.
So welcome back, mindy.
Welcome back to the podcast.
How are you?
How are you feeling?
What has happened since we lastsaw you?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh, my goodness, so much has happened.
Well, I will start by sayingI'm in a good place, that is
what we want to hear.
But I will also say that it'sbeen quite up and down and quite
challenging.
As you recall, when last we metour heroine, she was just
starting a new cancer treatmentand she might or might not lose
(01:12):
her hair and what's going tohappen?
So drumroll, please.
I lost every hair on my body.
This was not the way I wantedit to go and it's been extremely
challenging.
But I'm ending up in a goodplace.
But I've got lots of adventuresto tell you about.
So when you think cancer, a youthink baldness and B you think
(01:34):
death.
Well, I've had cancer now for17 years and I'm pretty sure I'm
still alive, based on all theevidence that I see.
And it wasn't until this yearthat I went bald.
This was actually my first timeand one thing that I realized
when I finally lost all of it,it was very liberating because
(01:57):
for certainly the last sevenyears I've always been waiting
for that shoe to drop, and Iwasn't consciously waiting, it
was just always there.
And it was only once I wastotally bald that I realized
that that one particular stresshad just completely lifted.
I had many other stresses thatreplaced it.
So I'm not saying thank you tocancer, but it was notable that
(02:22):
this fear I had okay.
So the worst thing happened andnow I get to deal.
Can I, can't I?
Well, I can as it turns out, andI feel like it was a road that
has really, really taught me alot, but the most important
thing is a certain kind ofperspective In particular.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Man, I put so much energy into just this hair thing
Can you take us back to thoseearly years right after your
diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
When I was diagnosed 17 years ago, my younger son was
five and I did not know would Iget to see this kid grow up?
And if I didn't, would heremember me when he grew up?
And, as you might expect, itwas a rather upsetting thought.
In two days I'm attending hiscollege graduation.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I cannot wait to see the pictures of that too.
And he's a curly boy too, isn'the?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Not this one.
This one has straight hair.
This one is very preppy looking.
In fact, the older one refersto him as coming from the rich
side of the family because hehas this very preppy look.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I think your son may have curls if he grows his hair.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Oh well you know, I shouldn't speak.
This is something you wouldknow better than.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I I think everybody has curly hair.
Unless I find out otherwise,you would know better than I.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I think everybody has curly hair, unless I find out
otherwise.
So he does have this oneparticular wave, which my
husband refers to as a Gumby,because it goes like of course
it's a podcast, so yourlisteners can't see this, but
there's this huge, almostpompadour-y thing that happens
just when he wakes up in themorning and he doesn't do
anything to it.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, that's a wave to me.
Any bend, even the slightestbend, it's like wow, there's a
possibility.
You must be right about that.
Tell us a little bit more aboutwhat you're doing about your no
hair.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay.
So that has been multipleadventures and, interestingly,
it actually hasn't been thehardest one.
The hardest has been my browsand lashes.
And again, out in podcast land.
You can't see this, butLorraine will attest to the fact
that.
Can you tell I have no brows orlashes.
You look beautiful.
I have to say, lorraine hasbeen such an amazing part of
(04:41):
this adventure.
As I mentioned last time, one ofthe things that gave me
strength was that I knew she wasgoing to help me, and indeed
she did.
In the beginning, every day Iwent a couple of weeks before my
hair started falling, I wouldwear different hats and wear
different scarves and try tofind a look.
My favorite look was what Icalled my mosh pit look, which
(05:02):
lasted for all of two days, andthen too much hair came out and
I needed to find a new one.
This is one of the ways inwhich losing it all was kind of
liberating, but I finallydecided you know what I need,
lorraine to cut my hair reallyshort.
I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have
anything.
So we hair really short.
I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have
anything.
(05:22):
So you made a house call andyou came over At that
haircutting event.
It became really clear when youcut my hair that there's no way
I'm going to be able to keepthis hair at all, because there
were already these huge likewastelands of scalp that were
completely visible throughwhatever hair I had.
But even though I knew wherethis was leading, I just didn't
(05:42):
have it in me to take it all offyet I just wasn't ready.
I didn't even look at wigs atall because I was putting all my
energy into how to make themost of the hair that I've
gotten All this time.
The doctors didn't know, thenurses did not know the hair
stopped falling out, might stayput at some point.
So I had to have faith that Iwas going to keep it and I
(06:06):
didn't, and I think I managed togo all of three days before I
called you and said I think youneed to shave it off for me
today.
And sort of the pièce derésistance was that once I was
totally commando.
My son my preppy comes from therich side of the family.
Son was just amazed at what hedescribed as my unnaturally
(06:29):
symmetric scalp and he keptlooking at my head and rather
than seeing even an ounce oflike horror, which is what I
would have expected.
He was just sort of amazed.
I still got to keep my browsand lashes for a while.
They went the last.
But then came the whole wigadventure and that was somewhat
nightmarish, especially comingfrom the whole curly girl
(06:51):
tradition.
You know, I found normal sizewigs are too big for me and I
have really sensitive skin on myscalp and it was really sort of
a nightmare finding a wig.
Ultimately, I knew I was goingto have to have something custom
made.
And also for me, unlike peoplein the early parts of the whole
cancer thing, if I'm lucky, I'mgoing to be bald for a long time
(07:13):
, because that means my medswill continue working for a long
time.
If I grow my hair back, itmeans that my meds stopped
working.
So, finding the right wig makerwho understands the whole no, I
don't want to be blow dryingand using curling irons and this
is and that's.
No, I don't want to.
But I managed to find afabulous, fabulous guy and he's
(07:36):
terrific.
He's a real artist, artisan andhe really understood the whole.
Yeah, I don't really want tobrush it, although you can't get
away with not brushing a wig atall.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What about shampoo?
You don't shampoo it either, doyou?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
He suggested a tiny bit of baby shampoo, but I'm
thinking I could use a tiny bitof at least Non sulfate yeah, at
least a sulfate free, but very,very, very little.
I hardly have to wash it at alland I start using my fingers,
but at some point I just sayfuck it and.
I have like a wide tooth comb,but then I just say, fuck it
again.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I'm using the brush, and you know whatever, you
probably feel the need to brushand comb because you are using
shampoo.
Even baby shampoo is still adetergent.
It dehydrates and it tanglesthe hair.
You need to treat your wig justlike you treat your own hair.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I can't be completely kosher, but I use your gel, the
leave-in lover, leave-in lover.
Right, I use the leave-in lover.
I actually still use your, notthe shampoo, the chamfri for my
scalp yeah, it's very hydrating.
Yes it's great.
So that's been a whole learningprocess too, because I kept
feeling like there were pointswhere oh, I better not tell
(08:47):
Lorraine I'm using a brush.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Since the hair is not attached to a root system,
there's no blood flow Right,there's no sebum.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And the shampoo still bothers me a little bit because
that kind of raised the cuticleand lifts the cuticles up.
I would still want to use justa very mild cleanser, right,
because you want to preserve andprotect this beautiful wig.
That was very expensive, wasn'tit?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, it was very expensive and I also want it for
a long time, exactly, but it'sdifferent than the usual process
, because in the usual process,you're dealing with your scalp.
In this case, I I'm really I'mdealing with the hair, and it's
human hair, yeah, and it's alittle bit on the coarse side,
so it gets in knots very justjust by moving around, just by
moving around, just by sitting,if I'm leaning against something
(09:31):
.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It's real hair, you're wearing it.
But that's a good sign too.
You know you're not justsedentary, you're not just
sitting still and you're notwearing it like a hat.
You're right, you're notwearing it like a hat.
You're living with it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The last thing that I needed to do to kind of
liberate me was I outed myselfon Facebook.
I was so terrified of peopleseeing my bald head that I
realized this was not a way tolive, because my bald head is me
and it's going to be with mefor a while.
So I took a bald selfie and Iput it on Facebook.
(10:05):
It's beautiful.
I did see that, oh, you did.
And I had a magnificentresponse, by which I mean not
only was everyone nice that Iexpected, they were nice in the
best way.
That just made me feel soconnected to humanity.
And once I did that, I was nolonger terrified.
I was like people are going tosee it.
I came up with a look, my newlook, which I'm not wearing
(10:27):
right now, which I called themiddle-aged biker fashionista
look.
So black t-shirts, jeans, redscarf and my bald head.
So at some point I'll be readyto debut in public.
But I have lots of differentchoices.
For me, the key is I alwaysneed to feel like I have a
choice.
And I needed the wig because Ineeded that to be one of my
(10:50):
choices.
And I have a secret for any ofyour listeners who has a problem
with wigs, and the secret sauceis something called scar tape.
It's a very simple tape.
It's got adhesive on one sideand silicone on the other, very
thin.
You just put it upside down inthe cap so that the silicone is
the part that's touching yourscalp and the itching is gone.
(11:13):
I was having a really hard time.
I was afraid that even thiscustom-made wig I wasn't going
to be able to wear.
That's good, that is good toknow, that made the difference,
and the other thing I thinkthat's important to know and I
think this is true for everyone,not just wig wearers is that
one of the reasons it looksnatural is that it's not perfect
.
It's a little frizzy.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Functional frizz.
It's functional, Functionalright.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, functional frizz , which I like.
Right, it gives me a littlevolume, it looks very natural,
but I do not look like I justcame out of a salon.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It doesn't look like a glassy wig.
They're the ones that I don'tlike.
You know where they're soglassy?
You know it's not real.
They look more like doll hairRight.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
This looks so natural .
One of for me is that I wantedto sort of match my hair, which
was gray and it's very hard tofind long gray hair.
It requires a lot of hair tomake a wig and there's not a lot
of long gray hair available.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
We do a lot of big haircuts and the way I cut it
off, I save the hair, I justplace it beautifully and then I
have people around the worldthat could also.
That's a lot of wig hair thatyou could have, no, but it's a
share.
So it's like oh, my friendMindy, she has very silver,
light, curly hair.
If anyone's cutting their hairoff at any particular time, save
(12:31):
it, send it to us, and it'sonly for cancer or alopecia
nothing else, as hairdressers,we could be on this program now
that would be so helpful to eachother and helping each other.
We have a donation program, butit's set for you individually.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Right, so you have like a particular color and
texture in mind.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, unless you do want to do a play one.
But then you can go to any wigstore and get one, because
sometimes synthetic wigs can befine for a night.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Oh yes, and one thing that I found so fascinating is
I've done this deep dive.
I practically have three PhDsin hair brow and lashes, which I
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I want to know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I do feel like I want to share this information
because it's a very overwhelmingemotionally overwhelming every
single one of these.
I really want this informationto be useful to somebody other
than just me.
One thing that's fascinatingabout the whole synthetic hair
thing is there are a lot ofvideos on how to make your
synthetic hair look more natural, and basically every single
(13:34):
thing they recommend is adifferent way of beating it up.
What makes it look unnatural isthat it looks so perfect, it
looks so shiny.
So you know they take theseshears and they cut it up and
they put stuff on it to dampenthe shine, like the opposite of
what you go to a hairstylistusually to do.
And my favorite thing is what'scalled rooted.
(13:55):
They refer to it as a morenatural looking wig.
The roots are showing, sobasically you look like somebody
who is dyeing their hair buthasn't gotten to the colorist in
time, and so your roots areshowing, and I just love this
notion that well, what makes thewig look natural is doing an
unnatural thing to your hair,because why would you buy a wig
(14:18):
whose roots are showing?
And in fact, it's like thebiggest thing rooted wigs and
they do look great because theyknow how to make the roots show
in exactly the right way.
So it looks interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You know, you've been your own advocate, Mindy, which
is so amazing.
I mean, whenever we see you,you're always so positive and
you're always so inspirational.
But do you have some lonelymoments?
I mean, you must, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
My family and friends would not recognize me in that
description and I am not apositive person in the sense
that often people think ofpositivity.
Quite a downer that way,because I'm very reality based
and when somebody says oh yourhair will grow back and I'll be
like, no, that means my medicinestopped working.
That doesn't mean I'm notpositive.
(15:08):
It's just that we all have adifferent way of being positive
and in fact it is an extremelylonely process.
I've learned to try to not gettoo attached to good news.
When I get a good scan, that'sfabulous, but that's it.
That was that moment and I keepmoving.
But especially when it's cometo the hair thing was a real
crossroads, because that's sortof where your insides meet your
(15:32):
outsides and other peoplerespond to you in a way that
could make you feel worse.
They don't mean to, but theycould in fact be responding bad
I'll put quotes around badly,because they love you and it's
upsetting to them, but the upseton their face reminds you that
you have cancer.
And in fact I feel really good.
And if the look on your face isgoing to remind me that I'm a
(15:54):
sick person, I will feel like asick person.
And one thing that I've had andparticularly now, because I'm so
plugged into social media as away of connecting to the world
and so much of my social mediais full of oh how crappy social
media is, whereas for me it'sactually been kind of a godsend
in terms of keeping me connected.
(16:16):
Now I do stay connected with myfriends physically and see them
, but especially during COVIDthat was really dicey sometimes.
You know, one of the mosthelpful videos for me was a
woman, kind of a model, who hasall these makeup videos showing
how she draws in individualeyebrow hairs.
It's a lonely, difficultprocess and one of the things
(16:38):
that it's done for me and one ofthe reasons that I'm in a good
place, is that all these womenwho put up these videos some men
, fewer men, mostly are women.
A lot of them are women whodon't go out of their house
without makeup on.
They don't go out of theirhouse without their wig on, but
they put themselves on theinterweb full on bald heads so
you can see their alopecia ortheir chemo stuff, so that they
(17:00):
can teach you how to do whatthey've learned to do.
And I'll never meet these women, most likely in real life, but
I feel like a love for them.
I start every day creating whatI consider my own little
artistic masterpiece, and I dopaint, so my face is now my
canvas and I start the dayhaving accomplished something by
(17:23):
creating, you know, brows andlashes that make me feel good.
The reason I start the day offthat way is because it was so
upsetting to see my face in themirror without brows or lashes.
The beanball did not bother menearly as much as the lack of
the brows and lashes, and I dothis one-minute thing.
(17:44):
I get some manner of brow andlash on.
Just that's good enough for me.
I think all of these things arereasons that I'm in a good
place right now, even though I'dmuch rather have none of this
knowledge.
I'd much rather be here sayingta-da, I still got to keep my
hair.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
No, but this is really very helpful, and I think
a lot of people would find itvery informational and
inspirational too.
Oh good, I hope so.
That would be very meaningfulfor me.
Thank you, Mindy, again foryour absolute sage advice.
I know we could be here forhours, couldn't we?
But to be continued, and Ican't wait to see you soon.
(18:23):
Same here.
To see you soon, Same here.
Next I love this section iscalled Calling All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
If your curls could talk.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
We have a caller from Miami.
Hi, hi, oh, my God, I'm soexcited, lorraine.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I'm so looking forward to your question.
What is your name?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Lisa, you really changed my life.
You did.
I read your book.
I transitioned from dying myhair to going gray and it was
the best thing I've ever done.
So thank you, you changed mylife.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'm so happy to hear that.
That's so great.
And how long have you beennaturally curly?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
My whole life, but I wasn't able to figure out how to
care for my hair until I readboth your books and I'm just a
huge groupie fan.
So thank you again, and you'rea happy curly girl.
Yeah, I tried to blow my hairlike once or twice and it just
wasn't me.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yes, good, it wasn't me at all, so tell us what is
your question, lisa, so.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I use all your products.
I use chamfri, term 7-dermin,with or without hue.
A leave-in lover terms ofendowment, with or without you a
leave-in lover, I likeeverything.
I use your pick, so I do it alland my hair looks totally
amazing when I wash it and I airdry the day.
I do it that night, great.
The next day is good after I'msleeping on it, okay, and I live
(20:04):
in Miami, so there is humidity.
But the third day I have likeit's a little bit straighter, a
little bit more frizzier.
So I'm not sure what I need todo, what I'm missing, what I'm
not.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
If you can help me with that, yeah, so you're
saying it's really your thirdday refresh, right?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, the third day.
I'm like, okay, should I washit?
What should I do?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, maybe refreshing with literally the
conditioner.
So if you get terms andconditions, you put it in your
palm of your hands and then yourun it under the tap so it makes
it into a milky consistency andthen you just squeeze it into
the hair.
Yeah, but do as much as yourhair needs.
Yeah.
Sometimes I might even get thechamfri put it on my hair dry,
(20:51):
put it over the canopy and thenget into the shower, okay.
So when you get into the shower, try not to wet your hair.
Just use the humidity, themoisture from the shower and the
chamfri will settle into yourhair and you'll get a new day, a
new refresh.
So, basically, the cuticles arejust lifting up and that's what
happens when you use watersoluble products.
(21:12):
Your cuticles are just doingwhat they want to do.
They don't want to be sealeddown with silicone.
So because these products aresulfate free and silicone free,
your cuticles are just actinglike a plant, just going towards
the natural water molecules inthe atmosphere and all it needs
is a beautiful conditioner.
So conditioner see your milkyconditioner like water for your
(21:32):
body and you can't give itenough.
And if you have to use more oncertain days, use more.
It's fine.
But because it is water soluble, the atmosphere will evaporate
it a little bit quicker thanproducts that have alcohols in
it and stuff like that.
But your hair becomes healthieras a result of not using those
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Okay, that is very doable and it's really easy for
me to do.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I really do believe.
If I was on a desert island,conditioner and water would be
my thing.
That's all I would want.
That's all I would need.
I take it with me.
I get a little bottle.
I put cooled boiling water, alittle bit of conditioner in it.
It's the end, all or be all.
I'll be somewhere and I'll puta little bit on the frizz and it
will just give it a drink ofwater.
All frizzes is a car waiting tohappen.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Wow, I just love that .
Do you have any follow-upquestions?
No, I mean, that's an amazingtip that you just gave me
especially when I'm traveling.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, and you can put it in a little bottle, take it
with you wherever you go.
And my dear friend David usedto say hydration in his pocket,
yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
That's great.
Well, I just really want tothank you and I so appreciate
talking to you.
Oh well, thank you, lisa.
Thank you Well, thank you, lisa.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Thank you.
Thank you to our listeners andour beautiful guests, mindy
Greenstein and our call-in Lisa.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcasts,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(23:06):
info at curlyworldcom or visitus on Instagram at Curly World
LLC.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorella May
(23:27):
for writing and performing ouroriginal theme music.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
If your girls If your girls could talk.
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys, and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls CouldTalk.
Today we are thrilled to bringback my good friend, mindy
(00:23):
Greenstein.
She is an author, speaker and apsychologist who specializes in
cancer and maturing and hasbeen living with metastatic
breast cancer for many years.
Join us as Mindy shares heruplifting and surprising journey
after being told her medicationneeded to be switched.
If you haven't heard Mindy'sfirst interview yet, be sure to
(00:43):
go back and take a listen.
So welcome back, mindy.
Welcome back to the podcast.
How are you?
How are you feeling?
What has happened since we lastsaw you?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh, my goodness, so much has happened.
Well, I will start by sayingI'm in a good place, that is
what we want to hear.
But I will also say that it'sbeen quite up and down and quite
challenging.
As you recall, when last we metour heroine, she was just
starting a new cancer treatmentand she might or might not lose
(01:12):
her hair and what's going tohappen?
So drumroll, please.
I lost every hair on my body.
This was not the way I wantedit to go and it's been extremely
challenging.
But I'm ending up in a goodplace.
But I've got lots of adventuresto tell you about.
So when you think cancer, a youthink baldness and B you think
(01:34):
death.
Well, I've had cancer now for17 years and I'm pretty sure I'm
still alive, based on all theevidence that I see.
And it wasn't until this yearthat I went bald.
This was actually my first timeand one thing that I realized
when I finally lost all of it,it was very liberating because
(01:57):
for certainly the last sevenyears I've always been waiting
for that shoe to drop, and Iwasn't consciously waiting, it
was just always there.
And it was only once I wastotally bald that I realized
that that one particular stresshad just completely lifted.
I had many other stresses thatreplaced it.
So I'm not saying thank you tocancer, but it was notable that
(02:22):
this fear I had okay.
So the worst thing happened andnow I get to deal.
Can I, can't I?
Well, I can as it turns out, andI feel like it was a road that
has really, really taught me alot, but the most important
thing is a certain kind ofperspective In particular.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Man, I put so much energy into just this hair thing
Can you take us back to thoseearly years right after your
diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
When I was diagnosed 17 years ago, my younger son was
five and I did not know would Iget to see this kid grow up?
And if I didn't, would heremember me when he grew up?
And, as you might expect, itwas a rather upsetting thought.
In two days I'm attending hiscollege graduation.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I cannot wait to see the pictures of that too.
And he's a curly boy too, isn'the?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Not this one.
This one has straight hair.
This one is very preppy looking.
In fact, the older one refersto him as coming from the rich
side of the family because hehas this very preppy look.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I think your son may have curls if he grows his hair.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Oh well you know, I shouldn't speak.
This is something you wouldknow better than.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I I think everybody has curly hair.
Unless I find out otherwise,you would know better than I.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I think everybody has curly hair, unless I find out
otherwise.
So he does have this oneparticular wave, which my
husband refers to as a Gumby,because it goes like of course
it's a podcast, so yourlisteners can't see this, but
there's this huge, almostpompadour-y thing that happens
just when he wakes up in themorning and he doesn't do
anything to it.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, that's a wave to me.
Any bend, even the slightestbend, it's like wow, there's a
possibility.
You must be right about that.
Tell us a little bit more aboutwhat you're doing about your no
hair.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay.
So that has been multipleadventures and, interestingly,
it actually hasn't been thehardest one.
The hardest has been my browsand lashes.
And again, out in podcast land.
You can't see this, butLorraine will attest to the fact
that.
Can you tell I have no brows orlashes.
You look beautiful.
I have to say, lorraine hasbeen such an amazing part of
(04:41):
this adventure.
As I mentioned last time, one ofthe things that gave me
strength was that I knew she wasgoing to help me, and indeed
she did.
In the beginning, every day Iwent a couple of weeks before my
hair started falling, I wouldwear different hats and wear
different scarves and try tofind a look.
My favorite look was what Icalled my mosh pit look, which
(05:02):
lasted for all of two days, andthen too much hair came out and
I needed to find a new one.
This is one of the ways inwhich losing it all was kind of
liberating, but I finallydecided you know what I need,
lorraine to cut my hair reallyshort.
I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have
anything.
So we hair really short.
I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have
anything.
(05:22):
So you made a house call andyou came over At that
haircutting event.
It became really clear when youcut my hair that there's no way
I'm going to be able to keepthis hair at all, because there
were already these huge likewastelands of scalp that were
completely visible throughwhatever hair I had.
But even though I knew wherethis was leading, I just didn't
(05:42):
have it in me to take it all offyet I just wasn't ready.
I didn't even look at wigs atall because I was putting all my
energy into how to make themost of the hair that I've
gotten All this time.
The doctors didn't know, thenurses did not know the hair
stopped falling out, might stayput at some point.
So I had to have faith that Iwas going to keep it and I
(06:06):
didn't, and I think I managed togo all of three days before I
called you and said I think youneed to shave it off for me
today.
And sort of the pièce derésistance was that once I was
totally commando.
My son my preppy comes from therich side of the family.
Son was just amazed at what hedescribed as my unnaturally
(06:29):
symmetric scalp and he keptlooking at my head and rather
than seeing even an ounce oflike horror, which is what I
would have expected.
He was just sort of amazed.
I still got to keep my browsand lashes for a while.
They went the last.
But then came the whole wigadventure and that was somewhat
nightmarish, especially comingfrom the whole curly girl
(06:51):
tradition.
You know, I found normal sizewigs are too big for me and I
have really sensitive skin on myscalp and it was really sort of
a nightmare finding a wig.
Ultimately, I knew I was goingto have to have something custom
made.
And also for me, unlike peoplein the early parts of the whole
cancer thing, if I'm lucky, I'mgoing to be bald for a long time
(07:13):
, because that means my medswill continue working for a long
time.
If I grow my hair back, itmeans that my meds stopped
working.
So, finding the right wig makerwho understands the whole no, I
don't want to be blow dryingand using curling irons and this
is and that's.
No, I don't want to.
But I managed to find afabulous, fabulous guy and he's
(07:36):
terrific.
He's a real artist, artisan andhe really understood the whole.
Yeah, I don't really want tobrush it, although you can't get
away with not brushing a wig atall.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What about shampoo?
You don't shampoo it either, doyou?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
He suggested a tiny bit of baby shampoo, but I'm
thinking I could use a tiny bitof at least Non sulfate yeah, at
least a sulfate free, but very,very, very little.
I hardly have to wash it at alland I start using my fingers,
but at some point I just sayfuck it and.
I have like a wide tooth comb,but then I just say, fuck it
again.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I'm using the brush, and you know whatever, you
probably feel the need to brushand comb because you are using
shampoo.
Even baby shampoo is still adetergent.
It dehydrates and it tanglesthe hair.
You need to treat your wig justlike you treat your own hair.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I can't be completely kosher, but I use your gel, the
leave-in lover, leave-in lover.
Right, I use the leave-in lover.
I actually still use your, notthe shampoo, the chamfri for my
scalp yeah, it's very hydrating.
Yes it's great.
So that's been a whole learningprocess too, because I kept
feeling like there were pointswhere oh, I better not tell
(08:47):
Lorraine I'm using a brush.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Since the hair is not attached to a root system,
there's no blood flow Right,there's no sebum.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And the shampoo still bothers me a little bit because
that kind of raised the cuticleand lifts the cuticles up.
I would still want to use justa very mild cleanser, right,
because you want to preserve andprotect this beautiful wig.
That was very expensive, wasn'tit?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, it was very expensive and I also want it for
a long time, exactly, but it'sdifferent than the usual process
, because in the usual process,you're dealing with your scalp.
In this case, I I'm really I'mdealing with the hair, and it's
human hair, yeah, and it's alittle bit on the coarse side,
so it gets in knots very justjust by moving around, just by
moving around, just by sitting,if I'm leaning against something
(09:31):
.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It's real hair, you're wearing it.
But that's a good sign too.
You know you're not justsedentary, you're not just
sitting still and you're notwearing it like a hat.
You're right, you're notwearing it like a hat.
You're living with it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The last thing that I needed to do to kind of
liberate me was I outed myselfon Facebook.
I was so terrified of peopleseeing my bald head that I
realized this was not a way tolive, because my bald head is me
and it's going to be with mefor a while.
So I took a bald selfie and Iput it on Facebook.
(10:05):
It's beautiful.
I did see that, oh, you did.
And I had a magnificentresponse, by which I mean not
only was everyone nice that Iexpected, they were nice in the
best way.
That just made me feel soconnected to humanity.
And once I did that, I was nolonger terrified.
I was like people are going tosee it.
I came up with a look, my newlook, which I'm not wearing
(10:27):
right now, which I called themiddle-aged biker fashionista
look.
So black t-shirts, jeans, redscarf and my bald head.
So at some point I'll be readyto debut in public.
But I have lots of differentchoices.
For me, the key is I alwaysneed to feel like I have a
choice.
And I needed the wig because Ineeded that to be one of my
(10:50):
choices.
And I have a secret for any ofyour listeners who has a problem
with wigs, and the secret sauceis something called scar tape.
It's a very simple tape.
It's got adhesive on one sideand silicone on the other, very
thin.
You just put it upside down inthe cap so that the silicone is
the part that's touching yourscalp and the itching is gone.
(11:13):
I was having a really hard time.
I was afraid that even thiscustom-made wig I wasn't going
to be able to wear.
That's good, that is good toknow, that made the difference,
and the other thing I thinkthat's important to know and I
think this is true for everyone,not just wig wearers is that
one of the reasons it looksnatural is that it's not perfect
.
It's a little frizzy.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Functional frizz.
It's functional, Functionalright.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, functional frizz , which I like.
Right, it gives me a littlevolume, it looks very natural,
but I do not look like I justcame out of a salon.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It doesn't look like a glassy wig.
They're the ones that I don'tlike.
You know where they're soglassy?
You know it's not real.
They look more like doll hairRight.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
This looks so natural .
One of for me is that I wantedto sort of match my hair, which
was gray and it's very hard tofind long gray hair.
It requires a lot of hair tomake a wig and there's not a lot
of long gray hair available.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
We do a lot of big haircuts and the way I cut it
off, I save the hair, I justplace it beautifully and then I
have people around the worldthat could also.
That's a lot of wig hair thatyou could have, no, but it's a
share.
So it's like oh, my friendMindy, she has very silver,
light, curly hair.
If anyone's cutting their hairoff at any particular time, save
(12:31):
it, send it to us, and it'sonly for cancer or alopecia
nothing else, as hairdressers,we could be on this program now
that would be so helpful to eachother and helping each other.
We have a donation program, butit's set for you individually.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Right, so you have like a particular color and
texture in mind.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, unless you do want to do a play one.
But then you can go to any wigstore and get one, because
sometimes synthetic wigs can befine for a night.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Oh yes, and one thing that I found so fascinating is
I've done this deep dive.
I practically have three PhDsin hair brow and lashes, which I
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I want to know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I do feel like I want to share this information
because it's a very overwhelmingemotionally overwhelming every
single one of these.
I really want this informationto be useful to somebody other
than just me.
One thing that's fascinatingabout the whole synthetic hair
thing is there are a lot ofvideos on how to make your
synthetic hair look more natural, and basically every single
(13:34):
thing they recommend is adifferent way of beating it up.
What makes it look unnatural isthat it looks so perfect, it
looks so shiny.
So you know they take theseshears and they cut it up and
they put stuff on it to dampenthe shine, like the opposite of
what you go to a hairstylistusually to do.
And my favorite thing is what'scalled rooted.
(13:55):
They refer to it as a morenatural looking wig.
The roots are showing, sobasically you look like somebody
who is dyeing their hair buthasn't gotten to the colorist in
time, and so your roots areshowing, and I just love this
notion that well, what makes thewig look natural is doing an
unnatural thing to your hair,because why would you buy a wig
(14:18):
whose roots are showing?
And in fact, it's like thebiggest thing rooted wigs and
they do look great because theyknow how to make the roots show
in exactly the right way.
So it looks interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You know, you've been your own advocate, Mindy, which
is so amazing.
I mean, whenever we see you,you're always so positive and
you're always so inspirational.
But do you have some lonelymoments?
I mean, you must, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
My family and friends would not recognize me in that
description and I am not apositive person in the sense
that often people think ofpositivity.
Quite a downer that way,because I'm very reality based
and when somebody says oh yourhair will grow back and I'll be
like, no, that means my medicinestopped working.
That doesn't mean I'm notpositive.
(15:08):
It's just that we all have adifferent way of being positive
and in fact it is an extremelylonely process.
I've learned to try to not gettoo attached to good news.
When I get a good scan, that'sfabulous, but that's it.
That was that moment and I keepmoving.
But especially when it's cometo the hair thing was a real
crossroads, because that's sortof where your insides meet your
(15:32):
outsides and other peoplerespond to you in a way that
could make you feel worse.
They don't mean to, but theycould in fact be responding bad
I'll put quotes around badly,because they love you and it's
upsetting to them, but the upseton their face reminds you that
you have cancer.
And in fact I feel really good.
And if the look on your face isgoing to remind me that I'm a
(15:54):
sick person, I will feel like asick person.
And one thing that I've had andparticularly now, because I'm so
plugged into social media as away of connecting to the world
and so much of my social mediais full of oh how crappy social
media is, whereas for me it'sactually been kind of a godsend
in terms of keeping me connected.
(16:16):
Now I do stay connected with myfriends physically and see them
, but especially during COVIDthat was really dicey sometimes.
You know, one of the mosthelpful videos for me was a
woman, kind of a model, who hasall these makeup videos showing
how she draws in individualeyebrow hairs.
It's a lonely, difficultprocess and one of the things
(16:38):
that it's done for me and one ofthe reasons that I'm in a good
place, is that all these womenwho put up these videos some men
, fewer men, mostly are women.
A lot of them are women whodon't go out of their house
without makeup on.
They don't go out of theirhouse without their wig on, but
they put themselves on theinterweb full on bald heads so
you can see their alopecia ortheir chemo stuff, so that they
(17:00):
can teach you how to do whatthey've learned to do.
And I'll never meet these women, most likely in real life, but
I feel like a love for them.
I start every day creating whatI consider my own little
artistic masterpiece, and I dopaint, so my face is now my
canvas and I start the dayhaving accomplished something by
(17:23):
creating, you know, brows andlashes that make me feel good.
The reason I start the day offthat way is because it was so
upsetting to see my face in themirror without brows or lashes.
The beanball did not bother menearly as much as the lack of
the brows and lashes, and I dothis one-minute thing.
(17:44):
I get some manner of brow andlash on.
Just that's good enough for me.
I think all of these things arereasons that I'm in a good
place right now, even though I'dmuch rather have none of this
knowledge.
I'd much rather be here sayingta-da, I still got to keep my
hair.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
No, but this is really very helpful, and I think
a lot of people would find itvery informational and
inspirational too.
Oh good, I hope so.
That would be very meaningfulfor me.
Thank you, Mindy, again foryour absolute sage advice.
I know we could be here forhours, couldn't we?
But to be continued, and Ican't wait to see you soon.
(18:23):
Same here.
To see you soon, Same here.
Next I love this section iscalled Calling All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
If your curls could talk.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
We have a caller from Miami.
Hi, hi, oh, my God, I'm soexcited, lorraine.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I'm so looking forward to your question.
What is your name?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Lisa, you really changed my life.
You did.
I read your book.
I transitioned from dying myhair to going gray and it was
the best thing I've ever done.
So thank you, you changed mylife.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'm so happy to hear that.
That's so great.
And how long have you beennaturally curly?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
My whole life, but I wasn't able to figure out how to
care for my hair until I readboth your books and I'm just a
huge groupie fan.
So thank you again, and you'rea happy curly girl.
Yeah, I tried to blow my hairlike once or twice and it just
wasn't me.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yes, good, it wasn't me at all, so tell us what is
your question, lisa, so.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I use all your products.
I use chamfri, term 7-dermin,with or without hue.
A leave-in lover terms ofendowment, with or without you a
leave-in lover, I likeeverything.
I use your pick, so I do it alland my hair looks totally
amazing when I wash it and I airdry the day.
I do it that night, great.
The next day is good after I'msleeping on it, okay, and I live
(20:04):
in Miami, so there is humidity.
But the third day I have likeit's a little bit straighter, a
little bit more frizzier.
So I'm not sure what I need todo, what I'm missing, what I'm
not.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
If you can help me with that, yeah, so you're
saying it's really your thirdday refresh, right?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, the third day.
I'm like, okay, should I washit?
What should I do?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, maybe refreshing with literally the
conditioner.
So if you get terms andconditions, you put it in your
palm of your hands and then yourun it under the tap so it makes
it into a milky consistency andthen you just squeeze it into
the hair.
Yeah, but do as much as yourhair needs.
Yeah.
Sometimes I might even get thechamfri put it on my hair dry,
(20:51):
put it over the canopy and thenget into the shower, okay.
So when you get into the shower, try not to wet your hair.
Just use the humidity, themoisture from the shower and the
chamfri will settle into yourhair and you'll get a new day, a
new refresh.
So, basically, the cuticles arejust lifting up and that's what
happens when you use watersoluble products.
(21:12):
Your cuticles are just doingwhat they want to do.
They don't want to be sealeddown with silicone.
So because these products aresulfate free and silicone free,
your cuticles are just actinglike a plant, just going towards
the natural water molecules inthe atmosphere and all it needs
is a beautiful conditioner.
So conditioner see your milkyconditioner like water for your
(21:32):
body and you can't give itenough.
And if you have to use more oncertain days, use more.
It's fine.
But because it is water soluble, the atmosphere will evaporate
it a little bit quicker thanproducts that have alcohols in
it and stuff like that.
But your hair becomes healthieras a result of not using those
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Okay, that is very doable and it's really easy for
me to do.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I really do believe.
If I was on a desert island,conditioner and water would be
my thing.
That's all I would want.
That's all I would need.
I take it with me.
I get a little bottle.
I put cooled boiling water, alittle bit of conditioner in it.
It's the end, all or be all.
I'll be somewhere and I'll puta little bit on the frizz and it
will just give it a drink ofwater.
All frizzes is a car waiting tohappen.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Wow, I just love that .
Do you have any follow-upquestions?
No, I mean, that's an amazingtip that you just gave me
especially when I'm traveling.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, and you can put it in a little bottle, take it
with you wherever you go.
And my dear friend David usedto say hydration in his pocket,
yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
That's great.
Well, I just really want tothank you and I so appreciate
talking to you.
Oh well, thank you, lisa.
Thank you Well, thank you, lisa.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Thank you.
Thank you to our listeners andour beautiful guests, mindy
Greenstein and our call-in Lisa.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcasts,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(23:06):
info at curlyworldcom or visitus on Instagram at Curly World
LLC.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorella May
(23:27):
for writing and performing ouroriginal theme music.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
If your girls If your girls could talk.
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