July 7, 2025 • 32 mins
In this powerful episode of Investing in Accessibility, hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher welcome Ben Ogilvie, Head of Accessibility at ArcTouch and board member of the GAAD Foundation. Ben shares his deeply personal journey into accessibility—from adapting technology for his father after a life-changing accident to advocating for inclusive design following the birth of his son with a brain injury and epilepsy.
The conversation explores how Ben turned lived experiences into a career mission, ultimately shifting ArcTouch’s product philosophy to include a third pillar: accessibility, alongside usefulness and delight. Ben breaks down how ArcTouch supports clients—from scrappy startups to Fortune 100 corporations—by embedding accessibility into the entire product lifecycle. He emphasizes that accessibility is no longer a "why" conversation, but a “how,” and he illustrates the power of real user feedback over compliance checklists in driving change.
Key Topics Covered:
- Personal stories that fuel professional impact
- ArcTouch’s accessibility-first design philosophy
- Working with startups vs. large enterprises on inclusive design
- The Inclusive App Accelerator and its ecosystem of partners
- The role of AI and low-code platforms in scaling accessibility
- Strategic advocacy through GAAD Foundation and industry leadership
Links & Resources:
- Ben Ogilvie: LinkedIn
- ArchTouch: Website
- ArcTouch’s State of Mobile App Accessibility Report: Report
- GAAD Foundation: Website
- A11Y NYC Meetup: Website
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
(00:30):
.
Hey, it's good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and I got my host, Chris Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:43):
Good, my friend.
It's good to see you and to bewith you.
You're looking good today.
You got a haircut.
Kelvin Crosby (00:47):
Hey, I got my haircut, I got myself beautified
and the good thing is you guyscan't see me.
So, whether it's true or not,you never know.
Chris Maher (00:58):
It's true.
It's true, you are a handsomefellow buddy.
Kelvin Crosby (01:07):
Well, so I I tell you what's going to be
interesting about today.
As we go into this.
We're going to be talking aboutdesign and what does it look
like for an investmentopportunities and for us moving
forward and looking for accessfor all, and I think today's
guest guest really can help uswith that.
So kind of tell us a little bitmore who our guest is and kind
(01:29):
of where we're going.
Chris Maher (01:29):
You got it.
Thanks, my friend.
But I'm super excited aboutthis conversation today and
we'll get into how I met thiswonderful gentleman after I make
the introduction.
But let's introduce to thepodcast Ben Ogilvie, head of
accessibility at ArcTouch andalso a board member of the GAAD
Foundation.
Ben, welcome.
Ben Ogilvie (01:48):
Thanks a lot, Chris Kelvin.
Really happy to be here withyou guys.
Chris Maher (01:51):
So what's really interesting about how you and I
met is like there's this there'sthis thread where I met, early
on, a number of wonderful people, including yourself, but also
Jennison, Joe Devon, and thethread is the Perkins School for
the Blind and Sandy Lacey atthe how Innovation Center.
And so I met Jennison at adinner that they were hosting
(02:13):
and then I met you and Joe atanother dinner at CES in Vegas,
and that would have been Januaryof 2024, right, so we've got
Sandy and the folks at Perkinsand Howe to Thank so it's but so
great to have you here, myfriend, and really excited to
get into this conversation.
I think a great place to startwould be for you just to talk a
(02:35):
little bit about kind ofpre-ArcTouch and kind of GAAD
Foundation, about your work andpersonal background and
connection to disability andreally how you came to be
heading up accessibility atArcTouch.
It would be great.
Ben Ogilvie (02:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And just to quickly touch onour meeting, you know it turned
out we had to fly across thecountry, but it turns out we
lived down the road from eachother which was a great way to.
Now.
We kind of hold down the forton the East Coast and it's great
to have other folks in the areain Connecticut that focus on
disability inclusion.
(03:09):
My path into this work, as manypeople's is.
It starts with a personalconnection.
I, while I was in college, Istarted working for Apple and
then continued on thattrajectory for a number of years
after that and in 2009, I wasliving in the San Francisco Bay
Area working with Apple when mydad, who lived in Texas, was
(03:36):
training for a bicycling racefor his 60th birthday and came
around a corner in theneighborhood where I grew up and
collided with a delivery truckand became quadriplegic.
And I flew home from Californiato Houston to retrofit his
computer so that he could keephis job.
And it was way harder than itshould have been and I kind of
(04:02):
strapped together some duct tapeand bailing wire version of
custom software that I built ontop of some of the operating
system capabilities and then abunch of custom stuff combined
with some off-the-shelf thingsso that he could keep his job.
But it was just way harder thanit should have been, and I
thought what do people do ifthey don't have a computer nerd
in the family?
Something that's alreadylife-changing shouldn't also
(04:24):
have to be career ending.
But it almost was for him, andso that was kind of my getting
thrown into the deep end oflearning about accessibility.
And so I stayed at Apple for afew years after that, but I was
kind of more on the retailoperations and IT support side
of the house and I decided Iwanted to be closer to actually
(04:46):
building product and not justsupporting it.
So I came over to ArcTouch inthe beginning of 2013.
At the time, we were about a 20, 25-ish person, primarily iOS
and Android engineering shop,and had started to grow into
kind of upstream, into designand strategy, and so I came in
(05:08):
as a product manager where ourjob is to make sure things are
delivered on time, on budget andkind of targeting that lean
startup version of a minimumviable product for our clients
and getting things out the doorand start getting feedback.
Our founders had this conceptof not targeting a minimum
(05:33):
viable product, but targeting aminimum lovable product, and
what that meant to them wassomething that is both useful
but also delightfully designed.
And so those were the twopillars of what ArcTouch termed
a lovable product.
And so in my product managementrole, I continued to do kind of
(05:56):
stealth accessibility aroundthe edges for a while, as long
as nobody had questions abouttimeline or budget.
How could I kind of sneakthings in to make things a
little better along the way?
And you know, we build productsfor a broad range of companies
in basically every industry,from, you know, innovative
startups through Fortune 500sand everything in between.
(06:17):
B2B, B2C, you name it.
But I did.
I continued to do kind oflow-key accessibility for a
number of years while I built upthe skill set myself.
And then, in 2019, my wife and Ihad our first son and came to
find out he was born with abrain injury and epilepsy.
And spent a few months in theICU and came back to my
(06:43):
management and said, hey, Ican't be doing this work on the
side anymore.
This is the work I'm going tobe doing for the rest of my life
in some capacity, and I don'tknow if there's space for me to
do that here.
And the founders of the companysaid, basically, we'll make
space.
And they pulled me off of allmy other projects and gave me a
(07:04):
runway and a team to build aprogram around how do we, how do
we add a third pillar to thatconcept of a lovable product and
how do we build products thatare accessibility first?
So, so the three legs of thestool now are useful, delightful
and accessible, and so we'vegotten now to to kind of
continue doing that work withthose same kinds of clients that
(07:26):
we've always worked with, fromstrategy design development
across multiple technologystacks.
We don't just do mobile now.
We do lots of differenttechnologies, web and IoT and
wearables but now doing a lot ofclient education and process
development around how do wehelp those clients also
prioritize accessibility in thework that they're doing and that
(07:48):
we're building for them?
Kelvin Crosby (07:50):
I mean, I think, as you tell your story, like
it's kind of moving because youhad to go through one life
journey to get to the next.
You had to go through another.
I mean I call them, I call themtraumas.
You had to go through thoseexperiences which then made you
stronger and made you wiser.
It made you, like, realize.
This is where my vision is,this is where my focus is, this
(08:15):
is where I'm gonna go, andbecause of that passion and and
you're realizing, we're creatinga product not only helping
people with disabilities, butother people, and you're
realizing others.
And I kind of want to dive in alittle bit into the three tiers
a little bit, because I thinkthat's one thing that people
(08:38):
don't really realize.
You got to design a product,right.
You got to then think throughthe accessibility components and
then how are you going to getpeople to love the product?
Can you kind of share, justshortly, about what is that like
?
Like, when you guys get aproject, what does that look
(08:59):
like?
Ben Ogilvie (09:00):
Yeah, I mean we, we work the, the variety of
clients we work with and theprojects we work on is rivaled
only by the different kinds ofways we engage, depending on
where clients need us to kind ofjump in.
So we can start at the verybeginning with, I have a blank
whiteboard behind me right now,and that's often where we start
(09:21):
with clients is.
You know, they have a concept ofa product they want to build,
but maybe not a clearunderstanding so we start at the
very beginning of bluesky whatcould be and then go through a
series of work shops with themand take them through the
ideation and refine the idea andhelp them think through what
could be but then dial into whatmust be and take them through
(09:48):
that kind of lean startupapproach and serve as kind of an
outboard accelerator forbuilding that product and
getting it to market.
Other clients we work with aremuch further along, they're much
more mature, they have anexisting product and they need
additional hands or anadditional type of expertise to
jump in and help them get to amilestone by a certain deadline.
(10:12):
And so we do a combination ofkind of fully managed projects
and staff augmentation,depending on what clients need.
But in all cases, when andwhere we can we bring in how do
we include disabilitycommunities from that early
strategy stage?
How do we have conversationsabout how do we increase the
(10:32):
reach of this by making surewe're making it maximally useful
and accessible for the broadestpossible audience.
And we really do try to infusethat accessibility-first
thinking into each stage of theproduct development life cycle,
from requirements all the waythrough delivery and launch
monitoring and everything else.
Chris Maher (10:52):
So a couple quick comments.
First of all, thank you forsharing your personal story
about your dad and your son andyour family.
And not uncommon in our part ofthe market and certainly on
this podcast that we come intouch with people who have had
lived experience which reallydrives what they're doing with
their work and their career.
(11:12):
I mean, all of us are examplesof that, so thank you for
sharing that.
What is quite remarkable isthat you went to your bosses and
said, hey, I can't be doingthis on the side and kind of
undercover anymore.
This has to be front and centerin my work.
And so one the courage andreally leadership you took there
is fantastic.
(11:33):
And then the fact that theyhave the courage and leadership
to say no, no, no, let's do it.
And we need, we need more ofthat.
Like, I think part of whyaccessibility and inclusive
design has not accelerated morethan it has is a lack of
leadership.
But let's put that aside forright now.
But what's really exciting isyou're an agency that is working
(11:56):
with some of the largestcompanies in the world and
you're leading with that sort ofvision and with that
accessibility and really, andyou're pushing that direction.
It's really great to see thatthat it's not just startups that
are trying to, you know, bringthis innovation, but large
partners and vendors of thelargest companies in the world
are pushing them in thatdirection and showing them that,
(12:18):
hey, it's not as hard as youthink it is, it doesn't have to
be as expensive as you think itis and oh, by the way, it helps
your bottom line, right, and sothat's fantastic the work that
you guys do at ArcTouch.
Can you talk a little bit,there's a broad range of clients
you have, from early stagestartups to Fortune 100
companies.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe difference in working with
(12:40):
those two types of clients?
Ben Ogilvie (12:48):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know I, when we work
with startups, it's obviously adifferent, a different type of
prioritization and a differenttype of, you know, if you're
working with someone who's, youknow, trying to go from zero to
one, it's a differentconversation than if you're
working with a largeorganization that has funding
and it's just a matter offiguring out the resourcing and
(13:10):
prioritization and getting thestakeholders aligned.
There are certainlycommonalities in the types of
conversations we have.
Fortunately, over the last fiveor six years really, I have a
lot less of the conversationabout why and a lot more of the
conversation of how, which I seeas progress.
(13:34):
That doesn't mean that all ofour clients are are you know as
far along in their in theirjourney, but there's more
conversations about, oh yeah,that we know that's something
that we should be doing.
We just don't know how to do it.
Chris Maher (13:51):
That's super encouraging.
Ben Ogilvie (13:53):
Yeah, you know, nothing moves as quickly as we
would all in this space like itto, but the fact that it is
moving and that there are things, even given kind of headwinds
in one region or another, thatthere are things like the
European Accessibility Act thatare helping to encourage
progress and moving the needlein the right direction.
(14:14):
All of those things are comingtogether in a way that I think
still feels like the arc ofhistory is bending in the right
direction, slowly but surely.
When we work with startups, ifthey come to us, one thing that
I found really encouraging isthat more, more founders, I
think, come to us now willing tohave the conversation about
(14:38):
accessibility and and there'salways a trade-off in
prioritization, and sometimesthey're like we absolutely want
to do that, we want to figureout how to prioritize it, but
you know we can't do it rightnow because of these reasons,
and I will remind them or givethem data around how the cost
(15:00):
increases as the further you putit off.
But we act as an advisor.
We can't force clients to takea certain approach.
But we do have a lot of clientswho have come to us kind of
getting something out the doorand then do follow up and say,
okay, we're ready to tackleaccessibility now.
(15:21):
It's not perfect but given thevarious priorities that folks
have to work with, at least itis part of the conversation from
the beginning and that they dotend to come back to it.
When we're working with largeorganizations, multinationals, I
find that our greatest successis always in getting their
(15:46):
existing products in front ofusers with disabilities and
showing those clients the impactof inaccessibility.
You know I can talk all daylong about the implications of
legislation and potential riskand all those things, and those
do have to be part of theconversation a lot of times, but
(16:08):
five minutes of seeing someoneunable to use their product has
so much more weight than 30slides on risk assessment.
And often what I find with thelarge organizations is that the
teams that we are working withwhen we're starting are often
(16:32):
smaller teams within the largerorganization and we'll have
folks who are bought in at thatstage on a small team, on a
small project where we'restarting.
And one thing that's beenreally encouraging is that once
we can show that success withina small product team, we get to
start having conversations abouthow to approach accessibility
more broadly within thatorganization and start getting
(16:54):
connected with other teams andpeople saying, oh, how did you
do that?
And then we can kind of showcasethose smaller success stories
and it starts to build and insome cases we get to be kind of
the accessibility championwithin their org and in other
cases they've taken on themantle and start to build out
that culture internally and wekind of step back over time,
(17:17):
which is ultimately the goalbecause we want to drive that
culture change.
And that's part of also why I'mleading into the conversation
around my participation on theGAAD Foundation.
The goal of the GAAD Foundationis to change the culture of
(17:39):
software development and createaccessibility as a first-class
citizen.
So I get to kind of wear thosecombined hats, both in my role
at ArcTouch and more broadly aschampion and on the board of
GAAD Foundation.
Chris Maher (17:53):
I think what's really, again, encouraging about
your work with the largecorporations is that, and it's a
credit to you and yourorganization, is you've helped
them understand the value ofinvesting in accessibility.
Right, there is a hard and asoft return on investing in
accessibility for them.
(18:15):
It can impact their bottom lineand I love the fact that you
folks, I'm not surprised by it,that you truly are walking the
walk, or what is it Walking thewalk?
Walking the talk aboutincluding the community when
you're designing for yourclients, and not surprised at
how powerful that is when youprovide that feedback to your
(18:38):
corporate clients.
So that is just so encouragingthat the large corporates are
shifting from hey we need aninsurance policy against
litigation, we want to check thebox for ADA compliance to now
where they're like, oh no, thisis good for business, which is
fantastic to hear from someonewho's working with these large
corporations day to day.
I know you've done some otherwork on the startup side of
(19:02):
things and specifically aproject that you're involved in
down in Pittsburgh, and so youknow I think a lot of the
listeners that we have for thepodcast are in the startup world
.
People who work at startups,people who are founders and CEOs
of startups and can you talk alittle bit about the work you're
doing there and maybe just somethoughts or tips or takeaways
(19:22):
on what you believe startupsneed to be thinking about as
they are building their products, trying to figure out product
market fit and scale.
Ben Ogilvie (19:33):
Yeah, the program we're working on with University
of Pittsburgh is called TheInclusive App Accelerator.
It's a grant-funded five-yearprogram led by University of
Pittsburgh but with aconstellation of fantastic
partners, including ArcTouchserving as kind of primary
design and development partner,and then Nidlers Impact Center
(19:58):
and World Institute onDisabilities and some folks from
Perkins, and the list goes onand on.
Fable and Alliant are alsoalong with us.
And the goal of the program isto, over the course of five
years, help entrepreneurs withan idea that is specifically
(20:20):
focused around an app, a mobileapp designed for use by members
of disability communities,driving positive outcomes in
employment, communityparticipation, and health and
function.
And so each year of thefive-year program will bring in
(20:42):
four founders or entrepreneurswith an idea in that space and
take them through an acceleratorprogram to help them flesh out
the product idea, design it,develop it and bring it to
market.
And and help them think aboutthe sustainability of how do we
(21:03):
make sure that that both ispositively impacting their core
target demographic for theproduct.
But also think about how do we"yes and that and think about
(21:24):
the additional beyond theirprimary user group.
How do they expand the reachbeyond that group through
ensuring that it's fullyaccessible or as accessible as
it can be made.
It's a really great opportunityto get exposure to lots of
different pockets of need andlots of different pockets of
entrepreneurial thinking,specifically within the
(21:46):
disability tech space.
And when we are working withthose founders in particular,
they're already mission-driven,they're already there because
they've got an idea that oftenis connected to either personal
lived experience or folks intheir life, loved ones, who have
(22:08):
that need, folks in their life.
So when we're working with themto think about the product
market fit and the maximaladdressable market, the total
addressable market of theproduct beyond kind of their
personal experience.
This is the same thing Iexperienced when I was going
through things with my dad.
(22:28):
I saw the impact directly onhim, but it took a while for me
to understand how I could thinkabout things more broadly and
how they could reach a wideraudience.
So that's one of the thingsthat I'm really excited about
working on this program withUniversity of Pittsburgh.
(22:49):
We're partway into our firstcohort first year, so we should
have some of those first roundof apps coming out in the next
six months or so and just reallygreat concepts and ideas from a
wide range of different spaces.
It's a really, really greatprogram.
Chris Maher (23:09):
That's awesome and, by the way, what an all-star
team you've put together, allthose organizations and
companies, that are involved inthat.
That's amazing.
Is there a vision topotentially scale that and
expand it over time?
If things go well?
Ben Ogilvie (23:41):
Within the scope of the grant itself it's a fairly
fixed scope.
However, one of the ways thatwe thought about how do we scale
beyond the reach of the grantby itself is that we're actually
at Arctouch.
We work across lots ofdifferent technology stacks.
We work in lots of differentways depending on our clients,
but for this grant program inparticular, we are doing the
design and development using across-platform mobile app
development framework calledFlutter Flow.
Flutter Flow is not currentlyaccessible.
(24:02):
We're working directly with theFlutter Flow team to both
conduct an audit and remediationof the apps that we're building
that come out of the platform,so that what we build is
accessible, and we're providingthat feedback of what we had to
manually remediate back to theFlutter Flow product team so
that they can improve theoutputs from the platform.
(24:23):
But at the same time, we'realso conducting audits and
providing feedback on theusability of the platform itself
.
The goal, ideally, is to have atleast one of the cross-platform
development platforms out inthe market be accessible, to
spark some competition in thatspace.
And effectively, you know, lotsof entrepreneurs don't have the
(24:48):
funding to come hire an agencylike ArcTouch to do the full
design and development for them.
But if they have the idea, ifthey don't happen to have the
design or development expertise,but they can use a low code
platform like Flutter Flow andit works with their assistive
technology to build it andlaunch it themselves, without
having to rely on a customdesign and development agency,
(25:11):
there's more space for morepeople to bring ideas to market.
Chris Maher (25:15):
So can we dig into that for a little bit?
So a couple of things that,because you're a part of your
work is like, you're there atthat early stage and probably
seen a lot of cutting edge stuffand like, and you've, you've
been in the accessibility spacefor, you're a veteran.
What are you seeing that isgetting you excited about the
future?
So like, low code platforms, AI, of course, but you can speak
(25:40):
to those anything else what elseis getting you excited about us
being able to create a moreaccessible and inclusive world
moving forward?
Ben Ogilvie (25:49):
I mean, there's plenty.
There's plenty to be excitedabout, there's plenty to be
cautiously optimistic about.
You know, we all know the risksof AI run amok when is comes to
(26:11):
exclusion and continuing tocompound existing biases and
widen the divide.
But things like, Joe Devon oneof the of the founders of GAAD
recently released, under the GADFoundation, released the AI
model accessibility checker.
T he goal is to provide feedbackto the foundation model
(26:31):
developers themselves to improvethe accessibility of code
generated by those models usingAMAC baseline measurements to
test that and then feed it backso that those models get better
over time.
Additionally, GitHub, which iswhat many, I would say probably
most, developers use as thefoundation for building their
code repositories at this point,especially startups.
(26:54):
I think GitHub is the mostwidely adopted platform for
startups.
Ed Summers, the head ofaccessibility at GitHub, has
taken the GAD pledge for thisyear to continue to improve the
accessibility of the GitHubplatform itself and, working
with Microsoft and Copilot, theyalso are working to improve the
(27:18):
accessibility recommendationsof code that developers commit
on the platform.
So things like that, where it'sthe points of leverage in the
development stack and findingthe right places to inject AI to
maximize reach and impact.
I'm really excited that theright people are having those
(27:39):
conversations and are involvedin those those discussions.
Microsoft has done anincredible job of building
Copilot, building accessibilityinto Copilot, and they've got
Jenny Lay-Flurrie and otheramazing champions all the way up
to their CEO that have a strongpersonal commitment to
(27:59):
accessibility, and the fact thatthose global organizations are
in the chat, as it were, when itcomes to AI gives me hope that
AI is going to ultimately drivetowards more accessible products
.
And even for people who don'thave the expertise, who don't
have the experience and don'thave the time, that there are
tools by default becomingavailable for more designers and
(28:23):
developers to at least takeaccessibility into account and
consider it from the beginning,even if it's not something
that's on their radar already.
Chris Maher (28:32):
Yeah, and that's that's really exciting that
large players like that aremaking the commitment, because
my sense is you get a couple, afew of those large players to
commit to it.
Hopefully it creates the dominoeffect, right.
The others will follow.
But what's interesting aboutthose two organizations?
And tell me if I'm wrong, butEd Summers is blind, correct.
Ben Ogilvie (28:54):
Yes,
Chris Maher (28:55):
I think I think you or Joe introduced me to him at
CSUN a couple of years ago.
and Jenny Lay- Flurris has adisability.
Satya Nadella son had adisability before he
unfortunately passed, and soagain, it gets back to
leadership, but also it's it'snot just leadership, but it's
also lived experience thatinfuses that leadership.
And so, that also gets back tomaking sure that everyone has a
(29:17):
seat at the table.
And so, super exciting, you'reinvolved in a number of so many
cool projects.
So we're kind of gettingtowards the end of our time here
.
How can people connect with you, learn more about the work
you're doing at ArcTouch, learnmore about the work that you
folks are doing at the GAADFoundation?
If you can share that with us,we'll make sure we post that
also in the show notes.
Ben Ogilvie (29:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Folks can follow the work we'redoing at ArcTouch just ARCTOUCH
.
com A-R-C-T-O-U-C-H.
com.
One other plug there is werecently released our State of
Mobile App Accessibility Reportwhere we looked at top 50 apps
across five different industriesand measured the accessibility,
not from a web contentaccessibility guidelines,
(30:02):
technical conformance standpoint, but from a usability
standpoint across user journeys,and gathered user feedback and
provided that report.
So, folks can check that reportout.
It's free at arctouch.
com, slash somaa, s-o-m-a-a.
One thing we found was that 72%of user journeys still are
inaccessible in the apps wetested.
(30:22):
So lots of room for improvementin mobile apps.
And then, as far as the workwe're doing at GAD Foundation,
folks can go to gaad.
foundation and check that out.
Lots of great stuff going onthere.
If anybody's in the New Yorkarea, I I'm one of the
co-organizers for theAccessibility New York City
MeetUp every month so we bringin great speakers.
(30:44):
Folks can find out about thatat meetup.
com slash a11y nyc.
And then, lastly, people canfind me on LinkedIn.
I always am very happy to haveconversations with anybody
that's interested in inclusivedesign, whatever stage of your
career you're at or whateverstage your company is at.
I just love talking about thisbecause the more these
conversations happen and themore we share best practices,
(31:08):
the sooner we get to the world,that selfishly, I need my son to
grow up in.
Chris Maher (31:14):
I hear you, brother .
You're a busy man.
I don't know how you find thetime to squeeze all that stuff
in, but very grateful that youdo, and we're going to have to
have you back on the show againto dig deeper into a few of
these things.
I think we just kind of hit thetip of the iceberg on this one.
I know you're super busy.
Thank you for spending the timewith us and having this
(31:34):
conversation, and you are thebest, my friend.
We really appreciate it.
Ben Ogilvie (31:38):
Truly appreciate it , guys.
Great to be on.
Kelvin Crosby (31:42):
Well, that wraps up Investing in Accessibility
and go live beyond yourchallenges and we'll see you in
two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast,where we invest in change for
(32:02):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(32:26):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
(00:30):
.
Hey, it's good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility.
I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,and I got my host, Chris Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:43):
Good, my friend.
It's good to see you and to bewith you.
You're looking good today.
You got a haircut.
Kelvin Crosby (00:47):
Hey, I got my haircut, I got myself beautified
and the good thing is you guyscan't see me.
So, whether it's true or not,you never know.
Chris Maher (00:58):
It's true.
It's true, you are a handsomefellow buddy.
Kelvin Crosby (01:07):
Well, so I I tell you what's going to be
interesting about today.
As we go into this.
We're going to be talking aboutdesign and what does it look
like for an investmentopportunities and for us moving
forward and looking for accessfor all, and I think today's
guest guest really can help uswith that.
So kind of tell us a little bitmore who our guest is and kind
(01:29):
of where we're going.
Chris Maher (01:29):
You got it.
Thanks, my friend.
But I'm super excited aboutthis conversation today and
we'll get into how I met thiswonderful gentleman after I make
the introduction.
But let's introduce to thepodcast Ben Ogilvie, head of
accessibility at ArcTouch andalso a board member of the GAAD
Foundation.
Ben, welcome.
Ben Ogilvie (01:48):
Thanks a lot, Chris Kelvin.
Really happy to be here withyou guys.
Chris Maher (01:51):
So what's really interesting about how you and I
met is like there's this there'sthis thread where I met, early
on, a number of wonderful people, including yourself, but also
Jennison, Joe Devon, and thethread is the Perkins School for
the Blind and Sandy Lacey atthe how Innovation Center.
And so I met Jennison at adinner that they were hosting
(02:13):
and then I met you and Joe atanother dinner at CES in Vegas,
and that would have been Januaryof 2024, right, so we've got
Sandy and the folks at Perkinsand Howe to Thank so it's but so
great to have you here, myfriend, and really excited to
get into this conversation.
I think a great place to startwould be for you just to talk a
(02:35):
little bit about kind ofpre-ArcTouch and kind of GAAD
Foundation, about your work andpersonal background and
connection to disability andreally how you came to be
heading up accessibility atArcTouch.
It would be great.
Ben Ogilvie (02:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And just to quickly touch onour meeting, you know it turned
out we had to fly across thecountry, but it turns out we
lived down the road from eachother which was a great way to.
Now.
We kind of hold down the forton the East Coast and it's great
to have other folks in the areain Connecticut that focus on
disability inclusion.
(03:09):
My path into this work, as manypeople's is.
It starts with a personalconnection.
I, while I was in college, Istarted working for Apple and
then continued on thattrajectory for a number of years
after that and in 2009, I wasliving in the San Francisco Bay
Area working with Apple when mydad, who lived in Texas, was
(03:36):
training for a bicycling racefor his 60th birthday and came
around a corner in theneighborhood where I grew up and
collided with a delivery truckand became quadriplegic.
And I flew home from Californiato Houston to retrofit his
computer so that he could keephis job.
And it was way harder than itshould have been and I kind of
(04:02):
strapped together some duct tapeand bailing wire version of
custom software that I built ontop of some of the operating
system capabilities and then abunch of custom stuff combined
with some off-the-shelf thingsso that he could keep his job.
But it was just way harder thanit should have been, and I
thought what do people do ifthey don't have a computer nerd
in the family?
Something that's alreadylife-changing shouldn't also
(04:24):
have to be career ending.
But it almost was for him, andso that was kind of my getting
thrown into the deep end oflearning about accessibility.
And so I stayed at Apple for afew years after that, but I was
kind of more on the retailoperations and IT support side
of the house and I decided Iwanted to be closer to actually
(04:46):
building product and not justsupporting it.
So I came over to ArcTouch inthe beginning of 2013.
At the time, we were about a 20, 25-ish person, primarily iOS
and Android engineering shop,and had started to grow into
kind of upstream, into designand strategy, and so I came in
(05:08):
as a product manager where ourjob is to make sure things are
delivered on time, on budget andkind of targeting that lean
startup version of a minimumviable product for our clients
and getting things out the doorand start getting feedback.
Our founders had this conceptof not targeting a minimum
(05:33):
viable product, but targeting aminimum lovable product, and
what that meant to them wassomething that is both useful
but also delightfully designed.
And so those were the twopillars of what ArcTouch termed
a lovable product.
And so in my product managementrole, I continued to do kind of
(05:56):
stealth accessibility aroundthe edges for a while, as long
as nobody had questions abouttimeline or budget.
How could I kind of sneakthings in to make things a
little better along the way?
And you know, we build productsfor a broad range of companies
in basically every industry,from, you know, innovative
startups through Fortune 500sand everything in between.
(06:17):
B2B, B2C, you name it.
But I did.
I continued to do kind oflow-key accessibility for a
number of years while I built upthe skill set myself.
And then, in 2019, my wife and Ihad our first son and came to
find out he was born with abrain injury and epilepsy.
And spent a few months in theICU and came back to my
(06:43):
management and said, hey, Ican't be doing this work on the
side anymore.
This is the work I'm going tobe doing for the rest of my life
in some capacity, and I don'tknow if there's space for me to
do that here.
And the founders of the companysaid, basically, we'll make
space.
And they pulled me off of allmy other projects and gave me a
(07:04):
runway and a team to build aprogram around how do we, how do
we add a third pillar to thatconcept of a lovable product and
how do we build products thatare accessibility first?
So, so the three legs of thestool now are useful, delightful
and accessible, and so we'vegotten now to to kind of
continue doing that work withthose same kinds of clients that
(07:26):
we've always worked with, fromstrategy design development
across multiple technologystacks.
We don't just do mobile now.
We do lots of differenttechnologies, web and IoT and
wearables but now doing a lot ofclient education and process
development around how do wehelp those clients also
prioritize accessibility in thework that they're doing and that
(07:48):
we're building for them?
Kelvin Crosby (07:50):
I mean, I think, as you tell your story, like
it's kind of moving because youhad to go through one life
journey to get to the next.
You had to go through another.
I mean I call them, I call themtraumas.
You had to go through thoseexperiences which then made you
stronger and made you wiser.
It made you, like, realize.
This is where my vision is,this is where my focus is, this
(08:15):
is where I'm gonna go, andbecause of that passion and and
you're realizing, we're creatinga product not only helping
people with disabilities, butother people, and you're
realizing others.
And I kind of want to dive in alittle bit into the three tiers
a little bit, because I thinkthat's one thing that people
(08:38):
don't really realize.
You got to design a product,right.
You got to then think throughthe accessibility components and
then how are you going to getpeople to love the product?
Can you kind of share, justshortly, about what is that like
?
Like, when you guys get aproject, what does that look
(08:59):
like?
Ben Ogilvie (09:00):
Yeah, I mean we, we work the, the variety of
clients we work with and theprojects we work on is rivaled
only by the different kinds ofways we engage, depending on
where clients need us to kind ofjump in.
So we can start at the verybeginning with, I have a blank
whiteboard behind me right now,and that's often where we start
(09:21):
with clients is.
You know, they have a concept ofa product they want to build,
but maybe not a clearunderstanding so we start at the
very beginning of bluesky whatcould be and then go through a
series of work shops with themand take them through the
ideation and refine the idea andhelp them think through what
could be but then dial into whatmust be and take them through
(09:48):
that kind of lean startupapproach and serve as kind of an
outboard accelerator forbuilding that product and
getting it to market.
Other clients we work with aremuch further along, they're much
more mature, they have anexisting product and they need
additional hands or anadditional type of expertise to
jump in and help them get to amilestone by a certain deadline.
(10:12):
And so we do a combination ofkind of fully managed projects
and staff augmentation,depending on what clients need.
But in all cases, when andwhere we can we bring in how do
we include disabilitycommunities from that early
strategy stage?
How do we have conversationsabout how do we increase the
(10:32):
reach of this by making surewe're making it maximally useful
and accessible for the broadestpossible audience.
And we really do try to infusethat accessibility-first
thinking into each stage of theproduct development life cycle,
from requirements all the waythrough delivery and launch
monitoring and everything else.
Chris Maher (10:52):
So a couple quick comments.
First of all, thank you forsharing your personal story
about your dad and your son andyour family.
And not uncommon in our part ofthe market and certainly on
this podcast that we come intouch with people who have had
lived experience which reallydrives what they're doing with
their work and their career.
(11:12):
I mean, all of us are examplesof that, so thank you for
sharing that.
What is quite remarkable isthat you went to your bosses and
said, hey, I can't be doingthis on the side and kind of
undercover anymore.
This has to be front and centerin my work.
And so one the courage andreally leadership you took there
is fantastic.
(11:33):
And then the fact that theyhave the courage and leadership
to say no, no, no, let's do it.
And we need, we need more ofthat.
Like, I think part of whyaccessibility and inclusive
design has not accelerated morethan it has is a lack of
leadership.
But let's put that aside forright now.
But what's really exciting isyou're an agency that is working
(11:56):
with some of the largestcompanies in the world and
you're leading with that sort ofvision and with that
accessibility and really, andyou're pushing that direction.
It's really great to see thatthat it's not just startups that
are trying to, you know, bringthis innovation, but large
partners and vendors of thelargest companies in the world
are pushing them in thatdirection and showing them that,
(12:18):
hey, it's not as hard as youthink it is, it doesn't have to
be as expensive as you think itis and oh, by the way, it helps
your bottom line, right, and sothat's fantastic the work that
you guys do at ArcTouch.
Can you talk a little bit,there's a broad range of clients
you have, from early stagestartups to Fortune 100
companies.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe difference in working with
(12:40):
those two types of clients?
Ben Ogilvie (12:48):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know I, when we work
with startups, it's obviously adifferent, a different type of
prioritization and a differenttype of, you know, if you're
working with someone who's, youknow, trying to go from zero to
one, it's a differentconversation than if you're
working with a largeorganization that has funding
and it's just a matter offiguring out the resourcing and
(13:10):
prioritization and getting thestakeholders aligned.
There are certainlycommonalities in the types of
conversations we have.
Fortunately, over the last fiveor six years really, I have a
lot less of the conversationabout why and a lot more of the
conversation of how, which I seeas progress.
(13:34):
That doesn't mean that all ofour clients are are you know as
far along in their in theirjourney, but there's more
conversations about, oh yeah,that we know that's something
that we should be doing.
We just don't know how to do it.
Chris Maher (13:51):
That's super encouraging.
Ben Ogilvie (13:53):
Yeah, you know, nothing moves as quickly as we
would all in this space like itto, but the fact that it is
moving and that there are things, even given kind of headwinds
in one region or another, thatthere are things like the
European Accessibility Act thatare helping to encourage
progress and moving the needlein the right direction.
(14:14):
All of those things are comingtogether in a way that I think
still feels like the arc ofhistory is bending in the right
direction, slowly but surely.
When we work with startups, ifthey come to us, one thing that
I found really encouraging isthat more, more founders, I
think, come to us now willing tohave the conversation about
(14:38):
accessibility and and there'salways a trade-off in
prioritization, and sometimesthey're like we absolutely want
to do that, we want to figureout how to prioritize it, but
you know we can't do it rightnow because of these reasons,
and I will remind them or givethem data around how the cost
(15:00):
increases as the further you putit off.
But we act as an advisor.
We can't force clients to takea certain approach.
But we do have a lot of clientswho have come to us kind of
getting something out the doorand then do follow up and say,
okay, we're ready to tackleaccessibility now.
(15:21):
It's not perfect but given thevarious priorities that folks
have to work with, at least itis part of the conversation from
the beginning and that they dotend to come back to it.
When we're working with largeorganizations, multinationals, I
find that our greatest successis always in getting their
(15:46):
existing products in front ofusers with disabilities and
showing those clients the impactof inaccessibility.
You know I can talk all daylong about the implications of
legislation and potential riskand all those things, and those
do have to be part of theconversation a lot of times, but
(16:08):
five minutes of seeing someoneunable to use their product has
so much more weight than 30slides on risk assessment.
And often what I find with thelarge organizations is that the
teams that we are working withwhen we're starting are often
(16:32):
smaller teams within the largerorganization and we'll have
folks who are bought in at thatstage on a small team, on a
small project where we'restarting.
And one thing that's beenreally encouraging is that once
we can show that success withina small product team, we get to
start having conversations abouthow to approach accessibility
more broadly within thatorganization and start getting
(16:54):
connected with other teams andpeople saying, oh, how did you
do that?
And then we can kind of showcasethose smaller success stories
and it starts to build and insome cases we get to be kind of
the accessibility championwithin their org and in other
cases they've taken on themantle and start to build out
that culture internally and wekind of step back over time,
(17:17):
which is ultimately the goalbecause we want to drive that
culture change.
And that's part of also why I'mleading into the conversation
around my participation on theGAAD Foundation.
The goal of the GAAD Foundationis to change the culture of
(17:39):
software development and createaccessibility as a first-class
citizen.
So I get to kind of wear thosecombined hats, both in my role
at ArcTouch and more broadly aschampion and on the board of
GAAD Foundation.
Chris Maher (17:53):
I think what's really, again, encouraging about
your work with the largecorporations is that, and it's a
credit to you and yourorganization, is you've helped
them understand the value ofinvesting in accessibility.
Right, there is a hard and asoft return on investing in
accessibility for them.
(18:15):
It can impact their bottom lineand I love the fact that you
folks, I'm not surprised by it,that you truly are walking the
walk, or what is it Walking thewalk?
Walking the talk aboutincluding the community when
you're designing for yourclients, and not surprised at
how powerful that is when youprovide that feedback to your
(18:38):
corporate clients.
So that is just so encouragingthat the large corporates are
shifting from hey we need aninsurance policy against
litigation, we want to check thebox for ADA compliance to now
where they're like, oh no, thisis good for business, which is
fantastic to hear from someonewho's working with these large
corporations day to day.
I know you've done some otherwork on the startup side of
(19:02):
things and specifically aproject that you're involved in
down in Pittsburgh, and so youknow I think a lot of the
listeners that we have for thepodcast are in the startup world
.
People who work at startups,people who are founders and CEOs
of startups and can you talk alittle bit about the work you're
doing there and maybe just somethoughts or tips or takeaways
(19:22):
on what you believe startupsneed to be thinking about as
they are building their products, trying to figure out product
market fit and scale.
Ben Ogilvie (19:33):
Yeah, the program we're working on with University
of Pittsburgh is called TheInclusive App Accelerator.
It's a grant-funded five-yearprogram led by University of
Pittsburgh but with aconstellation of fantastic
partners, including ArcTouchserving as kind of primary
design and development partner,and then Nidlers Impact Center
(19:58):
and World Institute onDisabilities and some folks from
Perkins, and the list goes onand on.
Fable and Alliant are alsoalong with us.
And the goal of the program isto, over the course of five
years, help entrepreneurs withan idea that is specifically
(20:20):
focused around an app, a mobileapp designed for use by members
of disability communities,driving positive outcomes in
employment, communityparticipation, and health and
function.
And so each year of thefive-year program will bring in
(20:42):
four founders or entrepreneurswith an idea in that space and
take them through an acceleratorprogram to help them flesh out
the product idea, design it,develop it and bring it to
market.
And and help them think aboutthe sustainability of how do we
(21:03):
make sure that that both ispositively impacting their core
target demographic for theproduct.
But also think about how do we"yes and that and think about
(21:24):
the additional beyond theirprimary user group.
How do they expand the reachbeyond that group through
ensuring that it's fullyaccessible or as accessible as
it can be made.
It's a really great opportunityto get exposure to lots of
different pockets of need andlots of different pockets of
entrepreneurial thinking,specifically within the
(21:46):
disability tech space.
And when we are working withthose founders in particular,
they're already mission-driven,they're already there because
they've got an idea that oftenis connected to either personal
lived experience or folks intheir life, loved ones, who have
(22:08):
that need, folks in their life.
So when we're working with themto think about the product
market fit and the maximaladdressable market, the total
addressable market of theproduct beyond kind of their
personal experience.
This is the same thing Iexperienced when I was going
through things with my dad.
(22:28):
I saw the impact directly onhim, but it took a while for me
to understand how I could thinkabout things more broadly and
how they could reach a wideraudience.
So that's one of the thingsthat I'm really excited about
working on this program withUniversity of Pittsburgh.
(22:49):
We're partway into our firstcohort first year, so we should
have some of those first roundof apps coming out in the next
six months or so and just reallygreat concepts and ideas from a
wide range of different spaces.
It's a really, really greatprogram.
Chris Maher (23:09):
That's awesome and, by the way, what an all-star
team you've put together, allthose organizations and
companies, that are involved inthat.
That's amazing.
Is there a vision topotentially scale that and
expand it over time?
If things go well?
Ben Ogilvie (23:41):
Within the scope of the grant itself it's a fairly
fixed scope.
However, one of the ways thatwe thought about how do we scale
beyond the reach of the grantby itself is that we're actually
at Arctouch.
We work across lots ofdifferent technology stacks.
We work in lots of differentways depending on our clients,
but for this grant program inparticular, we are doing the
design and development using across-platform mobile app
development framework calledFlutter Flow.
Flutter Flow is not currentlyaccessible.
(24:02):
We're working directly with theFlutter Flow team to both
conduct an audit and remediationof the apps that we're building
that come out of the platform,so that what we build is
accessible, and we're providingthat feedback of what we had to
manually remediate back to theFlutter Flow product team so
that they can improve theoutputs from the platform.
(24:23):
But at the same time, we'realso conducting audits and
providing feedback on theusability of the platform itself
.
The goal, ideally, is to have atleast one of the cross-platform
development platforms out inthe market be accessible, to
spark some competition in thatspace.
And effectively, you know, lotsof entrepreneurs don't have the
(24:48):
funding to come hire an agencylike ArcTouch to do the full
design and development for them.
But if they have the idea, ifthey don't happen to have the
design or development expertise,but they can use a low code
platform like Flutter Flow andit works with their assistive
technology to build it andlaunch it themselves, without
having to rely on a customdesign and development agency,
(25:11):
there's more space for morepeople to bring ideas to market.
Chris Maher (25:15):
So can we dig into that for a little bit?
So a couple of things that,because you're a part of your
work is like, you're there atthat early stage and probably
seen a lot of cutting edge stuffand like, and you've, you've
been in the accessibility spacefor, you're a veteran.
What are you seeing that isgetting you excited about the
future?
So like, low code platforms, AI, of course, but you can speak
(25:40):
to those anything else what elseis getting you excited about us
being able to create a moreaccessible and inclusive world
moving forward?
Ben Ogilvie (25:49):
I mean, there's plenty.
There's plenty to be excitedabout, there's plenty to be
cautiously optimistic about.
You know, we all know the risksof AI run amok when is comes to
(26:11):
exclusion and continuing tocompound existing biases and
widen the divide.
But things like, Joe Devon oneof the of the founders of GAAD
recently released, under the GADFoundation, released the AI
model accessibility checker.
T he goal is to provide feedbackto the foundation model
(26:31):
developers themselves to improvethe accessibility of code
generated by those models usingAMAC baseline measurements to
test that and then feed it backso that those models get better
over time.
Additionally, GitHub, which iswhat many, I would say probably
most, developers use as thefoundation for building their
code repositories at this point,especially startups.
(26:54):
I think GitHub is the mostwidely adopted platform for
startups.
Ed Summers, the head ofaccessibility at GitHub, has
taken the GAD pledge for thisyear to continue to improve the
accessibility of the GitHubplatform itself and, working
with Microsoft and Copilot, theyalso are working to improve the
(27:18):
accessibility recommendationsof code that developers commit
on the platform.
So things like that, where it'sthe points of leverage in the
development stack and findingthe right places to inject AI to
maximize reach and impact.
I'm really excited that theright people are having those
(27:39):
conversations and are involvedin those those discussions.
Microsoft has done anincredible job of building
Copilot, building accessibilityinto Copilot, and they've got
Jenny Lay-Flurrie and otheramazing champions all the way up
to their CEO that have a strongpersonal commitment to
(27:59):
accessibility, and the fact thatthose global organizations are
in the chat, as it were, when itcomes to AI gives me hope that
AI is going to ultimately drivetowards more accessible products
.
And even for people who don'thave the expertise, who don't
have the experience and don'thave the time, that there are
tools by default becomingavailable for more designers and
(28:23):
developers to at least takeaccessibility into account and
consider it from the beginning,even if it's not something
that's on their radar already.
Chris Maher (28:32):
Yeah, and that's that's really exciting that
large players like that aremaking the commitment, because
my sense is you get a couple, afew of those large players to
commit to it.
Hopefully it creates the dominoeffect, right.
The others will follow.
But what's interesting aboutthose two organizations?
And tell me if I'm wrong, butEd Summers is blind, correct.
Ben Ogilvie (28:54):
Yes,
Chris Maher (28:55):
I think I think you or Joe introduced me to him at
CSUN a couple of years ago.
and Jenny Lay- Flurris has adisability.
Satya Nadella son had adisability before he
unfortunately passed, and soagain, it gets back to
leadership, but also it's it'snot just leadership, but it's
also lived experience thatinfuses that leadership.
And so, that also gets back tomaking sure that everyone has a
(29:17):
seat at the table.
And so, super exciting, you'reinvolved in a number of so many
cool projects.
So we're kind of gettingtowards the end of our time here
.
How can people connect with you, learn more about the work
you're doing at ArcTouch, learnmore about the work that you
folks are doing at the GAADFoundation?
If you can share that with us,we'll make sure we post that
also in the show notes.
Ben Ogilvie (29:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Folks can follow the work we'redoing at ArcTouch just ARCTOUCH
.
com A-R-C-T-O-U-C-H.
com.
One other plug there is werecently released our State of
Mobile App Accessibility Reportwhere we looked at top 50 apps
across five different industriesand measured the accessibility,
not from a web contentaccessibility guidelines,
(30:02):
technical conformance standpoint, but from a usability
standpoint across user journeys,and gathered user feedback and
provided that report.
So, folks can check that reportout.
It's free at arctouch.
com, slash somaa, s-o-m-a-a.
One thing we found was that 72%of user journeys still are
inaccessible in the apps wetested.
(30:22):
So lots of room for improvementin mobile apps.
And then, as far as the workwe're doing at GAD Foundation,
folks can go to gaad.
foundation and check that out.
Lots of great stuff going onthere.
If anybody's in the New Yorkarea, I I'm one of the
co-organizers for theAccessibility New York City
MeetUp every month so we bringin great speakers.
(30:44):
Folks can find out about thatat meetup.
com slash a11y nyc.
And then, lastly, people canfind me on LinkedIn.
I always am very happy to haveconversations with anybody
that's interested in inclusivedesign, whatever stage of your
career you're at or whateverstage your company is at.
I just love talking about thisbecause the more these
conversations happen and themore we share best practices,
(31:08):
the sooner we get to the world,that selfishly, I need my son to
grow up in.
Chris Maher (31:14):
I hear you, brother .
You're a busy man.
I don't know how you find thetime to squeeze all that stuff
in, but very grateful that youdo, and we're going to have to
have you back on the show againto dig deeper into a few of
these things.
I think we just kind of hit thetip of the iceberg on this one.
I know you're super busy.
Thank you for spending the timewith us and having this
(31:34):
conversation, and you are thebest, my friend.
We really appreciate it.
Ben Ogilvie (31:38):
Truly appreciate it , guys.
Great to be on.
Kelvin Crosby (31:42):
Well, that wraps up Investing in Accessibility
and go live beyond yourchallenges and we'll see you in
two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast,where we invest in change for
(32:02):
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
(32:26):
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
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