March 19, 2025 • 40 mins
Ever wondered how mindfulness, neuroscience, and therapy intersect to create profound healing? In this episode, we’re thrilled to chat with Natalie Baker, a licensed psychotherapist, meditation teacher, and Neurofeedback expert. Natalie shares how her unique blend of Eastern and Western psychology—alongside cutting-edge brain training techniques—helps people overcome anxiety, trauma, and other challenges. From rewiring the brain for resilience to cultivating self-awareness, Natalie’s holistic approach inspires balance and growth.
We dive into fascinating topics like neuroplasticity, how neurofeedback taps into your brain's natural ability to reset, and why meditation is more than just a stress-relief tool.
Episode Highlights:
[0:03] - Introducing Natalie Baker and her groundbreaking work in holistic healing.
[2:30] - How Natalie’s personal journey led her to integrate meditation and therapy.
[7:08] - Neurofeedback 101: What it is, how it works, and why it’s transformative.
[13:39] - A powerful story of trauma healing through Neurofeedback on a limbic level.
[20:52] - Breaking free from survival mode: practical applications of brain training.
[30:53] - Tapping into intuition through “First Thought, Best Thought” exercises.
[36:32] - Embracing meditation as a tool for self-awareness and emotional balance.
Resources:
- Natalie’s Neurofeedback Services: neurofeedbacktraining.com
- Buddhist Psychotherapy Practice: buddhistpsychotherapyny.com
- YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Neurofeedbacktraining
- 🔥Get Clear on What You Want in Your Sex Life: Free Download!
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
Natalie, welcome to insights from the couch. We
have another great episode foryou all today with Natalie
Baker, who is a licensedpsychotherapist, seasoned
meditation teacher and expertNeurofeedback trainer with more
than 25 years of experience. Shehas a private practice in New
York City where she combines thebest of Eastern and Western
(00:27):
psychology with cutting edgeneuroscience to help clients
achieve deep, lasting change.
And I think you work with peoplewith PTSD, trauma, anxiety,
depression, relationship issues,right? ADHD, yeah, am I getting
that right? Yep, the wholerange. The whole range. So this
is going to be great, becausethis is really a different take
(00:47):
on the from the type of therapyLaura and I do, and that you
specialize in integratingBuddhist psychology into
therapeutic practice, which I'mreally excited to hear about,
and empower individuals tonavigate life's challenges
through mindfulness, compassionand brain training techniques.
As a certified neuro optimaltrainer, you merge Neurofeedback
(01:11):
with extensive background andmeditation to support mental and
emotional well being, andNatalie's holistic approach
helps reduce anxiety, improverelationships and foster
personal growth, guiding peoplefrom all walks of life toward
balance and resilience. Wow,very impressive and very
exciting to hear more about.
(01:34):
Welcome Natalie,
Natalie Baker (01:36):
thank you, and I'm just so thrilled to be here
today having this conversationwith you too. I've really
enjoyed your podcast and thegenerosity that you have in
sharing your personal lives andreally normalizing, you know,
all the struggles that we gothrough in midlife. So thank
you. I'm
Colette Fehr (01:55):
really happy to be here. Oh, and thanks for saying
that too. That means a lot,because we have kind of put it
all out there, that's for sure,and then some. But it is so
important to normalize thatwe're all going through this
business of being humantogether. And so as we start to
talk about your expertise andthe way you help clients, you
(02:18):
know, for our listeners, can yougive us a little bit of insight
into how you got into thisspecialty and what drew you to
your particular form oftherapeutic magic?
Natalie Baker (02:30):
I really came about it very organically. When
I was 14 years old. I waswatching the Phil Donahue show.
Do you remember Phil? Yes, andhe brought on Transcendental
Meditation experts, and for somereason, that really piqued my
curiosity. And I was like,meditation, what is this? Yeah,
(02:55):
and so back then, there reallywasn't much around and so I had
my mom drive me to the TMcenter, and I went to their
introductory talk, and I waslike, wow, meditation, sounds so
cool, but this isn't for me. Myinterest in being a therapist
(03:16):
also started around that time. Ikind of grew up in a family
where my mom trained as a goodScandinavian Canadian farmer.
She learned like, you know, youjust got to repress it and get
by. And my poor father wastraumatized. His mother died
when he was six. He was bulliedby a step brother. His dad was
(03:39):
an alcoholic, and so he alsostuffed it. And just like as a
kid, I could feel his four yearold self and how much suffering
he had, yeah, and I justthought, like, you know what we
can do better than, like, notcommunicating, like it's really
okay. And so I just sort of veryorganically found myself
(04:04):
pursuing my meditation path. Ifound a Buddhist community when
I was in university, and justcontinued on my passion with
helping people communicatebetter, an undergraduate in
psychology, and then a Master'sin Counseling Psychology. And
just for whatever reason for me,those two pieces have always
(04:26):
been there. And then theneurofeedback piece kind of came
also very sort ofserendipitously. I was teaching
a meditation weekend, and one ofthe participants was in private
equity. And he said, Natalie,have you ever heard of
neurofeedback? I've been askedto fund this Peak Performance
(04:47):
Center in Manhattan. And I waslike, No, I've never heard of
that. And he said, well, ithelps that brain to not go into
like, anxiety and depression bylike, really, like talking to
the. Part. And I was like, wow,because, you know, as you two
probably are well aware, right?
Part of our challenge aspsychotherapists is to try to
(05:08):
figure out, how do we get thatbrain to stop doing that stress
response? I did Neurofeedback onmyself. I sent one of my really
traumatized clients to go tryit. She was also a yoga teacher,
and so she was very aware of herfelt experience. So I thought,
(05:28):
okay, she's would be a goodperson to go try it. The end of
the story is that I saw how whenyou give feedback to that limbic
brain in the present moment thatit's doing the wrong habitual
pattern, right? That fight,flight, freeze energy that brain
has the ability to take in thatinformation, if it's shown it,
(05:52):
and do something differently. Iknow you were talking to another
guest the other week aboutneuroplasticity, right? This is
the application of the principleof neuroplasticity, which you
know, really interestingly,dovetails into what the
foundation of Buddhism is, whichis that suffering is part of our
(06:15):
human condition. But it's not,you know, the only thing that
we're capable of that actuallywe have the seed of sanity
within us called Buddha nature,and that we have to allow
ourselves to reset out ofhabitual patterns and find that
(06:38):
basic goodness or that basicsanity that's present all the
time. So I thought it was reallycool that here this brain
training technology showed methat our brain actually
functions in alignment with thisidea in Buddhism, that there is
always the seed of sanity. Wejust have to find the skillful
(07:04):
means to access it, to access
Colette Fehr (07:08):
it. Okay, so, you know, just for listeners, in
terms of limbic brain, and, yes,right. So give us a little
primer, like I'm in fifth grade,on how Neurofeedback what it is
and how it works, because itsounds like this is a way that
we can interrupt our unconsciouspatterns and do something more
(07:31):
intentional, right, that we'renot powerless. We have more
control to design the way werespond to stress and life. So
how does neurofeedback? What isit and how does it work?
Natalie Baker (07:46):
Yeah, thanks for for backing me up here and and
giving that explanation,because, of course, it's new
technology, and also we neverthink about how the brain
functions, right, andspecifically how the unconscious
brain functions, right? We Wefocus on what we can do with our
(08:08):
willful selves when we're aware,right, which is our prefrontal
cortex, but we don't spend a lotof time thinking about all the
functions that the brainperforms outside of our
conscious awareness, right? AndI think that, in part, we don't
think about that because it'skind of produces a little bit of
(08:29):
anxiety, right? To think like,you know, there's all these
things that I'm doing, but who'sthe me that's doing it, right?
And so the limbic brain is partof that unconscious brain that
is our survival brain. So this,when you look at the evolution
(08:50):
of the brain, right? This ismore of the core brain, the
reptilian brain, and this is thepart of ourselves that keeps us
alive, what is considered athreat or what's dangerous. The
limbic brain defines that veryspecifically which is what's
going to cause me bodily harm inless than a minute, right? So I
(09:13):
need to punch it. I need to runfrom it. I need to play dead in
order to keep this body alive,right? So it has a very specific
purpose in our, you know, humanfunctioning, right now,
Colette Fehr (09:30):
survival, right?
That's all it cares about.
Exactly
Natalie Baker (09:35):
what we're doing with neurofeedback, we're
putting EEG sensors on the sideof the heads, right, and that's
collecting the electricalcommunication of the brain. So
the brain communicates throughelectricity and through
chemicals or neurotransmitters,and we're specifically measuring
the electrical communication ofthe brain, and the brain does a
(09:57):
certain kind of electrical danceto. Just before it's going into
a state change and performing afunction, and this Neurofeedback
technology reads your electricalcommunication 265 times per
second. Wow, that's how manydecisions your brain is making
(10:23):
in any moment again, just tohelp us appreciate, right? We
have the World Wide Web in ourheads.
Laura Bowman (10:33):
I'm just so curious, so like, I'm just
trying to envision this, becauseI've seen a little bit of
neurofeedback, but I'm not superfamiliar with it. So the client
sitting in a chair, they've gotEEG things linked up onto their
head. What are they watching?
Something that's giving them thefeedback, or like, what is
what's coming in that's givingthem feedback,
Natalie Baker (10:55):
because this system is working to show the
brain everything that it's doingin real time. It's constantly
giving feedback. And so Laura,your question of like, well, how
does the feedback get delivered?
So it with this system. It'sauditory feedback, because that
limbic brain uses auditory senseperception as its main way to
(11:19):
gather data about the presentmoment, because we're listening
even when we sleep, interesting.
And so what happens is, wheneveryour brain is going into a state
change and again, like 1000s ofthings it could be doing, not
just the things that we're likeconsciously doing, like having a
(11:42):
thought, or adjusting our bodyposture, just a lot of
unconscious decisions aregetting made, and in the
millisecond that that decisionis about to happen, there's
there's a state change, themusic is interrupted, and that
limbic brain is listening forchange. And so what happens is
(12:04):
that in the exact millisecondthe brain is going into a state
change, we're now telling it payattention, right? So the thing
about the other thing about thebrain, besides that, it wants to
use energy efficiently, it alsowants to make effective
decisions. And so the efficiencypart is that the brain goes on
(12:24):
autopilot. And this is posttraumatic stress. We take simple
cues from the environment, andwe go, Oh, now it's like, then
I'm going to scream at thatperson, right? Meanwhile, this
is a safe person standing infront of us. Why am I screaming
at my spouse, right? And that'sthat brain using a simple cue
(12:45):
going, Oh, love object. Oh,remember, you were traumatized
in childhood by that loveobject. Great. Now you're in a
dangerous situation. Scream.
Colette Fehr (12:55):
Use the same strategy that you use. Then,
instead of being able to keepyour brain open to taking in the
safety of the current situationand updating and integrating new
information, which is then whatthe neurofeedback is doing
right, letting your brain takethat moment before you go into
(13:16):
that behavior and incorporatethe New data so you can make a
different behavioral choice.
Laura Bowman (13:23):
Are you talking about as the therapist? Like,
are you talking with the clientand and kind of doing a little
bit of reprogramming, or is thisall happening the client, with
themselves and the feedback?
Like, I'm just give like, canyou ground it in the concrete?
Like, yeah, absolutely.
Colette Fehr (13:40):
Like, an example.
Yeah, the most
Natalie Baker (13:43):
profound part of this brain training, which is
that this, there's a changethat's going to happen over
time. And then I'll go into theexample. So what the brain is
learning when it's hooked up tothe system is it's being taught
all the good informations in thepresent moment come into the
present moment, assess yourcurrent needs, then make a
(14:05):
decision. So because the brainwants to make effective
decisions and use that energyefficiently, now it's motivated
to do this practice even whenit's not hooked up to the
system, right? So we're actuallyteaching it to function
differently over time. So now togo to an example, going back to
(14:27):
this client, who I invited orencouraged her to go out and try
it, when I was assessing whetherthis was going to be a good
tool, she had been abused as achild by sexually abused by a
neighbor, and also just reallyparents put her in a very unsafe
(14:48):
environment over and over again.
But one of her triggers, hertrauma triggers, was large men
being close to her on thesubway, and she would go into
the. Fight response. And boy,was she a fighter. I mean, she
actually got into fist fights onlike the subway. So she was
highly motivated to, you know,really help her brain learn
(15:10):
different strategies. And Ithink it was probably about a
month and a half into herNeurofeedback sessions, I think
she was doing twice weekly. Soabout 10 sessions in, she came
into therapy, and she said,Natalie, I had the most profound
experience. She said, I was on acrowded subway. This large man
(15:31):
came close to me, and instead ofgetting like upset and angry, I
noticed that my body took a deepbreath and just turned around,
and so I wasn't having to facehim anymore. And so that's a
great example of that limbicbrain making a different
(15:53):
decision in the present moment,which is, oh, this person is
safe, but I don't really want tobe looking at him, and so I'm
going to just pivot my body tolook somewhere else. And that is
the limbic brain deciding to dothat. Now, in terms of our
conscious selves, we we want tohave the motivation of
(16:16):
recognizing like, yeah, thatthat fight, flight, freeze
energy, that doesn't work forme, like, I don't want to do
that anymore, to live insurvival mode exactly, to be
like, I don't want thosestrategies. And this is a really
important thing when it comes toneurofeedback, because that
anxious fight flight energy isgoing to want to calm down.
(16:40):
We're going to want to regulate.
But the person who has toconsciously want to go there
they you know, like people whoare like, you know, my anxiety
really isn't working for me,like it doesn't provide me
anything, versus the person whosays, No, my anxiety is my mojo.
That's what gets me to do thingsand get things done. That latter
(17:02):
group that's like, no, I need myanxious Fight, Flight energy.
They tend to do about eightsessions of Neurofeedback and
then give it up, because that'swhen they really start to calm
down. And then they get nervousagain, because it's like, no, I
need that energy. So yourmindset is also a really
(17:23):
important part of the success ofneurofeedback training. So
talking about, you know, thatunconscious brain wanting to re
regulate, but then also asconsciously, also wanting to go
into regulation and live in thatplace. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (17:41):
I'm thinking of this client that I have who
she's so bright and wonderful,and she has developed in the
last 10 years like a terriblecase of anxiety around public
speaking. And she's a fantasticpublic speaker, which is the
absolute joke of the wholething, but she the limbic
(18:03):
reaction she has to nowspeaking, and she's tried all
these different things tomedicate it, and we've tried
exposure, but it's on thatlimbic level that she can, I
mean, she would be desperate torewire that, because
consciously, she's like, I am agreat speaker. I know I am. I
(18:24):
get great feedback about it, buton the body level, she cannot
control her reaction to it,right?
Colette Fehr (18:31):
But I wonder about that, because Laura, I relate to
that example a lot. And youknow, so many people have fear
of public speaking. Andconsciously, I enjoy public
speaking once I get started, Ithink I'm a decent public
speaker, but I do go into a lotof fear, and I think of that as
my innate survival wiring, thatI'm a very sensitively wired
(18:54):
person, and we are puttingourselves up in front of the
herd for judgment. So what I'mcurious about because I am
certified in EMDR, and I onlywork with couples now, so I
don't use it the way I used to,but EMDR, for listeners, is eye
movement desensitizationreprocessing, which sounds like
a bunch of gobbledygook, butit's basically using a machine
(19:16):
to move your eyes and alsotactile stimulation to help the
brain reprocess trauma and stuckpoints and kind of absorb what's
happened in the past and moveforward. So what I was going to
ask you is tying this back tofear of public speaking, even
though they say with EMDR, youcan use it for everything. I
(19:40):
have found anecdotally in yearsof using amdr that it works
better when there is a specificevent or series of events that
created the fight or flightreaction, as opposed to, I'm not
sure anything would work on mefor fear of public speaking,
because it's just my body. Sortof doing its thing, like I never
(20:01):
got up and gave a speech and hadtomatoes thrown at me or
something. So is Neurofeedbacklike that, where, if it's just
the way your your body's sort ofnatural states that it's may not
work as effectively as it doeswith like, a specific damaging
event.
Natalie Baker (20:18):
Yeah, it does make sense. And this is more
about allowing that brain to getinformation about itself so it
can decide whether it's overinvesting, we could say, right,
putting too much energy intothat reactive response. And
(20:42):
that's the key. It
Colette Fehr (20:43):
could, right, like, so, yeah, exactly. I could
do neurofeedback, and you couldhelp my brain learn that getting
up in front of an audience isn'tdoesn't mean I'm about to die
Natalie Baker (20:53):
exactly, because, I mean, that's the interesting
thing, is that we as socialbeings, right? That that
survival brain totally takes ourrelationships as the sort of
life threatening event, and Iput that in quotes, even though
(21:16):
I'm not going to die becausethat person didn't like what I
said in my talk, right? Butmeanwhile, you know, the body is
acting as if it's like gearingup to have to go to battle, you
know, for survival, exactly. Andso when the brain recognizes
that there's a safe environment,we're still going to have, you
know, a stress response, becausethat's a fundamental part of who
(21:39):
we are as humans, it's reallyabout is it? Is it at a level
that is inappropriate, given thecurrent circumstance, and each
brain decides what isappropriate. Which brings me to
another important point, whichis we all have ideas about how
(22:00):
we should be, and you know, howwe should feel, how we should
be. We usually don't questionour expectation about our
performance, but thatexpectation is also a big player
in whether or not we can reregulate, just in general, or
whether we get we stay in thatfight, flight, freeze, energy
(22:23):
and kind of continue to selfharass, right? The that fight
energy is then internalizedtowards ourselves, because we're
critical, right? We have anexpectation that we should be
over this, right, whatever thingit is that's coming up in
therapy, right? What's wrongwith me that I'm not over this,
(22:45):
right? And now we're recreatinga stress response, because it's
like, oh, there's a problem withme. Yeah? I
Laura Bowman (22:51):
mean, I do ifs, I don't know if you're familiar
with family systems, but it'sall about that, like, you know,
there's the protective partsfor, you know, and then there's
the people that even judge theprotective parts that you
shouldn't be protecting thatway. Or, you know, the critic.
There's a critic judging thecritic. You know, it's like a
meta thing. How are you dealingwith that? Through the neuro,
(23:12):
the neurofeedback model. What'sthe therapist role? Yeah,
Natalie Baker (23:16):
well, you know, the therapist role is really, I
mean, twofold. One is thatwhatever therapeutic techniques
that we want to use to help thatclient, you know, get combined
with the neurofeedback. And soreally, the neurofeedback is
that add on piece to help thatlimbic brain recognize the here
(23:39):
and now, right? Laura, like yousaid with your public speaking
client, right? It's like herconscious self is in a great
place, but that limbic brain isstill misfiring and
misperceiving. So theneurofeedback is really to help
that part. And then I find mysort of role as the therapist
(24:00):
when someone is doingneurofeedback is part
psychoeducation, right? So totalk about, you know,
expectation, because peoplethink in a linear way, right?
Which is, if something'spositive or something's going to
change in a positive way, it'sgoing to do so in a very
predictable, linear fashion, andthen I know I'm good to go,
(24:24):
right? But what is linear inlife? Nothing, right? Nothing
linear. Things are 100%predictable. And so that's the
way we spook ourselves right? Aswe have this linear expectation
of, if something's good, thenit's going to be in that way.
But the truth of life, andcertainly psychotherapy, is non
(24:47):
linear, and the brain is nonlinear, and this is a big piece
of education. I do for peoplewho are engaging in
neurofeedback, is becausethey'll then have a linear.
Expectation, right? So if I'manxious, then every day I'm
going to feel like 2% calmer,right? And then I know it's
(25:09):
working for me, right? And andwe can thank the pharmaceutical
industry a little bit for thisexpectation, right? There's
going to be this one thingthat's going to help us, and
it's going to help usimmediately, and we're going to
know it's helping us, but thebrain is a non linear change
agent, and so when someone isdoing Neurofeedback and is
anxious, they're going to startto feel, you know, depending on
(25:34):
who they are and how self aware,they might notice, oh, I'm
sleeping a little bit better.
Oh, I didn't get so anxiousabout that situation. So
there'll be things in theirconscious awareness they notice
shifting, and then they may havea day where they have, like, a
spike in anxiety, and then theygo, Oh, the neurofeedback is not
working, yeah. And so part of myjob is to help them understand,
(25:55):
like, no, that's not how wechange in a positive way, we
change in a non linear way, andso we have to bake into our
expectation, you know, thatwe're going to have those times
when we do still feel a littlebit of anxiety, or we feel a lot
of anxiety, depending on kind ofWhat our habitual neural
(26:17):
pathways are around states likeanxiousness, that doesn't mean
abandoned ship. Things are notworking, and so setting
appropriate expectations andthen really talking to people
about like, where do they wantto get to?
Laura Bowman (26:37):
But it's like a reprogramming that takes, like,
months and years to do. I have aclient who has bipolar disorder
and has gone sugar free and hasreally changed his life and has
really diversified hismicrobiome, and anytime he takes
a step back from that protocol,he has a resurgence of symptoms,
which is fascinating. That'sexactly me. I went
Colette Fehr (26:59):
a year of eating really, really clean, and I felt
kind of cured, like I remembersaying to my husband, oh my god,
it's 6 (27:09):
30pm and I've already eaten dinner. And guess what, I
have no desire to eat anythingelse. And I mean, I was eating
fish and vegetables and wholegrain and really nothing
refined. I wasn't drinking anyalcohol. It was pretty clean,
especially for me. And I didn'thave the same like I ate when I
(27:30):
was hungry and when I was full,it was over, but the minute I
got back into that food, it wentright back. Yeah, and,
Natalie Baker (27:39):
and that's one of the things we're learning is
that, you know, we're not reallyone person. We are a host of all
sorts of organisms that worktogether to produce this person
I call Natalie or Colette. Andwe don't really want to
acknowledge that, because it'skind of unsettling to think that
(27:59):
we're just this host for for allthese creatures that kind of
contribute to who we are. Butthe truth of the matter is that
you know we are, and therelationship between that gut
bacteria and how our brainfunctions, there was Laura.
There was a study that was justdone showing schizophrenics and
(28:21):
Bipolars who are put onbasically like a ketogenic diet,
which is like no carbs, right?
That they really theirfunctioning improves so much. So
we're learning about Wow, whenthough, for those particular
neurodivergent brains, right?
They function so much better onketones. And then the other
(28:45):
piece is inflammation, right?
Brain inflammation contributesto mental health symptoms,
right? And so we're learning somuch about mental health, the
brain, the gut. What
Laura Bowman (28:58):
I so appreciate about what you're saying,
Natalie, just in general, isthat you have, like, a curiosity
about what works for a client. Ithink it's so easy in our field
to get pigeonholed into like, Ido this thing, or I do EMDR, I
do ifs or and this is all I do.
But like, maintaining acuriosity about like, let's
follow the research. Let's seewhat works. Let's be open minded
(29:20):
to see, like, what's reallyeffective with clients. And so I
love that you pull from so manydifferent I mean, you have your
things, but you're looking atwhat really works.
Natalie Baker (29:32):
Yes, and also, you know, one of my training as
a as a Buddhist psychotherapist,is trusting that the client's
innate intelligence is alwaysaccessible if you provide the
space and the expectation forit. How many times a day do we
(29:57):
ask a client a question andthey. Habitually go, I don't
know, and then the conversationstops there, because they
believe that. And so part of mytraining is to help clients get
curious about what's on theother side of that, like, if we
didn't believe that habitual,just blurt, I don't know, right?
(30:21):
And instead, and so I I givepeople this practice to do, and
it's a practice. It takes timeto trust in this practice, but
it's called first thought, bestthought. And so I present a
question, and I say to them, Iwant your first thought answer.
Do not think about the answer.
Blurt it, and I'm going to tellyou nine times out of 10, it's
(30:44):
absolutely a piece ofinformation we need to take our
next baby step.
Colette Fehr (30:54):
You're helping them tap into their intuition.
Where, what is there that maynot be as conscious can become
more conscious and accessible.
Yes, wow. I love that. I lovethat
Natalie Baker (31:09):
way of doing it.
And, you know, some people can,you know, if people want to try
it at home, just write out whatlike, what the problem is. And
then just first thought answer,like, kind of like morning pages
for people who've done TheArtist's Way, just like, let
yourself just start writing.
Don't look at what you'rewriting. Don't look back. Just
(31:32):
write and then stop and look atwhat you've written again.
Another way to just start toaccess that basic intelligence
or that intuition that's alwaysthere, but we have a strong mind
habit of, I don't know,
Colette Fehr (31:50):
we're overthinking things to death, letting other
parts of self hijack us and talkus into these like competing
agendas that don't really serveus?
Laura Bowman (32:02):
Can we talk about meditation for a minute? Because
I'm assuming that meditation is,like something that enables this
voice to get even, like clearerand kind of come to the surface.
But the thing you hear intherapy all the time when you
suggest meditation, but I mean,what is the thing you always
hear from clients? Oh, I'm soterrible at that, oh, I suck at
meditation. Or, like, I hatethat. How do you deal with that?
(32:25):
And how do you integrate, like,sort of this eastern meditative
piece into your practice?
Natalie Baker (32:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, self criticism
is probably one of our strongesthabits and so, so what happens
in meditation practice is thatwe become more aware, and so we
become more aware of thatcritical voice. And so part of
how I address the whole thewhole statement of like, I'm a
(32:57):
bad meditator. I tried. Icouldn't do it. You know,
whatever the criticism is isreally to define what meditation
practice is and to set theappropriate expectation. So in
the tradition of meditation,mindfulness, awareness,
meditation that's been aroundfor like, 2600, years, right?
(33:19):
We've recently founded in mentalhealth, which is terrific, but
just as a reminder, like peoplehave been meditating for a long,
long, long, long time, I'll giveyou the traditional analogy of
why we meditate from a spiritualpoint of view, not from a Like I
want to improve x in myself, butfrom the like meditation as a
(33:45):
spiritual practice. So themetaphor is that there's the sun
in the sky and the sun in thesky is that basic sanity that we
were talking about, that basicgood intelligence, intuition,
which is clear, seeing, which isloving, which is fundamentally
not aggressive, right? And that,that is the nature of all
(34:07):
humans, that's the that's thesun in the sky. And then, like
any skyscape, we have clouds,and those clouds are our
thoughts, right? And clouds arenot solid, right? You go through
the clouds when you fly and youexperience that there, you look
at them and you think, Oh,that's a mass of clouds. They're
(34:29):
dark. They're going to rain onme, right? But really, they're
not solid. And that is ourthoughts. And we work with this
in mental health all the time,where we're trying to help our
clients experience that theirthoughts are not as solid,
they're not true, real andmeaningful in the way that we
experience them, but they'realso part of the landscape,
(34:52):
right? There's no world wherethere are no clouds, and so part
of the challenge of the cloudsis that they have. Secure our
ability to experience the sunand the warmth of the sun.
Meditation practice is not thatwe're going to somehow magically
remove all the clouds from thesky, because that's not reality.
(35:15):
Reality is that there areclouds. Sometimes they're cute
and fluffy, sometimes they'redark and like ominous, but
they're actually always movingright. They're never static. And
in the same way, when we'repracticing meditation, we're
practicing being present with,not changing something, being
(35:40):
present with and so that's a bigpart of the psycho education, is
that meditation practice, agreat meditation teacher, a
Tibetan teacher, once said, youknow, meditation is more of a
laxative rather than a sedative,but it's really not a tool for
(36:03):
us to be able to tolerate ouremotional experience, to know
ourselves, to live in our owntruth, to be in charge of our
choices we make moment tomoment. Right? It's about the
opposite. And as mental healthprofessionals, I just feel like
this is a big area of psychoeducation that's so important
(36:26):
because it does impact theirquality of life, their quality
of mental health, in
Colette Fehr (36:32):
such a profound way. So in terms of, you know, a
couple of takeaways for thelistener. It sounds like, first
of all that Neurofeedback may besomething a lot of our listeners
would want to look into. I mean,it's made me want to do it after
talking to you today, you know,and it sounds like it's
applicable to a whole range ofpresenting problems and issues,
(36:56):
depression, anxiety, the way youshow up in relationships,
certain unconscious coping orsemi conscious coping
mechanisms. You're drinking toomuch, you're eating too much,
you're having trouble gettingactivated, you're scared of
public speaking. So I thinkthere's that, and then also
really encouraging people toembrace meditation as a practice
(37:22):
and a way of life, right? Thatallows you to be more conscious
and intentional, and that'ssomething you can do on your
own. There are a host of appsthat help to make it easier by
doing a guided meditation, andyou can start out with two or
three minutes a day. Andanything else you would suggest
(37:43):
for listeners based on becauseyou have this beautiful, unique
kind of trifecta of how youapproach things.
Natalie Baker (37:51):
What else would
Colette Fehr (37:51):
you suggest for listeners who are trying to live
a more intentional holisticlife?
Natalie Baker (37:58):
Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great
question, and I think we have alot more available to us than we
give ourselves credit for,including just our own
intuition, our own sense. And Ithink that however, we can
cultivate self awareness,awareness of ourselves in the
(38:20):
present moment, whether it'sthrough formal meditation and
practice or just an informallike every time I pick up my
phone, I'm going to first take adeep breath and just pay
attention to where I am and howI'm feeling. Just notice my felt
experience in my body, and thenif I want to stare at my phone
(38:41):
for 15 minutes, I can, but firstI'm going to just ground myself
in me in this moment. And that'sa valuable thing to do, and I
can tolerate that. And you know,for people who are curious about
the neurofeedback, I have a lotof educational videos on my
YouTube channel, because it's sonew and so and I always find
(39:05):
people who are educated have thebest outcomes. So if people are
curious, they can certainlycheck out my YouTube channel or
my website.
Colette Fehr (39:14):
So Natalie, we'll have all that in the show notes.
But also, can you share withlisteners how they can find like
what your YouTube channel is,called your website, and any
other way they can connect withyou.
Natalie Baker (39:26):
I have a couple of websites. I have Buddhist
psychotherapy ny.com is mytherapy website. And then
specifically the neurofeedbackis neurofeedback training.com
and my handle for the YouTube isneurofeedback, NY. Or they could
just type in my name, NatalieBaker, and I'll pop up anybody
(39:49):
who wants to reach out, who hasquestions and they want to just
continue the education forthemselves on any of these
topics. I'm more than happy toguide people. Oh, that's.
Wonderful.
Colette Fehr (40:00):
Thank you so much.
Thank
Laura Bowman (40:01):
you. This is really interesting, great
Natalie Baker (40:04):
that really warms my heart. Because more than
anything, I want people to haveconfidence that they can keep
going, you know, and keepexploring themselves and you
know, not give up.
Colette Fehr (40:16):
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and
insights with us and ourlisteners, and thank you to all
of our listeners for being herewith us for this great episode
with Natalie. Check her out andreach out if you have questions
and if you're interested intrying some neurofeedback. I
know I am now, and we will seeyou all next time on insights
(40:38):
from the couch. Bye, guys. You
Natalie, welcome to insights from the couch. We
have another great episode foryou all today with Natalie
Baker, who is a licensedpsychotherapist, seasoned
meditation teacher and expertNeurofeedback trainer with more
than 25 years of experience. Shehas a private practice in New
York City where she combines thebest of Eastern and Western
(00:27):
psychology with cutting edgeneuroscience to help clients
achieve deep, lasting change.
And I think you work with peoplewith PTSD, trauma, anxiety,
depression, relationship issues,right? ADHD, yeah, am I getting
that right? Yep, the wholerange. The whole range. So this
is going to be great, becausethis is really a different take
(00:47):
on the from the type of therapyLaura and I do, and that you
specialize in integratingBuddhist psychology into
therapeutic practice, which I'mreally excited to hear about,
and empower individuals tonavigate life's challenges
through mindfulness, compassionand brain training techniques.
As a certified neuro optimaltrainer, you merge Neurofeedback
(01:11):
with extensive background andmeditation to support mental and
emotional well being, andNatalie's holistic approach
helps reduce anxiety, improverelationships and foster
personal growth, guiding peoplefrom all walks of life toward
balance and resilience. Wow,very impressive and very
exciting to hear more about.
(01:34):
Welcome Natalie,
Natalie Baker (01:36):
thank you, and I'm just so thrilled to be here
today having this conversationwith you too. I've really
enjoyed your podcast and thegenerosity that you have in
sharing your personal lives andreally normalizing, you know,
all the struggles that we gothrough in midlife. So thank
you. I'm
Colette Fehr (01:55):
really happy to be here. Oh, and thanks for saying
that too. That means a lot,because we have kind of put it
all out there, that's for sure,and then some. But it is so
important to normalize thatwe're all going through this
business of being humantogether. And so as we start to
talk about your expertise andthe way you help clients, you
(02:18):
know, for our listeners, can yougive us a little bit of insight
into how you got into thisspecialty and what drew you to
your particular form oftherapeutic magic?
Natalie Baker (02:30):
I really came about it very organically. When
I was 14 years old. I waswatching the Phil Donahue show.
Do you remember Phil? Yes, andhe brought on Transcendental
Meditation experts, and for somereason, that really piqued my
curiosity. And I was like,meditation, what is this? Yeah,
(02:55):
and so back then, there reallywasn't much around and so I had
my mom drive me to the TMcenter, and I went to their
introductory talk, and I waslike, wow, meditation, sounds so
cool, but this isn't for me. Myinterest in being a therapist
(03:16):
also started around that time. Ikind of grew up in a family
where my mom trained as a goodScandinavian Canadian farmer.
She learned like, you know, youjust got to repress it and get
by. And my poor father wastraumatized. His mother died
when he was six. He was bulliedby a step brother. His dad was
(03:39):
an alcoholic, and so he alsostuffed it. And just like as a
kid, I could feel his four yearold self and how much suffering
he had, yeah, and I justthought, like, you know what we
can do better than, like, notcommunicating, like it's really
okay. And so I just sort of veryorganically found myself
(04:04):
pursuing my meditation path. Ifound a Buddhist community when
I was in university, and justcontinued on my passion with
helping people communicatebetter, an undergraduate in
psychology, and then a Master'sin Counseling Psychology. And
just for whatever reason for me,those two pieces have always
(04:26):
been there. And then theneurofeedback piece kind of came
also very sort ofserendipitously. I was teaching
a meditation weekend, and one ofthe participants was in private
equity. And he said, Natalie,have you ever heard of
neurofeedback? I've been askedto fund this Peak Performance
(04:47):
Center in Manhattan. And I waslike, No, I've never heard of
that. And he said, well, ithelps that brain to not go into
like, anxiety and depression bylike, really, like talking to
the. Part. And I was like, wow,because, you know, as you two
probably are well aware, right?
Part of our challenge aspsychotherapists is to try to
(05:08):
figure out, how do we get thatbrain to stop doing that stress
response? I did Neurofeedback onmyself. I sent one of my really
traumatized clients to go tryit. She was also a yoga teacher,
and so she was very aware of herfelt experience. So I thought,
(05:28):
okay, she's would be a goodperson to go try it. The end of
the story is that I saw how whenyou give feedback to that limbic
brain in the present moment thatit's doing the wrong habitual
pattern, right? That fight,flight, freeze energy that brain
has the ability to take in thatinformation, if it's shown it,
(05:52):
and do something differently. Iknow you were talking to another
guest the other week aboutneuroplasticity, right? This is
the application of the principleof neuroplasticity, which you
know, really interestingly,dovetails into what the
foundation of Buddhism is, whichis that suffering is part of our
(06:15):
human condition. But it's not,you know, the only thing that
we're capable of that actuallywe have the seed of sanity
within us called Buddha nature,and that we have to allow
ourselves to reset out ofhabitual patterns and find that
(06:38):
basic goodness or that basicsanity that's present all the
time. So I thought it was reallycool that here this brain
training technology showed methat our brain actually
functions in alignment with thisidea in Buddhism, that there is
always the seed of sanity. Wejust have to find the skillful
(07:04):
means to access it, to access
Colette Fehr (07:08):
it. Okay, so, you know, just for listeners, in
terms of limbic brain, and, yes,right. So give us a little
primer, like I'm in fifth grade,on how Neurofeedback what it is
and how it works, because itsounds like this is a way that
we can interrupt our unconsciouspatterns and do something more
(07:31):
intentional, right, that we'renot powerless. We have more
control to design the way werespond to stress and life. So
how does neurofeedback? What isit and how does it work?
Natalie Baker (07:46):
Yeah, thanks for for backing me up here and and
giving that explanation,because, of course, it's new
technology, and also we neverthink about how the brain
functions, right, andspecifically how the unconscious
brain functions, right? We Wefocus on what we can do with our
(08:08):
willful selves when we're aware,right, which is our prefrontal
cortex, but we don't spend a lotof time thinking about all the
functions that the brainperforms outside of our
conscious awareness, right? AndI think that, in part, we don't
think about that because it'skind of produces a little bit of
(08:29):
anxiety, right? To think like,you know, there's all these
things that I'm doing, but who'sthe me that's doing it, right?
And so the limbic brain is partof that unconscious brain that
is our survival brain. So this,when you look at the evolution
(08:50):
of the brain, right? This ismore of the core brain, the
reptilian brain, and this is thepart of ourselves that keeps us
alive, what is considered athreat or what's dangerous. The
limbic brain defines that veryspecifically which is what's
going to cause me bodily harm inless than a minute, right? So I
(09:13):
need to punch it. I need to runfrom it. I need to play dead in
order to keep this body alive,right? So it has a very specific
purpose in our, you know, humanfunctioning, right now,
Colette Fehr (09:30):
survival, right?
That's all it cares about.
Exactly
Natalie Baker (09:35):
what we're doing with neurofeedback, we're
putting EEG sensors on the sideof the heads, right, and that's
collecting the electricalcommunication of the brain. So
the brain communicates throughelectricity and through
chemicals or neurotransmitters,and we're specifically measuring
the electrical communication ofthe brain, and the brain does a
(09:57):
certain kind of electrical danceto. Just before it's going into
a state change and performing afunction, and this Neurofeedback
technology reads your electricalcommunication 265 times per
second. Wow, that's how manydecisions your brain is making
(10:23):
in any moment again, just tohelp us appreciate, right? We
have the World Wide Web in ourheads.
Laura Bowman (10:33):
I'm just so curious, so like, I'm just
trying to envision this, becauseI've seen a little bit of
neurofeedback, but I'm not superfamiliar with it. So the client
sitting in a chair, they've gotEEG things linked up onto their
head. What are they watching?
Something that's giving them thefeedback, or like, what is
what's coming in that's givingthem feedback,
Natalie Baker (10:55):
because this system is working to show the
brain everything that it's doingin real time. It's constantly
giving feedback. And so Laura,your question of like, well, how
does the feedback get delivered?
So it with this system. It'sauditory feedback, because that
limbic brain uses auditory senseperception as its main way to
(11:19):
gather data about the presentmoment, because we're listening
even when we sleep, interesting.
And so what happens is, wheneveryour brain is going into a state
change and again, like 1000s ofthings it could be doing, not
just the things that we're likeconsciously doing, like having a
(11:42):
thought, or adjusting our bodyposture, just a lot of
unconscious decisions aregetting made, and in the
millisecond that that decisionis about to happen, there's
there's a state change, themusic is interrupted, and that
limbic brain is listening forchange. And so what happens is
(12:04):
that in the exact millisecondthe brain is going into a state
change, we're now telling it payattention, right? So the thing
about the other thing about thebrain, besides that, it wants to
use energy efficiently, it alsowants to make effective
decisions. And so the efficiencypart is that the brain goes on
(12:24):
autopilot. And this is posttraumatic stress. We take simple
cues from the environment, andwe go, Oh, now it's like, then
I'm going to scream at thatperson, right? Meanwhile, this
is a safe person standing infront of us. Why am I screaming
at my spouse, right? And that'sthat brain using a simple cue
(12:45):
going, Oh, love object. Oh,remember, you were traumatized
in childhood by that loveobject. Great. Now you're in a
dangerous situation. Scream.
Colette Fehr (12:55):
Use the same strategy that you use. Then,
instead of being able to keepyour brain open to taking in the
safety of the current situationand updating and integrating new
information, which is then whatthe neurofeedback is doing
right, letting your brain takethat moment before you go into
(13:16):
that behavior and incorporatethe New data so you can make a
different behavioral choice.
Laura Bowman (13:23):
Are you talking about as the therapist? Like,
are you talking with the clientand and kind of doing a little
bit of reprogramming, or is thisall happening the client, with
themselves and the feedback?
Like, I'm just give like, canyou ground it in the concrete?
Like, yeah, absolutely.
Colette Fehr (13:40):
Like, an example.
Yeah, the most
Natalie Baker (13:43):
profound part of this brain training, which is
that this, there's a changethat's going to happen over
time. And then I'll go into theexample. So what the brain is
learning when it's hooked up tothe system is it's being taught
all the good informations in thepresent moment come into the
present moment, assess yourcurrent needs, then make a
(14:05):
decision. So because the brainwants to make effective
decisions and use that energyefficiently, now it's motivated
to do this practice even whenit's not hooked up to the
system, right? So we're actuallyteaching it to function
differently over time. So now togo to an example, going back to
(14:27):
this client, who I invited orencouraged her to go out and try
it, when I was assessing whetherthis was going to be a good
tool, she had been abused as achild by sexually abused by a
neighbor, and also just reallyparents put her in a very unsafe
(14:48):
environment over and over again.
But one of her triggers, hertrauma triggers, was large men
being close to her on thesubway, and she would go into
the. Fight response. And boy,was she a fighter. I mean, she
actually got into fist fights onlike the subway. So she was
highly motivated to, you know,really help her brain learn
(15:10):
different strategies. And Ithink it was probably about a
month and a half into herNeurofeedback sessions, I think
she was doing twice weekly. Soabout 10 sessions in, she came
into therapy, and she said,Natalie, I had the most profound
experience. She said, I was on acrowded subway. This large man
(15:31):
came close to me, and instead ofgetting like upset and angry, I
noticed that my body took a deepbreath and just turned around,
and so I wasn't having to facehim anymore. And so that's a
great example of that limbicbrain making a different
(15:53):
decision in the present moment,which is, oh, this person is
safe, but I don't really want tobe looking at him, and so I'm
going to just pivot my body tolook somewhere else. And that is
the limbic brain deciding to dothat. Now, in terms of our
conscious selves, we we want tohave the motivation of
(16:16):
recognizing like, yeah, thatthat fight, flight, freeze
energy, that doesn't work forme, like, I don't want to do
that anymore, to live insurvival mode exactly, to be
like, I don't want thosestrategies. And this is a really
important thing when it comes toneurofeedback, because that
anxious fight flight energy isgoing to want to calm down.
(16:40):
We're going to want to regulate.
But the person who has toconsciously want to go there
they you know, like people whoare like, you know, my anxiety
really isn't working for me,like it doesn't provide me
anything, versus the person whosays, No, my anxiety is my mojo.
That's what gets me to do thingsand get things done. That latter
(17:02):
group that's like, no, I need myanxious Fight, Flight energy.
They tend to do about eightsessions of Neurofeedback and
then give it up, because that'swhen they really start to calm
down. And then they get nervousagain, because it's like, no, I
need that energy. So yourmindset is also a really
(17:23):
important part of the success ofneurofeedback training. So
talking about, you know, thatunconscious brain wanting to re
regulate, but then also asconsciously, also wanting to go
into regulation and live in thatplace. Yeah,
Laura Bowman (17:41):
I'm thinking of this client that I have who
she's so bright and wonderful,and she has developed in the
last 10 years like a terriblecase of anxiety around public
speaking. And she's a fantasticpublic speaker, which is the
absolute joke of the wholething, but she the limbic
(18:03):
reaction she has to nowspeaking, and she's tried all
these different things tomedicate it, and we've tried
exposure, but it's on thatlimbic level that she can, I
mean, she would be desperate torewire that, because
consciously, she's like, I am agreat speaker. I know I am. I
(18:24):
get great feedback about it, buton the body level, she cannot
control her reaction to it,right?
Colette Fehr (18:31):
But I wonder about that, because Laura, I relate to
that example a lot. And youknow, so many people have fear
of public speaking. Andconsciously, I enjoy public
speaking once I get started, Ithink I'm a decent public
speaker, but I do go into a lotof fear, and I think of that as
my innate survival wiring, thatI'm a very sensitively wired
(18:54):
person, and we are puttingourselves up in front of the
herd for judgment. So what I'mcurious about because I am
certified in EMDR, and I onlywork with couples now, so I
don't use it the way I used to,but EMDR, for listeners, is eye
movement desensitizationreprocessing, which sounds like
a bunch of gobbledygook, butit's basically using a machine
(19:16):
to move your eyes and alsotactile stimulation to help the
brain reprocess trauma and stuckpoints and kind of absorb what's
happened in the past and moveforward. So what I was going to
ask you is tying this back tofear of public speaking, even
though they say with EMDR, youcan use it for everything. I
(19:40):
have found anecdotally in yearsof using amdr that it works
better when there is a specificevent or series of events that
created the fight or flightreaction, as opposed to, I'm not
sure anything would work on mefor fear of public speaking,
because it's just my body. Sortof doing its thing, like I never
(20:01):
got up and gave a speech and hadtomatoes thrown at me or
something. So is Neurofeedbacklike that, where, if it's just
the way your your body's sort ofnatural states that it's may not
work as effectively as it doeswith like, a specific damaging
event.
Natalie Baker (20:18):
Yeah, it does make sense. And this is more
about allowing that brain to getinformation about itself so it
can decide whether it's overinvesting, we could say, right,
putting too much energy intothat reactive response. And
(20:42):
that's the key. It
Colette Fehr (20:43):
could, right, like, so, yeah, exactly. I could
do neurofeedback, and you couldhelp my brain learn that getting
up in front of an audience isn'tdoesn't mean I'm about to die
Natalie Baker (20:53):
exactly, because, I mean, that's the interesting
thing, is that we as socialbeings, right? That that
survival brain totally takes ourrelationships as the sort of
life threatening event, and Iput that in quotes, even though
(21:16):
I'm not going to die becausethat person didn't like what I
said in my talk, right? Butmeanwhile, you know, the body is
acting as if it's like gearingup to have to go to battle, you
know, for survival, exactly. Andso when the brain recognizes
that there's a safe environment,we're still going to have, you
know, a stress response, becausethat's a fundamental part of who
(21:39):
we are as humans, it's reallyabout is it? Is it at a level
that is inappropriate, given thecurrent circumstance, and each
brain decides what isappropriate. Which brings me to
another important point, whichis we all have ideas about how
(22:00):
we should be, and you know, howwe should feel, how we should
be. We usually don't questionour expectation about our
performance, but thatexpectation is also a big player
in whether or not we can reregulate, just in general, or
whether we get we stay in thatfight, flight, freeze, energy
(22:23):
and kind of continue to selfharass, right? The that fight
energy is then internalizedtowards ourselves, because we're
critical, right? We have anexpectation that we should be
over this, right, whatever thingit is that's coming up in
therapy, right? What's wrongwith me that I'm not over this,
(22:45):
right? And now we're recreatinga stress response, because it's
like, oh, there's a problem withme. Yeah? I
Laura Bowman (22:51):
mean, I do ifs, I don't know if you're familiar
with family systems, but it'sall about that, like, you know,
there's the protective partsfor, you know, and then there's
the people that even judge theprotective parts that you
shouldn't be protecting thatway. Or, you know, the critic.
There's a critic judging thecritic. You know, it's like a
meta thing. How are you dealingwith that? Through the neuro,
(23:12):
the neurofeedback model. What'sthe therapist role? Yeah,
Natalie Baker (23:16):
well, you know, the therapist role is really, I
mean, twofold. One is thatwhatever therapeutic techniques
that we want to use to help thatclient, you know, get combined
with the neurofeedback. And soreally, the neurofeedback is
that add on piece to help thatlimbic brain recognize the here
(23:39):
and now, right? Laura, like yousaid with your public speaking
client, right? It's like herconscious self is in a great
place, but that limbic brain isstill misfiring and
misperceiving. So theneurofeedback is really to help
that part. And then I find mysort of role as the therapist
(24:00):
when someone is doingneurofeedback is part
psychoeducation, right? So totalk about, you know,
expectation, because peoplethink in a linear way, right?
Which is, if something'spositive or something's going to
change in a positive way, it'sgoing to do so in a very
predictable, linear fashion, andthen I know I'm good to go,
(24:24):
right? But what is linear inlife? Nothing, right? Nothing
linear. Things are 100%predictable. And so that's the
way we spook ourselves right? Aswe have this linear expectation
of, if something's good, thenit's going to be in that way.
But the truth of life, andcertainly psychotherapy, is non
(24:47):
linear, and the brain is nonlinear, and this is a big piece
of education. I do for peoplewho are engaging in
neurofeedback, is becausethey'll then have a linear.
Expectation, right? So if I'manxious, then every day I'm
going to feel like 2% calmer,right? And then I know it's
(25:09):
working for me, right? And andwe can thank the pharmaceutical
industry a little bit for thisexpectation, right? There's
going to be this one thingthat's going to help us, and
it's going to help usimmediately, and we're going to
know it's helping us, but thebrain is a non linear change
agent, and so when someone isdoing Neurofeedback and is
anxious, they're going to startto feel, you know, depending on
(25:34):
who they are and how self aware,they might notice, oh, I'm
sleeping a little bit better.
Oh, I didn't get so anxiousabout that situation. So
there'll be things in theirconscious awareness they notice
shifting, and then they may havea day where they have, like, a
spike in anxiety, and then theygo, Oh, the neurofeedback is not
working, yeah. And so part of myjob is to help them understand,
(25:55):
like, no, that's not how wechange in a positive way, we
change in a non linear way, andso we have to bake into our
expectation, you know, thatwe're going to have those times
when we do still feel a littlebit of anxiety, or we feel a lot
of anxiety, depending on kind ofWhat our habitual neural
(26:17):
pathways are around states likeanxiousness, that doesn't mean
abandoned ship. Things are notworking, and so setting
appropriate expectations andthen really talking to people
about like, where do they wantto get to?
Laura Bowman (26:37):
But it's like a reprogramming that takes, like,
months and years to do. I have aclient who has bipolar disorder
and has gone sugar free and hasreally changed his life and has
really diversified hismicrobiome, and anytime he takes
a step back from that protocol,he has a resurgence of symptoms,
which is fascinating. That'sexactly me. I went
Colette Fehr (26:59):
a year of eating really, really clean, and I felt
kind of cured, like I remembersaying to my husband, oh my god,
it's 6 (27:09):
30pm and I've already eaten dinner. And guess what, I
have no desire to eat anythingelse. And I mean, I was eating
fish and vegetables and wholegrain and really nothing
refined. I wasn't drinking anyalcohol. It was pretty clean,
especially for me. And I didn'thave the same like I ate when I
(27:30):
was hungry and when I was full,it was over, but the minute I
got back into that food, it wentright back. Yeah, and,
Natalie Baker (27:39):
and that's one of the things we're learning is
that, you know, we're not reallyone person. We are a host of all
sorts of organisms that worktogether to produce this person
I call Natalie or Colette. Andwe don't really want to
acknowledge that, because it'skind of unsettling to think that
(27:59):
we're just this host for for allthese creatures that kind of
contribute to who we are. Butthe truth of the matter is that
you know we are, and therelationship between that gut
bacteria and how our brainfunctions, there was Laura.
There was a study that was justdone showing schizophrenics and
(28:21):
Bipolars who are put onbasically like a ketogenic diet,
which is like no carbs, right?
That they really theirfunctioning improves so much. So
we're learning about Wow, whenthough, for those particular
neurodivergent brains, right?
They function so much better onketones. And then the other
(28:45):
piece is inflammation, right?
Brain inflammation contributesto mental health symptoms,
right? And so we're learning somuch about mental health, the
brain, the gut. What
Laura Bowman (28:58):
I so appreciate about what you're saying,
Natalie, just in general, isthat you have, like, a curiosity
about what works for a client. Ithink it's so easy in our field
to get pigeonholed into like, Ido this thing, or I do EMDR, I
do ifs or and this is all I do.
But like, maintaining acuriosity about like, let's
follow the research. Let's seewhat works. Let's be open minded
(29:20):
to see, like, what's reallyeffective with clients. And so I
love that you pull from so manydifferent I mean, you have your
things, but you're looking atwhat really works.
Natalie Baker (29:32):
Yes, and also, you know, one of my training as
a as a Buddhist psychotherapist,is trusting that the client's
innate intelligence is alwaysaccessible if you provide the
space and the expectation forit. How many times a day do we
(29:57):
ask a client a question andthey. Habitually go, I don't
know, and then the conversationstops there, because they
believe that. And so part of mytraining is to help clients get
curious about what's on theother side of that, like, if we
didn't believe that habitual,just blurt, I don't know, right?
(30:21):
And instead, and so I I givepeople this practice to do, and
it's a practice. It takes timeto trust in this practice, but
it's called first thought, bestthought. And so I present a
question, and I say to them, Iwant your first thought answer.
Do not think about the answer.
Blurt it, and I'm going to tellyou nine times out of 10, it's
(30:44):
absolutely a piece ofinformation we need to take our
next baby step.
Colette Fehr (30:54):
You're helping them tap into their intuition.
Where, what is there that maynot be as conscious can become
more conscious and accessible.
Yes, wow. I love that. I lovethat
Natalie Baker (31:09):
way of doing it.
And, you know, some people can,you know, if people want to try
it at home, just write out whatlike, what the problem is. And
then just first thought answer,like, kind of like morning pages
for people who've done TheArtist's Way, just like, let
yourself just start writing.
Don't look at what you'rewriting. Don't look back. Just
(31:32):
write and then stop and look atwhat you've written again.
Another way to just start toaccess that basic intelligence
or that intuition that's alwaysthere, but we have a strong mind
habit of, I don't know,
Colette Fehr (31:50):
we're overthinking things to death, letting other
parts of self hijack us and talkus into these like competing
agendas that don't really serveus?
Laura Bowman (32:02):
Can we talk about meditation for a minute? Because
I'm assuming that meditation is,like something that enables this
voice to get even, like clearerand kind of come to the surface.
But the thing you hear intherapy all the time when you
suggest meditation, but I mean,what is the thing you always
hear from clients? Oh, I'm soterrible at that, oh, I suck at
meditation. Or, like, I hatethat. How do you deal with that?
(32:25):
And how do you integrate, like,sort of this eastern meditative
piece into your practice?
Natalie Baker (32:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, self criticism
is probably one of our strongesthabits and so, so what happens
in meditation practice is thatwe become more aware, and so we
become more aware of thatcritical voice. And so part of
how I address the whole thewhole statement of like, I'm a
(32:57):
bad meditator. I tried. Icouldn't do it. You know,
whatever the criticism is isreally to define what meditation
practice is and to set theappropriate expectation. So in
the tradition of meditation,mindfulness, awareness,
meditation that's been aroundfor like, 2600, years, right?
(33:19):
We've recently founded in mentalhealth, which is terrific, but
just as a reminder, like peoplehave been meditating for a long,
long, long, long time, I'll giveyou the traditional analogy of
why we meditate from a spiritualpoint of view, not from a Like I
want to improve x in myself, butfrom the like meditation as a
(33:45):
spiritual practice. So themetaphor is that there's the sun
in the sky and the sun in thesky is that basic sanity that we
were talking about, that basicgood intelligence, intuition,
which is clear, seeing, which isloving, which is fundamentally
not aggressive, right? And that,that is the nature of all
(34:07):
humans, that's the that's thesun in the sky. And then, like
any skyscape, we have clouds,and those clouds are our
thoughts, right? And clouds arenot solid, right? You go through
the clouds when you fly and youexperience that there, you look
at them and you think, Oh,that's a mass of clouds. They're
(34:29):
dark. They're going to rain onme, right? But really, they're
not solid. And that is ourthoughts. And we work with this
in mental health all the time,where we're trying to help our
clients experience that theirthoughts are not as solid,
they're not true, real andmeaningful in the way that we
experience them, but they'realso part of the landscape,
(34:52):
right? There's no world wherethere are no clouds, and so part
of the challenge of the cloudsis that they have. Secure our
ability to experience the sunand the warmth of the sun.
Meditation practice is not thatwe're going to somehow magically
remove all the clouds from thesky, because that's not reality.
(35:15):
Reality is that there areclouds. Sometimes they're cute
and fluffy, sometimes they'redark and like ominous, but
they're actually always movingright. They're never static. And
in the same way, when we'repracticing meditation, we're
practicing being present with,not changing something, being
(35:40):
present with and so that's a bigpart of the psycho education, is
that meditation practice, agreat meditation teacher, a
Tibetan teacher, once said, youknow, meditation is more of a
laxative rather than a sedative,but it's really not a tool for
(36:03):
us to be able to tolerate ouremotional experience, to know
ourselves, to live in our owntruth, to be in charge of our
choices we make moment tomoment. Right? It's about the
opposite. And as mental healthprofessionals, I just feel like
this is a big area of psychoeducation that's so important
(36:26):
because it does impact theirquality of life, their quality
of mental health, in
Colette Fehr (36:32):
such a profound way. So in terms of, you know, a
couple of takeaways for thelistener. It sounds like, first
of all that Neurofeedback may besomething a lot of our listeners
would want to look into. I mean,it's made me want to do it after
talking to you today, you know,and it sounds like it's
applicable to a whole range ofpresenting problems and issues,
(36:56):
depression, anxiety, the way youshow up in relationships,
certain unconscious coping orsemi conscious coping
mechanisms. You're drinking toomuch, you're eating too much,
you're having trouble gettingactivated, you're scared of
public speaking. So I thinkthere's that, and then also
really encouraging people toembrace meditation as a practice
(37:22):
and a way of life, right? Thatallows you to be more conscious
and intentional, and that'ssomething you can do on your
own. There are a host of appsthat help to make it easier by
doing a guided meditation, andyou can start out with two or
three minutes a day. Andanything else you would suggest
(37:43):
for listeners based on becauseyou have this beautiful, unique
kind of trifecta of how youapproach things.
Natalie Baker (37:51):
What else would
Colette Fehr (37:51):
you suggest for listeners who are trying to live
a more intentional holisticlife?
Natalie Baker (37:58):
Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great
question, and I think we have alot more available to us than we
give ourselves credit for,including just our own
intuition, our own sense. And Ithink that however, we can
cultivate self awareness,awareness of ourselves in the
(38:20):
present moment, whether it'sthrough formal meditation and
practice or just an informallike every time I pick up my
phone, I'm going to first take adeep breath and just pay
attention to where I am and howI'm feeling. Just notice my felt
experience in my body, and thenif I want to stare at my phone
(38:41):
for 15 minutes, I can, but firstI'm going to just ground myself
in me in this moment. And that'sa valuable thing to do, and I
can tolerate that. And you know,for people who are curious about
the neurofeedback, I have a lotof educational videos on my
YouTube channel, because it's sonew and so and I always find
(39:05):
people who are educated have thebest outcomes. So if people are
curious, they can certainlycheck out my YouTube channel or
my website.
Colette Fehr (39:14):
So Natalie, we'll have all that in the show notes.
But also, can you share withlisteners how they can find like
what your YouTube channel is,called your website, and any
other way they can connect withyou.
Natalie Baker (39:26):
I have a couple of websites. I have Buddhist
psychotherapy ny.com is mytherapy website. And then
specifically the neurofeedbackis neurofeedback training.com
and my handle for the YouTube isneurofeedback, NY. Or they could
just type in my name, NatalieBaker, and I'll pop up anybody
(39:49):
who wants to reach out, who hasquestions and they want to just
continue the education forthemselves on any of these
topics. I'm more than happy toguide people. Oh, that's.
Wonderful.
Colette Fehr (40:00):
Thank you so much.
Thank
Laura Bowman (40:01):
you. This is really interesting, great
Natalie Baker (40:04):
that really warms my heart. Because more than
anything, I want people to haveconfidence that they can keep
going, you know, and keepexploring themselves and you
know, not give up.
Colette Fehr (40:16):
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and
insights with us and ourlisteners, and thank you to all
of our listeners for being herewith us for this great episode
with Natalie. Check her out andreach out if you have questions
and if you're interested intrying some neurofeedback. I
know I am now, and we will seeyou all next time on insights
(40:38):
from the couch. Bye, guys. You
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