E18 Strong Women Deserve Pillars, Not Projects

Hoo boy do we have some juicy juice in this episode. Alternative title options:

Weirdly Emotionally Stable Men? Hot

Safe to Soften: Why Communication is Foreplay

If He Can’t Handle My Healing, He Can’t Have My Softness

Friendship, Marriage, and the Case for Over-Communicating

You Can’t Pour From an Empty Cup—Unless He’s Holding It

Strong Women, Soft Spaces, Sturdy Husbands

I’m Not High Maintenance, You’re Just Emotionally Fragile

Emotional Stability Is The New Six-Pack

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
What? It's like a little powder room.
Thank you. Just use this for storage.
I didn't even know that was backthere.
I thought. That was just like a bookshelf.
Near Oh my. Gosh, wait, does that go into
the bathroom? Yeah, it's very dumb.
Like that could be a whole ass bathroom, but instead it's like
little toilet area with sink, little shower area, little
powder room. We're just going to tear it all

(00:28):
down and make it 1 big, one normal size bathroom.
A normal size bathroom. With all of the things in the
same place. Yeah, that I didn't.
OK, isn't it silly that is? Silly.
It's very silly. Come on.
Weird house. Well it's from this back when
you would have his and hers bedrooms so you didn't sleep in
the same room. So this is her bedroom with her

(00:49):
powder room. Sitting in a museum right now.
You are a. Oh, I love that.
Yeah. Look at her beautiful with all
of her drawers for all of her. Things.
Oh my God, wow that this house is that old. 61 yeah, that was
in mid century. Very I feel like very common in
mid century homes. My grandparents had his and hers

(01:10):
bedrooms too. Well, I mean, it makes sense now
that, like, if I think about your house, because there's so
many things happening downstairs, like that's where
everyone else lives. Yeah.
That that would make sense that.Yeah, they have.
Oh, yeah, yeah, this is where the heads of the household
reside, but is and all the noisychildren's are downstairs.
Yes, yeah. Is that so?
Does this powder room go straight to your room?

(01:32):
Your office. So it goes that that door behind
you is the powder room, and thenthe door behind that goes to
where the shower and bath are. Oh my God.
There's a sink. Yeah.
Yeah. And then it's.
So it's basically AU. Yeah.
So, and then the shower and bathroom open on the other side
to the main part of the bathroom, which is toilet sink.

(01:56):
Yeah, cute. It's very silly.
It is silly now, but yeah, back then, yeah, efficient.
Yes, and you don't have to share.
It's funny, my stepmom was like,yeah, that way you can put your
makeup on. You don't have to deal with your
stinky husband in the bathroom. And I was like, oh, first hand
experience, Deb. I get it.
Cute. I don't want to have to put my
makeup on when it's well. They just like they sit in there

(02:16):
forever. They do, they sit in there.
It's impressive how long it takes.
Yeah, 'cause they're like, I don't know about your other
half, but. Like I'm contemplating life in
there. Turn the shower on and then go
potty and sits in there contemplates live and then
showers. I'm like, so you're sitting.
What are your waste of water, Patrick?
That which we've talked about, he's going to get so mad that I

(02:39):
talk about this. Sorry Pat.
And but also maybe something. Yeah, but I was like the most.
But I'm like, where did we learnthis?
Yeah, you trying to like, hide your poop sounds?
No, no, because I've heard it. But like also I'm just like
what? Why?
You want steamy shit smell? Yeah.

(02:59):
You know what I don't want when I'm pooping and steam?
Well, then I can't do my makeup because it's steamy.
Yeah. So maybe we need a?
You need a Jack and Jill. Now we can't sleep together.
Now you need to have a whole different bedrooms.
Oh, Oh, no. Well, since since we're talking
about her husband, should we just talk about the sturdiness?
Oh, yeah, probably. Yeah, let's do it, I feel like.

(03:20):
That's oh, should we introduce this at this?
What are we? What is this thing called that
we do podcast, podcast. Should we introduce this
podcast? Probably no.
Let's do it. Hi, I'm Tori.
Hi, I'm Kimberly. And this is.
It's nothing. It's everything.
It's a podcast. Yep, you're here.
You might be queer. Get into it.

(03:41):
You might not be. We all exist on the spectrum,
let's be honest. Let's be honest.
And if you don't feel that you exist on the spectrum, you know,
go do some ayahuasca and learn more about yourself.
I don't know. God never done ayahuasca but
sounds scary. I'd do it.
I know you would do it. I know I can't lose control that

(04:01):
much. It would have the everything
would have to be exactly right, which is what they tell you,
right? Like you have to be like,
separated from the world. But like what is everything
right? Like what does that even?
Mean, I have no idea. We have.
If I was separated from the world, I'd be like, now I'm
scared. Now I'm not safe.
Now I don't feel safe. And who are these people?
And who is this guide? Who's supposed to be?

(04:23):
It also feels very different. I feel like for a female to to
be trusting in that scenario than a male.
Yeah. You know.
Is that where the shaman is? I do know female shamans.
Shamans. Shamans.
Yeah. Oh.
What was her name from Mexico two years ago?
Dionne. She's a shaman.
Yeah, she's magical. We have somebody who comes and

(04:46):
teaches at the studio that is a shaman.
I don't think she's doing shamanthings.
But Tim and Josh, I'm sorry, guys.
I hope I can say this. I'm about to say we're about to
talk about illegal drugs. Were saying that they or maybe
it was Josh was saying that theyfound a woman in Arizona that
you just like pay to to fly up to you and she comes and does

(05:11):
ayahuasca like like is your. No.
Yeah, they had this whole. I don't know if they ever did
it. I got to find out now.
They had this whole. They had this whole.
Plan Can we use their names while we're using their names?
Yeah, I don't worry, I'll ask them after the episode is live,
just for funsies. Can I say that they.
Is it legal? Are illegal.
No, but also like, OK, OK. That they were, like, gonna be

(05:36):
renting a house in the San Juan Islands and they were gonna go
out there and you have to do this whole detox ahead of time
where you, like, detox from yourphone for 24 hours ahead of
time, and you don't communicate with anybody outside of the
house. And then it's just like a
weekend trip. Where you go take some you like.
Have all your food and all the things ready ahead of time.
And then she, like, prepares allof your meals.

(05:57):
And she is like your guide for the yeah.
He was like, we're just going tofly around from Arizona.
I was like what is happening? Man, there's a job for
everybody, so listen. We can.
We can do that. I don't want to, but I will be
there to support you and hold your hand.
Thanks babe, while I'm while I'mpuking my guts out and having
insane hallucinations. That's where I'm like, Nah, I.

(06:21):
Don't really feel like that. I don't need to dive deep into
my subconscious like that. I bet it's horrifying in there.
Yeah, that's why it's subconscious.
That's why it's deep. It's deep.
It's under. It is sub, you know?
Yeah, I took Latin in 6th grade.Good job, me too was required

(06:42):
just sub. Under.
Dead language required for all students.
Well. I mean, you know, it's the root
of. Stuff.
It is the root of all things, yeah.
It is the root of all things anyway.
Anyway, let's both drink at the same time.
Good. Idea 123 Go.
But we were talking about. Oh my, tea's hot.

(07:04):
Well, that's. On an 85° day, it is very.
It's 80. It's balmy.
Oh, great. Yeah, it's come down.
We're talking about, let me say,and.
Seven more. Seven more times we were talking
about. Well, where's what's that text

(07:25):
say? Somebody sent you a text?
One of our listeners. Why do I say?
Text because you showed it to meon your phone.
Was it an Instagram message? Somebody reached out to you
somewhere and said it's very refreshing to hear people say
nice things about their husbands.
Yes, I found it and it was a text.
Oh, you can all send me a text anytime you want.

(07:46):
Her number is 555. 444-9898 Hi so I listened to your podcast
this morning and I could not stop thinking about it so I
thought I would share. It was so refreshing to hear
women talk about their husbands in such a positive way.
I have found that it is becomingmore and more abnormal and I
feel that it's sad. It's more normal to hear women

(08:10):
put their husbands down and complain.
I love that you women were so positive and honest and not
husband bashing. It just shows you your inner
love and that you have such an uplifting soul.
I have gotten comments on the fact that I don't have anything
bad to say or still positive about wait and still positive

(08:31):
about a not so positive thing and I find it surprising that
there is not more of it. Just good to hear I guess.
Thank you and keep it up. Long message, I know, but it was
nice to hear. Which, but I also feel like
there were so many important things in there, which is like,
to her point, getting commentaryon having a positive outlook on
a not so positive thing. I feel like we've talked about

(08:54):
this a million times, right? Like how you choose to see it is
how you choose to see it. You and, and everything is a
choice, even when horrible fucking things happen to you,
because that is the unfortunate truth of life is that horrible
things happen to good people. You your reframe is or your or
your perspective, how you chooseto, which direction you choose

(09:17):
to move in. Yeah.
How you choose to engage with that, Yeah, will change the
outcome of where it all goes. Yeah, and I think so much of
that is just tied to healing in general, feeling your way
through it, not hiding any of your feelings, not suppressing
any of your feelings because they're yucky, feeling yucky
until you can feel unyucky. Yeah, sitting in it, yeah.

(09:39):
But also being gentle with yourself is also, I mean, that
was a hard lesson for me where Iwas just like, you're stronger
than this story. Be stronger, period.
Do it and it's OK to not be strong, right?
Like sometimes you have to have those not to be.
Yeah, I have found in my old agethat I actually like to be taken

(10:00):
care of as, you know, a strong quote UN quote, strong lady.
I'm that strong friend that people talk about.
You and. Both.
Yeah, I like to be checked in on.
Just because I'm strong and because I can doesn't mean I
should. All of the time.

(10:20):
Yeah. And I think that was for me.
I think I was just like white knuckling it for such a long
time. I never trusted that anyone was
going to take care of me. And so it was a lot of it was a
lot of that. It was like, I mean, that's why
when I started dating Pat, I waslike, I'm going to throw
everything I fucking got at you,bro.
I'm going to come at you hard with my ugly.

(10:41):
I will also say, like you had some dating experiences leading
up to Patty, I can see how that was your approach to the
relationship. Yeah, it's bumpy.
Not white bread, Brad. He was just kind of like there,
you know? Well, I think that that is, that
is. Kind of bumpy because like
you're a strong female and he was like, let me take you to
dinner for your birthday at the same place you had dinner last

(11:02):
night. And not even like put a thought.
Sorry, white bread. Brad, if you ever hear this, he
won't not even like put a thought into like, maybe I
should do something different for her that will make the
experience unique. And it's not malicious, right?
Like he just wasn't using his brain.
No, yeah. Bless his heart.
Bless his little baby heart. But like that that also that

(11:24):
also contributes to you like putting on your armor, right,
because you're like, OK, well, if you don't see me or this
relationship as any kind of important, then like, OK, fine,
I'll be extra miss independent. You've got it.
I don't need you either. Fuck you.
Yeah, 1 And people just didn't, I think throughout my life just

(11:48):
assumed that I got it right. I was just fine.
Yeah, might do it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I was, I
was. And that's where that my
favorite saying is like, check in on your strong friends
because they need love too. Yeah.
And when they go down, they go down hard and.
When they go down, they go down hard.
And I think that people don't. And but we also, because we're

(12:09):
strong, we don't show that. Yeah.
So it's, it's, you know, it, it's perpetuating the cycle of
like, no one's going to check inon somebody who's already fine.
But now even in their hard time,they're fine.
So like, why check in on them? I'm like, because we're human
beings, Because we're human beings.
Because we're human beings. And, and like, why, why do we

(12:29):
have to wait for people to show signs of distress in order to
check in on someone? Like the amount of times that
people in my life have been like, Oh my God, I had no idea
you were going through that. I didn't even notice.
You seemed fine. Like, that's not the.
I'm always going to seem fine. Same with you.
You're always going to seem fine.
Because that's how we roll. That's how.
Like we're always going to pull ourselves up our fucking
bootstraps and get the shit donethat needs to get done.

(12:52):
Yep. We don't derail.
Yeah, we just build another track.
We we're just like, fuck you. The track's over there now, so
OK, fine. Track's going up the wall I I
guess. OK, yeah, but so when I found AI
found a partner who was not only, I mean, he was scared

(13:13):
like, let's call that what it is.
He was scared, but he could alsosee past it and was like,
there's some so much good there and and and never shield away
from the challenges that I made him jump through.
Yeah, because I did like well, and we we've talked about it on

(13:35):
the pod where I was like, not aneasy few months that the
beginning of our relationship because, yeah, I didn't trust
it. I was just like, something's
going to make you go away. Yeah.
So how did I get here? Well, I don't, I don't know.
By car. Checking on your strong friends.
Yeah. You drove.
I drove here. You took the ones.
I came through this. This closet you came from the

(13:57):
the water closet. Anyway.
Yeah, sturdy. Well, I think same with Nick.
Nick was, you know, I think probably very afraid of.
Nick has had times in our relationship where he's been
very afraid of me. Yeah.
But the, the, the thing at the end of the day that is the
foundation is that like I will always be strong.

(14:22):
There has to be a counterbalanceto that, right?
Like I can go out in the world and be strong because at home in
my space, I am held and I am cared for and I am protected and
I am safe. And if I don't have those things
at home, then I don't show up inthe world as strong.
I show up in the world as like hostile and aggressive, which is

(14:45):
not the same as strong. No, no.
No, but there has to be like that counterbalance, right?
So that we can continue to be strong and forge ahead and be
the, what do you call them? Fucking what's that word?
It's windmill turbine. Be the turbine.

(15:07):
Be the turbine to my life. What?
OK, Thor, be here now. For be, be the, be the I don't
know, I can't. It's it's.
Too far is it? Hot.
It's not coming out. It's hot in here.
We're melting. My brain is melting.
But yeah, there's there's. Just we need a safe place to

(15:28):
land. We need a safe, a soft.
A soft place to land. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and and the, that sturdiness also requires
strength, right? But it has to be like
complementary strength, which again I think is the same as
like not being hostile and aggressive, right?
Like, like if as a as a strong female, in past relationships, I
have been met with aggression and hostility because men with

(15:52):
their big ol egos feel threatened by your passion, my
passion and also my strength. Like I, I mean, I have had this
conversation with Nick. I don't even know how many
times. Well, before we got married, I
was like, I don't need you. I mean, I came from being a
single mom. Yeah.
I was like. I don't.

(16:13):
Moms don't bug around a single mom.
You guys are the superheroes of the world.
I don't. I will die on that hell all day.
I don't know how you did it. I don't know how anybody does
it. I am.
I bow down. It's it's yeah, I don't, I don't
recommend it. And also like, I recommend it
over, you know, most women are choose to be single moms for

(16:33):
reasons. And so in my scenario,
definitely I recommend it over the alternative.
But but especially because that was where I came from.
I was like, I don't need a husband.
I don't need a partner. I want an equal.
I want someone to share the loadwith, share the work with, share

(16:57):
the joy and the experiences and the adventures with.
But like, there is no need here and I think a lot of men are
threatened by that. Well, yeah.
Which is why those relationshipsdidn't work.
Out also, but also because they have been told that that's their
primary. Job, be the provider.

(17:17):
Yeah, yeah. They've literally been told
there since just like we were told to be princesses, They were
told to be the Knights in shining armor.
Yeah. Who come in and save the Prince,
rescue and rescue. And so if you've never had an
actual man in your life, say, hey, bud, there's another way.
Come be the gremlin who lives inthe forest, right?
Like, nobody, you know, nobody'sever said that.

(17:38):
And so just like nobody's ever said to us, be like, you can
still. You can, you can bypass
Princess, go straight to queen and rule everything.
Yeah. You know, nobody ever gave me
that scenario. It was just like, you know, you
have to be the Princess. I was like but I don't.
She's boring. She's boring, I don't.
Want to wait around for Prince Charming?

(17:59):
They always take too long because they're taking a ship
with their. Shower.
They're taking a shower ship. Like they're steaming it up with
the poop particles. You don't.
See it? I don't get it and I also die on
that hill because I don't get it.
But I still love him with my whole heart.
Yes. Of course, but but I love that

(18:21):
that text from a friend of the pod because it was nice, the
acknowledgement that there are other people in the world who
just don't hate their partners. Because I feel like, because I,
I think that people lead with their battles, their battle
stories before they lead with the positive.
Yeah, right. It's like when you have a baby

(18:43):
and like, and people are like, oh, well, get ready for 3rd
trimester. Oh, get ready for, you know, XY
and Z. Oh, it's always the negative
that they lead with. And it's because like people
want the acknowledgement that they, their suffering was for
something good, right? And I don't think that a
marriage is any different. I don't think having a partner

(19:04):
is any different. People want to be like, look at
what I've suffered through. Yeah.
And, and I don't do that becauseI'm really, you know, my partner
and I have worked very hard, Patand I have worked very hard to
have not only a solid foundation, but also to keep it

(19:26):
positive 'cause I am surrounded by a lot of women who do that.
And I'm just like why? Yeah.
Well, and at the end of the day,like, if that's the person
you're choosing to be married to, how do you want, how do you
want your marriage to feel? How do you want your
relationship to feel? And if that's the way you feel
towards your partner? I mean, listen, I also feel like

(19:47):
culturally we are in this shift where like we are recognizing
the amount of abuse that women have been put through in, in
like standard heterosexual marriages for for generations.
And so we are getting more vocalabout putting our foot down and
saying that's enough, that's enough.
So if you, you know, are the kind of person who got married

(20:11):
before you had awareness of thatand are now like realizing that,
I am sure you probably have a lot of very negative feelings
toward your husband. I don't blame you.
And also, are you guys working on it?
Are you working to fix it or is it just easier?
And I not like, there's so many things, right?
Like there's so many layers to this, so many, so many layers.
As with everything. Onions, baby, you got them

(20:31):
onions. Far face.
Are you communicating about it? Are you working towards it?
Are you being solution oriented?Do you feel comfortable saying,
hey babe, the contract that we negotiated when we got married
is not the contract we have anymore.
We need to. Renegotiate.
Renegotiation, renegotiation andyou're either going to get a
promotion or a demotion. Which do you want?

(20:56):
Well, and I think I've had conversations with my lady
friends of like, I don't feel, you know, I shouldn't ask him to
change. I was like, no, yes, and and I
think you can, you have changed.And we because we are, we should
all be changing. That is the goal, right?

(21:18):
We are respecting the deathbed. I don't want to be the same
person I was at 23, at 33, at 43, at 53.
I don't want to be the same person.
That's not growth to me. And in my life, a priority in my
life is growth. And that's also a conversation
I've had with my partner where Iwas like, I will outgrow you.
And it's not because I don't love you.

(21:39):
I love you so deeply that I'm having this conversation with
you to say I need you to come onup, babe, because like you,
you're on a different growth pattern.
And I don't mind that yours, your growth is slower than mine.
Maybe I have more sunlight. I don't know.
Like, you know, like I don't know what it is.
Somebody's watering me more. I don't know.

(22:00):
But like, I need you, I need to see that it's going in the same
direction. Otherwise the hard conversations
will have to happen. And I don't think just because
they're hard, they shouldn't be had.
They should. Be had.
I mean, that's truly how you invest in your relationship.
We've had so many of the same conversations where I'm like, I
am coming to you. This is my effort to grow and

(22:24):
improve. And if I come to you and I and I
have the hard and I approach thehard conversations and I start,
I start the the conversation andyou just put it down on the
floor because it makes you uncomfortable to think about.
That's you actively saying no, I'm not investing in the
relationship. And then we have a problem.
Which then I also take as I'm not worth that effort.

(22:44):
Yeah, you know, And it's like, well then now, yeah.
Now my battle, my battle armor has to come on because I'm like,
now you've offended me. Yeah, you don't get the
vulnerable me because you're you're showing me that you're
not keeping her safe. So.
You are no longer a safe place or soft place to land.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, I mean, one of my favorite

(23:05):
things, I think I've brought it up on the pod before, but there
was it was an Instagram thing oflike be be the place where she
can. It was a man talking to other
men of like, be the place where she can let her storm brew and
fully, like, let her go. Yeah, right.

(23:26):
Like fully get out of her way tojust burn it down and then
become a phoenix. Right.
Like that instead of being another place, another person
saying calm down or stop it or it's just you're fine.
You make me uncomfortable. Yeah.
Or like, it's just, you know, it's just a bad day.
Or you're having. Yeah, you're fine.

(23:47):
Right. You're fine.
You're fine, you know, or even just like toxic positivity can
be in there be like just find a rainbow and which we believe in
right like yes, yes, and yes, and I can be two things at once.
I can want to burn it down and still be looking for my rainbow
because I'm being. Yeah, those things treated
unfairly and those things have to coexist.

(24:08):
They cannot be completely one because you also.
Hears gratitude. You cannot appreciate a rainbow
without the rainstorm. Yeah, can't do it.
They rainbows don't fucking exist without a little bit.
Of rain, it's true. I mean, maybe they do.
I'm not a meteorologist. I don't you need moisture.
OK, well then get in there. Get your moisture up in there.

(24:28):
Get your. Moisture up in there.
I want it moist and dark and sunny.
And sunny all. The same time I want it all.
But I also think that that is I mean to say that like, I do want
it all and I think that we can have it all in life.
It takes longer. Some of the journeys, right?
Some of the storylines will takelonger.

(24:50):
But like, I am a why I have so many fucking weird jobs is like,
I want to do all those things. And so I'm going to do all those
things. I want to be a mom.
I want to be a wife. I want to do theater still.
I want to, you know, travel the world and teach yoga.
I want to teach yoga with a community that I love.
Like, I mean, I'm doing all those things because I want to

(25:12):
do all those things because I want to do all those.
Things and you're being intentional about your life.
Yes, but I think that some people get lost in the sauce in
some of those storylines and they forget the other stuff that
they wanted to do. And now they've saddled up to
this partner who's not supporting all of the things,
the full picture of what a person is.
And I get ragey. Obviously, I get passionate

(25:36):
about it because I'm just like, you choose if you're unhappy.
And I feel yucky saying that. Like there's a part of me that
feels yucky. Oh, I think it's so important to
say. But does it but have to the you
know, I'm gonna speak just to the ladies, but like, cut it
out. Cut it.
Truly cut. It out like either it out like
expect. It is OK to expect more, Yes,

(26:00):
and it's. OK, to say I need more and this
is where the like the the nuanceof the idea of changing your
partner comes into play for me because I will never go into any
scenario with my husband where Iapproach a saying, I want you to
change. I will go to him and I will say
here's what I need that I'm not getting you choose to fulfill

(26:23):
that need or not, right? That's his choice.
I am never going to give him an ultimate an ultimatum about
about demanding that he change. I'm going to communicate my
needs. And if I communicate my needs
and he chooses to ignore it, then I have to make the next
right choice for myself. And eventually, if I continue
over and over again to communicate my needs and those

(26:45):
needs continue to not be met andI have to keep making the next
right choice for myself, at a certain point that leads to no
longer a partnership, right? That's not which.
Is OK too, right? Like, that 100% is OK.
It's like, it's OK. Maybe you've built this.
This is the chapter where you guys were together and you built
this beautiful thing. Yeah.
And then you've outgrown each other and like, let that I, I'd

(27:05):
be like, let that be OK. I think it's really OK.
And I mean, I, I understand there's so much complications
with divorce. There's so much stigma said
yeah, there's so much stigma in our culture.
I mean, if you have kids, if youhave kids, if you have kids, if
you have a house, if you have pets, right?
Like if you have all of these things, it's so much more
complicated. It's so much harder.
I like, I mean, you know, like we, I would say 2, two years

(27:28):
ago, we were in a dark place, Nick and I, we're in a very dark
place. And that's where my mind went.
And I was like, how do I make this make sense?
We have a mortgage, we have children, we have like all of
these things. And I'm like looking at it from
all these different perspectivesand I'm like, how do we build
wealth? We're like cutting our wealth by
2/3 if we have to sell this house and move out, right?

(27:49):
Like there's all of these. Like it's, it's, it's not.
There's so many things that you have to consider.
However, in our situation, I continue to say, here's my
boundary, here's what I need. Are you going to meet me halfway
or are you going to continue to sit on your hands?
And if you continue to sit on your hands, then my needs change

(28:12):
and my demands become more urgent.
So like how you choose to react every step of the way, it's
going to inform what the next thing becomes.
And if you have a partner who isnon responsive to those
communications, that's a whole different, that's a whole
different story, right? Then you need like you have to

(28:33):
escalate and and you are not theone choosing to escalate, right?
You are the one choosing to be solution oriented by
communicating your needs to yourpartner.
I think that there's, I don't want to make everything about
like gender stereotypes, but there is definitely like a very
stereotypically male approach toconversations like that where

(28:53):
they're like, all right, she gotit off her chest.
She vented. You know, now we just like go
back to the way things are path of least resistance.
And that ain't it. That even.
If you're the the female and notlike there are some women who
would also choose the path of least resistance.
Yeah, yes. And to be fair.
Because to see the mountain, right, To see the mountain in
front of you and be like, if youhave kids, you have a house, you

(29:15):
have dogs, you have jobs, you have all the things.
Yeah. And now you don't have this
partner, even though there seemslike a waste of space anyway,
you know, like there's still so many.
It's like, I'll just stay there.And I mean, I would, I have
never lived it, right. So I can't say that.
I can't say. I can't speak to that, but I

(29:38):
feel like if I were up against it, like if, if that, if Pat and
I started to go down that dark, dark place and path, I'd still
take the mountain over me reallyregretting my life.
Yeah. For the long haul.
Yeah, take the mountain and and take the discomfort because that
discomfort is what leads to change.

(29:58):
You cannot stay comfy and make change.
No, Staying comfy guarantees youthat you will be the same person
every day for the rest. Of your 434-4454.
Yeah, same old, same old. Tory yeah.
And she's. Nah, I don't, I don't know.
And I mean, also for those people, because I know we have

(30:19):
listeners who also are not married or have partners.
And so it's like, I think part of me with every relationship
that I had, I would take, I would start to build a list.
Yeah. And I was like, it was my
brother actually, who was when Iwas dating Andrew.
And we took he was like, just give it a few months, like back

(30:40):
out all the way. No communication with this
person. Just like, figure out who you
are without the distraction. Yeah.
And man, when I had that actual breath of fresh air, yeah, I
didn't want to go back because Iwas like, oh, that's not bad,
ain't it? Yeah, I'm like.
And but he was like in that sameconversation he had said start

(31:01):
to build a list like what do youwhat'd you love about it?
What'd you love about it? What did you not?
What are some of your non negotiables which no one had
ever said that to me? But yeah, you didn't know you.
When I started to date him, I was in high school and I just
wanted everybody to want me, right?
I was just like everybody, be myfriend.
Yeah, because that's high school.
Yeah, you. Don't know you're dumb.
You ain't got no Gordon frontal lobe, but you know you're.

(31:24):
Dumb you're. Dumb.
We're all dumb. Even in college, I was still
dumb. And so, like, when I I, I did, I
wrote it down. And so when I met White Bread
Brad, I was like, OK, you check off some good stuff.
You've still got some other weird stuff.
Yeah, OK, well, that'll go on the other side there, you know,
'cause OK, you're a weirdo, but like, we call White Bread Brad

(31:48):
forever. And ever.
I hope we run into him someday. I don't think.
Because there's no way I can ever just call him Brad.
I just white bread bread. I don't think he doesn't know he
will he. Will he will.
I'm gonna go find him. White bread.
Bread man but he's lovely now. I'm sure he's done some growing
up. Right.

(32:09):
Same, right, same Like I wouldn't have treated him like I
treated him yeah, now, because when I did when I was 22, yeah,
you know, 23. But.
But the list for those you know,I wish I had started earlier on
the list maybe, but like. I mean, it's powerful.
It's so helpful. Yeah, it's so informative.
I mean, that's when we got to and.

(32:29):
Not about them, right? The list isn't about no, it's
about your needs. It's.
Your needs, it's like, are they being fulfilled or not?
And yeah, what goes on the pros,what goes on the yes this cup is
filled list. And what goes on the no this cup
is not filled list. Raining my cup.
How important are they? Yeah, I mean, that's what that
was one thing I went to Nick with and I was like, my pros and
cons list is not even we have a problem.

(32:50):
Yeah, my, I have more cons than pros.
That's not sustainable for me. I refuse to accept misery for
the sake of whatever it is. Yeah.
A picture, a societal norm, an expectation of saving face, what
however you want to label it. And I and, and, you know,

(33:13):
fortunately we moved in a, in a positive direction for a
relationship, but some people don't.
And I think when people don't, Ithink that's also incredibly
valuable. I have a girlfriend, one of my
best girlfriends right now, lefther husband a year ago.
And man, for like the last couple of years that she was in

(33:35):
it, I just, every day was like, please, will you fucking leave
him? I never said it out loud, right?
But like every time I interactedwith her, that was just like all
I could think of in my brain. And I would just be like asking
questions like, oh, how does that make you feel?
What do you think about that? Trying to be supportive, trying
to, like, put it back on her to arrive at the conclusion on her
own. And the whole time I'm like,

(33:55):
this man is fucking garbage. He's never going to change.
He's showing you with his actions that he's never going to
change. I don't give a fuck about the
words coming out of his mouth because they are meaningless
when they are held up against his actions.
And she is having this incredible transformation right
now. Hell yeah.
I mean, fucking incredible transformation.

(34:16):
Let's send her a button. Let's send her a button.
We don't have a. What does that mean?
I don't know. Are buddies, are buddies buttons
that we're going to create? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, she's an Annie for sure.
She she is having this amazing transformation.
She is like almost a year sober.She is like having this whole
recreation of her person and hercareer and and like she just is.

(34:40):
It's really amazing to see. And she is able to do that
because she was able to leave this relationship that was no
longer serving her well. Suffocating her.
Yeah. And so that's like, to me,
that's that's, and I'm not saying every person who talks
shit about their partner needs to leave their partner, but for
me, that's where the threshold is.
When even when, even when thingsin my marriage were like at

(35:00):
their worst and I was scraping the bottom of the barrel, my
outward narrative was not, I fucking hate my husband.
I fucking hate my marriage. Once that becomes my outward
narrative, there's no going back.
So for me it's. Like put that on my Yeah, now I
know. OK, All right.
Once that. Becomes my outward narrative.
There's no going back. So like I can feel that way in

(35:22):
the moment. But if that's when I start to
communicate to the world, then that then that's then that is my
truth. And then that becomes my truth
to other people. And once that becomes your
outward truth, that's not the same as just thinking it, right?
Like once those words pass your lips, that becomes what you
choose to live. And I don't want to live a
reality where I hate my husband.So if I get to a point where

(35:44):
that's the message that I start to put out into the world, then
we shouldn't be together. Yeah.
We have no business being together.
I can be, I can be frustrated. I can be fucking mad.
I can be mad as hell. I can be hurt.
I can be all the things. And I can, I can, you know,
express to people in confidence like I did to you when I came to
you. And I was like, this is fucking
horrible. This is horrible, but never was

(36:04):
there a point where I was like, I fucking hate my husband
because and I don't say it like that to mock anybody who does
speak negatively about their partner.
There's a lot of work that we all need to do right?
But like, I, I want to live out loud the, the life that I want.
And, and a huge part of that, yes, is actions, but it's also

(36:26):
the way I talk the way, the way I speak about anyone.
Well, in the way I speak about my kids.
Speak about your kids. Speak about yourself.
Yeah, right. Which we've talked about to
death on this podcast. It's like how you speak to
yourself, really. Does matter, Yeah.
Because you believe what you say.
We have a whole. Episode about it being mean to
yourself. Yeah, listen to it.
Go listen to it. I don't know what it's #14.

(36:48):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So because like all of those, it's, it's signals, it signals
to your body, it signals to yournervous system, it signals to
your heart. And so like if, yeah, if you're
outwardly talking trash about anybody.
Because I think it goes with friends too.
Yeah, right. Especially in our old age, you
know, like I'm very specific with the people I put around me.

(37:12):
Yeah. And if I can't speak positively
about those people, then they shouldn't be.
That has nothing that that's hasnothing to do with them, right?
That's my choice. And it's like, that's your
boundary. That's my boundary.
And I remember Pat and I actually had a conversation
early in marriage where I'm having, it's a recovered memory

(37:34):
that I'm having listening to youtalk about your guys's dark time
because I think we went through,it wasn't necessarily a dark
time, but I did. I do remember like coming home
from hanging with friends who were all kind of mean to each
other in front of each other or in front of us.
And it was just like, we just made the the contract of like,

(37:55):
let's not do that. Yeah, let's not.
Even though it's in jest maybe. And it's just ha ha giggles
those my inside might not know the difference.
Like hearing you talk poorly about me and vice versa.
And there have been moments, right?
I'm not saying we perfect because we ain't no for sure.
There are moments, and it usually comes from me, where I

(38:17):
say something trying to be funny.
Yeah, that whole truth and sarcasm thing that.
Yeah, this 50% of your jokes arereal.
It's what makes it funny, but italso is what makes it her fault.
So I have a hard time with that just because when I'm
uncomfortable I make jokes. Sure.
When I'm happy, I make jokes. When I'm sad, I make jokes like.

(38:38):
You're resting state. It really is.
And but, and so like Pat and I, but yeah, we had a conversation
where we're just like, let's notbe that couple.
I think too, there's a God. There's two things that I want
to say right now at the same. Time.
I say you have time for both. Let's see if I remember, yeah.
Let's see if I remember the second one by the time I get
through the first one. Yeah, First one is I feel like

(39:01):
we you grow up in an environmentwhere like I feel like looking
back at high school, everybody talks shit about everybody.
Oh yeah. And then at a certain.
Point spilling tea, right? Everyone loves to spill the tea.
Loves to spill the tea. And.
Then at a certain point, you either outgrow that or not.
But I remember there being a very pivotal moment of

(39:24):
transformation where I was like,why am I continuing to put
myself in a situation in an environment and a dynamic in a
relationship with people that make me want to speak negatively
about them? And I shouldn't say make me want
to, right? Because they're not making me
anything but people that lead tome feeling like the thing that I

(39:45):
want to vocalize about them is anegative thing.
That's not those. I have no business being around
those people and they shouldn't want to be around me either.
Right. Like that's not like that should
be a mutual understanding of like, yeah, you know what this
is not like if all I can say is negative things about that
person or that friend group or whatever, then like let's not,
let's not because I want to be. The world is hard enough.

(40:09):
The negativity is everywhere. It's at work, it's at home, it's
with your kids and their teachers and their best friend's
mom and the every fucking headline that we see all day
every day. And like everywhere you turn,
shit is negative. So like, curate the positivity.
And if you have people in your life that you can't say anything
nice about, maybe you should move on to find people that you

(40:32):
can't say nice things about because that's what you should
surround yourself with. Yes.
And so that now, I mean, now that is a pretty strong litmus
for me. Like if I get to a point in a
friendship where I'm just constantly like feeling negative
things about that person, sayingnegative things about the
person, I'm like, oh, it's time for some distance.
And that doesn't mean I shut it down forever, right?

(40:52):
But it's like, OK, I need to step back because this has
gotten to a point where the negative is outweighing the
positive. And so I need to take some time
and like, think on that. What does that mean?
And is it, is it a blip? Is it just a moment in time
where we are on different paths and temporary friction, or is it
like we have outgrown one another?
We have gone in two different directions.

(41:13):
This is the friendship episode, right?
Like were you a flower, or were you a branch, or were you a?
Drunk somebody who just listenedto the episode.
She came up to me at my child's birthday party and she said am
IA flower friend. And did you answer her honestly?
You're not you're you're giving me branch energy.
You're giving me. Branch yeah, you're giving me

(41:34):
branch. Like I do have some some flower
friends, but I just loved that moment because it was just like
I knew exactly what she was talking about and I was like 1.
Thank you for listening and which shout out to filibuster
and which is her nickname? It's not her real name.
I was like no. And and but she was.
I just love that so much and andyou have a second point I don't

(41:59):
want to distract you from. No, no, no, keep going.
Oh, Oh no, now I feel pressure. Sorry, sorry.
Oh, no. Second point.
Sorry. No, I was this is what happens
when I multitask. Yeah, yes.
No. My second point was oh, God.
Oh, come on. Oh, oh, oh, about about being
with people who are just mean toeach other.
We one of my recent, more recenttrips home.

(42:22):
Maybe it was like last, Oh, it was for Christmas.
We went out with my parents, go out to brunch every Sunday with
these friends that they have. Cute.
And or maybe it's not every Sunday, but they have they have
regular dates with these friendsand.
The brunch friends. Yeah, yeah.
So we went out to brunch with them on a Sunday and they, these

(42:43):
friends of my parents, were so mean to my parents the whole
time. So mean to them, like openly
critical, like, and not in a joking way, like mean.
And like, you know, the wife satthere the whole time and like,
criticized everything on her plate and was like, this is
terrible. It's too salty.
The eggs are overcooked. Like neither one of them had a
positive thing to say. Yeah, go to a different Denny's.

(43:06):
Yeah. Or like, send it back babe, ask
for a new one. Also, did you communicate your
expectations? What kind of eggs did you tell
them to make you? You know, like, can you advocate
for yourself to get what you want instead of just sitting
there and being pissed and then deciding you're not going to
leave the server a tip because you're pissed about a thing you
never said you wanted? Shame on you, Karen.
Shame on you, Karen. But anyway, at the end they were

(43:27):
just like, like, not like I feellike there are those friendships
that kind of toe the line where you like razz each other a
little bit and you're kind of being a Dick.
But also it's in jets. And.
It's like, yes, yes, 100%. We roast each other.
This was not that. They were just mean.
And then at the end of brunch, we're going to pay the bill.
And it's like me, my brother, mydad, my stepmom, and then

(43:50):
they're two friends. And so we're like splitting up
the bill, us on one bill, them on the other bill.
And he the friend turned somebody out and he's like, oh,
you can't buy us brunch. And like, not in the joking way,
but like literally gave my dad shit for not picking up their
tab. And so my dad like just took his
check from him and and handed his card to the server for both
of the tabs. And I'm sitting there fuming
inside like why the fuck would you do that?

(44:12):
Like no, now you double down andsay fuck you buy your own
brunch. I was.
Like what are you talking about?So like those kinds of friends
get them out. Those aren't friends.
And I did to my dad. I was like I was like, do you
guys have positive interaction? I'm just curious like do you
guys have positive interactions with those friends ever because
or like is that how it always? Is the routine.
And he like sort of laughed it off and he was like, oh, you
know, no, we have positive reactions too.

(44:34):
But I'm like that's. Is that a generational thing, do
you think? Because like, I have some elders
in my life, not my parents, other people in my life that I'm
not going to name specifics, butthey have friends that have
treated them poorly and have treated their children poorly.

(44:54):
And I'm like, how are you? Why?
Why are you still friends with them?
Like they literally listen, let's just go for it.
I was like, they got kicked out of a summer vacation that they
did every single year because our generation had children and

(45:18):
the elders didn't like that. They were like, you brought that
loud baby on our vacation. No more.
You're nobody's invited. And then when their kids had
kids, oh, look who's all invited.
Back, of course. And of course, so and they go
every year. These are my in laws.
And I was like, I don't, I don't, I don't get it.

(45:39):
Because like that they treated your children.
Yeah. Heinously.
Yeah. That's your blood.
They treated your family. Your blood Family.
You still. Consider them friends.
Yeah, I don't get that. I don't get that.
I'm uncomfortable with that. Me easy for me to do.
I was just like, fuck it, I don't care.
I don't need that vacation. I don't want to be there.

(46:00):
And but Pat was like his feelings were really hurt, as
they should be, understandably. Yeah, And and I'm, you know, me.
I was just like, well, let's make our own thing.
Like who? Fuck em.
Fuck. Yeah.
But I just I yeah, I don't. Maybe it's a generational thing
of like, I don't want to hurt myfriends feelings, but I'm like,
why? Those are not friends.
Yeah. If they're going to treat you
like that, they are not your friends because it's a repeated

(46:23):
thing. Like everybody's allowed a bad
day, right? But like, not if you're going to
be a Dick on the repeat. Yeah, no gracias.
You don't get my you don't get my magic, right?
Which is easy, easy for me to say that.
But it is hard. And it's easier in the old age
to think that and, and and act on that when I've had people in

(46:45):
my life who just don't. I'm just like every time I'm
around you, I feel. Yeah, yucky, yucky.
So I'm gonna say that's my cue to exit and not because of
anything, like I'm fine. Like I, I hold.
No, I don't need to be a Dick onmy way out.
Yeah. No, right.
I just don't. I'm not gonna make it a priority
to spend the time. Yeah, because I don't like

(47:09):
feeling like that. And I just don't.
I don't get people who do. I just, I, I struggle with
surprise compassion when it comes to people who are
choosing. Choosing, I don't know if that's
struggling with compassion, which I do agree with you, I
think is a generational difference that kind of goes
back to the the whole root of this conversation, which is how
you speak about your partner, right?

(47:29):
And like how you choose to existwithin your marriage is the same
in how you choose to exist within your friendships is like
what? What benefit?
What are the pros and cons list?What joy do you do you get joy
out of this relationship? And if not, like, have a
conversation with about with them about it.
It's a communication that, yeah,I mean, maybe it's just because

(47:51):
I like communicating. It's so much better than not.
But but I mean, I have been around other partnerships that
are you can tell that they are letting some internal monologue
come out when they're surroundedby people because that's like,
maybe it's joking, maybe it's not.
But it's like, OK, as somebody who's pretty funny and I like

(48:15):
comedy, I'm going to tell you that that's real coming out.
That ain't that ain't joking. You're not.
Joking there, pal. Yeah, you're subtly or not so
subtly hinting to your partner about things that annoy you when
I'm like, but have you said it to their face?
Yeah. Have you talked about it?
Have you talked about it? Because like, why not, right?
Like why do you have to wait? I actually I had and this man,

(48:37):
this takes cojones and I respectthe hell out of this person who
I'm not going to name names, butis somebody group of our friends
and one of the couples would always fight in front of us.
Always fight, fight, fight, bicker, bicker, bicker, bicker,
bicker, bicker. And one of the gals in the group

(48:57):
said said to them was like, you know what?
I noticed that every time you'rein front of us, you are arguing
and it makes me uncomfortable and I would appreciate it if you
stopped. And I said, I want the size of
your nuts, please. Because like, I don't know if I
have the cajones to say that to somebody.
And I, and they received it and they heard and they, it did die

(49:21):
down for a while. It rears its ugly head
sometimes. But like, for the most part, it
was, it was fine or it's fine because we're all still friends,
right? And but I, I was just like, I, I
love that boundary that you set.You're like, I don't want to
stop hanging out with you. But when we do hang out, you
guys argue a lot and I'd appreciate it if you just

(49:42):
didn't. And like, yes, thank you for
trusting us with your dirty laundry, but I am not your maid.
Yeah, yeah. And also, like, don't like now
you're hijacking everyone's. That was the thing about the
brunch that made me so upset. I was like, we just came off of
this week at home. Like, we're home for Christmas.
It's a week with my family. We don't see my family very
often. It's the whole family.
It's my brother and his kids, mydad, my stepmom, my aunts and my

(50:04):
uncles. And like, everyone's together.
It just feels cozy and, yeah, homey.
And it's so nice. And this was literally our last
day. Sunday, we're driving back to
Seattle. I go meet them for brunch.
That's what happens. And I'm like, first of all, that
was my last meal with my family.So like, you know what I never
want to repeat? Is that so?

(50:25):
So. No more brunch if.
My limited exposure to these people, I'm like noted, don't
ever need to spend time with these friends of my parents ever
again. So, so like then I'm putting
myself in that mindset in my parents shoes and I'm like, why
don't they care that this was our last meal together and it
was completely hijacked by thesepeople who just want to be angry

(50:45):
about the world. I mean, they were angry about
everything. She was talking about what her
daughter named her baby and was just angry about the baby's name
and was like, what? Who even names their kid that to
me? And I'm like, your daughter did
at least one person on this planet.
And also like it's not your fucking baby.
Why do you feel like it's any? Is the baby healthy?

(51:07):
Is the baby happy? Is the baby cared for?
Is your daughter happy? Like shouldn't those be the
important things? So anyway to, to all that to say
like they it would be great if we could have that conversation
if, if in the future there were an opportunity for us to spend
time with them again. And I would say, hey, I'm not
comfortable with that. I feel like they hijacked our

(51:29):
time together last time. I didn't enjoy being there
around them. They didn't make me feel good.
I'm happy to have a conversationwith them or I'm happy to have
you have a conversation with them about, you know,
boundaries, but I guarantee you would not go well.
That. Doesn't mean I won't say
something. Those people are not open for
feedback, those people. Are not open for feedback.
So like I love in this scenario that being open for feedback is

(51:50):
so important. When you because you can't you,
you don't know how you're you'renot OK.
What are words? You don't know how people are
receiving how you're living, right?
And which is also sometimes noneof your business.
But if it is a friendship or it is a partnership, it does

(52:10):
matter, right, because it's a two way St. in that kind of
scenario. Yeah.
I mean, I'm a firm person. Like I have said this about my
family. I've said this about my friends,
I've said this about Pat. It's like I I will go the
distance. I will meet you halfway in any
relationship, but I have to notice that you're you're

(52:32):
trying. To yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because if you're not, if it's always I have to come to you, if
it's always you have to fit intomy schedule, if it's like I
never hear from you unless I reach out, if it's any of that,
yeah, after a while, I'm just going to disappear from your
life. And it's not because it's just
I've set the boundary and because you've not in my life,
then then you weren't part Privyto that, to it.

(52:54):
Yeah, sorry. And part of the I like kind of
love relationships like that. When that happens because or
like this brunch, these brunch people, yeah, they'll be like,
great. I don't have to ever think about
that again. Yeah, ugly.
Yeah, I just cleared out a wholecompartment in my head, like
free. Space.
I'm not free space. Look at my water closet, you
know? Look at that.
Look at that powder room in there hell.
Yeah. So which, you know, I mean, we

(53:16):
talked about that in the Friendsepisode where it's like, I don't
want to ghost people, but you have to, it's a you have to show
some kind of want to be in my life as well.
Yeah, that effort is, is important.
And also, I mean, and in marriages, that effort is so
important to the energetic effort, the energetic investment

(53:37):
into the relationship. If that is not equal or at parts
equal, right? Like there will be times where I
invest more, there will be timeswhere Nick invest more, invests
more, But there has to be some kind of overtime, some kind of
equity there, right? And like going back to the root

(53:58):
of this about like the friends that talk shit about their
husbands. And I don't want to make a
gender specific, the people who talk shit about their partners
in all kinds of relationships, in all kinds of partners.
If you're not having those conversations of saying, I feel
like one of us is energetically investing more in this
relationship than the other. And like and like sitting

(54:20):
through the discomfort of getting through to the other
side of that, getting through tothe why of the other side of
that, rather than like letting, letting your fears of the
narrative that you've created prevent you from having that
conversation, then you're not doing the relationship any
favors. And, and the relationship has to
be its own entity, right? Like I am my own person.

(54:40):
Nick is his own person. Our relationship is its own
thing that requires food and water and light and independent
of me requiring food and water and light, independent of Nick,
independent of our children, independent of our family
dynamic of the four of us, the relationship is still an
entirely separate entity. And if you're not, if one person

(55:04):
is more energetically invested than the other and you're not
talking about it, then you got bigger problems.
Because the more you don't talk about something, the more you
just create narratives in your own mind.
And there is no better way to lie to yourself than to create
your own narratives. That's a she's a fickle
mistress. That, that, that narrative.
Yeah, the storytelling and the assumptions.

(55:26):
Because we always assume the worst.
Yeah. And I mean, that was a huge
turning point of for Pat. And I have like, don't just
assume the worst of me because we went through a time when that
was what we'd do be like, well, I guessed, you know, I just
assumed you weren't weren't going to do that because blah,
blah, blah. And it's like, why are you
assuming the worst of me? Am I not your person?

(55:48):
Like am I not? Are we not in this?
Together, are we not a team Likeit is not you against me,
against the problem, it's you and me.
Together. Together against the problem.
Yeah, right. And I remember when Finn was
born and we were deep in the early stages of parenthood.
The dark, the trauma, the traumatizing.

(56:10):
Times and I would get I would nitpick the shit out of Pat.
I was like why is he folding thethe towels that way?
He did you not see all the time I spent to organize Why is he
not doing the dishes the way that I that I do it?
Why isn't that? I was just like, finding
everything to put all of my internal negativity that I was
feeling out on him. Yeah.

(56:31):
To try to like trauma bond with this person Who wouldn't?
Need the trauma? It's like you will trauma bond
with me right now. Not necessary.
Tori, it's like, oh. But my mom was like, hey, Tor,
how about you're just grateful that he's doing it?
Like, like, which was yucky for me to feel.

(56:52):
I was like, shut up. Leslie, you're.
Not my real mom. Oh wait, you're not.
My real mom. You're not my real mom where I
was just like she's like he's doing his best.
Like maybe he's not, maybe it's not the way that you envisioned,
but like at least he's doing it and he she's like, I think you
need to like maybe release some of the control that you're
trying to just dominate his whole being with.

(57:18):
Because I was like, do it my wayand like, why, right.
He is my partner. Like he is do he is doing his
best. I'm doing my best.
We're all just trying to do our best.
I'm. Just trying to survive sleep
deprivation. But I mean when then?
Holy nipples. No nipples.
I had no nipples. I mean that man.

(57:42):
Anyway, so many other stories I could tell about how he's just
done. He's gone above and beyond.
You know the meeting me halfway,placenta in a bucket.
Let's Yeah, placenta in a bucket.
Have I never told you that story?
Why was it in a bucket? Because it was.
COVID and I had to get it outside to the lady who was
going to make it into pills. Oh, he delivered.

(58:04):
He he transported your. Placenta, he was like, never
again Tori. He had to dump it from like the
thing that they gave it to him in.
Yeah, he had to put it in something that he could take
outside. Oh man, placentas are so cool.
And well, he doesn't feel like that because he was like he had
to go into like the bathroom andtake it and like dump it into a
bucket or a bag. So he was like this man who's

(58:25):
pretty, doesn't love a lot of blood.
He's like in this. And I'm like, can't feel my legs
holding the baby. Like.
And we have no one because it's COVID, right?
You're by yourself. He's and like the nurses were
like, we can't because of COVID,whatever.
We here's a placenta. And so like he and he's like,
where do I go? And I didn't know this lady like

(58:46):
I I don't remember how I found her, but unless they were a
friend, one of my Yogi friends. And so he like to he's in the
bathroom like dumps it into the thing to transport it to the
stranger in the alley of. He's like a drug, right?
Yeah. He's just like, I'm never doing

(59:08):
that again. And I was like, this is our last
baby, so you don't ever have to deal with the placenta.
But thank you for doing it. They was trying to help my baby
Blues after, which I think they did.
It was, oh, yeah. You know, like, you know, it
might have been a placebo. It could have been somebody
else's placenta. I don't know.
But I took him and I felt a lot better.
It was also for like milk production.
We'll talk about that I. Still have some wine in the

(59:29):
freezer I. Think I still have some wine and
I don't want to get rid of them because I'm like good job.
You did it well. They also say you can save them
from menopause. Well.
We have which we still somebody has asked us to talk about
menopause. So many people have.
Yeah, so we'll have to. We're going to dive, but we want
to be educated for it. I have a lot of things to Yeah,
I have a lot of things to say about menopause.

(59:50):
And but anyway we should. Anyway, not the point of this
episode, No. Yeah.
Sturdy, sturdy partners. Sturdy partners.
Strong women. This.
Sturdiness starts with your expectations, I think.
And communication and community.You cannot be sturdy if you are
not communicating with one another.
Yeah, and you're allowed to change.
They are also allowed to change.Yeah, and you are allowed to

(01:00:13):
communicate new needs. That's where the sturdiness
comes from. Hey.
Hi there. I have a new need.
Hi, by the way, it's me, your new wife who just gave birth and
will never be the same person again.
Whole new person. Nice to meet you.
Welcome. Here we are.
New needs, new expectations. Here they are.
Let's figure it out. And if it keeps coming, I mean,
man, yeah, I just have some. I still have so many more

(01:00:35):
thoughts about it, but we have run out of time.
But lightning round go what are they?
Just like I mean, no. She works well under pressure.
No, I don't. I I think it's just it's if you
see something, say something like if something is truly

(01:00:57):
bothering you, what is? The New York MTA.
Yeah, I mean, like, but like, it's the same reason somebody
doesn't talk to us because we'restrong, scary women.
It's like, I'm afraid to bring up my needs.
I'm afraid to be too much. I'm afraid of that they're going
to, of how they're going to react.
And it's like, right there is your problem.

(01:01:17):
If you're fearful of how they'regoing to react, you haven't
figured out a way to communicateproperly.
And so like, boom, there's let'sdeal with that number one,
let's, let's send each other some Instagram memes of solid
parenting from therapists and start there.
Because I mean, that's how Pat and I will anytime we see it on
Instagram, like something has todo with like a marriage or

(01:01:37):
building strong relationships orchild rearing or anything that
truly inspires us, we send it tothat person and we're like how
you feel about. It Yeah, we do the same thing.
Yeah. Should we adopt this?
Yeah. Because sometimes it is nice to
have a third party. I mean, that's why, you know,
marriage counseling is real and everyone should do it.
My God. Highly recommend.
Our therapist is the fucking tits.

(01:01:59):
The fucking tits. The.
Tits, the fucking tits. And it's also OK to say no.
Yeah. It's OK to walk away.
Yeah. From partners and friendships
because we all keep evolving. If those people can evolve with
you, gosh, I mean, and family members.
That's a whole different. That's a whole another chestnut,
you know. But to your point about

(01:02:22):
communicating right, like if youhave decided that it's a scary
thing that you, that you think I'm going to react in a negative
way, that means you haven't figured out how to communicate
it. That communication to me is what
creates the sturdiness because you and I, as strong women, we
know what we want and we know how we're gonna get it.
And that makes us strong women, but that doesn't make us rigid.

(01:02:43):
We have there is there is a lot of flexibility in our strength.
It's like our I'm. A yoga instructor.
All the time in anatomy training, right?
Strength is the full contractionand extension of a muscle.
If you can only contract a muscle and not extend it, it's
not strong. If you have huge biceps that are
so strong that you can't fully extend your arm, you're not

(01:03:04):
strong. You have big muscles, strength
means the ability to strength means flexibility, right?
You cannot be 1 without the other.
You have yes, you have to adapt.And so that is what that is what
comes with us being strong people, right?
It's like you come to me and yousay, hey, here's this concern I
have. Here's something I need from you
that's different. Whatever we will adapt together.

(01:03:27):
If if there is sturdiness, the strength and sturdiness can
coexist. But if you are scared, this is
something that Nick and I had towork through.
If you are scared, if you come to me and you're timid and
you're like, well, I think when I what I need is like nothing is
going to make me more rigid thanthat kind of approach.
That's how you get. Anti rigidity.
You want to come to me like that?

(01:03:47):
Get out. Get out.
Because I don't want to feel a power dynamic.
I don't want to feel in control.Strength and being in control
are not the same thing. I don't want to feel in control
of our marriage. I don't want to feel in control
of someone who's supposed to be my equal.
I want to feel like we are both in control and we are both
working towards something together.
And if it feels like I am the one who is having to lead the

(01:04:07):
ship and drag the fucking boulder up the hill by myself,
there's no. I might as well do it by myself,
that's exactly. Right, there is no quicker way
to guarantee a negative outcome.Yep, that coming and being timid
with me, that is a surefire way of me burning the house down.
Oh, it's like, yeah. I see.
I see. Just rage.

(01:04:27):
I mean, that's the ball dance that my mom gave Pat when we
first started dating. Yeah.
That conversation of like, my dude, you better buckle up
because she is she is really strong.
She is. And she can be really sturdy.
She's rooted deep into the earth.
So if you want to, like, climb that tree, then you better sack
up. Yeah.
And put on your harness. Yeah.

(01:04:49):
And learn how to communicate. We came from two different
families that communicate way different than each other.
Yeah. And so it took a long time to
for us to figure out our own communication style.
Yeah, and how to be sturdy and strong together.
Yes. And like, keep me accountable.
Like I need somebody to keep me account and be like, hey, Tori,

(01:05:10):
you're kind of scorching earth right now.
Right now. And I'd be like, what do you
mean? And and then he'll be like,
here's why you don't need to do that.
I'm here also to take a little bit of the brunt.
Yeah. And or, you know, work through
some bad ideas before we go out there into the world together.
Yeah, and bear some of the burdens to so that you're not
bearing it on your own. Yeah, sturdy.

(01:05:32):
Sturdy. Come on, Dirty.
Expect more, be more. More and more.
Yeah, but we love that you're here and being.
Our sturdy friends way to be sturdy friends way to be sturdy
husbands. Yeah.
If you're if you're partnered and you are not a sturdy
partner, get it together. I say this with all the love in

(01:05:54):
my heart. Get it together for the sake of
yourself and your relationship. Mm hmm.
Like like Les Leslie said to Pat, you got a nut up, nut up.
Fucking stand in your door, stand in your power.
Nobody wants a partner that can't stand in their power.
Nobody wants that. Well, that's not true.
Yucky people want that. You don't want to be with a
person who wants that. No, no, but we we would love to

(01:06:18):
hear like if any tips and tricksof your how you have
communicated with the people in your lives.
Yeah, how do you make it? Work.
How do you make it work? You can send it on Instagram,
e-mail, text, all the things Facebook.
Yeah, LinkedIn and there is a Facebook.
But like, comment, share. Thank you for being here.

(01:06:39):
We love you. You guys are the best.
Seriously, seriously, you guys when, when you, when your
feedback, when you interact withus, even if it's not on the on
the podcast platforms, right? Like hearing from you is so
valuable for us because otherwise we're just like in a
silo being like, does this even matter?
Does anybody care? And it's nice to see when, you
know, when we see you guys listening week over week, it's

(01:07:01):
that's some validation. But like hearing from you guys
is is so helpful because we knowwhat lands and also what
doesn't. It's also helpful for us when
you're like, I don't fucking care about that.
Yeah, truly. So yes.
And and see you next Tuesday. Bye bye go be sturdy and stuff.
Be it. Don't be IKEA.

(01:07:23):
Don't be on my hog in the desk.