May 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Do you find yourself saying “yes” when you really want to say “no”? Do you feel responsible for keeping the peace, even at your own expense? If any of that sounds familiar, this episode is for you. From childhood conditioning and gender expectations to how this behavior shows up in our adult relationships—romantic, professional, and personal—we’re talking about it all.
In this episode, we get real about our own struggles and growth around people pleasing. We explore the line between kindness and self-abandonment, how saying “no” can actually strengthen relationships, and the subtle (and not-so-subtle) ways we’ve learned to reclaim our voices. If you’ve ever wrestled with resentment, vagueness, or fear of being “the bad guy,” you’re not alone—and there’s a way out. Tune in as we share stories, insights, and actionable strategies for building healthier boundaries without losing your sense of connection.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] - Why people pleasing hits so close to home for both of us.
[1:14] - The difference between being genuinely kind vs. being "nice" to your own detriment.
[3:49] - Laura's story: Growing up flanked by strong personalities and learning to placate.
[6:46] - How family patterns condition our conflict tolerance in adulthood.
[8:32] - Colette’s evolution in romantic relationships and the fear of losing love.
[10:11] - Assertiveness is a muscle: why it takes time and practice to break the habit.
[11:02] - People pleasing ≠ being confident and kind. It often leads to resentment.
[12:51] - Key signs of people pleasing from Psychology Today’s checklist.
[13:31] - Natural boundaries: how structure and routine can minimize people pleasing.
[15:25] - Boundaries at work: why therapy helped us develop clear limits.
[17:21] - Practicing assertiveness in safe relationships and why that matters.
[22:08] - The real cost of people pleasing on your mental and emotional health.
[23:17] - Gabor Maté and the connection between chronic niceness and physical illness.
[26:06] - Practical tips: writing out your thoughts, using scripts, and buying time.
[30:38] - Parenting and people pleasing: where we still struggle (and how we’re working on it).
[33:59] - The importance of learning to self-define, and why assertiveness isn’t aggressiveness.
[34:33] - The Giving Tree metaphor and recognizing when you’ve become the stump.
[36:05] - Final tips: Practice, write it out, externalize, and invest in safe relationships.
[37:12] - Where to take the “Are You a People Pleaser?” test and how to connect with us.
Resources:
- Take the “Are You a People Pleaser?” quiz at: https://insightsfromthecouch.org
- Learn more about the podcast and access show archives at: Insights From the Couch
Make sure to visit the “Resources” page on our website www.insightsfromthecouch.org to download the worksheet and take ways that accompany each episode. This is hugely important as we are now creating a download that is unique to each episode and working hard to create an email list to support our programming offerings moving forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:00):
Laura, welcome back to another episode of
(00:05):
insights from the couch. We'retackling people pleasing today.
This is a big one. Laura and Iboth relate, and maybe you can
too. Are you a people pleaser, areformed people pleaser, or
somebody who's trying to stoppeople pleasing, we're going to
get into it all and some tipsfor you on what you can do to
(00:26):
break free, because it canreally destroy your life.
Welcome back, everyone, andthanks for listening. I'm here
with Laura again this morning,and we can't wait to dig in.
Yeah, people
Laura Bowman (00:36):
pleasing, I like I have such an ick relationship
with that. And these personalitytraits that, on one hand, are
really nice to have, likeagreeableness and likability and
being easy going, these are, Oh,you're so nice. I've gotten this
kind of feedback my whole life,and I now they're like my least
(01:00):
favorite compliments of alltime. Like, I just, I'm like, oh
god, that's the part of me youlike, like, that's the part of
me I'm desperately trying toshake off because it's very much
in me. Well,
Colette Fehr (01:15):
let's face it, women have always been valued
and conditioned to be nice. Infact, there was a study not long
ago that said the two attributesthis will come as zero surprise
to anyone listening, but the twoattributes that women are most
valued for are their looks andtheir niceness. Let's all throw
(01:37):
up in unison. Yeah. So I thinkI've always been told I'm warm
and friendly, which I think istrue, and that's very different
from Nice. Yeah, there's a bigdifference between being kind,
genuinely kind, and niceness.
And there's a plague that I talkabout in my book that I call
good girl. Itis where, you know,we don't want to rock the boat
(01:59):
and and this sort of nicenessthat we're valued for can come
at our own expense, and it'sparticularly insidious, because
it's not really about being kindto other people. It's really
about avoiding the discomfortyou feel inside when you have to
say no, make someone upset orhave a moment of conflict. Yes,
Laura Bowman (02:25):
that is exactly it. It's it's the idea that
you're going to get smiled downin like the Drama Triangle,
unless and until you're willingto step into being the bad guy
or being perceived as the badguy, because it's the only way
out. And that is the worstfeeling for some people. It
certainly is a reallyuncomfortable feeling for me, I
(02:46):
do not like being the bad guy.
Yeah, I
Colette Fehr (02:49):
mean, I think you have to risk being seen
potentially as the bad guy.
Doesn't mean you always will be,but somebody might not like what
you have to say, or the factthat you're saying no or you're
disagreeing, you know? Okay, solet's just break this down for a
minute. The classic example is abunch of women are going out to
lunch, and everyone's like, whatdo you feel like? Oh, I don't
(03:10):
care. What do you feel like?
Well, I don't care either. Youpick no, you pick no, you pick
Oh, I don't care. Everyone'strying to, like, do backwards
somersaults to be so easy peasy,where I'm like, You know what? I
want, sushi. Let's go. If no oneelse is going to throw in an
opinion, I'll happily say, Imean, I do also say sometimes I
(03:32):
don't care. But the point is,say you don't care if you really
don't care. But it's also okayto have an opinion. Trust that
people will say, you know, Idon't really feel like sushi
today because I just had it fivetimes this week. Can we go
somewhere else?
Laura Bowman (03:49):
Yep. So like having a having your own
opinion, saying no beingdisagreeable, or being perceived
as disagreeable, like reallyrunning against the grain of
what everybody else wants. Like,that's just hard. I mean, I I'll
just speak for myself, like Igrew up, um, flanked by two
(04:11):
very, very strong personalities,very alpha, my mother and my
brother were just strong and,like, competing against each
other for, like, what was theway things were going to go? And
I was like, the person in themiddle who would be like, you
know, pulled from side to side.
And I learned really early that,like, my power in my family was
(04:32):
to sort of flatten myself outand, like, work surreptitiously
in order to placate these strongpersonalities and mostly hid in
my room like mostly lived in myhead and in my room. So
Colette Fehr (04:51):
what was the reward of pancaking and
placating these personalities
Laura Bowman (04:57):
that they were never for? Particularly happy
with one another, but they werehappy with me, and I could,
like, move them or calm them inorder to have the whole
situation. And I'm probablyoverrating my power. If they
were listening to this, they'dprobably be like, Oh, shut up,
(05:20):
Laura, but like, No, I thinkthat I was, my perception was
that my role made like it waslike I was like a lubrication
for this difficult system, andthat was my role,
Colette Fehr (05:32):
right? And then the reward, though, for you is
by moving them or calming themor earning their favor. Yeah,
right, appeasement, then youfeel better inside. Things are
less tense, there's peace, andyou feel more comfortable,
Laura Bowman (05:48):
yes. And I'm like, Okay, can I go now? Can I go
now? And I'm going to go to myroom, and that's where I can
kind of really be alone with myown thoughts, because this is
really hectic, and that pattern,you know, is something I've had
to shake my whole life and notrecreate in my own family, yeah,
and to this day, like it's veryhard for me to not be in that
(06:12):
role with my mother. And I'vebecome more and more direct over
the years, far more direct, butI still people pleasing still
shows up for me in like,vagueness, like, I'll I know
what I want. I know how long Iwant the Christmas break to be.
I know how long I want thevacate, the visit to be. But I'm
(06:34):
like, um, let's, well, let'sfigure it out. Let's, uh, let's
talk about it later. Let's like,I punt, kick the can. I kick the
can. That's people pleasing forme in this day and age, right?
Colette Fehr (06:46):
And then that comes from being conditioned. If
you have these two personalitiesthat are so chaotic and they can
get antagonistic with eachother, that comes from the
conditioning of okay, kickingthe can and avoiding it avoids
all that unpleasantness thatwill surely ensue. Yes, whereas
for me, as I reflect on whatyou're saying in my family,
(07:08):
everyone had very strongopinions and expressed them, and
people weren't threatened by it.
It didn't lead to problems. Sowe'd all want something
different for dinner, and we'djust all eat something different
for dinner, but everyone wouldsay it, you know, it just was a
culture of a lot of permissionto have opinions, to debate
things, without it leading to aproblem in the relationship or
(07:31):
leading to any kind ofanimosity. So I grew up feeling
very free and comfortable tostate my opinion. However, in
romantic relationships, I wouldstill state my opinion, but if I
sensed that it would jeopardizethe relationship by causing a
fight, or I might lose someone'slove and approval because I
(07:51):
pushed back on something theycared about, then I would
silence myself, and I did notwant conflict with a romantic
partner or with close friends. Ihad no problem with conflict in
my family, pushing back with myparents, anyone like that, or
even really with strangers. I'mpretty like, willing to go there
and your Your face tells meyou've seen that in action.
Laura Bowman (08:16):
But I'm exactly the opposite. Like, yeah, I am
most of able to express myselfwith close others and like
strangers is where I will dropthe rope so fast because I just
want to get away from
Colette Fehr (08:32):
it. Yeah. I mean, I don't struggle to express my
opinion in close relationshipsor push back when it feels safe,
yeah, when I sense that I couldlose or imperil a relationship,
whether it's true or not, youknow, that's the fear of
conflict. I talk about my book,and I'm always talking about in
couples therapy, that's theplace that it's still hurt for
(08:55):
me. However, one of the reasonsI wanted to do this episode so
much, and I know you too, isthat I've evolved so much in
this area, and I'm someone whono one probably would have ever
described if you only knew mefrom the outside as a people
pleaser, but again, in therethat desire to like, Oh, let me
just keep my partner happy soyou don't ever want to leave me
(09:18):
or, you know, abandon or rejectme was in there really strongly,
and it's a muscle that getsconditioned being more
assertive. So I think there aresome things we can give to you
guys listening that may help youto break free of people
pleasing. Because ultimately,again, the cost of this is self
abandonment. You are abandoningyourself to keep the peace, and
(09:42):
it doesn't do you or that otherperson any favors. Really, as
adults, we're supposed to bedifferentiated, meaning we have
our own identity, and we cansay, hey, you know what? That's
a great suggestion, but I'dreally rather go have pizza.
Does that work? For you. Yeah,we can be kind and tactful while
(10:04):
we're still clear, direct andtrue to ourselves
Laura Bowman (10:11):
absolutely and I this is an area that I've gotten
so much better in over the yearsas well I'm still like in
process with with certain piecesof it being direct with my needs
right away up front, like Isaid, I kick the can sometimes.
Yep, that's still something I'mgetting better at, but it's you
(10:33):
have to pendulate into it. It isnot it. You have to, like, start
in the most innocuous area andbuild the muscle. It is not
like, you're not going to justlike, face plant into this
curve, especially if this is anarea where you have lots of
people pleasing parts where youcan't say no, right, where
(10:53):
you're like, you don't know howto, like, say a strong opinion.
You mean, there it, there's,this is obviously a huge
continuum, yeah, and,
Colette Fehr (11:02):
you know, depending on the situation,
maybe there, there are alwaystimes when it doesn't make any
sense to give your opinion. Youknow, you can be confident in
your opinion, and you don't haveto say it out loud. It's not
about, you know, walking aroundlike swinging your dick around.
This is, yeah, this is not thepoint of this. No, the point of
this is having good boundaries,so you don't let people trample
(11:24):
all over you. The point of thisis taking care of yourself so
that you preserve your energy,you protect your mental health.
And one of the biggest featuresI see as a therapist and
personally with friends andloved ones, one of the biggest
problems with people pleasing isthat people pleasers end up
miserable and stuck inresentment. And resentment is
(11:47):
really a sign that you're angryat yourself, but you're
misplacing it toward another. Ifyou resent someone else, it
means you haven't drawn aboundary or said no to behaviors
that you should have, and youfailed to show up for yourself.
So before we get into thesolutions, I just wanted to read
a couple things. And I think weshould, we should link to this
(12:09):
on our website, insights fromthe couch.org, so if you guys
want to take the full Are you apeople pleaser test? We'll have
that in there. I want to read acouple of the the behaviors they
highlight here in PsychologyToday, okay, I agree with others
just to keep the peace. I'mafraid to say no. I rarely share
(12:30):
my opinions because I don't wantto upset anyone. I don't like to
make decisions if it will makeother people unhappy. I often
take on responsibilities thatare not mine. I make compromises
for other people, huh? I tend togo with the flow, even if it
makes me uneasy. Just to name afew, yeah,
Laura Bowman (12:51):
yep. As you're reading them, though, I'm
thinking, you know, one of thethings that has helped me over
the years is, like building myown life that has, like,
naturally occurring boundaries,you know, so I'm less I'm less
available for people pleasing,or to be like in other people's
on other people's agreeable. Idon't know, clouds like, it's
(13:13):
like, I go to work, I work out.
This is my time. I work out.
This is the time I go to bed,like my life is a little bit of
a buffer between my myavailability to be a tool for
other people, yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:31):
but that's not not being a people pleaser. That's
just not being available for it,exactly,
Laura Bowman (13:36):
but that's like that has been a strategy, is
what I'm saying. This is, likemy modern day strategy, like I'm
going to my room and locking thedoor. I've had to have natural
boundaries around myself becauseof how permeable I sometimes
feel. So
Colette Fehr (13:53):
what's helped me that makes sense to me, Laura,
and what's helped me the most isbeing a therapist, because I
realized early on, you know, I'mnow what, 12 years into my
private practice and my brief,limited career before this in
sales, where you're justagreeable all over the place,
because your job is to make yourclients happy, and that's Yeah
(14:15):
money, and that strategy doesn'twork. As a therapist, I love my
clients, I care about them, andI try to be warm and accessible,
which is my genuine self. But Ilearned early on that I had to
have really strict boundaries,or I was going to get dragged
all over the place, not tomention honoring the law and
ethics and clients don'tunderstand, you know, all the
(14:38):
rules behind the scenes thatsound crazy to clients, where
they're like, I don't care ifthe world knows you're my
therapist, right, but I have toprotect that. They want to email
you stuff, and I can't allowthat, because it has to go on
the record. And some of thisstuff, you know, charging,
charging no show sessions, I hadto get good at sitting. Through
(15:01):
discomfort, fear of losingclients, and just like you're
saying with conditioning themuscle as you do it, and you
know what, sometimes the worstdoes happen. Sometimes somebody
freaks out and they're upsetwith you, but the more you do
it, the more you just say, okay,it is what it is, and I'm doing
the right thing, and I'mexpressing it clearly and
(15:22):
kindly, and I'm going to letwhat happens happens. I find
Laura Bowman (15:26):
that like that work is the one of the first
places where people start to,like, get can get really good
boundaries, in fact, like worksituations, I I've watched it
with a bunch of clients wherethey don't quite have it down in
their personal life, but theystart to master it in their work
lives, and then as they likefeel comfortable, it starts to
(15:49):
progress to their personal life.
Colette Fehr (15:52):
I totally agree. I think that's what happened to a
degree for both of us. Yeah, youknow, the other thing that helps
is practicing it in arelationship that's more secure.
So for me, my relationship withSteve, my husband, has been very
secure in that way that I don'tfear losing his love for pushing
(16:12):
back, whereas in my firstmarriage, there was such a bad
response to my emotions aroundthings my ex husband cared about
that I felt like if I didn'tstay that agreeable, smiling,
little, sparkling blonde, hewanted that I would be punished
by losing love and I wouldcompromise myself. So I think
(16:36):
being in something healthy isgreat if you don't have a
relationship with a partner likethat, pick the relationship that
you feel the most comfortableand confident and practice
there. And one thing that helpsme, that I used to do with
clients around the no show feethat you can use for these
contacts is to name the fear anddiscomfort. Hey, you know this
(16:59):
is not super easy for me to dothese things. I know I have to,
but it's hard for me to pushback or to say no or to charge
you for a missed session, eventhough you signed eight papers
knowing that that would happen,and I warned you last time.
Yeah, let people know, becausewhen you date name, your
discomfort, it begins todissipate a little.
Laura Bowman (17:21):
Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. And I
would also echo that havinggreat relationships, you know, I
think our relationship hashelped me a lot. Like having
being friends with you and youare so clear about what you need
and what it is you can do andcan't do, and it makes it much
(17:43):
safer for me to say what I canand can't do. No, I'm so glad.
No, it has
Colette Fehr (17:48):
been so helpful.
Oh, that makes me so happy. AndI feel like we do do that with
each other, yeah,
Laura Bowman (17:53):
and it's okay, right? Like, do you ever like,
you can say to me, like, I can'tmake it this afternoon, or,
like, we can't I gottareschedule this. And it's, it's
fine, right? There's no like,like, we work with each other
and we respect each other's timein our space. And there's no
subtext of like, well, well,fuck you. Know, never, never.
(18:15):
You had to, like, do this forme, and like, you didn't,
really, you didn't show up forme. Like, there's none of that.
It's so like accepting. And Ihope that our listeners have at
least one of those relationshipsin their lives. I have a couple
good ones
Colette Fehr (18:31):
me too, and you're right, the safety that comes
from knowing so it's bidirectional, what you're
describing, and that's a bigpart of why it works. I mean,
I'm we're arguing that you haveto do it, even when people
aren't cool about it, but whenyou have it, like we do, where
you're right, we can, first ofall, I trust you that I don't,
because the relationship'ssecure. I don't ever feel like
(18:52):
you're blowing me off or youwouldn't be there for me, you
know. So when you tell me yourboundaries, I respect them
anyway, but I know that you'remy true friend. So it's easy to
see that there's it's easy tobelieve the best always, and
what you might say yes or no tonow, I think this is very funny
coming after yesterday, when Ibasically pulled you into
(19:15):
booking a spontaneous trip toNantucket and did not let you
say, No,
Laura Bowman (19:21):
you know what?
Though, like, I need you forthat. Because I would have sat
and stared at it, and then Iwould have done the vagueness
thing. I'd have been like, well,let's see, like I want to, but I
don't really, I don't know, andthen it would never happen. And
that's how I become like, veryoften, snagged in my own
bullshit is when I just don'tlike state what I need clearly
(19:43):
or the but in that situation, Ineeded a
Colette Fehr (19:48):
push. Yeah, and you know what? I trust I'm kind
of joking, because if youcouldn't do it or didn't want
to, you would have said, soyeah,
Laura Bowman (19:56):
no, that's a long standing thing that we've wanted
to do. So, yeah, yeah.
Colette Fehr (20:00):
Yeah, we're going on a little podcast retreat to
Nantucket this coming September,and it's going to be while the
neighborhood project, theNantucket project, we did the
neighborhood project. Yes, we'vebeen shocking the Nantucket
project for, I don't know, adecade, and planning to go to
Nantucket together, one of ourfavorite places. So it's going
(20:22):
to be so fun. And basically, wewere sitting there working on
the podcast and our upcomingepisodes for you guys, and it
came up, and I was like, letthis is the year. Let's go.
Let's just do it. And so welooked at a hotel that I stayed
at before, when I went a whileago with my husband, and it was
available, and we looked atplane tickets, and I'm like,
(20:43):
let's just book it and we'redoing it. Yeah, yeah. And it was
so fun, and I'm so excited. ButI think it is another example of
something where, if you had saidno, even though I really wanted
to go, I would have respectedit, and I believe you would have
felt comfortable to do that, and
Laura Bowman (21:00):
I would have like, yeah. I mean, I think where I
get snagged is when I know theanswer that I want to express,
but I get vague. And that isthat wasn't the feeling I've
wanted to do this forever. Sothat was a clear yes, and I need
that
Colette Fehr (21:16):
push, yeah. You just needed me to be like, we're
doing it right now.
Laura Bowman (21:20):
Yeah, we're gonna do it now.
Colette Fehr (21:24):
I know I think this stuff is hard, but what
we're trying to tell you guys isjust start small if this is
challenging for you, becausepeople pleasing ultimately
doesn't make you happy. Andagain, it's not really about
being nice. It's really aboutavoiding discomfort. And it's
(21:46):
one of those things that themore you push back a little and
learn to tolerate a littlediscomfort, and that the worst
doesn't happen, or that theworst happens and you're still
standing the easier it becomesand then the more you feel clean
in your relationships, the moreconfidence you build, the
(22:07):
healthier and happier you'll be.
Laura Bowman (22:09):
And I think Gabor Mate writes about this in his
book, but he talks about howlike agreeableness and people
pleasing like literally killsyou, and that they have this.
This is like, I don't know howscientific this is, but he
writes about it in the book,that people who end up getting
diagnosed with like ALS, they'llgo in to do a consult, like a
(22:33):
neurological consult, and thenurse will come out and say,
like, I don't think they haveALS. They're not nice enough
that there's this short hand inthat diagnostic world that
patients, and this, like I said,is very unscientific, who get
als ultimately are like the mosthighly agreeable people. So they
(22:58):
don't know nice, they're toonice, they're too nice, and they
like, are not bound, likethey're just allow, they allow
the world to, and I don't knowwhat, and that's for a lot of
illnesses where people do notexpress themselves, and all of
this energy gets just trappedinside the body.
Colette Fehr (23:17):
I 100% believe that it's going to manifest
itself in some way in the body,because you're disowning,
disowning, disowning, disowning,build resentment, and it builds
into a whole kind of victimthing, where you're mad at the
world, but you really only haveyourself to blame. And I guess
the bottom line is, part ofbeing an adult is self defining
(23:41):
and letting people know whereyou begin and end, and you can
do it kindly. I think this is abig piece that I talk about a
lot on just about everyplatform. The more you use the
muscle, the easier it gets, andthe more you see that you can be
clear and direct and kind at thesame time. So you can say to
(24:04):
someone, oh, you know, I wish Icould help with that, but I
can't. I'm swamped right now.
You don't have to give anexcuse, but there's nothing
wrong with that. Or, you know,I'd love to help, but I'm not
available. Just a simple, right,simple, clear. It's so funny to
me too, when people say, Oh, asa therapist, you must have
people constantly, like all yourfriends, must come to you for
(24:28):
everything, and they don't. Ifsomeone really has a struggle,
they may turn to me, but I'm notavailable. 24/7, for free
advice. I mean, I'd never sleep.
Same thing with clients, right?
If we don't have boundaries astherapists, we wouldn't be able
to protect our energy for thetherapy room. I could be
(24:48):
emailing, texting, on phonecalls with clients all day and
night, and so could you, yeah,yeah. So it's really, it's your
health. But it's also, it'sjust, it's your emotional and
physical health, and it is youdon't have to be mean. I think
that's what people think likethat they they'll or
(25:10):
underdeveloped people will getmean. That's the only time they
can say that about is whenthey're angry. And what I do
that a lot. Yes, me too, andI've experienced that a lot from
other people. What I'm saying istake some time. And this is when
I want to get into a little bitof tips. If you're struggling
(25:31):
with something, write it outfirst, take some time to
prepare. Have some empathy forthe other person's position.
Work through all of that, writeit down, and then have some
empathy from the outside foryour position. Yeah, you know,
imagine somebody in your lifethat you love dearly, maybe even
(25:52):
your child if you have children,because you'd probably want your
child to be able to say no toyou and not feel guilty and
think about yourself that way.
Externalize a
Laura Bowman (26:06):
little, you know, that I love that tip, yeah, I
think
Colette Fehr (26:10):
it really helps and prepare your answer. I mean,
I used to write this stuff outwith the assertiveness formula,
you know, when you I feelbecause yes, yes, I can or
can't. And that stuff can reallyhelp. And
Laura Bowman (26:24):
another thing, because I have, like, that
reflexive agreeableness, likethis is like agreeableness is
almost like a defensive strategyfor me, like I'm gonna agree,
I'm gonna agree because I justwant to get through. I want to
get sometimes I want to get awayfrom people. So I think
sometimes agreeing is thequickest way to get through this
is just my own pathology, right?
And and so sometimes, like, theagreeableness is coming out of
(26:49):
my mouth before my brain hastime to, like, even think it
through, yeah. And what I've hadto do is buy myself time where
I'm like, can I get that? Can Iget back to you? Like, I gotta
look at my schedule. I'm notsure what's going on. Let me
circle back because I can't inthe moment. I haven't even been
able to check in with me becauseI usually have to get a loan for
(27:12):
that. Like, I don't even know myanswer yet, yes. So if you find
yourself doing what I do, likemake sure you just buy yourself
some time. I
Colette Fehr (27:24):
love that tip. I think that's really, really
helpful, because I'm thinkingabout social situations where
someone throws something out andyou're right before you even
know it, you're saying yes, andyou may not amazing Yeah, and I
you don't want to not I don'twant to not honor my word, and
like you're saying, you mightnot know whether it works for
(27:45):
you or not. So get in the habitof slowing that whole roll down
and telling people, though,thanks for the offer. Let me
look at my schedule and or letme think about it and get back
to you, right? And you know, I,what I have found is that most
of the time when you say no oryou can't do something, or you
get better at not peoplepleasing, people are actually
(28:08):
pretty conciliatory and respectit. Yes, it's really not so bad.
It's the anticipation of all ofthis yuck that often doesn't
come.
Laura Bowman (28:22):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And as you sit down, like
what I was talking about withour relationship, as you say no,
within relationships, it givesthe other person permission to
have their No, yeah, yeah. Andso I actually reject the idea
that it makes relationshipsweaker. I think it makes
relationships, oh, far safer andstronger.
Colette Fehr (28:44):
Oh, I agree, it does. I think it's just our
perception. And, you know, thereare those people in our lives,
and this is how most people havecome by this, that they've had
someone close who isn't greatabout it, yeah, and does make it
feel as though the relationshipis threatened and or if you've
ever been rewarded like you weredescribing in your childhood,
(29:06):
role for being the agreeableone, being the one who makes
people happy. You know, I lookat my father and everybody says
how nice my dad is, and it'strue, and yet it's got a
pathological component he has,in many ways, become The Giving
Tree, sacrificed himself way toomuch to take care of others. And
(29:30):
yeah, you know, it's not totallyaltruistic. He thinks it is. The
conscious brain thinks it is.
But the secondary gain, which isreally the primary reward is
feeling good, the good feelingyou have when you make somebody
else happy. Of course, we wantto take care of other people to
a degree, and be helpers.
(29:53):
There's a positive quality tothat, but if it's coming at the
expense of your essential self,it's too far. Are, and that's
when I think it's worth lookingin the mirror and saying, Okay,
how can I self define a littlemore? How could I protect
myself, my health, my peace? CanI just flex this muscle a little
(30:13):
and show myself I can do it? I
Laura Bowman (30:16):
love that self define a little more. Yeah, I
love that, I love that, I lovethat. Now tell me, as I was
thinking, as you're talkingabout your dad, do you have any
more complicated issues, notpeople pleasing your kids?
Colette Fehr (30:32):
Wait, do I have?
Yeah, like,
Laura Bowman (30:34):
do you run into any, like, stickiness, not like
doing people pleasing? Yeah,actually,
Colette Fehr (30:39):
that's and I'm surprising that I haven't said
this sooner. That's probably theplace that I've been the worst.
Yeah, and now I've pushed backquite a bit, and one of the
things that's helped is sayingthis very saying this very
explicitly to my girls. Youknow, I think I have been too
(30:59):
much of an enabler. I think I'vebeen too much of a coddler in
certain ways. I think I haddivorce guilt, yeah, for a long
time, and I think that was partof it for my dad too, you know.
And we're not doing our kids anyfavors. So my daughters get it.
One of them's a little betterabout accepting my pushback. The
(31:19):
other will really push and pushand push and push and push. And
you know, that's another thingwe haven't mentioned, as I'm
kind of rambling here, somepeople will, will really keep
pushing. They won't accept yourno and that's tough.
Laura Bowman (31:36):
That's really tough. I have a couple places in
my life where that occurs, andit's really hard on me, and it
pisses me off. Yeah, it feelsreally unfair.
Colette Fehr (31:48):
Yeah, I agree. I feel that way too. I have, I can
think of two places in my life Ihave that and I feel that same
way. It's like, Shut the up. Isaid, No,
Laura Bowman (31:58):
kind of like, How dare you, like, I wouldn't ask
this of you, or I wouldn't putthis crap on you, yeah,
Colette Fehr (32:03):
or just people want their own agenda, and
they're going to get needling.
Now I will say I think I wasthat person who would like keep
going, Oh, come on, but whatabout this? Or what about that?
Or, and I've tried to get betterabout that now, and accepting
someone's no when they say no,because I know the value of it
and the importance of it, and Iknow what it's like to be on the
(32:25):
other side. I think it's reallyimportant to respect that. And
you know, Laura, to your pointabout agreeableness. I mean, I
don't think there are manypeople who would probably
describe me as, like, easygoing, fun loving, but probably
not easy going, because I'mintense, and I have my things
that I don't like, and I'm vocalabout it, but there are a lot of
(32:48):
things I actually am easygoingabout. I just don't care, and
I'm happy to be like, okay,whatever. It's not that you
never do that. It's just if Isay, You know what, I don't care
you pick. Then you can trustthat I mean that, yes,
Laura Bowman (33:05):
that it's not just you push stuff
Colette Fehr (33:09):
right, right? If you say, hey, like, whenever we
meet for like, food, you'll belike, I don't feel like that. Or
I'm like, No. Or I'll be like, Idon't care you pick. And then I
really mean that I don't care ifI cared or I had a craving or an
opinion, I would tell you
Laura Bowman (33:24):
I don't have any problem having my own opinions.
That's one thing that's like,really clear to me,
Colette Fehr (33:28):
right? But I think for a lot of people, the
unconscious, automatic idea,especially in a group,
especially for women, becausewe're still thought of, if a
woman goes after what she wants,there's still all of this. She's
a bitch. She's aggressive. Andassertiveness is not
aggressiveness. It's just beingclear and direct but still being
(33:53):
diplomatic at the same time.
Yeah, so yes, these muscles,yeah,
Laura Bowman (33:59):
it's a great thing to get good at. I think your
life gets cleaned up prettynicely when this is an area you
get good at, yes and and I'vejust watched clients who are
strong in people pleasing andagreeableness and all of this,
they get just loaded down like adesert camel with, like, all
(34:22):
kinds of baggage. Yes, and theylike, just plod through life
carrying things that do notbelong to them. Yes, and it's,
it's heartbreaking to watch,
Colette Fehr (34:34):
or you become the shell Silverstein giving tree.
You become the stump, which, ifyou have not read that book, or
if you have read it again, it issuch a good book, you know, the
tree gives and gives and givesto this little boy until it has
absolutely nothing left, andstill the boy is asking for
(34:54):
more. You are going to havethose people in your life who
don't care. They don't have acon. Anxious about it. They're
narcissistic, they're selfish,whatever the case may be, but it
is up to you. It is not up toother people. You can't rely on
other people to make this easierfor you. So let's review the
tips again before we wrap uphere that first start practicing
(35:16):
on people is easier with pickyour most accepting friend, let
that or your spouse, yourpartner, your mother or father,
if you have a close relationshipwith them, and let that person
know. Hey, I'm really working onthis. Can I practice with you?
Laugh about it right? Lighten itup, but get that muscle going.
Just do a couple bicep curls
Laura Bowman (35:39):
and write about it if you don't know how you feel,
which I think a lot of peoplewho are high in people pleasing
aren't connected to self, right?
So spend some time going how toget your feelings. Wheel out.
How do I really feel about this?
What do I really think aboutthis? Write it out. Rehearse,
yeah, and then distill it downinto something that's like, warm
(36:00):
and that the other person canhear, but really does state your
true feeling, right,
Colette Fehr (36:05):
warm and firm. And your tip, which I absolutely
love, is buy yourself some timein the moment. Get in the habit
of saying, oh, you know, I'llget back to you. I need to think
about that so that you do havetime to process. Yep, and what I
said about externalizingpractice putting your situation
(36:26):
into, like, the shoes of yourchild or someone you really care
about, who you would want to beable to honor themselves and say
no, and that'll give you someempathy for yourself as you're
doing this. Yeah. And
Laura Bowman (36:39):
finally, like, cultivate the relationships
where you have safety and you'reallowed to say no, and there's
reciprocity and it and it feelsreally like good and safe, like
we don't. You don't need to bogyourself down in relationships
where people are pushing on youall of the time, exactly.
Colette Fehr (37:00):
Really spend your time investing in the ones that
are safe enough to say no, or Idon't want to, or my opinion, is
different from yours, like us,
Unknown (37:09):
yes,
Colette Fehr (37:12):
and if you guys want to take the are you a
people pleaser test fromPsychology Today, go to our
website, insights from thecouch.org. And you can download
it there, and please leave ussome comments. Send us an email
with your questions. We wouldlove to hear from you. We're
grateful to you all forlistening. Oh, and don't forget
(37:33):
to write us a review if youhaven't already. That would be
so helpful. And we're so gladyou listened to another episode
of insights from the couch. Wehope you got some good insights
from
Laura Bowman (37:44):
our couch. I'll see you next time bye, guys bye.
You.
Laura, welcome back to another episode of
(00:05):
insights from the couch. We'retackling people pleasing today.
This is a big one. Laura and Iboth relate, and maybe you can
too. Are you a people pleaser, areformed people pleaser, or
somebody who's trying to stoppeople pleasing, we're going to
get into it all and some tipsfor you on what you can do to
(00:26):
break free, because it canreally destroy your life.
Welcome back, everyone, andthanks for listening. I'm here
with Laura again this morning,and we can't wait to dig in.
Yeah, people
Laura Bowman (00:36):
pleasing, I like I have such an ick relationship
with that. And these personalitytraits that, on one hand, are
really nice to have, likeagreeableness and likability and
being easy going, these are, Oh,you're so nice. I've gotten this
kind of feedback my whole life,and I now they're like my least
(01:00):
favorite compliments of alltime. Like, I just, I'm like, oh
god, that's the part of me youlike, like, that's the part of
me I'm desperately trying toshake off because it's very much
in me. Well,
Colette Fehr (01:15):
let's face it, women have always been valued
and conditioned to be nice. Infact, there was a study not long
ago that said the two attributesthis will come as zero surprise
to anyone listening, but the twoattributes that women are most
valued for are their looks andtheir niceness. Let's all throw
(01:37):
up in unison. Yeah. So I thinkI've always been told I'm warm
and friendly, which I think istrue, and that's very different
from Nice. Yeah, there's a bigdifference between being kind,
genuinely kind, and niceness.
And there's a plague that I talkabout in my book that I call
good girl. Itis where, you know,we don't want to rock the boat
(01:59):
and and this sort of nicenessthat we're valued for can come
at our own expense, and it'sparticularly insidious, because
it's not really about being kindto other people. It's really
about avoiding the discomfortyou feel inside when you have to
say no, make someone upset orhave a moment of conflict. Yes,
Laura Bowman (02:25):
that is exactly it. It's it's the idea that
you're going to get smiled downin like the Drama Triangle,
unless and until you're willingto step into being the bad guy
or being perceived as the badguy, because it's the only way
out. And that is the worstfeeling for some people. It
certainly is a reallyuncomfortable feeling for me, I
(02:46):
do not like being the bad guy.
Yeah, I
Colette Fehr (02:49):
mean, I think you have to risk being seen
potentially as the bad guy.
Doesn't mean you always will be,but somebody might not like what
you have to say, or the factthat you're saying no or you're
disagreeing, you know? Okay, solet's just break this down for a
minute. The classic example is abunch of women are going out to
lunch, and everyone's like, whatdo you feel like? Oh, I don't
(03:10):
care. What do you feel like?
Well, I don't care either. Youpick no, you pick no, you pick
Oh, I don't care. Everyone'strying to, like, do backwards
somersaults to be so easy peasy,where I'm like, You know what? I
want, sushi. Let's go. If no oneelse is going to throw in an
opinion, I'll happily say, Imean, I do also say sometimes I
(03:32):
don't care. But the point is,say you don't care if you really
don't care. But it's also okayto have an opinion. Trust that
people will say, you know, Idon't really feel like sushi
today because I just had it fivetimes this week. Can we go
somewhere else?
Laura Bowman (03:49):
Yep. So like having a having your own
opinion, saying no beingdisagreeable, or being perceived
as disagreeable, like reallyrunning against the grain of
what everybody else wants. Like,that's just hard. I mean, I I'll
just speak for myself, like Igrew up, um, flanked by two
(04:11):
very, very strong personalities,very alpha, my mother and my
brother were just strong and,like, competing against each
other for, like, what was theway things were going to go? And
I was like, the person in themiddle who would be like, you
know, pulled from side to side.
And I learned really early that,like, my power in my family was
(04:32):
to sort of flatten myself outand, like, work surreptitiously
in order to placate these strongpersonalities and mostly hid in
my room like mostly lived in myhead and in my room. So
Colette Fehr (04:51):
what was the reward of pancaking and
placating these personalities
Laura Bowman (04:57):
that they were never for? Particularly happy
with one another, but they werehappy with me, and I could,
like, move them or calm them inorder to have the whole
situation. And I'm probablyoverrating my power. If they
were listening to this, they'dprobably be like, Oh, shut up,
(05:20):
Laura, but like, No, I thinkthat I was, my perception was
that my role made like it waslike I was like a lubrication
for this difficult system, andthat was my role,
Colette Fehr (05:32):
right? And then the reward, though, for you is
by moving them or calming themor earning their favor. Yeah,
right, appeasement, then youfeel better inside. Things are
less tense, there's peace, andyou feel more comfortable,
Laura Bowman (05:48):
yes. And I'm like, Okay, can I go now? Can I go
now? And I'm going to go to myroom, and that's where I can
kind of really be alone with myown thoughts, because this is
really hectic, and that pattern,you know, is something I've had
to shake my whole life and notrecreate in my own family, yeah,
and to this day, like it's veryhard for me to not be in that
(06:12):
role with my mother. And I'vebecome more and more direct over
the years, far more direct, butI still people pleasing still
shows up for me in like,vagueness, like, I'll I know
what I want. I know how long Iwant the Christmas break to be.
I know how long I want thevacate, the visit to be. But I'm
(06:34):
like, um, let's, well, let'sfigure it out. Let's, uh, let's
talk about it later. Let's like,I punt, kick the can. I kick the
can. That's people pleasing forme in this day and age, right?
Colette Fehr (06:46):
And then that comes from being conditioned. If
you have these two personalitiesthat are so chaotic and they can
get antagonistic with eachother, that comes from the
conditioning of okay, kickingthe can and avoiding it avoids
all that unpleasantness thatwill surely ensue. Yes, whereas
for me, as I reflect on whatyou're saying in my family,
(07:08):
everyone had very strongopinions and expressed them, and
people weren't threatened by it.
It didn't lead to problems. Sowe'd all want something
different for dinner, and we'djust all eat something different
for dinner, but everyone wouldsay it, you know, it just was a
culture of a lot of permissionto have opinions, to debate
things, without it leading to aproblem in the relationship or
(07:31):
leading to any kind ofanimosity. So I grew up feeling
very free and comfortable tostate my opinion. However, in
romantic relationships, I wouldstill state my opinion, but if I
sensed that it would jeopardizethe relationship by causing a
fight, or I might lose someone'slove and approval because I
(07:51):
pushed back on something theycared about, then I would
silence myself, and I did notwant conflict with a romantic
partner or with close friends. Ihad no problem with conflict in
my family, pushing back with myparents, anyone like that, or
even really with strangers. I'mpretty like, willing to go there
and your Your face tells meyou've seen that in action.
Laura Bowman (08:16):
But I'm exactly the opposite. Like, yeah, I am
most of able to express myselfwith close others and like
strangers is where I will dropthe rope so fast because I just
want to get away from
Colette Fehr (08:32):
it. Yeah. I mean, I don't struggle to express my
opinion in close relationshipsor push back when it feels safe,
yeah, when I sense that I couldlose or imperil a relationship,
whether it's true or not, youknow, that's the fear of
conflict. I talk about my book,and I'm always talking about in
couples therapy, that's theplace that it's still hurt for
(08:55):
me. However, one of the reasonsI wanted to do this episode so
much, and I know you too, isthat I've evolved so much in
this area, and I'm someone whono one probably would have ever
described if you only knew mefrom the outside as a people
pleaser, but again, in therethat desire to like, Oh, let me
just keep my partner happy soyou don't ever want to leave me
(09:18):
or, you know, abandon or rejectme was in there really strongly,
and it's a muscle that getsconditioned being more
assertive. So I think there aresome things we can give to you
guys listening that may help youto break free of people
pleasing. Because ultimately,again, the cost of this is self
abandonment. You are abandoningyourself to keep the peace, and
(09:42):
it doesn't do you or that otherperson any favors. Really, as
adults, we're supposed to bedifferentiated, meaning we have
our own identity, and we cansay, hey, you know what? That's
a great suggestion, but I'dreally rather go have pizza.
Does that work? For you. Yeah,we can be kind and tactful while
(10:04):
we're still clear, direct andtrue to ourselves
Laura Bowman (10:11):
absolutely and I this is an area that I've gotten
so much better in over the yearsas well I'm still like in
process with with certain piecesof it being direct with my needs
right away up front, like Isaid, I kick the can sometimes.
Yep, that's still something I'mgetting better at, but it's you
(10:33):
have to pendulate into it. It isnot it. You have to, like, start
in the most innocuous area andbuild the muscle. It is not
like, you're not going to justlike, face plant into this
curve, especially if this is anarea where you have lots of
people pleasing parts where youcan't say no, right, where
(10:53):
you're like, you don't know howto, like, say a strong opinion.
You mean, there it, there's,this is obviously a huge
continuum, yeah, and,
Colette Fehr (11:02):
you know, depending on the situation,
maybe there, there are alwaystimes when it doesn't make any
sense to give your opinion. Youknow, you can be confident in
your opinion, and you don't haveto say it out loud. It's not
about, you know, walking aroundlike swinging your dick around.
This is, yeah, this is not thepoint of this. No, the point of
this is having good boundaries,so you don't let people trample
(11:24):
all over you. The point of thisis taking care of yourself so
that you preserve your energy,you protect your mental health.
And one of the biggest featuresI see as a therapist and
personally with friends andloved ones, one of the biggest
problems with people pleasing isthat people pleasers end up
miserable and stuck inresentment. And resentment is
(11:47):
really a sign that you're angryat yourself, but you're
misplacing it toward another. Ifyou resent someone else, it
means you haven't drawn aboundary or said no to behaviors
that you should have, and youfailed to show up for yourself.
So before we get into thesolutions, I just wanted to read
a couple things. And I think weshould, we should link to this
(12:09):
on our website, insights fromthe couch.org, so if you guys
want to take the full Are you apeople pleaser test? We'll have
that in there. I want to read acouple of the the behaviors they
highlight here in PsychologyToday, okay, I agree with others
just to keep the peace. I'mafraid to say no. I rarely share
(12:30):
my opinions because I don't wantto upset anyone. I don't like to
make decisions if it will makeother people unhappy. I often
take on responsibilities thatare not mine. I make compromises
for other people, huh? I tend togo with the flow, even if it
makes me uneasy. Just to name afew, yeah,
Laura Bowman (12:51):
yep. As you're reading them, though, I'm
thinking, you know, one of thethings that has helped me over
the years is, like building myown life that has, like,
naturally occurring boundaries,you know, so I'm less I'm less
available for people pleasing,or to be like in other people's
on other people's agreeable. Idon't know, clouds like, it's
(13:13):
like, I go to work, I work out.
This is my time. I work out.
This is the time I go to bed,like my life is a little bit of
a buffer between my myavailability to be a tool for
other people, yeah,
Colette Fehr (13:31):
but that's not not being a people pleaser. That's
just not being available for it,exactly,
Laura Bowman (13:36):
but that's like that has been a strategy, is
what I'm saying. This is, likemy modern day strategy, like I'm
going to my room and locking thedoor. I've had to have natural
boundaries around myself becauseof how permeable I sometimes
feel. So
Colette Fehr (13:53):
what's helped me that makes sense to me, Laura,
and what's helped me the most isbeing a therapist, because I
realized early on, you know, I'mnow what, 12 years into my
private practice and my brief,limited career before this in
sales, where you're justagreeable all over the place,
because your job is to make yourclients happy, and that's Yeah
(14:15):
money, and that strategy doesn'twork. As a therapist, I love my
clients, I care about them, andI try to be warm and accessible,
which is my genuine self. But Ilearned early on that I had to
have really strict boundaries,or I was going to get dragged
all over the place, not tomention honoring the law and
ethics and clients don'tunderstand, you know, all the
(14:38):
rules behind the scenes thatsound crazy to clients, where
they're like, I don't care ifthe world knows you're my
therapist, right, but I have toprotect that. They want to email
you stuff, and I can't allowthat, because it has to go on
the record. And some of thisstuff, you know, charging,
charging no show sessions, I hadto get good at sitting. Through
(15:01):
discomfort, fear of losingclients, and just like you're
saying with conditioning themuscle as you do it, and you
know what, sometimes the worstdoes happen. Sometimes somebody
freaks out and they're upsetwith you, but the more you do
it, the more you just say, okay,it is what it is, and I'm doing
the right thing, and I'mexpressing it clearly and
(15:22):
kindly, and I'm going to letwhat happens happens. I find
Laura Bowman (15:26):
that like that work is the one of the first
places where people start to,like, get can get really good
boundaries, in fact, like worksituations, I I've watched it
with a bunch of clients wherethey don't quite have it down in
their personal life, but theystart to master it in their work
lives, and then as they likefeel comfortable, it starts to
(15:49):
progress to their personal life.
Colette Fehr (15:52):
I totally agree. I think that's what happened to a
degree for both of us. Yeah, youknow, the other thing that helps
is practicing it in arelationship that's more secure.
So for me, my relationship withSteve, my husband, has been very
secure in that way that I don'tfear losing his love for pushing
(16:12):
back, whereas in my firstmarriage, there was such a bad
response to my emotions aroundthings my ex husband cared about
that I felt like if I didn'tstay that agreeable, smiling,
little, sparkling blonde, hewanted that I would be punished
by losing love and I wouldcompromise myself. So I think
(16:36):
being in something healthy isgreat if you don't have a
relationship with a partner likethat, pick the relationship that
you feel the most comfortableand confident and practice
there. And one thing that helpsme, that I used to do with
clients around the no show feethat you can use for these
contacts is to name the fear anddiscomfort. Hey, you know this
(16:59):
is not super easy for me to dothese things. I know I have to,
but it's hard for me to pushback or to say no or to charge
you for a missed session, eventhough you signed eight papers
knowing that that would happen,and I warned you last time.
Yeah, let people know, becausewhen you date name, your
discomfort, it begins todissipate a little.
Laura Bowman (17:21):
Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. And I
would also echo that havinggreat relationships, you know, I
think our relationship hashelped me a lot. Like having
being friends with you and youare so clear about what you need
and what it is you can do andcan't do, and it makes it much
(17:43):
safer for me to say what I canand can't do. No, I'm so glad.
No, it has
Colette Fehr (17:48):
been so helpful.
Oh, that makes me so happy. AndI feel like we do do that with
each other, yeah,
Laura Bowman (17:53):
and it's okay, right? Like, do you ever like,
you can say to me, like, I can'tmake it this afternoon, or,
like, we can't I gottareschedule this. And it's, it's
fine, right? There's no like,like, we work with each other
and we respect each other's timein our space. And there's no
subtext of like, well, well,fuck you. Know, never, never.
(18:15):
You had to, like, do this forme, and like, you didn't,
really, you didn't show up forme. Like, there's none of that.
It's so like accepting. And Ihope that our listeners have at
least one of those relationshipsin their lives. I have a couple
good ones
Colette Fehr (18:31):
me too, and you're right, the safety that comes
from knowing so it's bidirectional, what you're
describing, and that's a bigpart of why it works. I mean,
I'm we're arguing that you haveto do it, even when people
aren't cool about it, but whenyou have it, like we do, where
you're right, we can, first ofall, I trust you that I don't,
because the relationship'ssecure. I don't ever feel like
(18:52):
you're blowing me off or youwouldn't be there for me, you
know. So when you tell me yourboundaries, I respect them
anyway, but I know that you'remy true friend. So it's easy to
see that there's it's easy tobelieve the best always, and
what you might say yes or no tonow, I think this is very funny
coming after yesterday, when Ibasically pulled you into
(19:15):
booking a spontaneous trip toNantucket and did not let you
say, No,
Laura Bowman (19:21):
you know what?
Though, like, I need you forthat. Because I would have sat
and stared at it, and then Iwould have done the vagueness
thing. I'd have been like, well,let's see, like I want to, but I
don't really, I don't know, andthen it would never happen. And
that's how I become like, veryoften, snagged in my own
bullshit is when I just don'tlike state what I need clearly
(19:43):
or the but in that situation, Ineeded a
Colette Fehr (19:48):
push. Yeah, and you know what? I trust I'm kind
of joking, because if youcouldn't do it or didn't want
to, you would have said, soyeah,
Laura Bowman (19:56):
no, that's a long standing thing that we've wanted
to do. So, yeah, yeah.
Colette Fehr (20:00):
Yeah, we're going on a little podcast retreat to
Nantucket this coming September,and it's going to be while the
neighborhood project, theNantucket project, we did the
neighborhood project. Yes, we'vebeen shocking the Nantucket
project for, I don't know, adecade, and planning to go to
Nantucket together, one of ourfavorite places. So it's going
(20:22):
to be so fun. And basically, wewere sitting there working on
the podcast and our upcomingepisodes for you guys, and it
came up, and I was like, letthis is the year. Let's go.
Let's just do it. And so welooked at a hotel that I stayed
at before, when I went a whileago with my husband, and it was
available, and we looked atplane tickets, and I'm like,
(20:43):
let's just book it and we'redoing it. Yeah, yeah. And it was
so fun, and I'm so excited. ButI think it is another example of
something where, if you had saidno, even though I really wanted
to go, I would have respectedit, and I believe you would have
felt comfortable to do that, and
Laura Bowman (21:00):
I would have like, yeah. I mean, I think where I
get snagged is when I know theanswer that I want to express,
but I get vague. And that isthat wasn't the feeling I've
wanted to do this forever. Sothat was a clear yes, and I need
that
Colette Fehr (21:16):
push, yeah. You just needed me to be like, we're
doing it right now.
Laura Bowman (21:20):
Yeah, we're gonna do it now.
Colette Fehr (21:24):
I know I think this stuff is hard, but what
we're trying to tell you guys isjust start small if this is
challenging for you, becausepeople pleasing ultimately
doesn't make you happy. Andagain, it's not really about
being nice. It's really aboutavoiding discomfort. And it's
(21:46):
one of those things that themore you push back a little and
learn to tolerate a littlediscomfort, and that the worst
doesn't happen, or that theworst happens and you're still
standing the easier it becomesand then the more you feel clean
in your relationships, the moreconfidence you build, the
(22:07):
healthier and happier you'll be.
Laura Bowman (22:09):
And I think Gabor Mate writes about this in his
book, but he talks about howlike agreeableness and people
pleasing like literally killsyou, and that they have this.
This is like, I don't know howscientific this is, but he
writes about it in the book,that people who end up getting
diagnosed with like ALS, they'llgo in to do a consult, like a
(22:33):
neurological consult, and thenurse will come out and say,
like, I don't think they haveALS. They're not nice enough
that there's this short hand inthat diagnostic world that
patients, and this, like I said,is very unscientific, who get
als ultimately are like the mosthighly agreeable people. So they
(22:58):
don't know nice, they're toonice, they're too nice, and they
like, are not bound, likethey're just allow, they allow
the world to, and I don't knowwhat, and that's for a lot of
illnesses where people do notexpress themselves, and all of
this energy gets just trappedinside the body.
Colette Fehr (23:17):
I 100% believe that it's going to manifest
itself in some way in the body,because you're disowning,
disowning, disowning, disowning,build resentment, and it builds
into a whole kind of victimthing, where you're mad at the
world, but you really only haveyourself to blame. And I guess
the bottom line is, part ofbeing an adult is self defining
(23:41):
and letting people know whereyou begin and end, and you can
do it kindly. I think this is abig piece that I talk about a
lot on just about everyplatform. The more you use the
muscle, the easier it gets, andthe more you see that you can be
clear and direct and kind at thesame time. So you can say to
(24:04):
someone, oh, you know, I wish Icould help with that, but I
can't. I'm swamped right now.
You don't have to give anexcuse, but there's nothing
wrong with that. Or, you know,I'd love to help, but I'm not
available. Just a simple, right,simple, clear. It's so funny to
me too, when people say, Oh, asa therapist, you must have
people constantly, like all yourfriends, must come to you for
(24:28):
everything, and they don't. Ifsomeone really has a struggle,
they may turn to me, but I'm notavailable. 24/7, for free
advice. I mean, I'd never sleep.
Same thing with clients, right?
If we don't have boundaries astherapists, we wouldn't be able
to protect our energy for thetherapy room. I could be
(24:48):
emailing, texting, on phonecalls with clients all day and
night, and so could you, yeah,yeah. So it's really, it's your
health. But it's also, it'sjust, it's your emotional and
physical health, and it is youdon't have to be mean. I think
that's what people think likethat they they'll or
(25:10):
underdeveloped people will getmean. That's the only time they
can say that about is whenthey're angry. And what I do
that a lot. Yes, me too, andI've experienced that a lot from
other people. What I'm saying istake some time. And this is when
I want to get into a little bitof tips. If you're struggling
(25:31):
with something, write it outfirst, take some time to
prepare. Have some empathy forthe other person's position.
Work through all of that, writeit down, and then have some
empathy from the outside foryour position. Yeah, you know,
imagine somebody in your lifethat you love dearly, maybe even
(25:52):
your child if you have children,because you'd probably want your
child to be able to say no toyou and not feel guilty and
think about yourself that way.
Externalize a
Laura Bowman (26:06):
little, you know, that I love that tip, yeah, I
think
Colette Fehr (26:10):
it really helps and prepare your answer. I mean,
I used to write this stuff outwith the assertiveness formula,
you know, when you I feelbecause yes, yes, I can or
can't. And that stuff can reallyhelp. And
Laura Bowman (26:24):
another thing, because I have, like, that
reflexive agreeableness, likethis is like agreeableness is
almost like a defensive strategyfor me, like I'm gonna agree,
I'm gonna agree because I justwant to get through. I want to
get sometimes I want to get awayfrom people. So I think
sometimes agreeing is thequickest way to get through this
is just my own pathology, right?
And and so sometimes, like, theagreeableness is coming out of
(26:49):
my mouth before my brain hastime to, like, even think it
through, yeah. And what I've hadto do is buy myself time where
I'm like, can I get that? Can Iget back to you? Like, I gotta
look at my schedule. I'm notsure what's going on. Let me
circle back because I can't inthe moment. I haven't even been
able to check in with me becauseI usually have to get a loan for
(27:12):
that. Like, I don't even know myanswer yet, yes. So if you find
yourself doing what I do, likemake sure you just buy yourself
some time. I
Colette Fehr (27:24):
love that tip. I think that's really, really
helpful, because I'm thinkingabout social situations where
someone throws something out andyou're right before you even
know it, you're saying yes, andyou may not amazing Yeah, and I
you don't want to not I don'twant to not honor my word, and
like you're saying, you mightnot know whether it works for
(27:45):
you or not. So get in the habitof slowing that whole roll down
and telling people, though,thanks for the offer. Let me
look at my schedule and or letme think about it and get back
to you, right? And you know, I,what I have found is that most
of the time when you say no oryou can't do something, or you
get better at not peoplepleasing, people are actually
(28:08):
pretty conciliatory and respectit. Yes, it's really not so bad.
It's the anticipation of all ofthis yuck that often doesn't
come.
Laura Bowman (28:22):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And as you sit down, like
what I was talking about withour relationship, as you say no,
within relationships, it givesthe other person permission to
have their No, yeah, yeah. Andso I actually reject the idea
that it makes relationshipsweaker. I think it makes
relationships, oh, far safer andstronger.
Colette Fehr (28:44):
Oh, I agree, it does. I think it's just our
perception. And, you know, thereare those people in our lives,
and this is how most people havecome by this, that they've had
someone close who isn't greatabout it, yeah, and does make it
feel as though the relationshipis threatened and or if you've
ever been rewarded like you weredescribing in your childhood,
(29:06):
role for being the agreeableone, being the one who makes
people happy. You know, I lookat my father and everybody says
how nice my dad is, and it'strue, and yet it's got a
pathological component he has,in many ways, become The Giving
Tree, sacrificed himself way toomuch to take care of others. And
(29:30):
yeah, you know, it's not totallyaltruistic. He thinks it is. The
conscious brain thinks it is.
But the secondary gain, which isreally the primary reward is
feeling good, the good feelingyou have when you make somebody
else happy. Of course, we wantto take care of other people to
a degree, and be helpers.
(29:53):
There's a positive quality tothat, but if it's coming at the
expense of your essential self,it's too far. Are, and that's
when I think it's worth lookingin the mirror and saying, Okay,
how can I self define a littlemore? How could I protect
myself, my health, my peace? CanI just flex this muscle a little
(30:13):
and show myself I can do it? I
Laura Bowman (30:16):
love that self define a little more. Yeah, I
love that, I love that, I lovethat. Now tell me, as I was
thinking, as you're talkingabout your dad, do you have any
more complicated issues, notpeople pleasing your kids?
Colette Fehr (30:32):
Wait, do I have?
Yeah, like,
Laura Bowman (30:34):
do you run into any, like, stickiness, not like
doing people pleasing? Yeah,actually,
Colette Fehr (30:39):
that's and I'm surprising that I haven't said
this sooner. That's probably theplace that I've been the worst.
Yeah, and now I've pushed backquite a bit, and one of the
things that's helped is sayingthis very saying this very
explicitly to my girls. Youknow, I think I have been too
(30:59):
much of an enabler. I think I'vebeen too much of a coddler in
certain ways. I think I haddivorce guilt, yeah, for a long
time, and I think that was partof it for my dad too, you know.
And we're not doing our kids anyfavors. So my daughters get it.
One of them's a little betterabout accepting my pushback. The
(31:19):
other will really push and pushand push and push and push. And
you know, that's another thingwe haven't mentioned, as I'm
kind of rambling here, somepeople will, will really keep
pushing. They won't accept yourno and that's tough.
Laura Bowman (31:36):
That's really tough. I have a couple places in
my life where that occurs, andit's really hard on me, and it
pisses me off. Yeah, it feelsreally unfair.
Colette Fehr (31:48):
Yeah, I agree. I feel that way too. I have, I can
think of two places in my life Ihave that and I feel that same
way. It's like, Shut the up. Isaid, No,
Laura Bowman (31:58):
kind of like, How dare you, like, I wouldn't ask
this of you, or I wouldn't putthis crap on you, yeah,
Colette Fehr (32:03):
or just people want their own agenda, and
they're going to get needling.
Now I will say I think I wasthat person who would like keep
going, Oh, come on, but whatabout this? Or what about that?
Or, and I've tried to get betterabout that now, and accepting
someone's no when they say no,because I know the value of it
and the importance of it, and Iknow what it's like to be on the
(32:25):
other side. I think it's reallyimportant to respect that. And
you know, Laura, to your pointabout agreeableness. I mean, I
don't think there are manypeople who would probably
describe me as, like, easygoing, fun loving, but probably
not easy going, because I'mintense, and I have my things
that I don't like, and I'm vocalabout it, but there are a lot of
(32:48):
things I actually am easygoingabout. I just don't care, and
I'm happy to be like, okay,whatever. It's not that you
never do that. It's just if Isay, You know what, I don't care
you pick. Then you can trustthat I mean that, yes,
Laura Bowman (33:05):
that it's not just you push stuff
Colette Fehr (33:09):
right, right? If you say, hey, like, whenever we
meet for like, food, you'll belike, I don't feel like that. Or
I'm like, No. Or I'll be like, Idon't care you pick. And then I
really mean that I don't care ifI cared or I had a craving or an
opinion, I would tell you
Laura Bowman (33:24):
I don't have any problem having my own opinions.
That's one thing that's like,really clear to me,
Colette Fehr (33:28):
right? But I think for a lot of people, the
unconscious, automatic idea,especially in a group,
especially for women, becausewe're still thought of, if a
woman goes after what she wants,there's still all of this. She's
a bitch. She's aggressive. Andassertiveness is not
aggressiveness. It's just beingclear and direct but still being
(33:53):
diplomatic at the same time.
Yeah, so yes, these muscles,yeah,
Laura Bowman (33:59):
it's a great thing to get good at. I think your
life gets cleaned up prettynicely when this is an area you
get good at, yes and and I'vejust watched clients who are
strong in people pleasing andagreeableness and all of this,
they get just loaded down like adesert camel with, like, all
(34:22):
kinds of baggage. Yes, and theylike, just plod through life
carrying things that do notbelong to them. Yes, and it's,
it's heartbreaking to watch,
Colette Fehr (34:34):
or you become the shell Silverstein giving tree.
You become the stump, which, ifyou have not read that book, or
if you have read it again, it issuch a good book, you know, the
tree gives and gives and givesto this little boy until it has
absolutely nothing left, andstill the boy is asking for
(34:54):
more. You are going to havethose people in your life who
don't care. They don't have acon. Anxious about it. They're
narcissistic, they're selfish,whatever the case may be, but it
is up to you. It is not up toother people. You can't rely on
other people to make this easierfor you. So let's review the
tips again before we wrap uphere that first start practicing
(35:16):
on people is easier with pickyour most accepting friend, let
that or your spouse, yourpartner, your mother or father,
if you have a close relationshipwith them, and let that person
know. Hey, I'm really working onthis. Can I practice with you?
Laugh about it right? Lighten itup, but get that muscle going.
Just do a couple bicep curls
Laura Bowman (35:39):
and write about it if you don't know how you feel,
which I think a lot of peoplewho are high in people pleasing
aren't connected to self, right?
So spend some time going how toget your feelings. Wheel out.
How do I really feel about this?
What do I really think aboutthis? Write it out. Rehearse,
yeah, and then distill it downinto something that's like, warm
(36:00):
and that the other person canhear, but really does state your
true feeling, right,
Colette Fehr (36:05):
warm and firm. And your tip, which I absolutely
love, is buy yourself some timein the moment. Get in the habit
of saying, oh, you know, I'llget back to you. I need to think
about that so that you do havetime to process. Yep, and what I
said about externalizingpractice putting your situation
(36:26):
into, like, the shoes of yourchild or someone you really care
about, who you would want to beable to honor themselves and say
no, and that'll give you someempathy for yourself as you're
doing this. Yeah. And
Laura Bowman (36:39):
finally, like, cultivate the relationships
where you have safety and you'reallowed to say no, and there's
reciprocity and it and it feelsreally like good and safe, like
we don't. You don't need to bogyourself down in relationships
where people are pushing on youall of the time, exactly.
Colette Fehr (37:00):
Really spend your time investing in the ones that
are safe enough to say no, or Idon't want to, or my opinion, is
different from yours, like us,
Unknown (37:09):
yes,
Colette Fehr (37:12):
and if you guys want to take the are you a
people pleaser test fromPsychology Today, go to our
website, insights from thecouch.org. And you can download
it there, and please leave ussome comments. Send us an email
with your questions. We wouldlove to hear from you. We're
grateful to you all forlistening. Oh, and don't forget
(37:33):
to write us a review if youhaven't already. That would be
so helpful. And we're so gladyou listened to another episode
of insights from the couch. Wehope you got some good insights
from
Laura Bowman (37:44):
our couch. I'll see you next time bye, guys bye.
You.
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