June 8, 2025 • 50 mins
In this powerful episode, hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher sit down with AnnMarie Killian, CEO of TDIforAccess, to explore her personal journey as a deaf woman and longtime advocate for accessibility and inclusion. AnnMarie shares her experience growing up in a hearing family, discovering American Sign Language later in life, and the challenges and triumphs that shaped her leadership.
The conversation covers:
- The richness of Deaf culture and identity
- Navigating communication and relationships as a deaf individual
- The importance of universal design that benefits everyone
- How lived experience drives policy and innovation
- TDI’s bipartisan advocacy work on major initiatives like CVTA and NG911
- The need for cross-disability collaboration to create more inclusive technology and infrastructure
AnnMarie also previews the upcoming Wawability Summit, celebrating the 35th anniversary of the ADA with performances and panels that spotlight disability talent, leadership, and innovation.
This episode is a celebration of resilience, representation, and the power of community to drive systemic change.
Links & Resources:
AnnMarie Killian: LinkedIn
TDIforAccess: Website
Wawability Summit: Website
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
(00:28):
.
Hey, it's good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility, and
I'm so excited about today'sguest and truly this is going to
be an be an experience.
It's gonna be full of laughterand we're gonna stumble over
(00:49):
each other, but I tell you it'sgonna be a fun show.
But before I introduce you toour guest, our amazing guest I
tell you she's awesome, let meintroduce to my co-host, Chris
Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (01:03):
Hey, Kelvin, good to be with you, my friend, how
you doing.
Kelvin Crosby (01:06):
I'm doing great.
I'm so excited about today'sguest and I'm excited to really
really show people that peoplewith deafness can really do a
podcast and live beyond theirchallenges, and I tell you what
this lady doing I'm superexcited to share with everybody.
(01:27):
So kind of tell us, Chris, whois this lady that we're hinting
at and how awesome is this lady?
Chris Maher (01:36):
Celvin.
I couldn't agree more.
I am super excited about thisepisode today because our guest
is an amazing person and,without further ado, let's
introduce Anne-Marie Killian,who is the CEO of TDI for Access
, which is an amazingorganization which we're going
to get into momentarily.
(01:56):
But, Anne-Marie, welcome to theshow.
AnnMarie Killian (01:59):
Thank you so much, Kelvin and Chris.
I'm so honored to be invited tothis podcast.
I've been following you whenyou post on LinkedIn.
I've been enjoying expanding myhorizons and listening in to
some of the shows you haveelevated to the platform so I
want to thank you again for thisinvitation it's really a
pleasure to be here with youboth.
Especially since I had thepleasure meeting you and
(02:27):
witnessing how well you twobehave when you're hanging out.
I thought for sure there'd besome bantering taking place
before we got some conversationsgoing, so I appreciate you
being at your best behavior.
Kelvin Crosby (02:47):
You got me on my toes there, AnnMarie, because
when I met you I was trying tofigure out is this lady deaf or
not, or just I wasn't surebecause I couldn't see you.
And then and then you startedtalking to me and then you said,
Kelvin, speak slower so I canread your lips.
(03:08):
I'm like, oh yes, I'll startsigning.
And of course my signing isgarbage.
I can do a little bit.
AnnMarie Killian (03:18):
Oh, your signing's not garbage.
I'm impressed.
I mean, if you don't use itevery day, you naturally may
experience some loss of memory,but I'm concerned that you don't
use it every day.
You do pretty well and you'relaughing at yourself because you
think I'm just feeding you.
Chris Maher (03:43):
This is going to be an amazing episode.
Before we started recording, wehad about 10 minutes of
fantastic banter going back andforth and also figuring out all
the technology for this, becauseso for our audience, as
everybody knows, Kelvin is deaf/blind, AnnM arie is deaf.
Kelvin, who is the amazingtechnological wizard behind this
(04:07):
whole podcast, has had to setup a few things on the back end
so we can capture everything forourselves, but also so we can
communicate the most effectiveway.
So we've got transcription andcaptioning and Kelvin is using a
couple of different mixers onthe back end so he'll be able to
edit.
It's just awesome and I'm soexcited for this.
(04:30):
As we get into things, AnneMarie, why don't you give people a
little bit of your personalbackground?
And I'd love for you to startoff with your personal
background and connection todisability and specifically the
deaf community.
And once you do that, I'm goingto tell a couple of wonderful
(04:50):
stories about you and how you'vebeen so generous and kind to me
as I've embarked on thisjourney.
But let's start with yourpersonal background, about your
connection to the deaf communityand what it was like growing up
within your family.
AnnMarie Killian (05:03):
Thank you, Chris.
Well, first and foremost, I'mvery proud to claim that I am a
native of Minnesota.
I need to make that clear upfront.
I will tell you as a deafwoman, oftentimes people will
ask me which country I am frombecause of this so-called deaf
(05:26):
accent and I will say I'mactually from the deaf- land and
they will say well, where isthat on the map?
Now I'm picking up on my humor.
But then after they see me grinfrom ear to ear, they realize
I'm just teasing them.
But a little bit about mybackground.
.
(05:46):
I, as I mentioned earlier, Ihail from Minnesota and I'm a
byproduct of a hearing family.
I have three brothers and threesisters, and my parents as well
were hearing.
They did not become aware of mydeafness until the age of four
and a half.
The joke aside has always beenthat my siblings would tell my
parents she's just stubborn,she's a brat, she doesn't want
(06:08):
to listen and so forth.
And I'm sure some of that istrue.
So I will admit to that.
However, when I went topreschool screening, they
informed my parents.
The audiogram showed that I wasprofoundly deaf.
So at that age, of course,coming from a rural area with
little or no services availablefor children with disabilities,
(06:30):
my parents were advised that ifthey put me through military and
I mean military speech therapy,that I would be successful.
And they followed thatdirection, however, not
recognizing that while learninghow to speak is important,
what's even more important ishaving the social skills to be
(06:50):
able to interact and be engaged.
So oftentimes, many of ourfamily events were filled with
darkness and despair andisolation, trying to communicate
and be engaged with the family.
So at the age of 16, I decidedto drop out of high school.
I was frustrated and didn't seeany point in pursuing academics
(07:13):
.
One of the drawbacks of theacademics was they would
announce where you rankacademically and out of the
class of 96, I was always up inthe 89, 90 percentile.
And one gentleman, BruceDrakeley, changed my life, who
was from vocational rehab.
So if anybody from VR islistening to this podcast,
(07:35):
please know the work that you dois so powerful and truly holds
the key to unlocking anindividual with a disability, or
even without a disability, tosuccess.
So they recommended theMinnesota Academy for the Deaf.
And, of course, having grown upin a hearing environment, even
though I was considered oral, Iwent to a deaf school but I did
(07:58):
not know sign, so I alsoexperienced isolation there.
So I didn't know where I fit in.
But long story short, I learnedAmerican Sign Language at the
age of 15.
And after a couple of years atthe academy, where I did very
well, successfully, I returnedhome to mainstream and I
graduated in the top 10 of myclass.
(08:20):
I was number three.
So that story in and of itselfhas always inspired me to be a
leader, an advocate, a mentor,to help guide, especially youth,
next generation youth.
I'm very passionate about andsetting the expectation that,
while smooth seas do not createskillful sailors, we all know
(08:44):
that right.
So, with that being said, I gotso heavily involved in advocacy
and been in that capacity in afor-profit environment, working
almost 20 plus years in thefield of interpreting operations
, whether it's from a humanresources or operations
background, and my last positionbefore joining TDI was chief
marketing officer.
(09:05):
I absolutely love marketing andstorytelling, so now I'm the
TDI for Access as the firstfemale CEO of the organization.
So I'm really honored to be apart of their mission, which our
primary core focus is fosteringaccessibility and inclusion in
the ICT space, which stands forinformation communication and
(09:29):
technology.
So I spend a lot of time at TheHill in collaboration with
other consumer organizations whoplay a vital role in navigating
necessary changes that we needto see in the policy space to
promote that accessibility, andI absolutely love what I do.
I'm just so honored to be ableto work with individuals who
(09:50):
share my passion, such as youtwo, and so that's a little bit
about my background.
Kelvin Crosby (09:55):
I mean that's beautiful, I mean I had no idea
that was your story.
And I mean I've only met youonce and we had a blast.
And as I kind of think aboutyour story, it's very similar,
some of the struggles that I hadas I lost vision and then also
lost was born hard of hard ofhearing, and just that journey
(10:19):
like all right, am I going togive up, but keep on moving
forward.
And I think would you say,AnneMarie, that the battle of
just saying I can keep movingforward, to live beyond this
challenge, is the first step tobe able to change the world.
AnnMarie Killian (10:41):
I believe each and every one of us, as
individuals, have the power tonavigate through our journey.
You know, we hear the clichethat life is 10% of what happens
to you and 90% of how you reactto that.
I will be the first to supportthat cliche.
I believe in that.
Our father, you know, with afamily of seven, we were
(11:03):
economically challenged and as aresult of that, despite the
hardships that we went through,our parents you would never know
that we fit that bracket ofbeing economically challenged.
They were the most incredible,positive people who always
embrace the concept that life iswhat you make it.
Life is what you define it.
And it doesn't mean that it'san easy journey.
(11:31):
So anytime there werechallenges, my father's response
to me was always so what's thesolution, Ann Marie?
And I went, you know,especially as a young child
growing up, you know, fingerpointing he said no, no, no, no.
That's not what I'm asking.
What is the solution to thiscircumstance?
Because we do have choices.
We may not like our choices,but we do have the ability and
freedom to select those choices.
So, I personally, people willoften ask me if you could change
(11:55):
anything, Ann Marie, in yourjourney, what would that be?
And I had to ponder that for amoment.
And I responded with I wouldn'tchange a thing.
It's made me who I am today.
My character and life in and ofitself has given me the tools
that I need to thrive in thisrealm that is predominantly
(12:17):
abled and, quite frankly, I hadalso been asked about having
ever considered getting acochlear implant.
For me personally, no, because Idon't see my deafness as a
disability.
I see it as part of my ethnicidentity, and that's another
concept that's hard for peopleto grasp because we don't
represent the majority.
(12:37):
So therefore we meet theminority bracket and therefore
it must be catastrophicsituation to be in I.
My deference, has created thecharacter that I am and I
wouldn't change that firm thing.
And I'm going to empower otherswho encounter challenges in
life and recognize especially.
We have a white canvas in frontof us and we could pick any
(13:01):
paintbrush in any colors we wantto navigate, but it doesn't
mean it will be easy, and I'mnot an artist by any stretch of
means.
I can't even use a ruler todraw a line, let alone paint a
canvas.
But I'm always bold and willingto take risks and challenges
and learn from those experiences.
Chris Maher (13:19):
I love it, anne-marie, and what you said
resonates so much with me.
Two things.
One is, and having raised twodaughters with disabilities, one
intellectual and developmentaland the other physical, people
with disabilities, whatever thatdisability is, to be adaptive,
you have to learn how to adaptand they have to learn how to
problem solve.
(13:39):
And so, to your point, I'vemany times been meeting someone
for the first time and they askme about my family and I might
be talking about my daughtersand might mention that, oh, my
daughter has intellectualdevelopmental disabilities, and
for many people the firstreaction is, oh, I'm sorry.
And they get this look on theirface.
(14:00):
I'm like, don't be, mydaughter's amazing.
My daughters are bothincredible and we wouldn't
change a thing.
Don't be sorry, they're gifts.
And so that what you weretalking about resonates so much.
when When I met Amory AnnMarieit was the fall, it was October
of 2023.
And I saw you on a panel atM-Enabling and I reached out to
you afterwards on LinkedIn toconnect, cause I was just so
(14:22):
impressed by what you weretalking about and how you're
carrying yourself and I was newto getting Samaritan off the
ground.
And then we connect on LinkedInand then we had a Zoom call.
And you taught me two reallyvaluable lessons on that call.
And you were incredibly kindand generous.
One was, through ourcommunication via email and
(14:47):
LinkedIn, you coordinated havingan interpreter for our Zoom
call that we would have in thecoming week and you really
managed that process.
And I'll be honest, and you andI have talked about this, you
were the first deaf person thatI had had a Zoom call with where
there was an interpreter.
And when we got on the call, Isaid "an I ask you some
(15:10):
questions about you know how wecoordinate the call?
You're like please.
And I'm like what could I havedone better or how could I have
been more helpful?
And I was really nervous aboutasking that.
And your response was first ofall, thank you for asking.
We appreciate that very, verymuch and don't ever be afraid to
ask.
And number two is and I probablyhad made a comment about like,
(15:34):
what could I have done to makethe call better for you, and you
said, well, it's really for us,because this is a call between
the two of us, so any sort ofaccommodation is for us.
It's not for one person, it'sfor both people.
And that was a huge learningfor me and really like an aha
moment, and I have told thatstory to dozens and dozens of
(15:58):
people since.
And then the second part washow you helped me understand,
and you've touched on it before,about your, how you were raised
in a family of people, ofhearing people, but then about
cochlear implants and thatdecision.
But you told me the story aboutyou and your husband and how he
is culturally deaf and you arenot, and that story also
(16:21):
resonated with me so much and itreally speaks.
It's really, I guess, ametaphor for all of disability
because it is so nuanced, right,but would you mind sharing that
story about you and yourhusband?
AnnMarie Killian (16:35):
Sure, absolutely so.
My husband, my amazing husband,Kenny, when I was talking about
him being culturally deaf.
Kenny attended the Deaf Academyat the young age of four and
lived at the academy pretty muchhis entire academic career.
You would see his family on theweekends.
(16:56):
So one of the things that Ieducate people on that's
surprising to many is youactually have a deaf culture?
Yes, we do.
We have a vibrant culture.
Yes, we do.
We have a vibrant culturethat's filled with language,
humor, history, values, norms,even jokes.
(17:16):
I won't tell them on this call,but we do have jokes.
So when I met Kenny, you knowhis first language being ASL,
and that was another componenttoo, especially educating my
family, is that American SignLanguage is often misconstrued
for being English, and it's not.
It's a conceptual and visuallanguage that has its own
(17:40):
linguistic rules.
So when he and I communicatewith one another, we jokingly
say that sometimes we need toget an interpreter for our
conversations.
It's not because we needcounseling therapy, wink, wink,
wink.
Well, you know I'm just being,you know, funny here, but
sometimes we need to take thatextra step to communicate with
(18:01):
one another.
And so, with him beingculturally deaf some of the
behaviors and norms that he'saccustomed to I had to learn,
believe it or not, because it'ssuch things as maybe tapping.
You know I wasn't used to thatevasion of my space with a lot
of tapping.
You know a lot of that was usedto more of the eye contact.
So we've really taken some timeto educate, you know, educate
(18:25):
loved ones and family andmembers, especially when it
comes to accessibility.
Like Chris had mentioned, it'snot uncommon for people to say
do you need us to get a signlanguage interpreter for you?
And my response is often youknow, thank you so much, but no,
but you do need to get aninterpreter for us.
And of course that leaves thema lot and say, well, because we
(18:50):
both need the interpreter forthis communication process.
But I understand why they doask that, because that's the way
that we are conditioned in lifeis to help the others, the less
fortunate, the those with thedisabilities.
So I recognize that's abehavior and conditioning that's
been imposed by our society.
So, as an individual with adisability, it's my
(19:12):
responsibility to educate, tospread awareness, not to
ridicule, not to remind them ofthe ignorance, because if they
don't know, they don't know,they don't have that level of
visibility and exposure.
So I really believe every daythat people wake up with good
intentions, they want to do wellby everyone that they meet.
(19:33):
But I think sometimes we can bevery quick to make a judgment
on someone who asks questions,and that saddens me.
We should never do that.
It's back to what my fathersaid, you want to be a part of
the solution, take the time toeducate and be a part of the
solution.
So, having said that, theculture in and of itself is so
beautiful and so eccentric andI'm very proud to be a part of
(19:56):
that Does that help explainabout the culture?
Chris Maher (19:59):
Yes, thank you very much.
Kelvin Crosby (20:09):
What has always been amazing as I got into the
deaf culture I really should saythe deaf blind culture, because
that's its own set of cultureas well and when I got into that
is learning how to navigatethat world, how to, how to
communicate, how to interact,but how to really start making
change.
How can I make change for thedeaf/blind community?
(20:34):
And as you, AnnMarie, weretalking about advocating for
change and for the deafcommunity, and this is where, as
individuals with disabilities,or I just I love to say
challenges, because they're justchallenges in life that we take
one step at a time.
And one thing I have realizedis education is the key and
(21:02):
telling them the beautiful storyof your journey and telling
them how my story does notnecessarily relate to everybody,
but it's a hint by creatinguniversal access for all.
And, AnneMarie, as you havebeen going into advocacy and
(21:27):
doing this for over 20 years,tell us a little bit about where
you've seen kind of theDeafBlind community, the Deaf
community, the blind community,other disabilities, intellectual
disabilities, all of the things.
It's starting to kind of createthis universal way to access
(21:52):
the world.
AnnMarie Killian (21:53):
You use the key word universal, and that in
and of itself is a real hottopic across all disability
spaces.
Because how do you defineuniversal?
Universal has its own criteria.
When you're working withproduct developers, they have
this criteria that they followfor determining what is
(22:14):
considered universal.
And the interesting thing is,when we're trying to do
universal design, what weoftentimes, I think, overlook is
the fact that it actually canbenefit people in general.
It's not just targeting anddesignated for people with
disabilities.
So a good example of that iscaptions.
Recent study shows that over80% of hearing people rely on
(22:38):
captions.
But yet, we're pushing forpolicy to make it available as a
standard within thebroadcasting, within the
mainstream, in the circulation.
So oftentimes we get thequestion of who does this
benefit?
And I had a recent conversationjust on that topic alone.
It wasn't relevant tocaptionings, but just to be to
(22:59):
stay within the space oftransparency without violating
any details that are notavailable to the public.
But oftentimes when I meet withcongressional leaders, they
will say you know, is this auniversal design that will
benefit you all?
And my response is our goal isnot to just benefit the
community of people withdisabilities.
Our goal is to benefit everyone.
(23:21):
And he said well, how does thisbenefit me?
And I said well, first of all,I'm sure that in your lifetime
you have met someone or knowsomeone or have a family member
or friend who has a friend, atsome point if you look our
statistics one in four people inthe U.
S.
has a disability, right.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I said, if Imay be fully transparent, if you
(23:46):
look at the stats from theWorld Health Organization, it's
a given fact that as we becomemore wise notice I use the word
more wise, not older I like tothink we're getting more wise
than to say we're getting older.
But there is an onset of someform of disability.
It can be cognitive, mobile,sensory, mental health, et
(24:11):
cetera.
And we are probably, and I'msure, Kelvin I love your
thoughts on this, we areprobably the only minority group
that able individuals will joinone day.
Okay, be forward thinking.
And so universal design, Kelvin, is challenging, because I mean
(24:34):
, think about what you're doingwith your prototype.
You have to possibly think ofevery possible scenario on me,
and that's not always everyperson, it's not one size fits
all, but if you engage people atthe table and they represent
diversity and they bring keyconcepts to the table for
development.
(24:55):
That's a great start.
But I think we restrictourselves often in our
innovation process because we'reonly thinking about this
targeted group.
We need to expand that toinclude others with abilities.
Kelvin Crosby (25:07):
I love how you explain that and let me give you
guys an example.
The See Me Cane, because Iwasn't only just thinking about
the blind or the visuallyimpaired community by providing
them a cane, but I was thinkingabout the people that are going
to see the cane but do they havea disability, like if you have
(25:31):
epilepsy and you are prone toseizures.
The light can be an issue andthat's something that I've been
really working on is what lightstrategy that can still provide
defensive walking for visuallyimpaired individuals but as well
protect the people that see theSee Me Cane from hurting
(25:54):
themselves or hurting their eyesor hurting them by having a
seizure or any other challengesthat they might face.
And this is where the wholeuniversal access for all is.
When we think about innovatingfor products and services and
software and different thingslike that, we find that when we
(26:16):
think in universal, we startseeing more opportunities that
can really grow the economicgrowth, the individual growth
and the universal growth.
And that's the part that I loveabout where we're going.
(26:36):
And I always say if you cansolve for deaf/blindness, you
can pretty much solve for theworld.
AnnMarie Killian (26:42):
What are you implying, Kelvin?
Please expand on that.
This is hammering you.
Elaborate What do you mean bythat comment?
Kelvin Crosby (26:50):
If you can solve for deaf/blindness, you can
really solve all thecommunication challenges and all
the navigation challenges ofthe world.
When you look at that, becauseif you think about it, if you
can't see and you can't hear,those are two main senses that
(27:11):
people use on a daily basis.
And so if you create the worldaround us in regards to mental
illness and other intellectualdisabilities and different
things, what I have found in allof my projects that I've ever
worked on, that focus on thedeaf blind side, it really makes
a huge difference when I startfrom the deaf blind spot.
(27:36):
So whether that's caption,whether that's navigation,
whether that's accessing the web, whether that's colors, whether
that's in communication withsomebody in the world or trying
to know what the steps I need totake to go to point A to point
B, just different things likethat.
(27:58):
Like you can start seeing wherethe problem, like you're seeing
the problems and now, if youcan start seeing where the
problem, like you're seeing theproblems and now if you can
solve for that, then you canstart creating this big tree, I
call it, and create a bunch offruits out of that, and so
that's how I see it.
AnnMarie Killian (28:19):
Kelvin, I definitely agree with you on
that and I believe through thatprocess you identify even expand
opportunities.
Well said.
One of the things you know, asyou were talking about being
deaf/blind.
Just full disclosure.
I had a situation a coupleyears ago where I had a retinal
detachment.
So I was blind in my right eye.
And interesting about thathappening is that just a couple
(28:40):
months before that, I was havingconversations with my board
about serving the deaf/blindcommunity, who I believe are
severely underrepresented in myopinion, underserved.
And they truly do not have adeep appreciation for the
(29:02):
challenges that they go through.
And then, two months later, Ibecame blind in one eye and went
through a journey of about ayear and a half.
And let me tell you thatexperience in and of itself gave
me such a deep appreciation forthe challenges that come with
navigating, you know, whetherit's mobility or transportation
(29:25):
and etc.
And so it takes me back to myexperience when I was at the
Deaf Academy.
Across the street was the BlindAcademy and, believe it or not,
we did sports together.
Yes, blind and deaf people doplay sports.
In fact, I was quite lucky,probably wouldn't have to play
professional, but I chose to godancing instead.
(29:46):
But anyway, I said to my friendher name was Marla, and I said,
if you had a choice and ofcourse she's got her headset on,
she's blind and she's justsinging.
And I'm looking at her and Isaid I'm curious, if you had a
choice between being deaf andblind, what would you choose?
(30:07):
And of course her and hervibrancy said oh, Ann Marie, I
would remain blind, I wouldnever give up my music, I would
never give up what I hear.
And how about you?
And I said well, Marla, I couldnever give up my vision, the
(30:27):
beauty.
You know, so we're describingwhat we value and can appreciate
.
There's a lot of beauty in that.
So I had an even deeper.
While I'm still deaf, Icouldn't put on a headset and
listen to music while I wasgoing through this journey.
But I had such a deeperappreciation of the challenges
and I think that we, just asindividuals and as humans,
(30:50):
whether we have a disability ornot, need to just pause and
really reflect on what we shouldbe grateful for and that there
is no barrier, no obstacle, nochallenge that will define us,
and so that's easy to fall tothat.
So I appreciate you sharingyour process and your
(31:11):
perspective on the universaldesign and how we can expand
that to better serve everyoneinvolved, and that's not easy.
Chris Maher (31:21):
Two things that you both touched on.
Lived experience is socritically important in all of
this.
But, as you just so nicelyoutlined, AnneMarie, our lived
experiences are all slightlydifferent or provide a unique
perspective and something yousaid earlier in the work that
you're doing or have been doingfor 20 years, and especially in
(31:43):
TDI.
So it's critically importantthat we get people with those
different lived experiences,thus those different
perspectives, at the tabletogether, because that's the way
that we're going to come upwith the best solutions for
everybody, right, that wholeidea of universality.
The other thing that you'veboth touched on as you've been
(32:04):
speaking over the last severalminutes, is navigation.
And navigation the meaning ofthat in a few different ways
getting from point A to point B,to navigating your daily tasks,
to just navigating the world asa person with a certain type of
disability or not.
This is a little bit of a segue, but, AnnMarie, you and I were
(32:25):
talking the other day.
The work you're doing at TDI isa lot about navigation, and what
I mean by that is you'redealing with policymakers,
regulatory bodies, thegovernment and different
branches of government local,federal, etc.
And your job is to figure outhow to work with all of those
groups, whether they are blue orred, or Republican or
(32:50):
progressive or conservative ormoderate, etc.
Your job is to figure out howto work with all of it.
That's a massive navigationaltask.
Can you speak a little bitabout that process that you have
to do, regardless of whatadministration is in place at
any given time, and then maybetouch on a few of the kind of
maybe important initiatives thatyou're working on today?
AnnMarie Killian (33:12):
Sure, sure.
Well, first and foremost, oneof the common things I hear
about TDI, as far as perceptionthat we bring value in, is our
neutrality Meaning.
We really believe strongly inthe importance of giving
everyone the space to speak, toshare their thoughts and, as we
(33:34):
all know so well and not justbecause of today's
administration and has been anongoing behavior there's always
going to be differences ofopinion, there's going to be
different agendas, differentgoals and et cetera.
So what I've learned in thepolicy sector is first, earning
respect, earning mutual respect.
By earning that mutual respectmeans agreeing to disagree.
(33:57):
Going into a meeting fullhead-on with rage or anger
because something does not existwill not bring you anywhere.
I have found that it's notbecause of TDI's philosophy, but
in collaboration, working withother consumer organizations,
there's power in numbers.
There truly is power in numbers.
(34:24):
To go in individually does notbring the same results as you do
collaboratively.
So we do spend a lot of timenavigating the space with others
.
So we work closely with theAmerican Foundation for the
Blind, American Council for theBlind, Perkins School for the
Blind, Deaf and Quality,National Association for the
Deaf, Communication Services forthe Deaf.
So we work collectively, but wealso reach out beyond that.
We talk with agencies dealingwith older Americans.
(34:51):
Older Americans are impacted bywhat's happening today and as
well as military veterans, andso we're trying to take the
initiative to really getgrounded.
Because, again back to what wewere talking about earlier, the
universal design, the one sizefits all, does not apply, but
what we do know is thatcommunication is a human right,
(35:12):
access is a human right, andthat's what drives our approach
on the policies.
So, for example, we've had alot of policies this year that
were focused on ng-911accessible services for
emergency situations.
The most recent policy that wedid was on the label of that
(35:32):
filing was delete, delete,delete.
And what that meant was is theFCC was inviting our community
and stakeholders to get feedbackif there were any regulations
that could be deleted, and, asyou know, that's a big
initiative this year in theadministration is deregulation,
and so we did.
(35:52):
You know, instead of becomingdefensive, we did, with a
fine-tooth comb, go through allof the regulations that
currently exist, and very few ofthem do we agree should be
deleted, and those that wererecommended to be deleted, are
obsolete, meaning they no longerhave any application.
So we truly believe thatmaintaining relationships with
(36:15):
those policymakers and decisionmakers is so vital to this
process.
We don't get anywhere by openlycriticizing the administration
or any policy maker.
You won't get anywhere withthat.
So if we can create a safeenvironment and space for all to
have dialogues, that's wherewe're seeing our greatest
(36:35):
successes on that.
And sometimes it comes down toyou have to choose your battles
and we haven't had to choose yet.
I've been very proud of what ourcollaboration has done
collectively in pushing forresults.
Right now, the biggest issuethat we are working on is the
CVTA, Communications VideoTechnology Advocacy
(37:03):
Accessibility and that billactually was originally known as
CVAA, which was passed in 2010.
But in a nutshell, CVTA is allabout access across all
mainstreams.
You know it goes fromcaptioning to audio descriptions
even, etc.
But what our challenge today iswe have not been able to secure
bipartisan support.
We have a Democratic supportfrom Markey's office.
(37:26):
Senator Markey has been soinstrumental in this process.
I'm excited to share,It's not firm yet, but we're
seeing traction, believe it ornot, through dialogues with the
Republican parties in eachindividual office, to share our
learnings, and our approach hasbeen we want to make you aware
of what this can do for everyone, not just people with
(37:48):
disabilities.
And so I believe, and I don'twant to jinx this process, but
what we're finding is that theRepublican parties from the
different offices are talkingabout coming together as one and
support as part of thebipartisan support.
So it's all about strategic.
It's understanding who you'reworking with, and a lot of times
(38:09):
, the people that we work withhave someone either within their
family or a loved one that hasa disability, and they're the
ones that truly resonate.
So we try to capture thatnavigation and bringing in the
right people to the discussions,and it's not always easy, but
it's rewarding because, at theend of the day, we do see
progress, and I think that'swhat we need to keep our focus
(38:31):
on.
Is progress, not the finishline.
If we aim for the finish line,my fear is we will not make any
traction.
So if we can make progress,that can help to evolve and
bring us to where we need to be.
Chris Maher (38:44):
Anne-Marie, I think that's a super smart approach
to the work that you and yourorganization are doing.
It's a huge credit to yourleadership and how you're
driving the organization and, asyou just said, usually in in
life, progress is better thanperfection, right?
So we need to keep that in mind.
Kelvin Crosby (39:01):
I I think one of the biggest things working with
bipartisan and really working onthose stories, working on those
unification, because, at theend of the day, our mission is
to create everybody to haveaccess, and so you're gonna have
to have bipartisan support.
AnnMarie Killian (39:22):
One thing that I do believe that is very
important is just reallycreating a safe space that it's
okay to have a difference ofopinion.
And so how do we collectivelycome together and find a
win-win-win for all and it's'snot just win-win but win-win-win
, because it's not just me, it'snot just you, it's others right
(39:43):
.
And that's not an easy task atall and it's definitely not.
But TDI will be the first totell you, humbling, that our
success is not because of TDI.
Our success is because of thestakeholders that we work with.
We work with pro bono firmsthat have been largely
instrumental in our filingefforts.
We could not do this alone.
(40:04):
I mean, one year alone we hadabout a half a million just in
pro bono work that was investedin filing.
So we are busy, but we couldnot do it without some of our
pro bono firms who have been soinstrumental and, of course, the
collaboration with the otherconsumer organizations that have
(40:25):
highly influential stakeholdersinvolved who guide us through
that process.
I mean one, notably Karen PellStrauss, who as a civil rights
attorney she wrote her book, shewas very involved in the ADA.
She's been a tremendous valueto our discussions.
You have Deaf Equality, youknow Zanen and Howard Rosenblum
have also brought a lot of theirperspectives, and then, of
(40:47):
course, the other consumerorganizations.
So I'm learning every single day.
I don't have the answers foreverything and I'll be the first
to tell you if I don't knowsomething I will bluntly say you
know, that's an excellentquestion.
I do not have an answer.
I don't know if I'll have oneby tomorrow, but I will, you
know, do some further researchor further findings on that.
(41:10):
But it is policy.
You either love it or you hateit.
and just, and for me, I just.
It fuels my energy and fuel mypassion, even though there are
times I just think wow, all dayand determine we're going to
(41:32):
navigate through that processand I don't always have answers
for that, but I have a team ofpeople who would work together.
Yeah, so back in 2009, I wentto Capitol Hill and was doing
advocacy work for the deaf/blindcommunity and we were working
on a bill called the COPE bill,and it was a telecommunication
(41:54):
initiative and to give accessfor everybody with
deaf/blindness, deaf andvisually impaired individuals as
well, so that way, everybodywould have access.
And this is where, as AnneMariewas telling her story and
telling about what she's doingtoday, like, it brought back
memories for me, realizing thework that we do to move forward.
(42:20):
It can happen together, andwith that bill Senator Markey
was part of that bill.
In 2009 the TelecommunicationInitiative Act got passed, and
(42:44):
that was one of the biggestsuccess for us for the deaf, the
deaf/blind and the visuallyimpaired community, and this is
where it was the first time fordeaf/blind people to have really
a law to have access totelecommunications.
And so this is why it's soimportant that we continue to
advocate and to continue to keepworking forward on growing and
(43:10):
creating more access for all.
Chris Maher (43:13):
AnnMarie before we let you go, we would be remiss
if we did not let you spend afew minutes to talk about this
amazing event that you areinvolved with this coming July,
around the 35th anniversary ofthe ADA.
So would you spend a fewminutes letting everybody know
about what you're working on?
AnnMarie Killian (43:30):
Absolutely.
Do you have until Christmas?
Now let me just be real brief.
So Wawa bility is an event thatoriginated approximately two
and a half years ago.
It's been a long-standingplanning process.
The visionary behind Wawability is Warren Wawa Snipe and,
(43:51):
just to be clear, he's notaffiliated with the Wawa
convenience store.
He wanted to make sure that wealways share that with everyone,
because oftentimes we do getthe question oh, are you
affiliated with the Wawaconvenience store?
We are not.
So to make a long story short,you know I'm sure you would all
agree that a lot of conferencesthat we attend either tend to be
(44:13):
very topic focused.
So, for example, conference maybe just only on employment,
another conference might be juston technology, but rarely do we
ever see an opportunity tobring in arts, media and
entertainment.
We also rarely ever seemultiple topics come into one
platform.
So for Wawa bility it's ahybrid model.
(44:36):
We will be holding a two-daysummit, from 11 to 4, and the
summit will cover five tracks.
It will be on technology,advocacy and policy, E3, which
represents education, employmentand entrepreneurship.
And then the last two equallyimportant is health and
(45:00):
lifestyle.
And last but not least is arts,media and entertainment.
So we originally had this setup as an in-person conference,
but because of the landscape ofwhat we're seeing today, and the
impact on the economy, weagreed that we would host the
summit virtually so that we canexpand our reach and position
people to be able to joinglobally.
So we will be live streamingthe summit in the heart of the
(45:21):
Anthem, which is located in DCat the Wharf.
Very excited.
We're working closely with theproduction company, Foodog
Productions, and come frommultiple years of broadcasting.
They, along with our sponsorstremendous sponsors are making
this summit possible.
But also the entertainmentFriday night is comedy night and
(45:41):
then Saturday night we're goingto take this opportunity to
celebrate the 35th anniversaryof the ADA.
How that entertainment iscoming to life is that all
performers have disabilities.
So, yes, people withdisabilities are comedians.
Yes, people with disabilitiescan sing, can dance.
We're even bringing in theOmnium Circus, which is a
(46:04):
plethora of differentindividuals with various
disabilities will be a part ofthis landscape.
So we believe that we'reoffering an opportunity to bring
a stage and a platform all inone space.
Incredibly exciting.
You can find the information onour website, www.
wawaability2025.
com.
(46:26):
You will see the opportunity toget tickets for the
entertainment or you couldregister to attend the summit.
We love to invite you all tocome.
It's a celebration.
It's a reminder of who we areand where we're going moving
forward.
Same thing with TDI.
We're very involved in thiseffort, working closely with
Wawa and his team.
We will be hosting the summitaspect of it.
(46:49):
Chris here is one of ourspeakers.
He's going to be moderating asession on Design, Capital,
Impact and that is on futurestartups of individuals with
disabilities.
So we're really excited to justhave a packed schedule of
exciting topics, including ourforefathers of the ADA, Tony
Cruello, Tom Harkin, Steny Hoyerand more.
(47:11):
They will tell you up front,thousands of people were
involved in the passing of theADA and not possible to include
them all, but we will be givinga lot of storytelling.
We'll be involved in thistwo-day event.
So we're excited and we welcomeyou all to join us.
Chris Maher (47:27):
That just sounds absolutely amazing and I can't
wait to be there, not only formy panel, but to stay for the
whole event and the performances.
AnnMarie, before we let you go.
You just shared how people canfind out more about Wawa bility.
What if people want to learnmore about you and TDI for
Access and the work that you'redoing?
(47:47):
How can they find that?
AnnMarie Killian (47:49):
Well, they could go to our website, which
is www.
tdi4access.
org, and it's spelled together.
Oftentimes our name is spelledseparately and it's not TDI
separate from Access, it'sactually all together.
So TDI forA ccess.
org.
You will find information onour website.
(48:11):
We're actually undergoingconstruction.
We're going to have a newfacelift.
I'm really excited about it.
I was hoping to get it up andrunning before Wawability, but
please do.
You can subscribe to ournewsletter.
You will receive communications.
We have a TDI pulse which issent out twice a year to get the
pulse of what's happening inour landscape.
Then, of course, we have theTDI dispatch, which is more of
(48:33):
an FYI alert "Be aware of thisand that's usually distributed
on a monthly basis.
So go to our website at www.
tdiforaccess.
org and you will find additionalinformation on TDI.
Chris Maher (48:45):
Well, Anne-Marie, this has been such a joy and a
pleasure.
Thank you for joining us and wehope to talk to you again very,
very soon.
AnnMarie Killian (48:54):
Thank you so much again.
It was such a pleasure to bewith you both today.
Thank you.
Kelvin Crosby (48:59):
Thank you so much , AnneMarie, for being on the
Investing in Accessibility.
And this wraps up our podcastand, as I always say, go live
beyond your challenges and we'llsee you in two weeks.
(49:24):
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
(49:46):
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
(00:28):
.
Hey, it's good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility, and
I'm so excited about today'sguest and truly this is going to
be an be an experience.
It's gonna be full of laughterand we're gonna stumble over
(00:49):
each other, but I tell you it'sgonna be a fun show.
But before I introduce you toour guest, our amazing guest I
tell you she's awesome, let meintroduce to my co-host, Chris
Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (01:03):
Hey, Kelvin, good to be with you, my friend, how
you doing.
Kelvin Crosby (01:06):
I'm doing great.
I'm so excited about today'sguest and I'm excited to really
really show people that peoplewith deafness can really do a
podcast and live beyond theirchallenges, and I tell you what
this lady doing I'm superexcited to share with everybody.
(01:27):
So kind of tell us, Chris, whois this lady that we're hinting
at and how awesome is this lady?
Chris Maher (01:36):
Celvin.
I couldn't agree more.
I am super excited about thisepisode today because our guest
is an amazing person and,without further ado, let's
introduce Anne-Marie Killian,who is the CEO of TDI for Access
, which is an amazingorganization which we're going
to get into momentarily.
(01:56):
But, Anne-Marie, welcome to theshow.
AnnMarie Killian (01:59):
Thank you so much, Kelvin and Chris.
I'm so honored to be invited tothis podcast.
I've been following you whenyou post on LinkedIn.
I've been enjoying expanding myhorizons and listening in to
some of the shows you haveelevated to the platform so I
want to thank you again for thisinvitation it's really a
pleasure to be here with youboth.
Especially since I had thepleasure meeting you and
(02:27):
witnessing how well you twobehave when you're hanging out.
I thought for sure there'd besome bantering taking place
before we got some conversationsgoing, so I appreciate you
being at your best behavior.
Kelvin Crosby (02:47):
You got me on my toes there, AnnMarie, because
when I met you I was trying tofigure out is this lady deaf or
not, or just I wasn't surebecause I couldn't see you.
And then and then you startedtalking to me and then you said,
Kelvin, speak slower so I canread your lips.
(03:08):
I'm like, oh yes, I'll startsigning.
And of course my signing isgarbage.
I can do a little bit.
AnnMarie Killian (03:18):
Oh, your signing's not garbage.
I'm impressed.
I mean, if you don't use itevery day, you naturally may
experience some loss of memory,but I'm concerned that you don't
use it every day.
You do pretty well and you'relaughing at yourself because you
think I'm just feeding you.
Chris Maher (03:43):
This is going to be an amazing episode.
Before we started recording, wehad about 10 minutes of
fantastic banter going back andforth and also figuring out all
the technology for this, becauseso for our audience, as
everybody knows, Kelvin is deaf/blind, AnnM arie is deaf.
Kelvin, who is the amazingtechnological wizard behind this
(04:07):
whole podcast, has had to setup a few things on the back end
so we can capture everything forourselves, but also so we can
communicate the most effectiveway.
So we've got transcription andcaptioning and Kelvin is using a
couple of different mixers onthe back end so he'll be able to
edit.
It's just awesome and I'm soexcited for this.
(04:30):
As we get into things, AnneMarie, why don't you give people a
little bit of your personalbackground?
And I'd love for you to startoff with your personal
background and connection todisability and specifically the
deaf community.
And once you do that, I'm goingto tell a couple of wonderful
(04:50):
stories about you and how you'vebeen so generous and kind to me
as I've embarked on thisjourney.
But let's start with yourpersonal background, about your
connection to the deaf communityand what it was like growing up
within your family.
AnnMarie Killian (05:03):
Thank you, Chris.
Well, first and foremost, I'mvery proud to claim that I am a
native of Minnesota.
I need to make that clear upfront.
I will tell you as a deafwoman, oftentimes people will
ask me which country I am frombecause of this so-called deaf
(05:26):
accent and I will say I'mactually from the deaf- land and
they will say well, where isthat on the map?
Now I'm picking up on my humor.
But then after they see me grinfrom ear to ear, they realize
I'm just teasing them.
But a little bit about mybackground.
.
(05:46):
I, as I mentioned earlier, Ihail from Minnesota and I'm a
byproduct of a hearing family.
I have three brothers and threesisters, and my parents as well
were hearing.
They did not become aware of mydeafness until the age of four
and a half.
The joke aside has always beenthat my siblings would tell my
parents she's just stubborn,she's a brat, she doesn't want
(06:08):
to listen and so forth.
And I'm sure some of that istrue.
So I will admit to that.
However, when I went topreschool screening, they
informed my parents.
The audiogram showed that I wasprofoundly deaf.
So at that age, of course,coming from a rural area with
little or no services availablefor children with disabilities,
(06:30):
my parents were advised that ifthey put me through military and
I mean military speech therapy,that I would be successful.
And they followed thatdirection, however, not
recognizing that while learninghow to speak is important,
what's even more important ishaving the social skills to be
(06:50):
able to interact and be engaged.
So oftentimes, many of ourfamily events were filled with
darkness and despair andisolation, trying to communicate
and be engaged with the family.
So at the age of 16, I decidedto drop out of high school.
I was frustrated and didn't seeany point in pursuing academics
(07:13):
.
One of the drawbacks of theacademics was they would
announce where you rankacademically and out of the
class of 96, I was always up inthe 89, 90 percentile.
And one gentleman, BruceDrakeley, changed my life, who
was from vocational rehab.
So if anybody from VR islistening to this podcast,
(07:35):
please know the work that you dois so powerful and truly holds
the key to unlocking anindividual with a disability, or
even without a disability, tosuccess.
So they recommended theMinnesota Academy for the Deaf.
And, of course, having grown upin a hearing environment, even
though I was considered oral, Iwent to a deaf school but I did
(07:58):
not know sign, so I alsoexperienced isolation there.
So I didn't know where I fit in.
But long story short, I learnedAmerican Sign Language at the
age of 15.
And after a couple of years atthe academy, where I did very
well, successfully, I returnedhome to mainstream and I
graduated in the top 10 of myclass.
(08:20):
I was number three.
So that story in and of itselfhas always inspired me to be a
leader, an advocate, a mentor,to help guide, especially youth,
next generation youth.
I'm very passionate about andsetting the expectation that,
while smooth seas do not createskillful sailors, we all know
(08:44):
that right.
So, with that being said, I gotso heavily involved in advocacy
and been in that capacity in afor-profit environment, working
almost 20 plus years in thefield of interpreting operations
, whether it's from a humanresources or operations
background, and my last positionbefore joining TDI was chief
marketing officer.
(09:05):
I absolutely love marketing andstorytelling, so now I'm the
TDI for Access as the firstfemale CEO of the organization.
So I'm really honored to be apart of their mission, which our
primary core focus is fosteringaccessibility and inclusion in
the ICT space, which stands forinformation communication and
(09:29):
technology.
So I spend a lot of time at TheHill in collaboration with
other consumer organizations whoplay a vital role in navigating
necessary changes that we needto see in the policy space to
promote that accessibility, andI absolutely love what I do.
I'm just so honored to be ableto work with individuals who
(09:50):
share my passion, such as youtwo, and so that's a little bit
about my background.
Kelvin Crosby (09:55):
I mean that's beautiful, I mean I had no idea
that was your story.
And I mean I've only met youonce and we had a blast.
And as I kind of think aboutyour story, it's very similar,
some of the struggles that I hadas I lost vision and then also
lost was born hard of hard ofhearing, and just that journey
(10:19):
like all right, am I going togive up, but keep on moving
forward.
And I think would you say,AnneMarie, that the battle of
just saying I can keep movingforward, to live beyond this
challenge, is the first step tobe able to change the world.
AnnMarie Killian (10:41):
I believe each and every one of us, as
individuals, have the power tonavigate through our journey.
You know, we hear the clichethat life is 10% of what happens
to you and 90% of how you reactto that.
I will be the first to supportthat cliche.
I believe in that.
Our father, you know, with afamily of seven, we were
(11:03):
economically challenged and as aresult of that, despite the
hardships that we went through,our parents you would never know
that we fit that bracket ofbeing economically challenged.
They were the most incredible,positive people who always
embrace the concept that life iswhat you make it.
Life is what you define it.
And it doesn't mean that it'san easy journey.
(11:31):
So anytime there werechallenges, my father's response
to me was always so what's thesolution, Ann Marie?
And I went, you know,especially as a young child
growing up, you know, fingerpointing he said no, no, no, no.
That's not what I'm asking.
What is the solution to thiscircumstance?
Because we do have choices.
We may not like our choices,but we do have the ability and
freedom to select those choices.
So, I personally, people willoften ask me if you could change
(11:55):
anything, Ann Marie, in yourjourney, what would that be?
And I had to ponder that for amoment.
And I responded with I wouldn'tchange a thing.
It's made me who I am today.
My character and life in and ofitself has given me the tools
that I need to thrive in thisrealm that is predominantly
(12:17):
abled and, quite frankly, I hadalso been asked about having
ever considered getting acochlear implant.
For me personally, no, because Idon't see my deafness as a
disability.
I see it as part of my ethnicidentity, and that's another
concept that's hard for peopleto grasp because we don't
represent the majority.
(12:37):
So therefore we meet theminority bracket and therefore
it must be catastrophicsituation to be in I.
My deference, has created thecharacter that I am and I
wouldn't change that firm thing.
And I'm going to empower otherswho encounter challenges in
life and recognize especially.
We have a white canvas in frontof us and we could pick any
(13:01):
paintbrush in any colors we wantto navigate, but it doesn't
mean it will be easy, and I'mnot an artist by any stretch of
means.
I can't even use a ruler todraw a line, let alone paint a
canvas.
But I'm always bold and willingto take risks and challenges
and learn from those experiences.
Chris Maher (13:19):
I love it, anne-marie, and what you said
resonates so much with me.
Two things.
One is, and having raised twodaughters with disabilities, one
intellectual and developmentaland the other physical, people
with disabilities, whatever thatdisability is, to be adaptive,
you have to learn how to adaptand they have to learn how to
problem solve.
(13:39):
And so, to your point, I'vemany times been meeting someone
for the first time and they askme about my family and I might
be talking about my daughtersand might mention that, oh, my
daughter has intellectualdevelopmental disabilities, and
for many people the firstreaction is, oh, I'm sorry.
And they get this look on theirface.
(14:00):
I'm like, don't be, mydaughter's amazing.
My daughters are bothincredible and we wouldn't
change a thing.
Don't be sorry, they're gifts.
And so that what you weretalking about resonates so much.
when When I met Amory AnnMarieit was the fall, it was October
of 2023.
And I saw you on a panel atM-Enabling and I reached out to
you afterwards on LinkedIn toconnect, cause I was just so
(14:22):
impressed by what you weretalking about and how you're
carrying yourself and I was newto getting Samaritan off the
ground.
And then we connect on LinkedInand then we had a Zoom call.
And you taught me two reallyvaluable lessons on that call.
And you were incredibly kindand generous.
One was, through ourcommunication via email and
(14:47):
LinkedIn, you coordinated havingan interpreter for our Zoom
call that we would have in thecoming week and you really
managed that process.
And I'll be honest, and you andI have talked about this, you
were the first deaf person thatI had had a Zoom call with where
there was an interpreter.
And when we got on the call, Isaid "an I ask you some
(15:10):
questions about you know how wecoordinate the call?
You're like please.
And I'm like what could I havedone better or how could I have
been more helpful?
And I was really nervous aboutasking that.
And your response was first ofall, thank you for asking.
We appreciate that very, verymuch and don't ever be afraid to
ask.
And number two is and I probablyhad made a comment about like,
(15:34):
what could I have done to makethe call better for you, and you
said, well, it's really for us,because this is a call between
the two of us, so any sort ofaccommodation is for us.
It's not for one person, it'sfor both people.
And that was a huge learningfor me and really like an aha
moment, and I have told thatstory to dozens and dozens of
(15:58):
people since.
And then the second part washow you helped me understand,
and you've touched on it before,about your, how you were raised
in a family of people, ofhearing people, but then about
cochlear implants and thatdecision.
But you told me the story aboutyou and your husband and how he
is culturally deaf and you arenot, and that story also
(16:21):
resonated with me so much and itreally speaks.
It's really, I guess, ametaphor for all of disability
because it is so nuanced, right,but would you mind sharing that
story about you and yourhusband?
AnnMarie Killian (16:35):
Sure, absolutely so.
My husband, my amazing husband,Kenny, when I was talking about
him being culturally deaf.
Kenny attended the Deaf Academyat the young age of four and
lived at the academy pretty muchhis entire academic career.
You would see his family on theweekends.
(16:56):
So one of the things that Ieducate people on that's
surprising to many is youactually have a deaf culture?
Yes, we do.
We have a vibrant culture.
Yes, we do.
We have a vibrant culturethat's filled with language,
humor, history, values, norms,even jokes.
(17:16):
I won't tell them on this call,but we do have jokes.
So when I met Kenny, you knowhis first language being ASL,
and that was another componenttoo, especially educating my
family, is that American SignLanguage is often misconstrued
for being English, and it's not.
It's a conceptual and visuallanguage that has its own
(17:40):
linguistic rules.
So when he and I communicatewith one another, we jokingly
say that sometimes we need toget an interpreter for our
conversations.
It's not because we needcounseling therapy, wink, wink,
wink.
Well, you know I'm just being,you know, funny here, but
sometimes we need to take thatextra step to communicate with
(18:01):
one another.
And so, with him beingculturally deaf some of the
behaviors and norms that he'saccustomed to I had to learn,
believe it or not, because it'ssuch things as maybe tapping.
You know I wasn't used to thatevasion of my space with a lot
of tapping.
You know a lot of that was usedto more of the eye contact.
So we've really taken some timeto educate, you know, educate
(18:25):
loved ones and family andmembers, especially when it
comes to accessibility.
Like Chris had mentioned, it'snot uncommon for people to say
do you need us to get a signlanguage interpreter for you?
And my response is often youknow, thank you so much, but no,
but you do need to get aninterpreter for us.
And of course that leaves thema lot and say, well, because we
(18:50):
both need the interpreter forthis communication process.
But I understand why they doask that, because that's the way
that we are conditioned in lifeis to help the others, the less
fortunate, the those with thedisabilities.
So I recognize that's abehavior and conditioning that's
been imposed by our society.
So, as an individual with adisability, it's my
(19:12):
responsibility to educate, tospread awareness, not to
ridicule, not to remind them ofthe ignorance, because if they
don't know, they don't know,they don't have that level of
visibility and exposure.
So I really believe every daythat people wake up with good
intentions, they want to do wellby everyone that they meet.
(19:33):
But I think sometimes we can bevery quick to make a judgment
on someone who asks questions,and that saddens me.
We should never do that.
It's back to what my fathersaid, you want to be a part of
the solution, take the time toeducate and be a part of the
solution.
So, having said that, theculture in and of itself is so
beautiful and so eccentric andI'm very proud to be a part of
(19:56):
that Does that help explainabout the culture?
Chris Maher (19:59):
Yes, thank you very much.
Kelvin Crosby (20:09):
What has always been amazing as I got into the
deaf culture I really should saythe deaf blind culture, because
that's its own set of cultureas well and when I got into that
is learning how to navigatethat world, how to, how to
communicate, how to interact,but how to really start making
change.
How can I make change for thedeaf/blind community?
(20:34):
And as you, AnnMarie, weretalking about advocating for
change and for the deafcommunity, and this is where, as
individuals with disabilities,or I just I love to say
challenges, because they're justchallenges in life that we take
one step at a time.
And one thing I have realizedis education is the key and
(21:02):
telling them the beautiful storyof your journey and telling
them how my story does notnecessarily relate to everybody,
but it's a hint by creatinguniversal access for all.
And, AnneMarie, as you havebeen going into advocacy and
(21:27):
doing this for over 20 years,tell us a little bit about where
you've seen kind of theDeafBlind community, the Deaf
community, the blind community,other disabilities, intellectual
disabilities, all of the things.
It's starting to kind of createthis universal way to access
(21:52):
the world.
AnnMarie Killian (21:53):
You use the key word universal, and that in
and of itself is a real hottopic across all disability
spaces.
Because how do you defineuniversal?
Universal has its own criteria.
When you're working withproduct developers, they have
this criteria that they followfor determining what is
(22:14):
considered universal.
And the interesting thing is,when we're trying to do
universal design, what weoftentimes, I think, overlook is
the fact that it actually canbenefit people in general.
It's not just targeting anddesignated for people with
disabilities.
So a good example of that iscaptions.
Recent study shows that over80% of hearing people rely on
(22:38):
captions.
But yet, we're pushing forpolicy to make it available as a
standard within thebroadcasting, within the
mainstream, in the circulation.
So oftentimes we get thequestion of who does this
benefit?
And I had a recent conversationjust on that topic alone.
It wasn't relevant tocaptionings, but just to be to
(22:59):
stay within the space oftransparency without violating
any details that are notavailable to the public.
But oftentimes when I meet withcongressional leaders, they
will say you know, is this auniversal design that will
benefit you all?
And my response is our goal isnot to just benefit the
community of people withdisabilities.
Our goal is to benefit everyone.
(23:21):
And he said well, how does thisbenefit me?
And I said well, first of all,I'm sure that in your lifetime
you have met someone or knowsomeone or have a family member
or friend who has a friend, atsome point if you look our
statistics one in four people inthe U.
S.
has a disability, right.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I said, if Imay be fully transparent, if you
(23:46):
look at the stats from theWorld Health Organization, it's
a given fact that as we becomemore wise notice I use the word
more wise, not older I like tothink we're getting more wise
than to say we're getting older.
But there is an onset of someform of disability.
It can be cognitive, mobile,sensory, mental health, et
(24:11):
cetera.
And we are probably, and I'msure, Kelvin I love your
thoughts on this, we areprobably the only minority group
that able individuals will joinone day.
Okay, be forward thinking.
And so universal design, Kelvin, is challenging, because I mean
(24:34):
, think about what you're doingwith your prototype.
You have to possibly think ofevery possible scenario on me,
and that's not always everyperson, it's not one size fits
all, but if you engage people atthe table and they represent
diversity and they bring keyconcepts to the table for
development.
(24:55):
That's a great start.
But I think we restrictourselves often in our
innovation process because we'reonly thinking about this
targeted group.
We need to expand that toinclude others with abilities.
Kelvin Crosby (25:07):
I love how you explain that and let me give you
guys an example.
The See Me Cane, because Iwasn't only just thinking about
the blind or the visuallyimpaired community by providing
them a cane, but I was thinkingabout the people that are going
to see the cane but do they havea disability, like if you have
(25:31):
epilepsy and you are prone toseizures.
The light can be an issue andthat's something that I've been
really working on is what lightstrategy that can still provide
defensive walking for visuallyimpaired individuals but as well
protect the people that see theSee Me Cane from hurting
(25:54):
themselves or hurting their eyesor hurting them by having a
seizure or any other challengesthat they might face.
And this is where the wholeuniversal access for all is.
When we think about innovatingfor products and services and
software and different thingslike that, we find that when we
(26:16):
think in universal, we startseeing more opportunities that
can really grow the economicgrowth, the individual growth
and the universal growth.
And that's the part that I loveabout where we're going.
(26:36):
And I always say if you cansolve for deaf/blindness, you
can pretty much solve for theworld.
AnnMarie Killian (26:42):
What are you implying, Kelvin?
Please expand on that.
This is hammering you.
Elaborate What do you mean bythat comment?
Kelvin Crosby (26:50):
If you can solve for deaf/blindness, you can
really solve all thecommunication challenges and all
the navigation challenges ofthe world.
When you look at that, becauseif you think about it, if you
can't see and you can't hear,those are two main senses that
(27:11):
people use on a daily basis.
And so if you create the worldaround us in regards to mental
illness and other intellectualdisabilities and different
things, what I have found in allof my projects that I've ever
worked on, that focus on thedeaf blind side, it really makes
a huge difference when I startfrom the deaf blind spot.
(27:36):
So whether that's caption,whether that's navigation,
whether that's accessing the web, whether that's colors, whether
that's in communication withsomebody in the world or trying
to know what the steps I need totake to go to point A to point
B, just different things likethat.
(27:58):
Like you can start seeing wherethe problem, like you're seeing
the problems and now, if youcan start seeing where the
problem, like you're seeing theproblems and now if you can
solve for that, then you canstart creating this big tree, I
call it, and create a bunch offruits out of that, and so
that's how I see it.
AnnMarie Killian (28:19):
Kelvin, I definitely agree with you on
that and I believe through thatprocess you identify even expand
opportunities.
Well said.
One of the things you know, asyou were talking about being
deaf/blind.
Just full disclosure.
I had a situation a coupleyears ago where I had a retinal
detachment.
So I was blind in my right eye.
And interesting about thathappening is that just a couple
(28:40):
months before that, I was havingconversations with my board
about serving the deaf/blindcommunity, who I believe are
severely underrepresented in myopinion, underserved.
And they truly do not have adeep appreciation for the
(29:02):
challenges that they go through.
And then, two months later, Ibecame blind in one eye and went
through a journey of about ayear and a half.
And let me tell you thatexperience in and of itself gave
me such a deep appreciation forthe challenges that come with
navigating, you know, whetherit's mobility or transportation
(29:25):
and etc.
And so it takes me back to myexperience when I was at the
Deaf Academy.
Across the street was the BlindAcademy and, believe it or not,
we did sports together.
Yes, blind and deaf people doplay sports.
In fact, I was quite lucky,probably wouldn't have to play
professional, but I chose to godancing instead.
(29:46):
But anyway, I said to my friendher name was Marla, and I said,
if you had a choice and ofcourse she's got her headset on,
she's blind and she's justsinging.
And I'm looking at her and Isaid I'm curious, if you had a
choice between being deaf andblind, what would you choose?
(30:07):
And of course her and hervibrancy said oh, Ann Marie, I
would remain blind, I wouldnever give up my music, I would
never give up what I hear.
And how about you?
And I said well, Marla, I couldnever give up my vision, the
(30:27):
beauty.
You know, so we're describingwhat we value and can appreciate
.
There's a lot of beauty in that.
So I had an even deeper.
While I'm still deaf, Icouldn't put on a headset and
listen to music while I wasgoing through this journey.
But I had such a deeperappreciation of the challenges
and I think that we, just asindividuals and as humans,
(30:50):
whether we have a disability ornot, need to just pause and
really reflect on what we shouldbe grateful for and that there
is no barrier, no obstacle, nochallenge that will define us,
and so that's easy to fall tothat.
So I appreciate you sharingyour process and your
(31:11):
perspective on the universaldesign and how we can expand
that to better serve everyoneinvolved, and that's not easy.
Chris Maher (31:21):
Two things that you both touched on.
Lived experience is socritically important in all of
this.
But, as you just so nicelyoutlined, AnneMarie, our lived
experiences are all slightlydifferent or provide a unique
perspective and something yousaid earlier in the work that
you're doing or have been doingfor 20 years, and especially in
(31:43):
TDI.
So it's critically importantthat we get people with those
different lived experiences,thus those different
perspectives, at the tabletogether, because that's the way
that we're going to come upwith the best solutions for
everybody, right, that wholeidea of universality.
The other thing that you'veboth touched on as you've been
(32:04):
speaking over the last severalminutes, is navigation.
And navigation the meaning ofthat in a few different ways
getting from point A to point B,to navigating your daily tasks,
to just navigating the world asa person with a certain type of
disability or not.
This is a little bit of a segue, but, AnnMarie, you and I were
(32:25):
talking the other day.
The work you're doing at TDI isa lot about navigation, and what
I mean by that is you'redealing with policymakers,
regulatory bodies, thegovernment and different
branches of government local,federal, etc.
And your job is to figure outhow to work with all of those
groups, whether they are blue orred, or Republican or
(32:50):
progressive or conservative ormoderate, etc.
Your job is to figure out howto work with all of it.
That's a massive navigationaltask.
Can you speak a little bitabout that process that you have
to do, regardless of whatadministration is in place at
any given time, and then maybetouch on a few of the kind of
maybe important initiatives thatyou're working on today?
AnnMarie Killian (33:12):
Sure, sure.
Well, first and foremost, oneof the common things I hear
about TDI, as far as perceptionthat we bring value in, is our
neutrality Meaning.
We really believe strongly inthe importance of giving
everyone the space to speak, toshare their thoughts and, as we
(33:34):
all know so well and not justbecause of today's
administration and has been anongoing behavior there's always
going to be differences ofopinion, there's going to be
different agendas, differentgoals and et cetera.
So what I've learned in thepolicy sector is first, earning
respect, earning mutual respect.
By earning that mutual respectmeans agreeing to disagree.
(33:57):
Going into a meeting fullhead-on with rage or anger
because something does not existwill not bring you anywhere.
I have found that it's notbecause of TDI's philosophy, but
in collaboration, working withother consumer organizations,
there's power in numbers.
There truly is power in numbers.
(34:24):
To go in individually does notbring the same results as you do
collaboratively.
So we do spend a lot of timenavigating the space with others
.
So we work closely with theAmerican Foundation for the
Blind, American Council for theBlind, Perkins School for the
Blind, Deaf and Quality,National Association for the
Deaf, Communication Services forthe Deaf.
So we work collectively, but wealso reach out beyond that.
We talk with agencies dealingwith older Americans.
(34:51):
Older Americans are impacted bywhat's happening today and as
well as military veterans, andso we're trying to take the
initiative to really getgrounded.
Because, again back to what wewere talking about earlier, the
universal design, the one sizefits all, does not apply, but
what we do know is thatcommunication is a human right,
(35:12):
access is a human right, andthat's what drives our approach
on the policies.
So, for example, we've had alot of policies this year that
were focused on ng-911accessible services for
emergency situations.
The most recent policy that wedid was on the label of that
(35:32):
filing was delete, delete,delete.
And what that meant was is theFCC was inviting our community
and stakeholders to get feedbackif there were any regulations
that could be deleted, and, asyou know, that's a big
initiative this year in theadministration is deregulation,
and so we did.
(35:52):
You know, instead of becomingdefensive, we did, with a
fine-tooth comb, go through allof the regulations that
currently exist, and very few ofthem do we agree should be
deleted, and those that wererecommended to be deleted, are
obsolete, meaning they no longerhave any application.
So we truly believe thatmaintaining relationships with
(36:15):
those policymakers and decisionmakers is so vital to this
process.
We don't get anywhere by openlycriticizing the administration
or any policy maker.
You won't get anywhere withthat.
So if we can create a safeenvironment and space for all to
have dialogues, that's wherewe're seeing our greatest
(36:35):
successes on that.
And sometimes it comes down toyou have to choose your battles
and we haven't had to choose yet.
I've been very proud of what ourcollaboration has done
collectively in pushing forresults.
Right now, the biggest issuethat we are working on is the
CVTA, Communications VideoTechnology Advocacy
(37:03):
Accessibility and that billactually was originally known as
CVAA, which was passed in 2010.
But in a nutshell, CVTA is allabout access across all
mainstreams.
You know it goes fromcaptioning to audio descriptions
even, etc.
But what our challenge today iswe have not been able to secure
bipartisan support.
We have a Democratic supportfrom Markey's office.
(37:26):
Senator Markey has been soinstrumental in this process.
I'm excited to share,It's not firm yet, but we're
seeing traction, believe it ornot, through dialogues with the
Republican parties in eachindividual office, to share our
learnings, and our approach hasbeen we want to make you aware
of what this can do for everyone, not just people with
(37:48):
disabilities.
And so I believe, and I don'twant to jinx this process, but
what we're finding is that theRepublican parties from the
different offices are talkingabout coming together as one and
support as part of thebipartisan support.
So it's all about strategic.
It's understanding who you'reworking with, and a lot of times
(38:09):
, the people that we work withhave someone either within their
family or a loved one that hasa disability, and they're the
ones that truly resonate.
So we try to capture thatnavigation and bringing in the
right people to the discussions,and it's not always easy, but
it's rewarding because, at theend of the day, we do see
progress, and I think that'swhat we need to keep our focus
(38:31):
on.
Is progress, not the finishline.
If we aim for the finish line,my fear is we will not make any
traction.
So if we can make progress,that can help to evolve and
bring us to where we need to be.
Chris Maher (38:44):
Anne-Marie, I think that's a super smart approach
to the work that you and yourorganization are doing.
It's a huge credit to yourleadership and how you're
driving the organization and, asyou just said, usually in in
life, progress is better thanperfection, right?
So we need to keep that in mind.
Kelvin Crosby (39:01):
I I think one of the biggest things working with
bipartisan and really working onthose stories, working on those
unification, because, at theend of the day, our mission is
to create everybody to haveaccess, and so you're gonna have
to have bipartisan support.
AnnMarie Killian (39:22):
One thing that I do believe that is very
important is just reallycreating a safe space that it's
okay to have a difference ofopinion.
And so how do we collectivelycome together and find a
win-win-win for all and it's'snot just win-win but win-win-win
, because it's not just me, it'snot just you, it's others right
(39:43):
.
And that's not an easy task atall and it's definitely not.
But TDI will be the first totell you, humbling, that our
success is not because of TDI.
Our success is because of thestakeholders that we work with.
We work with pro bono firmsthat have been largely
instrumental in our filingefforts.
We could not do this alone.
(40:04):
I mean, one year alone we hadabout a half a million just in
pro bono work that was investedin filing.
So we are busy, but we couldnot do it without some of our
pro bono firms who have been soinstrumental and, of course, the
collaboration with the otherconsumer organizations that have
(40:25):
highly influential stakeholdersinvolved who guide us through
that process.
I mean one, notably Karen PellStrauss, who as a civil rights
attorney she wrote her book, shewas very involved in the ADA.
She's been a tremendous valueto our discussions.
You have Deaf Equality, youknow Zanen and Howard Rosenblum
have also brought a lot of theirperspectives, and then, of
(40:47):
course, the other consumerorganizations.
So I'm learning every single day.
I don't have the answers foreverything and I'll be the first
to tell you if I don't knowsomething I will bluntly say you
know, that's an excellentquestion.
I do not have an answer.
I don't know if I'll have oneby tomorrow, but I will, you
know, do some further researchor further findings on that.
(41:10):
But it is policy.
You either love it or you hateit.
and just, and for me, I just.
It fuels my energy and fuel mypassion, even though there are
times I just think wow, all dayand determine we're going to
(41:32):
navigate through that processand I don't always have answers
for that, but I have a team ofpeople who would work together.
Yeah, so back in 2009, I wentto Capitol Hill and was doing
advocacy work for the deaf/blindcommunity and we were working
on a bill called the COPE bill,and it was a telecommunication
(41:54):
initiative and to give accessfor everybody with
deaf/blindness, deaf andvisually impaired individuals as
well, so that way, everybodywould have access.
And this is where, as AnneMariewas telling her story and
telling about what she's doingtoday, like, it brought back
memories for me, realizing thework that we do to move forward.
(42:20):
It can happen together, andwith that bill Senator Markey
was part of that bill.
In 2009 the TelecommunicationInitiative Act got passed, and
(42:44):
that was one of the biggestsuccess for us for the deaf, the
deaf/blind and the visuallyimpaired community, and this is
where it was the first time fordeaf/blind people to have really
a law to have access totelecommunications.
And so this is why it's soimportant that we continue to
advocate and to continue to keepworking forward on growing and
(43:10):
creating more access for all.
Chris Maher (43:13):
AnnMarie before we let you go, we would be remiss
if we did not let you spend afew minutes to talk about this
amazing event that you areinvolved with this coming July,
around the 35th anniversary ofthe ADA.
So would you spend a fewminutes letting everybody know
about what you're working on?
AnnMarie Killian (43:30):
Absolutely.
Do you have until Christmas?
Now let me just be real brief.
So Wawa bility is an event thatoriginated approximately two
and a half years ago.
It's been a long-standingplanning process.
The visionary behind Wawability is Warren Wawa Snipe and,
(43:51):
just to be clear, he's notaffiliated with the Wawa
convenience store.
He wanted to make sure that wealways share that with everyone,
because oftentimes we do getthe question oh, are you
affiliated with the Wawaconvenience store?
We are not.
So to make a long story short,you know I'm sure you would all
agree that a lot of conferencesthat we attend either tend to be
(44:13):
very topic focused.
So, for example, conference maybe just only on employment,
another conference might be juston technology, but rarely do we
ever see an opportunity tobring in arts, media and
entertainment.
We also rarely ever seemultiple topics come into one
platform.
So for Wawa bility it's ahybrid model.
(44:36):
We will be holding a two-daysummit, from 11 to 4, and the
summit will cover five tracks.
It will be on technology,advocacy and policy, E3, which
represents education, employmentand entrepreneurship.
And then the last two equallyimportant is health and
(45:00):
lifestyle.
And last but not least is arts,media and entertainment.
So we originally had this setup as an in-person conference,
but because of the landscape ofwhat we're seeing today, and the
impact on the economy, weagreed that we would host the
summit virtually so that we canexpand our reach and position
people to be able to joinglobally.
So we will be live streamingthe summit in the heart of the
(45:21):
Anthem, which is located in DCat the Wharf.
Very excited.
We're working closely with theproduction company, Foodog
Productions, and come frommultiple years of broadcasting.
They, along with our sponsorstremendous sponsors are making
this summit possible.
But also the entertainmentFriday night is comedy night and
(45:41):
then Saturday night we're goingto take this opportunity to
celebrate the 35th anniversaryof the ADA.
How that entertainment iscoming to life is that all
performers have disabilities.
So, yes, people withdisabilities are comedians.
Yes, people with disabilitiescan sing, can dance.
We're even bringing in theOmnium Circus, which is a
(46:04):
plethora of differentindividuals with various
disabilities will be a part ofthis landscape.
So we believe that we'reoffering an opportunity to bring
a stage and a platform all inone space.
Incredibly exciting.
You can find the information onour website, www.
wawaability2025.
com.
(46:26):
You will see the opportunity toget tickets for the
entertainment or you couldregister to attend the summit.
We love to invite you all tocome.
It's a celebration.
It's a reminder of who we areand where we're going moving
forward.
Same thing with TDI.
We're very involved in thiseffort, working closely with
Wawa and his team.
We will be hosting the summitaspect of it.
(46:49):
Chris here is one of ourspeakers.
He's going to be moderating asession on Design, Capital,
Impact and that is on futurestartups of individuals with
disabilities.
So we're really excited to justhave a packed schedule of
exciting topics, including ourforefathers of the ADA, Tony
Cruello, Tom Harkin, Steny Hoyerand more.
(47:11):
They will tell you up front,thousands of people were
involved in the passing of theADA and not possible to include
them all, but we will be givinga lot of storytelling.
We'll be involved in thistwo-day event.
So we're excited and we welcomeyou all to join us.
Chris Maher (47:27):
That just sounds absolutely amazing and I can't
wait to be there, not only formy panel, but to stay for the
whole event and the performances.
AnnMarie, before we let you go.
You just shared how people canfind out more about Wawa bility.
What if people want to learnmore about you and TDI for
Access and the work that you'redoing?
(47:47):
How can they find that?
AnnMarie Killian (47:49):
Well, they could go to our website, which
is www.
tdi4access.
org, and it's spelled together.
Oftentimes our name is spelledseparately and it's not TDI
separate from Access, it'sactually all together.
So TDI forA ccess.
org.
You will find information onour website.
(48:11):
We're actually undergoingconstruction.
We're going to have a newfacelift.
I'm really excited about it.
I was hoping to get it up andrunning before Wawability, but
please do.
You can subscribe to ournewsletter.
You will receive communications.
We have a TDI pulse which issent out twice a year to get the
pulse of what's happening inour landscape.
Then, of course, we have theTDI dispatch, which is more of
(48:33):
an FYI alert "Be aware of thisand that's usually distributed
on a monthly basis.
So go to our website at www.
tdiforaccess.
org and you will find additionalinformation on TDI.
Chris Maher (48:45):
Well, Anne-Marie, this has been such a joy and a
pleasure.
Thank you for joining us and wehope to talk to you again very,
very soon.
AnnMarie Killian (48:54):
Thank you so much again.
It was such a pleasure to bewith you both today.
Thank you.
Kelvin Crosby (48:59):
Thank you so much , AnneMarie, for being on the
Investing in Accessibility.
And this wraps up our podcastand, as I always say, go live
beyond your challenges and we'llsee you in two weeks.
(49:24):
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email Chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
(49:46):
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all by Investing inAccessibility.
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