December 16, 2024 • 29 mins
Have you ever hesitated to step into a salon that didn't feel like it was meant for you? Our guest, Myriam Gilles, knows this feeling all too well. She shares her insightful journey with curly hair and the complex dynamics of "good hair" in the black community, rooted in her Haitian heritage. From her initial reservations about visiting a salon that seemed exclusive to finding a place of acceptance, Myriam's story is a powerful reminder of how deeply intertwined hair is with personal and cultural identity.
In our calling all curls segment, Lorraine offers expert hair care insights. Alongside Lorraine, Poorna Jagannathan, actress and fierce global activist in ending violence against women, shares personal anecdotes about the liberating power of letting curls flourish in their natural state. Whether you're seeking advice on minimalist hair care routines or the benefits of water-soluble products, this episode is packed with practical tips and heartfelt stories.
We express our gratitude to our guests and invite you to join our podcast community, continuing the conversation around the beauty and complexity of natural curls.
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. Author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook; Silver Hair: A Handbook; and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls.
Could Talk.
It's such a pleasure to haveMiriam here today.
(00:23):
On, if your Curls Could Talk.
We often talk about our hair,but what we don't always
recognize is that our hair'shistory goes much deeper than
just our parents' genetics.
Our DNA carries the influenceof countless generations, a
blend of ancestry and evolutionroaming through time and space.
So come along with me as wedive into Miriam's fascinating
(00:44):
hair journey.
Hi, miriam, hi, thanks so muchfor having me, miriam.
It's always good to see you.
So where would you like tostart?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I guess I want to start by saying that I'd walked
by the salon a number of times.
I live in Tribeca so I wouldsee the salon and I noticed the
curl in the window and I thought, huh, I've got curly hair.
Should I go there?
And one of the things aboutbeing a Black woman is are you
(01:12):
going to be welcome in a salonthat seems to cater mainly to
white ladies?
Nice looking white ladies,right, but white ladies
nonetheless.
But as soon as I sat down Ifelt just immediately
comfortable.
You just sort of took my hairin your hands and were talking
to me about it and I just feltat ease.
And let me explain what thatmeans.
It's not some deep spiritualthing.
I've gone to lots of places toget my hair cut in the city and
you can really tell in the firstfive minutes if it's going to
(01:35):
be okay.
If you get somebody who looksat you and they can't even
compute you've got this colorskin but this kind of hair and
they just don't know what to doyou're in trouble.
If they start going straight tothe sink without even talking
about a dry cut, you know you'rein trouble If they're asking
you questions right off the bat.
Where are you from?
What have you put in your hairtoday?
(01:55):
You know you're in trouble and Idon't mean that there's any
racism there.
I just mean that there are alot of people who are just not
trained to deal with this hairbut, in addition to that, have
low cultural competency anddon't know how to communicate
with somebody who looks like meabout their hair.
And so I just knew immediatelythe way you touched it and the
way you asked me about it, andyou know you're just so mellow
(02:18):
and soothing and wonderful.
I told you that my view aboutmy hair, which is it is not
traditional black hair, it'ssort of thinner, it's less kinky
, it's less wiry.
This is a product of rape.
At some point, right Some pointin history, some white man
raped an ancestor of mine andthis sort of passes down through
(02:40):
the generations and in myfamily it's sort of every other
generation gets this beautifulhead of hair, what people in my
family call the good hair.
I'm doing air quotes for thosewho can't see me.
And it's wonderful to have thishair.
It's much easier than lots ofother hair that Black women have
to struggle with.
But there's also this legacy.
(03:00):
There's also this legacy.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Where does your curly story begin?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
So my family is from Haiti, which is an island or
half of an island.
It shares an island with theDominican Republic.
That has had tons of struggles,obviously over the past 50
years, but in history it was aplace where lots of colonialists
landed and it was one of thefirst places to be colonized in
this hemisphere, also the firstplace to be emancipated, to
(03:31):
actually free themselves.
But that just means atremendous amount of violence
and a tremendous amount of powerasserted, and we can imagine
lots of impacts of that history,and so I don't want to make
hair sound like the mostimportant one.
You can't hear.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Well, here in this space, it feels like you know
the hair is one, and it's one ofthose things you know, when
you're a Black woman and youhave what Black women call good
hair, you feel a little bitexcluded from some of the ways
in which Black women buildcommunity.
So I think I told you when Ifirst saw you about my mom who
(04:06):
every Saturday would go to thesalon where she would stay for
hours.
This was her place and thesewere her people, and it was my
aunties and her friends and theywere all speaking very fast,
creole, and there was alwayssomething cooking on a pan in
the back and they were allgetting their hair done and I
could never go because there wasnowhere for me to really sit
(04:30):
and I wasn't getting anythingdone Because your hair wasn't
curly enough it wasn't curlyenough, right, they didn't
really know what to do with myhair not that you needed to do
anything with my hair and so Ijust felt, sort of from an early
age, that it was both awonderful thing I spent quite a
lot less time on my hair andstill do than most Black women I
know, including my mother butalso sort of a sad thing that it
(04:52):
put me apart.
Yeah, you know, these are justremnants of a history of slavery
and subordination that we justcarry with us.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, and you told me that your family talks about
your hair a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
A lot.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Whenever you go to family functions.
Quite an obsession.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of touching of the hair.
Yes to this day.
To this day, and I've got othercousins who have gray eyes and
look, I find myself talkingabout their eyes too.
We notice the things that standout and the things that
actually pull us closer towhites than to our actual family
(05:29):
roots.
And I think the hair is abigger deal.
I mean, I'm married to a whiteguy and that's never been as big
a deal as my hair, yeah, sothat's sort of interesting,
right.
My family loves my husband,gary.
They love Gary's family.
Yeah, he blends in, probablybecause he's just as loud and he
loves my mother's cooking, buthe blends in easily in all
family functions.
But there's always going to bea conversation about Mimi's hair
(05:51):
and whether she's cut it andwhat products she's using and
how lucky she is, and it's justsort of constant.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Since you're a little girl.
Yeah, it's been right there,it's been a thing, yeah, and
your two daughters haveabsolutely most beautiful curls
too don't they?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yes, yes, but they're tighter.
Yeah, and they're growing up, Ithink in a different time right
?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yes, that's true, they're growing up in a
different place.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
They go to school in Brooklyn.
They're the most woke people inthe most woke, always shared so
many products.
Before I met you, all I woulddo is buy products.
We still have a bathroom fullof curly hair products and you
know we would bond over thefrizzy days of summer or the
(06:34):
flat days of winter, or justwhere do you go to get a good
haircut?
So, if anything, I feel likeour hair brought us close, which
is not something that I had asa kid, and your mom had really
tight curly hair too.
Yes, no, my mom has very classicblack hair, kinky, wiry.
She used to chemicallystraighten it when I was a kid.
She'd wash it in the morningand then put on a satin bonnet
(06:57):
to go to the salon and it was sopoofy right when she left and
when she'd come back it wasalways these beautiful poofy
right when she left and whenshe'd come back it was always
these beautiful straight curlsand you know not curls, sort of
curls, a little bit of wave, andit was gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And I never understood how you could get
that to happen over the courseof the day, so she would prep
her hair before going to thesalon.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, she would wash it.
Yeah, she was washed it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So they didn't have a sink probably.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think they did, but I just remember her.
So the salon owner's name wasClaudette, which I remember
really really well, and theyonly did this kind of
straightening.
They weren't doing braids.
Really this was for a certainkind of woman who was going to
work and wanted to lookprofessional.
Did you feel excluded?
I didn't really want the hairthey had to be honest but I
wanted to go hang out with themon Saturdays.
I really did.
I remember feeling like I wasmissing out and then there came
(07:47):
a point where I felt like oh no,this means I'm free of my mom
on Saturdays and I go hang outwith my friends.
But that wasn't until 15 or 16,right.
I remember being young and shewould just leave me for the day
with my dad who was a taxidriver in the city and he didn't
want to be hanging out with me,so he would sometimes drop me
(08:08):
off at his sister's house or hisbrother's house.
So I just felt a littleorphaned on a Saturday and I
would have much rather have beenat the salon.
I've never actually wanted mymom's hair.
I think it is harder these days.
Women seem much morecomfortable with sort of a short
afro, which I think is what Iwould do.
I'm very much into ease.
That's a hard thing to pull offwhen you're a kid.
It was especially hard in the70s.
(08:29):
I don't know.
The black women in my life seemto spend a lot of time thinking
, talking, doing things to theirhair, and I don't spend any
time really thinking doing, andyou travel a lot too, don't you?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, I travel a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I literally wash.
Now I just put in terms andconditions and walk out the door
.
I've never blow, dried orcurled or done anything, so I
have pretty low maintenance hair.
Black hair is not lowmaintenance.
Even low maintenance lookingblack hair is not low
maintenance, and I'm pretty vain.
So I can imagine spending a lotof time on my hair if I had
that hair.
But I think it takes a lot oftime.
(09:01):
There's a learning curve.
Everybody has to learn abouttheir curl and learn about what
works, and I think the learningcurve for Black women is maybe
steeper because there's so muchsocial pressure to look a
certain way.
You know, I grew up watchingCharlie's Angels.
I wanted straight blonde hairthat swished and looked
beautiful.
So you have to get over allthose other things that I'm sure
every other girl experiences.
(09:24):
Yeah, but no, I'm pretty happywith my hair.
What I'm really thrilled aboutis my daughters love their hair.
Yeah, they just love their hair.
I just remember watching SelenaGomez do a Pantene commercial
once and asking my youngerdaughter do you ever feel
jealous not having that straighthair that you know?
I remember she tied the hair ina knot in the commercial.
You know which?
How can you even do that withhair?
(09:45):
And my daughter said no,straight hair is so boring.
And I felt like she reallymeant it and I thought I don't
know if I've done everythingright, but I've infused them
with a love for their hair,which is a good thing.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And it shows.
I mean, I think Selena she'scurly, she's naturally curly
Really.
But that's a commercial, ohyeah.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
You know she's definitely curly.
Imagine the effort it takes todo that.
But she probably has ahairdresser?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yes, of course she does Living there.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah.
So do you have any siblings?
I do no-transcript.
And do you have similar hair?
No, he's got hair just like mydad's, just regular kinky, wiry
hair that he keeps and almosthas always had in a low, low cut
Below sea level.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yes, below sea level right, because you can't see it.
Yeah, did you experience anyanimosity about your hair in
your family?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I think so.
I don't know that I would havebeen able to articulate when I
was younger that that's where itwas coming from, but I do
remember we were all very close,right.
The families hung out all thetime and always had Sunday
dinner together, sort of analternating cast of characters.
Sometimes one uncle couldn'tcome or something like that, but
everybody was together all thetime.
(11:01):
And so I grew up with atremendous cadre of cousins I
mean, haitian families areCatholic, so there's just a lot
of kids and my female cousinswould sometimes pull my hair.
I remember one of my cousins,nadine if she hears this, I
apologize.
She probably doesn't rememberthis, but I remember she was
(11:21):
really mean about my hair.
Look, my mom didn't really knowwhat to do with my hair, so she
would sometimes cut it herself,which I think then always
results in the best haircuts.
I remember having really frizzybangs once.
You know, bangs are not greatfor curly hair people,
especially if you're trying todo the short bangs, because our
hair doesn't stay put.
(11:41):
So I think I had some terriblehaircuts and she would make fun
of me, and I don't know that.
I understood that it was comingfrom a place of jealousy.
I just assumed that it was partof our give and take and all
the cousins made fun of all thecousins about everything.
So I didn't feel hostility.
But I definitely think it wasanother space in which I felt
different.
(12:01):
But you know again, like mostBlack families, nadine the
cousin I was just talking aboutis very light-skinned.
So in my family there's lightskin, there's gray eyes, there's
my kind of hair and there'severybody got a different ration
of these qualities, thesecharacteristics.
So she's very light-skinned,with freckles.
That's another vestige of whatwe were discussing earlier.
(12:23):
So we used to call her Yellafor yellow.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yeah, yella, yeah, yella.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And so, look, we gave and we took.
I don't know that we understoodthat we were playing in the
currency of race right or thecurrency of ancestry, because
that's just not how you thinkwhen you're a kid.
Beautifully put the currency ofrace.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So if your curls could talk, Miriam, what would
they?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
say.
I think they would first saythank you for finding Lorraine,
thank you especially for findingTerms and Conditions.
Really, it's just the bestproduct.
I think my curls might sayevery life is a series of paths
that we take, and so I've hadsome paths with my curls that
weren't always so great cutsthat weren't so great, or people
(13:14):
who weren't so great, or youknow even boyfriends who didn't
love my hair or things like that.
Right, you know, not feelingquite worthy, but I think my
curls feel great now and worthynow.
I think my curls are very happythat my girls love their curls
and that we have that in common,so long as I can get them
(13:35):
appointments at Lorraine's, thatwe can now have the salon
experience that my mom used tohave, which is sort of this
lovely circle of life moment.
Right, my daughter got herhaircut from Lorraine and she
said you know, you just leavethere and you feel as though
you've been touched by an angel,and she does not speak this way
.
I mean, she was like that was awonderful experience and I said
(13:57):
, yes, this is somebody I'mgoing to be with forever.
So I felt very comfortable andI knew I'd sort of found the
place that I'm going to be for along, long time because
Lorraine was who Lorraine wasand because I've had so many
experiences that were quite theopposite of this, I think all of
us have right Until we find theperson.
Can you think back to all thebad haircuts, all the ones where
(14:19):
you sort of the next day you'relike what the heck?
Or people are trying to styleyou and you're like, but I don't
really do style and this hairdoesn't really stay in a style.
Those are all the experiencesthat lead up to the moment where
you say, okay, all I need isthis right, simplicity is best.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Responding to what you have naturally, as opposed
to imposing upon it yes.
That's what I'm trying to teachin classes, and it's the
hardest thing to teach thesimplicity.
Yes, that's what I'm trying toteach in classes, and it's the
hardest thing to teach thesimplicity.
It's the hardest thing to getacross.
Just respond, as opposed toover-impose.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Well, some of it is age.
I'm 51 and you just have toaccept who you are at this age
right, you can't try to shoehornyourself.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You look amazing, though your skin is.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Thank you.
You can't try to shoehornyourself into something else.
I'm never going to look likeCheryl Ladd.
That was the one I loved themost on Charlie's Angels.
So you know you just get tothat place where you know who
you are, mine was.
Sarah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Farrah.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, farrah Forsyth, I knew I could never be Farrah.
I mean those feathers.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Those bangs.
So when you travel, you traveleasy, Like you don't take too
much with you.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
No, now I just take a little sample size of terms and
conditions and it lasts you.
Yeah, it lasts me.
I mean, I'm having a little bitof a problem in my house
because my younger daughter uses, I think, too much of it.
I wouldn't say too much becauseit looks bad, it looks gorgeous
, but we're going through toomany bottles and I need her to
lay off my conditioner.
(15:45):
Right, exactly, but no, it's soeasy, right.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You don't need anything Once you get to know
your own hair, it's autopilotEasier.
Yeah, as a result.
Yeah, thank you.
Next I love this section iscalled Calling All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
If your curls could talk.
(16:17):
Hi, krista, how are you?
It's Lorraine.
Hi.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I'm good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So where do you live?
Speaker 5 (16:22):
I'm in Canada.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Whereabouts Mississauga, Toronto.
So if your curls could talk,Krista, what would they say?
Speaker 5 (16:30):
They're a bit unruly.
You know like and I do havethick hair, I have very thick
hair.
I never know what's the rightproduct or what's the right
method to really get my hair.
So that has always been myissue is what's the right method
?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes.
So you're going to have alovely surprise because Porna,
my friend, is going to be theone who's going to be answering
your question.
She is the star of Never have IEver.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
The actress from Never have I Ever yes.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
She's answering your question.
She's going to be answeringyour question.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Okay, great, because actually I started following you
because I saw something thatshe had posted because I really
admire how her hair looks and Iwas like, wow, like what does
she do?
And then she posted something,and that's how I ended up
following your page.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh, I'm happy to hear that you found me through
Pornas posts.
So the first thing you said,which I loved you said my hair
is a little unruly and whenanybody uses that terminology
which people use that a lot whenit comes to curly hair, I was
reading a book on kids andunruly children and basically
unruly children are craving aconsistent approach.
(17:36):
So if you've got unruly hair, Ifeel that you're not consistent
with it and it's not going tobe consistent back with you.
You have to almost trust in avery simplistic process.
I think 40% is about product,but the rest, the 60%, is really
truly about your approach to itand giving it a chance to do
its thing.
(17:56):
So I heard you said it wasreally thick.
The products weighed it down.
You said it was frizzy.
So there's all these thingsgoing on.
How long does it take for yourhair to get wet, really wet?
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Really wet, oh gosh, I don't know in terms of like
timing.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I do have to stay out of the shower quite a bit,
that's all I need to hear,because what that tells me is
that the products are not watersoluble, so your hair is not
getting wet enough, right?
And do you color your hair byany chance?
No, I don't, right.
So I think some of the productsthat you're using are
silicone-induced and oil-induced, so do you put oils in your
(18:33):
hair too?
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Like once a week, but very, very light, just coconut
oil.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, but once a week , very light is still going into
your hair Because I work behindthe chair and I see what oil
has done to hair and what it didto even my own hair.
It stopped it from receivingthe moisture it needed.
So just once a week.
So whatever you put in yourhair two months ago, it's still
in your hair.
That oil is still embedded intoyour hair.
(18:59):
We've got to start getting theoils out of your hair
immediately.
So just stop that.
I promise you you can put oilon your skin, but it's important
to acknowledge our hair is afiber.
If oil is not coming out ofyour clothes, it's certainly not
coming out of your hair.
Okay.
Okay, it really is true.
It's an inconvenient truth.
A lot of people get reallypissed off when I tell them it's
(19:21):
the oil barrier that isstopping your hair from really
expressing itself in a morenatural, healthy way.
If I can get you off that, Ifeel like we can get somewhere.
We can start allowing truemoisture in your hair.
So conditioners rich inemollients but no silicones.
And the way you can figure thatout is get your product now and
(19:42):
put it in water, and if it'snot mixing well, that means it's
full of silicones and oils.
I promise you our head.
It's an organic fiber.
It does not need syntheticingredients to be cleansed or to
be impacted because it's unruly.
But this is where I feel likeyou just need one or two
beautiful products, as opposedto 10 products that promise you
(20:02):
the world, but you're not seeinga difference in your hair,
because our hair speaks louderthan words, and that's what
porno says too.
But you have to stay with theprocess for a while.
Like, an unruly child needs aconsistent approach, and so does
our hair.
It will be different every day,but it doesn't fall far from
the tree, and if you feel likeit's a little dry or frizzy one
(20:22):
day, then you'll just add moreconditioner the next.
So you'll start to understandwhat it wants.
Like you two will start tobecome best friends.
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
And how often should I wash my hair?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So the thing is because you live with your hair
and when you say wash I don'tknow why, but I have this thing
about wash I always think oflaundry.
It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, butI like to say cleanse.
So when you cleanse, your hair.
Do you use shampoo still?
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Yes, I shampoo twice and then I use a conditioner.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Okay, so do you have any thoughts about that now?
I do that once a week, so youdon't think the shampoo is
making your hair dry.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
It probably is, and you're doing it twice.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
So that's so old school.
Because, do you know, on thebottles they used to say rinse
and repeat, yes.
So okay, krista, trust me withthis.
Just give me a few months withthis.
You've got to get rid of yourshampoo.
I'm sorry, but it's full ofsoapy detergents and hard
cuticles.
Right, it dries us out.
Our hair is already dry and thisdries us out even more, and
(21:29):
it's because we've been toldsince we were kids that we have
to do this.
Once hurts hurts, but twice I'mthinking no wonder you've been
feeling what you've been feeling, and a part of me is slightly
relieved in a weird way, becauseonce I get you off that, you
will start to see your hairreally have its own personality.
So just cleanse with asulfate-free cleanser.
(21:52):
Motion is really what cleansesmore than the product.
We think it's the productthat's cleaning us.
It's actually agitationfreecleanser.
Motion is really what cleansesmore than the product.
We think it's the productthat's cleaning us.
It's actually agitation thatcleanses.
So if you were to clean awindow with Windex and just
spray it and leave it, that'snot going to clean the window.
Your motion is cleaning it.
So you could just use water anda newspaper and it'll be clean.
(22:12):
So we're cleaning your hairwith a gentler substance than a
harsher one.
So did you ever straighten yourhair?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
You know, I just feel like it's more effort to keep
my hair in its natural state,meaning with the waves.
So I tend to just use a curlingwand sometimes and just curl it
and leave it like that for theweek, because I just don't know
how to deal with it.
Naturally, I'm a mom of two aswell, so I don't have time for
like a long hair routine.
You know what I mean.
I need to just be able to comeout the shower, put whatever in
(22:39):
my hair and go.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, so you're seeing.
Washing your hair twice withshampoo using a curly wand is
less time dealing, because eventhe word dealing means that you
don't want to do something.
I think you've got to reallystart to think about your
responsibility and why your hairis the way it is.
This is how.
I am.
I'm tough love.
I'm tough love, but I'm doingit.
(23:01):
So you're the culprit, I haveto say.
Then you're using the productsthat I think.
Whatever you're using, it'swhen you put that hot wand on
your hair embeds it, so it'sbasically laminating the product
in your hair too.
So your hair, I feel, is alittle bit damaged, or a lot
(23:22):
damaged, because I always sayyou can't unfry a steak.
So I think we have to do anintervention of some sort.
I'm giving you an interventionright now.
So so many people say that,krista, oh, it's so much easier
to do the blow fry and do thecurling iron because that's what
you're used to.
You've been in this cycle.
It's really just about the factthat this is what you do, this
(23:44):
is your routine.
So it feels easier than for youto get in the shower, lightly
cleanse your hair, condition it,scrunch it upwards, don't touch
it, and then it driesbeautifully.
Everyone thinks the blowout iseasier, but actually I'll tell
you once you get onto what yourhair really is, you'll be
shocked as to why you hadn'tdone this sooner.
(24:06):
Great, do you have daughters?
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yes, I have two little ones, they're six and
three.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, so you're going to find they're going to watch
mom.
Are mothers good or bad?
You know, in terms of thebeauty department, we follow
what they're doing, yeah that'sa good point.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I mean, like I've pulled out the flat hand before
and they're like mom, what areyou doing to your hair?
You, know and I often think tomyself.
Oh gosh, how am I explainingthis?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know, like, why is mommy straightening her hair
instead of wearing my hair?
Naturally, you know what I mean.
Yeah, do you have any otherquestions?
No, I think that pretty muchcovers it All.
Right, have a beautiful rest ofyour day.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for your time.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
As I mentioned earlier, I've asked my dear
friend Ponna Jaganathan to offerKrista advice as well.
You may know Ponna from Neverhave I Ever, the Night Of Rami
and Big Little Lies.
She is also in the feature filmWolves starring Brad Pitt and
George Clooney.
Porna is a fierce globaladvocate for ending violence
(25:06):
against women.
I'm going to call Porna now.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Hi Porna.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Lorraine, how are you so good to speak with you.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Where are you today?
Where in the world is Porna?
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
LA.
I'm in my home in LA.
Oh, how are you today?
I am wonderful.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
guys doing.
We're great, and thank you somuch for being on.
If your Curls Could Talk, great.
And thank you so much for beingon.
If your Curls Could Talk.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Of course, my absolute pleasure.
You know how much I live foryou, how are your curls today?
I have decided to take the pathof not even putting conditioner
in my hair.
Gorgeous, so just putting thatspray you gave me, which has a
little bit of conditioner in it,but leaving it as natural for
(26:02):
like a completely natural dry aspossible.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Beautiful, so no weight on my hair at all.
Yeah, so the cuticles are justrising to the occasion and just
loving being free, just likeyour plants in your garden.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
That's right, my curls are healthiest at a very
particular length.
Yes, so last week when I gotthat haircut from you, it just
shifted my relationship with myhair, letting it even air dry or
not put any product in it,because the haircut is so
conducive to the curls, justdoing its own thing 100% and
(26:30):
your hair seems to self-organizewhen there's a tiny bit more
length to it and then, when wejust oxygenate it every now and
again, it just lifts it upcompletely.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right, yeah, so we do have a.
We have a question today.
Yeah, we had this reallybeautiful lady.
Her name is Krista and herquestion was what advice can you
give a brown East Indian womansuch as myself when trying to
wear our hair wavy, curly,naturally?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I mean, the best and biggest piece of advice is get a
great haircut, just a fantastichaircut, and you know when
you're in the chair if it'sgoing to go well or not,
depending on if they wash yourhair and wet it first or not.
So the dry cut is just the wayto go.
So make sure that thehairdresser is curly trained.
(27:20):
I'd say treat yourself once ina lifetime and come and see you
in New York.
When I got the right haircut, Istarted wearing my hair curly.
It's that simple.
And the right haircut is notonly the shape, but there's a
very particular length which youlearn over time, where the curl
can survive with very littlefuss.
(27:40):
So that's the ideal length.
Again, when your hair is cut ina particular way and use
minimum products and healthyproducts and your curls do the
talking for you, you get out ofits way.
You know I often say this withscripts, like if you choose a
great script, your job is to getout of its way.
You know I often say this withscripts, like if you choose a
great script, your job is to getout of the way of it.
And so I feel the same wayabout curls it's a great haircut
(28:04):
and then you just let it do itsthing.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I love that, Pauna.
Thank you so much.
So if your curls could talk,what would they actually say to
you today?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Oh, they would just tell me that they are the
biggest visual for who I am orwhat my spirit actually is.
I like to think of myself as afree thinker and a free spirit.
I don't have any need to peopleplease or fit in.
I just have a very particularpoint of view in my life, which
(28:34):
is just be a free spirit as muchas you can and let things come
to you as much as you can.
So I think my hair is a visualrepresentation of that.
That's beautiful, what I longto be.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
All right, my love, I can't wait to see you.
Oh, I love you, miss you somuch.
I miss you too, and I'll seeyou soon.
Thank you, porna.
Goodbye.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Lorraine.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Thank you for listening and thank you to our
guest, miriam, and to ourcalling Krista and my friend
Porna Jaganathan.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(29:20):
info at curlyworldcom or visitus on Instagram at curlyworldllc
.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schuber
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorella May
for writing and performing ouroriginal theme music.
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls.
Could Talk.
It's such a pleasure to haveMiriam here today.
(00:23):
On, if your Curls Could Talk.
We often talk about our hair,but what we don't always
recognize is that our hair'shistory goes much deeper than
just our parents' genetics.
Our DNA carries the influenceof countless generations, a
blend of ancestry and evolutionroaming through time and space.
So come along with me as wedive into Miriam's fascinating
(00:44):
hair journey.
Hi, miriam, hi, thanks so muchfor having me, miriam.
It's always good to see you.
So where would you like tostart?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I guess I want to start by saying that I'd walked
by the salon a number of times.
I live in Tribeca so I wouldsee the salon and I noticed the
curl in the window and I thought, huh, I've got curly hair.
Should I go there?
And one of the things aboutbeing a Black woman is are you
(01:12):
going to be welcome in a salonthat seems to cater mainly to
white ladies?
Nice looking white ladies,right, but white ladies
nonetheless.
But as soon as I sat down Ifelt just immediately
comfortable.
You just sort of took my hairin your hands and were talking
to me about it and I just feltat ease.
And let me explain what thatmeans.
It's not some deep spiritualthing.
I've gone to lots of places toget my hair cut in the city and
you can really tell in the firstfive minutes if it's going to
(01:35):
be okay.
If you get somebody who looksat you and they can't even
compute you've got this colorskin but this kind of hair and
they just don't know what to doyou're in trouble.
If they start going straight tothe sink without even talking
about a dry cut, you know you'rein trouble If they're asking
you questions right off the bat.
Where are you from?
What have you put in your hairtoday?
(01:55):
You know you're in trouble and Idon't mean that there's any
racism there.
I just mean that there are alot of people who are just not
trained to deal with this hairbut, in addition to that, have
low cultural competency anddon't know how to communicate
with somebody who looks like meabout their hair.
And so I just knew immediatelythe way you touched it and the
way you asked me about it, andyou know you're just so mellow
(02:18):
and soothing and wonderful.
I told you that my view aboutmy hair, which is it is not
traditional black hair, it'ssort of thinner, it's less kinky
, it's less wiry.
This is a product of rape.
At some point, right Some pointin history, some white man
raped an ancestor of mine andthis sort of passes down through
(02:40):
the generations and in myfamily it's sort of every other
generation gets this beautifulhead of hair, what people in my
family call the good hair.
I'm doing air quotes for thosewho can't see me.
And it's wonderful to have thishair.
It's much easier than lots ofother hair that Black women have
to struggle with.
But there's also this legacy.
(03:00):
There's also this legacy.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Where does your curly story begin?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
So my family is from Haiti, which is an island or
half of an island.
It shares an island with theDominican Republic.
That has had tons of struggles,obviously over the past 50
years, but in history it was aplace where lots of colonialists
landed and it was one of thefirst places to be colonized in
this hemisphere, also the firstplace to be emancipated, to
(03:31):
actually free themselves.
But that just means atremendous amount of violence
and a tremendous amount of powerasserted, and we can imagine
lots of impacts of that history,and so I don't want to make
hair sound like the mostimportant one.
You can't hear.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Well, here in this space, it feels like you know
the hair is one, and it's one ofthose things you know, when
you're a Black woman and youhave what Black women call good
hair, you feel a little bitexcluded from some of the ways
in which Black women buildcommunity.
So I think I told you when Ifirst saw you about my mom who
(04:06):
every Saturday would go to thesalon where she would stay for
hours.
This was her place and thesewere her people, and it was my
aunties and her friends and theywere all speaking very fast,
creole, and there was alwayssomething cooking on a pan in
the back and they were allgetting their hair done and I
could never go because there wasnowhere for me to really sit
(04:30):
and I wasn't getting anythingdone Because your hair wasn't
curly enough it wasn't curlyenough, right, they didn't
really know what to do with myhair not that you needed to do
anything with my hair and so Ijust felt, sort of from an early
age, that it was both awonderful thing I spent quite a
lot less time on my hair andstill do than most Black women I
know, including my mother butalso sort of a sad thing that it
(04:52):
put me apart.
Yeah, you know, these are justremnants of a history of slavery
and subordination that we justcarry with us.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, and you told me that your family talks about
your hair a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
A lot.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Whenever you go to family functions.
Quite an obsession.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of touching of the hair.
Yes to this day.
To this day, and I've got othercousins who have gray eyes and
look, I find myself talkingabout their eyes too.
We notice the things that standout and the things that
actually pull us closer towhites than to our actual family
(05:29):
roots.
And I think the hair is abigger deal.
I mean, I'm married to a whiteguy and that's never been as big
a deal as my hair, yeah, sothat's sort of interesting,
right.
My family loves my husband,gary.
They love Gary's family.
Yeah, he blends in, probablybecause he's just as loud and he
loves my mother's cooking, buthe blends in easily in all
family functions.
But there's always going to bea conversation about Mimi's hair
(05:51):
and whether she's cut it andwhat products she's using and
how lucky she is, and it's justsort of constant.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Since you're a little girl.
Yeah, it's been right there,it's been a thing, yeah, and
your two daughters haveabsolutely most beautiful curls
too don't they?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yes, yes, but they're tighter.
Yeah, and they're growing up, Ithink in a different time right
?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yes, that's true, they're growing up in a
different place.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
They go to school in Brooklyn.
They're the most woke people inthe most woke, always shared so
many products.
Before I met you, all I woulddo is buy products.
We still have a bathroom fullof curly hair products and you
know we would bond over thefrizzy days of summer or the
(06:34):
flat days of winter, or justwhere do you go to get a good
haircut?
So, if anything, I feel likeour hair brought us close, which
is not something that I had asa kid, and your mom had really
tight curly hair too.
Yes, no, my mom has very classicblack hair, kinky, wiry.
She used to chemicallystraighten it when I was a kid.
She'd wash it in the morningand then put on a satin bonnet
(06:57):
to go to the salon and it was sopoofy right when she left and
when she'd come back it wasalways these beautiful poofy
right when she left and whenshe'd come back it was always
these beautiful straight curlsand you know not curls, sort of
curls, a little bit of wave, andit was gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And I never understood how you could get
that to happen over the courseof the day, so she would prep
her hair before going to thesalon.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, she would wash it.
Yeah, she was washed it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So they didn't have a sink probably.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think they did, but I just remember her.
So the salon owner's name wasClaudette, which I remember
really really well, and theyonly did this kind of
straightening.
They weren't doing braids.
Really this was for a certainkind of woman who was going to
work and wanted to lookprofessional.
Did you feel excluded?
I didn't really want the hairthey had to be honest but I
wanted to go hang out with themon Saturdays.
I really did.
I remember feeling like I wasmissing out and then there came
(07:47):
a point where I felt like oh no,this means I'm free of my mom
on Saturdays and I go hang outwith my friends.
But that wasn't until 15 or 16,right.
I remember being young and shewould just leave me for the day
with my dad who was a taxidriver in the city and he didn't
want to be hanging out with me,so he would sometimes drop me
(08:08):
off at his sister's house or hisbrother's house.
So I just felt a littleorphaned on a Saturday and I
would have much rather have beenat the salon.
I've never actually wanted mymom's hair.
I think it is harder these days.
Women seem much morecomfortable with sort of a short
afro, which I think is what Iwould do.
I'm very much into ease.
That's a hard thing to pull offwhen you're a kid.
It was especially hard in the70s.
(08:29):
I don't know.
The black women in my life seemto spend a lot of time thinking
, talking, doing things to theirhair, and I don't spend any
time really thinking doing, andyou travel a lot too, don't you?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, I travel a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I literally wash.
Now I just put in terms andconditions and walk out the door
.
I've never blow, dried orcurled or done anything, so I
have pretty low maintenance hair.
Black hair is not lowmaintenance.
Even low maintenance lookingblack hair is not low
maintenance, and I'm pretty vain.
So I can imagine spending a lotof time on my hair if I had
that hair.
But I think it takes a lot oftime.
(09:01):
There's a learning curve.
Everybody has to learn abouttheir curl and learn about what
works, and I think the learningcurve for Black women is maybe
steeper because there's so muchsocial pressure to look a
certain way.
You know, I grew up watchingCharlie's Angels.
I wanted straight blonde hairthat swished and looked
beautiful.
So you have to get over allthose other things that I'm sure
every other girl experiences.
(09:24):
Yeah, but no, I'm pretty happywith my hair.
What I'm really thrilled aboutis my daughters love their hair.
Yeah, they just love their hair.
I just remember watching SelenaGomez do a Pantene commercial
once and asking my youngerdaughter do you ever feel
jealous not having that straighthair that you know?
I remember she tied the hair ina knot in the commercial.
You know which?
How can you even do that withhair?
(09:45):
And my daughter said no,straight hair is so boring.
And I felt like she reallymeant it and I thought I don't
know if I've done everythingright, but I've infused them
with a love for their hair,which is a good thing.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And it shows.
I mean, I think Selena she'scurly, she's naturally curly
Really.
But that's a commercial, ohyeah.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
You know she's definitely curly.
Imagine the effort it takes todo that.
But she probably has ahairdresser?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yes, of course she does Living there.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah.
So do you have any siblings?
I do no-transcript.
And do you have similar hair?
No, he's got hair just like mydad's, just regular kinky, wiry
hair that he keeps and almosthas always had in a low, low cut
Below sea level.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yes, below sea level right, because you can't see it.
Yeah, did you experience anyanimosity about your hair in
your family?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I think so.
I don't know that I would havebeen able to articulate when I
was younger that that's where itwas coming from, but I do
remember we were all very close,right.
The families hung out all thetime and always had Sunday
dinner together, sort of analternating cast of characters.
Sometimes one uncle couldn'tcome or something like that, but
everybody was together all thetime.
(11:01):
And so I grew up with atremendous cadre of cousins I
mean, haitian families areCatholic, so there's just a lot
of kids and my female cousinswould sometimes pull my hair.
I remember one of my cousins,nadine if she hears this, I
apologize.
She probably doesn't rememberthis, but I remember she was
(11:21):
really mean about my hair.
Look, my mom didn't really knowwhat to do with my hair, so she
would sometimes cut it herself,which I think then always
results in the best haircuts.
I remember having really frizzybangs once.
You know, bangs are not greatfor curly hair people,
especially if you're trying todo the short bangs, because our
hair doesn't stay put.
(11:41):
So I think I had some terriblehaircuts and she would make fun
of me, and I don't know that.
I understood that it was comingfrom a place of jealousy.
I just assumed that it was partof our give and take and all
the cousins made fun of all thecousins about everything.
So I didn't feel hostility.
But I definitely think it wasanother space in which I felt
different.
(12:01):
But you know again, like mostBlack families, nadine the
cousin I was just talking aboutis very light-skinned.
So in my family there's lightskin, there's gray eyes, there's
my kind of hair and there'severybody got a different ration
of these qualities, thesecharacteristics.
So she's very light-skinned,with freckles.
That's another vestige of whatwe were discussing earlier.
(12:23):
So we used to call her Yellafor yellow.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yeah, yella, yeah, yella.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
And so, look, we gave and we took.
I don't know that we understoodthat we were playing in the
currency of race right or thecurrency of ancestry, because
that's just not how you thinkwhen you're a kid.
Beautifully put the currency ofrace.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So if your curls could talk, Miriam, what would
they?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
say.
I think they would first saythank you for finding Lorraine,
thank you especially for findingTerms and Conditions.
Really, it's just the bestproduct.
I think my curls might sayevery life is a series of paths
that we take, and so I've hadsome paths with my curls that
weren't always so great cutsthat weren't so great, or people
(13:14):
who weren't so great, or youknow even boyfriends who didn't
love my hair or things like that.
Right, you know, not feelingquite worthy, but I think my
curls feel great now and worthynow.
I think my curls are very happythat my girls love their curls
and that we have that in common,so long as I can get them
(13:35):
appointments at Lorraine's, thatwe can now have the salon
experience that my mom used tohave, which is sort of this
lovely circle of life moment.
Right, my daughter got herhaircut from Lorraine and she
said you know, you just leavethere and you feel as though
you've been touched by an angel,and she does not speak this way
.
I mean, she was like that was awonderful experience and I said
(13:57):
, yes, this is somebody I'mgoing to be with forever.
So I felt very comfortable andI knew I'd sort of found the
place that I'm going to be for along, long time because
Lorraine was who Lorraine wasand because I've had so many
experiences that were quite theopposite of this, I think all of
us have right Until we find theperson.
Can you think back to all thebad haircuts, all the ones where
(14:19):
you sort of the next day you'relike what the heck?
Or people are trying to styleyou and you're like, but I don't
really do style and this hairdoesn't really stay in a style.
Those are all the experiencesthat lead up to the moment where
you say, okay, all I need isthis right, simplicity is best.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Responding to what you have naturally, as opposed
to imposing upon it yes.
That's what I'm trying to teachin classes, and it's the
hardest thing to teach thesimplicity.
Yes, that's what I'm trying toteach in classes, and it's the
hardest thing to teach thesimplicity.
It's the hardest thing to getacross.
Just respond, as opposed toover-impose.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Well, some of it is age.
I'm 51 and you just have toaccept who you are at this age
right, you can't try to shoehornyourself.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You look amazing, though your skin is.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Thank you.
You can't try to shoehornyourself into something else.
I'm never going to look likeCheryl Ladd.
That was the one I loved themost on Charlie's Angels.
So you know you just get tothat place where you know who
you are, mine was.
Sarah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Farrah.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, farrah Forsyth, I knew I could never be Farrah.
I mean those feathers.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Those bangs.
So when you travel, you traveleasy, Like you don't take too
much with you.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
No, now I just take a little sample size of terms and
conditions and it lasts you.
Yeah, it lasts me.
I mean, I'm having a little bitof a problem in my house
because my younger daughter uses, I think, too much of it.
I wouldn't say too much becauseit looks bad, it looks gorgeous
, but we're going through toomany bottles and I need her to
lay off my conditioner.
(15:45):
Right, exactly, but no, it's soeasy, right.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You don't need anything Once you get to know
your own hair, it's autopilotEasier.
Yeah, as a result.
Yeah, thank you.
Next I love this section iscalled Calling All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
If your curls could talk.
(16:17):
Hi, krista, how are you?
It's Lorraine.
Hi.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I'm good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So where do you live?
Speaker 5 (16:22):
I'm in Canada.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Whereabouts Mississauga, Toronto.
So if your curls could talk,Krista, what would they say?
Speaker 5 (16:30):
They're a bit unruly.
You know like and I do havethick hair, I have very thick
hair.
I never know what's the rightproduct or what's the right
method to really get my hair.
So that has always been myissue is what's the right method
?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes.
So you're going to have alovely surprise because Porna,
my friend, is going to be theone who's going to be answering
your question.
She is the star of Never have IEver.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
The actress from Never have I Ever yes.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
She's answering your question.
She's going to be answeringyour question.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Okay, great, because actually I started following you
because I saw something thatshe had posted because I really
admire how her hair looks and Iwas like, wow, like what does
she do?
And then she posted something,and that's how I ended up
following your page.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh, I'm happy to hear that you found me through
Pornas posts.
So the first thing you said,which I loved you said my hair
is a little unruly and whenanybody uses that terminology
which people use that a lot whenit comes to curly hair, I was
reading a book on kids andunruly children and basically
unruly children are craving aconsistent approach.
(17:36):
So if you've got unruly hair, Ifeel that you're not consistent
with it and it's not going tobe consistent back with you.
You have to almost trust in avery simplistic process.
I think 40% is about product,but the rest, the 60%, is really
truly about your approach to itand giving it a chance to do
its thing.
(17:56):
So I heard you said it wasreally thick.
The products weighed it down.
You said it was frizzy.
So there's all these thingsgoing on.
How long does it take for yourhair to get wet, really wet?
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Really wet, oh gosh, I don't know in terms of like
timing.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I do have to stay out of the shower quite a bit,
that's all I need to hear,because what that tells me is
that the products are not watersoluble, so your hair is not
getting wet enough, right?
And do you color your hair byany chance?
No, I don't, right.
So I think some of the productsthat you're using are
silicone-induced and oil-induced, so do you put oils in your
(18:33):
hair too?
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Like once a week, but very, very light, just coconut
oil.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, but once a week , very light is still going into
your hair Because I work behindthe chair and I see what oil
has done to hair and what it didto even my own hair.
It stopped it from receivingthe moisture it needed.
So just once a week.
So whatever you put in yourhair two months ago, it's still
in your hair.
That oil is still embedded intoyour hair.
(18:59):
We've got to start getting theoils out of your hair
immediately.
So just stop that.
I promise you you can put oilon your skin, but it's important
to acknowledge our hair is afiber.
If oil is not coming out ofyour clothes, it's certainly not
coming out of your hair.
Okay.
Okay, it really is true.
It's an inconvenient truth.
A lot of people get reallypissed off when I tell them it's
(19:21):
the oil barrier that isstopping your hair from really
expressing itself in a morenatural, healthy way.
If I can get you off that, Ifeel like we can get somewhere.
We can start allowing truemoisture in your hair.
So conditioners rich inemollients but no silicones.
And the way you can figure thatout is get your product now and
(19:42):
put it in water, and if it'snot mixing well, that means it's
full of silicones and oils.
I promise you our head.
It's an organic fiber.
It does not need syntheticingredients to be cleansed or to
be impacted because it's unruly.
But this is where I feel likeyou just need one or two
beautiful products, as opposedto 10 products that promise you
(20:02):
the world, but you're not seeinga difference in your hair,
because our hair speaks louderthan words, and that's what
porno says too.
But you have to stay with theprocess for a while.
Like, an unruly child needs aconsistent approach, and so does
our hair.
It will be different every day,but it doesn't fall far from
the tree, and if you feel likeit's a little dry or frizzy one
(20:22):
day, then you'll just add moreconditioner the next.
So you'll start to understandwhat it wants.
Like you two will start tobecome best friends.
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
And how often should I wash my hair?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So the thing is because you live with your hair
and when you say wash I don'tknow why, but I have this thing
about wash I always think oflaundry.
It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, butI like to say cleanse.
So when you cleanse, your hair.
Do you use shampoo still?
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Yes, I shampoo twice and then I use a conditioner.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Okay, so do you have any thoughts about that now?
I do that once a week, so youdon't think the shampoo is
making your hair dry.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
It probably is, and you're doing it twice.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
So that's so old school.
Because, do you know, on thebottles they used to say rinse
and repeat, yes.
So okay, krista, trust me withthis.
Just give me a few months withthis.
You've got to get rid of yourshampoo.
I'm sorry, but it's full ofsoapy detergents and hard
cuticles.
Right, it dries us out.
Our hair is already dry and thisdries us out even more, and
(21:29):
it's because we've been toldsince we were kids that we have
to do this.
Once hurts hurts, but twice I'mthinking no wonder you've been
feeling what you've been feeling, and a part of me is slightly
relieved in a weird way, becauseonce I get you off that, you
will start to see your hairreally have its own personality.
So just cleanse with asulfate-free cleanser.
(21:52):
Motion is really what cleansesmore than the product.
We think it's the productthat's cleaning us.
It's actually agitationfreecleanser.
Motion is really what cleansesmore than the product.
We think it's the productthat's cleaning us.
It's actually agitation thatcleanses.
So if you were to clean awindow with Windex and just
spray it and leave it, that'snot going to clean the window.
Your motion is cleaning it.
So you could just use water anda newspaper and it'll be clean.
(22:12):
So we're cleaning your hairwith a gentler substance than a
harsher one.
So did you ever straighten yourhair?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
You know, I just feel like it's more effort to keep
my hair in its natural state,meaning with the waves.
So I tend to just use a curlingwand sometimes and just curl it
and leave it like that for theweek, because I just don't know
how to deal with it.
Naturally, I'm a mom of two aswell, so I don't have time for
like a long hair routine.
You know what I mean.
I need to just be able to comeout the shower, put whatever in
(22:39):
my hair and go.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, so you're seeing.
Washing your hair twice withshampoo using a curly wand is
less time dealing, because eventhe word dealing means that you
don't want to do something.
I think you've got to reallystart to think about your
responsibility and why your hairis the way it is.
This is how.
I am.
I'm tough love.
I'm tough love, but I'm doingit.
(23:01):
So you're the culprit, I haveto say.
Then you're using the productsthat I think.
Whatever you're using, it'swhen you put that hot wand on
your hair embeds it, so it'sbasically laminating the product
in your hair too.
So your hair, I feel, is alittle bit damaged, or a lot
(23:22):
damaged, because I always sayyou can't unfry a steak.
So I think we have to do anintervention of some sort.
I'm giving you an interventionright now.
So so many people say that,krista, oh, it's so much easier
to do the blow fry and do thecurling iron because that's what
you're used to.
You've been in this cycle.
It's really just about the factthat this is what you do, this
(23:44):
is your routine.
So it feels easier than for youto get in the shower, lightly
cleanse your hair, condition it,scrunch it upwards, don't touch
it, and then it driesbeautifully.
Everyone thinks the blowout iseasier, but actually I'll tell
you once you get onto what yourhair really is, you'll be
shocked as to why you hadn'tdone this sooner.
(24:06):
Great, do you have daughters?
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yes, I have two little ones, they're six and
three.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, so you're going to find they're going to watch
mom.
Are mothers good or bad?
You know, in terms of thebeauty department, we follow
what they're doing, yeah that'sa good point.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I mean, like I've pulled out the flat hand before
and they're like mom, what areyou doing to your hair?
You, know and I often think tomyself.
Oh gosh, how am I explainingthis?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know, like, why is mommy straightening her hair
instead of wearing my hair?
Naturally, you know what I mean.
Yeah, do you have any otherquestions?
No, I think that pretty muchcovers it All.
Right, have a beautiful rest ofyour day.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for your time.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
As I mentioned earlier, I've asked my dear
friend Ponna Jaganathan to offerKrista advice as well.
You may know Ponna from Neverhave I Ever, the Night Of Rami
and Big Little Lies.
She is also in the feature filmWolves starring Brad Pitt and
George Clooney.
Porna is a fierce globaladvocate for ending violence
(25:06):
against women.
I'm going to call Porna now.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Hi Porna.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Lorraine, how are you so good to speak with you.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Where are you today?
Where in the world is Porna?
I'm in.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
LA.
I'm in my home in LA.
Oh, how are you today?
I am wonderful.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
guys doing.
We're great, and thank you somuch for being on.
If your Curls Could Talk, great.
And thank you so much for beingon.
If your Curls Could Talk.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Of course, my absolute pleasure.
You know how much I live foryou, how are your curls today?
I have decided to take the pathof not even putting conditioner
in my hair.
Gorgeous, so just putting thatspray you gave me, which has a
little bit of conditioner in it,but leaving it as natural for
(26:02):
like a completely natural dry aspossible.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Beautiful, so no weight on my hair at all.
Yeah, so the cuticles are justrising to the occasion and just
loving being free, just likeyour plants in your garden.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
That's right, my curls are healthiest at a very
particular length.
Yes, so last week when I gotthat haircut from you, it just
shifted my relationship with myhair, letting it even air dry or
not put any product in it,because the haircut is so
conducive to the curls, justdoing its own thing 100% and
(26:30):
your hair seems to self-organizewhen there's a tiny bit more
length to it and then, when wejust oxygenate it every now and
again, it just lifts it upcompletely.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right, yeah, so we do have a.
We have a question today.
Yeah, we had this reallybeautiful lady.
Her name is Krista and herquestion was what advice can you
give a brown East Indian womansuch as myself when trying to
wear our hair wavy, curly,naturally?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I mean, the best and biggest piece of advice is get a
great haircut, just a fantastichaircut, and you know when
you're in the chair if it'sgoing to go well or not,
depending on if they wash yourhair and wet it first or not.
So the dry cut is just the wayto go.
So make sure that thehairdresser is curly trained.
(27:20):
I'd say treat yourself once ina lifetime and come and see you
in New York.
When I got the right haircut, Istarted wearing my hair curly.
It's that simple.
And the right haircut is notonly the shape, but there's a
very particular length which youlearn over time, where the curl
can survive with very littlefuss.
(27:40):
So that's the ideal length.
Again, when your hair is cut ina particular way and use
minimum products and healthyproducts and your curls do the
talking for you, you get out ofits way.
You know I often say this withscripts, like if you choose a
great script, your job is to getout of its way.
You know I often say this withscripts, like if you choose a
great script, your job is to getout of the way of it.
And so I feel the same wayabout curls it's a great haircut
(28:04):
and then you just let it do itsthing.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I love that, Pauna.
Thank you so much.
So if your curls could talk,what would they actually say to
you today?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Oh, they would just tell me that they are the
biggest visual for who I am orwhat my spirit actually is.
I like to think of myself as afree thinker and a free spirit.
I don't have any need to peopleplease or fit in.
I just have a very particularpoint of view in my life, which
(28:34):
is just be a free spirit as muchas you can and let things come
to you as much as you can.
So I think my hair is a visualrepresentation of that.
That's beautiful, what I longto be.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
All right, my love, I can't wait to see you.
Oh, I love you, miss you somuch.
I miss you too, and I'll seeyou soon.
Thank you, porna.
Goodbye.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Lorraine.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Thank you for listening and thank you to our
guest, miriam, and to ourcalling Krista and my friend
Porna Jaganathan.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your Curls Could Talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
(29:20):
info at curlyworldcom or visitus on Instagram at curlyworldllc
.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schuber
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to Sorella May
for writing and performing ouroriginal theme music.
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