In this powerful episode of Investing in Accessibility, co-hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher sit down with digital accessibility pioneer Mike Paciello, Chief Accessibility Officer at AudioEye and founder of The Paciello Group. Mike shares his remarkable four-decade journey—from converting print documentation into Braille in the 1980s to shaping web accessibility standards and launching multiple successful ventures.
Now at the forefront of scalable digital accessibility solutions, Mike explains why automation and AI are essential for meeting the growing digital needs of people with disabilities. He shares his vision for a future where accessibility is invisible, integrated, and universal—where technology adapts to users, not the other way around. This episode offers valuable insights into how human-centered innovation can drive both social impact and economic opportunity.
Links & Resources:
Mike Paciello: Connect on LinkedIn
Mike at AudioEye: michael.paciello@audioeye.com
Mike at WebAble: mpaciello@webable.com
WebABLE: website
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
It's so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
(00:28):
Today's a beautiful day in theneighborhood and I'm so excited
that you're here At Investing inAccessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and let's get the guy that
smells like lemons in here today.
Chris Maher, how you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:42):
Hey, Kelvin, how are you, m y friend?
Good to be with you, as always.
Kelvin Crosby (00:47):
Yeah, I couldn't resist that intro after I'm
smelling like coconut trying totake care of my skin.
The last time I met you inperson, you smelled like lemons,
so I was like you know, thiscould be a really interesting
intro
Chris Maher (01:00):
There you go, there you go.
Well, you know you're takingcare of yourself.
I like that.
That's a good thing.
Kelvin Crosby (01:06):
Well, hey, we got to live beyond our challenges
somehow, right, yep.
Anyway, so today we got anawesome guest today.
One thing is this guy had beenrocking the accessibility world
for years and has done somechanges in the world.
That man I'm like just soinspired by, truly by just the
(01:31):
thoughts and the ideas and thecreativity and being able to
bring people together to createdigital accessibility in many
different ways, but I truly amexcited about this.
So, Chris, why don't youintroduce us to our guest and
what is he all about?
Chris Maher (01:48):
You got it.
It's my pleasure to introduceour guest today, who I had the
good fortune of meeting when Ifirst launched Samaritan
Partners the fund.
But our guest today and I'llget into that story in a second
but our guest today is my goodfriend, Mike Paciello, who's the
Chief Accessibility Officer atAudioEye and one of the all-time
(02:09):
good guys.
So, Mike, welcome to the showtoday.
Mike Paciello (02:13):
Hey guys, listen, you're way, way, way, way too
many kudos and nice statements.
I'm not nearly as good as youguys are exclaiming.
Chris Maher (02:23):
Well, you're selling yourself short.
And the quick story on how Mikeand I met it was probably, I
think, about six weeks after Ihad officially launched
Samaritan Partners and I went tothe M- Enabling Conference in
the DC area and this was Octoberof 2023.
And Mike was kind and generousenough to take a meeting with me
(02:44):
and we sat down and kind of inlike the lobby area and Mike,
that was the start of, for me,just a wonderful relationship
and what has become a friendship, because, again, you've just
been so generous with your timeand your mentorship and your
advice to me as I was gettingSamaritan off the ground.
And now it's whenever I see youout and about because you're at
(03:04):
every industry event, it seemslike and whenever we bump into
each other it just brings asmile to my face when I see you.
But again, you've been so kindto me and so generous with your
time and your advice, and so Ithank you for that and it's
wonderful to have you here today.
Mike Paciello (03:18):
Hey, listen it's a privilege for me to be here
honestly and, Chris, therelationship that you and I have
has been nothing but positive,and I just run into so many
colleagues and friends in thisfield of accessibility.
It's hard now for me to say,hey, you need to touch base with
Chris Maher, see if there'ssomething that he can do there.
So, yeah, this is great.
I'm excited.
Chris Maher (03:36):
Well thank you, thank you for that.
Let's start off because youhave had, as far as I can tell,
one of the longest careers inaccessibility and in and around
the disability community, and soI think where we start is if
you could just give us a summaryof that arc of your journey,
both entrepreneurially andprofessionally, and then we'll
(03:58):
kick things off from there.
But let's start with kind ofyour background and that journey
that you've been on.
Mike Paciello (04:03):
Yeah, so my career goes back to the early
80s, 83, 84, mid 80s, if youwant.
I worked for a fairly largecomputer company at that time,
Digital Equipment Corporation,which has since been absorbed by
HP.
So I guess it started there.
Believe it or not, I started inthe stock room.
That was my first job wasworking in the stock room.
(04:24):
But I was in an environmentwhere it was all computer
technology and I was just, likeyou know, a sponge soaking up
knowledge as I went and readevery book, took every possible
computer course that that DECtaught there.
And about two years into it Iwas approached by one of my
managers.
I went from the stockroom intotechnical writing and going into
(04:47):
technical writing, not only wasit, it went back to some of my
own roots as a sports journalistand writer when I was in school
.
So I got to write again.
I get to, you know, key up onthat passion.
My manager as a writer came tome and said hey, mike, we've got
this project.
It's kind of a volunteer thing,but if you do it, you know it
(05:09):
would be a big help.
And the project involved takingour print documentation,
computer documentation, down tothe National Braille Press in
Boston and then they would takethe printed books and ultimately
convert them into Braille.
That's how I got started.
So this is like 83, 84-ish Ithink, when I got started at
(05:31):
that level.
Kelvin Crosby (05:32):
What was your first impression of the Braille
embossing?
Mike Paciello (05:35):
It's funny that you bring that up, because I
went down there and the directorat that particular time was
Bill Reeder and Bill said hey,Mike, while you're here, would
you like me to give you a tourof the place?
Now keep in mind, if you couldtry to keep these two stories,
I've got a career that I'm as atechnical writer and now
learning the starting aspects ofmarkup language for electronic
(05:57):
documents.
Goldfarb had just inventedGencode.
It wasn't even being calledSGML, which is the Standard
Generalized Markup Language.
Sorry if I'm getting a littletechnical here, at that time,
but I was just starting with it.
So I've got that going on andnow I'm with Bill and he's
giving me this, you know,lifecycle journey of how they
(06:18):
take printed documentation andconvert that into Braille, which
at that time was they would usehumans behind Braille
typewriters and do that and thenset it up for the typesetter,
keeping in mind that what Ithink the average ratio of a
print page to Braille is threeto one.
So for every single print page,there's three Braille pages that
(06:43):
these folks had to commit.
You get that done, converted,and then you push that to a
printer, a printing press thatin and of itself you know, with
Braille printer and the binderyand everything.
And I said to myself, justlooking at that process, this is
crazy.
I mean it would take years insome cases.
(07:04):
Some of the books that weproduced at DEC were 700, 800
pages and they were multiplevolumes.
So it would take them yearssometimes to produce a single
volume in Braille.
For maybe at that time, whoknows, maybe 40, 50, 100 users
who actually used, you know,digital computer systems
(07:26):
anywhere and I thought this iscrazy.
Chris Maher (07:30):
And, Mike, was it that experience where you were
like I'm hooked, Like this, thisis the direction I want to go
around accessibility?
Or did it take a couple moreexperiences to where you just
committed yourself essentiallyfull time to it?
Mike Paciello (07:43):
No, no no, that was the hook.
That was the hook.
I got excited about it rightaway because again now I'm
learning electronic markuplanguages in documentation.
This is what I do.
So I say, I think, who knowswhy a bolt of lightning or
something said.
I wonder if I can take what I'mdoing here with markup
(08:07):
languages, which at that time wewere outputting them to
PostScript, which is a, you know, the predecessor of PDF.
Okay, again, it gives you howold I really am.
If I could do that and get itto these printers, why can't I
do the same thing for Brailleprinters?
That got me hooked and it'simmediately.
(08:28):
So I just started doing someresearch about others that were
blind in the technology field,learning about Braille
translation.
So I taught myself that.
I learned a lot more aboutmarkup languages and that led to
me meeting George Kirscher I'msure Kelvin, you know George
right, he's very well known inthis field.
(08:52):
He had a small little startupbusiness called Computerized
Books for the Blind at thatparticular time and George and I
got together.
We formed an internationalworking group of other
colleagues in the field.
Our first meeting was inWashington DC at a conference
(09:12):
that was hosted by Judge LeonardSahanek, which this is another
whole story in and of itself,but ultimately that led us to
meeting at CSUN, which I knowyou guys both know right, which
was my first time going to thatconference, which I think was in
88, 1988.
And the conference started like85.
So it goes back that long.
And we launched thatInternational Committee for
(09:32):
Accessible Document Design,ultimately created what's called
a document type definition, ora DTD, for defining how to
convert a print documentelectronically, how to mark it
up and code it and now put it toget this not just Braille, but
large text and voice-ready files, documentation.
Kelvin Crosby (09:52):
What's amazing is like you hear these stories of,
like, the growth of Braille andthen coming into the digital
industry, because what you'retalking about is truly how this
transformed the visual impairedworld and being able to get
access, but it not only did itcreate access for visually
(10:15):
impaired people, but alsocreated access for a lot of
other people, and this is thebeginning of that process.
And I feel like this is thebottom of the Mount Everest,
that we are almost to the peakand how truly, like the way you
explained it, it's like wow, wedefinitely made some hurdles.
(10:36):
So what was that turning pointwhere you're like we did this,
like we have been able to makeit digital for people who are
visually impaired to be able toaccess, for a large print and
audio files?
Mike Paciello (10:49):
Yeah, that's a great question, Kelvin, exactly
when I mean it led to us.
We, that working group, workedfor a good two to three years to
get that specification right,doing a lot of user testing with
users.
You made made a great point.
It's not just for the blind,not just for the low vision.
You know, when you think aboutpeople who are quote unquote
print impaired and includes anyindividual, say, for example,
(11:12):
they may be missing hands andfingers, they can't turn pages.
It affected the lives ofindividuals with certain
cognition disabilities too,right around Braille.
So they may not be, they maynot be using Braille, but they
may be using large text or theymight be even using voice ready.
This is before Dragon.
I would say it was in the early90s I think around 92, 93, when
(11:33):
we had a specification that wegot released.
It got adopted by the AmericanAssociation of Publishers and
became their DTD for producingaccessible documentation by all
of the standards committees thatinvolved it.
It also, if you don't know,this, was the predecessor for
making the web accessiblethrough the HTML specification.
(11:58):
We merged the reference spec ofthe iCAD DT D into the html 3.0
specification.
That's how all that, that's howthat all all came about.
Chris Maher (12:10):
And mike at what point did all of this trigger
you on your own entrepreneurialjourney to found companies and
to build companies and to sellcompanies?
I'd love to get a little bit ofinsight into that, because
you've been a very successfulentrepreneur over the course of
your career.
Mike Paciello (12:29):
Really moving forward from 83 all the way up
to 96, 1996.
Actually it was before that.
In 1993, I started gettinginvolved at MIT with the Web
Consortium.
Accessibility is going out ofmy mind, I'm talking about it
and in 1990, 1996, I got laidoff.
(12:51):
Actually I didn't get laid off.
Digital sold my division.
I was approached because I wasmanaging basically what was
going on at MIT at thatparticular time around
accessibility.
I was just kind of leading it Ishouldn't say managing, I was
just leading it.
And they said hey look, do youthink we could put a project
together?
I said absolutely, because thegovernment's going to fund it.
(13:13):
In Europe by that time.
Now the TIDE initiative saidthey would be interested in
funding it.
So Jim Miller, myself, DanyaDadyek we got together.
We wrote a business plan for itand then launched the Web
Accessibility Initiative at theW3C in 1997.
That really led to me going offon my own.
(13:34):
Two significant events tookplace.
One was one of the fathers ofSGML, Yuri Rubinsky.
Yuri owned a company out ofToronto called SoftQuad and they
made one of the first graphicaleditors for SGML electronic
documentation.
But they also made the veryfirst graphical application for
(13:58):
making webpages.
And so Yuri was very much intoaccessibility, as were a lot of
the folks at MIT at thatparticular time.
Yuri dies in 96.
I get asked, I have no idea why,I get asked to be the director,
executive director, of thefoundation built in his name.
That was when I wrote thespecification, finished it with
(14:22):
the Yuri Rubinsky InsightFoundation and launched it as a
member of that.
Ultimately, I know this isgoing kind of fast, Ultimately,
the foundation ran out offunding and so I had to go start
my own business and all I knewwas web accessibility.
So the first company I foundedwas based on a website that I
(14:43):
already had up and running but Ibelieve was the very first web
accessibility portal calledWebAble, which I still to this
day have.
It's got a whole differentsecond life, but that's what it
was.
And launching that led to somemeetings with a couple of people
who reached out to me aboutstarting up a web business.
(15:05):
That was my first foray into,or introduction into, the
entrepreneurial world ofstartups at that particular time
.
Chris Maher (15:15):
Mike, was that when you founded The Paciello Group,
or was there something before?
Mike Paciello (15:18):
No, no, TPG wasn't founded for almost eight
or nine years later.
Chris Maher (15:24):
Gotcha.
Kelvin Crosby (15:25):
Mike, this has been fascinating.
I mean, I truly am just kind ofblown away how you built up
your career into theaccessibility world and
everything like this and then,as you kind of started getting
more and more, you realize youknow I'm going to need to go
start my own company and reallymake this really digital
(15:45):
accessibility really happen.
Kind of tell us that journeyand what was that like and how
did you start the company?
Mike Paciello (15:54):
Yeah.
So a couple of things I thinkreally were important.
I already had been in theaccessibility business for a
number of years by this time,you know, 10, 12, 13 years.
So I already had a reputation,a resume around the industry.
So that that was, that wasimportant.
If you're going to, not like itwas my intent to build my own
(16:15):
brand, but ultimately that'swhat happens is you build a
resume, you build a reputation,you get involved with your
industry, you make contributionsto that industry and you get a
good reputation resume from that.
That led to some VCs, to behonest, with you, approaching me
and asking me if I'd beinterested in, you know,
(16:37):
starting up, basically thatparticular time was, you know,
portals were really important,right, really really popular.
That was at the web bubble, webportal bubble stage and phase
back in 90s.
You know now we're talkingabout 98, 99, in 1998, 99.
So I got invited throughanother individual that I had
formed a partnership with to gomake a presentation to Motorola
(17:01):
Ventures down in Boston.
And remember this is now, I'mone of, I don't know I had made
the cut somehow just through,because I wrote up the proposal
of building a business on this.
They had it.
I'd made the cut down to thefinal 10.
I was blown away by that, to behonest with you.
And then they came in and hadme come in and make this
(17:21):
presentation.
So I make the pitch.
Functionally it is a pitch tofund the business.
How much I need what I've gotgoing in terms of active
business that particular time,which was really a bit of
consulting, ironically enough,but a lot of it was sponsorship
dollars for the portal itself.
And I say a lot.
We're talking less than$100,000 a year.
(17:43):
You know in terms, but that wasgood enough back in the 90s
that worked for me.
I keep myself going.
Made the presentation, made thepitch in front of this, you
know, table all these guysaround it, all the investors and
private equity folks there.
And then I get a call two dayslater saying we want you to come
(18:03):
in, we want to talk about doingan agreement.
Right, I was blown away.
First time I'd ever done it.
I came in.
Now this is where lesson twocomes in.
So now I'm sitting down withthe head of Motorola Ventures at
that particular time, who alsowas the son of the CEO of
Motorola at that particular timeas well.
Russell was the son of the CEOof Motorola at that particular
time as well.
He's got this group of lawyersand technologists and
(18:27):
accountants and business people,everything all the way across
the board, and he came right outand says, Mike, we love your
pitch, love the idea, love thewhole concept of you know,
helping people with disabilities, building awareness that we
like what the portal is and,most important, we love your
brand.
That's it.
Everything else about yourbusiness, your finances, your
business partner, yoursponsorship, your whole business
(18:50):
model, your business plan, it'sno good.
Which is why we're here.
And this is the important pointfor entrepreneurs and people.
We're here to help you.
We're gonna surround you,you're the brand, you're the
name, but we're gonna surroundyou with the best of the best in
accounting, legal, you knowpatent people, you know things
(19:10):
of that nature, our financialinvestors, and we're going to
show you and teach you how tobuild a profitable entity.
And that was huge.
So that was the lesson Ilearned.
The best thing you can do issurround yourself with people
who are smarter, brighter, evenmore entrepreneurial than you
are, and that is what I did withthose folks right there at
(19:32):
Motor World Adventures.
Chris Maher (19:33):
A great insight for entrepreneurs.
It's one thing to take capital,but to take capital it also
brings value to the table, iswhere it can really benefit you.
Kelvin Crosby (19:45):
Well, I mean, if you think about we talked about
this in the last episode andwhat that means is like, if
you're going to take in VC money, having that team around you,
what is that VC money going toreally do for you from an
investment standpoint?
And I think that is huge, huge,huge, huge, and I'm so glad you
(20:05):
brought that up, Mike, andreally brought that forward.
Chris Maher (20:09):
So, mike, then you go on and you found the
Passiello Group and you have agood exit with that after a
number of years of running that.
And the amazing brand of TPGIlives today and that business
has grown and scaled.
But your position today, yourjob today at AudioEye as Chief
(20:30):
Accessibility Officer, which isa public company in the digital
accessibility space, on aprevious episode Kelvin and I
talked about an example of wherethere has been significant
investment and there arestarting to have exits or
outcomes in an area ofaccessibility, and we talked
about digital accessibility.
But I'd love for you to diginto the work you're doing at
(20:50):
AudioEye and the landscapethat's going on there, and your
insights would be wonderful.
Mike Paciello (20:56):
I don't want to leave the story of TPG off the
table because that is a successand that is what I consider my
biggest feather in my cap.
I mean, I did launch the WebAccessibility Initiative and
everything like that, but thebiggest feather in my cap was
TPG.
And that was again because ofthe same notion of I surrounded
myself.
I built a company that wasliterally grassroots, that was
(21:19):
self-funded, based on my ownmoney at that particular time,
but I surrounded myself with thebest, literally to this day I
still believe that, the bestexperts in the world.
So I had the best teamsurrounding me In order to build
that brand that became TPG.
And that is the very reason whythe investors from Vector and,
(21:41):
of course, through the auspicesof Vispero, acquired TPG versus
Deque or Level Access thatparticular time, which was a
Level Access they were SSB atthat particular still that
particular time, because TPG'sbrand was so well known
worldwide and we had a qualityabout the company that I believe
(22:04):
still exists today and I thinkis crucial to any business, and
that is people trusted us.
Everything that came from uswas based on trust marketing and
truth and transparency.
That's huge.
And I'll bring that back toyour question in this world that
I'm in today where AudioEyeexists.
(22:25):
Chris, in just a second.
But I just want to make surethat I give kudos to all the
folks at TPG and Vispero andVector, because my exit was very
successful.
It was a forced exit, but notforced because of business.
It was my wife.
My first wife was dying ofbrain cancer and I had to stop
so I could stay home and takecare of her.
(22:45):
That was the only reason why Isold it, otherwise I would never
.
I would not have done that.
Chris Maher (22:50):
Mike thank you for sharing that.
We appreciate it.
.
Mike Paciello (22:53):
So I mean, I think that was that was
important.
So now I've I've kind of goneinto semi-retirement at about
2016.
I sold the company 2017, but Ikind of went into
semi-retirement until last year,until 2020.
What year is it?
2024, yeah.
And I was actually beingapproached in 2023 because I was
(23:17):
doing a lot of work with theoverlay companies, the
AccessiBes of the world, theUserWays, and then AudioEye, and
I was doing that as an adjunctwith the National Federation for
the Blind.
And we were just trying to geteverybody to get on the same
page, get everybody together.
There was a lot of contentionthat was going on and, long
story short, the offer that Igot that was made to me by
(23:40):
AudioEye gave me the opportunityto do what I think needed to be
done, and that is get into abusiness where AI, automation
and scale were key components ofthe company.
The fact that AudioEye waspublic and, you know, and had
the reputation that it had, atleast in terms of the public and
at least in terms of, you know,the stock market and the market
(24:03):
and the business market, andDavid Mirati, who is the CEO and
himself a serial entrepreneur,was very successful, has been
very successful, was intriguingto me.
It wasn't the main reason why Iwent, but it was very
intriguing to me.
It gave me a reason for gettingback into the workspace.
But those were from a businessperspective.
(24:24):
Those are the big pieces.
I really believe that our worldof accessibility and enhancing
software and web, regardless ofwhat platform that it lies on,
and making it usable andaccessible to people with
disabilities, we're doing agreat job through the TPGs of
(24:44):
the world, but we can't scale,we cannot keep up with it.
It's just, and I don't knowthat we ever will unless we
start to automate as much as wepossibly can, still keeping our
eyes on it, like any goodaccessibility company would,
watching what's being donethrough the automation, having
it QA checked, have it usertested.
(25:07):
But I really do think that theonly way we're going to be able
to keep up with mainstreamindustry, which we're in a
digital economy, everything wedo is web-oriented, right?
It's internet-hosted in oneform or another.
You're just talking aboutbillions, if not approaching
(25:29):
trillions, of businesses now,whose whole business is built on
that, whether it's governmentservices, whether it's banking,
whether it's travel, whatevereducation, whatever industry,
whatever vertical market youwant to call out everybody's in
the digital economy.
And if that stuff isn't usableand accessible to people with
disabilities, what good is it tothem?
How are they going to use it?
What are we going to do whenthe curb cuts that we naturally
(25:50):
see on the streets are no longerthere pretty much because
everybody's living in theirhomes?
Chris Maher (25:57):
My guess is that you feel that the part of the
market that you're in today hasa very long runway.
There's immense opportunity,but we also need to continue to
invest, right.
Mike Paciello (26:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
David and his partners and ourinvestments in AudioEye, that
obviously we're publicly traded,so that's a huge piece of it.
You've seen a lot of the moneythat's gone into Evinced, into
Level Access, AudioEye.
I mean not AudioEye I meanAccessiBe.
They have their, their own,their own means.
UserWay got got acquired by M&Awith Level Access, and I
(26:36):
believe Deque has has their ownfunding resources.
I know a lot of it is privatethrough Preeti's, through
Preeti's family, but yeah, yougot to have investment.
We're never going to be able tomove forward, we're not going
to be able to take the emergingtechnologies that are there,
work with them and enhance themfor accessibility without
further investment.
Kelvin Crosby (26:55):
This is something that is very important.
As we say it, we're not waitingfor change, we're investing in
change, and that is truly whyit's so important for the
podcast and for SamaritanPartners and others to really
(27:15):
show that this growth is goingto boom.
It cannot boom, it cannot, itcannot boom.
I mean, it's just there for thegrabbings and there for
providing the resources.
And I think we're in a time andthis is why I keep saying we're
at the top, almost at the topof Mount Everest.
(27:38):
The question is how are we goingto come down?
Are we going to come down flatand just fall off the mountain?
Are we going to actually workthe and just really just fall
off the mountain?
Are we going to actually workthe way down and make the change
and really embrace this process?
Because in the world, in thiswhole world, especially the
digital side, we're reallymaking leaps and bounds because
(28:03):
of AI, because of creating thesenew opportunities and so forth.
But, Mike, what you're seeingand what I'm saying, like would
you agree or disagree, or howwould you kind of evaluate what
I'm saying?
Mike Paciello (28:17):
Well, your version of the bottom of the
mountain and my version aredifferent.
How's that?
Kelvin Crosby (28:23):
All right.
Mike Paciello (28:24):
I think where we're headed is to a point in
time where we won't call itaccessibility anymore.
It won't be a specialization,it will be built into the very
fiber of whatever interface, youknow, whatever platform we're
all we're all using, and AIcertainly will be a key
component to that, I believe, orat least a key contributor to
(28:47):
it.
I'm not even sure it's the, Idon't believe that it is the
panacea of solutions, but Ibelieve it is a great help, it's
a great tool for enhancing evenaccessibility.
So I think the bottom of themountain looks more like what I
used to call years ago and morerecently I've been talking about
invisible accessibility.
(29:09):
It's there, it's built into theinterface.
And not only that, it'spervasive, and I know this will
probably get some folks maybe alittle bit disturbed, especially
those with disabilities,because it comes off Jacob
Nielsen- like, if you know, someof the things that he's been
writing about aroundself-adapting interfaces, where
(29:30):
AI will be a big part of thatand generative AI will be a
contributor to that.
But I do believe that we willpush to a time where the
interface, the web, the software, the computer interface, will
adapt to the user, rather thanusers having to use adaptive and
assistive technology.
That to me is the panacea nextto everyone no more blind people
(29:55):
, no more deaf people, no morepeople in wheelchairs, because
the medical field, the healthfield has reached, you know, a
panacea in and of itself.
Chris Maher (30:04):
Well, It's a wonderful vision.
I hope you're right, and itsounds like Mike, as we wrap up
here and before we say goodbye,you know we've had a couple of
guests on the show that havetalked about disability-driven
innovation, inclusive oruniversal design.
It sounds like what you'retalking about is a little bit
more than that.
Mike Paciello (30:30):
Yeah well, it is inclusive and it's universal in
the fact that you should be ableto go anywhere, anytime, any
place, and use whateverinterface you're using and it
adapts to the user.
So in that sense that's, that'spervasively inclusive.
But it shouldn't matter on thepersona type or the user type.
The fact that I'm a userwithout a disability will have
(30:50):
no more meaning in terms offeatures of functionality than a
person who is blind or deaf,because the interface will do
all that self-adapting, and Ireally truly believe that that
exists, that that possibilityexists.
I've already seen it inremnants of other research to
(31:11):
push it
Chris Maher (31:12):
Getting back to kind of the investment side.
I think we're relatively earlyin the curve of that and I think
that the investment that comesin now is going to take
advantage of developing thattype of world and I think not
only will the social impact beat significant scale but also
the economic returns can besignificant as well.
Mike Paciello (31:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I totally agree.
Chris Maher (31:36):
So, Mike, before we let you go, how can people
learn more about you, your work,your company?
Please share where they canfind more information about that
.
Mike Paciello (31:46):
Yeah, sure, so I've got, you know, a second
life, got two lives going onhere, so I've got my AudioEye
life.
So you can contact me atAudioEye.
I'm on LinkedIn, all the socialnetworks.
Just look up Mike Paciello,you'll find me.
My email is michael.
paciello@ audioeye.
com.
Feel free to ping me anywaythere.
And AudioE ye is, you know,pretty pervasive in terms of the
(32:10):
web anyway.
If you want to contact meprivately, I have WebAble.
It's up and running.
It's a whole different kind ofbusiness.
It's basically an AI-generatednews aggregate for accessibility
and disability news.
That's what I do there and myemail address is mpaciello@
webable.
com.
Or, again, you could just lookme up on LinkedIn, Facebook, you
(32:30):
know, X, all of the socialnetworks, just look up Mike
Paciello and find me there.
Kelvin Crosby (32:36):
So we want to know are you on TikTok?
Mike Paciello (32:38):
I'm not on TikTok ,
Kelvin Crosby (32:41):
I'm visualizing you dancing.
Chris Maher (32:48):
No, no, no don't.
Mike Paciello (32:48):
No, don't, because that's the only thing I
don't do.
Chris Maher (32:50):
Well, thank you, Mike.
You're the best my friend.
Thank you for spending sometime with us and we hope to see
you soon
Mike Paciello (32:57):
It's been great being with you and Kelvin.
I appreciate the time.
Kelvin Crosby (33:02):
Alright, that wraps up Investing in
Accessibility and, as I alwayssay, go live beyond your
challenges and we'll see you intwo weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
(33:22):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(33:46):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all, by Investing inAccessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
It's so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
(00:28):
Today's a beautiful day in theneighborhood and I'm so excited
that you're here At Investing inAccessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and let's get the guy that
smells like lemons in here today.
Chris Maher, how you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:42):
Hey, Kelvin, how are you, m y friend?
Good to be with you, as always.
Kelvin Crosby (00:47):
Yeah, I couldn't resist that intro after I'm
smelling like coconut trying totake care of my skin.
The last time I met you inperson, you smelled like lemons,
so I was like you know, thiscould be a really interesting
intro
Chris Maher (01:00):
There you go, there you go.
Well, you know you're takingcare of yourself.
I like that.
That's a good thing.
Kelvin Crosby (01:06):
Well, hey, we got to live beyond our challenges
somehow, right, yep.
Anyway, so today we got anawesome guest today.
One thing is this guy had beenrocking the accessibility world
for years and has done somechanges in the world.
That man I'm like just soinspired by, truly by just the
(01:31):
thoughts and the ideas and thecreativity and being able to
bring people together to createdigital accessibility in many
different ways, but I truly amexcited about this.
So, Chris, why don't youintroduce us to our guest and
what is he all about?
Chris Maher (01:48):
You got it.
It's my pleasure to introduceour guest today, who I had the
good fortune of meeting when Ifirst launched Samaritan
Partners the fund.
But our guest today and I'llget into that story in a second
but our guest today is my goodfriend, Mike Paciello, who's the
Chief Accessibility Officer atAudioEye and one of the all-time
(02:09):
good guys.
So, Mike, welcome to the showtoday.
Mike Paciello (02:13):
Hey guys, listen, you're way, way, way, way too
many kudos and nice statements.
I'm not nearly as good as youguys are exclaiming.
Chris Maher (02:23):
Well, you're selling yourself short.
And the quick story on how Mikeand I met it was probably, I
think, about six weeks after Ihad officially launched
Samaritan Partners and I went tothe M- Enabling Conference in
the DC area and this was Octoberof 2023.
And Mike was kind and generousenough to take a meeting with me
(02:44):
and we sat down and kind of inlike the lobby area and Mike,
that was the start of, for me,just a wonderful relationship
and what has become a friendship, because, again, you've just
been so generous with your timeand your mentorship and your
advice to me as I was gettingSamaritan off the ground.
And now it's whenever I see youout and about because you're at
(03:04):
every industry event, it seemslike and whenever we bump into
each other it just brings asmile to my face when I see you.
But again, you've been so kindto me and so generous with your
time and your advice, and so Ithank you for that and it's
wonderful to have you here today.
Mike Paciello (03:18):
Hey, listen it's a privilege for me to be here
honestly and, Chris, therelationship that you and I have
has been nothing but positive,and I just run into so many
colleagues and friends in thisfield of accessibility.
It's hard now for me to say,hey, you need to touch base with
Chris Maher, see if there'ssomething that he can do there.
So, yeah, this is great.
I'm excited.
Chris Maher (03:36):
Well thank you, thank you for that.
Let's start off because youhave had, as far as I can tell,
one of the longest careers inaccessibility and in and around
the disability community, and soI think where we start is if
you could just give us a summaryof that arc of your journey,
both entrepreneurially andprofessionally, and then we'll
(03:58):
kick things off from there.
But let's start with kind ofyour background and that journey
that you've been on.
Mike Paciello (04:03):
Yeah, so my career goes back to the early
80s, 83, 84, mid 80s, if youwant.
I worked for a fairly largecomputer company at that time,
Digital Equipment Corporation,which has since been absorbed by
HP.
So I guess it started there.
Believe it or not, I started inthe stock room.
That was my first job wasworking in the stock room.
(04:24):
But I was in an environmentwhere it was all computer
technology and I was just, likeyou know, a sponge soaking up
knowledge as I went and readevery book, took every possible
computer course that that DECtaught there.
And about two years into it Iwas approached by one of my
managers.
I went from the stockroom intotechnical writing and going into
(04:47):
technical writing, not only wasit, it went back to some of my
own roots as a sports journalistand writer when I was in school
.
So I got to write again.
I get to, you know, key up onthat passion.
My manager as a writer came tome and said hey, mike, we've got
this project.
It's kind of a volunteer thing,but if you do it, you know it
(05:09):
would be a big help.
And the project involved takingour print documentation,
computer documentation, down tothe National Braille Press in
Boston and then they would takethe printed books and ultimately
convert them into Braille.
That's how I got started.
So this is like 83, 84-ish Ithink, when I got started at
(05:31):
that level.
Kelvin Crosby (05:32):
What was your first impression of the Braille
embossing?
Mike Paciello (05:35):
It's funny that you bring that up, because I
went down there and the directorat that particular time was
Bill Reeder and Bill said hey,Mike, while you're here, would
you like me to give you a tourof the place?
Now keep in mind, if you couldtry to keep these two stories,
I've got a career that I'm as atechnical writer and now
learning the starting aspects ofmarkup language for electronic
(05:57):
documents.
Goldfarb had just inventedGencode.
It wasn't even being calledSGML, which is the Standard
Generalized Markup Language.
Sorry if I'm getting a littletechnical here, at that time,
but I was just starting with it.
So I've got that going on andnow I'm with Bill and he's
giving me this, you know,lifecycle journey of how they
(06:18):
take printed documentation andconvert that into Braille, which
at that time was they would usehumans behind Braille
typewriters and do that and thenset it up for the typesetter,
keeping in mind that what Ithink the average ratio of a
print page to Braille is threeto one.
So for every single print page,there's three Braille pages that
(06:43):
these folks had to commit.
You get that done, converted,and then you push that to a
printer, a printing press thatin and of itself you know, with
Braille printer and the binderyand everything.
And I said to myself, justlooking at that process, this is
crazy.
I mean it would take years insome cases.
(07:04):
Some of the books that weproduced at DEC were 700, 800
pages and they were multiplevolumes.
So it would take them yearssometimes to produce a single
volume in Braille.
For maybe at that time, whoknows, maybe 40, 50, 100 users
who actually used, you know,digital computer systems
(07:26):
anywhere and I thought this iscrazy.
Chris Maher (07:30):
And, Mike, was it that experience where you were
like I'm hooked, Like this, thisis the direction I want to go
around accessibility?
Or did it take a couple moreexperiences to where you just
committed yourself essentiallyfull time to it?
Mike Paciello (07:43):
No, no no, that was the hook.
That was the hook.
I got excited about it rightaway because again now I'm
learning electronic markuplanguages in documentation.
This is what I do.
So I say, I think, who knowswhy a bolt of lightning or
something said.
I wonder if I can take what I'mdoing here with markup
(08:07):
languages, which at that time wewere outputting them to
PostScript, which is a, you know, the predecessor of PDF.
Okay, again, it gives you howold I really am.
If I could do that and get itto these printers, why can't I
do the same thing for Brailleprinters?
That got me hooked and it'simmediately.
(08:28):
So I just started doing someresearch about others that were
blind in the technology field,learning about Braille
translation.
So I taught myself that.
I learned a lot more aboutmarkup languages and that led to
me meeting George Kirscher I'msure Kelvin, you know George
right, he's very well known inthis field.
(08:52):
He had a small little startupbusiness called Computerized
Books for the Blind at thatparticular time and George and I
got together.
We formed an internationalworking group of other
colleagues in the field.
Our first meeting was inWashington DC at a conference
(09:12):
that was hosted by Judge LeonardSahanek, which this is another
whole story in and of itself,but ultimately that led us to
meeting at CSUN, which I knowyou guys both know right, which
was my first time going to thatconference, which I think was in
88, 1988.
And the conference started like85.
So it goes back that long.
And we launched thatInternational Committee for
(09:32):
Accessible Document Design,ultimately created what's called
a document type definition, ora DTD, for defining how to
convert a print documentelectronically, how to mark it
up and code it and now put it toget this not just Braille, but
large text and voice-ready files, documentation.
Kelvin Crosby (09:52):
What's amazing is like you hear these stories of,
like, the growth of Braille andthen coming into the digital
industry, because what you'retalking about is truly how this
transformed the visual impairedworld and being able to get
access, but it not only did itcreate access for visually
(10:15):
impaired people, but alsocreated access for a lot of
other people, and this is thebeginning of that process.
And I feel like this is thebottom of the Mount Everest,
that we are almost to the peakand how truly, like the way you
explained it, it's like wow, wedefinitely made some hurdles.
(10:36):
So what was that turning pointwhere you're like we did this,
like we have been able to makeit digital for people who are
visually impaired to be able toaccess, for a large print and
audio files?
Mike Paciello (10:49):
Yeah, that's a great question, Kelvin, exactly
when I mean it led to us.
We, that working group, workedfor a good two to three years to
get that specification right,doing a lot of user testing with
users.
You made made a great point.
It's not just for the blind,not just for the low vision.
You know, when you think aboutpeople who are quote unquote
print impaired and includes anyindividual, say, for example,
(11:12):
they may be missing hands andfingers, they can't turn pages.
It affected the lives ofindividuals with certain
cognition disabilities too,right around Braille.
So they may not be, they maynot be using Braille, but they
may be using large text or theymight be even using voice ready.
This is before Dragon.
I would say it was in the early90s I think around 92, 93, when
(11:33):
we had a specification that wegot released.
It got adopted by the AmericanAssociation of Publishers and
became their DTD for producingaccessible documentation by all
of the standards committees thatinvolved it.
It also, if you don't know,this, was the predecessor for
making the web accessiblethrough the HTML specification.
(11:58):
We merged the reference spec ofthe iCAD DT D into the html 3.0
specification.
That's how all that, that's howthat all all came about.
Chris Maher (12:10):
And mike at what point did all of this trigger
you on your own entrepreneurialjourney to found companies and
to build companies and to sellcompanies?
I'd love to get a little bit ofinsight into that, because
you've been a very successfulentrepreneur over the course of
your career.
Mike Paciello (12:29):
Really moving forward from 83 all the way up
to 96, 1996.
Actually it was before that.
In 1993, I started gettinginvolved at MIT with the Web
Consortium.
Accessibility is going out ofmy mind, I'm talking about it
and in 1990, 1996, I got laidoff.
(12:51):
Actually I didn't get laid off.
Digital sold my division.
I was approached because I wasmanaging basically what was
going on at MIT at thatparticular time around
accessibility.
I was just kind of leading it Ishouldn't say managing, I was
just leading it.
And they said hey look, do youthink we could put a project
together?
I said absolutely, because thegovernment's going to fund it.
(13:13):
In Europe by that time.
Now the TIDE initiative saidthey would be interested in
funding it.
So Jim Miller, myself, DanyaDadyek we got together.
We wrote a business plan for itand then launched the Web
Accessibility Initiative at theW3C in 1997.
That really led to me going offon my own.
(13:34):
Two significant events tookplace.
One was one of the fathers ofSGML, Yuri Rubinsky.
Yuri owned a company out ofToronto called SoftQuad and they
made one of the first graphicaleditors for SGML electronic
documentation.
But they also made the veryfirst graphical application for
(13:58):
making webpages.
And so Yuri was very much intoaccessibility, as were a lot of
the folks at MIT at thatparticular time.
Yuri dies in 96.
I get asked, I have no idea why,I get asked to be the director,
executive director, of thefoundation built in his name.
That was when I wrote thespecification, finished it with
(14:22):
the Yuri Rubinsky InsightFoundation and launched it as a
member of that.
Ultimately, I know this isgoing kind of fast, Ultimately,
the foundation ran out offunding and so I had to go start
my own business and all I knewwas web accessibility.
So the first company I foundedwas based on a website that I
(14:43):
already had up and running but Ibelieve was the very first web
accessibility portal calledWebAble, which I still to this
day have.
It's got a whole differentsecond life, but that's what it
was.
And launching that led to somemeetings with a couple of people
who reached out to me aboutstarting up a web business.
(15:05):
That was my first foray into,or introduction into, the
entrepreneurial world ofstartups at that particular time
.
Chris Maher (15:15):
Mike, was that when you founded The Paciello Group,
or was there something before?
Mike Paciello (15:18):
No, no, TPG wasn't founded for almost eight
or nine years later.
Chris Maher (15:24):
Gotcha.
Kelvin Crosby (15:25):
Mike, this has been fascinating.
I mean, I truly am just kind ofblown away how you built up
your career into theaccessibility world and
everything like this and then,as you kind of started getting
more and more, you realize youknow I'm going to need to go
start my own company and reallymake this really digital
(15:45):
accessibility really happen.
Kind of tell us that journeyand what was that like and how
did you start the company?
Mike Paciello (15:54):
Yeah.
So a couple of things I thinkreally were important.
I already had been in theaccessibility business for a
number of years by this time,you know, 10, 12, 13 years.
So I already had a reputation,a resume around the industry.
So that that was, that wasimportant.
If you're going to, not like itwas my intent to build my own
(16:15):
brand, but ultimately that'swhat happens is you build a
resume, you build a reputation,you get involved with your
industry, you make contributionsto that industry and you get a
good reputation resume from that.
That led to some VCs, to behonest, with you, approaching me
and asking me if I'd beinterested in, you know,
(16:37):
starting up, basically thatparticular time was, you know,
portals were really important,right, really really popular.
That was at the web bubble, webportal bubble stage and phase
back in 90s.
You know now we're talkingabout 98, 99, in 1998, 99.
So I got invited throughanother individual that I had
formed a partnership with to gomake a presentation to Motorola
(17:01):
Ventures down in Boston.
And remember this is now, I'mone of, I don't know I had made
the cut somehow just through,because I wrote up the proposal
of building a business on this.
They had it.
I'd made the cut down to thefinal 10.
I was blown away by that, to behonest with you.
And then they came in and hadme come in and make this
(17:21):
presentation.
So I make the pitch.
Functionally it is a pitch tofund the business.
How much I need what I've gotgoing in terms of active
business that particular time,which was really a bit of
consulting, ironically enough,but a lot of it was sponsorship
dollars for the portal itself.
And I say a lot.
We're talking less than$100,000 a year.
(17:43):
You know in terms, but that wasgood enough back in the 90s
that worked for me.
I keep myself going.
Made the presentation, made thepitch in front of this, you
know, table all these guysaround it, all the investors and
private equity folks there.
And then I get a call two dayslater saying we want you to come
(18:03):
in, we want to talk about doingan agreement.
Right, I was blown away.
First time I'd ever done it.
I came in.
Now this is where lesson twocomes in.
So now I'm sitting down withthe head of Motorola Ventures at
that particular time, who alsowas the son of the CEO of
Motorola at that particular timeas well.
Russell was the son of the CEOof Motorola at that particular
time as well.
He's got this group of lawyersand technologists and
(18:27):
accountants and business people,everything all the way across
the board, and he came right outand says, Mike, we love your
pitch, love the idea, love thewhole concept of you know,
helping people with disabilities, building awareness that we
like what the portal is and,most important, we love your
brand.
That's it.
Everything else about yourbusiness, your finances, your
business partner, yoursponsorship, your whole business
(18:50):
model, your business plan, it'sno good.
Which is why we're here.
And this is the important pointfor entrepreneurs and people.
We're here to help you.
We're gonna surround you,you're the brand, you're the
name, but we're gonna surroundyou with the best of the best in
accounting, legal, you knowpatent people, you know things
(19:10):
of that nature, our financialinvestors, and we're going to
show you and teach you how tobuild a profitable entity.
And that was huge.
So that was the lesson Ilearned.
The best thing you can do issurround yourself with people
who are smarter, brighter, evenmore entrepreneurial than you
are, and that is what I did withthose folks right there at
(19:32):
Motor World Adventures.
Chris Maher (19:33):
A great insight for entrepreneurs.
It's one thing to take capital,but to take capital it also
brings value to the table, iswhere it can really benefit you.
Kelvin Crosby (19:45):
Well, I mean, if you think about we talked about
this in the last episode andwhat that means is like, if
you're going to take in VC money, having that team around you,
what is that VC money going toreally do for you from an
investment standpoint?
And I think that is huge, huge,huge, huge, and I'm so glad you
(20:05):
brought that up, Mike, andreally brought that forward.
Chris Maher (20:09):
So, mike, then you go on and you found the
Passiello Group and you have agood exit with that after a
number of years of running that.
And the amazing brand of TPGIlives today and that business
has grown and scaled.
But your position today, yourjob today at AudioEye as Chief
(20:30):
Accessibility Officer, which isa public company in the digital
accessibility space, on aprevious episode Kelvin and I
talked about an example of wherethere has been significant
investment and there arestarting to have exits or
outcomes in an area ofaccessibility, and we talked
about digital accessibility.
But I'd love for you to diginto the work you're doing at
(20:50):
AudioEye and the landscapethat's going on there, and your
insights would be wonderful.
Mike Paciello (20:56):
I don't want to leave the story of TPG off the
table because that is a successand that is what I consider my
biggest feather in my cap.
I mean, I did launch the WebAccessibility Initiative and
everything like that, but thebiggest feather in my cap was
TPG.
And that was again because ofthe same notion of I surrounded
myself.
I built a company that wasliterally grassroots, that was
(21:19):
self-funded, based on my ownmoney at that particular time,
but I surrounded myself with thebest, literally to this day I
still believe that, the bestexperts in the world.
So I had the best teamsurrounding me In order to build
that brand that became TPG.
And that is the very reason whythe investors from Vector and,
(21:41):
of course, through the auspicesof Vispero, acquired TPG versus
Deque or Level Access thatparticular time, which was a
Level Access they were SSB atthat particular still that
particular time, because TPG'sbrand was so well known
worldwide and we had a qualityabout the company that I believe
(22:04):
still exists today and I thinkis crucial to any business, and
that is people trusted us.
Everything that came from uswas based on trust marketing and
truth and transparency.
That's huge.
And I'll bring that back toyour question in this world that
I'm in today where AudioEyeexists.
(22:25):
Chris, in just a second.
But I just want to make surethat I give kudos to all the
folks at TPG and Vispero andVector, because my exit was very
successful.
It was a forced exit, but notforced because of business.
It was my wife.
My first wife was dying ofbrain cancer and I had to stop
so I could stay home and takecare of her.
(22:45):
That was the only reason why Isold it, otherwise I would never
.
I would not have done that.
Chris Maher (22:50):
Mike thank you for sharing that.
We appreciate it.
.
Mike Paciello (22:53):
So I mean, I think that was that was
important.
So now I've I've kind of goneinto semi-retirement at about
2016.
I sold the company 2017, but Ikind of went into
semi-retirement until last year,until 2020.
What year is it?
2024, yeah.
And I was actually beingapproached in 2023 because I was
(23:17):
doing a lot of work with theoverlay companies, the
AccessiBes of the world, theUserWays, and then AudioEye, and
I was doing that as an adjunctwith the National Federation for
the Blind.
And we were just trying to geteverybody to get on the same
page, get everybody together.
There was a lot of contentionthat was going on and, long
story short, the offer that Igot that was made to me by
(23:40):
AudioEye gave me the opportunityto do what I think needed to be
done, and that is get into abusiness where AI, automation
and scale were key components ofthe company.
The fact that AudioEye waspublic and, you know, and had
the reputation that it had, atleast in terms of the public and
at least in terms of, you know,the stock market and the market
(24:03):
and the business market, andDavid Mirati, who is the CEO and
himself a serial entrepreneur,was very successful, has been
very successful, was intriguingto me.
It wasn't the main reason why Iwent, but it was very
intriguing to me.
It gave me a reason for gettingback into the workspace.
But those were from a businessperspective.
(24:24):
Those are the big pieces.
I really believe that our worldof accessibility and enhancing
software and web, regardless ofwhat platform that it lies on,
and making it usable andaccessible to people with
disabilities, we're doing agreat job through the TPGs of
(24:44):
the world, but we can't scale,we cannot keep up with it.
It's just, and I don't knowthat we ever will unless we
start to automate as much as wepossibly can, still keeping our
eyes on it, like any goodaccessibility company would,
watching what's being donethrough the automation, having
it QA checked, have it usertested.
(25:07):
But I really do think that theonly way we're going to be able
to keep up with mainstreamindustry, which we're in a
digital economy, everything wedo is web-oriented, right?
It's internet-hosted in oneform or another.
You're just talking aboutbillions, if not approaching
(25:29):
trillions, of businesses now,whose whole business is built on
that, whether it's governmentservices, whether it's banking,
whether it's travel, whatevereducation, whatever industry,
whatever vertical market youwant to call out everybody's in
the digital economy.
And if that stuff isn't usableand accessible to people with
disabilities, what good is it tothem?
How are they going to use it?
What are we going to do whenthe curb cuts that we naturally
(25:50):
see on the streets are no longerthere pretty much because
everybody's living in theirhomes?
Chris Maher (25:57):
My guess is that you feel that the part of the
market that you're in today hasa very long runway.
There's immense opportunity,but we also need to continue to
invest, right.
Mike Paciello (26:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
David and his partners and ourinvestments in AudioEye, that
obviously we're publicly traded,so that's a huge piece of it.
You've seen a lot of the moneythat's gone into Evinced, into
Level Access, AudioEye.
I mean not AudioEye I meanAccessiBe.
They have their, their own,their own means.
UserWay got got acquired by M&Awith Level Access, and I
(26:36):
believe Deque has has their ownfunding resources.
I know a lot of it is privatethrough Preeti's, through
Preeti's family, but yeah, yougot to have investment.
We're never going to be able tomove forward, we're not going
to be able to take the emergingtechnologies that are there,
work with them and enhance themfor accessibility without
further investment.
Kelvin Crosby (26:55):
This is something that is very important.
As we say it, we're not waitingfor change, we're investing in
change, and that is truly whyit's so important for the
podcast and for SamaritanPartners and others to really
(27:15):
show that this growth is goingto boom.
It cannot boom, it cannot, itcannot boom.
I mean, it's just there for thegrabbings and there for
providing the resources.
And I think we're in a time andthis is why I keep saying we're
at the top, almost at the topof Mount Everest.
(27:38):
The question is how are we goingto come down?
Are we going to come down flatand just fall off the mountain?
Are we going to actually workthe and just really just fall
off the mountain?
Are we going to actually workthe way down and make the change
and really embrace this process?
Because in the world, in thiswhole world, especially the
digital side, we're reallymaking leaps and bounds because
(28:03):
of AI, because of creating thesenew opportunities and so forth.
But, Mike, what you're seeingand what I'm saying, like would
you agree or disagree, or howwould you kind of evaluate what
I'm saying?
Mike Paciello (28:17):
Well, your version of the bottom of the
mountain and my version aredifferent.
How's that?
Kelvin Crosby (28:23):
All right.
Mike Paciello (28:24):
I think where we're headed is to a point in
time where we won't call itaccessibility anymore.
It won't be a specialization,it will be built into the very
fiber of whatever interface, youknow, whatever platform we're
all we're all using, and AIcertainly will be a key
component to that, I believe, orat least a key contributor to
(28:47):
it.
I'm not even sure it's the, Idon't believe that it is the
panacea of solutions, but Ibelieve it is a great help, it's
a great tool for enhancing evenaccessibility.
So I think the bottom of themountain looks more like what I
used to call years ago and morerecently I've been talking about
invisible accessibility.
(29:09):
It's there, it's built into theinterface.
And not only that, it'spervasive, and I know this will
probably get some folks maybe alittle bit disturbed, especially
those with disabilities,because it comes off Jacob
Nielsen- like, if you know, someof the things that he's been
writing about aroundself-adapting interfaces, where
(29:30):
AI will be a big part of thatand generative AI will be a
contributor to that.
But I do believe that we willpush to a time where the
interface, the web, the software, the computer interface, will
adapt to the user, rather thanusers having to use adaptive and
assistive technology.
That to me is the panacea nextto everyone no more blind people
(29:55):
, no more deaf people, no morepeople in wheelchairs, because
the medical field, the healthfield has reached, you know, a
panacea in and of itself.
Chris Maher (30:04):
Well, It's a wonderful vision.
I hope you're right, and itsounds like Mike, as we wrap up
here and before we say goodbye,you know we've had a couple of
guests on the show that havetalked about disability-driven
innovation, inclusive oruniversal design.
It sounds like what you'retalking about is a little bit
more than that.
Mike Paciello (30:30):
Yeah well, it is inclusive and it's universal in
the fact that you should be ableto go anywhere, anytime, any
place, and use whateverinterface you're using and it
adapts to the user.
So in that sense that's, that'spervasively inclusive.
But it shouldn't matter on thepersona type or the user type.
The fact that I'm a userwithout a disability will have
(30:50):
no more meaning in terms offeatures of functionality than a
person who is blind or deaf,because the interface will do
all that self-adapting, and Ireally truly believe that that
exists, that that possibilityexists.
I've already seen it inremnants of other research to
(31:11):
push it
Chris Maher (31:12):
Getting back to kind of the investment side.
I think we're relatively earlyin the curve of that and I think
that the investment that comesin now is going to take
advantage of developing thattype of world and I think not
only will the social impact beat significant scale but also
the economic returns can besignificant as well.
Mike Paciello (31:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I totally agree.
Chris Maher (31:36):
So, Mike, before we let you go, how can people
learn more about you, your work,your company?
Please share where they canfind more information about that
.
Mike Paciello (31:46):
Yeah, sure, so I've got, you know, a second
life, got two lives going onhere, so I've got my AudioEye
life.
So you can contact me atAudioEye.
I'm on LinkedIn, all the socialnetworks.
Just look up Mike Paciello,you'll find me.
My email is michael.
paciello@ audioeye.
com.
Feel free to ping me anywaythere.
And AudioE ye is, you know,pretty pervasive in terms of the
(32:10):
web anyway.
If you want to contact meprivately, I have WebAble.
It's up and running.
It's a whole different kind ofbusiness.
It's basically an AI-generatednews aggregate for accessibility
and disability news.
That's what I do there and myemail address is mpaciello@
webable.
com.
Or, again, you could just lookme up on LinkedIn, Facebook, you
(32:30):
know, X, all of the socialnetworks, just look up Mike
Paciello and find me there.
Kelvin Crosby (32:36):
So we want to know are you on TikTok?
Mike Paciello (32:38):
I'm not on TikTok ,
Kelvin Crosby (32:41):
I'm visualizing you dancing.
Chris Maher (32:48):
No, no, no don't.
Mike Paciello (32:48):
No, don't, because that's the only thing I
don't do.
Chris Maher (32:50):
Well, thank you, Mike.
You're the best my friend.
Thank you for spending sometime with us and we hope to see
you soon
Mike Paciello (32:57):
It's been great being with you and Kelvin.
I appreciate the time.
Kelvin Crosby (33:02):
Alright, that wraps up Investing in
Accessibility and, as I alwayssay, go live beyond your
challenges and we'll see you intwo weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
(33:22):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(33:46):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all, by Investing inAccessibility.
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