December 2, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of Investing in Accessibility, co-hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher sit down with Angela Lean, Senior Accessibility Program Lead at Microsoft, for a powerful conversation about turning disability into a true competitive advantage. Angela shares her lived experience of having a stroke at age 12, how her perspective shifted from “succeeding despite disability” to “succeeding because of it,” and why she now sees disability as a core asset in her life and work.
Angela walks us through her unconventional career path—from answering phones in Senator Tom Harkin’s office just after the ADA passed, to shaping accessibility and AI initiatives inside one of the world’s largest tech companies. She explains how Microsoft is using AI to support employees with disabilities, improve tools like screen readers and captioning, and build services such as the Enterprise Disability Answer Desk. The conversation digs into why accessibility is not a cost center but a massive market opportunity touching 1.5 billion people, how entrepreneurs can plug into Microsoft’s ecosystem, and how AI can personalize work so that disabled and non-disabled people can use the same tools on an equal footing. If you care about inclusive innovation, the future of work, or investing in accessibility as good business—not just good intentions—this episode is for you.
Links & Resources:
Angela Lean: LinkedIn
Microsoft Accessibility Support for Customers: Website
Microsoft Marketplace: Website (trusted source for cloud solutions, AI app, and agents)
The Huddle for Families: Website
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners Podcast.
We're not waiting for change.
We're investing.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating more accessible world.
(00:31):
Hey, hey, hey, it's another beautiful day in the neighborhood and I'mso excited that you're here at
investing in accessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby.
And I got my co-host ChrisMaher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:41):
Good, Kelvin.
How are you, my friend?
It's good to see you and goodto be with you.
Kelvin Crosby (00:45):
Yeah, I'm I'm excited about today.
I mean, what's interesting isyour when your daughter was on
the episode last time, youknow, that was a lot of fun.
I still am trying to recoverfrom the restraint camp, you
know?
That is one thing I'm stilltrying to recover from.
Chris Maher (01:02):
I'm never gonna live that one down.
I still I still have likenightmares and night sweats when
I think about that.
It was all out of our love forour daughter and trying to help
her.
It may have been a littlemisguided, but we tried.
By the way, before we get intomore of that, where you make fun
of me, you had a birthdayrecently.
Kelvin Crosby (01:22):
I did.
Chris Maher (01:23):
You and I talked that day, but happy birthday,
buddy.
Kelvin Crosby (01:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
I'm trying to get younger, butit seems to not work.
But hey, it's what it is.
But uh yeah, I mean I'm reallyexcited on today's topic.
We're gonna begin the AIconversation.
Chris Maher (01:43):
Well, with that, Kelvin, I'm gonna introduce our
guest today.
It's a super treat.
And our guest today is AngelaLean, who's the Senior
Accessibility Program Lead atMicrosoft.
Welcome, Angela.
Angela Lean (01:54):
Thanks.
Nice to see you guys or talk toyou guys.
Chris Maher (01:56):
Yeah, good to have you with us.
And and so just a quick kind ofbackground on how Angela and I
met.
It was several months ago.
It was back, maybe back earlybeginning the summer, right?
Early, right?
Early summer.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah.
Chris Maher (02:10):
And we were both at a dinner for a wonderful
organization, a nonprofit calledTeach Access.
And I had the very good fortuneof sitting next to Angela at
dinner.
We hit it off and startedtalking about our family.
It was mostly about ourfamilies and our kids, and but I
just had such a wonderful,delightful evening with Angela.
And then we've just kind ofstayed in touch since.
(02:31):
And after a couple ofconversations, I said, I think
we need to have you on thepodcast to tell your story and
to talk about the work you'redoing.
So that's what we're gonna dotoday.
So Angela, let's start withyour lived experience and your
relationship to disability.
I think that's a really goodplace to start.
So let's begin there andthen we'll dig into things.
Angela Lean (02:51):
Yeah, no, sure.
I actually, so I am a member ofthe community.
I have a mobility challenge.
I had a stroke when I was 12.
I was jump roping on theplayground and I collapsed in
elementary school.
So spent some time in the ICUin the Jewel Rehab Hospital for
about five months, went back toschool.
Today I live with, I primarilyoperate with just full use of my
(03:14):
right arm.
And I also have an AFO on myleft leg.
So my left side has beenaffected pretty profoundly.
A lot of it's come back.
I'm ambulatory, I've had kids,I've been married, I work
full-time.
Like, so I'm very, I'm veryengaged, has not been as much of
a factor as some may think.
For those who don't live withdisabilities, may be a little
(03:34):
bit surprised, but you know,it's great, it's part of who I
am.
And I do remember, one story Iwas gonna tell, is I remember
having my son, my son's now 22.
When he was a toddler, I wasvery concerned with, he's my
firstborn, how he would thinkabout his mother being disabled.
And I remember being like, ohmy God, how am I gonna tell him?
I had his whole narrative goingwhen basically what I just told
you guys that you know, mommygot sick and she has this thing
(03:56):
and she's just different fromeverybody else, blah blah blah.
I remember he was just walkingand he walked by me and I was
sitting on the stairs and he sawmy AFO, my splint, which is
like basically a thing thatkeeps my ankle at a right angle.
And he walked over, he goes,Mom, what's he was barely
talking?
He's like, What is that?
And I remember telling him,like, I started this whole thing
about oh, mommy has adisability, she has a stroke,
(04:16):
blah, blah, blah.
He goes, Oh, that's nice, andwalked away.
So obviously it's a non, forthose who understand and like
know me, it's not an issue, it'sjust part of who I am.
And I think that story tellsin a great way of how it works.
Chris Maher (04:32):
Yeah.
And it speaks to just how kidsare amazing.
Right.
Like how they're so much betterabout inclusion and not letting
things be of concern to them.
I have a quick question.
You were 12 years old.
So my daughter, so she was bornwith what's called
(04:52):
polymicrogyria, which manifestsitself as a form of
spastic hemiplegia on her leftside.
She also wore an AFO fromprobably a year, year and a half
old until seventh grade whenshe had surgery on her gastroc
tendon to loosen that up.
But she never knew anydifferent.
And she talks about this, shealways knew that she was
(05:16):
different because she wore thebrace and the other kids didn't.
But for you, as they say, weretypical for your first 12 years.
And what was that experiencelike when you went back to
school after having the strokeand then having to go through
that long rehabilitationprocess?
I mean, I'm sure it was a itwas a physical challenge, but
I'm guessing it was probably apretty emotional challenge as
(05:37):
well.
Angela Lean (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think as a kid, you are more
resilient to your point.
I think it was, I put a lot ofpressure on myself.
I had pretty high expectationsfor my ability to compete or
perform or, you know, live up tosort of standards.
And I think that there was alot of pressure sort of
psychologically to like not missa beat.
I was sixth grade, so therewasn't that much that I was
(05:59):
missing, to be honest.
But I think, you know, I thinkit's part of my next sort of,
you know, in part of the prep, Iwas thinking, you know, as I
kind of went through high schooland I kind of transitioned into
college, I think that mydisability was always a deficit
that I was very proud ofovercoming, right?
So it's something that I wasreally like, hey, you know, I
went to Yale despite the factthat I had disability.
(06:21):
My narrative was all about sortof my personal experience and
how that affected my ability.
But I was still academically,you know, proficient or capable
and above average.
I was, you know, I was a champ.
But you know, what'sinteresting is I've gotten
older, I think the transitionhas now become my disability is
truly an asset.
Chris Maher (06:40):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (06:41):
So I flipped the narrative in my head from being
like, I am successful despite ofit.
Now I feel like I'msuccessful, and even more
successful, because of it.
And I'm not sure if that has todo with the fact that it was
the onset was when it was later,but I do think it was a very
interesting transition.
So it may not answer yourquestion per se, but I do think,
I did have the perspective ofwhat it meant to be sort of
(07:02):
completely functional in a waythat most people are.
Chris Maher (07:04):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (07:05):
And and it's being, I mean, there is a there is a
grief, a grieving process,right?
Because there's extremefrustration.
And I just think that I'velearned to cope with that
frustration in different ways asI've aged.
Kelvin Crosby (07:15):
I mean, I think one of the interesting things
you bring that up, like when Igot diagnosed with my Usher
syndrome, I was almost turningthirteen.
And you just try to overcomeit, you know.
And then as I've gotten overit, like how you talked about
it, it becomes who you are andit and it becomes an asset.
(07:38):
And I mean, in so manydifferent ways.
I'm seeing how it transformedmy life in a way that now I'm
able to do things that I neverwould have done if I could see,
you know.
You make a really good point,and I mean I think it's really
(07:59):
important to remember thatindividuals with disabilities,
and really it's a challenge.
But when you allow thechallenge to be all
encompassing, then it becomes, okay, I have to keep pushing through.
When you allow the challenge tobe, alright, I got
(08:30):
this and this is it.
Now, how how can I impact theworld with it?
Angela Lean (08:35):
Yeah, no, Kelvin, I'm totally 100% with you.
I talk about the tyranny of theshould or the standard, I
should say.
And I think when you acceptyourself for who you are and how
you perform, or just how youoperate is different.
It actually sparks resilienceand it sparks innovation.
So I think we often talk aboutsort of how important lived
(08:58):
experience at Microsoft isbecause we have folks using, you
know, who are quasi-testers,right?
So for example, we have one ofour lead designers on
PowerPoint, does a lot of workwith our blind community.
And they often look at featuresbefore they go out or after
they go out.
And what's so interesting isthey're actually showing him how
to look at PowerPoint from aconsumption perspective and a
(09:21):
blind consumption perspective.
Where he creates PowerPointfrom a designer perspective.
Chris Maher (09:26):
Right.
Angela Lean (09:26):
So the contrast is so telling in terms of sort of
how things land and how thingscan be used differently, even
for who he typically has themland with, right?
So I just it's such afascinating process, and that's
why I love what I do.
So I'm jumping a little bitforward.
Chris Maher (09:42):
No, no.
I mean, Angela, I love whatyou just said, and a few things
I'm just gonna kind of pull outand highlight because I think
there are common themes with alot of our guests and certainly
things that I look for inentrepreneurs and companies that
I invest in.
And so to hear you talk about,as someone who is right now at
(10:03):
one of the largest technologycompanies in the world, and
that's part of you know, youtalk about how it's important to
you, but it's certainlysomething, and we're gonna get
into this.
It sounds like it's also becomea part of the culture there at
Microsoft.
But, you know, the fact thatyou were like my mentality
changed from I was succeeding orachieving despite my disability
to now you feel like you'reachieving because of it.
And a good friend of mine, whoyou folks may may know, who's
(10:27):
gonna be a future guest on thepodcast, Diego Marascal, who
runs 2Gether International,which is an accelerator that
supports entrepreneurs withdisabilities, he talks about
disability as a competitiveadvantage all the time.
And I think that he has thatsame mentality of like, hey, we
are achieving and succeeding,not in spite of our disability,
but because of it, right?
(10:47):
Because it's teaching us thingslike being problem solvers,
being resilient, being adaptive,right?
Like that's all the stuff I sawin my daughter.
It's all the stuff I see,Angela, in you, in Kelvin, in
the entrepreneurs I speak to.
And those are good traits,certainly if you're an
entrepreneur and you're buildingbusinesses, but it's they're
just good traits for the game oflife as well.
Angela Lean (11:06):
Oh, yeah.
No, I'm I mean, I will say Ican Kelvin and I were just
chatting before we started,right?
About our ability to navigate asubway platform with a
disability.
Like, can we just talk aboutlife, like life skills?
Oh, yeah.
That's something we, Kelvin,you and I should put on our
resume.
We can get through a crowd witha key or with like nobody's
business, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I do also think so.
(11:26):
I mean, the way we look at itat Microsoft is, or one of the
ways we looked at it, the thedisability population, WHO said
is 1.3 billion people.
Okay, that is a market.
Yeah, that is a bigger marketthan most countries.
Okay, so let's just be reallyclear that we are consumers, we
are users of technology, we areinnovators, and we are
contributors to the world.
(11:46):
And everybody's gonna beaffected by disability.
So, not to get on my soapboxtoo early, but I do think it's
really important to think of usas an opportunity, right?
And as an asset, not just as anemployee, like an employee
base, but also as a consumer.
So people need to design thingsto be more inclusive and to
make the world different andbetter for that 1.3 billion
(12:06):
people because we're gonnachange the world.
Yep, right?
Chris Maher (12:09):
We're with you.
We're you're preaching to thechoir, my friend.
Kelvin Crosby (12:12):
We're driving.
You know, you don't want me toget all the oh oh churchy on.
I'm like, hey, yeah, amen.
Angela Lean (12:23):
Okay, but you can tell me how fun Calvin was.
Chris Maher (12:25):
So that's I know.
Well, I wanted it to surpriseyou.
Angela Lean (12:28):
Uh, very kind of you, although I did listen to
some of the banter from theearlier podcast.
Chris Maher (12:33):
Yeah, I told you we were gonna have some fun.
Angela Lean (12:35):
I think I did.
Yeah.
Chris Maher (12:36):
So so Angela, I think that's a good segue into
the the arc of your professionalcareer and how your lived
experience, you know, informed,directed that.
So you take it away and becauseit it is a fascinating arc of
your of your work experience.
And so I'd love for you to kindof take us through that.
And then I'm sure that Calvinand I are gonna have some
questions for you.
Angela Lean (12:57):
Yeah, so I don't think it's as much an arc or a
straight line as a zigzag.
So let's just be really clearthat my career path is not
traditional.
But I do think so, but youknow, college, I went to Yale as
an undergrad study.
History was not the mostpragmatic route for for
professions.
Then I went to DC because I waspretty politically active and
ended up working for TomHarkin's office, subcommittee
(13:20):
and disability policy in 1993,which is three years after the
ADA was passed.
Okay, and Tom Harkin, aseverybody knows, was the author
of the ADA.
So worked with this reallyinspiring community, a guy named
Bobby Silverstein, who wassadly passed, but he was a
lawyer.
I was literally thereceptionist.
And I sat there and I likeanswered phones from
(13:40):
constituents and wrote lettersabout the ADA.
And I think what was importantwas not so much what I was
doing, but sort of what Ilearned in terms of being part
of this community.
It was a community that I neverknew and a community that I
never really under, you know, Inever really felt a part of.
And I think it was sort of likemy my entree into sort of what
this could be.
Then I left because TC was notfor me.
(14:02):
Went to Asia, did some randomthings with my partner and then
who became my husband, and thencame back to get my MBA and then
did some tours of duty incorporate America.
So then I went to AMX, TMobile, a bunch of places.
Ended up back here at Microsoft15 years ago.
And I remember being like, Iwas being interviewed for my
first job, which was for miceand keyboards, so marketing for
(14:25):
mice and keyboards.
We had a whole line of hardwarearound that.
And the guy who wasinterviewing me was a gentleman
by the name of Stuart Ashman,who's a general manager.
So he was the as appropriate,which means he was a guy who's
approving my candidacy or mysort of, you know, my interview
loop.
And he says to me, Why, why areyou passionate about
technology?
And to be really honest withyou, I wasn't.
(14:45):
But then I told him, I said,because I am I'm a mom of two
toddlers and I use one hand andI work full time.
So the technology I use on myphone keeps me living.
It's my assistive technology ina sense that kind of keeps me
going because I can do bothwork, I can do personal things,
I keep in touch with my family.
It was actually a sidekick,which is really, really old fun
that people and I was like, itkeeps me going and it keeps me
(15:09):
operating with one hand and onthe fly.
Like I'm always moving.
And he's like, you know what,that's the best answer I've ever
gotten.
And I remember Stuart was likea GM for like 30 years.
I think he's in and out ofMicrosoft in terms of
consulting.
And I was so proud of myanswer.
And I didn't realize it wastook completely off the cuff.
I didn't realize, like, in whenI applied to business school, I
talked about sort of wanting towork with technology and sort
(15:31):
of disability and creatingassistive technology.
I didn't use that language, butthat's what I was sort of
conceptualizing.
And I didn't pursue it, butthen I realized that it just sat
with me.
And then after about 10 yearsin marketing and sales readiness
roles, I had the opportunity togo work for the Office of
Accessibility.
And I realized that this is mypassion, that I wanted to
actually be part of thiscommunity and move the ball
(15:52):
forward for Microsoft because itwas one of the biggest
platforms companies in the worldthat could really make a
difference.
And that's where I ended up inthe last five years.
Chris Maher (16:01):
Love it.
I love it.
I love how all that livedexperience kind of coalesced
with the work you're doingtoday.
So, can can you dig into yourwork?
I guess there's a couple thingsabout Microsoft, like the work
you're doing now, because you'reinvolved in some really cool
projects there, but you're alsoinvolved in some work outside of
Microsoft on boards.
(16:22):
And so let's start there beforewe get into kind of how I
believe Microsoft is is reallykind of a shining light and a
leader around accessibility.
I personally think it has a lotto do with some of the, you
know, starts with Satya Nadellabecause he has a little
experience with disability.
But let's start with you andyour role first, and then we'll
talk about the broaderMicrosoft.
Angela Lean (16:42):
Yeah.
So I think for the first fouryears on this team, I was
working on employee experience.
One of the cooler things I gotto work on was I did a survey of
our employees withdisabilities, and I said, What
are your biggest challenges?
Not in those words, but thatwas some of what we did.
And we found out thediscoverability of disability
and accessibility resources atthe company were very disparate
and hard for people to find.
(17:04):
So we were like, how do weaddress that?
Well, guess what?
AI is here.
So let's create a tool, anagent.
So I had I had the privilege,thank you.
That's a word I wanted to use,of actually creating an agent
for our employees that was basedon the disability resources
that we had at the company,whether it be how to navigate
self-ID or how to get anaccommodation or how to find
(17:26):
manager readiness tools aroundneurodiversity.
And it was actually pretty, itwas we did this last last year,
last fiscal.
So, like sort of it it launchedbasically in March and really
well received, not just by thedisability community because it
worked really well for folks,but by the engineering
community.
Because it was prettyprogressive in terms of saying,
hey, this is a solution forpeople who actually need the
(17:47):
information quickly, and itneeds to consolidate and sort of
tell not just the background onthe information we need for
problem solving, but how toaction it.
So it was a very sort of greatreal-life example of copilot and
how it can do that.
And then we actually took it astep further and we started
creating sort of our own sort ofUIs and sort of tracking so
that we could actually have alittle bit more customization.
(18:08):
Because copilot was great interms of the screen readers, but
not ideal.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (18:13):
So we actually had folks in our team do some
pressure testing and we createda different UI that we thought
was better for the screen readerexperience.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Very good.
Angela Lean (18:20):
Which I then I'm actually going to try to work
with partners to kind of createsort of the templates that
people can use because we wantto get sort of ahead of that
before Copilot might get there,right?
Copilot agent I'm talking aboutare students.
So again, like, you know, greatwork that's going on there, but
you know, right now they're notquite as custom for the screen
reader experience as we wantedto be.
And the part of the reason wecould do that was because I have
(18:42):
blind devs on my team who couldwho could work on that.
And I had users, testers on myteam who could give me real-time
feedback.
So that's actually a reallycool thing we did, a pretty
innovative um internal.
Chris Maher (18:52):
Um quick question on that.
The you said that it wasn'tjust the the employee population
with disabilities, but also theengineering team was finding it
very valuable.
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Angela Lean (19:05):
Yeah, it was just a very a different application of
AI that they hadn't seen.
And I think it was so it wasthe one of my exec sponsors for
the ERT is a leader in the inthe engineering team.
And he was just so excited tosee employees kind of like
rallying around sort of, youknow, our tools and trying to
make things work better for aninternal population.
You he actually, you know, wasvery committed to the to the
(19:26):
community, but I think you know,he was like, this is not just
good for the community, this isjust good for AI.
And it's great, it's a gooddemonstration of how we can use
our own tools to forward theexperience at Microsoft.
I think that's why he wasexcited.
And it was, you know, it wasjust it was a good project and
it was something that we can wetook initiative, and I think he
was just like, hey, this isgreat.
You guys are showing you we'rethe tip of the spear, right?
(19:46):
And he's like, How often is Imean, it's sort of like to our
conversation before about howwe're innovators, it was a great
showcasing of how thedisability community could be an
innovation engine, right?
Yeah for for not just ouremployees, but for our tools,
right?
Because I've demo demoed thatto like different advisory
boards that I'm on anddifferent, and they're all like
(20:06):
this is really cool, right?
And I think, and we also tookit and we customized it a little
bit further.
So we took it beyond sort ofwhat the out-of-the-box solution
was.
And I think you really likeseeing that because that can
ultimately inform the product,right?
Right.
Again, we're not quite thereyet, but we could get there in
the future because we're gonnatell the product team, sort of
this is what you know what we'reseeing from the disability
(20:27):
community.
Chris Maher (20:28):
Yeah, it sounds like Angela, it was very much
kind of an inclusive oruniversal design approach to
that.
Angela Lean (20:33):
Did you folks actually like it sounds like you
consciously brought the rightpeople to the table, but like do
you talk with language likethat or is it just we're very
much about shift left, or aboutsort of how you you should
design inclusively first or fromthe get-go, and not necessarily
you want to be you don't wantto be in the business of
remediation because it's soexpensive.
I mean, we all are, don't getme wrong, but like I think it's
(20:55):
we're just at that sort of likewe're at that shift until we get
to sort of you knowcomprehensive or universal
inclusive design, we're alwaysgonna be remediating, right?
And I think that's how we wantto be, obviously, but it's it's
just a reality of sort of wherewe are in the in the cycle.
And I think another really coolservice that we have that that
(21:16):
my our chief accessibilityofficer, Jenny Le Fleury, and
then my former manager NeilBarnett started with this
service called EDAD, which isEnterprise Disability Answer
Desk.
It's literally a support deskthat enterprise customers can
call into with their issuesaround products, right?
So it's very cool in terms ofjust sort of we get real-time
feedback from our customers andtheir employees.
(21:37):
Employees can also call into itfor their own reasons, but it's
enterprise, it's e-DAD.
And they take the bugs or thereports, the issues, and they
funnel it back to the productteams.
So we do what I did, but at asystematic and at a stack level
for for like whether it's Teamsor whether it's Windows Narrator
or whether it's so Xbox, that'smore of a consumer play,
(22:00):
whether it's M365, like so.
We're having a constantconversation around sort of what
are the issues affecting ourbroader customer set and their
employees who are disabled thatwe can track and we can actually
sort of hopefully get access tothat's fantastic.
Chris Maher (22:15):
Did you did that did the eDAT evolve in parallel
or after you were doing itinternally for employees?
And you're like, oh, wait, whywouldn't we do this something
similar for our customers?
Angela Lean (22:27):
It was it was it was in conjunction.
So we are still so we're in theoffice of accessibility, which
actually happens to sit in ourexternal affairs and legal
organization.
But like the team I'm now on,so I've moved on from employee
experience into a commercialfacing team, and I'm actually
doing sort of a lot of workaround new go-to-market
strategies and monetization forour accessibility offerings and
(22:50):
services, like EDAD.
I mean so, which will bring upsort of your question about
partners and innovation and allthat kind of good.
So we'll get there.
But and also on just figuringout sort of how we bring our so
our goal is how to actually howdo we actually try greater
assistive technology oraccessible technology.
Yeah.
Bring it through our salesteam, through our customers,
(23:11):
through sort of diffusion of ourtechnology.
Because you know, Microsoft isa leader in the enterprise
accessibility space.
And we also are, you know, ourtools are do have very, very
good accessibility features andsort of like, you know, like
just an approach toaccessibility that that not all
technology has.
I mean, we're not perfect byany means, but we actually have
(23:31):
a lot that I think really helpedthe world.
And it it letters up to ourmission, which is to empower
every organization individual.
That's kind of what's excitingabout being part of this team.
Kelvin Crosby (23:39):
Well, I mean what's interesting is like I've
I've been a Microsoft user forso many years and like and I I
like as you were br bringing upsome of the stuff, it's like
it's always been one of myfrustrations, like is being able
to build and build and buildthings out using certain things
(24:00):
and it's like alright, maybeI'll give this a second shot
because because w because one ofmy biggest struggles as a as a
visit and pay person is I'm I'mgood at building things and
creating things and I'm like Ijust want the opportunity, you
know?
And and so I'm always having tofind other w workarounds and
(24:22):
because something's not workingor whatever.
And like I remember early onwhen Office 365 was just kind of
coming out, I was wanting tobuild my own database and be
able to use like different appsand so forth and and be able to
all make it all talk to eachother, and I couldn't get the
screen readers to do it for youknow what, and I was just so
(24:46):
livid.
And so it's exciting to hearyou talk about this, like all
right, we're fixing these issueswith AI, and we're able to
really start making some massiveheadway as you are moving
forward in accessibility, 'causeI think one of the things in
the AI space that I think fromaccessibility standpoint, so
(25:09):
obviously one of the biggest tagthing is screen readers.
That's always one thing thatmost people are always working
on, make sure it's accessible toscreen readers.
But I I I want to kind of getoff of that for a second.
It is how are we using AI andMicrosoft that helps other
disabilities, likecolorblindness or some of the
(25:35):
like captioning, and then alsoeven just with physical
disabilities, like if you don'thave movement of your of your
hands, like how is what you guysare doing now starting
incorporating that?
I know we talk a lot aboutscreen readers, but I think this
area kind of gets missed a lot,and you guys are doing a lot of
(25:56):
work in this space.
Angela Lean (25:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think my answer to your question
is how are we not?
Right.
So just examples on my team.
I had one colleague who worksin DC in the policy area, she's
a director in policy, she'sdyslexic.
So she reads like you know, allthose things that come out of
like Congress and all thesepolicies.
She literally has said that shewill never take another job
without co-pilot or some sort ofthing that consolidates and
(26:18):
summarizes all the reading shehas to do.
It's made her so expeditious,like so efficient and so much
more um time time.
She's just so much better ather job because of it because
she's not struggling as much andjust the ease to which she does
that as one example, right?
I have another colleague who iscan't use either of her arms.
So she uses a lot of voice totext and she's a lot of AI.
(26:40):
I don't know exactly how sheuses it, but she basically has
said things that have taken herhours in the past now take her
minutes.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (26:46):
So if you can imagine the degree to which this
is impacting individuals in theday-to-day, right?
I mean, I think I mean that'swhat I think is the most amazing
part of it.
It's for all these differentuse cases and all these
different disabilities, it isall personalizing our abilities
to work, right, on the computerand digitally.
So it's gonna bringpersonalized assistance, brings
(27:07):
it at scale, and also brings itin a way that we can all use it
so it's a level playing field.
Because Chris is not mobilitychallenged, not visually
impaired.
Kelvin Crosby (27:15):
Can you wait?
Are you sure about this?
I I've been demanding.
I mean, he he's ran me into acouple tables and walls.
Apologize.
Angela Lean (27:27):
Well, but the my point is the three of us can use
the same tools and be equallyempowered.
That's my point.
So it's a very level, I mean,even with assistive technology,
even with screen readers, allthese different things, it's
always been an added tool, adifferent tool.
This is actually the same toolthat allows us all to operate in
our own ways, right?
Right, right.
Which is the coolest thingever, which is what I love.
Chris Maher (27:48):
Like a great, a great example of that just in my
own family.
So, you know, I use speech totext a lot.
A lot of times when I'm justsending text messages to people
because it's easier than typingout, or maybe like I've only,
you know, I don't have two handsfree.
So there's a convenience factorthere, and it's so accurate
now.
But my youngest daughter, whohas intellectual and
developmental disabilities,spelling for her is super hard.
(28:10):
And and typing out on like thelittle keyboard on the phone,
but she texts and emails like amaniac, and it's because she
uses speech to text.
So, like, if she didn't havethat, it'd be really hard for
her to communicate in this worldwe're in.
But that's a that's a that's agame changer for her and many
and many of her friends who alsois that's where she's starting,
right?
Angela Lean (28:30):
So for me, I'm still stubborn and I don't do as
much speech to text or speechto eat to typing as I should.
I just can't get dragon to workfor me in the way that I want
it to.
I'm just because again, we weretalking about teaching old dogs
new tricks.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (28:43):
My new tricks learning curve is pretty high.
So I just have to kind of likeI gotta like sit down and like
get more efficient, but I willget there.
Like that's what's exciting.
It gives me as much of anopportunity and it gives your
daughter a starting place that'sso much more like her potential
is just gonna be through theroof as a result from from a
get-go, right?
Whereas for us older dogs, it'sit's just a little bit more of
(29:04):
a journey or a learning curve.
That's painful, right?
But uh, but I will get there.
Like I've already become moreefficient, right?
Chris Maher (29:11):
Yeah, it's really interesting that, and I think
part of that is like the is likeit's technology transition,
which I never really thoughtabout very much until a month or
two ago, we had Chris Sukup,who's the CEO at CSD
Communication Service for theDeaf.
And he said a big part of whatthey do in serving the deaf
community is helping peopletransition across the
(29:34):
generations of technology.
He goes, You can't just likeroll out something new and shut
down the old generation becausepeople rely on it.
So there has to be an overlapas as technology evolves.
And it's it and it's it'sreally important.
I don't think people, I don'tthink we think about it enough.
But on the innovation side,Microsoft, and I touched on this
earlier, I think a big reasonwhy you folks have been out in
(29:56):
front and ahead of the curve inaccessibility, I think has a lot
to do with.
The leadership at the companyhas lived experience.
And so there's yourself, youknow, your boss, Jenny Leigh
Fleury, her boss, Satya Nadella.
Can you talk about how that'snot only driving innovation
internally, but we we need is weneed more corporate leaders to
buy into this like Microsoft?
(30:16):
And so are you seeing throughwhether it's what you folks are
doing as an example, or maybemore so starting to partner with
other corporates to help themaccelerate their innovation
around accessibility.
Did that make sense?
Angela Lean (30:31):
Yeah, no, for sure.
I mean, I think so.
My boss, so Jenny's my skip.
My my I have just got refusedbetween me and Jenny, I just
have to clarify that.
Chris Maher (30:40):
Gotcha.
Angela Lean (30:41):
We also have folks in DC, that woman I was talking
about who's dyslexic, is apolicy advisor that works in DC.
She works, she actively workson Congress and on local and
state governments around issueslike regulating travel for
people who are wheelchair users,for things like making sure
subminimum wage is not allowedor those kinds of laws are sort
of phased out.
(31:01):
And we actually have you're nolonger allowed legally to like,
you know, hire somebody who'sdisabled as sub-minimum wage.
So like examples, so a coupleof examples of that.
I think in terms of justcollaborating with other
organizations, we have actuallyso we have an organ community
that is a serious other, it's aseller community of people
(31:23):
committed to accessibility.
And we basically train them tobecome evangelists within the
other seller, seller, thebroader seller community at
Microsoft and with customers.
And what we end up doing isactually driving innovation
through the lens ofaccessibility in many, in many
cases.
So an example is it wasn't soit was partially through the
seller community, but alsothrough some of our sports
(31:44):
marketing or product managementteam.
The Indiana Pacers actuallycreated a closed captioning sort
of a closed lib closedcaptioning service at their live
games.
So if you actually had hearingimpaired, you could actually
follow the game because you'reseeing on closed captioning
what's being told announced overthe over the PA system.
(32:06):
The PA system through the, youknow, through the what are they
called announcers?
I'm not saying that.
Chris Maher (32:10):
The broadcast.
The broadcast.
Angela Lean (32:11):
Thank you.
So you could actually followalong real time because you
actually had something that wasdesigned through AI that
generated it on the fly, right?
So if you're hard of hearing,you could actually watch the
game all along, almost the exactsame beat as everybody else who
was hearing.
Or if you're, you know,language impaired or although
have a different language, youknow, that's not English is not
your first language, you couldactually watch it a different
(32:32):
language.
So very cool sort offoundry-based solution that we
started with the Pacers duringsort of their games.
Now we can actually sort oftake that and move it to other
sort of basketball teams orother leagues.
So that's the kind ofinnovation that we're trying to
drive by using these use casesand these examples.
I'm working with actuallyHunter here in New York to try
(32:52):
to create a personalizedlearning tool.
Chris Maher (32:54):
Hunter College.
Angela Lean (32:55):
Hunter College.
Actually, Rob, who was at thedinner with us.
He and I are working together.
We we're kind of thoughtpartners uh in crime.
And so we're actually, I pulledin the account team and we're
actually trying to create asolution where they can actually
take curriculums and designthem for students with
disabilities.
So meet the same learningobjectives, but actually pull in
different kinds of content ordifferent kinds of sort of
(33:18):
learning channels or approaches.
So that if you're blind oryou're deaf or you're, you know,
whatever, dyslexic, you canactually participate with a
different set of learningcontent.
So that kind of stuff, again,we're always looking for use
cases and ways to sort of showthat.
And we're doing it with bigpartners, little partners, you
know, a whole bunch of differententrepreneurs, anybody who
(33:38):
wants to kind of get in on agame, if they want to sort of
have a cool solution that willhelp this community, we're
always open to hearing aboutthat.
Kelvin Crosby (33:45):
Yeah.
I mean it it's always been mydream to build a workflow where
if you launch a business, it's ahundred percent accessible from
the ground up for theemployees, for the customer, and
it it's it's not easy to do.
And I like like I thought aboutlike I I think I've worked very
(34:08):
hard to keep my companyextremely accessible.
And it it's it's almost it inin some ways it's like you you
don't want to say impossible,but so many of the like of the
different areas of like a backend of a company, especially in
the software side, that it'sjust not accessible.
(34:28):
And you're like, alright, howdo we work with that?
Alright, we gotta write somescript here or do here or
whatever, and then get anupdate, and then well that's you
gotta start over.
And so that's where I'm like,alright, how how do you see us
be being able to really helpcompanies using Microsoft
(34:52):
products to really get us peoplewith disabilities to a point
where Lily we're just likeanother another able-bodied
person going into a job.
Like do you see that happeningin the near future where if you
if you're a Microsoft productcompany, you're gonna be able to
(35:14):
have anybody with disability,there's not really any extra
accommodations on the on thesoftware side.
You just come in, boom, thereit is.
Angela Lean (35:23):
You know, it's not gonna be overnight, Calvin.
I'm not gonna lie to you, wehave a long way to go.
I think that we have, but wehave pathways forward, is what I
would say.
I think so.
One of the other things I do isI chair an advisory council for
the Center for WorkplaceAccessibility and Inclusion in
New York City.
And it's a consortium ofbusiness advisors for the city
on how we actually driveworkplace accessibility and
(35:44):
inclusion.
So it's like our I'm thechairperson, there's other folks
from like all over the cityagencies, from private
corporations, from the Frick,from Lincoln Center, from New
York's, you know, like from EY,from other other private
organizations.
And I think it's it's thenotion of bringing together all
these different workplaces andhow we share best practices to
(36:06):
start that process.
Now, I will not say that thisis gonna happen easily, but I'm
gonna say that it I think peopleare really going in the right
direction.
I'm hopeful.
I you know, I know that theidea is I worked with my contact
at that center, and we rolledout accessibility one-on-one,
basically, training across allof New York City employees.
Wow.
So we uploaded their LMS and300,000 New York City employees
(36:31):
have access to sort of how touse their software more
accessibly.
And the idea we did this lastyear, we and the idea is
creating an accessibilitystandard.
They're not all I'm I'm tellingyou, I'm not sure how many
employees have taken it, but I'mjust saying they have the
opportunity to invoke.
And we're trying to make it arequired uh learning.
So we have that at Microsoftfor every employee we have
trained them in ouraccessibility one-on-one, and
(36:51):
any new employee they'rerequired to take it.
I think it's those kinds ofthings that if every
organization did that, we'd geta lot further faster.
I'm excited about doing stuffat Microsoft because I can do
things at scale and faster,because it's gonna take
everybody pitching in, and I'mnot thinking that everybody's
gonna do that naturally, right?
Yeah, but through things likesoftware understanding and
(37:13):
software use, you can get a lotfurther, right?
And I think or just tools,technology, right?
Chris Maher (37:17):
Well, the fact that you folks are so willing to
share your best practices,because I think a big part of
why corporate America hasn'tleaned into accessibility and
committed to it more is thatit's a bit unknown.
They're afraid, they're afraidto make mistakes, and they think
it it's gonna be costly.
And the fact that you folks aresharing your playbook and your
(37:38):
best practices and examples ofhey, first of all, it's not that
hard, second of all, it's notthat costly, third of all, it's
the right thing to do, but inaddition to that, it's actually
good for business.
Angela Lean (37:49):
It's great for business, and it's actually it's
a huge market, right?
So your accessibility act, allthese DOJ requirements, right?
This stuff is coming, and ifpeople are flat footed, they're
not gonna be able, they're gonnaget fined.
Like, let's just be clear.
If they don't serve thiscommunity, they're gonna be left
behind.
Everybody's gonna be affectedby a disability.
I think at one time or another,you know, Chris, you know,
you're wearing glasses that's adisability.
(38:11):
You know, you have a daughterwith a disability.
Kelvin Crosby (38:13):
Wait, he wears glasses?
Angela Lean (38:16):
He does wear glasses.
Kelvin Crosby (38:17):
I didn't know this.
Angela Lean (38:18):
Yes, I know.
Chris Maher (38:19):
When I'm on when I'm on my computer and when I
read, I've actually got threepairs of glasses, guys.
Angela Lean (38:26):
I'm just saying that all of us have our
adaptations, right?
And what's hard is like beingable to address what Kelvin
needs, what I need, and what youneed is often very different.
But in the age of AI andtechnology, that's where the
excitement lies, is potentiallywe can take, we can unblock some
of that more easily throughpersonalization and doing it at
(38:46):
scale.
I mean, I'm being like I'm sortof a broken record here, but I
do think that if you don't do itas a corporation or a business,
you're gonna be left behind.
It's more the urgency behindthat than it is just, because I
think if you position it as justthe right thing to do, it
becomes a tax.
It's not a tax, right?
(39:07):
It's an opportunity, and Ithink that's where you like I
was saying at the beginning.
In my mind, I've gone from meliving with a disability is not
a deficit, it's an asset.
And it's something that I thinkpropels you forward and gives
you sort of it can give youenergy in a very different way,
right?
An opportunity.
Like my job now is the best jobI've ever had.
It's I get to meet people likeyou guys, I get to work within
(39:29):
the community, I get to sort offeel like I'm not totally
different, that I have needsthat can be addressed and that
there's hope and there'spossibility, even as I age and
I'm one armed, and like I spentthe weekend with my my neck
immobilized.
It's terrifying as if you'redisabled, right?
It's like it's something thatyou don't want to deal with.
But technology helps me come along way.
Now I just ordered a newmonitor, I'm gonna like make
(39:50):
myself better.
I can still function, it'sjust gonna be differently.
And again, it's that learningthat's embracing that change
that we all need to do.
Chris Maher (39:59):
Yeah, no, agreed.
Hopefully we're we're in aworld that is quickly moving
from like the compliancecheckbox because they don't want
to get sued, to okay, let's dothe right thing to oh, this is
just good business, right?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Yes.
Chris Maher (40:14):
Let's try to be as inclusive of as many employees
and customers that are outthere, because that's just good
for business.
Angela Lean (40:21):
Right.
And guess what, Chris?
To your question about whywould entrepreneurs care?
That's why entrepreneurs carebecause it's a problem that we
all want to solve.
Chris Maher (40:27):
Right.
Angela Lean (40:28):
It's an exciting intellectual and sort of
business challenge that anybodywith an entrepreneurial spirit
and an interest in the space cankind of get on board.
And how I kind of want torelate to that is so I'm
actually working, we justlaunched a thing called
Microsoft Marketplace, which iswhere it's actually a platform
where we bring together likeISVs, industry providers, and
Microsoft so that our partnersand customers can know what
(40:50):
services they can provide to theto the world, right?
And the lens that I want to puton that is recruiting new
accessibility partners into thatmarketplace.
Chris Maher (40:58):
Love that.
Angela Lean (40:59):
So that's something that I'm actually actively
working on with my team as anarea where we can actually try
to create an ecosystem where ourcustomers and partners can take
advantage of small, even smallplayer.
So for a good example isBe My Eyes.
We worked with them recently,amazing partners of ours.
Our EDAD desk work with them,but we also work with them on a
(41:19):
different level, which is wetook their database of video
content and we actually ingestedinto our LLMs so that our AI
models or our models actuallyhave the perspective of of the
blind user or the blindconsumer.
So that, it's so that they havethat perspective.
So it's a little bit lessableist than it was before we
(41:42):
ingested that data.
So I mean, really coolopportunities through which we
can partner and we can actuallytake smaller businesses or
entrepreneurs and try to makethem sort of more powerful and
like create them, you know,inform the world at scale they
have to offer.
So I actually had a friendbeing like, why are you talking
to Chris?
And I'm like, you work atMicrosoft.
(42:03):
And I'm like, no, no, no, no,no.
I'm like, I'm actually relevantto Chris and the world, I
promise.
Like I just think what you'redoing in terms of Samaritan
partners and all that stuff, isjust you're feeling that
goodness from a differentperspective.
And then when you marry thatwith, you know, folks like my
team, it's really where thatsort of acceleration can happen,
right?
Chris Maher (42:22):
Yeah, thank you. So first of all, folks, I did not
pay Angela or ask her to talkabout Be My Eyes.
As our listeners know,Samaritan is an investor in Be
My Eyes.
Angela Lean (42:32):
I'm sorry.
Chris Maher (42:33):
No, no, no. I'm just giving kind of the
disclaimer.
Angela Lean (42:38):
Yes, yes, yes.
Chris Maher (42:39):
But it is a fantastic example about how
early stage companies and largecorporates can work together and
there's value for everybody.
That's value for Be My Eyes,it's value for Microsoft, and i
t's ultimately valuable for yourcustomers.
Ang (42:53):
It's valuable to the world.
Chris Maher (42:53):
Exactly.
Angela Lean (42:54):
And I can tell you Jenny's team is very committed,
myself and Jessica, abouttalking to smaller companies.
I mean it's about theinnovation, right?
It's not about if you're big orsmall.
Our team is about sort of howdo we take that innovation
broader and wider to the worldand how do we actually tell good
stories that encourageeverybody, corporate,
non-corporate, small business,public policymakers, whatever,
(43:17):
whoever they may be, to sort ofbring that innovation to more
people.
Like I think at the end of theday, we're all coming down to
that.
And as an entrepreneur, you'regoing to be creating that seed,
and hopefully we can help fosterit, right?
That's the idea.
Chris, you have a similarperspective in your investment
strategies, right?
How do I fuel that andaccelerate that to move forward?
Chris Maher (43:35):
What's out there on the horizon that gets you the
most excited about the worldwe're moving into around
accessibility and creating amore inclusive world for
everybody?
Angela Lean (43:47):
It's my broken record spiel that I've been
talking about over and overagain, which is how can AI sort
of just accelerate the pace ofthis inclusion, right?
And doing it in such largescope.
And so part of the challenge,I think, is the disability
community is so diverse, right?
So the needs and the wantscan almost be sort of segmented
(44:09):
on an individual basis.
Because even though, you know,Chris, your daughter and myself
both have left-side hemiplegia,you know, I wear an AFO, she
doesn't, right?
She's younger.
I'm not.
Like there areother big differences?
But I just think maybetechnology can help both of us
(44:31):
in different ways.
I think that's the mostexciting thing.
And I also think just theamount of energy, I love my job
right now because it's soinnovative.
In corporate America, I'veworked in sales readiness, I've
worked in marketing, I've workedwith engineers.
Often, like you're part of alarger system.
I am not very high up in theorganization, but I have such
(44:53):
sort of agency and I have suchsort of ownership of what I want
to do.
And I have like free license todo that, partially because of
the technology, right?
And for me, that's exciting.
And I think your entrepreneursand other people like myself in
corporate America, it's thiswhite space that we get to
design and we get to makebetter. And I think there's an
opportunity to really haveimpact and to really sort of
(45:14):
make people's lives better day-to-day.
That's honestly what I'mexcited about.
And I know that sounds reallyhokey, but that's what gets me
up in the morning.
Chris Maher (45:22):
I love it.
I think great note to end on.
And so as we wrap up here,Angela, first of all, thank you
so much for joining us today.
It was such a wonderfulconversation.
But how can people learn moreabout you and the work you're
doing?
And we'll put these links inthe show notes.
Angela Lean (45:38):
I mean, just find me on LinkedIn, Angela Lean.
You know, I think that we'llput some links on the website,
and I would love to connect withfolks.
Probably that's the easiestway.
Chris Maher (45:46):
You got it.
Well, thank you so much,Angela.
Appreciate your time today.
Angela Lean (45:50):
Thank you.
Kelvin Crosby (45:50):
Well, and that wraps it up.
Investing in accessibility, asI always say.
Go live beyond your challenges,and we'll see you in two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast,where we invest in change for
(46:13):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to
www.samaritanpartners.com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(46:38):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know so we can spread the wordso that we can get access to all
by Investing in Accessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners Podcast.
We're not waiting for change.
We're investing.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating more accessible world.
(00:31):
Hey, hey, hey, it's another beautiful day in the neighborhood and I'mso excited that you're here at
investing in accessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby.
And I got my co-host ChrisMaher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:41):
Good, Kelvin.
How are you, my friend?
It's good to see you and goodto be with you.
Kelvin Crosby (00:45):
Yeah, I'm I'm excited about today.
I mean, what's interesting isyour when your daughter was on
the episode last time, youknow, that was a lot of fun.
I still am trying to recoverfrom the restraint camp, you
know?
That is one thing I'm stilltrying to recover from.
Chris Maher (01:02):
I'm never gonna live that one down.
I still I still have likenightmares and night sweats when
I think about that.
It was all out of our love forour daughter and trying to help
her.
It may have been a littlemisguided, but we tried.
By the way, before we get intomore of that, where you make fun
of me, you had a birthdayrecently.
Kelvin Crosby (01:22):
I did.
Chris Maher (01:23):
You and I talked that day, but happy birthday,
buddy.
Kelvin Crosby (01:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
I'm trying to get younger, butit seems to not work.
But hey, it's what it is.
But uh yeah, I mean I'm reallyexcited on today's topic.
We're gonna begin the AIconversation.
Chris Maher (01:43):
Well, with that, Kelvin, I'm gonna introduce our
guest today.
It's a super treat.
And our guest today is AngelaLean, who's the Senior
Accessibility Program Lead atMicrosoft.
Welcome, Angela.
Angela Lean (01:54):
Thanks.
Nice to see you guys or talk toyou guys.
Chris Maher (01:56):
Yeah, good to have you with us.
And and so just a quick kind ofbackground on how Angela and I
met.
It was several months ago.
It was back, maybe back earlybeginning the summer, right?
Early, right?
Early summer.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah.
Chris Maher (02:10):
And we were both at a dinner for a wonderful
organization, a nonprofit calledTeach Access.
And I had the very good fortuneof sitting next to Angela at
dinner.
We hit it off and startedtalking about our family.
It was mostly about ourfamilies and our kids, and but I
just had such a wonderful,delightful evening with Angela.
And then we've just kind ofstayed in touch since.
(02:31):
And after a couple ofconversations, I said, I think
we need to have you on thepodcast to tell your story and
to talk about the work you'redoing.
So that's what we're gonna dotoday.
So Angela, let's start withyour lived experience and your
relationship to disability.
I think that's a really goodplace to start.
So let's begin there andthen we'll dig into things.
Angela Lean (02:51):
Yeah, no, sure.
I actually, so I am a member ofthe community.
I have a mobility challenge.
I had a stroke when I was 12.
I was jump roping on theplayground and I collapsed in
elementary school.
So spent some time in the ICUin the Jewel Rehab Hospital for
about five months, went back toschool.
Today I live with, I primarilyoperate with just full use of my
(03:14):
right arm.
And I also have an AFO on myleft leg.
So my left side has beenaffected pretty profoundly.
A lot of it's come back.
I'm ambulatory, I've had kids,I've been married, I work
full-time.
Like, so I'm very, I'm veryengaged, has not been as much of
a factor as some may think.
For those who don't live withdisabilities, may be a little
(03:34):
bit surprised, but you know,it's great, it's part of who I
am.
And I do remember, one story Iwas gonna tell, is I remember
having my son, my son's now 22.
When he was a toddler, I wasvery concerned with, he's my
firstborn, how he would thinkabout his mother being disabled.
And I remember being like, ohmy God, how am I gonna tell him?
I had his whole narrative goingwhen basically what I just told
you guys that you know, mommygot sick and she has this thing
(03:56):
and she's just different fromeverybody else, blah blah blah.
I remember he was just walkingand he walked by me and I was
sitting on the stairs and he sawmy AFO, my splint, which is
like basically a thing thatkeeps my ankle at a right angle.
And he walked over, he goes,Mom, what's he was barely
talking?
He's like, What is that?
And I remember telling him,like, I started this whole thing
about oh, mommy has adisability, she has a stroke,
(04:16):
blah, blah, blah.
He goes, Oh, that's nice, andwalked away.
So obviously it's a non, forthose who understand and like
know me, it's not an issue, it'sjust part of who I am.
And I think that story tellsin a great way of how it works.
Chris Maher (04:32):
Yeah.
And it speaks to just how kidsare amazing.
Right.
Like how they're so much betterabout inclusion and not letting
things be of concern to them.
I have a quick question.
You were 12 years old.
So my daughter, so she was bornwith what's called
(04:52):
polymicrogyria, which manifestsitself as a form of
spastic hemiplegia on her leftside.
She also wore an AFO fromprobably a year, year and a half
old until seventh grade whenshe had surgery on her gastroc
tendon to loosen that up.
But she never knew anydifferent.
And she talks about this, shealways knew that she was
(05:16):
different because she wore thebrace and the other kids didn't.
But for you, as they say, weretypical for your first 12 years.
And what was that experiencelike when you went back to
school after having the strokeand then having to go through
that long rehabilitationprocess?
I mean, I'm sure it was a itwas a physical challenge, but
I'm guessing it was probably apretty emotional challenge as
(05:37):
well.
Angela Lean (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think as a kid, you are more
resilient to your point.
I think it was, I put a lot ofpressure on myself.
I had pretty high expectationsfor my ability to compete or
perform or, you know, live up tosort of standards.
And I think that there was alot of pressure sort of
psychologically to like not missa beat.
I was sixth grade, so therewasn't that much that I was
(05:59):
missing, to be honest.
But I think, you know, I thinkit's part of my next sort of,
you know, in part of the prep, Iwas thinking, you know, as I
kind of went through high schooland I kind of transitioned into
college, I think that mydisability was always a deficit
that I was very proud ofovercoming, right?
So it's something that I wasreally like, hey, you know, I
went to Yale despite the factthat I had disability.
(06:21):
My narrative was all about sortof my personal experience and
how that affected my ability.
But I was still academically,you know, proficient or capable
and above average.
I was, you know, I was a champ.
But you know, what'sinteresting is I've gotten
older, I think the transitionhas now become my disability is
truly an asset.
Chris Maher (06:40):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (06:41):
So I flipped the narrative in my head from being
like, I am successful despite ofit.
Now I feel like I'msuccessful, and even more
successful, because of it.
And I'm not sure if that has todo with the fact that it was
the onset was when it was later,but I do think it was a very
interesting transition.
So it may not answer yourquestion per se, but I do think,
I did have the perspective ofwhat it meant to be sort of
(07:02):
completely functional in a waythat most people are.
Chris Maher (07:04):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (07:05):
And and it's being, I mean, there is a there is a
grief, a grieving process,right?
Because there's extremefrustration.
And I just think that I'velearned to cope with that
frustration in different ways asI've aged.
Kelvin Crosby (07:15):
I mean, I think one of the interesting things
you bring that up, like when Igot diagnosed with my Usher
syndrome, I was almost turningthirteen.
And you just try to overcomeit, you know.
And then as I've gotten overit, like how you talked about
it, it becomes who you are andit and it becomes an asset.
(07:38):
And I mean, in so manydifferent ways.
I'm seeing how it transformedmy life in a way that now I'm
able to do things that I neverwould have done if I could see,
you know.
You make a really good point,and I mean I think it's really
(07:59):
important to remember thatindividuals with disabilities,
and really it's a challenge.
But when you allow thechallenge to be all
encompassing, then it becomes, okay, I have to keep pushing through.
When you allow the challenge tobe, alright, I got
(08:30):
this and this is it.
Now, how how can I impact theworld with it?
Angela Lean (08:35):
Yeah, no, Kelvin, I'm totally 100% with you.
I talk about the tyranny of theshould or the standard, I
should say.
And I think when you acceptyourself for who you are and how
you perform, or just how youoperate is different.
It actually sparks resilienceand it sparks innovation.
So I think we often talk aboutsort of how important lived
(08:58):
experience at Microsoft isbecause we have folks using, you
know, who are quasi-testers,right?
So for example, we have one ofour lead designers on
PowerPoint, does a lot of workwith our blind community.
And they often look at featuresbefore they go out or after
they go out.
And what's so interesting isthey're actually showing him how
to look at PowerPoint from aconsumption perspective and a
(09:21):
blind consumption perspective.
Where he creates PowerPointfrom a designer perspective.
Chris Maher (09:26):
Right.
Angela Lean (09:26):
So the contrast is so telling in terms of sort of
how things land and how thingscan be used differently, even
for who he typically has themland with, right?
So I just it's such afascinating process, and that's
why I love what I do.
So I'm jumping a little bitforward.
Chris Maher (09:42):
No, no.
I mean, Angela, I love whatyou just said, and a few things
I'm just gonna kind of pull outand highlight because I think
there are common themes with alot of our guests and certainly
things that I look for inentrepreneurs and companies that
I invest in.
And so to hear you talk about,as someone who is right now at
(10:03):
one of the largest technologycompanies in the world, and
that's part of you know, youtalk about how it's important to
you, but it's certainlysomething, and we're gonna get
into this.
It sounds like it's also becomea part of the culture there at
Microsoft.
But, you know, the fact thatyou were like my mentality
changed from I was succeeding orachieving despite my disability
to now you feel like you'reachieving because of it.
And a good friend of mine, whoyou folks may may know, who's
(10:27):
gonna be a future guest on thepodcast, Diego Marascal, who
runs 2Gether International,which is an accelerator that
supports entrepreneurs withdisabilities, he talks about
disability as a competitiveadvantage all the time.
And I think that he has thatsame mentality of like, hey, we
are achieving and succeeding,not in spite of our disability,
but because of it, right?
(10:47):
Because it's teaching us thingslike being problem solvers,
being resilient, being adaptive,right?
Like that's all the stuff I sawin my daughter.
It's all the stuff I see,Angela, in you, in Kelvin, in
the entrepreneurs I speak to.
And those are good traits,certainly if you're an
entrepreneur and you're buildingbusinesses, but it's they're
just good traits for the game oflife as well.
Angela Lean (11:06):
Oh, yeah.
No, I'm I mean, I will say Ican Kelvin and I were just
chatting before we started,right?
About our ability to navigate asubway platform with a
disability.
Like, can we just talk aboutlife, like life skills?
Oh, yeah.
That's something we, Kelvin,you and I should put on our
resume.
We can get through a crowd witha key or with like nobody's
business, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I do also think so.
(11:26):
I mean, the way we look at itat Microsoft is, or one of the
ways we looked at it, the thedisability population, WHO said
is 1.3 billion people.
Okay, that is a market.
Yeah, that is a bigger marketthan most countries.
Okay, so let's just be reallyclear that we are consumers, we
are users of technology, we areinnovators, and we are
contributors to the world.
(11:46):
And everybody's gonna beaffected by disability.
So, not to get on my soapboxtoo early, but I do think it's
really important to think of usas an opportunity, right?
And as an asset, not just as anemployee, like an employee
base, but also as a consumer.
So people need to design thingsto be more inclusive and to
make the world different andbetter for that 1.3 billion
(12:06):
people because we're gonnachange the world.
Yep, right?
Chris Maher (12:09):
We're with you.
We're you're preaching to thechoir, my friend.
Kelvin Crosby (12:12):
We're driving.
You know, you don't want me toget all the oh oh churchy on.
I'm like, hey, yeah, amen.
Angela Lean (12:23):
Okay, but you can tell me how fun Calvin was.
Chris Maher (12:25):
So that's I know.
Well, I wanted it to surpriseyou.
Angela Lean (12:28):
Uh, very kind of you, although I did listen to
some of the banter from theearlier podcast.
Chris Maher (12:33):
Yeah, I told you we were gonna have some fun.
Angela Lean (12:35):
I think I did.
Yeah.
Chris Maher (12:36):
So so Angela, I think that's a good segue into
the the arc of your professionalcareer and how your lived
experience, you know, informed,directed that.
So you take it away and becauseit it is a fascinating arc of
your of your work experience.
And so I'd love for you to kindof take us through that.
And then I'm sure that Calvinand I are gonna have some
questions for you.
Angela Lean (12:57):
Yeah, so I don't think it's as much an arc or a
straight line as a zigzag.
So let's just be really clearthat my career path is not
traditional.
But I do think so, but youknow, college, I went to Yale as
an undergrad study.
History was not the mostpragmatic route for for
professions.
Then I went to DC because I waspretty politically active and
ended up working for TomHarkin's office, subcommittee
(13:20):
and disability policy in 1993,which is three years after the
ADA was passed.
Okay, and Tom Harkin, aseverybody knows, was the author
of the ADA.
So worked with this reallyinspiring community, a guy named
Bobby Silverstein, who wassadly passed, but he was a
lawyer.
I was literally thereceptionist.
And I sat there and I likeanswered phones from
(13:40):
constituents and wrote lettersabout the ADA.
And I think what was importantwas not so much what I was
doing, but sort of what Ilearned in terms of being part
of this community.
It was a community that I neverknew and a community that I
never really under, you know, Inever really felt a part of.
And I think it was sort of likemy my entree into sort of what
this could be.
Then I left because TC was notfor me.
(14:02):
Went to Asia, did some randomthings with my partner and then
who became my husband, and thencame back to get my MBA and then
did some tours of duty incorporate America.
So then I went to AMX, TMobile, a bunch of places.
Ended up back here at Microsoft15 years ago.
And I remember being like, Iwas being interviewed for my
first job, which was for miceand keyboards, so marketing for
(14:25):
mice and keyboards.
We had a whole line of hardwarearound that.
And the guy who wasinterviewing me was a gentleman
by the name of Stuart Ashman,who's a general manager.
So he was the as appropriate,which means he was a guy who's
approving my candidacy or mysort of, you know, my interview
loop.
And he says to me, Why, why areyou passionate about
technology?
And to be really honest withyou, I wasn't.
(14:45):
But then I told him, I said,because I am I'm a mom of two
toddlers and I use one hand andI work full time.
So the technology I use on myphone keeps me living.
It's my assistive technology ina sense that kind of keeps me
going because I can do bothwork, I can do personal things,
I keep in touch with my family.
It was actually a sidekick,which is really, really old fun
that people and I was like, itkeeps me going and it keeps me
(15:09):
operating with one hand and onthe fly.
Like I'm always moving.
And he's like, you know what,that's the best answer I've ever
gotten.
And I remember Stuart was likea GM for like 30 years.
I think he's in and out ofMicrosoft in terms of
consulting.
And I was so proud of myanswer.
And I didn't realize it wastook completely off the cuff.
I didn't realize, like, in whenI applied to business school, I
talked about sort of wanting towork with technology and sort
(15:31):
of disability and creatingassistive technology.
I didn't use that language, butthat's what I was sort of
conceptualizing.
And I didn't pursue it, butthen I realized that it just sat
with me.
And then after about 10 yearsin marketing and sales readiness
roles, I had the opportunity togo work for the Office of
Accessibility.
And I realized that this is mypassion, that I wanted to
actually be part of thiscommunity and move the ball
(15:52):
forward for Microsoft because itwas one of the biggest
platforms companies in the worldthat could really make a
difference.
And that's where I ended up inthe last five years.
Chris Maher (16:01):
Love it.
I love it.
I love how all that livedexperience kind of coalesced
with the work you're doingtoday.
So, can can you dig into yourwork?
I guess there's a couple thingsabout Microsoft, like the work
you're doing now, because you'reinvolved in some really cool
projects there, but you're alsoinvolved in some work outside of
Microsoft on boards.
(16:22):
And so let's start there beforewe get into kind of how I
believe Microsoft is is reallykind of a shining light and a
leader around accessibility.
I personally think it has a lotto do with some of the, you
know, starts with Satya Nadellabecause he has a little
experience with disability.
But let's start with you andyour role first, and then we'll
talk about the broaderMicrosoft.
Angela Lean (16:42):
Yeah.
So I think for the first fouryears on this team, I was
working on employee experience.
One of the cooler things I gotto work on was I did a survey of
our employees withdisabilities, and I said, What
are your biggest challenges?
Not in those words, but thatwas some of what we did.
And we found out thediscoverability of disability
and accessibility resources atthe company were very disparate
and hard for people to find.
(17:04):
So we were like, how do weaddress that?
Well, guess what?
AI is here.
So let's create a tool, anagent.
So I had I had the privilege,thank you.
That's a word I wanted to use,of actually creating an agent
for our employees that was basedon the disability resources
that we had at the company,whether it be how to navigate
self-ID or how to get anaccommodation or how to find
(17:26):
manager readiness tools aroundneurodiversity.
And it was actually pretty, itwas we did this last last year,
last fiscal.
So, like sort of it it launchedbasically in March and really
well received, not just by thedisability community because it
worked really well for folks,but by the engineering
community.
Because it was prettyprogressive in terms of saying,
hey, this is a solution forpeople who actually need the
(17:47):
information quickly, and itneeds to consolidate and sort of
tell not just the background onthe information we need for
problem solving, but how toaction it.
So it was a very sort of greatreal-life example of copilot and
how it can do that.
And then we actually took it astep further and we started
creating sort of our own sort ofUIs and sort of tracking so
that we could actually have alittle bit more customization.
(18:08):
Because copilot was great interms of the screen readers, but
not ideal.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (18:13):
So we actually had folks in our team do some
pressure testing and we createda different UI that we thought
was better for the screen readerexperience.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Very good.
Angela Lean (18:20):
Which I then I'm actually going to try to work
with partners to kind of createsort of the templates that
people can use because we wantto get sort of ahead of that
before Copilot might get there,right?
Copilot agent I'm talking aboutare students.
So again, like, you know, greatwork that's going on there, but
you know, right now they're notquite as custom for the screen
reader experience as we wantedto be.
And the part of the reason wecould do that was because I have
(18:42):
blind devs on my team who couldwho could work on that.
And I had users, testers on myteam who could give me real-time
feedback.
So that's actually a reallycool thing we did, a pretty
innovative um internal.
Chris Maher (18:52):
Um quick question on that.
The you said that it wasn'tjust the the employee population
with disabilities, but also theengineering team was finding it
very valuable.
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Angela Lean (19:05):
Yeah, it was just a very a different application of
AI that they hadn't seen.
And I think it was so it wasthe one of my exec sponsors for
the ERT is a leader in the inthe engineering team.
And he was just so excited tosee employees kind of like
rallying around sort of, youknow, our tools and trying to
make things work better for aninternal population.
You he actually, you know, wasvery committed to the to the
(19:26):
community, but I think you know,he was like, this is not just
good for the community, this isjust good for AI.
And it's great, it's a gooddemonstration of how we can use
our own tools to forward theexperience at Microsoft.
I think that's why he wasexcited.
And it was, you know, it wasjust it was a good project and
it was something that we can wetook initiative, and I think he
was just like, hey, this isgreat.
You guys are showing you we'rethe tip of the spear, right?
(19:46):
And he's like, How often is Imean, it's sort of like to our
conversation before about howwe're innovators, it was a great
showcasing of how thedisability community could be an
innovation engine, right?
Yeah for for not just ouremployees, but for our tools,
right?
Because I've demo demoed thatto like different advisory
boards that I'm on anddifferent, and they're all like
(20:06):
this is really cool, right?
And I think, and we also tookit and we customized it a little
bit further.
So we took it beyond sort ofwhat the out-of-the-box solution
was.
And I think you really likeseeing that because that can
ultimately inform the product,right?
Right.
Again, we're not quite thereyet, but we could get there in
the future because we're gonnatell the product team, sort of
this is what you know what we'reseeing from the disability
(20:27):
community.
Chris Maher (20:28):
Yeah, it sounds like Angela, it was very much
kind of an inclusive oruniversal design approach to
that.
Angela Lean (20:33):
Did you folks actually like it sounds like you
consciously brought the rightpeople to the table, but like do
you talk with language likethat or is it just we're very
much about shift left, or aboutsort of how you you should
design inclusively first or fromthe get-go, and not necessarily
you want to be you don't wantto be in the business of
remediation because it's soexpensive.
I mean, we all are, don't getme wrong, but like I think it's
(20:55):
we're just at that sort of likewe're at that shift until we get
to sort of you knowcomprehensive or universal
inclusive design, we're alwaysgonna be remediating, right?
And I think that's how we wantto be, obviously, but it's it's
just a reality of sort of wherewe are in the in the cycle.
And I think another really coolservice that we have that that
(21:16):
my our chief accessibilityofficer, Jenny Le Fleury, and
then my former manager NeilBarnett started with this
service called EDAD, which isEnterprise Disability Answer
Desk.
It's literally a support deskthat enterprise customers can
call into with their issuesaround products, right?
So it's very cool in terms ofjust sort of we get real-time
feedback from our customers andtheir employees.
(21:37):
Employees can also call into itfor their own reasons, but it's
enterprise, it's e-DAD.
And they take the bugs or thereports, the issues, and they
funnel it back to the productteams.
So we do what I did, but at asystematic and at a stack level
for for like whether it's Teamsor whether it's Windows Narrator
or whether it's so Xbox, that'smore of a consumer play,
(22:00):
whether it's M365, like so.
We're having a constantconversation around sort of what
are the issues affecting ourbroader customer set and their
employees who are disabled thatwe can track and we can actually
sort of hopefully get access tothat's fantastic.
Chris Maher (22:15):
Did you did that did the eDAT evolve in parallel
or after you were doing itinternally for employees?
And you're like, oh, wait, whywouldn't we do this something
similar for our customers?
Angela Lean (22:27):
It was it was it was in conjunction.
So we are still so we're in theoffice of accessibility, which
actually happens to sit in ourexternal affairs and legal
organization.
But like the team I'm now on,so I've moved on from employee
experience into a commercialfacing team, and I'm actually
doing sort of a lot of workaround new go-to-market
strategies and monetization forour accessibility offerings and
(22:50):
services, like EDAD.
I mean so, which will bring upsort of your question about
partners and innovation and allthat kind of good.
So we'll get there.
But and also on just figuringout sort of how we bring our so
our goal is how to actually howdo we actually try greater
assistive technology oraccessible technology.
Yeah.
Bring it through our salesteam, through our customers,
(23:11):
through sort of diffusion of ourtechnology.
Because you know, Microsoft isa leader in the enterprise
accessibility space.
And we also are, you know, ourtools are do have very, very
good accessibility features andsort of like, you know, like
just an approach toaccessibility that that not all
technology has.
I mean, we're not perfect byany means, but we actually have
(23:31):
a lot that I think really helpedthe world.
And it it letters up to ourmission, which is to empower
every organization individual.
That's kind of what's excitingabout being part of this team.
Kelvin Crosby (23:39):
Well, I mean what's interesting is like I've
I've been a Microsoft user forso many years and like and I I
like as you were br bringing upsome of the stuff, it's like
it's always been one of myfrustrations, like is being able
to build and build and buildthings out using certain things
(24:00):
and it's like alright, maybeI'll give this a second shot
because because w because one ofmy biggest struggles as a as a
visit and pay person is I'm I'mgood at building things and
creating things and I'm like Ijust want the opportunity, you
know?
And and so I'm always having tofind other w workarounds and
(24:22):
because something's not workingor whatever.
And like I remember early onwhen Office 365 was just kind of
coming out, I was wanting tobuild my own database and be
able to use like different appsand so forth and and be able to
all make it all talk to eachother, and I couldn't get the
screen readers to do it for youknow what, and I was just so
(24:46):
livid.
And so it's exciting to hearyou talk about this, like all
right, we're fixing these issueswith AI, and we're able to
really start making some massiveheadway as you are moving
forward in accessibility, 'causeI think one of the things in
the AI space that I think fromaccessibility standpoint, so
(25:09):
obviously one of the biggest tagthing is screen readers.
That's always one thing thatmost people are always working
on, make sure it's accessible toscreen readers.
But I I I want to kind of getoff of that for a second.
It is how are we using AI andMicrosoft that helps other
disabilities, likecolorblindness or some of the
(25:35):
like captioning, and then alsoeven just with physical
disabilities, like if you don'thave movement of your of your
hands, like how is what you guysare doing now starting
incorporating that?
I know we talk a lot aboutscreen readers, but I think this
area kind of gets missed a lot,and you guys are doing a lot of
(25:56):
work in this space.
Angela Lean (25:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think my answer to your question
is how are we not?
Right.
So just examples on my team.
I had one colleague who worksin DC in the policy area, she's
a director in policy, she'sdyslexic.
So she reads like you know, allthose things that come out of
like Congress and all thesepolicies.
She literally has said that shewill never take another job
without co-pilot or some sort ofthing that consolidates and
(26:18):
summarizes all the reading shehas to do.
It's made her so expeditious,like so efficient and so much
more um time time.
She's just so much better ather job because of it because
she's not struggling as much andjust the ease to which she does
that as one example, right?
I have another colleague who iscan't use either of her arms.
So she uses a lot of voice totext and she's a lot of AI.
(26:40):
I don't know exactly how sheuses it, but she basically has
said things that have taken herhours in the past now take her
minutes.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (26:46):
So if you can imagine the degree to which this
is impacting individuals in theday-to-day, right?
I mean, I think I mean that'swhat I think is the most amazing
part of it.
It's for all these differentuse cases and all these
different disabilities, it isall personalizing our abilities
to work, right, on the computerand digitally.
So it's gonna bringpersonalized assistance, brings
(27:07):
it at scale, and also brings itin a way that we can all use it
so it's a level playing field.
Because Chris is not mobilitychallenged, not visually
impaired.
Kelvin Crosby (27:15):
Can you wait?
Are you sure about this?
I I've been demanding.
I mean, he he's ran me into acouple tables and walls.
Apologize.
Angela Lean (27:27):
Well, but the my point is the three of us can use
the same tools and be equallyempowered.
That's my point.
So it's a very level, I mean,even with assistive technology,
even with screen readers, allthese different things, it's
always been an added tool, adifferent tool.
This is actually the same toolthat allows us all to operate in
our own ways, right?
Right, right.
Which is the coolest thingever, which is what I love.
Chris Maher (27:48):
Like a great, a great example of that just in my
own family.
So, you know, I use speech totext a lot.
A lot of times when I'm justsending text messages to people
because it's easier than typingout, or maybe like I've only,
you know, I don't have two handsfree.
So there's a convenience factorthere, and it's so accurate
now.
But my youngest daughter, whohas intellectual and
developmental disabilities,spelling for her is super hard.
(28:10):
And and typing out on like thelittle keyboard on the phone,
but she texts and emails like amaniac, and it's because she
uses speech to text.
So, like, if she didn't havethat, it'd be really hard for
her to communicate in this worldwe're in.
But that's a that's a that's agame changer for her and many
and many of her friends who alsois that's where she's starting,
right?
Angela Lean (28:30):
So for me, I'm still stubborn and I don't do as
much speech to text or speechto eat to typing as I should.
I just can't get dragon to workfor me in the way that I want
it to.
I'm just because again, we weretalking about teaching old dogs
new tricks.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah.
Angela Lean (28:43):
My new tricks learning curve is pretty high.
So I just have to kind of likeI gotta like sit down and like
get more efficient, but I willget there.
Like that's what's exciting.
It gives me as much of anopportunity and it gives your
daughter a starting place that'sso much more like her potential
is just gonna be through theroof as a result from from a
get-go, right?
Whereas for us older dogs, it'sit's just a little bit more of
(29:04):
a journey or a learning curve.
That's painful, right?
But uh, but I will get there.
Like I've already become moreefficient, right?
Chris Maher (29:11):
Yeah, it's really interesting that, and I think
part of that is like the is likeit's technology transition,
which I never really thoughtabout very much until a month or
two ago, we had Chris Sukup,who's the CEO at CSD
Communication Service for theDeaf.
And he said a big part of whatthey do in serving the deaf
community is helping peopletransition across the
(29:34):
generations of technology.
He goes, You can't just likeroll out something new and shut
down the old generation becausepeople rely on it.
So there has to be an overlapas as technology evolves.
And it's it and it's it'sreally important.
I don't think people, I don'tthink we think about it enough.
But on the innovation side,Microsoft, and I touched on this
earlier, I think a big reasonwhy you folks have been out in
(29:56):
front and ahead of the curve inaccessibility, I think has a lot
to do with.
The leadership at the companyhas lived experience.
And so there's yourself, youknow, your boss, Jenny Leigh
Fleury, her boss, Satya Nadella.
Can you talk about how that'snot only driving innovation
internally, but we we need is weneed more corporate leaders to
buy into this like Microsoft?
(30:16):
And so are you seeing throughwhether it's what you folks are
doing as an example, or maybemore so starting to partner with
other corporates to help themaccelerate their innovation
around accessibility.
Did that make sense?
Angela Lean (30:31):
Yeah, no, for sure.
I mean, I think so.
My boss, so Jenny's my skip.
My my I have just got refusedbetween me and Jenny, I just
have to clarify that.
Chris Maher (30:40):
Gotcha.
Angela Lean (30:41):
We also have folks in DC, that woman I was talking
about who's dyslexic, is apolicy advisor that works in DC.
She works, she actively workson Congress and on local and
state governments around issueslike regulating travel for
people who are wheelchair users,for things like making sure
subminimum wage is not allowedor those kinds of laws are sort
of phased out.
(31:01):
And we actually have you're nolonger allowed legally to like,
you know, hire somebody who'sdisabled as sub-minimum wage.
So like examples, so a coupleof examples of that.
I think in terms of justcollaborating with other
organizations, we have actuallyso we have an organ community
that is a serious other, it's aseller community of people
(31:23):
committed to accessibility.
And we basically train them tobecome evangelists within the
other seller, seller, thebroader seller community at
Microsoft and with customers.
And what we end up doing isactually driving innovation
through the lens ofaccessibility in many, in many
cases.
So an example is it wasn't soit was partially through the
seller community, but alsothrough some of our sports
(31:44):
marketing or product managementteam.
The Indiana Pacers actuallycreated a closed captioning sort
of a closed lib closedcaptioning service at their live
games.
So if you actually had hearingimpaired, you could actually
follow the game because you'reseeing on closed captioning
what's being told announced overthe over the PA system.
(32:06):
The PA system through the, youknow, through the what are they
called announcers?
I'm not saying that.
Chris Maher (32:10):
The broadcast.
The broadcast.
Angela Lean (32:11):
Thank you.
So you could actually followalong real time because you
actually had something that wasdesigned through AI that
generated it on the fly, right?
So if you're hard of hearing,you could actually watch the
game all along, almost the exactsame beat as everybody else who
was hearing.
Or if you're, you know,language impaired or although
have a different language, youknow, that's not English is not
your first language, you couldactually watch it a different
(32:32):
language.
So very cool sort offoundry-based solution that we
started with the Pacers duringsort of their games.
Now we can actually sort oftake that and move it to other
sort of basketball teams orother leagues.
So that's the kind ofinnovation that we're trying to
drive by using these use casesand these examples.
I'm working with actuallyHunter here in New York to try
(32:52):
to create a personalizedlearning tool.
Chris Maher (32:54):
Hunter College.
Angela Lean (32:55):
Hunter College.
Actually, Rob, who was at thedinner with us.
He and I are working together.
We we're kind of thoughtpartners uh in crime.
And so we're actually, I pulledin the account team and we're
actually trying to create asolution where they can actually
take curriculums and designthem for students with
disabilities.
So meet the same learningobjectives, but actually pull in
different kinds of content ordifferent kinds of sort of
(33:18):
learning channels or approaches.
So that if you're blind oryou're deaf or you're, you know,
whatever, dyslexic, you canactually participate with a
different set of learningcontent.
So that kind of stuff, again,we're always looking for use
cases and ways to sort of showthat.
And we're doing it with bigpartners, little partners, you
know, a whole bunch of differententrepreneurs, anybody who
(33:38):
wants to kind of get in on agame, if they want to sort of
have a cool solution that willhelp this community, we're
always open to hearing aboutthat.
Kelvin Crosby (33:45):
Yeah.
I mean it it's always been mydream to build a workflow where
if you launch a business, it's ahundred percent accessible from
the ground up for theemployees, for the customer, and
it it's it's not easy to do.
And I like like I thought aboutlike I I think I've worked very
(34:08):
hard to keep my companyextremely accessible.
And it it's it's almost it inin some ways it's like you you
don't want to say impossible,but so many of the like of the
different areas of like a backend of a company, especially in
the software side, that it'sjust not accessible.
(34:28):
And you're like, alright, howdo we work with that?
Alright, we gotta write somescript here or do here or
whatever, and then get anupdate, and then well that's you
gotta start over.
And so that's where I'm like,alright, how how do you see us
be being able to really helpcompanies using Microsoft
(34:52):
products to really get us peoplewith disabilities to a point
where Lily we're just likeanother another able-bodied
person going into a job.
Like do you see that happeningin the near future where if you
if you're a Microsoft productcompany, you're gonna be able to
(35:14):
have anybody with disability,there's not really any extra
accommodations on the on thesoftware side.
You just come in, boom, thereit is.
Angela Lean (35:23):
You know, it's not gonna be overnight, Calvin.
I'm not gonna lie to you, wehave a long way to go.
I think that we have, but wehave pathways forward, is what I
would say.
I think so.
One of the other things I do isI chair an advisory council for
the Center for WorkplaceAccessibility and Inclusion in
New York City.
And it's a consortium ofbusiness advisors for the city
on how we actually driveworkplace accessibility and
(35:44):
inclusion.
So it's like our I'm thechairperson, there's other folks
from like all over the cityagencies, from private
corporations, from the Frick,from Lincoln Center, from New
York's, you know, like from EY,from other other private
organizations.
And I think it's it's thenotion of bringing together all
these different workplaces andhow we share best practices to
(36:06):
start that process.
Now, I will not say that thisis gonna happen easily, but I'm
gonna say that it I think peopleare really going in the right
direction.
I'm hopeful.
I you know, I know that theidea is I worked with my contact
at that center, and we rolledout accessibility one-on-one,
basically, training across allof New York City employees.
Wow.
So we uploaded their LMS and300,000 New York City employees
(36:31):
have access to sort of how touse their software more
accessibly.
And the idea we did this lastyear, we and the idea is
creating an accessibilitystandard.
They're not all I'm I'm tellingyou, I'm not sure how many
employees have taken it, but I'mjust saying they have the
opportunity to invoke.
And we're trying to make it arequired uh learning.
So we have that at Microsoftfor every employee we have
trained them in ouraccessibility one-on-one, and
(36:51):
any new employee they'rerequired to take it.
I think it's those kinds ofthings that if every
organization did that, we'd geta lot further faster.
I'm excited about doing stuffat Microsoft because I can do
things at scale and faster,because it's gonna take
everybody pitching in, and I'mnot thinking that everybody's
gonna do that naturally, right?
Yeah, but through things likesoftware understanding and
(37:13):
software use, you can get a lotfurther, right?
And I think or just tools,technology, right?
Chris Maher (37:17):
Well, the fact that you folks are so willing to
share your best practices,because I think a big part of
why corporate America hasn'tleaned into accessibility and
committed to it more is thatit's a bit unknown.
They're afraid, they're afraidto make mistakes, and they think
it it's gonna be costly.
And the fact that you folks aresharing your playbook and your
(37:38):
best practices and examples ofhey, first of all, it's not that
hard, second of all, it's notthat costly, third of all, it's
the right thing to do, but inaddition to that, it's actually
good for business.
Angela Lean (37:49):
It's great for business, and it's actually it's
a huge market, right?
So your accessibility act, allthese DOJ requirements, right?
This stuff is coming, and ifpeople are flat footed, they're
not gonna be able, they're gonnaget fined.
Like, let's just be clear.
If they don't serve thiscommunity, they're gonna be left
behind.
Everybody's gonna be affectedby a disability.
I think at one time or another,you know, Chris, you know,
you're wearing glasses that's adisability.
(38:11):
You know, you have a daughterwith a disability.
Kelvin Crosby (38:13):
Wait, he wears glasses?
Angela Lean (38:16):
He does wear glasses.
Kelvin Crosby (38:17):
I didn't know this.
Angela Lean (38:18):
Yes, I know.
Chris Maher (38:19):
When I'm on when I'm on my computer and when I
read, I've actually got threepairs of glasses, guys.
Angela Lean (38:26):
I'm just saying that all of us have our
adaptations, right?
And what's hard is like beingable to address what Kelvin
needs, what I need, and what youneed is often very different.
But in the age of AI andtechnology, that's where the
excitement lies, is potentiallywe can take, we can unblock some
of that more easily throughpersonalization and doing it at
(38:46):
scale.
I mean, I'm being like I'm sortof a broken record here, but I
do think that if you don't do itas a corporation or a business,
you're gonna be left behind.
It's more the urgency behindthat than it is just, because I
think if you position it as justthe right thing to do, it
becomes a tax.
It's not a tax, right?
(39:07):
It's an opportunity, and Ithink that's where you like I
was saying at the beginning.
In my mind, I've gone from meliving with a disability is not
a deficit, it's an asset.
And it's something that I thinkpropels you forward and gives
you sort of it can give youenergy in a very different way,
right?
An opportunity.
Like my job now is the best jobI've ever had.
It's I get to meet people likeyou guys, I get to work within
(39:29):
the community, I get to sort offeel like I'm not totally
different, that I have needsthat can be addressed and that
there's hope and there'spossibility, even as I age and
I'm one armed, and like I spentthe weekend with my my neck
immobilized.
It's terrifying as if you'redisabled, right?
It's like it's something thatyou don't want to deal with.
But technology helps me come along way.
Now I just ordered a newmonitor, I'm gonna like make
(39:50):
myself better.
I can still function, it'sjust gonna be differently.
And again, it's that learningthat's embracing that change
that we all need to do.
Chris Maher (39:59):
Yeah, no, agreed.
Hopefully we're we're in aworld that is quickly moving
from like the compliancecheckbox because they don't want
to get sued, to okay, let's dothe right thing to oh, this is
just good business, right?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Yes.
Chris Maher (40:14):
Let's try to be as inclusive of as many employees
and customers that are outthere, because that's just good
for business.
Angela Lean (40:21):
Right.
And guess what, Chris?
To your question about whywould entrepreneurs care?
That's why entrepreneurs carebecause it's a problem that we
all want to solve.
Chris Maher (40:27):
Right.
Angela Lean (40:28):
It's an exciting intellectual and sort of
business challenge that anybodywith an entrepreneurial spirit
and an interest in the space cankind of get on board.
And how I kind of want torelate to that is so I'm
actually working, we justlaunched a thing called
Microsoft Marketplace, which iswhere it's actually a platform
where we bring together likeISVs, industry providers, and
Microsoft so that our partnersand customers can know what
(40:50):
services they can provide to theto the world, right?
And the lens that I want to puton that is recruiting new
accessibility partners into thatmarketplace.
Chris Maher (40:58):
Love that.
Angela Lean (40:59):
So that's something that I'm actually actively
working on with my team as anarea where we can actually try
to create an ecosystem where ourcustomers and partners can take
advantage of small, even smallplayer.
So for a good example isBe My Eyes.
We worked with them recently,amazing partners of ours.
Our EDAD desk work with them,but we also work with them on a
(41:19):
different level, which is wetook their database of video
content and we actually ingestedinto our LLMs so that our AI
models or our models actuallyhave the perspective of of the
blind user or the blindconsumer.
So that, it's so that they havethat perspective.
So it's a little bit lessableist than it was before we
(41:42):
ingested that data.
So I mean, really coolopportunities through which we
can partner and we can actuallytake smaller businesses or
entrepreneurs and try to makethem sort of more powerful and
like create them, you know,inform the world at scale they
have to offer.
So I actually had a friendbeing like, why are you talking
to Chris?
And I'm like, you work atMicrosoft.
(42:03):
And I'm like, no, no, no, no,no.
I'm like, I'm actually relevantto Chris and the world, I
promise.
Like I just think what you'redoing in terms of Samaritan
partners and all that stuff, isjust you're feeling that
goodness from a differentperspective.
And then when you marry thatwith, you know, folks like my
team, it's really where thatsort of acceleration can happen,
right?
Chris Maher (42:22):
Yeah, thank you. So first of all, folks, I did not
pay Angela or ask her to talkabout Be My Eyes.
As our listeners know,Samaritan is an investor in Be
My Eyes.
Angela Lean (42:32):
I'm sorry.
Chris Maher (42:33):
No, no, no. I'm just giving kind of the
disclaimer.
Angela Lean (42:38):
Yes, yes, yes.
Chris Maher (42:39):
But it is a fantastic example about how
early stage companies and largecorporates can work together and
there's value for everybody.
That's value for Be My Eyes,it's value for Microsoft, and i
t's ultimately valuable for yourcustomers.
Ang (42:53):
It's valuable to the world.
Chris Maher (42:53):
Exactly.
Angela Lean (42:54):
And I can tell you Jenny's team is very committed,
myself and Jessica, abouttalking to smaller companies.
I mean it's about theinnovation, right?
It's not about if you're big orsmall.
Our team is about sort of howdo we take that innovation
broader and wider to the worldand how do we actually tell good
stories that encourageeverybody, corporate,
non-corporate, small business,public policymakers, whatever,
(43:17):
whoever they may be, to sort ofbring that innovation to more
people.
Like I think at the end of theday, we're all coming down to
that.
And as an entrepreneur, you'regoing to be creating that seed,
and hopefully we can help fosterit, right?
That's the idea.
Chris, you have a similarperspective in your investment
strategies, right?
How do I fuel that andaccelerate that to move forward?
Chris Maher (43:35):
What's out there on the horizon that gets you the
most excited about the worldwe're moving into around
accessibility and creating amore inclusive world for
everybody?
Angela Lean (43:47):
It's my broken record spiel that I've been
talking about over and overagain, which is how can AI sort
of just accelerate the pace ofthis inclusion, right?
And doing it in such largescope.
And so part of the challenge,I think, is the disability
community is so diverse, right?
So the needs and the wantscan almost be sort of segmented
(44:09):
on an individual basis.
Because even though, you know,Chris, your daughter and myself
both have left-side hemiplegia,you know, I wear an AFO, she
doesn't, right?
She's younger.
I'm not.
Like there areother big differences?
But I just think maybetechnology can help both of us
(44:31):
in different ways.
I think that's the mostexciting thing.
And I also think just theamount of energy, I love my job
right now because it's soinnovative.
In corporate America, I'veworked in sales readiness, I've
worked in marketing, I've workedwith engineers.
Often, like you're part of alarger system.
I am not very high up in theorganization, but I have such
(44:53):
sort of agency and I have suchsort of ownership of what I want
to do.
And I have like free license todo that, partially because of
the technology, right?
And for me, that's exciting.
And I think your entrepreneursand other people like myself in
corporate America, it's thiswhite space that we get to
design and we get to makebetter. And I think there's an
opportunity to really haveimpact and to really sort of
(45:14):
make people's lives better day-to-day.
That's honestly what I'mexcited about.
And I know that sounds reallyhokey, but that's what gets me
up in the morning.
Chris Maher (45:22):
I love it.
I think great note to end on.
And so as we wrap up here,Angela, first of all, thank you
so much for joining us today.
It was such a wonderfulconversation.
But how can people learn moreabout you and the work you're
doing?
And we'll put these links inthe show notes.
Angela Lean (45:38):
I mean, just find me on LinkedIn, Angela Lean.
You know, I think that we'llput some links on the website,
and I would love to connect withfolks.
Probably that's the easiestway.
Chris Maher (45:46):
You got it.
Well, thank you so much,Angela.
Appreciate your time today.
Angela Lean (45:50):
Thank you.
Kelvin Crosby (45:50):
Well, and that wraps it up.
Investing in accessibility, asI always say.
Go live beyond your challenges,and we'll see you in two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast,where we invest in change for
(46:13):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to
www.samaritanpartners.com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(46:38):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know so we can spread the wordso that we can get access to all
by Investing in Accessibility.
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