June 23, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of Investing in Accessibility, we sit down with Larry Goldberg—media pioneer, policy shaper, and trusted advisor to the next generation of accessibility innovators. Larry shares his remarkable four-decade journey, from launching closed captioning at WGBH to shaping landmark accessibility legislation, leading corporate accessibility at Yahoo, and now mentoring mission-driven startups and nonprofits.
Hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher dig into Larry’s philosophy of “developed for people with disabilities, shared with the world,” exploring how startups can scale impact through inclusive design and thoughtful business models. This episode is packed with lessons on startup resilience, product-market fit, universal access, and the power of inclusive innovation.
Whether you’re an entrepreneur, investor, corporate leader or advocate, this conversation with Larry is essential listening.
Links & Resources:
Larry Goldberg: LinkedIn
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
(00:29):
Hey, so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility and
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and I got my co-host, Chris
Maher.
Man, how you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:43):
I'm good, Kelvin.
It's good to see you and to bewith you again, my friend.
How have you been?
Kelvin Crosby (00:48):
I'm doing good.
I haven't seen you for oneminute.
Chris Maher (00:51):
I know, I know we took a little brief hiatus
because we were both doing sometraveling, but it's good to see
you bud.
Kelvin Crosby (00:57):
Yep, I'm super excited that as we get closer to
some of the launches aboutsharing what that's going to be,
so to hint people, some goodthings coming in the future.
But let's get into today'sguest.
This guy, he's a sensei?
I'm trying to think, wow, ooh,is this going to be curious?
(01:19):
I'm curious.
So tell us a little bit aboutour guest.
Chris Maher (01:23):
Sure.
So I had the good fortune ofbeing introduced to our guest
today through a mutual contact,probably about a year and a half
or so ago, and that was justsuch a wonderful, serendipitous
moment for me, because our guestis a accessibility sensei.
Someone has coined that for him, he did not coin that himself.
(01:44):
And a master connector.
He has been so generous and sokind to me as I've gotten the
Samaritan Fund off the groundand we became fast friends and
continue to collaborate and talkvery often, and so, without
further ado, let's welcome ourfriend, Larry Goldberg.
Larry, welcome to the show.
Larry Goldberg (02:03):
Hello Kelvin, hello Chris, thanks for inviting
me.
Chris Maher (02:06):
It's our pleasure, it's great to have you here
today.
And so, as you know, Larry, youand I had dinner in New York a
week or so ago and we're talkingabout what topics we might talk
about when you come on thepodcast.
And I think the first thing weshould start off with, because I
think your background is veryunique, around your career and
(02:26):
lived experience over the lastseveral decades as it relates to
disability and accessibility.
And you have a reallywonderfully unique background in
my mind which has led into yourwork in more recent years,
which is very focused onadvising and mentoring startups.
And so that's going to be thesecond half of our conversation,
or probably the bulk of ourconversation today.
(02:46):
We're going to dig into kind ofthe startup environment and
really pick Larry's brains onhis experience mentoring and
working with startups and Ithink some of the kind of the
takeaways, the good, the bad andmaybe the ugly of, you know,
being an entrepreneur with astartup in this space and just
the trials and tribulations andthe landscape you have to
(03:08):
navigate and Larry has a wealthof wisdom and insights there.
But let's first, Larry, startwith your background, both
personal and work over the lastseveral decades, and if you
could share that with ourlisteners that'd be great.
Larry Goldberg (03:21):
Absolutely.
And in terms of the term sensei, I don't want to be a cultural
appropriator, but from the FarEast and Japan a sensei is a
teacher and nothing more thansomeone who can share what they
know, particularly in themartial arts, which I do not do.
But I started in this worldbecause and so many people come
(03:41):
into the accessibility fieldfrom so many directions.
I started because I love media.
Started all the way back injunior high I was making films
with Super 8 cameras and thenstepped up to video and my
intention all along was to be inthe field of media, filmmaking
and television, radio and Iprogressed through that and I
(04:04):
got jobs as a freelancer.
I was on radio, I was a discjockey if you can hear my voice,
of course, but mostly aroundjazz and eventually got to the
point where I really.
I was living in Boston.
I wanted to work for theunbelievable talented people at
(04:25):
WGBH public broadcasting premierstation.
And I tried to get a job therefor years and I'd send in
resumes, I'd try to makeconnections.
Couldn't get anything.
So I moved to New York, starteddoing some freelancing in New
York and one day in the New YorkTimes, when they used to run
Help Wanted ads, this littletiny six-point type said WGBH
(04:48):
looking for a manager of theirclosed captioning operation in
New York City.
Well, having gone to theUniversity of Southern
California and learned about TVtechnology, I actually knew what
closed captioning was, which isthe embedding of data in a
television signal to turn audiointo words.
And I applied for the job andbasically, in short, they said
(05:10):
do you know what closedcaptioning is?
I said yes.
They said you're hired.
Chris Maher (05:14):
Larry, how many years ago was that?
Larry Goldberg (05:16):
Oh my God, forty .
Nineteen eighty five.
So yeah, just hitting fourdecades.
Kelvin Crosby (05:24):
I wasn't even a thought back then.
Larry Goldberg (05:27):
And from there, as far as I knew, I didn't know
anyone in the disabilitycommunity.
Obviously I did, but I wasn'taware of it.
I started learning all aboutthe world of deafness, people
who are hard of hearing, andwords on screen.
I then moved to Boston,actually take over the caption
center, which is the operationthere, where captioning began
(05:49):
with Julia Child's French Chef.
And from there also then tookon the descriptive video service
providing audio description forTV shows, and learned about the
blindness world.
All of this just because I lovemedia and it frustrated me that
not everyone had the tools toboth create and to enjoy media.
(06:11):
I was like we got todemocratize this.
Around the time I was hittingan anniversary there,
The web started taking over anddigital media became paramount.
And we realized we needed amechanism for addressing these
new technologies and some of thepublic policy around it.
(06:32):
So, with tremendous support fromthe Corporation for Public
Broadcasting, which is extremelyimportant today, they provided
a grant to create the NationalCenter for Accessible Media, an
R&D group.
We took on R&D in the field ofstandards development,
developing tools, figuring outhow to make movies and theaters
(06:54):
accessible and networking likecrazy with the disability
community.
And had the chance to getinvolved in legislation in
Congress.
First the TV Decoder CircuitryAct in 1990, which I helped
draft, and then the Telecom Actin 96, which required captions
pervasively.
(07:14):
And then the 21st CenturyCommunications and Video
Accessibility Act, which hadmassive impact, passed in 2010.
I was at the White House withCongressman Markey at the time,
stevie Wonder, so many greatpeople, obama signed that bill.
The FCC then asked me to chairthe subcommittee that would
write the regs under that law,which was a blast.
(07:37):
And within not a long period oftime, Yahoo reached out to me
and said now you've done it.
You want to come on board andhelp us comply with this new law
that you helped make happen?
And I said, absolutely, lookthe impact and scale you could
have with a huge corporationlike that, and so I joined Yahoo
.
I eventually became head ofaccessibility at Yahoo and found
(08:01):
all kinds of opportunities toreally scale up.
Chris Maher (08:05):
That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that,Larry.
My gosh, just the arc of yourexperience, really from the
early days of accessibility andthen all the way through to many
of the major policy andregulations that have been in
place, is incredible.
Kelvin, do you have any initialquestions for Larry and his
background before we get intosome startup-y?
Kelvin Crosby (08:27):
I mean I thought it was interesting you brought
up the 21st centurytelecommunication act.
I mean, That was my firstlegislation bill I ever worked
on and I was like when youbrought down, like hey, we have
something in common.
Even though we didn't worktogether.
You probably worked with Moseand and Haben and some of those
individuals.
They were really heavilyinvolved in the actual push of
(08:49):
it.
Larry Goldberg (08:49):
When I was at WGBH, Haben Girma, first
deafblind graduate from HarvardLaw, was across the river and
her interpreter contacted me andsaid we need to develop some
technology so this woman couldactually attend classes, and we
helped hack together some techfor Haben Girma to help her at
that time.
Kelvin Crosby (09:08):
That's awesome.
Larry Goldberg (09:09):
And I should mention also, you talked about
lived experience.
As you notice, none of this ofmy story was really about my own
personal disability, which Ididn't realize I had until my
mid-50s, when I was missingalmost everything that was going
on in meetings and I was like,oh, I hang out with deaf people
(09:30):
all this time and all of asudden I lose my hearing.
What happened there?
And so now I'm a hearing aiduser and I am absolutely having
the lived experience.
Yep
Kelvin Crosby (09:40):
I mean, and I think that's something that's
really interesting in regards tolike, as we start developing
products and services and aslegislation starts going through
.
I mean, that was one thing whenthat act went into play, we
didn't see how, in some ways,how difficult it was going to be
to implement it in thedeaf-blind community.
(10:01):
We knew how we were going to doit in the deaf community pretty
much, and also how we weregoing to implement it in the
blind community, but thedeaf-blind community was one of
those, nobody understood thatNobody.
The people in the deaf-blindcommunity we were super excited,
but how were we going to reallyscale this?
(10:21):
And that was something that Imean we've come a long way since
then when that came out.
But I was involved in a lot ofthe I- connect program stuff and
all that stuff and I just findI'm curious from your
perspective, as this, as thatinitiative went into play and
this is not really on our agenda.
But I am really curious and Ithink this comes to the idea of
(10:44):
access for all is what issomething that you learned from
that initiative and realized,all right, we need to create
these legislations, but alsoreally looking at how do we
create this universal access forall.
Larry Goldberg (11:00):
So yeah, the challenges, the technological
challenges, particularly arounddeafblindness, were a steep hill
to climb.
Luckily there were some veryactive people from that
community.
An employee at WGBH had Ushersyndrome and his name, Carl
Richardson, someone whocontinues to teach me every day,
(11:20):
helped us understand what wecould do with technology that
could address those issues aswell.
And every new challenge thatcomes, of course, trying to make
media accessible for peoplewith cognitive disabilities is a
major challenge.
today.
We've got a great community ofpeople who want to take it on,
(11:41):
ready to grapple, and luckily alot of it is people who are
experiencing those barriersthemselves and somehow we come
up with solutions each time.
Kelvin Crosby (11:51):
One of the things, that's one of the
biggest things that came out ofthis initiative was we had to
figure it out and then, like mycompany, our whole focus is
looking at deafblind first andthen innovating from there.
And I think that's the thing isbecause I live that life
deafblindness I find myselfstruggling to get access to
(12:16):
information or details, but atthe same time, like all right
solving those problems.
Chris Maher (12:22):
So, Larry, let's transition a little bit.
So you have this wonderfulcareer that was what almost 30
years at the television station.
You then got into some really,really important policy work.
Then you move on to thecorporate world, some time at
Verizon, a long stretch at Yahoo, and now you've transitioned to
working with startups.
How did that transition takeplace, going from that corporate
(12:42):
and policy world into thestartup area?
Larry Goldberg (12:50):
Yeah, I think a lot of my career has been guided
by luck, fluke and randomness.
And whenever young people askfor what my career path was, I
was like, oh, I have no idea.
Very zigzag.
So when I left Yahoo now threeyears ago, I thought I would
start a consulting business,like many have, consulting with
major corporations as they godown their journey towards
accessibility.
(13:11):
And I built a major website,fully accessible, and I realized
, as I was about to launch it, Idon't want to do that, I don't
want to be hustling,particularly with companies who
may or may not be all bought in.
And around that very same time,I started getting these people,
young people, reaching out tome with this classic line, hey,
(13:32):
can I pick your brain?
And at this point I picturedthese birds having eaten
basically my entire brain away,nothing left.
But I loved what they were doing, I loved their energy, I loved
some of the paths they weregoing down and I thought, oh, I
might be able to help some ofthese folks.
(13:53):
Interestingly enough, most ofthe people I started working
with were women, and I can'tnecessarily explain why that
was, not all, but many.
And I found out that women inthese startups around the field
of accessibility, had some ofthe right energy and the vision
and the decision making andresilience to really take things
(14:17):
and get it off the ground.
And so, as more and more ofthese people would reach out to
me through social media, Istarted taking some of them on
as paid clients, others as anequity advisor and other just
because, hey, I was fascinatedby what they're trying to pull
off and maybe I could help.
Chris Maher (14:35):
I'm really glad you mentioned the work with the
female founders, because thatwas something that I recalled
when we first met, that you weretalking about how you were
working with a group of femalefounders, which is awesome.
So, Larry, thank you for that,and it's I know, I know from
talking to many of thoseentrepreneurs that you work with
that the value you bring to thetable is immense.
(14:56):
That lived experience you havewith work and all those years of
working in accessibility ishelpful in so many ways, and so
let's dig into that a little bit, because you, I know, have some
strong feelings around startupsand developing innovative
technologies, around assistivetech, disability tech.
But let's dig into that.
What should entrepreneurs, whatare some of the things they
(15:17):
really should be thinking aboutin that early stage as they're
developing assistive tech anddisability tech?
Larry Goldberg (15:24):
Yeah, I have to issue a caveat here.
I'm approaching this from apoint of view that started with
closed captioning and today, aswe all know, closed captioning
is pervasive and I don't knowthat any of us ever really
expected the widespread use ofclosed captioning in so many
communities.
(15:44):
Some people talk about the curbcut effect.
I talk about the closed captioneffect.
And the idea that closedcaptions in essence became
mainstream.
And you hear the data.
We heard Anne-Marie Killiantalk about 60 to 80 percent of
Netflix users are turning oncaptions, and so when I talk to
(16:04):
an entrepreneur starting a newbusiness, I always want to ask
them, aside from the importantcore audience you develop your
tech for, who else could benefit?
What is the expanse and scaleyou could reach?
Because investors are wantingto know your numbers and so how
(16:25):
big a market can you really be?
And if you want to start withthe notion of developed for
people with disabilities sharedwith the world?
And that's what I tend to askthese folks, because they
generally come at it with aheavy mission from their own
personal disability or a familymember or friend, and I love
(16:48):
their ideas and I say OK, andwho else might benefit?
And how big?
And I'm learning all the termsfrom your investment world,
what's your total addressablemarket?
Could it possibly be everyone?
So let's think about that.
And that's where I do spendtime with some of these startups
(17:09):
, to think how might we exploitwhat you've developed for blind
people, deaf people, people withmobility disabilities, and say
"yes, and.
And I always refer back to thiswonderful story about the OXO
Good Grips kitchen utensils.
And it was developed by ahusband and wife.
(17:32):
The wife had arthritis.
They are the best kitchenutensils anywhere and they never
advertised that they're goodfor people with disabilities.
But boy, do people withdisabilities know.
And they're big and they'resuccessful.
And what else could you do tobe an Oxo in your field is what
I tend to ask these folks.
Kelvin Crosby (17:53):
I think it's really interesting that, as you
kind of brought up thecaptioning and all that stuff, I
think we're seeing a trend inthe Investing in Accessibility
podcast that where the growth ishappening in access for people
with disabilities is in theuniversal access.
(18:17):
And, as you were talking about,can you go get more than just
your population that you'retrying to serve?
Can you help another populationin looking at that effect and
being able to create access in away where every person that
(18:40):
could benefit from your productor service or software or
whatever, they can really gainthat access?
And I think that's reallyimportant that we see is that
we're seeing this trend.
Oh, I don't know if it's even atrend, it's a movement that is
becoming a firm foundation asyou start innovating products
(19:01):
and services and programs anddifferent things like that.
We're starting to see this.
So, Chris, why don't you divein a little bit more with Larry
here on where are we seeingeverything going?
Chris Maher (19:17):
Great question.
I think a phrase, Larry, youjust used that I think is really
, really helpful, is developedfor people with disabilities but
shared with the world, oruseful to the world.
And for venture investors,you're right, part of it is how
big is this opportunity?
What is that total addressablemarket?
(19:38):
And we did a podcast episodeseveral weeks ago around Exit
Business versus LifestyleBusiness and these are some
decisions that entrepreneurshave to make.
Do they want to stay small,grow organically, be relatively
self-funded, not take on thatprofessional investment where
there are certain expectationsthat are now put upon you and
(19:59):
your business, largely aliquidity event.
And those are things I don'tthink entrepreneurs think about
enough or think aboutthoughtfully enough in that
early stage.
And so having an advisor and amentor like you who is pushing
them to think about these typesof questions, which are
critically important, I think issuper valuable to them.
(20:22):
I think, as it relates toinnovation, there are, I guess I
think about it, a couple ways.
A term that is used kind of intechnology in general is kind of
like like dual use.
So hey, it's, it's being built,say, for this one specific
population, but it's also goodfor another population, or the
broader, the broader community.
(20:42):
I think that's where we needmore companies that bring that
to the table in the disabilitysector, these early stage
startups, because that's where Ithink we can have some big
outcomes or exits.
And we need a few of those,right, like we need some
unicorns, we need some bigacquisitions, we need an IPO,
because I think that's going towake up the professional
(21:04):
investment world, the privatecapital, where we don't have
nearly enough in this sectorright now, and so we do need
some of that.
I do think there are a numberof companies that can be very
successful being more focused ona specific area of disability,
say like a Be My Eyes type oftype of company.
I think they can still do verywell and have have a very good
(21:26):
outcome for more traditionalventure capital investors.
But, Larry, are there anyexamples that you've seen in
your advising and mentoring workthat stand out for you, either
way, that had a great idea butlike it just wasn't big enough
and so it stayed kind of morefocused and small.
Or a company that started outwith a specific, you know, an
(21:48):
idea for a specific part of thecommunity that over time they
realized oh my god, this, thisis actually has a much broader
application.
Larry Goldberg (21:56):
Yeah, definitely both sides of it and all in
between.
You know, having come from somany years in the world of
non-profits, one of the biggestissues we always would talk
about is sustainability.
We're doing great by ourmission, but are we going to be
able to keep going?
In the for-profit world, it'sbeyond sustainability, it's
scale and growth.
And in the business world,certainly if you're taking
(22:20):
outside investment, you reallyneed to prove you can do that.
So one of the companies I amvery deeply involved in is
involved with adding signlanguage to movies, streaming
movies.
They're called Sign Up Media.
The brilliant idea of a16-year-old founder, incredible,
a great disruptor, and she feltlike you can click on a button
(22:44):
and get captions on your Disneyor Netflix movies, why can't I
click on a button and get signlanguage?
Brilliant.
She reached out to me to pickmy brain.
I got very involved, still am,and I also think about, all
right, what could spin out fromthis.
So you've got a stream of media, it's got audio, it's got video
(23:05):
, it's often audio description,subtitles in 100 languages.
Now we want to add anotherstream of sign language embedded
within it.
What other things could we doto enhance media that would take
off on the technology we'redeveloping?
That would be not just for signlanguage users but for other
(23:26):
disabilities or other people whoare underserved.
And so we are heading in thatdirection, looking at what other
markets this technology we'vedeveloped could really address.
There's another company.
It's a great story.
Unfortunately, they're on theback burner right now.
This woman who has low visionhad developed a concept for
(23:48):
people who are at theirworkplace just being bombarded
with texts and emails and Slackand all day long, just
distracted, all day long, andshe had a way of pulling
together all of these strandsfor the enterprise workplace to
help people focus, but make surethat your boss can get through
(24:08):
when necessary.
She called her company Gashido,and I thought that's some
Japanese term.
I don't know what Gashido isand she said, no, actually it
stands for "get shit done.
And I thought, oh, I am in 100%just for that.
And that was the kind ofdevelopment that absolutely
(24:32):
could go far beyond the originaltarget market, people with
cognitive disabilities orattention deficit disorder, and
right now she's in stealth mode,but I love that idea.
Chris Maher (24:45):
Yeah, I think those are two great examples.
Larry, in your experienceworking with startups, are there
any, I guess, kind of mistakesor pitfalls or traps that you
see they tend to fall into thatare easily avoidable?
Kind of like thoseself-inflicted wounds, poor
(25:20):
decisions early on that you seeconsistently that you wish you
could tell all early stageentrepreneurs?
Larry Goldberg (25:21):
Yeah, some basic good business practices.
It's so basic, but I actuallyexperience some startups who are
not responsive.
Don't get right back to you.
Or I provide an introduction tosomeone important like Mr Chris
Maher or our good friend GinaKline, and then I never hear
from them again.
You've got to keep your loopclosed.
You absolutely got to keep intouch with everyone, because you
(25:42):
never know what's going to turninto a piece of gold.
And so I think some of it isjust behavioral, but certainly
others are sort of obvious.
We all know this.
Talk to your users, and I knowKelvin has run into this I'm
sure.
Some brilliant college studentinvents something.
(26:03):
This would be great for blindpeople, absolutely.
Oh well, have you talked toblind people?
No, no, no, we plan to as soonas we have our MVP.
Well, I hope we're done withthat.
That is just so backwards, butsure I've run into that over and
over again.
Kelvin Crosby (26:21):
I mean, I think that's one of my biggest pet
peeves is if you haven't doneyour market research, why bother
to start?
It's great to have a great idea, but if you haven't done your
market research, don't start,because you're going to put a
lot of energy, because I'm I'mat the point in my company where
(26:41):
I'm ready to be done.
I'm ready to be done.
I'm over it.
But I know that my marketresearch is solid and I know
that I'm going to be okay, and Ijust go back and listen to
those testimonials and that'swhat keeps me moving, knowing
that I have a product that keepsme motivated to keep moving
(27:02):
forward.
And I think that's something soimportant is that do your
market research.
See that there's even aninterest that they want your
product, and I think that is soimportant.
Chris Maher (27:20):
I think that speaks to what you're both talking
about is product market fit, andthat starts with talking to the
end user.
Right?
And I think that is criticallyimportant.
I think a lot of, and thisisn't just in the disability
sector, I think it'sentrepreneurship across the
board.
You're right Larry, you'relike, oh, I think this is a
great idea, people are going tolove this.
But they don't go out andactually speak to the end
customer.
Larry Goldberg (27:41):
Who is your real customer?
A lot of these startups havetotal buy- in from the end user
and the disability community, aparent of a deaf child,
whatever, but they don't intendto sell it to those people.
They want to sell it to theenterprise.
The enterprise might say nicewords about how they want to
help the poor disabled person,but that's not going to make
(28:03):
their decision.
So put yourself in the mindsetof this big corporate chieftain
who can write checks and reallywants to work with you, but
you've got to make it reallyeasy for that person, because
that's where your business modelis focused.
Most of what I talk to arepeople who are looking at B2B,
(28:25):
and so one early lesson Ilearned was one company who's
doing tremendously well now wasselling themselves on the
quality of the output that theirusers loved how good and clean
the output was, and they wouldcharge a little bit more.
They were in a competitiveindustry, but they were all in
on quality.
(28:46):
And I actually signed a majorcontract with them when I was at
Yahoo.
Recently they said they don'tpush as much on quality as they
do on workflow, because thecompanies they're selling to
just want ease of operation.
They want to disrupt everything.
Maybe they don't really evenwant to buy something that helps
(29:06):
people with disabilities.
Make it easy, one click, greatportal, order your whatever
service it is and move on, andyou will sell a lot better to
these big enterprises if youjust make their lives easier.
Chris Maher (29:23):
Larry, it's a really interesting point you
bring up and it reminds me ofthis past year I was a mentor
for an accelerator program atthe NYU Business School called
Endless Frontier Labs.
I was in the digital healthgroup.
But what was so eye-opening forme was there was a session
where the startups were givingtheir pitch, it was the
(29:45):
beginning of the program.
It's the full academic year,but at the beginning of the
program they do like an initialpitch and then we mentor them
over the course of the academicyear, and these are startups,
not student-led companies, andthen at the end they redo the
pitch day.
And up front this company wastalking about the quality, like,
oh, we're better than thecompetition, and they put up the
little magic quadrant ofGartner and they were in the
(30:08):
upper right quadrant of that.
And someone, one of the mentorswho works in industry, not an
investor, works in industry, andit was something related to
hospitals.
He said, "hey, that's great andit sounds like you are better
than anything that's in themarket.
But that's not what we evaluateon.
We evaluate on what would workbest for us, in our environment,
(30:32):
in our processes and workflow.
"So many times he said we don'tchoose the best solution, we
choose the best solution for us,and I think that speaks to what
you were just saying, Larry.
The other thing I think thistouches on, and Larry I'd love
to get your take on this, whenyou start talking about product
market fit and going out andtalking to the end customer and
(30:54):
the user, two things come tomind for me.
One is about including thecommunity.
So build it with us, not for us, that whole concept.
But also then it gets into theconcept of universal design,
accessible design, human-centered design, inclusive
(31:17):
design.
It goes by a lot of differentkind of monikers these days, but
I'd love to get your take onwhere your thoughts are on that,
on inclusive or universaldesign.
Larry Goldberg (31:23):
Yeah, back a number of years ago because what
I was trying to do basicallywas make media universally
accessible through captioningand description.
I didn't want to use the termAT assistive technology because
you know that's a Brailledisplay, that's, that's JAWS,
that's a separate add on youhave to buy.
(31:44):
So I tried to disseminate theconcept Accessible Mainstream
Technology.
Build it in.
Just make it part of theoperating system or the software
as is, and it makes everyone'slives so much better.
It might also mean that yourstandalone device is no longer
(32:04):
needed and you got to realizeyou might put yourself out of
business if you do it right.
Look at the iPhone today.
It's got like 100 accessibilityfeatures built in for free.
It's kind of hard to argueagainst that.
It probably means somecompanies no longer have much of
a market.
So the idea of trying to aimtowards a universally available
(32:30):
or usable technology might meanyou're going to be absorbed into
the mainstream, which you knowin some ways is really a good
thing.
Especially now that I've beenpromoting, with many others,
this concept of "nothing aboutus without us.
To me is wrong.
It's "nothing without us,period, because everything is
(32:52):
about us all the us's whetheryou have a disability or not.
So when you're trying to designa new technology, think about
the amazing diversity of all thedifferent people, because
that's who you want to use it,and you can call it universal if
you want, or you can just callit good design.
Chris Maher (33:12):
You know, Larry, I guess, as we wrap up, what would
be, I guess two questions.
One would be what are your toptwo or three pieces of advice
for startup entrepreneurs inthis space?
And then I guess the last bigquestion is and you might have
just answered it a little bit,but what do you think is out
(33:34):
there on the horizon that isgoing to play a significant role
going forward as it relates toassistive tech and accessibility
?
Larry Goldberg (33:43):
Well, I think you don't have to tell an
entrepreneur it's going to betough.
I think they know that.
So to advise that they need tobe resilient, that if you fail
49% of the time you're actuallywinning because 51% says you're
(34:03):
doing okay.
So, in baseball, if you can geta hit one out of three times,
you're on the top of the league.
So hooray for that.
Also, you know I hear thephrase, "well, in today's
environment ooh, in today'senvironment might not be a good
time.
(34:28):
I had a really brilliant mentorat one of the top venture
capital firms say to me when Iwas talking about some of these
ideas.
She said well, you know, it'snever a good time to start a
business.
And you know what?
It's always a good time tostart a business.
So try to ignore that.
It's very hard to do.
Sure, there are so manyheadwinds today, but if you got
the idea, now's the time.
So try to ignore some of thator deal with it.
(34:51):
Don't waste a crisis.
If you're in the middle of one,use it.
Now in terms of what do we haveto look at on the horizon?
It's too obvious.
I'll say it anyway, because inthis podcast we haven't said AI
yet.
So here it is AI.
I said it.
Of course, for good, for bad,for in between, where's it going
(35:11):
?
We don't really know what'sgoing to happen, but no one is
starting anything these days.
You know, if I'm doing handmadeshoes, an investor is going to
ask me what my AI strategy is.
So be ready for that.
And can you be unique in that?
I think so.
I think there's still wide openways people can think about
(35:33):
using AI.
And maybe looking to the day, Iremember when people say what's
your web strategy?
So how are you doing onlinewith what you're doing?
Well, now you don't even asksuch a question.
Of course you have a webstrategy and an app strategy and
a mobile.
Well, we will come to that daywhere you don't ask that
question.
It's simply built in and thinkabout a few years hence.
(35:55):
How will you build that invirtually and visibly?
And an investor who says to youwhat is your AI strategy?
You're going to say what areyou from 2025?
Of course I have one.
Chris Maher (36:09):
Larry, we could talk to you for hours, but we've
got to wrap up here.
Before we let you go, how canpeople get in touch with you
directly and/ or learn moreabout your work?
Larry Goldberg (36:22):
Well, I am not a major social media user, only
LinkedIn, and it's a kind of agrown up social media.
It's not toxic.
So that's where you'll find me.
Feel free to connect with me,DM me on LinkedIn.
Larry Goldberg, you'llrecognize me by my white beard
and I'd happy to reach and talkto you through there.
(36:43):
And you'll see some of myhistory and other nonprofit
startups I've done.
And the patents of the couplethat I've been awarded.
So I think the best way wouldbe through LinkedIn.
Chris Maher (36:55):
Terrific.
Well, Larry.
Thank you so much, my friend.
It is an absolute pleasure, andthank you for spending a little
bit of time with Kelvin and metoday.
Larry Goldberg (37:02):
My pleasure.
Kelvin Crosby (37:03):
Well, that wraps up Investing in Accessibility
and go live beyond yourchallenges.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change, for
(37:24):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at SamaritanPartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
SamaritanPartners.
com You can take the first stepin investing in change by giving
(37:48):
us five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
(00:29):
Hey, so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility and
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and I got my co-host, Chris
Maher.
Man, how you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:43):
I'm good, Kelvin.
It's good to see you and to bewith you again, my friend.
How have you been?
Kelvin Crosby (00:48):
I'm doing good.
I haven't seen you for oneminute.
Chris Maher (00:51):
I know, I know we took a little brief hiatus
because we were both doing sometraveling, but it's good to see
you bud.
Kelvin Crosby (00:57):
Yep, I'm super excited that as we get closer to
some of the launches aboutsharing what that's going to be,
so to hint people, some goodthings coming in the future.
But let's get into today'sguest.
This guy, he's a sensei?
I'm trying to think, wow, ooh,is this going to be curious?
(01:19):
I'm curious.
So tell us a little bit aboutour guest.
Chris Maher (01:23):
Sure.
So I had the good fortune ofbeing introduced to our guest
today through a mutual contact,probably about a year and a half
or so ago, and that was justsuch a wonderful, serendipitous
moment for me, because our guestis a accessibility sensei.
Someone has coined that for him, he did not coin that himself.
(01:44):
And a master connector.
He has been so generous and sokind to me as I've gotten the
Samaritan Fund off the groundand we became fast friends and
continue to collaborate and talkvery often, and so, without
further ado, let's welcome ourfriend, Larry Goldberg.
Larry, welcome to the show.
Larry Goldberg (02:03):
Hello Kelvin, hello Chris, thanks for inviting
me.
Chris Maher (02:06):
It's our pleasure, it's great to have you here
today.
And so, as you know, Larry, youand I had dinner in New York a
week or so ago and we're talkingabout what topics we might talk
about when you come on thepodcast.
And I think the first thing weshould start off with, because I
think your background is veryunique, around your career and
(02:26):
lived experience over the lastseveral decades as it relates to
disability and accessibility.
And you have a reallywonderfully unique background in
my mind which has led into yourwork in more recent years,
which is very focused onadvising and mentoring startups.
And so that's going to be thesecond half of our conversation,
or probably the bulk of ourconversation today.
(02:46):
We're going to dig into kind ofthe startup environment and
really pick Larry's brains onhis experience mentoring and
working with startups and Ithink some of the kind of the
takeaways, the good, the bad andmaybe the ugly of, you know,
being an entrepreneur with astartup in this space and just
the trials and tribulations andthe landscape you have to
(03:08):
navigate and Larry has a wealthof wisdom and insights there.
But let's first, Larry, startwith your background, both
personal and work over the lastseveral decades, and if you
could share that with ourlisteners that'd be great.
Larry Goldberg (03:21):
Absolutely.
And in terms of the term sensei, I don't want to be a cultural
appropriator, but from the FarEast and Japan a sensei is a
teacher and nothing more thansomeone who can share what they
know, particularly in themartial arts, which I do not do.
But I started in this worldbecause and so many people come
(03:41):
into the accessibility fieldfrom so many directions.
I started because I love media.
Started all the way back injunior high I was making films
with Super 8 cameras and thenstepped up to video and my
intention all along was to be inthe field of media, filmmaking
and television, radio and Iprogressed through that and I
(04:04):
got jobs as a freelancer.
I was on radio, I was a discjockey if you can hear my voice,
of course, but mostly aroundjazz and eventually got to the
point where I really.
I was living in Boston.
I wanted to work for theunbelievable talented people at
(04:25):
WGBH public broadcasting premierstation.
And I tried to get a job therefor years and I'd send in
resumes, I'd try to makeconnections.
Couldn't get anything.
So I moved to New York, starteddoing some freelancing in New
York and one day in the New YorkTimes, when they used to run
Help Wanted ads, this littletiny six-point type said WGBH
(04:48):
looking for a manager of theirclosed captioning operation in
New York City.
Well, having gone to theUniversity of Southern
California and learned about TVtechnology, I actually knew what
closed captioning was, which isthe embedding of data in a
television signal to turn audiointo words.
And I applied for the job andbasically, in short, they said
(05:10):
do you know what closedcaptioning is?
I said yes.
They said you're hired.
Chris Maher (05:14):
Larry, how many years ago was that?
Larry Goldberg (05:16):
Oh my God, forty .
Nineteen eighty five.
So yeah, just hitting fourdecades.
Kelvin Crosby (05:24):
I wasn't even a thought back then.
Larry Goldberg (05:27):
And from there, as far as I knew, I didn't know
anyone in the disabilitycommunity.
Obviously I did, but I wasn'taware of it.
I started learning all aboutthe world of deafness, people
who are hard of hearing, andwords on screen.
I then moved to Boston,actually take over the caption
center, which is the operationthere, where captioning began
(05:49):
with Julia Child's French Chef.
And from there also then tookon the descriptive video service
providing audio description forTV shows, and learned about the
blindness world.
All of this just because I lovemedia and it frustrated me that
not everyone had the tools toboth create and to enjoy media.
(06:11):
I was like we got todemocratize this.
Around the time I was hittingan anniversary there,
The web started taking over anddigital media became paramount.
And we realized we needed amechanism for addressing these
new technologies and some of thepublic policy around it.
(06:32):
So, with tremendous support fromthe Corporation for Public
Broadcasting, which is extremelyimportant today, they provided
a grant to create the NationalCenter for Accessible Media, an
R&D group.
We took on R&D in the field ofstandards development,
developing tools, figuring outhow to make movies and theaters
(06:54):
accessible and networking likecrazy with the disability
community.
And had the chance to getinvolved in legislation in
Congress.
First the TV Decoder CircuitryAct in 1990, which I helped
draft, and then the Telecom Actin 96, which required captions
pervasively.
(07:14):
And then the 21st CenturyCommunications and Video
Accessibility Act, which hadmassive impact, passed in 2010.
I was at the White House withCongressman Markey at the time,
stevie Wonder, so many greatpeople, obama signed that bill.
The FCC then asked me to chairthe subcommittee that would
write the regs under that law,which was a blast.
(07:37):
And within not a long period oftime, Yahoo reached out to me
and said now you've done it.
You want to come on board andhelp us comply with this new law
that you helped make happen?
And I said, absolutely, lookthe impact and scale you could
have with a huge corporationlike that, and so I joined Yahoo
.
I eventually became head ofaccessibility at Yahoo and found
(08:01):
all kinds of opportunities toreally scale up.
Chris Maher (08:05):
That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that,Larry.
My gosh, just the arc of yourexperience, really from the
early days of accessibility andthen all the way through to many
of the major policy andregulations that have been in
place, is incredible.
Kelvin, do you have any initialquestions for Larry and his
background before we get intosome startup-y?
Kelvin Crosby (08:27):
I mean I thought it was interesting you brought
up the 21st centurytelecommunication act.
I mean, That was my firstlegislation bill I ever worked
on and I was like when youbrought down, like hey, we have
something in common.
Even though we didn't worktogether.
You probably worked with Moseand and Haben and some of those
individuals.
They were really heavilyinvolved in the actual push of
(08:49):
it.
Larry Goldberg (08:49):
When I was at WGBH, Haben Girma, first
deafblind graduate from HarvardLaw, was across the river and
her interpreter contacted me andsaid we need to develop some
technology so this woman couldactually attend classes, and we
helped hack together some techfor Haben Girma to help her at
that time.
Kelvin Crosby (09:08):
That's awesome.
Larry Goldberg (09:09):
And I should mention also, you talked about
lived experience.
As you notice, none of this ofmy story was really about my own
personal disability, which Ididn't realize I had until my
mid-50s, when I was missingalmost everything that was going
on in meetings and I was like,oh, I hang out with deaf people
(09:30):
all this time and all of asudden I lose my hearing.
What happened there?
And so now I'm a hearing aiduser and I am absolutely having
the lived experience.
Yep
Kelvin Crosby (09:40):
I mean, and I think that's something that's
really interesting in regards tolike, as we start developing
products and services and aslegislation starts going through
.
I mean, that was one thing whenthat act went into play, we
didn't see how, in some ways,how difficult it was going to be
to implement it in thedeaf-blind community.
(10:01):
We knew how we were going to doit in the deaf community pretty
much, and also how we weregoing to implement it in the
blind community, but thedeaf-blind community was one of
those, nobody understood thatNobody.
The people in the deaf-blindcommunity we were super excited,
but how were we going to reallyscale this?
(10:21):
And that was something that Imean we've come a long way since
then when that came out.
But I was involved in a lot ofthe I- connect program stuff and
all that stuff and I just findI'm curious from your
perspective, as this, as thatinitiative went into play and
this is not really on our agenda.
But I am really curious and Ithink this comes to the idea of
(10:44):
access for all is what issomething that you learned from
that initiative and realized,all right, we need to create
these legislations, but alsoreally looking at how do we
create this universal access forall.
Larry Goldberg (11:00):
So yeah, the challenges, the technological
challenges, particularly arounddeafblindness, were a steep hill
to climb.
Luckily there were some veryactive people from that
community.
An employee at WGBH had Ushersyndrome and his name, Carl
Richardson, someone whocontinues to teach me every day,
(11:20):
helped us understand what wecould do with technology that
could address those issues aswell.
And every new challenge thatcomes, of course, trying to make
media accessible for peoplewith cognitive disabilities is a
major challenge.
today.
We've got a great community ofpeople who want to take it on,
(11:41):
ready to grapple, and luckily alot of it is people who are
experiencing those barriersthemselves and somehow we come
up with solutions each time.
Kelvin Crosby (11:51):
One of the things, that's one of the
biggest things that came out ofthis initiative was we had to
figure it out and then, like mycompany, our whole focus is
looking at deafblind first andthen innovating from there.
And I think that's the thing isbecause I live that life
deafblindness I find myselfstruggling to get access to
(12:16):
information or details, but atthe same time, like all right
solving those problems.
Chris Maher (12:22):
So, Larry, let's transition a little bit.
So you have this wonderfulcareer that was what almost 30
years at the television station.
You then got into some really,really important policy work.
Then you move on to thecorporate world, some time at
Verizon, a long stretch at Yahoo, and now you've transitioned to
working with startups.
How did that transition takeplace, going from that corporate
(12:42):
and policy world into thestartup area?
Larry Goldberg (12:50):
Yeah, I think a lot of my career has been guided
by luck, fluke and randomness.
And whenever young people askfor what my career path was, I
was like, oh, I have no idea.
Very zigzag.
So when I left Yahoo now threeyears ago, I thought I would
start a consulting business,like many have, consulting with
major corporations as they godown their journey towards
accessibility.
(13:11):
And I built a major website,fully accessible, and I realized
, as I was about to launch it, Idon't want to do that, I don't
want to be hustling,particularly with companies who
may or may not be all bought in.
And around that very same time,I started getting these people,
young people, reaching out tome with this classic line, hey,
(13:32):
can I pick your brain?
And at this point I picturedthese birds having eaten
basically my entire brain away,nothing left.
But I loved what they were doing, I loved their energy, I loved
some of the paths they weregoing down and I thought, oh, I
might be able to help some ofthese folks.
(13:53):
Interestingly enough, most ofthe people I started working
with were women, and I can'tnecessarily explain why that
was, not all, but many.
And I found out that women inthese startups around the field
of accessibility, had some ofthe right energy and the vision
and the decision making andresilience to really take things
(14:17):
and get it off the ground.
And so, as more and more ofthese people would reach out to
me through social media, Istarted taking some of them on
as paid clients, others as anequity advisor and other just
because, hey, I was fascinatedby what they're trying to pull
off and maybe I could help.
Chris Maher (14:35):
I'm really glad you mentioned the work with the
female founders, because thatwas something that I recalled
when we first met, that you weretalking about how you were
working with a group of femalefounders, which is awesome.
So, Larry, thank you for that,and it's I know, I know from
talking to many of thoseentrepreneurs that you work with
that the value you bring to thetable is immense.
(14:56):
That lived experience you havewith work and all those years of
working in accessibility ishelpful in so many ways, and so
let's dig into that a little bit, because you, I know, have some
strong feelings around startupsand developing innovative
technologies, around assistivetech, disability tech.
But let's dig into that.
What should entrepreneurs, whatare some of the things they
(15:17):
really should be thinking aboutin that early stage as they're
developing assistive tech anddisability tech?
Larry Goldberg (15:24):
Yeah, I have to issue a caveat here.
I'm approaching this from apoint of view that started with
closed captioning and today, aswe all know, closed captioning
is pervasive and I don't knowthat any of us ever really
expected the widespread use ofclosed captioning in so many
communities.
(15:44):
Some people talk about the curbcut effect.
I talk about the closed captioneffect.
And the idea that closedcaptions in essence became
mainstream.
And you hear the data.
We heard Anne-Marie Killiantalk about 60 to 80 percent of
Netflix users are turning oncaptions, and so when I talk to
(16:04):
an entrepreneur starting a newbusiness, I always want to ask
them, aside from the importantcore audience you develop your
tech for, who else could benefit?
What is the expanse and scaleyou could reach?
Because investors are wantingto know your numbers and so how
(16:25):
big a market can you really be?
And if you want to start withthe notion of developed for
people with disabilities sharedwith the world?
And that's what I tend to askthese folks, because they
generally come at it with aheavy mission from their own
personal disability or a familymember or friend, and I love
(16:48):
their ideas and I say OK, andwho else might benefit?
And how big?
And I'm learning all the termsfrom your investment world,
what's your total addressablemarket?
Could it possibly be everyone?
So let's think about that.
And that's where I do spendtime with some of these startups
(17:09):
, to think how might we exploitwhat you've developed for blind
people, deaf people, people withmobility disabilities, and say
"yes, and.
And I always refer back to thiswonderful story about the OXO
Good Grips kitchen utensils.
And it was developed by ahusband and wife.
(17:32):
The wife had arthritis.
They are the best kitchenutensils anywhere and they never
advertised that they're goodfor people with disabilities.
But boy, do people withdisabilities know.
And they're big and they'resuccessful.
And what else could you do tobe an Oxo in your field is what
I tend to ask these folks.
Kelvin Crosby (17:53):
I think it's really interesting that, as you
kind of brought up thecaptioning and all that stuff, I
think we're seeing a trend inthe Investing in Accessibility
podcast that where the growth ishappening in access for people
with disabilities is in theuniversal access.
(18:17):
And, as you were talking about,can you go get more than just
your population that you'retrying to serve?
Can you help another populationin looking at that effect and
being able to create access in away where every person that
(18:40):
could benefit from your productor service or software or
whatever, they can really gainthat access?
And I think that's reallyimportant that we see is that
we're seeing this trend.
Oh, I don't know if it's even atrend, it's a movement that is
becoming a firm foundation asyou start innovating products
(19:01):
and services and programs anddifferent things like that.
We're starting to see this.
So, Chris, why don't you divein a little bit more with Larry
here on where are we seeingeverything going?
Chris Maher (19:17):
Great question.
I think a phrase, Larry, youjust used that I think is really
, really helpful, is developedfor people with disabilities but
shared with the world, oruseful to the world.
And for venture investors,you're right, part of it is how
big is this opportunity?
What is that total addressablemarket?
(19:38):
And we did a podcast episodeseveral weeks ago around Exit
Business versus LifestyleBusiness and these are some
decisions that entrepreneurshave to make.
Do they want to stay small,grow organically, be relatively
self-funded, not take on thatprofessional investment where
there are certain expectationsthat are now put upon you and
(19:59):
your business, largely aliquidity event.
And those are things I don'tthink entrepreneurs think about
enough or think aboutthoughtfully enough in that
early stage.
And so having an advisor and amentor like you who is pushing
them to think about these typesof questions, which are
critically important, I think issuper valuable to them.
(20:22):
I think, as it relates toinnovation, there are, I guess I
think about it, a couple ways.
A term that is used kind of intechnology in general is kind of
like like dual use.
So hey, it's, it's being built,say, for this one specific
population, but it's also goodfor another population, or the
broader, the broader community.
(20:42):
I think that's where we needmore companies that bring that
to the table in the disabilitysector, these early stage
startups, because that's where Ithink we can have some big
outcomes or exits.
And we need a few of those,right, like we need some
unicorns, we need some bigacquisitions, we need an IPO,
because I think that's going towake up the professional
(21:04):
investment world, the privatecapital, where we don't have
nearly enough in this sectorright now, and so we do need
some of that.
I do think there are a numberof companies that can be very
successful being more focused ona specific area of disability,
say like a Be My Eyes type oftype of company.
I think they can still do verywell and have have a very good
(21:26):
outcome for more traditionalventure capital investors.
But, Larry, are there anyexamples that you've seen in
your advising and mentoring workthat stand out for you, either
way, that had a great idea butlike it just wasn't big enough
and so it stayed kind of morefocused and small.
Or a company that started outwith a specific, you know, an
(21:48):
idea for a specific part of thecommunity that over time they
realized oh my god, this, thisis actually has a much broader
application.
Larry Goldberg (21:56):
Yeah, definitely both sides of it and all in
between.
You know, having come from somany years in the world of
non-profits, one of the biggestissues we always would talk
about is sustainability.
We're doing great by ourmission, but are we going to be
able to keep going?
In the for-profit world, it'sbeyond sustainability, it's
scale and growth.
And in the business world,certainly if you're taking
(22:20):
outside investment, you reallyneed to prove you can do that.
So one of the companies I amvery deeply involved in is
involved with adding signlanguage to movies, streaming
movies.
They're called Sign Up Media.
The brilliant idea of a16-year-old founder, incredible,
a great disruptor, and she feltlike you can click on a button
(22:44):
and get captions on your Disneyor Netflix movies, why can't I
click on a button and get signlanguage?
Brilliant.
She reached out to me to pickmy brain.
I got very involved, still am,and I also think about, all
right, what could spin out fromthis.
So you've got a stream of media, it's got audio, it's got video
(23:05):
, it's often audio description,subtitles in 100 languages.
Now we want to add anotherstream of sign language embedded
within it.
What other things could we doto enhance media that would take
off on the technology we'redeveloping?
That would be not just for signlanguage users but for other
(23:26):
disabilities or other people whoare underserved.
And so we are heading in thatdirection, looking at what other
markets this technology we'vedeveloped could really address.
There's another company.
It's a great story.
Unfortunately, they're on theback burner right now.
This woman who has low visionhad developed a concept for
(23:48):
people who are at theirworkplace just being bombarded
with texts and emails and Slackand all day long, just
distracted, all day long, andshe had a way of pulling
together all of these strandsfor the enterprise workplace to
help people focus, but make surethat your boss can get through
(24:08):
when necessary.
She called her company Gashido,and I thought that's some
Japanese term.
I don't know what Gashido isand she said, no, actually it
stands for "get shit done.
And I thought, oh, I am in 100%just for that.
And that was the kind ofdevelopment that absolutely
(24:32):
could go far beyond the originaltarget market, people with
cognitive disabilities orattention deficit disorder, and
right now she's in stealth mode,but I love that idea.
Chris Maher (24:45):
Yeah, I think those are two great examples.
Larry, in your experienceworking with startups, are there
any, I guess, kind of mistakesor pitfalls or traps that you
see they tend to fall into thatare easily avoidable?
Kind of like thoseself-inflicted wounds, poor
(25:20):
decisions early on that you seeconsistently that you wish you
could tell all early stageentrepreneurs?
Larry Goldberg (25:21):
Yeah, some basic good business practices.
It's so basic, but I actuallyexperience some startups who are
not responsive.
Don't get right back to you.
Or I provide an introduction tosomeone important like Mr Chris
Maher or our good friend GinaKline, and then I never hear
from them again.
You've got to keep your loopclosed.
You absolutely got to keep intouch with everyone, because you
(25:42):
never know what's going to turninto a piece of gold.
And so I think some of it isjust behavioral, but certainly
others are sort of obvious.
We all know this.
Talk to your users, and I knowKelvin has run into this I'm
sure.
Some brilliant college studentinvents something.
(26:03):
This would be great for blindpeople, absolutely.
Oh well, have you talked toblind people?
No, no, no, we plan to as soonas we have our MVP.
Well, I hope we're done withthat.
That is just so backwards, butsure I've run into that over and
over again.
Kelvin Crosby (26:21):
I mean, I think that's one of my biggest pet
peeves is if you haven't doneyour market research, why bother
to start?
It's great to have a great idea, but if you haven't done your
market research, don't start,because you're going to put a
lot of energy, because I'm I'mat the point in my company where
(26:41):
I'm ready to be done.
I'm ready to be done.
I'm over it.
But I know that my marketresearch is solid and I know
that I'm going to be okay, and Ijust go back and listen to
those testimonials and that'swhat keeps me moving, knowing
that I have a product that keepsme motivated to keep moving
(27:02):
forward.
And I think that's something soimportant is that do your
market research.
See that there's even aninterest that they want your
product, and I think that is soimportant.
Chris Maher (27:20):
I think that speaks to what you're both talking
about is product market fit, andthat starts with talking to the
end user.
Right?
And I think that is criticallyimportant.
I think a lot of, and thisisn't just in the disability
sector, I think it'sentrepreneurship across the
board.
You're right Larry, you'relike, oh, I think this is a
great idea, people are going tolove this.
But they don't go out andactually speak to the end
customer.
Larry Goldberg (27:41):
Who is your real customer?
A lot of these startups havetotal buy- in from the end user
and the disability community, aparent of a deaf child,
whatever, but they don't intendto sell it to those people.
They want to sell it to theenterprise.
The enterprise might say nicewords about how they want to
help the poor disabled person,but that's not going to make
(28:03):
their decision.
So put yourself in the mindsetof this big corporate chieftain
who can write checks and reallywants to work with you, but
you've got to make it reallyeasy for that person, because
that's where your business modelis focused.
Most of what I talk to arepeople who are looking at B2B,
(28:25):
and so one early lesson Ilearned was one company who's
doing tremendously well now wasselling themselves on the
quality of the output that theirusers loved how good and clean
the output was, and they wouldcharge a little bit more.
They were in a competitiveindustry, but they were all in
on quality.
(28:46):
And I actually signed a majorcontract with them when I was at
Yahoo.
Recently they said they don'tpush as much on quality as they
do on workflow, because thecompanies they're selling to
just want ease of operation.
They want to disrupt everything.
Maybe they don't really evenwant to buy something that helps
(29:06):
people with disabilities.
Make it easy, one click, greatportal, order your whatever
service it is and move on, andyou will sell a lot better to
these big enterprises if youjust make their lives easier.
Chris Maher (29:23):
Larry, it's a really interesting point you
bring up and it reminds me ofthis past year I was a mentor
for an accelerator program atthe NYU Business School called
Endless Frontier Labs.
I was in the digital healthgroup.
But what was so eye-opening forme was there was a session
where the startups were givingtheir pitch, it was the
(29:45):
beginning of the program.
It's the full academic year,but at the beginning of the
program they do like an initialpitch and then we mentor them
over the course of the academicyear, and these are startups,
not student-led companies, andthen at the end they redo the
pitch day.
And up front this company wastalking about the quality, like,
oh, we're better than thecompetition, and they put up the
little magic quadrant ofGartner and they were in the
(30:08):
upper right quadrant of that.
And someone, one of the mentorswho works in industry, not an
investor, works in industry, andit was something related to
hospitals.
He said, "hey, that's great andit sounds like you are better
than anything that's in themarket.
But that's not what we evaluateon.
We evaluate on what would workbest for us, in our environment,
(30:32):
in our processes and workflow.
"So many times he said we don'tchoose the best solution, we
choose the best solution for us,and I think that speaks to what
you were just saying, Larry.
The other thing I think thistouches on, and Larry I'd love
to get your take on this, whenyou start talking about product
market fit and going out andtalking to the end customer and
(30:54):
the user, two things come tomind for me.
One is about including thecommunity.
So build it with us, not for us, that whole concept.
But also then it gets into theconcept of universal design,
accessible design, human-centered design, inclusive
(31:17):
design.
It goes by a lot of differentkind of monikers these days, but
I'd love to get your take onwhere your thoughts are on that,
on inclusive or universaldesign.
Larry Goldberg (31:23):
Yeah, back a number of years ago because what
I was trying to do basicallywas make media universally
accessible through captioningand description.
I didn't want to use the termAT assistive technology because
you know that's a Brailledisplay, that's, that's JAWS,
that's a separate add on youhave to buy.
(31:44):
So I tried to disseminate theconcept Accessible Mainstream
Technology.
Build it in.
Just make it part of theoperating system or the software
as is, and it makes everyone'slives so much better.
It might also mean that yourstandalone device is no longer
(32:04):
needed and you got to realizeyou might put yourself out of
business if you do it right.
Look at the iPhone today.
It's got like 100 accessibilityfeatures built in for free.
It's kind of hard to argueagainst that.
It probably means somecompanies no longer have much of
a market.
So the idea of trying to aimtowards a universally available
(32:30):
or usable technology might meanyou're going to be absorbed into
the mainstream, which you knowin some ways is really a good
thing.
Especially now that I've beenpromoting, with many others,
this concept of "nothing aboutus without us.
To me is wrong.
It's "nothing without us,period, because everything is
(32:52):
about us all the us's whetheryou have a disability or not.
So when you're trying to designa new technology, think about
the amazing diversity of all thedifferent people, because
that's who you want to use it,and you can call it universal if
you want, or you can just callit good design.
Chris Maher (33:12):
You know, Larry, I guess, as we wrap up, what would
be, I guess two questions.
One would be what are your toptwo or three pieces of advice
for startup entrepreneurs inthis space?
And then I guess the last bigquestion is and you might have
just answered it a little bit,but what do you think is out
(33:34):
there on the horizon that isgoing to play a significant role
going forward as it relates toassistive tech and accessibility
?
Larry Goldberg (33:43):
Well, I think you don't have to tell an
entrepreneur it's going to betough.
I think they know that.
So to advise that they need tobe resilient, that if you fail
49% of the time you're actuallywinning because 51% says you're
(34:03):
doing okay.
So, in baseball, if you can geta hit one out of three times,
you're on the top of the league.
So hooray for that.
Also, you know I hear thephrase, "well, in today's
environment ooh, in today'senvironment might not be a good
time.
(34:28):
I had a really brilliant mentorat one of the top venture
capital firms say to me when Iwas talking about some of these
ideas.
She said well, you know, it'snever a good time to start a
business.
And you know what?
It's always a good time tostart a business.
So try to ignore that.
It's very hard to do.
Sure, there are so manyheadwinds today, but if you got
the idea, now's the time.
So try to ignore some of thator deal with it.
(34:51):
Don't waste a crisis.
If you're in the middle of one,use it.
Now in terms of what do we haveto look at on the horizon?
It's too obvious.
I'll say it anyway, because inthis podcast we haven't said AI
yet.
So here it is AI.
I said it.
Of course, for good, for bad,for in between, where's it going
(35:11):
?
We don't really know what'sgoing to happen, but no one is
starting anything these days.
You know, if I'm doing handmadeshoes, an investor is going to
ask me what my AI strategy is.
So be ready for that.
And can you be unique in that?
I think so.
I think there's still wide openways people can think about
(35:33):
using AI.
And maybe looking to the day, Iremember when people say what's
your web strategy?
So how are you doing onlinewith what you're doing?
Well, now you don't even asksuch a question.
Of course you have a webstrategy and an app strategy and
a mobile.
Well, we will come to that daywhere you don't ask that
question.
It's simply built in and thinkabout a few years hence.
(35:55):
How will you build that invirtually and visibly?
And an investor who says to youwhat is your AI strategy?
You're going to say what areyou from 2025?
Of course I have one.
Chris Maher (36:09):
Larry, we could talk to you for hours, but we've
got to wrap up here.
Before we let you go, how canpeople get in touch with you
directly and/ or learn moreabout your work?
Larry Goldberg (36:22):
Well, I am not a major social media user, only
LinkedIn, and it's a kind of agrown up social media.
It's not toxic.
So that's where you'll find me.
Feel free to connect with me,DM me on LinkedIn.
Larry Goldberg, you'llrecognize me by my white beard
and I'd happy to reach and talkto you through there.
(36:43):
And you'll see some of myhistory and other nonprofit
startups I've done.
And the patents of the couplethat I've been awarded.
So I think the best way wouldbe through LinkedIn.
Chris Maher (36:55):
Terrific.
Well, Larry.
Thank you so much, my friend.
It is an absolute pleasure, andthank you for spending a little
bit of time with Kelvin and metoday.
Larry Goldberg (37:02):
My pleasure.
Kelvin Crosby (37:03):
Well, that wraps up Investing in Accessibility
and go live beyond yourchallenges.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change, for
(37:24):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at SamaritanPartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
SamaritanPartners.
com You can take the first stepin investing in change by giving
(37:48):
us five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
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