July 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Jesse Aylen shares his hot takes on "CONENT," ghostwriter matchmaking, book club etiquette, and the future of AI.
Jesse Aylen is an editorial, communications, and (the dreaded word!) content consultant based in New York. He has worked across the publishing and media industries, including a global trade publishing house, a data-driven startup publisher, and on a consulting basis with ghostwriting companies, content marketing companies, and a non-partisan think tank. Recently, he interviewed debut author Zach Williams about his short story collection, Beautiful Days, for BOMB Magazine.
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Books & authors mentioned on this episode:
Health & Safety by Emily Witt (memoir)
Hold Still by Sally Mann (memoir with photographs)
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Folllow the show on instagram @itsallwritepod.
Email us at itsallwritepod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesse (00:00):
In a world where culture gets lazy and good enough is
good enough.
What does that do to high art?.
We need those critical voicesmm-hmm.
Meryl (00:09):
Who are not afraid to offend.
Jesse (00:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who aren't afraid to speaktruth to power, and be willing
to call things out, where Ithink a lot of people are a
little more.
Trepidatious now.
Ariana (00:24):
Hi, I'm Ariana McLean.
Meryl (00:26):
I'm Meryl Branch McTiernan.
Ariana (00:28):
You're listening to It's All Right.
Jesse (00:29):
The podcast
Meryl (00:30):
about
Ariana (00:30):
the writing life and those who live it.
Meryl (00:33):
Today we're joined by my friend Jesse Alan, who's an
editorial communications and thedreaded word content consultant
based in New York.
He has worked across thepublishing and media industries,
including a global tradepublishing house, A data-driven
startup publisher, and on aconsulting basis with
ghostwriting companies, contentmarketing companies, and a
(00:53):
nonpartisan think tank.
Hi, Jesse.
Thanks for being here.
Hello.
Jesse (00:56):
Hello.
Thank you both for having me.
I'm thrilled to be here.
Meryl (00:59):
we wanted to talk about the dreaded word
Jesse (01:01):
Content.
Content.
Content.
Ariana (01:04):
What do you think about that?
Jesse (01:06):
So here's the thing I know from listening to your
previous episodes, that you bothhave feelings about content.
Yes.
And I they are entirely valid,believe me.
I'm partially in agreement withyou on that.
I will say I think that in termsof content.
I think of it in a broadumbrella kind of term where
content can be so many differentthings.
It can be different types ofwritten content.
It can be, different types ofmedia content.
(01:27):
So I think really that the keyis to think about the
accessibility of it and the waythat like different people can
view content in ways to makethem part of the publishing or
media ecosystem.
Agree with you, Meryl, thatwriting is an art and art should
be the goal ultimately, but Ithink of art and content as
being, to your earlier point,very separate things.
Ariana (01:46):
So when you're working let's say with an artist, a
writer, are you then consultingthem on how to create content
for their platforms?
Jesse (01:56):
I would say really it's less about their platforms, it's
more about for individualclients I've worked to get their
voice out.
And, really figure out what theyshould sound like on the page.
For example, for the think tankthat I've worked for, it's about
taking very high level writingfrom, policy wonks, economic
experts, people who are sosteeped in this field, but then
you're writing for the C-suite.
So it has to be a verydigestible, very, message
(02:18):
forward kind of approach.
And for what I do, it's, in, inthat case, I mean that style of
content is taking this very kindof high level economic, wonky
language and then boiling itdown to a point where it's
accessible, to like a C-suiteperson can take that and find a
course of action or kind offamiliarize themselves with the
challenges of that particularlandscape.
So it's about, in that way beinga bit of a translator, a bit of
(02:40):
a conduit between the economicside and then the sort of action
minded okay, what do I do withthis info C-Suite side.
Meryl (02:48):
How did the thinkers that have written the initial content
or piece, how do they react toyour trying to get it?
Jesse (02:55):
I love that question.
At first, my, my firstassignment, I was so nervous, I
thought, oh no, I might editingtoo much.
Am I editing too little?
And i, It was actually on atrial basis where, the person I
was working with said, okay, forthe first one or two of these,
we're gonna go through you andI, and then I will transmit
things to the, teams, and thenthey'll give me their feedback.
(03:15):
We did that about twice, andthen I heard back from them.
We love this feedback.
It is so actionable.
It's so clear.
There's no ego in it.
And really, I realized like Iapproached it,'cause I come from
a book editing background aswell and I approach that work in
the same way as I've approachedany kind of editorial project,
which is you take someone andyou realize when they're giving
you their book, their report,their content.
(03:38):
it's a bit of the of a preciousbaby.
And you have to respect themessaging of that and to go,
okay, I'm not going to rip thisthing shreds.
I'm going to say here are gentleways of improvement.
Here are, compliment sandwiches.
This is working so well, maybeimprove this.
This is such a great way to endit.
That kind of thing.
And really, I found out that,and to my surprise, I could work
with people where, I'm not aneconomics expert, but I began to
(04:00):
understand where they werecoming from and then to treat
that with, the levity andrespected deserved, while also
refining the work to make sureit was clear and not, too wonky.
Ariana (04:11):
Yeah, that's a, I can imagine that's like a very
delicate balance.
Jesse (04:16):
It really can be.
Absolutely.
Ariana (04:17):
and also really needed.
'Cause right now we're seeingpeople just flocking to things
that sound good, that areuntrue.
We really wanna do on thepodcast because you have this
multifaceted experience andviewpoint on writing the writing
industry and all the sort oftangential industries.
(04:39):
Can you tell us maybe a briefjourney through your trajectory?
Jesse (04:43):
I would say I, my, my first entry was really, it
wasn't actually at a publisher.
I began at a talent agency.
I moved to New York and I wasdesperate for, any job.
I worked at a law firm at thetime, so that was a bit of, got
my early editorial chops, likereading people's affidavits
about why they were coming tothis country.
And I did that for a coupleyears and then I realized, okay,
this is, fine, but notultimately where my heart and
soul is leading me.
(05:04):
And I met an agent at the timewho said, oh, she was working at
a large agency and she said,there is an opening here, so if
you want to think about this.
You have some legal background,you have, you're familiar with
contracts, that kind of thing.
Come in and interview for it.
So I came in and I met the headbooks lawyer at the agency, and
within about half an hour, oneof the first questions he said,
okay, so you've been, a front ofoffice, you've dealt with
(05:26):
clients, you've dealt withattorneys, you've dealt with
judges, you've dealt with everyunder of the sun.
You can take pressure.
And I said.
Yeah.
I, 24, 20 5-year-old me is goingUhhuh.
Yeah, sure I can.
Yeah.
I got this.
And he said, good,'cause this,this is a great place, but there
are a lot of strongpersonalities here and you have
to be able to stand up foryourself and, we have to get
these deals done.
I said, okay.
(05:47):
Yeah.
So I got there and I got the joband it really, it was such an
interesting way to come into theindustry first, because it's all
about kind of sales, but it'sabout art.
Where you really you have agentsbuilding lists that matter to
them.
They wanna say something to theworld, and they want to have the
appropriate list to do that.
The right
Meryl (06:03):
authors, the right mix.
That is nice to hear that theydo actually
Jesse (06:07):
care about art.
Oh yeah.
Oh they care, they care aboutcommerce too, but they care
about art.
And I would say particularly,book people are some of my
favorite people.
They're really, literary agentswere fantastic.
They're thoughtful, they're,nuanced.
They read with care.
So I did that job for a fewyears.
I think I was there for fiveyears actually, and I read for
agents on the side, and Irealized, oh, like this industry
(06:29):
piques me.
I wanna know more.
I wanna learn more.
So I ended up going to apublishing course in Denver for
a summer and I took a month off.
It was a mini sabbatical.
I said, I'm gonna do this andpeople said, oh, there's the NYU
one.
I said I want nature.
Meryl (06:43):
Yeah.
Jesse (06:44):
I exactly.
I like I here all time.
I want some fresh air, somemountains, some hiking.
I walked in Denver.
I was the only person to walk inDenver.
Everybody drove cars, which Ithought was hilarious.
But I was there for a month andI realized, from doing all that,
we did editorial, marketing,publicity, every single piece of
it.
I came back and I gave notice.
I said
Meryl (07:03):
thanks for the time off.
Exactly.
Jesse (07:04):
This is lovely.
I finished out the year and theysaid, we wish you well.
This has been a wonderfulrelationship, but clearly you
wanna do other things.
I said, yeah, I do.
So within a month I landed atRandom House.
My boss was a publisher of animprint there, and really I was,
you know, the 30,000 foot viewof the industry where it was
really how do you run animprint?
How do you make decisions aboutcovers?
(07:25):
How do you make acquisitionsdecisions?
How do you look at your list andyour season spread overall and
say, we have a little bit ofeverything, we're striking all
the right notes, we're speakingto current events and what
matters in the world, but alsowhat matters in, fiction
translation.
What is popular in Korea thatmaybe we should consider here?
It was really kind of a way toget that global view and a
(07:45):
fascinating, amazing place to doit too.
One of my favorite things aboutthat piece of the industry is
the acquisition side, where youhave to go into a room and
you're gonna have to defend whatyou believe in.
You're gonna have to say, oh,there's this debut author.
I love their work.
Here's why they matter.
Here's why they matter for ourlist.
Here's why they should be here.
This is the right home for them.
in that way it really it openedmy eyes, I would say to how the
(08:07):
sausage is made.
Meryl (08:08):
Yeah, I was wondering about that.
Since you are a creative writeras well, have you found ever
that the market has drifted intoyour psyche as you're writing?
Do you ever worry about that?
Jesse (08:18):
I can't say that I do.
And that, I either I don't know,for better or worse, I would say
I'm aware of the market, but Ialso know that, when I sit down
to write something, when I havethe blank page staring at me, it
has to be its own authenticform.
It has to be, not necessarily, Iknow, for example, romantacy is
hugely popular now.
I think if you had a gun to myhead, I don't know if I could
(08:38):
write romantacy, I would go, doI have to?
Is that gun loaded?
Okay.
Ariana (08:44):
I literally had this conversation yesterday on the
train with my friend there waslike what is it?
A court of Thorn and rose'sposter
Jesse (08:50):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (08:50):
on the subway.
Jesse (08:50):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (08:50):
and
Jesse (08:50):
uh.
Ariana (08:50):
And, and she's oh, what's that?
And I told her and then she'soh, you should write romantacy,
then you can make money.
And I was like, I
Meryl (08:56):
money.
Ariana (08:57):
I, I can't write that.
That's not what I write.
Jesse (09:01):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think there, I think thatevery writer should be, and this
is just, my one personperspective, you should be aware
of the marketplace, but youshouldn't let it influence your
authentic vision of what youwant to do.
Because I think really, that oldadage of kind of, you make what
you wanna make and then yourpeople find you, I think is
true.
Where there, I think chasingtrends and, we've seen, book
tok, TikTok, all this stuff,it's fantastic for visibility.
(09:24):
It's fantastic for getting theword out about things, but I
think taking it too seriously,and again, just in my own
opinion, can be damaging tosomeone's creative output.
Meryl (09:32):
And there's such a lag time between getting an agent
and selling a book to the bookactually coming out.
So if you try to chasesomething, you're gonna
Jesse (09:39):
be,
Ariana (09:39):
you're already behind.
Meryl (09:41):
behind.
Yeah.
Jesse and I met through ghostwriting.
So I was ghostwriting for awhile.
That's something I stumbled uponwhen I was in LA.
And I worked on quite a fewprojects.
I had to stop doing it duringgrad school because I felt that
I really was dedicating thattime to work on my own stuff and
(10:04):
to have other people's books inmy head wasn't helpful for that.
But during a period I guess itwas probably around eight years
ago, I went to this one brownpaper bag lunch for, one of the
ghost writing companies.
And Jesse and I met, I don'tknow, did we meet the elevator
or something?
Jesse (10:22):
I, probably my way lq.
I was gonna say l say exactly.
I, I have a distinctive memoryof us sitting around that table,
and zeroing in on you andthinking, I wanna know you
better.
Yeah.
And I think that we just struckup a conversation on the way
back down and then, we, I assumeat that time we were probably on
facebook, right?
Meryl (10:38):
Yeah.
yeah
Jesse (10:38):
bet we facebook.
Meryl (10:40):
So yeah.
So then we've just been friendsand, we've recommended each
other for some projects.
Yeah, We we never looked back.
Never looked back.
Jesse (10:46):
Mm-hmm.
Meryl (10:47):
So I'd love to talk a little bit about how you got
into ghost writing And nowyou're matching ghost writers
with projects.
Jesse (10:53):
I will say I've never been a ghost
Meryl (10:55):
writer
Jesse (10:55):
I have, you know,
Meryl (10:56):
really?
Oh, I didn't realize that.
Jesse (10:57):
No, it's true.
Yeah.
Never.
I've, I've edited until I'm bluein the face.
All different kinds of things.
But as far as actually, becomingsomeone's voice
Meryl (11:04):
on the
Jesse (11:05):
it's not something I've done.
Interesting.
Okay.
But I will say, in terms of thework that I do on the
ghostwriting side, I work withone company to, to do
matchmaking work, and that ismeeting with clients and seeing
what their need is.
And again, it's.
It's like you're partmatchmaker, you're part
therapist because you're reallygetting on that call going,
okay, what do you need?
What is this project?
Why does it matter to you?
And why are you doing it?
(11:26):
And that, that's the basis ofhow you start the conversation.
And then from that, you'retalking to'em, you're learning
about, the shape and form of it,and you're getting a sense of
their needs.
Then from there, you'reconsidering who are the writers
available who might be a goodfit for this.
And it's really, I think that'san important piece of it where
you get these people who can besubject matter experts.
They can be thought leaders,they can be founders, CEOs,
(11:48):
creators of some kind oranother, they create social
movements.
They're great in front of acrowd.
But then you say.
Can you write this down?
And they go, right, right.
Meryl (11:56):
It's so interesting.
They could talk to 500 people.
Jesse (11:58):
Exactly.
Meryl (11:59):
But can't.
Jesse (11:59):
Yeah.
They're, they, I mean they, theycan activate entirely in one
way, but then, another way theymight put pen to paper and you
just get notes, which I think tothrow a cover on those and say,
Hey, here's this book.
Read it.
Someone's gonna go.
Not a book, But then if you findsomeone who is a match for them
in, their thought patterns,their style, and they can
capture their voice on the page,suddenly you get that magic,
(12:21):
alchemical connection wherethey're able to meet with that
person and say, here's what Iwanna say.
And that person goes, yes.
and then they're off to theraces, I like it a lot.
I really the therapy, illusion Ijust made, I think is apt in
many senses where you see peoplelight up talking about their
idea and I go, ah, it'sbeautiful.
Meryl (12:36):
What would you say I don't know if I was the best
ghost writer.
I think I've, I think I'm allright at it.
What would you say are thequalities of a good ghost
writer?
Jesse (12:45):
I would say, first of all, I don't know that you can
necessarily, I don't know ifthere, there will be an absolute
list on that.
But what I would say is thatsomebody who can approach
Meryl (12:51):
a project
Ariana (12:52):
without a
Jesse (12:52):
sense of ego,
Meryl (12:53):
that's what I was thinking.
Jesse (12:54):
And to be able to really get to the crux of what the
person wants to say without thesense of, oh, I wanna put my
spin on this, or here's how Iwould do it.
Because I think you, you have tobe able to take your skillset
and you have to be able to mapit to somebody's need, And then
I think also flexibility is, isa massive asset, and, the
ability to take feedback, Ithink for, for any writer,
arguably that's, very important.
Vital, even.
(13:14):
But for ghost writing, I thinkwhere, it is you air quotes on
the page, but it's not reallyyou because it's the client,
it's whatever their need is andit, it's in their voice, it's in
their style, it's in their kindof, how aggressive are they?
How passive are they?
How what is their mix of kind oftone and style and voice.
And then familiarizing yourselfwith that, and being able to
apply that to use your skills,to disappear behind the words.
(13:37):
And then from that point.
Create something that they'regoing to, they're going to love
that will meet their needs, meettheir message, do whatever it
has to do out in the world.
Meryl (13:45):
Yeah.
I feel like the ability toemotionally detach, but also,
work with passion.
Mm-hmm.
Because I found for myselfsometimes, I would start getting
emotionally involved in thestory or wanting a certain
things to go a certain way.
But you wanna advocate for whatwill make the book best, but
also what makes it the clienthappy.
(14:05):
So
Jesse (14:05):
I guess, I'd actually kick back to you for a second on
that.
How did you confront thatchallenge, that sort of finding
the ego or the sense of kind ofself bleeding into the work?
What was your approach there?
Meryl (14:16):
Yeah, I had to remind myself this is their book, not
mine.
I, i, what I think doesn'tmatter, but also myself assert
myself too when I needed to.
So that was the interestingchallenge.
But people would always say, oh,so your name's not gonna be on
it.
aren't you mad?
and I'm, I don't give no, I Iname.
Jesse (14:35):
yeah.
Ariana (14:36):
Got a paycheck.
Meryl (14:37):
Right.
The other thing that'sinteresting is that many of the
people who hire have the moneyto hire someone to write their
book.
They have done interestingthings.
They are often a littleeccentric.
And they let you into theirinteresting world, and you're
like a their chef or theirhousekeeper.
Jesse (14:56):
Exactly.
Someone's walking the dog,someone's writing book,
someone's making the salad.
Meryl (15:00):
You're just on staff.
Um, So yeah.
Ariana (15:03):
Did you find, or were you ever in place where it was
hard to find your voice again,having written written for these
different clients, I guess yeah.
Jesse (15:12):
honestly, I think that for me it, it is difficult, and
really, we've talked a bitoffline about, the challenges of
finding the time, finding the,breaking through the inertia on
writing.
And for me, I think having triedso many different pies within
the industry, it's a bit hard toclear my palate.
To go, okay, I'm going to factorout the ghost dreading world.
I'm going to factor out, thethink tank wonky stuff.
(15:33):
And then get back to, my, myvoice on the page.
I think that, that is achallenge.
It's not so much the inabilityto access the voice.
It's the discipline to make thetime.
And to be able to go, okay, Iknow I have to, finish X, Y, Z
deadlines today.
I have x, Y, Z deadlinestomorrow, the next day I have to
go to the gym, I have to do mylaundry.
(15:54):
I, what am I gonna make fordinner?
I don't know.
And then to block all this stuffout.
And especially, you know, asfreelancers you can I'm sure
empathize.
You have to be such a master ofyour own time, and for me, I
think time management, I am sogood when it comes to clients.
I am
Meryl (16:08):
That's good when
Jesse (16:09):
it comes to myself.
Ariana (16:10):
Yeah.
It's like, what is, what is thatit's like, Oh, like even
organization, like my fileorganization on my computer, for
my project folders, allbeautiful.
Then my writing, i'd never knowwhere my documents are.
but
Jesse (16:25):
I mean, I don't know.
My, my invoice folders are.
Hospital, corner bed style, sotight, down to the week, the
hour, the minute
Meryl (16:34):
Nothing in my life is organized so i'm impressed by
you
Jesse (16:37):
of we We all have our strengths Strengths.
Yeah,
Ariana (16:42):
we do do Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
is have you trying out anythingthese days, like for cleanse
Jesse (16:48):
I would say, i'm trying to dedicate, certain days of the
week to, to my own work, and Ithink, oftentimes it will be a
Friday because Fridays areslower, the invoices are out,
the deadlines are met, and Isay, okay, I have, four or five
hours here to do this.
And to some extent of late thathas worked.
Where I've been, I'm working onsomething, creatively now, and
I'm, I would say in the researchand pre drafting phase, where
(17:10):
I'm making a lot of notes, I'mpulling a lot of sources, I'm
doing a lot of kind of digginginto kind of the things I wanna
write about, and I'm making timefor that in a really set way.
And that, in that case, it's ithelped, and it's helped a lot.
'cause my Mondays throughThursdays, honestly, are usually
pretty hectic.
Meryl (17:24):
Right.
And that's actually good'causeyou're cleaning the palate for
the weekend.
Jesse (17:27):
And this is something that I'd be curious to, to hear
from you both about is howsacred are your weekends?
Because I would say my weekendsare immensely sacred to me.
I know people who arefreelancers who will, they will
be freelance writers and they'llsay, oh, no I'm working all day
Saturday, and half a Sunday.
I'm thinking to myself, Irespect that.
I respect that hustle.
I respect that grind.
When are you living?
(17:49):
When are you living?
Because I think, there, there'sthis great, I'm gonna mangle it.
I'm sure there's a great FranLebowitz quote about how writers
need to experience life and theyhave to be out in the world.
They have to be, taking a walkin a park.
I I think the one she uses issitting at a bar, listening to
people more or less bullshit.
Yeah.
And to go, alright, soak allthat in.
Because I think ultimatelywriters and, i'm sure you could
(18:11):
pull a thousand analogies, but Ithink of writers as a sponge to
the world.
And we're soaking things in andwe're saying, okay, here's what
I've taken in, here's how I'mgoing to wring it out in an
entirely different form.
And then, and in that way toexpress yourself.
So in that case, I think of myweekends as sacred because
that's what I am experiencing,and and doing
Ariana (18:31):
try do laundry in the middle the week always my goal
Jesse (18:34):
a bold choice,
Ariana (18:35):
and that's how I keep my weekend sacred.
They're not for laundry andthey're not for grocery shopping
because first of
Jesse (18:40):
all, those
Ariana (18:41):
places are too crowded, especially on a Sunday.
Absolutely not.
Meryl (18:44):
I'm pretty lazy as I've mentioned.
So I would say I'm a hardcorehappy hour to Saturday night.
No, I don't wanna think aboutany kind of work.
Sunday there's a, I might try todo something, probably not a
ton, but just a little to, toprobably, partly to give like
the, get the Sunday scaries out
Jesse (19:04):
Right?
Right.
Meryl (19:05):
So that i'm like, not oh, Monday, what is your life?
Jesse (19:07):
Like a
Meryl (19:07):
soft
Jesse (19:07):
reentry right?
Meryl (19:08):
soft reentry.
Jesse (19:09):
So Also, evenings are when there are readings right.
make time for the readings
Ariana (19:13):
How do you feel about readings?
Jesse (19:15):
I like seeing the people who are reading these books in
person.
Because I think reading is sucha solitary activity for the most
part, outside of book clubs.
one of those, we can talk aboutthat too.
Meryl (19:24):
Oh.
Oh.
Jesse (19:25):
But, um, um
Meryl (19:26):
I'm trying to get into a book club, no one will ever let
me in.
Jesse (19:29):
Wait, wow.
Exclusive book clubs you'retrying to get into the VIP, I
think that, it's nice to seehonestly the people who are
consuming the stuff thateveryone's making, and to see
the passion, where you getsomeone who just come up and
they'll say, oh, I just finishedthis book and I love this book.
And the sense of just theappreciation where, I think we
can finish a book, close a pageand go, oh, that was nice.
(19:50):
I like that.
But you're not really, veryoften you're not in community
with people and that's one ofthe rare outlets outside of,
literary festivals and thosesort of things to do that.
And I think also, like I saythis with love.
Book people are weird.
and I think that's fantasticbecause like we need more weird
in the world.
But then, you see all the weirdwhen you go to these readings,
like How come as you are, Comeas you are.
(20:12):
And people do that to readings.
Uh,
Meryl (20:14):
I would say like about 60% of the time I regret going
to a reading.
Jesse (20:18):
Oh.
Meryl (20:19):
Ooh.
But it's really dependent on howthe writer is as a performer.
Like some people, they justdon't have a great reading
voice.
I'm probably one of them.
And they're just, they don'tknow how to make it come alive,
and then I just can't listen.
Yeah.
I think they should be like fiveminutes.
And then the, the talk should belonger the question Yeah
Jesse (20:38):
Like q and an hour, reading 10 10 minutes.
Yeah.
yeah.
If P-S-A-P-S-A
Ariana (20:44):
a.
Or so I went to this reading andactually hopefully we'll get
this woman on our show.
Hawley Hussey.
She's an artist and writer.
She, I went to her reading andshe made it so fun.
first of all, she lives in ConeyIsland.
So what she did was she wouldread parts of her book and then
she'd have friends do littleperformances in between the
reading part.
(21:04):
So she had someone do a littleguitar, she had someone do a
dance.
I can't remember exactly all thethings, but it was there were
all these different sections.
So instead of one chunk ofreading, it was broken up with I
guess guess Palate cleansers.
Pallet cleansers.
And then we had questions andtalks in between that.
So it was a very dynamicreading.
Jesse (21:29):
I will say, it, it's funny, your point about the
author's voice not always beingthe best for speaking Meryl, I
think about that in audio bookstoo.
You know where I mean in thebook club?
In the book club, I try andmostly read on paper, but here
and there I will get, a Spotifyaudio book version and there was
one book, I'm not gonna say thetitle because I don't wanna
besmirch the narrator, but thevoice was so grading it was this
(21:54):
sort of an I'll do the best thatI can.
It was very much a kind of.
This sort of tone, and then itwas a lot of vocal fry.
So i, I could not listen.
That for hours.
That was the, I was and it wasthe entire book.
And these jobs are hard to get.
I know.
And I know a couple audiobooknarrators and they're really,
it's a fierce competitive Yeah.
Yeah.
But I will say that it reallygot through it because I sped up
(22:15):
the tempo.
So I went to about time and ahalf and then suddenly it was
little Fry, but it was a bitfaster.
So I could just go through thisway and the chapters they
flowed.
I got through it.
I will say I when I listen tothat one again?
No, but I was ready for thediscussion.
Meryl (22:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't wanna potentiallybesmirch to your book club, but
I'm curious are there a lot ofwriters in there?
How is it as a writer and apublisher?
Jesse (22:39):
It's interesting.
We don't have a lot of writersin our.
Uh, book club there's two of us.
Oh.
Meryl (22:44):
does hearing their perspectives, did it, does it
feel different than the...
Jesse (22:48):
it does because here's the thing.
The club is run by, like a adear friend and former colleague
of mine who is, she's the otherwriter in the group.
And then there are a couple ofteachers.
And they bring That'sinteresting.
Like the educational componentand really, when, one of them,
she says all the time, and Ilove it.
She's we'll go into thisconversation and then people
will run off on tangents andshe'll always she sits there for
(23:10):
a moment and then she goes, okaybring it back.
And she gestures, she goes tothe text.
Ariana (23:16):
Yes we need those we need those
Jesse (23:18):
I love that.
Love that.
And she keeps us on track, youknow, because someone's like, oh
well, and they, and they go offand tell this lovely but
rambling story, and then she'salways back to the text, and I'm
thinking, I appreciate you,Yeah.
You really bring it home andkeep us on track.
I will say, our book club readsexclusively nonfiction and
they're all kind of, we've readhistory, we've read memoir and,
(23:39):
but a lot of them are likereally idea driven books.
So the conversations are alwaysmeaty.
And I love that, it really I,generally I think probably'cause
I read memoir myself, so it's ahop, skip to read, different, a
music memoir, a drug memoir.
We read that Emily Whit memoirrecently.
And that was such a divisivebook, where people really, some
people felt like, oh, I love thekind of peak into the oughts
(24:00):
music culture.
Meryl (24:01):
Then other people
Jesse (24:02):
like,
Ariana (24:02):
why all the drugs?
Jesse (24:04):
So many drugs?
We need all the drugs.
Exactly.
You know, and I think we it thatway.
It's always funny'cause I, Ilove the club because you never
know how people are going totake something.
And, and it really we read abook about the blue stockings,
which were, like a, and I'm sureyou both know like a, a very
kind of revolutionary group ofwomen who were writing and
thinking and speaking and havingsalons in a time when that was
(24:25):
not done generally, or it wasfor the men.
And we really, that was such agreat kind of moment of looking
back at writing as not just inindustry, but something that
people engage with and, dealingwith, looking the historical
complications of that and reallythe beauty that came out of it,
and outta these people who werewilling to fight for what they
wanted to talk about, thinkabout, write about, and they
(24:47):
wrote books upon books.
These women individually.
So it was really, I with thatstuff in our club.
It's enjoyable.
Ariana (24:54):
Do you have any top memoirs that you like?
Jesse (24:56):
The one that I often tell people to read is Sally'Manns
Holds Still.
Okay.
She's a photographer and it's anunusual memoir where it deals
with her.
First of all, because she's aphotographer.
It's very visually rich too.
So it's text dense and visuallyrich.
Meryl (25:12):
Visually as in as in she has a lot of pictures in there?
Jesse (25:15):
Exactly.
yep.
Throughout the entire book.
She has and really the, thegreat part is, she talks some
about the craft.
and refining her craft.
And she'll show, in the book sheshows like photos that didn't
quite make the cut.
and you really get the sort ofguidance on the page through her
words.
And then you see it play outwith the visuals as well.
But it's also, it's a great bookbecause it's multifaceted.
It deals with, her historical,considering her family, and
(25:37):
their involvement with enslavedpeople in the American South.
And it really is just it's herlife as a photographer, but also
her life against this massivecontext.
And, and I will say it's, it isa meaty book.
I think it's probably, it mightbe like 500 pages, probably
less, but I think it's at least400.
But it's a book where I really Igo to bat for that every time,
you know, and every time Irecommend and I say to someone,
(25:59):
you have to be ready for someheavy, dark stuff.
You have to be ready for somebeauty and you have to be ready
for just sticking it out.
Cause it's a very intenselywritten book.
and I would also say everyoneshould read not to jump on the
soapbox.
Again, more Fran Lebowitz, butwhat's
Meryl (26:13):
please, Oh yeah
Jesse (26:13):
New yorkers read more, fran.
Meryl (26:15):
Oh God, yes.
Yes.
And she write more.
as she should.
Jesse (26:18):
Please come on.
Meryl (26:20):
It's it's been a long time
Jesse (26:21):
today We're waiting.
We're waiting.
And I would say that because.
Really she's the, in some senseit's opposite of Sally man,
where that, that is a book atlength and Fran can do nothing
at length.
Meryl (26:30):
No.
Jesse (26:30):
She is bite-sized snippets, bon mots, witticisms.
And I think now, particularlyjust again, in my
Meryl (26:37):
own point of view
Jesse (26:38):
we need those critical voices mm-hmm.
Meryl (26:40):
who are not afraid to offend.
Jesse (26:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who aren't afraid to speaktruth to power, and be willing
to call things out, where Ithink a lot of people are a
little more.
Trepidatious now.
there's definitely
Ariana (26:51):
a element of
Meryl (26:53):
fear and anxiety.
something.
something.
Jesse (26:54):
in the air.
Meryl (26:55):
Yeah.
I'm gonna bungle her quote, butone of the quotes that I love by
her is something about peoplenow think that rich people are
smart.
Jesse (27:02):
Anyone who thinks that rich people are smart,
Meryl (27:04):
never met
Jesse (27:04):
anyone
Meryl (27:05):
smart and never met anyone rich.
Ariana (27:06):
Right?
Snaps.
Meryl (27:10):
better
Jesse (27:11):
Snaps
Ariana (27:12):
for that.
Meryl (27:17):
I think one of the things that, that upsets me about AI
every, a lot of things upset meis the idea like of the jobs
that aren't necessarily being acreative writer that are ways to
write and people who have theskillset of writing are going to
really disappear.
And I've had friends say thingslike who cares?
That's not really writinganyway.
(27:38):
But it's very hard to make moneyin this world.
And if you have the skill ofbeing a writer, there aren't
opportunities and some of thesejobs, like writing content.
Going, all of that stuff, goingto AI, it just means that
there's less people with ourskills who can make money and
live well.
Jesse (27:55):
And I, I would argue also, think about it in the long
tail, right?
As time goes on, if there arefewer of those people, what
happens to communication?
how we communicate and speak toeach other, and you,
Meryl (28:06):
if we were not even learning or valuing that as a
human skill
Jesse (28:09):
exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ariana (28:11):
back to grunts and like we're going back down yes.
evolutionary, Yes scale.
Meryl (28:16):
Yes, exactly.
exactly
Jesse (28:18):
there, there's an arc for everything, right?
Yeah.
maybe we're on the downwardtrend.
No.
Ariana (28:22):
I tell my students, like when I was teaching English
composition, cause no one wantsto be there and I'm like, look,
you can use if you want,whatever.
But having your own voice thatkeeps you relevant, yeah.
Don't be replaceable bymachines.
Like you are, you have a storyto tell whatever it is, and
through whatever means you livein this world And yeah,
Meryl (28:44):
Don't give that up.
Don't up.
Exactly
Ariana (28:45):
Don't give that up give that readily.
Jesse (28:47):
Here's the thing is I think, can we wave a magic wand
and make it, make AI not a thinganymore?
No, we can't.
I think, and I thinkrealistically we have to grapple
with what that means for thewriting industry and
entertainment as a whole.
But I think there are, it's.
It's advancing.
But I think about, for oneexample, I remember reading a
story about somebody going to AIand asking, I don't know if it
was GPT or some other service,what do I put on a pizza to make
(29:09):
cheese stick?
and the answer came back wasglue.
Okay.
Perfect.
Okay,
Ariana (29:16):
Yes, that works.
Meryl (29:17):
so we're okay for a for a minute.
Jesse (29:18):
Exactly.
and I think that, it's going toget better, but also I think,
you know what does interest meis how people will engage with
it and work with it.
I've read so many job postingsfor AI, prompt engineers, people
who are communicating with, andfeeding the best possible
linguistics into the ai.
I think that's a temporary job.
I think that's something thatwill, as soon as AI advances
enough, that will go away too.
(29:40):
But I'm curious to see, howpeople use it organizationally.
For example, and let's just,let's spitball for a second
here.
Let's say you're trying tooutline something and you're
stuck, and you're thinking,okay, I have a vague idea for
how I wanna do this I know, thekind of themes I wanna touch on,
the kind of characters I mightemploy for the first, three to
five of them.
And then let's say you bring itto aI and you say.
(30:01):
Okay give me an outline modeledafter Hamlet, but using these
kinds of characters make thesesort of plot points and beats
and things to jump off from andthen it spits something back at
you, potentially.
Would that be serviceable?
I don't know.
But maybe for someone to say,okay, you know what?
Now I have a draft outline.
Do I love it?
(30:21):
No.
Is it perfect?
No.
Did it give me, a recipe forputting glue on pizza in the
middle?
Maybe.
Here's a serviceable documentbased upon plot points of Hamlet
that I can then take and adaptfrom my own uses.
And then write your own work.
By no means, I think like theproblem is in using it solely
for generative writing.
Right.
Because then you get, Ariana, toyour point, the lack of voice.
(30:43):
But I think about a sense ofwhere, using it as that jumping
off point versus the generativelanguage.
Right.
Because really, you get, I meanthey, they said the piece said
something about AI loves to usethe word delve, so everything's
always, you're always delvinginto something.
Which is very dramatic.
Just thinking about differentapplications there I agree.
Where if the tide turns and itis a generative use and a full
(31:04):
scale replacement of jobs.
That's a problem.
And we don't have UBI right now,so so Yeah.
What are people gonna do?
Meryl (31:12):
Right,
Ariana (31:12):
I think also the fear is also' it is taking from other,
from artists' work,
Jesse (31:17):
7 million copyright and work.
Right?
Works that we're in
Ariana (31:20):
so they're, so they're, actually stealings stealing
stuff.
So it's not really generatinganything new.
It's taking from existing stuffand and Remixing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is.
Problematic.
Jesse (31:32):
And I think also, and i'd be curious to hear both of your
points on this or perspectives.
I worry about in a world whereculture gets lazy and good
enough is good enough.
What does that do to high art?.
Meryl (31:47):
think it's all terrible.
Ariana (31:48):
This might be a optimistic point of view, but
taking the movie industry yeah.
As an example.
At this point, Marvel's justchurning out.
out It's a lot of this stuff isgood enough.
Most streaming sites and have tojust be Marvel.
Streaming sites are just likethese movies, these TV shows
that are just underdevelopedthey could be good, but they're
just like, eh, that'll work.
Let's do it.
But then you get Sinners forexample, and it blows up or
(32:11):
Severance, people do react tothings that are actually
stimulating or have a uniquepoint of view.
So I feel like that will stillexist.
Whether these, the gatekeepers,the money people will give money
to these folks that's anotherquestion.
But I think artists will stillmake art, you know, dark ages.
(32:31):
We still, we the renaissanceafter Right.
Meryl (32:34):
I think that there is a desire when we engage with art
to be engaging with otherhumans.
Yeah.
So I just don't see how AI couldactually replace that for and
make us feel feel same way yeah
Ariana (32:46):
There, yeah, there's that loneliness epidemic with
the younger generations andthey're actually talking to AI
someone, was it you were tellingme Meryl, no, my friend was
like, I was on the train and Ijust glanced over at someone's
phone and I didn't mean to readit, but I realized this woman
was or this girl, was texting toan aI bot all her feelings
Meryl (33:06):
yeah I this is happening a lot and it's really weird,
Ariana (33:11):
I have to imagine that it'll backswing in that you
realize you, all you want is toconnect with somebody.
Meryl (33:17):
Or maybe it won't, maybe it'll be better.
Maybe people will love hearingrobot.
Like there will be lessconflict.
No.
All right.
Let's see.
Ariana (33:24):
less conflict because of the robots mean robots yes,
Jesse (33:26):
No, not
Meryl (33:27):
human.
Think the are
Ariana (33:30):
they're gonna create even more division.
Meryl (33:33):
What I mean?
But they'll be like, you arenice to me in in a way that
humans aren't, oh, like theywhat have to deal saying with
the conflict of other actualhumans.
Humans
Jesse (33:40):
But then, it raises the point of is some conflict.
Good?
Right?
Does it push you to grow?
Does it push you to confrontyour, your faults, your
failings, other people's faultsand failing shortcomings?
Meryl (33:49):
I would think so.
so That's
Ariana (33:50):
you can't be, That's why I think it's really hard to be
with somebody who's exactly likeyou.
Right?
Because you, you need that, youneed the tension.
Right.
And
Meryl (33:58):
Whereas
Ariana (33:58):
I think it makes it more interesting.
Makes you think of other things.
Meryl (34:02):
An AI companion, I feel like is just reflect, it's just
just a mirror
Jesse (34:06):
yeah.
And also, to, to your point,like it's this soft of a landing
as you want it to be.
So it's like you could just livein like a marshmallow world of
the AI being nice to you,
Meryl (34:13):
but then you go outside and
Jesse (34:16):
Right.
it's just paroting stuff back toyou
Meryl (34:18):
I think we're gonna learn.
Do people want to grow?
Do people want to think, dopeople wanna communicate, I
guess the next few years?
we'll see.
Jesse (34:25):
I'm really curious about that.
I wanna believe they do.
And I think some portion will,will I think there are some who
maybe won't or don't.
Ariana (34:33):
Yeah.
Jesse (34:34):
But, humanity beautiful complex.
Meryl (34:41):
In one word, how would you your reading life?
Jesse (34:47):
Expensive
Meryl (34:49):
how about your writing life?
Jesse (34:51):
In flux.
Meryl (34:52):
And your weirdest obsession.
Jesse (34:54):
Lately it's getting really good at bowling.
Meryl (34:57):
I love that.
I love
Jesse (34:58):
I joined a social league a year ago.
It has consumed my Life lifethat a I bought a ball.
What does that tell You is there
Meryl (35:04):
You are in there.
Ariana (35:11):
It's all right to love book clubs or It's all right to
hate book clubs.
Jesse (35:15):
Yes it's all right to learn from your book club.
club It's all right to push backagainst the robots.
Yeah.
it's all right to tikTok.
it, right
Ariana (35:23):
Question
Jesse (35:24):
Question mark.dot.
Dot dot dot it's all right tostrike out and try Again.
Meryl (35:29):
ooh.
Yeah.
Mm.
Ariana (35:32):
it's all right that your weekends are sacred.
To
Jesse (35:35):
keep your Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
Ariana (35:38):
you can check out.
It's All Write on most streamingplatforms.
So Apple Spotify, Amazon.
All the all the places.
We release new episodes everyother Tuesday, so every two
Tuesdays you can follow us onInstagram at it's All right pod.
And you can also email us atit's all right pod@gmail.com.
(36:02):
And that's w right spelledW-R-I-T-E.
Meryl (36:06):
Thanks for listening.
See you next time
In a world where culture gets lazy and good enough is
good enough.
What does that do to high art?.
We need those critical voicesmm-hmm.
Meryl (00:09):
Who are not afraid to offend.
Jesse (00:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who aren't afraid to speaktruth to power, and be willing
to call things out, where Ithink a lot of people are a
little more.
Trepidatious now.
Ariana (00:24):
Hi, I'm Ariana McLean.
Meryl (00:26):
I'm Meryl Branch McTiernan.
Ariana (00:28):
You're listening to It's All Right.
Jesse (00:29):
The podcast
Meryl (00:30):
about
Ariana (00:30):
the writing life and those who live it.
Meryl (00:33):
Today we're joined by my friend Jesse Alan, who's an
editorial communications and thedreaded word content consultant
based in New York.
He has worked across thepublishing and media industries,
including a global tradepublishing house, A data-driven
startup publisher, and on aconsulting basis with
ghostwriting companies, contentmarketing companies, and a
(00:53):
nonpartisan think tank.
Hi, Jesse.
Thanks for being here.
Hello.
Jesse (00:56):
Hello.
Thank you both for having me.
I'm thrilled to be here.
Meryl (00:59):
we wanted to talk about the dreaded word
Jesse (01:01):
Content.
Content.
Content.
Ariana (01:04):
What do you think about that?
Jesse (01:06):
So here's the thing I know from listening to your
previous episodes, that you bothhave feelings about content.
Yes.
And I they are entirely valid,believe me.
I'm partially in agreement withyou on that.
I will say I think that in termsof content.
I think of it in a broadumbrella kind of term where
content can be so many differentthings.
It can be different types ofwritten content.
It can be, different types ofmedia content.
(01:27):
So I think really that the keyis to think about the
accessibility of it and the waythat like different people can
view content in ways to makethem part of the publishing or
media ecosystem.
Agree with you, Meryl, thatwriting is an art and art should
be the goal ultimately, but Ithink of art and content as
being, to your earlier point,very separate things.
Ariana (01:46):
So when you're working let's say with an artist, a
writer, are you then consultingthem on how to create content
for their platforms?
Jesse (01:56):
I would say really it's less about their platforms, it's
more about for individualclients I've worked to get their
voice out.
And, really figure out what theyshould sound like on the page.
For example, for the think tankthat I've worked for, it's about
taking very high level writingfrom, policy wonks, economic
experts, people who are sosteeped in this field, but then
you're writing for the C-suite.
So it has to be a verydigestible, very, message
(02:18):
forward kind of approach.
And for what I do, it's, in, inthat case, I mean that style of
content is taking this very kindof high level economic, wonky
language and then boiling itdown to a point where it's
accessible, to like a C-suiteperson can take that and find a
course of action or kind offamiliarize themselves with the
challenges of that particularlandscape.
So it's about, in that way beinga bit of a translator, a bit of
(02:40):
a conduit between the economicside and then the sort of action
minded okay, what do I do withthis info C-Suite side.
Meryl (02:48):
How did the thinkers that have written the initial content
or piece, how do they react toyour trying to get it?
Jesse (02:55):
I love that question.
At first, my, my firstassignment, I was so nervous, I
thought, oh no, I might editingtoo much.
Am I editing too little?
And i, It was actually on atrial basis where, the person I
was working with said, okay, forthe first one or two of these,
we're gonna go through you andI, and then I will transmit
things to the, teams, and thenthey'll give me their feedback.
(03:15):
We did that about twice, andthen I heard back from them.
We love this feedback.
It is so actionable.
It's so clear.
There's no ego in it.
And really, I realized like Iapproached it,'cause I come from
a book editing background aswell and I approach that work in
the same way as I've approachedany kind of editorial project,
which is you take someone andyou realize when they're giving
you their book, their report,their content.
(03:38):
it's a bit of the of a preciousbaby.
And you have to respect themessaging of that and to go,
okay, I'm not going to rip thisthing shreds.
I'm going to say here are gentleways of improvement.
Here are, compliment sandwiches.
This is working so well, maybeimprove this.
This is such a great way to endit.
That kind of thing.
And really, I found out that,and to my surprise, I could work
with people where, I'm not aneconomics expert, but I began to
(04:00):
understand where they werecoming from and then to treat
that with, the levity andrespected deserved, while also
refining the work to make sureit was clear and not, too wonky.
Ariana (04:11):
Yeah, that's a, I can imagine that's like a very
delicate balance.
Jesse (04:16):
It really can be.
Absolutely.
Ariana (04:17):
and also really needed.
'Cause right now we're seeingpeople just flocking to things
that sound good, that areuntrue.
We really wanna do on thepodcast because you have this
multifaceted experience andviewpoint on writing the writing
industry and all the sort oftangential industries.
(04:39):
Can you tell us maybe a briefjourney through your trajectory?
Jesse (04:43):
I would say I, my, my first entry was really, it
wasn't actually at a publisher.
I began at a talent agency.
I moved to New York and I wasdesperate for, any job.
I worked at a law firm at thetime, so that was a bit of, got
my early editorial chops, likereading people's affidavits
about why they were coming tothis country.
And I did that for a coupleyears and then I realized, okay,
this is, fine, but notultimately where my heart and
soul is leading me.
(05:04):
And I met an agent at the timewho said, oh, she was working at
a large agency and she said,there is an opening here, so if
you want to think about this.
You have some legal background,you have, you're familiar with
contracts, that kind of thing.
Come in and interview for it.
So I came in and I met the headbooks lawyer at the agency, and
within about half an hour, oneof the first questions he said,
okay, so you've been, a front ofoffice, you've dealt with
(05:26):
clients, you've dealt withattorneys, you've dealt with
judges, you've dealt with everyunder of the sun.
You can take pressure.
And I said.
Yeah.
I, 24, 20 5-year-old me is goingUhhuh.
Yeah, sure I can.
Yeah.
I got this.
And he said, good,'cause this,this is a great place, but there
are a lot of strongpersonalities here and you have
to be able to stand up foryourself and, we have to get
these deals done.
I said, okay.
(05:47):
Yeah.
So I got there and I got the joband it really, it was such an
interesting way to come into theindustry first, because it's all
about kind of sales, but it'sabout art.
Where you really you have agentsbuilding lists that matter to
them.
They wanna say something to theworld, and they want to have the
appropriate list to do that.
The right
Meryl (06:03):
authors, the right mix.
That is nice to hear that theydo actually
Jesse (06:07):
care about art.
Oh yeah.
Oh they care, they care aboutcommerce too, but they care
about art.
And I would say particularly,book people are some of my
favorite people.
They're really, literary agentswere fantastic.
They're thoughtful, they're,nuanced.
They read with care.
So I did that job for a fewyears.
I think I was there for fiveyears actually, and I read for
agents on the side, and Irealized, oh, like this industry
(06:29):
piques me.
I wanna know more.
I wanna learn more.
So I ended up going to apublishing course in Denver for
a summer and I took a month off.
It was a mini sabbatical.
I said, I'm gonna do this andpeople said, oh, there's the NYU
one.
I said I want nature.
Meryl (06:43):
Yeah.
Jesse (06:44):
I exactly.
I like I here all time.
I want some fresh air, somemountains, some hiking.
I walked in Denver.
I was the only person to walk inDenver.
Everybody drove cars, which Ithought was hilarious.
But I was there for a month andI realized, from doing all that,
we did editorial, marketing,publicity, every single piece of
it.
I came back and I gave notice.
I said
Meryl (07:03):
thanks for the time off.
Exactly.
Jesse (07:04):
This is lovely.
I finished out the year and theysaid, we wish you well.
This has been a wonderfulrelationship, but clearly you
wanna do other things.
I said, yeah, I do.
So within a month I landed atRandom House.
My boss was a publisher of animprint there, and really I was,
you know, the 30,000 foot viewof the industry where it was
really how do you run animprint?
How do you make decisions aboutcovers?
(07:25):
How do you make acquisitionsdecisions?
How do you look at your list andyour season spread overall and
say, we have a little bit ofeverything, we're striking all
the right notes, we're speakingto current events and what
matters in the world, but alsowhat matters in, fiction
translation.
What is popular in Korea thatmaybe we should consider here?
It was really kind of a way toget that global view and a
(07:45):
fascinating, amazing place to doit too.
One of my favorite things aboutthat piece of the industry is
the acquisition side, where youhave to go into a room and
you're gonna have to defend whatyou believe in.
You're gonna have to say, oh,there's this debut author.
I love their work.
Here's why they matter.
Here's why they matter for ourlist.
Here's why they should be here.
This is the right home for them.
in that way it really it openedmy eyes, I would say to how the
(08:07):
sausage is made.
Meryl (08:08):
Yeah, I was wondering about that.
Since you are a creative writeras well, have you found ever
that the market has drifted intoyour psyche as you're writing?
Do you ever worry about that?
Jesse (08:18):
I can't say that I do.
And that, I either I don't know,for better or worse, I would say
I'm aware of the market, but Ialso know that, when I sit down
to write something, when I havethe blank page staring at me, it
has to be its own authenticform.
It has to be, not necessarily, Iknow, for example, romantacy is
hugely popular now.
I think if you had a gun to myhead, I don't know if I could
(08:38):
write romantacy, I would go, doI have to?
Is that gun loaded?
Okay.
Ariana (08:44):
I literally had this conversation yesterday on the
train with my friend there waslike what is it?
A court of Thorn and rose'sposter
Jesse (08:50):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (08:50):
on the subway.
Jesse (08:50):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (08:50):
and
Jesse (08:50):
uh.
Ariana (08:50):
And, and she's oh, what's that?
And I told her and then she'soh, you should write romantacy,
then you can make money.
And I was like, I
Meryl (08:56):
money.
Ariana (08:57):
I, I can't write that.
That's not what I write.
Jesse (09:01):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think there, I think thatevery writer should be, and this
is just, my one personperspective, you should be aware
of the marketplace, but youshouldn't let it influence your
authentic vision of what youwant to do.
Because I think really, that oldadage of kind of, you make what
you wanna make and then yourpeople find you, I think is
true.
Where there, I think chasingtrends and, we've seen, book
tok, TikTok, all this stuff,it's fantastic for visibility.
(09:24):
It's fantastic for getting theword out about things, but I
think taking it too seriously,and again, just in my own
opinion, can be damaging tosomeone's creative output.
Meryl (09:32):
And there's such a lag time between getting an agent
and selling a book to the bookactually coming out.
So if you try to chasesomething, you're gonna
Jesse (09:39):
be,
Ariana (09:39):
you're already behind.
Meryl (09:41):
behind.
Yeah.
Jesse and I met through ghostwriting.
So I was ghostwriting for awhile.
That's something I stumbled uponwhen I was in LA.
And I worked on quite a fewprojects.
I had to stop doing it duringgrad school because I felt that
I really was dedicating thattime to work on my own stuff and
(10:04):
to have other people's books inmy head wasn't helpful for that.
But during a period I guess itwas probably around eight years
ago, I went to this one brownpaper bag lunch for, one of the
ghost writing companies.
And Jesse and I met, I don'tknow, did we meet the elevator
or something?
Jesse (10:22):
I, probably my way lq.
I was gonna say l say exactly.
I, I have a distinctive memoryof us sitting around that table,
and zeroing in on you andthinking, I wanna know you
better.
Yeah.
And I think that we just struckup a conversation on the way
back down and then, we, I assumeat that time we were probably on
facebook, right?
Meryl (10:38):
Yeah.
yeah
Jesse (10:38):
bet we facebook.
Meryl (10:40):
So yeah.
So then we've just been friendsand, we've recommended each
other for some projects.
Yeah, We we never looked back.
Never looked back.
Jesse (10:46):
Mm-hmm.
Meryl (10:47):
So I'd love to talk a little bit about how you got
into ghost writing And nowyou're matching ghost writers
with projects.
Jesse (10:53):
I will say I've never been a ghost
Meryl (10:55):
writer
Jesse (10:55):
I have, you know,
Meryl (10:56):
really?
Oh, I didn't realize that.
Jesse (10:57):
No, it's true.
Yeah.
Never.
I've, I've edited until I'm bluein the face.
All different kinds of things.
But as far as actually, becomingsomeone's voice
Meryl (11:04):
on the
Jesse (11:05):
it's not something I've done.
Interesting.
Okay.
But I will say, in terms of thework that I do on the
ghostwriting side, I work withone company to, to do
matchmaking work, and that ismeeting with clients and seeing
what their need is.
And again, it's.
It's like you're partmatchmaker, you're part
therapist because you're reallygetting on that call going,
okay, what do you need?
What is this project?
Why does it matter to you?
And why are you doing it?
(11:26):
And that, that's the basis ofhow you start the conversation.
And then from that, you'retalking to'em, you're learning
about, the shape and form of it,and you're getting a sense of
their needs.
Then from there, you'reconsidering who are the writers
available who might be a goodfit for this.
And it's really, I think that'san important piece of it where
you get these people who can besubject matter experts.
They can be thought leaders,they can be founders, CEOs,
(11:48):
creators of some kind oranother, they create social
movements.
They're great in front of acrowd.
But then you say.
Can you write this down?
And they go, right, right.
Meryl (11:56):
It's so interesting.
They could talk to 500 people.
Jesse (11:58):
Exactly.
Meryl (11:59):
But can't.
Jesse (11:59):
Yeah.
They're, they, I mean they, theycan activate entirely in one
way, but then, another way theymight put pen to paper and you
just get notes, which I think tothrow a cover on those and say,
Hey, here's this book.
Read it.
Someone's gonna go.
Not a book, But then if you findsomeone who is a match for them
in, their thought patterns,their style, and they can
capture their voice on the page,suddenly you get that magic,
(12:21):
alchemical connection wherethey're able to meet with that
person and say, here's what Iwanna say.
And that person goes, yes.
and then they're off to theraces, I like it a lot.
I really the therapy, illusion Ijust made, I think is apt in
many senses where you see peoplelight up talking about their
idea and I go, ah, it'sbeautiful.
Meryl (12:36):
What would you say I don't know if I was the best
ghost writer.
I think I've, I think I'm allright at it.
What would you say are thequalities of a good ghost
writer?
Jesse (12:45):
I would say, first of all, I don't know that you can
necessarily, I don't know ifthere, there will be an absolute
list on that.
But what I would say is thatsomebody who can approach
Meryl (12:51):
a project
Ariana (12:52):
without a
Jesse (12:52):
sense of ego,
Meryl (12:53):
that's what I was thinking.
Jesse (12:54):
And to be able to really get to the crux of what the
person wants to say without thesense of, oh, I wanna put my
spin on this, or here's how Iwould do it.
Because I think you, you have tobe able to take your skillset
and you have to be able to mapit to somebody's need, And then
I think also flexibility is, isa massive asset, and, the
ability to take feedback, Ithink for, for any writer,
arguably that's, very important.
Vital, even.
(13:14):
But for ghost writing, I thinkwhere, it is you air quotes on
the page, but it's not reallyyou because it's the client,
it's whatever their need is andit, it's in their voice, it's in
their style, it's in their kindof, how aggressive are they?
How passive are they?
How what is their mix of kind oftone and style and voice.
And then familiarizing yourselfwith that, and being able to
apply that to use your skills,to disappear behind the words.
(13:37):
And then from that point.
Create something that they'regoing to, they're going to love
that will meet their needs, meettheir message, do whatever it
has to do out in the world.
Meryl (13:45):
Yeah.
I feel like the ability toemotionally detach, but also,
work with passion.
Mm-hmm.
Because I found for myselfsometimes, I would start getting
emotionally involved in thestory or wanting a certain
things to go a certain way.
But you wanna advocate for whatwill make the book best, but
also what makes it the clienthappy.
(14:05):
So
Jesse (14:05):
I guess, I'd actually kick back to you for a second on
that.
How did you confront thatchallenge, that sort of finding
the ego or the sense of kind ofself bleeding into the work?
What was your approach there?
Meryl (14:16):
Yeah, I had to remind myself this is their book, not
mine.
I, i, what I think doesn'tmatter, but also myself assert
myself too when I needed to.
So that was the interestingchallenge.
But people would always say, oh,so your name's not gonna be on
it.
aren't you mad?
and I'm, I don't give no, I Iname.
Jesse (14:35):
yeah.
Ariana (14:36):
Got a paycheck.
Meryl (14:37):
Right.
The other thing that'sinteresting is that many of the
people who hire have the moneyto hire someone to write their
book.
They have done interestingthings.
They are often a littleeccentric.
And they let you into theirinteresting world, and you're
like a their chef or theirhousekeeper.
Jesse (14:56):
Exactly.
Someone's walking the dog,someone's writing book,
someone's making the salad.
Meryl (15:00):
You're just on staff.
Um, So yeah.
Ariana (15:03):
Did you find, or were you ever in place where it was
hard to find your voice again,having written written for these
different clients, I guess yeah.
Jesse (15:12):
honestly, I think that for me it, it is difficult, and
really, we've talked a bitoffline about, the challenges of
finding the time, finding the,breaking through the inertia on
writing.
And for me, I think having triedso many different pies within
the industry, it's a bit hard toclear my palate.
To go, okay, I'm going to factorout the ghost dreading world.
I'm going to factor out, thethink tank wonky stuff.
(15:33):
And then get back to, my, myvoice on the page.
I think that, that is achallenge.
It's not so much the inabilityto access the voice.
It's the discipline to make thetime.
And to be able to go, okay, Iknow I have to, finish X, Y, Z
deadlines today.
I have x, Y, Z deadlinestomorrow, the next day I have to
go to the gym, I have to do mylaundry.
(15:54):
I, what am I gonna make fordinner?
I don't know.
And then to block all this stuffout.
And especially, you know, asfreelancers you can I'm sure
empathize.
You have to be such a master ofyour own time, and for me, I
think time management, I am sogood when it comes to clients.
I am
Meryl (16:08):
That's good when
Jesse (16:09):
it comes to myself.
Ariana (16:10):
Yeah.
It's like, what is, what is thatit's like, Oh, like even
organization, like my fileorganization on my computer, for
my project folders, allbeautiful.
Then my writing, i'd never knowwhere my documents are.
but
Jesse (16:25):
I mean, I don't know.
My, my invoice folders are.
Hospital, corner bed style, sotight, down to the week, the
hour, the minute
Meryl (16:34):
Nothing in my life is organized so i'm impressed by
you
Jesse (16:37):
of we We all have our strengths Strengths.
Yeah,
Ariana (16:42):
we do do Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
is have you trying out anythingthese days, like for cleanse
Jesse (16:48):
I would say, i'm trying to dedicate, certain days of the
week to, to my own work, and Ithink, oftentimes it will be a
Friday because Fridays areslower, the invoices are out,
the deadlines are met, and Isay, okay, I have, four or five
hours here to do this.
And to some extent of late thathas worked.
Where I've been, I'm working onsomething, creatively now, and
I'm, I would say in the researchand pre drafting phase, where
(17:10):
I'm making a lot of notes, I'mpulling a lot of sources, I'm
doing a lot of kind of digginginto kind of the things I wanna
write about, and I'm making timefor that in a really set way.
And that, in that case, it's ithelped, and it's helped a lot.
'cause my Mondays throughThursdays, honestly, are usually
pretty hectic.
Meryl (17:24):
Right.
And that's actually good'causeyou're cleaning the palate for
the weekend.
Jesse (17:27):
And this is something that I'd be curious to, to hear
from you both about is howsacred are your weekends?
Because I would say my weekendsare immensely sacred to me.
I know people who arefreelancers who will, they will
be freelance writers and they'llsay, oh, no I'm working all day
Saturday, and half a Sunday.
I'm thinking to myself, Irespect that.
I respect that hustle.
I respect that grind.
When are you living?
(17:49):
When are you living?
Because I think, there, there'sthis great, I'm gonna mangle it.
I'm sure there's a great FranLebowitz quote about how writers
need to experience life and theyhave to be out in the world.
They have to be, taking a walkin a park.
I I think the one she uses issitting at a bar, listening to
people more or less bullshit.
Yeah.
And to go, alright, soak allthat in.
Because I think ultimatelywriters and, i'm sure you could
(18:11):
pull a thousand analogies, but Ithink of writers as a sponge to
the world.
And we're soaking things in andwe're saying, okay, here's what
I've taken in, here's how I'mgoing to wring it out in an
entirely different form.
And then, and in that way toexpress yourself.
So in that case, I think of myweekends as sacred because
that's what I am experiencing,and and doing
Ariana (18:31):
try do laundry in the middle the week always my goal
Jesse (18:34):
a bold choice,
Ariana (18:35):
and that's how I keep my weekend sacred.
They're not for laundry andthey're not for grocery shopping
because first of
Jesse (18:40):
all, those
Ariana (18:41):
places are too crowded, especially on a Sunday.
Absolutely not.
Meryl (18:44):
I'm pretty lazy as I've mentioned.
So I would say I'm a hardcorehappy hour to Saturday night.
No, I don't wanna think aboutany kind of work.
Sunday there's a, I might try todo something, probably not a
ton, but just a little to, toprobably, partly to give like
the, get the Sunday scaries out
Jesse (19:04):
Right?
Right.
Meryl (19:05):
So that i'm like, not oh, Monday, what is your life?
Jesse (19:07):
Like a
Meryl (19:07):
soft
Jesse (19:07):
reentry right?
Meryl (19:08):
soft reentry.
Jesse (19:09):
So Also, evenings are when there are readings right.
make time for the readings
Ariana (19:13):
How do you feel about readings?
Jesse (19:15):
I like seeing the people who are reading these books in
person.
Because I think reading is sucha solitary activity for the most
part, outside of book clubs.
one of those, we can talk aboutthat too.
Meryl (19:24):
Oh.
Oh.
Jesse (19:25):
But, um, um
Meryl (19:26):
I'm trying to get into a book club, no one will ever let
me in.
Jesse (19:29):
Wait, wow.
Exclusive book clubs you'retrying to get into the VIP, I
think that, it's nice to seehonestly the people who are
consuming the stuff thateveryone's making, and to see
the passion, where you getsomeone who just come up and
they'll say, oh, I just finishedthis book and I love this book.
And the sense of just theappreciation where, I think we
can finish a book, close a pageand go, oh, that was nice.
(19:50):
I like that.
But you're not really, veryoften you're not in community
with people and that's one ofthe rare outlets outside of,
literary festivals and thosesort of things to do that.
And I think also, like I saythis with love.
Book people are weird.
and I think that's fantasticbecause like we need more weird
in the world.
But then, you see all the weirdwhen you go to these readings,
like How come as you are, Comeas you are.
(20:12):
And people do that to readings.
Uh,
Meryl (20:14):
I would say like about 60% of the time I regret going
to a reading.
Jesse (20:18):
Oh.
Meryl (20:19):
Ooh.
But it's really dependent on howthe writer is as a performer.
Like some people, they justdon't have a great reading
voice.
I'm probably one of them.
And they're just, they don'tknow how to make it come alive,
and then I just can't listen.
Yeah.
I think they should be like fiveminutes.
And then the, the talk should belonger the question Yeah
Jesse (20:38):
Like q and an hour, reading 10 10 minutes.
Yeah.
yeah.
If P-S-A-P-S-A
Ariana (20:44):
a.
Or so I went to this reading andactually hopefully we'll get
this woman on our show.
Hawley Hussey.
She's an artist and writer.
She, I went to her reading andshe made it so fun.
first of all, she lives in ConeyIsland.
So what she did was she wouldread parts of her book and then
she'd have friends do littleperformances in between the
reading part.
(21:04):
So she had someone do a littleguitar, she had someone do a
dance.
I can't remember exactly all thethings, but it was there were
all these different sections.
So instead of one chunk ofreading, it was broken up with I
guess guess Palate cleansers.
Pallet cleansers.
And then we had questions andtalks in between that.
So it was a very dynamicreading.
Jesse (21:29):
I will say, it, it's funny, your point about the
author's voice not always beingthe best for speaking Meryl, I
think about that in audio bookstoo.
You know where I mean in thebook club?
In the book club, I try andmostly read on paper, but here
and there I will get, a Spotifyaudio book version and there was
one book, I'm not gonna say thetitle because I don't wanna
besmirch the narrator, but thevoice was so grading it was this
(21:54):
sort of an I'll do the best thatI can.
It was very much a kind of.
This sort of tone, and then itwas a lot of vocal fry.
So i, I could not listen.
That for hours.
That was the, I was and it wasthe entire book.
And these jobs are hard to get.
I know.
And I know a couple audiobooknarrators and they're really,
it's a fierce competitive Yeah.
Yeah.
But I will say that it reallygot through it because I sped up
(22:15):
the tempo.
So I went to about time and ahalf and then suddenly it was
little Fry, but it was a bitfaster.
So I could just go through thisway and the chapters they
flowed.
I got through it.
I will say I when I listen tothat one again?
No, but I was ready for thediscussion.
Meryl (22:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't wanna potentiallybesmirch to your book club, but
I'm curious are there a lot ofwriters in there?
How is it as a writer and apublisher?
Jesse (22:39):
It's interesting.
We don't have a lot of writersin our.
Uh, book club there's two of us.
Oh.
Meryl (22:44):
does hearing their perspectives, did it, does it
feel different than the...
Jesse (22:48):
it does because here's the thing.
The club is run by, like a adear friend and former colleague
of mine who is, she's the otherwriter in the group.
And then there are a couple ofteachers.
And they bring That'sinteresting.
Like the educational componentand really, when, one of them,
she says all the time, and Ilove it.
She's we'll go into thisconversation and then people
will run off on tangents andshe'll always she sits there for
(23:10):
a moment and then she goes, okaybring it back.
And she gestures, she goes tothe text.
Ariana (23:16):
Yes we need those we need those
Jesse (23:18):
I love that.
Love that.
And she keeps us on track, youknow, because someone's like, oh
well, and they, and they go offand tell this lovely but
rambling story, and then she'salways back to the text, and I'm
thinking, I appreciate you,Yeah.
You really bring it home andkeep us on track.
I will say, our book club readsexclusively nonfiction and
they're all kind of, we've readhistory, we've read memoir and,
(23:39):
but a lot of them are likereally idea driven books.
So the conversations are alwaysmeaty.
And I love that, it really I,generally I think probably'cause
I read memoir myself, so it's ahop, skip to read, different, a
music memoir, a drug memoir.
We read that Emily Whit memoirrecently.
And that was such a divisivebook, where people really, some
people felt like, oh, I love thekind of peak into the oughts
(24:00):
music culture.
Meryl (24:01):
Then other people
Jesse (24:02):
like,
Ariana (24:02):
why all the drugs?
Jesse (24:04):
So many drugs?
We need all the drugs.
Exactly.
You know, and I think we it thatway.
It's always funny'cause I, Ilove the club because you never
know how people are going totake something.
And, and it really we read abook about the blue stockings,
which were, like a, and I'm sureyou both know like a, a very
kind of revolutionary group ofwomen who were writing and
thinking and speaking and havingsalons in a time when that was
(24:25):
not done generally, or it wasfor the men.
And we really, that was such agreat kind of moment of looking
back at writing as not just inindustry, but something that
people engage with and, dealingwith, looking the historical
complications of that and reallythe beauty that came out of it,
and outta these people who werewilling to fight for what they
wanted to talk about, thinkabout, write about, and they
(24:47):
wrote books upon books.
These women individually.
So it was really, I with thatstuff in our club.
It's enjoyable.
Ariana (24:54):
Do you have any top memoirs that you like?
Jesse (24:56):
The one that I often tell people to read is Sally'Manns
Holds Still.
Okay.
She's a photographer and it's anunusual memoir where it deals
with her.
First of all, because she's aphotographer.
It's very visually rich too.
So it's text dense and visuallyrich.
Meryl (25:12):
Visually as in as in she has a lot of pictures in there?
Jesse (25:15):
Exactly.
yep.
Throughout the entire book.
She has and really the, thegreat part is, she talks some
about the craft.
and refining her craft.
And she'll show, in the book sheshows like photos that didn't
quite make the cut.
and you really get the sort ofguidance on the page through her
words.
And then you see it play outwith the visuals as well.
But it's also, it's a great bookbecause it's multifaceted.
It deals with, her historical,considering her family, and
(25:37):
their involvement with enslavedpeople in the American South.
And it really is just it's herlife as a photographer, but also
her life against this massivecontext.
And, and I will say it's, it isa meaty book.
I think it's probably, it mightbe like 500 pages, probably
less, but I think it's at least400.
But it's a book where I really Igo to bat for that every time,
you know, and every time Irecommend and I say to someone,
(25:59):
you have to be ready for someheavy, dark stuff.
You have to be ready for somebeauty and you have to be ready
for just sticking it out.
Cause it's a very intenselywritten book.
and I would also say everyoneshould read not to jump on the
soapbox.
Again, more Fran Lebowitz, butwhat's
Meryl (26:13):
please, Oh yeah
Jesse (26:13):
New yorkers read more, fran.
Meryl (26:15):
Oh God, yes.
Yes.
And she write more.
as she should.
Jesse (26:18):
Please come on.
Meryl (26:20):
It's it's been a long time
Jesse (26:21):
today We're waiting.
We're waiting.
And I would say that because.
Really she's the, in some senseit's opposite of Sally man,
where that, that is a book atlength and Fran can do nothing
at length.
Meryl (26:30):
No.
Jesse (26:30):
She is bite-sized snippets, bon mots, witticisms.
And I think now, particularlyjust again, in my
Meryl (26:37):
own point of view
Jesse (26:38):
we need those critical voices mm-hmm.
Meryl (26:40):
who are not afraid to offend.
Jesse (26:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who aren't afraid to speaktruth to power, and be willing
to call things out, where Ithink a lot of people are a
little more.
Trepidatious now.
there's definitely
Ariana (26:51):
a element of
Meryl (26:53):
fear and anxiety.
something.
something.
Jesse (26:54):
in the air.
Meryl (26:55):
Yeah.
I'm gonna bungle her quote, butone of the quotes that I love by
her is something about peoplenow think that rich people are
smart.
Jesse (27:02):
Anyone who thinks that rich people are smart,
Meryl (27:04):
never met
Jesse (27:04):
anyone
Meryl (27:05):
smart and never met anyone rich.
Ariana (27:06):
Right?
Snaps.
Meryl (27:10):
better
Jesse (27:11):
Snaps
Ariana (27:12):
for that.
Meryl (27:17):
I think one of the things that, that upsets me about AI
every, a lot of things upset meis the idea like of the jobs
that aren't necessarily being acreative writer that are ways to
write and people who have theskillset of writing are going to
really disappear.
And I've had friends say thingslike who cares?
That's not really writinganyway.
(27:38):
But it's very hard to make moneyin this world.
And if you have the skill ofbeing a writer, there aren't
opportunities and some of thesejobs, like writing content.
Going, all of that stuff, goingto AI, it just means that
there's less people with ourskills who can make money and
live well.
Jesse (27:55):
And I, I would argue also, think about it in the long
tail, right?
As time goes on, if there arefewer of those people, what
happens to communication?
how we communicate and speak toeach other, and you,
Meryl (28:06):
if we were not even learning or valuing that as a
human skill
Jesse (28:09):
exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ariana (28:11):
back to grunts and like we're going back down yes.
evolutionary, Yes scale.
Meryl (28:16):
Yes, exactly.
exactly
Jesse (28:18):
there, there's an arc for everything, right?
Yeah.
maybe we're on the downwardtrend.
No.
Ariana (28:22):
I tell my students, like when I was teaching English
composition, cause no one wantsto be there and I'm like, look,
you can use if you want,whatever.
But having your own voice thatkeeps you relevant, yeah.
Don't be replaceable bymachines.
Like you are, you have a storyto tell whatever it is, and
through whatever means you livein this world And yeah,
Meryl (28:44):
Don't give that up.
Don't up.
Exactly
Ariana (28:45):
Don't give that up give that readily.
Jesse (28:47):
Here's the thing is I think, can we wave a magic wand
and make it, make AI not a thinganymore?
No, we can't.
I think, and I thinkrealistically we have to grapple
with what that means for thewriting industry and
entertainment as a whole.
But I think there are, it's.
It's advancing.
But I think about, for oneexample, I remember reading a
story about somebody going to AIand asking, I don't know if it
was GPT or some other service,what do I put on a pizza to make
(29:09):
cheese stick?
and the answer came back wasglue.
Okay.
Perfect.
Okay,
Ariana (29:16):
Yes, that works.
Meryl (29:17):
so we're okay for a for a minute.
Jesse (29:18):
Exactly.
and I think that, it's going toget better, but also I think,
you know what does interest meis how people will engage with
it and work with it.
I've read so many job postingsfor AI, prompt engineers, people
who are communicating with, andfeeding the best possible
linguistics into the ai.
I think that's a temporary job.
I think that's something thatwill, as soon as AI advances
enough, that will go away too.
(29:40):
But I'm curious to see, howpeople use it organizationally.
For example, and let's just,let's spitball for a second
here.
Let's say you're trying tooutline something and you're
stuck, and you're thinking,okay, I have a vague idea for
how I wanna do this I know, thekind of themes I wanna touch on,
the kind of characters I mightemploy for the first, three to
five of them.
And then let's say you bring itto aI and you say.
(30:01):
Okay give me an outline modeledafter Hamlet, but using these
kinds of characters make thesesort of plot points and beats
and things to jump off from andthen it spits something back at
you, potentially.
Would that be serviceable?
I don't know.
But maybe for someone to say,okay, you know what?
Now I have a draft outline.
Do I love it?
(30:21):
No.
Is it perfect?
No.
Did it give me, a recipe forputting glue on pizza in the
middle?
Maybe.
Here's a serviceable documentbased upon plot points of Hamlet
that I can then take and adaptfrom my own uses.
And then write your own work.
By no means, I think like theproblem is in using it solely
for generative writing.
Right.
Because then you get, Ariana, toyour point, the lack of voice.
(30:43):
But I think about a sense ofwhere, using it as that jumping
off point versus the generativelanguage.
Right.
Because really, you get, I meanthey, they said the piece said
something about AI loves to usethe word delve, so everything's
always, you're always delvinginto something.
Which is very dramatic.
Just thinking about differentapplications there I agree.
Where if the tide turns and itis a generative use and a full
(31:04):
scale replacement of jobs.
That's a problem.
And we don't have UBI right now,so so Yeah.
What are people gonna do?
Meryl (31:12):
Right,
Ariana (31:12):
I think also the fear is also' it is taking from other,
from artists' work,
Jesse (31:17):
7 million copyright and work.
Right?
Works that we're in
Ariana (31:20):
so they're, so they're, actually stealings stealing
stuff.
So it's not really generatinganything new.
It's taking from existing stuffand and Remixing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is.
Problematic.
Jesse (31:32):
And I think also, and i'd be curious to hear both of your
points on this or perspectives.
I worry about in a world whereculture gets lazy and good
enough is good enough.
What does that do to high art?.
Meryl (31:47):
think it's all terrible.
Ariana (31:48):
This might be a optimistic point of view, but
taking the movie industry yeah.
As an example.
At this point, Marvel's justchurning out.
out It's a lot of this stuff isgood enough.
Most streaming sites and have tojust be Marvel.
Streaming sites are just likethese movies, these TV shows
that are just underdevelopedthey could be good, but they're
just like, eh, that'll work.
Let's do it.
But then you get Sinners forexample, and it blows up or
(32:11):
Severance, people do react tothings that are actually
stimulating or have a uniquepoint of view.
So I feel like that will stillexist.
Whether these, the gatekeepers,the money people will give money
to these folks that's anotherquestion.
But I think artists will stillmake art, you know, dark ages.
(32:31):
We still, we the renaissanceafter Right.
Meryl (32:34):
I think that there is a desire when we engage with art
to be engaging with otherhumans.
Yeah.
So I just don't see how AI couldactually replace that for and
make us feel feel same way yeah
Ariana (32:46):
There, yeah, there's that loneliness epidemic with
the younger generations andthey're actually talking to AI
someone, was it you were tellingme Meryl, no, my friend was
like, I was on the train and Ijust glanced over at someone's
phone and I didn't mean to readit, but I realized this woman
was or this girl, was texting toan aI bot all her feelings
Meryl (33:06):
yeah I this is happening a lot and it's really weird,
Ariana (33:11):
I have to imagine that it'll backswing in that you
realize you, all you want is toconnect with somebody.
Meryl (33:17):
Or maybe it won't, maybe it'll be better.
Maybe people will love hearingrobot.
Like there will be lessconflict.
No.
All right.
Let's see.
Ariana (33:24):
less conflict because of the robots mean robots yes,
Jesse (33:26):
No, not
Meryl (33:27):
human.
Think the are
Ariana (33:30):
they're gonna create even more division.
Meryl (33:33):
What I mean?
But they'll be like, you arenice to me in in a way that
humans aren't, oh, like theywhat have to deal saying with
the conflict of other actualhumans.
Humans
Jesse (33:40):
But then, it raises the point of is some conflict.
Good?
Right?
Does it push you to grow?
Does it push you to confrontyour, your faults, your
failings, other people's faultsand failing shortcomings?
Meryl (33:49):
I would think so.
so That's
Ariana (33:50):
you can't be, That's why I think it's really hard to be
with somebody who's exactly likeyou.
Right?
Because you, you need that, youneed the tension.
Right.
And
Meryl (33:58):
Whereas
Ariana (33:58):
I think it makes it more interesting.
Makes you think of other things.
Meryl (34:02):
An AI companion, I feel like is just reflect, it's just
just a mirror
Jesse (34:06):
yeah.
And also, to, to your point,like it's this soft of a landing
as you want it to be.
So it's like you could just livein like a marshmallow world of
the AI being nice to you,
Meryl (34:13):
but then you go outside and
Jesse (34:16):
Right.
it's just paroting stuff back toyou
Meryl (34:18):
I think we're gonna learn.
Do people want to grow?
Do people want to think, dopeople wanna communicate, I
guess the next few years?
we'll see.
Jesse (34:25):
I'm really curious about that.
I wanna believe they do.
And I think some portion will,will I think there are some who
maybe won't or don't.
Ariana (34:33):
Yeah.
Jesse (34:34):
But, humanity beautiful complex.
Meryl (34:41):
In one word, how would you your reading life?
Jesse (34:47):
Expensive
Meryl (34:49):
how about your writing life?
Jesse (34:51):
In flux.
Meryl (34:52):
And your weirdest obsession.
Jesse (34:54):
Lately it's getting really good at bowling.
Meryl (34:57):
I love that.
I love
Jesse (34:58):
I joined a social league a year ago.
It has consumed my Life lifethat a I bought a ball.
What does that tell You is there
Meryl (35:04):
You are in there.
Ariana (35:11):
It's all right to love book clubs or It's all right to
hate book clubs.
Jesse (35:15):
Yes it's all right to learn from your book club.
club It's all right to push backagainst the robots.
Yeah.
it's all right to tikTok.
it, right
Ariana (35:23):
Question
Jesse (35:24):
Question mark.dot.
Dot dot dot it's all right tostrike out and try Again.
Meryl (35:29):
ooh.
Yeah.
Mm.
Ariana (35:32):
it's all right that your weekends are sacred.
To
Jesse (35:35):
keep your Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
Ariana (35:38):
you can check out.
It's All Write on most streamingplatforms.
So Apple Spotify, Amazon.
All the all the places.
We release new episodes everyother Tuesday, so every two
Tuesdays you can follow us onInstagram at it's All right pod.
And you can also email us atit's all right pod@gmail.com.
(36:02):
And that's w right spelledW-R-I-T-E.
Meryl (36:06):
Thanks for listening.
See you next time
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