Hey friends! We cannot believe we’re saying this—but it's officially been ONE YEAR since we launched Insights from the Couch! Not only are we celebrating our podcast anniversary, but this is also our 50th episode, and we're taking a moment to reflect on the wild, messy, beautiful journey that brought us here. Spoiler alert: we had no idea what we were doing when we started, but we’re proof that big things can happen when you leap before you feel "ready."
In this episode, we open up about the highs, the facepalms, and everything in between—from our tech-challenged beginnings to what we’ve learned about confidence, commitment, distress tolerance, and doing the damn thing scared. Whether you're dreaming of launching your own podcast, writing a book, or finally going after that idea you've been sitting on, we promise this episode will light a fire under you. And yes, we get vulnerable about our own fears and insecurities—because that’s just how we roll.
Episode Highlights:
[0:00] - Celebrating our one-year podcast anniversary and our 50th episode.
[1:28] - The unexpected start and original podcast name that didn’t make the cut.
[3:06] - Why we felt called to fill a gap for midlife women’s voices.
[4:39] - Our “just go for it” launch story—no formal course, all in on action.
[6:07] - Why starting before you’re ready is the key to unlocking clarity.
[7:50] - A powerful discussion on perfectionism and how it holds women back.
[9:35] - The underrated magic of willingness and how it drives everything.
[13:55] - Colette’s wild Cornell summer and learning through discomfort.
[16:00] - What distress tolerance really looks like in everyday life.
[18:44] - Building confidence through action, not waiting to “feel ready”.
[24:43] - Laura’s real talk on growing your work capacity and attention.
[26:58] - Colette’s TEDx talk moment and learning to survive embarrassment.
[31:48] - Riding the cringe: how to show up, even when it’s uncomfortable.
[33:07] - Behind the scenes of our partnership and working styles.
[34:35] - Announcing our new Midlife Master Class group (coming soon!).
[36:45] - The Top 5 Regrets of the Dying and why we’re not waiting anymore.
[38:00] - A call for listener questions—let us know how we can support YOU.
Resources:
- Visit our website: https://www.insightsfromthecouch.org
- Submit your questions or topics for future episodes: info@insightsfromthecouch.org
We’re beyond grateful to each of you who has listened, shared, or supported Insights from the Couch over this past year. You’ve helped us build something truly special, and we can’t wait to grow even more together. If you loved this episode, please take a moment to rate, follow, share, and review—it means the world to us.
See you next week!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:00):
John, welcome back to insights from the couch,
(00:04):
mental health at midlife. Todayis a very special episode
because we're celebrating theone year anniversary of
podcasting. In fact, the literalone year anniversary is
tomorrow. We started on June 5,2024 with our podcast launch
party. In a way, it feels likefour minutes ago, and in another
(00:26):
way, it feels like an attorney.
I can't believe we've ever notbeen doing this. So we've got
some exciting things to sharewith you today in terms of how
to bring your big ideas to lifewithout having it all figured
out. So you're going to want tolisten to this one until the
end. We're going to share somestories, but really geared
toward helping you get your bigidea off the ground. Yeah, I
(00:48):
cannot
Laura Bowman (00:51):
even believe it's been a year. I mean, we've been
doing this for a year, like 50episodes,
Colette Fehr (00:58):
yes, and that's the thing, it's not just the one
year anniversary, it's our 50thepisode. It coincided
beautifully. And what's crazythat I think we're going to dive
into a little is that you Icouldn't, I hadn't remembered
this at first, but you werelike, you know, we should really
do a podcast, and we ran withit. We did not know what the
(01:21):
fuck we were doing in any way,shape or form, right? We're both
technologically let me bediplomatic beyond
Laura Bowman (01:29):
behind the curve.
That seems so good for that,like I feel like I'm learning my
way around my computer in ways Inever would have
Colette Fehr (01:41):
well, except for the fact that I still have to
prop up my microphone for everyepisode. Yeah, we've, we've come
a long way. But I think the coolthing is that, you know, I
remember I was writing myproposal for my book, for a non
fiction book, you have to writea lengthy proposal with a
business plan and a summary ofevery chapter. And you know,
(02:03):
mine was 114 pages, so it's,like, basically almost as long.
It's a novella. And now I canremember exactly where I was
sitting when you said we shoulddo this. And I was like, Oh, my
God, we should, yeah, yeah, weshould, yeah. Why aren't we?
It's
Laura Bowman (02:19):
because I listened to like, six podcasts a day,
yeah. And at some point you'relike, well, I could do this. We
could do this. And then we'relike, these people who think
that our conversations aresomehow exceptional, because
they are, but we're like, youknow, it's like, when you think
your kids are the cutest, wethink our conversations are the
best. At
Colette Fehr (02:40):
least we're aware we may be delusional. And you
know what success is often dueto a big fat pie of delusion,
like believing in yourself andyour greatness is not a bad
thing.
Laura Bowman (02:53):
Who that one's still hard for me, like I know I
I have a hard time with thedelusional confidence, but this,
but even just this has been sucha great lesson in practicing
which I can get behind and
Colette Fehr (03:06):
commitment. And that's a big part of it, is
that, once we decided, and infact, it seems so long ago now,
I wanted to call it. What did Iwant to call it that? Oh,
friends with therapists, like ariff of friends with benefits
that I still love that title,but we found out somebody else
(03:26):
had started a podcast with thattitle, and even though they
didn't follow through, thatcould bring up legal concerns.
So it was now, it seems sonatural, and we're so in a flow
of doing this, but it wasdaunting at first, even though
it was a clear yes from both ofus, and I think there was a void
(03:47):
in the space out there of areally strong voice for women at
midlife that's empowered andholistic and isn't just mental
health, but is All of the thingsmental health touches in our
lives. You know, our successes,our well being, our physical
health, our friendships, ourrelationships. So we really
(04:11):
wanted to break because that'sall we talk about. Really, we
don't ever talk about, like,small talk, bullshit, ever,
right?
Laura Bowman (04:19):
Yeah, pursuit of happiness is all we ever talk
about,
Colette Fehr (04:23):
yes, and overcoming fear and existential
issues. So it seemed, it didseem worthy to bring these
conversations and start a builda community for women to have
these conversations. Yeah.
Laura Bowman (04:40):
Do you remember when we first started and we
were like, Okay, let's meet nextweekend and we're going to buy a
course that's going to teach ushow to do a podcast. Yes?
Colette Fehr (04:50):
And we never did it,
Laura Bowman (04:52):
no. And we were like, so overwhelmed by, like,
the equipment we'd need to own,and we had no idea, like, how.
We were going to make it work?
Were we going to be in the sameroom together? Like, what
platform? What did we need?
Headphones? Like we were soconfused. You know,
Colette Fehr (05:09):
when you say all of that, I think about how much
we have figured out. And I thinkthis is one of the big takeaways
we want to give to you guystoday, is that as therapists and
as women who started a podcastand didn't know what we were
doing or even if it would goanywhere, we didn't anticipate
(05:30):
being a top 5% podcast. Youknow, we had no idea if it would
be like our mothers and like ourdaughters listen. I don't think
my mother listens. Mine, doesmine. That's hilarious. But, you
know, we weren't anticipatingthat it would be. We weren't
thinking it wouldn't be. We justdidn't know, but we committed to
(05:51):
doing it anyway. And I think thebig key is that we started
before we felt ready. Yes,
Laura Bowman (05:58):
yes. We started like, scared. We started, like,
just jumping in and saying,like, it's going to be whatever
it is, right? And we're
Colette Fehr (06:07):
doing it no matter what, yes, and we're going to
bring our authentic selves tothe process, and the people who
with whom it resonates willlisten. And, you know,
hopefully, we'll find ouraudience. And of course, that's
happened, but there was noguarantee. And I think it could
have been easy to keep saying,Okay, let's spend, you know, a
(06:31):
year ideating. You can reallyget stuck in that phase of
thrashing with your ideas andtelling yourself, okay, as soon
as this milestone happens, thenI'll start. And what we want to
say today is, don't wait forthat. The best way to get
clarity and to learn and tofigure it out is to start really
(06:54):
messy, start scared, fuck up alot. That is the only way.
Laura Bowman (07:01):
Yeah, there's the line of, like, if something is
worth doing, it's worth doingbadly, which, like most women
are like, No, that's not theline. It's like, if something's
worth doing, it's worth doingreally well. And I think this is
the thing I see in women morethan I see certainly, in men.
And I don't mean to make it agender thing, but it is, is that
women are so about getting itright. Like, I'm in this, like,
(07:23):
health coaching thing right now,and every woman's like, yeah,
I've I've never coached anyone,but I'm gonna get like, multiple
degrees first. Like, I'm gonnaget multiple certificates before
I feel ready to do the thing.
And they never get around todoing the thing, because
confidence is made in the doing.
(07:43):
Yep, it is. It's not somethingyou can get beforehand and then
do the thing,
Colette Fehr (07:50):
right? You're here. So, right? I think this is
why, you know, 60% of women haveimposter syndrome. Very few men
have imposter syndrome. Societylook at even the way men sit,
right? I mean, I realize theyhave, like, a big organ and
balls dangling there, and that'spart of it, but part of it also
is like, I get to take up space,right? They man spread, and they
(08:15):
just, like, open their legs, andthey feel permit where I'm
always sitting. Like, yes,shrunken your legs have to be
clear. It's like the demurething. And I'm not really demure
at all, but it's justinteresting the way we are
cultivated and raised to doubtourselves, to be humble to the
(08:38):
point of self flagellation.
Yeah. So it is a hard sell, andI guess you don't really have to
feel confident. I always saythis, you just have to be
willing. You have to be willingto take action without
confidence. And you could arguethat's what courage is, right
taking a leap, it's easy to saythese things and what sound
(09:00):
like, social media, sound bites,but it's also easy to endorse
them intellectually orphilosophically, but when it
comes to the nitty gritty daytoday, if there's something out
there that you want even alittle bit and you're not sure
you can do it, or you're notsure where it will go, that's
okay, but it's worth exploringand taking some small action to
(09:22):
dabble in it, test the waters,you know, and be willing to be
bad at it, like you said, Yeah,because that's willingness.
Laura Bowman (09:35):
Willingness is like, such an underrated
attribute. I was actuallywriting my daughter her
graduation letter, because shegraduated from college a weekend
ago, and the one thing that Isee with like my daughter is
that she has always had suchprofound willingness like to try
out for teams when there was noguarantee she'd make it to show
(09:58):
up for like outward. Round tripswhen she had, like, she was
being dropped in, like,Yosemite, like, you know, with a
shovel to, like, poop in theground, like, and she was just
willing to do it. And she'swilling to, like, apply for
jobs. And I'm like, I can't, youcan't teach people that. So,
like, it's like being practicewillingness to just be somewhere
(10:23):
and to start, yeah, is, is like,it's like, it's halfway, it's
even beyond the start.
Colette Fehr (10:30):
It's probably the biggest part of the battle. And
I'm thinking about it as you saythis, because I see some of that
in my kids too. But I do thinkyou can teach willingness. I
think you can create, you cancondition the muscle. I don't
even think it's about teaching.
I think it's just about doing.
Because when I look back onmyself and my younger years, I
(10:51):
didn't have a lot of willingnessnow, I took big risks in certain
areas. That's so hard for me tobelieve. Well, I think I did in
certain capacities, like I wouldapply for jobs. I would throw
myself into experiences where Ididn't know anyone. You know, I
did a lot of things. Like I wentto camps in another country
(11:12):
where I didn't know a singleperson. You know, I did that
summer program at Cornell, andmy roommate was an inmate who
had been, like, released fromjuvie. Yeah, I never told you
this. No so real fast I did.
It's kind of interesting,especially when you realize it
comes down to cigarettes. So Iapplied for this summer program
(11:33):
at Cornell University because Iwanted to be a veterinarian. Now
I wanted to be a veterinarian,because I love animals, but the
fact that I can't even look at asliver of blood, literally
without wanting to vomit, didnot bode well for a career in
medicine. So in the morning, itwas very cool, because they had
(11:54):
a huge veterinary medicine theyhave one of the top veterinary
schools in the country. Yeah,they had a program for
architecture, they had a programfor engineering, and I think it
was like international politicsor something. And there were
about 700 high school studentsfrom around the country, and
even some international wholived in this set of dorms on
one part of Cornell's campus.
(12:18):
And we were there for like,eight weeks or something, and it
was the summer between either mysophomore and junior, junior and
senior year of college of highschool. And so in the morning,
you could take two classes thatwere would go toward your
college degree. I took creativewriting and theater, and then in
the afternoon, I spent from oneto five o'clock every day during
(12:40):
the week at the vet school,mostly doing necropsies animal
autopsies. Sounds so fun, yeah,and I would come out in like a
hazmat suit, looking like Carriecovered in blood, like I'll
never forget, the horse'sesophagus bouncing out of its
throat when they slit it like ahuge vacuum cleaner. And I was
like, my dad kept saying, oh,you know, my dad's a doctor. You
(13:03):
get used to the bloodeventually. I'm like, I don't
know. Basically, what I learnedis, I shouldn't be anyone's
doctor, right? Like, that wasthe wrong even, like a rat,
okay, yeah, so. But I loved thecreative writing and I loved the
theater. So anyway, when you'refilling out the application 700
(13:24):
students, keep this in mind,there's a place, because this is
in, I don't know, 1989 1990 thatsays, Do you smoke cigarettes?
Well, at the time, I was a diehard smoker. So were many
people, but most people didn'thave the balls to say they
wanted a smoking room on theirapplication that parents might
(13:45):
see. I wrote smoking, and Iremember arguing with my parents
about it, and I was like,whatever. I'm a smoker, and you
can't stop me, and you have toaccept it. Well, only like eight
people out of 700 checkedsmoking, including an inmate.
Yes, so this girl inmate is alittle harsh, but there was a
program through Boys Town, whichis a wonderful organization,
(14:08):
where kids that had gotten insome trouble and had been in
like some kind of juvenilefacility could be rehabilitated
and given a chance to haveaccess to this wonderful school.
So it was great. My roommate wassuper sweet, but she made
friends with all these people indowntown Ithaca who were super
(14:30):
sketchy, and they wereconstantly in my room doing
drugs and like it was insane. SoI was like, scared half the time
in my room.
Laura Bowman (14:44):
That was, like, even beyond, like, your comfort
level, right, right,
Colette Fehr (14:48):
right. But I ended up being friends with all of
them. It was super chill. Butlooking back, I'm like, only I
would end up at Cornell, atthis, like, prestigious program
with this Bucha. Stuff for amate, yeah, so I
Unknown (15:03):
put my cigarettes
Colette Fehr (15:04):
right because of cigarettes. So anyway, you know,
those are the kind of risks Itook. But the point that I'm
going to make here is that thoserisks weren't really out of my
comfort zone. I've always beenadventurous, and when it comes
to people, risks that I wasuncomfortable with, I didn't
take until later in life, and Ithink that's the big thing. You
(15:25):
and I talk about this a lot. Itcomes down to distress
tolerance.
Laura Bowman (15:30):
More about that. I want to know where you're going
with this, because I have awhole relationship with this
that, I mean, I think I'm alittle unlike you, and much more
inhibited. And it's been like, Ithink starting things and taking
risks is like doing a box jumpfor me, or like, standing at the
deep end of the swimming poolbeing like, I'm gonna jump in.
(15:51):
I'm gonna jump in. One day, I'mgonna jump in and like, I like,
really overthink things. So tellme what you're thinking about
distress tolerance.
Colette Fehr (16:00):
So I'm really glad to hear you say that I'm not
sure I know what a box jump is.
So you know where you'restanding
Laura Bowman (16:05):
there, and you, like, have to, like, jump on the
box, and you're not sure you'regonna do it without, like,
busting your
Colette Fehr (16:10):
knees. Now I know why. I don't know what a box
jump is. Okay, you're
Laura Bowman (16:14):
not sure you're gonna get it. And you're like, I
think I'm gonna get it. And,yeah, it's a little scary. No,
Unknown (16:20):
that's a lot of my life is a box jump, yeah,
Colette Fehr (16:23):
either jumping up or diving into the pool. So I
think that I'm gonna jump, I'mgonna jump, I'm gonna jump. And
overthinking. I think that'swhere a lot of us get stuck. And
I'd be lying if I said thatdidn't happen to me too. There
wasn't fear, there wasn't doubt.
There was an overthinking. Infact, on this trip to Italy,
having some space, I could feelcertain doubts creeping in about
(16:47):
all the things I'm doing and thenegative, fearful ideation, the
narration was like, what if youmess up like you're climbing and
climbing and climbing, andyou're feeling more confident.
But look how high you'veclimbed, and now the fall could
really hurt. And what are younot real, like you're not scared
(17:10):
enough, almost like it'sdangerous to feel safe. It's
Laura Bowman (17:18):
funny how that like creeps up as soon as you
slow down and like, settle intoyour like, yeah, motion. Staying
in motion is sometimes like, abenevolent thing, totally.
Colette Fehr (17:29):
But the way I talked back to it, which I think
is key and builds distresstolerance, is to say, Okay, it's
normal to have fear. It's normalto have doubt it's okay. You
know, I am taking on a lot, andyou then I redirect myself like
I notice the thought. I don'tfight the thought away, but I
(17:50):
don't lean into the thought. Iredirect myself into I trust
myself to like what's valuable.
I get curious about what'svaluable about that message. And
I think what's valuable is tosay, you know, I move so fast
and everything I do so I do makea lot more mistakes than some
people, but I also get a lotmore shit done. So I think part
(18:13):
of distress tolerance too isbeing willing to make mistakes.
And what's valuable about themessage, like, oh, you should be
scared to me is to say, okay,what can I learn from this part
of me that's telling me afearful story? Okay, maybe I
need to slow down a little insome respects. Maybe I need to
think some things through alittle more thoroughly. Like,
(18:36):
it's great to do the box jumpand the dive into the pool, but
sometimes we do need to slowdown and think a little
Laura Bowman (18:45):
shit. We're so opposite on this, yeah, like,
you, you have to, like, sort oflike, bring yourself down, or
say, like, maybe we need to becautious or think through this.
That's my default Mac, andthat's my default mode. I need
more activation energy. Like, Ineed the kind of thing that,
like, pushes you up on the box,or, like, the thing that compels
(19:08):
you into the water. And I've hada, like, a really rough time
facing those things. Mainly, Ithink, just to be totally
honest, my life has been prettycomfortable, yeah, and I see
this a lot in clients, and Iknow we've talked about it a
lot, here is that if, if you'recomfortable, it's it's really
(19:30):
hard to get the necessaryactivation energy to confront
something, because it's like,you don't have to do anything.
And it's like, why would yourisk feeling silly or
embarrassed or putting yourselfout there, or trying something,
if like, or even like, you know,some of these things that I've
done in the last couple of yearsthat I don't think are gonna I
(19:51):
just kind of did themreactively, like I got a real
estate license and I got amortgage broker's license,
because my that's what myhusband does, and I did it kind
of. Help him. But there wereyears Colette that I sat around
going, I could probably get areal estate license. And then
I'd go, I don't know. I don'tknow if I'm really cut out for
real estate. I'm probably, Imean, I could do real estate if
(20:14):
that's what I wanted to do. Idon't really want to do real
estate, right? That's not thepoint. The point is I would sit
and tell myself there's, oh,that test is probably hard.
There's probably things on thattest that I wouldn't be good at,
like the math is probably alimiting factor for me. It was
fine when I once, I finally hadenough activation energy to
(20:35):
confront these things. I gotthem done. I passed the test
easily. It was no big deal,right? And then I thought, huh,
I spent 10 years negotiatingwith myself about whether or not
I could do something like that.
And that goes for like, whatwe're doing now with the podcast
is that there was no activationenergy pushing me toward
(20:55):
anything. So I just was, like,mired in doubt. And I was like,
why would I look foolish if Idon't need to? Right? I lived
there
Colette Fehr (21:05):
for a long time. I think we all do. I think I'm so
glad you're sharing this,because I think that's so
relatable. I relate to that fromso many things in the past. And
this is where it comes down to acouple things. I think, first of
all, you have to want the thingyou're gonna do. And the best
life is one in which you liveit, doing what you love, right,
(21:29):
truly what you love. And if youcan make money, somehow, enough
money to support yourself andlive a secure life doing
something you love. To me, thatis the greatest win that and
having good, connectedrelationships doesn't have to be
romantic, just good people inyour life you feel safe with.
That's the win. So if you don'treally like you had a reason
(21:54):
eventually to want to be arealtor, right, helping your
husband, whatever, yeah, if youdidn't have a reason or a why,
or if you didn't want it, thenyou probably never would do it.
I think where people are robbingthemselves is there are things
they dream about or that theythink are exciting or
(22:14):
interesting, and the narrativeis, I'm too busy. It's not the
right time. My kids, oh, I don'tknow where to start. I wouldn't
know how to do that. I probablycouldn't make money at that. And
I think what I want to say topeople is, you know what you
don't know until you try to findout and your willingness is,
start researching, start callsomeone who does that on the
(22:38):
other side of the world, if needbe and ask to do a zoom. Offer
them some value in return. Imean, tell them read their book
like whatever the case may be.
Start to find out what goes onin that kind of a job or hobby.
Dabble in it like we've talkedabout before. The active dabble
see if the thing you think youmight love lights you up the way
(23:02):
you imagine it does. And if youstart to take action, there's a
way. I'm convinced now,especially in today's world with
the internet, I think there's away to make money at anything.
And there are people out therewho are not as talented as you,
not as knowledgeable, not askind hearted, some of them just
(23:23):
have the narcissism to like doit without offering anyone
anything, and they're making akilling. So I think the
willingness is to get into theact of dabble, but also to do it
uncomfortable. It is not goingto be possible to take action
and not feel if you'reespecially if you're not
(23:44):
narcissistic, if you do, likemost of us, we're women, we know
our value, but at the same time,we can doubt ourselves. You're
going to have some self doubt.
There's going to be a voice anda part in there saying you're
not ready, or what are youdoing? Or right? You're going to
embarrass yourself, and maybeyou will
Laura Bowman (24:05):
a little bit along the way. Maybe you will. And you
know, the other piece of it thatI just for me personally, that
I've has come together over thelast five years, maybe for me,
maybe, maybe even, like, shorterterm than that, like, the last
two and a half three years, isyou have to grow your capacity
(24:27):
for work. I know we've talkedabout this before, but like, if
you just don't, if you don'ttrust yourself, if you don't
think you can do something or,like, pay attention for long
enough. I mean, people's focusin today's world is like
Colette Fehr (24:43):
mine shot, I can't read a book anymore.
Laura Bowman (24:47):
I mean, I bought the like little cube timers for
ADHD, where it's like, I'll setit for like, a 50 minute work
block or a 25 minute work block,just to get like, focused work
done. Yeah, but over the periodof, like, two or three years,
this podcast is a great exampledoing certain trainings and
programs that I've done, and afreaking real estate learning
(25:10):
the real estate stuff or themortgage stuff. Like, it's, I've
grown this capacity for work.
And it's like, if you don'ttrust yourself that, like, you
can get something done, you haveto start somewhere, yeah, you
know? And I think that's likethe first little unit you build
is like, can I direct myattention somewhere for a
sustained period of time? Yeah.
(25:33):
And
Colette Fehr (25:33):
also discipline, right? No one wants to talk
about discipline anymore, butit's an hugely important quality
that we have, that some of thisdoes need, the ability to work
hard and grind, but you can'tget to any of that if you're not
willing to put yourself outthere. And this is, I do think,
(25:54):
that distress tolerance, thewillingness to embarrass
yourself. I'll give you anexample with very exciting news
that I've now posted all overthe world. So I found out, I
told you this, that my TEDx Talkis supposed to get picked up by
Ted like I've seen the email,thank you, with my own eyes,
that they sent to usfsm, whichis where I did my TEDx talk,
(26:17):
saying we're going to pick thisup and distribute it as an
editor's pick. It's going to goout to 42 million subscribers. I
mean, that makes me so happythat my talk will get out there,
the message reaching morepeople. And of course, it's
great for my book, because mytalk secrets of a couples
therapy therapist, is reallyabout what my books about
speaking up and using your voiceno matter what's going on in
(26:41):
your relationship, and the rightway to do it. Okay? So I got all
excited. I don't know when it'scoming out, you know, I wrote
about it in my sub stack. I've,like, posted about it online,
and then I was like, Oh my God.
You know, it like anything, it'snot done till it's posted,
Laura Bowman (26:59):
right? They changed their mind? Yeah. I
mean, they could, we've editedyours out, yeah, or,
Colette Fehr (27:05):
like, anything could happen. They could until
it's posted. And then I waslike, God, I should have waited.
Like, I got too excited. And Iwas like, guess what? World? And
then I was like, You know what?
So what's the worst case? Firstof all, that's just like fear
and paranoia. It's probablygoing to be fine, and I'm sure
it's going to get posted,although it can take a long
(27:26):
time, like I've heard that itcan take months for them to
actually post your talk. But youknow what? I also realized I had
a lot of like, almost like,shame and embarrassment, that it
would be so humiliating. Firstof all, nobody cares. Nobody's
paying attention to my life,right? Like I might feel that
(27:46):
way a little, but not really. Ijust decided, Oh, well, like, if
it for some reason, doesn'thappen, that would be such a
bummer. I think the biggest partisn't people like friends. It
said I told my editors, and Iwould feel embarrassed in front
of them if it doesn't happen.
But oh well. You know, maybenext time, maybe there's a
(28:08):
lesson in it, that next time,maybe I save this great news
till something like that comesto fruition. But at the end of
the day, even though I wouldfeel I will feel a little bit of
embarrassment if that happenslike, it's not going to kill me.
I can survive being embarrassed.
I think if you don't have that,though, and that gets built,
yeah,
Laura Bowman (28:30):
and I do not have that. Like, I think that I am so
embarrassment sensitive, like,this is such an inborn thing to
me. Like, I am so cringesensitive. Like there, and I see
it in my children, like, like,my I have one son who, like,
will say to his father, like,Don't talk when we go in here,
(28:50):
like, don't say anything. Like,he can't stand the way my
husband interacts with peoplesometimes, and it's like,
because he's so embarrassmentsensitive. And I'm like, I have
that. I have that too, Laura, II have it in like, spades. Like,
okay, I do too. Like, you're sofar beyond me in this, like,
(29:12):
like, it appears to be thatyou're far beyond me in this,
okay,
Colette Fehr (29:16):
but I think that is the point I'm trying to make
with these things. I feel like Itoo, didn't do some of this
stuff earlier because of thatembarrassment sensitivity. I
mean, I remember moments ofembarrassment that were almost
traumatic from being six yearsold, like I am embarrassed too
Laura Bowman (29:37):
very easily. Do you think this is like more of a
woman thing,
Colette Fehr (29:43):
probably, but I also think some of it is just
personality. And I think being ahighly sensitive person, you
know, I feel more deeply. I'mplugged into all the nuances of
things I will feel. Greatembarrassment. If I feel like I
said the wrong thing that maybeoffended someone like I'll
(30:06):
ruminate over that. So I thinkwhat I want to say to you guys,
our listeners, is that ifsomeone like me, who is so
embarrassment sensitive, canbuild more capacity to tolerate
embarrassment. And I'm notsaying that if something goes
wrong with my TEDx talk or mybook, I'm not gonna, like die
(30:27):
1000 deaths of embarrassment. Iwill, but I have more confidence
that I can, like, move throughthose unpleasant feelings and
get to the other side. And Ithink you have to have some
willingness. We feel so selfconscious. It's the spotlight
effect, which means it feelslike the eyes of the world are
on you when I started posting onsocial media, which is something
(30:50):
I would not be doing if it werenot for my book. You know, I
would have thought me five yearsago. Would have thought someone
like me, like, Oh my God. Like,get over yourself. Like, stop
posting, go home. Like enough ofyou, you know. And I still have
to deal with that cringe, but itis the way of the modern world.
(31:11):
It's what you have to do tomarket yourself. It's how you
have to build an audience. SoI'm doing it, and I just ride
through the cringe. And I thinkthe only way to get better at
dealing with embarrassment, selfconsciousness and cringe is to
actually do these things, yeah,and you badly and do them badly.
(31:32):
Do them right. Like, sometimesthey go well, and sometimes you
do. I told you. Someone said,like, Why is your face so long?
Someone else I posted said it'stime for a rhinoplasty.
Unknown (31:45):
What is wrong with people? I know my
Colette Fehr (31:48):
poor nose, it's so mean, but like, Whatever,
whatever you you, wherever youare today, you'll get better at
handling it through action.
Yeah. I mean, it's the only way.
Laura Bowman (32:03):
So what are we saying here? We're saying, okay,
the capacity for work startbefore you're ready.
Colette Fehr (32:08):
Yes, let it be messy. That action and that
active. Dabble again. We talkabout this all the time, but we
can't say it enough. That is theonly way to get more clear about
what it is you do want, what youlike and don't like, how it
works, and the only way that youcan build confidence, yeah,
Laura Bowman (32:29):
and I just want to say, and if I haven't said it
enough like there's been suchlike alchemy to, like working
together, like it's like goingto the gym with a Friend, or
like having somebody you'reaccountable to. Like, there's no
way I would have gotten thisthing off the ground without
working with you. Like, it'sjust, it's we work well
(32:51):
together. I'm so used to workingyour way now i I'll never forget
when I first, we first didpaperwork together. Do you
remember that back in like, backwhen we worked at the avenue
Colette Fehr (33:05):
for the divorce group, no, no,
Laura Bowman (33:07):
no, we did, like, intake, paperwork, practices,
yes, and I thought I was gonnago over to your place to, like,
work on this for like an hour,and, oh my god. Like, what
happened?
Colette Fehr (33:19):
I don't remember what happened.
Laura Bowman (33:21):
I just it was such a process. Like you are, your
process is so unique. Like youjust, how so you just, like,
type everything out, and you'relike, you really think about it,
and you're like, do you likethat indentation? Do you like
that do you like that color? Doyou think that that should be a
space between here, and I'm justlike, oh fucking God. Like, we
(33:45):
were like, five hours later, andI'm like, we're still working on
it.
Colette Fehr (33:50):
That's when I lived at Lake Lily. Yes, I
remember.
Laura Bowman (33:55):
And I just was like, I like, oh my god, she's
so thorough and, like, intense,and I and now I just understand
that when we're going to dosomething, it's going to be
like, we're going to throw itall out there, we're going to
refine it. Yeah, it's going tobe intense, and it's going to
take a while. That's the otherthing I want to say while we're
(34:15):
on this subject, is, yeah, thisis all going to take longer than
you think. Yep, you know, youthink you're gonna get something
done in, you know, a month orsomething, it's gonna take
longer, but it's okay. Like, Ithink the work works on you more
than you work on it sometimes,yeah? And that's the cool thing,
yeah.
Colette Fehr (34:35):
And we've learned so much from doing the podcast.
Things that were challenging atthe beginning aren't challenging
anymore, and now we're on to newchallenges. You know, we're
starting an online group basedon a group that we've run in
person called the midlife masterclass. So we'll have info about
that coming soon at insightsfrom the couch.org. If you want
(34:58):
to check that out. You. It'sreally a group about what we're
talking about today, actuallygetting into action and really
knowing and understandingyourself so that you're not
getting in your own way. And itdoesn't really matter if what
you want is to start a podcastor start a new business or write
a book or develop a new hobbylike take a painting, right? Or
(35:22):
become a runner. It does notmatter what it is. It's about
activating your best self atthis stage of life, because life
is so short and we don't knowhow long we have, and to look
back and have regret, right?
That's the Top Five Regrets ofthe Dying. According to Bronnie
(35:43):
Ware, the hospice nurse who satwith people for years on their
deathbed, the number one thingthey all said is, I wish I had
lived my life for me and donewhat I really wanted. So this is
about you don't have to achievegreat heights unless that's what
you want. It's about living thelife you want. And as women, we
(36:03):
have so much put on us, so manyexpectations, so many messages,
so many people we have to takecare of. We're not saying drop
all of that, but we are saying,make space for yourself and
figure out what fills you upbefore it's too late. Amen,
that's what we're saying. Yes.
(36:24):
So check out our website,insights from the couch.org, and
also, what we want to do forthis next year is really get a
lot of feedback from you interms of your questions. We want
to answer those in our episodes.
So write us an email at info, atinsights from the couch.org.
Topics you want to hear about,questions you have for us, you
know we may even do like a grabbag episode where we just answer
(36:48):
your questions as therapists,obviously, we can't do therapy
on air, but we're open to anyand all questions. So please
reach out to us, and we're sograteful. Yeah, we are grateful.
But we also want to hear whereyou're stuck, like, let us, let
what we do, and we see lots ofpeople, and so we have, like, a
(37:09):
really broad base of like,experience in this. And also we,
like, are living this firsthandall time, yep. So we're doing
the same, day, not us, yeah,yeah. We get stuck all the time
too. Yes, yeah, but that's thething, right? Women coming
together, good, supportive,empowering, women who aren't
(37:30):
competitive or bitchy, who womenwho want to lift each other up,
that we all succeed together,and that we have an abundance
mentality, meaning there's roomat the top for everybody, like
we don't have to cut each otherdown. We can all lift each other
up. And I really mean that. Imean that's such a backbone of
(37:51):
our friendship, is that wesupport each other, we encourage
each other, we're happy for eachother's successes. And frankly,
those are the only kind of womenI'm interested in knowing. And I
think that's really our goalwith this, is to have a
community. So talk to us. Let usknow where you're stuck, what
(38:12):
you want to know, what you wantus to talk about, and we're
going to really look forward tothis next year. We're so
grateful to everyone forlistening. I don't think we ever
imagined that the podcast woulddo as well as it's done. And
thank you to everybody forjoining us.
Laura Bowman (38:31):
Yay, next year will be even better.
Colette Fehr (38:33):
Yes, yes. Okay, so thank you everyone. Don't forget
to check out insights from thecouch.org. I had to think about
what our website was there for aminute, because brain fog is
still real at menopause. Andthank you all again. We'll see
you next week on insights fromthe couch. Bye. You.
John, welcome back to insights from the couch,
(00:04):
mental health at midlife. Todayis a very special episode
because we're celebrating theone year anniversary of
podcasting. In fact, the literalone year anniversary is
tomorrow. We started on June 5,2024 with our podcast launch
party. In a way, it feels likefour minutes ago, and in another
(00:26):
way, it feels like an attorney.
I can't believe we've ever notbeen doing this. So we've got
some exciting things to sharewith you today in terms of how
to bring your big ideas to lifewithout having it all figured
out. So you're going to want tolisten to this one until the
end. We're going to share somestories, but really geared
toward helping you get your bigidea off the ground. Yeah, I
(00:48):
cannot
Laura Bowman (00:51):
even believe it's been a year. I mean, we've been
doing this for a year, like 50episodes,
Colette Fehr (00:58):
yes, and that's the thing, it's not just the one
year anniversary, it's our 50thepisode. It coincided
beautifully. And what's crazythat I think we're going to dive
into a little is that you Icouldn't, I hadn't remembered
this at first, but you werelike, you know, we should really
do a podcast, and we ran withit. We did not know what the
(01:21):
fuck we were doing in any way,shape or form, right? We're both
technologically let me bediplomatic beyond
Laura Bowman (01:29):
behind the curve.
That seems so good for that,like I feel like I'm learning my
way around my computer in ways Inever would have
Colette Fehr (01:41):
well, except for the fact that I still have to
prop up my microphone for everyepisode. Yeah, we've, we've come
a long way. But I think the coolthing is that, you know, I
remember I was writing myproposal for my book, for a non
fiction book, you have to writea lengthy proposal with a
business plan and a summary ofevery chapter. And you know,
(02:03):
mine was 114 pages, so it's,like, basically almost as long.
It's a novella. And now I canremember exactly where I was
sitting when you said we shoulddo this. And I was like, Oh, my
God, we should, yeah, yeah, weshould, yeah. Why aren't we?
It's
Laura Bowman (02:19):
because I listened to like, six podcasts a day,
yeah. And at some point you'relike, well, I could do this. We
could do this. And then we'relike, these people who think
that our conversations aresomehow exceptional, because
they are, but we're like, youknow, it's like, when you think
your kids are the cutest, wethink our conversations are the
best. At
Colette Fehr (02:40):
least we're aware we may be delusional. And you
know what success is often dueto a big fat pie of delusion,
like believing in yourself andyour greatness is not a bad
thing.
Laura Bowman (02:53):
Who that one's still hard for me, like I know I
I have a hard time with thedelusional confidence, but this,
but even just this has been sucha great lesson in practicing
which I can get behind and
Colette Fehr (03:06):
commitment. And that's a big part of it, is
that, once we decided, and infact, it seems so long ago now,
I wanted to call it. What did Iwant to call it that? Oh,
friends with therapists, like ariff of friends with benefits
that I still love that title,but we found out somebody else
(03:26):
had started a podcast with thattitle, and even though they
didn't follow through, thatcould bring up legal concerns.
So it was now, it seems sonatural, and we're so in a flow
of doing this, but it wasdaunting at first, even though
it was a clear yes from both ofus, and I think there was a void
(03:47):
in the space out there of areally strong voice for women at
midlife that's empowered andholistic and isn't just mental
health, but is All of the thingsmental health touches in our
lives. You know, our successes,our well being, our physical
health, our friendships, ourrelationships. So we really
(04:11):
wanted to break because that'sall we talk about. Really, we
don't ever talk about, like,small talk, bullshit, ever,
right?
Laura Bowman (04:19):
Yeah, pursuit of happiness is all we ever talk
about,
Colette Fehr (04:23):
yes, and overcoming fear and existential
issues. So it seemed, it didseem worthy to bring these
conversations and start a builda community for women to have
these conversations. Yeah.
Laura Bowman (04:40):
Do you remember when we first started and we
were like, Okay, let's meet nextweekend and we're going to buy a
course that's going to teach ushow to do a podcast. Yes?
Colette Fehr (04:50):
And we never did it,
Laura Bowman (04:52):
no. And we were like, so overwhelmed by, like,
the equipment we'd need to own,and we had no idea, like, how.
We were going to make it work?
Were we going to be in the sameroom together? Like, what
platform? What did we need?
Headphones? Like we were soconfused. You know,
Colette Fehr (05:09):
when you say all of that, I think about how much
we have figured out. And I thinkthis is one of the big takeaways
we want to give to you guystoday, is that as therapists and
as women who started a podcastand didn't know what we were
doing or even if it would goanywhere, we didn't anticipate
(05:30):
being a top 5% podcast. Youknow, we had no idea if it would
be like our mothers and like ourdaughters listen. I don't think
my mother listens. Mine, doesmine. That's hilarious. But, you
know, we weren't anticipatingthat it would be. We weren't
thinking it wouldn't be. We justdidn't know, but we committed to
(05:51):
doing it anyway. And I think thebig key is that we started
before we felt ready. Yes,
Laura Bowman (05:58):
yes. We started like, scared. We started, like,
just jumping in and saying,like, it's going to be whatever
it is, right? And we're
Colette Fehr (06:07):
doing it no matter what, yes, and we're going to
bring our authentic selves tothe process, and the people who
with whom it resonates willlisten. And, you know,
hopefully, we'll find ouraudience. And of course, that's
happened, but there was noguarantee. And I think it could
have been easy to keep saying,Okay, let's spend, you know, a
(06:31):
year ideating. You can reallyget stuck in that phase of
thrashing with your ideas andtelling yourself, okay, as soon
as this milestone happens, thenI'll start. And what we want to
say today is, don't wait forthat. The best way to get
clarity and to learn and tofigure it out is to start really
(06:54):
messy, start scared, fuck up alot. That is the only way.
Laura Bowman (07:01):
Yeah, there's the line of, like, if something is
worth doing, it's worth doingbadly, which, like most women
are like, No, that's not theline. It's like, if something's
worth doing, it's worth doingreally well. And I think this is
the thing I see in women morethan I see certainly, in men.
And I don't mean to make it agender thing, but it is, is that
women are so about getting itright. Like, I'm in this, like,
(07:23):
health coaching thing right now,and every woman's like, yeah,
I've I've never coached anyone,but I'm gonna get like, multiple
degrees first. Like, I'm gonnaget multiple certificates before
I feel ready to do the thing.
And they never get around todoing the thing, because
confidence is made in the doing.
(07:43):
Yep, it is. It's not somethingyou can get beforehand and then
do the thing,
Colette Fehr (07:50):
right? You're here. So, right? I think this is
why, you know, 60% of women haveimposter syndrome. Very few men
have imposter syndrome. Societylook at even the way men sit,
right? I mean, I realize theyhave, like, a big organ and
balls dangling there, and that'spart of it, but part of it also
is like, I get to take up space,right? They man spread, and they
(08:15):
just, like, open their legs, andthey feel permit where I'm
always sitting. Like, yes,shrunken your legs have to be
clear. It's like the demurething. And I'm not really demure
at all, but it's justinteresting the way we are
cultivated and raised to doubtourselves, to be humble to the
(08:38):
point of self flagellation.
Yeah. So it is a hard sell, andI guess you don't really have to
feel confident. I always saythis, you just have to be
willing. You have to be willingto take action without
confidence. And you could arguethat's what courage is, right
taking a leap, it's easy to saythese things and what sound
(09:00):
like, social media, sound bites,but it's also easy to endorse
them intellectually orphilosophically, but when it
comes to the nitty gritty daytoday, if there's something out
there that you want even alittle bit and you're not sure
you can do it, or you're notsure where it will go, that's
okay, but it's worth exploringand taking some small action to
(09:22):
dabble in it, test the waters,you know, and be willing to be
bad at it, like you said, Yeah,because that's willingness.
Laura Bowman (09:35):
Willingness is like, such an underrated
attribute. I was actuallywriting my daughter her
graduation letter, because shegraduated from college a weekend
ago, and the one thing that Isee with like my daughter is
that she has always had suchprofound willingness like to try
out for teams when there was noguarantee she'd make it to show
(09:58):
up for like outward. Round tripswhen she had, like, she was
being dropped in, like,Yosemite, like, you know, with a
shovel to, like, poop in theground, like, and she was just
willing to do it. And she'swilling to, like, apply for
jobs. And I'm like, I can't, youcan't teach people that. So,
like, it's like being practicewillingness to just be somewhere
(10:23):
and to start, yeah, is, is like,it's like, it's halfway, it's
even beyond the start.
Colette Fehr (10:30):
It's probably the biggest part of the battle. And
I'm thinking about it as you saythis, because I see some of that
in my kids too. But I do thinkyou can teach willingness. I
think you can create, you cancondition the muscle. I don't
even think it's about teaching.
I think it's just about doing.
Because when I look back onmyself and my younger years, I
(10:51):
didn't have a lot of willingnessnow, I took big risks in certain
areas. That's so hard for me tobelieve. Well, I think I did in
certain capacities, like I wouldapply for jobs. I would throw
myself into experiences where Ididn't know anyone. You know, I
did a lot of things. Like I wentto camps in another country
(11:12):
where I didn't know a singleperson. You know, I did that
summer program at Cornell, andmy roommate was an inmate who
had been, like, released fromjuvie. Yeah, I never told you
this. No so real fast I did.
It's kind of interesting,especially when you realize it
comes down to cigarettes. So Iapplied for this summer program
(11:33):
at Cornell University because Iwanted to be a veterinarian. Now
I wanted to be a veterinarian,because I love animals, but the
fact that I can't even look at asliver of blood, literally
without wanting to vomit, didnot bode well for a career in
medicine. So in the morning, itwas very cool, because they had
(11:54):
a huge veterinary medicine theyhave one of the top veterinary
schools in the country. Yeah,they had a program for
architecture, they had a programfor engineering, and I think it
was like international politicsor something. And there were
about 700 high school studentsfrom around the country, and
even some international wholived in this set of dorms on
one part of Cornell's campus.
(12:18):
And we were there for like,eight weeks or something, and it
was the summer between either mysophomore and junior, junior and
senior year of college of highschool. And so in the morning,
you could take two classes thatwere would go toward your
college degree. I took creativewriting and theater, and then in
the afternoon, I spent from oneto five o'clock every day during
(12:40):
the week at the vet school,mostly doing necropsies animal
autopsies. Sounds so fun, yeah,and I would come out in like a
hazmat suit, looking like Carriecovered in blood, like I'll
never forget, the horse'sesophagus bouncing out of its
throat when they slit it like ahuge vacuum cleaner. And I was
like, my dad kept saying, oh,you know, my dad's a doctor. You
(13:03):
get used to the bloodeventually. I'm like, I don't
know. Basically, what I learnedis, I shouldn't be anyone's
doctor, right? Like, that wasthe wrong even, like a rat,
okay, yeah, so. But I loved thecreative writing and I loved the
theater. So anyway, when you'refilling out the application 700
(13:24):
students, keep this in mind,there's a place, because this is
in, I don't know, 1989 1990 thatsays, Do you smoke cigarettes?
Well, at the time, I was a diehard smoker. So were many
people, but most people didn'thave the balls to say they
wanted a smoking room on theirapplication that parents might
(13:45):
see. I wrote smoking, and Iremember arguing with my parents
about it, and I was like,whatever. I'm a smoker, and you
can't stop me, and you have toaccept it. Well, only like eight
people out of 700 checkedsmoking, including an inmate.
Yes, so this girl inmate is alittle harsh, but there was a
program through Boys Town, whichis a wonderful organization,
(14:08):
where kids that had gotten insome trouble and had been in
like some kind of juvenilefacility could be rehabilitated
and given a chance to haveaccess to this wonderful school.
So it was great. My roommate wassuper sweet, but she made
friends with all these people indowntown Ithaca who were super
(14:30):
sketchy, and they wereconstantly in my room doing
drugs and like it was insane. SoI was like, scared half the time
in my room.
Laura Bowman (14:44):
That was, like, even beyond, like, your comfort
level, right, right,
Colette Fehr (14:48):
right. But I ended up being friends with all of
them. It was super chill. Butlooking back, I'm like, only I
would end up at Cornell, atthis, like, prestigious program
with this Bucha. Stuff for amate, yeah, so I
Unknown (15:03):
put my cigarettes
Colette Fehr (15:04):
right because of cigarettes. So anyway, you know,
those are the kind of risks Itook. But the point that I'm
going to make here is that thoserisks weren't really out of my
comfort zone. I've always beenadventurous, and when it comes
to people, risks that I wasuncomfortable with, I didn't
take until later in life, and Ithink that's the big thing. You
(15:25):
and I talk about this a lot. Itcomes down to distress
tolerance.
Laura Bowman (15:30):
More about that. I want to know where you're going
with this, because I have awhole relationship with this
that, I mean, I think I'm alittle unlike you, and much more
inhibited. And it's been like, Ithink starting things and taking
risks is like doing a box jumpfor me, or like, standing at the
deep end of the swimming poolbeing like, I'm gonna jump in.
(15:51):
I'm gonna jump in. One day, I'mgonna jump in and like, I like,
really overthink things. So tellme what you're thinking about
distress tolerance.
Colette Fehr (16:00):
So I'm really glad to hear you say that I'm not
sure I know what a box jump is.
So you know where you'restanding
Laura Bowman (16:05):
there, and you, like, have to, like, jump on the
box, and you're not sure you'regonna do it without, like,
busting your
Colette Fehr (16:10):
knees. Now I know why. I don't know what a box
jump is. Okay, you're
Laura Bowman (16:14):
not sure you're gonna get it. And you're like, I
think I'm gonna get it. And,yeah, it's a little scary. No,
Unknown (16:20):
that's a lot of my life is a box jump, yeah,
Colette Fehr (16:23):
either jumping up or diving into the pool. So I
think that I'm gonna jump, I'mgonna jump, I'm gonna jump. And
overthinking. I think that'swhere a lot of us get stuck. And
I'd be lying if I said thatdidn't happen to me too. There
wasn't fear, there wasn't doubt.
There was an overthinking. Infact, on this trip to Italy,
having some space, I could feelcertain doubts creeping in about
(16:47):
all the things I'm doing and thenegative, fearful ideation, the
narration was like, what if youmess up like you're climbing and
climbing and climbing, andyou're feeling more confident.
But look how high you'veclimbed, and now the fall could
really hurt. And what are younot real, like you're not scared
(17:10):
enough, almost like it'sdangerous to feel safe. It's
Laura Bowman (17:18):
funny how that like creeps up as soon as you
slow down and like, settle intoyour like, yeah, motion. Staying
in motion is sometimes like, abenevolent thing, totally.
Colette Fehr (17:29):
But the way I talked back to it, which I think
is key and builds distresstolerance, is to say, Okay, it's
normal to have fear. It's normalto have doubt it's okay. You
know, I am taking on a lot, andyou then I redirect myself like
I notice the thought. I don'tfight the thought away, but I
(17:50):
don't lean into the thought. Iredirect myself into I trust
myself to like what's valuable.
I get curious about what'svaluable about that message. And
I think what's valuable is tosay, you know, I move so fast
and everything I do so I do makea lot more mistakes than some
people, but I also get a lotmore shit done. So I think part
(18:13):
of distress tolerance too isbeing willing to make mistakes.
And what's valuable about themessage, like, oh, you should be
scared to me is to say, okay,what can I learn from this part
of me that's telling me afearful story? Okay, maybe I
need to slow down a little insome respects. Maybe I need to
think some things through alittle more thoroughly. Like,
(18:36):
it's great to do the box jumpand the dive into the pool, but
sometimes we do need to slowdown and think a little
Laura Bowman (18:45):
shit. We're so opposite on this, yeah, like,
you, you have to, like, sort oflike, bring yourself down, or
say, like, maybe we need to becautious or think through this.
That's my default Mac, andthat's my default mode. I need
more activation energy. Like, Ineed the kind of thing that,
like, pushes you up on the box,or, like, the thing that compels
(19:08):
you into the water. And I've hada, like, a really rough time
facing those things. Mainly, Ithink, just to be totally
honest, my life has been prettycomfortable, yeah, and I see
this a lot in clients, and Iknow we've talked about it a
lot, here is that if, if you'recomfortable, it's it's really
(19:30):
hard to get the necessaryactivation energy to confront
something, because it's like,you don't have to do anything.
And it's like, why would yourisk feeling silly or
embarrassed or putting yourselfout there, or trying something,
if like, or even like, you know,some of these things that I've
done in the last couple of yearsthat I don't think are gonna I
(19:51):
just kind of did themreactively, like I got a real
estate license and I got amortgage broker's license,
because my that's what myhusband does, and I did it kind
of. Help him. But there wereyears Colette that I sat around
going, I could probably get areal estate license. And then
I'd go, I don't know. I don'tknow if I'm really cut out for
real estate. I'm probably, Imean, I could do real estate if
(20:14):
that's what I wanted to do. Idon't really want to do real
estate, right? That's not thepoint. The point is I would sit
and tell myself there's, oh,that test is probably hard.
There's probably things on thattest that I wouldn't be good at,
like the math is probably alimiting factor for me. It was
fine when I once, I finally hadenough activation energy to
(20:35):
confront these things. I gotthem done. I passed the test
easily. It was no big deal,right? And then I thought, huh,
I spent 10 years negotiatingwith myself about whether or not
I could do something like that.
And that goes for like, whatwe're doing now with the podcast
is that there was no activationenergy pushing me toward
(20:55):
anything. So I just was, like,mired in doubt. And I was like,
why would I look foolish if Idon't need to? Right? I lived
there
Colette Fehr (21:05):
for a long time. I think we all do. I think I'm so
glad you're sharing this,because I think that's so
relatable. I relate to that fromso many things in the past. And
this is where it comes down to acouple things. I think, first of
all, you have to want the thingyou're gonna do. And the best
life is one in which you liveit, doing what you love, right,
(21:29):
truly what you love. And if youcan make money, somehow, enough
money to support yourself andlive a secure life doing
something you love. To me, thatis the greatest win that and
having good, connectedrelationships doesn't have to be
romantic, just good people inyour life you feel safe with.
That's the win. So if you don'treally like you had a reason
(21:54):
eventually to want to be arealtor, right, helping your
husband, whatever, yeah, if youdidn't have a reason or a why,
or if you didn't want it, thenyou probably never would do it.
I think where people are robbingthemselves is there are things
they dream about or that theythink are exciting or
(22:14):
interesting, and the narrativeis, I'm too busy. It's not the
right time. My kids, oh, I don'tknow where to start. I wouldn't
know how to do that. I probablycouldn't make money at that. And
I think what I want to say topeople is, you know what you
don't know until you try to findout and your willingness is,
start researching, start callsomeone who does that on the
(22:38):
other side of the world, if needbe and ask to do a zoom. Offer
them some value in return. Imean, tell them read their book
like whatever the case may be.
Start to find out what goes onin that kind of a job or hobby.
Dabble in it like we've talkedabout before. The active dabble
see if the thing you think youmight love lights you up the way
(23:02):
you imagine it does. And if youstart to take action, there's a
way. I'm convinced now,especially in today's world with
the internet, I think there's away to make money at anything.
And there are people out therewho are not as talented as you,
not as knowledgeable, not askind hearted, some of them just
(23:23):
have the narcissism to like doit without offering anyone
anything, and they're making akilling. So I think the
willingness is to get into theact of dabble, but also to do it
uncomfortable. It is not goingto be possible to take action
and not feel if you'reespecially if you're not
(23:44):
narcissistic, if you do, likemost of us, we're women, we know
our value, but at the same time,we can doubt ourselves. You're
going to have some self doubt.
There's going to be a voice anda part in there saying you're
not ready, or what are youdoing? Or right? You're going to
embarrass yourself, and maybeyou will
Laura Bowman (24:05):
a little bit along the way. Maybe you will. And you
know, the other piece of it thatI just for me personally, that
I've has come together over thelast five years, maybe for me,
maybe, maybe even, like, shorterterm than that, like, the last
two and a half three years, isyou have to grow your capacity
(24:27):
for work. I know we've talkedabout this before, but like, if
you just don't, if you don'ttrust yourself, if you don't
think you can do something or,like, pay attention for long
enough. I mean, people's focusin today's world is like
Colette Fehr (24:43):
mine shot, I can't read a book anymore.
Laura Bowman (24:47):
I mean, I bought the like little cube timers for
ADHD, where it's like, I'll setit for like, a 50 minute work
block or a 25 minute work block,just to get like, focused work
done. Yeah, but over the periodof, like, two or three years,
this podcast is a great exampledoing certain trainings and
programs that I've done, and afreaking real estate learning
(25:10):
the real estate stuff or themortgage stuff. Like, it's, I've
grown this capacity for work.
And it's like, if you don'ttrust yourself that, like, you
can get something done, you haveto start somewhere, yeah, you
know? And I think that's likethe first little unit you build
is like, can I direct myattention somewhere for a
sustained period of time? Yeah.
(25:33):
And
Colette Fehr (25:33):
also discipline, right? No one wants to talk
about discipline anymore, butit's an hugely important quality
that we have, that some of thisdoes need, the ability to work
hard and grind, but you can'tget to any of that if you're not
willing to put yourself outthere. And this is, I do think,
(25:54):
that distress tolerance, thewillingness to embarrass
yourself. I'll give you anexample with very exciting news
that I've now posted all overthe world. So I found out, I
told you this, that my TEDx Talkis supposed to get picked up by
Ted like I've seen the email,thank you, with my own eyes,
that they sent to usfsm, whichis where I did my TEDx talk,
(26:17):
saying we're going to pick thisup and distribute it as an
editor's pick. It's going to goout to 42 million subscribers. I
mean, that makes me so happythat my talk will get out there,
the message reaching morepeople. And of course, it's
great for my book, because mytalk secrets of a couples
therapy therapist, is reallyabout what my books about
speaking up and using your voiceno matter what's going on in
(26:41):
your relationship, and the rightway to do it. Okay? So I got all
excited. I don't know when it'scoming out, you know, I wrote
about it in my sub stack. I've,like, posted about it online,
and then I was like, Oh my God.
You know, it like anything, it'snot done till it's posted,
Laura Bowman (26:59):
right? They changed their mind? Yeah. I
mean, they could, we've editedyours out, yeah, or,
Colette Fehr (27:05):
like, anything could happen. They could until
it's posted. And then I waslike, God, I should have waited.
Like, I got too excited. And Iwas like, guess what? World? And
then I was like, You know what?
So what's the worst case? Firstof all, that's just like fear
and paranoia. It's probablygoing to be fine, and I'm sure
it's going to get posted,although it can take a long
(27:26):
time, like I've heard that itcan take months for them to
actually post your talk. But youknow what? I also realized I had
a lot of like, almost like,shame and embarrassment, that it
would be so humiliating. Firstof all, nobody cares. Nobody's
paying attention to my life,right? Like I might feel that
(27:46):
way a little, but not really. Ijust decided, Oh, well, like, if
it for some reason, doesn'thappen, that would be such a
bummer. I think the biggest partisn't people like friends. It
said I told my editors, and Iwould feel embarrassed in front
of them if it doesn't happen.
But oh well. You know, maybenext time, maybe there's a
(28:08):
lesson in it, that next time,maybe I save this great news
till something like that comesto fruition. But at the end of
the day, even though I wouldfeel I will feel a little bit of
embarrassment if that happenslike, it's not going to kill me.
I can survive being embarrassed.
I think if you don't have that,though, and that gets built,
yeah,
Laura Bowman (28:30):
and I do not have that. Like, I think that I am so
embarrassment sensitive, like,this is such an inborn thing to
me. Like, I am so cringesensitive. Like there, and I see
it in my children, like, like,my I have one son who, like,
will say to his father, like,Don't talk when we go in here,
(28:50):
like, don't say anything. Like,he can't stand the way my
husband interacts with peoplesometimes, and it's like,
because he's so embarrassmentsensitive. And I'm like, I have
that. I have that too, Laura, II have it in like, spades. Like,
okay, I do too. Like, you're sofar beyond me in this, like,
(29:12):
like, it appears to be thatyou're far beyond me in this,
okay,
Colette Fehr (29:16):
but I think that is the point I'm trying to make
with these things. I feel like Itoo, didn't do some of this
stuff earlier because of thatembarrassment sensitivity. I
mean, I remember moments ofembarrassment that were almost
traumatic from being six yearsold, like I am embarrassed too
Laura Bowman (29:37):
very easily. Do you think this is like more of a
woman thing,
Colette Fehr (29:43):
probably, but I also think some of it is just
personality. And I think being ahighly sensitive person, you
know, I feel more deeply. I'mplugged into all the nuances of
things I will feel. Greatembarrassment. If I feel like I
said the wrong thing that maybeoffended someone like I'll
(30:06):
ruminate over that. So I thinkwhat I want to say to you guys,
our listeners, is that ifsomeone like me, who is so
embarrassment sensitive, canbuild more capacity to tolerate
embarrassment. And I'm notsaying that if something goes
wrong with my TEDx talk or mybook, I'm not gonna, like die
(30:27):
1000 deaths of embarrassment. Iwill, but I have more confidence
that I can, like, move throughthose unpleasant feelings and
get to the other side. And Ithink you have to have some
willingness. We feel so selfconscious. It's the spotlight
effect, which means it feelslike the eyes of the world are
on you when I started posting onsocial media, which is something
(30:50):
I would not be doing if it werenot for my book. You know, I
would have thought me five yearsago. Would have thought someone
like me, like, Oh my God. Like,get over yourself. Like, stop
posting, go home. Like enough ofyou, you know. And I still have
to deal with that cringe, but itis the way of the modern world.
(31:11):
It's what you have to do tomarket yourself. It's how you
have to build an audience. SoI'm doing it, and I just ride
through the cringe. And I thinkthe only way to get better at
dealing with embarrassment, selfconsciousness and cringe is to
actually do these things, yeah,and you badly and do them badly.
(31:32):
Do them right. Like, sometimesthey go well, and sometimes you
do. I told you. Someone said,like, Why is your face so long?
Someone else I posted said it'stime for a rhinoplasty.
Unknown (31:45):
What is wrong with people? I know my
Colette Fehr (31:48):
poor nose, it's so mean, but like, Whatever,
whatever you you, wherever youare today, you'll get better at
handling it through action.
Yeah. I mean, it's the only way.
Laura Bowman (32:03):
So what are we saying here? We're saying, okay,
the capacity for work startbefore you're ready.
Colette Fehr (32:08):
Yes, let it be messy. That action and that
active. Dabble again. We talkabout this all the time, but we
can't say it enough. That is theonly way to get more clear about
what it is you do want, what youlike and don't like, how it
works, and the only way that youcan build confidence, yeah,
Laura Bowman (32:29):
and I just want to say, and if I haven't said it
enough like there's been suchlike alchemy to, like working
together, like it's like goingto the gym with a Friend, or
like having somebody you'reaccountable to. Like, there's no
way I would have gotten thisthing off the ground without
working with you. Like, it'sjust, it's we work well
(32:51):
together. I'm so used to workingyour way now i I'll never forget
when I first, we first didpaperwork together. Do you
remember that back in like, backwhen we worked at the avenue
Colette Fehr (33:05):
for the divorce group, no, no,
Laura Bowman (33:07):
no, we did, like, intake, paperwork, practices,
yes, and I thought I was gonnago over to your place to, like,
work on this for like an hour,and, oh my god. Like, what
happened?
Colette Fehr (33:19):
I don't remember what happened.
Laura Bowman (33:21):
I just it was such a process. Like you are, your
process is so unique. Like youjust, how so you just, like,
type everything out, and you'relike, you really think about it,
and you're like, do you likethat indentation? Do you like
that do you like that color? Doyou think that that should be a
space between here, and I'm justlike, oh fucking God. Like, we
(33:45):
were like, five hours later, andI'm like, we're still working on
it.
Colette Fehr (33:50):
That's when I lived at Lake Lily. Yes, I
remember.
Laura Bowman (33:55):
And I just was like, I like, oh my god, she's
so thorough and, like, intense,and I and now I just understand
that when we're going to dosomething, it's going to be
like, we're going to throw itall out there, we're going to
refine it. Yeah, it's going tobe intense, and it's going to
take a while. That's the otherthing I want to say while we're
(34:15):
on this subject, is, yeah, thisis all going to take longer than
you think. Yep, you know, youthink you're gonna get something
done in, you know, a month orsomething, it's gonna take
longer, but it's okay. Like, Ithink the work works on you more
than you work on it sometimes,yeah? And that's the cool thing,
yeah.
Colette Fehr (34:35):
And we've learned so much from doing the podcast.
Things that were challenging atthe beginning aren't challenging
anymore, and now we're on to newchallenges. You know, we're
starting an online group basedon a group that we've run in
person called the midlife masterclass. So we'll have info about
that coming soon at insightsfrom the couch.org. If you want
(34:58):
to check that out. You. It'sreally a group about what we're
talking about today, actuallygetting into action and really
knowing and understandingyourself so that you're not
getting in your own way. And itdoesn't really matter if what
you want is to start a podcastor start a new business or write
a book or develop a new hobbylike take a painting, right? Or
(35:22):
become a runner. It does notmatter what it is. It's about
activating your best self atthis stage of life, because life
is so short and we don't knowhow long we have, and to look
back and have regret, right?
That's the Top Five Regrets ofthe Dying. According to Bronnie
(35:43):
Ware, the hospice nurse who satwith people for years on their
deathbed, the number one thingthey all said is, I wish I had
lived my life for me and donewhat I really wanted. So this is
about you don't have to achievegreat heights unless that's what
you want. It's about living thelife you want. And as women, we
(36:03):
have so much put on us, so manyexpectations, so many messages,
so many people we have to takecare of. We're not saying drop
all of that, but we are saying,make space for yourself and
figure out what fills you upbefore it's too late. Amen,
that's what we're saying. Yes.
(36:24):
So check out our website,insights from the couch.org, and
also, what we want to do forthis next year is really get a
lot of feedback from you interms of your questions. We want
to answer those in our episodes.
So write us an email at info, atinsights from the couch.org.
Topics you want to hear about,questions you have for us, you
know we may even do like a grabbag episode where we just answer
(36:48):
your questions as therapists,obviously, we can't do therapy
on air, but we're open to anyand all questions. So please
reach out to us, and we're sograteful. Yeah, we are grateful.
But we also want to hear whereyou're stuck, like, let us, let
what we do, and we see lots ofpeople, and so we have, like, a
(37:09):
really broad base of like,experience in this. And also we,
like, are living this firsthandall time, yep. So we're doing
the same, day, not us, yeah,yeah. We get stuck all the time
too. Yes, yeah, but that's thething, right? Women coming
together, good, supportive,empowering, women who aren't
(37:30):
competitive or bitchy, who womenwho want to lift each other up,
that we all succeed together,and that we have an abundance
mentality, meaning there's roomat the top for everybody, like
we don't have to cut each otherdown. We can all lift each other
up. And I really mean that. Imean that's such a backbone of
(37:51):
our friendship, is that wesupport each other, we encourage
each other, we're happy for eachother's successes. And frankly,
those are the only kind of womenI'm interested in knowing. And I
think that's really our goalwith this, is to have a
community. So talk to us. Let usknow where you're stuck, what
(38:12):
you want to know, what you wantus to talk about, and we're
going to really look forward tothis next year. We're so
grateful to everyone forlistening. I don't think we ever
imagined that the podcast woulddo as well as it's done. And
thank you to everybody forjoining us.
Laura Bowman (38:31):
Yay, next year will be even better.
Colette Fehr (38:33):
Yes, yes. Okay, so thank you everyone. Don't forget
to check out insights from thecouch.org. I had to think about
what our website was there for aminute, because brain fog is
still real at menopause. Andthank you all again. We'll see
you next week on insights fromthe couch. Bye. You.
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