November 4, 2024 • 24 mins
Mindy Greenstein didn't just embrace her curls; she embraced life itself in a way that many of us strive to do. From discovering the Curly Girl Method to navigating life with cancer, Mindy shares her personal journey of transformation and acceptance. Her story reveals how learning to love her natural waves taught her invaluable lessons about resilience and courage—lessons inspired by her late mother, a Holocaust survivor. Through her candid reflections, Mindy uncovers the profound impact of embracing uncertainty and finding meaning amidst life's adversities.
This episode also features a heartwarming conversation with Chantel, a curly hairdresser from England, whose journey from chemically straightened hair to celebrating her natural curls is a testament to authenticity and self-acceptance. Motivated by her desire to set an example for her daughter, Chantel's story complements Mindy's insights, highlighting the importance of embracing our true selves. Together, their stories of transformation offer listeners a deeper understanding of the beauty in authenticity and the strength in vulnerability.
About the Guest:
Mindy Greenstein is a writer and clinical psychologist specializing in aging and cancer, and she is a cancer survivor herself. She is the author of two books: The House on Crash Corner; Lighter As We Go. Shop her books HERE.
If you’re inclined to donate to the breast cancer research foundation, please use this link: https://www.bcrf.org/
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys, and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls CouldTalk.
Welcome, mindy Greenstein.
(00:22):
She's an author of two booksLighter as we Go and House on
Crash Corner.
She is also a psycho-oncologistand has helped thousands of
people dealing with cancer.
I love this lady a lot becauseshe is the reason why we're
actually doing this podcast.
She said, lorraine, I thinkit's time, I think we should do
(00:43):
it sooner rather than later, andyou're going to find out why as
you listen today.
Hi, mindy.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So if your curls could talk, what would they say?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The first thing that my curls would say is thank you,
lorraine, for helping us feelless alone in the world.
My curls were originally verythirsty and I didn't know it.
So I was getting my hair cut bya very lovely hairstylist, but
he had to cut my hair reallyshort, he said because I am a
(01:16):
wash and wear kind of girl.
And he said that I have toostrong a wave and because of it,
my hair will not do what I wantit to do, and his only choice
was to cut it really short.
I found your book.
The most important part for mewas the introduction, when you
talked about your own personalexperience with your curls and I
realized, oh, my hair does allof those things and I had all of
(01:37):
those bad experiences.
In reading your book andthinking about coaxing my waves
out, I thought, well, this isjust fun, it doesn't matter what
anybody else thinks, I enjoy it.
Then I actually looked for youpersonally and I found you
through your photo shoots,because I'd seen something on
Facebook about you.
(01:57):
Know, if you're growing outyour silver, let us know.
We got this photo shoot comingand I had completely missed the
date.
Oh, that's right.
We met on Silverhead, thehandbook.
We got this photo shoot comingand I had completely missed the
date.
Oh, that's right, we met onSilverhead.
The Handbook, yes, and normalMindy would have just said, oh
well, too bad.
But the current Mindy said youknow what?
(02:21):
I just want Lorraine to knowwhat she did for me.
And so I posted in thatFacebook post and it was, I
think, michelle, your co-author,who said oh, it's not too late,
lorraine would love that Comeand join us on our photo shoot.
So then I embarked on a lovelyfriendship with you and a lovely
hair relationship with you, andI'm in your book.
So that's why my curls wouldsay thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh wow, there's so much more to the story there,
isn't there, Mindy, after that?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, my goodness.
There is One thing I would liketo say about the during part is
that, to my utter, utter shock,anybody who grows out their
gray knows that the growing outpart is the nastiest part.
You have to really get used tolooking a little weird, people
making obnoxious comments, andit just so happened I never got
so many compliments on my hairas I got during the growing out
phase, for whatever reason.
I was lucky it was like anombre thing and young women were
(03:13):
dyeing their hair gray.
I don't know why, but it lookedstylish.
To other people they thought Idid it on purpose, and this has
actually had really, reallyimportant implications for even
deeper parts of my life.
I also have cancer I mention itjust because it's part of the
story, I don't want it to suckthe oxygen out of the
conversation and I also havesomething called lymphedema,
(03:36):
which is a product of mytreatment for my cancer.
And one thing you learn withhair, especially with waves, is
there's just so much you cancontrol in life and there's lots
that you can't, and you learnto live and enjoy despite it.
That's true in cancer too.
This is a much bigger subjecteven than just hair and one of
(03:56):
the really fun things abouttalking to you about it is that
hair leads us everywhere.
So many different subjectsleads us everywhere, so many
different subjects.
Now, in terms of my story, oneof the most meaningful parts was
when I was doing the photoshoots for your book.
I was supposed to come in forthe final one where, like my
hair is all grown out and youreally see the final product,
(04:17):
which is sort of the point ofthe whole exercise, and I
couldn't come because my momdied that morning.
Now, it wasn't a shock.
She was very, very ill for theprevious couple of weeks and it
was a very, very traumaticexperience.
And I should mention my mom hadthis fabulous shock of white
hair.
She was in her 80s and she wasa Holocaust survivor.
(04:39):
She never expected to make itto her 80s, so she had only
recently told me that that shehadn't expected to make it to
her teens, and so when she diedat 81, there was also this
feeling of triumph.
You made it to 81, ma.
But of course I couldn't cometo the photo shoot.
And I should also say my momhad a nickname for me.
It was Yecky Putz, and that wasbecause I'm very straight-laced
(05:02):
and she was totally not.
My skirts were not short enoughfor her, my shirts were not
tight enough for her, and shejust adored that I was doing
these photo shoots for you.
And then I realized that herfuneral was going to be the next
morning and I actually didn'thave anything to do the rest of
the day but mourn her and I justI heard her voice in my head,
(05:26):
you know, saying what's wrongwith you?
Go to the photo shoot, have fun.
And it was like her voice.
It was not a hallucination, butwe're such different people and
I thought I know that's whatshe would want me to do.
So I called you guys and saidis it okay if I actually come
this afternoon?
Called you guys and said is itokay if I actually come this
(05:47):
afternoon?
And you said sure, and it wasjust like I'm diving into a
basket of love.
You know, when I I got there,everyone was so lovely to me,
but I also really felt my momwith me saying oh, my Mindala's
at a photo shoot.
You know, she was like that.
She'd say my Mindala writesbooks and I'm in them.
And she would.
And I didn't always say nicethings, because I'm a real
straight shooter and I alwaystell the truth, which was
(06:10):
extremely irritating to my mom,who, in addition to being a
Holocaust survivor, was also acompulsive gambler, and I wrote
about that.
She was a real and powerfulpresence and in fact, she really
helps me more than my curls do,with the cancer stuff as well.
And what's the name of thatbook?
The book is called the House onCrash Corner and it's really
(06:32):
sort of about how people copewith crisis in their lives.
And it's about my growing up ina very chaotic home.
As you can imagine, I'm alsowhat's called a
psycho-oncologist.
I'm a clinical psychologist whospecializes in cancer and aging
and if you have cancer, youreally learn to appreciate aging
.
And it also interviews with myparents about their Holocaust
(06:54):
experiences.
And I also like to say and it'sfunnier than it sounds, because
it is and my mother was a laughriot- and I've heard that
during COVID you discoveredscience.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Oh yes, you went back to school somehow.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I'd love if kindergarten curriculums would
include hair as the beginning ofscience.
I mean, really little kidscould learn science.
Everybody's got hair and ofcourse, being a cancer patient,
I'm particularly aware of hair.
And even now, as I speak, Ijust started a new treatment and
I have no idea if anything itwill do to my hair.
(07:32):
So that's all science.
And when I think about thatstuff the science part I'm less
scared about the human stuff,because it's really fascinating
and it's also ways of learning.
What are the things we cancontrol in life?
So much hits us that we weren'texpecting COVID, for instance.
You have to deal, and if youwant to live a life, you have to
(07:54):
do that too.
And so the curls and also kindof your approach and why we go
off in all these directions whenI get my haircut, is that
everything's in the curls.
Hair leads us to science.
You know conditioner and how tomake your hair the way you want
it to.
Or psychology, how to live withthe hair you can't have.
(08:15):
Like, I want your hair, I can'thave it.
But, let's love what we have.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right, exactly, let's love and understand and embrace
the hair that we do have.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That we do have, and also without tying up so much of
our identity in it that if, forinstance, you're in cancer
treatment and you lose it,there's so many other parts to
me that I'm still left with, nomatter what happens to my hair.
But I will, by hook or by crook, do whatever I have to to keep
it and also keep it in a waythat makes me feel good about
(08:45):
myself.
But it is good to know that ifI don't get to keep it, my
life's not over.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Absolutely.
You talked about the old Mindy,would say this.
So when did the new Mindyemerge?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think cancer brought out the new Mindy.
Basically, I was diagnosed withbreast cancer almost 17 years
ago.
I thought it was gone, cameback, thought it was gone again,
came back and as of six yearsago, it was metastatic, which
meant it was not going away thistime.
On the positive side, if thereis such a side in cancer, it has
(09:21):
, at least up to now, been slowgrowing, so I might still
actually get a full lifespan outof it.
As my doctor liked to say youknow, my job is to keep you
alive long enough so you getkilled by something else, which,
in case it doesn't sound veryempathic, is kind of the perfect
thing to say.
You know, my job is to keep youalive long enough so you get
killed by something else, which,in case it doesn't sound very
empathic, is kind of the perfectthing to say to me.
I think that one thing thatcancer completely shaped me also
as a psycho-oncologist.
(09:43):
Now I got to like put my moneywhere my mouth was.
I was helping other people dealwith cancer without really
understanding from inside whatit was they were going through,
and one of the ways that I gotthrough that initial shock was
making use of my cancer, makingmeaning of my cancer, and that
in fact that was an area of myresearch and that is one of the
(10:05):
ways people get through canceris by finding kind of a
meaningful narrative to put itin service of.
And that's how I sort of cameto publish my first book,
because my cancer is in there aswell.
So one of the things that Ilearned from my first bouts of
cancer that was a before andafter thing, like I had the
chance of being cured so I couldput all my suffering into a
(10:28):
little compartment in my life,saying I'm going through chemo
now it sucks.
I'm going through surgery nowit sucks, but at some point
it'll all be over and I get mylife back.
So that was the first part of myeducation, but I think I didn't
really get educated until itwas metastatic and I was sort of
in the soup.
There's no before and after.
(10:50):
This is your life and you don'tknow where things are going to
go.
One thing about living in kindof an ageist society is you
forget to appreciate that youknow the Lorraine-ish of older
age might actually be happierthan the Lorraine-ish of younger
(11:12):
age, certainly the Mindy ofolder age has been partially
because I've had to and alsopartially because when you're
young you have crap to deal with.
You don't have a long history oflearning how to deal with crap.
By the time you hit 60, oh man,you've had a lot of crap to
deal with and in fact this issomething I also would talk to
(11:33):
cancer patients about, which isthat cancer may be the worst
thing that's ever happened toyou, but it's not the first
horrible thing that's everhappened to you.
How did you get through thoseother horrible things?
Maybe that can help you alittle, just to learn who you
are, and that's one thing thatcrisis does.
It helps us learn who we are,both for good and ill.
(11:55):
But you know the good is reallygood.
You take real pride and youknow, like when I say that I
love the way my hair looks and Ifeel good about it, 20-year-old
me would have said what avacuous person, 60-year-old me,
says shut up.
20-year-old me I like my hairand it makes me feel good.
What the hell's wrong with that?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, mindy, can I ask you a question?
I can't help when I hear yousay my cancer.
I just want to say could wechange it to the, as opposed to
it being yours, or are you okaywith saying mine?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
That's such an interesting question.
Well, I know that I have.
My reflexive reaction is that Ilike my, I don't like the.
But now I have to backtrack totry to figure out kind of why
that is.
And I guess it's because for meit is part of the fabric of who
I am how I deal with it, andputting the in front of it gives
(12:51):
it almost too much importance.
At the same time that I justsaid, it's part of the fabric of
who I am.
And I have to say, you know, Ihave a little amount of respect
for it.
I mean, look at what I've doneto this thing.
You know, I've tried to cut itout, I've tried to burn it out,
I've tried to poison it out,I've tried to starve it out.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It's still freaking there.
It wants to survive, rightEverything wants to survive.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
My hair is an example .
This is my life.
You don't get to takeeverything away.
I get to pick the parts that Iwill work on.
I'm doing road game now.
I don't know if it'll help meor not.
My doctor doesn't know if it'llhelp me or not, but what the
hell?
I'm throwing everything I canat it and I feel like you know
what?
Okay, I feel like you know what?
Okay, you're a big adversary.
Well, yeah, so am I dude.
(13:33):
Now, I don't always feel thatway.
I have to say.
Sometimes it's got me on myknees, and I feel it's very
important to say that, becausesometimes people talk to me and
they think, wow, I know someonewho's got cancer and they don't
have her attitude.
I'm like, please, I have thebad attitude plenty of the time
too, and that's another reasonto appreciate the good days when
(13:55):
they're good, because the baddays suck.
They suck a lot, but that'spart of the deal, you know, and
that's part of the way lifeworks.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely, and we always talk about the future,
don't we?
What we're going to do, andwe've been talking about this
for a long time, haven't weDoing something like this?
I'm so happy to have spoken toyou today and really had this
conversation.
We have it in this lovely safespace too.
I just love that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I agree, I'm glad we've been talking about it and
I'm glad we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yes, and more to come Next.
I love this section is calledCall in All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
If your curls could talk.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Chantel is that you?
Yes, hello, lorraine, you're inEngland, right?
Yeah, how are you?
I'm good, good, good, so do youhave questions for me?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I do.
Yeah, I recently become like acurly hairdresser so.
I'm quite early in my career.
I mean I'm a huge fan, I'veread all your books, so I was
just wondering just any advicereally you have of just a
hairdresser starting out in theindustry.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And how long has it been so far?
How long have you been workingwith curls?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
So I've done about three years training and then
I've gone self-employed in thelast six months.
How's it going?
It's really good.
Oh, do you know what I justlove?
Curly hair.
I mean mean, I've hated my hairmy my whole life.
I'm 34 now, so till about theage 27 of just hating my hair,
and then obviously having mydaughters, I decided to embrace
(15:40):
wow, my hair for them.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Oh wow, so that was the impetus.
Really you didn't want them togo through what you went through
, kind of thing yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So my daughter bless her.
She's um, she's eight now.
She was about three at the timeand she came home from nursery
and she was like mommy, I don'tlike my hair.
It's not long and yellow and Ithink it's just that.
You know, when you've passed on, you know curly hair to your
daughter but then secretly youhate your own hair and I
remember I was like chemicallyrelaxing my hair and
(16:12):
straightening it and just doinganything to hide the fact that
I've got curly hair.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Wow.
So what is your hair like now?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
So it's all it's all natural.
I've got really textured type 3, really curly, curly hair.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So what is type 3 to you?
Because I don't use thatlanguage, because I just feel
like our curls are so organicand botanical that when I hear
type three it just doesn'tresonate with me.
How would you organicallydescribe your curls?
Are they spiral, fractal?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Honestly, do you know what I think?
I have a mixture of every typeof curl somewhere on my head.
I probably have more, say,spiral corkscrew curls than any
curls.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So you're multi-textural.
That to me, is beyond typethree.
And what was your hair before?
So it was just straighteneddown to.
It was like a straight jacketreally.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Pretty much, yeah, and I'm also mixed race as well
and I think I would put so muchemphasis on my hair and I was
almost sort of living for myhair because I wouldn't so much
emphasis on my hair and and Iwas almost sort of living for my
hair because I wouldn't want togo, like swimming no, I hated
going swimming think, oh no, Ican't do this because my hair's
gonna go curly.
I don't want this.
And yeah, it would just sort ofdictate what I did in life.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's exhausting, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
it was exhausting.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
When you met your partner, your beautiful partners
, were you curly.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
No, I was sort of stray.
I was also getting, becauseobviously the damage is then
like a vicious circle.
So I'm then relaxing my hairevery six weeks.
I was then breaking off, so I'mthen getting extensions and
then it's just the cycle.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Wow.
So that one day it was whenyour daughter came home and said
I don't like my hair, and yousaid that's it, we're done, I'm
done, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yes, I remember, and I think at the time it wasn't
straight away.
So I remember looking we hadlike a mirror and I remember
thinking to myself how can Itell my daughter her hair's
beautiful which it is whensecretly I hate my hair, I'm
straightening the life out of it?
And I just remember feeling sobad that that night I took out
my extensions, really likeliterally.
(18:19):
I thought, all right, all thesebeautiful curls are going to
come popping out.
But it didn't.
It just was like two inches ofcurly hair and then straight
ends how were the extensionsattached?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
were they sewn in or were they glued in?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
no, they were sewn in .
So I had cornrows, okay, andthen they were sewn in so I
literally just unraveled themnaively.
And then that's actually how Ifound your first book, the curly
girl handbook, because I had noidea.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So did you go online?
Did somebody recommend it orwere you just searching?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I was just searching.
I then found Facebook groups, Ithen found your book and then I
was like looking online aboutit, yeah, and it was just this
whole world.
I was like I didn't know any ofthis, but then everything sort
of like made sense.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So what type of work did you do before you became a
hairdresser?
Or did you always know secretlyyou wanted to become a
hairdresser?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Originally I was into care work and then I had my
children.
You know I loved being a mumand then I was waiting to my
youngest daughter.
I've got an even youngerdaughter, so she's six now.
So I waited for her to be olderand once I sort of fell back in
love with my curly hair.
I didn't want women to gothrough what I went through, so
(19:33):
that's what sort of wanted me to.
Then you know what I want tohelp other women and children
and anyone just love their love,their curls, beautiful.
One question yes, clients thatare just sort of starting out
and their hair's not sort oflooking you know how they
thought it would after a certainamount of time.
What's that one bit of likeencouragement that you could
give me to?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
give to them.
Well, a lot of the times when Ireally had this moment with one
of my clients, you know, I toldher a lot.
I said, yeah, do this.
And then, when she would comein, I'm not a good enough
teacher if your hair still lookslike this.
So I had to go to the backwashand show me.
I said, show me what you do.
And that's when I realized ithas to be broken down to a fine
(20:13):
detail and that's why in thebook we have girls in the shower
and it needed to be broken downbecause she wasn't cleansing
her scalp properly, she wasn'tdetangling properly.
So it was that aha moment thatI needed to go deeper.
I needed her to show me whatshe wasn't doing or what she was
doing.
So you've also got to breakdown what products they're using
(20:34):
, because you can be giving themthe best advice, but they might
be going home and usinghorrible, gummy, smelly,
silicone-induced oily productsand nothing's going to survive
or look good with that.
So you have to ask them okay,what are you using?
Tell them to go home, put it towater.
So, whatever they're using, putit in some water.
If it doesn't mix well and turnmilky immediately, it's not
(20:58):
water soluble.
If it looks like a lava lamp,then it's not good for the hair.
So sometimes you can be givingthem the best advice.
The curly girl method is not aproduct.
It is a method of some sort,but it's very simple.
But a lot of the times peoplegive up when they're not using
the right products.
I'm sorry to say that, but it'strue.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think it's just truly education.
Chantel, sometimes you have togive analogies as well.
I'll always give an analogy asto why, like, oh, my hair's so
unruly.
Well, what do unruly childrenneed?
Unruly children need aconsistent approach.
Give your hair the consistencyit needs.
Just give it consistency andstay with the process and trust
(21:37):
it.
Trust our hair knows what to doall by itself.
We're too young.
You're too young to like yousaid your hair was dying, that
you had to put somebody else'shair in your hair.
Yeah, but nobody wants to lookat the truth.
When you actually give them thetruth, they're not happy with
it until they see the hair onthe floor and then finally it's
like okay if you can be ashonest as you can.
(21:58):
When I first started out, I hadpeople walk out.
I had people be mad at me justfor the things that I said, not
because I cut their hair.
It was more like being truthful.
But I've seen them come backnine years later, ready because
no one's going to love your hairas much as I do, or no one's
going to be, as honest as muchas I am.
So just stay with it, becausethe hair has history before they
(22:19):
come to you.
You have to remember thatYou're meeting someone for the
first time.
They're probably 30, 40, 50 or60 and you have to understand
this is a process.
It may take a few weeks, a fewmonths for your hair to really
be beautiful.
Do not rush it.
You don't need to use shampooto get rid of all your products.
Just let it dissipate.
It will eventually come out.
Don't embed it with detergents.
(22:40):
So if your curls could talk,Chantal, what would your curls
say today?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I'm happy and free and content.
Maybe that's three words.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I think they'd probably say they're content oh
no, but that's beautiful, thatyour curls can have three words,
because you have threedifferent over three different
types of curls on your head so,and do you have any other
questions, chantel?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
no, I think you've answered everything.
Oh, I just can't believe I'mspeaking to you.
I'm a, you know.
I just think you're amazing andwhat you've done is a real
credit to the world.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You know it's so lovely to talk to you and I know
that I'm going to meet you oneday.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I just know it thank you so much, lorraine.
And yeah, you're, you're areally nice person, and I can't
wait to meet you one day.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Me too.
I'm giving you a big curly hug.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yes, lovely, all right, thank you so much.
Take care um you take care bye,bye.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Thank you to our guest mindy, and our calling
chantelle, and thank you so muchto our listeners for curling in
.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your curls could talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
info at curlyworldcom orvisitors on Instagram at
(23:54):
curlyworldllc.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to surrella
may for writing and performingour original theme music if your
(24:32):
girls could talk.
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly
Girl Method.
Welcome to If your Curls CouldTalk.
Join us as we talk to our veryspecial guests sharing their
curly hair journeys, and takequestions from you, our
listeners.
This is If your Curls CouldTalk.
Welcome, mindy Greenstein.
(00:22):
She's an author of two booksLighter as we Go and House on
Crash Corner.
She is also a psycho-oncologistand has helped thousands of
people dealing with cancer.
I love this lady a lot becauseshe is the reason why we're
actually doing this podcast.
She said, lorraine, I thinkit's time, I think we should do
(00:43):
it sooner rather than later, andyou're going to find out why as
you listen today.
Hi, mindy.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So if your curls could talk, what would they say?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The first thing that my curls would say is thank you,
lorraine, for helping us feelless alone in the world.
My curls were originally verythirsty and I didn't know it.
So I was getting my hair cut bya very lovely hairstylist, but
he had to cut my hair reallyshort, he said because I am a
(01:16):
wash and wear kind of girl.
And he said that I have toostrong a wave and because of it,
my hair will not do what I wantit to do, and his only choice
was to cut it really short.
I found your book.
The most important part for mewas the introduction, when you
talked about your own personalexperience with your curls and I
realized, oh, my hair does allof those things and I had all of
(01:37):
those bad experiences.
In reading your book andthinking about coaxing my waves
out, I thought, well, this isjust fun, it doesn't matter what
anybody else thinks, I enjoy it.
Then I actually looked for youpersonally and I found you
through your photo shoots,because I'd seen something on
Facebook about you.
(01:57):
Know, if you're growing outyour silver, let us know.
We got this photo shoot comingand I had completely missed the
date.
Oh, that's right.
We met on Silverhead, thehandbook.
We got this photo shoot comingand I had completely missed the
date.
Oh, that's right, we met onSilverhead.
The Handbook, yes, and normalMindy would have just said, oh
well, too bad.
But the current Mindy said youknow what?
(02:21):
I just want Lorraine to knowwhat she did for me.
And so I posted in thatFacebook post and it was, I
think, michelle, your co-author,who said oh, it's not too late,
lorraine would love that Comeand join us on our photo shoot.
So then I embarked on a lovelyfriendship with you and a lovely
hair relationship with you, andI'm in your book.
So that's why my curls wouldsay thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh wow, there's so much more to the story there,
isn't there, Mindy, after that?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, my goodness.
There is One thing I would liketo say about the during part is
that, to my utter, utter shock,anybody who grows out their
gray knows that the growing outpart is the nastiest part.
You have to really get used tolooking a little weird, people
making obnoxious comments, andit just so happened I never got
so many compliments on my hairas I got during the growing out
phase, for whatever reason.
I was lucky it was like anombre thing and young women were
(03:13):
dyeing their hair gray.
I don't know why, but it lookedstylish.
To other people they thought Idid it on purpose, and this has
actually had really, reallyimportant implications for even
deeper parts of my life.
I also have cancer I mention itjust because it's part of the
story, I don't want it to suckthe oxygen out of the
conversation and I also havesomething called lymphedema,
(03:36):
which is a product of mytreatment for my cancer.
And one thing you learn withhair, especially with waves, is
there's just so much you cancontrol in life and there's lots
that you can't, and you learnto live and enjoy despite it.
That's true in cancer too.
This is a much bigger subjecteven than just hair and one of
(03:56):
the really fun things abouttalking to you about it is that
hair leads us everywhere.
So many different subjectsleads us everywhere, so many
different subjects.
Now, in terms of my story, oneof the most meaningful parts was
when I was doing the photoshoots for your book.
I was supposed to come in forthe final one where, like my
hair is all grown out and youreally see the final product,
(04:17):
which is sort of the point ofthe whole exercise, and I
couldn't come because my momdied that morning.
Now, it wasn't a shock.
She was very, very ill for theprevious couple of weeks and it
was a very, very traumaticexperience.
And I should mention my mom hadthis fabulous shock of white
hair.
She was in her 80s and she wasa Holocaust survivor.
(04:39):
She never expected to make itto her 80s, so she had only
recently told me that that shehadn't expected to make it to
her teens, and so when she diedat 81, there was also this
feeling of triumph.
You made it to 81, ma.
But of course I couldn't cometo the photo shoot.
And I should also say my momhad a nickname for me.
It was Yecky Putz, and that wasbecause I'm very straight-laced
(05:02):
and she was totally not.
My skirts were not short enoughfor her, my shirts were not
tight enough for her, and shejust adored that I was doing
these photo shoots for you.
And then I realized that herfuneral was going to be the next
morning and I actually didn'thave anything to do the rest of
the day but mourn her and I justI heard her voice in my head,
(05:26):
you know, saying what's wrongwith you?
Go to the photo shoot, have fun.
And it was like her voice.
It was not a hallucination, butwe're such different people and
I thought I know that's whatshe would want me to do.
So I called you guys and saidis it okay if I actually come
this afternoon?
Called you guys and said is itokay if I actually come this
(05:47):
afternoon?
And you said sure, and it wasjust like I'm diving into a
basket of love.
You know, when I I got there,everyone was so lovely to me,
but I also really felt my momwith me saying oh, my Mindala's
at a photo shoot.
You know, she was like that.
She'd say my Mindala writesbooks and I'm in them.
And she would.
And I didn't always say nicethings, because I'm a real
straight shooter and I alwaystell the truth, which was
(06:10):
extremely irritating to my mom,who, in addition to being a
Holocaust survivor, was also acompulsive gambler, and I wrote
about that.
She was a real and powerfulpresence and in fact, she really
helps me more than my curls do,with the cancer stuff as well.
And what's the name of thatbook?
The book is called the House onCrash Corner and it's really
(06:32):
sort of about how people copewith crisis in their lives.
And it's about my growing up ina very chaotic home.
As you can imagine, I'm alsowhat's called a
psycho-oncologist.
I'm a clinical psychologist whospecializes in cancer and aging
and if you have cancer, youreally learn to appreciate aging
.
And it also interviews with myparents about their Holocaust
(06:54):
experiences.
And I also like to say and it'sfunnier than it sounds, because
it is and my mother was a laughriot- and I've heard that
during COVID you discoveredscience.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Oh yes, you went back to school somehow.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I'd love if kindergarten curriculums would
include hair as the beginning ofscience.
I mean, really little kidscould learn science.
Everybody's got hair and ofcourse, being a cancer patient,
I'm particularly aware of hair.
And even now, as I speak, Ijust started a new treatment and
I have no idea if anything itwill do to my hair.
(07:32):
So that's all science.
And when I think about thatstuff the science part I'm less
scared about the human stuff,because it's really fascinating
and it's also ways of learning.
What are the things we cancontrol in life?
So much hits us that we weren'texpecting COVID, for instance.
You have to deal, and if youwant to live a life, you have to
(07:54):
do that too.
And so the curls and also kindof your approach and why we go
off in all these directions whenI get my haircut, is that
everything's in the curls.
Hair leads us to science.
You know conditioner and how tomake your hair the way you want
it to.
Or psychology, how to live withthe hair you can't have.
(08:15):
Like, I want your hair, I can'thave it.
But, let's love what we have.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right, exactly, let's love and understand and embrace
the hair that we do have.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That we do have, and also without tying up so much of
our identity in it that if, forinstance, you're in cancer
treatment and you lose it,there's so many other parts to
me that I'm still left with, nomatter what happens to my hair.
But I will, by hook or by crook, do whatever I have to to keep
it and also keep it in a waythat makes me feel good about
(08:45):
myself.
But it is good to know that ifI don't get to keep it, my
life's not over.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Absolutely.
You talked about the old Mindy,would say this.
So when did the new Mindyemerge?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think cancer brought out the new Mindy.
Basically, I was diagnosed withbreast cancer almost 17 years
ago.
I thought it was gone, cameback, thought it was gone again,
came back and as of six yearsago, it was metastatic, which
meant it was not going away thistime.
On the positive side, if thereis such a side in cancer, it has
(09:21):
, at least up to now, been slowgrowing, so I might still
actually get a full lifespan outof it.
As my doctor liked to say youknow, my job is to keep you
alive long enough so you getkilled by something else, which,
in case it doesn't sound veryempathic, is kind of the perfect
thing to say.
You know, my job is to keep youalive long enough so you get
killed by something else, which,in case it doesn't sound very
empathic, is kind of the perfectthing to say to me.
I think that one thing thatcancer completely shaped me also
as a psycho-oncologist.
(09:43):
Now I got to like put my moneywhere my mouth was.
I was helping other people dealwith cancer without really
understanding from inside whatit was they were going through,
and one of the ways that I gotthrough that initial shock was
making use of my cancer, makingmeaning of my cancer, and that
in fact that was an area of myresearch and that is one of the
(10:05):
ways people get through canceris by finding kind of a
meaningful narrative to put itin service of.
And that's how I sort of cameto publish my first book,
because my cancer is in there aswell.
So one of the things that Ilearned from my first bouts of
cancer that was a before andafter thing, like I had the
chance of being cured so I couldput all my suffering into a
(10:28):
little compartment in my life,saying I'm going through chemo
now it sucks.
I'm going through surgery nowit sucks, but at some point
it'll all be over and I get mylife back.
So that was the first part of myeducation, but I think I didn't
really get educated until itwas metastatic and I was sort of
in the soup.
There's no before and after.
(10:50):
This is your life and you don'tknow where things are going to
go.
One thing about living in kindof an ageist society is you
forget to appreciate that youknow the Lorraine-ish of older
age might actually be happierthan the Lorraine-ish of younger
(11:12):
age, certainly the Mindy ofolder age has been partially
because I've had to and alsopartially because when you're
young you have crap to deal with.
You don't have a long history oflearning how to deal with crap.
By the time you hit 60, oh man,you've had a lot of crap to
deal with and in fact this issomething I also would talk to
(11:33):
cancer patients about, which isthat cancer may be the worst
thing that's ever happened toyou, but it's not the first
horrible thing that's everhappened to you.
How did you get through thoseother horrible things?
Maybe that can help you alittle, just to learn who you
are, and that's one thing thatcrisis does.
It helps us learn who we are,both for good and ill.
(11:55):
But you know the good is reallygood.
You take real pride and youknow, like when I say that I
love the way my hair looks and Ifeel good about it, 20-year-old
me would have said what avacuous person, 60-year-old me,
says shut up.
20-year-old me I like my hairand it makes me feel good.
What the hell's wrong with that?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, mindy, can I ask you a question?
I can't help when I hear yousay my cancer.
I just want to say could wechange it to the, as opposed to
it being yours, or are you okaywith saying mine?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
That's such an interesting question.
Well, I know that I have.
My reflexive reaction is that Ilike my, I don't like the.
But now I have to backtrack totry to figure out kind of why
that is.
And I guess it's because for meit is part of the fabric of who
I am how I deal with it, andputting the in front of it gives
(12:51):
it almost too much importance.
At the same time that I justsaid, it's part of the fabric of
who I am.
And I have to say, you know, Ihave a little amount of respect
for it.
I mean, look at what I've doneto this thing.
You know, I've tried to cut itout, I've tried to burn it out,
I've tried to poison it out,I've tried to starve it out.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It's still freaking there.
It wants to survive, rightEverything wants to survive.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
My hair is an example .
This is my life.
You don't get to takeeverything away.
I get to pick the parts that Iwill work on.
I'm doing road game now.
I don't know if it'll help meor not.
My doctor doesn't know if it'llhelp me or not, but what the
hell?
I'm throwing everything I canat it and I feel like you know
what?
Okay, I feel like you know what?
Okay, you're a big adversary.
Well, yeah, so am I dude.
(13:33):
Now, I don't always feel thatway.
I have to say.
Sometimes it's got me on myknees, and I feel it's very
important to say that, becausesometimes people talk to me and
they think, wow, I know someonewho's got cancer and they don't
have her attitude.
I'm like, please, I have thebad attitude plenty of the time
too, and that's another reasonto appreciate the good days when
(13:55):
they're good, because the baddays suck.
They suck a lot, but that'spart of the deal, you know, and
that's part of the way lifeworks.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely, and we always talk about the future,
don't we?
What we're going to do, andwe've been talking about this
for a long time, haven't weDoing something like this?
I'm so happy to have spoken toyou today and really had this
conversation.
We have it in this lovely safespace too.
I just love that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I agree, I'm glad we've been talking about it and
I'm glad we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yes, and more to come Next.
I love this section is calledCall in All Curls.
This is where curly girls fromall over the world call in and
ask me any question they wantabout curly hair.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
If your curls could talk.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Chantel is that you?
Yes, hello, lorraine, you're inEngland, right?
Yeah, how are you?
I'm good, good, good, so do youhave questions for me?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I do.
Yeah, I recently become like acurly hairdresser so.
I'm quite early in my career.
I mean I'm a huge fan, I'veread all your books, so I was
just wondering just any advicereally you have of just a
hairdresser starting out in theindustry.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And how long has it been so far?
How long have you been workingwith curls?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
So I've done about three years training and then
I've gone self-employed in thelast six months.
How's it going?
It's really good.
Oh, do you know what I justlove?
Curly hair.
I mean mean, I've hated my hairmy my whole life.
I'm 34 now, so till about theage 27 of just hating my hair,
and then obviously having mydaughters, I decided to embrace
(15:40):
wow, my hair for them.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Oh wow, so that was the impetus.
Really you didn't want them togo through what you went through
, kind of thing yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So my daughter bless her.
She's um, she's eight now.
She was about three at the timeand she came home from nursery
and she was like mommy, I don'tlike my hair.
It's not long and yellow and Ithink it's just that.
You know, when you've passed on, you know curly hair to your
daughter but then secretly youhate your own hair and I
remember I was like chemicallyrelaxing my hair and
(16:12):
straightening it and just doinganything to hide the fact that
I've got curly hair.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Wow.
So what is your hair like now?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
So it's all it's all natural.
I've got really textured type 3, really curly, curly hair.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So what is type 3 to you?
Because I don't use thatlanguage, because I just feel
like our curls are so organicand botanical that when I hear
type three it just doesn'tresonate with me.
How would you organicallydescribe your curls?
Are they spiral, fractal?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Honestly, do you know what I think?
I have a mixture of every typeof curl somewhere on my head.
I probably have more, say,spiral corkscrew curls than any
curls.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So you're multi-textural.
That to me, is beyond typethree.
And what was your hair before?
So it was just straighteneddown to.
It was like a straight jacketreally.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Pretty much, yeah, and I'm also mixed race as well
and I think I would put so muchemphasis on my hair and I was
almost sort of living for myhair because I wouldn't so much
emphasis on my hair and and Iwas almost sort of living for my
hair because I wouldn't want togo, like swimming no, I hated
going swimming think, oh no, Ican't do this because my hair's
gonna go curly.
I don't want this.
And yeah, it would just sort ofdictate what I did in life.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's exhausting, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
it was exhausting.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
When you met your partner, your beautiful partners
, were you curly.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
No, I was sort of stray.
I was also getting, becauseobviously the damage is then
like a vicious circle.
So I'm then relaxing my hairevery six weeks.
I was then breaking off, so I'mthen getting extensions and
then it's just the cycle.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Wow.
So that one day it was whenyour daughter came home and said
I don't like my hair, and yousaid that's it, we're done, I'm
done, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yes, I remember, and I think at the time it wasn't
straight away.
So I remember looking we hadlike a mirror and I remember
thinking to myself how can Itell my daughter her hair's
beautiful which it is whensecretly I hate my hair, I'm
straightening the life out of it?
And I just remember feeling sobad that that night I took out
my extensions, really likeliterally.
(18:19):
I thought, all right, all thesebeautiful curls are going to
come popping out.
But it didn't.
It just was like two inches ofcurly hair and then straight
ends how were the extensionsattached?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
were they sewn in or were they glued in?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
no, they were sewn in .
So I had cornrows, okay, andthen they were sewn in so I
literally just unraveled themnaively.
And then that's actually how Ifound your first book, the curly
girl handbook, because I had noidea.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So did you go online?
Did somebody recommend it orwere you just searching?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I was just searching.
I then found Facebook groups, Ithen found your book and then I
was like looking online aboutit, yeah, and it was just this
whole world.
I was like I didn't know any ofthis, but then everything sort
of like made sense.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
So what type of work did you do before you became a
hairdresser?
Or did you always know secretlyyou wanted to become a
hairdresser?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Originally I was into care work and then I had my
children.
You know I loved being a mumand then I was waiting to my
youngest daughter.
I've got an even youngerdaughter, so she's six now.
So I waited for her to be olderand once I sort of fell back in
love with my curly hair.
I didn't want women to gothrough what I went through, so
(19:33):
that's what sort of wanted me to.
Then you know what I want tohelp other women and children
and anyone just love their love,their curls, beautiful.
One question yes, clients thatare just sort of starting out
and their hair's not sort oflooking you know how they
thought it would after a certainamount of time.
What's that one bit of likeencouragement that you could
give me to?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
give to them.
Well, a lot of the times when Ireally had this moment with one
of my clients, you know, I toldher a lot.
I said, yeah, do this.
And then, when she would comein, I'm not a good enough
teacher if your hair still lookslike this.
So I had to go to the backwashand show me.
I said, show me what you do.
And that's when I realized ithas to be broken down to a fine
(20:13):
detail and that's why in thebook we have girls in the shower
and it needed to be broken downbecause she wasn't cleansing
her scalp properly, she wasn'tdetangling properly.
So it was that aha moment thatI needed to go deeper.
I needed her to show me whatshe wasn't doing or what she was
doing.
So you've also got to breakdown what products they're using
(20:34):
, because you can be giving themthe best advice, but they might
be going home and usinghorrible, gummy, smelly,
silicone-induced oily productsand nothing's going to survive
or look good with that.
So you have to ask them okay,what are you using?
Tell them to go home, put it towater.
So, whatever they're using, putit in some water.
If it doesn't mix well and turnmilky immediately, it's not
(20:58):
water soluble.
If it looks like a lava lamp,then it's not good for the hair.
So sometimes you can be givingthem the best advice.
The curly girl method is not aproduct.
It is a method of some sort,but it's very simple.
But a lot of the times peoplegive up when they're not using
the right products.
I'm sorry to say that, but it'strue.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think it's just truly education.
Chantel, sometimes you have togive analogies as well.
I'll always give an analogy asto why, like, oh, my hair's so
unruly.
Well, what do unruly childrenneed?
Unruly children need aconsistent approach.
Give your hair the consistencyit needs.
Just give it consistency andstay with the process and trust
(21:37):
it.
Trust our hair knows what to doall by itself.
We're too young.
You're too young to like yousaid your hair was dying, that
you had to put somebody else'shair in your hair.
Yeah, but nobody wants to lookat the truth.
When you actually give them thetruth, they're not happy with
it until they see the hair onthe floor and then finally it's
like okay if you can be ashonest as you can.
(21:58):
When I first started out, I hadpeople walk out.
I had people be mad at me justfor the things that I said, not
because I cut their hair.
It was more like being truthful.
But I've seen them come backnine years later, ready because
no one's going to love your hairas much as I do, or no one's
going to be, as honest as muchas I am.
So just stay with it, becausethe hair has history before they
(22:19):
come to you.
You have to remember thatYou're meeting someone for the
first time.
They're probably 30, 40, 50 or60 and you have to understand
this is a process.
It may take a few weeks, a fewmonths for your hair to really
be beautiful.
Do not rush it.
You don't need to use shampooto get rid of all your products.
Just let it dissipate.
It will eventually come out.
Don't embed it with detergents.
(22:40):
So if your curls could talk,Chantal, what would your curls
say today?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I'm happy and free and content.
Maybe that's three words.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I think they'd probably say they're content oh
no, but that's beautiful, thatyour curls can have three words,
because you have threedifferent over three different
types of curls on your head so,and do you have any other
questions, chantel?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
no, I think you've answered everything.
Oh, I just can't believe I'mspeaking to you.
I'm a, you know.
I just think you're amazing andwhat you've done is a real
credit to the world.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You know it's so lovely to talk to you and I know
that I'm going to meet you oneday.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I just know it thank you so much, lorraine.
And yeah, you're, you're areally nice person, and I can't
wait to meet you one day.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Me too.
I'm giving you a big curly hug.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yes, lovely, all right, thank you so much.
Take care um you take care bye,bye.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Thank you to our guest mindy, and our calling
chantelle, and thank you so muchto our listeners for curling in
.
Be sure to follow and share.
If your curls could talkwherever you get your podcast,
it will mean the world to us andit really makes a difference.
If anybody would like to submita question, please send it to
info at curlyworldcom orvisitors on Instagram at
(23:54):
curlyworldllc.
Thank you so much and I'll seeyou next time.
This podcast is produced by myfavorite producer, susan Kaplan.
Thanks to Dan Strong, ourengineer, and to Michael Schubra
and Chea Ponte, and a veryspecial thank you to surrella
may for writing and performingour original theme music if your
(24:32):
girls could talk.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.