May 27, 2025 • 29 mins
Ariana and Meryl sit down with Maisy Card, award-winning author of These Ghosts Are Family. They share takes on first person narratives, audiobooks, day jobs, dialect, favorite ways to procrastinate writing, and much more.
---
Maisy Card is the author of the novel These Ghosts Are Family, which won an American Book Award, the 2021 OCM Bocas Prize in fiction and was a finalist for the PEN/Hemingway Award for Debut Novel, The Center for Fiction First Novel Prize, and the LA Times Art Seidenbaum Award for First Fiction. Her writing has appeared in The Paris Review Daily, AGNI, The New York Times, Guernica, and other publications. Maisy was born in Portmore, Jamaica, and raised in Queens, NY. She’s currently a public librarian and lives in Newark, NJ.
Find These Ghosts are Family at Bookshop.org, Simon & Schuster, or at your local bookstore or library.
Listen to Maisy's Audbile Original story in Lover’s Rock.
Follow Maisy on Twitter @dracm and Instagram @librarylovefest.
Keep an eye out for Maisy's next novel Difficult Patrons set to be released in 2026.
---
Follow us on Instagram @itasllwritepod.
Email us at itsallwritepod@gmail.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maisy (00:00):
if you're, from a colonized country, especially if
you're black, especially ifyou're affected by slavery or
like the Holocaust or some masshistorical, catastrophe., The
records aren't accurate.
People have a lot of trauma andpain and they don't like to say
things plainly.
They like to sometimes cover itup in, in like myth or something
(00:20):
more palatable.
Part of what you do is get tothat subtext to get to the
truth.
And, I think that's always whatstorytelling is to me.
Ariana (00:33):
i'm Ariana McLean.
Meryl (00:34):
I'm Meryl Branch Mc Tiernan
Ariana (00:36):
you're listening to.
It's All Right.
A podcast about the writing lifeand those who live it.
Meryl (00:41):
On today's podcast, we'll be talking with Maisie card, an
award-winning novelist andlibrarian who currently lives in
Newark, New Jersey.
Her debut novel is called TheseGhosts are Family and she's been
my friend for 18 years.
Maisy (00:55):
Thanks for having me.
Ariana (00:56):
Would it be weird if we, if I started asking about your
friendship and how that began orblossomed?
Meryl (01:03):
Sure.
Maisy (01:05):
well, I was looking for a place to live.
I was at the MFA program forBrooklyn College, and commuting
from Queens was like verystressful.
And I had a childhood friend, asa friend that I've known since
seventh grade who was friendswith Meryl, independently of me.
Meryl, was in like a kind of afive bedroom apartment, it had
(01:26):
two little small rooms and theyusually rented out two, the two
small rooms to one person.
But the friend talked her intoletting you know, us both rent
each room.
Yeah, so that's how I, we movedin and became roommates
Meryl (01:38):
And um, when Kathleen was trying to sell me on the idea of
bringing Maisie in, she waslike, she loves cats and books
and writing.
And then I think I didn't, wedidn't know at the time.
We both loved drinking.
So we started going to the barevery night, became regulars at
several bars.
Maisy (01:58):
Yeah.
And we've continued ourdrinking, reading books, cat
loving friendships since then.
Ariana (02:02):
this is the five year anniversary of the publication.
Oh yeah.
Of these ghosts are families.
So congratulations.
Maisy (02:08):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Ariana (02:09):
How does it feel that your baby's now like a
5-year-old in the world?
Maisy (02:16):
It's still, I'm happy that it's still like out there,
that people still seem to bereading it and talking about it.
Which I didn't expect.
And yeah, after a while youkinda get sick of it, just
because it.
It's, it was so long ago thatyou start to forget, what you
were thinking and what you weredoing when you were writing the
book.
But, I'll come back to liking itagain.
Meryl (02:38):
Do you wanna tell your audience what it's about, the
book?
Maisy (02:40):
Sure.
It's a, These Ghosts are Familyis a family.
It's a family saga, Jamaicanfamily saga.
It follows the Paisley familybetween Jamaica, England and New
York over maybe about 400 years.
But the brunt of it takes placein present day New York.
The inciting incident of thenovel is this character, Abel
(03:02):
Paisley getting ready to confessthat when he was younger he
faked his own death and he'sbeen living under his dead
friend's identity for threedecades.
And so the rest of the book,it's more of a novel in stories
and it follows a differentrelative or somebody who was
affected in some indirect way byhis or some other family
members' decisions.
Ariana (03:23):
I love a novel and stories, that's my jam.
But also I feel like you playaround a lot with structure,
form perspective and point ofview in all the stories.
And for, a, I would say it'slike an average sized novel.
I there's a lot of variation.
Where do you think your conceptof storytelling either comes
from or what inspires you to orlike what do you think story is?
Maisy (03:46):
I think this book was me figuring out how to tell a
story.
experimenting with how to tell astory, what constitutes a story,
what constitutes a satisfyingstory.
And I think for me, I am veryinfluenced by like memories and
other people's storytelling, alot of it was inspired by
(04:08):
stories that my family has toldme.
That's something I was alwaysfascinated by, when, especially
like family history andgenealogy, it's like figuring
out the real story based onhearing the bits from all these
other people and then piecing ittogether and getting at the
truth.
So that's what I wanted the bookto feel like., You know, That's
(04:29):
how you learn about familyhistory.
Especially if you're from acolonized country, especially if
you're black, especially ifyou're affected by slavery or
like the Holocaust or some masshistorical, catastrophe.
The records aren't accurate.
People have a lot of trauma andpain and they don't like to say
things plainly.
They like to sometimes cover itup in, myth or something more
(04:51):
palatable.
Part of what you do is get tothat subtext to get to the
truth.
And, I think that's always whatstorytelling is to me.
Meryl (04:59):
I know there was one story in there that you used to
call the cop story, I think it'scalled like what The lamb and
Maisy (05:04):
"the lamb or the lion." Yeah.
Meryl (05:05):
And that you were working on for since college, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How did you finally crack thatstory
Maisy (05:11):
I think having a deadline helped.
It started out as an essay.
That I wrote about my fatherwhen I was in college.
And then over the years itbecame more fictionalized during
the MFAI turned it into a story.
Yeah.
And I just was never satisfiedwith it.
I probably have I dunno, like30, 40 versions of that one
chapter or story as it startedout.
We sold the book with a versionof that story.
(05:35):
But it bothered me, I just, inmy mind I was like, this is so
not good.
This is not good.
This is not good.
And so it did help to have aneditor actually look at it
Christine Pride was my editorfor this book.
During the editing process, Ijust told myself I have this
deadline, I have to figure itout, or it's gonna be in print.
So I just had to keep going.
And I think I was like,, Iremember emerging, just covered
(05:57):
in sweat when I actuallyfinished that story.
But I don't know, I just, Ithink just knowing that I had to
figure it out helped.
Ariana (06:06):
I'm curious, I know you are working on a second project,
how has working on this new bookdiffered or what have you
brought from the firstexperience to the second
experience?
Maisy (06:18):
This is a bit different because I think this is a more
linear story.
I think this book is literallymore about me, even though it's
still very fictionalized becauseI don't think I could write a
straight true to life story.
I think it you make up stuff toamuse yourself so, yeah.
But I think this is more basedon like real experience, the
linear novel.
it's in the first person.
(06:38):
and I hate writing in the firstperson, and it's been a struggle
for me, but I
Meryl (06:42):
why do you hate writing in the first person?
Maisy (06:44):
I don't know.
I was just like, who cares aboutmy dumb voice?
You know what I mean?
I, I really, I enjoy thirdperson I enjoy or I enjoy doing
first person in a voice that'svery different than mine.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'm an 18th centuryslave.
You know what I mean?
It's but it feels
Meryl (06:58):
too personal when you're saying that it feels too
personal.
And I'm like,
Maisy (07:01):
oh, this can't be interesting when it's me, when
it's just my voice.
this novel I think is a bit morehumorous.
I think for me, the humor iswhat makes it readable, and
helps me with the like, cringefactor of having to write in my
own voice.
Meryl (07:15):
I only write in the first person most.
I don't wanna say only, but 95%.
Writing for me is getting thestuff from my head out, so it
just is natural to me And I alsoprefer reading first person.
I like the feeling of being veryintimate and very close to
someone.
So I feel like that's what Iwanna put on the page too.
(07:37):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (07:42):
So I know in this book, and in other writings of yours,
you use dialect and you write itout like phonetically, and some
people love it, some people hateit.
What do you think that brings toa piece?
Maisy (07:57):
I feel like I've been trying not to use the word
authenticity, but I guess that'swhat it brings.
It just makes sense for Jamaicanpeople to talk Jamaican, so it's
it's, why would people be inJamaican, not be speaking
Jamaican?
It's, It's a reflection of howthe world has changed where.
We don't all have to reformulateourselves to make ourselves
palatable to the American gazeanymore.
And I think it helps people getmore invested into the world of
(08:21):
the characters, when theyrealize that it is a world
that's different than their own.
Ariana (08:25):
A term that I came across when I I was teaching
English composition and I was ata university that has a lot of
first generation Americans andfirst generation college
students, and trans languagingis like a big word.
How
Maisy (08:41):
do you, How do you uh, define that?
Ariana (08:42):
As I understand it, it's utilizing your native language
with English being able to gobetween a Spanglish for example.
Oh yeah.
Or
Maisy (08:51):
I think we used to call it creol creolization of
language.
Ariana (08:55):
Yeah.
And it's just, and I think it'ssimilarly like just being able
to be your most authentic selfallowing the characters to be
authentically themselves withouthaving to translate everything.
'cause a lot of times like evenwhen I'm reading, if things
aren't translated and it's alanguage, I don't know usually
you can pick it up throughcontext clues and also,
Meryl (09:15):
or look it up
Ariana (09:15):
or look it up and it makes you more involved in the
story and in the culture or theplace of the story.
And it's crazy'cause this ideaof American culture is, was
crafted.
It, it didn't exist like whitesupremacy is something that has
been intentionally created anddistributed.
Maisy (09:38):
Yeah.
Like, That's why I wrote thisbook.
It was just so bizarre that, Igrew up in New York.
I grew up in Queens.
I grew up with people whoseparents who either weren't born
here like me, or their parentsweren't from here.
And it's like we were themajority, but at the same time,
you go to school and it's likeyou don't exist, right.
And there's no nobody aroundyou.
(09:59):
Outside of the, those cultureshave any idea, like anything
about your culture, but you knoweverything about them, I noticed
in workshops sometimes.
I'm a librarian, but I havetaught a lot of workshops.
People still will italicizeforeign words and I am trying to
encourage them not to do thatanymore.
Meryl (10:20):
Do you wanna tell us about how you got your agent?
Maisy (10:23):
So it was a non-traditional way, I would
say.
I don't write essays very oftenbut I did write an essay for
Lenny Letter, the defunctpublication, Lena
Meryl (10:35):
Dunham's newsletter.
Maisy (10:36):
Yeah.
I had, I wrote an essay.
It was about why I haven'tintroduced my boyfriend, who's
now my husband to my mother andMonica Odom, who's my agent,
read it and and she just emailedme and asked me what I was
working on.
So I had maybe half, maybe noteven a full, maybe half of these
(10:58):
Ghosts are family written out.
I sent her those five chaptersand we had a phone call and she
agreed to sign me.
Oh
Ariana (11:07):
yeah.
How'd that feel?
Maisy (11:09):
Good, good.
I feel like bad saying it'causeI was like, oh, it was very easy
for me.
I didn't send out any query
Meryl (11:14):
dream.
I've sent up 55 queries on thisbook.
37 on the last
Ariana (11:20):
I mean, everyone says it's a numbers game slash a,
it's a roulette.
Maisy (11:23):
Yeah.
It's interesting because withtrying to publish my first short
story I sent out I think that Igot like 66 rejections for that
one story.
Meryl (11:34):
Which was the first one that got published?
Estelle's Black Guy.
Oh, that was the first, okay.
Yeah.
Maisy (11:38):
It's I think rejections, yeah.
Part of the game.
I do, I think it did becomeeasier trying to get published
once I yeah.
Thought of it as a numbers game.
I was like, let's see if I canget up to 30, let's see if I get
up to 40, 50, 60 submissions,
Ariana (11:51):
yeah.
There's a, some writer was like,I don't count the publications.
I just try and get to a hundredrejections a year.
Maisy (11:59):
Yeah.
What I noticed like trying toadapt from being an MFA to
writing on your own.
Was there were some writers whojust got straight praise, like I
had never been in a workshopwith them.
Where everybody wasn't likeglowing and gushing about their
story.
And then that person neverpublished a thing and I've never
heard from them as a fictionwriter again.
And that's not a criticism, butI just wonder, how much they got
(12:20):
used to that praise.
And when they started sendingout a story, they got 10
rejections.
They were just like, nevermind.
Okay.
I think a lot of people give upso quickly.
And it took me like years, Ithink it was what year did I get
published?
2018?
No, 2, 20 20.
I officially got published, Iguess 2018 I got signed.
But yeah, I finished my MFA in2006 oh no, in 2009.
(12:41):
2009.
Yeah.
I started in 2006.
It's been years.
It's a long, it's a long, youhave to play
Ariana (12:48):
the
Maisy (12:48):
long game.
Ariana (12:49):
what sustains you,
Maisy (12:50):
I think it's like a nagging feeling.
Even like when I'm like, oh, Isuck, give I'm not gonna do this
anymore.
Something always pulls you backin'cause you do feel like this
is a part of your identity.
And it does feel strange not tohave a project, not to have a
goal, not to have plans to everwrite again.
I don't write regularly.
I don't like writing every day.
I had not disciplined, I'm a bigprocrastinator.
(13:12):
I'm very lazy, but I do knowthat I have to put something out
there.
Like I have to have something toshow for myself.
Sometimes it feels like you'redoing nothing, it comes out to
something eventually.
Ariana (13:24):
Do you have to when you do write, do you have to have a
certain set up?
Are you a hand writer?
Do you write on the computer?
Are you a music listener?
I think
Maisy (13:33):
I try all those things right now.
I think it helps to do thePomodoro thing.
25 minutes on, five minutes off,if I have a real deadline.
Like I'll honestly just lay inbed like a slob all day and just
write and not shower or eat ordo anything until I finish, but
I think I'm working my way upto, taking it seriously and I
don't know, having a routine,
Meryl (13:53):
how do you find the day job of Librarian?
How does that work as a writer?
Maisy (13:58):
It doesn't, I think it helps me in terms of anxiety.
Because you
Meryl (14:02):
have somewhere to go.
Something to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm
Maisy (14:03):
like, I can't, I can't beat myself up too much or get
too much fomo or feel like toocompetitive.
'cause I was like, I still havethis other world that I'm a part
of that I feel grounded in.
So I don't have to fully committo being a writer, which sounds
bad.
But I think I would just be tooneurotic if I was just writing
all the time.
'cause I have, I have taken timeoff and just focused on writing.
(14:27):
But I still, 90% of my time isspent in bed with my cats and
drinking with Mar you know, it'snot spent writing, so I just
Right.
No, I feel like
Meryl (14:34):
you're may be actually more productive when you have a
job.
Maisy (14:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I have to like, realizeI have to really use like
weekends, vacations and thinkabout how I'm gonna get a
project done.
Ariana (14:51):
One thing that I thought when I first met you, Maisie,
was that you are like a superresearcher and so tell me about
how research plays a role, inyour life or your process for
writing,
Maisy (15:04):
Originally when I went to library school, I wanted to be
an archivist, you can't find anyjobs doing that.
So I switched to publiclibrarianship.
But, I love research.
That story that we mentioned,"The Lamb or the Lion" it's set
around the time when HaileSelassie, the emperor of
Ethiopia, who's considered, thereincarnation of Christ for
Rastafarians visited Jamaica forthe first time.
(15:25):
And so, I got obsessed with thatwhen I read about it.
And I read so many books onRastafarism probably like 10 to
15.
It's just fascinating and itreally changed the direction of
the book.
So yeah, it's, even though thisbook that I'm writing now
started as like auto fiction ina way, and it's not anymore, I
wouldn't say, but it stillsomehow involves like constant
(15:47):
research.
Meryl (15:49):
Like as far as what was happening in a certain time that
you're writing about or justyeah, the bigger world.
The context.
Maisy (15:55):
Yeah, exactly.
'cause it's part of it extendsinto during COVID, And thinking
about the significant, thingsthat were happening during that
time, pre covid.
I did some hurricane researchand like various things.
One of the things I think myeditor had said was oh, more
atmosphere with like,'cause it'sset in New Jersey and it's set
in, part of it is NewarkPatterson and you take for
granted the spaces you walkthrough every day.
(16:18):
So it's like actually having togo back to this park that I
always walk through and look atthis bust of JFK and like
describe it and then think ofresearch, like why it's there,
who founded it, if there'ssomething I want to bring into
the book, all that stuff.
Meryl (16:33):
I feel like living in New York City, there's a lot of
assumptions that like, everyoneshould just know this.
And I feel like there is aquestion of how much to put in
about place,
Maisy (16:43):
especially when you're in a city, it's it's everything is
so dense.
And there's so much to take inall at once that you miss
everything.
And then, when you're writingyour job is to hone in on this
specific detail.
So you have to go back sometimesover those real places and break
everything down and really.
Kind of get the whole picturefor yourself before you decide
what to isolate in the, in yourwriting.
Meryl (17:05):
Right.
Because I feel as people, we allnotice certain things we're just
the things that we're obsessedwith, things we care about.
And I think it, it can feeloverwhelming to try to show
everything or think that youneed to show everything
Maisy (17:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
But you also have to be careful.
When I'm showing Newark and I'mlike, I'm not even from Newark,
i've lived there for 14, 15years.
It's like what version of thisplace are you going to represent
to the public who aren'tfamiliar with this place, have
only heard bad things.
I wanna, right.
Meryl (17:32):
You're a representative of Newark on some level.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maisy (17:35):
It's like you wanna be truthful, but you also don't
want to play into stigmas andstereotypes and things like
that.
Representation matters.
So that's a big responsibility.
And then it's also likeauthenticity again.
I'm being careful about goingback over different spaces.
Getting the names.
There, there are the things thatthey're called, and they're the
things that they're called bypeople who are from there.
(17:56):
Right.
And you have to make sure thatyou're using the right language,
right?
Yes.
Meryl (17:59):
The cool thing is though, that your character isn't from
there.
So it's that's, yeah.
She's an outsider.
Yeah.
Maisy (18:04):
Yeah.
She just moved there.
Ariana (18:10):
I decided to do an MFA on a whim.
I was working at a job where Iwas in an office overseeing
commercial animation and therewas a lot of waiting I was like
writing in between because I wasbored and I was like, oh, maybe
I'll just apply to grad school.
Meryl (18:26):
I also was on a whim, but I, after seeing Maisie's
experience, I definitely didn'twanna do it.
I,
Maisy (18:32):
not that I had a bad experience I think I had a lot
of anxiety issues.
And I think I I remember therewas like a year where I didn't
do workshop.
And so Merrill had a writinggroup with some people in Park
Slope.
So I joined that writing groupfor the year that I was not in
workshop,
Meryl (18:51):
I think that things have changed a little bit since then,
maybe.
Yeah.
Maisy (18:55):
I don't know.
I definitely think we're moreaware of how destructive
workshop culture could be to thecreative process, and I think
people are smarter than theyused to be.
We know what a microaggressionis now.
We didn't know what that was.
10, 15 years ago, nobody hadever heard of such a thing.
So people said all kinds ofcrazy things.
But yeah, I think things havereally improved probably.
Ariana (19:17):
so what do you.
Think makes a good workshop.
Meryl (19:21):
as a participant and as a teacher?
Maisy (19:24):
I think as a teacher, the thing that has frustrated me the
most is when people aren'tgenerous with each other.
And I've only had this happenlike in one workshop that I
taught in, but it was verybizarre I think before I applied
to MFA programs, everybody like,made those articles about oh,
it's just like professionalnaval gazing and to made it seem
(19:45):
like everybody would be likenarcissistic and out for
themselves.
But it really, it rarelyhappens.
I think most of the workshops,especially the non-credit
workshops that I've taken andtaught have people have been
extremely generous and kind.
I personally like not doing theIowa method, I guess as it's
taught, as like using criticalresponse process, by Liz
Luhrman, which is another method
Meryl (20:06):
Can you explain to those who might not know the Iowa
Method, what that,
Maisy (20:10):
As far as I was taught, like the Iowa method is
everybody reads the submissionbeforehand and then the author
of the piece remains silentwhile people just say whatever
random thing pops into theirheads.
And then at the end, the authorgets like a few minutes to speak
or clear things up.
But it's pointless because thediscussion is over.
(20:30):
So there's, clearing things upis not really important or
useful at the end.
Critical response process wascreated by a dancer,
choreographer, Liz Luhrman.
And it's a way to get feedbackon any artistic form.
You're actually asking questionsto the workshop that you want
answers to.
The workshop gets to askclarifying questions to you or,
(20:52):
they say questions withoutopinions and opinions are last
in a critical response processworkshop.
And you actually have to askpermission to give your opinion
on certain things.
So I have to be like, Ariana,would you like to hear my
opinion on your use of, lyricallanguage?
And I'd be like, no, yeah, I'mgood on that.
(21:12):
You know what I mean?
And you it, it saves a lot oftime and it lets you guide the
workshop towards feedback that'srelevant to you.
But I think the important partis to get used to workshop
that's not driven by complimentsor insults.
So it, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be like, oh, an a co a
compliment sandwich or anything.
You could just focus on what wasmemorable about the piece.
(21:34):
And that's not necessarily bador good.
It's, without an opinion, it'sjust, it forces you to be like,
put a little distance, I think.
Meryl (21:41):
Yeah.
I think the important thing istrying to help the writer get to
where they wanna go, not whereyou'd like to see them go.
Maisy (21:47):
Yeah.
Meryl (21:48):
I think a lot of people go in there and they're like,
this should be this.
It's but I'm not writing that.
Yeah.
Fuck you.
Maisy (21:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
'Cause it's I don't wanna hearyour feedback on my Jamaican
patois, like, when you've never,you don't know these people and
you don't understand theculture.
And I think that was a lot ofwhat old workshop was.
It was like, oh, why don't youjust have them not talk that
way?
And I was like, that's not theoption.
Ariana (22:13):
I think we should talk about the importance of writing
communities,
Maisy (22:17):
I think a lot of people end up going to MFA programs
because they think it'sdifficult to find that community
without formal education.
And part of the reason I wantedto go back to librarianship is
that I wanted to bring like freearts to, different communities
so that it's not a,'cause you,it does MFA programs do skew
(22:37):
wealthier?
Yeah.
A lot of people go in debtobviously to, to do them, but a
lot of people who are in them,are in them because they're
having somebody pay for them.
And I think it would be helpfulfor people to get the same
quality.
Same community, same education,but without paying anything.
I do want to offer moreworkshops through public
libraries fiction workshops,non-fiction, creative writing
(22:58):
workshops.
So that's important to me.
Once I got published, I think Ifound like a bigger writing
community than, honestly, thanwhen I was writing on my own.
Meryl (23:09):
Do you feel though that these people, and are these
people?
Are they like real writingfriends?
Oh, wait, what
Maisy (23:18):
people, the community, like
Meryl (23:19):
the people that you've met after being published, do
you feel like you talk to themabout writing or you're more
like in their social world?
Maisy (23:27):
I would say most people, it's like a kind of a
professional connection.
I don't know if that soundsmean.
It's but we don't really sharework the way that you and I
share work or, like the peopleI, we still occasionally share
with people in our writinggroup.
Meryl (23:40):
That's the thing I've always been dreaming about to be
like in the the parties of thewriters, but I don't know how
many of them ex exist anymore.
But you found some, but there's,yeah, there's a lot of,
Maisy (23:50):
Definitely a lot of partying.
People invite you to things, butYeah, I don't always go in and
then when I go, I feel awkwardand I'm like, why did I go
outside?
This is, Maybe that's why I stayas a librarian, because I think
a lot of the things that you'resupposed to enjoy.
As a writer are like terrifyingto me.
Like the idea of going on aretreat or whatever you call it,
like a residency or a residency,I'm like, I'm gonna be outside
(24:12):
of my bed for an undisclosedamount of time and with nobody
to talk to, with some randompeople in a house.
And it just doesn't feel good tome, so I just don't apply to
things.
Yeah.
I think literary citizenship isincredibly important, when
you're a writer, and I thinkthat's also something that
people don't get prepared for.
(24:34):
When you're in the MFA, it'slike when you have a book
published, then you have toyou're begging for blurbs and
then people are gonna startbegging you for blurbs and it's
you're doing in conversationsyou have to be a.
You have to read a lot ofpeople's books and do a lot of
unpaid labor.
Meryl (24:49):
What do you think about the fact that your publisher,
Simon and Schuster, has gottenrid of the blurb?
Maisy (24:53):
Oh, I think it's great.
It's a lot of work for people.
It also makes you feel badsometimes'cause you're like,
Meryl (24:58):
oh, they got a better blurb, or no.
Maisy (25:00):
Yeah, when I asked people in the MFA program who I
actually knew and were in myyear who had been published,
none of them did it.
Meryl (25:07):
They said no, or they, or
Maisy (25:08):
I never heard the response or they didn't respond.
My publisher didn't give thedetails.
But, I just got, these are thepeople who said yes to blurbs
and they were never the peoplethat I expected.
And so you feel some type of wayabout that.
Right.
You know what I mean?
So
Meryl (25:22):
And that's not a good way to feel when your book is
getting published.
You wanna feel loved andsupported.
Yeah.
Maisy (25:27):
So you're like, oh, these people never believed in me to
begin with.
So I feel like it's, yeah,there's a lot of opportunity to
take things personally.
And I think getting rid ofblurbs helps, takes that off the
table.
Meryl (25:42):
Is there anything you're reading now that you are excited
about?
Maisy (25:46):
I've gotten really into audio books, which I never had
any interest in.
Ariana (25:50):
I don't mind an audiobook'cause I'm also a slow
reader.
Also, some are performed reallywell.
Maisy (25:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ariana (25:57):
Meryl hates them.
Meryl (25:58):
I do hate them.
Maisy (25:58):
Yeah.
I read them, I read the book andlisten to the audiobook at the
same time.
On a high, faster speed.
Oh wow.
So now I feel like a geniusbecause I can finish a book in
two hours.
Like a YouTube video onproductivity.
Meryl (26:11):
So then you're speed reading.
Maisy (26:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're reading it faster, butyou still like, absorb
everything.
'cause you're reading it andlistening.
Ariana (26:17):
It's like s what is it called?
Sensory deprivation.
It's I am only in this story.
Yeah, I hear it.
I'm reading it.
I see it.
Maisy (26:25):
Yeah.
Ariana (26:26):
Oh man, that's crazy.
Maisy (26:29):
Oh yeah.
I have a, I have to write aromance story for this audible
anthology.
Oh, it's called Lover's Rock.
It was edited by the CalabashInternational F estival.
So it's seven love stories byJamaican writers.
Ooh,
Meryl (26:42):
so it's available on Audible?
Maisy (26:43):
Audible.
It's a available on audible.
Oh.
See, lover's rock.
Rock,
Ariana (26:46):
now I'm curious about that.
I'm like, how was writing for anaudible specific story?
Maisy (26:52):
It was hard just because we had to write a romance, and
that's not my genre, but it wasfun to push yourself to do
something that you don'tnormally do.
It's like I had to find a way tomake it fun for me.
Um,
Meryl (27:02):
And you wrote it just the same way as if someone was gonna
read it?
Maisy (27:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Ariana (27:06):
So it wasn't like written like a play?
Maisy (27:08):
No it was, it's just a short story, but you do have to
keep in mind that an actress isgoing to read it out loud.
Ariana (27:14):
Did you get to pick the actress?
Maisy (27:16):
No.
They picked, but she was great.
We have a similar background.
Her name is Sandra Oakley.
I think she was in one Love theBob Marley movie.
Ariana (27:22):
Oh, okay.
Maisy (27:23):
Yeah.
And she's from Queens too, cool.
Ariana (27:26):
All right.
Shout out to Queens.
We got two queens, Queens ladieshere.
Meryl (27:36):
Is there one last thing you wanna leave our audience
with?
Maisy (27:39):
Look for my new book in 2026.
Meryl (27:41):
Oh yes.
Oh yeah.
What's the title?
Maisy (27:43):
I don't know if I'm allowed to say it yet.
I already posted it online.
So d Difficult patrons.
Does that phrase mean anythingto other people who are not
librarians?
Meryl (27:51):
mean, I would assume it's like a euphemism for fucking
really bad.
Maisy (27:55):
Yeah.
It's just like a library phrase.
The librarians phrase.
Like for for bad patrons.
Ariana (28:01):
I think of also patrons to the arts, which like board
members and stuff that Yeah.
Right.
That control the money andcontrol the art.
Meryl (28:08):
I think it sounds funny, like it puts you, it prepares
you that it's gonna be likeskewering.
Maisy (28:14):
Okay.
Good.
Ariana (28:15):
Yeah.
It feels like it could be alittle satirical, little, a
little I dunno, nudge, nudge,wink, wink.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, that's, let's wrap onthis episode.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Meryl (28:34):
We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday.
Ariana (28:37):
If you wanna check out Maisie's work, we have a link to
her website and where to bothget her book and listen to that
audio special.
In the show notes.
Meryl (28:49):
You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod
and you can drop us a line at,isallwritepod@gmail.com.
Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.
Ariana (29:00):
Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things.
Wherever you get your podcasts,Tune in next time.
if you're, from a colonized country, especially if
you're black, especially ifyou're affected by slavery or
like the Holocaust or some masshistorical, catastrophe., The
records aren't accurate.
People have a lot of trauma andpain and they don't like to say
things plainly.
They like to sometimes cover itup in, in like myth or something
(00:20):
more palatable.
Part of what you do is get tothat subtext to get to the
truth.
And, I think that's always whatstorytelling is to me.
Ariana (00:33):
i'm Ariana McLean.
Meryl (00:34):
I'm Meryl Branch Mc Tiernan
Ariana (00:36):
you're listening to.
It's All Right.
A podcast about the writing lifeand those who live it.
Meryl (00:41):
On today's podcast, we'll be talking with Maisie card, an
award-winning novelist andlibrarian who currently lives in
Newark, New Jersey.
Her debut novel is called TheseGhosts are Family and she's been
my friend for 18 years.
Maisy (00:55):
Thanks for having me.
Ariana (00:56):
Would it be weird if we, if I started asking about your
friendship and how that began orblossomed?
Meryl (01:03):
Sure.
Maisy (01:05):
well, I was looking for a place to live.
I was at the MFA program forBrooklyn College, and commuting
from Queens was like verystressful.
And I had a childhood friend, asa friend that I've known since
seventh grade who was friendswith Meryl, independently of me.
Meryl, was in like a kind of afive bedroom apartment, it had
(01:26):
two little small rooms and theyusually rented out two, the two
small rooms to one person.
But the friend talked her intoletting you know, us both rent
each room.
Yeah, so that's how I, we movedin and became roommates
Meryl (01:38):
And um, when Kathleen was trying to sell me on the idea of
bringing Maisie in, she waslike, she loves cats and books
and writing.
And then I think I didn't, wedidn't know at the time.
We both loved drinking.
So we started going to the barevery night, became regulars at
several bars.
Maisy (01:58):
Yeah.
And we've continued ourdrinking, reading books, cat
loving friendships since then.
Ariana (02:02):
this is the five year anniversary of the publication.
Oh yeah.
Of these ghosts are families.
So congratulations.
Maisy (02:08):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Ariana (02:09):
How does it feel that your baby's now like a
5-year-old in the world?
Maisy (02:16):
It's still, I'm happy that it's still like out there,
that people still seem to bereading it and talking about it.
Which I didn't expect.
And yeah, after a while youkinda get sick of it, just
because it.
It's, it was so long ago thatyou start to forget, what you
were thinking and what you weredoing when you were writing the
book.
But, I'll come back to liking itagain.
Meryl (02:38):
Do you wanna tell your audience what it's about, the
book?
Maisy (02:40):
Sure.
It's a, These Ghosts are Familyis a family.
It's a family saga, Jamaicanfamily saga.
It follows the Paisley familybetween Jamaica, England and New
York over maybe about 400 years.
But the brunt of it takes placein present day New York.
The inciting incident of thenovel is this character, Abel
(03:02):
Paisley getting ready to confessthat when he was younger he
faked his own death and he'sbeen living under his dead
friend's identity for threedecades.
And so the rest of the book,it's more of a novel in stories
and it follows a differentrelative or somebody who was
affected in some indirect way byhis or some other family
members' decisions.
Ariana (03:23):
I love a novel and stories, that's my jam.
But also I feel like you playaround a lot with structure,
form perspective and point ofview in all the stories.
And for, a, I would say it'slike an average sized novel.
I there's a lot of variation.
Where do you think your conceptof storytelling either comes
from or what inspires you to orlike what do you think story is?
Maisy (03:46):
I think this book was me figuring out how to tell a
story.
experimenting with how to tell astory, what constitutes a story,
what constitutes a satisfyingstory.
And I think for me, I am veryinfluenced by like memories and
other people's storytelling, alot of it was inspired by
(04:08):
stories that my family has toldme.
That's something I was alwaysfascinated by, when, especially
like family history andgenealogy, it's like figuring
out the real story based onhearing the bits from all these
other people and then piecing ittogether and getting at the
truth.
So that's what I wanted the bookto feel like., You know, That's
(04:29):
how you learn about familyhistory.
Especially if you're from acolonized country, especially if
you're black, especially ifyou're affected by slavery or
like the Holocaust or some masshistorical, catastrophe.
The records aren't accurate.
People have a lot of trauma andpain and they don't like to say
things plainly.
They like to sometimes cover itup in, myth or something more
(04:51):
palatable.
Part of what you do is get tothat subtext to get to the
truth.
And, I think that's always whatstorytelling is to me.
Meryl (04:59):
I know there was one story in there that you used to
call the cop story, I think it'scalled like what The lamb and
Maisy (05:04):
"the lamb or the lion." Yeah.
Meryl (05:05):
And that you were working on for since college, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How did you finally crack thatstory
Maisy (05:11):
I think having a deadline helped.
It started out as an essay.
That I wrote about my fatherwhen I was in college.
And then over the years itbecame more fictionalized during
the MFAI turned it into a story.
Yeah.
And I just was never satisfiedwith it.
I probably have I dunno, like30, 40 versions of that one
chapter or story as it startedout.
We sold the book with a versionof that story.
(05:35):
But it bothered me, I just, inmy mind I was like, this is so
not good.
This is not good.
This is not good.
And so it did help to have aneditor actually look at it
Christine Pride was my editorfor this book.
During the editing process, Ijust told myself I have this
deadline, I have to figure itout, or it's gonna be in print.
So I just had to keep going.
And I think I was like,, Iremember emerging, just covered
(05:57):
in sweat when I actuallyfinished that story.
But I don't know, I just, Ithink just knowing that I had to
figure it out helped.
Ariana (06:06):
I'm curious, I know you are working on a second project,
how has working on this new bookdiffered or what have you
brought from the firstexperience to the second
experience?
Maisy (06:18):
This is a bit different because I think this is a more
linear story.
I think this book is literallymore about me, even though it's
still very fictionalized becauseI don't think I could write a
straight true to life story.
I think it you make up stuff toamuse yourself so, yeah.
But I think this is more basedon like real experience, the
linear novel.
it's in the first person.
(06:38):
and I hate writing in the firstperson, and it's been a struggle
for me, but I
Meryl (06:42):
why do you hate writing in the first person?
Maisy (06:44):
I don't know.
I was just like, who cares aboutmy dumb voice?
You know what I mean?
I, I really, I enjoy thirdperson I enjoy or I enjoy doing
first person in a voice that'svery different than mine.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'm an 18th centuryslave.
You know what I mean?
It's but it feels
Meryl (06:58):
too personal when you're saying that it feels too
personal.
And I'm like,
Maisy (07:01):
oh, this can't be interesting when it's me, when
it's just my voice.
this novel I think is a bit morehumorous.
I think for me, the humor iswhat makes it readable, and
helps me with the like, cringefactor of having to write in my
own voice.
Meryl (07:15):
I only write in the first person most.
I don't wanna say only, but 95%.
Writing for me is getting thestuff from my head out, so it
just is natural to me And I alsoprefer reading first person.
I like the feeling of being veryintimate and very close to
someone.
So I feel like that's what Iwanna put on the page too.
(07:37):
Mm-hmm.
Ariana (07:42):
So I know in this book, and in other writings of yours,
you use dialect and you write itout like phonetically, and some
people love it, some people hateit.
What do you think that brings toa piece?
Maisy (07:57):
I feel like I've been trying not to use the word
authenticity, but I guess that'swhat it brings.
It just makes sense for Jamaicanpeople to talk Jamaican, so it's
it's, why would people be inJamaican, not be speaking
Jamaican?
It's, It's a reflection of howthe world has changed where.
We don't all have to reformulateourselves to make ourselves
palatable to the American gazeanymore.
And I think it helps people getmore invested into the world of
(08:21):
the characters, when theyrealize that it is a world
that's different than their own.
Ariana (08:25):
A term that I came across when I I was teaching
English composition and I was ata university that has a lot of
first generation Americans andfirst generation college
students, and trans languagingis like a big word.
How
Maisy (08:41):
do you, How do you uh, define that?
Ariana (08:42):
As I understand it, it's utilizing your native language
with English being able to gobetween a Spanglish for example.
Oh yeah.
Or
Maisy (08:51):
I think we used to call it creol creolization of
language.
Ariana (08:55):
Yeah.
And it's just, and I think it'ssimilarly like just being able
to be your most authentic selfallowing the characters to be
authentically themselves withouthaving to translate everything.
'cause a lot of times like evenwhen I'm reading, if things
aren't translated and it's alanguage, I don't know usually
you can pick it up throughcontext clues and also,
Meryl (09:15):
or look it up
Ariana (09:15):
or look it up and it makes you more involved in the
story and in the culture or theplace of the story.
And it's crazy'cause this ideaof American culture is, was
crafted.
It, it didn't exist like whitesupremacy is something that has
been intentionally created anddistributed.
Maisy (09:38):
Yeah.
Like, That's why I wrote thisbook.
It was just so bizarre that, Igrew up in New York.
I grew up in Queens.
I grew up with people whoseparents who either weren't born
here like me, or their parentsweren't from here.
And it's like we were themajority, but at the same time,
you go to school and it's likeyou don't exist, right.
And there's no nobody aroundyou.
(09:59):
Outside of the, those cultureshave any idea, like anything
about your culture, but you knoweverything about them, I noticed
in workshops sometimes.
I'm a librarian, but I havetaught a lot of workshops.
People still will italicizeforeign words and I am trying to
encourage them not to do thatanymore.
Meryl (10:20):
Do you wanna tell us about how you got your agent?
Maisy (10:23):
So it was a non-traditional way, I would
say.
I don't write essays very oftenbut I did write an essay for
Lenny Letter, the defunctpublication, Lena
Meryl (10:35):
Dunham's newsletter.
Maisy (10:36):
Yeah.
I had, I wrote an essay.
It was about why I haven'tintroduced my boyfriend, who's
now my husband to my mother andMonica Odom, who's my agent,
read it and and she just emailedme and asked me what I was
working on.
So I had maybe half, maybe noteven a full, maybe half of these
(10:58):
Ghosts are family written out.
I sent her those five chaptersand we had a phone call and she
agreed to sign me.
Oh
Ariana (11:07):
yeah.
How'd that feel?
Maisy (11:09):
Good, good.
I feel like bad saying it'causeI was like, oh, it was very easy
for me.
I didn't send out any query
Meryl (11:14):
dream.
I've sent up 55 queries on thisbook.
37 on the last
Ariana (11:20):
I mean, everyone says it's a numbers game slash a,
it's a roulette.
Maisy (11:23):
Yeah.
It's interesting because withtrying to publish my first short
story I sent out I think that Igot like 66 rejections for that
one story.
Meryl (11:34):
Which was the first one that got published?
Estelle's Black Guy.
Oh, that was the first, okay.
Yeah.
Maisy (11:38):
It's I think rejections, yeah.
Part of the game.
I do, I think it did becomeeasier trying to get published
once I yeah.
Thought of it as a numbers game.
I was like, let's see if I canget up to 30, let's see if I get
up to 40, 50, 60 submissions,
Ariana (11:51):
yeah.
There's a, some writer was like,I don't count the publications.
I just try and get to a hundredrejections a year.
Maisy (11:59):
Yeah.
What I noticed like trying toadapt from being an MFA to
writing on your own.
Was there were some writers whojust got straight praise, like I
had never been in a workshopwith them.
Where everybody wasn't likeglowing and gushing about their
story.
And then that person neverpublished a thing and I've never
heard from them as a fictionwriter again.
And that's not a criticism, butI just wonder, how much they got
(12:20):
used to that praise.
And when they started sendingout a story, they got 10
rejections.
They were just like, nevermind.
Okay.
I think a lot of people give upso quickly.
And it took me like years, Ithink it was what year did I get
published?
2018?
No, 2, 20 20.
I officially got published, Iguess 2018 I got signed.
But yeah, I finished my MFA in2006 oh no, in 2009.
(12:41):
2009.
Yeah.
I started in 2006.
It's been years.
It's a long, it's a long, youhave to play
Ariana (12:48):
the
Maisy (12:48):
long game.
Ariana (12:49):
what sustains you,
Maisy (12:50):
I think it's like a nagging feeling.
Even like when I'm like, oh, Isuck, give I'm not gonna do this
anymore.
Something always pulls you backin'cause you do feel like this
is a part of your identity.
And it does feel strange not tohave a project, not to have a
goal, not to have plans to everwrite again.
I don't write regularly.
I don't like writing every day.
I had not disciplined, I'm a bigprocrastinator.
(13:12):
I'm very lazy, but I do knowthat I have to put something out
there.
Like I have to have something toshow for myself.
Sometimes it feels like you'redoing nothing, it comes out to
something eventually.
Ariana (13:24):
Do you have to when you do write, do you have to have a
certain set up?
Are you a hand writer?
Do you write on the computer?
Are you a music listener?
I think
Maisy (13:33):
I try all those things right now.
I think it helps to do thePomodoro thing.
25 minutes on, five minutes off,if I have a real deadline.
Like I'll honestly just lay inbed like a slob all day and just
write and not shower or eat ordo anything until I finish, but
I think I'm working my way upto, taking it seriously and I
don't know, having a routine,
Meryl (13:53):
how do you find the day job of Librarian?
How does that work as a writer?
Maisy (13:58):
It doesn't, I think it helps me in terms of anxiety.
Because you
Meryl (14:02):
have somewhere to go.
Something to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm
Maisy (14:03):
like, I can't, I can't beat myself up too much or get
too much fomo or feel like toocompetitive.
'cause I was like, I still havethis other world that I'm a part
of that I feel grounded in.
So I don't have to fully committo being a writer, which sounds
bad.
But I think I would just be tooneurotic if I was just writing
all the time.
'cause I have, I have taken timeoff and just focused on writing.
(14:27):
But I still, 90% of my time isspent in bed with my cats and
drinking with Mar you know, it'snot spent writing, so I just
Right.
No, I feel like
Meryl (14:34):
you're may be actually more productive when you have a
job.
Maisy (14:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I have to like, realizeI have to really use like
weekends, vacations and thinkabout how I'm gonna get a
project done.
Ariana (14:51):
One thing that I thought when I first met you, Maisie,
was that you are like a superresearcher and so tell me about
how research plays a role, inyour life or your process for
writing,
Maisy (15:04):
Originally when I went to library school, I wanted to be
an archivist, you can't find anyjobs doing that.
So I switched to publiclibrarianship.
But, I love research.
That story that we mentioned,"The Lamb or the Lion" it's set
around the time when HaileSelassie, the emperor of
Ethiopia, who's considered, thereincarnation of Christ for
Rastafarians visited Jamaica forthe first time.
(15:25):
And so, I got obsessed with thatwhen I read about it.
And I read so many books onRastafarism probably like 10 to
15.
It's just fascinating and itreally changed the direction of
the book.
So yeah, it's, even though thisbook that I'm writing now
started as like auto fiction ina way, and it's not anymore, I
wouldn't say, but it stillsomehow involves like constant
(15:47):
research.
Meryl (15:49):
Like as far as what was happening in a certain time that
you're writing about or justyeah, the bigger world.
The context.
Maisy (15:55):
Yeah, exactly.
'cause it's part of it extendsinto during COVID, And thinking
about the significant, thingsthat were happening during that
time, pre covid.
I did some hurricane researchand like various things.
One of the things I think myeditor had said was oh, more
atmosphere with like,'cause it'sset in New Jersey and it's set
in, part of it is NewarkPatterson and you take for
granted the spaces you walkthrough every day.
(16:18):
So it's like actually having togo back to this park that I
always walk through and look atthis bust of JFK and like
describe it and then think ofresearch, like why it's there,
who founded it, if there'ssomething I want to bring into
the book, all that stuff.
Meryl (16:33):
I feel like living in New York City, there's a lot of
assumptions that like, everyoneshould just know this.
And I feel like there is aquestion of how much to put in
about place,
Maisy (16:43):
especially when you're in a city, it's it's everything is
so dense.
And there's so much to take inall at once that you miss
everything.
And then, when you're writingyour job is to hone in on this
specific detail.
So you have to go back sometimesover those real places and break
everything down and really.
Kind of get the whole picturefor yourself before you decide
what to isolate in the, in yourwriting.
Meryl (17:05):
Right.
Because I feel as people, we allnotice certain things we're just
the things that we're obsessedwith, things we care about.
And I think it, it can feeloverwhelming to try to show
everything or think that youneed to show everything
Maisy (17:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
But you also have to be careful.
When I'm showing Newark and I'mlike, I'm not even from Newark,
i've lived there for 14, 15years.
It's like what version of thisplace are you going to represent
to the public who aren'tfamiliar with this place, have
only heard bad things.
I wanna, right.
Meryl (17:32):
You're a representative of Newark on some level.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maisy (17:35):
It's like you wanna be truthful, but you also don't
want to play into stigmas andstereotypes and things like
that.
Representation matters.
So that's a big responsibility.
And then it's also likeauthenticity again.
I'm being careful about goingback over different spaces.
Getting the names.
There, there are the things thatthey're called, and they're the
things that they're called bypeople who are from there.
(17:56):
Right.
And you have to make sure thatyou're using the right language,
right?
Yes.
Meryl (17:59):
The cool thing is though, that your character isn't from
there.
So it's that's, yeah.
She's an outsider.
Yeah.
Maisy (18:04):
Yeah.
She just moved there.
Ariana (18:10):
I decided to do an MFA on a whim.
I was working at a job where Iwas in an office overseeing
commercial animation and therewas a lot of waiting I was like
writing in between because I wasbored and I was like, oh, maybe
I'll just apply to grad school.
Meryl (18:26):
I also was on a whim, but I, after seeing Maisie's
experience, I definitely didn'twanna do it.
I,
Maisy (18:32):
not that I had a bad experience I think I had a lot
of anxiety issues.
And I think I I remember therewas like a year where I didn't
do workshop.
And so Merrill had a writinggroup with some people in Park
Slope.
So I joined that writing groupfor the year that I was not in
workshop,
Meryl (18:51):
I think that things have changed a little bit since then,
maybe.
Yeah.
Maisy (18:55):
I don't know.
I definitely think we're moreaware of how destructive
workshop culture could be to thecreative process, and I think
people are smarter than theyused to be.
We know what a microaggressionis now.
We didn't know what that was.
10, 15 years ago, nobody hadever heard of such a thing.
So people said all kinds ofcrazy things.
But yeah, I think things havereally improved probably.
Ariana (19:17):
so what do you.
Think makes a good workshop.
Meryl (19:21):
as a participant and as a teacher?
Maisy (19:24):
I think as a teacher, the thing that has frustrated me the
most is when people aren'tgenerous with each other.
And I've only had this happenlike in one workshop that I
taught in, but it was verybizarre I think before I applied
to MFA programs, everybody like,made those articles about oh,
it's just like professionalnaval gazing and to made it seem
(19:45):
like everybody would be likenarcissistic and out for
themselves.
But it really, it rarelyhappens.
I think most of the workshops,especially the non-credit
workshops that I've taken andtaught have people have been
extremely generous and kind.
I personally like not doing theIowa method, I guess as it's
taught, as like using criticalresponse process, by Liz
Luhrman, which is another method
Meryl (20:06):
Can you explain to those who might not know the Iowa
Method, what that,
Maisy (20:10):
As far as I was taught, like the Iowa method is
everybody reads the submissionbeforehand and then the author
of the piece remains silentwhile people just say whatever
random thing pops into theirheads.
And then at the end, the authorgets like a few minutes to speak
or clear things up.
But it's pointless because thediscussion is over.
(20:30):
So there's, clearing things upis not really important or
useful at the end.
Critical response process wascreated by a dancer,
choreographer, Liz Luhrman.
And it's a way to get feedbackon any artistic form.
You're actually asking questionsto the workshop that you want
answers to.
The workshop gets to askclarifying questions to you or,
(20:52):
they say questions withoutopinions and opinions are last
in a critical response processworkshop.
And you actually have to askpermission to give your opinion
on certain things.
So I have to be like, Ariana,would you like to hear my
opinion on your use of, lyricallanguage?
And I'd be like, no, yeah, I'mgood on that.
(21:12):
You know what I mean?
And you it, it saves a lot oftime and it lets you guide the
workshop towards feedback that'srelevant to you.
But I think the important partis to get used to workshop
that's not driven by complimentsor insults.
So it, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be like, oh, an a co a
compliment sandwich or anything.
You could just focus on what wasmemorable about the piece.
(21:34):
And that's not necessarily bador good.
It's, without an opinion, it'sjust, it forces you to be like,
put a little distance, I think.
Meryl (21:41):
Yeah.
I think the important thing istrying to help the writer get to
where they wanna go, not whereyou'd like to see them go.
Maisy (21:47):
Yeah.
Meryl (21:48):
I think a lot of people go in there and they're like,
this should be this.
It's but I'm not writing that.
Yeah.
Fuck you.
Maisy (21:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
'Cause it's I don't wanna hearyour feedback on my Jamaican
patois, like, when you've never,you don't know these people and
you don't understand theculture.
And I think that was a lot ofwhat old workshop was.
It was like, oh, why don't youjust have them not talk that
way?
And I was like, that's not theoption.
Ariana (22:13):
I think we should talk about the importance of writing
communities,
Maisy (22:17):
I think a lot of people end up going to MFA programs
because they think it'sdifficult to find that community
without formal education.
And part of the reason I wantedto go back to librarianship is
that I wanted to bring like freearts to, different communities
so that it's not a,'cause you,it does MFA programs do skew
(22:37):
wealthier?
Yeah.
A lot of people go in debtobviously to, to do them, but a
lot of people who are in them,are in them because they're
having somebody pay for them.
And I think it would be helpfulfor people to get the same
quality.
Same community, same education,but without paying anything.
I do want to offer moreworkshops through public
libraries fiction workshops,non-fiction, creative writing
(22:58):
workshops.
So that's important to me.
Once I got published, I think Ifound like a bigger writing
community than, honestly, thanwhen I was writing on my own.
Meryl (23:09):
Do you feel though that these people, and are these
people?
Are they like real writingfriends?
Oh, wait, what
Maisy (23:18):
people, the community, like
Meryl (23:19):
the people that you've met after being published, do
you feel like you talk to themabout writing or you're more
like in their social world?
Maisy (23:27):
I would say most people, it's like a kind of a
professional connection.
I don't know if that soundsmean.
It's but we don't really sharework the way that you and I
share work or, like the peopleI, we still occasionally share
with people in our writinggroup.
Meryl (23:40):
That's the thing I've always been dreaming about to be
like in the the parties of thewriters, but I don't know how
many of them ex exist anymore.
But you found some, but there's,yeah, there's a lot of,
Maisy (23:50):
Definitely a lot of partying.
People invite you to things, butYeah, I don't always go in and
then when I go, I feel awkwardand I'm like, why did I go
outside?
This is, Maybe that's why I stayas a librarian, because I think
a lot of the things that you'resupposed to enjoy.
As a writer are like terrifyingto me.
Like the idea of going on aretreat or whatever you call it,
like a residency or a residency,I'm like, I'm gonna be outside
(24:12):
of my bed for an undisclosedamount of time and with nobody
to talk to, with some randompeople in a house.
And it just doesn't feel good tome, so I just don't apply to
things.
Yeah.
I think literary citizenship isincredibly important, when
you're a writer, and I thinkthat's also something that
people don't get prepared for.
(24:34):
When you're in the MFA, it'slike when you have a book
published, then you have toyou're begging for blurbs and
then people are gonna startbegging you for blurbs and it's
you're doing in conversationsyou have to be a.
You have to read a lot ofpeople's books and do a lot of
unpaid labor.
Meryl (24:49):
What do you think about the fact that your publisher,
Simon and Schuster, has gottenrid of the blurb?
Maisy (24:53):
Oh, I think it's great.
It's a lot of work for people.
It also makes you feel badsometimes'cause you're like,
Meryl (24:58):
oh, they got a better blurb, or no.
Maisy (25:00):
Yeah, when I asked people in the MFA program who I
actually knew and were in myyear who had been published,
none of them did it.
Meryl (25:07):
They said no, or they, or
Maisy (25:08):
I never heard the response or they didn't respond.
My publisher didn't give thedetails.
But, I just got, these are thepeople who said yes to blurbs
and they were never the peoplethat I expected.
And so you feel some type of wayabout that.
Right.
You know what I mean?
So
Meryl (25:22):
And that's not a good way to feel when your book is
getting published.
You wanna feel loved andsupported.
Yeah.
Maisy (25:27):
So you're like, oh, these people never believed in me to
begin with.
So I feel like it's, yeah,there's a lot of opportunity to
take things personally.
And I think getting rid ofblurbs helps, takes that off the
table.
Meryl (25:42):
Is there anything you're reading now that you are excited
about?
Maisy (25:46):
I've gotten really into audio books, which I never had
any interest in.
Ariana (25:50):
I don't mind an audiobook'cause I'm also a slow
reader.
Also, some are performed reallywell.
Maisy (25:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ariana (25:57):
Meryl hates them.
Meryl (25:58):
I do hate them.
Maisy (25:58):
Yeah.
I read them, I read the book andlisten to the audiobook at the
same time.
On a high, faster speed.
Oh wow.
So now I feel like a geniusbecause I can finish a book in
two hours.
Like a YouTube video onproductivity.
Meryl (26:11):
So then you're speed reading.
Maisy (26:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're reading it faster, butyou still like, absorb
everything.
'cause you're reading it andlistening.
Ariana (26:17):
It's like s what is it called?
Sensory deprivation.
It's I am only in this story.
Yeah, I hear it.
I'm reading it.
I see it.
Maisy (26:25):
Yeah.
Ariana (26:26):
Oh man, that's crazy.
Maisy (26:29):
Oh yeah.
I have a, I have to write aromance story for this audible
anthology.
Oh, it's called Lover's Rock.
It was edited by the CalabashInternational F estival.
So it's seven love stories byJamaican writers.
Ooh,
Meryl (26:42):
so it's available on Audible?
Maisy (26:43):
Audible.
It's a available on audible.
Oh.
See, lover's rock.
Rock,
Ariana (26:46):
now I'm curious about that.
I'm like, how was writing for anaudible specific story?
Maisy (26:52):
It was hard just because we had to write a romance, and
that's not my genre, but it wasfun to push yourself to do
something that you don'tnormally do.
It's like I had to find a way tomake it fun for me.
Um,
Meryl (27:02):
And you wrote it just the same way as if someone was gonna
read it?
Maisy (27:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Ariana (27:06):
So it wasn't like written like a play?
Maisy (27:08):
No it was, it's just a short story, but you do have to
keep in mind that an actress isgoing to read it out loud.
Ariana (27:14):
Did you get to pick the actress?
Maisy (27:16):
No.
They picked, but she was great.
We have a similar background.
Her name is Sandra Oakley.
I think she was in one Love theBob Marley movie.
Ariana (27:22):
Oh, okay.
Maisy (27:23):
Yeah.
And she's from Queens too, cool.
Ariana (27:26):
All right.
Shout out to Queens.
We got two queens, Queens ladieshere.
Meryl (27:36):
Is there one last thing you wanna leave our audience
with?
Maisy (27:39):
Look for my new book in 2026.
Meryl (27:41):
Oh yes.
Oh yeah.
What's the title?
Maisy (27:43):
I don't know if I'm allowed to say it yet.
I already posted it online.
So d Difficult patrons.
Does that phrase mean anythingto other people who are not
librarians?
Meryl (27:51):
mean, I would assume it's like a euphemism for fucking
really bad.
Maisy (27:55):
Yeah.
It's just like a library phrase.
The librarians phrase.
Like for for bad patrons.
Ariana (28:01):
I think of also patrons to the arts, which like board
members and stuff that Yeah.
Right.
That control the money andcontrol the art.
Meryl (28:08):
I think it sounds funny, like it puts you, it prepares
you that it's gonna be likeskewering.
Maisy (28:14):
Okay.
Good.
Ariana (28:15):
Yeah.
It feels like it could be alittle satirical, little, a
little I dunno, nudge, nudge,wink, wink.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, that's, let's wrap onthis episode.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Meryl (28:34):
We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday.
Ariana (28:37):
If you wanna check out Maisie's work, we have a link to
her website and where to bothget her book and listen to that
audio special.
In the show notes.
Meryl (28:49):
You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod
and you can drop us a line at,isallwritepod@gmail.com.
Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.
Ariana (29:00):
Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things.
Wherever you get your podcasts,Tune in next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.