In this heartfelt episode, we’re joined by our dear friend and fellow therapist, Helen Keeling-Neal, as she bravely shares her journey through grief after the sudden loss of her husband. Helen opens up about the profound and unexpected challenges that come with navigating life as a young widow and single mom, all while finding ways to heal, grow, and embrace a new path forward. Whether you’ve experienced a similar loss or simply want to support a loved one going through grief, Helen’s story is full of insights, compassion, and real-life wisdom.
We explore the complexities of grief, from the early shock and survival mode to the ongoing journey of healing and finding purpose. Helen discusses the tools and support systems that helped her, including therapy and community, and she offers invaluable advice on how to be there for someone experiencing loss.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] - Introducing Helen Keeling-Neal and her story of sudden loss.
[2:00] - The immediate impact of losing a spouse and going into “survival mode.”
[3:26] - Dealing with the “business of death” and the logistics of loss.
[6:54] - Finding support: How friends, family, and community showed up.
[9:36] - Coping strategies: Therapy, EMDR, and the importance of avoiding quick fixes.
[12:58] - Raising young children through grief and balancing career shifts.
[17:51] - Understanding attachment and compound grief in the healing process.
[23:31] - Moving forward in new relationships and dealing with fears of loss.
[29:19] - Top tips for navigating grief and healing after losing a loved one.
Resources:
- For EMDR therapy: https://www.emdria.org/
- For ART: https://acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com/
- To find a therapist for grief near you: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
- 🔥Get Clear on What You Want in Your Sex Life: Free Download!
For more on this topic visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!
If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:00):
Helen, welcome back, everyone. Thanks for
(00:05):
listening. We are here todaywith Helen Keeling Neil, our
dear friend and also colleague.
She is a licensed Marriage andFamily Therapist, licensed
mental health counselor with aprivate practice in Winter Park,
Florida, and an all around,fabulous human being, and we're
in for a real treat today,because even though it's a
difficult subject matter, it'sone that's really important to
(00:28):
discuss. Helen lost her husbandat an unexpectedly young age,
and has found a way to movethrough grief and live her best
life, and we really want you tohear about how she did that,
what she's been through, and thehopes that it will help those of
you who are dealing withsomething similar, and maybe a
(00:49):
friends and family going throughthat as well. So welcome, Helen.
I'm going to shut up now, and Iwant to turn over the floor to
you a little bit. It's
Helen Keeling-Neal (00:59):
good to be here. I think this is a really
important topic, no matter whatage you lose someone at. For me,
I was 42 my kids were four andsix. David was 10 years older
than me, and it was very quick.
It was very sudden. We'd knownsomething was going on. We
thought it was maybe to do withhis stomach, and had him checked
out at the gastroenterologistand things like that. And three
(01:21):
months later, he was in chronicliver failure, so he had liver
cancer, yes, and so we actually,from when we found that out, he
went into the hospital and nevercame out. He ended up passing
away in hospice, but it wasabout about two and a half
weeks, and then he was, what,yeah, wow. Very quick, very
(01:44):
shocking, very powerless placeto be. Yeah, super fast. Doing
this a long time ago. Clearly,I'm not 42 anymore, but Well,
you look at Judy. Oh, yeah,thank you.
Laura Bowman (02:00):
How many years ago was that at this client? 1009
Helen Keeling-Neal (02:04):
so it's come coming up on 15 Wow.
Laura Bowman (02:08):
So a 15 year journey of, I mean, take us
into, like, how you process thatjust initially? I mean,
obviously it's so unexpected.
Well, you
Helen Keeling-Neal (02:17):
don't, you don't process it initially. You
go into survival mode, orshutdown mode, or num mode, or
mum mode. I went into mum mode.
My kids were so little, theywere attached to him, and so
that's what I had to do. Thatkind of loss, and any loss,
especially when you have kids,it's like you're losing you're
not just losing your husband,but you're losing an income,
(02:39):
you're losing the guy who cutsthe lawn, you know, you're
losing BEDTIME STORY dad and theperson who grills in the family,
and the second set of eyes andall of this. So it's like this
loss across the board that youdon't even think about until it
happens.
Colette Fehr (02:58):
I'm just even listening to you. I've known you
all these years, and I did notknow the story of what happened,
or just how sudden it was, howyoung your children were, and
for this to all transpire withina period of about two weeks,
were you just in shock for along period of time? Or, I mean,
(03:21):
how do you even get through theday when this first occurs?
Helen Keeling-Neal (03:26):
Yeah, I this might sound some kind of harsh,
but I think after someone passesaway, or is in the process of a
sudden, tragic thing like this,there's like you go into the
business of death. It's like youhave to handle the business of
it, the logistics, the you know,for me as somebody who wanted to
(03:49):
really take care of my kids, andthe way the story went, we went
into the hospital, they told me,originally, 18 months, and then
they assessed them again. Theysaid probably about 12 months.
And then a couple days laterthey said, No, we're looking at
about six to nine months. Andthen they told me, he's good
about eight weeks. And then theysaid this was all in space for a
few days. He's probably goodabout seven days, and that's how
(04:12):
quickly that happens. So I hadto set in place, and I feel
grateful that I was able to dothis the things that we might
need. So I'd already went to NewHope for Children, grieving
family, because I knew I wasgoing to need that as a resource
for my kids. I was alreadyreaching out to family, because,
I mean family in town, thingslike that. So I went into
(04:34):
business mode, logistics mode.
You got the funeral, theservice, and you're dealing with
a lot of people who are superkind. And, you know, there's
jokes about the endless lasagnasand stuffed shells, and it's
true, but it's also delightful,and I got to feed some neighbors
with that, because there was somuch food and and so much care.
So it's not really, I think,until later in the quiet
(04:56):
moments. Are really hard toallow that the real grief starts
to process, and that can beyears later for people. You
know, I think about six monthslater, things got quieter.
People weren't calling as much.
(05:17):
That's when, you know, I wouldbe curled up on the floor
sobbing, and my kids just oh, itwas heartbreaking. Either the
older one, who was six, knewmuch my kids were really chewing
Dan, you know, and just grievedso loudly, and the younger one,
she didn't know she was grievingso she would get so upset. And
(05:40):
this was a four year old whodidn't have tantrums, you we,
you know, and hadn't said shewas around too you would check
the door in her room so hard shecracked the wall because she was
so upset that they didn't haveblueberry flavor Italian ice.
Now, we both know, we all know,wasn't the Italian a wasn't
(06:01):
Italian ice, and so having todeal with that on that's when
you put your own grief aside.
That's when you can't and makean income, and, you know, keep
the house tight and do thelaundry and keep their schedule
as normal as possible, bedtimesand story and and school and all
of that. It comes in pods, andit's completely non linear. And
(06:23):
we all, you know, we know thestages of of grief, and I think
you can have all of them once.
You can have one, and then canbe a big gap and and the things
to look out for are, you know,don't dive into substance use
and another relationship, yeah,really important.
Laura Bowman (06:41):
Did you have anyone to support you like does
does family come and stay withyou or rally next to you? Are
you like alone with these smallchildren for the bulk of this
journey?
Helen Keeling-Neal (06:54):
But first, I had a lot of support and, you
know, and I have to say that assomeone who is used to being the
supporter, I had to reallyadjust my mindset around that
and learn how to receive. AndI'm very big on working with my
clients, on on receiving andencouraging people to ask, and
(07:15):
when people say, What can I do?
Oh, I'm fine and good bespecific. And also it's
something that's important toknow is you don't know what you
need sometimes in the event ofthat. So having someone say,
Hey, I'm gonna bring you somefood. I'm gonna drop it off on
your doorstep. Don't worry, youcan freeze it is great. But as
(07:37):
far as support, I had an amazingcommunity where I lived, a lot
of really, really strongfriends. My mom flew in from
England, was here for a coupleof weeks, and my good friend
Molly came into town, andDavid's family came into town,
then everybody goes away after acouple of weeks. Yes, this is
what
Colette Fehr (07:57):
I hear people talk about, who my my really dear
friend, just lost her father,and obviously it's a different
situation. He was an older man,but they still were not prepared
for it at all. And a lot of whatyou're saying reminds me of what
she said. So I think thisconversation is important for
everyone who's lost anyone intheir life that you know, at
(08:21):
first you are, I love yourfriends, the business of death
that you have to function. Andso maybe you're not even in
shock yet, or you're certainlynot in the Stages of Grief yet,
because you there's just so muchto do, yeah, that has to be
accomplished. You only have theluxury of feeling your feelings.
(08:41):
And then it's not till, youknow, I've heard other people
and clients talk about this,that after somebody passes,
there's all these people aroundyou, and then people go back to
their normal lives. And that'swhen you're alone and you have
the space to sit with theenormity of what's happened, and
it begins to sink in, yeah? Soit makes a lot of sense. But I
(09:05):
think if you haven't beenthrough it, and I haven't been
through it, knock on wood withanyone so close to me, you know,
I can't imagine how hard thatmust be when it begins to sink
in, yeah. So what kind of thingswhen you're saying, Don't go to
substance abuse, don't getinvolved with someone else, and
I can see how tempting both ofthose things would be. What are
(09:27):
some of the things you did thathelped you cope when it began to
sink in and you started feelingyour feelings?
Helen Keeling-Neal (09:36):
Therapy.
Therapy is huge. EMDR, you know,really helpful. I try to live a
normal life with that kind ofloss. It just wakes you up into
this pentacrest. But it's like,what the fuck kind of
circumstance where everythingelse. Seems small in comparison.
(09:59):
So the things that might havebeen a big irritation before it
just goes away, because it'slike, well, nobody died today.
That's and honestly, definitelymantra, nobody died today, I'm
in recovery. So I went torecovery meetings, I would raise
my hand and say, I'm a highrisk. I'm a high risk. And, you
know, so that I could getthrough this, sober and be
(10:19):
present for my kids. Yeah,having close friends that you
can sit and cry with, that canhold that space for you and not
need to make you feel better,rescuing you from it. Yes, yes.
But there comes a stage where,like you want to, I wanted to be
able to do that right, to ventit out when it came up, but
(10:40):
Griff is like a sneaky benchbecause it blindsides you just
at the most inopportune moments.
And I remember I heard about 11months after David died, I went
on a date. Was a nice date, wentfor dinner, gave her a hug
goodbye, and had the wrongcologne on. The smell was the
(11:03):
wrong spot. I went home and Icried for three days. I just
just never think about thingslike that, what that's going to
be like? It's
Colette Fehr (11:12):
not your person.
And it all of a sudden thatgrief just comes surging up.
Helen Keeling-Neal (11:17):
Another thing I did, I went to grief.
Share, I don't know if you'veheard of grief share, no, what's
grief? Share? It is done througha church. And I'm not a
particularly churchy person, butI met this lovely lady who was
an older lady, and she said, whydon't you come to grief share,
and it's to help process grief,and it's, it's non
denominational. And that wasreally helpful, because
everybody in the room had lostsomeone, and that was really
(11:40):
good. And then you hoped forgrieving children and families,
because the parents would havetheir own session while the kids
had their sessions.
Colette Fehr (11:49):
Oh, that's amazing. That's great. So you
really recommend, and it makessense to me as a therapist like
this shared experience of beingwith others who have are going
through something similar, thatthat's an important component, I
would think of healing huge.
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:07):
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (12:08):
I have a client doing that right now. She lost
her dad unexpectedly, and it's ahuge help. Let me, let me ask
you, Ellen, I'm assuming, likehaving young kids, were you
working at the time, or were youlike a stay at home mom.
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:22):
So I was working part time, just doing
some business consulting andteaching mommy and me art
classes, consulting for an artstudio called my art studio. And
we've been on through a lot ofdifficulties. Because it was the
recession, David had lost hisjob. There was a lot of stuff
going on, so we're in a veryfinancially difficult position,
(12:42):
and so I actually had to get afull time job immediately after
he passed away. So it was aboutthree weeks later I was working
full time.
Laura Bowman (12:52):
What did you decide to do? Like, what? What
did you find in terms of fulltime work in that moment?
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:58):
Yes, well, I'm very grateful, because the
art studio had wanted me to comeon as director previously, but
I'd said no, so I went on fulltime as the director for my art
studio and did a had a full timeafter school program and field
trips and things like that. Thatwas a real gift for me, because
I was able to leave, pick up mykids and bring them back to the
(13:19):
studio, because my priority wasmy kids. Yeah, but I had to make
a decision, and this is adecision which is a difficult
one to make. I had to make adecision to not make a very high
income, because I needed to bereally present for my kids. I
could have gone into, you know,three plus figure position, but
(13:42):
shows less because of the timeand what and flexibility I
needed, and that was a reallydifficult thing, and it meant I,
you know, I lost the house thatI lived in, and had to move into
a smaller house, but I did thaton purpose, because I needed to
not have that be sooverwhelming, the overhead be so
(14:03):
overwhelming that I would justhave nothing for my kids and
would be working like 56 hours aweek, right?
Colette Fehr (14:11):
You needed to prioritize your time with the
kids and balance that in thedecision. And I wonder Helen,
you know, as we're all threetherapists here, and for our
listeners who may be grievingthe loss of someone or surely
it's something we're all goingto face at some point, I have
seen many clients over the yearsbefore I decided to only do
(14:32):
couples therapy in particular,who would move through the
stages of grief and come to someresolution, and Then those who
would, you know, not resolution,but acceptance, and then those
who would really get stuck inthe grief and not progress. And
one of the things I've noticed,and I'm curious your take on
this, is that many of those whowere able to successfully move
(14:55):
through the grief and come toacceptance created a narrative.
Narrative of what happened thatthey could live with. And
doesn't mean that it minimizedthe pain, but they found a way
to make sense of and come toterms with it. Did you have to
develop some because I wouldimagine that you're you know,
(15:17):
how does this happen to me? Howcould this have happened,
especially when it's a tragic,untimely thing. Did you have to
come up with some kind ofnarrative that explained why
this occurred, or to help youlive with the unthinkable?
Helen Keeling-Neal (15:32):
I really didn't, but I'm a little
different in that way.
Personally, I'm very much a sortof living in alignment kind of
person.
Colette Fehr (15:40):
Can you explain what that means too? Can you
explain what living in alignmentmeans? So,
Helen Keeling-Neal (15:45):
you know, I don't go to why did this happen?
I go to more. This sucks thatthis happened. This isn't fair
that it happened, but it didhappen. What do I need to do now
to move through it? Did
Laura Bowman (15:58):
you feel sorry for yourself, though? Was there,
like, was there strong feelingsof, like, Why me?
Helen Keeling-Neal (16:04):
I think the feelings didn't come in the
thought of, why me. They came incomplete overwhelm, yeah, like,
it's not fair to be sooverwhelmed. Like, that's not
okay. I have a lot of things Iwent through early childhood and
things like that too, that madelife very difficult for me. So I
(16:25):
think I was like, What the Thisis not fucking fair. Yeah. So
it's more anger,
Unknown (16:30):
really too much for one person's life, but then
Helen Keeling-Neal (16:34):
on the other side, but it is what it is, and
therefore what am I going to do,and how am I going to handle it,
and how I'm going to movethrough it. No one's talked to
that getting stuck. I'm prettyconvinced that getting stuck
piece is related to compoundgrief and attachment. More about
that? Yes. Pink set, theneurologist, he talks about the
seven affect networks in one ofthem is panic slash grief, which
(16:59):
is the abandonment, theloneliness and those kind of
elements. And so what I see, andcertainly with some of my
experiences, if you've lostsomeone significant earlier, or
if you have an attachment woundfor an unavailable or non
present, or non emotionallypresent caregiver, you can get
(17:21):
stuck in an aspect of yourselfthat is looping the grief. That
seems like it's about this loss,but it isn't. It's an earlier
attachment wound or an earlierloss.
Laura Bowman (17:32):
That makes sense.
Colette Fehr (17:33):
Yeah, that was going to say the same thing.
That makes perfect sense. Andwhen I think about the clients
who come to mind, that makessense with their attachment
history as well. So in the caseof the point you're bringing up
for somebody listening, youknow, this is where going to
therapy is really going to beimportant, really
Helen Keeling-Neal (17:52):
important, right? Because it's hard to pass
apart, because I had some ofthat too, because I lost my dad
when I was younger, and it was alot of stuff, right? So you it
feels so huge, it feelsinsurmountable. And so a good
therapist can help you with someEMDR, or you have a tea or
whatever, you know, modalitythat works for you to really
(18:16):
kind of pull that apart, so youcan process this and then
process this and process this.
It
Laura Bowman (18:21):
sounds like you did a lot of work prior though
Colette Fehr (18:24):
I did. You've mentioned EMDR twice, and now
art and our listeners, most ofthem probably don't know what
those things are. Can you justgive a very top line
explanation? Because somebodygoing through grief may want to
look for a therapist in theirarea who does these modalities
that are so helpful. So do youwant to just share a little more
about what those are and whythey're so effective?
Helen Keeling-Neal (18:46):
Yes. EMDR stands for eye movement
desensitization, reprocessing,and so it's a way using
bilateral movements, whetherit's tapping or tracking with
your eyes, to process the traumain connection with the grief and
loss. So a lot of times the it'snot pretty, the end of life can
be not pretty and very traumaticto see. Yeah. So the way that
(19:10):
you do that is you can walkthrough releasing the stored
trauma around the event andaround loss and a RT. I'm not
trained in, but I know otherpeople who are trained in it
accelerated resolution, theory,I think, and therapy, therapy,
thank you. And that's a similarprocess too. Yes,
Colette Fehr (19:30):
thank you. Helen and I actually did, the
practitioner in my office istrained in art, and I did two
sessions with her, not on well,on another kind of grief, a
relationship grief, and it'sactually very similar to EMDR,
which you and I are both trainedin. And these are, I do think
it's worth saying, you know, ifyou're going through something
(19:54):
like this, the loss of a lovedone, grief and trauma around
that EMDR, or. Therapy can helpyou move through it much more
quickly and deeply, because whenwe talk things through, it's so
valuable, but it's really moreof a cognitive process. And when
you get beneath all of that,into the body more deeply and
(20:17):
into those stored memories thatare less conscious, it helps
you, like you said, release someof that. So I think we all
probably would suggest to anylisteners that those therapies
are worth looking into. And ourwebsite insights from the
couch.org, we will include linksto those therapies so you can
(20:38):
look into that more thoroughly,as well as look for a therapist
trained in those modalities inyour area. I think that's really
useful advice for people.
Laura Bowman (20:47):
What was the beginning of the shifting out of
this, where you began to feellike, I can raise these kids,
I've got this I'm healing like,what was the what was the
journey through? I'm sure it'sstill going on, but
Helen Keeling-Neal (21:03):
in some way, because every developmental
milestone, every mile marker,for them and for me as an
absence, right? So if it'sstarting first grade or second
grade, or graduating high schoolor going to college, so it's
always going to be a lost dance.
But you know, the Queen Mother,she had this great saying, and
(21:24):
it was, it doesn't get better. Iget better at it. And she's
talking about grief. I love thatI've seen often the image of a
jar, and it's packed full ofstones, and that's grief. And
then a next image will be it's abigger jar, and so the palace
stones look smaller. Time reallydoes heal. And if one's mindful
(21:51):
of processing the emotions asthey come up, allowing them to
really come out. Often, we do aneven deeper healing when you get
into another relationship. Youcan't really do that loss if
it's a significant other, untilyou're in a love relationship
(22:15):
that is really connected,because it just kicks up a whole
tennis shirt, a whole bunch ofstuff. Have you
Laura Bowman (22:28):
had that experience? You had that
experience? Tell us about that.
Helen Keeling-Neal (22:32):
Yeah, I guess it was about maybe 18
months. I had a relationshipthat lasted about a year and
three months, but I was neverreally fully in love with him,
but in that relationship, I didsome grieving, but then I didn't
really have a very long termrelationship for a number of
(22:53):
years after that, for a longtime, two and a half years ago,
I met someone, and I fell inlove, and it was like fully hit
terrifying, because the thoughtwas, What if I lose them again?
Yeah, so all this stuff came up.
And two and a half years is notthat long in a relationship, you
(23:14):
know? And then here's this pieceof now, bringing him into my
family, with my kids and allthat components, and it's really
easy in some ways, to just stayout of a relationship. I didn't
want to bring a lot of people inand out. I didn't want to do a
lot of dating because of mykids, you know, so but then I
(23:34):
went a little bit the other way.
Colette Fehr (23:39):
Have you found that being in a committed
relationship now, despite thefear that it's brought a lot of
healing,
Laura Bowman (23:47):
it's great. Oh, good. I'm so glad it's good. But
is it, does it still feel sowildly vulnerable? Or have you
worked through that?
Helen Keeling-Neal (23:56):
I've worked through that? Yes, so And Helen,
maybe
Colette Fehr (23:59):
there isn't one, but I'm just curious what you
would say to somebody goingthrough this, like, do you see
your own personal opinion kindof an ideal time to circulate? I
mean, obviously everyone's gotto tune into themselves and when
they feel ready. But are thereany like, do's and don'ts around
getting into otherrelationships?
Helen Keeling-Neal (24:18):
Well, I don't think there is an ideal
time. If you take somebody whois 70 years old and has maybe
been with their partner for 50years, and then that person may
not even be able to be without arelationship, because that has
been what has fed them for solong. So you know, I'd say a lot
(24:42):
of seniors will go more quicklyinto a relationship. And, you
know, go for it. I think thethings to look out for is, if
you have children, you need tobe cautious, because they've
already lost someone, yes, andthey don't expect them to attach
to this new person. Don't, youknow, if. You fall in love with
this person does not mean thatthey're going to and so there's
(25:04):
a lot to navigate there. Youreally need to be mindful about
that, and, and, and so that'swhy don't do it so quickly. Be
mindful of not using it to avoidthe grief
Laura Bowman (25:16):
your kids are like adults by the time you fall in
love, right? Yes, yeah. How didthey receive your partner? Were
they happy for you by thatpoint, like, come on, Mommy, you
need to do this. Yes.
Helen Keeling-Neal (25:27):
So yeah. So it was about 10 months after
David died, my eldest. It was soheartbreaking, and she goes,
lovely. What am I gonna get? Anew daddy? Heartbreaking. She
couldn't conceptualize nothaving a new death, not having a
dad. Could not, could not justlike it was so heartbreaking. Oh
(25:51):
my god, yeah, you have to beaware of the wound this creates
for children, and especiallyzero to six, as far as
attachment goes, you know,there's a big old like, it's,
it's a wood, but it's a wound,no matter what. But they do
great, yes, that's awesome, and
Colette Fehr (26:08):
they're happy.
That's amazing.
Laura Bowman (26:10):
I love that. Oh yeah, we skipped over, like, the
whole part of this story whereyou build this career. So that
happens,
Colette Fehr (26:18):
yes, and become a therapist, yeah, yeah,
Helen Keeling-Neal (26:22):
you really invested in you. I did and, but,
you know, therewere a lot of reasons that I
went into third grads thoughtabout it. I remember going to a
Rollins information session witha two year old and a newborn
into, you know, like, and I'mthinking, Oh, no, I can't do
this at this time. But afterDavid died, I thought to myself,
life needs to be done in a waythat I want to do it. And what
(26:46):
do I want to do? It has beenI've thought about it for a long
time, and I thought, well, whatam I waiting for? Why am I
waiting this? You just literallydon't know if you're going to be
here tomorrow or if anybody elseis going to be here tomorrow.
Why would I wait to move towardssomething? So I did. I applied,
and I got my masters and becamelicensed. And another reason I
(27:08):
did. I had a very specific goal.
I was going to go right intoprivate practice. I needed to be
able to manage my own work hoursso that I could set my own
schedule, so I could beavailable for my kids. And
everybody would say, you'regoing to have to work evenings.
I said, I'm not workingevenings. And I never did. I
never worked evenings right fromthe get go. Good for you. I
(27:29):
wanted to keep my kids apriority with that. It wasn't
anybody else to be with them,wasn't another family member,
and it wasn't in the budget tohave babysitters. So you had
Colette Fehr (27:38):
to get right into action, and you did. You didn't
have the luxury of just, youknow, collapsing and hiding in
your bedroom. You had to be anactive mother. You had to be an
earner. There were really, therewas really no option but to keep
waking up every day and puttingone foot in front of the other,
(27:59):
yeah,
Helen Keeling-Neal (27:59):
because I would collapse and hide in the
bedroom or in collapse. Butyeah, you have to keep going.
Laura Bowman (28:07):
You had to function. And let's just say how
normal that is, the collapsingin the bedroom. I mean, I still
hear that with women who havegone through some terrible
divorces that were not there,like just the at night,
collapsing and feeling hopelessand despair. And that's like
part of the process seems reallyimportant to get that out, to
(28:27):
have, like,
Helen Keeling-Neal (28:28):
to be sobbing so hard that your pillow
is wet. Need to do that. Reallyimportant. If we store it, we
just gonna Oh, and it just turnsinto other stones.
Colette Fehr (28:39):
Oh my gosh. I agree so much. And actually this
is probably the perfect seguewhat you're saying right now as
we wrap up the episode, to givesome tips and takeaways for
people going through grief ofany kind, you know, one that I
hear you saying now isabsolutely feel your feelings.
Give yourself permission, havethat time to cry and sub you
(29:01):
have to work through theemotions, and of course, you've
also said going to therapy andmaybe seeking something deeper
than just talk therapy even.
What else would you say are yourtop tips for somebody going
through grief?
Helen Keeling-Neal (29:19):
Don't judge yourself in it. Stay away from
that. I don't know why I'mcrying or it's been six months.
I should be feeling better ordoing better. Let yourself be
angry. I think that's a reallybig part that we don't always
allow. Let yourself be angry atthe person for dying. Let
yourself be angry at God. Letyourself be angry at the world
(29:40):
or the disease, or the personwho created it, or the car,
really let yourself be in thatthat's beautiful and mindful of
guilt. Make sure to work throughany guilt, the times that I
nagged him, or the times that Iwas like, why aren't you home?
And. I working so much,reflecting on and wishing I'd
(30:03):
been kinder or more patient inthings. So really turn a lens of
kindness on yourself andunderstanding, and reach out to
the people who can sit with bigfeelings, your friends and your
family. And the other thing is,activate your play network, do
something fun. The Oh, I loveride a roller coaster. Go do
(30:25):
whatever is fun for you thatused to be funny you think may
not even be fun. Try and pushyourself to do it because it
will help. Oh, that's a greatsuggestion,
Colette Fehr (30:35):
because I think sometimes people feel like they
shouldn't be having any fun, orshouldn't be doing anything
good. And it's so important tofeel your big and sad and hurt,
hurtful feelings, but also to golive and not lift yourself up
for that. And then, of course,you also said earlier to some
kind of support group if youhave children, perhaps they need
(30:57):
that too, if you've lost aspouse, but also for you, if you
can find a local group at achurch or someplace else with
other people going throughgrief, that that will really,
really help. I mean, these aresuch powerful, important
takeaways. Anything else thatyou want to add? I certainly
think this is enough, but I wantto give you a chance. If there's
(31:19):
anything else that you feel likeis really important.
Helen Keeling-Neal (31:23):
I want to add something for the people who
are supporting the person who'slost someone. One of the things
you know a lot of times, aftersome period of time, it was
almost like my identity, mycommunity, became the person
whose husband had died, and mykids, it was the kids whose dad
had died, and sometimes you justwant to feel normal. So the pity
(31:46):
eyes, whenever someone would seeme, some people go right into
the pity eyes. And I know thatthat's empathy and and know that
that's care. But sometimes youjust want to be a person who is
going to work or doing thelaundry or making a dinner, and
so take your cues from theperson who's grieving.
Laura Bowman (32:09):
It's good advice.
Colette Fehr (32:10):
That's great advice that's helpful for me to
hear just as a person, because Ithink I'm one of those people
who probably has the pity eyesand is trying to exercise, but
sometimes you don't, you don'twant to be living in the space
of it every minute of every day.
Great. Yes, so helpful, andwe're so happy to have had you.
And we're going to give links toEMDR therapy, art therapy, and
(32:34):
all that good stuff, so that ifyou're going through this, or,
you know someone who is you havesolutions that can help. And I
love Helen, how you said, myfavorite thing, it doesn't get
better. I get better at it. Imean, I think that's just a
beautiful synopsis of the crazyand up and down process of
(32:58):
grief, right? You've got to giveit time.
Laura Bowman (33:04):
And so glad to hear that you're so happy and
your family is good, that'sawesome. You're
Colette Fehr (33:09):
in love and you're in love. Oh God, yay for
Laura Bowman (33:12):
love. We love love,
Colette Fehr (33:16):
all right. Well, thank you so much everyone for
listening, and don't forget tocheck out resources from this
episode and more at insightsfrom the couch.org. Thank you,
Helen, and we'll see you nexttime.
Laura Bowman (33:30):
Take care, everybody.
Unknown (33:36):
You.
Helen, welcome back, everyone. Thanks for
(00:05):
listening. We are here todaywith Helen Keeling Neil, our
dear friend and also colleague.
She is a licensed Marriage andFamily Therapist, licensed
mental health counselor with aprivate practice in Winter Park,
Florida, and an all around,fabulous human being, and we're
in for a real treat today,because even though it's a
difficult subject matter, it'sone that's really important to
(00:28):
discuss. Helen lost her husbandat an unexpectedly young age,
and has found a way to movethrough grief and live her best
life, and we really want you tohear about how she did that,
what she's been through, and thehopes that it will help those of
you who are dealing withsomething similar, and maybe a
(00:49):
friends and family going throughthat as well. So welcome, Helen.
I'm going to shut up now, and Iwant to turn over the floor to
you a little bit. It's
Helen Keeling-Neal (00:59):
good to be here. I think this is a really
important topic, no matter whatage you lose someone at. For me,
I was 42 my kids were four andsix. David was 10 years older
than me, and it was very quick.
It was very sudden. We'd knownsomething was going on. We
thought it was maybe to do withhis stomach, and had him checked
out at the gastroenterologistand things like that. And three
(01:21):
months later, he was in chronicliver failure, so he had liver
cancer, yes, and so we actually,from when we found that out, he
went into the hospital and nevercame out. He ended up passing
away in hospice, but it wasabout about two and a half
weeks, and then he was, what,yeah, wow. Very quick, very
(01:44):
shocking, very powerless placeto be. Yeah, super fast. Doing
this a long time ago. Clearly,I'm not 42 anymore, but Well,
you look at Judy. Oh, yeah,thank you.
Laura Bowman (02:00):
How many years ago was that at this client? 1009
Helen Keeling-Neal (02:04):
so it's come coming up on 15 Wow.
Laura Bowman (02:08):
So a 15 year journey of, I mean, take us
into, like, how you process thatjust initially? I mean,
obviously it's so unexpected.
Well, you
Helen Keeling-Neal (02:17):
don't, you don't process it initially. You
go into survival mode, orshutdown mode, or num mode, or
mum mode. I went into mum mode.
My kids were so little, theywere attached to him, and so
that's what I had to do. Thatkind of loss, and any loss,
especially when you have kids,it's like you're losing you're
not just losing your husband,but you're losing an income,
(02:39):
you're losing the guy who cutsthe lawn, you know, you're
losing BEDTIME STORY dad and theperson who grills in the family,
and the second set of eyes andall of this. So it's like this
loss across the board that youdon't even think about until it
happens.
Colette Fehr (02:58):
I'm just even listening to you. I've known you
all these years, and I did notknow the story of what happened,
or just how sudden it was, howyoung your children were, and
for this to all transpire withina period of about two weeks,
were you just in shock for along period of time? Or, I mean,
(03:21):
how do you even get through theday when this first occurs?
Helen Keeling-Neal (03:26):
Yeah, I this might sound some kind of harsh,
but I think after someone passesaway, or is in the process of a
sudden, tragic thing like this,there's like you go into the
business of death. It's like youhave to handle the business of
it, the logistics, the you know,for me as somebody who wanted to
(03:49):
really take care of my kids, andthe way the story went, we went
into the hospital, they told me,originally, 18 months, and then
they assessed them again. Theysaid probably about 12 months.
And then a couple days laterthey said, No, we're looking at
about six to nine months. Andthen they told me, he's good
about eight weeks. And then theysaid this was all in space for a
few days. He's probably goodabout seven days, and that's how
(04:12):
quickly that happens. So I hadto set in place, and I feel
grateful that I was able to dothis the things that we might
need. So I'd already went to NewHope for Children, grieving
family, because I knew I wasgoing to need that as a resource
for my kids. I was alreadyreaching out to family, because,
I mean family in town, thingslike that. So I went into
(04:34):
business mode, logistics mode.
You got the funeral, theservice, and you're dealing with
a lot of people who are superkind. And, you know, there's
jokes about the endless lasagnasand stuffed shells, and it's
true, but it's also delightful,and I got to feed some neighbors
with that, because there was somuch food and and so much care.
So it's not really, I think,until later in the quiet
(04:56):
moments. Are really hard toallow that the real grief starts
to process, and that can beyears later for people. You
know, I think about six monthslater, things got quieter.
People weren't calling as much.
(05:17):
That's when, you know, I wouldbe curled up on the floor
sobbing, and my kids just oh, itwas heartbreaking. Either the
older one, who was six, knewmuch my kids were really chewing
Dan, you know, and just grievedso loudly, and the younger one,
she didn't know she was grievingso she would get so upset. And
(05:40):
this was a four year old whodidn't have tantrums, you we,
you know, and hadn't said shewas around too you would check
the door in her room so hard shecracked the wall because she was
so upset that they didn't haveblueberry flavor Italian ice.
Now, we both know, we all know,wasn't the Italian a wasn't
(06:01):
Italian ice, and so having todeal with that on that's when
you put your own grief aside.
That's when you can't and makean income, and, you know, keep
the house tight and do thelaundry and keep their schedule
as normal as possible, bedtimesand story and and school and all
of that. It comes in pods, andit's completely non linear. And
(06:23):
we all, you know, we know thestages of of grief, and I think
you can have all of them once.
You can have one, and then canbe a big gap and and the things
to look out for are, you know,don't dive into substance use
and another relationship, yeah,really important.
Laura Bowman (06:41):
Did you have anyone to support you like does
does family come and stay withyou or rally next to you? Are
you like alone with these smallchildren for the bulk of this
journey?
Helen Keeling-Neal (06:54):
But first, I had a lot of support and, you
know, and I have to say that assomeone who is used to being the
supporter, I had to reallyadjust my mindset around that
and learn how to receive. AndI'm very big on working with my
clients, on on receiving andencouraging people to ask, and
(07:15):
when people say, What can I do?
Oh, I'm fine and good bespecific. And also it's
something that's important toknow is you don't know what you
need sometimes in the event ofthat. So having someone say,
Hey, I'm gonna bring you somefood. I'm gonna drop it off on
your doorstep. Don't worry, youcan freeze it is great. But as
(07:37):
far as support, I had an amazingcommunity where I lived, a lot
of really, really strongfriends. My mom flew in from
England, was here for a coupleof weeks, and my good friend
Molly came into town, andDavid's family came into town,
then everybody goes away after acouple of weeks. Yes, this is
what
Colette Fehr (07:57):
I hear people talk about, who my my really dear
friend, just lost her father,and obviously it's a different
situation. He was an older man,but they still were not prepared
for it at all. And a lot of whatyou're saying reminds me of what
she said. So I think thisconversation is important for
everyone who's lost anyone intheir life that you know, at
(08:21):
first you are, I love yourfriends, the business of death
that you have to function. Andso maybe you're not even in
shock yet, or you're certainlynot in the Stages of Grief yet,
because you there's just so muchto do, yeah, that has to be
accomplished. You only have theluxury of feeling your feelings.
(08:41):
And then it's not till, youknow, I've heard other people
and clients talk about this,that after somebody passes,
there's all these people aroundyou, and then people go back to
their normal lives. And that'swhen you're alone and you have
the space to sit with theenormity of what's happened, and
it begins to sink in, yeah? Soit makes a lot of sense. But I
(09:05):
think if you haven't beenthrough it, and I haven't been
through it, knock on wood withanyone so close to me, you know,
I can't imagine how hard thatmust be when it begins to sink
in, yeah. So what kind of thingswhen you're saying, Don't go to
substance abuse, don't getinvolved with someone else, and
I can see how tempting both ofthose things would be. What are
(09:27):
some of the things you did thathelped you cope when it began to
sink in and you started feelingyour feelings?
Helen Keeling-Neal (09:36):
Therapy.
Therapy is huge. EMDR, you know,really helpful. I try to live a
normal life with that kind ofloss. It just wakes you up into
this pentacrest. But it's like,what the fuck kind of
circumstance where everythingelse. Seems small in comparison.
(09:59):
So the things that might havebeen a big irritation before it
just goes away, because it'slike, well, nobody died today.
That's and honestly, definitelymantra, nobody died today, I'm
in recovery. So I went torecovery meetings, I would raise
my hand and say, I'm a highrisk. I'm a high risk. And, you
know, so that I could getthrough this, sober and be
(10:19):
present for my kids. Yeah,having close friends that you
can sit and cry with, that canhold that space for you and not
need to make you feel better,rescuing you from it. Yes, yes.
But there comes a stage where,like you want to, I wanted to be
able to do that right, to ventit out when it came up, but
(10:40):
Griff is like a sneaky benchbecause it blindsides you just
at the most inopportune moments.
And I remember I heard about 11months after David died, I went
on a date. Was a nice date, wentfor dinner, gave her a hug
goodbye, and had the wrongcologne on. The smell was the
(11:03):
wrong spot. I went home and Icried for three days. I just
just never think about thingslike that, what that's going to
be like? It's
Colette Fehr (11:12):
not your person.
And it all of a sudden thatgrief just comes surging up.
Helen Keeling-Neal (11:17):
Another thing I did, I went to grief.
Share, I don't know if you'veheard of grief share, no, what's
grief? Share? It is done througha church. And I'm not a
particularly churchy person, butI met this lovely lady who was
an older lady, and she said, whydon't you come to grief share,
and it's to help process grief,and it's, it's non
denominational. And that wasreally helpful, because
everybody in the room had lostsomeone, and that was really
(11:40):
good. And then you hoped forgrieving children and families,
because the parents would havetheir own session while the kids
had their sessions.
Colette Fehr (11:49):
Oh, that's amazing. That's great. So you
really recommend, and it makessense to me as a therapist like
this shared experience of beingwith others who have are going
through something similar, thatthat's an important component, I
would think of healing huge.
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:07):
Yeah,
Laura Bowman (12:08):
I have a client doing that right now. She lost
her dad unexpectedly, and it's ahuge help. Let me, let me ask
you, Ellen, I'm assuming, likehaving young kids, were you
working at the time, or were youlike a stay at home mom.
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:22):
So I was working part time, just doing
some business consulting andteaching mommy and me art
classes, consulting for an artstudio called my art studio. And
we've been on through a lot ofdifficulties. Because it was the
recession, David had lost hisjob. There was a lot of stuff
going on, so we're in a veryfinancially difficult position,
(12:42):
and so I actually had to get afull time job immediately after
he passed away. So it was aboutthree weeks later I was working
full time.
Laura Bowman (12:52):
What did you decide to do? Like, what? What
did you find in terms of fulltime work in that moment?
Helen Keeling-Neal (12:58):
Yes, well, I'm very grateful, because the
art studio had wanted me to comeon as director previously, but
I'd said no, so I went on fulltime as the director for my art
studio and did a had a full timeafter school program and field
trips and things like that. Thatwas a real gift for me, because
I was able to leave, pick up mykids and bring them back to the
(13:19):
studio, because my priority wasmy kids. Yeah, but I had to make
a decision, and this is adecision which is a difficult
one to make. I had to make adecision to not make a very high
income, because I needed to bereally present for my kids. I
could have gone into, you know,three plus figure position, but
(13:42):
shows less because of the timeand what and flexibility I
needed, and that was a reallydifficult thing, and it meant I,
you know, I lost the house thatI lived in, and had to move into
a smaller house, but I did thaton purpose, because I needed to
not have that be sooverwhelming, the overhead be so
(14:03):
overwhelming that I would justhave nothing for my kids and
would be working like 56 hours aweek, right?
Colette Fehr (14:11):
You needed to prioritize your time with the
kids and balance that in thedecision. And I wonder Helen,
you know, as we're all threetherapists here, and for our
listeners who may be grievingthe loss of someone or surely
it's something we're all goingto face at some point, I have
seen many clients over the yearsbefore I decided to only do
(14:32):
couples therapy in particular,who would move through the
stages of grief and come to someresolution, and Then those who
would, you know, not resolution,but acceptance, and then those
who would really get stuck inthe grief and not progress. And
one of the things I've noticed,and I'm curious your take on
this, is that many of those whowere able to successfully move
(14:55):
through the grief and come toacceptance created a narrative.
Narrative of what happened thatthey could live with. And
doesn't mean that it minimizedthe pain, but they found a way
to make sense of and come toterms with it. Did you have to
develop some because I wouldimagine that you're you know,
(15:17):
how does this happen to me? Howcould this have happened,
especially when it's a tragic,untimely thing. Did you have to
come up with some kind ofnarrative that explained why
this occurred, or to help youlive with the unthinkable?
Helen Keeling-Neal (15:32):
I really didn't, but I'm a little
different in that way.
Personally, I'm very much a sortof living in alignment kind of
person.
Colette Fehr (15:40):
Can you explain what that means too? Can you
explain what living in alignmentmeans? So,
Helen Keeling-Neal (15:45):
you know, I don't go to why did this happen?
I go to more. This sucks thatthis happened. This isn't fair
that it happened, but it didhappen. What do I need to do now
to move through it? Did
Laura Bowman (15:58):
you feel sorry for yourself, though? Was there,
like, was there strong feelingsof, like, Why me?
Helen Keeling-Neal (16:04):
I think the feelings didn't come in the
thought of, why me. They came incomplete overwhelm, yeah, like,
it's not fair to be sooverwhelmed. Like, that's not
okay. I have a lot of things Iwent through early childhood and
things like that too, that madelife very difficult for me. So I
(16:25):
think I was like, What the Thisis not fucking fair. Yeah. So
it's more anger,
Unknown (16:30):
really too much for one person's life, but then
Helen Keeling-Neal (16:34):
on the other side, but it is what it is, and
therefore what am I going to do,and how am I going to handle it,
and how I'm going to movethrough it. No one's talked to
that getting stuck. I'm prettyconvinced that getting stuck
piece is related to compoundgrief and attachment. More about
that? Yes. Pink set, theneurologist, he talks about the
seven affect networks in one ofthem is panic slash grief, which
(16:59):
is the abandonment, theloneliness and those kind of
elements. And so what I see, andcertainly with some of my
experiences, if you've lostsomeone significant earlier, or
if you have an attachment woundfor an unavailable or non
present, or non emotionallypresent caregiver, you can get
(17:21):
stuck in an aspect of yourselfthat is looping the grief. That
seems like it's about this loss,but it isn't. It's an earlier
attachment wound or an earlierloss.
Laura Bowman (17:32):
That makes sense.
Colette Fehr (17:33):
Yeah, that was going to say the same thing.
That makes perfect sense. Andwhen I think about the clients
who come to mind, that makessense with their attachment
history as well. So in the caseof the point you're bringing up
for somebody listening, youknow, this is where going to
therapy is really going to beimportant, really
Helen Keeling-Neal (17:52):
important, right? Because it's hard to pass
apart, because I had some ofthat too, because I lost my dad
when I was younger, and it was alot of stuff, right? So you it
feels so huge, it feelsinsurmountable. And so a good
therapist can help you with someEMDR, or you have a tea or
whatever, you know, modalitythat works for you to really
(18:16):
kind of pull that apart, so youcan process this and then
process this and process this.
It
Laura Bowman (18:21):
sounds like you did a lot of work prior though
Colette Fehr (18:24):
I did. You've mentioned EMDR twice, and now
art and our listeners, most ofthem probably don't know what
those things are. Can you justgive a very top line
explanation? Because somebodygoing through grief may want to
look for a therapist in theirarea who does these modalities
that are so helpful. So do youwant to just share a little more
about what those are and whythey're so effective?
Helen Keeling-Neal (18:46):
Yes. EMDR stands for eye movement
desensitization, reprocessing,and so it's a way using
bilateral movements, whetherit's tapping or tracking with
your eyes, to process the traumain connection with the grief and
loss. So a lot of times the it'snot pretty, the end of life can
be not pretty and very traumaticto see. Yeah. So the way that
(19:10):
you do that is you can walkthrough releasing the stored
trauma around the event andaround loss and a RT. I'm not
trained in, but I know otherpeople who are trained in it
accelerated resolution, theory,I think, and therapy, therapy,
thank you. And that's a similarprocess too. Yes,
Colette Fehr (19:30):
thank you. Helen and I actually did, the
practitioner in my office istrained in art, and I did two
sessions with her, not on well,on another kind of grief, a
relationship grief, and it'sactually very similar to EMDR,
which you and I are both trainedin. And these are, I do think
it's worth saying, you know, ifyou're going through something
(19:54):
like this, the loss of a lovedone, grief and trauma around
that EMDR, or. Therapy can helpyou move through it much more
quickly and deeply, because whenwe talk things through, it's so
valuable, but it's really moreof a cognitive process. And when
you get beneath all of that,into the body more deeply and
(20:17):
into those stored memories thatare less conscious, it helps
you, like you said, release someof that. So I think we all
probably would suggest to anylisteners that those therapies
are worth looking into. And ourwebsite insights from the
couch.org, we will include linksto those therapies so you can
(20:38):
look into that more thoroughly,as well as look for a therapist
trained in those modalities inyour area. I think that's really
useful advice for people.
Laura Bowman (20:47):
What was the beginning of the shifting out of
this, where you began to feellike, I can raise these kids,
I've got this I'm healing like,what was the what was the
journey through? I'm sure it'sstill going on, but
Helen Keeling-Neal (21:03):
in some way, because every developmental
milestone, every mile marker,for them and for me as an
absence, right? So if it'sstarting first grade or second
grade, or graduating high schoolor going to college, so it's
always going to be a lost dance.
But you know, the Queen Mother,she had this great saying, and
(21:24):
it was, it doesn't get better. Iget better at it. And she's
talking about grief. I love thatI've seen often the image of a
jar, and it's packed full ofstones, and that's grief. And
then a next image will be it's abigger jar, and so the palace
stones look smaller. Time reallydoes heal. And if one's mindful
(21:51):
of processing the emotions asthey come up, allowing them to
really come out. Often, we do aneven deeper healing when you get
into another relationship. Youcan't really do that loss if
it's a significant other, untilyou're in a love relationship
(22:15):
that is really connected,because it just kicks up a whole
tennis shirt, a whole bunch ofstuff. Have you
Laura Bowman (22:28):
had that experience? You had that
experience? Tell us about that.
Helen Keeling-Neal (22:32):
Yeah, I guess it was about maybe 18
months. I had a relationshipthat lasted about a year and
three months, but I was neverreally fully in love with him,
but in that relationship, I didsome grieving, but then I didn't
really have a very long termrelationship for a number of
(22:53):
years after that, for a longtime, two and a half years ago,
I met someone, and I fell inlove, and it was like fully hit
terrifying, because the thoughtwas, What if I lose them again?
Yeah, so all this stuff came up.
And two and a half years is notthat long in a relationship, you
(23:14):
know? And then here's this pieceof now, bringing him into my
family, with my kids and allthat components, and it's really
easy in some ways, to just stayout of a relationship. I didn't
want to bring a lot of people inand out. I didn't want to do a
lot of dating because of mykids, you know, so but then I
(23:34):
went a little bit the other way.
Colette Fehr (23:39):
Have you found that being in a committed
relationship now, despite thefear that it's brought a lot of
healing,
Laura Bowman (23:47):
it's great. Oh, good. I'm so glad it's good. But
is it, does it still feel sowildly vulnerable? Or have you
worked through that?
Helen Keeling-Neal (23:56):
I've worked through that? Yes, so And Helen,
maybe
Colette Fehr (23:59):
there isn't one, but I'm just curious what you
would say to somebody goingthrough this, like, do you see
your own personal opinion kindof an ideal time to circulate? I
mean, obviously everyone's gotto tune into themselves and when
they feel ready. But are thereany like, do's and don'ts around
getting into otherrelationships?
Helen Keeling-Neal (24:18):
Well, I don't think there is an ideal
time. If you take somebody whois 70 years old and has maybe
been with their partner for 50years, and then that person may
not even be able to be without arelationship, because that has
been what has fed them for solong. So you know, I'd say a lot
(24:42):
of seniors will go more quicklyinto a relationship. And, you
know, go for it. I think thethings to look out for is, if
you have children, you need tobe cautious, because they've
already lost someone, yes, andthey don't expect them to attach
to this new person. Don't, youknow, if. You fall in love with
this person does not mean thatthey're going to and so there's
(25:04):
a lot to navigate there. Youreally need to be mindful about
that, and, and, and so that'swhy don't do it so quickly. Be
mindful of not using it to avoidthe grief
Laura Bowman (25:16):
your kids are like adults by the time you fall in
love, right? Yes, yeah. How didthey receive your partner? Were
they happy for you by thatpoint, like, come on, Mommy, you
need to do this. Yes.
Helen Keeling-Neal (25:27):
So yeah. So it was about 10 months after
David died, my eldest. It was soheartbreaking, and she goes,
lovely. What am I gonna get? Anew daddy? Heartbreaking. She
couldn't conceptualize nothaving a new death, not having a
dad. Could not, could not justlike it was so heartbreaking. Oh
(25:51):
my god, yeah, you have to beaware of the wound this creates
for children, and especiallyzero to six, as far as
attachment goes, you know,there's a big old like, it's,
it's a wood, but it's a wound,no matter what. But they do
great, yes, that's awesome, and
Colette Fehr (26:08):
they're happy.
That's amazing.
Laura Bowman (26:10):
I love that. Oh yeah, we skipped over, like, the
whole part of this story whereyou build this career. So that
happens,
Colette Fehr (26:18):
yes, and become a therapist, yeah, yeah,
Helen Keeling-Neal (26:22):
you really invested in you. I did and, but,
you know, therewere a lot of reasons that I
went into third grads thoughtabout it. I remember going to a
Rollins information session witha two year old and a newborn
into, you know, like, and I'mthinking, Oh, no, I can't do
this at this time. But afterDavid died, I thought to myself,
life needs to be done in a waythat I want to do it. And what
(26:46):
do I want to do? It has beenI've thought about it for a long
time, and I thought, well, whatam I waiting for? Why am I
waiting this? You just literallydon't know if you're going to be
here tomorrow or if anybody elseis going to be here tomorrow.
Why would I wait to move towardssomething? So I did. I applied,
and I got my masters and becamelicensed. And another reason I
(27:08):
did. I had a very specific goal.
I was going to go right intoprivate practice. I needed to be
able to manage my own work hoursso that I could set my own
schedule, so I could beavailable for my kids. And
everybody would say, you'regoing to have to work evenings.
I said, I'm not workingevenings. And I never did. I
never worked evenings right fromthe get go. Good for you. I
(27:29):
wanted to keep my kids apriority with that. It wasn't
anybody else to be with them,wasn't another family member,
and it wasn't in the budget tohave babysitters. So you had
Colette Fehr (27:38):
to get right into action, and you did. You didn't
have the luxury of just, youknow, collapsing and hiding in
your bedroom. You had to be anactive mother. You had to be an
earner. There were really, therewas really no option but to keep
waking up every day and puttingone foot in front of the other,
(27:59):
yeah,
Helen Keeling-Neal (27:59):
because I would collapse and hide in the
bedroom or in collapse. Butyeah, you have to keep going.
Laura Bowman (28:07):
You had to function. And let's just say how
normal that is, the collapsingin the bedroom. I mean, I still
hear that with women who havegone through some terrible
divorces that were not there,like just the at night,
collapsing and feeling hopelessand despair. And that's like
part of the process seems reallyimportant to get that out, to
(28:27):
have, like,
Helen Keeling-Neal (28:28):
to be sobbing so hard that your pillow
is wet. Need to do that. Reallyimportant. If we store it, we
just gonna Oh, and it just turnsinto other stones.
Colette Fehr (28:39):
Oh my gosh. I agree so much. And actually this
is probably the perfect seguewhat you're saying right now as
we wrap up the episode, to givesome tips and takeaways for
people going through grief ofany kind, you know, one that I
hear you saying now isabsolutely feel your feelings.
Give yourself permission, havethat time to cry and sub you
(29:01):
have to work through theemotions, and of course, you've
also said going to therapy andmaybe seeking something deeper
than just talk therapy even.
What else would you say are yourtop tips for somebody going
through grief?
Helen Keeling-Neal (29:19):
Don't judge yourself in it. Stay away from
that. I don't know why I'mcrying or it's been six months.
I should be feeling better ordoing better. Let yourself be
angry. I think that's a reallybig part that we don't always
allow. Let yourself be angry atthe person for dying. Let
yourself be angry at God. Letyourself be angry at the world
(29:40):
or the disease, or the personwho created it, or the car,
really let yourself be in thatthat's beautiful and mindful of
guilt. Make sure to work throughany guilt, the times that I
nagged him, or the times that Iwas like, why aren't you home?
And. I working so much,reflecting on and wishing I'd
(30:03):
been kinder or more patient inthings. So really turn a lens of
kindness on yourself andunderstanding, and reach out to
the people who can sit with bigfeelings, your friends and your
family. And the other thing is,activate your play network, do
something fun. The Oh, I loveride a roller coaster. Go do
(30:25):
whatever is fun for you thatused to be funny you think may
not even be fun. Try and pushyourself to do it because it
will help. Oh, that's a greatsuggestion,
Colette Fehr (30:35):
because I think sometimes people feel like they
shouldn't be having any fun, orshouldn't be doing anything
good. And it's so important tofeel your big and sad and hurt,
hurtful feelings, but also to golive and not lift yourself up
for that. And then, of course,you also said earlier to some
kind of support group if youhave children, perhaps they need
(30:57):
that too, if you've lost aspouse, but also for you, if you
can find a local group at achurch or someplace else with
other people going throughgrief, that that will really,
really help. I mean, these aresuch powerful, important
takeaways. Anything else thatyou want to add? I certainly
think this is enough, but I wantto give you a chance. If there's
(31:19):
anything else that you feel likeis really important.
Helen Keeling-Neal (31:23):
I want to add something for the people who
are supporting the person who'slost someone. One of the things
you know a lot of times, aftersome period of time, it was
almost like my identity, mycommunity, became the person
whose husband had died, and mykids, it was the kids whose dad
had died, and sometimes you justwant to feel normal. So the pity
(31:46):
eyes, whenever someone would seeme, some people go right into
the pity eyes. And I know thatthat's empathy and and know that
that's care. But sometimes youjust want to be a person who is
going to work or doing thelaundry or making a dinner, and
so take your cues from theperson who's grieving.
Laura Bowman (32:09):
It's good advice.
Colette Fehr (32:10):
That's great advice that's helpful for me to
hear just as a person, because Ithink I'm one of those people
who probably has the pity eyesand is trying to exercise, but
sometimes you don't, you don'twant to be living in the space
of it every minute of every day.
Great. Yes, so helpful, andwe're so happy to have had you.
And we're going to give links toEMDR therapy, art therapy, and
(32:34):
all that good stuff, so that ifyou're going through this, or,
you know someone who is you havesolutions that can help. And I
love Helen, how you said, myfavorite thing, it doesn't get
better. I get better at it. Imean, I think that's just a
beautiful synopsis of the crazyand up and down process of
(32:58):
grief, right? You've got to giveit time.
Laura Bowman (33:04):
And so glad to hear that you're so happy and
your family is good, that'sawesome. You're
Colette Fehr (33:09):
in love and you're in love. Oh God, yay for
Laura Bowman (33:12):
love. We love love,
Colette Fehr (33:16):
all right. Well, thank you so much everyone for
listening, and don't forget tocheck out resources from this
episode and more at insightsfrom the couch.org. Thank you,
Helen, and we'll see you nexttime.
Laura Bowman (33:30):
Take care, everybody.
Unknown (33:36):
You.
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