November 17, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, we delve into the complexities of balancing professional ambitions with personal and family responsibilities, particularly for women and caregivers. Our guests, Eva Salem, Senior Vice-President of Marketing and Brand at Canadian Tire Corporation, and Sabrina Kumar Ceccarelli, Vice-President and Assistant General Counsel at Lightspeed Commerce, share their personal experiences and insights. They discuss the mental load, societal expectations, and the often invisible work that contributes to burnout. The conversation also explores strategies for setting boundaries and managing the pressure to be perfect, offering valuable perspectives for anyone navigating these challenges.
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Episode Transcript
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SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI:
People fear repercussions. (00:00):
undefined
(00:01):
And I've had so many ofmy friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,if I tell my work that this
has happened, they knowI'm trying to have a child,
are they going tohold it against me?
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I'veseen it go both ways.
And now I've seen it start toget better in organizations,
where that isn't the case.
Where it's a supportiveenvironment, and that individual
is given time off todeal with their issues.
ANNOUNCER (00:23):
Welcome to Learning in Action,
your trusted source ofnew research, insights,
and practical advice oncritical issues in business,
presented by the Ivey Academy.
In today's episode, we'rediving into a topic that
impacts nearlyevery professional,
whether directly or indirectly.
(00:43):
Gender and familydynamics in leadership.
Balancing career progressionwith family responsibilities
is challenging.
And it often comeswith unique pressures,
especially as workplaceexpectations and family roles
evolve.
Today, we'll explore howgender roles and caregiving
responsibilitiesshape the leadership
(01:03):
paths of many professionals,impacting everything from career
growth to work-life balance.
To unpack these themes, we'rejoined by an exceptional panel.
Sabrina Kumar Ceccarelli, VicePresident and Assistant General
Counsel at Lightspeed Commerce.
Eva Salem, Senior VicePresident of Marketing and Brand
(01:25):
at Canadian Tire Corporation.
And Janice Byrne,Assistant Professor
in Entrepreneurshiphere at Ivey.
Each of them brings a uniqueperspective and wealth
of experience in balancinghigh-impact careers
with family roles in advocatingfor more inclusive workplaces.
In this episode, ourguests will discuss
how caregiving roles intersectwith career advancement,
(01:49):
the ways organizations canbetter support caregivers,
and the leadershipshifts needed to foster
an inclusive environment.
Here's your host, BrianBenjamin, with today's guests.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (02:01):
Janice, I want to get started
with exploring sort of thebroad intersection of caregiving
and career progression.
And so from yourperspectives, what
sorts of caregivingresponsibilities
impact career growth andleadership opportunities
in today's rapidly evolvingand ever changing workplace?
JANICE BYRNE (02:22):
Absolutely.
We've got so manydifferent interpretations
and understandingsof caregiving.
And so we've got perhapslike new mothers returning
to the workplace.
We've got workingparents maybe who
are living in cities where theydon't have family support, maybe
new cities, or maybethey're expatriates.
We've got freshly divorcees,people figuring out
(02:44):
new living arrangements.
And then there's anawful lot of people
who are involved in elder careor caring for people at home,
maybe with a serious illness.
A quarter of the Canadiansover the age of 45 who provide
care to a family memberor a close friend
with serious illness.
So lots of differenttypes of caregivers.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (03:02):
Yeah.
And thank you for that context.
The care extendsthe full continuum.
We always talk aboutgoing full circle, right?
And many are not just havingsmall children at home,
but also elder care andothers within that portfolio.
So let's go to you next, Eva.
I'm going to giveyou a quick heads up
(03:22):
so you can think about this.
And so new mothersreturning to the workplace.
Eva, can you share withus sort of what the return
to work experience was like,especially with a US lens on it,
if you will?
EVA SALEM (03:35):
Yeah, I was working in the States
during that phase of my life.
I'll start by saying we've madeso much progress between when
I had my kids and whatis currently happening.
It was harsh, I will say.
It was literally likeeight to 10 weeks.
You came back, itwas full throttle.
(03:55):
It was five days a week.
I worked in thecosmetics industry.
So it was largely females.
And it was a lot of veryexhausted women trying
to re-acclimate when theirbodies and their lives
were really justturned upside down.
If I compare that realityto what I'm seeing now,
I am encouraged.
(04:15):
I do feel like we'vemade a lot of progress.
I think it's much moreacceptable professionally
to take the time that you need.
COVID in particular,I would say,
eased that transition evenmore for new moms returning.
Yeah, my experience, itwas a very difficult time.
There really was not muchsupport around it as well,
(04:36):
like nursing rooms andthat kind of stuff.
Even female groupswithin organizations
didn't really existfor the most part.
So you had your peer group,and you kind of relied
on your peer group, butthere was nothing systemic
or structural in anyof the corporations
at the time that was there tosupport women during this really
difficult time.
We've come a long way.
(04:56):
I think that's very encouraging.
But obviously there'sstill work to be done.
And I'd be curious in Sabrina'stake on it with a one-year-old.
You're living atreal-time right now.
And even the paternityside of things,
that stuff did not happenwhen I was having my kids.
So it's an interestingcontrast, I think, probably
to Sabrina's perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (05:18):
And thank you for sharing that, Eva,
and also shining a spotlighton some of the progress
and where it has been made.
And clearly, we'lldig into progress
that has not yetbeen made and where
we need to go andhopefully into the future.
But Sabrina, why don't you--
you've got a pretty fulland active house in addition
to a pretty full andactive career right now.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI (05:40):
Yeah.
And it's alwayssuch a cruel irony
that your careerseems to take off
at the same time you'reexpected to raise
these super young childrenthat need you the most.
So I am coming tothe last month.
Actually, November 2 will be theone month mark of an 18-month
maternity leave.
This was a leave I tookwith my third child.
And it has been anamazing experience.
(06:05):
It's kind ofcompounded by the fact
that I have these twoother children at home.
So in addition to being able tospend the time with the baby as
needed, I've also beenable to really indulge
in those other two children,where I'm not always
able to do that.
The anecdote that I'd giveyou, and it's not a great one,
but my job is very demanding.
(06:26):
And I took off like two weeksbefore my scheduled C-section.
And I did a couple ofthings with my kids.
We were making littlearts and crafts.
And my son, he looked at me.
I literally had donelike two things.
This was the secondthing I'd done.
And he said, mom, you'redoing so much with us now.
And it washeartbreaking, but also
(06:48):
kind of like a reality checkmoment of, my goodness,
my time is going withthese young kids,
and I'm not even seeing it.
I'm not even able to catch up torealize that, hold on, how mired
in my corporate world am I?
So part of thatinforms my decision
to take the 18 months, becauseI felt like it was time
spent with all three.
(07:08):
And I have worked for a bossat one point who said to me,
at some point in my career,what's $10,000 in the span
of a career?
And I would offer that to women.
What is six more--
women or whoeverthe caregiver is.
What is six more monthsin the span of a career?
For me, I work in tech.
It was going to be a chaoticand challenging environment
(07:28):
if I had left only a three-monthleave or a four-month leave.
Things move so fast.
So me coming back at 18 monthsversus 12 months versus eight
months, I feltlike the challenge
was going to be the same.
And so I took the full time.
And we are so lucky inCanada to have that time.
Because I haveworked for companies
with American employees,where women are going back
(07:49):
at six months with C-sectionstitches unhealed still.
And so should you havethe financial means
and be able to structureyour life in that way,
I would offer women thatsame kind of question.
Is, what is six more months inthe span of a career if it's
something you want to do?
And when I was on the socialrecently, one thing I said
was we are oftenfearful of losing
(08:10):
the momentum of ourcareer, but the success
that has so often gotten usto where we are is within us.
It's that skill set.
It's what we've applied.
It's the kind ofinterpersonal skills
that we've developed fromour education and experience.
And those things can be deployedin multiple environments.
So I went back to ajob after my second
(08:31):
that wasn't working for me.
I could sense it wasn't goingto get to where I wanted to be.
And so that's when Imoved to Lightspeed.
And it was the best moveI made for my career.
So I would reallyencourage caregivers
to have that faith inthemselves and be fearless
kind of when you'rereentering the workforce.
Because if you are confidentand you are hardworking,
that those opportunitieswill come your way.
(08:53):
They just may be unexpected,but that can be a great thing.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (08:56):
Oh, I love the word fearless.
Yeah, I think youtouched on something
that I think so many have had.
As a young voice can reallycreate a big sort of aha
moment in terms oftime and attention.
And yeah, I really like yourframing it over a 30-plus year
(09:18):
career, right, isa moment in time.
And it's not to diminish themoment in time and how crucial
that is, but sometimes tryingto toggle that with something
a little bit longer.
I want to shift andtake the conversation
around the role ofthe organization.
I think all three of you hit onsome really important pieces,
(09:38):
which, what can wecontrol as humans,
ourselves as humansworking within the context
of an organizationin many cases?
And how do organizations bettersupport leaders, and especially
senior leaders, those withbig roles and big portfolios,
balancing sort of thecaregiving responsibilities?
(10:02):
And that could bea child caregiving,
it could be parent caregiving.
For many, it could beboth, and getting it
at all sides of thecontinuum, if you will.
Especially at sortof that age where
career is often hitting astride and things are humming.
So we'll talk about whatorganizations can do,
(10:24):
and then I do want totalk about what does it
mean for early careerand new mothers that are
at different stages as well.
So, Eva, I'm going to bring yourvoice into the conversation here
first.
EVA SALEM (10:38):
On the maternity leave side,
I think organizations arefairly progressive at this point
in understanding theneed to retain talent,
to keep female futureleaders at the table.
The cost of losingthat kind of talent
and retraining andwhatever, I think
there's a level ofawareness and action
(11:00):
and structural andsystemic change that has
taken place, which is great.
On the other parts ofthings, like caring
for elderly parentsand that side of stuff,
I think it's stillearly days corporately.
There really is not a lotof acknowledgment outside
of specific teams andmanager-employee relationships,
(11:21):
at the larger, more macrolevel, enterprise-wide,
when it comes to care, otherthan I would say, maternity
leave.
So I think that's an areathat definitely still needs
a lot of attention.
I think it tends to alsoreally affect senior leaders,
because you tend to bea little more further
along in yourcareer, your parents
(11:43):
are a little bitolder, et cetera.
So it's an interestingconundrum where it's actually
the people who should besetting the policies who are
being affected the most by it.
So I think thoseare conversations
that are beginning to happen.
I know here at CanadianTire, for instance,
you go from challengeto challenge,
whether it's maternity orkids' school needs or anxiety
(12:06):
or special learningneeds to elderly parents.
Like, there is always thingsoutside of your work life
that is happening.
And corporations who areable to adjust and support
their talent throughthat are the ones
that ultimately willthrive, both financially
and just in terms of havingthe best talent at the table.
(12:26):
So currently, Iwould say a lot of it
is one-off conversationsand specific to teams
and specific tomanager-employee relationships,
and that shouldn't be the case.
There should be more process.
Even sick leaves, I have to say.
Unless you yourselfare sick, there's
very little leave support,systemic ingrained
(12:46):
leave support for when you area caregiver for someone who
is sick.
And I think those areall areas that are still
areas that need to be addressedfrom a systemic corporate
perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (12:57):
You hit on something really important,
which is the broaderorganizational role.
And yes, there needsto be the one to one
and personal conversations,but ideally, that's
happening within thecontext of something broader
and maybe more well understood.
Janice, I'd love some of yourperspectives on this question.
JANICE BYRNE (13:17):
To build on what both Eva and Sabrina said,
but Eva, when we spokeabout this, the change that
needs to takeplace, I guess there
is structural or systemicthings that can be done.
We also need the culture ofthe organization to match that.
So that these thingsmight be in place,
but we have to see that there'sa supportive culture of when
we avail of these supports.
(13:38):
And I also think the onething that's really important
is just this wholenotion of disclosure,
because we're still operatingthe ideal worker, right?
And sometimes therecan be a stigma,
there can be like a fear of ifI disclose, because whatever
the challenge is thatI'm dealing with,
whether it's jugglingtrying to get
my kids the timingwith the childcare
(13:59):
or whether it's looking aftera sick child or a sick relative
at home, or a sick parent,or an elderly parent,
or a close friend.
When we have these thingsgoing on in our lives,
we're not always--we don't always
feel like we're in a situationwhere we can disclose
and actually talk to, eithertalk to our manager about it,
or if we're in asenior leadership role,
to even talk to oursubordinates about it.
(14:20):
And so we want to think about asituation where we can actually
create organizationswhere there--
we talk aboutpsychological safety,
but it's importantfor so many reasons.
But that is one reason.
So that when if I divulgethis information, if I talk
about the physical logisticchallenges that I'm facing
or even the psychologicalchallenges that I'm face--
If I've got a parent withdementia, and I'm thinking,
how do I deal with?
I'm so worried about them.
(14:41):
I cannot be in my work rightnow because I'm thinking about
what's going to happen at home.
These are allthings that we need
to be able to share atwork, because all of us,
we're going to go throughdifferent strains of this
at some stage.
So it's really creatinga culture and managers
to being aware ofthis so that they
can have these conversations,and they feel like they can
share without feeling thatthey're going to be stigmatized
or rejection, orthat there's going
(15:02):
to be some fearof repercussions,
basically, when they do share.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I've just been nodding along. (15:05):
undefined
This has beenresonating so much.
As a people leaderin the company,
one of the thingsI also think is
that yes, employees needto be encouraged to share,
but also we needto start looking
at training our leaders withhow to respond to those things.
Because it's not always thecase that-- and the example,
we will talk aboutthis later, is
like in the instance, forinstance, of a miscarriage.
(15:26):
If a male leader hasto deal with that,
he needs to know thedelicate nature of how
to go about doing that, as wellas the physical kind of aspects
of it.
So I think-- and myself forlike an elder caregiver,
I would need to be trainedto understand how do I most
appropriately respond to that.
So I feel like thatpiece is really missing.
We're training people onsome gender and some race
(15:46):
and some kind of socialnorms and differences,
but we're missingthis part of it.
JANICE BYRNE (15:52):
100% agree.
I do think it is a gap.
And then in general, thecultural thing is so true.
And the foundation of, atthe end of the day, trust.
And I think trust is easier tobuild sort of one-on-one, person
to person, but it needs to bea broader work culture of trust
(16:13):
so that these things can starthappening at a more standardized
or systemic level as well.
So yeah, that's thebalancing act for sure.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (16:21):
When you-- you hit on some points that were
so important around--
and I look at this, a maleleader within an organization.
And a big part of why I was soexcited for this conversation
is I learned at everystep of the way.
But you hit on something, whichis, some of these conversations
(16:41):
are going to be taking placewith people that will never
understand at the samelevel what someone
has gone throughphysically, emotionally.
But at the same time, they canprovide an appropriate space
to allow for conversationand ideally get to a point
where we figure out someplans for a path forward.
(17:02):
So the idea of psychologicalsafety so that someone
is sharing.
Because we know ifsomeone has a child,
you know that happened, right?
Usually it's very public,and we know that happened,
we know the time frame.
But we've started to talk aboutsome things that unless someone
talks about it, it's actuallyimpossible to know what
(17:24):
someone's going on, andthe weight that they're
carrying into the workplaceand the potential impact
that it's just having ontheir overall well-being.
We talked about traininga little bit, but what can
organizations do to build aculture of psychological safety
so people arecomfortable sharing?
Even if they don't haveit all figured out,
(17:46):
but it's I'mcarrying this weight,
and I want to have thisconversation with someone I
trust without fearof repercussion.
Because I like my job,I like my organization,
I want to be productive,but I'm just--
I'm dealing with stuff.
Like, what can organizations do?
And then, I'd love to talk aboutwhat can individual leaders do
within the system as wellto create that space?
(18:08):
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: One thing
that's worked for meis being transparent
about my struggles and my lifeand trying to lead by example.
And I feel like-- so Ihad a stillbirth, which
was a full-term loss.
And I shared thatwithin the company.
I wrote an article about it.
I've talked about it now on TV.
It's something thateveryone knew about.
(18:30):
So when I had an employeeat an organization
go through somethingsimilar, my hope
is she felt comfortablecoming to me
because she knew that I had kindof talked about this broadly.
But people fear repercussions.
And I've had so many ofmy friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,if I tell my work that this
has happened, they knowI'm trying to have a child,
are they going tohold it against me?
(18:52):
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I'veseen it go both ways.
I've seen it wherepeople have been let go,
and then they do think, didthat inform the decision?
And now I've seen it start toget better in organizations,
where, as you said, there'sa better culture where
that isn't the case.
Where there's a supportiveenvironment, and that individual
is given time off todeal with their issues.
EVA SALEM (19:11):
I couldn't agree more.
I think people learn by example.
I think when yousee senior leaders
being vulnerable andshowing their whole self,
it opens up the opportunityfor others to do that.
We've set up an ERGat Canadian Tire that
is a mental health matters ERG.
I'm the senior sponsor for it.
(19:31):
I bring in senior leadersto talk about the issues
that they're strugglingwith in front
of whoever wants to attend.
And it just helpsdestigmatize the fact
that people are dealing withstruggles at all levels.
And that A, it createsmore empathy in general.
Because as you'reengaging with others,
(19:52):
you're seeing apart of their lives,
you're not seeing everythingthat they're dealing with.
And then in addition to that, itmakes you just conduct yourself
within your teamsin a way that just
has a much broader scope anda much broader understanding
of what's going on.
But I do believe thesethings start at the top.
And I think seeingsenior leaders
lean into theseuncomfortable conversations
(20:16):
for most takes a lot of courage,and that courage is contagious.
And I think it's kind of-- justit's small things that you can
do, but they do sendbig cultural shifts
within the organization.
JANICE BYRNE (20:30):
I think also, Brian,
even just in terms ofwhat concrete things
that organizations cando or practical things
on top of thisculture and the care,
I think there's also practicalthings that we can do easily.
For example, iseven having supports
there in terms ofinformation supports.
So for caregiving, tohave an information
where people can go tofind out new things,
(20:52):
where we can share resourcesor knowledge resources.
Like for example,one thing we've
done here at Ivey actually,because we were recruiting
more and more women faculty.
And one thing we've done hereis you set up in a new city,
you need to find out how doI get kids and summer camp?
And when do I haveto sign them up for?
But that's the really goodone, but I missed the deadline.
It's for January.
Oh, no, what am I going to do?
(21:12):
And now I'm left withall the bad camps,
and my kids don'twant to do them.
But there was all thisinformation about babysitters,
about camps, about allthese different things
that I set up here.
I found it out, butit was all in my head.
And so just sharedinformation portals,
where big organizationscan put that in a city,
could put that informationthere for employees or workers
to be able to avail of it.
I think there'spractical things,
(21:33):
like helpingemployees find out how
to navigate kind of whichhuman resources, like what
are there-- whenpeople return to work.
And obviously, flexiblework arrangements.
There's no doubt about it.
If you need to-- if you needto pick up a child from school,
or if you need to bringyour mom to the doctors,
flexible work arrangements.
Even if it's starting30 minutes later
or being able to takeyour afternoon off.
And feeling that youcan ask for that,
(21:55):
or that that can be given easilywithout any repercussions,
that's important.
[SOFT MUSIC]
BRIAN BENJAMIN (22:08):
Navigating sort of disclosure and sharing,
and we talks aboutfeeding office politics.
And so some of this canbe incredibly personal.
What if you don't wantit to go more broadly?
How do you sort ofstrike that balance
between what do you share, whodo you share, when do you share?
(22:29):
I appreciate there's noperfect answer to this,
but I'd love your perspectives.
Because I worry thatsome may start to feel
overwhelmed and not sharebecause they're not sure where
it will-- where it will go.
EVA SALEM (22:42):
It depends on the individual.
I think you need to dowhat's right for you.
You need to feelsafe, and you need
to feel that you're going toget the support that you're
looking for.
So not everyone needs tohave everyone know everything
about their life, but everyoneis entitled to feel supported.
So I would-- if you aremore private about it
and want to beprivate or don't feel
(23:03):
like you have themanager that you
feel like you can talk to aboutthis, HR, that is their role.
You should definitely bereaching out to your HR people
and figuring outwhat the process is
and how the organizationcan support.
And if you do have arelationship with your boss
where you feel thatyou can trust them,
or people on your team where youfeel that you can trust them,
(23:24):
and you feel speaking andsharing would help you
I hope that you do that.
But it really is sucha personal thing.
And having that flexibilityis really important
to decide whatworks best for you.
And the one thing Iwould encourage people
is to take a moment.
These are big things.
They evolve over time.
They change.
Your needs change.
(23:45):
The crisis that you're dealingwith changes and evolves.
And just giving yourself thepatience and the leniency
and the self-compassion toknow that it's not a one
and done conversationor a moment in time.
And you miss that moment,and now it's inappropriate.
There's just a lot ofself-inflicted pressure
(24:05):
that we put on top of alreadya very pressured situation
that hopefully we can beginto unravel a little bit.
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: Briefly,
what I do with employees whocome to me with such challenges
is I ask them what they wantme to do with that information.
Do you-- for example, if it'sa fertility or something like,
(24:28):
what do you want me?
Do you want me to share thiswith the head of our legal team?
How do you want meto characterize it?
Do you want me tosay you're just--
you're going through a toughtime with some physical issues?
I can frame it howeveryou want me to.
And whether it's by thecompany code or not,
that's how I amgoing to operate.
I'm not going to share somebodyelse's very personal information
(24:48):
except in the waythey want me to.
And I'm also going to bethat person to them who will
hold that in trust for them.
Obviously, there's situationswhere that may be different,
but thus far and whatI've encountered,
I'm able to navigate it ina way that you can share
with me however muchyou feel, and then
you tell me how you want meto pass that information on.
(25:09):
And thus far, that's worked.
And I could certainlysee situations where
it won't, but so far so good.
JANICE BYRNE (25:14):
I think it's also important to think about,
as a manager or as a leader,when people come to you,
so this kind of theopen communication
is extremelyimportant obviously,
as Sabrina talked about.
But I also thinkthat we should always
think about our ownlived experience
and how that can impactand how we can sometimes
make assumptions, actually.
And so when I think back whenme-- when I had my-- when I
(25:35):
was dying to get back to work.
I really wanted toget back to work,
because it wasgoing to be a break.
I could actuallybe in the office
and just have somepeace and quiet.
And if I was going to workon something for an hour,
I could work onsomething for an hour.
It was lovely.
So I was dying to get back.
It's to never make assumptionseither about based perhaps
on your own lived experience.
(25:55):
And also with respect to sharingor not sharing and disclosure,
there is also thisnotion again which
Eva mentioned, iseverybody's different,
and it should be up to them.
And for some people, work canactually be a refuge, right?
And work canactually be a way to,
you've got these differentresponsibilities that--
and sometimes, it can beactually a relief to be at work.
(26:17):
And so that everybodyis different.
So not to make anyassumptions based
on what your knowledgeis of working mothers
or what based on yourexperiences of having
a sick parent ora sick relative.
So that is anotherreason, I guess,
why this open communicationis so important.
And that you try to park yourown kind of previous assumptions
or things that you think are--
because not everybodywants the type of help
you think you might want,and to be mindful of that.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (26:39):
I know I've been guilty of that.
You're sort ofplaying it through,
and I want toconnect with someone.
It's like, oh, I've lost aparent, you've lost a parent,
and we sort of talk about that.
And you immediatelyrecognize like, Oh my gosh,
I can't profess that ourexperiences are alike
in any way.
And people areall sort of coming
(26:59):
from different starting points.
So being able to putthat to the side.
I think it's helpful tohave it in your mind,
because maybe it frames it,but finding the right place
in terms of when it factors in.
Sabrina, your comments aroundwhat do you want me to do,
if anything, withthis information
keeps someone in control, right?
(27:21):
Now I'm in control of theconversation and the narrative.
And maybe I say nothing now.
And maybe in a fewweeks, that changes,
because things evolve andcontinue to look a little bit--
a little bit differently.
So we've talked aboutdisclosure and how we do it.
(27:41):
And I think it's very clear thatthere is no one size fits all.
There's clearly a rolethat the organization can
play, especially aroundcreating support for managers
and what their role couldlook like in leaders
and that cultureof safety, and then
what individuals can doon a case by case basis.
So let's talk about thatculture of reciprocal care.
(28:04):
Where caregivers feelcomfortable seeking
help but also offeringsupport as well.
So we've talked about supportin terms of a listening ear,
what else could support looklike when information is shared
and someone is talkingabout a certain situation?
Or in some cases,we hear situations
(28:27):
where they're dealing with,it's not one piece in isolation,
it's actually I'm dealingwith this and this and this.
And on their own,I can handle it.
But actually, it'sthe combination that's
creating a real challenge.
So what is that-- what is thesort of role of reciprocity
sort of play in this in termsof what organizations can do
and what individualleaders can do?
(28:48):
So I'm going to bring you,Janice, into the conversation
first on this one.
JANICE BYRNE (28:52):
The creation of mutual support among colleagues
is just so important, right?
Both as the supportand the moral support,
but also theinformational aspect.
So really, we wanta situation where
asking for help orsupports is normalized.
So that's what-- we want toget to a stage where we can.
Kind of when we do need--
(29:13):
we do need help with something,that it's not seen as weakness,
or that it's notseen as something
that has negativerepercussions on that,
because it's a give and take.
And that I can help out on this.
And then in thefuture, if there's
going to be leeway given,then I can return the favor.
So that's reallyimportant, I think.
Is really that mutualsupport and among colleagues.
And it can be simplethings, I feel like.
(29:34):
For example, if we go back tothe case of working mothers
or whatever, evenjust organizing
work lunches orthings-- where people
can share experiences,trade kind of like tips,
and that that is organized.
Or that there'stimes in meetings
that are actually parked forpersonal conversations, right?
So that this kind of opencommunication and this care
can be cultivated, Isuppose, in small ways.
(29:55):
And again, I'm thinkingof a lunchtime thing
just because I remember Iused to get stressed out
over the thought that somethingwould be on after work,
and I wouldn't beable to go, right?
BRIAN BENJAMIN (30:02):
So true.
Something I want to bringinto the conversation,
we have gender inthe title here.
What are you noticing interms of employees and sort
of what they'redealing with and what
they're coming forward with?
Is there-- I'm trying tofigure out how to phrase this--
female comingforward and saying,
(30:23):
this is kind of whatI'm dealing with.
Male coming forward and saying,this is what I'm dealing with.
Are you seeing any differences?
And what role canorganizations do
to maybe expand the notionaround family and caregiving
and the role that differentcaregivers, regardless
(30:43):
of gender, are playing.
And challenges thatcaregivers have
when we think about itacross the full continuum.
Especially as itrelates to elder care
or beyond thematernity piece that
may have very specificneeds that are occupying
a lot of time for some parents.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I can speak a little bit (31:04):
undefined
to the childcare piece.
One thing is weuse Slack at work,
which is like an instantmessaging program.
And one thing that I hadnoticed, and I don't think I
started doing it, I thinkI saw it from someone else.
Is that when someonehad a sick kid at home,
there'd be a little emoji andsay like, sick kid at home.
So that's just a verysmall representation,
but it creates this kindof immediate comfort.
(31:27):
And I started using it, andpeople on my team use it.
That like we all understandwhat that's like.
And we're kind of jugglingbeyond the normal juggle
of a work day.
So again, it's that piece oflike, I think you can say tone
from the top or beingopen about the struggles
that you're undergoing,and also just
(31:49):
having that kind ofunderstanding of other people
and what they're going through.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (31:54):
I love your comment around
it's not just conversations,sometimes maybe it's
a little band aid emojithat means my kid is sick,
and I'm not going to be asresponsive as I normally
would be because Imight be called away.
That kind of levels theplaying field for sure.
EVA SALEM (32:09):
The majority of these issues aren't gender-based.
And even maternity, whichobviously affects women,
it affects bothsexes in many ways.
I don't know thatthere is really
a difference in termsof you approach it
one way with womenversus with men.
I think it's more creating anenvironment where people feel
(32:31):
safe to talk about this stuff.
And I think the reality in myexperience, focus group of one,
is men struggle more withtalking about this stuff
than women, to be honest.
And so I think in some waysare overburdened in that they
don't feel that theycan speak about it.
They feel that they willbe judged more harshly
(32:54):
by speaking about these things.
So I think being awareof that and acknowledging
that as well as younavigate through this stuff
is useful as leaders.
And so they're notgender-specific issues,
they're human--
they're human issues.
They're people who are growingand have full lives issues.
But I do thinkthere's a difference.
Generally speaking,it does feel like men
(33:17):
hold a lot more ofthat stuff and feel
more uncomfortable sharing.
So figuring out howto help on that side.
JANICE BYRNE (33:24):
I think I agree for sure with the notion
of-- because there's masculinityand toxic masculinity.
And we've got workplaces alsowhere sharing is maybe not
encouraged, and that'sfor both men and women.
But then men also have thepersonal kind of constraints
that we have in oursociety of not sharing
and not being a crybaby.
The flip side to I think womentoday, I think have a big--
particularly young women,have a very strong pressure
(33:46):
to be perfect.
To look good, to look slim,to be healthy, to be fit,
to eat the right foods.
We've all seen Barbie.
We know the dialogue.
But we do have avery high pressure
and put a lot of pressureon ourselves because of this
to be the perfect mom.
To be the perfect mom, andto be there for our sisters,
(34:08):
for our brothers, forour parents, whatever.
And so I still feellike caregiving,
there's a heavierburden on women.
And research-wise, it doeshave a hard-- a heavier impact
in terms of like mentalillness or depression.
That ongoing caregivingwith no support
can actually impact womenmore negatively than men.
(34:30):
So I think, though, havingsaid that and being surrounded
by young students, young peoplehere all the time, I do also
think that things arechanging with respect
to young men wanting to be moreinvolved fathers, for example.
So there is changehappening, for sure,
but I still dothink that there's
a very high kindof pressure, a lot
of pressure on women tobe that perfect caregiver.
EVA SALEM (34:49):
And I just want to be clear, I agree.
I think largely, it's stilldisproportionately task-wise,
tends to go towards female.
But I still also believe menhave a hard time-- a harder time
speaking about thesetypes of issues.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (35:06):
Can I ask a question
around what a leader can doif someone isn't disclosing,
but you suspectsomething is going on?
Either you've heardthrough another channel
or you're just noticing they'reoff, for whatever reason.
(35:27):
Like, how do you initiatethe conversation,
not knowing if theother person is going
to be willing to open up or--
like, I'm going toleave it at that.
Because it's a big question.
But I know leaders arestruggling with this.
They're like, I want tohelp, I just, they're
not saying anything.
And I know stuff is going on.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: It's really delicate, right? (35:48):
undefined
And I've been in that situation.
I think some of us have alsobeen in situations where
we know someone'sleaving, and we hear it
from somewhere else, andthis kind of sentiment.
One thing I do, and I think forme, it's about being proactive.
Because I think inthat moment, you're
not going to forceit out of someone.
(36:09):
You have to becareful in doing that.
One of the things I do in everyone-on-one I have is at the end,
I ask like, OK, and howis your mental health?
Give me a one out of 10.
And how are you doing?
Outside of work, how'severything going?
Are you OK?
And I never prod, but I try togive the platform and the forum
for that personto say something.
(36:31):
And I may even offer a coupleof things from my life.
Like, for example, right now,I'm going through-- like,
this is the hectic.
So again, it's Ijust try to create
that environment of openness.
And everybody's different.
You're not always going toget someone saying something.
But like a little exampleis when somebody said,
oh, I just got in an argumentwith my spouse this morning.
And I was like, oh, is itthe who does more thing?
(36:53):
Like that everyparent argues about?
And they were like, yes,that was exactly it.
It's like yeah, that'll happentill the end of time, it seems.
So it's just, again, I try tolead through that empathy piece
and that like examplepiece, and just kind
of finding that common ground.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (37:06):
I love that in giving that space.
I like the scale too,because how often
are we in a situation whereyou're, how is it going?
Oh, it's fine.
And you move on.
I'm like, sure, it is fine.
Maybe it is, butlet's sort of see.
Janice, Eva, any other thoughtson this and creating that space?
JANICE BYRNE (37:28):
We're in Canada in such a melting pot
of different cultures.
I think that is important.
And that also the notionof intersectionality,
and that when you've gotwomen of color in leadership,
[? there's ?] different issues.
I think definitely on thecultural barriers to sharing,
for sure, there could belike within certain cultures,
the notion that if Idivulge this information,
it will be seen as weakness.
(37:48):
And I think that's importantto acknowledge and also
not to push when--
I mean, we've alreadytalked about this,
not to share when the persondoesn't feel comfortable
with that.
So yeah, absolutely,I think they're really
valid points and something Ineed to think more about too.
EVA SALEM (37:59):
The only thing I would
add to it is, becausethis is the biggest
struggle in some ways.
Is when you can see thatsomeone is suffering,
and you want to help.
To say it's delicateis an overstatement.
So I think it comesin the form of doing
the daily work over time.
The building, therelationship over time.
Having the foundationthat when you
(38:20):
ask about someone'swell-being, they
know that you are there becauseyou care about their well-being,
and there's arelationship there.
Otherwise, it gets reallyprickly really quickly.
When I can seesomeone is suffering
and I want to bethere, I hope that I
have put in the workin advance of that
so that they feelthat they can share,
(38:43):
and we can help where we can.
Hopefully, it's not somethingwhere you see it happen,
but you know that if you doask or if you do whatever,
it most likely will landin an off-putting way.
And I think that's more of areflection of the relationship
than the situation.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Well, that idea of-- (39:01):
undefined
not an idea, I thinkthat recommendation
around putting in that time, andI've built that relationship,
I've built that credibility.
I've seen myselfwanting to solve--
so sitting acrossfrom an employee,
I know they're struggling.
I want to help them today.
I want to get a solution and getthem on the right path, whatever
(39:22):
that looks like.
But recognizingthat might not be
happening in conversation oneor conversation five, right?
We might need to do somethingover a longer period of time.
Trust can do prettyamazing things, I think,
once we've built it.
What's the advice thatyou can give leaders who
are sort of navigating that?
Whether they're going throughit, they've been through it,
(39:44):
they're going to go throughit again, and probably
at multiple timesthroughout their career.
It's not a one anddone sort of scenario.
JANICE BYRNE (39:51):
We've talked a lot about what organizations can do
and what leaders maybe can do.
And we often talk anawful lot about what
you can do for yourself.
Which often kindof annoys me a bit,
because it's like Iblame the women thing,
or I blame the carer andwhat you can do for yourself.
But one thing that youcan do for yourself,
which I think isjust so important,
is that you cancare for yourself.
And it's AriannaHuffington who says,
"self-care is not a luxury,and it shouldn't be."
(40:13):
It really shouldn't be.
Try to prioritize yourself.
It is so important.
It is the notion of puttingon your own oxygen mask
before you can tendto those of others.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Sabrina, you're up next. (40:21):
undefined
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: This is
what has spoken to mein the last six months
since I had the opportunity tofilm this series on motherhood.
Which is that there isso much in the zeitgeist
right now around the pressurebeing put on parents.
I think the surgeongeneral is warning
saying that parents are inlike a medical pressure,
like diagnosed pressure, highsituation more so than they've
(40:43):
ever been.
And so what I would sayto leaders, particularly
leaders who may notbe the default parent,
is really, really try toeducate yourself and understand
the degree of what that personis going to when they log off
Zoom, when theyleave the office,
while they're at the office.
Because it's very easyto nod along and decline
(41:05):
a simple request thatsomebody might have.
But to understand whythey're making that request,
what they're going through,the nature of what parenting is
and motherhood, thatit's a 24-hour job.
We're averaging sleepas mothers of young kids
beyond what any medical doctorwould say is sufficient.
And I would justreally say, treat
(41:26):
that as seriously as youdo the technical training
you might offer youremployees, and then you'll
approach it in a way that isnaturally more empathetic.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (41:34):
I love it.
Thank you.
Eva.
EVA SALEM (41:36):
Be kind to yourself, and be kind to others.
And there is a foundation ofunderstanding that we are all
going through things.
Add value professionally andfill their personal buckets
as well.
And so I think it starts byliving as you want to be treated
(41:59):
and doing it en masse andcreating a culture that you
want to be a part of.
[SOFT MUSIC]
SEAN ACKLIN GRANT (42:06):
Thank you for tuning in to Learning in Action.
Learning in Action is producedby Joanna Shepherd, Rachel
Jackson, and me,Sean Acklin Grant.
Editing and audio mixby Carol Eugene Park.
If you liked this episode,make sure to subscribe.
You can also findmore information
by visiting ivyacademy.com,or follow us on social media
(42:30):
@iveyacademy for more content,upcoming events and programs.
We hope you'lljoin us again soon.
undefined
(00:01):
And I've had so many ofmy friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,if I tell my work that this
has happened, they knowI'm trying to have a child,
are they going tohold it against me?
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I'veseen it go both ways.
And now I've seen it start toget better in organizations,
where that isn't the case.
Where it's a supportiveenvironment, and that individual
is given time off todeal with their issues.
ANNOUNCER (00:23):
Welcome to Learning in Action,
your trusted source ofnew research, insights,
and practical advice oncritical issues in business,
presented by the Ivey Academy.
In today's episode, we'rediving into a topic that
impacts nearlyevery professional,
whether directly or indirectly.
(00:43):
Gender and familydynamics in leadership.
Balancing career progressionwith family responsibilities
is challenging.
And it often comeswith unique pressures,
especially as workplaceexpectations and family roles
evolve.
Today, we'll explore howgender roles and caregiving
responsibilitiesshape the leadership
(01:03):
paths of many professionals,impacting everything from career
growth to work-life balance.
To unpack these themes, we'rejoined by an exceptional panel.
Sabrina Kumar Ceccarelli, VicePresident and Assistant General
Counsel at Lightspeed Commerce.
Eva Salem, Senior VicePresident of Marketing and Brand
(01:25):
at Canadian Tire Corporation.
And Janice Byrne,Assistant Professor
in Entrepreneurshiphere at Ivey.
Each of them brings a uniqueperspective and wealth
of experience in balancinghigh-impact careers
with family roles in advocatingfor more inclusive workplaces.
In this episode, ourguests will discuss
how caregiving roles intersectwith career advancement,
(01:49):
the ways organizations canbetter support caregivers,
and the leadershipshifts needed to foster
an inclusive environment.
Here's your host, BrianBenjamin, with today's guests.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (02:01):
Janice, I want to get started
with exploring sort of thebroad intersection of caregiving
and career progression.
And so from yourperspectives, what
sorts of caregivingresponsibilities
impact career growth andleadership opportunities
in today's rapidly evolvingand ever changing workplace?
JANICE BYRNE (02:22):
Absolutely.
We've got so manydifferent interpretations
and understandingsof caregiving.
And so we've got perhapslike new mothers returning
to the workplace.
We've got workingparents maybe who
are living in cities where theydon't have family support, maybe
new cities, or maybethey're expatriates.
We've got freshly divorcees,people figuring out
(02:44):
new living arrangements.
And then there's anawful lot of people
who are involved in elder careor caring for people at home,
maybe with a serious illness.
A quarter of the Canadiansover the age of 45 who provide
care to a family memberor a close friend
with serious illness.
So lots of differenttypes of caregivers.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (03:02):
Yeah.
And thank you for that context.
The care extendsthe full continuum.
We always talk aboutgoing full circle, right?
And many are not just havingsmall children at home,
but also elder care andothers within that portfolio.
So let's go to you next, Eva.
I'm going to giveyou a quick heads up
(03:22):
so you can think about this.
And so new mothersreturning to the workplace.
Eva, can you share withus sort of what the return
to work experience was like,especially with a US lens on it,
if you will?
EVA SALEM (03:35):
Yeah, I was working in the States
during that phase of my life.
I'll start by saying we've madeso much progress between when
I had my kids and whatis currently happening.
It was harsh, I will say.
It was literally likeeight to 10 weeks.
You came back, itwas full throttle.
(03:55):
It was five days a week.
I worked in thecosmetics industry.
So it was largely females.
And it was a lot of veryexhausted women trying
to re-acclimate when theirbodies and their lives
were really justturned upside down.
If I compare that realityto what I'm seeing now,
I am encouraged.
(04:15):
I do feel like we'vemade a lot of progress.
I think it's much moreacceptable professionally
to take the time that you need.
COVID in particular,I would say,
eased that transition evenmore for new moms returning.
Yeah, my experience, itwas a very difficult time.
There really was not muchsupport around it as well,
(04:36):
like nursing rooms andthat kind of stuff.
Even female groupswithin organizations
didn't really existfor the most part.
So you had your peer group,and you kind of relied
on your peer group, butthere was nothing systemic
or structural in anyof the corporations
at the time that was there tosupport women during this really
difficult time.
We've come a long way.
(04:56):
I think that's very encouraging.
But obviously there'sstill work to be done.
And I'd be curious in Sabrina'stake on it with a one-year-old.
You're living atreal-time right now.
And even the paternityside of things,
that stuff did not happenwhen I was having my kids.
So it's an interestingcontrast, I think, probably
to Sabrina's perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (05:18):
And thank you for sharing that, Eva,
and also shining a spotlighton some of the progress
and where it has been made.
And clearly, we'lldig into progress
that has not yetbeen made and where
we need to go andhopefully into the future.
But Sabrina, why don't you--
you've got a pretty fulland active house in addition
to a pretty full andactive career right now.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI (05:40):
Yeah.
And it's alwayssuch a cruel irony
that your careerseems to take off
at the same time you'reexpected to raise
these super young childrenthat need you the most.
So I am coming tothe last month.
Actually, November 2 will be theone month mark of an 18-month
maternity leave.
This was a leave I tookwith my third child.
And it has been anamazing experience.
(06:05):
It's kind ofcompounded by the fact
that I have these twoother children at home.
So in addition to being able tospend the time with the baby as
needed, I've also beenable to really indulge
in those other two children,where I'm not always
able to do that.
The anecdote that I'd giveyou, and it's not a great one,
but my job is very demanding.
(06:26):
And I took off like two weeksbefore my scheduled C-section.
And I did a couple ofthings with my kids.
We were making littlearts and crafts.
And my son, he looked at me.
I literally had donelike two things.
This was the secondthing I'd done.
And he said, mom, you'redoing so much with us now.
And it washeartbreaking, but also
(06:48):
kind of like a reality checkmoment of, my goodness,
my time is going withthese young kids,
and I'm not even seeing it.
I'm not even able to catch up torealize that, hold on, how mired
in my corporate world am I?
So part of thatinforms my decision
to take the 18 months, becauseI felt like it was time
spent with all three.
(07:08):
And I have worked for a bossat one point who said to me,
at some point in my career,what's $10,000 in the span
of a career?
And I would offer that to women.
What is six more--
women or whoeverthe caregiver is.
What is six more monthsin the span of a career?
For me, I work in tech.
It was going to be a chaoticand challenging environment
(07:28):
if I had left only a three-monthleave or a four-month leave.
Things move so fast.
So me coming back at 18 monthsversus 12 months versus eight
months, I feltlike the challenge
was going to be the same.
And so I took the full time.
And we are so lucky inCanada to have that time.
Because I haveworked for companies
with American employees,where women are going back
(07:49):
at six months with C-sectionstitches unhealed still.
And so should you havethe financial means
and be able to structureyour life in that way,
I would offer women thatsame kind of question.
Is, what is six more months inthe span of a career if it's
something you want to do?
And when I was on the socialrecently, one thing I said
was we are oftenfearful of losing
(08:10):
the momentum of ourcareer, but the success
that has so often gotten usto where we are is within us.
It's that skill set.
It's what we've applied.
It's the kind ofinterpersonal skills
that we've developed fromour education and experience.
And those things can be deployedin multiple environments.
So I went back to ajob after my second
(08:31):
that wasn't working for me.
I could sense it wasn't goingto get to where I wanted to be.
And so that's when Imoved to Lightspeed.
And it was the best moveI made for my career.
So I would reallyencourage caregivers
to have that faith inthemselves and be fearless
kind of when you'rereentering the workforce.
Because if you are confidentand you are hardworking,
that those opportunitieswill come your way.
(08:53):
They just may be unexpected,but that can be a great thing.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (08:56):
Oh, I love the word fearless.
Yeah, I think youtouched on something
that I think so many have had.
As a young voice can reallycreate a big sort of aha
moment in terms oftime and attention.
And yeah, I really like yourframing it over a 30-plus year
(09:18):
career, right, isa moment in time.
And it's not to diminish themoment in time and how crucial
that is, but sometimes tryingto toggle that with something
a little bit longer.
I want to shift andtake the conversation
around the role ofthe organization.
I think all three of you hit onsome really important pieces,
(09:38):
which, what can wecontrol as humans,
ourselves as humansworking within the context
of an organizationin many cases?
And how do organizations bettersupport leaders, and especially
senior leaders, those withbig roles and big portfolios,
balancing sort of thecaregiving responsibilities?
(10:02):
And that could bea child caregiving,
it could be parent caregiving.
For many, it could beboth, and getting it
at all sides of thecontinuum, if you will.
Especially at sortof that age where
career is often hitting astride and things are humming.
So we'll talk about whatorganizations can do,
(10:24):
and then I do want totalk about what does it
mean for early careerand new mothers that are
at different stages as well.
So, Eva, I'm going to bring yourvoice into the conversation here
first.
EVA SALEM (10:38):
On the maternity leave side,
I think organizations arefairly progressive at this point
in understanding theneed to retain talent,
to keep female futureleaders at the table.
The cost of losingthat kind of talent
and retraining andwhatever, I think
there's a level ofawareness and action
(11:00):
and structural andsystemic change that has
taken place, which is great.
On the other parts ofthings, like caring
for elderly parentsand that side of stuff,
I think it's stillearly days corporately.
There really is not a lotof acknowledgment outside
of specific teams andmanager-employee relationships,
(11:21):
at the larger, more macrolevel, enterprise-wide,
when it comes to care, otherthan I would say, maternity
leave.
So I think that's an areathat definitely still needs
a lot of attention.
I think it tends to alsoreally affect senior leaders,
because you tend to bea little more further
along in yourcareer, your parents
(11:43):
are a little bitolder, et cetera.
So it's an interestingconundrum where it's actually
the people who should besetting the policies who are
being affected the most by it.
So I think thoseare conversations
that are beginning to happen.
I know here at CanadianTire, for instance,
you go from challengeto challenge,
whether it's maternity orkids' school needs or anxiety
(12:06):
or special learningneeds to elderly parents.
Like, there is always thingsoutside of your work life
that is happening.
And corporations who areable to adjust and support
their talent throughthat are the ones
that ultimately willthrive, both financially
and just in terms of havingthe best talent at the table.
(12:26):
So currently, Iwould say a lot of it
is one-off conversationsand specific to teams
and specific tomanager-employee relationships,
and that shouldn't be the case.
There should be more process.
Even sick leaves, I have to say.
Unless you yourselfare sick, there's
very little leave support,systemic ingrained
(12:46):
leave support for when you area caregiver for someone who
is sick.
And I think those areall areas that are still
areas that need to be addressedfrom a systemic corporate
perspective.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (12:57):
You hit on something really important,
which is the broaderorganizational role.
And yes, there needsto be the one to one
and personal conversations,but ideally, that's
happening within thecontext of something broader
and maybe more well understood.
Janice, I'd love some of yourperspectives on this question.
JANICE BYRNE (13:17):
To build on what both Eva and Sabrina said,
but Eva, when we spokeabout this, the change that
needs to takeplace, I guess there
is structural or systemicthings that can be done.
We also need the culture ofthe organization to match that.
So that these thingsmight be in place,
but we have to see that there'sa supportive culture of when
we avail of these supports.
(13:38):
And I also think the onething that's really important
is just this wholenotion of disclosure,
because we're still operatingthe ideal worker, right?
And sometimes therecan be a stigma,
there can be like a fear of ifI disclose, because whatever
the challenge is thatI'm dealing with,
whether it's jugglingtrying to get
my kids the timingwith the childcare
(13:59):
or whether it's looking aftera sick child or a sick relative
at home, or a sick parent,or an elderly parent,
or a close friend.
When we have these thingsgoing on in our lives,
we're not always--we don't always
feel like we're in a situationwhere we can disclose
and actually talk to, eithertalk to our manager about it,
or if we're in asenior leadership role,
to even talk to oursubordinates about it.
(14:20):
And so we want to think about asituation where we can actually
create organizationswhere there--
we talk aboutpsychological safety,
but it's importantfor so many reasons.
But that is one reason.
So that when if I divulgethis information, if I talk
about the physical logisticchallenges that I'm facing
or even the psychologicalchallenges that I'm face--
If I've got a parent withdementia, and I'm thinking,
how do I deal with?
I'm so worried about them.
(14:41):
I cannot be in my work rightnow because I'm thinking about
what's going to happen at home.
These are allthings that we need
to be able to share atwork, because all of us,
we're going to go throughdifferent strains of this
at some stage.
So it's really creatinga culture and managers
to being aware ofthis so that they
can have these conversations,and they feel like they can
share without feeling thatthey're going to be stigmatized
or rejection, orthat there's going
(15:02):
to be some fearof repercussions,
basically, when they do share.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I've just been nodding along. (15:05):
undefined
This has beenresonating so much.
As a people leaderin the company,
one of the thingsI also think is
that yes, employees needto be encouraged to share,
but also we needto start looking
at training our leaders withhow to respond to those things.
Because it's not always thecase that-- and the example,
we will talk aboutthis later, is
like in the instance, forinstance, of a miscarriage.
(15:26):
If a male leader hasto deal with that,
he needs to know thedelicate nature of how
to go about doing that, as wellas the physical kind of aspects
of it.
So I think-- and myself forlike an elder caregiver,
I would need to be trainedto understand how do I most
appropriately respond to that.
So I feel like thatpiece is really missing.
We're training people onsome gender and some race
(15:46):
and some kind of socialnorms and differences,
but we're missingthis part of it.
JANICE BYRNE (15:52):
100% agree.
I do think it is a gap.
And then in general, thecultural thing is so true.
And the foundation of, atthe end of the day, trust.
And I think trust is easier tobuild sort of one-on-one, person
to person, but it needs to bea broader work culture of trust
(16:13):
so that these things can starthappening at a more standardized
or systemic level as well.
So yeah, that's thebalancing act for sure.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (16:21):
When you-- you hit on some points that were
so important around--
and I look at this, a maleleader within an organization.
And a big part of why I was soexcited for this conversation
is I learned at everystep of the way.
But you hit on something, whichis, some of these conversations
(16:41):
are going to be taking placewith people that will never
understand at the samelevel what someone
has gone throughphysically, emotionally.
But at the same time, they canprovide an appropriate space
to allow for conversationand ideally get to a point
where we figure out someplans for a path forward.
(17:02):
So the idea of psychologicalsafety so that someone
is sharing.
Because we know ifsomeone has a child,
you know that happened, right?
Usually it's very public,and we know that happened,
we know the time frame.
But we've started to talk aboutsome things that unless someone
talks about it, it's actuallyimpossible to know what
(17:24):
someone's going on, andthe weight that they're
carrying into the workplaceand the potential impact
that it's just having ontheir overall well-being.
We talked about traininga little bit, but what can
organizations do to build aculture of psychological safety
so people arecomfortable sharing?
Even if they don't haveit all figured out,
(17:46):
but it's I'mcarrying this weight,
and I want to have thisconversation with someone I
trust without fearof repercussion.
Because I like my job,I like my organization,
I want to be productive,but I'm just--
I'm dealing with stuff.
Like, what can organizations do?
And then, I'd love to talk aboutwhat can individual leaders do
within the system as wellto create that space?
(18:08):
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: One thing
that's worked for meis being transparent
about my struggles and my lifeand trying to lead by example.
And I feel like-- so Ihad a stillbirth, which
was a full-term loss.
And I shared thatwithin the company.
I wrote an article about it.
I've talked about it now on TV.
It's something thateveryone knew about.
(18:30):
So when I had an employeeat an organization
go through somethingsimilar, my hope
is she felt comfortablecoming to me
because she knew that I had kindof talked about this broadly.
But people fear repercussions.
And I've had so many ofmy friends come to me
and say on a legal basis,if I tell my work that this
has happened, they knowI'm trying to have a child,
are they going tohold it against me?
(18:52):
Can they let me go?
And unfortunately, I'veseen it go both ways.
I've seen it wherepeople have been let go,
and then they do think, didthat inform the decision?
And now I've seen it start toget better in organizations,
where, as you said, there'sa better culture where
that isn't the case.
Where there's a supportiveenvironment, and that individual
is given time off todeal with their issues.
EVA SALEM (19:11):
I couldn't agree more.
I think people learn by example.
I think when yousee senior leaders
being vulnerable andshowing their whole self,
it opens up the opportunityfor others to do that.
We've set up an ERGat Canadian Tire that
is a mental health matters ERG.
I'm the senior sponsor for it.
(19:31):
I bring in senior leadersto talk about the issues
that they're strugglingwith in front
of whoever wants to attend.
And it just helpsdestigmatize the fact
that people are dealing withstruggles at all levels.
And that A, it createsmore empathy in general.
Because as you'reengaging with others,
(19:52):
you're seeing apart of their lives,
you're not seeing everythingthat they're dealing with.
And then in addition to that, itmakes you just conduct yourself
within your teamsin a way that just
has a much broader scope anda much broader understanding
of what's going on.
But I do believe thesethings start at the top.
And I think seeingsenior leaders
lean into theseuncomfortable conversations
(20:16):
for most takes a lot of courage,and that courage is contagious.
And I think it's kind of-- justit's small things that you can
do, but they do sendbig cultural shifts
within the organization.
JANICE BYRNE (20:30):
I think also, Brian,
even just in terms ofwhat concrete things
that organizations cando or practical things
on top of thisculture and the care,
I think there's also practicalthings that we can do easily.
For example, iseven having supports
there in terms ofinformation supports.
So for caregiving, tohave an information
where people can go tofind out new things,
(20:52):
where we can share resourcesor knowledge resources.
Like for example,one thing we've
done here at Ivey actually,because we were recruiting
more and more women faculty.
And one thing we've done hereis you set up in a new city,
you need to find out how doI get kids and summer camp?
And when do I haveto sign them up for?
But that's the really goodone, but I missed the deadline.
It's for January.
Oh, no, what am I going to do?
(21:12):
And now I'm left withall the bad camps,
and my kids don'twant to do them.
But there was all thisinformation about babysitters,
about camps, about allthese different things
that I set up here.
I found it out, butit was all in my head.
And so just sharedinformation portals,
where big organizationscan put that in a city,
could put that informationthere for employees or workers
to be able to avail of it.
I think there'spractical things,
(21:33):
like helpingemployees find out how
to navigate kind of whichhuman resources, like what
are there-- whenpeople return to work.
And obviously, flexiblework arrangements.
There's no doubt about it.
If you need to-- if you needto pick up a child from school,
or if you need to bringyour mom to the doctors,
flexible work arrangements.
Even if it's starting30 minutes later
or being able to takeyour afternoon off.
And feeling that youcan ask for that,
(21:55):
or that that can be given easilywithout any repercussions,
that's important.
[SOFT MUSIC]
BRIAN BENJAMIN (22:08):
Navigating sort of disclosure and sharing,
and we talks aboutfeeding office politics.
And so some of this canbe incredibly personal.
What if you don't wantit to go more broadly?
How do you sort ofstrike that balance
between what do you share, whodo you share, when do you share?
(22:29):
I appreciate there's noperfect answer to this,
but I'd love your perspectives.
Because I worry thatsome may start to feel
overwhelmed and not sharebecause they're not sure where
it will-- where it will go.
EVA SALEM (22:42):
It depends on the individual.
I think you need to dowhat's right for you.
You need to feelsafe, and you need
to feel that you're going toget the support that you're
looking for.
So not everyone needs tohave everyone know everything
about their life, but everyoneis entitled to feel supported.
So I would-- if you aremore private about it
and want to beprivate or don't feel
(23:03):
like you have themanager that you
feel like you can talk to aboutthis, HR, that is their role.
You should definitely bereaching out to your HR people
and figuring outwhat the process is
and how the organizationcan support.
And if you do have arelationship with your boss
where you feel thatyou can trust them,
or people on your team where youfeel that you can trust them,
(23:24):
and you feel speaking andsharing would help you
I hope that you do that.
But it really is sucha personal thing.
And having that flexibilityis really important
to decide whatworks best for you.
And the one thing Iwould encourage people
is to take a moment.
These are big things.
They evolve over time.
They change.
Your needs change.
(23:45):
The crisis that you're dealingwith changes and evolves.
And just giving yourself thepatience and the leniency
and the self-compassion toknow that it's not a one
and done conversationor a moment in time.
And you miss that moment,and now it's inappropriate.
There's just a lot ofself-inflicted pressure
(24:05):
that we put on top of alreadya very pressured situation
that hopefully we can beginto unravel a little bit.
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: Briefly,
what I do with employees whocome to me with such challenges
is I ask them what they wantme to do with that information.
Do you-- for example, if it'sa fertility or something like,
(24:28):
what do you want me?
Do you want me to share thiswith the head of our legal team?
How do you want meto characterize it?
Do you want me tosay you're just--
you're going through a toughtime with some physical issues?
I can frame it howeveryou want me to.
And whether it's by thecompany code or not,
that's how I amgoing to operate.
I'm not going to share somebodyelse's very personal information
(24:48):
except in the waythey want me to.
And I'm also going to bethat person to them who will
hold that in trust for them.
Obviously, there's situationswhere that may be different,
but thus far and whatI've encountered,
I'm able to navigate it ina way that you can share
with me however muchyou feel, and then
you tell me how you want meto pass that information on.
(25:09):
And thus far, that's worked.
And I could certainlysee situations where
it won't, but so far so good.
JANICE BYRNE (25:14):
I think it's also important to think about,
as a manager or as a leader,when people come to you,
so this kind of theopen communication
is extremelyimportant obviously,
as Sabrina talked about.
But I also thinkthat we should always
think about our ownlived experience
and how that can impactand how we can sometimes
make assumptions, actually.
And so when I think back whenme-- when I had my-- when I
(25:35):
was dying to get back to work.
I really wanted toget back to work,
because it wasgoing to be a break.
I could actuallybe in the office
and just have somepeace and quiet.
And if I was going to workon something for an hour,
I could work onsomething for an hour.
It was lovely.
So I was dying to get back.
It's to never make assumptionseither about based perhaps
on your own lived experience.
(25:55):
And also with respect to sharingor not sharing and disclosure,
there is also thisnotion again which
Eva mentioned, iseverybody's different,
and it should be up to them.
And for some people, work canactually be a refuge, right?
And work canactually be a way to,
you've got these differentresponsibilities that--
and sometimes, it can beactually a relief to be at work.
(26:17):
And so that everybodyis different.
So not to make anyassumptions based
on what your knowledgeis of working mothers
or what based on yourexperiences of having
a sick parent ora sick relative.
So that is anotherreason, I guess,
why this open communicationis so important.
And that you try to park yourown kind of previous assumptions
or things that you think are--
because not everybodywants the type of help
you think you might want,and to be mindful of that.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (26:39):
I know I've been guilty of that.
You're sort ofplaying it through,
and I want toconnect with someone.
It's like, oh, I've lost aparent, you've lost a parent,
and we sort of talk about that.
And you immediatelyrecognize like, Oh my gosh,
I can't profess that ourexperiences are alike
in any way.
And people areall sort of coming
(26:59):
from different starting points.
So being able to putthat to the side.
I think it's helpful tohave it in your mind,
because maybe it frames it,but finding the right place
in terms of when it factors in.
Sabrina, your comments aroundwhat do you want me to do,
if anything, withthis information
keeps someone in control, right?
(27:21):
Now I'm in control of theconversation and the narrative.
And maybe I say nothing now.
And maybe in a fewweeks, that changes,
because things evolve andcontinue to look a little bit--
a little bit differently.
So we've talked aboutdisclosure and how we do it.
(27:41):
And I think it's very clear thatthere is no one size fits all.
There's clearly a rolethat the organization can
play, especially aroundcreating support for managers
and what their role couldlook like in leaders
and that cultureof safety, and then
what individuals can doon a case by case basis.
So let's talk about thatculture of reciprocal care.
(28:04):
Where caregivers feelcomfortable seeking
help but also offeringsupport as well.
So we've talked about supportin terms of a listening ear,
what else could support looklike when information is shared
and someone is talkingabout a certain situation?
Or in some cases,we hear situations
(28:27):
where they're dealing with,it's not one piece in isolation,
it's actually I'm dealingwith this and this and this.
And on their own,I can handle it.
But actually, it'sthe combination that's
creating a real challenge.
So what is that-- what is thesort of role of reciprocity
sort of play in this in termsof what organizations can do
and what individualleaders can do?
(28:48):
So I'm going to bring you,Janice, into the conversation
first on this one.
JANICE BYRNE (28:52):
The creation of mutual support among colleagues
is just so important, right?
Both as the supportand the moral support,
but also theinformational aspect.
So really, we wanta situation where
asking for help orsupports is normalized.
So that's what-- we want toget to a stage where we can.
Kind of when we do need--
(29:13):
we do need help with something,that it's not seen as weakness,
or that it's notseen as something
that has negativerepercussions on that,
because it's a give and take.
And that I can help out on this.
And then in thefuture, if there's
going to be leeway given,then I can return the favor.
So that's reallyimportant, I think.
Is really that mutualsupport and among colleagues.
And it can be simplethings, I feel like.
(29:34):
For example, if we go back tothe case of working mothers
or whatever, evenjust organizing
work lunches orthings-- where people
can share experiences,trade kind of like tips,
and that that is organized.
Or that there'stimes in meetings
that are actually parked forpersonal conversations, right?
So that this kind of opencommunication and this care
can be cultivated, Isuppose, in small ways.
(29:55):
And again, I'm thinkingof a lunchtime thing
just because I remember Iused to get stressed out
over the thought that somethingwould be on after work,
and I wouldn't beable to go, right?
BRIAN BENJAMIN (30:02):
So true.
Something I want to bringinto the conversation,
we have gender inthe title here.
What are you noticing interms of employees and sort
of what they'redealing with and what
they're coming forward with?
Is there-- I'm trying tofigure out how to phrase this--
female comingforward and saying,
(30:23):
this is kind of whatI'm dealing with.
Male coming forward and saying,this is what I'm dealing with.
Are you seeing any differences?
And what role canorganizations do
to maybe expand the notionaround family and caregiving
and the role that differentcaregivers, regardless
(30:43):
of gender, are playing.
And challenges thatcaregivers have
when we think about itacross the full continuum.
Especially as itrelates to elder care
or beyond thematernity piece that
may have very specificneeds that are occupying
a lot of time for some parents.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I can speak a little bit (31:04):
undefined
to the childcare piece.
One thing is weuse Slack at work,
which is like an instantmessaging program.
And one thing that I hadnoticed, and I don't think I
started doing it, I thinkI saw it from someone else.
Is that when someonehad a sick kid at home,
there'd be a little emoji andsay like, sick kid at home.
So that's just a verysmall representation,
but it creates this kindof immediate comfort.
(31:27):
And I started using it, andpeople on my team use it.
That like we all understandwhat that's like.
And we're kind of jugglingbeyond the normal juggle
of a work day.
So again, it's that piece oflike, I think you can say tone
from the top or beingopen about the struggles
that you're undergoing,and also just
(31:49):
having that kind ofunderstanding of other people
and what they're going through.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (31:54):
I love your comment around
it's not just conversations,sometimes maybe it's
a little band aid emojithat means my kid is sick,
and I'm not going to be asresponsive as I normally
would be because Imight be called away.
That kind of levels theplaying field for sure.
EVA SALEM (32:09):
The majority of these issues aren't gender-based.
And even maternity, whichobviously affects women,
it affects bothsexes in many ways.
I don't know thatthere is really
a difference in termsof you approach it
one way with womenversus with men.
I think it's more creating anenvironment where people feel
(32:31):
safe to talk about this stuff.
And I think the reality in myexperience, focus group of one,
is men struggle more withtalking about this stuff
than women, to be honest.
And so I think in some waysare overburdened in that they
don't feel that theycan speak about it.
They feel that they willbe judged more harshly
(32:54):
by speaking about these things.
So I think being awareof that and acknowledging
that as well as younavigate through this stuff
is useful as leaders.
And so they're notgender-specific issues,
they're human--
they're human issues.
They're people who are growingand have full lives issues.
But I do thinkthere's a difference.
Generally speaking,it does feel like men
(33:17):
hold a lot more ofthat stuff and feel
more uncomfortable sharing.
So figuring out howto help on that side.
JANICE BYRNE (33:24):
I think I agree for sure with the notion
of-- because there's masculinityand toxic masculinity.
And we've got workplaces alsowhere sharing is maybe not
encouraged, and that'sfor both men and women.
But then men also have thepersonal kind of constraints
that we have in oursociety of not sharing
and not being a crybaby.
The flip side to I think womentoday, I think have a big--
particularly young women,have a very strong pressure
(33:46):
to be perfect.
To look good, to look slim,to be healthy, to be fit,
to eat the right foods.
We've all seen Barbie.
We know the dialogue.
But we do have avery high pressure
and put a lot of pressureon ourselves because of this
to be the perfect mom.
To be the perfect mom, andto be there for our sisters,
(34:08):
for our brothers, forour parents, whatever.
And so I still feellike caregiving,
there's a heavierburden on women.
And research-wise, it doeshave a hard-- a heavier impact
in terms of like mentalillness or depression.
That ongoing caregivingwith no support
can actually impact womenmore negatively than men.
(34:30):
So I think, though, havingsaid that and being surrounded
by young students, young peoplehere all the time, I do also
think that things arechanging with respect
to young men wanting to be moreinvolved fathers, for example.
So there is changehappening, for sure,
but I still dothink that there's
a very high kindof pressure, a lot
of pressure on women tobe that perfect caregiver.
EVA SALEM (34:49):
And I just want to be clear, I agree.
I think largely, it's stilldisproportionately task-wise,
tends to go towards female.
But I still also believe menhave a hard time-- a harder time
speaking about thesetypes of issues.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (35:06):
Can I ask a question
around what a leader can doif someone isn't disclosing,
but you suspectsomething is going on?
Either you've heardthrough another channel
or you're just noticing they'reoff, for whatever reason.
(35:27):
Like, how do you initiatethe conversation,
not knowing if theother person is going
to be willing to open up or--
like, I'm going toleave it at that.
Because it's a big question.
But I know leaders arestruggling with this.
They're like, I want tohelp, I just, they're
not saying anything.
And I know stuff is going on.
SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: It's really delicate, right? (35:48):
undefined
And I've been in that situation.
I think some of us have alsobeen in situations where
we know someone'sleaving, and we hear it
from somewhere else, andthis kind of sentiment.
One thing I do, and I think forme, it's about being proactive.
Because I think inthat moment, you're
not going to forceit out of someone.
(36:09):
You have to becareful in doing that.
One of the things I do in everyone-on-one I have is at the end,
I ask like, OK, and howis your mental health?
Give me a one out of 10.
And how are you doing?
Outside of work, how'severything going?
Are you OK?
And I never prod, but I try togive the platform and the forum
for that personto say something.
(36:31):
And I may even offer a coupleof things from my life.
Like, for example, right now,I'm going through-- like,
this is the hectic.
So again, it's Ijust try to create
that environment of openness.
And everybody's different.
You're not always going toget someone saying something.
But like a little exampleis when somebody said,
oh, I just got in an argumentwith my spouse this morning.
And I was like, oh, is itthe who does more thing?
(36:53):
Like that everyparent argues about?
And they were like, yes,that was exactly it.
It's like yeah, that'll happentill the end of time, it seems.
So it's just, again, I try tolead through that empathy piece
and that like examplepiece, and just kind
of finding that common ground.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (37:06):
I love that in giving that space.
I like the scale too,because how often
are we in a situation whereyou're, how is it going?
Oh, it's fine.
And you move on.
I'm like, sure, it is fine.
Maybe it is, butlet's sort of see.
Janice, Eva, any other thoughtson this and creating that space?
JANICE BYRNE (37:28):
We're in Canada in such a melting pot
of different cultures.
I think that is important.
And that also the notionof intersectionality,
and that when you've gotwomen of color in leadership,
[? there's ?] different issues.
I think definitely on thecultural barriers to sharing,
for sure, there could belike within certain cultures,
the notion that if Idivulge this information,
it will be seen as weakness.
(37:48):
And I think that's importantto acknowledge and also
not to push when--
I mean, we've alreadytalked about this,
not to share when the persondoesn't feel comfortable
with that.
So yeah, absolutely,I think they're really
valid points and something Ineed to think more about too.
EVA SALEM (37:59):
The only thing I would
add to it is, becausethis is the biggest
struggle in some ways.
Is when you can see thatsomeone is suffering,
and you want to help.
To say it's delicateis an overstatement.
So I think it comesin the form of doing
the daily work over time.
The building, therelationship over time.
Having the foundationthat when you
(38:20):
ask about someone'swell-being, they
know that you are there becauseyou care about their well-being,
and there's arelationship there.
Otherwise, it gets reallyprickly really quickly.
When I can seesomeone is suffering
and I want to bethere, I hope that I
have put in the workin advance of that
so that they feelthat they can share,
(38:43):
and we can help where we can.
Hopefully, it's not somethingwhere you see it happen,
but you know that if you doask or if you do whatever,
it most likely will landin an off-putting way.
And I think that's more of areflection of the relationship
than the situation.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Well, that idea of-- (39:01):
undefined
not an idea, I thinkthat recommendation
around putting in that time, andI've built that relationship,
I've built that credibility.
I've seen myselfwanting to solve--
so sitting acrossfrom an employee,
I know they're struggling.
I want to help them today.
I want to get a solution and getthem on the right path, whatever
(39:22):
that looks like.
But recognizingthat might not be
happening in conversation oneor conversation five, right?
We might need to do somethingover a longer period of time.
Trust can do prettyamazing things, I think,
once we've built it.
What's the advice thatyou can give leaders who
are sort of navigating that?
Whether they're going throughit, they've been through it,
(39:44):
they're going to go throughit again, and probably
at multiple timesthroughout their career.
It's not a one anddone sort of scenario.
JANICE BYRNE (39:51):
We've talked a lot about what organizations can do
and what leaders maybe can do.
And we often talk anawful lot about what
you can do for yourself.
Which often kindof annoys me a bit,
because it's like Iblame the women thing,
or I blame the carer andwhat you can do for yourself.
But one thing that youcan do for yourself,
which I think isjust so important,
is that you cancare for yourself.
And it's AriannaHuffington who says,
"self-care is not a luxury,and it shouldn't be."
(40:13):
It really shouldn't be.
Try to prioritize yourself.
It is so important.
It is the notion of puttingon your own oxygen mask
before you can tendto those of others.
BRIAN BENJAMIN: Sabrina, you're up next. (40:21):
undefined
SABRINA KUMARCECCARELLI: This is
what has spoken to mein the last six months
since I had the opportunity tofilm this series on motherhood.
Which is that there isso much in the zeitgeist
right now around the pressurebeing put on parents.
I think the surgeongeneral is warning
saying that parents are inlike a medical pressure,
like diagnosed pressure, highsituation more so than they've
(40:43):
ever been.
And so what I would sayto leaders, particularly
leaders who may notbe the default parent,
is really, really try toeducate yourself and understand
the degree of what that personis going to when they log off
Zoom, when theyleave the office,
while they're at the office.
Because it's very easyto nod along and decline
(41:05):
a simple request thatsomebody might have.
But to understand whythey're making that request,
what they're going through,the nature of what parenting is
and motherhood, thatit's a 24-hour job.
We're averaging sleepas mothers of young kids
beyond what any medical doctorwould say is sufficient.
And I would justreally say, treat
(41:26):
that as seriously as youdo the technical training
you might offer youremployees, and then you'll
approach it in a way that isnaturally more empathetic.
BRIAN BENJAMIN (41:34):
I love it.
Thank you.
Eva.
EVA SALEM (41:36):
Be kind to yourself, and be kind to others.
And there is a foundation ofunderstanding that we are all
going through things.
Add value professionally andfill their personal buckets
as well.
And so I think it starts byliving as you want to be treated
(41:59):
and doing it en masse andcreating a culture that you
want to be a part of.
[SOFT MUSIC]
SEAN ACKLIN GRANT (42:06):
Thank you for tuning in to Learning in Action.
Learning in Action is producedby Joanna Shepherd, Rachel
Jackson, and me,Sean Acklin Grant.
Editing and audio mixby Carol Eugene Park.
If you liked this episode,make sure to subscribe.
You can also findmore information
by visiting ivyacademy.com,or follow us on social media
(42:30):
@iveyacademy for more content,upcoming events and programs.
We hope you'lljoin us again soon.
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