December 2, 2024 • 23 mins
Imagine being a teenager in Greece, where a single haircut at 13 dramatically alters the way you perceive yourself. That's what happened to our dear friend Marilena, whose curly hair journey offers an uplifting story of self acceptance, especially after meeting Lorraine, who introduces her to the Curly Girl Method. Marilena’s candid recounting of her story not only speaks to the struggle of feeling “defective” because of her natural hair but also underscores the liberating power of embracing one’s true self.
In our Calling all Curlies segment, Evey asks the question many of us are curious about as we travel through the chapters of our lives. How do we keep the shine of our youth in our hair, without having to use damaging products or a blow dryer?Lorraine shares curl altering tips that people of all hair types will want to know.
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Marilena is the founder of a new cracker company, “Marilena’s,” inspired by her Greek heritage. Made with simple, organic high-quality ingredients, her crackers are pure, guilt-free goodness crafted with love. @marilenascrackers
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Could Talk.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Today we'll be joined by my good friend, marilena.
She has a traumatic hair story,as a lot of curlies do.
Even though it happened whenshe was a little girl in Greece,
it still lingers with her today.
So this is where it getsinteresting.
Why don't we just let Marilenatell her story?
Hi, marilena, thanks for beinghere and welcome to.
(00:41):
If your Curls Could Talk, howlong have we known each other
now, marilena?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Since 1992, 31 years.
It can't be.
It can't be because I'm not 31years old.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I always remember that day you came into Nymph,
new York Master Practitioners ofHair and I think you were
probably still straightening itthen, were you oh?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
my God, did I have that look in my face as, please
help me, like my hair wasscreaming.
Please help me.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So if your curls could talk, what would they say
today, today?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you for introducing us to Lorraine.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Tell us about that haircut that your mom gave you
way back.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh my God.
So I was 13.
It's awkward being 13 just bythe simple fact that you are 13.
But up until then I had hairdown to my waist that was always
, always braided.
I had two braids and I had anickname.
(01:49):
In school I was the braid girl.
I was a tomboy, didn't reallycare.
And then I turned 13 and Istarted caring and I said you
know, I just want a little bitof a change.
What can we do here?
My mom said I know I'll takeyou to my salon and we're going
to get your haircut.
And I said, yes, I would like ahaircut, I would like not to
(02:10):
have to braid my hair every day.
I was in Greece and she saidyeah, we'll go to my salon.
And we go to her salon and theylook at me and they say, yep,
no problem, they take my twobraids and they cut them.
They cut them like I wasbraided, like that chop, chop.
And then they kept cutting andcutting.
And I'm thinking they know whatthey're doing.
(02:31):
I'm just 13.
And I come out of there and Ilooked like a boy with curly
hair and I cried, I think fortwo months straight.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I just could not believe what I looked like.
It was so short I couldn't evenstraighten it.
Nothing to do.
I was like, oh my God, it'seither braids or this Horrible.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
How was your mom with your hair?
Did your mom look at your hairand go oh, marilyn, you have
beautiful hair.
Or what was your relationship?
How did she treat you and yourhair?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Almost as if I was a little defective and she was
trying to help me deal with mydefect.
So she would brush it.
She would brush it also dryEverything that now I know is
just an absolute no-no for curlyhair.
And then her solution for thefirst 13 years was to braid it,
(03:28):
so it just would kind of go away.
You know, instead of justshaving my head, she would just
really have two braids for 13years.
I don't remember a moment thatI didn't have braids.
And then, when I stopped havingbraids after that horrific
event, she would always say youneed, to like, do something with
it, you need to put it up, oryou need to straighten it, or
(03:50):
let me help you straighten it,or put it behind your ears.
Yeah, she didn't see it aspretty, it was just a fact.
So, yeah, that was my firstgreat experience about my curly
hair.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So, yeah, that was my first great experience about my
curly hair.
Yeah, wow, even just youtalking about it, you can still
feel what you went through.
It's so visceral and I don'tthink we ever forget those kind
of experiences, do we?
And with curly hair, when wegrow it, it takes us years and
years to grow it.
It's not like, oh don't worry,I'll grow Our hair is like one
year, two years, three years,four years it's shoulders
(04:30):
probably five years, six years,seven years.
I went without a haircut afteran experience like that Seven
years.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I completely believe you and I don't know if I told
you when you were in betweenyour life choices I just
couldn't trust anybody with myhair.
I went four and a half yearswith no haircut, didn't think
anything of it and I keepthinking about it.
You know I'm a long hair girl,maybe because of that event.
There's just no way I can thinkof myself as a short hair
(04:55):
person.
What you just said how long ittakes for the hair to grow this
hair is like 20 years old.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, first of all, you'd be able to go to the
website to look at Marilena'shair, because it's absolutely
beautiful, and this has all beenbased on keeping it so simple.
Your routine, right?
I mean, you've really lived thesimple CG routine just
conditioner, very littlesulfate-free cleanser, right?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
None, you've lifted it.
I've drunk the lorrainekool-aid all the way, as I was
telling you.
You go to your doctor and youknow nothing about medicine, so
you have to trust your doctoryeah and you say, okay, you say
this, I'm gonna have to do itonce that doctor has gained your
trust.
You gained my trust and we'lltalk about my first visit with
(05:44):
you.
Yes, and I was like okay,lorraine says that have to do it
, there's no question about it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It was difficult for a while, wasn't it At the
beginning?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, when I showed up to your place the first time,
I saw your beautiful curls andyour wild hair and your stiletto
shoes and I was like, oh my God, who is this person?
She's not just a hair cutter.
And then you talk like this andyou feel like you walked into a
psychologist's office andyou're like your hair is the
(06:16):
first defense of your face andI'm like you had me there.
You were very pragmatic and yousaid okay, your hair is fried,
you have like seven layers andyou have curly hair.
That doesn't work.
Your hair can be like mine, yousaid, but it's going to take
like six months to a year to getthere.
You can't ever, ever, ever blowdry it straight.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I was much stricter in those days.
I mean, I still am, but I don'tsay ever, ever, ever anymore.
I just say, you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, you probably say you could do it, but I don't
think that you will like that oryou can't unfry a steak.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Usually that's what I say Fast forward, fast forward.
So when you started your jobwhere you met your beloved
husband, tell us about yourexperience in your world and
where you worked.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So that was right before I came to you, not right
before a few years back.
Another awkward time in one'slife, right?
You graduate from college andyou're looking for a job and you
think you know what you'redoing and then things change and
so I ended up in finance.
I was interviewing at banksBack then, you know, the
(07:34):
headhunters would prep you upand would introduce you.
I also don't have a permanentvisa.
It's like an uphill battle here.
That headhunter was a woman too.
She looked at me and she saidyou know, yeah, you sound very
interesting and you drive andeverything will be fine, but you
need to do two things.
(07:54):
And I'm like, yeah, what do Ineed to do?
And she said you need to buyyourself a string of pearls and
you need to put your hair up.
And I was like, oh, okay, so Ihad to transform myself because
otherwise I couldn't do my job,potential job well.
So you know, it always wasyou're ugly and fix yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Wow, you said you wouldn't be able to do it right
if your curls were out.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, Because I was defective.
I had curly hair.
It was too wild.
It's funny because I ended upgetting a job.
I didn't even know if I wantedto go into banking and that job
that I ended up getting, Iinterviewed with my boss back
then and she was a German womanthat had our curls in red and
that particular day she waswearing a leather mini dress and
(08:46):
she's heading the departmentand I was like, oh wow, there's
hope there's life, yeah, so youwent to work.
After a while I had my hair upin a ponytail, then a bun.
I did buy a string of pearls.
Do you still have them?
No, threw them out, will never,ever wear pearls.
Really.
You know, like with everythingin life, you learn and adversity
(09:10):
is the best thing for one,because one learns from
adversity and it drives you todo better, to learn, to move
onwards.
And you know, like three, fouryears probably later, I said,
okay, I just don't like this.
Look when I look at myself inthe mirror, it's just not me.
And again, early 90s, late 80s,there was no pantsuits in
(09:36):
banking and there was no, so notmy style.
So I said, okay, I have to dosomething about this.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And I had a good friend, natalie, that also has
really good curly and she'sfeatured in Curly Girl the
handbook.
Actually, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And she said that's where I go.
And I was like, okay, I'll tryanything.
And I came to you and you said,yeah, it's feasible, but you
need to have patience.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, it's almost like what you're not going to do
.
You had to go away for a whileand just let it grow.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.
And it was really hard.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And you know.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I always tell you oh, you changed my life.
And it's not like, oh, youchanged my life, you really did.
Because in many ways there wereso many teachings in that I
felt ugly.
For like six months straight ayear I wanted to blow dry my
hair straight.
It looked horrible, it wasfrizzy and everybody doesn't
(10:29):
have to be the same.
Everything.
It's not like a dogma.
This is right and this is wrong.
Even just moving to the states,you know I'm very dark haired
and dark skinned and in Greeceyou need to have straight hair
and blonde hair and it's whatthey don't have here.
(10:50):
I was viewed very differently.
It's funny I'm the same person,just put me in a different
continent and I'm perceiveddifferently.
I don't fall under thetraditional categories.
I'm not African-American, I'mnot Jewish, I'm not Latina, but
I have lots of features thatcould be construed as part of
(11:11):
all these ethnicities.
So, funnily enough, I'm viewedas exotic, which is weird, like
so stupid.
I'm sorry, but because you know, we're 11 million people, you
don't have a lot of Greeks, sothey just don't have a category
for me yet.
But I told you the story aboutmy children.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yes, Marilyn has two beautiful children.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Thank you.
But my children?
I have a 21-year-old son who isvery curly, very red, very
light-skinned green eyes and Ihave an almost 20-year-old
daughter who has almost straightstrawberry blonde, green-eyed
girl.
So I was always the nanny, ofcourse, when they were babies,
(11:54):
and back then Dina DeLuca wasstill there.
There were babies and back thenDina DeLuca was still there.
I remember having a dinnerparty and I went and got like a
big piece of tuna.
I was going to make a tartare,it was raining.
Okay, you know I've lookedbetter.
But I remember going to pay atthe cashier and they looked at
me and they said does your bosshave an account here?
And I didn't realize.
(12:15):
I said, well, she's my boss.
She was sleeping on thestroller and I said she doesn't
have an account here.
Yet Back to my hair.
When I think of my hair, it'sso much more than hair.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yes, you're living proof of keeping it simple,
keeping it natural, just beingreally true to yourself.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I was lucky to have you as my guide.
No, seriously, and it's alsoseeing somebody like you that
believes in what you preach forso many years and lives it.
You haven't changed one bit in31 years.
Well, you've improved now.
You moved from telling me notto blow dry my hair, like a
decade later you said stopwashing it too, just rinse it
(13:02):
with water.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, Marilena does the minimal and her hair is
abundant and gorgeous.
A lot of people don't want tobelieve that they could be the
culprit as to why their hair isin distress and a lot of the
times people will say whattreatment should I put on?
I think the moment we're born,we come out of the womb and we
go straight into a sulfate bath.
They wash us with detergent themoment we're born and then I
(13:26):
think from then on, that's it.
We're in the chemical landscape.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Also, interestingly, you said the other day that FDA
doesn't regulate those products.
How is that possible?
Skin is our biggest organ andwe just constantly feed it
chemicals.
Like people dye their hair,they shampoo it, they condition
it they silicone, they blow frySame with like creams and I
(13:53):
can't believe how resilient weare.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's funny you say that because I was just thinking
about our hair.
So once I cut your hair, itfalls on the floor.
It still contracts and expands,even if it's not attached to
you anymore.
So hair is immortal.
So I went to Egypt a couple ofyears ago and if you see the
hair on the mummies 2,000 yearsold, they look exactly like your
hair Really Intact, 2,000 yearsold.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's in an agroscopic environment, but if that was
taken out of that, it wouldstill contract and expand the
hair.
Back then there was lots ofresins from trees, so a lot of
the hair was mummified too.
Waxes but the thing is whatwe're doing today.
We're offering these kind ofthings for our hair too.
You know, too many waxes, toomany silicones and it's almost
(14:44):
mummifying the hair to the pointthat the hair's not breathing
anymore and it's fine for awhile, but then over time it
starts to erode.
So we don't want mummificationhair.
And in those days they worewigs anyway.
So they wore wigs a lot of thetime, but they were made with
real hair.
Everyone shaved their hairbecause of lice.
I actually think everyone whohas hair can have the most
beautiful hair as long as theylook after it.
Whether it's straight, curly,fractal, wavy, if you can go
(15:05):
with it and nurture what youhave, everyone has the potential
to have their own individuallook.
I believe.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But when you say look after their hair, what do you
exactly mean?
Because you need to clarifythat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
We've been told we're not clean unless we're using
detergent, shampoo, fluffychemicals.
We think that is clean.
That is not clean at all.
It's not only ravaged our hair,because our hair's naturally
dry anyway.
This is like drinking saltwater when you're thirsty,
basically.
So we've been doing that on adaily basis.
It used to be rinse and repeattoo, so at least we're coming
(15:40):
away from rinse and repeat, butwe're not that dirty.
That's another thing.
We're not that dirty at all.
So gentle cleansing with asulfate-free cleanser or
conditioner will definitely washaway any of your impurities,
whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I know we've lost a lot of people that are listening
to us now.
They're like okay, it's just.
I'm just not going there, yep,but I have to tell you.
I have stopped.
I rinse as you say, I wash myhair with water every day pretty
much, and then I putconditioner.
For the last 20 years.
You work out, yes, but my hairI invite anybody it's really yes
(16:16):
, but my hair I invite anybody,it's really really clean?
I don't smell.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You're living proof of the simplicity of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And you know, hydration, hydration, hydration.
I came to New York City in 1987, and New York was very
different than what it is now,and I just said, ah, I'm home,
I'm home.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Marilina, that's what I said too in 1987.
Really, I was just passingthrough and I said I'm home.
I said the exact same thing in1987.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It was just like there was no question that I
would ever be anywhere else butNew York City, here, here.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, thank you so much for coming today, and I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yes, yes, thank you, Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Next I love this section is called Calling All
Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
they want about curly hair.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We have our Curly Girl caller coming in.
And what is your name?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
My name is Evie and I live in the Berkshires in
Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh lovely.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So what is your question today?
So my question today is I hadvery soft, shiny curls, and so I
was always a girl that couldcome out of the shower, crunch
my hair a little bit and air drymy hair.
And in this chapter of my lifeI noticed that if I try to do
that, my hair looks really dryand really the only way to get
(18:03):
it to look shiny is to veryslowly and carefully blow it
straight.
And I was just wondering, likeif you have any recommendations
for either how to wash it or forproduct to get that shine back
in the curls.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
okay, so do you want the truth?
Can you handle the truth, doyou?
Really want to know the truthwell when you were talking about
your shine.
How long ago?
Was that years ago?
Can you give me a roughestimate?
Um?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I would say I really started to lose it like five
years ago but the shiny when youwould just get out the shower.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And it was shiny, was this before you colored your
hair?
Do you color your hair?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I do some highlights about once a year, but I didn't
color my hair for most of mylife until I was over 50.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay.
So color does play a differencein that too.
And the thing is, your hair isnot recuperating after being
blow-fried slowly.
Sometimes a slower blow-fry isprobably more damaging than a
(19:15):
faster blow fry, because it'sslowly simmering and you can't
unfry a steak, you can't unfryhair.
So when you then go to try andbe curly, your hair's so
dehydrated from what you've donebefore.
Our hair is a little bit like abook, but we're reading it
backwards and it has history init.
And the more you treat it withbeautiful products no more
blow-frying, take away sulfates,take away silicones your hair
will come back.
I promise you, the naturalessence of your hair will be
(19:38):
there.
The thing is with shine, withcurly hair, our hair is Cs and
troughs, so we have curves andconcaves and usually the shine
only hits the crest of the curland the concave is a darkness.
Curly girls don't really get ashine in their hair.
Natural shine.
We get it when there's a lighton us and a photograph has been
taken, but in essence our hairis not naturally shiny.
(20:01):
Just because of the undulatingmovements of the curl and the
wave, the light doesn't reflectas much, and that's why
sometimes a lot of curly girlsthat don't love the hair or
haven't started to love the hair.
They think the alternative isblow-frying it straight and
you're only going to get thatshine just for a little bit, and
it's a superficial shine.
The silicone is melded intoyour hair.
It's laminating your hairtemporarily and it is not a
(20:25):
great outcome.
I promise you that your hairwill not thrive.
That's kind of sad to hear, Iknow, but it's not really,
because if you do want the shine, you can have it.
You just don't want to.
You don't want it enough.
Your hair knows what to do.
Your hair knows exactly what todo.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
How long do you think it takes if I stop blow
fronting?
Give me three weeks to start.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
You will see a difference so fast I can't tell
you how forgiving curls can be.
Once you stop dehydrating itwith sulfates, laminating it
with silicones, the hair willstart to regain its own natural
consciousness.
I don't think we realize thatsometimes we are the culprit as
to why our hair is becoming alittle bit more damaged and
(21:10):
dried out.
Got it?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
Stay away from shampoo.
Yeah, three weeks doesn't seemlike a long time.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
No, and just be gentle.
Get in the shower, slow down,connect to your hair.
Don't use any brushes.
I don't know if you use anybrushes or combs, because that
also fuses the hair and stops itfrom looking as shiny as it
could.
Use your fingers.
Your fingers are attached toyou.
You're more connected with yourhair when you're only using
your fingers to detangle, butjust allow your curls to be.
(21:40):
Just slow down.
Start to love them as they are,not as the hair that you want,
as the hair that you really have.
That sounds great.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
And I'm sure there's a deeper message in there
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, our hair is just metaphor.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Okay, take care.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Take care.
Thank you so much for yourquestion, no problem.
Bye.
Thank you to our listeners andthank you so much, maralina and
our call-in, evie.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(22:17):
info at curlyworldcom orvisitors on Instagram at
curlyworldllc.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
(22:42):
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorrella
May for writing and performingour original theme music talk.
If your girls could talk ifyour girls could talk.
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Could Talk.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Today we'll be joined by my good friend, marilena.
She has a traumatic hair story,as a lot of curlies do.
Even though it happened whenshe was a little girl in Greece,
it still lingers with her today.
So this is where it getsinteresting.
Why don't we just let Marilenatell her story?
Hi, marilena, thanks for beinghere and welcome to.
(00:41):
If your Curls Could Talk, howlong have we known each other
now, marilena?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Since 1992, 31 years.
It can't be.
It can't be because I'm not 31years old.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I always remember that day you came into Nymph,
new York Master Practitioners ofHair and I think you were
probably still straightening itthen, were you oh?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
my God, did I have that look in my face as, please
help me, like my hair wasscreaming.
Please help me.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So if your curls could talk, what would they say
today, today?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you for introducing us to Lorraine.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Tell us about that haircut that your mom gave you
way back.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh my God.
So I was 13.
It's awkward being 13 just bythe simple fact that you are 13.
But up until then I had hairdown to my waist that was always
, always braided.
I had two braids and I had anickname.
(01:49):
In school I was the braid girl.
I was a tomboy, didn't reallycare.
And then I turned 13 and Istarted caring and I said you
know, I just want a little bitof a change.
What can we do here?
My mom said I know I'll takeyou to my salon and we're going
to get your haircut.
And I said, yes, I would like ahaircut, I would like not to
(02:10):
have to braid my hair every day.
I was in Greece and she saidyeah, we'll go to my salon.
And we go to her salon and theylook at me and they say, yep,
no problem, they take my twobraids and they cut them.
They cut them like I wasbraided, like that chop, chop.
And then they kept cutting andcutting.
And I'm thinking they know whatthey're doing.
(02:31):
I'm just 13.
And I come out of there and Ilooked like a boy with curly
hair and I cried, I think fortwo months straight.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I just could not believe what I looked like.
It was so short I couldn't evenstraighten it.
Nothing to do.
I was like, oh my God, it'seither braids or this Horrible.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
How was your mom with your hair?
Did your mom look at your hairand go oh, marilyn, you have
beautiful hair.
Or what was your relationship?
How did she treat you and yourhair?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Almost as if I was a little defective and she was
trying to help me deal with mydefect.
So she would brush it.
She would brush it also dryEverything that now I know is
just an absolute no-no for curlyhair.
And then her solution for thefirst 13 years was to braid it,
(03:28):
so it just would kind of go away.
You know, instead of justshaving my head, she would just
really have two braids for 13years.
I don't remember a moment thatI didn't have braids.
And then, when I stopped havingbraids after that horrific
event, she would always say youneed, to like, do something with
it, you need to put it up, oryou need to straighten it, or
(03:50):
let me help you straighten it,or put it behind your ears.
Yeah, she didn't see it aspretty, it was just a fact.
So, yeah, that was my firstgreat experience about my curly
hair.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So, yeah, that was my first great experience about my
curly hair.
Yeah, wow, even just youtalking about it, you can still
feel what you went through.
It's so visceral and I don'tthink we ever forget those kind
of experiences, do we?
And with curly hair, when wegrow it, it takes us years and
years to grow it.
It's not like, oh don't worry,I'll grow Our hair is like one
year, two years, three years,four years it's shoulders
(04:30):
probably five years, six years,seven years.
I went without a haircut afteran experience like that Seven
years.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I completely believe you and I don't know if I told
you when you were in betweenyour life choices I just
couldn't trust anybody with myhair.
I went four and a half yearswith no haircut, didn't think
anything of it and I keepthinking about it.
You know I'm a long hair girl,maybe because of that event.
There's just no way I can thinkof myself as a short hair
(04:55):
person.
What you just said how long ittakes for the hair to grow this
hair is like 20 years old.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, first of all, you'd be able to go to the
website to look at Marilena'shair, because it's absolutely
beautiful, and this has all beenbased on keeping it so simple.
Your routine, right?
I mean, you've really lived thesimple CG routine just
conditioner, very littlesulfate-free cleanser, right?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
None, you've lifted it.
I've drunk the lorrainekool-aid all the way, as I was
telling you.
You go to your doctor and youknow nothing about medicine, so
you have to trust your doctoryeah and you say, okay, you say
this, I'm gonna have to do itonce that doctor has gained your
trust.
You gained my trust and we'lltalk about my first visit with
(05:44):
you.
Yes, and I was like okay,lorraine says that have to do it
, there's no question about it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It was difficult for a while, wasn't it At the
beginning?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, when I showed up to your place the first time,
I saw your beautiful curls andyour wild hair and your stiletto
shoes and I was like, oh my God, who is this person?
She's not just a hair cutter.
And then you talk like this andyou feel like you walked into a
psychologist's office andyou're like your hair is the
(06:16):
first defense of your face andI'm like you had me there.
You were very pragmatic and yousaid okay, your hair is fried,
you have like seven layers andyou have curly hair.
That doesn't work.
Your hair can be like mine, yousaid, but it's going to take
like six months to a year to getthere.
You can't ever, ever, ever blowdry it straight.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I was much stricter in those days.
I mean, I still am, but I don'tsay ever, ever, ever anymore.
I just say, you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
No, you probably say you could do it, but I don't
think that you will like that oryou can't unfry a steak.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Usually that's what I say Fast forward, fast forward.
So when you started your jobwhere you met your beloved
husband, tell us about yourexperience in your world and
where you worked.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So that was right before I came to you, not right
before a few years back.
Another awkward time in one'slife, right?
You graduate from college andyou're looking for a job and you
think you know what you'redoing and then things change and
so I ended up in finance.
I was interviewing at banksBack then, you know, the
(07:34):
headhunters would prep you upand would introduce you.
I also don't have a permanentvisa.
It's like an uphill battle here.
That headhunter was a woman too.
She looked at me and she saidyou know, yeah, you sound very
interesting and you drive andeverything will be fine, but you
need to do two things.
(07:54):
And I'm like, yeah, what do Ineed to do?
And she said you need to buyyourself a string of pearls and
you need to put your hair up.
And I was like, oh, okay, so Ihad to transform myself because
otherwise I couldn't do my job,potential job well.
So you know, it always wasyou're ugly and fix yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Wow, you said you wouldn't be able to do it right
if your curls were out.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, Because I was defective.
I had curly hair.
It was too wild.
It's funny because I ended upgetting a job.
I didn't even know if I wantedto go into banking and that job
that I ended up getting, Iinterviewed with my boss back
then and she was a German womanthat had our curls in red and
that particular day she waswearing a leather mini dress and
(08:46):
she's heading the departmentand I was like, oh wow, there's
hope there's life, yeah, so youwent to work.
After a while I had my hair upin a ponytail, then a bun.
I did buy a string of pearls.
Do you still have them?
No, threw them out, will never,ever wear pearls.
Really.
You know, like with everythingin life, you learn and adversity
(09:10):
is the best thing for one,because one learns from
adversity and it drives you todo better, to learn, to move
onwards.
And you know, like three, fouryears probably later, I said,
okay, I just don't like this.
Look when I look at myself inthe mirror, it's just not me.
And again, early 90s, late 80s,there was no pantsuits in
(09:36):
banking and there was no, so notmy style.
So I said, okay, I have to dosomething about this.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And I had a good friend, natalie, that also has
really good curly and she'sfeatured in Curly Girl the
handbook.
Actually, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And she said that's where I go.
And I was like, okay, I'll tryanything.
And I came to you and you said,yeah, it's feasible, but you
need to have patience.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, it's almost like what you're not going to do
.
You had to go away for a whileand just let it grow.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.
And it was really hard.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And you know.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I always tell you oh, you changed my life.
And it's not like, oh, youchanged my life, you really did.
Because in many ways there wereso many teachings in that I
felt ugly.
For like six months straight ayear I wanted to blow dry my
hair straight.
It looked horrible, it wasfrizzy and everybody doesn't
(10:29):
have to be the same.
Everything.
It's not like a dogma.
This is right and this is wrong.
Even just moving to the states,you know I'm very dark haired
and dark skinned and in Greeceyou need to have straight hair
and blonde hair and it's whatthey don't have here.
(10:50):
I was viewed very differently.
It's funny I'm the same person,just put me in a different
continent and I'm perceiveddifferently.
I don't fall under thetraditional categories.
I'm not African-American, I'mnot Jewish, I'm not Latina, but
I have lots of features thatcould be construed as part of
(11:11):
all these ethnicities.
So, funnily enough, I'm viewedas exotic, which is weird, like
so stupid.
I'm sorry, but because you know, we're 11 million people, you
don't have a lot of Greeks, sothey just don't have a category
for me yet.
But I told you the story aboutmy children.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yes, Marilyn has two beautiful children.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Thank you.
But my children?
I have a 21-year-old son who isvery curly, very red, very
light-skinned green eyes and Ihave an almost 20-year-old
daughter who has almost straightstrawberry blonde, green-eyed
girl.
So I was always the nanny, ofcourse, when they were babies,
(11:54):
and back then Dina DeLuca wasstill there.
There were babies and back thenDina DeLuca was still there.
I remember having a dinnerparty and I went and got like a
big piece of tuna.
I was going to make a tartare,it was raining.
Okay, you know I've lookedbetter.
But I remember going to pay atthe cashier and they looked at
me and they said does your bosshave an account here?
And I didn't realize.
(12:15):
I said, well, she's my boss.
She was sleeping on thestroller and I said she doesn't
have an account here.
Yet Back to my hair.
When I think of my hair, it'sso much more than hair.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yes, you're living proof of keeping it simple,
keeping it natural, just beingreally true to yourself.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I was lucky to have you as my guide.
No, seriously, and it's alsoseeing somebody like you that
believes in what you preach forso many years and lives it.
You haven't changed one bit in31 years.
Well, you've improved now.
You moved from telling me notto blow dry my hair, like a
decade later you said stopwashing it too, just rinse it
(13:02):
with water.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, Marilena does the minimal and her hair is
abundant and gorgeous.
A lot of people don't want tobelieve that they could be the
culprit as to why their hair isin distress and a lot of the
times people will say whattreatment should I put on?
I think the moment we're born,we come out of the womb and we
go straight into a sulfate bath.
They wash us with detergent themoment we're born and then I
(13:26):
think from then on, that's it.
We're in the chemical landscape.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Also, interestingly, you said the other day that FDA
doesn't regulate those products.
How is that possible?
Skin is our biggest organ andwe just constantly feed it
chemicals.
Like people dye their hair,they shampoo it, they condition
it they silicone, they blow frySame with like creams and I
(13:53):
can't believe how resilient weare.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's funny you say that because I was just thinking
about our hair.
So once I cut your hair, itfalls on the floor.
It still contracts and expands,even if it's not attached to
you anymore.
So hair is immortal.
So I went to Egypt a couple ofyears ago and if you see the
hair on the mummies 2,000 yearsold, they look exactly like your
hair Really Intact, 2,000 yearsold.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's in an agroscopic environment, but if that was
taken out of that, it wouldstill contract and expand the
hair.
Back then there was lots ofresins from trees, so a lot of
the hair was mummified too.
Waxes but the thing is whatwe're doing today.
We're offering these kind ofthings for our hair too.
You know, too many waxes, toomany silicones and it's almost
(14:44):
mummifying the hair to the pointthat the hair's not breathing
anymore and it's fine for awhile, but then over time it
starts to erode.
So we don't want mummificationhair.
And in those days they worewigs anyway.
So they wore wigs a lot of thetime, but they were made with
real hair.
Everyone shaved their hairbecause of lice.
I actually think everyone whohas hair can have the most
beautiful hair as long as theylook after it.
Whether it's straight, curly,fractal, wavy, if you can go
(15:05):
with it and nurture what youhave, everyone has the potential
to have their own individuallook.
I believe.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But when you say look after their hair, what do you
exactly mean?
Because you need to clarifythat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
We've been told we're not clean unless we're using
detergent, shampoo, fluffychemicals.
We think that is clean.
That is not clean at all.
It's not only ravaged our hair,because our hair's naturally
dry anyway.
This is like drinking saltwater when you're thirsty,
basically.
So we've been doing that on adaily basis.
It used to be rinse and repeattoo, so at least we're coming
(15:40):
away from rinse and repeat, butwe're not that dirty.
That's another thing.
We're not that dirty at all.
So gentle cleansing with asulfate-free cleanser or
conditioner will definitely washaway any of your impurities,
whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I know we've lost a lot of people that are listening
to us now.
They're like okay, it's just.
I'm just not going there, yep,but I have to tell you.
I have stopped.
I rinse as you say, I wash myhair with water every day pretty
much, and then I putconditioner.
For the last 20 years.
You work out, yes, but my hairI invite anybody it's really yes
(16:16):
, but my hair I invite anybody,it's really really clean?
I don't smell.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You're living proof of the simplicity of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And you know, hydration, hydration, hydration.
I came to New York City in 1987, and New York was very
different than what it is now,and I just said, ah, I'm home,
I'm home.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Marilina, that's what I said too in 1987.
Really, I was just passingthrough and I said I'm home.
I said the exact same thing in1987.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It was just like there was no question that I
would ever be anywhere else butNew York City, here, here.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, thank you so much for coming today, and I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yes, yes, thank you, Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Next I love this section is called Calling All
Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
they want about curly hair.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We have our Curly Girl caller coming in.
And what is your name?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
My name is Evie and I live in the Berkshires in
Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh lovely.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So what is your question today?
So my question today is I hadvery soft, shiny curls, and so I
was always a girl that couldcome out of the shower, crunch
my hair a little bit and air drymy hair.
And in this chapter of my lifeI noticed that if I try to do
that, my hair looks really dryand really the only way to get
(18:03):
it to look shiny is to veryslowly and carefully blow it
straight.
And I was just wondering, likeif you have any recommendations
for either how to wash it or forproduct to get that shine back
in the curls.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
okay, so do you want the truth?
Can you handle the truth, doyou?
Really want to know the truthwell when you were talking about
your shine.
How long ago?
Was that years ago?
Can you give me a roughestimate?
Um?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I would say I really started to lose it like five
years ago but the shiny when youwould just get out the shower.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And it was shiny, was this before you colored your
hair?
Do you color your hair?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I do some highlights about once a year, but I didn't
color my hair for most of mylife until I was over 50.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay.
So color does play a differencein that too.
And the thing is, your hair isnot recuperating after being
blow-fried slowly.
Sometimes a slower blow-fry isprobably more damaging than a
(19:15):
faster blow fry, because it'sslowly simmering and you can't
unfry a steak, you can't unfryhair.
So when you then go to try andbe curly, your hair's so
dehydrated from what you've donebefore.
Our hair is a little bit like abook, but we're reading it
backwards and it has history init.
And the more you treat it withbeautiful products no more
blow-frying, take away sulfates,take away silicones your hair
will come back.
I promise you, the naturalessence of your hair will be
(19:38):
there.
The thing is with shine, withcurly hair, our hair is Cs and
troughs, so we have curves andconcaves and usually the shine
only hits the crest of the curland the concave is a darkness.
Curly girls don't really get ashine in their hair.
Natural shine.
We get it when there's a lighton us and a photograph has been
taken, but in essence our hairis not naturally shiny.
(20:01):
Just because of the undulatingmovements of the curl and the
wave, the light doesn't reflectas much, and that's why
sometimes a lot of curly girlsthat don't love the hair or
haven't started to love the hair.
They think the alternative isblow-frying it straight and
you're only going to get thatshine just for a little bit, and
it's a superficial shine.
The silicone is melded intoyour hair.
It's laminating your hairtemporarily and it is not a
(20:25):
great outcome.
I promise you that your hairwill not thrive.
That's kind of sad to hear, Iknow, but it's not really,
because if you do want the shine, you can have it.
You just don't want to.
You don't want it enough.
Your hair knows what to do.
Your hair knows exactly what todo.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
How long do you think it takes if I stop blow
fronting?
Give me three weeks to start.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
You will see a difference so fast I can't tell
you how forgiving curls can be.
Once you stop dehydrating itwith sulfates, laminating it
with silicones, the hair willstart to regain its own natural
consciousness.
I don't think we realize thatsometimes we are the culprit as
to why our hair is becoming alittle bit more damaged and
(21:10):
dried out.
Got it?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
Stay away from shampoo.
Yeah, three weeks doesn't seemlike a long time.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
No, and just be gentle.
Get in the shower, slow down,connect to your hair.
Don't use any brushes.
I don't know if you use anybrushes or combs, because that
also fuses the hair and stops itfrom looking as shiny as it
could.
Use your fingers.
Your fingers are attached toyou.
You're more connected with yourhair when you're only using
your fingers to detangle, butjust allow your curls to be.
(21:40):
Just slow down.
Start to love them as they are,not as the hair that you want,
as the hair that you really have.
That sounds great.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
And I'm sure there's a deeper message in there
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, our hair is just metaphor.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Okay, take care.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Take care.
Thank you so much for yourquestion, no problem.
Bye.
Thank you to our listeners andthank you so much, maralina and
our call-in, evie.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(22:17):
info at curlyworldcom orvisitors on Instagram at
curlyworldllc.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
(22:42):
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorrella
May for writing and performingour original theme music talk.
If your girls could talk ifyour girls could talk.
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