February 26, 2025 • 48 mins
Hey everyone, Colette and Laura here! This week, we’re diving deep into one of the biggest, most emotionally loaded topics: What makes a good mother? If you’re a parent (or ever had one), you’ve likely asked yourself this question in some form—whether it’s self-reflection, societal pressure, or those internalized voices from childhood.
We unpack the emotional complexities of motherhood, the impact of attachment, and how our childhood experiences shape the way we parent. Plus, we dive into the wild case of Ruby Franke—the “mommy blogger” turned convicted abuser—to contrast what real maternal love looks like versus performative parenting. We also get personal about our own mothering styles, the mistakes we’ve made, and the lessons we’ve learned. This episode is raw, honest, and full of insights that might just shift the way you think about motherhood.
Episode Highlights:
[0:02] – Kicking off the conversation: What really makes a “good mother”?
[1:44] – The constant self-questioning of moms: Am I doing this right?
[2:11] – The shocking case of Ruby Franke—what happens when motherhood is all about image and control.
[6:37] – How we model (or reject) our own mothers’ parenting styles.
[10:14] – One of the most critical traits of a good mom: Knowing where you end and your child begins.
[12:30] – The emotional burden some mothers put on their children (and how to break the cycle).
[15:29] – The role of discipline: Leading with warmth vs. using shame and control.
[21:10] – Parenting different personalities: How to adapt to your child’s unique needs.
[23:53] – Why the parent-child relationship is always top-down (yes, even when your kids are adults).
[31:15] – What our own kids say makes a good mom (these answers might surprise you!).
[36:35] – The lifelong impact of emotional safety and feeling unconditionally loved.
[42:42] – Why telling kids an age-appropriate truth is crucial for their stability and trust.
[46:24] – The viral “Door Holder #3” moment that perfectly captures great parenting.
Resources:
Door Holder Number 3 Video: https://youtube.com/shorts/T8AlmEjmtLU?si=1-eDTo6MSAesGgkj
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:02):
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. Today, we're talking
about what makes a good mother.
This is a big topic with a lotof emotional,
controversial opinions, nodoubt, and Laura and I have
really kept our own perspectivesclose to the vest, so you're
(00:26):
going to be hearing thisconversation unfold very
authentically and genuinely inreal time. Today, we want to
hear from you too, particularlyabout this. Email us at info, at
insights from the couch. Messageus on Instagram and let us know
what you think about motherhoodand what makes a good mother.
(00:47):
All right, let's get into it. Ican't even wait.
Laura Bowman (00:50):
Yes, I love this topic. I mean, particularly
because I think I certainlyfilter a lot of my experience
through this question of like,if I do X, am I being a good
mother when I make thisdecision, am I being a good
mother? And I hear clientstalking that way all the time,
(01:11):
like they're asking themselvesconstantly, am I being a good
Colette Fehr (01:16):
mother? You're asking yourself that constantly.
Laura Bowman (01:20):
I mean, I think I filter a lot of my choices
through that, like, not not thatparticular question, but like,
how does this choice impact myability to be a mother, and is
it negatively impacting it orpositively impacting it? So it's
definitely a counterpoint thatI'm bouncing off a lot. And I
care. I think, I think we allcare about being great moms,
Colette Fehr (01:44):
unless we're a virulent narcissist or
sociopath. Yes,
Laura Bowman (01:48):
I think even though I think even they want to
be considered mother
Colette Fehr (01:52):
considered different than being one. So I
have to on that point. I have tojump in as we get into this
topic and just say I am reading.
Do you know who Ruby Frank is,the mommy Yes, blogger, that's
going to jail.
Laura Bowman (02:08):
Yes, I saw her daughter get to an interview.
Okay,
Colette Fehr (02:11):
well, I want to hear about that because her
name's Sherry, and I think it'sFrank. I don't know if it's
Frank or Frankie. It's F, R, a,n, k, e. I was not really
familiar with this story, buther daughter, Sherry, the eldest
daughter of, I think six kids,has written a memoir, memoir
experience. I'm halfway throughit. So the timing of this
(02:32):
episode is so interestingbecause Ruby Frank is the
antithesis of a good mother.
First of all, she is clearlyextremely mentally ill, this
woman and either a narcissist,sociopath, both. I don't even
care about being delicate, aboutnot diagnosing somebody I've
never met. She's just anabhorrent person. She abuses her
(02:53):
kids. And, you know, I don'twant to give spoilers to anyone
who might be interested inreading the book. It's so well
written, it's less about thedetails of the abuse at least so
far, and more about the innerlandscape of this woman, Sherry,
and what she went through havingthis mother who was so
(03:15):
withholding and judgmental andall about image, long before
they had this video blog. So letme just give a couple details to
frame this. Basically, they'restrict Mormons in Utah. They
live near Provo Utah, and theparents met in college. Both of
(03:37):
the parents were strict Mormons.
They met in college. They gotmarried a couple weeks later,
Ruby, the mother, had a couplekids by the time she was 21
years old, and she started bygetting her daughter up every
morning at age five, everymorning at 6am and making her
(03:59):
sit in front of the piano andplay and have a smile on her
face. If she didn't have theright expression, she'd be
smacked across the face. Okay,so that just gives you a little
flavor for the kind ofenvironment. And there's this
one moment where Sherry, thedaughter, says she's writing in
her journal, and she's trying tocome to terms with, how do I I
(04:23):
know what I have to do tosurvive this environment, which
is to say nothing, do what makesmy mother happy, right? And so
many of our clients have lesserversions of this dynamic that we
hear about in therapy, or thesame kind of version, but then
reconciling This doesn't feelright. And one day she's writing
in her journal, and she says, Irealize I don't think my mother
(04:47):
loves me. Yeah, at about 11years old,
Laura Bowman (04:52):
and so she's writing that at 11, she has that
realization, yeah,
Colette Fehr (04:56):
yeah. And you know, she was right in this
case, the. Woman. It doesn'tsound like this woman is capable
of love, but yet she built hercareer, and they built riches
off of being a mommy blogger,and they called it passenger aid
or eight, passenger, eight,passenger, I think, meaning the
(05:18):
two parents and the six kids,and this woman, Ruby, built an
image of this beautiful, perfectlife, raising her children
Mormon, doing everything justright, being a real mom, and it
was all performative and allbullshit while she was abusing
the kids. And at some point, shegot involved with a licensed
(05:39):
therapist named So, creepy.
Laura Bowman (05:41):
Yeah, were they, like, romantically involved, or,
like, what was the story there?
I
Colette Fehr (05:46):
think there might be something like that, but I
haven't gotten to that part yet.
But Jodi operated out of sort ofa cult mindset and really
brainwashed clients and startedto take control of the decisions
Ruby and her husband made withtheir kids, and so all these
punishments would be verypsychologically manipulative and
withholding, like you don't getfood unless you behave the right
(06:10):
way. Some of the kids werestarving. So it's it got really
extreme. It's a fascinatingstory, but it brings to mind
this as we're contemplating whatmakes a good mother. Some people
really don't have a good mother.
So how do we then learn how tobe as moms?
Laura Bowman (06:35):
I don't know. It's like a tough question. I
Colette Fehr (06:37):
mean, do you model your mothering after your
mother, or what you didn't likeabout your mother, or what you
you know, where do you get Doyou draw from society, both
Laura Bowman (06:49):
and right? Both, both and I mean, I just feel
like I've always had, like,strong instincts around this
stuff. Agreed, there's things mymother did really well that I
thought, like I'm taking thispart with me, and there are
things she didn't do so wellthat I thought, I'm never taking
this part with me. Yeah, I thinkI feel that way too. Yeah. And
(07:11):
I'm pretty like, good atdiscerning that in my own gut.
But I don't think everybody is.
I mean, I know people aren't.
Colette Fehr (07:19):
I do hear a lot of people say like, Oh, does that
make me a bad mom? You know, Idon't have that because I don't
think I tend to be that litmessy, according to society in
general. I think I operate outof my own instincts, and I feel
like a part I got right is theattachment piece in terms of
(07:41):
being responsive, nurturing,supportive, there for you kind
of responses. However, with anolder perspective, I realized
that, like at certain times,particularly going through my
divorce, there was a period thatI was very distracted and
(08:03):
stressed and I wasn't as presentas I should have been, and I've
had to talk that through with mykids, like their memory of that
time was not great, and so I'vetried to take accountability for
that, but also give myself gracearound I did the best I could at
the time. You know what? Ididn't do the best I could. I
did. Looking back, I wish I haddone some of that differently,
(08:25):
but I didn't know what I didn'tknow at that time, yeah?
Laura Bowman (08:30):
Or phases, like, really tax you too. I mean,
like, it's hard, yeah? I thinkthere's, like, a whole bunch of
different ways, different typesof moms. Like, there's so many,
like, I was not the logisticalmom. Like, I was the mom where,
like, we'd go for, like, a beachtrip, and my friends would show
up with like, coolers and likechanges of clothes, and, you
(08:55):
know, five different bottles ofsunscreen. And I'd like, roll up
with like, a bottle of sunscreenin my purse. And I was like,
clearly, like, didn't understandthe assignment, like I do. I
was, like, a little haphazardand stuff like that, I think.
And I think, oh, shit, I didn't,like, pack any food or and so I
(09:15):
think there's all differenttypes of, like, being a good
mom, but the core traits thebeating heart of what is really
a good mom comes down to thatattachment piece that you're
talking about. Like, it doesn'tmatter what you're about, but if
you have a couple of those corepieces, I think you really and I
(09:35):
I wrote them down because I waslike, when I was thinking about
this, I was like, what do Ireally think if you pulled
everything away, is like thegood mom, and I think,
Colette Fehr (09:44):
okay for me, and then I'll tell you mine. Yeah, I
want to hear
Laura Bowman (09:47):
so the first one I have is knowing where the child,
where you end as a mom and thechild begins, and not like
reversing that frame at all,like where. It's like you think
you're in a your child is anextension of you, or your child
needs to take care of yourneeds, like you have a real firm
(10:08):
idea of like, this is me, thisis what I'm responsible for. And
they're their own unique being
Colette Fehr (10:14):
so important, so important. Don't we see that so
much in therapy, where peopleare trying to live vicariously
through their children,controlling their children,
Laura Bowman (10:25):
yes, yes, or just like, blended with their
children and they don't evenwant to be but, like, I've been
there in moments, but you got topull yourself out of that.
Colette Fehr (10:35):
We can all get blended in moments. But I'm
talking about people, because Ithink this goes hand in hand,
where they really their ego isinvested in their child's
accomplishments. It's not reallyabout the good of the child.
It's really about how thisreflects on me and what it says
about me, and they attempt tohyper control their children's
(10:57):
choices. Sometimes that comesfrom anxiety, but sometimes it
comes from an ego based need tobe in control and to see that
person as instead of a separateperson as a reflection of them.
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (11:12):
and that's that version, but also the the
child's there to care for, theparents needs. That version is
really gross, too. I agree. No,they like the guilt piece where
you're guilting your kid. Thechild is there to make sure that
you feel a certain way. That's
Colette Fehr (11:31):
the parents emotions. Yeah. And what I see
in therapy, and I know you dotoo, is women in their 30s, 40s,
50s and 60s who because of thatchildhood dynamic, even if they
intellectually see it for whatit is now, they really still
struggle to unblend and unhookfrom the guilt, right? Like I
(11:53):
have a client whose mother, thephone calls with her are so
absurd, the mother's always in atizzy. She wants to run all of
her emotions on, you know, it'slike a Drama Triangle, yeah,
where the mother is the victim,and she's an angry victim, and
she expects her daughter tolike, make her feel better, be a
(12:16):
constant, unequivocallyavailable sounding board for all
of this Mother's problems andneeds, and really doesn't have
any respect that this daughtermight have her own life, her own
fluctuating emotional bandwidth,nothing.
Laura Bowman (12:30):
Oh, I see that too, you know, and I think that
so in the in the inverse, thepeople who get this right and
understand that, like, I'mresponsible for myself, and my
child is my, their own person,and they're not responsible for
me. That, to me, is like, stepone, yeah, of like, good mother,
baseline. So I have two othersthat I think are core. I bet if
(12:54):
I thought about it longer, I'dprobably think of more. I think
that there's like, and you'vespoken about this is like when
your parent has genuineenthusiasm and curiosity for the
person that you are and the wayyou see the world, like, you
know you've said to me before,like, oh, you know my dad will
give me critical feedback, but Iknow he thinks I'm the best
(13:17):
thing since sliced bread. Yep,right. And it's like, when you
have that knowing that yourparent really sees you and
really values the way you seethe world and and it's just like
a felt sense of like, they getme, they're paying attention,
they're curious about me, andthey're just so fucking glad to
(13:40):
see me, yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:41):
and they support you, like, you know, your back,
Laura Bowman (13:45):
yes, yeah, yeah.
So that's two, yeah. And thenthree, I think, is, like, when
you're a real, like, good,sturdy, predictable leader, and
like, you don't rely on, like,authoritarian crap, like using
harshness, shame or criticism aslike tools for learning, you're
really using kindness and warmthto got to lead.
Colette Fehr (14:13):
I agree completely, and I think that,
you know, it is a parent'sresponsibility to teach children
how to be in the world and tohave some structure and
discipline. And that,admittedly, is not my strong
suit. It was a problem for me tobe divorced because I'm a very
laissez faire parent. I'm a verylaissez faire human. I didn't
(14:36):
have a very structured ordisciplined upbringing. In fact,
I don't know that I really hadany structure at all to my
childhood, and that worked greatfor me, but as a result, as a
mom, since I had my kids at ayoung age, and I got divorced at
a young age, I don't think I dida great job with the discipline
part, and I didn't have anotherperson there to provide that
(14:58):
however, where I'm. Going withall of this is that you can
discipline and give structurefrom a place of kindness, love,
encouragement, teaching, there'sno space for harshness,
exacting. You know, I don'tbelieve in corporal punishment,
and I I have to sit here oftenand listen to clients describe
(15:22):
it, and many of them are, arefans of it, and I respect that.
That's their view. But I don't,I don't
Laura Bowman (15:29):
think it works. I don't think it works. My mom is
a big fan of, like, pullingcontrol, like, I mean, I we had
an incident when she was downwhere my son, he is, like, a new
driver. He's been driving forprobably a year, and he is doing
a big project, and he took, hetook a friend and drove to
(15:51):
Jacksonville to go do aninterview. And like, I was like,
I did not feel comfortable withhim driving to Jacksonville
with, like, this kid in his car,just like, didn't feel right to
me, but he he did it anyway. Hedid it anyway, even though I was
like, take an Uber. I'll pay forthe Uber. Like, really film at
you driving. So my mom was herefor that incident. He comes
(16:13):
home, he gets home safely, andshe's like, well, what are you
going to do when he gets home? Isaid, I'm going to really talk
to him about, like, the choicehe made, because I didn't think
it was, like, a safe,responsible choice. She's like,
Well, are you gonna say, Hey,buddy, hand me the keys, like
she wanted me to, like, takecontrol and, like, one up him
and put him in his place. Yeah.
And I said, Mom, I don't thinkit works. Like, I don't parent
(16:37):
like that. And and I don'treally think it works. And those
were her instincts, you know,especially with my brother, to
go head to head with him all thetime. And it just, it really
like they just don't, they don'thave a relationship. And I think
it's because that instinct isbad. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (16:58):
yeah. I agree completely. And, you know, I
want to talk about some of thethe things that to add on to
yours, because I agree with allof yours, but this story that
you're telling makes me think ofalso another concept that I
think is important, which is,they talk about the right fit,
right? And I do EmotionallyFocused couples therapy. And so
(17:21):
couples come to me together forthe first intake session, and
then they each come inindividually, and I do more of
an attachment historyquestionnaire, my own version of
the adult attachment interview,which is an assessment, and it's
a lot about what was yourchildhood like? It's not about
blaming parents or hyperfocusing on the past. It's more
about understanding, what didyou learn about how to connect?
(17:45):
Were there people in your lifewho were there for you? Did you
learn to go to somebody as asource of comfort, or was there
no predictable, reliable,consistent adult available, and
so you had to learn to surviveby relying on yourself, tuning
out and dissociating whatever itmay be, not to mention abuse,
right? And we know that benignneglect, even in childhood, has
(18:10):
a powerful effect, and thatemotional neglect in childhood
can be even more painful anddamaging than physical abuse.
I'm not trying to minimizeeither. They're both horrible,
but there is this idea of likethe right fit when you learn to
do therapy from an attachmentperspective, I am a very
(18:30):
imaginative, emotionallysensitive, quirky little MF, er,
okay. I have stuff going on inmy head. Particulars. I'm
sensitive to my environment,like I was like this as a young
child. No one else in my familyis like this. If my parents
listen to this episode, theywill be laughing right now,
(18:52):
because I just had all theselittle quirks, like I made up
that I had seven sisters, and Iwould, I mean, I carried it
really far. I would pretend theywere in the house when friends
came over. I would make myparents lie so many different
things. I woke up every nightand went into my parents room.
There were elaborate rituals. SoI really believe if I had a
(19:15):
stern I know if I had the kindof stern parent who spanked or I
can't even imagine how my psychewould be like, I wouldn't have
been able to handle that, evenif it was responsibly rendered.
You know, I know my husbandwasn't like, beaten or anything,
but he was given the belt acouple times, and then he's
(19:36):
like, You didn't have to, youdidn't have to get the belt off
him, because the fact that youknew the belt could happen, you
know, kept you in line, right?
But for me, I'd be in atherapist office for 20 years
trying to, like, do EMDR, toprocess that trauma. So there is
something about you might have aparent that's like, great for
another kid, but isn't. A goodfit for you, and that's a big
(20:00):
part of being a mother, too. Areyou a great match for the
disposition of your child? Yeah,and that's I completely agree
with that, and there are someand, you know, I have three
different kids, and I feel likeI'm probably a better fit for
some of them than others. Butthen, then I also think that
it's beholden on the parent tofigure out the kid they have,
(20:24):
and parent the kid they have,totally agree, rather than the
kid that they like hope to have.
You know, can you get curiousand get to the level of the kid
that you actually and beflexible and be flexible and
adaptable, exactly? So I thinkthat's got to be on the list,
being flexible and adaptable tothe needs of your specific
(20:46):
child, right? Are they on theautism spectrum? Are they really
creative and sensitive? Are theysort of, you know, independent?
Do they not want to be touched?
Right? One of my kids. I'm veryaffectionate, and I want to,
like, hug my kids every fiveseconds. I have a kid who does
not want to be touched ever, youknow, and, and that may sound
Unknown (21:10):
like one of those, too.
And then I have, I have one kidwho only,
Laura Bowman (21:16):
the only way I can connect with him is by sitting
and tickling, like, ticklinghim, and that's the only time he
talks, yeah, and then the otherkid doesn't want to be touched.
But like, talks all the time,yeah. Like, you gotta, like,
know those you knowidiosyncratic things, and
respect them exactly,
Colette Fehr (21:34):
and and try to, because I do believe also, as we
get into my little list, thiswasn't on it, but I think this
is important to me, a parent,child relationship is always top
down forever, even when yourchild is an adult. I love this
part. Yes, it is your job as aparent to think of it doesn't
(21:54):
mean you're never gonna fuck up.
I'm not saying that, because,God knows, I've fucked up plenty
of times, but I've created arelationship with my daughters
that is secure. I believe theyknow they're loved, and they
feel comfortable telling mestuff about their life, and they
feel comfortable telling me whenI've hurt them or done something
they don't like, and I it is myjob as a parent, whether they're
(22:17):
2545 or 15, in my opinion, notto let them disrespect me, but
to listen to their emotionalexperience, how I have impacted
them. Doesn't matter what myintentions are. It's not my ego
that's on the line and my ideaof myself. It's my job to say,
tell me more about what youexperienced. I hear you. I get
(22:39):
it. I thank you for helping meunderstand what it's like in
your shoes when I did that. I'mso sorry that I hurt you. Let's
what can we learn from this? Howcan I do better? How can I be
there for you? There are thingsI have heard from my children
about their experience throughmy divorce, that in my opinion,
(23:02):
I'm just going to say this. I'mnot invalidating it. They don't
listen to my podcast, and I'vesaid this to them anyway, but
that I don't really that feelsso far fetched to me and feel
almost like what they've beenconditioned to believe I could
be wrong, but that's not what Itell them. What I tell them is
(23:23):
that was your experience. I hearyou. You know, I'm sorry that
even if I was working threejobs, which is what was going on
at one period of time, right,that they felt that I wasn't as
present as I could have been. SoI always think it's a parent's
job to remember you're theparent and I'm here to provide
(23:43):
unconditional love and support.
Because if you don't get thatfrom a mother who in the getting
it from Yeah,
Laura Bowman (23:53):
and I love that, you said it just like that.
Because I think a lot of peoplefeel like I'm the parent and I
deserve respect. And that's theframe that a lot of people go in
with, like, I deserve respect. Idon't want to hear anything
about myself that doesn't jivewith who I think I am. And
that's the frame they hold. Butthat's it. That's the one, and
(24:14):
that's goes back to beingproperly individuated, exactly,
and, yeah, holding the structure
Colette Fehr (24:20):
and individuation, for our listeners, is when you
have a strong sense of self asautonomous doesn't mean you're
not connected to other people,but you know where you end and
they begin. You don't put yourshit on other people. You don't
expect people to rescue you,enable. You manage your
(24:42):
emotions. You don't sit in avictim stance. You take an
empowered stance where you knowlife and your choices are your
responsibility.
Laura Bowman (24:52):
Yeah, lot of mothers drop the ball right
right here. Totally, totally.
Colette Fehr (24:56):
One thing I feel like I've done well is that. I
like, I don't put any of mystuff on my kids. I mean, I hope
they'd agree with that. I thinkthey would, but I don't. I'm not
living vicariously through them,and I don't feel like my parents
did that to me. So that'ssomething positive I've taken
from my childhood. But I want tosay a couple more. This goes
(25:17):
along the lines of this that twothings, and then I want to give
a shout out to Sue Johnson. Sofirst of all, I think that
acceptance, and we're talkingabout this through all of this,
but I think acceptance is one ofthe biggest prerequisites, not
(25:38):
to mention gifts you can giveyour child that you
fundamentally accept them forwho they are. And let's be
honest, we all have some ego. Weall have some desire. Some of it
is even just, I want certainthings for my kids because I
don't want them to suffer. It'snot about my ego. I just, I want
them to have a good life, butyou have to let your kids be who
(26:02):
they are, and really making achild feel accepted for their
personality, their clothingchoices, their life decisions.
And this goes along with lettingthem make mistakes. So this is
my second is not lettingchildren. Yes, you have to
(26:23):
parent, but I also think youhave to let children have some
natural consequences, and thisis what's getting lost in the
era of lawn mower and helicopterparenting. Is that over enabling
kids doing everything for them.
I mean, parents writing collegeapplications, parents obsessing
(26:43):
over where their kids go toschool, parents trying to
prevent their children frommaking mistakes. It's good
parenting, yeah, but
Laura Bowman (26:53):
that goes right back to not knowing where you
end and they begin. Like, it'sthe intolerance in the parents
body of like, not being a lotlike able to let that kit fail,
because then that feels like afailure for them, right?
Colette Fehr (27:06):
So I think it comes from three things, right?
I think it comes from that. Ithink sometimes it comes from,
like, ego and wanting certainthings that reflect well on you.
And I think sometimes it comesfrom just fear that, like, my
kids aren't going to be okay inthe world if I don't hyper
manage, yes.
Laura Bowman (27:23):
Oh, definitely, definitely. I agree. I agree.
Colette Fehr (27:27):
Yeah. So to me, those are really, really
important things, and where Ifeel like I've grown as a person
is that I didn't realize how,you know, I'm not a structured
person. My childhood was very myparents were separated for a
long time. Eventually divorced.
I floated back from one house tothe other. I did very well, like
that, you know, like I didn'tbother me at all to have two
(27:51):
houses. It didn't bother me tohave my parents separated. In
fact, I preferred it. I reallywhat bothered me was fighting
when that happened, it botheredme so to me, my parents
separated and feeling happier intheir lives. I thought that was
fine. I like to kind of floataround. My children didn't have
the same experience like they'veshared with me that it was
(28:14):
really hard on them to have to,like, pack their stuff and go
from house to house. And itsounds crazy now as years into
being a therapist and workingwith relationships that I was so
surprised by that I didn'tanticipate it because I didn't
experience it, right? So I alsothink part of being a good
parent is openness to learn asyou go and be constantly
(28:37):
evaluating and taking aninventory. You know, we all have
blind spots here. You have yourpersonality. You had your
experience. You don't know whatyou don't know. But being
willing to say, oh, you knowwhat, I didn't know that, right?
Sounds crazy that I might notknow that my kids didn't love
going back and I mean, I don'tknow that. I thought they loved
(28:58):
it, but it was, yeah, it didn'timpact them the same way it
impacted me. But being willingto say, Okay, I didn't know that
doesn't make me a bad mom. Butlike, what could I do to make
this better for them and be moreunderstanding and responsive?
Laura Bowman (29:16):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I am. Like, I even have blindspot. Well, we all have blind
spots, but my, one of mine, is Iwhen I'm thinking or I'm
worried, or I'm just, you know,in my head, I'm in my head a
lot, like I'm in my head a lotthat's just part of me. And I
can get quiet and sort of justnot ruminate, but I'm sorting in
(29:38):
my head, like, what I what Iwant to do. And that impacts my
kids, like they've given me thefeedback of, like, you know, and
when I can see them checking inon me, like, in a worried way,
I'm like, wow, whoa. Like, Idon't want them to be doing
that, you know. So I, I reallytry to, i. Be right up front
(29:59):
with like what's going on withme, because I don't want them to
all of a sudden feel like theyneed to take care of me, or
wonder if something's wrong, buttoo. But I'm oblivious to when I
get into that state. I can't seeit very well, but I can see it
reflected in them. So I switchgears pretty quickly, because I
don't want them to feel likethey need to take care of me.
Colette Fehr (30:22):
No, I think this goes back to what we're saying,
right? It's a parent top downthing. I don't want that either,
and it's beautiful that yourkids will tell you that and then
you course correct. I mean, Ithink that's being a good mom.
It's not not making mistakes.
You're not even making amistake. You're just being you,
but it's being willing andavailable to assess yourself and
take feedback and say, Oh, Ijust like to be up in my head,
(30:47):
but it's impacting theserelationships that are important
to me. So let me course correctExactly.
Laura Bowman (30:55):
And I actually asked my kids what. I actually
asked my kids, what do you thinkmakes a good mom? Because I was
like, we're doing this episode.
You want to hear what my kidshad to say? Yes, well, my son
had a different feedback than mydaughter. One first thing he
said was safety, someone to goto. There's your attachment
frame.
Colette Fehr (31:15):
That's the Sue Johnson stuff. Yeah, that was
Laura Bowman (31:18):
his first instinct. I love that. Then the
second, this is such a boy,right? He said food security,
like, basically, just keepfeeding me and we'll be good,
Colette Fehr (31:30):
right? It's the child version of, feed me. Fuck
me. Flatter me. We talked about,like men want from their wives.
This
Laura Bowman (31:36):
is like, I think my son would be like, forever.
Just grateful if I just was,like, in the kitchen, right
Colette Fehr (31:42):
if you're emotionally available and
feeding him, Yes, I mean, thatcould be the, that could be the
like caption for a good mom,right there.
Laura Bowman (31:50):
Totally, just keep feeding me. And then he said,
then he, like, laughed, and he'slike, goods and services. Like,
he loves it. Like, when I makehis bed, he's an active service
guy. So like, if I'm just, like,literally barefoot in the
kitchen and cleaning. He's like,just happy. And he said, like
nesting, like that, we have likea safe nest. So I thought that
was, like, beautiful. I lovethat. And then he said, he said
(32:13):
these two things. He said amodel, he's like, I you know,
like somebody who models, like,a good weight, good stuff. And
then he said, a woman, a momthat feels good about herself, I
love that. I thought that wasreal. This is a 16 year old.
It's amazing, good observations.
And then my daughter said thatshe thought that the like real
core was stability andpredictability and modeling
(32:36):
emotional and physical health.
And she said, not a mom who putsherself first in a selfish way,
but a mom who put prioritizesher needs.
Colette Fehr (32:49):
I love it. It sounds like you're raising
really emotionally intelligent,healthy children. Those are
beautiful. I thought those werebeautiful. They are beautiful. I
know. I wish I asked mydaughters. I don't know what
they would say, but I do knowI've gotten feedback from them,
that they feel like I'm alwaysthere for them, that they can
tell me anything. I know whenthere's like a scared moment
(33:12):
where they're sad or hurting,I'm the first person they come
to. They have their friends callme. They'll call me on speaker
with I mean, I know part of itmaybe is because I'm a
therapist, but I also think it'sbeen that way forever, and I
know they don't worry about mein that way, like they are a
child. Should be free to focuson their own life. Obviously, if
(33:35):
I had a medical situation orsomething was wrong, they would
care and be supportive, but it'snot their job to go, oh my god,
Mom, are you okay? Or, you know,it's just to your point. You
want to be responsive to yourkids, yeah, yeah. And that's
like the Sue Johnson stuff. SoI'm glad you brought up
(33:57):
emotional safety, because that'sanother baseline given feeling
emotional safety with anyone, Imean, is a prerequisite, I
think, in relationship. But ifit's not there with a mother and
child, it's a really, reallyhard thing to overcome. You
(34:18):
shouldn't have to watch yourwords, worry if you make a
mistake, be thinking about howyour mother's evaluating. You
worry about performing orearning love. This is a big
thing. I see in therapy, peoplewho feel like they have to
achieve, meet standards to beloved. There is nothing more.
(34:42):
And I think studies show this,that when you have, this is the
Sue Johnson heart of it. I wasgoing to say a parent. She talks
about it in the sense ofrelationships. And you know, her
work is based on the pioneeringwork of Dr John Bowlby back in
the 40s, who first identity.
When infants are crying, right?
(35:04):
They need an adult to respond tothem. It's based on what she
calls a R, E, being accessible,responsive and engaged. And in
fact, mothers don't have tothere's a concept called the
good enough mother, and thatmeans that a mother doesn't have
to be perfect. Doesn't have torespond to every bid for
(35:25):
connection. In fact, that'simpossible, but mothers who are
responsive, most of the time,they're accessible, meaning I'm
here if you need me, oops, Iwasn't there. I repair with you,
and now I'm here, right? Theycreate a secure base, which is a
lot of what your son's talkingabout. And the concept of a
(35:45):
secure base means you, my mom,are a place. It's like home, you
know, station and space, right?
Like you you go, you check in,you get fed, you're heard,
you're loved, you're accepted,and that gives you the
confidence and security to goout and explore the world,
develop yourself and individuateand that responsiveness is when
(36:07):
I look at you with tears in myeyes, do you mirror back to me
that you're with me in thatexperience. You don't even have
to feel empathy. You just haveto be willing to be there, be
responsive to that emotion andbe engaged, right? Be present
most of the time, some of thetime, yes, yes, not perfect.
Laura Bowman (36:36):
No, no. Mother is going to be perfect. But I mean,
and this is like, as we're like,unpacking all of this, it occurs
to me that, like it's it'ssimple, but there's a lot to it,
in a way, and mothers are socritical for helping children
figure out what love is like andwhat their self worth is like,
yeah and yeah. When this goeswrong, it can be very hard to
(37:01):
put it back together. This iswhat why people are in lifetimes
of therapy trying to feel likethey have to earn love or do
something in order to be loved,because they never felt
intrinsically loved or seen
Colette Fehr (37:15):
right? And people absolutely can and do triumph,
but, but it's a big wound. Andso I think what I'm trying to
impart right now is that, youknow, something I think my mom
did well, really well, wasletting me be me, you know, like
I Well, she didn't let me havelong hair when I was three, but
(37:38):
I then insisted on wearing pinkballet tights on my head so that
they could be a long hair,because she wouldn't let me have
long hair, and my besthysterical, yeah. And I wore it
everywhere I went, proudly inthe grocery store with this. And
then my aunt made me a hat, awool hat with long brown braids,
(38:01):
and I wore the hat in thesummertime, like with a bathing
suit at the pool, because Iwanted long hair. So, you know,
I was allowed to have my feisty,independent spirit, you know.
And I think along with that, andI always felt loved. I always
felt unconditionally loved, andI was always fed, I mean, and
(38:25):
taken care of and nurtured inthose ways. But I really think
for our listeners, the mostimportant thing, the heart of
everything we're talking about,is really being a safe,
accepting, emotionally engaged,soft place for your children to
land in the long run that isgoing to give them such a leg up
(38:49):
in life. There's actually plentyof room to make a lot of
mistakes.
Laura Bowman (38:53):
Yeah, if you get that part, and I think this is
where the part where I think alot of parents screw up a little
bit, is that there's so manyaccouterments in our culture for
kids, right? Like, so, you know,you're raising your kids to play
sports and you're at every game,or you're, you know, traveling
with your like, this issomething my mother did really
well. Like, she was, she exposedus to a lot. She was a great,
(39:17):
like, educational mom, you know,she read us a lot of books. She
like, made education such a hugepriority. I mean, I went to, I
love, a bazillion Broadwayshows. Yeah, we were in Europe,
traveling around, watching,like, the passion play. And
overall, you know, and she was,like, she was just very
culturally astute, and she gaveus a lot of experiences. And yet
(39:43):
that does not take the place ofwhat we're talking about. You
can do all the things, and youcan think you're doing all the
things, but if you don't havethis attachment piece, this
basic, soft, trusting place tofollow. All where you're
accepting your kids and reallyshowing them I've got your back.
(40:05):
It doesn't matter how many booksyou read them or where you take
them on vacation. So like, let'snot put the cart before
Colette Fehr (40:15):
the horse, right?
And how you pack the beach bagwith the 8000 sun blocks and
activities and snacks and thebirthday parties. None of it
matters at the end of the day.
What creates a secure humanbeing and a successful adult is
being loved unconditionally,being imperfect and willing to
take accountability and beingthere like have your kids back.
(40:39):
Those things go a long way. YouI hear from people in therapy,
oh, you know, my parents, maybewe weren't the most emotionally
expressive household, andsometimes people are like, I'm
having to learn how to have thatlanguage now more as an adult,
but I always knew I was loved.
Yeah, there is no substitute forknowing that intrinsic, knowing
(41:01):
that, yeah, yeah. See later, youdon't right. And I see so many
parents with so much anxiety,and I relate to it, you know.
And I became a mom at 27 and Ihad postpartum anxiety and just
tremendous, like I felt like Ihad to do everything right to
the point of, did I do enoughmoments of brain stimulation?
(41:23):
And was she not? I mean, it wasso much pressure in the modern
parenting, and this is almost 24years ago. It's worse. Now. It's
worse, yeah, and I think thebasics of really being loving
loving and available are stayedthe
Laura Bowman (41:42):
same. Yeah, they're timeless, yeah. So put
most of your energy into this,the stuff we're talking about
today, the other I just want totag it on to the end, because I
think it's important, is to tellyour kids like an age
appropriate truth about what'sgoing on in the house? I think
there's a lot of like, secrecy,or like, parents want to protect
(42:05):
their kids from certain things,and I don't think you need to
editorialize on that. In fact, Idon't think it's your you should
you shouldn't do it, but they'rehigh. Don't, but don't lie. I
think there's such like, like, adestabilizing force that happens
when a kid can feel thatsomething is really wrong and
the parent isn't tellingeverything like a truth? Yeah,
(42:29):
that's not helpful, guys. Solike to the extent you can tell
some version of the truth that'sgonna make sense to your kids
and help them maintaincontinuity is really important.
Colette Fehr (42:43):
I agree. I'm glad you brought that up, because
it's actually psychologicallydamaging to invalidate the felt
sense of reality with pretendingeverything's hunky dory when a
child can clearly tell. Youknow, the biggest thing I see,
of course, is around divorce,separation, or parents going
through a rough period, don'tburden your child with the
(43:05):
details of their your marriage.
Of course, that's notappropriate and that's damaging.
But acknowledging like, hey, youknow, we're working through
like, a hard time, and there'snothing for you to worry about.
I'm the adult and I'm going tohandle it and I'm okay. It's
gotta also be frame, yes,keeping the frame of like, I'm
the grown up. I can handle it.
(43:25):
I'm fine, and you are free to bea kid. But yes, what you're
picking up on, that vibe, it'sreal. It's real here. Yep,
really important. So did wecover it today? You know what it
is like? Have you seen like, Iwish we could, like, put this
clip somewhere. Have you seenthat clip of that little kid who
(43:47):
comes into the car, he'sBritish, and he says, I've got
my part in the in the like, whatis it the Nativity? Have you
seen this? No. And the mom goes,Oh, what did you get? She goes,
I got a classic roll. And she'slike, You got a classic pot? Did
you? And he's like, yes. Andthen she says, Are you Joseph?
(44:09):
And he's like, no. She's like,Are you one of the three wise
men? And he goes, No. And she'slike, Well, tell me, what did
you get? And he goes, I'm doorholder number three, I'll be
holding doors. And right away,
Laura Bowman (44:26):
this mom on cue, beautifully goes, Oh, fantastic.
Your door, holder number three,are you quite pleased then? And
he's like, yes, holding doors.
I'm gonna be wearing brown. Butlike, this parent got it so
right in that these momentswhere it was like she matched
(44:47):
her child's energy, she wasenthusiastic, she didn't come in
with, like, her pre preconceivednotions of, what do you mean?
You're freaking door holdernumber three, you. She was so
into her kid. I like, we need toput that somewhere, because it's
just a micro moment, yeah, ofhow to really be a safe place
(45:08):
for a kid.
Colette Fehr (45:12):
I it's beautiful.
I think we should link it in theshow notes. Do you have it? I
want to see it. I do. I'll sendit to you. See I was parented
like that, where my parents werealways excited, even if I had
the smallest and mostinconsequential role. And I feel
like I've parented like that somuch so that my kids are like,
Oh my god, Mom, you're like, soexcited, and we, like, just
walked across the street, youknow? But you know what? I'd
(45:35):
rather err on that side. And Ijust want to concede that if you
weren't parented that way,that's very easy for me and
instinctive, but because I wasparented that way, and if you
had the kind of parent was,like, what? You're the door
holder, you're not Jesus, babyJesus, like,
Laura Bowman (45:55):
who I need to call, right?
Colette Fehr (45:57):
Like, what the heck happened? And you should
have been, and there are,there's a lot of that. So if you
didn't have that modeled foryou, your instinct might be to
be like, Wait, who got Josephright?
Laura Bowman (46:10):
Yeah, who did they that kid? Not that kid, right?
But if your
Colette Fehr (46:14):
kid's like, I'm an Nativity and I am a piece of
straw on the floor that the muleis shitting on in the manger. Be
excited. You
Laura Bowman (46:25):
know, it was like, literally, my daughter's
experience, she was like the assof the dragon in the play, like
she was, she was the ass of thedragon, but you're
Colette Fehr (46:34):
excited for her.
And that's what parenting isabout. Life is hard and cruel,
and there is so much fucked upshit going on out there be a
safe place. That's a safe
Laura Bowman (46:44):
place. That's it.
I think we did it today. All
Colette Fehr (46:49):
right, I it was fun to talk about. I have to
say, if I became a mom at 51 Ifeel like I would be in such a
different place to be morepatient and more wise, but
that's not the way it goes.
You're glad I did
Laura Bowman (47:04):
it when I was I made, I made mistakes. I think
I'm a better mother now, Me too.
Me too. Yeah, I definitelybetter not mother now, but I do
not have the energy. I mean,parenting three kids like just
about I'm not saying that inthis phase.
Colette Fehr (47:20):
I think babies are adorable. I want absolutely
nothing to do with it.
Laura Bowman (47:24):
Same, same. Be cute over
Colette Fehr (47:27):
there. Yeah. All right, thanks guys for
listening. Please let us knowwhat you think, if you have
comments, if you disagree withus, we want to hear it all.
Insights from the couch.org.
Info at insights from thecouch.org. Is our email insights
from the couch.org. Is ourwebsite. Drop us a line, send in
your questions. We'd love tohear from you, and thanks for
(47:50):
listening to another episode ofinsights from the couch. We will
see you next time bye, guys, you
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. Today, we're talking
about what makes a good mother.
This is a big topic with a lotof emotional,
controversial opinions, nodoubt, and Laura and I have
really kept our own perspectivesclose to the vest, so you're
(00:26):
going to be hearing thisconversation unfold very
authentically and genuinely inreal time. Today, we want to
hear from you too, particularlyabout this. Email us at info, at
insights from the couch. Messageus on Instagram and let us know
what you think about motherhoodand what makes a good mother.
(00:47):
All right, let's get into it. Ican't even wait.
Laura Bowman (00:50):
Yes, I love this topic. I mean, particularly
because I think I certainlyfilter a lot of my experience
through this question of like,if I do X, am I being a good
mother when I make thisdecision, am I being a good
mother? And I hear clientstalking that way all the time,
(01:11):
like they're asking themselvesconstantly, am I being a good
Colette Fehr (01:16):
mother? You're asking yourself that constantly.
Laura Bowman (01:20):
I mean, I think I filter a lot of my choices
through that, like, not not thatparticular question, but like,
how does this choice impact myability to be a mother, and is
it negatively impacting it orpositively impacting it? So it's
definitely a counterpoint thatI'm bouncing off a lot. And I
care. I think, I think we allcare about being great moms,
Colette Fehr (01:44):
unless we're a virulent narcissist or
sociopath. Yes,
Laura Bowman (01:48):
I think even though I think even they want to
be considered mother
Colette Fehr (01:52):
considered different than being one. So I
have to on that point. I have tojump in as we get into this
topic and just say I am reading.
Do you know who Ruby Frank is,the mommy Yes, blogger, that's
going to jail.
Laura Bowman (02:08):
Yes, I saw her daughter get to an interview.
Okay,
Colette Fehr (02:11):
well, I want to hear about that because her
name's Sherry, and I think it'sFrank. I don't know if it's
Frank or Frankie. It's F, R, a,n, k, e. I was not really
familiar with this story, buther daughter, Sherry, the eldest
daughter of, I think six kids,has written a memoir, memoir
experience. I'm halfway throughit. So the timing of this
(02:32):
episode is so interestingbecause Ruby Frank is the
antithesis of a good mother.
First of all, she is clearlyextremely mentally ill, this
woman and either a narcissist,sociopath, both. I don't even
care about being delicate, aboutnot diagnosing somebody I've
never met. She's just anabhorrent person. She abuses her
(02:53):
kids. And, you know, I don'twant to give spoilers to anyone
who might be interested inreading the book. It's so well
written, it's less about thedetails of the abuse at least so
far, and more about the innerlandscape of this woman, Sherry,
and what she went through havingthis mother who was so
(03:15):
withholding and judgmental andall about image, long before
they had this video blog. So letme just give a couple details to
frame this. Basically, they'restrict Mormons in Utah. They
live near Provo Utah, and theparents met in college. Both of
(03:37):
the parents were strict Mormons.
They met in college. They gotmarried a couple weeks later,
Ruby, the mother, had a couplekids by the time she was 21
years old, and she started bygetting her daughter up every
morning at age five, everymorning at 6am and making her
(03:59):
sit in front of the piano andplay and have a smile on her
face. If she didn't have theright expression, she'd be
smacked across the face. Okay,so that just gives you a little
flavor for the kind ofenvironment. And there's this
one moment where Sherry, thedaughter, says she's writing in
her journal, and she's trying tocome to terms with, how do I I
(04:23):
know what I have to do tosurvive this environment, which
is to say nothing, do what makesmy mother happy, right? And so
many of our clients have lesserversions of this dynamic that we
hear about in therapy, or thesame kind of version, but then
reconciling This doesn't feelright. And one day she's writing
in her journal, and she says, Irealize I don't think my mother
(04:47):
loves me. Yeah, at about 11years old,
Laura Bowman (04:52):
and so she's writing that at 11, she has that
realization, yeah,
Colette Fehr (04:56):
yeah. And you know, she was right in this
case, the. Woman. It doesn'tsound like this woman is capable
of love, but yet she built hercareer, and they built riches
off of being a mommy blogger,and they called it passenger aid
or eight, passenger, eight,passenger, I think, meaning the
(05:18):
two parents and the six kids,and this woman, Ruby, built an
image of this beautiful, perfectlife, raising her children
Mormon, doing everything justright, being a real mom, and it
was all performative and allbullshit while she was abusing
the kids. And at some point, shegot involved with a licensed
(05:39):
therapist named So, creepy.
Laura Bowman (05:41):
Yeah, were they, like, romantically involved, or,
like, what was the story there?
I
Colette Fehr (05:46):
think there might be something like that, but I
haven't gotten to that part yet.
But Jodi operated out of sort ofa cult mindset and really
brainwashed clients and startedto take control of the decisions
Ruby and her husband made withtheir kids, and so all these
punishments would be verypsychologically manipulative and
withholding, like you don't getfood unless you behave the right
(06:10):
way. Some of the kids werestarving. So it's it got really
extreme. It's a fascinatingstory, but it brings to mind
this as we're contemplating whatmakes a good mother. Some people
really don't have a good mother.
So how do we then learn how tobe as moms?
Laura Bowman (06:35):
I don't know. It's like a tough question. I
Colette Fehr (06:37):
mean, do you model your mothering after your
mother, or what you didn't likeabout your mother, or what you
you know, where do you get Doyou draw from society, both
Laura Bowman (06:49):
and right? Both, both and I mean, I just feel
like I've always had, like,strong instincts around this
stuff. Agreed, there's things mymother did really well that I
thought, like I'm taking thispart with me, and there are
things she didn't do so wellthat I thought, I'm never taking
this part with me. Yeah, I thinkI feel that way too. Yeah. And
(07:11):
I'm pretty like, good atdiscerning that in my own gut.
But I don't think everybody is.
I mean, I know people aren't.
Colette Fehr (07:19):
I do hear a lot of people say like, Oh, does that
make me a bad mom? You know, Idon't have that because I don't
think I tend to be that litmessy, according to society in
general. I think I operate outof my own instincts, and I feel
like a part I got right is theattachment piece in terms of
(07:41):
being responsive, nurturing,supportive, there for you kind
of responses. However, with anolder perspective, I realized
that, like at certain times,particularly going through my
divorce, there was a period thatI was very distracted and
(08:03):
stressed and I wasn't as presentas I should have been, and I've
had to talk that through with mykids, like their memory of that
time was not great, and so I'vetried to take accountability for
that, but also give myself gracearound I did the best I could at
the time. You know what? Ididn't do the best I could. I
did. Looking back, I wish I haddone some of that differently,
(08:25):
but I didn't know what I didn'tknow at that time, yeah?
Laura Bowman (08:30):
Or phases, like, really tax you too. I mean,
like, it's hard, yeah? I thinkthere's, like, a whole bunch of
different ways, different typesof moms. Like, there's so many,
like, I was not the logisticalmom. Like, I was the mom where,
like, we'd go for, like, a beachtrip, and my friends would show
up with like, coolers and likechanges of clothes, and, you
(08:55):
know, five different bottles ofsunscreen. And I'd like, roll up
with like, a bottle of sunscreenin my purse. And I was like,
clearly, like, didn't understandthe assignment, like I do. I
was, like, a little haphazardand stuff like that, I think.
And I think, oh, shit, I didn't,like, pack any food or and so I
(09:15):
think there's all differenttypes of, like, being a good
mom, but the core traits thebeating heart of what is really
a good mom comes down to thatattachment piece that you're
talking about. Like, it doesn'tmatter what you're about, but if
you have a couple of those corepieces, I think you really and I
(09:35):
I wrote them down because I waslike, when I was thinking about
this, I was like, what do Ireally think if you pulled
everything away, is like thegood mom, and I think,
Colette Fehr (09:44):
okay for me, and then I'll tell you mine. Yeah, I
want to hear
Laura Bowman (09:47):
so the first one I have is knowing where the child,
where you end as a mom and thechild begins, and not like
reversing that frame at all,like where. It's like you think
you're in a your child is anextension of you, or your child
needs to take care of yourneeds, like you have a real firm
(10:08):
idea of like, this is me, thisis what I'm responsible for. And
they're their own unique being
Colette Fehr (10:14):
so important, so important. Don't we see that so
much in therapy, where peopleare trying to live vicariously
through their children,controlling their children,
Laura Bowman (10:25):
yes, yes, or just like, blended with their
children and they don't evenwant to be but, like, I've been
there in moments, but you got topull yourself out of that.
Colette Fehr (10:35):
We can all get blended in moments. But I'm
talking about people, because Ithink this goes hand in hand,
where they really their ego isinvested in their child's
accomplishments. It's not reallyabout the good of the child.
It's really about how thisreflects on me and what it says
about me, and they attempt tohyper control their children's
(10:57):
choices. Sometimes that comesfrom anxiety, but sometimes it
comes from an ego based need tobe in control and to see that
person as instead of a separateperson as a reflection of them.
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (11:12):
and that's that version, but also the the
child's there to care for, theparents needs. That version is
really gross, too. I agree. No,they like the guilt piece where
you're guilting your kid. Thechild is there to make sure that
you feel a certain way. That's
Colette Fehr (11:31):
the parents emotions. Yeah. And what I see
in therapy, and I know you dotoo, is women in their 30s, 40s,
50s and 60s who because of thatchildhood dynamic, even if they
intellectually see it for whatit is now, they really still
struggle to unblend and unhookfrom the guilt, right? Like I
(11:53):
have a client whose mother, thephone calls with her are so
absurd, the mother's always in atizzy. She wants to run all of
her emotions on, you know, it'slike a Drama Triangle, yeah,
where the mother is the victim,and she's an angry victim, and
she expects her daughter tolike, make her feel better, be a
(12:16):
constant, unequivocallyavailable sounding board for all
of this Mother's problems andneeds, and really doesn't have
any respect that this daughtermight have her own life, her own
fluctuating emotional bandwidth,nothing.
Laura Bowman (12:30):
Oh, I see that too, you know, and I think that
so in the in the inverse, thepeople who get this right and
understand that, like, I'mresponsible for myself, and my
child is my, their own person,and they're not responsible for
me. That, to me, is like, stepone, yeah, of like, good mother,
baseline. So I have two othersthat I think are core. I bet if
(12:54):
I thought about it longer, I'dprobably think of more. I think
that there's like, and you'vespoken about this is like when
your parent has genuineenthusiasm and curiosity for the
person that you are and the wayyou see the world, like, you
know you've said to me before,like, oh, you know my dad will
give me critical feedback, but Iknow he thinks I'm the best
(13:17):
thing since sliced bread. Yep,right. And it's like, when you
have that knowing that yourparent really sees you and
really values the way you seethe world and and it's just like
a felt sense of like, they getme, they're paying attention,
they're curious about me, andthey're just so fucking glad to
(13:40):
see me, yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:41):
and they support you, like, you know, your back,
Laura Bowman (13:45):
yes, yeah, yeah.
So that's two, yeah. And thenthree, I think, is, like, when
you're a real, like, good,sturdy, predictable leader, and
like, you don't rely on, like,authoritarian crap, like using
harshness, shame or criticism aslike tools for learning, you're
really using kindness and warmthto got to lead.
Colette Fehr (14:13):
I agree completely, and I think that,
you know, it is a parent'sresponsibility to teach children
how to be in the world and tohave some structure and
discipline. And that,admittedly, is not my strong
suit. It was a problem for me tobe divorced because I'm a very
laissez faire parent. I'm a verylaissez faire human. I didn't
(14:36):
have a very structured ordisciplined upbringing. In fact,
I don't know that I really hadany structure at all to my
childhood, and that worked greatfor me, but as a result, as a
mom, since I had my kids at ayoung age, and I got divorced at
a young age, I don't think I dida great job with the discipline
part, and I didn't have anotherperson there to provide that
(14:58):
however, where I'm. Going withall of this is that you can
discipline and give structurefrom a place of kindness, love,
encouragement, teaching, there'sno space for harshness,
exacting. You know, I don'tbelieve in corporal punishment,
and I I have to sit here oftenand listen to clients describe
(15:22):
it, and many of them are, arefans of it, and I respect that.
That's their view. But I don't,I don't
Laura Bowman (15:29):
think it works. I don't think it works. My mom is
a big fan of, like, pullingcontrol, like, I mean, I we had
an incident when she was downwhere my son, he is, like, a new
driver. He's been driving forprobably a year, and he is doing
a big project, and he took, hetook a friend and drove to
(15:51):
Jacksonville to go do aninterview. And like, I was like,
I did not feel comfortable withhim driving to Jacksonville
with, like, this kid in his car,just like, didn't feel right to
me, but he he did it anyway. Hedid it anyway, even though I was
like, take an Uber. I'll pay forthe Uber. Like, really film at
you driving. So my mom was herefor that incident. He comes
(16:13):
home, he gets home safely, andshe's like, well, what are you
going to do when he gets home? Isaid, I'm going to really talk
to him about, like, the choicehe made, because I didn't think
it was, like, a safe,responsible choice. She's like,
Well, are you gonna say, Hey,buddy, hand me the keys, like
she wanted me to, like, takecontrol and, like, one up him
and put him in his place. Yeah.
And I said, Mom, I don't thinkit works. Like, I don't parent
(16:37):
like that. And and I don'treally think it works. And those
were her instincts, you know,especially with my brother, to
go head to head with him all thetime. And it just, it really
like they just don't, they don'thave a relationship. And I think
it's because that instinct isbad. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (16:58):
yeah. I agree completely. And, you know, I
want to talk about some of thethe things that to add on to
yours, because I agree with allof yours, but this story that
you're telling makes me think ofalso another concept that I
think is important, which is,they talk about the right fit,
right? And I do EmotionallyFocused couples therapy. And so
(17:21):
couples come to me together forthe first intake session, and
then they each come inindividually, and I do more of
an attachment historyquestionnaire, my own version of
the adult attachment interview,which is an assessment, and it's
a lot about what was yourchildhood like? It's not about
blaming parents or hyperfocusing on the past. It's more
about understanding, what didyou learn about how to connect?
(17:45):
Were there people in your lifewho were there for you? Did you
learn to go to somebody as asource of comfort, or was there
no predictable, reliable,consistent adult available, and
so you had to learn to surviveby relying on yourself, tuning
out and dissociating whatever itmay be, not to mention abuse,
right? And we know that benignneglect, even in childhood, has
(18:10):
a powerful effect, and thatemotional neglect in childhood
can be even more painful anddamaging than physical abuse.
I'm not trying to minimizeeither. They're both horrible,
but there is this idea of likethe right fit when you learn to
do therapy from an attachmentperspective, I am a very
(18:30):
imaginative, emotionallysensitive, quirky little MF, er,
okay. I have stuff going on inmy head. Particulars. I'm
sensitive to my environment,like I was like this as a young
child. No one else in my familyis like this. If my parents
listen to this episode, theywill be laughing right now,
(18:52):
because I just had all theselittle quirks, like I made up
that I had seven sisters, and Iwould, I mean, I carried it
really far. I would pretend theywere in the house when friends
came over. I would make myparents lie so many different
things. I woke up every nightand went into my parents room.
There were elaborate rituals. SoI really believe if I had a
(19:15):
stern I know if I had the kindof stern parent who spanked or I
can't even imagine how my psychewould be like, I wouldn't have
been able to handle that, evenif it was responsibly rendered.
You know, I know my husbandwasn't like, beaten or anything,
but he was given the belt acouple times, and then he's
(19:36):
like, You didn't have to, youdidn't have to get the belt off
him, because the fact that youknew the belt could happen, you
know, kept you in line, right?
But for me, I'd be in atherapist office for 20 years
trying to, like, do EMDR, toprocess that trauma. So there is
something about you might have aparent that's like, great for
another kid, but isn't. A goodfit for you, and that's a big
(20:00):
part of being a mother, too. Areyou a great match for the
disposition of your child? Yeah,and that's I completely agree
with that, and there are someand, you know, I have three
different kids, and I feel likeI'm probably a better fit for
some of them than others. Butthen, then I also think that
it's beholden on the parent tofigure out the kid they have,
(20:24):
and parent the kid they have,totally agree, rather than the
kid that they like hope to have.
You know, can you get curiousand get to the level of the kid
that you actually and beflexible and be flexible and
adaptable, exactly? So I thinkthat's got to be on the list,
being flexible and adaptable tothe needs of your specific
(20:46):
child, right? Are they on theautism spectrum? Are they really
creative and sensitive? Are theysort of, you know, independent?
Do they not want to be touched?
Right? One of my kids. I'm veryaffectionate, and I want to,
like, hug my kids every fiveseconds. I have a kid who does
not want to be touched ever, youknow, and, and that may sound
Unknown (21:10):
like one of those, too.
And then I have, I have one kidwho only,
Laura Bowman (21:16):
the only way I can connect with him is by sitting
and tickling, like, ticklinghim, and that's the only time he
talks, yeah, and then the otherkid doesn't want to be touched.
But like, talks all the time,yeah. Like, you gotta, like,
know those you knowidiosyncratic things, and
respect them exactly,
Colette Fehr (21:34):
and and try to, because I do believe also, as we
get into my little list, thiswasn't on it, but I think this
is important to me, a parent,child relationship is always top
down forever, even when yourchild is an adult. I love this
part. Yes, it is your job as aparent to think of it doesn't
(21:54):
mean you're never gonna fuck up.
I'm not saying that, because,God knows, I've fucked up plenty
of times, but I've created arelationship with my daughters
that is secure. I believe theyknow they're loved, and they
feel comfortable telling mestuff about their life, and they
feel comfortable telling me whenI've hurt them or done something
they don't like, and I it is myjob as a parent, whether they're
(22:17):
2545 or 15, in my opinion, notto let them disrespect me, but
to listen to their emotionalexperience, how I have impacted
them. Doesn't matter what myintentions are. It's not my ego
that's on the line and my ideaof myself. It's my job to say,
tell me more about what youexperienced. I hear you. I get
(22:39):
it. I thank you for helping meunderstand what it's like in
your shoes when I did that. I'mso sorry that I hurt you. Let's
what can we learn from this? Howcan I do better? How can I be
there for you? There are thingsI have heard from my children
about their experience throughmy divorce, that in my opinion,
(23:02):
I'm just going to say this. I'mnot invalidating it. They don't
listen to my podcast, and I'vesaid this to them anyway, but
that I don't really that feelsso far fetched to me and feel
almost like what they've beenconditioned to believe I could
be wrong, but that's not what Itell them. What I tell them is
(23:23):
that was your experience. I hearyou. You know, I'm sorry that
even if I was working threejobs, which is what was going on
at one period of time, right,that they felt that I wasn't as
present as I could have been. SoI always think it's a parent's
job to remember you're theparent and I'm here to provide
(23:43):
unconditional love and support.
Because if you don't get thatfrom a mother who in the getting
it from Yeah,
Laura Bowman (23:53):
and I love that, you said it just like that.
Because I think a lot of peoplefeel like I'm the parent and I
deserve respect. And that's theframe that a lot of people go in
with, like, I deserve respect. Idon't want to hear anything
about myself that doesn't jivewith who I think I am. And
that's the frame they hold. Butthat's it. That's the one, and
(24:14):
that's goes back to beingproperly individuated, exactly,
and, yeah, holding the structure
Colette Fehr (24:20):
and individuation, for our listeners, is when you
have a strong sense of self asautonomous doesn't mean you're
not connected to other people,but you know where you end and
they begin. You don't put yourshit on other people. You don't
expect people to rescue you,enable. You manage your
(24:42):
emotions. You don't sit in avictim stance. You take an
empowered stance where you knowlife and your choices are your
responsibility.
Laura Bowman (24:52):
Yeah, lot of mothers drop the ball right
right here. Totally, totally.
Colette Fehr (24:56):
One thing I feel like I've done well is that. I
like, I don't put any of mystuff on my kids. I mean, I hope
they'd agree with that. I thinkthey would, but I don't. I'm not
living vicariously through them,and I don't feel like my parents
did that to me. So that'ssomething positive I've taken
from my childhood. But I want tosay a couple more. This goes
(25:17):
along the lines of this that twothings, and then I want to give
a shout out to Sue Johnson. Sofirst of all, I think that
acceptance, and we're talkingabout this through all of this,
but I think acceptance is one ofthe biggest prerequisites, not
(25:38):
to mention gifts you can giveyour child that you
fundamentally accept them forwho they are. And let's be
honest, we all have some ego. Weall have some desire. Some of it
is even just, I want certainthings for my kids because I
don't want them to suffer. It'snot about my ego. I just, I want
them to have a good life, butyou have to let your kids be who
(26:02):
they are, and really making achild feel accepted for their
personality, their clothingchoices, their life decisions.
And this goes along with lettingthem make mistakes. So this is
my second is not lettingchildren. Yes, you have to
(26:23):
parent, but I also think youhave to let children have some
natural consequences, and thisis what's getting lost in the
era of lawn mower and helicopterparenting. Is that over enabling
kids doing everything for them.
I mean, parents writing collegeapplications, parents obsessing
(26:43):
over where their kids go toschool, parents trying to
prevent their children frommaking mistakes. It's good
parenting, yeah, but
Laura Bowman (26:53):
that goes right back to not knowing where you
end and they begin. Like, it'sthe intolerance in the parents
body of like, not being a lotlike able to let that kit fail,
because then that feels like afailure for them, right?
Colette Fehr (27:06):
So I think it comes from three things, right?
I think it comes from that. Ithink sometimes it comes from,
like, ego and wanting certainthings that reflect well on you.
And I think sometimes it comesfrom just fear that, like, my
kids aren't going to be okay inthe world if I don't hyper
manage, yes.
Laura Bowman (27:23):
Oh, definitely, definitely. I agree. I agree.
Colette Fehr (27:27):
Yeah. So to me, those are really, really
important things, and where Ifeel like I've grown as a person
is that I didn't realize how,you know, I'm not a structured
person. My childhood was very myparents were separated for a
long time. Eventually divorced.
I floated back from one house tothe other. I did very well, like
that, you know, like I didn'tbother me at all to have two
(27:51):
houses. It didn't bother me tohave my parents separated. In
fact, I preferred it. I reallywhat bothered me was fighting
when that happened, it botheredme so to me, my parents
separated and feeling happier intheir lives. I thought that was
fine. I like to kind of floataround. My children didn't have
the same experience like they'veshared with me that it was
(28:14):
really hard on them to have to,like, pack their stuff and go
from house to house. And itsounds crazy now as years into
being a therapist and workingwith relationships that I was so
surprised by that I didn'tanticipate it because I didn't
experience it, right? So I alsothink part of being a good
parent is openness to learn asyou go and be constantly
(28:37):
evaluating and taking aninventory. You know, we all have
blind spots here. You have yourpersonality. You had your
experience. You don't know whatyou don't know. But being
willing to say, oh, you knowwhat, I didn't know that, right?
Sounds crazy that I might notknow that my kids didn't love
going back and I mean, I don'tknow that. I thought they loved
(28:58):
it, but it was, yeah, it didn'timpact them the same way it
impacted me. But being willingto say, Okay, I didn't know that
doesn't make me a bad mom. Butlike, what could I do to make
this better for them and be moreunderstanding and responsive?
Laura Bowman (29:16):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I am. Like, I even have blindspot. Well, we all have blind
spots, but my, one of mine, is Iwhen I'm thinking or I'm
worried, or I'm just, you know,in my head, I'm in my head a
lot, like I'm in my head a lotthat's just part of me. And I
can get quiet and sort of justnot ruminate, but I'm sorting in
(29:38):
my head, like, what I what Iwant to do. And that impacts my
kids, like they've given me thefeedback of, like, you know, and
when I can see them checking inon me, like, in a worried way,
I'm like, wow, whoa. Like, Idon't want them to be doing
that, you know. So I, I reallytry to, i. Be right up front
(29:59):
with like what's going on withme, because I don't want them to
all of a sudden feel like theyneed to take care of me, or
wonder if something's wrong, buttoo. But I'm oblivious to when I
get into that state. I can't seeit very well, but I can see it
reflected in them. So I switchgears pretty quickly, because I
don't want them to feel likethey need to take care of me.
Colette Fehr (30:22):
No, I think this goes back to what we're saying,
right? It's a parent top downthing. I don't want that either,
and it's beautiful that yourkids will tell you that and then
you course correct. I mean, Ithink that's being a good mom.
It's not not making mistakes.
You're not even making amistake. You're just being you,
but it's being willing andavailable to assess yourself and
take feedback and say, Oh, Ijust like to be up in my head,
(30:47):
but it's impacting theserelationships that are important
to me. So let me course correctExactly.
Laura Bowman (30:55):
And I actually asked my kids what. I actually
asked my kids, what do you thinkmakes a good mom? Because I was
like, we're doing this episode.
You want to hear what my kidshad to say? Yes, well, my son
had a different feedback than mydaughter. One first thing he
said was safety, someone to goto. There's your attachment
frame.
Colette Fehr (31:15):
That's the Sue Johnson stuff. Yeah, that was
Laura Bowman (31:18):
his first instinct. I love that. Then the
second, this is such a boy,right? He said food security,
like, basically, just keepfeeding me and we'll be good,
Colette Fehr (31:30):
right? It's the child version of, feed me. Fuck
me. Flatter me. We talked about,like men want from their wives.
This
Laura Bowman (31:36):
is like, I think my son would be like, forever.
Just grateful if I just was,like, in the kitchen, right
Colette Fehr (31:42):
if you're emotionally available and
feeding him, Yes, I mean, thatcould be the, that could be the
like caption for a good mom,right there.
Laura Bowman (31:50):
Totally, just keep feeding me. And then he said,
then he, like, laughed, and he'slike, goods and services. Like,
he loves it. Like, when I makehis bed, he's an active service
guy. So like, if I'm just, like,literally barefoot in the
kitchen and cleaning. He's like,just happy. And he said, like
nesting, like that, we have likea safe nest. So I thought that
was, like, beautiful. I lovethat. And then he said, he said
(32:13):
these two things. He said amodel, he's like, I you know,
like somebody who models, like,a good weight, good stuff. And
then he said, a woman, a momthat feels good about herself, I
love that. I thought that wasreal. This is a 16 year old.
It's amazing, good observations.
And then my daughter said thatshe thought that the like real
core was stability andpredictability and modeling
(32:36):
emotional and physical health.
And she said, not a mom who putsherself first in a selfish way,
but a mom who put prioritizesher needs.
Colette Fehr (32:49):
I love it. It sounds like you're raising
really emotionally intelligent,healthy children. Those are
beautiful. I thought those werebeautiful. They are beautiful. I
know. I wish I asked mydaughters. I don't know what
they would say, but I do knowI've gotten feedback from them,
that they feel like I'm alwaysthere for them, that they can
tell me anything. I know whenthere's like a scared moment
(33:12):
where they're sad or hurting,I'm the first person they come
to. They have their friends callme. They'll call me on speaker
with I mean, I know part of itmaybe is because I'm a
therapist, but I also think it'sbeen that way forever, and I
know they don't worry about mein that way, like they are a
child. Should be free to focuson their own life. Obviously, if
(33:35):
I had a medical situation orsomething was wrong, they would
care and be supportive, but it'snot their job to go, oh my god,
Mom, are you okay? Or, you know,it's just to your point. You
want to be responsive to yourkids, yeah, yeah. And that's
like the Sue Johnson stuff. SoI'm glad you brought up
(33:57):
emotional safety, because that'sanother baseline given feeling
emotional safety with anyone, Imean, is a prerequisite, I
think, in relationship. But ifit's not there with a mother and
child, it's a really, reallyhard thing to overcome. You
(34:18):
shouldn't have to watch yourwords, worry if you make a
mistake, be thinking about howyour mother's evaluating. You
worry about performing orearning love. This is a big
thing. I see in therapy, peoplewho feel like they have to
achieve, meet standards to beloved. There is nothing more.
(34:42):
And I think studies show this,that when you have, this is the
Sue Johnson heart of it. I wasgoing to say a parent. She talks
about it in the sense ofrelationships. And you know, her
work is based on the pioneeringwork of Dr John Bowlby back in
the 40s, who first identity.
When infants are crying, right?
(35:04):
They need an adult to respond tothem. It's based on what she
calls a R, E, being accessible,responsive and engaged. And in
fact, mothers don't have tothere's a concept called the
good enough mother, and thatmeans that a mother doesn't have
to be perfect. Doesn't have torespond to every bid for
(35:25):
connection. In fact, that'simpossible, but mothers who are
responsive, most of the time,they're accessible, meaning I'm
here if you need me, oops, Iwasn't there. I repair with you,
and now I'm here, right? Theycreate a secure base, which is a
lot of what your son's talkingabout. And the concept of a
(35:45):
secure base means you, my mom,are a place. It's like home, you
know, station and space, right?
Like you you go, you check in,you get fed, you're heard,
you're loved, you're accepted,and that gives you the
confidence and security to goout and explore the world,
develop yourself and individuateand that responsiveness is when
(36:07):
I look at you with tears in myeyes, do you mirror back to me
that you're with me in thatexperience. You don't even have
to feel empathy. You just haveto be willing to be there, be
responsive to that emotion andbe engaged, right? Be present
most of the time, some of thetime, yes, yes, not perfect.
Laura Bowman (36:36):
No, no. Mother is going to be perfect. But I mean,
and this is like, as we're like,unpacking all of this, it occurs
to me that, like it's it'ssimple, but there's a lot to it,
in a way, and mothers are socritical for helping children
figure out what love is like andwhat their self worth is like,
yeah and yeah. When this goeswrong, it can be very hard to
(37:01):
put it back together. This iswhat why people are in lifetimes
of therapy trying to feel likethey have to earn love or do
something in order to be loved,because they never felt
intrinsically loved or seen
Colette Fehr (37:15):
right? And people absolutely can and do triumph,
but, but it's a big wound. Andso I think what I'm trying to
impart right now is that, youknow, something I think my mom
did well, really well, wasletting me be me, you know, like
I Well, she didn't let me havelong hair when I was three, but
(37:38):
I then insisted on wearing pinkballet tights on my head so that
they could be a long hair,because she wouldn't let me have
long hair, and my besthysterical, yeah. And I wore it
everywhere I went, proudly inthe grocery store with this. And
then my aunt made me a hat, awool hat with long brown braids,
(38:01):
and I wore the hat in thesummertime, like with a bathing
suit at the pool, because Iwanted long hair. So, you know,
I was allowed to have my feisty,independent spirit, you know.
And I think along with that, andI always felt loved. I always
felt unconditionally loved, andI was always fed, I mean, and
(38:25):
taken care of and nurtured inthose ways. But I really think
for our listeners, the mostimportant thing, the heart of
everything we're talking about,is really being a safe,
accepting, emotionally engaged,soft place for your children to
land in the long run that isgoing to give them such a leg up
(38:49):
in life. There's actually plentyof room to make a lot of
mistakes.
Laura Bowman (38:53):
Yeah, if you get that part, and I think this is
where the part where I think alot of parents screw up a little
bit, is that there's so manyaccouterments in our culture for
kids, right? Like, so, you know,you're raising your kids to play
sports and you're at every game,or you're, you know, traveling
with your like, this issomething my mother did really
well. Like, she was, she exposedus to a lot. She was a great,
(39:17):
like, educational mom, you know,she read us a lot of books. She
like, made education such a hugepriority. I mean, I went to, I
love, a bazillion Broadwayshows. Yeah, we were in Europe,
traveling around, watching,like, the passion play. And
overall, you know, and she was,like, she was just very
culturally astute, and she gaveus a lot of experiences. And yet
(39:43):
that does not take the place ofwhat we're talking about. You
can do all the things, and youcan think you're doing all the
things, but if you don't havethis attachment piece, this
basic, soft, trusting place tofollow. All where you're
accepting your kids and reallyshowing them I've got your back.
(40:05):
It doesn't matter how many booksyou read them or where you take
them on vacation. So like, let'snot put the cart before
Colette Fehr (40:15):
the horse, right?
And how you pack the beach bagwith the 8000 sun blocks and
activities and snacks and thebirthday parties. None of it
matters at the end of the day.
What creates a secure humanbeing and a successful adult is
being loved unconditionally,being imperfect and willing to
take accountability and beingthere like have your kids back.
(40:39):
Those things go a long way. YouI hear from people in therapy,
oh, you know, my parents, maybewe weren't the most emotionally
expressive household, andsometimes people are like, I'm
having to learn how to have thatlanguage now more as an adult,
but I always knew I was loved.
Yeah, there is no substitute forknowing that intrinsic, knowing
(41:01):
that, yeah, yeah. See later, youdon't right. And I see so many
parents with so much anxiety,and I relate to it, you know.
And I became a mom at 27 and Ihad postpartum anxiety and just
tremendous, like I felt like Ihad to do everything right to
the point of, did I do enoughmoments of brain stimulation?
(41:23):
And was she not? I mean, it wasso much pressure in the modern
parenting, and this is almost 24years ago. It's worse. Now. It's
worse, yeah, and I think thebasics of really being loving
loving and available are stayedthe
Laura Bowman (41:42):
same. Yeah, they're timeless, yeah. So put
most of your energy into this,the stuff we're talking about
today, the other I just want totag it on to the end, because I
think it's important, is to tellyour kids like an age
appropriate truth about what'sgoing on in the house? I think
there's a lot of like, secrecy,or like, parents want to protect
(42:05):
their kids from certain things,and I don't think you need to
editorialize on that. In fact, Idon't think it's your you should
you shouldn't do it, but they'rehigh. Don't, but don't lie. I
think there's such like, like, adestabilizing force that happens
when a kid can feel thatsomething is really wrong and
the parent isn't tellingeverything like a truth? Yeah,
(42:29):
that's not helpful, guys. Solike to the extent you can tell
some version of the truth that'sgonna make sense to your kids
and help them maintaincontinuity is really important.
Colette Fehr (42:43):
I agree. I'm glad you brought that up, because
it's actually psychologicallydamaging to invalidate the felt
sense of reality with pretendingeverything's hunky dory when a
child can clearly tell. Youknow, the biggest thing I see,
of course, is around divorce,separation, or parents going
through a rough period, don'tburden your child with the
(43:05):
details of their your marriage.
Of course, that's notappropriate and that's damaging.
But acknowledging like, hey, youknow, we're working through
like, a hard time, and there'snothing for you to worry about.
I'm the adult and I'm going tohandle it and I'm okay. It's
gotta also be frame, yes,keeping the frame of like, I'm
the grown up. I can handle it.
(43:25):
I'm fine, and you are free to bea kid. But yes, what you're
picking up on, that vibe, it'sreal. It's real here. Yep,
really important. So did wecover it today? You know what it
is like? Have you seen like, Iwish we could, like, put this
clip somewhere. Have you seenthat clip of that little kid who
(43:47):
comes into the car, he'sBritish, and he says, I've got
my part in the in the like, whatis it the Nativity? Have you
seen this? No. And the mom goes,Oh, what did you get? She goes,
I got a classic roll. And she'slike, You got a classic pot? Did
you? And he's like, yes. Andthen she says, Are you Joseph?
(44:09):
And he's like, no. She's like,Are you one of the three wise
men? And he goes, No. And she'slike, Well, tell me, what did
you get? And he goes, I'm doorholder number three, I'll be
holding doors. And right away,
Laura Bowman (44:26):
this mom on cue, beautifully goes, Oh, fantastic.
Your door, holder number three,are you quite pleased then? And
he's like, yes, holding doors.
I'm gonna be wearing brown. Butlike, this parent got it so
right in that these momentswhere it was like she matched
(44:47):
her child's energy, she wasenthusiastic, she didn't come in
with, like, her pre preconceivednotions of, what do you mean?
You're freaking door holdernumber three, you. She was so
into her kid. I like, we need toput that somewhere, because it's
just a micro moment, yeah, ofhow to really be a safe place
(45:08):
for a kid.
Colette Fehr (45:12):
I it's beautiful.
I think we should link it in theshow notes. Do you have it? I
want to see it. I do. I'll sendit to you. See I was parented
like that, where my parents werealways excited, even if I had
the smallest and mostinconsequential role. And I feel
like I've parented like that somuch so that my kids are like,
Oh my god, Mom, you're like, soexcited, and we, like, just
walked across the street, youknow? But you know what? I'd
(45:35):
rather err on that side. And Ijust want to concede that if you
weren't parented that way,that's very easy for me and
instinctive, but because I wasparented that way, and if you
had the kind of parent was,like, what? You're the door
holder, you're not Jesus, babyJesus, like,
Laura Bowman (45:55):
who I need to call, right?
Colette Fehr (45:57):
Like, what the heck happened? And you should
have been, and there are,there's a lot of that. So if you
didn't have that modeled foryou, your instinct might be to
be like, Wait, who got Josephright?
Laura Bowman (46:10):
Yeah, who did they that kid? Not that kid, right?
But if your
Colette Fehr (46:14):
kid's like, I'm an Nativity and I am a piece of
straw on the floor that the muleis shitting on in the manger. Be
excited. You
Laura Bowman (46:25):
know, it was like, literally, my daughter's
experience, she was like the assof the dragon in the play, like
she was, she was the ass of thedragon, but you're
Colette Fehr (46:34):
excited for her.
And that's what parenting isabout. Life is hard and cruel,
and there is so much fucked upshit going on out there be a
safe place. That's a safe
Laura Bowman (46:44):
place. That's it.
I think we did it today. All
Colette Fehr (46:49):
right, I it was fun to talk about. I have to
say, if I became a mom at 51 Ifeel like I would be in such a
different place to be morepatient and more wise, but
that's not the way it goes.
You're glad I did
Laura Bowman (47:04):
it when I was I made, I made mistakes. I think
I'm a better mother now, Me too.
Me too. Yeah, I definitelybetter not mother now, but I do
not have the energy. I mean,parenting three kids like just
about I'm not saying that inthis phase.
Colette Fehr (47:20):
I think babies are adorable. I want absolutely
nothing to do with it.
Laura Bowman (47:24):
Same, same. Be cute over
Colette Fehr (47:27):
there. Yeah. All right, thanks guys for
listening. Please let us knowwhat you think, if you have
comments, if you disagree withus, we want to hear it all.
Insights from the couch.org.
Info at insights from thecouch.org. Is our email insights
from the couch.org. Is ourwebsite. Drop us a line, send in
your questions. We'd love tohear from you, and thanks for
(47:50):
listening to another episode ofinsights from the couch. We will
see you next time bye, guys, you
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