May 27, 2025 • 32 mins
Becky Thompson shares her extensive experience in clinical research and project management, discussing her career journey, the challenges faced in the industry, and the importance of effective communication and team dynamics. She emphasizes the need for clinical trial project managers to adapt to new technologies, manage stress, and continuously learn to stay relevant in a rapidly changing environment. In her interview with John Reites, she also offers valuable advice for early-career professionals on how to navigate their careers in clinical research.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Project managers don't get a day off.
They're there from day one tothe last day.
They're the first standing andthe last standing.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
You have to figure out what can you control and
what can't you control and thencome up with the best steps
forward.
But The stress over time, sure,it can wear on you.
I love when I have somebody likethat on my team because it's fun
to watch them flourish and learnand develop.
Sometimes we have great linemanagers who just are fighting
for us, and sometimes you don't.
That's life, right?
(00:26):
You can't usually pick yourboss.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Thank you for joining Inclusion Criterion, a
clinical research podcast hostedby me, John Reitz.
This is an inclusive,non-corporate podcast focused on
the people and topics thatmatter to developing treatments
for everyone.
I'm John Reitz, and I'll see younext time.
It's my personal project,intended to support you in your
career, connect with industryexperts, and contribute to the
(00:48):
ideas that advance the industry.
Welcome.
Becky, thanks for joining.
It's great to see you today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Of course.
Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Who is Becky and what do you do in clinical
research?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
I have been in clinical research for my entire
career.
I kind of started my careerright out of school and got into
project leadership, started atthe very bottom as a project
coordinator.
After kind of changing paths inmy professional life, I started
medical school, decided Yeah,absolutely.
(01:48):
So when I started, we were areally small team and it's just
grown and grown and grown overthe last 18 years.
And so I switched five or sixyears ago, a little bit away
from delivering projects todoing more strategy before a
project is launched.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
I forgot about the medical school.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Do you, Is there a hint of you that ever regrets
that?
Or do you feel like when youlook back, you're like, the CRO
path was for me?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Here's what I'll say.
And this is advice I give topeople all the time whose kids
are starting school and they'relike, oh, you know, they want to
go to med school.
I just grew up thinking, I'mgoing to go to med school.
I like biology.
There wasn't any counseling forme, career counseling, to really
understand what that looked likeand what other options there
were in health care.
(02:36):
Yeah.
Just encourage people to askaround, interview, see what it's
really like day to day to be aphysician or whatever your
career is going to be.
The only thing I regret is partof me wishes I had finished all
four years instead of just thefirst couple, even if I wasn't
going to practice.
The short answer, though, Idon't regret it.
Very happy where I am.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
I did have to look it up.
So for what it's worth, youspent a little over 18 years in
clinical research, but also inCROs, right?
And so working for a clinicalresearch organization is a wide
aperture view of research.
It's a challenging workenvironment.
There's a lot of moving parts.
But to stick in that space formore than 18 years and not dip
(03:18):
your toes in the biopharma orthe biotech or provider, vendor,
patient recruitment, whateverother worlds there are in life
sciences and clinical researchthat are available to you,
sticking in the CRO means thatthere's something about it that
you like or that motivates you.
So in a nutshell, what is that?
What is the thing about a CROthat makes you continue to be
(03:38):
motivated and want to do thattype of work every day?
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
It's a good question.
And there's a lot of differentaspects and ways that could be
answered.
In part, I really like itbecause it's allowed me the
flexibility to work from home.
And a lot of times in pharma,you can't.
And so that gave my family and Ithe freedom to move when we
needed to for my spouse's job.
And I was able to keep my job.
(04:01):
So that's a very basic reason.
And there are tons of work fromhome jobs now.
So that's not as much of anissue.
But for me, what I like aboutthe CRO is that you get to work
with the sponsors and thevendors and have the holistic
view across all kinds ofproducts, indications, all
phases versus at a, for example,biotech or pharma company, you
(04:23):
may be specifically focused on asingle asset or development of a
single product.
And so this This way, everyproduct or project that I've
worked on is different.
So it keeps it very exciting andentertaining.
And there's a lot ofopportunity.
Because if you said, gosh, Idon't want to do oncology
anymore.
There's places to go.
Yeah.
And so there's lots ofopportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Yeah, opportunity.
It's a great word.
I think that's totally true.
I feel like I don't know aboutfor you, but I feel like when I
was in my Sierra career and Idid 14 and a half years, I
didn't get to 18 like you.
That's a different trophy.
But I feel like I had fourdifferent jobs.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Yes,
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
that's correct.
Because you sort of move aroundfrom clinical to project
management and again, from thegroups you get to run.
But I think it is something tokeep in mind.
I always advise people who areearlier in their career, who are
looking at how do I get involvedin clinical research?
Man, Cirrus is a greatopportunity because again, wide
aperture, lots to learn, lots ofopportunity to move around and
(05:20):
try different things.
The latter part of your careerhas been strategy, SME focused,
which is great.
Most of your career has beenreally lensed on project
management.
And so When you look at whereyou are in your career today
versus where you were before,you've obviously learned a lot.
You have a lot of advice, input,feedback, life lessons to give
to other people that are inproject management.
(05:43):
How do you shift, though?
Meaning...
You've done the work for so longand now you're not playing.
You have to be the coach and thecoach can't get in the game.
The coach has to coach.
So how do you coach projectmanagers?
How do you help them thinkknowing that you can't jump back
in and play?
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's actually one of the hardest sort of lessons
I've learned is as a projectmanager, I was in the weeds
sometimes, which we can talkmore about that because that
also doesn't That isn'tnecessarily the role of the
project manager, but I likedhaving kind of control over a
project, every aspect in a way,or at least touching.
So it was very hard totransition to not jump in and do
(06:23):
rather than guide.
And it's, I mean, similar with alot of, like you said, coaching.
It's hard not to just go do thejob.
Or if I watch, you know, a childstruggle to tie their shoe, Part
of me wants to just tie theshoe.
I'm like, well, if I don't teachthem how to do it, then my
18-year-old is going to bewearing Velcro shoes.
But it was hard for mepersonally because it was hard
(06:45):
for me to give up control.
However, the flip side is hiringpeople who are good at what they
do.
And even if they don't have theexperience, they want to learn.
And so then it's helping teachthem the skills they don't yet
have.
So that I'm like, oh, you'reBecky Jr.
Go off and do your thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
That's really honest of you.
I also, I think Velcro shoes arecoming back, actually.
I think you've missed the trendthere.
I think they're back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
It's actually the slides with socks.
So tennis shoes are definitelyout.
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Yeah, I think in our house we talk about Crocs with
socks a little more than I'dlike to admit.
So it makes sense.
I agree.
Shifting and really digging intothe role of project management
is one of the things that Ithink you have so much expertise
in.
And actually, project managershave such a functional role in
helping to be inclusive, right?
To bring everybody around into astudy and to make that work.
(07:36):
We used to always talk about PMswere the conductors of the
orchestra.
And the orchestra was filledwith all these experts and
leaders.
And your job was to pulltogether the best leaders and
orchestrate the movementstogether to help manage the
complexity, which was a clinicaltrial.
Project managers don't get a dayoff.
They're there from day one tothe last day.
They're the first standing andthe last standing.
(07:57):
I were watching a TikTok and itwas called day in the life of a
clinical trial manager.
What would the video show me?
SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
I try to explain this to people because the flip
side is when you tell people youwork at a CRO in project
management, they're like, what'sthat?
You know, it's like they knowwhat project managers.
So I have spent kind of a lot oftime trying to explain the role
to others.
The best way I can go about itis, pretend that you're having a
dinner party.
You find out right before peopleare arriving that one of your
(08:26):
guests is deathly allergic topeanuts and you have a chicken
saute with peanut sauce.
And then you also discover thatyour water has been shut off
because of maintenance.
And you then have to think toyourself, how can I pivot
quickly.
It's nothing catastrophic.
I don't want it to make it soundscary, but it's going into your
day thinking, this is what I'mgoing to accomplish.
(08:50):
I love a to-do list.
Here's my check.
So you're getting dinner ready,you're getting everything set
up, and then you're justthrowing a curveball.
And you have to be able tocalmly shift and reassure
everybody on your ship or inyour orchestra how they can
approach it differently to stillbe successful.
So you have to scrap what youhad planned and say, well, you
know what, guys, we're orderingpizza and that's fine.
(09:12):
So it's approaching thosechallenges with an open mind and
kind of learning how to calmlyaddress what comes up day to
day.
The stories could go on foreverand ever and ever.
Being a project manager actuallysets you up, in my opinion, to
successfully pivot to any partof clinical research, because
once you've delivered a study,you actually understand how it
(09:32):
works.
But that does mean getting intowhat does data management do?
what does clinical monitoringdo, understanding fundamentally
what they do and what keeps themup at night.
I was never a CRA.
A lot of people do clinicalmonitoring where they visit
sites and look at data.
I need to understand what amonitoring visit looks like.
So I spent a lot of time with myteam and I would actually go
(09:55):
with them and see how thingswere working at the site, what
were the issues, what does itlook like to do accountability
of investigational product.
And so that's where we got to asite in Florida.
We get there and it's our firstvisit for this study.
We've done things over the phoneand come to find out the study
(10:15):
nurse had forgotten to give thepatients their questionnaires
that they were filling out.
So she just filled them out forthem and told us that was the
data.
I'll stop there, but then you'rekind of on the hook for the
error, yet the site told youthey did one thing and did
something else.
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
That was just a day in life of PM for me.
So I think that's really verynormal.
Having a good perspective ofthat, it's always been really
important in project management,because it's tough.
When you coach and you talkabout project managers, you know
what good looks like, right?
When you've been managingprojects that long.
So when you're looking forproject managers that really
don't just differentiate, right?
(10:55):
I mean, they're a little good atthis or a little better than
this.
They contrast the market, right?
Types of people that you say,I've got this problem and they
go, hey, like tag me in, Becky,give it to me.
I got it.
I'll take care of it.
When you're looking for thosepeople, what are the things you
advise those types ofindividuals to do to really
continue to stand out?
and to really lead so they canadvance their career maybe a
(11:17):
little faster than everybodyelse.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
I love when I have somebody like that on my team
because it's fun to watch themsort of flourish and learn and
develop.
But a few things come to mind.
I mean, first of all is don't beshy or embarrassed to celebrate
your own personal successes.
You can't rely on others always.
Sometimes we have great linemanagers who just are fighting
for us.
And sometimes you don't, that'slife, right?
(11:40):
You can't usually pick yourboss.
And so you have to advocate foryourself in a professional way.
You know, there's a line betweenjust Becky did this, this, this,
look how great I am versusreally recognizing success.
But my main point Here is as ateam, you say my team, because
you're supporting an entire teamof people, but making sure
(12:02):
there's awareness when things dogo well.
The other thing is make yoursponsor counterpart look good.
You make them look good.
They come back and say, I wanther on my next study because she
or he prepared me for presentingthings to my management.
So it's that proactivity andthinking like what's coming
next, what could go wrong, youknow, embracing the challenges
(12:24):
and wins at the same time.
The other thing is network.
Always, always, always build upa network.
And I say that meaningfully.
So if you're in projectleadership and you want to
further your career, I think oneof the most important things,
and I kind of referenced thisearlier, is understanding how
your team works.
No, you don't have to go learnhow to program a database, but
(12:44):
you need to understand whatkeeps your functional leaders up
at night.
And that way you motivate yourteam.
And then you're all moresuccessful.
It's really managing differenttypes of people, different roles
and doing doing it well so thatat the end of the day, yeah,
you're gonna always havehiccups, but I'm gonna say, wow,
she was really good.
(13:05):
Yeah, if a study had never had aprotocol deviation, I'd be
really, really, really worried.
So just dealing with thosethings, but being proactive,
professional, proficient, Thenyou start rising.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
When you think about biopharma specifically,
servicing a biopharma, obviouslya project manager's job, like
you said, is to help them say,I'm going to manage this cog of
this greater machine that is thetrial.
I've got this.
My job is to be your counterpartand support that.
Good PMs take that approach.
But what do you hear frombiopharma?
When you talk to biopharma, youhave clients and people you meet
(13:39):
with on a regular basis.
What do they say is like thenumber one and the number two
reason that they say they lovetheir PM or they would vouch for
their PM.
Like what are the specifics thatthose PMs do?
Whereas a lot of other maybe PMsmight get up.
Yeah, they're, they're
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
good.
Yeah.
They do their job.
Sure.
Having built a lot ofrelationships with my
counterparts at clients whowould vouch for me and then
watching people in my team doit.
The number one thing iscommunication, open and honest
communication.
If you don't have an answerimmediately, You tell them I got
your email or I got your phonecall.
I'm acknowledging it and I willcome back to you because one of
(14:16):
the most frustrating things forthem is they're worried about
something.
They need an answer.
They don't know if you'reworking on it or not.
Eventually, as they get to knowyou, they're like, I know she'll
get me the answer tomorrow.
That's fine.
But establish that trust,acknowledge their concern.
And then the other is be honest.
Studies never go perfectlyright.
Don't spring something on them.
(14:38):
six months down the road whereyou're like well six months ago
we used all the monitoringvisits in our budget so we're
gonna need$500,000.
Well, that's not good.
Do not surprise them, right?
You've got to have opencommunication and don't be
afraid to have difficultconversations with them.
They may not react well, butthey will trust and respect you
(14:59):
if you handle it professionally.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Take the flip side of that.
So let's say I'm a technologyprovider, right?
My job is a tech provider.
I'm a member.
I have a lead.
I'm a member of a team.
I'm there with the data managerand the clinical team.
And I'm trying to make sure thatthe PM at the CRO loves me and
is an ambassador and that I tryto help make their life easier
and better.
What do you recommend to thosecompanies to do and do better to
(15:25):
make sure that they help theirPM and are seen well by the
project managers they supportwhen they're working with CROs?
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
As a project lead, you're going to start forming
kind of favorite vendors or techproviders, sometimes because of
those relationships.
Because you know, I'm going tocall John and I'm going to get
what I need.
He's going to deliver.
And so...
And it's kind of fun being onthe flip side because usually
I'm on the receiving end.
But when you get to sort ofpartner with your tech vendor,
you see that side of it.
(15:53):
For me, I might love yourproduct or the technology or
whatever service you'reproviding.
I need to be able to explain whyit's better than anything.
the other choices in a way thatmakes sense to me and to my
management.
So you need to really understandin a very small bite size and
for nuggets.
These are the three reasons whythis technology vendor product
(16:15):
is better than the others andhelp me be able to explain that
to my management or my sponsorto say that's why we're choosing
this tech vendor because theywant us to make recommendations.
So I need to be able to explainit.
And I'm not the expert.
I'm not a technology expert.
So you have to help me tell thestory.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
That's important.
Thank you.
There was a movement we used tohave.
It was called the ProjectManagement Lifestyle.
And I think it was this trainingprogram that was frankly a
little bit more about how do Itrain stoicism and help cope
with stress because projectmanagement is a high stress job
in every industry.
And that includes clinicaltrials, right?
Knowing that, you know, our job,so manage studies that are
(16:52):
putting experimental medicationsin people's bodies.
We are doing very complex workevery day.
So PMs who have to manage thathave a stressful role.
So how have you managed stressand how do you, essentially
manage stress over a long periodof time, right?
Not a short burst, but yearafter year.
How do you do that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
You're absolutely right.
But keep in mind that there arehighs and lows too, right?
It is very stressful.
But over time, you kind of learnwhat is actually important,
right?
You can't panic about every timea sponsor might escalate or, you
be upset or you're off onenrollment.
Those are all things thatmatter, but you have to take the
(17:34):
personal feelings out of it,right?
It's this is my job and I wantto do a good job, but you have
to figure out what can youcontrol and what can't you
control and then come up withthe best steps forward.
But the stress over time, sure,it can wear on you.
Sometimes you're in the pits ofit and you're trying to lock a
database for a filing and allhands on deck.
(17:55):
Those times exist.
You don't get a break.
But there are other times whenthe stressful situation, it
really could wait till tomorrow.
You finishing it today isn'tgoing to make a difference.
So go play with your kids.
Go have dinner with yourfriends.
Go for a walk.
So it's kind of just maturingand learning what is mission
critical, drop everything.
And what is, I see that and Iwill get to it when I can get to
(18:16):
it.
And when you also find peopleyou trust.
I have buddies at work that Ican call up and just say, I have
to tell you about my day.
because they understand.
My friends don't know whatclinical research is like, but
just listen to what happenedtoday and just venting.
And then I'm like, okay, thanks.
You know, how are you?
And that really helps evenremotely form those friendships
at work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
When you think about the stress, what is it that
actually keeps PMs up at night?
I'm hoping that every projectmanager that's listening feels
this answer and goes, yep,that's me.
So because you know this, butWhat is it that keeps PM set up?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
It depends.
There is no single answer forthat, right?
Depends what's going on in yourstudy.
So fundamentally, though, whatkeeps you up is, for me, is my
sponsor happy?
Am I doing things well?
Are we going to deliver thisstudy successfully?
And so it just depends on whereyou are in the study, but
fundamentally, It's the nightbefore I'm thinking, well, let's
(19:13):
say we're supposed to get ourfirst patient in tomorrow.
Well, then I'm worried, like,are they going to show up?
What if they don't?
And then if they don't, I got totell the sponsor they're not
there.
And then what are we going todo?
And you don't want to go downthat rabbit hole.
So it's understanding, dependingon the phase of the study you're
in.
what could happen.
And being proactive.
Be prepared.
As you experience more stressfultimes, you learn the best way to
(19:35):
address certain challenges thatwork for you.
They don't work for otherpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
I always think it's interesting, too, when you PM
earlier in your career, you seesomething and it's the first
time.
And then what's so interestingas a project manager is you see
so many trends.
I have seen this so many times.
I think even though it's not thenews you're looking for, it
means you've got to solutionsomething different.
Because you've seen it so manytimes, you're sort of mentality
coming in to solve that problemis, okay, seeing this, this is
(20:01):
what we need to do.
This is how we need to do it.
How do we go craft thissolution?
That just comes with experienceis how that expertise comes.
But on the flip side, so ifyou've got the low lows and the
stress part, which is part ofit, there are a lot of high
highs because when you're aproject manager, being the
coach, being the orchestratormeans that job where maybe you
don't get as much of theaccolades during the day.
(20:21):
But when you get to the bigmilestones, that's really proud
moments.
And some of the proudest momentsI had in my career where you
worked for six months and youmoved everything and then you
got an FPI the day before it wasdue.
I think for me, it was like thiscollective sigh of relief, like
you did it, right?
Because you want to win and youwant to help your sponsor do
(20:42):
that.
And so what are...
What are some of the bestpractices that you coach project
managers to do when they want tocongratulate people, they want
to acknowledge people, they wantto motivate team, maybe in the
day-to-day when it is stressful,but also when you get to these
larger milestones?
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Two different things that I think day-to-day
motivating people, my advice isto understand each individual's
worries, concerns, personalitytype.
Some people might be influencedby time off or stress.
I might be influenced bypositive praise, right?
Or it's just, you have to knowwhat motivates people.
(21:20):
Some people really wantrecognition.
For those individuals, it may becollectively to the team or
calling them out if they'vereally performed well.
So it's not, Becky did a goodjob.
It's Becky's team.
And these individuals reallywent above and beyond or came
through or were innovative orcame up with a solution.
So we achieved this goal.
(21:41):
And you should do that no matterwhat.
For some people, that's enoughmotivation.
But for others, in myexperience, it's offering them
opportunities to say, well,let's get through this and then
let's figure out how I can helpyou move up in your career let's
say or let me introduce you tosome additional people if you
want to learn about somethingbut it's being their sort of
(22:02):
mentor and partner andunderstanding what drives them
to do their job.
Sort of, it's hard.
A lot of companies also, I willsay, have like rewards programs,
especially big CROs where yougive like points and then you
can buy something or trade it infor some gear or a day off.
And so even some of that is, Ithink, really motivating.
(22:22):
And then kind of coming back tois the opportunities, figuring
out And this is if you're a linemanager or a project manager.
But what does your team want outof their CRO experience?
And is there any way you canhelp them?
And if you can't, maybe you canintroduce them to somebody who
can.
SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
I think for me, this principle of do for one what you
wish you could do for everybody.
And sometimes, and I think I wasfaulted at this as a project
manager.
Some would do a good job.
And I'm like, well, I need tomake sure I take care of the
team.
And so it was always the team.
But sometimes...
Becky Thompson did an awesomejob, and I really just need to
call out Becky Thompson.
How do PMs educate themselves?
(23:01):
If project managers are stressedout, but also have lots of
highs, and they're working toorchestrate this huge orchestra
thing, And they've got to focuson the sponsor and the vendor
and do all these other things.
How do they actually take timefor themselves?
And when they do, what do yourecommend they read or do to
educate to get sharper in theircraft?
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
First thing is it depends what type of learner you
are, right?
Because some people are going tobe readers.
Some people may not be.
But in general, stay on top ofindustry trends.
And that can be just as simpleas I get an email every morning
with kind of top news stories inthe industry.
And I try to read it.
Some days it's, you know, set upto sound down and I'm like, I
(23:45):
have so many emails.
But when I do have time, atleast scan it.
And when something isinteresting or relevant to you,
read about it.
I love TED Talks becausesometimes I get really tired of
reading.
Like your eyes are just tired.
You're at the computer all day.
So I also love like listening toTED Talks.
The other thing is I have becomeover time very keenly aware of
my strengths and weaknesses.
(24:05):
So when I was a project leader,I had to do that as well and
say, what do I need to learnmore about to be a better
project manager?
Maybe for somebody it'sfinancial acumen.
Maybe for somebody it'scommunicating with people.
They're great at their job, butthey're not really good at being
part of a team.
And so figure out what that isand either go to your manager or
(24:25):
a mentor or a colleague, figureout how you can get better in
that area.
And maybe it's shadowing aperson.
Maybe it's watching how they dotheir job.
Maybe there is a great book.
It just depends what thequestion is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
One of the questions I would get all the time is very
similar is I'm really good atPM, but I want to learn how to
sell.
I want to learn how to market.
I want to learn how to be betterat social media, whatever that
thing is.
I created actually a thingcalled toolbox on my website and
I send students there all thetime to say, Hey, if you want
like assets here, they are.
And they're just, you know,reams of books and blogs and
(24:59):
YouTube videos that I foundhelpful because you're right.
When you're a project manager,you do so much.
You have to stop and think aboutyourself for a second and say,
how do I sharpen my skills howdo I get better and how do I
spend time learning it's reallyimportant talking about what's
trending too because I thinkit's interesting that you
mentioned that There's a lot oftrends going on in management in
(25:19):
general, in managing projects.
Clinical research is included inthat conversation, even though
there's a lot of niche skillsand capabilities needed to
manage a clinical trial as aproject manager.
You actually have to know howclinical trials work.
But you've got all thisinnovation happening in software
and all the integrations thatoccur now that weren't around
when we were PMs earlier in ourcareer.
(25:41):
You've got SaaS technologies,and now you've got AI.
Everybody's favorite topic.
You know, so how do PMs keep up?
And what I would say is how dothey keep up?
But how do they adapt to thesetools?
Because a lot of them areintended to do a lot of the
things that project managers do.
So how do they keep up?
But then how do they start toadapt?
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
It's a great question that comes up all the
time.
And at the CROs I've been at andat conferences, It's always
everybody's favorite questionbecause everybody loves AI.
My thing with AI in general isit's not going to replace the
project manager's job, but whatit's going to do is give you
tools in order to be moreeffective as a project manager.
(26:22):
So there's a lot of fear aroundAI.
I think as PMs or as CROorganizations, we are the
experts.
I know what it's like to managea project.
So I want to work with mycompany to tell them what
actually would help me be moreeffective because I know what
(26:43):
was maybe very manual or whatcould be optimized where you're
guessing and you're not gettingit right, but AI really could
help.
So I think it's exciting.
I think people are very nervousand change is hard.
And I mean, remember going frompaper CRFs to EDC and it was
like, Wow.
So it's coming.
We've got to embrace it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
One of the talk tracks I hear, again,
specifically around projectmanagement, is that these tools
should increase efficiency now.
And what does that mean?
It means we can take a PM andI'm making the numbers up.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
I know.
The
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
average PM manages two projects per FT.
Now they're four.
SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Whatever the number is.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:19):
If you hear that or if someone brings that up, Let's
just say from another CRO.
How do you address that?
How do you talk through thatwith somebody to make sure we're
thinking about the future andincorporating, but we're being
very measured about what'sactually achievable today?
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
The ELT boards can all get very, very excited
about, oh my gosh, we can havefewer people do more things.
That's good for business.
That's more revenue.
And that's great.
But it's being realistic aboutit.
How much time will these toolssave?
And it may not be that they'reactually reducing the amount of
work.
It may be that Thank you somuch.
(28:03):
To me, that's a slippery slope,and you have to really look at
what these new AI tools andtechnology is doing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
I got a similar question in project management
recently, and my answer was, howmany of your PMs are using
Copilot to write their meetingminutes?
And the person said, what'sCopilot?
And I went, okay, so here's whatwe're going to do.
Let's just start with using AIto draft meeting minutes.
Let's just get started, and thenwe'll figure it out.
But if you're so early in thatyou haven't started to draft
(28:32):
meetings, meeting minutes, youprobably have a long way to go
to figure out how this is goingto increase capacity in your
study.
SPEAKER_00 (28:38):
For all the project leaders listening, in my mind,
the most practical ways today AIis going to help them do their
jobs is things like meetingminutes, slides, but it's also
figuring out tools.
I've heard a lot about how it ishelping write trip reports for
CRAs more faster, moreeffectively, more efficiently.
Well, that's great.
(28:59):
And where I think the two placesI'm most excited about Thinking
back to just being kept up atnight as a PL is better
forecasting and optimizingrecruitment.
So you have better, morerealistic timelines for how
you're going to enroll a trial.
And then it's investigator grantplanning and financial
forecasting, things that won'tnecessarily save time, but
(29:21):
they'll make your project moresuccessful.
And then resource planning is abig one.
But those are very small placesto start a tangible, real,
achievable project.
goals we could get to.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
There's no doubt.
that these tools, that thesefeatures can make people more
efficient.
But like everything else intechnology, right?
Like what I learned intechnology is you can build the
greatest, simplest, most easiestto use technology that the
button says next.
You are still going to have totrain people, advocate and help
them adopt to make things work.
And that's no different thanproject managers.
(29:55):
Even though I would tell you, Ithink some PMs are some of the
best learners and implementersand people that scale things.
There is still a lot to be donehere.
And a trend to definitely keepan eye on you've seen the market
at the top you've seen themarket in the middle you've seen
the market at the bottom youknow just like everything else
that's cyclical we're in achallenging unique time in our
(30:15):
industry today as we record thisin clinical research if you have
somebody that's earlier in theircareer early in a project
management role they haveeverything we've talked about
today sitting on their right andon their left shoulder and then
you say hey let's add marketcomplexity and challenges on top
of that what do you tell anindividual like that about how
to really have grit and dig into really think differently in
(30:39):
phases like this in the marketwe're having.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
It's really tough, but we've been there.
And first is it's cyclical.
So know that it will get betterand it will happen.
go down and up and down.
So just take a breath and knowwe will come out of this.
You know, we can't predict thefuture.
Maybe AI knows.
But in the meantime, I thinkit's actually there's going to
be so much opportunity foryounger individuals starting out
(31:02):
their career for so manyreasons.
First of all, hang in there.
It may be tough.
You may be asked to do thingsthat aren't typically your job
because it's all hands on deckto be successful.
Say yes.
Say, how can I help?
jump in, do whatever you can,even if it means you're maybe
doing the role of a clinicalteam member, but you're helping.
Be that person that says she'swilling or he's willing to do
(31:26):
anything.
That's going to help with yourreputation.
And then be patient.
In the downtime, read books, TEDTalks, whatever.
Stay engaged in what's going onin the industry.
But in six to nine months,there's going to be more
opportunities as we come out ofthis.
So keep networking and learningso that when openings come up,
people are going to say, well, Iknow that person.
(31:48):
They are willing to put in theeffort.
They could be great at this job.
I think it's a It's scary, butit's also a very exciting time
for people earlier on in theircareers because the
opportunities are coming andthere's going to be a lot of
them.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Becky, thanks so much.
Thanks for spending time todayto talk about project
management.
When I look at everything we'retrying to do at Inclusion
Criteria, everything we'rethinking about in the market
from helping people in theircareers to keeping up with
trends to connecting withexperts so we can learn from
them, you've really helped us dothat today.
If someone wants to connect withyou, and ask you questions or
just learn more, what's the bestway to reach you?
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
LinkedIn.
Message me on LinkedIn.
I will get back to you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Becky, thanks so much.
And we'll talk to you againsoon.
Project managers don't get a day off.
They're there from day one tothe last day.
They're the first standing andthe last standing.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
You have to figure out what can you control and
what can't you control and thencome up with the best steps
forward.
But The stress over time, sure,it can wear on you.
I love when I have somebody likethat on my team because it's fun
to watch them flourish and learnand develop.
Sometimes we have great linemanagers who just are fighting
for us, and sometimes you don't.
That's life, right?
(00:26):
You can't usually pick yourboss.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Thank you for joining Inclusion Criterion, a
clinical research podcast hostedby me, John Reitz.
This is an inclusive,non-corporate podcast focused on
the people and topics thatmatter to developing treatments
for everyone.
I'm John Reitz, and I'll see younext time.
It's my personal project,intended to support you in your
career, connect with industryexperts, and contribute to the
(00:48):
ideas that advance the industry.
Welcome.
Becky, thanks for joining.
It's great to see you today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Of course.
Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Who is Becky and what do you do in clinical
research?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
I have been in clinical research for my entire
career.
I kind of started my careerright out of school and got into
project leadership, started atthe very bottom as a project
coordinator.
After kind of changing paths inmy professional life, I started
medical school, decided Yeah,absolutely.
(01:48):
So when I started, we were areally small team and it's just
grown and grown and grown overthe last 18 years.
And so I switched five or sixyears ago, a little bit away
from delivering projects todoing more strategy before a
project is launched.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
I forgot about the medical school.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Do you, Is there a hint of you that ever regrets
that?
Or do you feel like when youlook back, you're like, the CRO
path was for me?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Here's what I'll say.
And this is advice I give topeople all the time whose kids
are starting school and they'relike, oh, you know, they want to
go to med school.
I just grew up thinking, I'mgoing to go to med school.
I like biology.
There wasn't any counseling forme, career counseling, to really
understand what that looked likeand what other options there
were in health care.
(02:36):
Yeah.
Just encourage people to askaround, interview, see what it's
really like day to day to be aphysician or whatever your
career is going to be.
The only thing I regret is partof me wishes I had finished all
four years instead of just thefirst couple, even if I wasn't
going to practice.
The short answer, though, Idon't regret it.
Very happy where I am.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
I did have to look it up.
So for what it's worth, youspent a little over 18 years in
clinical research, but also inCROs, right?
And so working for a clinicalresearch organization is a wide
aperture view of research.
It's a challenging workenvironment.
There's a lot of moving parts.
But to stick in that space formore than 18 years and not dip
(03:18):
your toes in the biopharma orthe biotech or provider, vendor,
patient recruitment, whateverother worlds there are in life
sciences and clinical researchthat are available to you,
sticking in the CRO means thatthere's something about it that
you like or that motivates you.
So in a nutshell, what is that?
What is the thing about a CROthat makes you continue to be
(03:38):
motivated and want to do thattype of work every day?
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
It's a good question.
And there's a lot of differentaspects and ways that could be
answered.
In part, I really like itbecause it's allowed me the
flexibility to work from home.
And a lot of times in pharma,you can't.
And so that gave my family and Ithe freedom to move when we
needed to for my spouse's job.
And I was able to keep my job.
(04:01):
So that's a very basic reason.
And there are tons of work fromhome jobs now.
So that's not as much of anissue.
But for me, what I like aboutthe CRO is that you get to work
with the sponsors and thevendors and have the holistic
view across all kinds ofproducts, indications, all
phases versus at a, for example,biotech or pharma company, you
(04:23):
may be specifically focused on asingle asset or development of a
single product.
And so this This way, everyproduct or project that I've
worked on is different.
So it keeps it very exciting andentertaining.
And there's a lot ofopportunity.
Because if you said, gosh, Idon't want to do oncology
anymore.
There's places to go.
Yeah.
And so there's lots ofopportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Yeah, opportunity.
It's a great word.
I think that's totally true.
I feel like I don't know aboutfor you, but I feel like when I
was in my Sierra career and Idid 14 and a half years, I
didn't get to 18 like you.
That's a different trophy.
But I feel like I had fourdifferent jobs.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Yes,
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
that's correct.
Because you sort of move aroundfrom clinical to project
management and again, from thegroups you get to run.
But I think it is something tokeep in mind.
I always advise people who areearlier in their career, who are
looking at how do I get involvedin clinical research?
Man, Cirrus is a greatopportunity because again, wide
aperture, lots to learn, lots ofopportunity to move around and
(05:20):
try different things.
The latter part of your careerhas been strategy, SME focused,
which is great.
Most of your career has beenreally lensed on project
management.
And so When you look at whereyou are in your career today
versus where you were before,you've obviously learned a lot.
You have a lot of advice, input,feedback, life lessons to give
to other people that are inproject management.
(05:43):
How do you shift, though?
Meaning...
You've done the work for so longand now you're not playing.
You have to be the coach and thecoach can't get in the game.
The coach has to coach.
So how do you coach projectmanagers?
How do you help them thinkknowing that you can't jump back
in and play?
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's actually one of the hardest sort of lessons
I've learned is as a projectmanager, I was in the weeds
sometimes, which we can talkmore about that because that
also doesn't That isn'tnecessarily the role of the
project manager, but I likedhaving kind of control over a
project, every aspect in a way,or at least touching.
So it was very hard totransition to not jump in and do
(06:23):
rather than guide.
And it's, I mean, similar with alot of, like you said, coaching.
It's hard not to just go do thejob.
Or if I watch, you know, a childstruggle to tie their shoe, Part
of me wants to just tie theshoe.
I'm like, well, if I don't teachthem how to do it, then my
18-year-old is going to bewearing Velcro shoes.
But it was hard for mepersonally because it was hard
(06:45):
for me to give up control.
However, the flip side is hiringpeople who are good at what they
do.
And even if they don't have theexperience, they want to learn.
And so then it's helping teachthem the skills they don't yet
have.
So that I'm like, oh, you'reBecky Jr.
Go off and do your thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
That's really honest of you.
I also, I think Velcro shoes arecoming back, actually.
I think you've missed the trendthere.
I think they're back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
It's actually the slides with socks.
So tennis shoes are definitelyout.
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Yeah, I think in our house we talk about Crocs with
socks a little more than I'dlike to admit.
So it makes sense.
I agree.
Shifting and really digging intothe role of project management
is one of the things that Ithink you have so much expertise
in.
And actually, project managershave such a functional role in
helping to be inclusive, right?
To bring everybody around into astudy and to make that work.
(07:36):
We used to always talk about PMswere the conductors of the
orchestra.
And the orchestra was filledwith all these experts and
leaders.
And your job was to pulltogether the best leaders and
orchestrate the movementstogether to help manage the
complexity, which was a clinicaltrial.
Project managers don't get a dayoff.
They're there from day one tothe last day.
They're the first standing andthe last standing.
(07:57):
I were watching a TikTok and itwas called day in the life of a
clinical trial manager.
What would the video show me?
SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
I try to explain this to people because the flip
side is when you tell people youwork at a CRO in project
management, they're like, what'sthat?
You know, it's like they knowwhat project managers.
So I have spent kind of a lot oftime trying to explain the role
to others.
The best way I can go about itis, pretend that you're having a
dinner party.
You find out right before peopleare arriving that one of your
(08:26):
guests is deathly allergic topeanuts and you have a chicken
saute with peanut sauce.
And then you also discover thatyour water has been shut off
because of maintenance.
And you then have to think toyourself, how can I pivot
quickly.
It's nothing catastrophic.
I don't want it to make it soundscary, but it's going into your
day thinking, this is what I'mgoing to accomplish.
(08:50):
I love a to-do list.
Here's my check.
So you're getting dinner ready,you're getting everything set
up, and then you're justthrowing a curveball.
And you have to be able tocalmly shift and reassure
everybody on your ship or inyour orchestra how they can
approach it differently to stillbe successful.
So you have to scrap what youhad planned and say, well, you
know what, guys, we're orderingpizza and that's fine.
(09:12):
So it's approaching thosechallenges with an open mind and
kind of learning how to calmlyaddress what comes up day to
day.
The stories could go on foreverand ever and ever.
Being a project manager actuallysets you up, in my opinion, to
successfully pivot to any partof clinical research, because
once you've delivered a study,you actually understand how it
(09:32):
works.
But that does mean getting intowhat does data management do?
what does clinical monitoringdo, understanding fundamentally
what they do and what keeps themup at night.
I was never a CRA.
A lot of people do clinicalmonitoring where they visit
sites and look at data.
I need to understand what amonitoring visit looks like.
So I spent a lot of time with myteam and I would actually go
(09:55):
with them and see how thingswere working at the site, what
were the issues, what does itlook like to do accountability
of investigational product.
And so that's where we got to asite in Florida.
We get there and it's our firstvisit for this study.
We've done things over the phoneand come to find out the study
(10:15):
nurse had forgotten to give thepatients their questionnaires
that they were filling out.
So she just filled them out forthem and told us that was the
data.
I'll stop there, but then you'rekind of on the hook for the
error, yet the site told youthey did one thing and did
something else.
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
That was just a day in life of PM for me.
So I think that's really verynormal.
Having a good perspective ofthat, it's always been really
important in project management,because it's tough.
When you coach and you talkabout project managers, you know
what good looks like, right?
When you've been managingprojects that long.
So when you're looking forproject managers that really
don't just differentiate, right?
(10:55):
I mean, they're a little good atthis or a little better than
this.
They contrast the market, right?
Types of people that you say,I've got this problem and they
go, hey, like tag me in, Becky,give it to me.
I got it.
I'll take care of it.
When you're looking for thosepeople, what are the things you
advise those types ofindividuals to do to really
continue to stand out?
and to really lead so they canadvance their career maybe a
(11:17):
little faster than everybodyelse.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
I love when I have somebody like that on my team
because it's fun to watch themsort of flourish and learn and
develop.
But a few things come to mind.
I mean, first of all is don't beshy or embarrassed to celebrate
your own personal successes.
You can't rely on others always.
Sometimes we have great linemanagers who just are fighting
for us.
And sometimes you don't, that'slife, right?
(11:40):
You can't usually pick yourboss.
And so you have to advocate foryourself in a professional way.
You know, there's a line betweenjust Becky did this, this, this,
look how great I am versusreally recognizing success.
But my main point Here is as ateam, you say my team, because
you're supporting an entire teamof people, but making sure
(12:02):
there's awareness when things dogo well.
The other thing is make yoursponsor counterpart look good.
You make them look good.
They come back and say, I wanther on my next study because she
or he prepared me for presentingthings to my management.
So it's that proactivity andthinking like what's coming
next, what could go wrong, youknow, embracing the challenges
(12:24):
and wins at the same time.
The other thing is network.
Always, always, always build upa network.
And I say that meaningfully.
So if you're in projectleadership and you want to
further your career, I think oneof the most important things,
and I kind of referenced thisearlier, is understanding how
your team works.
No, you don't have to go learnhow to program a database, but
(12:44):
you need to understand whatkeeps your functional leaders up
at night.
And that way you motivate yourteam.
And then you're all moresuccessful.
It's really managing differenttypes of people, different roles
and doing doing it well so thatat the end of the day, yeah,
you're gonna always havehiccups, but I'm gonna say, wow,
she was really good.
(13:05):
Yeah, if a study had never had aprotocol deviation, I'd be
really, really, really worried.
So just dealing with thosethings, but being proactive,
professional, proficient, Thenyou start rising.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
When you think about biopharma specifically,
servicing a biopharma, obviouslya project manager's job, like
you said, is to help them say,I'm going to manage this cog of
this greater machine that is thetrial.
I've got this.
My job is to be your counterpartand support that.
Good PMs take that approach.
But what do you hear frombiopharma?
When you talk to biopharma, youhave clients and people you meet
(13:39):
with on a regular basis.
What do they say is like thenumber one and the number two
reason that they say they lovetheir PM or they would vouch for
their PM.
Like what are the specifics thatthose PMs do?
Whereas a lot of other maybe PMsmight get up.
Yeah, they're, they're
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
good.
Yeah.
They do their job.
Sure.
Having built a lot ofrelationships with my
counterparts at clients whowould vouch for me and then
watching people in my team doit.
The number one thing iscommunication, open and honest
communication.
If you don't have an answerimmediately, You tell them I got
your email or I got your phonecall.
I'm acknowledging it and I willcome back to you because one of
(14:16):
the most frustrating things forthem is they're worried about
something.
They need an answer.
They don't know if you'reworking on it or not.
Eventually, as they get to knowyou, they're like, I know she'll
get me the answer tomorrow.
That's fine.
But establish that trust,acknowledge their concern.
And then the other is be honest.
Studies never go perfectlyright.
Don't spring something on them.
(14:38):
six months down the road whereyou're like well six months ago
we used all the monitoringvisits in our budget so we're
gonna need$500,000.
Well, that's not good.
Do not surprise them, right?
You've got to have opencommunication and don't be
afraid to have difficultconversations with them.
They may not react well, butthey will trust and respect you
(14:59):
if you handle it professionally.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Take the flip side of that.
So let's say I'm a technologyprovider, right?
My job is a tech provider.
I'm a member.
I have a lead.
I'm a member of a team.
I'm there with the data managerand the clinical team.
And I'm trying to make sure thatthe PM at the CRO loves me and
is an ambassador and that I tryto help make their life easier
and better.
What do you recommend to thosecompanies to do and do better to
(15:25):
make sure that they help theirPM and are seen well by the
project managers they supportwhen they're working with CROs?
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
As a project lead, you're going to start forming
kind of favorite vendors or techproviders, sometimes because of
those relationships.
Because you know, I'm going tocall John and I'm going to get
what I need.
He's going to deliver.
And so...
And it's kind of fun being onthe flip side because usually
I'm on the receiving end.
But when you get to sort ofpartner with your tech vendor,
you see that side of it.
(15:53):
For me, I might love yourproduct or the technology or
whatever service you'reproviding.
I need to be able to explain whyit's better than anything.
the other choices in a way thatmakes sense to me and to my
management.
So you need to really understandin a very small bite size and
for nuggets.
These are the three reasons whythis technology vendor product
(16:15):
is better than the others andhelp me be able to explain that
to my management or my sponsorto say that's why we're choosing
this tech vendor because theywant us to make recommendations.
So I need to be able to explainit.
And I'm not the expert.
I'm not a technology expert.
So you have to help me tell thestory.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
That's important.
Thank you.
There was a movement we used tohave.
It was called the ProjectManagement Lifestyle.
And I think it was this trainingprogram that was frankly a
little bit more about how do Itrain stoicism and help cope
with stress because projectmanagement is a high stress job
in every industry.
And that includes clinicaltrials, right?
Knowing that, you know, our job,so manage studies that are
(16:52):
putting experimental medicationsin people's bodies.
We are doing very complex workevery day.
So PMs who have to manage thathave a stressful role.
So how have you managed stressand how do you, essentially
manage stress over a long periodof time, right?
Not a short burst, but yearafter year.
How do you do that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
You're absolutely right.
But keep in mind that there arehighs and lows too, right?
It is very stressful.
But over time, you kind of learnwhat is actually important,
right?
You can't panic about every timea sponsor might escalate or, you
be upset or you're off onenrollment.
Those are all things thatmatter, but you have to take the
(17:34):
personal feelings out of it,right?
It's this is my job and I wantto do a good job, but you have
to figure out what can youcontrol and what can't you
control and then come up withthe best steps forward.
But the stress over time, sure,it can wear on you.
Sometimes you're in the pits ofit and you're trying to lock a
database for a filing and allhands on deck.
(17:55):
Those times exist.
You don't get a break.
But there are other times whenthe stressful situation, it
really could wait till tomorrow.
You finishing it today isn'tgoing to make a difference.
So go play with your kids.
Go have dinner with yourfriends.
Go for a walk.
So it's kind of just maturingand learning what is mission
critical, drop everything.
And what is, I see that and Iwill get to it when I can get to
(18:16):
it.
And when you also find peopleyou trust.
I have buddies at work that Ican call up and just say, I have
to tell you about my day.
because they understand.
My friends don't know whatclinical research is like, but
just listen to what happenedtoday and just venting.
And then I'm like, okay, thanks.
You know, how are you?
And that really helps evenremotely form those friendships
at work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
When you think about the stress, what is it that
actually keeps PMs up at night?
I'm hoping that every projectmanager that's listening feels
this answer and goes, yep,that's me.
So because you know this, butWhat is it that keeps PM set up?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
It depends.
There is no single answer forthat, right?
Depends what's going on in yourstudy.
So fundamentally, though, whatkeeps you up is, for me, is my
sponsor happy?
Am I doing things well?
Are we going to deliver thisstudy successfully?
And so it just depends on whereyou are in the study, but
fundamentally, It's the nightbefore I'm thinking, well, let's
(19:13):
say we're supposed to get ourfirst patient in tomorrow.
Well, then I'm worried, like,are they going to show up?
What if they don't?
And then if they don't, I got totell the sponsor they're not
there.
And then what are we going todo?
And you don't want to go downthat rabbit hole.
So it's understanding, dependingon the phase of the study you're
in.
what could happen.
And being proactive.
Be prepared.
As you experience more stressfultimes, you learn the best way to
(19:35):
address certain challenges thatwork for you.
They don't work for otherpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
I always think it's interesting, too, when you PM
earlier in your career, you seesomething and it's the first
time.
And then what's so interestingas a project manager is you see
so many trends.
I have seen this so many times.
I think even though it's not thenews you're looking for, it
means you've got to solutionsomething different.
Because you've seen it so manytimes, you're sort of mentality
coming in to solve that problemis, okay, seeing this, this is
(20:01):
what we need to do.
This is how we need to do it.
How do we go craft thissolution?
That just comes with experienceis how that expertise comes.
But on the flip side, so ifyou've got the low lows and the
stress part, which is part ofit, there are a lot of high
highs because when you're aproject manager, being the
coach, being the orchestratormeans that job where maybe you
don't get as much of theaccolades during the day.
(20:21):
But when you get to the bigmilestones, that's really proud
moments.
And some of the proudest momentsI had in my career where you
worked for six months and youmoved everything and then you
got an FPI the day before it wasdue.
I think for me, it was like thiscollective sigh of relief, like
you did it, right?
Because you want to win and youwant to help your sponsor do
(20:42):
that.
And so what are...
What are some of the bestpractices that you coach project
managers to do when they want tocongratulate people, they want
to acknowledge people, they wantto motivate team, maybe in the
day-to-day when it is stressful,but also when you get to these
larger milestones?
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Two different things that I think day-to-day
motivating people, my advice isto understand each individual's
worries, concerns, personalitytype.
Some people might be influencedby time off or stress.
I might be influenced bypositive praise, right?
Or it's just, you have to knowwhat motivates people.
(21:20):
Some people really wantrecognition.
For those individuals, it may becollectively to the team or
calling them out if they'vereally performed well.
So it's not, Becky did a goodjob.
It's Becky's team.
And these individuals reallywent above and beyond or came
through or were innovative orcame up with a solution.
So we achieved this goal.
(21:41):
And you should do that no matterwhat.
For some people, that's enoughmotivation.
But for others, in myexperience, it's offering them
opportunities to say, well,let's get through this and then
let's figure out how I can helpyou move up in your career let's
say or let me introduce you tosome additional people if you
want to learn about somethingbut it's being their sort of
(22:02):
mentor and partner andunderstanding what drives them
to do their job.
Sort of, it's hard.
A lot of companies also, I willsay, have like rewards programs,
especially big CROs where yougive like points and then you
can buy something or trade it infor some gear or a day off.
And so even some of that is, Ithink, really motivating.
(22:22):
And then kind of coming back tois the opportunities, figuring
out And this is if you're a linemanager or a project manager.
But what does your team want outof their CRO experience?
And is there any way you canhelp them?
And if you can't, maybe you canintroduce them to somebody who
can.
SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
I think for me, this principle of do for one what you
wish you could do for everybody.
And sometimes, and I think I wasfaulted at this as a project
manager.
Some would do a good job.
And I'm like, well, I need tomake sure I take care of the
team.
And so it was always the team.
But sometimes...
Becky Thompson did an awesomejob, and I really just need to
call out Becky Thompson.
How do PMs educate themselves?
(23:01):
If project managers are stressedout, but also have lots of
highs, and they're working toorchestrate this huge orchestra
thing, And they've got to focuson the sponsor and the vendor
and do all these other things.
How do they actually take timefor themselves?
And when they do, what do yourecommend they read or do to
educate to get sharper in theircraft?
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
First thing is it depends what type of learner you
are, right?
Because some people are going tobe readers.
Some people may not be.
But in general, stay on top ofindustry trends.
And that can be just as simpleas I get an email every morning
with kind of top news stories inthe industry.
And I try to read it.
Some days it's, you know, set upto sound down and I'm like, I
(23:45):
have so many emails.
But when I do have time, atleast scan it.
And when something isinteresting or relevant to you,
read about it.
I love TED Talks becausesometimes I get really tired of
reading.
Like your eyes are just tired.
You're at the computer all day.
So I also love like listening toTED Talks.
The other thing is I have becomeover time very keenly aware of
my strengths and weaknesses.
(24:05):
So when I was a project leader,I had to do that as well and
say, what do I need to learnmore about to be a better
project manager?
Maybe for somebody it'sfinancial acumen.
Maybe for somebody it'scommunicating with people.
They're great at their job, butthey're not really good at being
part of a team.
And so figure out what that isand either go to your manager or
(24:25):
a mentor or a colleague, figureout how you can get better in
that area.
And maybe it's shadowing aperson.
Maybe it's watching how they dotheir job.
Maybe there is a great book.
It just depends what thequestion is.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
One of the questions I would get all the time is very
similar is I'm really good atPM, but I want to learn how to
sell.
I want to learn how to market.
I want to learn how to be betterat social media, whatever that
thing is.
I created actually a thingcalled toolbox on my website and
I send students there all thetime to say, Hey, if you want
like assets here, they are.
And they're just, you know,reams of books and blogs and
(24:59):
YouTube videos that I foundhelpful because you're right.
When you're a project manager,you do so much.
You have to stop and think aboutyourself for a second and say,
how do I sharpen my skills howdo I get better and how do I
spend time learning it's reallyimportant talking about what's
trending too because I thinkit's interesting that you
mentioned that There's a lot oftrends going on in management in
(25:19):
general, in managing projects.
Clinical research is included inthat conversation, even though
there's a lot of niche skillsand capabilities needed to
manage a clinical trial as aproject manager.
You actually have to know howclinical trials work.
But you've got all thisinnovation happening in software
and all the integrations thatoccur now that weren't around
when we were PMs earlier in ourcareer.
(25:41):
You've got SaaS technologies,and now you've got AI.
Everybody's favorite topic.
You know, so how do PMs keep up?
And what I would say is how dothey keep up?
But how do they adapt to thesetools?
Because a lot of them areintended to do a lot of the
things that project managers do.
So how do they keep up?
But then how do they start toadapt?
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
It's a great question that comes up all the
time.
And at the CROs I've been at andat conferences, It's always
everybody's favorite questionbecause everybody loves AI.
My thing with AI in general isit's not going to replace the
project manager's job, but whatit's going to do is give you
tools in order to be moreeffective as a project manager.
(26:22):
So there's a lot of fear aroundAI.
I think as PMs or as CROorganizations, we are the
experts.
I know what it's like to managea project.
So I want to work with mycompany to tell them what
actually would help me be moreeffective because I know what
(26:43):
was maybe very manual or whatcould be optimized where you're
guessing and you're not gettingit right, but AI really could
help.
So I think it's exciting.
I think people are very nervousand change is hard.
And I mean, remember going frompaper CRFs to EDC and it was
like, Wow.
So it's coming.
We've got to embrace it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
One of the talk tracks I hear, again,
specifically around projectmanagement, is that these tools
should increase efficiency now.
And what does that mean?
It means we can take a PM andI'm making the numbers up.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
I know.
The
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
average PM manages two projects per FT.
Now they're four.
SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Whatever the number is.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:19):
If you hear that or if someone brings that up, Let's
just say from another CRO.
How do you address that?
How do you talk through thatwith somebody to make sure we're
thinking about the future andincorporating, but we're being
very measured about what'sactually achievable today?
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
The ELT boards can all get very, very excited
about, oh my gosh, we can havefewer people do more things.
That's good for business.
That's more revenue.
And that's great.
But it's being realistic aboutit.
How much time will these toolssave?
And it may not be that they'reactually reducing the amount of
work.
It may be that Thank you somuch.
(28:03):
To me, that's a slippery slope,and you have to really look at
what these new AI tools andtechnology is doing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
I got a similar question in project management
recently, and my answer was, howmany of your PMs are using
Copilot to write their meetingminutes?
And the person said, what'sCopilot?
And I went, okay, so here's whatwe're going to do.
Let's just start with using AIto draft meeting minutes.
Let's just get started, and thenwe'll figure it out.
But if you're so early in thatyou haven't started to draft
(28:32):
meetings, meeting minutes, youprobably have a long way to go
to figure out how this is goingto increase capacity in your
study.
SPEAKER_00 (28:38):
For all the project leaders listening, in my mind,
the most practical ways today AIis going to help them do their
jobs is things like meetingminutes, slides, but it's also
figuring out tools.
I've heard a lot about how it ishelping write trip reports for
CRAs more faster, moreeffectively, more efficiently.
Well, that's great.
(28:59):
And where I think the two placesI'm most excited about Thinking
back to just being kept up atnight as a PL is better
forecasting and optimizingrecruitment.
So you have better, morerealistic timelines for how
you're going to enroll a trial.
And then it's investigator grantplanning and financial
forecasting, things that won'tnecessarily save time, but
(29:21):
they'll make your project moresuccessful.
And then resource planning is abig one.
But those are very small placesto start a tangible, real,
achievable project.
goals we could get to.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
There's no doubt.
that these tools, that thesefeatures can make people more
efficient.
But like everything else intechnology, right?
Like what I learned intechnology is you can build the
greatest, simplest, most easiestto use technology that the
button says next.
You are still going to have totrain people, advocate and help
them adopt to make things work.
And that's no different thanproject managers.
(29:55):
Even though I would tell you, Ithink some PMs are some of the
best learners and implementersand people that scale things.
There is still a lot to be donehere.
And a trend to definitely keepan eye on you've seen the market
at the top you've seen themarket in the middle you've seen
the market at the bottom youknow just like everything else
that's cyclical we're in achallenging unique time in our
(30:15):
industry today as we record thisin clinical research if you have
somebody that's earlier in theircareer early in a project
management role they haveeverything we've talked about
today sitting on their right andon their left shoulder and then
you say hey let's add marketcomplexity and challenges on top
of that what do you tell anindividual like that about how
to really have grit and dig into really think differently in
(30:39):
phases like this in the marketwe're having.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
It's really tough, but we've been there.
And first is it's cyclical.
So know that it will get betterand it will happen.
go down and up and down.
So just take a breath and knowwe will come out of this.
You know, we can't predict thefuture.
Maybe AI knows.
But in the meantime, I thinkit's actually there's going to
be so much opportunity foryounger individuals starting out
(31:02):
their career for so manyreasons.
First of all, hang in there.
It may be tough.
You may be asked to do thingsthat aren't typically your job
because it's all hands on deckto be successful.
Say yes.
Say, how can I help?
jump in, do whatever you can,even if it means you're maybe
doing the role of a clinicalteam member, but you're helping.
Be that person that says she'swilling or he's willing to do
(31:26):
anything.
That's going to help with yourreputation.
And then be patient.
In the downtime, read books, TEDTalks, whatever.
Stay engaged in what's going onin the industry.
But in six to nine months,there's going to be more
opportunities as we come out ofthis.
So keep networking and learningso that when openings come up,
people are going to say, well, Iknow that person.
(31:48):
They are willing to put in theeffort.
They could be great at this job.
I think it's a It's scary, butit's also a very exciting time
for people earlier on in theircareers because the
opportunities are coming andthere's going to be a lot of
them.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Becky, thanks so much.
Thanks for spending time todayto talk about project
management.
When I look at everything we'retrying to do at Inclusion
Criteria, everything we'rethinking about in the market
from helping people in theircareers to keeping up with
trends to connecting withexperts so we can learn from
them, you've really helped us dothat today.
If someone wants to connect withyou, and ask you questions or
just learn more, what's the bestway to reach you?
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
LinkedIn.
Message me on LinkedIn.
I will get back to you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Becky, thanks so much.
And we'll talk to you againsoon.
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