How do we create deep, secure, and lasting relationships—not just in romance, but in parenting, friendships, and even with ourselves? In this episode, we sit down with Tara Boothby, psychologist, author of Love and Love’s Energy, and expert in attachment science. She takes us on a journey into the heart of connection, breaking down the complexities of attachment styles, emotional safety, and the power of co-regulation.
We explore the difference between being loved and lovable, how attachment wounds impact our relationships, and why true security is something we earn over time. Plus, Tara shares her own evolution from skepticism about attachment theory to fully embracing what she calls “love science.”
Tara Boothby, Registered Psychologist, and Author of "Love and Love's Energy: How Attachment Science Proves That Love Nurtures Our Biological Nature, Impacts Our Positive View of Ourselves, of Others, and of God, and Teaches Us All How to Love."
Episode Highlights:
[00:03] - Welcome! Introducing Tara Boothby & the power of attachment science.
[02:23] - How Tara went from doubting attachment theory to embracing “love science”.
[04:26] - The truth about attachment styles: It’s not as simple as you think.
[06:36] - What it really means to be securely attached (hint: it’s a process, not a label).
[09:20] - The hidden fears behind our relationship struggles.
[14:02] - Co-regulation vs. self-regulation: Why we heal faster in relationships.
[19:25] - The importance of repair in relationships & why small moments matter most.
[32:02] - “Earning” security: Can we heal from past attachment wounds?
[40:26] - Knowing when to press pause (or end) on unhealthy relationships.
[50:11] - Loving yourself: The foundation of all secure relationships.
Resources:
- "Love and Love’s Energy" can be found on Amazon worldwide, Kindle, and Barnes and Noble.
- Instagram:
- Website: https://sojo.ca/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SojournPsychology
- 🔥Get Clear on What You Want in Your Sex Life: Free Download!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colette Fehr (00:03):
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. We have a great
episode today on Attachmentscience and how to create more
securely attached relationships,not just with your romantic
partner, but that too, also inparent child relationships and
friendships. What does it reallymean to be vulnerable? How do
you create safety? How do wecope with the fact that we've
(00:23):
all been abandoned, rejected andwounded? How do we make the
relationships we are built for,that we are wired for, happen
and make them good and secureand loving? And we've got an
amazing guest here with ustoday, Dr Tara Boothby from
Canada. She is the author ofLove and loves energy, and she's
(00:44):
a psychologist in Alberta andBritish Columbia, where it is
extremely cold. She's worked atsojourn psychology in Sherwood
Park, Alberta as a psychologist,supervisor and Case Manager for
almost 20 years. She is also awife and a mother, an extremely
talented author, and she is anexperiential attachment focused
(01:09):
therapist, a certifiedEmotionally Focused couples,
family and individual therapistand supervisor, as well as
drawing from EMDR, the circle ofsecurity and meaning centered
theories. We are so excited tohave Tara here with us today to
talk about her book andattachment. Let's dive right in.
(01:30):
Okay, so let's just dive intotalking about your book. And
actually, can you start by maybesharing a little bit about your
own personal journey, even towanting to get into attachment
work? Yeah? Oh, that's a big,bold question, right? Because as
much as you want to share, yeah,I think it's funny, because when
(01:53):
I started out in the field ofpsychology, I kind of thought
attachment theory was nonsense.
I felt rebellious against it.
And I love that I know, and Ijust was, I was very judgmental
of the theory because I didn'tknow anything about it. So I
judged it before i i discoveredwhat attachment theory is, and I
(02:15):
prefer love science. I think SueJohnson's term love science, it
just makes more sense.
Tara Boothby (02:23):
Attachment is a difficult word to honor in that
it's confusing. But again, JohnBowlby, he's the father of
attachment theory, so there'sthis honoring as well of his
language, but I was much more inthe meaning focused existential
wheelhouse. And that was thatwas good too, because they they
(02:46):
go hand in hand in just this,the corrective epiphany
experiences that we're honoringin attachment work. So I thought
it was kind of crap. And then Idiscovered the circle of
security, which is a beautifultheory that comes out of the
(03:08):
United States. It's aboutparenting. And the picture of
parenting this circle wherewhere the parents hands are
holding the relationship, andthe child goes out on the the
top of the circle, the securebase to discover, and they come
back in for safe haven. It madeso much sense, and I felt like a
(03:28):
corrective epiphany. I felt avery spiritual bond with with
the circle of security. And thenmy my professional life kind of
exploded. I was had some, youknow, painful, collegial
experiences, and I trickedmyself into doing therapy by
(03:49):
signing up for the externship,the Emotionally Focused Therapy.
Step one, I'm like, I need to dosomething. But my pride didn't
say, get a therapist. My pridesaid, do trainings.
Colette Fehr (04:04):
That's so honest.
I've been
Unknown (04:06):
there. I've been there, me too, yeah, yeah.
Tara Boothby (04:09):
But it worked, and that was that was the beginning
of just obsessing overattachment theory and love
science. Love science is Sue'smodel is easier to understand.
It is crazy making to try andunderstand attachment styles.
What
Laura Bowman (04:27):
do you mean by that?
Colette Fehr (04:30):
And Tara, just keep in mind for our listeners,
you know, I'm also a certifiedEmotionally Focused couples
therapist, and Laura is wellversed in this information as
well. But for our listeners, alot of this is really new, so I
would love for you to clarifywhat you meant by that, but then
also take us into a little bitabout the way you understand Dr
(04:51):
Sue Johnson's model of lovescience, because a lot of our
listeners aren't familiar withthat. Yeah.
Tara Boothby (04:57):
Okay, Sue will talk about the. The cycle in a
relationship, and there's apattern, and there's different
parts of who we are that showup, they we get activated, and
then the dynamic is escalated,and that's for couples that we
see that in friendships, we seethat between parents and
children. We see that in ourprofessional relationships as a
(05:21):
therapist, as a psychologist, wefeel it in the room totally.
We're activated. And then, likefor a therapist, an emotionally
focused therapist, we feel thatactivation. I know I'm activated
myself. A therapist says, let'smove in. That changes a lot in
our personal relationships, too.
I'm like, oh, there's there'sthe emotional heat. So we're
moving into the emotional heatworth everybody. But with
(05:43):
attachment styles as well thecomplexity, we want to
oversimplify it. I think we wantto categorize attachment and we
want to label attachment. I
Colette Fehr (05:56):
agree with you, Tara, that like especially in
pop psychology. Now the wholething is like, what's your
attachment style? And it reallymakes me a little bonkers. I
understand the human desire tocome to terms with something by
simplifying it and to understandourselves better, and I
certainly celebrate that. Butit's not so simple. We fluctuate
(06:20):
and we show up as avoidant insome relationships and context,
and we show up as anxious andothers, and we can be secure.
And I really respect the factthat you're bringing attention
to this, because it's not aneat, Pat little box the way
people want it to be.
Tara Boothby (06:37):
I think that's beautiful. That's a great, great
insight Colette, and it's wedon't fit into a box. And so in
my book, I simplified evenfurther of like, sometimes we're
mover inners or remover outers,and we will sense into one one
nuance more than the other. Butsometimes I move in for for CO
(06:59):
regulation, and sometimes I moveout for self regulation. And the
more stability we have with ourself love, the more we know and
love our ourselves. We are wholepeople who are wholly loved. We
are flawed and fabulous. Themore I can trust that that's
okay, the more secure ishness Ihave, the more ability to flex.
(07:21):
Is this where I move in, or isthis where I move out?
Colette Fehr (07:24):
So what you're saying right now, I just want to
slow this down for a moment,because this is this is
everything. And you just said itso beautifully and powerfully,
right at the core of this, ofhaving secure ish attachment.
And I really like that you saidthat because if secure is not a
state we arrive at andpermanently hold on to, we're
(07:47):
trying to be more secure in ourattachment within ourselves, and
more securely attached to oursafe, reliable others, because
that's when we thrive most inThe world. And so that
flexibility, the more we loveourselves, the more securely
attached we are within, the morewe can move in, and the more we
(08:09):
can move out, and have theflexibility to determine when
those moves make sense and notnecessarily threaten the
security and stability of ourrelationships as we make those
nuanced moves, and we cannarrate it better with more with
more safety, yes,
Tara Boothby (08:27):
yes, and that's again, with the Emotionally
Focused Therapy model. It reallybrings people to a sense of
being embodied. Yes. The more weare living in our body, the more
we know our perceptions and ouremotions and our like Virginia
Satir would say our feelingsabout our feelings, yes, and the
(08:47):
more we know, our deep downattachment needs and our
attachment fears, those thingsthat get us in our fight,
flight, freeze and fawn. So whenwe're in a in a trauma response,
no matter the level of thattrauma response, then I am
pressing in because I'm afraidmy need won't get met, or I'm
(09:08):
fleeing or or, you know,withdrawing away because I'm
afraid of my attachment. Youknow, my attachment fear is
really I'm afraid of my need.
I'm afraid to need, right?
Colette Fehr (09:20):
And so let's, can we try to grant because this is
so big and so important, and somany people don't really
understand this, that underneathsmall moments, it's not just
big, traumatic moments,underneath small moments where
we get disconnected or somethingjust says, Uh oh, this doesn't
(09:40):
feel so safe. We're good anymorewith a friend, with a parent,
with a partner, there's fear,there's attachment fear,
sometimes we're afraid to evenhave needs often, and we know
this as therapists, people haveno idea what those attachment
needs are, right? Those coreneeds to know you matter,
you're. Are important, thatyou're lovable, that you're good
(10:03):
enough, right? I mean, it's sofundamental to humanity. So I'm
trying to think, can we givelike a little example, so that
people understand what we'retalking about, about these
interactional patterns? Yes,
Tara Boothby (10:17):
yeah. So first, okay, so we can think of like a
scenario, but yeah, maybe thiswill answer as well. Is a part
of my book too. Is, is there'san argument? What? When I fell
in love with attachment theory,it made so much sense about what
love is. And in evolutionarypsychology, we know that we have
(10:37):
nature and we have nurture. Andso from a spiritual perspective,
it just made such a great bigargument in my life for a loving
God that it's not just that Ihave this nature. There's also
this importance for nurture. Soif it's okay, this is an example
from being raised as a NorthAmerican Evangelical Christian,
(10:59):
was that I was raised to believeI was loved. Period that was the
sentence, you are loved. Butfrom the attachment theory
perspective, love science, weare loved. We are lovable and we
are loving. So reallydiscovering that I am lovable
just the way I am flawed andfabulous and lovable, flawed and
(11:21):
fab, fabulous and loving thatthat's so transformative, and
that's part of with EFT as well,is people start to recover their
ability to love themselves andthen to trust their own positive
intentionality so that they canbetter love others and trust
others positive intentionality.
That's my experience that, like,that's the big epiphany that I
(11:46):
had to say, Well, if we belongin loving relationships, there's
got to be a cosmic love that weall belong to all of us. Yeah.
Laura Bowman (11:59):
So, so is this like, kind of like an EPI, like
you describe it as an epiphany,like a revelation
intellectually, or, like, whereyou say, I'm raised to believe
that I am loved, but when youshift into I am lovable, flawed
and fabulous just the way I am.
Did you have a shift ofexperiences, or was this just a
shift of mindset for you? Thingsreally
Tara Boothby (12:21):
changed? Because, you know, within love, we can
have correction. Love doesn'tpunish. We know this from the
Emotionally Focused familytherapy point of view, right? We
we set up blocks, and lots oftimes in parenting, our blocks
are violent, even if it's notbeating our children, like I
(12:43):
don't beat my children, but if Iget mean, I that's violent, and
it's it's hard to protest, it'shard to correct within the
wheelhouse of love, but it'spossible. So can you
Colette Fehr (12:57):
use that example a little bit to explain that more
like when we get mean with it.
Because I think that's somethingevery parent can relate to.
Tara Boothby (13:06):
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, part of it is, from a
parenting perspective, is justbe mindful. First off, the
biggest thing with parenting isknowing just oops, I don't like
what I did there. That'ssomething and and again, we want
to find our own self regulationso that we can go back in and CO
(13:28):
regulate when you make aparenting mistake, rupture and
repair just, you know, go backback. Phil, let me think I have
school aged children, so thereare always parent mistakes that
I'm doing. Yeah, and Tara
Colette Fehr (13:43):
even co regulation is a term that most of our
audience may not be familiarwith, and it's so powerful we're
designed for CO regulation. Sobefore you even get in an
example, I would love to hearyour definition of that, because
everyone this is something allof us need to really access.
Yeah,
Tara Boothby (14:03):
so, so co regulation, really, our bodies,
our central nervous systems, aredesigned to move into
relationship so that we canbalance and so that we can come
to a point of like, homeostasis.
Well being, I'm in my window oftolerance now, because you are
with me. And then there's timeswhere we self regulate, and it's
(14:24):
like I've got to go on my ownand find my own balance so that
I can come back intorelationship. And the big piece
is, is that we do well. We aredesigned to thrive. We are
designed to just enjoy delightbenefit from relationships, when
we can live from our window oftolerance as often as possible.
(14:46):
But Parenting is hard. Yeah,yeah,
Colette Fehr (14:50):
Parenting is hard, and actually, human beings can
regulate twice as fast in theloving gaze of another. Other
and the proximity of a safeother than we can't not that
there is never a time or placeto self regulate, but it's so we
are so wired for attachment, forbonds, yes, that we're really
(15:13):
designed to feel better forupset being having someone be
with us when we're feeling thatway, just be there safely
existing with us in our emotionshelps our nervous system come
back to that baseline. Betterthan anything. It's
Laura Bowman (15:32):
beautiful, right?
I mean, I have clients as I'm Iwork with anxiety a lot, and I
have some clients that as soonas they get into like healthy co
regulation with another personthat they're able to sleep.
Finally, they're able to stophaving nightmares. I mean, the
the level that they're they justneed so much CO regulation. And
(15:52):
when they finally find somethingthat's secure and safe and feels
good to their system, thehealing comes quickly, right?
And this, I mean not this isn'ttrue for every single human, but
some of my anxiety clients, it'sbetter than any drug that you
give them, yes,
Tara Boothby (16:10):
yes. And so I think back to an example, just
this morning, getting ready forschool, and it's tense. And
usually the the tension is aboutsocks or something like that.
Socks, right? Everybody getssocks. Can
Laura Bowman (16:24):
never find them.
Tara Boothby (16:27):
It takes seven asks, I think, at least, and
then my child will say, Mydaughter, why are you yelling?
And it's like, that is theworst, because that can get us
going. We didn't fight aboutsocks this morning. But my, my
son has a field trip, and so heneeded a helmet. My husband got
the helmet, put it on. It wasloose. I said it's loose. And I
(16:49):
tried to fix it, but I broke mynail yesterday, so I couldn't so
you gotta make this tighter.
Then we had a, you know, alover's quarrel over this
helmet. And so basically what wedid was I drove the kids to
school and I said, Sorry, mommyand daddy had an argument this
morning. But, you know, we arguesometimes, and I've told them
(17:10):
before, it's like, you twoargue, but you love each other,
right? And mommies and daddiesdo that too. And then I just
texted him later, and I waslike, you know, I am sorry,
because he, he is upset with me.
I'm upset with him, but it's notalways about me proving what he
(17:32):
did right, because, let's behonest, it is always his fault,
of course, but it was more Iknew. I know his stress level
right now is through the roof,and so an apology is something.
And he called me immediately andhe said, Thank you so much for
(17:54):
saying sorry. Yeah, it's arepair. It's a repair, and it's
a small, a small thing. But I,again, I like this analogy of
and it's from the songs of songSolomon, and you tell the story
about marriage like a farmer'sfield, and it's the rodents that
come in and destroy and so Ithink of that picture, it's not
(18:18):
the other farmer who shows upwith their big truck that's
going to steal your crop. It'sthe pests, it's the small
things. Yeah, you know, andapologizing over the silly
helmet fight matters, yes,
Colette Fehr (18:34):
and that is actually the biggest thing, in a
way, like you're saying,because, from a love science
perspective, that is saying, youknow, the minutia of this is not
what's really important, butthat our bond feels safe and
secure even as we have normallife challenges, that's what
matters. I love you. I care. I'msorry we got into a squabble,
(18:58):
right? It usually doesn't haveto be relitigated, and that's
the mistake people make often,is who was right, who was wrong?
Let me explain the details. No,it went this way. No, it went
that way. You never listen,right? And none of that really
addresses the attachment piece,which is that I need to know
(19:18):
that we're still good, thatwe're still safely connected and
that this isn't doing harm toour bond.
Tara Boothby (19:25):
Yeah, and Jay and I, we were we're not physically
present with each other when Isend the text and he gives me a
call, but our bodies have 20years of CO regulation in our
history, and our bodies haveexperiences of repairing
ruptures. So for he and I,there's that, that easy relief,
(19:48):
yeah, so, oh, this is familiar.
And the circle of securitypeople when they talk about the
sensitivity. So our attachmentsensitivities is we're really
at. Asking, Will you meet me inmy unmetable place? Exactly? And
it's not just about a helmet,and it's not just about my kids
won't find their socks. It, itstarts to feel unbeatable after
(20:10):
a while.
Colette Fehr (20:13):
Yes, I love that language. This reminds me of
something that just came up in aromantic relationship, and even
the session that I just came outof just now, right? This is the
thing that some people whoreally haven't, not everyone's a
therapist, of course, and noteverybody's done this work, but
(20:35):
once you really understand theattachment piece and how
important it is just to bepresent and connected in the
moment that that's really thepower of what creates safety and
all these other moves are sodifferent. People try to
intellectualize, explain, removethemselves, argue, whatever it
(20:58):
is, all of those things. Reallymiss the MAR because when
someone's with you in theunmetable place, that's when you
co regulate, like I'm feelingsomething, it doesn't really
matter why it upset me. I'mtaking the risk to share with
you that I was upset because I'mtrusting that you at least I
(21:19):
have a chance that you'll meetme here, right? I'm being
courageous, and if I get backfrom you, no, that's not what
happened. Or let me explain toyou why, or you shouldn't be
upset about that, or you yell atme, get defensive or walk away,
then I am even more deeplywounded than I was by the
(21:41):
original thing, because I nowfeel alone and I feel that I
cannot be met in my unbeatableplace where I dared to show my
vulnerability,
Tara Boothby (21:53):
yeah, yeah. And I one of the chapters in my book I
titled like shame, blame andhumiliation, and there's these
nuances of when we we do thething that we hate, that we do
that behavior, and do I feelashamed? Do? Am I worried you're
(22:13):
going to blame me, or do I feelguilty or humiliated? And
there's different ways thelanguage around it getting
explicit to know if we say tosomebody, oh, you feel so
ashamed, it's like, well, thatmight not tune in and when we go
ahead,
Laura Bowman (22:32):
no, I just like thinking about an argument that
my husband and I had, and I'mjust thinking about this
unbeatable place. I'm justgrounding it a little bit and
and he had this reaction tosomething, and I had an
immediate reaction in my body.
And, and I'm a therapist so, andI'm an ifs therapist, so, like,
I knew a part of me wascompletely activated, and
(22:52):
there's a voice saying, Laura,if you let that part handle
this, this is just going to bebad. This is going to go really
badly and yet. And I triedreally hard to not let that part
like blend and take over, but itdid. And then I did the thing I
(23:13):
always do when I get thatfeeling, when I get that sort of
trigger from him, and Iimmediately thought, shit, why
was I not able to do thisdifferently even though I know
it's just the wrong move, and soI guess I'm asking both of you,
(23:33):
like, where do you go when youjust get sucked in to the same
move over and over when you knowit doesn't it's not going to be
helpful. And
Colette Fehr (23:45):
I think that does happen. That's human right. You
repair, you catch yourself asyou take a pause, you regulate
yourself, you come back and ownyour own, your move and say, you
know that part of me just gottriggered, and this is what I
was feeling. And Tara, I'm goingto let you answer this, because
you may see this differently,but this is how I see it, that
(24:07):
this is why repair is soimportant, because our nervous
system is its own wild animalthat will do what it wants at
times. And we're not always inour window of tolerance, but
that's why, you know, if we comeback and we acknowledge that in
a safe way, I do think thatprevents permanent damage, and
(24:28):
there's room in a healthyrelationship to be human,
Tara Boothby (24:31):
yeah, yeah. And, and you're alluding to it,
that's beautiful. And Laura, howyou say with ifs and the parts
work, parts of self. It'sinsight. And when we have
positive intention towardsourselves and positive intention
to the other person, we can lookinside and it's scary. I
(24:53):
remember when I it was like thethird or fourth time I took the
sensitivities the course I.
Activities from the circle ofsecurity folk and I went down to
Spokane like four times I had togo down there fly from Edmonton.
And the first time I was sittingin there with the cohort, Kent
Hoffman, was leading us throughjust this visualization and
(25:14):
about connecting with self. Andit was as if I was on the edge
of this cliff and I was lookingin this abyss, and i i It wasn't
God or anything, it was me. Isaid to myself, you can fall in.
Give yourself permission. Wow,but it's so scary. It's so scary
(25:35):
to get in there, especially whenwe don't know that it is okay to
be flawed. It is okay to beruinous at times, right? And I
had a friend who is strugglingwith their family, and I just
ran into them, and they, thisperson said to me, oh, you know,
I tried to reach out. And boy,was that a mistake. And you
(25:57):
know, here's this person who Ibelieve they're trusting their
own positive intention, andthey're like, I want my family,
so they reached out. And, youknow, it's so so sad, because
we're all just people likeeverybody else. Sometimes we're
good, sometimes we're bad, it'sjust heartbreaking. It's
(26:20):
heartbreaking how painfulrelationships are. Oh
Colette Fehr (26:26):
my god yes. And I have to say, listening to this
topic, I just to be vulnerableand real. I just had something
happen to me the other day witha very close friend. I feel like
I actually do even better. Now,in my romantic relationship,
taking these risks to bevulnerable, but in close
(26:46):
friendships, it can be hard forme. I haven't even though I have
many close friends, that's acontext where I'm not as likely
maybe to be vulnerable aboutsomething that hurts me for
whatever reason. And I washaving a conversation with a
friend about something veryintimate, and something
triggered some feelings in mewhere I just felt almost a
(27:10):
little rejected by somethingthat was said. And the thing
itself wasn't that big, but thefeeling it created, it hurt me,
and I decided in the moment totake the risk, to share it. And
I really felt that I wascommunicating for my adult self,
(27:32):
at least initially. And I wassaying, you know, I just want to
tell you some feelings that cameup, because this relationship is
important to me, and it's alittle scary to do this, but I
feel like we're close enoughthat I can tell you about my
inner world and that, you know,all I really want is for you to
just hear that this is thefeeling. And anyway, it did not
(27:54):
go well, and it did not go wellat all, and I got a reaction
that felt to me, defensive,explanatory, doubling down on
details, what was meant and notwent meant, what it why it
wasn't what I thought it was,and what my friend was saying
wasn't even what I thought itwas. So then, of course, it's
(28:17):
like the detail Olympics, right?
And I was feeling more and morerejected and hurt and alone as
the conversation continued. AndI had a part of me that thought,
wow, I just wish I hadn't saidanything at all and then, and
this is where I think, and thereason I'm sharing this too is
(28:41):
this is what's changed for meover the years and my own self
connection and self loveJourney, is that even as I was
in the midst of feeling sorejected, it did not feel good.
I'm not going to lie, it reallyfelt in my stomach. I felt sick,
and I felt sick about it allweekend, but what where I was
able to shift was I was able tobring my own loving presence to
(29:05):
myself, and I was able to say,you know, wow, Colette, you took
a risk to do something youtypically would never do. And
it's such a sign of my owngrowth and courage, just
interpersonally, that I evenwent there and it didn't land,
and I was able to feel reallyexperientially that I don't
(29:28):
think the person's reaction wasa lack of care for me, even
though that's how it felt. Ithink the person, my friend, got
activated into her own stuff,and I was able to feel that and
to have some empathy for that,and then also to really be with
my own younger inner child, myvulnerable self, and say, You
(29:48):
know what? That really hurt. Ireached for a connection. I
didn't get it. That person couldnot meet me in my unbeatable
place, but I still can be therefor me. And be proud of myself
for speaking up and know thatI'm growing and I can love
myself in that place. Yeah, andso it ended up being a painful
but also really positiveexperience for myself to
(30:12):
validate myself and extend thatloving care within
Laura Bowman (30:18):
I'm glad you told that story, Colette, because I
feel like we always think thatwe're going to be vulnerable and
we're going to take an emotionalrisk, and it's going to go so
well, but a lot of times it goesjust like you described, where
you're left having to take totalk to yourself, to parent
yourself, to say, I'm here foryou, and that's the step. I
(30:39):
don't think people are clear
Colette Fehr (30:41):
on a lot of the time, no, and also it felt like
absolute shit. I cannot evenbelieve at what I feel like. I
have a very I feel like I have apretty healthy relationship with
myself. I'm very emotionallyconnected. I'm a therapist. I
felt so wounded by theinteraction, the depth of the
pain even surprised. I mean, itreally hurt. It really, really,
(31:06):
really hurt, and I was okay. Butof course, who wants to do
things that could hurt? However,if we never take the risk to
connect, we know we'll never getit right. You've got so I it's
tough. Let me ask this question
Laura Bowman (31:23):
to Tara. I really want to, I really want to direct
this to like, I'm thinking oflike a client of mine, or many
of my clients, and they have notbeen raised in the circle of
security, right? They've hadterrible familial experiences
and like, abandonment andrejection and criticism and
content the whole the whole nineyards, and now they're
(31:45):
attempting, in their adult worldto find partners to heal these
patterns like tell us, give uswhat's the hopeful story on how
you can go from Never havinghealthy attachment to finding
healthy attachment. Yeah,
Tara Boothby (32:02):
you're talking about earning security. That's
what we do. So we we have ourown story, and we all have
relational trauma. We all havesome level of trauma. That's
what Colette's talking about. Asmy my trauma got activated here,
and that surprises me, because Iam emotionally safe with my
friend. Just to say one morething, I think, to Colette that
(32:25):
I it's, it's as if you trustedher positive intention, and that
if you were hearing the echoesinside of her, it's, it's as if
she's saying, Colette, you meanso much to me that I don't want
to get this wrong for you. Yeah,and I'm going to try really,
really hard to prove to you thatI didn't actually hurt you,
right? And you know that, andyou know that, right?
Colette Fehr (32:48):
Thank you for narrating it like that, though,
yeah.
Tara Boothby (32:51):
But then it's, it's it's scary. We get wobbly.
So when we we get married orfall in love, usually, like in
our 20s, those are therelationships where we're
scrambling more. It's like,Okay, I gotta find the one, or
that the false notions. Andwe're just babies. We're so
young, when we're in our 20s andwe try to find a life partner,
(33:14):
and it's pretty common thatthere's that urgency, then it's
changing a bit. Seems that theyoung people, they are more
promiscuous. I mean, we were allpromiscuous, but there's more of
this, like trial and error inthe 20s, and people are
considering marriage in their30s now, which is fine, it's
just noticing. But we, we wantsomebody who's going to be be
(33:39):
with us in a way that all of thepain that we've endured won't
occur. And so the beginning ofrelationships, that lust zone,
the crush zone, the honeymoon.
My friend is is recentlydivorced and started dating, and
he said, I'm just trying toenjoy the honeymoon and not over
analyze it, because when you youchoose in your 20s, and you're
(34:02):
not informed, often, many ofthese relationships don't last,
right? And then we have to pressplay again in our 40s or 50s and
and dating is always dating.
It's a anxiety provoking, it'san unknown, but clarifying our
(34:23):
wants in a partner is reallyimportant. This is, Who am I
looking for? Write it down. It'slike, what do I want in this
person? And the more we'reinformed about our own trauma
and our own attachment injuries,the pains that we've gone
through the relational trauma,the better we can sense into
(34:45):
ourselves and and and have thatlike love energy is the language
I use that we can have more ofthat charge and understand more
of that charge because makingit. Work is not about
compatibility. It's not aboutcompatibility. It's about
(35:06):
commitment. And though there'sthis old meme that's like these,
these two elderly people saying,In my day, we didn't throw
things away when they werebroken, we fixed them, but being
informed, you know, especiallypeople therapists who are
divorced. I have so manytherapist friends who are
divorced. These people are veryinformed. So the second marriage
(35:27):
is actually this beautiful placeto discover human relationship
in a fresh way. I've I've got alot of mistakes and a lot of
insight and a lot of of ofrecovery that I'm bringing into
this relationship now, ofmaturity,
Laura Bowman (35:46):
yeah, so it's important to do your own work,
yeah, especially the more themore injurious your family was,
or the more attachment baggageyou're bringing from previous
relationships. It's important toreally know how that impacted
you? Yes, and
Colette Fehr (36:03):
security is earned in the little moments. You know
it's it's really the smallestmoments when we're tempted to
continue to default to the wayswe had to protect ourselves to
survive those abandoning andrejecting moments earlier in
life. With that insight can comeawareness that, you know, this
(36:27):
behavior kept me safe then andnow, it's really keeping me from
having that intimacy and that itplays a role. It's not just what
your partner's doing to you,it's that and your feelings on
that are valid, but it's alsothe way you show up in the
little moment that's protective,that sends a scrambled signal to
(36:50):
your partner that then makesthem feel they have to protect,
and that cycle that we cocreate. So I really do that's
what we see in EmotionallyFocused couples therapy by
tuning into with compassion andnon judgmental awareness, there
are positive intentions, justlike you said, Tara, my friend,
(37:12):
I know her heart. I know sheloves me. It didn't feel like it
in the moment, and that's why itwas so painful, and how much of
that is her or me, or who cares?
It's it felt the way it felt.
And I had a choice, and I feltthe urge to, and I started to, I
started to react protectivelyand say, You know what? Forget
(37:35):
it. Fuck you. Forget it. I'm outof here. I'll never tell you
anything again, one and done.
There's a reason I never sharedat this level with you, and I'll
never fucking do it again. I canfeel that part of me right, and
I'm not saying it's totallyrepaired with her, but I shifted
into a place of, like, moreunderstanding and not reacting
(37:56):
in a way if I kick her away,then that's just gonna, it's
gonna produce another reactionthat further destroys our
relationship, instead, when andif, if there's ever a safe time
to talk about it, and I don'tknow there will be, I may just
say, you know, the way thatwent, I felt a little wounded,
and you know, I really, I knowyou had positive intentions. I
(38:20):
may even just leave it at that,but that's very different from
then saying, You know what? Fuckoff. I'm done with you.
Tara Boothby (38:27):
Yeah. It is, yeah.
And female relationships are,you know, this example is so
beautiful because it rings sotrue for female relationships,
we get this is how we get wobblywith each other, but when we
take a break, and there's aspace where we do take a break,
yeah, and there's, there'srelationships that we may never,
(38:48):
ever return to or shouldn't,right? And I will say that being
out of relationship is alwaysunnatural, and I mean even
people who it was so toxic, Ibelieve I'll grieve the loss of
those relationships for the restof my life. Agreed,
Laura Bowman (39:08):
yeah, and I love that you said that. I mean, I
just want to double click onthat, because I think you're
right. Like being out ofrelationship is unnatural, I
feel that sentiment too, andyet, there are some
relationships that are nearlyimpossible to participate in.
Yeah,
Tara Boothby (39:24):
and we get to like ourselves. If I don't like who I
am in this relationship, then Ineed space to consider. I need
to dive into myself and think,Okay, can I move into this
relationship in a different way?
Can I show up and be in mypositive intentionality with
this person. So when we presspause, my belief is, is when I
press pause, I am trying tocontemplate on or be present
(39:48):
with myself and evaluate, can Imove back in within love's kind,
you know, like, Can I move backin and have a volleying of.
Caring for each other, holdingeach other's circle. Can I, can
I live in a de escalated,balanced place? Can I stay in my
window of tolerance with you?
(40:11):
Can you stay in your window oftolerance with me? And that's
sort of the idea of, presspause. We're not going to stop
it. Let's press pause, and thenwe can, we can press play again
or not. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (40:26):
and we have to evaluate. And the more you know
yourself, the more connected youare to yourself, the more you
can really evaluate whatrelationships are worth it when
you really have to, sometimesthere is a hard line boundary
that has to be drawn, but evenwhen that's the case, there's
loss, because we're meant to bein relationship, and I'm with
(40:49):
you. I There are relationships Idon't have anymore, that it's
right that I don't have them,but there's still grief over
Tara Boothby (40:56):
it. There's grief and and then we participated in
the toxicness, yeah? And we, we,we weren't the true image of who
we are in those relationships.
Yeah. And so then when we havemore health and awareness, when
we just want to be insightfulabout ourselves and others, we
have better ability to look backand say it wasn't all them,
(41:19):
right, you know? And a marker ofsecure attachment, or the the
goal for earning security is, Ican look back on my past and see
it was good and bad. Yes, it wasgood about
Colette Fehr (41:33):
my part and own my part, yeah and own my part,
Tara Boothby (41:39):
yeah and not own somebody else's. Yes,
Colette Fehr (41:43):
yeah. You know, one more small thing on that
that I did, that it's funny, thereaction I got from some people
10 years after a relationshipended, it still bothered me so
much, the way I behaved thetoxicity that I participated in.
(42:05):
I was not healthy in the way Ishowed up in the relationship,
in its demise. Granted, a lot ofthings were happening that
pushed buttons, that pushed bigabandonment buttons, but it
bothered me so much the way Iacted that I actually had not
spoken to this person in 10years, and I didn't even know if
it was the same phone number.
And I wrote a message saying,you know, I just went it
(42:29):
probably seems crazy. Somepeople were like, You should not
have done that for like, fivereasons. Yeah, you know what? It
felt right to me. And so Ihonored my heart, and I just
said, Hey, I don't even know ifyou'll get this. It's been so
long, you don't even know I'm atherapist, but I just feel when
I look back on our relationship,there were so many good things,
(42:50):
but it got really unhealthy atthe end, and I want to just own
my part. I did not have goodrelationship skills. I still had
a lot of wounds I hadn't workedthrough, and the way I behaved
at times was really a big partof the problem. And I just want
to apologize for that and tellyou that I also thought there
was a lot of good and that Ihope your life's good. And you
(43:11):
know, I wasn't trying to readany response. Well, I did, but
what I got was, in a sense,unsatisfied, I think the hope,
in a way, I didn't do it to getanything, but the hope would
have been like, thank you somuch. You know, I too, played a
role. And like, I hope you'regood, too. I didn't get that. I
got Thank You for Your message.
(43:34):
I'm glad you're well, yeah,okay, fine. But you know what?
Then I thought, all right, well,you suck. Hey, and B, I'm still
glad, I'm still glad I did it,because it bothered me that I
didn't own my part, and I justwanted to say, like, I don't
actually need the response,because it's just a reflection
(43:57):
of that person's owndevelopment. I know they played
a role too, and I don't needthem to acknowledge it, but I
needed to acknowledge my partand just say that I'm sorry that
it got as like unhealthy andtoxic as it did. I've grown
since then I learned, and therewas a lot of good too, and I
wish you well. And I, in theend, I felt good about having
(44:17):
done it. Yeah,
Tara Boothby (44:19):
is brave. Very brave. I can be too. I get more
scared at the idea of thosethings. So I really respect
people who take those big risks.
And I think about them, and Iwonder, how did you do that? But
it's also, you know, like we canput so much emphasis on
forgiveness. I have I break thisdown in my book as well that,
you know, amends, forgiveness,repair, reconciliation. It's
(44:41):
really, there's a lot to it. Soyou didn't get reconciliation,
you weren't going to get repair,and you weren't looking for it.
You were doing an amends andapologizing, yes. And so it's,
it's huge when we notice whatyou did. Yeah. And your good
intention in reaching out,
Laura Bowman (45:04):
very scary, very, I think it shows that nuance.
But being able to, like, lean inand be flexible and say, like, I
know what I brought, yep, and Idon't expect, you know, you to
to meet me there. You know, it'slike, it is that flexibility,
and that's like what we'reworking for,
Colette Fehr (45:21):
right, right, psychological flexibility, yes,
and also, I think the more welove ourselves, the more we
mature, the more we work onourselves, which is a lifelong
journey, the more we do haverejection never feels good, but
the more bandwidth we have forsome of that, because it does
happen. It's part of the humanexperience. I didn't get the
(45:44):
ideal response that I would haveliked, but I have more ability
to absorb that than I would haveat another point where I might
not have taken the risk becausea rejecting response might have
felt too painful, and this iswhy I really do think,
regardless of what we've beenthrough, doing our own work is
(46:06):
so important, always that selfloving work,
Tara Boothby (46:10):
yes, yeah, yeah, repairing with our own self, you
know, like that, forgiveness,amends, repair, reconciliation
with our own Self that so muchhas the internal family systems
work, that's so much of theEmotionally Focused work, is I
love me again. I'm lovingtowards myself. I see I am
(46:30):
lovable, and then I'm loved aswell. And that's all that's
beautiful. But we, we, we livein such a culture where we don't
want to be inside of our bodies,and then we pop out into
behavior, and it becomesautomatic. The neural pathways
in our brain just move towardsthese behaviors and away from
what's uncomfortable. So true,yeah, and that's where the IFS
(46:55):
work that Lara does is is abeautiful model of
reconciliation inside ofoneself,
Laura Bowman (47:04):
yeah, and that's the work that people should
direct into like, you know,like, I'm thinking of a client
right now who, you know, has hadterrible security, family stuff,
and has had her like, ruinous isa word you used ruinous
relationships. But his instinctis, I'm gonna go find another
partner. But I can guarantee youthat he does not feel lovable
(47:27):
like he would say he doesn'tfeel lovable. It's like you want
to say, like, pause like, let's,like, push the pause button,
yeah, and let's do a like, alittle like, we gotta go inside.
And he has to repair with selfand begin to find self love
before he's going to be anattachment fit for anybody. It
doesn't matter if he has themost, if he has Florence
(47:48):
Nightingale, you know? And it'san attachment form, right? If
he's not got that self lovewell. And
Colette Fehr (47:57):
I mean, I think so many of the at least in my
practice, I see very few people,and they're all wonderful,
loving, lovable people, but whofeel lovable and good enough
truly. I mean, I think these arethe core human wounds we incur,
and the promise of the journeyof being more embodied and being
(48:23):
in relationship and creatingsafer relationships, is coming
to feel that we are indeed goodenough, that we are lovable by
virtue of breathing, and I thinkthat's out of reach right now
for so many people right that wewe've been rejected, and We've
been abandoned in waysthroughout our lives, and it's
left this feeling of, I'm notlovable, or maybe there's
(48:45):
something wrong with me thatthis happens to me, and then,
like you're saying, Tara, we'reout there with these behaviors.
We can't sit in it long enoughto work on it and heal it so we
never get to the core wound.
Tara Boothby (48:59):
Yeah, so we'll use this language of a stress pile
up. When we consider our ownselves, there's so much going on
that it's this big old pile upproblems, and it feels stressful
and insurmountable. How do I getin there and do this? So then a
lot of us shy away from thework. The best definition of
repair I've come across is fromthe circle of security, and they
(49:23):
say repair is, I am here, I knowyou need me, and we're going to
work this out. It's beautiful.
That's what you did when you'vereached back to that old
relationship. Is you're like,I'm here. I know you needed me
now. I didn't know it then, andwe can work this out. We're not
going to be friends, but youknow, we could meet each other
(49:45):
in this, that old, unbeatablemoment, yes, and, and probably
because you've that's how youwere on the inside Colette that
you were in this, this positionof your feet were on the earth.
Yes, and you were in your windowof tolerance, yes. So when you
got the rejection, you're like,oh, same old, same shit,
(50:05):
different day. Yeah, movingright along, yep,
Colette Fehr (50:11):
yep. And I could absorb it and not take it as a
reflection of my lovabilityworthiness, right? I didn't. It
didn't land like that. It felt atinge of hurt, a tinge of
disappointment, and then also,you know what? I did this to
make an amends to this person.
For my part, I've done that. Ifeel proud of myself for being
(50:32):
mature enough to do that, andI'm okay inside, even though it
felt a little hurtful anddisappointing, I'm still okay.
Hasn't damaged my view of self,yeah, but you
Laura Bowman (50:47):
wouldn't have done it had you not been able to
tolerate what was
Colette Fehr (50:52):
no and I wouldn't have done it, you know? I mean,
I didn't do it till 10 yearslater, right? I hadn't reached a
place that I
Tara Boothby (50:59):
could do that, yeah, yeah. And it's hard to
know, like I just I saw somebodyrecently who I expect I'll never
see again, and we are out ofrelationship. And I really try
to live with such forgiveness inmy heart for people and and love
them. And sometimes there's somepeople where I have to forgive
(51:22):
and love them from afar. Yeah,so because, and when I saw this
person, I was like, Oh, I do notlike you, and I do not like me,
I felt a big old fuck youinside, and the word hate was
floating around. I was raisedyou don't have that word inside
of you, but I I I live with suchlove now that I felt such
(51:44):
intense rage and I was okay withthat I'm not going to live in
that moment. Right To me, it's ameasure of terror, like you are
not super human enough to bearound people. My the risk is I
will have a trauma response,then right if I'm in that
(52:05):
intense rage activation, andthen I fight, flight, fawn,
freeze, whatever I'm going to dois not the truth of who I am and
when I'm in my fight, flight,freeze, fawn reaction, that's
when my brain is at risk ofgoing into autopilot, and I'll
do behaviors that are the truthof who I am, and then I'm not in
(52:26):
my body and I'm not in charge.
Laura Bowman (52:29):
And that's the whole thing, right? Is learning
what those what those triggersare, and what states you get put
in by certain relationships, andnoticing and like you're saying,
most people do not live at thatlevel. They're not in their
bodies. It's so quick, it's soautomatic. They're not
registering all of that, and
Colette Fehr (52:49):
that's why, as I know, we have to wrap up. This
went so fast, I feel like wecould talk for 12 hours about
all
Tara Boothby (52:55):
of this. Let's do it. Let's just have a sleepover.
Yes,
Colette Fehr (52:58):
I love it, but you need to come to Florida because
we cannot handle I agree. Iagree, but it really is like I
think what we we're saying istakeaways here. Don't worry so
much about your attachment styleor figuring it out. Really work.
Do the work to get to knowyourself. Be more embodied. Have
(53:20):
less judgment for yourself. It'sa process, and take risks, small
risks that feel doable, tocreate more secure responses and
more secure bonds in yourrelationships. By the way, you
respond, even little, tinythings, right? If you have a
reaction, it's human. You'regoing to yell at your kids,
(53:42):
you're going to fight with yourhusband in front of your kids,
you're going to be an asshole.
It's inevitable. We all do,right? And that's okay, but you
can rap out of the field, yes,and come back and say, You know
what? I totally let myfrustration overwhelm me. I know
I tell I mean, I have to saythis to my husband all the time
because I'm very Italian andexpressive, and I think I'm
(54:05):
being so soft. And meanwhile,I'm like this, like a whirling
dervish, and his alarm bells aregoing off, and I'll come back
and say, You know what, I gotreally feisty there for a
minute, and I'm sure that didn'tfeel good. I'm sorry for the way
I spoke to you. I'm sorry I gotso annoyed, right? And then most
of the time, that small thingalone has so much power to take
(54:28):
us from a disconnected placewhere we're going to spiral into
like, Okay, thank you forapologizing, right? Just like
what you describe with yourhusband. So you don't have to be
a therapist, but do sometherapy. I mean, I really do
think that's a takeaway. Andobviously this is not self
promotion, since most of youlistening couldn't even come to
(54:49):
us just by virtue of laws andlocation, but it's worth it to
spend some time working onyourself and loving yourself and
know. I love what you said aboutloved, lovable and loving, yeah,
that we're all that way. AndTara, before we let you go, can
you share with us the full nameof your book, where it's
(55:11):
available, and then how ourlisteners can find you on social
media or get in touch with you?
Tara Boothby (55:17):
Yeah, that's beautiful. The book is love and
loves energy. So there's mybeautiful book and my love,
yeah, my dear friend did the artfor it, for this book, and it's
just the even the image is sopowerful that people like to
just look at it. Or when they'rereading, they said, I just kept
flipping back to the front andthe cover to see if, if you were
(55:40):
going to get to the place whereI hope you are going to get to.
So love and love. Yeah, love andloves. Energy. How attachment,
science proves that lovenurtures our biological nature,
impacts our positive view ofourselves, of others and of God,
and teaches us all how to love.
I am on social media. I lovesocial media. I love it. I love
trying to be a positive oasis onthe journey of social media and
(56:05):
our company here. So one of ourpages is sojourn psychology on
Instagram, we have a sojournpsychology YouTube, where we put
something up once a week and andthen Tara Boothby, so we'll make
sure we have my proper name andfind it on social media. I love
it. We
Colette Fehr (56:25):
will include that in the show notes so everyone
can follow you. And I think yourbook is wonderful. The cover art
is beautiful, and I think thisis stuff that everybody needs
access to. So thank you forwriting the
Tara Boothby (56:40):
book. Yeah, thank you, and thank you for having
me. Thank
Colette Fehr (56:43):
you so much for your time, Tara, we appreciate
you, and thank you to all of ourlisteners. Sure you learned a
lot today about attachment andlove and love ability, and we
hope that you enjoyed thisepisode of insights from the
couch. We'll see you next timeyou
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to insights fromthe couch. We have a great
episode today on Attachmentscience and how to create more
securely attached relationships,not just with your romantic
partner, but that too, also inparent child relationships and
friendships. What does it reallymean to be vulnerable? How do
you create safety? How do wecope with the fact that we've
(00:23):
all been abandoned, rejected andwounded? How do we make the
relationships we are built for,that we are wired for, happen
and make them good and secureand loving? And we've got an
amazing guest here with ustoday, Dr Tara Boothby from
Canada. She is the author ofLove and loves energy, and she's
(00:44):
a psychologist in Alberta andBritish Columbia, where it is
extremely cold. She's worked atsojourn psychology in Sherwood
Park, Alberta as a psychologist,supervisor and Case Manager for
almost 20 years. She is also awife and a mother, an extremely
talented author, and she is anexperiential attachment focused
(01:09):
therapist, a certifiedEmotionally Focused couples,
family and individual therapistand supervisor, as well as
drawing from EMDR, the circle ofsecurity and meaning centered
theories. We are so excited tohave Tara here with us today to
talk about her book andattachment. Let's dive right in.
(01:30):
Okay, so let's just dive intotalking about your book. And
actually, can you start by maybesharing a little bit about your
own personal journey, even towanting to get into attachment
work? Yeah? Oh, that's a big,bold question, right? Because as
much as you want to share, yeah,I think it's funny, because when
(01:53):
I started out in the field ofpsychology, I kind of thought
attachment theory was nonsense.
I felt rebellious against it.
And I love that I know, and Ijust was, I was very judgmental
of the theory because I didn'tknow anything about it. So I
judged it before i i discoveredwhat attachment theory is, and I
(02:15):
prefer love science. I think SueJohnson's term love science, it
just makes more sense.
Tara Boothby (02:23):
Attachment is a difficult word to honor in that
it's confusing. But again, JohnBowlby, he's the father of
attachment theory, so there'sthis honoring as well of his
language, but I was much more inthe meaning focused existential
wheelhouse. And that was thatwas good too, because they they
(02:46):
go hand in hand in just this,the corrective epiphany
experiences that we're honoringin attachment work. So I thought
it was kind of crap. And then Idiscovered the circle of
security, which is a beautifultheory that comes out of the
(03:08):
United States. It's aboutparenting. And the picture of
parenting this circle wherewhere the parents hands are
holding the relationship, andthe child goes out on the the
top of the circle, the securebase to discover, and they come
back in for safe haven. It madeso much sense, and I felt like a
(03:28):
corrective epiphany. I felt avery spiritual bond with with
the circle of security. And thenmy my professional life kind of
exploded. I was had some, youknow, painful, collegial
experiences, and I trickedmyself into doing therapy by
(03:49):
signing up for the externship,the Emotionally Focused Therapy.
Step one, I'm like, I need to dosomething. But my pride didn't
say, get a therapist. My pridesaid, do trainings.
Colette Fehr (04:04):
That's so honest.
I've been
Unknown (04:06):
there. I've been there, me too, yeah, yeah.
Tara Boothby (04:09):
But it worked, and that was that was the beginning
of just obsessing overattachment theory and love
science. Love science is Sue'smodel is easier to understand.
It is crazy making to try andunderstand attachment styles.
What
Laura Bowman (04:27):
do you mean by that?
Colette Fehr (04:30):
And Tara, just keep in mind for our listeners,
you know, I'm also a certifiedEmotionally Focused couples
therapist, and Laura is wellversed in this information as
well. But for our listeners, alot of this is really new, so I
would love for you to clarifywhat you meant by that, but then
also take us into a little bitabout the way you understand Dr
(04:51):
Sue Johnson's model of lovescience, because a lot of our
listeners aren't familiar withthat. Yeah.
Tara Boothby (04:57):
Okay, Sue will talk about the. The cycle in a
relationship, and there's apattern, and there's different
parts of who we are that showup, they we get activated, and
then the dynamic is escalated,and that's for couples that we
see that in friendships, we seethat between parents and
children. We see that in ourprofessional relationships as a
(05:21):
therapist, as a psychologist, wefeel it in the room totally.
We're activated. And then, likefor a therapist, an emotionally
focused therapist, we feel thatactivation. I know I'm activated
myself. A therapist says, let'smove in. That changes a lot in
our personal relationships, too.
I'm like, oh, there's there'sthe emotional heat. So we're
moving into the emotional heatworth everybody. But with
(05:43):
attachment styles as well thecomplexity, we want to
oversimplify it. I think we wantto categorize attachment and we
want to label attachment. I
Colette Fehr (05:56):
agree with you, Tara, that like especially in
pop psychology. Now the wholething is like, what's your
attachment style? And it reallymakes me a little bonkers. I
understand the human desire tocome to terms with something by
simplifying it and to understandourselves better, and I
certainly celebrate that. Butit's not so simple. We fluctuate
(06:20):
and we show up as avoidant insome relationships and context,
and we show up as anxious andothers, and we can be secure.
And I really respect the factthat you're bringing attention
to this, because it's not aneat, Pat little box the way
people want it to be.
Tara Boothby (06:37):
I think that's beautiful. That's a great, great
insight Colette, and it's wedon't fit into a box. And so in
my book, I simplified evenfurther of like, sometimes we're
mover inners or remover outers,and we will sense into one one
nuance more than the other. Butsometimes I move in for for CO
(06:59):
regulation, and sometimes I moveout for self regulation. And the
more stability we have with ourself love, the more we know and
love our ourselves. We are wholepeople who are wholly loved. We
are flawed and fabulous. Themore I can trust that that's
okay, the more secure ishness Ihave, the more ability to flex.
(07:21):
Is this where I move in, or isthis where I move out?
Colette Fehr (07:24):
So what you're saying right now, I just want to
slow this down for a moment,because this is this is
everything. And you just said itso beautifully and powerfully,
right at the core of this, ofhaving secure ish attachment.
And I really like that you saidthat because if secure is not a
state we arrive at andpermanently hold on to, we're
(07:47):
trying to be more secure in ourattachment within ourselves, and
more securely attached to oursafe, reliable others, because
that's when we thrive most inThe world. And so that
flexibility, the more we loveourselves, the more securely
attached we are within, the morewe can move in, and the more we
(08:09):
can move out, and have theflexibility to determine when
those moves make sense and notnecessarily threaten the
security and stability of ourrelationships as we make those
nuanced moves, and we cannarrate it better with more with
more safety, yes,
Tara Boothby (08:27):
yes, and that's again, with the Emotionally
Focused Therapy model. It reallybrings people to a sense of
being embodied. Yes. The more weare living in our body, the more
we know our perceptions and ouremotions and our like Virginia
Satir would say our feelingsabout our feelings, yes, and the
(08:47):
more we know, our deep downattachment needs and our
attachment fears, those thingsthat get us in our fight,
flight, freeze and fawn. So whenwe're in a in a trauma response,
no matter the level of thattrauma response, then I am
pressing in because I'm afraidmy need won't get met, or I'm
(09:08):
fleeing or or, you know,withdrawing away because I'm
afraid of my attachment. Youknow, my attachment fear is
really I'm afraid of my need.
I'm afraid to need, right?
Colette Fehr (09:20):
And so let's, can we try to grant because this is
so big and so important, and somany people don't really
understand this, that underneathsmall moments, it's not just
big, traumatic moments,underneath small moments where
we get disconnected or somethingjust says, Uh oh, this doesn't
(09:40):
feel so safe. We're good anymorewith a friend, with a parent,
with a partner, there's fear,there's attachment fear,
sometimes we're afraid to evenhave needs often, and we know
this as therapists, people haveno idea what those attachment
needs are, right? Those coreneeds to know you matter,
you're. Are important, thatyou're lovable, that you're good
(10:03):
enough, right? I mean, it's sofundamental to humanity. So I'm
trying to think, can we givelike a little example, so that
people understand what we'retalking about, about these
interactional patterns? Yes,
Tara Boothby (10:17):
yeah. So first, okay, so we can think of like a
scenario, but yeah, maybe thiswill answer as well. Is a part
of my book too. Is, is there'san argument? What? When I fell
in love with attachment theory,it made so much sense about what
love is. And in evolutionarypsychology, we know that we have
(10:37):
nature and we have nurture. Andso from a spiritual perspective,
it just made such a great bigargument in my life for a loving
God that it's not just that Ihave this nature. There's also
this importance for nurture. Soif it's okay, this is an example
from being raised as a NorthAmerican Evangelical Christian,
(10:59):
was that I was raised to believeI was loved. Period that was the
sentence, you are loved. Butfrom the attachment theory
perspective, love science, weare loved. We are lovable and we
are loving. So reallydiscovering that I am lovable
just the way I am flawed andfabulous and lovable, flawed and
(11:21):
fab, fabulous and loving thatthat's so transformative, and
that's part of with EFT as well,is people start to recover their
ability to love themselves andthen to trust their own positive
intentionality so that they canbetter love others and trust
others positive intentionality.
That's my experience that, like,that's the big epiphany that I
(11:46):
had to say, Well, if we belongin loving relationships, there's
got to be a cosmic love that weall belong to all of us. Yeah.
Laura Bowman (11:59):
So, so is this like, kind of like an EPI, like
you describe it as an epiphany,like a revelation
intellectually, or, like, whereyou say, I'm raised to believe
that I am loved, but when youshift into I am lovable, flawed
and fabulous just the way I am.
Did you have a shift ofexperiences, or was this just a
shift of mindset for you? Thingsreally
Tara Boothby (12:21):
changed? Because, you know, within love, we can
have correction. Love doesn'tpunish. We know this from the
Emotionally Focused familytherapy point of view, right? We
we set up blocks, and lots oftimes in parenting, our blocks
are violent, even if it's notbeating our children, like I
(12:43):
don't beat my children, but if Iget mean, I that's violent, and
it's it's hard to protest, it'shard to correct within the
wheelhouse of love, but it'spossible. So can you
Colette Fehr (12:57):
use that example a little bit to explain that more
like when we get mean with it.
Because I think that's somethingevery parent can relate to.
Tara Boothby (13:06):
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, part of it is, from a
parenting perspective, is justbe mindful. First off, the
biggest thing with parenting isknowing just oops, I don't like
what I did there. That'ssomething and and again, we want
to find our own self regulationso that we can go back in and CO
(13:28):
regulate when you make aparenting mistake, rupture and
repair just, you know, go backback. Phil, let me think I have
school aged children, so thereare always parent mistakes that
I'm doing. Yeah, and Tara
Colette Fehr (13:43):
even co regulation is a term that most of our
audience may not be familiarwith, and it's so powerful we're
designed for CO regulation. Sobefore you even get in an
example, I would love to hearyour definition of that, because
everyone this is something allof us need to really access.
Yeah,
Tara Boothby (14:03):
so, so co regulation, really, our bodies,
our central nervous systems, aredesigned to move into
relationship so that we canbalance and so that we can come
to a point of like, homeostasis.
Well being, I'm in my window oftolerance now, because you are
with me. And then there's timeswhere we self regulate, and it's
(14:24):
like I've got to go on my ownand find my own balance so that
I can come back intorelationship. And the big piece
is, is that we do well. We aredesigned to thrive. We are
designed to just enjoy delightbenefit from relationships, when
we can live from our window oftolerance as often as possible.
(14:46):
But Parenting is hard. Yeah,yeah,
Colette Fehr (14:50):
Parenting is hard, and actually, human beings can
regulate twice as fast in theloving gaze of another. Other
and the proximity of a safeother than we can't not that
there is never a time or placeto self regulate, but it's so we
are so wired for attachment, forbonds, yes, that we're really
(15:13):
designed to feel better forupset being having someone be
with us when we're feeling thatway, just be there safely
existing with us in our emotionshelps our nervous system come
back to that baseline. Betterthan anything. It's
Laura Bowman (15:32):
beautiful, right?
I mean, I have clients as I'm Iwork with anxiety a lot, and I
have some clients that as soonas they get into like healthy co
regulation with another personthat they're able to sleep.
Finally, they're able to stophaving nightmares. I mean, the
the level that they're they justneed so much CO regulation. And
(15:52):
when they finally find somethingthat's secure and safe and feels
good to their system, thehealing comes quickly, right?
And this, I mean not this isn'ttrue for every single human, but
some of my anxiety clients, it'sbetter than any drug that you
give them, yes,
Tara Boothby (16:10):
yes. And so I think back to an example, just
this morning, getting ready forschool, and it's tense. And
usually the the tension is aboutsocks or something like that.
Socks, right? Everybody getssocks. Can
Laura Bowman (16:24):
never find them.
Tara Boothby (16:27):
It takes seven asks, I think, at least, and
then my child will say, Mydaughter, why are you yelling?
And it's like, that is theworst, because that can get us
going. We didn't fight aboutsocks this morning. But my, my
son has a field trip, and so heneeded a helmet. My husband got
the helmet, put it on. It wasloose. I said it's loose. And I
(16:49):
tried to fix it, but I broke mynail yesterday, so I couldn't so
you gotta make this tighter.
Then we had a, you know, alover's quarrel over this
helmet. And so basically what wedid was I drove the kids to
school and I said, Sorry, mommyand daddy had an argument this
morning. But, you know, we arguesometimes, and I've told them
(17:10):
before, it's like, you twoargue, but you love each other,
right? And mommies and daddiesdo that too. And then I just
texted him later, and I waslike, you know, I am sorry,
because he, he is upset with me.
I'm upset with him, but it's notalways about me proving what he
(17:32):
did right, because, let's behonest, it is always his fault,
of course, but it was more Iknew. I know his stress level
right now is through the roof,and so an apology is something.
And he called me immediately andhe said, Thank you so much for
(17:54):
saying sorry. Yeah, it's arepair. It's a repair, and it's
a small, a small thing. But I,again, I like this analogy of
and it's from the songs of songSolomon, and you tell the story
about marriage like a farmer'sfield, and it's the rodents that
come in and destroy and so Ithink of that picture, it's not
(18:18):
the other farmer who shows upwith their big truck that's
going to steal your crop. It'sthe pests, it's the small
things. Yeah, you know, andapologizing over the silly
helmet fight matters, yes,
Colette Fehr (18:34):
and that is actually the biggest thing, in a
way, like you're saying,because, from a love science
perspective, that is saying, youknow, the minutia of this is not
what's really important, butthat our bond feels safe and
secure even as we have normallife challenges, that's what
matters. I love you. I care. I'msorry we got into a squabble,
(18:58):
right? It usually doesn't haveto be relitigated, and that's
the mistake people make often,is who was right, who was wrong?
Let me explain the details. No,it went this way. No, it went
that way. You never listen,right? And none of that really
addresses the attachment piece,which is that I need to know
(19:18):
that we're still good, thatwe're still safely connected and
that this isn't doing harm toour bond.
Tara Boothby (19:25):
Yeah, and Jay and I, we were we're not physically
present with each other when Isend the text and he gives me a
call, but our bodies have 20years of CO regulation in our
history, and our bodies haveexperiences of repairing
ruptures. So for he and I,there's that, that easy relief,
(19:48):
yeah, so, oh, this is familiar.
And the circle of securitypeople when they talk about the
sensitivity. So our attachmentsensitivities is we're really
at. Asking, Will you meet me inmy unmetable place? Exactly? And
it's not just about a helmet,and it's not just about my kids
won't find their socks. It, itstarts to feel unbeatable after
(20:10):
a while.
Colette Fehr (20:13):
Yes, I love that language. This reminds me of
something that just came up in aromantic relationship, and even
the session that I just came outof just now, right? This is the
thing that some people whoreally haven't, not everyone's a
therapist, of course, and noteverybody's done this work, but
(20:35):
once you really understand theattachment piece and how
important it is just to bepresent and connected in the
moment that that's really thepower of what creates safety and
all these other moves are sodifferent. People try to
intellectualize, explain, removethemselves, argue, whatever it
(20:58):
is, all of those things. Reallymiss the MAR because when
someone's with you in theunmetable place, that's when you
co regulate, like I'm feelingsomething, it doesn't really
matter why it upset me. I'mtaking the risk to share with
you that I was upset because I'mtrusting that you at least I
(21:19):
have a chance that you'll meetme here, right? I'm being
courageous, and if I get backfrom you, no, that's not what
happened. Or let me explain toyou why, or you shouldn't be
upset about that, or you yell atme, get defensive or walk away,
then I am even more deeplywounded than I was by the
(21:41):
original thing, because I nowfeel alone and I feel that I
cannot be met in my unbeatableplace where I dared to show my
vulnerability,
Tara Boothby (21:53):
yeah, yeah. And I one of the chapters in my book I
titled like shame, blame andhumiliation, and there's these
nuances of when we we do thething that we hate, that we do
that behavior, and do I feelashamed? Do? Am I worried you're
(22:13):
going to blame me, or do I feelguilty or humiliated? And
there's different ways thelanguage around it getting
explicit to know if we say tosomebody, oh, you feel so
ashamed, it's like, well, thatmight not tune in and when we go
ahead,
Laura Bowman (22:32):
no, I just like thinking about an argument that
my husband and I had, and I'mjust thinking about this
unbeatable place. I'm justgrounding it a little bit and
and he had this reaction tosomething, and I had an
immediate reaction in my body.
And, and I'm a therapist so, andI'm an ifs therapist, so, like,
I knew a part of me wascompletely activated, and
(22:52):
there's a voice saying, Laura,if you let that part handle
this, this is just going to bebad. This is going to go really
badly and yet. And I triedreally hard to not let that part
like blend and take over, but itdid. And then I did the thing I
(23:13):
always do when I get thatfeeling, when I get that sort of
trigger from him, and Iimmediately thought, shit, why
was I not able to do thisdifferently even though I know
it's just the wrong move, and soI guess I'm asking both of you,
(23:33):
like, where do you go when youjust get sucked in to the same
move over and over when you knowit doesn't it's not going to be
helpful. And
Colette Fehr (23:45):
I think that does happen. That's human right. You
repair, you catch yourself asyou take a pause, you regulate
yourself, you come back and ownyour own, your move and say, you
know that part of me just gottriggered, and this is what I
was feeling. And Tara, I'm goingto let you answer this, because
you may see this differently,but this is how I see it, that
(24:07):
this is why repair is soimportant, because our nervous
system is its own wild animalthat will do what it wants at
times. And we're not always inour window of tolerance, but
that's why, you know, if we comeback and we acknowledge that in
a safe way, I do think thatprevents permanent damage, and
(24:28):
there's room in a healthyrelationship to be human,
Tara Boothby (24:31):
yeah, yeah. And, and you're alluding to it,
that's beautiful. And Laura, howyou say with ifs and the parts
work, parts of self. It'sinsight. And when we have
positive intention towardsourselves and positive intention
to the other person, we can lookinside and it's scary. I
(24:53):
remember when I it was like thethird or fourth time I took the
sensitivities the course I.
Activities from the circle ofsecurity folk and I went down to
Spokane like four times I had togo down there fly from Edmonton.
And the first time I was sittingin there with the cohort, Kent
Hoffman, was leading us throughjust this visualization and
(25:14):
about connecting with self. Andit was as if I was on the edge
of this cliff and I was lookingin this abyss, and i i It wasn't
God or anything, it was me. Isaid to myself, you can fall in.
Give yourself permission. Wow,but it's so scary. It's so scary
(25:35):
to get in there, especially whenwe don't know that it is okay to
be flawed. It is okay to beruinous at times, right? And I
had a friend who is strugglingwith their family, and I just
ran into them, and they, thisperson said to me, oh, you know,
I tried to reach out. And boy,was that a mistake. And you
(25:57):
know, here's this person who Ibelieve they're trusting their
own positive intention, andthey're like, I want my family,
so they reached out. And, youknow, it's so so sad, because
we're all just people likeeverybody else. Sometimes we're
good, sometimes we're bad, it'sjust heartbreaking. It's
(26:20):
heartbreaking how painfulrelationships are. Oh
Colette Fehr (26:26):
my god yes. And I have to say, listening to this
topic, I just to be vulnerableand real. I just had something
happen to me the other day witha very close friend. I feel like
I actually do even better. Now,in my romantic relationship,
taking these risks to bevulnerable, but in close
(26:46):
friendships, it can be hard forme. I haven't even though I have
many close friends, that's acontext where I'm not as likely
maybe to be vulnerable aboutsomething that hurts me for
whatever reason. And I washaving a conversation with a
friend about something veryintimate, and something
triggered some feelings in mewhere I just felt almost a
(27:10):
little rejected by somethingthat was said. And the thing
itself wasn't that big, but thefeeling it created, it hurt me,
and I decided in the moment totake the risk, to share it. And
I really felt that I wascommunicating for my adult self,
(27:32):
at least initially. And I wassaying, you know, I just want to
tell you some feelings that cameup, because this relationship is
important to me, and it's alittle scary to do this, but I
feel like we're close enoughthat I can tell you about my
inner world and that, you know,all I really want is for you to
just hear that this is thefeeling. And anyway, it did not
(27:54):
go well, and it did not go wellat all, and I got a reaction
that felt to me, defensive,explanatory, doubling down on
details, what was meant and notwent meant, what it why it
wasn't what I thought it was,and what my friend was saying
wasn't even what I thought itwas. So then, of course, it's
(28:17):
like the detail Olympics, right?
And I was feeling more and morerejected and hurt and alone as
the conversation continued. AndI had a part of me that thought,
wow, I just wish I hadn't saidanything at all and then, and
this is where I think, and thereason I'm sharing this too is
(28:41):
this is what's changed for meover the years and my own self
connection and self loveJourney, is that even as I was
in the midst of feeling sorejected, it did not feel good.
I'm not going to lie, it reallyfelt in my stomach. I felt sick,
and I felt sick about it allweekend, but what where I was
able to shift was I was able tobring my own loving presence to
(29:05):
myself, and I was able to say,you know, wow, Colette, you took
a risk to do something youtypically would never do. And
it's such a sign of my owngrowth and courage, just
interpersonally, that I evenwent there and it didn't land,
and I was able to feel reallyexperientially that I don't
(29:28):
think the person's reaction wasa lack of care for me, even
though that's how it felt. Ithink the person, my friend, got
activated into her own stuff,and I was able to feel that and
to have some empathy for that,and then also to really be with
my own younger inner child, myvulnerable self, and say, You
(29:48):
know what? That really hurt. Ireached for a connection. I
didn't get it. That person couldnot meet me in my unbeatable
place, but I still can be therefor me. And be proud of myself
for speaking up and know thatI'm growing and I can love
myself in that place. Yeah, andso it ended up being a painful
but also really positiveexperience for myself to
(30:12):
validate myself and extend thatloving care within
Laura Bowman (30:18):
I'm glad you told that story, Colette, because I
feel like we always think thatwe're going to be vulnerable and
we're going to take an emotionalrisk, and it's going to go so
well, but a lot of times it goesjust like you described, where
you're left having to take totalk to yourself, to parent
yourself, to say, I'm here foryou, and that's the step. I
(30:39):
don't think people are clear
Colette Fehr (30:41):
on a lot of the time, no, and also it felt like
absolute shit. I cannot evenbelieve at what I feel like. I
have a very I feel like I have apretty healthy relationship with
myself. I'm very emotionallyconnected. I'm a therapist. I
felt so wounded by theinteraction, the depth of the
pain even surprised. I mean, itreally hurt. It really, really,
(31:06):
really hurt, and I was okay. Butof course, who wants to do
things that could hurt? However,if we never take the risk to
connect, we know we'll never getit right. You've got so I it's
tough. Let me ask this question
Laura Bowman (31:23):
to Tara. I really want to, I really want to direct
this to like, I'm thinking oflike a client of mine, or many
of my clients, and they have notbeen raised in the circle of
security, right? They've hadterrible familial experiences
and like, abandonment andrejection and criticism and
content the whole the whole nineyards, and now they're
(31:45):
attempting, in their adult worldto find partners to heal these
patterns like tell us, give uswhat's the hopeful story on how
you can go from Never havinghealthy attachment to finding
healthy attachment. Yeah,
Tara Boothby (32:02):
you're talking about earning security. That's
what we do. So we we have ourown story, and we all have
relational trauma. We all havesome level of trauma. That's
what Colette's talking about. Asmy my trauma got activated here,
and that surprises me, because Iam emotionally safe with my
friend. Just to say one morething, I think, to Colette that
(32:25):
I it's, it's as if you trustedher positive intention, and that
if you were hearing the echoesinside of her, it's, it's as if
she's saying, Colette, you meanso much to me that I don't want
to get this wrong for you. Yeah,and I'm going to try really,
really hard to prove to you thatI didn't actually hurt you,
right? And you know that, andyou know that, right?
Colette Fehr (32:48):
Thank you for narrating it like that, though,
yeah.
Tara Boothby (32:51):
But then it's, it's it's scary. We get wobbly.
So when we we get married orfall in love, usually, like in
our 20s, those are therelationships where we're
scrambling more. It's like,Okay, I gotta find the one, or
that the false notions. Andwe're just babies. We're so
young, when we're in our 20s andwe try to find a life partner,
(33:14):
and it's pretty common thatthere's that urgency, then it's
changing a bit. Seems that theyoung people, they are more
promiscuous. I mean, we were allpromiscuous, but there's more of
this, like trial and error inthe 20s, and people are
considering marriage in their30s now, which is fine, it's
just noticing. But we, we wantsomebody who's going to be be
(33:39):
with us in a way that all of thepain that we've endured won't
occur. And so the beginning ofrelationships, that lust zone,
the crush zone, the honeymoon.
My friend is is recentlydivorced and started dating, and
he said, I'm just trying toenjoy the honeymoon and not over
analyze it, because when you youchoose in your 20s, and you're
(34:02):
not informed, often, many ofthese relationships don't last,
right? And then we have to pressplay again in our 40s or 50s and
and dating is always dating.
It's a anxiety provoking, it'san unknown, but clarifying our
(34:23):
wants in a partner is reallyimportant. This is, Who am I
looking for? Write it down. It'slike, what do I want in this
person? And the more we'reinformed about our own trauma
and our own attachment injuries,the pains that we've gone
through the relational trauma,the better we can sense into
(34:45):
ourselves and and and have thatlike love energy is the language
I use that we can have more ofthat charge and understand more
of that charge because makingit. Work is not about
compatibility. It's not aboutcompatibility. It's about
(35:06):
commitment. And though there'sthis old meme that's like these,
these two elderly people saying,In my day, we didn't throw
things away when they werebroken, we fixed them, but being
informed, you know, especiallypeople therapists who are
divorced. I have so manytherapist friends who are
divorced. These people are veryinformed. So the second marriage
(35:27):
is actually this beautiful placeto discover human relationship
in a fresh way. I've I've got alot of mistakes and a lot of
insight and a lot of of ofrecovery that I'm bringing into
this relationship now, ofmaturity,
Laura Bowman (35:46):
yeah, so it's important to do your own work,
yeah, especially the more themore injurious your family was,
or the more attachment baggageyou're bringing from previous
relationships. It's important toreally know how that impacted
you? Yes, and
Colette Fehr (36:03):
security is earned in the little moments. You know
it's it's really the smallestmoments when we're tempted to
continue to default to the wayswe had to protect ourselves to
survive those abandoning andrejecting moments earlier in
life. With that insight can comeawareness that, you know, this
(36:27):
behavior kept me safe then andnow, it's really keeping me from
having that intimacy and that itplays a role. It's not just what
your partner's doing to you,it's that and your feelings on
that are valid, but it's alsothe way you show up in the
little moment that's protective,that sends a scrambled signal to
(36:50):
your partner that then makesthem feel they have to protect,
and that cycle that we cocreate. So I really do that's
what we see in EmotionallyFocused couples therapy by
tuning into with compassion andnon judgmental awareness, there
are positive intentions, justlike you said, Tara, my friend,
(37:12):
I know her heart. I know sheloves me. It didn't feel like it
in the moment, and that's why itwas so painful, and how much of
that is her or me, or who cares?
It's it felt the way it felt.
And I had a choice, and I feltthe urge to, and I started to, I
started to react protectivelyand say, You know what? Forget
(37:35):
it. Fuck you. Forget it. I'm outof here. I'll never tell you
anything again, one and done.
There's a reason I never sharedat this level with you, and I'll
never fucking do it again. I canfeel that part of me right, and
I'm not saying it's totallyrepaired with her, but I shifted
into a place of, like, moreunderstanding and not reacting
(37:56):
in a way if I kick her away,then that's just gonna, it's
gonna produce another reactionthat further destroys our
relationship, instead, when andif, if there's ever a safe time
to talk about it, and I don'tknow there will be, I may just
say, you know, the way thatwent, I felt a little wounded,
and you know, I really, I knowyou had positive intentions. I
(38:20):
may even just leave it at that,but that's very different from
then saying, You know what? Fuckoff. I'm done with you.
Tara Boothby (38:27):
Yeah. It is, yeah.
And female relationships are,you know, this example is so
beautiful because it rings sotrue for female relationships,
we get this is how we get wobblywith each other, but when we
take a break, and there's aspace where we do take a break,
yeah, and there's, there'srelationships that we may never,
(38:48):
ever return to or shouldn't,right? And I will say that being
out of relationship is alwaysunnatural, and I mean even
people who it was so toxic, Ibelieve I'll grieve the loss of
those relationships for the restof my life. Agreed,
Laura Bowman (39:08):
yeah, and I love that you said that. I mean, I
just want to double click onthat, because I think you're
right. Like being out ofrelationship is unnatural, I
feel that sentiment too, andyet, there are some
relationships that are nearlyimpossible to participate in.
Yeah,
Tara Boothby (39:24):
and we get to like ourselves. If I don't like who I
am in this relationship, then Ineed space to consider. I need
to dive into myself and think,Okay, can I move into this
relationship in a different way?
Can I show up and be in mypositive intentionality with
this person. So when we presspause, my belief is, is when I
press pause, I am trying tocontemplate on or be present
(39:48):
with myself and evaluate, can Imove back in within love's kind,
you know, like, Can I move backin and have a volleying of.
Caring for each other, holdingeach other's circle. Can I, can
I live in a de escalated,balanced place? Can I stay in my
window of tolerance with you?
(40:11):
Can you stay in your window oftolerance with me? And that's
sort of the idea of, presspause. We're not going to stop
it. Let's press pause, and thenwe can, we can press play again
or not. Yeah,
Colette Fehr (40:26):
and we have to evaluate. And the more you know
yourself, the more connected youare to yourself, the more you
can really evaluate whatrelationships are worth it when
you really have to, sometimesthere is a hard line boundary
that has to be drawn, but evenwhen that's the case, there's
loss, because we're meant to bein relationship, and I'm with
(40:49):
you. I There are relationships Idon't have anymore, that it's
right that I don't have them,but there's still grief over
Tara Boothby (40:56):
it. There's grief and and then we participated in
the toxicness, yeah? And we, we,we weren't the true image of who
we are in those relationships.
Yeah. And so then when we havemore health and awareness, when
we just want to be insightfulabout ourselves and others, we
have better ability to look backand say it wasn't all them,
(41:19):
right, you know? And a marker ofsecure attachment, or the the
goal for earning security is, Ican look back on my past and see
it was good and bad. Yes, it wasgood about
Colette Fehr (41:33):
my part and own my part, yeah and own my part,
Tara Boothby (41:39):
yeah and not own somebody else's. Yes,
Colette Fehr (41:43):
yeah. You know, one more small thing on that
that I did, that it's funny, thereaction I got from some people
10 years after a relationshipended, it still bothered me so
much, the way I behaved thetoxicity that I participated in.
(42:05):
I was not healthy in the way Ishowed up in the relationship,
in its demise. Granted, a lot ofthings were happening that
pushed buttons, that pushed bigabandonment buttons, but it
bothered me so much the way Iacted that I actually had not
spoken to this person in 10years, and I didn't even know if
it was the same phone number.
And I wrote a message saying,you know, I just went it
(42:29):
probably seems crazy. Somepeople were like, You should not
have done that for like, fivereasons. Yeah, you know what? It
felt right to me. And so Ihonored my heart, and I just
said, Hey, I don't even know ifyou'll get this. It's been so
long, you don't even know I'm atherapist, but I just feel when
I look back on our relationship,there were so many good things,
(42:50):
but it got really unhealthy atthe end, and I want to just own
my part. I did not have goodrelationship skills. I still had
a lot of wounds I hadn't workedthrough, and the way I behaved
at times was really a big partof the problem. And I just want
to apologize for that and tellyou that I also thought there
was a lot of good and that Ihope your life's good. And you
(43:11):
know, I wasn't trying to readany response. Well, I did, but
what I got was, in a sense,unsatisfied, I think the hope,
in a way, I didn't do it to getanything, but the hope would
have been like, thank you somuch. You know, I too, played a
role. And like, I hope you'regood, too. I didn't get that. I
got Thank You for Your message.
(43:34):
I'm glad you're well, yeah,okay, fine. But you know what?
Then I thought, all right, well,you suck. Hey, and B, I'm still
glad, I'm still glad I did it,because it bothered me that I
didn't own my part, and I justwanted to say, like, I don't
actually need the response,because it's just a reflection
(43:57):
of that person's owndevelopment. I know they played
a role too, and I don't needthem to acknowledge it, but I
needed to acknowledge my partand just say that I'm sorry that
it got as like unhealthy andtoxic as it did. I've grown
since then I learned, and therewas a lot of good too, and I
wish you well. And I, in theend, I felt good about having
(44:17):
done it. Yeah,
Tara Boothby (44:19):
is brave. Very brave. I can be too. I get more
scared at the idea of thosethings. So I really respect
people who take those big risks.
And I think about them, and Iwonder, how did you do that? But
it's also, you know, like we canput so much emphasis on
forgiveness. I have I break thisdown in my book as well that,
you know, amends, forgiveness,repair, reconciliation. It's
(44:41):
really, there's a lot to it. Soyou didn't get reconciliation,
you weren't going to get repair,and you weren't looking for it.
You were doing an amends andapologizing, yes. And so it's,
it's huge when we notice whatyou did. Yeah. And your good
intention in reaching out,
Laura Bowman (45:04):
very scary, very, I think it shows that nuance.
But being able to, like, lean inand be flexible and say, like, I
know what I brought, yep, and Idon't expect, you know, you to
to meet me there. You know, it'slike, it is that flexibility,
and that's like what we'reworking for,
Colette Fehr (45:21):
right, right, psychological flexibility, yes,
and also, I think the more welove ourselves, the more we
mature, the more we work onourselves, which is a lifelong
journey, the more we do haverejection never feels good, but
the more bandwidth we have forsome of that, because it does
happen. It's part of the humanexperience. I didn't get the
(45:44):
ideal response that I would haveliked, but I have more ability
to absorb that than I would haveat another point where I might
not have taken the risk becausea rejecting response might have
felt too painful, and this iswhy I really do think,
regardless of what we've beenthrough, doing our own work is
(46:06):
so important, always that selfloving work,
Tara Boothby (46:10):
yes, yeah, yeah, repairing with our own self, you
know, like that, forgiveness,amends, repair, reconciliation
with our own Self that so muchhas the internal family systems
work, that's so much of theEmotionally Focused work, is I
love me again. I'm lovingtowards myself. I see I am
(46:30):
lovable, and then I'm loved aswell. And that's all that's
beautiful. But we, we, we livein such a culture where we don't
want to be inside of our bodies,and then we pop out into
behavior, and it becomesautomatic. The neural pathways
in our brain just move towardsthese behaviors and away from
what's uncomfortable. So true,yeah, and that's where the IFS
(46:55):
work that Lara does is is abeautiful model of
reconciliation inside ofoneself,
Laura Bowman (47:04):
yeah, and that's the work that people should
direct into like, you know,like, I'm thinking of a client
right now who, you know, has hadterrible security, family stuff,
and has had her like, ruinous isa word you used ruinous
relationships. But his instinctis, I'm gonna go find another
partner. But I can guarantee youthat he does not feel lovable
(47:27):
like he would say he doesn'tfeel lovable. It's like you want
to say, like, pause like, let's,like, push the pause button,
yeah, and let's do a like, alittle like, we gotta go inside.
And he has to repair with selfand begin to find self love
before he's going to be anattachment fit for anybody. It
doesn't matter if he has themost, if he has Florence
(47:48):
Nightingale, you know? And it'san attachment form, right? If
he's not got that self lovewell. And
Colette Fehr (47:57):
I mean, I think so many of the at least in my
practice, I see very few people,and they're all wonderful,
loving, lovable people, but whofeel lovable and good enough
truly. I mean, I think these arethe core human wounds we incur,
and the promise of the journeyof being more embodied and being
(48:23):
in relationship and creatingsafer relationships, is coming
to feel that we are indeed goodenough, that we are lovable by
virtue of breathing, and I thinkthat's out of reach right now
for so many people right that wewe've been rejected, and We've
been abandoned in waysthroughout our lives, and it's
left this feeling of, I'm notlovable, or maybe there's
(48:45):
something wrong with me thatthis happens to me, and then,
like you're saying, Tara, we'reout there with these behaviors.
We can't sit in it long enoughto work on it and heal it so we
never get to the core wound.
Tara Boothby (48:59):
Yeah, so we'll use this language of a stress pile
up. When we consider our ownselves, there's so much going on
that it's this big old pile upproblems, and it feels stressful
and insurmountable. How do I getin there and do this? So then a
lot of us shy away from thework. The best definition of
repair I've come across is fromthe circle of security, and they
(49:23):
say repair is, I am here, I knowyou need me, and we're going to
work this out. It's beautiful.
That's what you did when you'vereached back to that old
relationship. Is you're like,I'm here. I know you needed me
now. I didn't know it then, andwe can work this out. We're not
going to be friends, but youknow, we could meet each other
(49:45):
in this, that old, unbeatablemoment, yes, and, and probably
because you've that's how youwere on the inside Colette that
you were in this, this positionof your feet were on the earth.
Yes, and you were in your windowof tolerance, yes. So when you
got the rejection, you're like,oh, same old, same shit,
(50:05):
different day. Yeah, movingright along, yep,
Colette Fehr (50:11):
yep. And I could absorb it and not take it as a
reflection of my lovabilityworthiness, right? I didn't. It
didn't land like that. It felt atinge of hurt, a tinge of
disappointment, and then also,you know what? I did this to
make an amends to this person.
For my part, I've done that. Ifeel proud of myself for being
(50:32):
mature enough to do that, andI'm okay inside, even though it
felt a little hurtful anddisappointing, I'm still okay.
Hasn't damaged my view of self,yeah, but you
Laura Bowman (50:47):
wouldn't have done it had you not been able to
tolerate what was
Colette Fehr (50:52):
no and I wouldn't have done it, you know? I mean,
I didn't do it till 10 yearslater, right? I hadn't reached a
place that I
Tara Boothby (50:59):
could do that, yeah, yeah. And it's hard to
know, like I just I saw somebodyrecently who I expect I'll never
see again, and we are out ofrelationship. And I really try
to live with such forgiveness inmy heart for people and and love
them. And sometimes there's somepeople where I have to forgive
(51:22):
and love them from afar. Yeah,so because, and when I saw this
person, I was like, Oh, I do notlike you, and I do not like me,
I felt a big old fuck youinside, and the word hate was
floating around. I was raisedyou don't have that word inside
of you, but I I I live with suchlove now that I felt such
(51:44):
intense rage and I was okay withthat I'm not going to live in
that moment. Right To me, it's ameasure of terror, like you are
not super human enough to bearound people. My the risk is I
will have a trauma response,then right if I'm in that
(52:05):
intense rage activation, andthen I fight, flight, fawn,
freeze, whatever I'm going to dois not the truth of who I am and
when I'm in my fight, flight,freeze, fawn reaction, that's
when my brain is at risk ofgoing into autopilot, and I'll
do behaviors that are the truthof who I am, and then I'm not in
(52:26):
my body and I'm not in charge.
Laura Bowman (52:29):
And that's the whole thing, right? Is learning
what those what those triggersare, and what states you get put
in by certain relationships, andnoticing and like you're saying,
most people do not live at thatlevel. They're not in their
bodies. It's so quick, it's soautomatic. They're not
registering all of that, and
Colette Fehr (52:49):
that's why, as I know, we have to wrap up. This
went so fast, I feel like wecould talk for 12 hours about
all
Tara Boothby (52:55):
of this. Let's do it. Let's just have a sleepover.
Yes,
Colette Fehr (52:58):
I love it, but you need to come to Florida because
we cannot handle I agree. Iagree, but it really is like I
think what we we're saying istakeaways here. Don't worry so
much about your attachment styleor figuring it out. Really work.
Do the work to get to knowyourself. Be more embodied. Have
(53:20):
less judgment for yourself. It'sa process, and take risks, small
risks that feel doable, tocreate more secure responses and
more secure bonds in yourrelationships. By the way, you
respond, even little, tinythings, right? If you have a
reaction, it's human. You'regoing to yell at your kids,
(53:42):
you're going to fight with yourhusband in front of your kids,
you're going to be an asshole.
It's inevitable. We all do,right? And that's okay, but you
can rap out of the field, yes,and come back and say, You know
what? I totally let myfrustration overwhelm me. I know
I tell I mean, I have to saythis to my husband all the time
because I'm very Italian andexpressive, and I think I'm
(54:05):
being so soft. And meanwhile,I'm like this, like a whirling
dervish, and his alarm bells aregoing off, and I'll come back
and say, You know what, I gotreally feisty there for a
minute, and I'm sure that didn'tfeel good. I'm sorry for the way
I spoke to you. I'm sorry I gotso annoyed, right? And then most
of the time, that small thingalone has so much power to take
(54:28):
us from a disconnected placewhere we're going to spiral into
like, Okay, thank you forapologizing, right? Just like
what you describe with yourhusband. So you don't have to be
a therapist, but do sometherapy. I mean, I really do
think that's a takeaway. Andobviously this is not self
promotion, since most of youlistening couldn't even come to
(54:49):
us just by virtue of laws andlocation, but it's worth it to
spend some time working onyourself and loving yourself and
know. I love what you said aboutloved, lovable and loving, yeah,
that we're all that way. AndTara, before we let you go, can
you share with us the full nameof your book, where it's
(55:11):
available, and then how ourlisteners can find you on social
media or get in touch with you?
Tara Boothby (55:17):
Yeah, that's beautiful. The book is love and
loves energy. So there's mybeautiful book and my love,
yeah, my dear friend did the artfor it, for this book, and it's
just the even the image is sopowerful that people like to
just look at it. Or when they'rereading, they said, I just kept
flipping back to the front andthe cover to see if, if you were
(55:40):
going to get to the place whereI hope you are going to get to.
So love and love. Yeah, love andloves. Energy. How attachment,
science proves that lovenurtures our biological nature,
impacts our positive view ofourselves, of others and of God,
and teaches us all how to love.
I am on social media. I lovesocial media. I love it. I love
trying to be a positive oasis onthe journey of social media and
(56:05):
our company here. So one of ourpages is sojourn psychology on
Instagram, we have a sojournpsychology YouTube, where we put
something up once a week and andthen Tara Boothby, so we'll make
sure we have my proper name andfind it on social media. I love
it. We
Colette Fehr (56:25):
will include that in the show notes so everyone
can follow you. And I think yourbook is wonderful. The cover art
is beautiful, and I think thisis stuff that everybody needs
access to. So thank you forwriting the
Tara Boothby (56:40):
book. Yeah, thank you, and thank you for having
me. Thank
Colette Fehr (56:43):
you so much for your time, Tara, we appreciate
you, and thank you to all of ourlisteners. Sure you learned a
lot today about attachment andlove and love ability, and we
hope that you enjoyed thisepisode of insights from the
couch. We'll see you next timeyou
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