September 2, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of Investing in Accessibility, hosts Kelvin Crosby and Chris Maher welcome Mike May—entrepreneur, Paralympic athlete, navigation technology pioneer, and, as Chris calls him, “the most interesting man in the world.”
Mike shares his remarkable journey, from losing his sight at age three to regaining partial vision decades later, working for the CIA, competing on the world stage in skiing, and founding companies like Sendero Group, which developed the first GPS products for blind travelers. He reflects on the lessons learned from both entrepreneurial wins and setbacks, the mottos that guide his life, and the resilience and adaptability that fuel innovation.
The conversation also explores the future of assistive technology—from smart glasses to AI-powered navigation—and how products that serve both disability and mainstream markets can drive lasting impact. Mike also offers candid advice to early-stage founders about balancing passion with business viability, staying adaptable, and always looking for alternative solutions.
This inspiring discussion highlights not only Mike’s extraordinary path but also broader insights on problem-solving, resilience, and building a more accessible world.
Links & Resources:
Mike May: LinkedIn
Crashing Through Book: Website
The People Make The Places: Podcast
American Printing House: Website
COMING SOON!
American Sign Language (ASL) and Captioning for each episode will be provided on our YouTube channel. Go to handle @SamaritanPartners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelvin Crosby (00:06):
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
(00:30):
Hey, so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility.
My name is Kelvin Crosby andhere is my co-host, Chris Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:48):
Good Kelvin, I'm much better now that I'm here
with you and seeing you and sothings are good, my friend.
I'm the only person on today'sshow that can see.
Kelvin Crosby (00:56):
Yeah, but the thing is, the guest that we have
today, he's a once upon a timepotentially was a spy, but he he
was never able to tell us thetruth because he's probably
under one of the top secretprotocols, whatever you know.
And so I'm excited abouttoday's guest.
Chris Maher (01:15):
I'm really excited.
Our guest today, I think hesurpasses the Dos Equis beerman
of being the most interestingman in the world, for sure.
Kelvin Crosby (01:24):
So I'm excited'm excited.
Well, maybe we flip it around alittle bit.
Let me introduce our guest.
Mike May.
Welcome to the Investing inAccessibility podcast man.
Mike May (01:34):
Yeah, nice to be here, Mr.
Crosby.
Kelvin Crosby (01:38):
I'm excited that you're here and I tell you,
we're two blindies together.
We're trying to make life, youknow.
And I think what's awesome isyou and I have known each other
for quite a while and I'vealways been inspired by what
you've been able to accomplish.
And I still remember the firstGPS for blind people that you
(02:02):
were the main driver force ofdeveloping that.
I forget what the name of itwas.
It was the.
What was that GPS
Mike May (02:11):
The first ever one was at Arkenstone.
It was a map-only system calledAtlas Speaks and I still have a
version of it today and it'samazing because it's so
important when you're gettingaround if you know before you go
(02:32):
.
Kelvin Crosby (02:32):
I mean truly as visually impaired people, we've
got to know where we're goingbefore we get there.
I tell you, I'm not sure wherewe're going at the moment, so
I'm going to hand it back overto Chris.
That way we're going in theright direction.
Chris Maher (02:48):
I could listen to you two gentlemen talk all day.
So, yeah, we're super excitedto have Mike May with us today.
Mike is part entrepreneur, partevangelist, part navigation
tech advisor, Paralympicathlete, we think was a spy at
some point or worked for a spyagency and, ultimately, one of
the best all around good peoplein our world today.
(03:09):
And, Mike, so good to see you.
You've been, I met you shortlyafter I launched Samaritan
Partners.
I met you at the firstconference I went to, which was
I think it was M- Enabling inlike the fall of 2023.
And you were so nice and kindand generous in that first
meeting and said, hey, here's mycard, and if you ever need
anything, let me know.
(03:30):
And then I've proceeded to seeyou at every single event I've
ever been to since then.
Mike May (03:36):
You're everywhere.
Chris Maher (03:37):
No, you are.
You are, like I don't know whenyou sleep.
Mike May (03:41):
That's why we run into each other.
We're both everywhere.
Chris Maher (03:47):
Yeah, well it's so great to have you here today.
Welcome.
Yeah, it's great to be here and, Kelvin, I've got to say that
when I and we'll get to this atsome point.
But I have a little bit ofvision and one of the most
exciting things to me abouthaving some vision are bright
colors and bright lights.
So I always love the fact thatat conferences I know when
(04:11):
you're around, because here youcome cruising by with a See Me
Cane, which is high contrast,it's high visibility and I can
see you, you know, 10, 20 yardsaway.
Kelvin Crosby (04:25):
Yeah, well, I mean, I'll never forget you
pulling me, like hey, yo you.
And you didn't know who I was,but you're like I see that, and
then you're like, now I know whoit is.
Mike May (04:39):
Well, yeah, because somebody else might have a See
Me Cane.
So I don't want to immediatelysay Kelvin, I just know that
it's a See Me and I need tocheck it out because it's.
You know, it's one of thechallenges when you're blind is
people identification.
You're at a conference, youknow there's lots of people you
know, but unless you hear thevoice, or you hear them calling
(05:02):
out their dog's name, you don'tknow who's there.
And so I've really enjoyed thefact that I can always find you
Kelvin Crosby (05:14):
Yep, yep, it's always interesting.
I mean we're getting a littleoff track today, but when we get
into this world, I mean likeI'm starting to get into some
new groups and I'm like allright, buddies, like you got to
tell me who you are every singletime, whether or not I
understand your voice or not,like because I'm also deaf, so
(05:36):
don't come at me with hey yo,how you doing?
I'm like are you Bob?
Are you Jim?
I mean I have no idea.
Mike May (05:48):
Yeah, he's a guessing game.
Kelvin Crosby (05:50):
Yep, exactly, exactly.
So, all right, well, we'regoing to hand it back over to
Chris so that we get back ontrack.
Chris Maher (06:00):
Thank you, Kelvin, and it's.
I'm feeling a little insecureon today's podcast episode
because I'm with two guys thatare so technologically advanced.
Before we, before we startedrecording, you two were going
through a whole bunch oftechnical stuff that that I
didn't understand half of whatyou were talking about.
We had a little technicalglitch to get started here and,
(06:22):
as everybody knows, all of ourlisteners, Kelvin is the
technical brains behind thisoperation.
I show up and we do theepisodes and then I write a
little copy and post on LinkedIn, but but Kelvin handles
everything in the backend.
And and, Mike, when I see you atconferences, you've always got
something new that you'retesting out, some sort of
(06:42):
assistive technology or device.
Yeah, so I'm a bit of a Ludditeon today's show and feeling a
bit insecure.
But, Mike, let's start from thebeginning, and your background
and your lived experience, Ithink, has informed so much of
what you have done in yourprofessional career from not
being born blind, as far as Ican remember, and had an
(07:06):
accident when you were a youngchild, and then how your parents
raised you and then you becamethis amazing Olympic athlete,
paralympic athlete, and then anentrepreneur, and now you're,
you know, consulting andadvising large corporates as
well as startups.
And then in in there you workedfor the CIA.
So, can you start from thebeginning and kind of take us
(07:26):
through the arc of that and howyour, how your lived experience
has really informed theprogression of your career?
Mike May (07:33):
Sure, I should mention for anybody who knows me and
has heard my voice before you'llnotice a bit of a speech
impediment due to some impact onmy mouth and my throat from
cancer that I had in 2016 withchemo and radiation, and it's
(07:57):
super annoying, but it's what itis.
So, just if you're hearing that, I'm just giving you a heads up
.
So you know I can trace a lotof my approach to the world back
to my mother.
She was an amazing person and ahero and the one that really
inspired my curiosity.
(08:17):
I went blind, totally blind,from a chemical explosion when I
was three and then I had a stemcell and cornea transplant in
2000, which gave me some lowvision.
So it was pretty amazing tohave 43 years of total blindness
(08:38):
and then, all of a sudden, Icould see and it was
overwhelming, it was fascinating, it was a lot of things, but it
gave me some useful vision.
But in a lot of other ways Ihad to learn to rely on my
blindness skills.
So braille, cane, dog and notto rely on the vision for any
(09:03):
kind of mobility stuff.
So that was just a learningprocess, but those are two key
milestones in my life.
And, Chris, you mentioned theCIA.
I was in graduate school inWashington DC and living with a
bunch of guys and the CIA wasrecruiting at the Johns Hopkins
School of Advanced InternationalStudies, where we were on
(09:27):
DuPont Circle, and they sort ofjoked about applying for the CIA
because it was not exactly acool thing to do back then and I
thought, wow, I bet they'venever had a blind person work
for them.
So I interviewed and it took awhile, but one thing led to
another and they hired me and Iworked out at their main
(09:50):
headquarters in McLean, Virginia, as a political risk analyst on
Africa.
Chris Maher (09:58):
Wow, how long did you do that for Mike?
Mike May (10:02):
It was a bit over a year, it was during graduate
school, it was part-time and youknow, when I graduated it was
sort of a decision.
Do I stay and work for thegovernment?
Which seemed, I mean, it wasinteresting the CIA and all that
(10:22):
but it is still governmentbureaucracy and that really
wasn't my cup of tea.
So I went back out toCalifornia and ended up working
for a bank and then a defensecontractor.
And then I got into theentrepreneurial world in 1984
(10:42):
with some buddies from thatdefense contractor and, being
music lovers, we always wereinterested in how could you have
a music source that wasn'tdamaging the medium, which would
be vinyl.
And so we came up, after fouryears and $7 million of venture
(11:06):
capital, the world's first laserturntable called the Phenal
Turntable, laser Turntable.
And that was a fascinatingexperience because at the time
the CD had not started, it wasjust being researched and
developed between '84 and '88.
(11:27):
It went from an idea to anactual product and eventually it
blew us out of the water.
But in the process, you know,we developed this amazing device
that played standard vinylrecords with a laser instead of
a needle.
It's when I met Stevie Wonder,because my partner said, you
(11:53):
know we got to raise some moneyhere.
I want you to go find GordonGetty, the oil tycoon and Stevie
Wonder.
And it took me about two yearsbefore I got to Stevie Wonder.
It wasn't easy, but that'swhere I first met him and that
was my first startup and Irealized that was really more my
(12:14):
calling and than working for abank or a government agency.
Chris Maher (12:20):
I told you listeners, we're talking to the
most interesting man in theworld and we're just getting
started.
Mike, how long after that didyou found the Sendero Group?
Mike May (12:31):
In the 90s the first kind of accessible computer
stuff started happening.
We went from the VersaBrailleand Apple QE and some of that
stuff.
And so after I went toArkenstone where we had the
first GPS and map products, theydecided that GPS was not ready
(12:55):
for primetime and so theycanceled the GPS product.
And I said, okay, how about ifI take it, if you spin it off
(13:25):
and you know raising money, andalmost running out of money and
you know being the last one onthe payroll that got paid and
all the growing pains of astartup.
Kelvin Crosby (13:36):
Yep, yep.
I mean I would love to ask youthis question.
When the vinyl laser thing wentdown and you had that failure,
like how did that prepare you tobe able to launch Sendero Group
and really prepare yourself tobuild that?
Mike May (13:56):
Well, it probably went down the way that it was meant
to go because of the CD comingonto the scene.
There's nothing we could havedone differently to make it work
.
But we did have to give up alot of control and ownership of
the company, as we raised.
$7 million back in 1984 was alot of money, and so we had to
(14:19):
give away a lot of the company,and because we did that, our
vultures, I mean venturecapitalists they booted us out
and so that was.
You know that's how that endedup coming down.
And eventually they sold it offand the laser turntable still
(14:42):
exists, owned by a Japanesecompany.
So it wasn't a total bust, butit was for us, and at that point
my buddy, Rob and I, both wentoff and started some other
things and, you know, that thingled to another thing led to
another thing.
Chris Maher (14:59):
Yeah, and Mike, in parallel to that you, you were
world-class skier and, and Ibelieve you stood on the podium
at the 1984 Paralympics.
Is that correct?
Mike May (15:13):
Yeah, the '84 was the, well the Paralympics kind of
evolved.
It used to be called the WorldWinter Games and the goal was to
be in more parity with theregular Olympics, and that
didn't really happen until '88.
But there was a worldcompetition in '82 in
(15:37):
Switzerland and then '84, and Iwas on the podium on both of
those events.
And then we went from, my guideand I went down to Sarajevo to
the regular Olympics, becausethat's when they had the first
demo of disabled skiers at theOlympics and they didn't include
blind people.
(15:57):
So we kind of crashed the partyand ended up skiing at the
Sarajevo Olympics on MountJahorina and we were the first
ever to be in the Paralympics,albeit uninvited.
Kelvin Crosby (16:14):
Well, I'm just fascinated.
I've known Mike for a long time, but I've never heard his whole
story.
Chris Maher (16:21):
Yeah, and and Mike, as a an elite athlete while
you're, you were doing thatwhile you were getting into
entrepreneurship and itoverlapped for a period of time
and then you continued with yourentrepreneurial journey.
Were there skills, experiencesfrom being an athlete or lessons
from being an elite athletethat helped you transition to
(16:44):
that entrepreneurship or madeyou a better entrepreneur?
Mike May (16:48):
Well, it's all interconnected in terms of your
approach to life, and I thinkfor blind people, we always have
to be looking at alternativetools and techniques.
I mean, that's the bread andbutter of what we do, how we
operate.
And then you also have to havea lot of personal qualities the
fortitude to deal with let'scall it misguided attitudes in
(17:13):
the general world, and so whenyou're doing a startup, you're
always thinking of alternativetools and techniques.
How can I raise money?
How can I market?
Is this really a product that'sviable?
You might have to pivot theproduct.
You start in one place and thenyou move to another.
(17:36):
So there's a lot of that samekind of thing that I'd say I
started learning to be adaptablewhen I was three years old.
So on the playground, I had tobe adaptable, figure out.
I could either stay in thestudy room or I could be out on
the playground doing sports, andso I had to figure out what's a
(17:59):
different way to play football,to play baseball.
So I think my whole life wasset up to be an entrepreneur
because I was having to learn tobe entrepreneurial at an early
age.
Chris Maher (18:12):
I love that.
I have a few mottos that I'lljust mention that kind of govern
my life, and one is "the betteryou get around, the better you
engage in life.
" So that really relates toorientation and mobility
training.
It relates to sports, becauseif you learn to run, if you
(18:36):
learn to have good spatialperception, you develop your
ability to get around, and thenthat in turn is useful.
If you're going to go toconferences, you're going to go
to meetings, if you're going togo out to lunch, you don't want
to be the blind guy who's alwaysfollowing and somebody else
makes the decisions of where doI go to lunch?
(18:58):
How do we get there?
I want to be the guy leadingthe way.
And then I also developed, withthe GPS, a motto was "the power
of getting un-lost.
" So one of the issues when youcan't see is if you get lost and
then you're stuck, then it's,you know, you're not going to
want to do it again.
(19:18):
So I realized that, hey, if Ihave different skills and
technology for getting out of apickle, getting un-lost, then I
have so much more options in theworld to explore.
And then there's another onewhich is fundamental, which is
(19:39):
"there's always a way", andthat's about finding workarounds
.
If you believe there's a way todo stuff, you will figure it
out, or you may figure out thereis no way, so I've got to drop
this thing and do something else.
But if you go into it figuringthere's always a way, I think it
(19:59):
helps you not give up onfinding those alternative tools
and techniques.
Kelvin Crosby (20:06):
I mean, as you're saying those things it's just
like it's so true.
Like as I was developing theSee Me Cane, like those.
It's like the minute I startedtesting it and the minute I
started doing things and theminute I started realizing
getting un- lost, be able tofind your way, being able to
have that confidence.
(20:26):
I mean that's not easy to get,but you do it over and over and
over again.
I mean, I tell people I'm oneof the best pole dancers in the
world.
I pole dance at least fivetimes a day.
You know, and I said you know,have you ever had a lap dance by
a fire hydrant?
They're not pleasant but they'requite shocking and I mean, why
(20:50):
do they put fire hydrants in themiddle of the sidewalk?
I still don't understand thatone.
But I mean, I think about itand it's like the way you push
through and and I think that'sso true, so true.
Chris Maher (21:08):
Mike, as you said these are life lessons for
everybody.
And, and if I was gonna try tosummarize it, I think it's about
problem solving.
You know, as you said, as athree-year-old you have to
become a great problem solver.
It's about being resilient andadaptable, right.
You've got to adapt.
And I think those three wordsare so critical for
(21:30):
entrepreneurship, especiallysomeone who is embarking on that
entrepreneurial journey for thefirst time right, they're a
first time founder, CEO or a COO.
.
It is a rollercoaster of a rideand there are lots of ups and
downs, and if you're notadapting and being resilient and
problem solving, cause, it'snot going to go exactly how you
(21:51):
planned it,.
Mike May (21:52):
It is not.
You can bet on that.
Chris Maher (21:56):
And so now after what?
18, 19 years, you leave Senderoand then you embark on this.
I don't want to call it asecond career, but this next
chapter where you're living intwo, at least from my
perspective, you're you'reliving in two worlds very
successfully and effectively,where you're working with larger
(22:18):
companies, kind of more whatyou would call corporates or
enterprise, in advisory andconsulting roles, but you're
also doing a lot of advising andmentoring with startups.
And and along the way, again,you, as you said, you want to be
the leader, you want to be thefirst mover.
Every time I see you at aconference, you've got something
new that you're testing out andso can you speak to that
(22:41):
experience you've had in thelast what is it?
Six or seven years in this morekind of consulting and advisory
role that you've been doing,fully immersed in disability and
accessibility?
Mike May (22:55):
When we wrapped up Sendero, and it was really Jim
Fruchterman from Arkenstone,when I was asking him about what
do you think, should I do this?
Should I do that?
He said declare victory andmove on.
Oh, okay, yeah, I guess I did apretty good job.
You know, the GPS is nowaffordable.
It's ubiquitous.
(23:16):
Blind people are using it.
They have many differentoptions, different brands, so I
started that thing.
So I declared victory and movedon.
Question was, what do I move onto?
And so the first opportunitythat came along was the CEO of
the Seattle Lighthouse for theBlind, which I did in 2017.
(23:37):
And then I went from there toWichita, Kansas, and joined
Envision, which is one of thebigger agencies providing
services to the blind, to startup a new thing they call the
Workforce Innovation Center, andI did that for about three
(23:58):
years.
And then I decided you know,with sort of COVID time, I can
work from anywhere and I had myfill of Wichita, which I really
liked, but it's a differentculture, different world than
you know my time in Californiaand Oregon and the West Coast.
So I looked at where to move toand I found near Tahoe so I
(24:31):
could be near skiing and friendsand family, and I moved to Reno
.
And then at that point, also inthat period of time, when I went
from Envision to Good Maps.
They were founded in March of2019.
And I went to the first meetingthe week that they announced
Good Maps and I said, oh wow, Ithink I'd like to get back into
(24:52):
the navigation business.
You know, maybe there's a fitfor me.
And I said, you know, if theposition comes up that makes
sense for me, let me know.
And they said we'll make one.
Chris Maher (25:04):
They're very smart people, Mike.
Mike May (25:07):
They did that and I joined Good Maps for three years
or so and then I went over toAPH the parent organization of
Good Maps consulting half time.
And that really was great froma number of aspects.
One was they gave me a moregeneral responsibility, not just
(25:31):
navigation, but coming up witha new white cane, working on
some of their tactical mapproducts.
The Monarch was just coming out, the tactile display, full-page
Braille display.
So that allowed me to work ontheir whole range of products,
of which they have over 700, anda lot of them are in the
(25:56):
navigation mobility kind ofarena.
And then I had half time to doother stuff.
And then that really circled meback to my startup days and
looking at the new technologythat was coming out, like the
one-court device for sports andsmart glasses and other indoor
(26:22):
navigation technology.
All this stuff was happeningand I just sort of put myself
out there.
If you want my two cents, I'llgive it to you.
Chris Maher (26:31):
I love it.
And everyone knows that.
You're so generous with yourtime and your feedback.
And with your experience, thatfeedback is incredibly valuable
for these early stage companies.
To take one little quick stepback, so APH, American Printing
House, Mike, I always thoughtyou started there first and then
you started working with GoodMaps when that got spun out, but
(26:53):
it was actually the opposite.
You started with Good Maps,which was a spin out, and then
that led you to working with theparent company.
That's really interesting.
So let's dig into the earlystage startup, innovation,
assistive tech.
What are the things that you'vebeen seeing recently that
really get you excited, whetherthat's for the blind, low vision
(27:14):
community or other areas of thedisability community?
Mike May (27:19):
Well, you know, I'm sure you go through the same
thought process, Chris.
When you're innovating, youthink of 10 things and maybe one
of them ends up resonating, andthere's so many things that can
knock a product out of thewater.
One of the things in thenavigation field that, and I
think it really applies to alladaptive technology, the more
(27:41):
that product can bedisability-wide.
So let's say, not just blind,it needs to be blind, low vision
, other disabilities and theholy grail is it's also useful
to sighted people.
So your market goes from 1% ofthe population, 2%, 5%, all of a
(28:13):
sudden to 100% and that's theultimate goal.
So I was always benchmarkingproducts in terms of their
applicability to a larger market.
And I think that's what's coolabout something like the smart
glasses, because when they'respecialized for a blind person,
those glasses and they don'tnecessarily look great, but they
function great.
You know those are going to be$2,000 to $2,500.
(28:35):
You get the version that worksfor sighted people.
They look great.
Maybe they don't have all thespecialized features, but oh, by
the way, they cost $299.
So it's really fascinating tofollow that trajectory.
Chris Maher (28:53):
Yeah, I think you're spot on about that in
terms of innovation.
I think that's, you know we wedid a an episode previously
about like a lifestyle businessversus an exit business.
And I think when theapplicability is beyond blind,
low vision to the broaderdisability community and then to
the broader general population,that's where you really start
(29:14):
to have an opportunity not onlyto scale the social impact that
you can deliver but how you canreally scale commercially,
right, revenue- wise.
And that's not to say thatcompanies that have a more
narrow focus aren't supervaluable.
For me as a venture investor,they may not be venture worthy
(29:36):
because that market may be toonarrow.
Like Kelvin and I have talkedin the podcast about his
business, the See Me Cane, whichhe's got a bit of a hybrid
for-profit, nonprofit modelthere that is not venture worthy
, but that's not to say thatit's not a really important
business that is solving areally important problem for
people.
And so, Mike, I think you hitthe nail on the head.
I think that's really goodadvice for an early stage
(29:59):
entrepreneur to be thinkingabout, especially in this
assistive tech and disabilitysector.
You may start off building fora very specific problem for a
very specific population, butlonger term can it be a much
broader application?
I think it's super advice.
And so what else are you seeingout there?
So smart glasses?
Absolutely.
(30:23):
And Mike, you know the folks atBe my Eyes very well, and we're
investors in them.
But integrating Be my Eyes intothose Meta smart glasses is a
wonderful integration andapplication or example what you
just said.
But is there anything else outthere?
Are there other applications ofsmart glasses?
Or?
I know navigation is a reallytough one to crack and I think
(30:45):
Good Maps is doing an amazingjob there.
But what else are you seeingout there that gets you excited,
whether it's for blind, lowvision or just kind of in
general?
Mike May (30:54):
Well, I should mention one other component of the
evolution of technology iscompetition.
And people might thinkautomatically that competition
is a bad thing.
For me, with GPS, it was areally good thing because when I
started Sendero in '99, therewas nobody else doing GPS for
(31:18):
the blind.
And once I started getting sometraction, then other people
took notice - HumanWare,Freedom Scientific - and they
said oh wow, and they madeproducts.
And when they made products Isold more.
So it legitimized a new marketarea that I was having a hard
(31:45):
time legitimizing.
Everybody just said well,that's Mike May on his soapbox.
Chris Maher (31:47):
It's a great point.
Like, as entrepreneurs, weshould not be afraid of
competition.
Competition, as you say, itvalidates the market, but it
also it helps to drive andaccelerate innovation, right,
because it's a race against timewhen you've got other
competitors.
I think that's a really goodpoint.
Mike May (32:05):
And people can use alternatives.
There's no, you know, there'slike indoor navigation.
I mean GoodMaps, it's probablymapped.
Let's say all the indoornavigation companies GoodMaps,
Waymap Next, some of the otherones they probably mapped 0.01%
(32:25):
of the buildings in the world.
So that tells you there's over99% still left to map and so
there's plenty of space.
But they run into the sameproblem I did with GPS in the
beginning, which was people justthought it was kind of a
sideline and didn't help allthat many people, when in fact
(32:47):
it does, and it just takes somemomentum to get past that
initial stage.
I'm really intrigued by Glide,the robot cane.
Chris Maher (33:00):
Oh, Amos Miller and Glidance?
Mike May (33:02):
Yeah, yeah.
The Glide is, you know, I wasfriends with Amos because he was
doing Soundscape before that,so he was, you know, one of the
better GPS products.
And so when you started talkingabout launching this company, I
just said, oh man, that I'm notsure.
(33:22):
That seems like kind of a weakidea.
But I also said, you know, Ialso thought the iPhone was a
really bad idea.
I thought a touch screen withnothing tactile on it.
Why would a blind person likethat?
And I'm happy to say I wastotally wrong.
(33:44):
People embraced it.
Look where we are today.
Chris Maher (33:48):
So, Mike, with Glidance, and they're leveraging
, I think, a decent amount of AIin their software and they'll
leverage it more and more goingforward.
Can you speak to AI and kind ofyour thoughts on kind of AI
today versus AI in the futureand kind of the good, the bad,
what you're excited about, whatyou're maybe a little
apprehensive about?
Mike May (34:08):
Yeah, I mean, I'm always a fan of realizing that
nothing is perfect.
The GPS is still not perfect.
It was less perfect when westarted.
Braille isn't perfect.
You know, I used to get you knowBraille translation when it was
first being done.
You know it wasn't all rightand I just said you know, some
(34:29):
Braille is better than noBraille.
So I think the same thing withAI.
Yeah, it's going to hallucinate, okay.
So what do I do as a user or asa developer to work around that,
to recognize that?
Yeah, it will get more accuratein the future.
But what about now?
And I mean I see stuff from myfriends who are much more into
(34:53):
AI than I am and I'm just myapproach right now is I'm going
to learn from them.
I'm going to get gadgets as asI can to test them and see if I
can get feedback.
But I think we got a lot ofcool things going on and I have
the.
I've had many pairs of smartglasses back to the first
(35:18):
Bluetooth Oakley glasses in 2010, 2008.
And you know, I have theEnvision and I'm looking forward
to the Echo Vision glasses.
I think they're very cool.
That's a case where they'respecializing in the blindness
market and they're competingwith a mainstream product.
(35:38):
So you know they have theirhands full, but I think their AI
is going to be something thatmaybe separates it in the way
that they customize it more forblind people and blind
applications.
Chris Maher (35:52):
At some point, Kelvin, we're going to have Mike
back and we're going to diginto your business, because I
know Mike has given you somegreat feedback over the years.
But, Mike, before we wrap up andask you to tell people how they
can get in touch with you andlearn more about your work, I
think a bunch of our listenersare early stage entrepreneurs,
you know, running startups inthe assistive tech and
(36:14):
disability space.
You've given some really goodadvice and some insights during
this conversation, but any finalwords for them in terms of tips
as they embark on thisentrepreneurial journey?
Mike May (36:28):
Well, I think you have to weigh your passion against
the business value of things, sodon't be afraid to look
mainstream and find outsomething that isn't blindness
specific.
One of my passion areas thatI've never quite followed
through with, but I still keepdipping a toe in the water, is
(36:51):
search and rescue, and this goesback to my son being killed in
an avalanche in 2016 and knowingthat there's some technology
that could have helped infinding him, if not preventing
that from happening, and so I'mvery, very interested in search
(37:11):
and rescue technology.
That's, you know, nothing to dowith blindness, but if I found
that there was a businessopportunity, it's.
It's something that would befun to chase after, so that that
would be my advice.
Just make sure you're lookingat the blindness field and
realizing that it's a smallmarket, and if you're okay with
(37:34):
you know, eventually getting adecent salary but not getting
rich, then and you love whatyou're doing and more power to
you.
Chris Maher (37:42):
Yeah, and, Mike, thank you for for sharing that
story.
I did not realize that you lostyour son back in 2016.
I'm so sorry, but thank you forsharing that, and I think I
think that's a little bitadjacent to, or or part of,
emergency communication, and Ithink that is something that
that is, we're lacking as itrelates to the disability
community.
You look at some of the naturaldisasters that have happened
(38:05):
and but, yeah, so, but, thankyou, and that's terrific advice
for for our listeners.
And so, as we wrap up here,Mike, how can people connect
with you and learn more aboutthe work that you're doing?
Mike May (38:16):
Well, probably the most central place is to go to
crashingthrough.
com.
That came out of thebest-selling book that was about
me in 2007.
Through crashingthrough.
com, I have a podcast thatfocuses on travel and draws on
(38:36):
the history of my recordings andjournals from back to the 70s
to the present.
I do once a month, and sothat's called "The People Make
The Places.
That'd be a couple of places tofind more.
Of course, you can learn a lotmore about APH at APH.
org, and I'll be involved insome of their different projects
(38:59):
.
Kelvin Crosby (38:59):
And then if you want to find them on the socials
, how do they find you on thesocials?
Could you have your own little?
Mike May (39:06):
I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook.
Not much on it.
I mean, I have accounts onInstagram and TikTok, but I hate
to open up those apps becauseall of a sudden I get stuck.
Oh God, how do I get out ofhere?
Kelvin Crosby (39:23):
Yeah, they're not accessible.
I mean your wife and I we raninto that problem because your
wife is a big influencer, but wewon't go down that path.
Chris Maher (39:36):
Well, we'll put all those links in the show notes.
And so Mike May, in my mind,the most interesting man in the
world.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us and sharing
your story and your insights.
It's just been such a pleasureand you are the best, my friend,
and hopefully we'll have youback again soon to talk some
more.
Mike May (39:55):
Yeah, thanks, Chris, Kelvin.
You know everybody is reallyfascinating if you get a chance
to get to know them.
So I appreciate the time todayand great talking with you guys.
Look forward to seeing you atthe next conferences.
Kelvin Crosby (40:09):
Now it wraps up Invest in Inaccessibility.
Go live beyond your challengeand we'll see you in two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
(40:32):
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
(40:54):
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all, by Investing inAccessibility.
Welcome to Investing in Accessibility, a
Samaritan Partners podcast.
We're not waiting for change,we're investing in it.
Join us as we speak withentrepreneurs and thought
leaders that are focused oncreating a more accessible world
.
(00:30):
Hey, so good to see you, eventhough I can't see you.
It's another beautiful day inthe neighborhood and I'm so
excited that you're here atInvesting in Accessibility.
My name is Kelvin Crosby andhere is my co-host, Chris Maher.
How you doing, man?
Chris Maher (00:48):
Good Kelvin, I'm much better now that I'm here
with you and seeing you and sothings are good, my friend.
I'm the only person on today'sshow that can see.
Kelvin Crosby (00:56):
Yeah, but the thing is, the guest that we have
today, he's a once upon a timepotentially was a spy, but he he
was never able to tell us thetruth because he's probably
under one of the top secretprotocols, whatever you know.
And so I'm excited abouttoday's guest.
Chris Maher (01:15):
I'm really excited.
Our guest today, I think hesurpasses the Dos Equis beerman
of being the most interestingman in the world, for sure.
Kelvin Crosby (01:24):
So I'm excited'm excited.
Well, maybe we flip it around alittle bit.
Let me introduce our guest.
Mike May.
Welcome to the Investing inAccessibility podcast man.
Mike May (01:34):
Yeah, nice to be here, Mr.
Crosby.
Kelvin Crosby (01:38):
I'm excited that you're here and I tell you,
we're two blindies together.
We're trying to make life, youknow.
And I think what's awesome isyou and I have known each other
for quite a while and I'vealways been inspired by what
you've been able to accomplish.
And I still remember the firstGPS for blind people that you
(02:02):
were the main driver force ofdeveloping that.
I forget what the name of itwas.
It was the.
What was that GPS
Mike May (02:11):
The first ever one was at Arkenstone.
It was a map-only system calledAtlas Speaks and I still have a
version of it today and it'samazing because it's so
important when you're gettingaround if you know before you go
(02:32):
.
Kelvin Crosby (02:32):
I mean truly as visually impaired people, we've
got to know where we're goingbefore we get there.
I tell you, I'm not sure wherewe're going at the moment, so
I'm going to hand it back overto Chris.
That way we're going in theright direction.
Chris Maher (02:48):
I could listen to you two gentlemen talk all day.
So, yeah, we're super excitedto have Mike May with us today.
Mike is part entrepreneur, partevangelist, part navigation
tech advisor, Paralympicathlete, we think was a spy at
some point or worked for a spyagency and, ultimately, one of
the best all around good peoplein our world today.
(03:09):
And, Mike, so good to see you.
You've been, I met you shortlyafter I launched Samaritan
Partners.
I met you at the firstconference I went to, which was
I think it was M- Enabling inlike the fall of 2023.
And you were so nice and kindand generous in that first
meeting and said, hey, here's mycard, and if you ever need
anything, let me know.
(03:30):
And then I've proceeded to seeyou at every single event I've
ever been to since then.
Mike May (03:36):
You're everywhere.
Chris Maher (03:37):
No, you are.
You are, like I don't know whenyou sleep.
Mike May (03:41):
That's why we run into each other.
We're both everywhere.
Chris Maher (03:47):
Yeah, well it's so great to have you here today.
Welcome.
Yeah, it's great to be here and, Kelvin, I've got to say that
when I and we'll get to this atsome point.
But I have a little bit ofvision and one of the most
exciting things to me abouthaving some vision are bright
colors and bright lights.
So I always love the fact thatat conferences I know when
(04:11):
you're around, because here youcome cruising by with a See Me
Cane, which is high contrast,it's high visibility and I can
see you, you know, 10, 20 yardsaway.
Kelvin Crosby (04:25):
Yeah, well, I mean, I'll never forget you
pulling me, like hey, yo you.
And you didn't know who I was,but you're like I see that, and
then you're like, now I know whoit is.
Mike May (04:39):
Well, yeah, because somebody else might have a See
Me Cane.
So I don't want to immediatelysay Kelvin, I just know that
it's a See Me and I need tocheck it out because it's.
You know, it's one of thechallenges when you're blind is
people identification.
You're at a conference, youknow there's lots of people you
know, but unless you hear thevoice, or you hear them calling
(05:02):
out their dog's name, you don'tknow who's there.
And so I've really enjoyed thefact that I can always find you
Kelvin Crosby (05:14):
Yep, yep, it's always interesting.
I mean we're getting a littleoff track today, but when we get
into this world, I mean likeI'm starting to get into some
new groups and I'm like allright, buddies, like you got to
tell me who you are every singletime, whether or not I
understand your voice or not,like because I'm also deaf, so
(05:36):
don't come at me with hey yo,how you doing?
I'm like are you Bob?
Are you Jim?
I mean I have no idea.
Mike May (05:48):
Yeah, he's a guessing game.
Kelvin Crosby (05:50):
Yep, exactly, exactly.
So, all right, well, we'regoing to hand it back over to
Chris so that we get back ontrack.
Chris Maher (06:00):
Thank you, Kelvin, and it's.
I'm feeling a little insecureon today's podcast episode
because I'm with two guys thatare so technologically advanced.
Before we, before we startedrecording, you two were going
through a whole bunch oftechnical stuff that that I
didn't understand half of whatyou were talking about.
We had a little technicalglitch to get started here and,
(06:22):
as everybody knows, all of ourlisteners, Kelvin is the
technical brains behind thisoperation.
I show up and we do theepisodes and then I write a
little copy and post on LinkedIn, but but Kelvin handles
everything in the backend.
And and, Mike, when I see you atconferences, you've always got
something new that you'retesting out, some sort of
(06:42):
assistive technology or device.
Yeah, so I'm a bit of a Ludditeon today's show and feeling a
bit insecure.
But, Mike, let's start from thebeginning, and your background
and your lived experience, Ithink, has informed so much of
what you have done in yourprofessional career from not
being born blind, as far as Ican remember, and had an
(07:06):
accident when you were a youngchild, and then how your parents
raised you and then you becamethis amazing Olympic athlete,
paralympic athlete, and then anentrepreneur, and now you're,
you know, consulting andadvising large corporates as
well as startups.
And then in in there you workedfor the CIA.
So, can you start from thebeginning and kind of take us
(07:26):
through the arc of that and howyour, how your lived experience
has really informed theprogression of your career?
Mike May (07:33):
Sure, I should mention for anybody who knows me and
has heard my voice before you'llnotice a bit of a speech
impediment due to some impact onmy mouth and my throat from
cancer that I had in 2016 withchemo and radiation, and it's
(07:57):
super annoying, but it's what itis.
So, just if you're hearing that, I'm just giving you a heads up
.
So you know I can trace a lotof my approach to the world back
to my mother.
She was an amazing person and ahero and the one that really
inspired my curiosity.
(08:17):
I went blind, totally blind,from a chemical explosion when I
was three and then I had a stemcell and cornea transplant in
2000, which gave me some lowvision.
So it was pretty amazing tohave 43 years of total blindness
(08:38):
and then, all of a sudden, Icould see and it was
overwhelming, it was fascinating, it was a lot of things, but it
gave me some useful vision.
But in a lot of other ways Ihad to learn to rely on my
blindness skills.
So braille, cane, dog and notto rely on the vision for any
(09:03):
kind of mobility stuff.
So that was just a learningprocess, but those are two key
milestones in my life.
And, Chris, you mentioned theCIA.
I was in graduate school inWashington DC and living with a
bunch of guys and the CIA wasrecruiting at the Johns Hopkins
School of Advanced InternationalStudies, where we were on
(09:27):
DuPont Circle, and they sort ofjoked about applying for the CIA
because it was not exactly acool thing to do back then and I
thought, wow, I bet they'venever had a blind person work
for them.
So I interviewed and it took awhile, but one thing led to
another and they hired me and Iworked out at their main
(09:50):
headquarters in McLean, Virginia, as a political risk analyst on
Africa.
Chris Maher (09:58):
Wow, how long did you do that for Mike?
Mike May (10:02):
It was a bit over a year, it was during graduate
school, it was part-time and youknow, when I graduated it was
sort of a decision.
Do I stay and work for thegovernment?
Which seemed, I mean, it wasinteresting the CIA and all that
(10:22):
but it is still governmentbureaucracy and that really
wasn't my cup of tea.
So I went back out toCalifornia and ended up working
for a bank and then a defensecontractor.
And then I got into theentrepreneurial world in 1984
(10:42):
with some buddies from thatdefense contractor and, being
music lovers, we always wereinterested in how could you have
a music source that wasn'tdamaging the medium, which would
be vinyl.
And so we came up, after fouryears and $7 million of venture
(11:06):
capital, the world's first laserturntable called the Phenal
Turntable, laser Turntable.
And that was a fascinatingexperience because at the time
the CD had not started, it wasjust being researched and
developed between '84 and '88.
(11:27):
It went from an idea to anactual product and eventually it
blew us out of the water.
But in the process, you know,we developed this amazing device
that played standard vinylrecords with a laser instead of
a needle.
It's when I met Stevie Wonder,because my partner said, you
(11:53):
know we got to raise some moneyhere.
I want you to go find GordonGetty, the oil tycoon and Stevie
Wonder.
And it took me about two yearsbefore I got to Stevie Wonder.
It wasn't easy, but that'swhere I first met him and that
was my first startup and Irealized that was really more my
(12:14):
calling and than working for abank or a government agency.
Chris Maher (12:20):
I told you listeners, we're talking to the
most interesting man in theworld and we're just getting
started.
Mike, how long after that didyou found the Sendero Group?
Mike May (12:31):
In the 90s the first kind of accessible computer
stuff started happening.
We went from the VersaBrailleand Apple QE and some of that
stuff.
And so after I went toArkenstone where we had the
first GPS and map products, theydecided that GPS was not ready
(12:55):
for primetime and so theycanceled the GPS product.
And I said, okay, how about ifI take it, if you spin it off
(13:25):
and you know raising money, andalmost running out of money and
you know being the last one onthe payroll that got paid and
all the growing pains of astartup.
Kelvin Crosby (13:36):
Yep, yep.
I mean I would love to ask youthis question.
When the vinyl laser thing wentdown and you had that failure,
like how did that prepare you tobe able to launch Sendero Group
and really prepare yourself tobuild that?
Mike May (13:56):
Well, it probably went down the way that it was meant
to go because of the CD comingonto the scene.
There's nothing we could havedone differently to make it work
.
But we did have to give up alot of control and ownership of
the company, as we raised.
$7 million back in 1984 was alot of money, and so we had to
(14:19):
give away a lot of the company,and because we did that, our
vultures, I mean venturecapitalists they booted us out
and so that was.
You know that's how that endedup coming down.
And eventually they sold it offand the laser turntable still
(14:42):
exists, owned by a Japanesecompany.
So it wasn't a total bust, butit was for us, and at that point
my buddy, Rob and I, both wentoff and started some other
things and, you know, that thingled to another thing led to
another thing.
Chris Maher (14:59):
Yeah, and Mike, in parallel to that you, you were
world-class skier and, and Ibelieve you stood on the podium
at the 1984 Paralympics.
Is that correct?
Mike May (15:13):
Yeah, the '84 was the, well the Paralympics kind of
evolved.
It used to be called the WorldWinter Games and the goal was to
be in more parity with theregular Olympics, and that
didn't really happen until '88.
But there was a worldcompetition in '82 in
(15:37):
Switzerland and then '84, and Iwas on the podium on both of
those events.
And then we went from, my guideand I went down to Sarajevo to
the regular Olympics, becausethat's when they had the first
demo of disabled skiers at theOlympics and they didn't include
blind people.
(15:57):
So we kind of crashed the partyand ended up skiing at the
Sarajevo Olympics on MountJahorina and we were the first
ever to be in the Paralympics,albeit uninvited.
Kelvin Crosby (16:14):
Well, I'm just fascinated.
I've known Mike for a long time, but I've never heard his whole
story.
Chris Maher (16:21):
Yeah, and and Mike, as a an elite athlete while
you're, you were doing thatwhile you were getting into
entrepreneurship and itoverlapped for a period of time
and then you continued with yourentrepreneurial journey.
Were there skills, experiencesfrom being an athlete or lessons
from being an elite athletethat helped you transition to
(16:44):
that entrepreneurship or madeyou a better entrepreneur?
Mike May (16:48):
Well, it's all interconnected in terms of your
approach to life, and I thinkfor blind people, we always have
to be looking at alternativetools and techniques.
I mean, that's the bread andbutter of what we do, how we
operate.
And then you also have to havea lot of personal qualities the
fortitude to deal with let'scall it misguided attitudes in
(17:13):
the general world, and so whenyou're doing a startup, you're
always thinking of alternativetools and techniques.
How can I raise money?
How can I market?
Is this really a product that'sviable?
You might have to pivot theproduct.
You start in one place and thenyou move to another.
(17:36):
So there's a lot of that samekind of thing that I'd say I
started learning to be adaptablewhen I was three years old.
So on the playground, I had tobe adaptable, figure out.
I could either stay in thestudy room or I could be out on
the playground doing sports, andso I had to figure out what's a
(17:59):
different way to play football,to play baseball.
So I think my whole life wasset up to be an entrepreneur
because I was having to learn tobe entrepreneurial at an early
age.
Chris Maher (18:12):
I love that.
I have a few mottos that I'lljust mention that kind of govern
my life, and one is "the betteryou get around, the better you
engage in life.
" So that really relates toorientation and mobility
training.
It relates to sports, becauseif you learn to run, if you
(18:36):
learn to have good spatialperception, you develop your
ability to get around, and thenthat in turn is useful.
If you're going to go toconferences, you're going to go
to meetings, if you're going togo out to lunch, you don't want
to be the blind guy who's alwaysfollowing and somebody else
makes the decisions of where doI go to lunch?
(18:58):
How do we get there?
I want to be the guy leadingthe way.
And then I also developed, withthe GPS, a motto was "the power
of getting un-lost.
" So one of the issues when youcan't see is if you get lost and
then you're stuck, then it's,you know, you're not going to
want to do it again.
(19:18):
So I realized that, hey, if Ihave different skills and
technology for getting out of apickle, getting un-lost, then I
have so much more options in theworld to explore.
And then there's another onewhich is fundamental, which is
(19:39):
"there's always a way", andthat's about finding workarounds
.
If you believe there's a way todo stuff, you will figure it
out, or you may figure out thereis no way, so I've got to drop
this thing and do something else.
But if you go into it figuringthere's always a way, I think it
(19:59):
helps you not give up onfinding those alternative tools
and techniques.
Kelvin Crosby (20:06):
I mean, as you're saying those things it's just
like it's so true.
Like as I was developing theSee Me Cane, like those.
It's like the minute I startedtesting it and the minute I
started doing things and theminute I started realizing
getting un- lost, be able tofind your way, being able to
have that confidence.
(20:26):
I mean that's not easy to get,but you do it over and over and
over again.
I mean, I tell people I'm oneof the best pole dancers in the
world.
I pole dance at least fivetimes a day.
You know, and I said you know,have you ever had a lap dance by
a fire hydrant?
They're not pleasant but they'requite shocking and I mean, why
(20:50):
do they put fire hydrants in themiddle of the sidewalk?
I still don't understand thatone.
But I mean, I think about itand it's like the way you push
through and and I think that'sso true, so true.
Chris Maher (21:08):
Mike, as you said these are life lessons for
everybody.
And, and if I was gonna try tosummarize it, I think it's about
problem solving.
You know, as you said, as athree-year-old you have to
become a great problem solver.
It's about being resilient andadaptable, right.
You've got to adapt.
And I think those three wordsare so critical for
(21:30):
entrepreneurship, especiallysomeone who is embarking on that
entrepreneurial journey for thefirst time right, they're a
first time founder, CEO or a COO.
.
It is a rollercoaster of a rideand there are lots of ups and
downs, and if you're notadapting and being resilient and
problem solving, cause, it'snot going to go exactly how you
(21:51):
planned it,.
Mike May (21:52):
It is not.
You can bet on that.
Chris Maher (21:56):
And so now after what?
18, 19 years, you leave Senderoand then you embark on this.
I don't want to call it asecond career, but this next
chapter where you're living intwo, at least from my
perspective, you're you'reliving in two worlds very
successfully and effectively,where you're working with larger
(22:18):
companies, kind of more whatyou would call corporates or
enterprise, in advisory andconsulting roles, but you're
also doing a lot of advising andmentoring with startups.
And and along the way, again,you, as you said, you want to be
the leader, you want to be thefirst mover.
Every time I see you at aconference, you've got something
new that you're testing out andso can you speak to that
(22:41):
experience you've had in thelast what is it?
Six or seven years in this morekind of consulting and advisory
role that you've been doing,fully immersed in disability and
accessibility?
Mike May (22:55):
When we wrapped up Sendero, and it was really Jim
Fruchterman from Arkenstone,when I was asking him about what
do you think, should I do this?
Should I do that?
He said declare victory andmove on.
Oh, okay, yeah, I guess I did apretty good job.
You know, the GPS is nowaffordable.
It's ubiquitous.
(23:16):
Blind people are using it.
They have many differentoptions, different brands, so I
started that thing.
So I declared victory and movedon.
Question was, what do I move onto?
And so the first opportunitythat came along was the CEO of
the Seattle Lighthouse for theBlind, which I did in 2017.
(23:37):
And then I went from there toWichita, Kansas, and joined
Envision, which is one of thebigger agencies providing
services to the blind, to startup a new thing they call the
Workforce Innovation Center, andI did that for about three
(23:58):
years.
And then I decided you know,with sort of COVID time, I can
work from anywhere and I had myfill of Wichita, which I really
liked, but it's a differentculture, different world than
you know my time in Californiaand Oregon and the West Coast.
So I looked at where to move toand I found near Tahoe so I
(24:31):
could be near skiing and friendsand family, and I moved to Reno
.
And then at that point, also inthat period of time, when I went
from Envision to Good Maps.
They were founded in March of2019.
And I went to the first meetingthe week that they announced
Good Maps and I said, oh wow, Ithink I'd like to get back into
(24:52):
the navigation business.
You know, maybe there's a fitfor me.
And I said, you know, if theposition comes up that makes
sense for me, let me know.
And they said we'll make one.
Chris Maher (25:04):
They're very smart people, Mike.
Mike May (25:07):
They did that and I joined Good Maps for three years
or so and then I went over toAPH the parent organization of
Good Maps consulting half time.
And that really was great froma number of aspects.
One was they gave me a moregeneral responsibility, not just
(25:31):
navigation, but coming up witha new white cane, working on
some of their tactical mapproducts.
The Monarch was just coming out, the tactile display, full-page
Braille display.
So that allowed me to work ontheir whole range of products,
of which they have over 700, anda lot of them are in the
(25:56):
navigation mobility kind ofarena.
And then I had half time to doother stuff.
And then that really circled meback to my startup days and
looking at the new technologythat was coming out, like the
one-court device for sports andsmart glasses and other indoor
(26:22):
navigation technology.
All this stuff was happeningand I just sort of put myself
out there.
If you want my two cents, I'llgive it to you.
Chris Maher (26:31):
I love it.
And everyone knows that.
You're so generous with yourtime and your feedback.
And with your experience, thatfeedback is incredibly valuable
for these early stage companies.
To take one little quick stepback, so APH, American Printing
House, Mike, I always thoughtyou started there first and then
you started working with GoodMaps when that got spun out, but
(26:53):
it was actually the opposite.
You started with Good Maps,which was a spin out, and then
that led you to working with theparent company.
That's really interesting.
So let's dig into the earlystage startup, innovation,
assistive tech.
What are the things that you'vebeen seeing recently that
really get you excited, whetherthat's for the blind, low vision
(27:14):
community or other areas of thedisability community?
Mike May (27:19):
Well, you know, I'm sure you go through the same
thought process, Chris.
When you're innovating, youthink of 10 things and maybe one
of them ends up resonating, andthere's so many things that can
knock a product out of thewater.
One of the things in thenavigation field that, and I
think it really applies to alladaptive technology, the more
(27:41):
that product can bedisability-wide.
So let's say, not just blind,it needs to be blind, low vision
, other disabilities and theholy grail is it's also useful
to sighted people.
So your market goes from 1% ofthe population, 2%, 5%, all of a
(28:13):
sudden to 100% and that's theultimate goal.
So I was always benchmarkingproducts in terms of their
applicability to a larger market.
And I think that's what's coolabout something like the smart
glasses, because when they'respecialized for a blind person,
those glasses and they don'tnecessarily look great, but they
function great.
You know those are going to be$2,000 to $2,500.
(28:35):
You get the version that worksfor sighted people.
They look great.
Maybe they don't have all thespecialized features, but oh, by
the way, they cost $299.
So it's really fascinating tofollow that trajectory.
Chris Maher (28:53):
Yeah, I think you're spot on about that in
terms of innovation.
I think that's, you know we wedid a an episode previously
about like a lifestyle businessversus an exit business.
And I think when theapplicability is beyond blind,
low vision to the broaderdisability community and then to
the broader general population,that's where you really start
(29:14):
to have an opportunity not onlyto scale the social impact that
you can deliver but how you canreally scale commercially,
right, revenue- wise.
And that's not to say thatcompanies that have a more
narrow focus aren't supervaluable.
For me as a venture investor,they may not be venture worthy
(29:36):
because that market may be toonarrow.
Like Kelvin and I have talkedin the podcast about his
business, the See Me Cane, whichhe's got a bit of a hybrid
for-profit, nonprofit modelthere that is not venture worthy
, but that's not to say thatit's not a really important
business that is solving areally important problem for
people.
And so, Mike, I think you hitthe nail on the head.
I think that's really goodadvice for an early stage
(29:59):
entrepreneur to be thinkingabout, especially in this
assistive tech and disabilitysector.
You may start off building fora very specific problem for a
very specific population, butlonger term can it be a much
broader application?
I think it's super advice.
And so what else are you seeingout there?
So smart glasses?
Absolutely.
(30:23):
And Mike, you know the folks atBe my Eyes very well, and we're
investors in them.
But integrating Be my Eyes intothose Meta smart glasses is a
wonderful integration andapplication or example what you
just said.
But is there anything else outthere?
Are there other applications ofsmart glasses?
Or?
I know navigation is a reallytough one to crack and I think
(30:45):
Good Maps is doing an amazingjob there.
But what else are you seeingout there that gets you excited,
whether it's for blind, lowvision or just kind of in
general?
Mike May (30:54):
Well, I should mention one other component of the
evolution of technology iscompetition.
And people might thinkautomatically that competition
is a bad thing.
For me, with GPS, it was areally good thing because when I
started Sendero in '99, therewas nobody else doing GPS for
(31:18):
the blind.
And once I started getting sometraction, then other people
took notice - HumanWare,Freedom Scientific - and they
said oh wow, and they madeproducts.
And when they made products Isold more.
So it legitimized a new marketarea that I was having a hard
(31:45):
time legitimizing.
Everybody just said well,that's Mike May on his soapbox.
Chris Maher (31:47):
It's a great point.
Like, as entrepreneurs, weshould not be afraid of
competition.
Competition, as you say, itvalidates the market, but it
also it helps to drive andaccelerate innovation, right,
because it's a race against timewhen you've got other
competitors.
I think that's a really goodpoint.
Mike May (32:05):
And people can use alternatives.
There's no, you know, there'slike indoor navigation.
I mean GoodMaps, it's probablymapped.
Let's say all the indoornavigation companies GoodMaps,
Waymap Next, some of the otherones they probably mapped 0.01%
(32:25):
of the buildings in the world.
So that tells you there's over99% still left to map and so
there's plenty of space.
But they run into the sameproblem I did with GPS in the
beginning, which was people justthought it was kind of a
sideline and didn't help allthat many people, when in fact
(32:47):
it does, and it just takes somemomentum to get past that
initial stage.
I'm really intrigued by Glide,the robot cane.
Chris Maher (33:00):
Oh, Amos Miller and Glidance?
Mike May (33:02):
Yeah, yeah.
The Glide is, you know, I wasfriends with Amos because he was
doing Soundscape before that,so he was, you know, one of the
better GPS products.
And so when you started talkingabout launching this company, I
just said, oh man, that I'm notsure.
(33:22):
That seems like kind of a weakidea.
But I also said, you know, Ialso thought the iPhone was a
really bad idea.
I thought a touch screen withnothing tactile on it.
Why would a blind person likethat?
And I'm happy to say I wastotally wrong.
(33:44):
People embraced it.
Look where we are today.
Chris Maher (33:48):
So, Mike, with Glidance, and they're leveraging
, I think, a decent amount of AIin their software and they'll
leverage it more and more goingforward.
Can you speak to AI and kind ofyour thoughts on kind of AI
today versus AI in the futureand kind of the good, the bad,
what you're excited about, whatyou're maybe a little
apprehensive about?
Mike May (34:08):
Yeah, I mean, I'm always a fan of realizing that
nothing is perfect.
The GPS is still not perfect.
It was less perfect when westarted.
Braille isn't perfect.
You know, I used to get you knowBraille translation when it was
first being done.
You know it wasn't all rightand I just said you know, some
(34:29):
Braille is better than noBraille.
So I think the same thing withAI.
Yeah, it's going to hallucinate, okay.
So what do I do as a user or asa developer to work around that,
to recognize that?
Yeah, it will get more accuratein the future.
But what about now?
And I mean I see stuff from myfriends who are much more into
(34:53):
AI than I am and I'm just myapproach right now is I'm going
to learn from them.
I'm going to get gadgets as asI can to test them and see if I
can get feedback.
But I think we got a lot ofcool things going on and I have
the.
I've had many pairs of smartglasses back to the first
(35:18):
Bluetooth Oakley glasses in 2010, 2008.
And you know, I have theEnvision and I'm looking forward
to the Echo Vision glasses.
I think they're very cool.
That's a case where they'respecializing in the blindness
market and they're competingwith a mainstream product.
(35:38):
So you know they have theirhands full, but I think their AI
is going to be something thatmaybe separates it in the way
that they customize it more forblind people and blind
applications.
Chris Maher (35:52):
At some point, Kelvin, we're going to have Mike
back and we're going to diginto your business, because I
know Mike has given you somegreat feedback over the years.
But, Mike, before we wrap up andask you to tell people how they
can get in touch with you andlearn more about your work, I
think a bunch of our listenersare early stage entrepreneurs,
you know, running startups inthe assistive tech and
(36:14):
disability space.
You've given some really goodadvice and some insights during
this conversation, but any finalwords for them in terms of tips
as they embark on thisentrepreneurial journey?
Mike May (36:28):
Well, I think you have to weigh your passion against
the business value of things, sodon't be afraid to look
mainstream and find outsomething that isn't blindness
specific.
One of my passion areas thatI've never quite followed
through with, but I still keepdipping a toe in the water, is
(36:51):
search and rescue, and this goesback to my son being killed in
an avalanche in 2016 and knowingthat there's some technology
that could have helped infinding him, if not preventing
that from happening, and so I'mvery, very interested in search
(37:11):
and rescue technology.
That's, you know, nothing to dowith blindness, but if I found
that there was a businessopportunity, it's.
It's something that would befun to chase after, so that that
would be my advice.
Just make sure you're lookingat the blindness field and
realizing that it's a smallmarket, and if you're okay with
(37:34):
you know, eventually getting adecent salary but not getting
rich, then and you love whatyou're doing and more power to
you.
Chris Maher (37:42):
Yeah, and, Mike, thank you for for sharing that
story.
I did not realize that you lostyour son back in 2016.
I'm so sorry, but thank you forsharing that, and I think I
think that's a little bitadjacent to, or or part of,
emergency communication, and Ithink that is something that
that is, we're lacking as itrelates to the disability
community.
You look at some of the naturaldisasters that have happened
(38:05):
and but, yeah, so, but, thankyou, and that's terrific advice
for for our listeners.
And so, as we wrap up here,Mike, how can people connect
with you and learn more aboutthe work that you're doing?
Mike May (38:16):
Well, probably the most central place is to go to
crashingthrough.
com.
That came out of thebest-selling book that was about
me in 2007.
Through crashingthrough.
com, I have a podcast thatfocuses on travel and draws on
(38:36):
the history of my recordings andjournals from back to the 70s
to the present.
I do once a month, and sothat's called "The People Make
The Places.
That'd be a couple of places tofind more.
Of course, you can learn a lotmore about APH at APH.
org, and I'll be involved insome of their different projects
(38:59):
.
Kelvin Crosby (38:59):
And then if you want to find them on the socials
, how do they find you on thesocials?
Could you have your own little?
Mike May (39:06):
I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook.
Not much on it.
I mean, I have accounts onInstagram and TikTok, but I hate
to open up those apps becauseall of a sudden I get stuck.
Oh God, how do I get out ofhere?
Kelvin Crosby (39:23):
Yeah, they're not accessible.
I mean your wife and I we raninto that problem because your
wife is a big influencer, but wewon't go down that path.
Chris Maher (39:36):
Well, we'll put all those links in the show notes.
And so Mike May, in my mind,the most interesting man in the
world.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us and sharing
your story and your insights.
It's just been such a pleasureand you are the best, my friend,
and hopefully we'll have youback again soon to talk some
more.
Mike May (39:55):
Yeah, thanks, Chris, Kelvin.
You know everybody is reallyfascinating if you get a chance
to get to know them.
So I appreciate the time todayand great talking with you guys.
Look forward to seeing you atthe next conferences.
Kelvin Crosby (40:09):
Now it wraps up Invest in Inaccessibility.
Go live beyond your challengeand we'll see you in two weeks.
Thank you for listening toInvesting in Accessibility, a
(40:32):
Samaritan Partners podcast wherewe invest in change for
accessibility, not wait forchange.
If you want to follow us, youcan find us on YouTube or
LinkedIn at @Samaritan Partners.
If you would like to invest inSamaritan Partners, email chris
at chris@samaritanpartners.
com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, go to www.
samaritanpartners.
com.
(40:54):
You can take the first step ininvesting in change by giving us
five stars and sharing thispodcast with everybody that you
know, so we can spread the word,so that we can give access to
all, by Investing inAccessibility.
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