RALLY Innovation 2025: Accessible Innovation Panel

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility,
a Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible
world.
Hey, hey, hey, so good to seeyou even though I can't see you,

(00:31):
it's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood, and I'm so
excited that you're here.
At investing in accessibility,I'm your host, Kelvin Crosby,
and here's my co-host, ChrisMaher.
How you doing, man?

Chris Maher (00:42):
I'm good, Kelvin.
How are you, my friend?
It's good to uh see you and tobe with you as always.

Yes.
We're starting to get into theholiday season, man.
Isn't it crazy we're alreadyhere?

It is.
It's crazy how quickly that'sgone, but I'm looking forward to
it getting the family together.
Uh yeah, it should be hopefullya wonderful holiday season
coming up.

What is one tradition you guys do during
Thanksgiving?

Thanksgiving.
It's probably similar to whateveryone does, but we always go
around the table and say whatwe're thankful for.
And Kelvin, this year I'mthankful that you came into my
life about a year ago and we'vebeen on this amazing journey
together.

We sure have it truly has been a fascinating journey.
Who ever thought we would make afriendship.

Well, I knew in that first
call when you and I got introducedthat you were something special and that you were a kindred spirit and we were going to continue to get to know each other and now it's turned into this wonderful friendship and honestly this whole podcast was your idea and I am so happy that you gave me the nudge to do it. Cause I am having a blast with you.
Well it's truly been a fun podcast. And I am excited as we go into the holiday season. There might be some disruption to the end of the year we'll have to see, we haven't really fleshed out all of the holiday stuff, but we are going to dive into a conference you went to recently.
That's right. So back in September I was invited to participate in a panel at a conference in Indianapolis. What was so cool about this was it wasn't a disability-focused conference but a general market innovation conference. Really big, thousands of attendees, the first morning keynote speaker was Kevin O'Leary, Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank. The folks that run this conference, it was really, in my mind, a sign of leadership to include a session on Accessibility Innovation and the startup ecosystem. And a friend of the podcast, Jennison Asuncion, was the moderator and he did an amazing job as always. Super excited to share this with our listeners.

(03:01):
So this is gonna be about a45-minute panel session from the
RALLY Innovation Conference inIndianapolis, Indiana, back in
September.

Kelvin Cros (03:12):
Awesome. Well, here we go.

Jennison Asuncion (03:14):
Well good morning, everyone.
Um thank you for joining us.
Well, that's loud.
Okay, there we go.
Um before I begin, I want togive a special shout out to uh
the leadership of theconference, particularly Erica
and Troy, for uh thinking whatwe have to talk about was

(03:35):
compelling and interesting uhsubject matter for uh the
audience of this conference.
So thank you very much.
Uh we'll begin uh with some uhquick introductions.
We'll go down the line herewith some introductions uh that
will include something that isnot on these fine folks LinkedIn
profiles.
So why don't we start withMolly?

Molly Lazarus (03:58):
Uh my name is Molly Lazarus.
I'm the director of the MarkRemarkable US Accelerator, and
something that's not on myLinkedIn is I guess I had a baby
10 months ago.

Nice.
That's a good one.
Uh hi, my name is Chris Maher.
I'm the founder and generalpartner of Samaritan Partners.
We're a social impact venturecapital fund uh that invests in
the disability sector.
Um I guess something that's noton my LinkedIn.
I am a total girl dad.
I've got two daughters, um andmy dog is even a girl, and so

(04:30):
surrounded by women but lovingevery minute of it.

Kate Kalcevich (04:33):
Hi everyone, I'm Kate Kalevich.
I'm head of accessibilityinnovation at a company called
Fable, uh, which is built onthis community of people with
disabilities and connecting themto um enterprises.
And the thing that you won'tfind on my LinkedIn profile is
that I'm a huge biology nerd.
So if anyone wants to talkabout the immune system or how

(04:54):
cells function, I'd love to.

Michael Bervell (04:58):
Um hey, I'm Michael Bervell.
I'm the co-founder and CEO ofTest Party.
We use AI to rewrite the sourcecode of websites and mobile
apps to make them moreaccessible.
Um it's funny, I talked toMolly yesterday, and my first
question was, how waschildbirth?
To which she responded, great.

Well, I said great, but pregnancy, that's
nine months long.

Exactly.
We might want to change thepanel discussion to be about
pregnancy, that's nine monthslong.

Well, let me yeah, let me uh return uh
control of this panel here, anduh I'll I'll end by introducing
myself.
So I'm Jennison Asuncion in myday job I am head of
accessibility engineeringevangelism at LinkedIn, and I'm
also co-founder of the GlobalAccessibility Awareness Day
Foundation.

(05:49):
Uh, something that is not on myLinkedIn profile is that I am a
huge, huge fan of jazz andstand-up comedy, which are two
very different things, but thoseare two really important things
in my life that keep me uh thatkeep me balanced.
Um before we get started, Iwanted to set some context, um,
just in case our people in thisaudience who this will be a

(06:12):
brand new subject area.
So when we're referring topeople with disabilities or
impairments, first of all, we'retalking about over 1.3 billion
people around the globe uh whohave disabilities or
impairments.
Um, these include things thatyou could see, so wheelchair

(06:32):
users or folks like myself whoare completely blind, and also
things that you can't see,non-visible or non-apparent
disabilities, such as a chronichealth condition or uh learning
disability.
And and that number is aconservative number, and it's
set to grow and is growing dueto uh people all of us getting

(06:54):
older, uh, as well as theincrease in chronic health
conditions and such.
And also um countries that arestarting to embrace and
recognize more disabilities orimpairments.
Uh, that that is still anevolving area, depending on
cultural norms and such.
Um another definition I'd liketo give is around accessibility.

(07:19):
So when you ask people, there'sthousands of different
definitions, but the one I'llsettle on here is accessibility
are the specifications, thetools, and the best practices,
essentially the art and sciencethat make it possible for
digital spaces to be usedindependently by people with

(07:41):
disabilities.
And when I talk about digitalspaces, I'm talking about
everything from web and mobileapps to kiosks, gaming, etc.
etc.
And then finally, uh when wetalk about assistive technology
or disability tech, uh we'rereferring to all manner of
low-tech and high-tech solutionsthat bring independence in all

(08:06):
manner of uh life activities forpeople with disabilities.
So again, those that those arejust things as we go through.
If again, if you're new, uhthat hopefully will ground you
in in what we're talking about.
But let's get started.
Um we got four interestingfolks here.
We're gonna talk first of allto two individuals who are

(08:27):
deeply involved in the uhassistive or disability tech
ecosystem, and then we'll focuson the accessibility aspect of
the industry.
So, hello Molly.

Hello.
Um talk, can you talk to usabout the Remarkable uh
accelerator and uh how it'spositioned within the assistive
or disability tech space?
Yeah, I think Jennison, you did a really great
job kind of laying out thespace.
So I run the RemarkableAccelerator here in the US.
We're one of the longestrunning disability-focused

(09:05):
startup accelerators in theworld.
We started in Sydney um over 10years ago, and so we opened up
our US arm uh in the last fiveyears.
We invest in companies that arebuilding products for people
with disabilities.
And as Jennison mentioned, youknow, that can sound like a
niche area, but actually, if youlook at the numbers, it's a

(09:26):
significantly large portion ofthe population.
Like people with disabilitiesare a market as large as China,
and so like doesn't everybodywant to go after a market as
large as China?
Um, so we tend to invest incompanies that are building for
people with disabilities, butthat can mean a range of things.
And so there's the kind ofassistive technology, and

(09:47):
Jennison, I always think back toa panel we were on like three
years ago, where I said if youhave universal design, like you
design for everyone, curb cuts,things like that.
Do you think existivetechnology doesn't need to
exist?
And you said, no.
And I think that that's right,right?
There will always be specifictechnologies that need to exist

(10:08):
for a specific condition, andwe're able to support those.
But then there are other typesof technology that are kind of
what I call like cross-the-chasmtechnologies.
So they start off in thedisability community because the
disability community is one ofthe best spaces for people who
need a technology.
Like if you look at like themeta glasses and the different

(10:31):
things that are out there thatthey're trying to make the
general population like, andyou're kind of like, oh, that's
kind of weird.
You kind of need to look at apopulation that has a headache
and needs to take Advil.
And so there are a lot oftechnologies we work with that
actually will probably maketheir way into general consumer

(10:51):
technologies, but they startbuilding for disability because
that is where it has the largestproblem.
Um so we kind of look at thosetwo areas through our
accelerator, but there are manypeople on this panel who
continue to tell you thatactually the market is so large
that everybody should bethinking about building for

(11:13):
disability.
Um that's not necessarily wherewe focus, but thankfully there
are other people here who do.

Uh before I get to Chris, I should also
mention that uh disability is acontinuum.
So you've got uh permanentpeople with permanent
disabilities, like mine, I'mcompletely blind, but then you
also have the full range ofpeople uh who have a temporary
disability.
You break your arm.
Um or situational disability.
You're in a loud room, butthank goodness you have captions

(11:43):
so that you can uh still uhknow what people are saying on
those TVs and bars, or if you'retaking a training course uh at
your desk and there's a lot ofpeople talking.
So just forgot to mention thatin the beginning, but uh there
you go.

And Jennison, I just that captions point, I
think, is exactly the point,right?
Captions started as anaccessibility need, and now
every Gen Z person only watchesTikTok with captions.
Like they can't engage with themedium otherwise.
And so it's just uh it's a goodexample of how that helps
everyone.

And and another one is I mean, when you
think about uh the ability to uhmake a font larger, you know,
people will just do it becauseit's more comfortable.
They don't necessarily thinkthat they might have a
quote-unquote disability, it'sjust easier uh for someone to
enlarge the font as they needit.
Chris, uh from a venturecapital perspective, what makes

(12:41):
a disability-focused startupsomething that's uh that's
attractive to an investor?

So I guess taking a step back and looking at just
the size of the market, and I'mgonna kind of summarize some of
the statistics that you twoalready talked about.
It is a massive market, right?
And so the choice to focus oninvesting in the disability
sector was partly, I'm anoperator.
I launched the fund two yearsago, but prior to that I spent
25 years as an operator.

(13:07):
And in parallel to that, mywife and I have raised two
wonderful daughters, both ofwhom have disabilities.
So I've got the livedexperience of raising two
children with disability, andthe market is massive.
And so just to kind of uhsummarize some of the statistics
that bring that to life,globally it's the largest
minority population on theplanet, the disability
community, plus or minus 1.5billion people.

(13:30):
That will by 2050 will be overthree billion people.
One in six people globally hasa disability, one in four adults
in the U.S.
Um collectively, the disabilitycommunity, along with their
family and friends who supportthem, control $13 trillion.
Um, and the assistive tech anddisability market is predicted

(13:54):
or projected to be $50 plusbillion dollars by 2035.
So like it is a massiveopportunity for investment.
Um and so that a lot of that iswhy I chose to focus the fund
on that.
In terms of what makes a goodinvestment opportunity, um we
look through certain lenses, um,and we are an impact-driven VC

(14:16):
fund, and so we're not going toinvest in companies that have
the potential for a greatfinancial return, but don't have
potential for a great socialreturn, so we might be a little
bit different than a traditionalventure fund.
Um but for us we look at itthrough three lenses.
Um, and it starts off withwhat's the problem they're
solving.
One of the wonderful thingsabout entrepreneurs in the

(14:38):
disability sector is thattypically they have a very
personal connection to theproblems they are solving.
Either they themselves orsomeone close to them have the
lived experience.
So they're they're kind ofstarting off with product market
fit.
Now, whether that's ventureinvestable or not is kind of up
to you know uh investors likemyself to figure it out.
But we look at the problemthey're solving to start and

(14:58):
what their opportunity is to dothat at scale and in a
sustainable way.
That's the first thing we lookat.
If we can check that box, thenwe look at actually the founders
and the team behind thebusiness.
Because at that early stage ofentrepreneurship, that is a
critical ingredient to itsfuture success.
And that's not just in thedisability um uh sector.
I think that isentrepreneurship in general,
because I've been in that role.

(15:20):
And then after if we can checkthat box, then we really dig
into the commercial opportunity.
Um do they have product marketfit?
What's their go-to market?
Is it B2B, B2B to C, is itrecurring revenue, et cetera?
Um, and then what's their theirpotential to do that at scale?
There's a whole otherconversation around the business
models that we invest in, whichlargely comes from my

(15:40):
background of being anentrepreneur, but we'll hold
that off for another question.

Uh question to for both uh you, Chris, and
for Molly.
Maybe we'll start with Molly onthis one.
What are some of the commonareas that you found that you
find founders in this spacestruggle with?
And what is it that helps yousupport and understand what can
make them uh successful?

Yeah, so I think it's there are the standard
things that are fairly typicalof entrepreneurs that we're
seeing, and I can get to those,but I think every industry
requires you to be a goodmessenger of the work that you
do.
And I think traditionallydisability has been lumped in

(16:26):
with charity.
And I think that that's areally problematic narrative
because it it misses theassumption that actually this is
a huge market.
And so most of the companies wework with, you know, Chris will
be potentially early capital inthem.
We invest capital, but most ofthem actually need to get
capital from other industries,like whether it's health tech or

(16:48):
hardware-focused startups.
And I think that it's it'sreally kind of a building a
disability company is almostlike forcing yourself to be like
an evangelical preacher orsomething.
Like you have to like runaround and be like, believe me,
like I'll show you if you justhelp me.
And it's interesting because Ilooked through all the companies

(17:10):
that are in the pitch finalsfor this the for the rally
conference, and every single oneof them has a potential
disability lens.
And some actually the messagingwould be so much more powerful
if they did.
There's a hard tech companythat drops in emergency services
or emergency goods into placesthat are affected by climate.

(17:33):
And like people withdisabilities are four times more
likely to die in a climatedisaster.
Like, that is a huge, hugething that could make a massive
difference and have hugeeconomic impact for communities
that can actually be able toserve folks.
And so I think that sometimesit can feel lonely to be a

(17:56):
founder in this space becauseyou're like, I'm trying to tell
you something that is so true.
Like, you know, baby boomersare aging, they spend $550
million a year, billion dollarsa year, like billion?
B.
Billion.
Um a lot of them won't callthemselves disabled, but they
are all looking for assistivetechnologies because it gets

(18:17):
harder to get around and youdon't want to stay at home.
And so I think that themessaging is something that we
work on with them a lot, and Iam so glad that we are here
because it allows us to tell youall the messaging, and
hopefully they don't have to bethe you know canary in the coal
mine all the time being likethis is important.

Yeah, I agree with all I think storytelling is
critically important, and Ithink part of that storytelling
to move it away from oh, this isserving people with
disabilities, why is this not anonprofit?
You have to talk about at theend of the day, you gotta talk
about how you're gonna makemoney and how you're gonna
deliver value to your customers,like how you're gonna improve
their bottom line.
Um so really moving from doingsomething that's feel good or

(19:01):
checking a compliance box todriving value.
Um and then I think as theystart to scale, listen, the
entrepreneurial journey isreally hard.
And I think for a first-timesolo founder uh CEO, it can be a
very lonely journey.
It's a lot of ups and downs.
Um you just you need to managethose emotions of that journey,
which can be very challenging.

(19:22):
A lot of times I like it whenthere's co-founders so they can
work with each other and helpeach other.
And then as you start to scale,um that is a whole other animal
to deal with in terms ofbuilding out your uh human
capital, your infrastructure,your processes.
Many times that founder CEObecomes the bottleneck as you

(19:42):
start to scale.
Um and so helping them through,they all need operational
assistance, but I think um manystartups run into trouble when
they start to scale and and uhjust aren't able to figure that
out.

I would just echo that.
I think one of the things thatwe do in our accelerator that's
different is um you getexecutive coaching throughout
the entire thing, but you do itas a co-founding team.
And honestly, it is it's Ithink every startup needs to do
it because people, you have likethree things as a founder.
You have people, you have yourtime, you have your equity.

(20:17):
And you're kind of playing withthose all the time to make them
work.
And so providing thatresilience and that support so
that when it gets hard, whenentrepreneurship gets hard, you
have a really strong way to fallback and have meaningful
decision conversations with yourteam, I think is like an

(20:38):
immeasurable thing that everyentrepreneur needs to invest in.

Anything else on your end, Chris?

No, I think that's it.

All right.
Well, thank you both.
Um we're gonna now uh go overand talk a little bit about
accessibility and to two folkswho are working uh with all
manner of companies uh who havemade it an intentional
requirement uh to make uhaccessibility uh part of their

(21:11):
design and development ofdigital spaces.
So good morning, Kate. Maybe ifyou could start by telling us
how does uh Fable uh supportcompanies who are who have made
accessibility a priority in thedesign and development of their
digital spaces?

Yeah, good morning.
And and before I get into that,I'd like to say I am one of
those people with an invisibledisability.
I wear hearing aids and both ofmy ears they are really tiny.
Um, and I rely on captions andlip reading when there are no
captions.
So you'll you'll find me likereally watching people's faces
because I'm just trying tofigure out what they're saying.
Um so Fable is a company that'sfounded on this very innovative

(21:52):
principle that if you workdirectly with people with
disabilities in your productdevelopment lifecycle, you build
products that are more robust,they're compliant with
accessibility laws, and you justcapture this market share that
you wouldn't capture otherwiseby not building accessible
products.
So it's very different than alot of the companies that focus

(22:14):
more on the technology side ofaccessibility.
We're really focused on thathuman side, but using technology
to scale access to the humanside of things.
So companies work with us ifthey're interested in, say, you
know, having an inclusive brand.
So they want to be known as anaccessible, uh, a supporter of
accessibility and as a companythat's welcoming of customers

(22:37):
with disabilities.
There are also companies whoare more interested in risk
mitigation.
So in the US, I think we're ontrack for maybe 5,000
accessibility lawsuits by theend of this year based on the
pacing that it's going.
So that's a really big concernfor some companies.
And so we help them withunderstanding where that risk

(22:58):
comes from and what you can doto avoid that risk.
Um, and then we also work withcompanies who just want to
innovate.
People with disabilities aresome of the most creative
problem solvers in the world.
Like we don't have a choice,the world isn't built for us.
We, you know, we want to work,we want to shop, we want to get
an education.
Sometimes you just got tofigure it out on your own, and

(23:19):
we're really good at doing that.
And so companies can tap intothis engine of innovation, and
so they'll do things likegenerative conversations where
they're really trying tounderstand, you know, what are
the needs of this community ofpeople, and how can we use that
to build better product, tobuild new product, to build new
service offerings.
So we invest in helping connectcompanies to that community for

(23:43):
those reasons.
And sometimes that can looklike something as simple as just
doing user research on yourproduct in the development
lifecycle.
And sometimes it's that morecomplex forward-thinking,
innovation, and sometimes it'sjust compliance with
accessibility laws.
So um, if you want to dobusiness in Europe nowadays,
there's the EuropeanAccessibility Act.

(24:03):
If you're gonna sell productsor goods in Europe, you have to
be compliant.
And Europe is really good atenforcement of legislation, so
that's got a lot of companiesreally thinking, you know, this
is something they have to investin.

Thanks, Kate.
Michael, um, can you tell us alittle bit about Test Party and
similar to Kate, how does yoursolution help companies that are
making accessibility andusability uh kind of uh central
to design development of digitalspaces?

Yeah, I mean this panel is all about how do
you design for accessibilityfrom day one.
And really, I'm thinking a lotabout how do you design from day
zero, even before you havesomeone thinking about uh what
accessibility looks like in acertain product.
And so what I love aboutcompanies like Fable and what
Kate works on is it helps you topull into your QA process, to

(24:59):
pull into your ideation process,people with disabilities to
evaluate your products.
Our question is what can you dowith automation?
What can you do on thenon-human side that pairs with a
lot of this human work so thatyou can ensure that even at a
baseline, you're achieving somesort of base level of
compliance?
Um I know we've talked a lotabout what disabilities and

(25:21):
accessibility is.
I'm curious out of the in theaudience, by show of hands, like
who would say that either theyhave a disability or they have
an immediate family member witha disability?
Yeah, for context, it's likeclose to half the room, right?
Um which is it's invisible.
On our team, 75% of our of ouremployees either have a
disability or have a familymember with a disability.

(25:42):
And I think what's nice aboutthat for us is it's it's created
this culture at our companywhere people have a passion for
the work that they do.
And our customers, when I'mtraveling and and meeting, you
know, different executives, someof whom have been hit with some
of these lawsuits that Katejust mentioned, like they take
it as a personal offense becausethey have a personal connection
to disability andaccessibility.

(26:02):
But they don't know how todesign for accessibility, or
they don't even know thatthere's a set of standards like
the web content accessibilityguidelines, that you can look at
this rule book and thisguidebook, and it'll kind of
teach you how to do that.
So, really, our solution is togive people that baseline.
Can we create AI tools, AIagents, prompts, um specifically

(26:23):
tuned large language modelsaround accessibility standards
that can always be on in yourcode base and flag things and
fix things for you?
Um I remember when we firstpitched this idea like two and a
half years ago, it seemed kindof like you know, code rewriting
was not a thing, like um, youknow, Cursor was was just
starting up.
Uh really the the closestindustry to us that we looked at

(26:44):
as an example was the securityindustry.
Companies like Sneak andCernarcube and AcuNetics, which
had turned on kind of always onsecurity and made that the
industry standard.
Um I think the vision, not justfor our company, but for others
that are doing AI andaccessibility, I would say
there's maybe two or three otherthan us.
Um that's our focus.
So I guess the the call forpeople in the audience is like

(27:06):
there's a lot of like greenspace here.
Like in any other industry, ifyou heard 1.6 billion users, 500
billion in spending power, youheard you heard 5,000 lawsuits a
year of people needing tochange their business to comply
with regulation, like you wouldbe sprinting to build that
startup.
And for some reason, we havethree competitors.
Like, to me, I mean, I'm happywith that because you know it's

(27:28):
great.
But realistically, that's, Ithink that's what's interesting.
And Molly brought it up, like,people think of accessibility as
charity, and it's sometimespeople say, well, the business
case is, you know, I've neverseen someone with a disability
use my website.
Well, yeah, because yourwebsite's super inaccessible.
How are they going to?
And so it's really interesting,and and you know, being in this
industry now for two and a halfyears, um, you know, I had done

(27:51):
consulting at Google andaccessibility and at the UN in
accessibility, but it wasn'tuntil I started working
full-time that I realized justuh how much opportunity there
was.
But that's kind of an answer toyour question, Jennison, and
then a bunch of other randomstuff.
Hopefully that's good.

No, that's perfect.
Uh Kate, uh, how do tech-basedsolutions like like Michael's at
Test Party complement uh yourFable's human-led solution?

I think um in order to do accessibility well,
companies need to have more thanone tool in their toolbox.
And so when we think abouttechnology, technology gets us
this wide reach.
We're able to do a lot ofthings quickly, cover a lot of
ground.
So you're able to look at awebsite or an app and know what
are some of those things thatjust aren't working by just

(28:40):
evaluating the code.
And that's really that can bereally easy to do with
technology and hard to do withhumans.
What humans do is they give youthese really deep insights that
the technology can't.
So folks can make what by thebooks, if you're like following
the guidance on how to make anaccessible product, it seems
completely accessible on paper,and then somebody uh you know

(29:04):
who's blind or low of vision orhard of hearing tries to use the
product, and they're like,Well, but I can't actually buy
anything here.
I got stuck in the checkoutprocess and I can't complete my
purchase.
And you know, you'll miss thatif you're just using the
technology, but on the sameside, if you're just trying to
use humans all the time foreverything, it becomes

(29:24):
unscalable.
So they're really complementarysolutions where you can find
some basic accessibility issuesat a very wide reach across not
just one, but like manyproducts, and you know, work
that into your productdevelopment cycle so your
engineers are getting help veryearly on in fixing these issues

(29:44):
before they ever make it intoproduction.
And then you have maybe yourdesign or your research team
connecting directly with peoplewith disabilities to get their
perspective, their insights onhow we should design this thing,
how should we build this thing,is this gonna work for you, is
this gonna make it delightfulfor you.
And the things that we learnfrom those human insights, they

(30:05):
tend to expand to a lot morethan just people with
disabilities.
So we know, especially with GenZ, a lot more people are
identifying as neurodivergent.
So I don't know if that'sbecause diagnoses are getting
better or there's less biasagainst disabilities.
So, you know, all the thingsyou do for somebody who might
have a cognitive disability hasthis huge reach into the younger

(30:29):
generation.
Um, and then the oldergeneration as well, all those
seniors who maybe are in theearly stages where their memory
is not great or they're startingto face cognitive decline.
So all of those things youlearn apply to them as well.
And then you've got this middleof everyone who's working their
butts off and is so busy, andthey want everything easy and

(30:50):
simple too.
So we take those human insightsand we just expand those in the
product and we make productsthat just work for everybody.

I'll just make a comment also that that
um, you know, those those folkswho are, those of us who are
aging now have this expectationabout technology and what's
available.
And so I personally predictthat, you know, as the years go
on and more and more people age,they're still gonna demand

(31:21):
access to the same technologythey were used to when they
didn't have a disability.
Um so that's just gonna makeour area that much more uh
valuable and interesting um andput more demands on it.
Um a question for you, Michael,and and if others want to chime
in on this one as well.
We'll start with Michael.

(31:42):
Um as a tech founder, what isit about this, some may argue,
very niche space?
Um got you interested in inspending time in it?

Well, I'll start by saying I don't think
the space is that niche.
And I say that because like oneof the arguments that we make
to our customers, we work nowwith like close to 36 e-commerce
brands.
Some are super small, and someyou probably have heard of, like
Magic Spoon, the CerealCompany, Levain Bakery, Durai
Home, um Tatcha, Unilever'sbrand, those sorts of stuff are

(32:20):
all our customers of ours.
Um and when we work with thesecustomers, one thing that that
we argue is if you make yourwebsite more accessible, it also
becomes more searchable onsearch tools like Google and
Bing, but also more searchableon GEO tools, which is like
generative engine optimization.
All right, how do you ensurethat an LLM can find your

(32:41):
website?
And we do this this thinkinginternally where we ask the
question why is it that you knowChatGPT can better navigate an
accessible website versus aninaccessible website?
And we often attribute it towhat we call headless browsing,
right?
You know, this a browser isgoing to be spun up on the
background of ChatGPT, thatbrowser has to navigate with a
keyboard in a similar way thatsomeone with a physical

(33:03):
impairment may only be able tonavigate a website with a
keyboard.
And so there are a lot ofsimilarities.
And two years ago, when all ofthis kind of AI stuff was
happening, and I had studiedcomputer science and written my
senior thesis on GDPR, I sawaccessibility as being that next
wave, not just for legalcompliance, but also for making
more deep technical umcompliance.

(33:24):
I also want to respond to whatKate said about the intersection
and importance of both manualum testing and validation and
automation.
Because I think when I talk toour customers, they always ask
the question what is anaccessible website?
Like what are theseaccessibility features?
And it's things like colorcontrast, it's things like text
size, it's things like are theheadings properly labeled?

(33:46):
It's things like alternativetext on images.
Um and those things can beautomatically tested for.
And then there's things thatthat even today, even as big of
an AI accessibility guy as I am,that have to be manually
tested.
Things like can you navigate awebsite with a keyboard?
What's the general experienceand usability of a site?
Um, you know, can you navigatea site with a screen reader?

(34:08):
Uh which is which is the waythat people who might be blind
or low vision will navigate awebsite.
Or what does it look like at400, 500% zoom on a mobile
website?
And sometimes I'll I'll testour customers' sites and you
zoom into 400%, and that topbanner takes up 75% of the
screen, and it's impossible tonavigate.
It would pass you know all ofthe automated checks, but when
you actually do a manual check,it's it's virtually impossible.

(34:32):
Right?
And so that's how we how wecame into the industry.
I think where I seeaccessibility going in the
future, especially as peoplestart browsing less and relying
on the AI agents and these sortsof tools, um, these tools need
to navigate the internet in someway as well.
And our big bet is that makingwebsites more accessible will
have some positive effects on onthat sort of browsing and

(34:52):
navigation as well.

Jennison, can I chime in here?
This is Chris here.
So an example of an industry.
So ultimately, if you're acompany, you want to have access
to the greatest number ofcustomers possible, right?
That's just good business.
And so an industry that isleaning into accessibility,
which I think is a very goodexample, is travel.

(35:14):
And so we've invested in anaccessible travel company called
Wheel the World.
Um, but the travel industry hascome to the realization um that
people with disabilities liketo travel just as much as people
without disabilities.
And when they travel, they tendto travel with their friend
friends, their family, and theircaregivers.
And if you can't accommodatethe one person in the group that

(35:37):
has a disability, the wholegroup's going somewhere else.
So whether that's your hotel,your venue, your park, uh your
restaurant.
And so the travel industry hasstarted to lean into
accessibility quite a bitbecause the stats I gave you
earlier, or several of us gaveyou, is if one in four adults,

(35:57):
one in six people has adisability, that's what, 15 to
20 percent of like yourpotential customer base.
But when you now include theirfamily and friends and
caregivers, that jumps to like60 plus percent.
And so the reality of excluding60 percent plus of the market
opportunity for yourself is justbad business.

(36:18):
And so that's just one of manyexamples of an industry that's
leaning into accessibility, notonly because it's the right
thing to do, but it's alsoreally good for business.

I think it's an interesting point on travel
because a lot of times when wethink about accessibility, we
think about either compliance orwebsite or can I can I work,
can they do these things?
But leisure is reallyimportant.
And I think your point aroundlike the people who are
traveling together, but alsolike who has all the money and
free time right now, right?

(36:47):
It's people who are retired.
And like they want to spend,they want to travel, they want
to do things, and on averagethey are acquiring disabilities.
And so why why would you giveup on the population that has
the most money and the mostability to spend it on the road?

That's great.
Um before I open it toquestions, uh I'll just see if
anyone has any else, anyone elsehas any final words?
Anything else they want tocover?
We good?

I guess. Michael, you want to go?
I guess I guess for me, I thinkthat with the the advent of
things like AI and technology,like assistive technology
services, AI, we're all seeingit in real time on a daily
basis, the profoundly positiveimpact it is having in the lives

(37:41):
of people with disabilities.
Um but many of those solutionsthat are being developed are the
new curb cut effects orcaptioning effects that are that
are gonna have value to thebroader population.
And so I do think we're at amoment in time where we have, I
think, the greatest opportunityif we work together and
collaborate to create a worldgoing forward that it's not

(38:04):
better for just some of us, butbetter for all of us.

Can I caveat that?

Please.

Um speaking of AI, I just need to point out
that it was built on anaccessible inaccessible
internet.
So just bringing AI into itisn't gonna solve the problem,
but intentionally saying we cando better, I think, is the path
forward.

I'm gonna jump on the AI bandwagon if I might,
and just say like there's thereis a lot of risk with AI and AI
being able to amplify biases.
Um we see a lot of that in likehiring processes where people
with disabilities are typicallyeither unemployed or
underemployed, but then there'sthis great benefit.

(38:47):
Like AI has benefited mepersonally so much in the last
few years, um, just throughthese automated captions in
meetings.
So everyone's shifting toonline meetings and every
meeting having transcripts, andI've got this ability to
participate in meetings at workin a way that I've never had
before.
So there's a lot of benefitsand risk all packaged together,

(39:09):
and we just need to extract thebenefits and uh mitigate the
risk, and you know, life will begood.

Michael, any?

uh I'm excited for the open QA.

Uh Michael, your uh your website for test
party?

Oh yeah.
Testparty.ai.

And Kate for Fable?

Makeitfable.com.

Thank you.
And Chris, where can peoplefind uh information about you
and your

you can find me on LinkedIn or just go to
SamaritanPartners.com.

Great and Molly?

We are at remarkable.org.

Thank you.
All right, let's open it up tosome questions.
I don't know if we've got likea roving mic down there or if
people will just stand up andwe'll repeat the question.

Do you do we have a roving mic?

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you, Mike.

And if you could just uh start with your
first name and who you have thequestion addressed to.

Question #1 (40:06):
Yeah, my name is Logan.
I run the Indiana Center forEmerging Technologies.
We actually have a programcalled Accessible Innovation
that focuses on disability tech.
Um so I work with about 20innovators across the state.
Are there is there oneparticular area that you would
like to see innovators focusmore on or really put a focus

(40:28):
on?
I've seen so many differentinnovators not talk to people
that have these livedexperiences and they're trying
to drop a solution in and it'sbeing repeated over and over.
But is there anything inparticular that you see that
really stands out?
So maybe just one by one onthat.

I can start.
Um, and I'm not an investor, soI don't see as much as Molly
and Chris see.
But I will say one thing thatthat I focus on is the digital
space, and I think there's a lotof opportunity and thinking
about how we can use technologyto augment physical
accessibility and physicalaccess.
Um I do think that like thenext wave of AI, call it in a

(41:07):
year or two years, you know,everyone's talking about AGI and
LLMs and et cetera, et cetera.
But there's a lot of innovationin the robotics space.
And I think that theintersection of robotics and
accessibility, I haven't yetseen in my peer group of
founders people building reallycool tools in that space.
Potentially, you know, the metaRay bands are an example of
that, but I think it can go alot further.

(41:27):
So maybe that'll be my next actafter this one is uh wrapped
up.

And just to build on that, I think what Meta
did with the Ray Band bybuilding this mainstream
product, but then also makingsure they incorporate all this
accessibility, you know, whetherit's for people who are blind
or hard of hearing, that idea ofyou can take a mainstream
product and expand it to thisother audience, but you've got
to work with that audience tomake it work for them.

(41:52):
And so I think there's thishuge opportunity that people
sometimes think, oh, I'm justgonna make this thing for the
gen population, and they'remissing out on that.

Or even one example is like Waymo.
Like Waymo cars are an exampleI think of of really good
self-driving cars that arereally like precise in their
location techniques, potentiallyare really good innovations in
this space as well.

I think a point that you raise that is
critically important is peopleare building things for any
customer, but customers withdisabilities specifically, when
you don't include those peoplein the process, right?
And so the phrase nothing aboutus without us, um it's just
good design to include thecommunity in that process,

(42:35):
right, from the beginning.
And there are some wonderfulexamples of that within
disability.
So uh yeah, if you're mentoringand advising those companies,
tell them to go talk to theactual customers, because the
last thing you want to be is acompany that has a solution
looking for a problem.
So that's lack of productmarket fit, and that is not a
good place to be.
One quick thing about I thinkthe integration of hardware and

(42:55):
software services.
So a great example, this isgonna be a totally selfish plug.
We're investors in a companycalled Be My Eyes, it's an app
for the blind low visioncommunity.
They have a partnership withMeta and the Ray Band glasses,
and so their service isintegrated into the glasses.
So people who are blind lowvision actually, for I think the
first time have hands-freeaccessibility, so they can just

(43:16):
say, Meta, call Be My Eyes, andthen either their AI agent or a
human volunteer will see throughthe glasses and help them
navigate what they're um tryingto navigate, uh, whether it's a
task or a physical environment,et cetera.
And so, like, that's awonderful example of bringing
hardware and software together.
And Be My Eyes, the communityhas been involved in the

(43:36):
development of their productfrom day one, um, where it all
comes together in a really niceway and delivers value for
everybody.

Molly, did you have any thought on this uh
on the on Logan's question?

I think it was very covered, but uh the only
thing that I would say is umyou're rarely the first person
to ever consider a solution forthis technology.
And a lot of times people willcome to me and be like, I'm the
only one doing it.
And I'll be like, I have a listof five others.
And like, that's great.
Competition is is important,but there are so many lessons

(44:08):
that you can learn from notbeing the only one that I think
really doing that research tounderstand what has come before
you and what already exists isreally important.

I'll just add, like uh most people on this
panel were have mentioned theimportance of consulting people
with disabilities or at leastlistening and finding out what
they need.
I mean, there's so many timeswhere I've heard about a piece
of technology that soundsinteresting, but then when
people describe what it lookslike, you know, they're a pair

(44:39):
of glasses, but to wear them,you almost have these large
cameras and things on it.
You wouldn't catch me deadwalking around wearing something
like that or a vibrating coat.
I mean I get that might be cooland interesting for a tech
geek to say, yeah, let's dothat.
But then I feel bad because atthe end of the day, they've

(45:01):
created something that no one'sgonna use because those of us
with the disabilities orimpairments are gonna have to
be like accepting of it to useit.
So thanks, Logan, for that one.
We have time for maybe one morequestion.

Question #2 (45:19):
Hello?
Oh, perfect.
Uh hi, panel.
My name is Phil.
Thank you for all the greatinsight you have shared, um,
especially around AI in theaccessibility space.
Uh AI is it's a great tool, butaccessibility and inclusion,
it's a mindset.
Um organizations can use AI tohelp accessibility, but it's not
going to solve the problem.
Um but with AI and it now beingable to really advance tech at

(45:44):
a rate not seen before, um, andaccessibility typically being
more of a reactive decision andmove by decision makers, how
can we change the conversationso that new technologies that
get built in the next three tofive years, especially because
of AI, you know, are built withinclusion in mind when I'm
thinking about the AR, VR space?

(46:05):
Like that's going to be so bigfor people globally with
disabilities, but inclusion hasto be built into the
conversation from the beginning.
So how do we create thatconversation to really empower
decision makers to thinkproactively as compared to
reactively?

Kate, can I ask you maybe to

Sure, and maybe I'll have a little bit of a
different answer here than Iwould typically give, but I
think we need more people withdisability in leadership
positions in companies.
And I think that's where someof the big gaps are that you
know the C-suite or the VPs oryou know the heads of these
companies traditionally are veryhomogenous.

(46:42):
And we really need to seediversity and leadership in
companies to start to see peoplethinking differently about AI
and development.
So, and you know, that all justspeaks to the tools that we use
and how we hire and how weaccommodate people with
disabilities in the workplace.
And I'm really lucky to havehad the opportunity to get the
accommodations I need to be in aleadership role in Fable.

(47:04):
And many others aren't.

Um if I could kind of speak to it from the
startup space, I think, Iunderstand the reasons that
people don't want to buildaccessibly, limited resources,
and like the hustle culture.
Hustle culture is ableist.
Um and I think that inthe assumption that you need to

(47:28):
go fast, you cut as many cornersas possible.
And those corners usually leavea lot of people behind.
And so I think as a startupecosystem, we also need to
evaluate how are we talkingabout what we do, how are we
asking our founders to operate?
And like, are we actually ableto say, you know, take your foot

(47:51):
off the gas a little bitbecause the market down the road
will be bigger if you just doit right from the start, instead
of just like hacking it andbeing like, we'll figure out
accessibility when somebody suesus, right?
Like, you we have to be betteras an as investors, as
accelerators, as people who fundthese startups, at saying you

(48:14):
should include everybody becauseit's good business , and I will
wait.

And on that note, we are right at 10:45.
So I want to have you all joinme in thanking our panel. Thank
you so much.

Man, that was incredible.
That was truly an awesomepanel, Chris.

Yeah, it was super fun, and kind of almost like two
panels in one, where at thebeginning it was me and Molly
talking about the startupecosystem, and then after that
it was Kate and Michael reallygetting into inclusive design
and digital accessibility andthe scaling of that.
And Jennison as always done anamazing job.

(48:55):
We will put links in the shownotes to contact those folks on
LinkedIn, links to theircompanies, links to our
wonderful friends at RallyInnovation, so you can learn
more about the conference aswell.

Well that wraps up Investing in Accessibility.
As I alwayssay, go live beyond your challenges, and we'll see you in two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a Samaritan Partners podcast. Where we invest in change for accessibility, not wait for change. If you want to follow us you can find us on YouTube or LinkedIn at @SamaritanPartners. If you would like to invest in Samaritan Partners email Chris at chris@samaritanpartners.com. If you would like to learn more about us go to www.samaritanpartners.com. You can take the first step in investing in change by giving us five stars and sharing this podcast with everybody that you know so we can spread the word and so we can give access to all by Investing in Accessibility.

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