In this eye-opening episode, we sit down with Nicole Swartz, a licensed therapist specializing in helping people heal from the damaging effects of diet culture and generational body-image trauma. Nicole shares her personal story of overcoming an eating disorder, offers insights into her revolutionary coaching program, and explains how shifting mindsets around food and body image can create lasting, positive change for both individuals and families. This conversation dives into how diet culture infiltrates our lives, generational differences in attitudes toward body image, and the transformative power of self-compassion and acceptance.
Episode Highlights:
[0:03] - Meet Nicole Swartz: Therapist, coach, and passionate advocate for breaking free from diet culture.
[5:00] - Nicole’s personal journey: From a childhood steeped in diet culture to finding healing and creating her coaching program.
[8:35] - How generational differences shape body image and food habits.
[13:28] - The rise of body positivity among Gen Z and its cultural impact.
[18:24] - Navigating the fine line between self-acceptance and the desire for change.
[25:52] - Addressing the challenges of an obesogenic culture and finding balance in food choices.
[29:12] - Transforming inner dialogue: How to move from self-criticism to self-compassion.
[34:00] - Teaching children a balanced approach to food and body acceptance.
[47:51] - Letting go of the shame around food and embracing a healthier narrative.
Resources:
Connect with Nicole Swartz: https://www.instagram.com/antidiet_therapist
Make sure to visit the “Resources” page on our website www.insightsfromthecouch.org to download the worksheet and take ways that accompany each episode. This is hugely important as we are now creating a download that is unique to each episode and working hard to create an email list to support our programming offerings moving forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
All right, welcome back, everybody. Thanks for
listening. We're here atinsights from the couch, and
Laura and I have a wonderfulguest today, Nicole Swartz, and
we're going to be talking aboutbreaking free from diet culture
and having a healthyrelationship with food and your
body something that is alifelong process for most of us,
(00:25):
women, thanks to society andYes, welcome Nicole. I want to
give a little bit of info onyou, but just to say welcome to
we're so glad to have you. Thankyou so much for having me and
acknowledging how important thistopic is because I'm obviously
very passionate about it, so Iappreciate you giving me space
(00:45):
to be here. Thank you. Yeah,we're thrilled to have you that
you're a licensed therapist whospecializes in helping
individuals here heal fromgenerational diet, culture,
trauma, beautiful, and thatyou're committed to empowering
clients to develop a positiverelationship with their bodies
and food, and you understand theimportance of breaking the
(01:06):
cycle, and you really offerguidance to those who wish to
create a healthier environment,both for themselves and their
children and families. Yeah, itis, and it's layered, right? I
think that my approach, youknow, I think without hijacking
the moment and jumping right in,you know, I look at moms very
(01:28):
specifically my generation. I'ma millennial. I think we're just
the first generation who's sortof saying, This doesn't feel
good, I want to push back alittle bit, right, and realizing
that we really absorbed so muchspecifically from our parents.
You know, we really the researchpoints mostly to mothers and
daughters, right? Specifically,a daughter with a mother who is
(01:49):
consumed by body image dietrestriction has a higher
likelihood of developing aneating disorder at some point in
her life, or just being stuck ina cycle of dieting. We know that
that's what the research says,but I think we're going to find
out that it's not justdaughters, it's men too. We know
men just really don't talk somuch about it. But you know, I
(02:10):
was a product of thatenvironment, so I have done all
of the work to heal and in mywork as a private practice
therapist, every time I ask thequestion about, tell me your
relationship with food in yourbody. Most of the answers are
not. It's great. I love myself.
I have problems with food,right? So that's kind of where
the idea was birthed. A littlebit like, okay, it's this
personal experience for me,mixed with what I hear from the
(02:32):
people I'm treating and reallyjust seeing this highlighted
problem that doesn't get as muchattention as it should. So
beautifully. Said, can you tellus a little bit about your own
personal story? If you'rewilling? Yeah, absolutely. So I
was raised with, you know, Ialways say two very loving
parents, right? I always startthe story that way, and before I
even burst this program and Iwent to my parents and I said,
(02:54):
I'm gonna be online and I'mgonna be talking a lot about my
experiences, and it's not toshame you, or to say you did
anything wrong, I think they didwhat the best that they could.
They didn't know back then. I'm38 so you know, my childhood
really was the 90s. We justdidn't know back then what we
know now. So they really did thebest they could, but they were
both very consumed with theirbodies, and both of my parents
(03:16):
have been on a diet my wholelife right up until today, right
now. And you know, I canremember going to Weight
Watchers meetings with my mom,not because she wanted me to be
there to lose weight, but justlike there was no childcare and
she had to go to her meeting. Sohere I was sitting in the room,
and we just didn't I want tobelieve nobody knew that as
(03:37):
children, we're internalizingall of this, right? Even if
we're sitting there and it's notabout us or our bodies, we're
getting the message that, oh,being smaller is better. My
mom's kind of obsessed withbeing smaller, so I must make
sure that I stay small too. So Iwound up with an eating disorder
that really reared its head,mostly when I was 14. I say that
(03:57):
I'm in remission, but that's alife long diagnosis, right?
That's yeah. So I spent most ofmy, I'll say, from like 19 up
until just a few years ago, onthe same cycle that I saw my
parents on diets and just somuch self loathing, and it was
(04:18):
never good enough, and I neverfelt confident enough. And then
having children really reopenedall of that, right? Watching my
body changed with each of mypregnancies, gaining, losing all
of the weight, until just maybe,like, two years ago, and I was
finally like, I am so tired ofjust hating myself. There has to
be another way, and I don't wantto spend every day thinking
(04:39):
about what food choices I'mmaking, and obsessing and having
guilt and all of the things thatI could really just go on and on
and on. But I wound up workingwith a registered dietitian who
was very specificallyspecialized in breaking diet
culture, and then, of course, inmy own therapy process, it was.
Nicole Swartz (05:00):
Hand in hand, the healing that I experienced, and
I realized there's a lot ofcoaching programs, like the one
that I'm doing, focused from thenutrition lens. There's not a
lot that focus from the MentalHealth ones, even eating
disorder specialized therapists.
I think there's just a missedmarket here, and that's kind of
the whole story that got me towhere I designed this program
(05:21):
that I made. So, Wow, I'm socurious about the program, but I
am. Just have to start, like,Colette and I were talking, our
parents are closer, late 70s,pushing 80, and very blended
with the idea of like thin isbetter. I mean, my mom, I'll
just say she got like, a tummytuck at age 75
Laura Bowman (05:44):
Wow. And like, continues to like battle. Like,
if she feels thin, she canparticipate in active society.
If she doesn't, she doesn't wantto. So like, the messages that I
received were not even likepadded at all, they were overt.
Yes, they right. You will nothave value if you're not then
(06:06):
Exactly, yeah. So I didn't endup with an eating disorder, but
my daughter did, and so I'vegotten to watch that unfold,
right? Yeah, but it is sopervasive in my family that I
mean, and I feel like Colettehas had some of the same stuff
too, yeah.
Colette Fehr (06:24):
But, you know, it's interesting, Laura, for
sure. You know, my father washeavy as a child, and his, you
know, my grandparents would bewell over 100 right? So we're
talking many generations ago,and my father was nicknamed
chubby because he wasoverweight, and so much so that
(06:45):
my grandfather, who was in awonderful person, right? I'm not
trying to disparage anyone. Imean, I love my parents and my
grandparents just like you said,unconditionally, that they put
up a street sign at the cornerof my dad's block that said
chubby's corner.
Yeah. And my dad tells the storyof going to his dad there, he
(07:09):
was a physician, and saying, Canyou help me lose weight like I
know I'm fat. And he said, Youknow what? You'll feel so
embarrassed by yourself, thatyou'll find a way to lose
weight.
Ouch, right? So here my fatherit is. He definitely has. I was
(07:30):
never told I've struggled withmy weight my whole life. You
know, I'm Italian. I feel like Ihave weight gaining genes and an
inborn love of food, but I nevergot overt messages from my
father, really, as a child.
However, I got sub textual andsubliminal messages everywhere.
Yes, I went to a very smallCatholic school, and everybody
(07:55):
was like mostly Irish,especially in my younger years,
and they were all real thin andlike blonde. I mean, I know I'm
blonde now, but obviously it'stotally fake, and I was the only
one I
Unknown (08:09):
love you for admitting Yes, of course, I
Colette Fehr (08:12):
don't think I'm full. In anyway,
Laura Bowman (08:13):
I'm all natural.
Colette, speak for yourself,except
Colette Fehr (08:17):
you, but like when everyone around you is thin, and
my mother was always overweight,and interestingly, didn't buy
into diet culture and didn'tseem to care. But I so
internalized the message ofculture that I thought it was
bad that she was overweight, andI wanted her to be upset about
(08:38):
it and do something about it,sure, which is so messed up. So
I think I have been on a dietsince about age 11, right, my
entire life, and I'm currentlyon diet shots like Zep bound,
which is an alternative toozempic. It's been a lifelong
struggle. I don't hate myself. Idon't have the self loathing
(09:01):
piece, but I do have the desireto be thin, and it is so hard
wired. So I'd love to hear moreabout, obviously, the way you
conceptualize this. But I'm alsocurious, since Laura and I are
Gen Xers, how do you see theyounger generation as truly
(09:21):
conceptualizing what's healthy,and is it really different from
our old bad messages, or is itjust new language and still just
as sick and fucked
Laura Bowman (09:33):
up health and wellness? Well, to
Nicole Swartz (09:36):
to be determined, I don't know, let's talk again
in 30 years. But from what we'refrom what Millennials are doing
with our small children. So mykids are five and eight, right?
I can't speak so much aboutwell, let me backtrack. I'll
start there, and then I'll, I'llget to some of my Gen Z ers that
I've either worked with, or mylike, babysitters that I spend
(09:57):
time with, and what I'm seeing.
But I think there's a. Shift inlanguage for sure, right? So
there's rules that we have whenI say we I'm talking me and my
husband that we've decided,right? Our kids will never hear
us say something negative aboutourselves in general. It just
won't happen, whether that's ourbodies, whether that's any kind
of self deprecation, because Ithink that that is so
internalized in that momentthey're hearing so much of what
(10:18):
we're saying that goes rightdown to setting boundaries even
with grandparents, right? So wehave our Boomer grandparents,
and they love to look at my sonand say, You're so skinny. And
I'm like, like, Nope, don't dothat, because skinny to them is
a compliment, but it's still acomment on a body, and that can
be internalized and shameful.
(10:40):
The same way saying your fat canbe totally so there's helping
set those boundaries. We talk alot with our kids just about
bodies are different. Andthey'll ask, Why is your you
know, your belly is squishierthan mine. And in a moment where
someone could say, like, Oh,your belly is so much cuter than
mine, I'm like, Yeah, my bellyis squishier because I had you,
(11:02):
like, that's where you grew. Andhe's like, Oh, it's so
comfortable. I love laying onit. So to me, that's a beautiful
moment where I'm not teachinghim that my squishy belly is
worse than his cute, littleflat, tight belly that he has
right now. I'm also honoringthat. Yeah, my body has changed
and it's different. And this islike a core memory that my son's
(11:24):
making with me. Maybe he'llremember one day that we
struggled in bed, and mom's softbelly made me feel happy, right?
So those two things are anexample there of here's the
language that we're using that'sdifferent, and here's also where
my healing comes in. So insteadof me saying, Oh my gosh. He's
pointing out that my belly issquishy, and that makes me feel
shameful. I'm like, Oh, he'scomfortable on me. And this is
(11:47):
like a sweet moment, and that'sin the bucket of healing for me
with my body stuff. So that'spart of I feel like I really
could just go on and on. There'sso many examples of how we're
doing this with our smallchildren. I think Gen Z, what
I'm seeing is so much more bodypositivity, right? And this
might open up a conversationabout, you know, when we see,
(12:10):
you know, just the way that theydress, like when I was that age,
crop top on, I would never wear,like little shorts, but they're
just out there in their bodiesand they're comfortable and
they're happy, and they're notexperiencing the same things I
think that my generation did interms of, Oh, you don't have the
body to wear that. They justwear what they want. So I agree,
(12:33):
shifting
Colette Fehr (12:35):
to me, it's one of the I mean, I have two Gen Z
daughters. They're both incollege, and I think there's a
lot with Gen Z that makes mewant to bang my head against a
wall, but this is something Ithink they really got right. I
notice, especially they both goto college in Florida where
everyone walks around halfnaked, 24/7, 365, days a year.
(12:57):
And you're right. Regardless ofbody type, they are in,
basically, clothes that looklike bathing suits, shorts that
end at the, you know, thigh,Marc, crease
Laura Bowman (13:07):
of your thigh,
Colette Fehr (13:08):
and you're amazing. I love that because I
would not in middle school, getup from my lounge chair and get
in the pool in front of boys andbig T shirt covering me. I'd get
in the pool with a T shirt whenmy body started developing.
Sure, it's just makes me sohappy for them, but body
Laura Bowman (13:29):
standards seem to be changing too, right? Like, I
mean, I grew up with J Crewmagazines, like, I wanted to be
a J Crew model, which, like,they didn't want they looked,
they were just like, had, didn'thave butts or anything. And I
was like, oh yeah. And I'm notbuilt that way. And then
somewhere along the way, likecurvy became really sexy. And
I'm like, when did that happen?
But it feels like there's achanging body standard as well,
(13:52):
absolutely.
Nicole Swartz (13:56):
And I think we can credit, you know, say what
you want about Lizzo. I knowshe's had a rough go recently,
but you know, I think we have tolook at people like that, who
are unapologetically who theyare, and stand in their bodies
and they don't hide behindanything. And I think for
millennials, I can remember inthe heyday of the early 2000s
(14:16):
and being in the checkout lineat the grocery store and looking
at the magazine covers, andthere were pictures of Jessica
Simpson, who has an incrediblynormal looking body at that
time, and it would be labeled,she gained weight, she's fat,
she's this, she's that. Soagain, it's that moment of even
if we were not getting thatovert messaging about our own
bodies, of course, at 14, I'mlooking at that and I'm saying,
(14:38):
well, that doesn't look thatdifferent from my body, so I
guess I'm fat too. And, youknow, that's another example,
too, of the way that we use theword fat, right? I'm trying to
teach my kids that fat issomething that our bodies have,
right? And is also just thedescriptor. It's okay to say
fat, right? I think all of us,even me as the millennial, with
(14:58):
you guys, fat probably makes a.
Like, sit up a littlestraighter, right? Like, if
someone uses that to describesomeone, I try to teach my kids
that's just a word that we useto describe things, and it
doesn't have to be a dirty wordthat we avoid. So just another
example of changing thelanguage, right? Some bodies
have more fat on them, and wewould describe those bodies as
fat. They're still beautiful.
(15:21):
Yeah, right. I know
Colette Fehr (15:23):
it just feels like an insult, because in my
upbringing, calling someone fatwas definitely about the worst
thing you could say about Yeah,you'd almost call them a
murderer, derogatory
Laura Bowman (15:36):
and disqualifying.
Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (15:39):
I know that's a big push. Though, in the world
that I'm in, especially with ourchildren, is trying to teach
them that that word doesn't meanthat it's just a descriptor, but
it's hard for me and all thework I've done, and clearly this
is my platform. I still, even inbooks we read, I used to skip
the word fat. You know, in thechildren's books, they use it a
lot, and I would skip it becauseI would think, like, I don't
(16:00):
want them to learn that word.
And now I'm learning okay, it'sokay. They can understand, you
know, I can show them on theirbodies where they have fat on
their bodies, and it's doesn'thave to be what we know it to
be. Yeah, right, yeah. And it
Colette Fehr (16:13):
seems that this change in cultural acceptance,
because bodies have become, youknow, more diverse and accepted
as such, even though we knowit's still there, right? And
there's still a lot of misogynyin our culture and objectifying
and judging women. And you know,even at 51 when I lose weight,
(16:34):
people comment, and it's like,now you're good, right? Oh,
yeah, right. It's always seen asthe positive, being overweight
still has a correlation withlike, letting yourself go, being
lazy, being less than but I dothink we're shifting it, and I
think this is a big part of whyGen Z doesn't feel and carry the
(16:55):
shame. And I know in my own workwhat's changed for me. I mean,
I, too, will always be workingon this, but over the years,
I've been able to really let goof the shame piece. I feel like,
almost completely, you know, Idon't, yeah, sometimes I catch
certain glimpses of my body andI'm like, Oh, wow, that's not
(17:18):
what I thought it looked like.
Yeah, what I wish. But there's afundamental acceptance. I don't
hide. It's one of the reasonsthat I am personally committed
to being very open about beingon the weight loss shots,
because I've noticed, yeah, andI feel like women carry shame
about that, even though so manypeople are doing it. And once I
tell people I'm doing the shots,then other people are opening up
(17:43):
to me, but they seem somortified by it, as if they have
to hide it. And I don't want itto be that kind of thing. Yeah,
yeah. I
Nicole Swartz (17:53):
think that that's part of what my that's a part of
my coaching program, is that wecan, we can let go of the shame,
and we can love ourselves andstill want to change how we
look, right? I think it's allabout motivation for me. If it's
motivation to change your bodybecause of just how much you
hate yourself and you thinkyou'll be more valuable if
you're smaller, that's adifferent conversation for me
(18:14):
than if you're in a place whereyou love yourself and you're at
the point where you're like,Well, I would feel a little
better if my clothes just wenton my body a little bit easier,
right? Or
Colette Fehr (18:25):
I don't fit into any of my clothes. Yeah, that's
right,
Nicole Swartz (18:28):
it's a problem.
Yeah, that's a terrible feeling,right? But I think that it's
where's the motivation to changeyour body coming from? Is it
from self loathing and shame andfeeling like you are more
valuable to society in a smallerbody, or is it truly your
comfort? Those are two differentissues for me, right?
Colette Fehr (18:46):
I agree, and I feel like you just articulated
exactly the shift in me fromwhen I was younger, and it was
like I have to starve to bedesired by my male partner and
seen as valuable in society, andnow it's like, I want to be
healthy and feel good about howI look and feel good in my
clothes. And also, it doesn'thave to be perfect. My goal
(19:07):
weight is about 20 to 25 poundshigher than I weighed when I was
young, and that's my goalweight. So it's a much
healthier, more balanced andself accepting place to be, and
it feels a lot better inside.
Nicole Swartz (19:23):
I love that, and that's such a good mental
checkpoint for anyone who'sstruggling, right? If, if we're
in the place where we're tryingto become smaller, what's the
internal monolog looking likeevery day? Is it what you kind
of just described, or is it thatshame spiral and the self
loathing and the idea that youkind of want to punish yourself,
right? Oh, I ate this last nighttoday, and I have to go do the
(19:44):
elliptical for an hour. Thatkind of stuff is a red flag,
right? Yeah. I
Laura Bowman (19:48):
mean, like, eating issues have, like, the same
etiology, right? Like, I mean,like, are the same cause. Just
for our listener, there is likethat I see that some like. My
daughter will be real, is reallyopen about this. Like, she has
more of, like, kind of almost anOCD relationship that she can
get in with food and exercise,where it's, like, very
(20:10):
compulsive and upset, you know,obsessive compulsive, and it's a
very tight sort of anxiety loop,whereas, like, somebody who
binges, and I'm not saying thatall these things don't kind of
all land in the same place, butpeople who binge can sometimes
really be trying to self sootheand cope and, like, numb, and
that's and sometimes our habits,like stem from a different
(20:32):
place, or our ways of coping. Doyou deal with that in your
coaching program, like diff likethe different ways these things
really show up for people, sure,
Nicole Swartz (20:42):
yeah. So for me, specifically with the program,
there's a certain line in thesand that I have to draw,
because my coaching program,just to make this understandable
for people who are listening, isoutside of the therapy world for
red tape reasons. For me to beable to treat people outside of
the state of Florida where I'mlicensed, right? So I have to be
(21:03):
careful with what comes up inthe coaching. If I'm working
with someone and I see somethingthat really starts to cross over
into more of a disordered eatingstandpoint, I'm going to be
talking about, hey, let's get atherapist on board to help us
really work out some of that.
But I'm absolutely talking withpeople about, what are we using
food for? Right? In a more, Iguess, in a less, a less
(21:23):
pathological way. And I knowthat that word makes a lot of
sense to the three of us in theroom, but what I mean by that
is, if our food habits have lessto do with something on a deeper
level, right, something that'snot necessarily quite as
threatening as really seriousdisordered eating could be
right, but, yeah, we aredefinitely talking about, are we
using food to soothe? How elsecan we soothe in those moments?
(21:46):
And what are the steps we cantake in the moment where the
urge to, oh, I feel stressed, Iwant to reach for something,
Hey, how can we pause and sitwith that and think about, what
else could we do? How do wehandle, you know, a craving,
sometimes we just have to honorit too, right? It's not always
about controlling it. I think abig piece of what I want to
teach people is that it's okayto eat emotionally, as long as
(22:07):
that's not our only copingskill. I think that's where we
get stuck, right? If that's theonly thing we reach for in a
moment, that's a problem. Butsometimes there's space and it's
culturally appropriate to reachfor comfort. Colette, I'm also
Italian, so hello. I mean,that's when I was a kid. The
first thing, right? If you'resick, if you're sad, it's like,
(22:28):
What are we eating? Right?
That's not always bad.
Sometimes, really, that touchesyour heart in a way that's
nostalgic. So I'm not out heretrying to get people to stop
doing that, we just have to lookat, what else should we and
could we be doing in thosemoments?
Colette Fehr (22:46):
Right? So it's kind of like, you know, when
people drink socially andmoderately, truly, moderately,
and they might enjoy a bottle ofwine with a group of friends out
on a Friday night, versus everytime I'm stressed about work, I
come home and I kind of turn mynervous system down with two or
three drinks, and I rely on thatcoping mechanism, and it becomes
(23:10):
rigid and entrenched. Same thingwith food, because food is
pleasure and joy and bonding andcelebration. It's meant to taste
good and bring us together. And,you know, the thought of a life
of like, plain lettuce andboiled chicken, I'd rather just
die now, yeah,
Nicole Swartz (23:30):
right, right, or there's a bigger body, right?
Yes, that's part of theconversation too, that people
get to of, like, okay, you know,there's certain people who are
just genetically, naturally thinpeople, and they don't have to
work hard at it. And thenthere's people who aren't. And
sometimes it's like, you knowwhat? I just want to enjoy
myself, and if that means I haveto buy the bigger pants, that's
(23:52):
what I'm going to do. And youknow, that's the space that I
want to help more people get to.
Is the acceptance of feeling.
You know, you mentioned goalweight Colette, and I think I
want people to chase a feeling.
And that's not me shaming you.
I'm happy for you. Yeah, that'swhat feels good for you. But I
also want to encourage people,instead of a number, can we
(24:13):
chase a feeling? Right? Whetherthat's being able to put on the
first thing you pick in yourcloset and not change three more
times? Because we all have thosedates right, where it's like,
oh, I can't find anything thatfeels good on my body. So
chasing a feeling, whatever thatlooks like for someone,
Colette Fehr (24:29):
yeah, and my goal weight is correlated to that
feeling I love. It's where I'mmedically healthy. I don't want
to be medically overweight, andI know some people see that
differently, but my personalstance is, there is data
correlated with mortality andbeing overweight, and I
personally don't want to go thatroad, although I'm currently
(24:52):
there, you know, I'm not thatoverweight and I'm almost obese.
Well, there. I mean, I've lost alittle bit of weight on this
diet drug, but when I started, Iwas like five pounds away from
being considered obese, right?
So I'm, I'm looking to be at aplace where I can enjoy life and
food and, you know, feelreasonably comfortable and like
(25:17):
good about how I look and not bemedically overweight and find a
very sane and balanced way Idon't want to live anymore with
food on my mind. Yeah, what didI eat? And like you said, when
you said getting on theelliptical, I mean that was,
like my whole life when I wasyoung, calories in, calories
out. Did I work out, did Iovereat and that whole thing? I
(25:41):
don't want to live like thatanymore. So I love what you're
saying about chasing a feelingand finding balance and self
love.
Laura Bowman (25:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Unknown (25:52):
Can, can
Laura Bowman (25:52):
we talk about though? I mean, how much do you
do with the fact that we live ina culture that is, like very
much stacked against us foodwise? Yeah. I mean, even if
you've never had a problem withfood, food is going to find have
a problem with you. Like, Imean, it's these addictive
substances in food. It's just, Imean, what do they say we have
(26:13):
an obesogenic culture? Like, itjust, it is, it is a process,
yeah? Like, all the processedfood, the seed oils, the, you
know, a Chick fil A on everystraight corner, it's, yeah,
it's hard, like, at what pointdo we have to begin to make,
like, Sidestep all of thatstuff, to have peace with, with
(26:33):
our bodies or our health oranything? Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (26:36):
I think I come from a specific lens of
understanding that there's afear mongering piece to some of
the food stuff that's out there,an account that I point people
to. A lot on Instagram, we'veheard of food babe, and I just
tell my clients to do yourresearch on what food babe
shares. And there's anotheraccount called Food Science Babe
(27:00):
and this person started theaccount to sort of debunk the
stuff that food babe pushes,which is a lot of the seed oils
and that whole realm of things.
So I try to look for reallyscience based information,
right? We're looking forevidence based research to back
some of the things that it'seasy to get on social media and
be inundated with propaganda,especially like in these current
(27:21):
times, right? So we have to becareful with what we're
absorbing and what we'rebelieving based on what somebody
just tells us without doing ourown research. But all of that to
say, I think everything comesdown to balance, right? The
foods that are the mostaddictive, so to speak of are,
of course, are not. It's noone's reaching for the Apple,
because you just get, like, stopthinking about wanting an apple
(27:42):
or broccoli, right? It's thestuff that is processed. Never
had that experience, right?
Colette Fehr (27:48):
Yeah? Me either, never binged on Apples. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (27:52):
right, right. So of course, it's going to be the
processed foods, it's going tobe the sugar, it's going to be
those things. So the approachthat I teach is have what you
want and add what you need. Soif you're having a craving for
potato chips, have the potatochips have a reasonable serving
size of them. What are we goingto add to that plate to help our
(28:14):
body feel nourished andsatisfied? So we're going to
make sure that it's balancedright. So there is a nutrition
lens, and I am not anutritionist or a dietitian, so
this is where I encourage peopleto make sure they're getting
that support in other places.
But we're gonna add fiber, we'regonna add fat, we're gonna add
protein, and we're gonna havewhat we want. We're gonna add
what we need. So like that, amentally that feels better, but
(28:35):
it's also helping our bodyprocess that in a way where
we're keeping our health andcheck too?
Laura Bowman (28:41):
Yeah, I like that,
Colette Fehr (28:42):
making sure you get the nutrition, but you don't
have to deprive yourself of thepotato chips Exactly. So I'm
curious, and for our listeners,what do you you in the coaching
realm? You must still addresssome of that inner monolog,
inner critic stuff, I imaginetotally what suggestions do you
(29:06):
have for people on how to startthis journey of moving from
shame to genuine acceptance? I
Nicole Swartz (29:12):
think one of the most powerful tips that I give
people is start paying attentionto how you're talking to
yourself. I think we are all soused to our inner voice that we
don't even hear it. So if wespend some time really
observing, what are the thingswe say to ourselves every time
we look in the mirror, and I asksomebody, would you say that to
your best friend? And it putspeople back on their heels every
(29:33):
time. And I think that's areally powerful place for
someone to start, because it'seasy to do, right? We just have
to pay attention and mayberecord those thoughts and ask
ourselves, would we ever saythese things to someone we love,
and how do we start treatingourselves the way we treat the
people we love?
Colette Fehr (29:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because we can be
our own worst critic, and mostof the time, people find that
they would not say yeah, thosethings to anyone. Even a
stranger they can't stand orsomething, sure, right? And
Nicole Swartz (30:04):
as far as all of the shame goes, that's there's a
lot of unpacking there aboutwhat have the messages around
food in our bodies been ourwhole lives? And it's going to
be different for everyone. Andmy program is tailored
specifically to each person. Idon't have a curriculum that
everybody gets. When we have ourfirst session, we go through,
What have your experiences been?
What are your goals, so that Ican tailor it specifically for
people? So it's hard for me toanswer that question, because
(30:26):
everybody's journey will lookdifferent with me, but we're
really going to look at what wasyour messaging around food. If
you grew up in a house thatnever had sugar, we have to
learn how to have sugar, becausethat's part of having a healthy,
balanced diet. It's okay to wantto have ice cream or candy or
whatever the thing is. And howdo we realize that, like our
(30:46):
food doesn't determine ourmorality, we are not good or bad
today based on what any of useat? That's it just doesn't work
that way. We've been taughtthat, but that's not what it is,
right? So those are just acouple of examples to answer the
question,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
yeah, getting away from the good and bad,
Laura Bowman (31:04):
all or nothing. Do you find that some, like, some
people really struggle to, like,live in the middle space there.
I mean, I think I've seen that.
We see that in therapy all thetime, people struggle to walk
the middle path. But just evenwith food that like, if they
begin with with something thatit they have a hard time with
the breaks,
Nicole Swartz (31:25):
yeah, and I think it's about, it's kind of like an
exposure therapy, right? If youhave someone who really has
never allowed themselves to eatoutside of what they deem to be
good, it's very scary, right?
It's kind of like working withwith people who suffer from
anorexia, right? All of thosemeals are exposure therapy in
the beginning to work throughthe discomfort that comes up. So
you know, it's starting andstarting out small, if need be
(31:49):
right, but just understandingthat adding in something that
you deem to be bad a we have tochange the thought patterns
around it. Food is neither goodnor bad, right? Food is just
food. Some food is morenutritious than others. Some
foods do things differently inour bodies than others. This is
an example of some of thelanguage I use with my own
children, of making sure thatthey're not going to grow up in
(32:12):
a house where things are good orbad. So I'm that's part of the
coaching I'm doing is, how do wemove away from that language
where we can understand howchicken breasts reacts in our
body versus a cookie, right? Andit's not that it's good or bad.
They're doing different thingsin our body,
Colette Fehr (32:29):
right? And a cookie doesn't have nutritional
value, or at least not much. Imean, it just doesn't. That's
not labeling it. It's just thereality, whereas a chicken
breast does,
Nicole Swartz (32:42):
right? And those are the conversations. Is okay,
the protein is going to keep usfull, it's going to give us
energy, it's going to help ourmuscles grow, right? And this is
the kind of the verbiage I useon my kids. So obviously, with
adults and clients, it's alittle different, right? But,
okay, yes, the cookie is goingto give you fast energy. We know
that it's also, you know, thereare foods that feed and are
(33:03):
nutritious to our soul, right?
And having a cookie is that, andthat needs to be considered.
That's part of breaking the dietculture is understanding that
we're not just eating for thegoal of being smaller. And
Laura Bowman (33:15):
sometimes you eat to feed your soul, and that's
fine, and not getting stuckthere that like, it's like,
okay, maybe today I ate andlike, soothe myself, but
tomorrow I'm gonna eat to reallynourish my body. And that going
back and forth there is, like,is totally normal and fine,
Nicole Swartz (33:34):
totally and every day, especially as women, we
have to look at, okay, where arewe in our cycle? Our hormones
have so much to do with how weview our bodies and how we feel
and what our hunger cues are forthe day. So there's flexibility.
And I tell everybody, this isnot a linear process. We're not
like up, up, up, and then weplateau and we're perfect
forever. It's never going to bethat we have to anticipate that
(33:55):
there are going to be days thatare harder and easier for all of
those reasons, right?
Colette Fehr (34:00):
And at menopause, things change hormonally in a
big way, perimenopause, and, youknow, things can really slow
down if you don't keep up yourmuscle mass. So there's just so
many factors, but it feels likefinding the right path for you.
You know may be different foreveryone, what their goals are
(34:20):
and what's healthy for them, butthat it really is about getting
rid of that self loathing piece,yes, and re narrating the way we
talk about food and ourphysicality.
Nicole Swartz (34:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, I think thesecond half of my program
focuses on, you know,specifically for moms and how to
do this with our kids. And, youknow, it was funny last week
with Halloween, and I had thisrealization, you know, we've,
we've never put candy or sweetsor anything on a pedestal with
our kids. That's another pieceof what I teach people is, you
know, at dinner, we feed dessertwith the meat. Ill, which really
(34:59):
like, trips up my Boomer mom,who's like, you can't they're
gonna eat the cookie first. AndI'm like, okay, and then watch,
they're also going to eat theirfood with it. And you know, I
think in that moment, what we'reteaching our kids is you don't
have to earn the cookie. Youdon't have to ignore your
fullness cue because you want tohave the dessert. So we've
always just had that approach.
(35:20):
So we had Halloween, whichbrings up a lot of stress and
anxiety for parents, becauseit's like, Ah, so much sugar and
what's going to happen. So wecame home Halloween night, they
ate some of their candy. Thenext day, they go to school,
they come home, they have yet toask me to eat any of their
candy. I have it. It's here.
It's in the pantry. They knowwhere it is. They haven't asked
for it once. And I think that,the proof of how the approach
(35:41):
works, because they have so muchexposure to it that there's not
an obsession about it. So thatwas, like a really proud moment
for me to be like, Okay, this isworking.
Colette Fehr (35:53):
See, I don't remember too. I mean, on the
flip side of all the dietculture years ago, at least for
me in the 70s, I mean, I couldeat however much candy I wanted
it was. I never got messagesthat like candy was bad. No one
controlled my Halloween candylike it almost shocks me,
(36:13):
although it shouldn't, to hearthat moms are freaking out about
Halloween. Sometimes, I thinkthese younger generations, it's
just exhausting how stressed outthey are about every freaking
thing. Like, right? Yeah, don'twe have more, don't you have
bigger problems in your lifethan how many pieces of, like,
peanut butter cups your kidfreaking eats?
Unknown (36:33):
I mean, I'm sorry. I
Colette Fehr (36:34):
just find it like, I mean, I would eat like, four
Reese's peanut butter cups for asnack and, like, an RC Cola, and
then dinner three hours later.
And, like, it didn't kill me,you know, yeah.
Nicole Swartz (36:46):
And I think what's interesting is that
somewhere between the 70s andthe 90s is where the shift
happened. And, you know, was itthe the fat free movement?
There's, you know, snack? Well,oh yeah, I remember the Devil's
Food cookies, my mom has myfavorite, I know, yeah, right.
(37:08):
So dry, and they were very dry,but
Laura Bowman (37:15):
freebies, right?
Nicole Swartz (37:17):
And all of that that really took off in the late
80s, early 90s. And then, ofcourse, you can't ignore the
capitalism involved in dietculture, right? Totally. Just
preying on people to spend theirmoney was very nuanced, very
layered. We could get into alldifferent conversations about
that, but,
Colette Fehr (37:36):
right, yeah, right. And the research shows
that most people will return totheir natural weight, because
there is something to geneticsand set points and so this like
struggle to beat yourself up fornot being something you think
you should be. I mean, it's sucha waste of your energy, your
beautiful energy in life.
Nicole Swartz (37:57):
I agree, right?
Yeah, that's so well said,
Laura Bowman (38:01):
you know, and I have definitely, over the years,
because I have, like, reallyearly memories of going
downstairs to my the kid. My momis a great cook, and so is my
grandmother, and they'd alwaysbake, and I, like, took the all
the icing off the cake, like, I,like, just licked it all. I
didn't, I guess I didn't realizethat was, like, not a cool thing
to do. But I did that. And Ijust remember being so hooked
(38:25):
into sugar, like when they myaunt would make brownies, I
would just, like do laps throughthe kitchen until they were
gone, yeah. And to this day, ifI get started on sugar like
that, it can just be this, like,gerbil on a wheel thing, Me too.
Me too. And it feels very likebiological for me, like Colette
and I were talking about howthat just feels something in my
(38:47):
system. I don't have a ton ofshame about it. And now, when I
kind of made it there go downthat, that rabbit hole, I'm
like, oh, here I go. Well, watchme go, you know, and it slide
all the way to the bottom, andI'll make better decisions the
next day. But I realized thateven getting started that like,
there's not a lot of room forbalance for me with with certain
(39:08):
foods, it's like, it's like,it's just gonna take me
somewhere weird, okay, butthat's having awareness of my
own. Yeah, mess. I don't have alot of Judge, shame or judgment
around it. It is
Colette Fehr (39:19):
with me. Neither May, neither. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (39:21):
right. And that's that's great, and that might be
the case for someone like you.
And then in another case, havingregular exposure to sugar to,
you know, avoid that feelingyou're describing could be an
approach that works, right? Ifyou were my client, and you were
describing that to me, and youwere to say to me, I really want
to work on this, I would say,let's try to have it every day
and see where we can get withthe regular exposure to it, to
(39:44):
sort of retrain thoseconnections in your brain that
make it feel so out of control,
Laura Bowman (39:51):
right? Like, but the message is really
experiment, find what works foryou and see like where you land.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly,
Nicole Swartz (40:00):
because if it's not an issue, just like any
client, forget, outside of mycoaching, just in the therapy
world, if it's not a problem forsomeone who am I to sit there
and tell them, let's work on it,right? We all get to choose
those things in our therapyprocess. So I agree, if it's not
a problem for someone, it's notworth spending time on, right? I
think that's the humanexperience. We're all so
different that way, that'slovely. So
Colette Fehr (40:22):
yeah, and I'm glad you said that, Laura, because
it's taken me a long time to tofigure out even within the
broader umbrella, let's say, thehealthier version of like what
we're labeling as not sohealthy, diet culture, trying to
find the ways to be healthy andto live in balance that there
are so many things that soundreally good and are good but
(40:45):
just don't work for me, thatI've had to really figure out
what is healthy gonna look likefor me, and also accepting that
certain things the way my systemruns biologically. And I mean,
I've done tons of work on thisover the year. Years, I've gone
to all kinds of like, differenttherapies and programs and self
(41:06):
explorations to try to figure itout. And, you know, realizing
that certain things are alwaysgoing to be a challenge for me.
And instead of wishing theyweren't, or beating myself up,
like limiting sugar, but havingit in moderation. You know, I
have had to find other ways tocope with that reality. And it's
(41:27):
not like, oh, it's bad and Ican't have it. That's not the
answer, either, but it isrecognizing that I have, I
believe, biologically, with likeleptin and ghrelin, these
hormones that control hunger andsatiety. I really believe it's
always a struggle for me once Iget certain processed food,
(41:48):
that's all I want. I don't wantnutritious things, and I've
never taken those things off thetable or been like, No, I can't
have them or anything like that.
And this is part of what for me,I really like about this diet
shot that I never or whateveryou want to call it. I never
thought I would do, because Iwas scared of what else it could
do to my body. But I have tosay, it's so nice. I'm still
(42:11):
hungry. I'm losing weight veryslowly, like a half a pound,
maybe a week, sometimes a pound,very, very slowly, and I'm not
dieting. But what's been so niceand freeing is that I do eat in
a balanced way. I can have alittle bit of dessert and feel
satisfied, and then I don't wantanymore. And it's not constantly
(42:34):
screaming at me in my brain.
More and more and more. It usedto be that if there was, like,
cookies or brownies in mypantry, it would be like, all I
could think about, and theywould be gone within 24 hours,
because I would just be sopinging in my brain. And now my
(42:57):
husband even is like, wow, thatshot is crazy. He's like, we've
had this, this and this, and youhaven't even eaten it. It's
like, more like what youdescribe with your kids and the
candy, like, I just have some,and then I'm good. So for me,
it's really been so great, and Ican see for somebody else that
this medication could bring themto a psychological place that
(43:19):
maybe wouldn't be healthy. Butfor me, it's been really, really
freeing and good, yeah, yeah.
And
Nicole Swartz (43:25):
that's a lot of the feedback we're hearing from
people with food noise, right?
If that's a thing that peopleexperience, that's just what
you're talking about, that voicethat just won't go away, that
the all of the GLP ones are kindof helping quiet that and allow
to figure out, yeah. And, youknow, I think there's a
misconception in the anti dietworld and the intuitive eating
world that this means thependulum swings the other way.
(43:46):
And you could just, it's like afree for all, and that's, that's
not the thing. That's a bigmisconception. Nobody is
teaching that, right? It's justa matter of really removing the
good versus the bad. I thinkthat that's really one of the
pillars of what the anti dietmovement is trying to do. We're
not out here staying trash yourentire diet, right? It's to live
(44:07):
within balance and to allowyourself to have those foods
without tying your morality toit, like
Laura Bowman (44:16):
tying your morality to it, yeah, or your
worth, or
Nicole Swartz (44:19):
your worth, right? Yeah, exactly right.
Like, oh, I had a good daytoday, because I ate within
whatever parameters I had in mybrain. It's not healthy, right?
That's not where we
Laura Bowman (44:30):
should be finding our values to
Colette Fehr (44:32):
be. My dialog, like in my 20s and my teens and
20s, and that's the part that isso corrosive for us, yeah,
Laura Bowman (44:41):
and I'm glad that we're finally realizing that
commenting on people's bodies. Imean, I was, I was funny. I go
to the gym with my daughter. Mydaughter's the one that
struggled with an eatingdisorder, but does really well
with exercise and eating now,but she's, you know, she's at a
lower part of her weight. Rangernow, and the trainer comes up to
(45:01):
her and is like, you look great.
Did you lose weight? And I'mjust like, cringing, looking at
this guy, thinking, What are youdoing, man, like you don't know.
Like you have no idea what, whoyou're talking to. And like,
this is not appropriate. Likeand all that does. She says, you
know, Mom, when people see that,I feel like, Oh, I'm doing well,
and I need to, like, keep up myadvantage in the world. That's
(45:25):
what that ticks off in her Sure.
We need to understand thattalking the commenting on
people's bodies is just gottago, yeah. It's gotta go, yeah.
Nicole Swartz (45:39):
I think that it just feeds the monster of, okay,
smaller is better. Make sure Istay this way to whatever the
consequence of that is, right?
It can be incredibly damaging.
And we have to just understandthat that might have been a
compliment 20 or 30 years ago,and nowadays it's a little more
complicated than that.
Laura Bowman (45:56):
Yeah, yes, and
Colette Fehr (45:58):
it should be. It should be, I hope that goes by
the wayside, particularly mencommenting on women's bodies.
Just don't find something don'tabout a woman's you know what
she has to say to compliment, ifyou really are so dead set on
complimenting someone, right?
Don't make it about physicalappearance, and obviously for
(46:21):
men too. I mean, I don't makemean to make this only like a
heterosexually normative thing,but it's a huge problem in
society. And I one of the thingsI love about getting older is
less eyeballs of men and lesscommentary as I can become
invisible, which I personallyfind very freeing. Yeah. And I
(46:41):
just think it's like, not aYeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't go,
yeah, that's my PA.
Laura Bowman (46:52):
Yeah. I
Nicole Swartz (46:52):
appreciate you bringing up the heteronormative
part. I work with a lot of LGBTQclients in my private practice,
and particularly with the men,that's a very common thread. The
body stuff is there is such ahigh standard in that community
for what they should look like,and almost all of them that I
have treated have had some typeof body dysmorphia there. So,
(47:13):
you know, it's important that weshine a light on that too. It's
not just women. It's not justright the heteronormative, it's
happening everywhere. So I'mglad that you, you said that,
Colette, thank you. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (47:24):
because I can only speak to my own personal
experience. But it's certainlynot unique to this the
heterosexual Avenue, sure. Yeah,and I think just in general,
let's stop commenting onpeople's bodies and stop hyper
fixating on our own in thoseold, unhealthy, messaged ways,
(47:44):
and start sure embracing ahealthier way of being with our
bodies and food. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (47:51):
absolutely, the standards have to just be
adjusted in a lot of differentplaces. That's the bottom line
there.
Laura Bowman (47:57):
And I love the work you're doing with your
kids. I mean, I I so needed thatin my family. Like, I mean, I
internalized everything I gotfrom my mom. And, you know, even
now, I have to, like, catchmyself from doing the evaluative
comments of like, Oh, you lookso great. Or like, shut up,
Laura. It's like, no, like, it'swe don't need to evaluate our
(48:21):
kids
Nicole Swartz (48:21):
are, it's every day. It's it's being really
mindful and just having somereally some standards across the
board that we don't use food asa reward. We don't celebrate
with food too much, right? Theidea of, oh, you had a bad day
at school, let's go get icecream, or, Oh, you're you had a
great report card. Let's go getice cream. That doesn't exist in
our family. We just go get icecream because it's Sunday and it
(48:44):
sounds good, right, right, youknow. And they're, I think
they're just little buildingblocks of things you can do that
start to really change the wholeapproach. And, you know, again,
I'll always use my own kids asmy example, but we do go get ice
cream and they throw away twothirds of the cup of ice cream,
and they're like, I've hadenough, and that's it, and it
goes in the trash. And, youknow, you think about other kids
(49:07):
who really struggle with, youknow, hiding food, sneaking
food, things like that. It'sinspiring for me to see that
what I'm doing is working, and Iwant everyone to be doing it,
because it's going to be whatmoves the needle for this
generation. So, yeah,
Colette Fehr (49:22):
yeah, and makes it just healthier to be in balance.
I love it. Nicole, thank you somuch. And you know, before we
let you go, can you tell ourlisteners how they can contact
you? Sure?
Nicole Swartz (49:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
So the best place to find all ofmy information is on Instagram.
My handle is anti diet,underscore therapist. Right
there in my bio, you'll have alink to my application where you
can read all about my programand figure out how else to
contact me, whether that'sthrough DMS, that's the best
place to find me, and I'm happyto answer any questions if
anyone reaches out. So, Oh,that's
Colette Fehr (49:58):
wonderful. Thanks.
So. Much great work. Yeah, thank
Nicole Swartz (50:02):
you. I really appreciate the time and the
space to talk about this withyou guys today. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (50:08):
we're so grateful.
Thank you. It's been a wonderfulconversation, and thank you
everyone for listening asalways, if you liked what you
heard today, we hope you do.
Please write us a review andshare this episode with your
friends, and we will be backnext week with more insights
from the couch. You.
All right, welcome back, everybody. Thanks for
listening. We're here atinsights from the couch, and
Laura and I have a wonderfulguest today, Nicole Swartz, and
we're going to be talking aboutbreaking free from diet culture
and having a healthyrelationship with food and your
body something that is alifelong process for most of us,
(00:25):
women, thanks to society andYes, welcome Nicole. I want to
give a little bit of info onyou, but just to say welcome to
we're so glad to have you. Thankyou so much for having me and
acknowledging how important thistopic is because I'm obviously
very passionate about it, so Iappreciate you giving me space
(00:45):
to be here. Thank you. Yeah,we're thrilled to have you that
you're a licensed therapist whospecializes in helping
individuals here heal fromgenerational diet, culture,
trauma, beautiful, and thatyou're committed to empowering
clients to develop a positiverelationship with their bodies
and food, and you understand theimportance of breaking the
(01:06):
cycle, and you really offerguidance to those who wish to
create a healthier environment,both for themselves and their
children and families. Yeah, itis, and it's layered, right? I
think that my approach, youknow, I think without hijacking
the moment and jumping right in,you know, I look at moms very
(01:28):
specifically my generation. I'ma millennial. I think we're just
the first generation who's sortof saying, This doesn't feel
good, I want to push back alittle bit, right, and realizing
that we really absorbed so muchspecifically from our parents.
You know, we really the researchpoints mostly to mothers and
daughters, right? Specifically,a daughter with a mother who is
(01:49):
consumed by body image dietrestriction has a higher
likelihood of developing aneating disorder at some point in
her life, or just being stuck ina cycle of dieting. We know that
that's what the research says,but I think we're going to find
out that it's not justdaughters, it's men too. We know
men just really don't talk somuch about it. But you know, I
(02:10):
was a product of thatenvironment, so I have done all
of the work to heal and in mywork as a private practice
therapist, every time I ask thequestion about, tell me your
relationship with food in yourbody. Most of the answers are
not. It's great. I love myself.
I have problems with food,right? So that's kind of where
the idea was birthed. A littlebit like, okay, it's this
personal experience for me,mixed with what I hear from the
(02:32):
people I'm treating and reallyjust seeing this highlighted
problem that doesn't get as muchattention as it should. So
beautifully. Said, can you tellus a little bit about your own
personal story? If you'rewilling? Yeah, absolutely. So I
was raised with, you know, Ialways say two very loving
parents, right? I always startthe story that way, and before I
even burst this program and Iwent to my parents and I said,
(02:54):
I'm gonna be online and I'mgonna be talking a lot about my
experiences, and it's not toshame you, or to say you did
anything wrong, I think they didwhat the best that they could.
They didn't know back then. I'm38 so you know, my childhood
really was the 90s. We justdidn't know back then what we
know now. So they really did thebest they could, but they were
both very consumed with theirbodies, and both of my parents
(03:16):
have been on a diet my wholelife right up until today, right
now. And you know, I canremember going to Weight
Watchers meetings with my mom,not because she wanted me to be
there to lose weight, but justlike there was no childcare and
she had to go to her meeting. Sohere I was sitting in the room,
and we just didn't I want tobelieve nobody knew that as
(03:37):
children, we're internalizingall of this, right? Even if
we're sitting there and it's notabout us or our bodies, we're
getting the message that, oh,being smaller is better. My
mom's kind of obsessed withbeing smaller, so I must make
sure that I stay small too. So Iwound up with an eating disorder
that really reared its head,mostly when I was 14. I say that
(03:57):
I'm in remission, but that's alife long diagnosis, right?
That's yeah. So I spent most ofmy, I'll say, from like 19 up
until just a few years ago, onthe same cycle that I saw my
parents on diets and just somuch self loathing, and it was
(04:18):
never good enough, and I neverfelt confident enough. And then
having children really reopenedall of that, right? Watching my
body changed with each of mypregnancies, gaining, losing all
of the weight, until just maybe,like, two years ago, and I was
finally like, I am so tired ofjust hating myself. There has to
be another way, and I don't wantto spend every day thinking
(04:39):
about what food choices I'mmaking, and obsessing and having
guilt and all of the things thatI could really just go on and on
and on. But I wound up workingwith a registered dietitian who
was very specificallyspecialized in breaking diet
culture, and then, of course, inmy own therapy process, it was.
Nicole Swartz (05:00):
Hand in hand, the healing that I experienced, and
I realized there's a lot ofcoaching programs, like the one
that I'm doing, focused from thenutrition lens. There's not a
lot that focus from the MentalHealth ones, even eating
disorder specialized therapists.
I think there's just a missedmarket here, and that's kind of
the whole story that got me towhere I designed this program
(05:21):
that I made. So, Wow, I'm socurious about the program, but I
am. Just have to start, like,Colette and I were talking, our
parents are closer, late 70s,pushing 80, and very blended
with the idea of like thin isbetter. I mean, my mom, I'll
just say she got like, a tummytuck at age 75
Laura Bowman (05:44):
Wow. And like, continues to like battle. Like,
if she feels thin, she canparticipate in active society.
If she doesn't, she doesn't wantto. So like, the messages that I
received were not even likepadded at all, they were overt.
Yes, they right. You will nothave value if you're not then
(06:06):
Exactly, yeah. So I didn't endup with an eating disorder, but
my daughter did, and so I'vegotten to watch that unfold,
right? Yeah, but it is sopervasive in my family that I
mean, and I feel like Colettehas had some of the same stuff
too, yeah.
Colette Fehr (06:24):
But, you know, it's interesting, Laura, for
sure. You know, my father washeavy as a child, and his, you
know, my grandparents would bewell over 100 right? So we're
talking many generations ago,and my father was nicknamed
chubby because he wasoverweight, and so much so that
(06:45):
my grandfather, who was in awonderful person, right? I'm not
trying to disparage anyone. Imean, I love my parents and my
grandparents just like you said,unconditionally, that they put
up a street sign at the cornerof my dad's block that said
chubby's corner.
Yeah. And my dad tells the storyof going to his dad there, he
(07:09):
was a physician, and saying, Canyou help me lose weight like I
know I'm fat. And he said, Youknow what? You'll feel so
embarrassed by yourself, thatyou'll find a way to lose
weight.
Ouch, right? So here my fatherit is. He definitely has. I was
(07:30):
never told I've struggled withmy weight my whole life. You
know, I'm Italian. I feel like Ihave weight gaining genes and an
inborn love of food, but I nevergot overt messages from my
father, really, as a child.
However, I got sub textual andsubliminal messages everywhere.
Yes, I went to a very smallCatholic school, and everybody
(07:55):
was like mostly Irish,especially in my younger years,
and they were all real thin andlike blonde. I mean, I know I'm
blonde now, but obviously it'stotally fake, and I was the only
one I
Unknown (08:09):
love you for admitting Yes, of course, I
Colette Fehr (08:12):
don't think I'm full. In anyway,
Laura Bowman (08:13):
I'm all natural.
Colette, speak for yourself,except
Colette Fehr (08:17):
you, but like when everyone around you is thin, and
my mother was always overweight,and interestingly, didn't buy
into diet culture and didn'tseem to care. But I so
internalized the message ofculture that I thought it was
bad that she was overweight, andI wanted her to be upset about
(08:38):
it and do something about it,sure, which is so messed up. So
I think I have been on a dietsince about age 11, right, my
entire life, and I'm currentlyon diet shots like Zep bound,
which is an alternative toozempic. It's been a lifelong
struggle. I don't hate myself. Idon't have the self loathing
(09:01):
piece, but I do have the desireto be thin, and it is so hard
wired. So I'd love to hear moreabout, obviously, the way you
conceptualize this. But I'm alsocurious, since Laura and I are
Gen Xers, how do you see theyounger generation as truly
(09:21):
conceptualizing what's healthy,and is it really different from
our old bad messages, or is itjust new language and still just
as sick and fucked
Laura Bowman (09:33):
up health and wellness? Well, to
Nicole Swartz (09:36):
to be determined, I don't know, let's talk again
in 30 years. But from what we'refrom what Millennials are doing
with our small children. So mykids are five and eight, right?
I can't speak so much aboutwell, let me backtrack. I'll
start there, and then I'll, I'llget to some of my Gen Z ers that
I've either worked with, or mylike, babysitters that I spend
(09:57):
time with, and what I'm seeing.
But I think there's a. Shift inlanguage for sure, right? So
there's rules that we have whenI say we I'm talking me and my
husband that we've decided,right? Our kids will never hear
us say something negative aboutourselves in general. It just
won't happen, whether that's ourbodies, whether that's any kind
of self deprecation, because Ithink that that is so
internalized in that momentthey're hearing so much of what
(10:18):
we're saying that goes rightdown to setting boundaries even
with grandparents, right? So wehave our Boomer grandparents,
and they love to look at my sonand say, You're so skinny. And
I'm like, like, Nope, don't dothat, because skinny to them is
a compliment, but it's still acomment on a body, and that can
be internalized and shameful.
(10:40):
The same way saying your fat canbe totally so there's helping
set those boundaries. We talk alot with our kids just about
bodies are different. Andthey'll ask, Why is your you
know, your belly is squishierthan mine. And in a moment where
someone could say, like, Oh,your belly is so much cuter than
mine, I'm like, Yeah, my bellyis squishier because I had you,
(11:02):
like, that's where you grew. Andhe's like, Oh, it's so
comfortable. I love laying onit. So to me, that's a beautiful
moment where I'm not teachinghim that my squishy belly is
worse than his cute, littleflat, tight belly that he has
right now. I'm also honoringthat. Yeah, my body has changed
and it's different. And this islike a core memory that my son's
(11:24):
making with me. Maybe he'llremember one day that we
struggled in bed, and mom's softbelly made me feel happy, right?
So those two things are anexample there of here's the
language that we're using that'sdifferent, and here's also where
my healing comes in. So insteadof me saying, Oh my gosh. He's
pointing out that my belly issquishy, and that makes me feel
shameful. I'm like, Oh, he'scomfortable on me. And this is
(11:47):
like a sweet moment, and that'sin the bucket of healing for me
with my body stuff. So that'spart of I feel like I really
could just go on and on. There'sso many examples of how we're
doing this with our smallchildren. I think Gen Z, what
I'm seeing is so much more bodypositivity, right? And this
might open up a conversationabout, you know, when we see,
(12:10):
you know, just the way that theydress, like when I was that age,
crop top on, I would never wear,like little shorts, but they're
just out there in their bodiesand they're comfortable and
they're happy, and they're notexperiencing the same things I
think that my generation did interms of, Oh, you don't have the
body to wear that. They justwear what they want. So I agree,
(12:33):
shifting
Colette Fehr (12:35):
to me, it's one of the I mean, I have two Gen Z
daughters. They're both incollege, and I think there's a
lot with Gen Z that makes mewant to bang my head against a
wall, but this is something Ithink they really got right. I
notice, especially they both goto college in Florida where
everyone walks around halfnaked, 24/7, 365, days a year.
(12:57):
And you're right. Regardless ofbody type, they are in,
basically, clothes that looklike bathing suits, shorts that
end at the, you know, thigh,Marc, crease
Laura Bowman (13:07):
of your thigh,
Colette Fehr (13:08):
and you're amazing. I love that because I
would not in middle school, getup from my lounge chair and get
in the pool in front of boys andbig T shirt covering me. I'd get
in the pool with a T shirt whenmy body started developing.
Sure, it's just makes me sohappy for them, but body
Laura Bowman (13:29):
standards seem to be changing too, right? Like, I
mean, I grew up with J Crewmagazines, like, I wanted to be
a J Crew model, which, like,they didn't want they looked,
they were just like, had, didn'thave butts or anything. And I
was like, oh yeah. And I'm notbuilt that way. And then
somewhere along the way, likecurvy became really sexy. And
I'm like, when did that happen?
But it feels like there's achanging body standard as well,
(13:52):
absolutely.
Nicole Swartz (13:56):
And I think we can credit, you know, say what
you want about Lizzo. I knowshe's had a rough go recently,
but you know, I think we have tolook at people like that, who
are unapologetically who theyare, and stand in their bodies
and they don't hide behindanything. And I think for
millennials, I can remember inthe heyday of the early 2000s
(14:16):
and being in the checkout lineat the grocery store and looking
at the magazine covers, andthere were pictures of Jessica
Simpson, who has an incrediblynormal looking body at that
time, and it would be labeled,she gained weight, she's fat,
she's this, she's that. Soagain, it's that moment of even
if we were not getting thatovert messaging about our own
bodies, of course, at 14, I'mlooking at that and I'm saying,
(14:38):
well, that doesn't look thatdifferent from my body, so I
guess I'm fat too. And, youknow, that's another example,
too, of the way that we use theword fat, right? I'm trying to
teach my kids that fat issomething that our bodies have,
right? And is also just thedescriptor. It's okay to say
fat, right? I think all of us,even me as the millennial, with
(14:58):
you guys, fat probably makes a.
Like, sit up a littlestraighter, right? Like, if
someone uses that to describesomeone, I try to teach my kids
that's just a word that we useto describe things, and it
doesn't have to be a dirty wordthat we avoid. So just another
example of changing thelanguage, right? Some bodies
have more fat on them, and wewould describe those bodies as
fat. They're still beautiful.
(15:21):
Yeah, right. I know
Colette Fehr (15:23):
it just feels like an insult, because in my
upbringing, calling someone fatwas definitely about the worst
thing you could say about Yeah,you'd almost call them a
murderer, derogatory
Laura Bowman (15:36):
and disqualifying.
Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (15:39):
I know that's a big push. Though, in the world
that I'm in, especially with ourchildren, is trying to teach
them that that word doesn't meanthat it's just a descriptor, but
it's hard for me and all thework I've done, and clearly this
is my platform. I still, even inbooks we read, I used to skip
the word fat. You know, in thechildren's books, they use it a
lot, and I would skip it becauseI would think, like, I don't
(16:00):
want them to learn that word.
And now I'm learning okay, it'sokay. They can understand, you
know, I can show them on theirbodies where they have fat on
their bodies, and it's doesn'thave to be what we know it to
be. Yeah, right, yeah. And it
Colette Fehr (16:13):
seems that this change in cultural acceptance,
because bodies have become, youknow, more diverse and accepted
as such, even though we knowit's still there, right? And
there's still a lot of misogynyin our culture and objectifying
and judging women. And you know,even at 51 when I lose weight,
(16:34):
people comment, and it's like,now you're good, right? Oh,
yeah, right. It's always seen asthe positive, being overweight
still has a correlation withlike, letting yourself go, being
lazy, being less than but I dothink we're shifting it, and I
think this is a big part of whyGen Z doesn't feel and carry the
(16:55):
shame. And I know in my own workwhat's changed for me. I mean,
I, too, will always be workingon this, but over the years,
I've been able to really let goof the shame piece. I feel like,
almost completely, you know, Idon't, yeah, sometimes I catch
certain glimpses of my body andI'm like, Oh, wow, that's not
(17:18):
what I thought it looked like.
Yeah, what I wish. But there's afundamental acceptance. I don't
hide. It's one of the reasonsthat I am personally committed
to being very open about beingon the weight loss shots,
because I've noticed, yeah, andI feel like women carry shame
about that, even though so manypeople are doing it. And once I
tell people I'm doing the shots,then other people are opening up
(17:43):
to me, but they seem somortified by it, as if they have
to hide it. And I don't want itto be that kind of thing. Yeah,
yeah. I
Nicole Swartz (17:53):
think that that's part of what my that's a part of
my coaching program, is that wecan, we can let go of the shame,
and we can love ourselves andstill want to change how we
look, right? I think it's allabout motivation for me. If it's
motivation to change your bodybecause of just how much you
hate yourself and you thinkyou'll be more valuable if
you're smaller, that's adifferent conversation for me
(18:14):
than if you're in a place whereyou love yourself and you're at
the point where you're like,Well, I would feel a little
better if my clothes just wenton my body a little bit easier,
right? Or
Colette Fehr (18:25):
I don't fit into any of my clothes. Yeah, that's
right,
Nicole Swartz (18:28):
it's a problem.
Yeah, that's a terrible feeling,right? But I think that it's
where's the motivation to changeyour body coming from? Is it
from self loathing and shame andfeeling like you are more
valuable to society in a smallerbody, or is it truly your
comfort? Those are two differentissues for me, right?
Colette Fehr (18:46):
I agree, and I feel like you just articulated
exactly the shift in me fromwhen I was younger, and it was
like I have to starve to bedesired by my male partner and
seen as valuable in society, andnow it's like, I want to be
healthy and feel good about howI look and feel good in my
clothes. And also, it doesn'thave to be perfect. My goal
(19:07):
weight is about 20 to 25 poundshigher than I weighed when I was
young, and that's my goalweight. So it's a much
healthier, more balanced andself accepting place to be, and
it feels a lot better inside.
Nicole Swartz (19:23):
I love that, and that's such a good mental
checkpoint for anyone who'sstruggling, right? If, if we're
in the place where we're tryingto become smaller, what's the
internal monolog looking likeevery day? Is it what you kind
of just described, or is it thatshame spiral and the self
loathing and the idea that youkind of want to punish yourself,
right? Oh, I ate this last nighttoday, and I have to go do the
(19:44):
elliptical for an hour. Thatkind of stuff is a red flag,
right? Yeah. I
Laura Bowman (19:48):
mean, like, eating issues have, like, the same
etiology, right? Like, I mean,like, are the same cause. Just
for our listener, there is likethat I see that some like. My
daughter will be real, is reallyopen about this. Like, she has
more of, like, kind of almost anOCD relationship that she can
get in with food and exercise,where it's, like, very
(20:10):
compulsive and upset, you know,obsessive compulsive, and it's a
very tight sort of anxiety loop,whereas, like, somebody who
binges, and I'm not saying thatall these things don't kind of
all land in the same place, butpeople who binge can sometimes
really be trying to self sootheand cope and, like, numb, and
that's and sometimes our habits,like stem from a different
(20:32):
place, or our ways of coping. Doyou deal with that in your
coaching program, like diff likethe different ways these things
really show up for people, sure,
Nicole Swartz (20:42):
yeah. So for me, specifically with the program,
there's a certain line in thesand that I have to draw,
because my coaching program,just to make this understandable
for people who are listening, isoutside of the therapy world for
red tape reasons. For me to beable to treat people outside of
the state of Florida where I'mlicensed, right? So I have to be
(21:03):
careful with what comes up inthe coaching. If I'm working
with someone and I see somethingthat really starts to cross over
into more of a disordered eatingstandpoint, I'm going to be
talking about, hey, let's get atherapist on board to help us
really work out some of that.
But I'm absolutely talking withpeople about, what are we using
food for? Right? In a more, Iguess, in a less, a less
(21:23):
pathological way. And I knowthat that word makes a lot of
sense to the three of us in theroom, but what I mean by that
is, if our food habits have lessto do with something on a deeper
level, right, something that'snot necessarily quite as
threatening as really seriousdisordered eating could be
right, but, yeah, we aredefinitely talking about, are we
using food to soothe? How elsecan we soothe in those moments?
(21:46):
And what are the steps we cantake in the moment where the
urge to, oh, I feel stressed, Iwant to reach for something,
Hey, how can we pause and sitwith that and think about, what
else could we do? How do wehandle, you know, a craving,
sometimes we just have to honorit too, right? It's not always
about controlling it. I think abig piece of what I want to
teach people is that it's okayto eat emotionally, as long as
(22:07):
that's not our only copingskill. I think that's where we
get stuck, right? If that's theonly thing we reach for in a
moment, that's a problem. Butsometimes there's space and it's
culturally appropriate to reachfor comfort. Colette, I'm also
Italian, so hello. I mean,that's when I was a kid. The
first thing, right? If you'resick, if you're sad, it's like,
(22:28):
What are we eating? Right?
That's not always bad.
Sometimes, really, that touchesyour heart in a way that's
nostalgic. So I'm not out heretrying to get people to stop
doing that, we just have to lookat, what else should we and
could we be doing in thosemoments?
Colette Fehr (22:46):
Right? So it's kind of like, you know, when
people drink socially andmoderately, truly, moderately,
and they might enjoy a bottle ofwine with a group of friends out
on a Friday night, versus everytime I'm stressed about work, I
come home and I kind of turn mynervous system down with two or
three drinks, and I rely on thatcoping mechanism, and it becomes
(23:10):
rigid and entrenched. Same thingwith food, because food is
pleasure and joy and bonding andcelebration. It's meant to taste
good and bring us together. And,you know, the thought of a life
of like, plain lettuce andboiled chicken, I'd rather just
die now, yeah,
Nicole Swartz (23:30):
right, right, or there's a bigger body, right?
Yes, that's part of theconversation too, that people
get to of, like, okay, you know,there's certain people who are
just genetically, naturally thinpeople, and they don't have to
work hard at it. And thenthere's people who aren't. And
sometimes it's like, you knowwhat? I just want to enjoy
myself, and if that means I haveto buy the bigger pants, that's
(23:52):
what I'm going to do. And youknow, that's the space that I
want to help more people get to.
Is the acceptance of feeling.
You know, you mentioned goalweight Colette, and I think I
want people to chase a feeling.
And that's not me shaming you.
I'm happy for you. Yeah, that'swhat feels good for you. But I
also want to encourage people,instead of a number, can we
(24:13):
chase a feeling? Right? Whetherthat's being able to put on the
first thing you pick in yourcloset and not change three more
times? Because we all have thosedates right, where it's like,
oh, I can't find anything thatfeels good on my body. So
chasing a feeling, whatever thatlooks like for someone,
Colette Fehr (24:29):
yeah, and my goal weight is correlated to that
feeling I love. It's where I'mmedically healthy. I don't want
to be medically overweight, andI know some people see that
differently, but my personalstance is, there is data
correlated with mortality andbeing overweight, and I
personally don't want to go thatroad, although I'm currently
(24:52):
there, you know, I'm not thatoverweight and I'm almost obese.
Well, there. I mean, I've lost alittle bit of weight on this
diet drug, but when I started, Iwas like five pounds away from
being considered obese, right?
So I'm, I'm looking to be at aplace where I can enjoy life and
food and, you know, feelreasonably comfortable and like
(25:17):
good about how I look and not bemedically overweight and find a
very sane and balanced way Idon't want to live anymore with
food on my mind. Yeah, what didI eat? And like you said, when
you said getting on theelliptical, I mean that was,
like my whole life when I wasyoung, calories in, calories
out. Did I work out, did Iovereat and that whole thing? I
(25:41):
don't want to live like thatanymore. So I love what you're
saying about chasing a feelingand finding balance and self
love.
Laura Bowman (25:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Unknown (25:52):
Can, can
Laura Bowman (25:52):
we talk about though? I mean, how much do you
do with the fact that we live ina culture that is, like very
much stacked against us foodwise? Yeah. I mean, even if
you've never had a problem withfood, food is going to find have
a problem with you. Like, Imean, it's these addictive
substances in food. It's just, Imean, what do they say we have
(26:13):
an obesogenic culture? Like, itjust, it is, it is a process,
yeah? Like, all the processedfood, the seed oils, the, you
know, a Chick fil A on everystraight corner, it's, yeah,
it's hard, like, at what pointdo we have to begin to make,
like, Sidestep all of thatstuff, to have peace with, with
(26:33):
our bodies or our health oranything? Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (26:36):
I think I come from a specific lens of
understanding that there's afear mongering piece to some of
the food stuff that's out there,an account that I point people
to. A lot on Instagram, we'veheard of food babe, and I just
tell my clients to do yourresearch on what food babe
shares. And there's anotheraccount called Food Science Babe
(27:00):
and this person started theaccount to sort of debunk the
stuff that food babe pushes,which is a lot of the seed oils
and that whole realm of things.
So I try to look for reallyscience based information,
right? We're looking forevidence based research to back
some of the things that it'seasy to get on social media and
be inundated with propaganda,especially like in these current
(27:21):
times, right? So we have to becareful with what we're
absorbing and what we'rebelieving based on what somebody
just tells us without doing ourown research. But all of that to
say, I think everything comesdown to balance, right? The
foods that are the mostaddictive, so to speak of are,
of course, are not. It's noone's reaching for the Apple,
because you just get, like, stopthinking about wanting an apple
(27:42):
or broccoli, right? It's thestuff that is processed. Never
had that experience, right?
Colette Fehr (27:48):
Yeah? Me either, never binged on Apples. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (27:52):
right, right. So of course, it's going to be the
processed foods, it's going tobe the sugar, it's going to be
those things. So the approachthat I teach is have what you
want and add what you need. Soif you're having a craving for
potato chips, have the potatochips have a reasonable serving
size of them. What are we goingto add to that plate to help our
(28:14):
body feel nourished andsatisfied? So we're going to
make sure that it's balancedright. So there is a nutrition
lens, and I am not anutritionist or a dietitian, so
this is where I encourage peopleto make sure they're getting
that support in other places.
But we're gonna add fiber, we'regonna add fat, we're gonna add
protein, and we're gonna havewhat we want. We're gonna add
what we need. So like that, amentally that feels better, but
(28:35):
it's also helping our bodyprocess that in a way where
we're keeping our health andcheck too?
Laura Bowman (28:41):
Yeah, I like that,
Colette Fehr (28:42):
making sure you get the nutrition, but you don't
have to deprive yourself of thepotato chips Exactly. So I'm
curious, and for our listeners,what do you you in the coaching
realm? You must still addresssome of that inner monolog,
inner critic stuff, I imaginetotally what suggestions do you
(29:06):
have for people on how to startthis journey of moving from
shame to genuine acceptance? I
Nicole Swartz (29:12):
think one of the most powerful tips that I give
people is start paying attentionto how you're talking to
yourself. I think we are all soused to our inner voice that we
don't even hear it. So if wespend some time really
observing, what are the thingswe say to ourselves every time
we look in the mirror, and I asksomebody, would you say that to
your best friend? And it putspeople back on their heels every
(29:33):
time. And I think that's areally powerful place for
someone to start, because it'seasy to do, right? We just have
to pay attention and mayberecord those thoughts and ask
ourselves, would we ever saythese things to someone we love,
and how do we start treatingourselves the way we treat the
people we love?
Colette Fehr (29:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because we can be
our own worst critic, and mostof the time, people find that
they would not say yeah, thosethings to anyone. Even a
stranger they can't stand orsomething, sure, right? And
Nicole Swartz (30:04):
as far as all of the shame goes, that's there's a
lot of unpacking there aboutwhat have the messages around
food in our bodies been ourwhole lives? And it's going to
be different for everyone. Andmy program is tailored
specifically to each person. Idon't have a curriculum that
everybody gets. When we have ourfirst session, we go through,
What have your experiences been?
What are your goals, so that Ican tailor it specifically for
people? So it's hard for me toanswer that question, because
(30:26):
everybody's journey will lookdifferent with me, but we're
really going to look at what wasyour messaging around food. If
you grew up in a house thatnever had sugar, we have to
learn how to have sugar, becausethat's part of having a healthy,
balanced diet. It's okay to wantto have ice cream or candy or
whatever the thing is. And howdo we realize that, like our
(30:46):
food doesn't determine ourmorality, we are not good or bad
today based on what any of useat? That's it just doesn't work
that way. We've been taughtthat, but that's not what it is,
right? So those are just acouple of examples to answer the
question,
Colette Fehr (31:01):
yeah, getting away from the good and bad,
Laura Bowman (31:04):
all or nothing. Do you find that some, like, some
people really struggle to, like,live in the middle space there.
I mean, I think I've seen that.
We see that in therapy all thetime, people struggle to walk
the middle path. But just evenwith food that like, if they
begin with with something thatit they have a hard time with
the breaks,
Nicole Swartz (31:25):
yeah, and I think it's about, it's kind of like an
exposure therapy, right? If youhave someone who really has
never allowed themselves to eatoutside of what they deem to be
good, it's very scary, right?
It's kind of like working withwith people who suffer from
anorexia, right? All of thosemeals are exposure therapy in
the beginning to work throughthe discomfort that comes up. So
you know, it's starting andstarting out small, if need be
(31:49):
right, but just understandingthat adding in something that
you deem to be bad a we have tochange the thought patterns
around it. Food is neither goodnor bad, right? Food is just
food. Some food is morenutritious than others. Some
foods do things differently inour bodies than others. This is
an example of some of thelanguage I use with my own
children, of making sure thatthey're not going to grow up in
(32:12):
a house where things are good orbad. So I'm that's part of the
coaching I'm doing is, how do wemove away from that language
where we can understand howchicken breasts reacts in our
body versus a cookie, right? Andit's not that it's good or bad.
They're doing different thingsin our body,
Colette Fehr (32:29):
right? And a cookie doesn't have nutritional
value, or at least not much. Imean, it just doesn't. That's
not labeling it. It's just thereality, whereas a chicken
breast does,
Nicole Swartz (32:42):
right? And those are the conversations. Is okay,
the protein is going to keep usfull, it's going to give us
energy, it's going to help ourmuscles grow, right? And this is
the kind of the verbiage I useon my kids. So obviously, with
adults and clients, it's alittle different, right? But,
okay, yes, the cookie is goingto give you fast energy. We know
that it's also, you know, thereare foods that feed and are
(33:03):
nutritious to our soul, right?
And having a cookie is that, andthat needs to be considered.
That's part of breaking the dietculture is understanding that
we're not just eating for thegoal of being smaller. And
Laura Bowman (33:15):
sometimes you eat to feed your soul, and that's
fine, and not getting stuckthere that like, it's like,
okay, maybe today I ate andlike, soothe myself, but
tomorrow I'm gonna eat to reallynourish my body. And that going
back and forth there is, like,is totally normal and fine,
Nicole Swartz (33:34):
totally and every day, especially as women, we
have to look at, okay, where arewe in our cycle? Our hormones
have so much to do with how weview our bodies and how we feel
and what our hunger cues are forthe day. So there's flexibility.
And I tell everybody, this isnot a linear process. We're not
like up, up, up, and then weplateau and we're perfect
forever. It's never going to bethat we have to anticipate that
(33:55):
there are going to be days thatare harder and easier for all of
those reasons, right?
Colette Fehr (34:00):
And at menopause, things change hormonally in a
big way, perimenopause, and, youknow, things can really slow
down if you don't keep up yourmuscle mass. So there's just so
many factors, but it feels likefinding the right path for you.
You know may be different foreveryone, what their goals are
(34:20):
and what's healthy for them, butthat it really is about getting
rid of that self loathing piece,yes, and re narrating the way we
talk about food and ourphysicality.
Nicole Swartz (34:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, I think thesecond half of my program
focuses on, you know,specifically for moms and how to
do this with our kids. And, youknow, it was funny last week
with Halloween, and I had thisrealization, you know, we've,
we've never put candy or sweetsor anything on a pedestal with
our kids. That's another pieceof what I teach people is, you
know, at dinner, we feed dessertwith the meat. Ill, which really
(34:59):
like, trips up my Boomer mom,who's like, you can't they're
gonna eat the cookie first. AndI'm like, okay, and then watch,
they're also going to eat theirfood with it. And you know, I
think in that moment, what we'reteaching our kids is you don't
have to earn the cookie. Youdon't have to ignore your
fullness cue because you want tohave the dessert. So we've
always just had that approach.
(35:20):
So we had Halloween, whichbrings up a lot of stress and
anxiety for parents, becauseit's like, Ah, so much sugar and
what's going to happen. So wecame home Halloween night, they
ate some of their candy. Thenext day, they go to school,
they come home, they have yet toask me to eat any of their
candy. I have it. It's here.
It's in the pantry. They knowwhere it is. They haven't asked
for it once. And I think that,the proof of how the approach
(35:41):
works, because they have so muchexposure to it that there's not
an obsession about it. So thatwas, like a really proud moment
for me to be like, Okay, this isworking.
Colette Fehr (35:53):
See, I don't remember too. I mean, on the
flip side of all the dietculture years ago, at least for
me in the 70s, I mean, I couldeat however much candy I wanted
it was. I never got messagesthat like candy was bad. No one
controlled my Halloween candylike it almost shocks me,
(36:13):
although it shouldn't, to hearthat moms are freaking out about
Halloween. Sometimes, I thinkthese younger generations, it's
just exhausting how stressed outthey are about every freaking
thing. Like, right? Yeah, don'twe have more, don't you have
bigger problems in your lifethan how many pieces of, like,
peanut butter cups your kidfreaking eats?
Unknown (36:33):
I mean, I'm sorry. I
Colette Fehr (36:34):
just find it like, I mean, I would eat like, four
Reese's peanut butter cups for asnack and, like, an RC Cola, and
then dinner three hours later.
And, like, it didn't kill me,you know, yeah.
Nicole Swartz (36:46):
And I think what's interesting is that
somewhere between the 70s andthe 90s is where the shift
happened. And, you know, was itthe the fat free movement?
There's, you know, snack? Well,oh yeah, I remember the Devil's
Food cookies, my mom has myfavorite, I know, yeah, right.
(37:08):
So dry, and they were very dry,but
Laura Bowman (37:15):
freebies, right?
Nicole Swartz (37:17):
And all of that that really took off in the late
80s, early 90s. And then, ofcourse, you can't ignore the
capitalism involved in dietculture, right? Totally. Just
preying on people to spend theirmoney was very nuanced, very
layered. We could get into alldifferent conversations about
that, but,
Colette Fehr (37:36):
right, yeah, right. And the research shows
that most people will return totheir natural weight, because
there is something to geneticsand set points and so this like
struggle to beat yourself up fornot being something you think
you should be. I mean, it's sucha waste of your energy, your
beautiful energy in life.
Nicole Swartz (37:57):
I agree, right?
Yeah, that's so well said,
Laura Bowman (38:01):
you know, and I have definitely, over the years,
because I have, like, reallyearly memories of going
downstairs to my the kid. My momis a great cook, and so is my
grandmother, and they'd alwaysbake, and I, like, took the all
the icing off the cake, like, I,like, just licked it all. I
didn't, I guess I didn't realizethat was, like, not a cool thing
to do. But I did that. And Ijust remember being so hooked
(38:25):
into sugar, like when they myaunt would make brownies, I
would just, like do laps throughthe kitchen until they were
gone, yeah. And to this day, ifI get started on sugar like
that, it can just be this, like,gerbil on a wheel thing, Me too.
Me too. And it feels very likebiological for me, like Colette
and I were talking about howthat just feels something in my
(38:47):
system. I don't have a ton ofshame about it. And now, when I
kind of made it there go downthat, that rabbit hole, I'm
like, oh, here I go. Well, watchme go, you know, and it slide
all the way to the bottom, andI'll make better decisions the
next day. But I realized thateven getting started that like,
there's not a lot of room forbalance for me with with certain
(39:08):
foods, it's like, it's like,it's just gonna take me
somewhere weird, okay, butthat's having awareness of my
own. Yeah, mess. I don't have alot of Judge, shame or judgment
around it. It is
Colette Fehr (39:19):
with me. Neither May, neither. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (39:21):
right. And that's that's great, and that might be
the case for someone like you.
And then in another case, havingregular exposure to sugar to,
you know, avoid that feelingyou're describing could be an
approach that works, right? Ifyou were my client, and you were
describing that to me, and youwere to say to me, I really want
to work on this, I would say,let's try to have it every day
and see where we can get withthe regular exposure to it, to
(39:44):
sort of retrain thoseconnections in your brain that
make it feel so out of control,
Laura Bowman (39:51):
right? Like, but the message is really
experiment, find what works foryou and see like where you land.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly,
Nicole Swartz (40:00):
because if it's not an issue, just like any
client, forget, outside of mycoaching, just in the therapy
world, if it's not a problem forsomeone who am I to sit there
and tell them, let's work on it,right? We all get to choose
those things in our therapyprocess. So I agree, if it's not
a problem for someone, it's notworth spending time on, right? I
think that's the humanexperience. We're all so
different that way, that'slovely. So
Colette Fehr (40:22):
yeah, and I'm glad you said that, Laura, because
it's taken me a long time to tofigure out even within the
broader umbrella, let's say, thehealthier version of like what
we're labeling as not sohealthy, diet culture, trying to
find the ways to be healthy andto live in balance that there
are so many things that soundreally good and are good but
(40:45):
just don't work for me, thatI've had to really figure out
what is healthy gonna look likefor me, and also accepting that
certain things the way my systemruns biologically. And I mean,
I've done tons of work on thisover the year. Years, I've gone
to all kinds of like, differenttherapies and programs and self
(41:06):
explorations to try to figure itout. And, you know, realizing
that certain things are alwaysgoing to be a challenge for me.
And instead of wishing theyweren't, or beating myself up,
like limiting sugar, but havingit in moderation. You know, I
have had to find other ways tocope with that reality. And it's
(41:27):
not like, oh, it's bad and Ican't have it. That's not the
answer, either, but it isrecognizing that I have, I
believe, biologically, with likeleptin and ghrelin, these
hormones that control hunger andsatiety. I really believe it's
always a struggle for me once Iget certain processed food,
(41:48):
that's all I want. I don't wantnutritious things, and I've
never taken those things off thetable or been like, No, I can't
have them or anything like that.
And this is part of what for me,I really like about this diet
shot that I never or whateveryou want to call it. I never
thought I would do, because Iwas scared of what else it could
do to my body. But I have tosay, it's so nice. I'm still
(42:11):
hungry. I'm losing weight veryslowly, like a half a pound,
maybe a week, sometimes a pound,very, very slowly, and I'm not
dieting. But what's been so niceand freeing is that I do eat in
a balanced way. I can have alittle bit of dessert and feel
satisfied, and then I don't wantanymore. And it's not constantly
(42:34):
screaming at me in my brain.
More and more and more. It usedto be that if there was, like,
cookies or brownies in mypantry, it would be like, all I
could think about, and theywould be gone within 24 hours,
because I would just be sopinging in my brain. And now my
(42:57):
husband even is like, wow, thatshot is crazy. He's like, we've
had this, this and this, and youhaven't even eaten it. It's
like, more like what youdescribe with your kids and the
candy, like, I just have some,and then I'm good. So for me,
it's really been so great, and Ican see for somebody else that
this medication could bring themto a psychological place that
(43:19):
maybe wouldn't be healthy. Butfor me, it's been really, really
freeing and good, yeah, yeah.
And
Nicole Swartz (43:25):
that's a lot of the feedback we're hearing from
people with food noise, right?
If that's a thing that peopleexperience, that's just what
you're talking about, that voicethat just won't go away, that
the all of the GLP ones are kindof helping quiet that and allow
to figure out, yeah. And, youknow, I think there's a
misconception in the anti dietworld and the intuitive eating
world that this means thependulum swings the other way.
(43:46):
And you could just, it's like afree for all, and that's, that's
not the thing. That's a bigmisconception. Nobody is
teaching that, right? It's justa matter of really removing the
good versus the bad. I thinkthat that's really one of the
pillars of what the anti dietmovement is trying to do. We're
not out here staying trash yourentire diet, right? It's to live
(44:07):
within balance and to allowyourself to have those foods
without tying your morality toit, like
Laura Bowman (44:16):
tying your morality to it, yeah, or your
worth, or
Nicole Swartz (44:19):
your worth, right? Yeah, exactly right.
Like, oh, I had a good daytoday, because I ate within
whatever parameters I had in mybrain. It's not healthy, right?
That's not where we
Laura Bowman (44:30):
should be finding our values to
Colette Fehr (44:32):
be. My dialog, like in my 20s and my teens and
20s, and that's the part that isso corrosive for us, yeah,
Laura Bowman (44:41):
and I'm glad that we're finally realizing that
commenting on people's bodies. Imean, I was, I was funny. I go
to the gym with my daughter. Mydaughter's the one that
struggled with an eatingdisorder, but does really well
with exercise and eating now,but she's, you know, she's at a
lower part of her weight. Rangernow, and the trainer comes up to
(45:01):
her and is like, you look great.
Did you lose weight? And I'mjust like, cringing, looking at
this guy, thinking, What are youdoing, man, like you don't know.
Like you have no idea what, whoyou're talking to. And like,
this is not appropriate. Likeand all that does. She says, you
know, Mom, when people see that,I feel like, Oh, I'm doing well,
and I need to, like, keep up myadvantage in the world. That's
(45:25):
what that ticks off in her Sure.
We need to understand thattalking the commenting on
people's bodies is just gottago, yeah. It's gotta go, yeah.
Nicole Swartz (45:39):
I think that it just feeds the monster of, okay,
smaller is better. Make sure Istay this way to whatever the
consequence of that is, right?
It can be incredibly damaging.
And we have to just understandthat that might have been a
compliment 20 or 30 years ago,and nowadays it's a little more
complicated than that.
Laura Bowman (45:56):
Yeah, yes, and
Colette Fehr (45:58):
it should be. It should be, I hope that goes by
the wayside, particularly mencommenting on women's bodies.
Just don't find something don'tabout a woman's you know what
she has to say to compliment, ifyou really are so dead set on
complimenting someone, right?
Don't make it about physicalappearance, and obviously for
(46:21):
men too. I mean, I don't makemean to make this only like a
heterosexually normative thing,but it's a huge problem in
society. And I one of the thingsI love about getting older is
less eyeballs of men and lesscommentary as I can become
invisible, which I personallyfind very freeing. Yeah. And I
(46:41):
just think it's like, not aYeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't go,
yeah, that's my PA.
Laura Bowman (46:52):
Yeah. I
Nicole Swartz (46:52):
appreciate you bringing up the heteronormative
part. I work with a lot of LGBTQclients in my private practice,
and particularly with the men,that's a very common thread. The
body stuff is there is such ahigh standard in that community
for what they should look like,and almost all of them that I
have treated have had some typeof body dysmorphia there. So,
(47:13):
you know, it's important that weshine a light on that too. It's
not just women. It's not justright the heteronormative, it's
happening everywhere. So I'mglad that you, you said that,
Colette, thank you. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (47:24):
because I can only speak to my own personal
experience. But it's certainlynot unique to this the
heterosexual Avenue, sure. Yeah,and I think just in general,
let's stop commenting onpeople's bodies and stop hyper
fixating on our own in thoseold, unhealthy, messaged ways,
(47:44):
and start sure embracing ahealthier way of being with our
bodies and food. Yeah,
Nicole Swartz (47:51):
absolutely, the standards have to just be
adjusted in a lot of differentplaces. That's the bottom line
there.
Laura Bowman (47:57):
And I love the work you're doing with your
kids. I mean, I I so needed thatin my family. Like, I mean, I
internalized everything I gotfrom my mom. And, you know, even
now, I have to, like, catchmyself from doing the evaluative
comments of like, Oh, you lookso great. Or like, shut up,
Laura. It's like, no, like, it'swe don't need to evaluate our
(48:21):
kids
Nicole Swartz (48:21):
are, it's every day. It's it's being really
mindful and just having somereally some standards across the
board that we don't use food asa reward. We don't celebrate
with food too much, right? Theidea of, oh, you had a bad day
at school, let's go get icecream, or, Oh, you're you had a
great report card. Let's go getice cream. That doesn't exist in
our family. We just go get icecream because it's Sunday and it
(48:44):
sounds good, right, right, youknow. And they're, I think
they're just little buildingblocks of things you can do that
start to really change the wholeapproach. And, you know, again,
I'll always use my own kids asmy example, but we do go get ice
cream and they throw away twothirds of the cup of ice cream,
and they're like, I've hadenough, and that's it, and it
goes in the trash. And, youknow, you think about other kids
(49:07):
who really struggle with, youknow, hiding food, sneaking
food, things like that. It'sinspiring for me to see that
what I'm doing is working, and Iwant everyone to be doing it,
because it's going to be whatmoves the needle for this
generation. So, yeah,
Colette Fehr (49:22):
yeah, and makes it just healthier to be in balance.
I love it. Nicole, thank you somuch. And you know, before we
let you go, can you tell ourlisteners how they can contact
you? Sure?
Nicole Swartz (49:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
So the best place to find all ofmy information is on Instagram.
My handle is anti diet,underscore therapist. Right
there in my bio, you'll have alink to my application where you
can read all about my programand figure out how else to
contact me, whether that'sthrough DMS, that's the best
place to find me, and I'm happyto answer any questions if
anyone reaches out. So, Oh,that's
Colette Fehr (49:58):
wonderful. Thanks.
So. Much great work. Yeah, thank
Nicole Swartz (50:02):
you. I really appreciate the time and the
space to talk about this withyou guys today. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (50:08):
we're so grateful.
Thank you. It's been a wonderfulconversation, and thank you
everyone for listening asalways, if you liked what you
heard today, we hope you do.
Please write us a review andshare this episode with your
friends, and we will be backnext week with more insights
from the couch. You.
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