February 5, 2025 • 39 mins
Kai Van Leuven shares his journey after leaving Mormonism, highlighting two moments of rejecting God: during a sermon on Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones and when a pastor’s story about hiding faults struck him. Over time, through reading the Bible with his son and attending church, Kai softened, experiencing God’s grace despite his resistance. The narrator reflects on their own spiritual resistance, eventually surrendering to Christ after a pivotal church service. This decision marked the start of healing. The podcast offers hope to those leaving Mormonism, focusing on a personal relationship with Jesus over religious systems.
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Contact us:
Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Have you ever felt like you've rejected God after leaving Mormonism.
I took every opportunity to reject God and leave my
religious past and belief behind. In this episode, we are
going to talk about those experiences and God's grace.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I am Kai van Leevin. I spent over thirty years
in the Mormon Church, and this is what I did
after leaving.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And I'm Diabeel's I'm a pastor at Venture Church in
the state of Washington, and I'm your friend and as always,
along for the ride.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
All right, well, let's talk about this first. I want
to say this has become really fun. I talk about
how fun Jesus for Mormons has been. Last night, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
last night, I'm standing on a beach. It's eight o'clock
at night, the sun is down at seventy degrees. I'm
(01:04):
talking to a Jesus for Mormon's fan who flew into
my home island at a vacation and said, Hey, my
family's here, let's hang out. So we have, yeah, him
and his wife, their two kids, just talking about what
it's like to be Mormon, to be ex Mormon and Christian.
(01:27):
And it was a really fun experience. We prayed together
at the end, and we both went on our merry way,
and yeah, it was a really cool experience. I also
appreciate all the people who have emailed me and text
me and reached out to me through different messengers and
(01:48):
just given encouragement for this. I think that's been a
really fun thing for me. This I love taking risk DIY.
You may or may not have figured that out about me.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yes, I'm aware this has been terrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
This is a really big project that's like, I'm really
putting myself out there, and so I appreciate every time
people just send a word of encouragement. I would rather
take big risks in other ways, putting my whole story
out there, and especially a story that is very hard
(02:26):
for me to tell. I do appreciate people telling me
that it's had an impact on them things like that.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think it's starting. Yeah, it's starting to get fun
for me. So today I wanted to talk about this
resistance that I had towards towards God, and I wanted
to talk about it in two very specific instances in
my faith journey. And I did not want it to
(02:56):
be a faith journey if you're tracking along with this story.
I did not really want it to be a faith journey.
I wanted it to be my wife and kids do
their own thing. I do my own thing. Been there,
done that on religion, Okay, I want to Well, but.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You didn't want that until after your Mormon faith crisis.
So that wasn't originally what you wanted. You wanted your
whole family to be a part of the Mormon church.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, sealed in the temple for return all that. Yes, Yeah,
then we had my crisis of faith where I said
I want nothing to do with religion, right, Die, that's good,
catch us up to speed, right, So I but I
had also said I kind of left the church behind.
(03:46):
I wasn't going back and forth between that old life
of being Mormon.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I was just kind of a blank slate for belief,
which is also interesting and I think really set the
table for me when I burned all of my relics
of Mormonism. That kind of set that set the table
I think for something new. So I I'll say this,
(04:13):
I was a husband that didn't want to make waves.
I didn't want to sit home. I wanted to make
sure my kids kind of got where they needed to go.
I didn't want to put put that whole burden on
my wife for church. So I ended up intermittently going
to church and going and watching the best pastor in
(04:37):
Washington State. Her name's Diabeels. I ended up going and
watching her and her husband at at Venture Church. But
my attitude of going there was not for anything other
than being with my family. Right, There wasn't a real
religious component to it. I thought that people at church
(04:58):
were nice, but you know, been there, done that.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I didn't need. I didn't need that expence.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I mean, I'll take I'll take that starting with these
people are nice. That's a good start. I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And there are people that impacted me along the way
where I was like, oh, they're pretty cool, Like, you know,
I don't believe the way they do, but they're cool.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah. And so.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
That started to change. With a few sermons that I
listened to, and at the same time, me and my
son are also reading through the whole Bible.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I wanted him.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
He had just been baptized, and I'm like, listen, if
you're part of this Christian thing, I actually want you
to know and understand your beliefs. I don't believe the
same way you do. But I want you to know
your beliefs.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So I'm reading that to him.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Did you say I don't believe the same way you do? No,
I didn't say that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Okay, I didn't. And I'm a very straightforward person. I
don't believe I ever said it. But as I'm reading,
I'm just like, oh, my gosh, okay, you know. And
in the beginning, and then my heart started to soften.
As we kind of started to go through, right, I'm like, oh, oh,
that's interesting, and like by the time we hit the
New Testament, I was like, I don't know. Maybe I
(06:18):
guess I'm skipping a little forward in the story here.
But we read the full Bible. We read the full
fourteen hundred pages of the Bible cover to cover me
and my son, and that was an interesting experience. But
in the beginning I was like angrily reading it, and
as each page turned I probably probably started to soften.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Talk about these two times where I rejected God that's
maybe where we're going to pick up in this story,
and where I said, in spite of everything around me,
I am going to turn away from this. The first
one is when your husband was preaching this message on
(07:03):
the Valley of dry bones. Now, as as a Mormon,
I would think I.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Was loosely affiliated with this story.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I've heard it way more times in Christianity than I've
ever heard it in the Mormon Church. Maybe maybe it's
your you and your husband's thing. I don't know, Maybe
that's a maybe that's a thing of your church.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I don't remember him teaching on this, but I've taught
on it before. So I'm curious where you're going to
take this story.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, So I have an image that will bring you
back to it. Okay, to him teaching it, he brought
out a recliner. He had a recliner.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Remember the recliner, but I don't remember it being attached
to this section.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well, there you go. Let's let's talk about it. So
he is talking about this valley of dry bones, and
I want to give some context, just I actually think
for our Mormon an audience or past Mormon or whatever.
Ezekiel the prophet is like looking at the heat.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's un to me.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
It's unclear if it's a vision or if it's like
an actual valley of dry bones.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
But okay, we'll go either way.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Because it says that the hand of the Lord brought
me up. So this is from Ezekiel thirty seven, and
we're just gonna start in one. And it says the
hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me
out in the spirit of the Lord and set me
down in the midst of a valley. So imagine Ezekiel,
a prophet. He's looking out into this valley. Okay, we've
(08:42):
all seen that, like if you're standing on a on
a cliff and you're looking out into a valley. Then
he caused me. Then he caused me to pass by
them all around. So he's looking at there's a valley
of dry bones, right, and the Lord Lord says to Ezekiel,
(09:04):
son of Man, can these bones live? So I answered, oh, Lord, God,
you know. And then Ezekiel said, or God said, prophesy
to these bones and say to them, oh, bones, hear
the words of the Lord. So as he does this,
these bones start to come alive. As Ezekiel, this prophet
(09:30):
prophesies out, these bones start to come alive. So dead
people bones then they start to come alive. Okay, I'm
with you, you're with me. Die, And I think It's
always interesting when you hear stories like this and you
(09:51):
start to relate them to yourself.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Right, you start to then.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Zoom back to you sitting in a chair going through
a pretty nasty faith crisis, knowing that you're alive, but
feeling pretty dead inside. Right, Maybe that's like speaking to
some people out there but knowing that you're walking around
(10:18):
or moving, but inside you feel this huge hole that
really is not being being filled.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And I remember.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Listening to this message and knowing that I'm not really
well and knowing that I'm just there and present and
feeling feeling actually really moved by this message of like this,
these things that are dead changing their form and becoming alive.
(10:56):
And I'm sitting there and I'm just thinking about this.
And the great thing about about you know, Brandon or
or other great creatures is that there's this like call
to action that kind of pulls you into something.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Right. They call it an alter call.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay, I wasn't familiar with that term free Mormon.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I don't really, I didn't. Never I'd heard it, but
I didn't know what it meant. And it just means
like moving to some form of action.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, it's a response.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, it's a yeah, it's a response, not just like
sit there and then I don'll maybe take a note
or forget about it or whatever. Right if we're talking
about like, you know, sitting in a meeting. Right, But
it's like a movement of like doing something. And so
he's like, hey, if that's you, if you're that person
that's just doesn't like needs to feel live or wants
(11:55):
to feel live in this way, like now's the time.
And I'm like and like people are like engaged with
this and responding to this, and I'm looking up there
and I'm like no, like no, like I've already been
(12:16):
there and I don't want to go back there. And
so there's this huge resistance of like, hey, I've been
in religious systems, like no, I don't want to be there.
But I watched people be changed and moved by this
and go up and get prayed for and all these things.
And I'm thinking to myself, no, no, I'm I you know,
this logical side of my brain is saying is saying, no, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Did you cross your arms across your chest too?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And you know when I get when people are saying things,
I get really uncomfortable, and I kind of like shift
in my chair and like my legs kind of go
off to the side, like like I'm watching, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Are your tel want that you're very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, Like I'm watching somebody like get open heart surgery,
and I'm just like, oh, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So I get I get really really uncomfortable. But I
remember thinking, oh wow, that's a I just turned away
from this, you know. And I don't conscious it. I
actively I feel something pulling me in one direction, and
(13:26):
I'm actively saying no.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Okay, the end of that story, for those of you
who want to read through it, in Ezekiel thirty seven
goes Ezekiel thirty seven one through fourteen, and this whole
valley becomes a big army of people that have become
revived and.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Alive because they have the ruach the breath of God
in them.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah. Yeah, because they have the breath of God. Huh.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I wonder, I wonder how that works into the story. Okay,
the second time, Die, We're going to put you on
blast for the second time. Oh oh, Die's babysitting skills.
Are you ready for this one?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Hit me?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay, you taught one time. You teach a lot, so hey,
there you go. You taught about how I can't remember
if it was like a Pyrex container.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Do you want to fill people in on this story
so that I'm not recapping and probably not doing a
great job on this.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I'm probably I don't know. I kind of like to
hear what stood out to you, So you go first.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, you talked about this idea that you babysat for
some people, and part of it was like making dinner
for their kids. As I go back in time and
memorize this, and you took a non microwave safe item
and you took it like for let's just let's just
(15:04):
imagine I can't remember what you were cooking. Maybe lasagna
is sitting inside this non micro say microwaves.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
How the telephone game starts but continue.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, but I you know, I imagine in my head, I
kind of go to that world. You put it in
the microwave, you hit whatever, it melts this thing, this
this uh whatever storage container for food, it melts it down.
And then as opposed to you saying, hey I screwed up,
(15:40):
parents that I'm watching your kids. Instead, you took it
and you hit it as far back in the fridge
as you could and then put things in front of it. Okay,
is this is this about the story?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Close enough? Yeah? I put I put tapaware in an oven.
I didn't know that plastic was not oven safe. Okay,
So glistening plastic, ribbons of melted tupperware hanging down between
the racks and pooling on the bottom of the oven.
And I scooped it all together with oven mits and
reshaped it, and then once it came I stuck it
(16:17):
in the back of the fridge. I did still feed
the children the fried chicken that was in the plastic.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Okay. Good. So we're kind of getting the same idea.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I got it from ten thousand feet and I had
the real life experience, yep. And I think the details
you know are are are important, But I think it's also.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, it's a message.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
It's a good message of like, what things are you
taking and putting in the very back of your fridge
and covering and hiding and where do those does that
really need to come to the forefront? That does that
need to be something that actually you need to address?
(17:06):
And I'm sitting there obviously.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Die.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, I don't suck up. You know, that's not
a thing I do. But the response of everyone in
the room, which that's not you know, that can it
can have varying levels of response from people. Was everyone
responded except for one me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right, and yet you can still recount the entire concept.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh, if you want to hear something funny, I remember
the very first time I went to your church when
I had that like.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I hate this place and oh.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You know, arms folded and my family all you know,
becoming Christian.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
At the time, Yeah, raising their hands.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I remember that message of Brandon saying, you know, while
Jesus was on the cross, you were on his mind.
So that's kind of an interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So I have this. I guess the people who are.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Against you, maybe they keep they keep it more up here,
you know, they keep they keep all the all the
messages in their mind. But I remember seeing this massive
response when you taught this this message and people really like,
you know, their life being changed by this, and me
(18:35):
looking around. Uh so this is a funny thing with
with alter calls. Maybe not funny, but an educational thing.
They asked people to close their eyes. I just don't
think they want like a viewing audience on people responding, right.
And I remember me eyes wide open, looking around like, huh,
I wonder who's going to respond, you know, to this?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Right, So I have me.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I'm like, die, you can't tell me what to do,
so you have me just looking around. But I think
that looking around also gave me this perspective of like,
I'm really all about being an authentic person, being my
(19:20):
authentic self. But as I looked around, I realized that
my resistance to God was not me being authentic.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
As I looked around, I realize, this is me actively
choosing to say no to God. Right, And through this experience,
like I'm I'm trying to put up walls, I'm trying
to actively resist. Yeah, whereas a noise and I put
(19:58):
myself in someone else's situation where they may just come
in blank slate, no Mormon spiritual baggage with them, and
they would be like, oh my gosh, I felt the
spirit of the Lord. It's moving me in this direction. Yes,
I want to accept Jesus. And then I saw myself
(20:20):
kind of experiencing all these things and because of my
past letting having me kind of trap myself in a
box of saying nope, I don't want anything to do
with with this. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
What was your takeaway? So the service concludes, You pack
up your family, you get in a car. Are you
relieved like I held out again or are you like, hum,
is that the right call? Like what's your walk away feeling?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think I think the I think that I was.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Really it's it's like on a spectrum, right, Like in
the beginning, I'm like relieved, like another hour down of
church per week.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'm building muscles of resistance, yeah, like working out and
I'm so tired.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'm like, you know, so there's like that in the
beginning of like another hour down.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Perfect, now we can.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Go dude, something else, right, And then and then there
kind of came this point and I remember it was
when you were when you were preaching this where I'm
just like, this is not really what I'm about or
who I am, Like, this is a projection of my past.
(21:50):
This is a projection of some anger that I have.
But it's not really like authentic to how I to
how I feel in this moment.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It's not it's not authentic to that And so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I have to kind of analyze that, and I have
to wrestle with that, like on my drive home or
during that week of like, I, is this who you're
going to be? Are you going to be this person
who's number one? Not really that well, like not really
(22:30):
spiritually or mentally in a good place?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Are you going to hold onto that until you're you're
kind of you know, always in this place and try
to stay in this place forever.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
So that's one thing I wrestled with. And then there's like, well, Kay,
you actually had some really positive experiences while trying to
seek God in the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints.
I'm getting it in yeah every episode, just so I'm
(23:06):
not a religious bigot, come on, friends. So, but while
you were in the Mormon Church, like you had these
really good moments where you did feel connected to something
bigger than yourself, and so there is a little bit
of that longing for some type of spiritual connection, right.
(23:30):
And I'm not trying to get into some the theological things.
I'm just saying just I'll just call it a spiritual connection.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And well, can I ask a question too? Because I
think you are by nature a pretty happy, joyful person.
You enjoy life, you like to laugh. We've even gotten
criticism on this podcast that we like to laugh. Yeah,
are you able to be that person who I think
(23:59):
you genuine are at your core while you're resisting and
pushing and angry.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, And I really wasn't. I was a pretty miserable person,
I think on the interior. On the exterior, I think
it's like, uh, I don't want to talk to people
about just how like not good this situation is. But
I think in those like times by myself, it's like,
(24:30):
this is a really like I don't feel good. I
feel I feel like there is this very empty spot
inside of me that if you were to ask me,
are you happy? The answer would definitely be no. But
people might think, oh, he seems okay, you know, he's
(24:51):
all right, you know, putting that you know, uh tupperware container,
you know, in the very and covering it with the
really nice things that I want people to see, and
then I want people to say, oh, yeah, see he's
a successful guy.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
He's a good you know, he's he's fine.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But really, on the inside, I was I was pretty
tormented by by this.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Die. You set up a really good segue here.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And that is this idea that when I gave my life,
like when I decided that I, you're being resistant just
for the sake of being resistant, like you actually want
to be in a relationship with Jesus. And I know
I'm summarizing that and making that really simple, and for me,
(25:45):
it wasn't simple. It was actually very hard, and so
I just I want to kind of speak to that.
I don't. I don't want to be like, oh yeah.
And then one day I woke up and I felt
good about all the.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Things in the church.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, Like, no, I didn't. That's not that's not the
way I went. But I decided to say, like, Kai,
you've explored this. You're experiencing something in your life where
you feel God calling you back to him. And I
(26:18):
remember just being like, yes, I want to accept that.
And it was right around the time of Easter, and
so on Easter of twenty twenty two, I gave my
life to Christ, which I thought was really great. It
was maybe a little overly methodical, but I gave my
(26:41):
life over to Christ. And I want to say I
didn't just hand over my life and put Jesus kind
of at the center of my life and try to
follow whatever his teachings are, whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
He wants me to do.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's not only what I handed over, Okay, okay. I
also handed over my anxiety, my stress, my incompleteness, my
sadness and depression, all of these things that like were
(27:17):
just weighing me down at the time. All of that
also was handed over. It was all put not on
myself anymore. It was just and I put that over.
And that's not to say that I didn't have moments
where I felt, you know, I felt those things again.
(27:38):
But I said, Jesus, if I'm really trusting you, if
I'm really putting all of this on you and I'm
giving my life to you, here you go. Here's all
the bad.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And was there some fear mixed in there too, because
trusting a religious system quote unquote had to be a
little scary. You're being vulnerable and now you can be
hurt again.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's that was totally on the
table of like, and I think my pride a little
bit too, or a lot, my ego of saying, how
will people perceive me who know that I am fully
out of the church and fully not into the whole
God thing. Like I'll tell kind of a funny story.
(28:28):
Maybe I've told this before. I hate telling the same
story twice. But a friend of mine I called him
after I was saved, so we were in the Elderscorn
Presidency together.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Die.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So I want to think of like a young like
a men's group pastor, and then he might have two
associate pastors or something like that. So all three of
us had left the church, so think of your whole
like men's group. Just being like that's not good, no
to God anymore. Okay, So all three of us had left.
(29:04):
I called one of them, like maybe three, you know.
A couple months after being saved, I called him up
and I said, hey, man, you wouldn't believe it, like
and I started the conversation this way. I said, you
wouldn't believe it, but I got saved in a Pentecostal
church and like gave my life to Christ and everything
(29:25):
like this is literally, hey, k, how's what's up? Man
told him the story. He starts laughing, and I'm like,
why why are you laughing? He's like, dude, that's so funny. Man,
Like I cannot yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like good one, you know, like oh yeah, I'm like no, like.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Like seriously, like I went and I you know, I
felt like this is the right thing for me to do.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
And you know, I'm a little on fire, right, like
I just gotta say it. I'm like pumped out for Jesus, right.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And he's like, he's like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, cool man,
Yeah that's great, you know, like you know, trying to
recover a little bit, you know how we.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Do that in conversations. He was like, oh, that's good
for you, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And so but I think that, yeah, I think that
that's one thing, right, like my my pride and my
like I'm not going to be tricked again. There's this
idea of like self preservation, right, none of us want
to continually do things that will hurt us, And so
I think I tried to, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Do that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
But once I handed that over, I said, you know, Jesus,
you're the one who's who I want to help me
deal with all of these problems that have that are
really impacting my life right now, and for me being Christian,
means here you go, you help me with these. So
(30:57):
I wanted to kind of land the plane, if you will,
on this and talk about once you've left the church,
your time in in Mormonism. I think it's a I
think it's a part, but I think that a lot
of ex Mormons let that be a huge part of
(31:19):
their story and a huge part of what dictates the
rest of their life. And I think, to their own detriment.
If I'm speaking for myself and the people that I know,
and I can I can look at, you know, to
their own like downfall, and it reminds me of like
(31:41):
me and my kids have just started golfing, and I
think that a lot of sports are mental. I don't
actually believe a lot of it is not physical at all.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I know that for myself, being an athlete, a lot
of it is mental. And I tell my kids, I mean,
my kids could hit a shot or I could hit
a shot that is way into the woods that we
get we're hitting it off of a rock and golf
and I say, well, what's interesting is that last shot
(32:14):
actually doesn't matter at all. Like what matters is the
next shot you're gonna take. You can't fix the last shot.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It's a great anchology.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You can't go back and say, oh, I'm gonna do
that again. It's just it is where it is. The
ball is gonna land wherever it lands, and so you
gotta pick the best, you know, iron or whatever you have.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
To get you out of wherever, wherever you're at.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The interesting thing is, I don't golf, but I watch
people golf. I mean, I've seen golfer. We lived on
a golf course for a while, so I watched a
lot of golf. I've watched golf on TV. And you
can see when somebody gets in their own head and
they're so mad about their last shot, and you can
see them take themselves out of the next shot. And
(33:09):
so I think that's such a great analogy for so
many areas of life. But it's hard to see. You
might be aware of it in yourself, but it's really
takes a lot of discipline to overcome the beat yourself up,
or keep yourself stuck, or regret over the last shot.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So yeah, yeah, And so it reminds me of when
I was golfing just the other day. We're up here,
ninth hole. I hit it right into the woods, and
I say, Kai, the smartest thing for you to do
to get yourself out of this is just just hit
it twenty yards to your right back on the fairway
(33:51):
away from you know, not away from the pin, but
you know laterally, yeah, and then get a nice easy shot,
good shot, Yeah, to get it close. Instead, I say,
I think I could, you know, because I did hit
it into the woods. I think I can thread the
needle on this thing and hit it through three trees.
(34:12):
Guess what, I hit all three trees on three different shots. Okay,
So my point being is that, you know, I let
that that pride and that ego of my first bad shot,
I let that dictate too much. And I relate that
(34:34):
back to this story of the first time I, you know,
of Brandon's message and of your message of like and
other experiences I had where I said, gosh, I could
accept Jesus at this time. But I'm letting my first
shot dictate what I do from here on out. And
I'm letting that, you know, push me in in maybe
(34:57):
a not so positive direction, even a direction that I
acknowledge isn't positive. But I'm unfortunately, you know, holding on
to that. And so I wanted to I wanted to
kind of say that if if you are somebody that
is that is holding on I just think there is
(35:19):
a lot of power and beauty in handing all of
that over, just realizing like, hey, I want to heal
from this, I want to move forward. I want to
be in a healthy space. And for me, that was
handing it over to Jesus and just putting that at
his feet and saying, I'm tired of trying to figure
(35:44):
this out on my own. I'm tired of all of
the anxiety and the depression and the sadness that comes
from me just trying.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
To fix this on my heaviness.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I I need to turn this over to somebody
great than me. And I'm telling you die it was.
It was a beautiful experience to do that and to
just say, hey, I'm surrendering this to Jesus and putting
this at his feet and whatever comes from here, you know,
(36:18):
I'm willing to follow Jesus for the rest of my life.
And so that's just my word of encouragement for you
guys out there who may be listening to this. Gosh,
think about that. Think about your resistance, but also think
about what you can hand over, Like, yeah, what would
be a beautiful thing to hand over and to not
(36:40):
hold on to, you know anymore? And is that part
of this surrendering, is that part of this giving a
way of yourself and choosing to follow something bigger, bigger
than you.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And it makes me think, I don't know that we've
ever said this of why we shows the name for
this podcast Jesus for Mormons, and we could have called
it ex Mormons Unite or you know, Anti the Church
of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints or whatever. We wanted
(37:16):
to give the hope peace which is Jesus is for Mormons,
and that even people leaving the damage they've experienced in
the Mormon Church or in the Mormon faith can find
hope and freedom and healing and a future in Jesus.
Jesus is for you. And that's the whole reason we're
(37:39):
doing this, is to tell your story of how you
found your way to Jesus and authentic faith in Jesus,
not in a religious belief system.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, definitely thanks for that.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Die.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So, if you want to continue to reach out to
me Jesus for Mormons at gmail dot com, you can
send me messages or I've been getting a lot, yeah,
or encouragement. I don't ask for encouragement, but.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It's been asking for you.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
It's actually been really cool and people just like, hey,
you're doing great, thank you for doing this, Like I
think that is, uh, it was. It's just been really
simple and it's been really fun for me to wake
up and oh wow, somebody sent me a really fun
message and then continue to write on our YouTube. I
think we're creating a little bit of a community there
(38:34):
of people that can you know, share ideas on YouTube
about about what about what we're doing here, and so yeah,
I think it's been die Thank you for joining me.
I know that you're like a jet setter, so.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
If you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, no place like home.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, so thank you for joining us today and uh
yeah until next time.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yep.
Have you ever felt like you've rejected God after leaving Mormonism.
I took every opportunity to reject God and leave my
religious past and belief behind. In this episode, we are
going to talk about those experiences and God's grace.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I am Kai van Leevin. I spent over thirty years
in the Mormon Church, and this is what I did
after leaving.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And I'm Diabeel's I'm a pastor at Venture Church in
the state of Washington, and I'm your friend and as always,
along for the ride.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
All right, well, let's talk about this first. I want
to say this has become really fun. I talk about
how fun Jesus for Mormons has been. Last night, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
last night, I'm standing on a beach. It's eight o'clock
at night, the sun is down at seventy degrees. I'm
(01:04):
talking to a Jesus for Mormon's fan who flew into
my home island at a vacation and said, Hey, my
family's here, let's hang out. So we have, yeah, him
and his wife, their two kids, just talking about what
it's like to be Mormon, to be ex Mormon and Christian.
(01:27):
And it was a really fun experience. We prayed together
at the end, and we both went on our merry way,
and yeah, it was a really cool experience. I also
appreciate all the people who have emailed me and text
me and reached out to me through different messengers and
(01:48):
just given encouragement for this. I think that's been a
really fun thing for me. This I love taking risk DIY.
You may or may not have figured that out about me.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yes, I'm aware this has been terrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
This is a really big project that's like, I'm really
putting myself out there, and so I appreciate every time
people just send a word of encouragement. I would rather
take big risks in other ways, putting my whole story
out there, and especially a story that is very hard
(02:26):
for me to tell. I do appreciate people telling me
that it's had an impact on them things like that.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think it's starting. Yeah, it's starting to get fun
for me. So today I wanted to talk about this
resistance that I had towards towards God, and I wanted
to talk about it in two very specific instances in
my faith journey. And I did not want it to
(02:56):
be a faith journey if you're tracking along with this story.
I did not really want it to be a faith journey.
I wanted it to be my wife and kids do
their own thing. I do my own thing. Been there,
done that on religion, Okay, I want to Well, but.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You didn't want that until after your Mormon faith crisis.
So that wasn't originally what you wanted. You wanted your
whole family to be a part of the Mormon church.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, sealed in the temple for return all that. Yes, Yeah,
then we had my crisis of faith where I said
I want nothing to do with religion, right, Die, that's good,
catch us up to speed, right, So I but I
had also said I kind of left the church behind.
(03:46):
I wasn't going back and forth between that old life
of being Mormon.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I was just kind of a blank slate for belief,
which is also interesting and I think really set the
table for me when I burned all of my relics
of Mormonism. That kind of set that set the table
I think for something new. So I I'll say this,
(04:13):
I was a husband that didn't want to make waves.
I didn't want to sit home. I wanted to make
sure my kids kind of got where they needed to go.
I didn't want to put put that whole burden on
my wife for church. So I ended up intermittently going
to church and going and watching the best pastor in
(04:37):
Washington State. Her name's Diabeels. I ended up going and
watching her and her husband at at Venture Church. But
my attitude of going there was not for anything other
than being with my family. Right, There wasn't a real
religious component to it. I thought that people at church
(04:58):
were nice, but you know, been there, done that.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I didn't need. I didn't need that expence.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I mean, I'll take I'll take that starting with these
people are nice. That's a good start. I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
And there are people that impacted me along the way
where I was like, oh, they're pretty cool, Like, you know,
I don't believe the way they do, but they're cool.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah. And so.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
That started to change. With a few sermons that I
listened to, and at the same time, me and my
son are also reading through the whole Bible.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I wanted him.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
He had just been baptized, and I'm like, listen, if
you're part of this Christian thing, I actually want you
to know and understand your beliefs. I don't believe the
same way you do. But I want you to know
your beliefs.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So I'm reading that to him.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Did you say I don't believe the same way you do? No,
I didn't say that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Okay, I didn't. And I'm a very straightforward person. I
don't believe I ever said it. But as I'm reading,
I'm just like, oh, my gosh, okay, you know. And
in the beginning, and then my heart started to soften.
As we kind of started to go through, right, I'm like, oh, oh,
that's interesting, and like by the time we hit the
New Testament, I was like, I don't know. Maybe I
(06:18):
guess I'm skipping a little forward in the story here.
But we read the full Bible. We read the full
fourteen hundred pages of the Bible cover to cover me
and my son, and that was an interesting experience. But
in the beginning I was like angrily reading it, and
as each page turned I probably probably started to soften.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Talk about these two times where I rejected God that's
maybe where we're going to pick up in this story,
and where I said, in spite of everything around me,
I am going to turn away from this. The first
one is when your husband was preaching this message on
(07:03):
the Valley of dry bones. Now, as as a Mormon,
I would think I.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Was loosely affiliated with this story.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I've heard it way more times in Christianity than I've
ever heard it in the Mormon Church. Maybe maybe it's
your you and your husband's thing. I don't know, Maybe
that's a maybe that's a thing of your church.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I don't remember him teaching on this, but I've taught
on it before. So I'm curious where you're going to
take this story.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, So I have an image that will bring you
back to it. Okay, to him teaching it, he brought
out a recliner. He had a recliner.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Remember the recliner, but I don't remember it being attached
to this section.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well, there you go. Let's let's talk about it. So
he is talking about this valley of dry bones, and
I want to give some context, just I actually think
for our Mormon an audience or past Mormon or whatever.
Ezekiel the prophet is like looking at the heat.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's un to me.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
It's unclear if it's a vision or if it's like
an actual valley of dry bones.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
But okay, we'll go either way.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Because it says that the hand of the Lord brought
me up. So this is from Ezekiel thirty seven, and
we're just gonna start in one. And it says the
hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me
out in the spirit of the Lord and set me
down in the midst of a valley. So imagine Ezekiel,
a prophet. He's looking out into this valley. Okay, we've
(08:42):
all seen that, like if you're standing on a on
a cliff and you're looking out into a valley. Then
he caused me. Then he caused me to pass by
them all around. So he's looking at there's a valley
of dry bones, right, and the Lord Lord says to Ezekiel,
(09:04):
son of Man, can these bones live? So I answered, oh, Lord, God,
you know. And then Ezekiel said, or God said, prophesy
to these bones and say to them, oh, bones, hear
the words of the Lord. So as he does this,
these bones start to come alive. As Ezekiel, this prophet
(09:30):
prophesies out, these bones start to come alive. So dead
people bones then they start to come alive. Okay, I'm
with you, you're with me. Die, And I think It's
always interesting when you hear stories like this and you
(09:51):
start to relate them to yourself.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Right, you start to then.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Zoom back to you sitting in a chair going through
a pretty nasty faith crisis, knowing that you're alive, but
feeling pretty dead inside. Right, Maybe that's like speaking to
some people out there but knowing that you're walking around
(10:18):
or moving, but inside you feel this huge hole that
really is not being being filled.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And I remember.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Listening to this message and knowing that I'm not really
well and knowing that I'm just there and present and
feeling feeling actually really moved by this message of like this,
these things that are dead changing their form and becoming alive.
(10:56):
And I'm sitting there and I'm just thinking about this.
And the great thing about about you know, Brandon or
or other great creatures is that there's this like call
to action that kind of pulls you into something.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Right. They call it an alter call.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay, I wasn't familiar with that term free Mormon.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I don't really, I didn't. Never I'd heard it, but
I didn't know what it meant. And it just means
like moving to some form of action.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, it's a response.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, it's a yeah, it's a response, not just like
sit there and then I don'll maybe take a note
or forget about it or whatever. Right if we're talking
about like, you know, sitting in a meeting. Right, But
it's like a movement of like doing something. And so
he's like, hey, if that's you, if you're that person
that's just doesn't like needs to feel live or wants
(11:55):
to feel live in this way, like now's the time.
And I'm like and like people are like engaged with
this and responding to this, and I'm looking up there
and I'm like no, like no, like I've already been
(12:16):
there and I don't want to go back there. And
so there's this huge resistance of like, hey, I've been
in religious systems, like no, I don't want to be there.
But I watched people be changed and moved by this
and go up and get prayed for and all these things.
And I'm thinking to myself, no, no, I'm I you know,
this logical side of my brain is saying is saying, no, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Did you cross your arms across your chest too?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And you know when I get when people are saying things,
I get really uncomfortable, and I kind of like shift
in my chair and like my legs kind of go
off to the side, like like I'm watching, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Are your tel want that you're very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, Like I'm watching somebody like get open heart surgery,
and I'm just like, oh, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So I get I get really really uncomfortable. But I
remember thinking, oh wow, that's a I just turned away
from this, you know. And I don't conscious it. I
actively I feel something pulling me in one direction, and
(13:26):
I'm actively saying no.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Okay, the end of that story, for those of you
who want to read through it, in Ezekiel thirty seven
goes Ezekiel thirty seven one through fourteen, and this whole
valley becomes a big army of people that have become
revived and.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Alive because they have the ruach the breath of God
in them.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah. Yeah, because they have the breath of God. Huh.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I wonder, I wonder how that works into the story. Okay,
the second time, Die, We're going to put you on
blast for the second time. Oh oh, Die's babysitting skills.
Are you ready for this one?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Hit me?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay, you taught one time. You teach a lot, so hey,
there you go. You taught about how I can't remember
if it was like a Pyrex container.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Do you want to fill people in on this story
so that I'm not recapping and probably not doing a
great job on this.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I'm probably I don't know. I kind of like to
hear what stood out to you, So you go first.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, you talked about this idea that you babysat for
some people, and part of it was like making dinner
for their kids. As I go back in time and
memorize this, and you took a non microwave safe item
and you took it like for let's just let's just
(15:04):
imagine I can't remember what you were cooking. Maybe lasagna
is sitting inside this non micro say microwaves.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
How the telephone game starts but continue.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, but I you know, I imagine in my head, I
kind of go to that world. You put it in
the microwave, you hit whatever, it melts this thing, this
this uh whatever storage container for food, it melts it down.
And then as opposed to you saying, hey I screwed up,
(15:40):
parents that I'm watching your kids. Instead, you took it
and you hit it as far back in the fridge
as you could and then put things in front of it. Okay,
is this is this about the story?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Close enough? Yeah? I put I put tapaware in an oven.
I didn't know that plastic was not oven safe. Okay,
So glistening plastic, ribbons of melted tupperware hanging down between
the racks and pooling on the bottom of the oven.
And I scooped it all together with oven mits and
reshaped it, and then once it came I stuck it
(16:17):
in the back of the fridge. I did still feed
the children the fried chicken that was in the plastic.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Okay. Good. So we're kind of getting the same idea.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I got it from ten thousand feet and I had
the real life experience, yep. And I think the details
you know are are are important, But I think it's also.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, it's a message.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
It's a good message of like, what things are you
taking and putting in the very back of your fridge
and covering and hiding and where do those does that
really need to come to the forefront? That does that
need to be something that actually you need to address?
(17:06):
And I'm sitting there obviously.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Die.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, I don't suck up. You know, that's not
a thing I do. But the response of everyone in
the room, which that's not you know, that can it
can have varying levels of response from people. Was everyone
responded except for one me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right, and yet you can still recount the entire concept.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh, if you want to hear something funny, I remember
the very first time I went to your church when
I had that like.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I hate this place and oh.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You know, arms folded and my family all you know,
becoming Christian.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
At the time, Yeah, raising their hands.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I remember that message of Brandon saying, you know, while
Jesus was on the cross, you were on his mind.
So that's kind of an interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So I have this. I guess the people who are.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Against you, maybe they keep they keep it more up here,
you know, they keep they keep all the all the
messages in their mind. But I remember seeing this massive
response when you taught this this message and people really like,
you know, their life being changed by this, and me
(18:35):
looking around. Uh so this is a funny thing with
with alter calls. Maybe not funny, but an educational thing.
They asked people to close their eyes. I just don't
think they want like a viewing audience on people responding, right.
And I remember me eyes wide open, looking around like, huh,
I wonder who's going to respond, you know, to this?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Right, So I have me.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I'm like, die, you can't tell me what to do,
so you have me just looking around. But I think
that looking around also gave me this perspective of like,
I'm really all about being an authentic person, being my
(19:20):
authentic self. But as I looked around, I realized that
my resistance to God was not me being authentic.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
As I looked around, I realize, this is me actively
choosing to say no to God. Right, And through this experience,
like I'm I'm trying to put up walls, I'm trying
to actively resist. Yeah, whereas a noise and I put
(19:58):
myself in someone else's situation where they may just come
in blank slate, no Mormon spiritual baggage with them, and
they would be like, oh my gosh, I felt the
spirit of the Lord. It's moving me in this direction. Yes,
I want to accept Jesus. And then I saw myself
(20:20):
kind of experiencing all these things and because of my
past letting having me kind of trap myself in a
box of saying nope, I don't want anything to do
with with this. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
What was your takeaway? So the service concludes, You pack
up your family, you get in a car. Are you
relieved like I held out again or are you like, hum,
is that the right call? Like what's your walk away feeling?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think I think the I think that I was.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Really it's it's like on a spectrum, right, Like in
the beginning, I'm like relieved, like another hour down of
church per week.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'm building muscles of resistance, yeah, like working out and
I'm so tired.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'm like, you know, so there's like that in the
beginning of like another hour down.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Perfect, now we can.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Go dude, something else, right, And then and then there
kind of came this point and I remember it was
when you were when you were preaching this where I'm
just like, this is not really what I'm about or
who I am, Like, this is a projection of my past.
(21:50):
This is a projection of some anger that I have.
But it's not really like authentic to how I to
how I feel in this moment.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It's not it's not authentic to that And so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I have to kind of analyze that, and I have
to wrestle with that, like on my drive home or
during that week of like, I, is this who you're
going to be? Are you going to be this person
who's number one? Not really that well, like not really
(22:30):
spiritually or mentally in a good place?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Are you going to hold onto that until you're you're
kind of you know, always in this place and try
to stay in this place forever.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
So that's one thing I wrestled with. And then there's like, well, Kay,
you actually had some really positive experiences while trying to
seek God in the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints.
I'm getting it in yeah every episode, just so I'm
(23:06):
not a religious bigot, come on, friends. So, but while
you were in the Mormon Church, like you had these
really good moments where you did feel connected to something
bigger than yourself, and so there is a little bit
of that longing for some type of spiritual connection, right.
(23:30):
And I'm not trying to get into some the theological things.
I'm just saying just I'll just call it a spiritual connection.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And well, can I ask a question too? Because I
think you are by nature a pretty happy, joyful person.
You enjoy life, you like to laugh. We've even gotten
criticism on this podcast that we like to laugh. Yeah,
are you able to be that person who I think
(23:59):
you genuine are at your core while you're resisting and
pushing and angry.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, And I really wasn't. I was a pretty miserable person,
I think on the interior. On the exterior, I think
it's like, uh, I don't want to talk to people
about just how like not good this situation is. But
I think in those like times by myself, it's like,
(24:30):
this is a really like I don't feel good. I
feel I feel like there is this very empty spot
inside of me that if you were to ask me,
are you happy? The answer would definitely be no. But
people might think, oh, he seems okay, you know, he's
(24:51):
all right, you know, putting that you know, uh tupperware container,
you know, in the very and covering it with the
really nice things that I want people to see, and
then I want people to say, oh, yeah, see he's
a successful guy.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
He's a good you know, he's he's fine.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But really, on the inside, I was I was pretty
tormented by by this.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Die. You set up a really good segue here.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And that is this idea that when I gave my life,
like when I decided that I, you're being resistant just
for the sake of being resistant, like you actually want
to be in a relationship with Jesus. And I know
I'm summarizing that and making that really simple, and for me,
(25:45):
it wasn't simple. It was actually very hard, and so
I just I want to kind of speak to that.
I don't. I don't want to be like, oh yeah.
And then one day I woke up and I felt
good about all the.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Things in the church.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, Like, no, I didn't. That's not that's not the
way I went. But I decided to say, like, Kai,
you've explored this. You're experiencing something in your life where
you feel God calling you back to him. And I
(26:18):
remember just being like, yes, I want to accept that.
And it was right around the time of Easter, and
so on Easter of twenty twenty two, I gave my
life to Christ, which I thought was really great. It
was maybe a little overly methodical, but I gave my
(26:41):
life over to Christ. And I want to say I
didn't just hand over my life and put Jesus kind
of at the center of my life and try to
follow whatever his teachings are, whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
He wants me to do.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's not only what I handed over, Okay, okay. I
also handed over my anxiety, my stress, my incompleteness, my
sadness and depression, all of these things that like were
(27:17):
just weighing me down at the time. All of that
also was handed over. It was all put not on
myself anymore. It was just and I put that over.
And that's not to say that I didn't have moments
where I felt, you know, I felt those things again.
(27:38):
But I said, Jesus, if I'm really trusting you, if
I'm really putting all of this on you and I'm
giving my life to you, here you go. Here's all
the bad.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And was there some fear mixed in there too, because
trusting a religious system quote unquote had to be a
little scary. You're being vulnerable and now you can be
hurt again.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's that was totally on the
table of like, and I think my pride a little
bit too, or a lot, my ego of saying, how
will people perceive me who know that I am fully
out of the church and fully not into the whole
God thing. Like I'll tell kind of a funny story.
(28:28):
Maybe I've told this before. I hate telling the same
story twice. But a friend of mine I called him
after I was saved, so we were in the Elderscorn
Presidency together.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Die.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So I want to think of like a young like
a men's group pastor, and then he might have two
associate pastors or something like that. So all three of
us had left the church, so think of your whole
like men's group. Just being like that's not good, no
to God anymore. Okay, So all three of us had left.
(29:04):
I called one of them, like maybe three, you know.
A couple months after being saved, I called him up
and I said, hey, man, you wouldn't believe it, like
and I started the conversation this way. I said, you
wouldn't believe it, but I got saved in a Pentecostal
church and like gave my life to Christ and everything
(29:25):
like this is literally, hey, k, how's what's up? Man
told him the story. He starts laughing, and I'm like,
why why are you laughing? He's like, dude, that's so funny. Man,
Like I cannot yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like good one, you know, like oh yeah, I'm like no, like.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Like seriously, like I went and I you know, I
felt like this is the right thing for me to do.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
And you know, I'm a little on fire, right, like
I just gotta say it. I'm like pumped out for Jesus, right.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And he's like, he's like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, cool man,
Yeah that's great, you know, like you know, trying to
recover a little bit, you know how we.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Do that in conversations. He was like, oh, that's good
for you, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And so but I think that, yeah, I think that
that's one thing, right, like my my pride and my
like I'm not going to be tricked again. There's this
idea of like self preservation, right, none of us want
to continually do things that will hurt us, And so
I think I tried to, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Do that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
But once I handed that over, I said, you know, Jesus,
you're the one who's who I want to help me
deal with all of these problems that have that are
really impacting my life right now, and for me being Christian,
means here you go, you help me with these. So
(30:57):
I wanted to kind of land the plane, if you will,
on this and talk about once you've left the church,
your time in in Mormonism. I think it's a I
think it's a part, but I think that a lot
of ex Mormons let that be a huge part of
(31:19):
their story and a huge part of what dictates the
rest of their life. And I think, to their own detriment.
If I'm speaking for myself and the people that I know,
and I can I can look at, you know, to
their own like downfall, and it reminds me of like
(31:41):
me and my kids have just started golfing, and I
think that a lot of sports are mental. I don't
actually believe a lot of it is not physical at all.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
You know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I know that for myself, being an athlete, a lot
of it is mental. And I tell my kids, I mean,
my kids could hit a shot or I could hit
a shot that is way into the woods that we
get we're hitting it off of a rock and golf
and I say, well, what's interesting is that last shot
(32:14):
actually doesn't matter at all. Like what matters is the
next shot you're gonna take. You can't fix the last shot.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It's a great anchology.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You can't go back and say, oh, I'm gonna do
that again. It's just it is where it is. The
ball is gonna land wherever it lands, and so you
gotta pick the best, you know, iron or whatever you have.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
To get you out of wherever, wherever you're at.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The interesting thing is, I don't golf, but I watch
people golf. I mean, I've seen golfer. We lived on
a golf course for a while, so I watched a
lot of golf. I've watched golf on TV. And you
can see when somebody gets in their own head and
they're so mad about their last shot, and you can
see them take themselves out of the next shot. And
(33:09):
so I think that's such a great analogy for so
many areas of life. But it's hard to see. You
might be aware of it in yourself, but it's really
takes a lot of discipline to overcome the beat yourself up,
or keep yourself stuck, or regret over the last shot.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So yeah, yeah, And so it reminds me of when
I was golfing just the other day. We're up here,
ninth hole. I hit it right into the woods, and
I say, Kai, the smartest thing for you to do
to get yourself out of this is just just hit
it twenty yards to your right back on the fairway
(33:51):
away from you know, not away from the pin, but
you know laterally, yeah, and then get a nice easy shot,
good shot, Yeah, to get it close. Instead, I say,
I think I could, you know, because I did hit
it into the woods. I think I can thread the
needle on this thing and hit it through three trees.
(34:12):
Guess what, I hit all three trees on three different shots. Okay,
So my point being is that, you know, I let
that that pride and that ego of my first bad shot,
I let that dictate too much. And I relate that
(34:34):
back to this story of the first time I, you know,
of Brandon's message and of your message of like and
other experiences I had where I said, gosh, I could
accept Jesus at this time. But I'm letting my first
shot dictate what I do from here on out. And
I'm letting that, you know, push me in in maybe
(34:57):
a not so positive direction, even a direction that I
acknowledge isn't positive. But I'm unfortunately, you know, holding on
to that. And so I wanted to I wanted to
kind of say that if if you are somebody that
is that is holding on I just think there is
(35:19):
a lot of power and beauty in handing all of
that over, just realizing like, hey, I want to heal
from this, I want to move forward. I want to
be in a healthy space. And for me, that was
handing it over to Jesus and just putting that at
his feet and saying, I'm tired of trying to figure
(35:44):
this out on my own. I'm tired of all of
the anxiety and the depression and the sadness that comes
from me just trying.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
To fix this on my heaviness.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I I need to turn this over to somebody
great than me. And I'm telling you die it was.
It was a beautiful experience to do that and to
just say, hey, I'm surrendering this to Jesus and putting
this at his feet and whatever comes from here, you know,
(36:18):
I'm willing to follow Jesus for the rest of my life.
And so that's just my word of encouragement for you
guys out there who may be listening to this. Gosh,
think about that. Think about your resistance, but also think
about what you can hand over, Like, yeah, what would
be a beautiful thing to hand over and to not
(36:40):
hold on to, you know anymore? And is that part
of this surrendering, is that part of this giving a
way of yourself and choosing to follow something bigger, bigger
than you.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And it makes me think, I don't know that we've
ever said this of why we shows the name for
this podcast Jesus for Mormons, and we could have called
it ex Mormons Unite or you know, Anti the Church
of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints or whatever. We wanted
(37:16):
to give the hope peace which is Jesus is for Mormons,
and that even people leaving the damage they've experienced in
the Mormon Church or in the Mormon faith can find
hope and freedom and healing and a future in Jesus.
Jesus is for you. And that's the whole reason we're
(37:39):
doing this, is to tell your story of how you
found your way to Jesus and authentic faith in Jesus,
not in a religious belief system.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, definitely thanks for that.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Die.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So, if you want to continue to reach out to
me Jesus for Mormons at gmail dot com, you can
send me messages or I've been getting a lot, yeah,
or encouragement. I don't ask for encouragement, but.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It's been asking for you.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
It's actually been really cool and people just like, hey,
you're doing great, thank you for doing this, Like I
think that is, uh, it was. It's just been really
simple and it's been really fun for me to wake
up and oh wow, somebody sent me a really fun
message and then continue to write on our YouTube. I
think we're creating a little bit of a community there
(38:34):
of people that can you know, share ideas on YouTube
about about what about what we're doing here, and so yeah,
I think it's been die Thank you for joining me.
I know that you're like a jet setter, so.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
If you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, no place like home.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, so thank you for joining us today and uh
yeah until next time.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yep.
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