Jesus for Mormons #35: Mormon Leadership Sexual Abuse Coverup, and Finding Jesus

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
What does sexual assault, polygamy, and COVID have in common? Well,
what they have in common is my guest that I
have on today, Yeah, on A Lisa, And I've been
practicing saying that an Alisa has a great story that

(00:25):
is riddled with a lot of interesting stories and fun
things that we're going to get into, but really it's
about her resilience in life. And on A Lisa grew
up Mormon and went into the ex Mormon space and
is now is now Christian, and so we're going to

(00:46):
get into her story today on A Liisa, Thanks for
being on Jesus for Mormons.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks so much for having me here.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah, so it's a kind of interesting topics but definitely
makes up the majority of my story today.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, all right, perfect. So where is it that you
grew up?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
So?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
I grew up in Southern Texas. You know, everyone likes
to say San Antonio, South Texas, but take four hours
south of that and that's where I grew up, next
to the border. My family's Mexican American predominantly on my
mom's side, on my first generation American, my dad's I'm second,
So most of my family came from Mexico and yeah,
we you know, generationally, have like a lot of deep

(01:26):
groups in Mexico.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
And I'm actually living in Mexico now right now.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
Oh, okay, And where are you at in Mexico.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I live in the Yukaton Peninsula in one of
the safest cities in Mexico, Medida. It's pretty awesome. But
the food here is okay. I'm still used to the
Mexican food.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
Yeah, oh, there you go. All right.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
And for those of you who might be listening to
this later, it's in January. How hot is it there
in January?

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh, it's like in the eighties, you know, it's like
pretty high eighties. So we're we can get in the
pool no problem and really enjoy it, especially when we're
walking on a hot day.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
We're going to jump in the pool afterwards.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
I like a little winter heat. I can definitely appreciate that.
So tell me a little bit about your upbringing. I mean,
we have a lot of really controversial topics to go
over in this interview personal to you, what are some
of the things that are that most stand out to
you just from growing up and what might what might

(02:31):
make your story interesting and unique to the people listening.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
I mean, there's so much to go, I guess and too,
I mean, I'm I'm a late early millennial, so you know,
I'm getting to my forties, and you know, there's been
a lot of things in the growing up in the
Mormon Church early years that I experienced. You know, sexual
abuse was one of those in the church. And yeah,

(02:57):
it's been a lot of different things that I grew
up with. My mom was a convert to the church.
She would converted when.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
She was in her youth.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
And then my dad was a generational Mormon, so he
was a third generation and so I'm fourth on his side.
So there's a lot of to unpack because that's all
I knew in my life was Mormonism.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So you you grew up active, Were
your parents super active, not very active? Where did they
fall on the you know, Mormon activity spectrum.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, you know, my dad was always very, very passionate
about his religion, so you could say he was extreme
in his beliefs, and that kind of leads into later
on in my and my story. But my dad was
very active in elders Quorum, very high in leadership positions.
My mom was one equally the same. She was very
much in primary always. You could like, she has a

(03:51):
very beautiful voice, so her voice is like primary president
all day long. And she's had you know, we had
six kids in the family, so it really into her
niche in life. And yeah, it's it was really cool
to see those two leadership positions. And then all my
extended family was LDS, so that's all we knew. That's

(04:11):
all my cousins knew. We lived on tons of family,
you know, Hispanics, we have a lot of family, so
all the were Mormon, and yeah, it was it was
very kiss you could say, a bubble in a way.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It kind of reminds me of growing
up in the church. It's for me, at least, families
had certain pews that they would sit at right, and
you knew that the Smith family sits on the fourth
you know, far right, fifth row back from the front, right,

(04:43):
and then this family sits here, and this family sits here.
Is it would you say that your family kind of
followed that same thing or were they?

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, maybe it's a different and you know it's like
it's it's it's everyone had their spot. If you take
someone else, But I was like it wasn't like there
you're mad at them, or like they were mad at
you for taking their spot. You just sat where we
always sat, you know. We always sat in the middle
on the side so if we needed an easy exit,
we could get out because we had six kids, and
then sometimes it wasn't feasible to sit on the side,

(05:12):
so we'd sit in the middle. But typically it was
the middle front, if that makes sense. And I mean
most people will understand what that kind of is because
we're not in the back where you're just like running
out all the time because we're sitting down and we're
misbehaving or we're gonna get.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Thought vous afterwards.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
So you know, like that was that was our typical
Sunday routine. Like for example, like we would be like
even misbehave at church were there's six kids, and so
at like every after every church, it was like who's
going to get spanked first? You know, so we would
actually at the end of it all, we would have
like push each other down to be in line who
would get spanked first, because we didn't want to be

(05:48):
the one spank to last. And so that was kind
of our our Sunday routine growing up. A lot of
the time was like just we misbehaved and we were
rowdy and we were loud kids.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
That was just about it.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people are
probably going back down memory lane of growing up in
the church. And when you say middle, everyone knows what
you mean. You say right and left, It's like everyone
knows the layout of a chapel, which is kind of
kind of fun. So you you touched on this a
little bit, and I want to just like dive right

(06:21):
into a really hard topic which I think is important
to talk about. You talked about sexual abuse within the church,
and we've seen, like especially recently, a lot of cover ups,
especially with boy scout stuff and that, you know, things
being changed with that. I just kind of want to

(06:43):
talk about it because I think it's I think it's
important for people out there to kind of hear your
story about that. So can you kind of walk us
through that story and what and what happened there?

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, So we were, you know, in the ward that
we've always been in. We have.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
I had a high counselor man named Maldonada. I'll just
say his last name. I don't really know his first name.
I forget it because it's been a while. I think
he just recently got out of prison after twenty serving
twenty over twenty years and for sexual assault to several children,
specifically little girls. And so what happened was is that

(07:20):
he started doing work with my family because in the church,
you know, you go to people that you know in
church to help you with like electrical plumbing whatever. Right,
So he was a contractor and my parents hired him
on for a couple jobs at the house, and that's
when the abuse started occurring. It was to me specifically,
since I was like around the asia he was usually

(07:42):
I didn't know this, My parents didn't know this beforehand,
but he had setually abused three other little girls in
the same church in the same word, and the leaders
knew about this, and they didn't tell any of the members.
And so my parents had no idea letting this man
in the house doing contracting work. And my parents owned
a bus this, so you know, there was a lot
of things that played into him, Like we weren't always

(08:04):
being watched by my parents, and my parents were you know,
they're trying to build a business and and you know,
they had a house. We had a housekeeper who watched us,
and so it was during that time where he started
that sexual abuse, and and it was very shameful, as
you know, as any person can say, Uh, as a child,
you always think it's your fault, like you're you're the
one that's doing it. You're for some reason, it's your fault.

(08:26):
And so uh that's what I happened for several months
on my end, and so he always found some reason
to insert himself in our family's life. And my parents,
like I said, were kind of, you know, busy building
their business, so it was it was a kind of
a strenuous time for them.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
And so uh, when it when it came down to.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Like my he started paying attention to my little sister
who was younger than me, and and to me as well,
I started to that was like something that clicked in
my head that I knew that. It was so like
in my head it was like when I was, you know, ten,
I was like, oh, this.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Is my fault, you know, and I think it was
nine actually, nine or ten.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
I think it was nine actually, and I was thinking
it was my fault. But then I looked at my
little sister who was seven, and I knew it wasn't
her fault, because how could it be. So that's when
she started telling me because I started to notice his
behavior towards her, and so I told my parents because
I knew it wasn't my sister's fault because she was
seven and she was you know, I had that protective

(09:27):
role on her over her. And so my parents then
went to the bishop and the bishop called him in
took away I think his ability to pass due side
like something with Priestood. I don't know what it was,
but he wasn't. He wasn't he was still a high
high counselor, like he was still in high council like.
I know that for sure, because my dad was very

(09:49):
upset about it. The Bishop told my parents not to
go to the police at all. My parents my God
wanted to the Bishop told uh he would talk to
the sack president. He was going through repentance process YadA
da ya da ya da, So nothing was done outside
the church. My parents were true believing Mormons, and so
they listen to the bishop since he holds the keys

(10:10):
to the priesthood in that ward, so obviously he is
directed by God to tell him not to go to
the police, and so my parents did that. They didn't
go to the police and then but my dad was
still so upset because this man still went to church
as if nothing occurred, you know, no one was warned.
He couldn't talk about it. And so we moved actually

(10:30):
out of the city that we lived, into a different ward,
into just a different, completely different stake to avoid this man.
Then we get a phone call about a year and
a half later that he had done it to another
little girl in the ward. This time it was more
severe than what he had done to me and my sister,
and so we actually had to go to court for this.
So the bishop at the time actually disregard it. Stake

(10:54):
president and the seventies in the area, and he went
to the police. He went to the police and called
the police. And this is the fifth little girl at
this point that we know of that that's been on
the record. And so he went to the police against
all church leadership, all against all advice, and he got
in trouble for it. He wasn't to this day, I

(11:14):
don't think he's ever been called to any kind of
higher calling beyond what he was at the bishop at
that time. And so we went to the we wait
I mean my story is I got justice, you know,
so did my sister, so did all the other little
girls that were there and spoke against this man. But
we went to court and he you know, I still

(11:35):
remember thinking it was the most terrifying experience, having to
point this man out in front of him, in front
of the in front of the judge and everything. At
eleven years old. It's it's one of those things that
you just it's kind of surreal. But but yeah, we
saw that firsthand. I saw that firsthand, the cover up
of what like how many children had happened before. You know,

(11:56):
that bishop hadn't gone to the police against the leadership's advice,
it would have still been good occurring. So I can't
I can't even imagine the damage he would have done
more at beyond that. So that's kind of like a
summary of what would happened.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, And it's just it's just terrible, Like you think
about these things and you I've sadly, I've been too
intimately close to one of these situations, and you know,
you see just the wreckage that comes out of out

(12:29):
of it, and I don't know, I just feel so sad.
I think of a young a young girl being kind
of put in that situation and.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Just how how sad that is for her.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
I also think about the motive involved in in not
bringing it at all to light, Like what do you
think the motive was as you as you were kind
of a you know, a victim of this system, what
do you think I think the motive was of kind
of keeping it within the church and not and not

(13:05):
putting it out there.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
You know, as an adult you look in hindsight, right,
it's different as a child, But really honestly.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Came to me like what it was like.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
I remember specifically one night where I just kind of
closed that chapter for several years, like I was like, you.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Know, that was done.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
It was done and said and Frank was one of
my most favorite books at the time, and I really
drew straight from her example. So I actually wrote out
this letter that because she was inspired, like you know,
to write a journal and stuff like that. So I
think that there was I mean, there's so much like
example to glean from these people in the past, and
so I got strained from that because I really didn't

(13:42):
get any therapy or counseling from anybody or anyone ever
kind of reached out to me, none of the church
members that it was just like forgive him and move on,
Like they told me, count me to forgive him and
let it go basically. And I can only imagine telling
that total eleven year old now to an abuser, to
to the like, oh, you need to forgive the abuser
and move on. And I still that's still kind of

(14:03):
like wow. People's mindset is just interesting when it comes
to that. But in hindsight, I look at it like,
this is a this is a very dangerous uh protecting pedophiles.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
I mean, it really is.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
It's protecting the pedophiles, and and then and using it
in a guise to say, uh, the the justice system
is corrupt.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Maybe maybe the only way to do it.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Is is through the church leadership and through the correct priesthood.
But obviously that it proves to be wrong because of
how many examples are going on.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
And I think it also.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Speaks to a more deeper disease in the church when
it comes to a lot of shame, a lot of
shame involved. So I don't I don't really know what's
their motive other than protecting pedophiles. That's that's that's really
the only thing I can think of.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, and that's I I wonder if it has to
do with brand, you know, I wonder if it has
to do with protecting the brand of the church, right,
and how squeaky clean it is, right they have this.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, and the payment is to protect pedophiles. You're protecting
those people. I mean, that's the payment of protecting the brand.
And so you know, you know, it's like I know
the girl, the last girl who was assaulted after me,
she had several years of trauma, several years of trauma
that she went through, and so I'm grateful that nothing

(15:33):
more serious happened to me, but like it happened to her,
and I could see those direct effects. So whose price
is it just for an image?

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
I guess if that makes sense. It doesn't make sense
to me at all. It doesn't speak anything into Christ
like attributes to any organization, and so we should condemn
it on every front.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
So yeah, yeah, definitely, it's uh, yeah, I just we
could we could stay here and I could talk about
you know, I was involved in something similar where I
where I was around a lot of victims of abuse,
and it's it's just so like it is a deep

(16:21):
problem that perpetuates itself and can have just so many
downstream bad effects that to cover up for these people,
I think is is like really disgusting. I'm just going
to be honest, Like, if somebody is abusing children and
you you should be the first person to call them

(16:41):
in and and have it, you know, have it be handled,
to sweep it under the rug. And to have people
who are frankly unqualified to deal with these types of situations.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
Is crazy.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
And so another side to it is like, you know,
I don't, like I said, I didn't talk about this
part of my life for several years, and so the
tendency with true believing Mormons that I've in my own
family and my extended family is like, did that really happen?
That's that's the reaction because they're so ingrained about even
though it's it's verified, it's you can look up the

(17:17):
court case, you could it could actually study the trial.
It's like a study out there to show you how
to approach these these allegations and everything that happens. So
it doesn't really matter what kind of evidence you put
to people who are true believing Mormons, they want to
excuse the behavior excuse the leadership to some degree, and
in that in that moment, they can just throw you

(17:39):
under the bus, and so we have to be as
as a Christian. I look at it and I'm like,
they're just they're not seeing it. They're just not seeing
it because they're blinded by this follow the leaders the
church can do no wrong. The follow the profit the
leadership is right. And so I understand that to some extent,
But I also it's just one of those things, those tactics.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
That they yeah, I'm sorry that happened to you. Honly, Yeah, holy,
So that's terrible. I mean, that's uh, you know, it's
one of those things where I just I don't know,
I just feel feel terrible for you to be in that,
in that situation as a young girl, and and then

(18:19):
on the back end of that, to have people kind
of doubt your your experience that's very verifiable. I would
think I would think that would be that would be
really really hard. And so you you grew up in
the in the in the church, and that was you
were kind of holding to that in your story. As

(18:41):
we kind of talked a little bit off camera, you
talked a little bit about your parents about your dad
and his uh, let's just say true believing Mormon self
kind of took him down maybe a non conventional LDS

(19:02):
family set up. And so do you want to talk
about that a little bit.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, So, my dad's always been very passionate, very zeala's personality.
He was, you know, I didn't know this until like recently.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
He was.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
The very first goal that my mom and he told
my mom after they got married in Temple was he
wanted to get the Second Anointing. And if you don't
know what that is, you could look that up what
the Second Annointing is. But so he was like gung
ho about learning about that.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
How did how do you think he found out about it?

Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well, he was he was very much into like study
and deep doctrines, journal of discourses when he was younger.
I mean, he was just one of those studious people
in the Mormon Church. It got him into some trouble
because you know, he you know, as you can kind
of see, the Mormon Church has a like kind of
like a anti government United States government history, and so

(19:57):
that's kind of what got him started. It was like
he didn't want to pay tax is you know, he was.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Trying to figure out some way.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
You know, my dad's just very like, he's just all
or nothing kind of personality, and so like it got
him into this. We moved to Utah in two thousand
and one, after nine to eleven happened because my dad
was like, oh, the end of the world's coming, and
by that.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Time he had can I track on this? What age
were you when you moved there in two thousand and one?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, so I was fourteen.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
I had just turned fourteen, and I was homeschooled, and
so I had lived in a predominantly Hispanic culture. So
my maiden name was very much, you know, very hard
to say as an English person. So I actually had
to change my like the way I said my last name,
just because it was a complete culture shock when I
moved to southern Utah. I lived part of my life
in southern Utah, and I grew up around kind of

(20:47):
like the rebel part of Utah. I guess you could say, okay,
and so oh sorry.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
Go ahead, Oh no, go ahead, sorry.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
So then my dad he got into a lot of
like deep doctrines, specifically with polygamy, alat of consecration, stuff
like that. So he was looking for more truth right
in his mind. And so I would say he was
like in his late thirties or forties at this point,
and he was kind of getting into the section one

(21:17):
thirty two and why did it go away?

Speaker 2 (21:20):
And all this other stuff.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
So him and my mom over several years, my mom
kind of kicking and dragging because during this time, I
had an older brother who passed away in a car accident.
He was his name is Nephi, and so he actually
passed away before he turned twenty, the very neck like
he was nineteen, turned twenty the next day in a
car accident. So that kind of spiraled my dad even
more into two polygamy ideas and stuff like that, and

(21:43):
so there was a lot of dynamics going on. So
living in southern Utah kind of a rebel area of
you know, Mormonism in some ways a lot of polygamy.
You know, the interest is there because you see him
at stores. You see him like, you know, just shopping
and they all have their pastel pink, you know, dresses
and stuff like that. And so out of all the kids,

(22:05):
it was like my dad started going to the Polygamist church,
and I was kind of like that and really Mormons
thinking they were living the full law of eternal marriage.
And so I don't think I met any other ex
Mormon or Mormon Mexican polygamous.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
In my life except my father. And so that's kind of.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Like what got him into that, and then he got
you know that kind of like dealt with a prepper
kind of mentality during that time period, I actually had
moved out of the house, so I was already eighteen
after my brother had passed, and so I was kind
of outside of that when he was doing all that stuff.
And uh, I sadly feel bad because I kind of
left my younger siblings behind. I'm the second oldest, dealing

(22:48):
with a lot of very unique experiences in the warmer church.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, and so you you moved into this this area
just so that I can kind of recap this where
there were a lot like a polygamist group and that
you think might have influenced your dad or or maybe
the doctrine plus that or how what what? How did

(23:16):
that all work out? Because to me, you know, we
have like the official declaration one right, that is that is,
you know, no more polygamy kind of and then mostly
on the surface, right, and people are who are obviously
very familiar with the church. They know that, you know, polygamy,

(23:40):
you can't do it anymore. And so how how do
you think your dad kind of reconciled that with with belief?
I mean, where where did he find himself in the
in the we'll call it the Brigamite branch of Mormonism.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
Like you know, it's it's funny, he'sa a sort of
kind of right, because that's the big caveat right there, right,
It's it's if you truly read the T one thirty two,
you would read the Manifesto for what it was, appeasement
to the you know, as a true believing Mormon. Like
if you were to put the reality of like what
you know, Wolf.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Of Woodrift, did anyone else did?

Speaker 3 (24:15):
They were kind of like, oh, yeah, we don't do it,
but we do do it, but we're not going to
tell you that we're doing it. And so, you know,
it's a very gray area to be in, especially when
your foundation is ongoing revelation, which the church is based on.
So you know, I mean it's kind of like one
of those things like there's like so many jokes when
it comes to Catholicism, productism, but definitely that.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, and I okay, so our stories actually kind of
weave here a little bit after the official declaration one
the manifesto, I had family that were polygamists that moved
down to Mexico.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
Wow, which is kind of kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right that that we have this this kind of weave
in story. But obviously they were fine practicing it not
in the United States and still being part of you know,
the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints, the Brigamite
branch of Mormonism. So I just think that that's always

(25:20):
kind of interesting. As I heard your story about polygamy,
I said, oh, I have you know, like my family
back in what would it be early nineteen hundreds were
polygamists down in down in Mexico. So I just think
that that's a really interesting interesting thing. So your dad
decides that that he's testing out this polygamists was it?

(25:47):
You said it wasn't FLDS though it was a different
It was like.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
It's called Centennial Park. It's like the liberal version of
the fldsay, broke off from the Warren Jebs people, and
so they're more like they're just more like chill like
they're more chill to outsiders coming into their group. They're
really nice people. I think they're honestly some of the
still best people I've met. Uh And really they make
awesome food, and like I we're like whenever they were

(26:11):
gonna like do anything, because I'd go to their dances,
I would, like my dad, I was still living with
them at the times, so they were kind of dipping
their toes into it, and I was like, well, if
there's gonna be.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Food, I'll go.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
Because they make some of the best country food in
the world, and because every wife kind of has their
own special dish, so like one's really good at making
pies and the other one's really good at cooking like chicken,
you know. Like it was like, well, I mean, I
don't believe in any of this. It's super chill food,
so I'm gonna go eat them hang out with them.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
And they were really nice people. So I got to like.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Get into that that community a bit. And and on
this whole time, my bishop, the Mormon bishop, mainstream Mormon bishop,
was trying to, you know, dissuade my parents from going
that route. This is before my brother passed away. So
when my brother passed away. It was kind of like
a snowball effect. I could just like escalate it, and
my dad was like, you've got to all of this
is the true way. Joseph Smith, you know, he was

(27:03):
a big he's a big Joseph Smith proponent, and so yeah,
so coming from that, and you know, a spoiler, my
dad's now saved. He rejects Mormonism and believes in the
Bible and the biblical Jesus. You know, can you understand
if you're coming from that point of viewtube where my
dad's at today, it's only some miracle from God. H
And to see that transformation is just amazing.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
So yeah, yeah, that is that's beautiful to think about.
But I do I have a a respect for people
who are passionate about their beliefs, right, Yeah, Like I know,
me in the Mormon Church, for better or worse, I
was so hardcore in you know, and I think that

(27:47):
pushes you even as we see in the ex Mormon
space those people are also hardcore ex Mormon, right, they
have very strong, passionate beliefs, are not lukewarm people. And
so that that translates right to well, I'm going to
actively pursue this and now it's beautiful that your that

(28:10):
your dad and I believe both your parents right are.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yeah, my mom and my dad, Yeah, they accepted Christ.
My mom accepted Christ a little bit after I was rebaptized.
I got rebaptized and my local church up in Texas,
and my mom kind of that kind of shook her
up a bit about like what is done a why
is she changing believes all of a sudden because I
was a more zealous one that was like the one
that was all in out of my six siblings, you know,

(28:36):
white brother had passed, so I was acting oldest, and
so I was very much, uh, post child for the family,
like did we do what on and wants to you know,
go that route, get married in temple, all that stuff.
So going from that, from my last calling was primary
president two wards in a row, to to believe in

(28:56):
the biblical Jesus was very shocking for my parents, and
so it really question what this was.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, Yeah, And I think it's that that can have
a real big effect on people right right, like watching
what's happening around you and your family. A lot of
people have experienced that in the church, like since COVID,
since all of these you know, kind of shake up

(29:23):
in the church, not going to church. A lot of
people started to kind of do things, you know, differently,
and families have kind of started to change in that.
I want to back up a little bit in your story.
So we have this early childhood kind of late teenage
years with your your parents kind of in on the

(29:45):
polygamy side. What happened like after high school? Did you go,
like go on a mission?

Speaker 4 (29:53):
Did you? I guess.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
That would be a very conventional path, I think for
younger people, but we're about the same age on Lisa, right,
So what is it that you did after high school
and what was kind of the next next few steps
for you?

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (30:11):
So, I mean, like my childhood like that was stained
with that abuse, but I also enjoyed the Mormon culture.
I loved the Mormon community. I used to like, I mean,
Pioneer Day was like one of my favorite days. I
loved dressing up and bonnets and all that fun stuff.
I kind of have an old soul, you know, personality,
so it was like one of my things I love

(30:31):
to do. And so when I was like in my
teen years and I grew up in southern Utah, there
was a little bit of like, I mean, even though
I look kind of like wet on Mexican, I have
that darkness, like kind of maybe Italian looking to people.
So there was a little bit of like a weird
vibe when I moved to southern Utah, especially in the
early two thousands, there was like I want to say racism,

(30:52):
I want to say outright racism, but just kind of
like a little bit of like like I got comments
like your dad's a doctor, and your Mexican and you
live in this house, Like it was just confusing to
them because all the Mexicans they knew were like day
workers or you know, weren't educated.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
And so it was a little bit of interesting dynamic.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
And so my teen years was very interesting, kind of
like not shade it with that, but a little bit
like that that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Interesting, Yeah, And so that that was through through your
teens and then you graduate high school, you kind of
move move through what was what was that like, Like
did you go to a church college or did you.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Stay back home? What was what was kind of the
next track for you?

Speaker 3 (31:36):
So kind of leading into that, it was like I
kind of went inactive towards my later teens and then
my my high school, like I didn't graduate because my
brother passed away, so I was like, I'm not going
back to school. I got my GD I went to
Dixie State College at the time, it was called Dixie
and uh, I wasn't I didn't really do institute. I
wasn't really active at that point because I was so

(31:58):
you know, there's a lot of things going on with
my brother passing, that dynamic that I felt from the
southern Utah vibe, and it was just a very interesting
because I didn't really get into like church again until
I was almost I was like in my choice turned twenty,
so I moved back home because I wasn't like doing
I was kind of in the party scene a little bit,
to believe it or not.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
I was kind of like.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Like in the high school years, I was like, you
guys always watch to do these movies, and I want
to go out and have fun with friends and like
go to parties and stuff like that. So I was
kind of like trying to find my spot. And so
because of that and I think of my personality, it
was just kind of like party ish for like the
like three years of my life my later teens to that.
So I wasn't like this proper Mormon girl for those years. Okay,

(32:45):
but I definitely always said the church was true.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
You know. I was one of those, I guess you
could say jack Mormons. And so it was a very
on temple. You know.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
I had several objectives that I wanted to achieve, but
I wasn't really live in that lifestyle. And then I
moved to Texas when I was twenty and my grandma,
who was like this truth even Mormon to this day,
she's she's like, you live with me, you have to
go to church. And I hadn't really been consistently to
church for I think at that point for almost four years,
and so I was like, Okay, well, I guess I

(33:17):
have to go to church because it's like free rent.
So I'm going to church. And she had like spies,
you know, she had spies on me. So she knew
like if I didn't go to church, she would find out.
And so I did go to church, and that very
first Sunday I actually went to the YSA ward and
I met my future husband.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Oh wow, there you go. Hey, that's totally tracking Mormon
style though, come on.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, yeah, it really is. It really is.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
So you met your husband at the first y, the
first it was at the first time you went to
church at that ward.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, in that ward and it was like the it
was a fireside. I showed up like almost an hour late,
and my friend, childhood friend that I had known since
you know, I was a kid, she introduced me to
the guy she liked, which I think is a bad
was a bad move on her end because we kind
of jibed at that moment. And then so yeah, yeah
we met and you know, six months later we were married.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
So wow, there you go, going in swooping in on
your friends, your friend's hot crush.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
There you go, I know, to this day, my bad, Sorry.

Speaker 4 (34:25):
Gillian, there you go.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well at least she gets a shout out on this podcast,
so yeah, you got that. That's your consolation. So you
end up you end up meeting your husband and and
is he fully active, like full on the church or yes.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
So my husband story is very you know, he's pioneer
stock on his mom's side. His dad was a convert
and they're very true Bellian mormous this day. His he
was actually home from early from a mission, so he
was actually he had just gone his mission and you
turned back in two weeks, so he was kind of
like persona non grata and the ysa word in a sense,

(35:05):
like back in two thousand and eight, it's like, well,
you don't come home from your mission like you' tastes
something something you don't do, especially when you come from
the mission field if you come home early, you're kind
of like this, like what are you doing here? Go
back on your mission, or we're not going to date you.
That was the person the kind of vibe back in
two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Oh, I know, I know that all too well. I
went to Buyu, Idaho, and I remember just like trying
to exist, like not even trying to date. I had
my I had my girlfriend at the time who's now
my wife, And I remember people just being like so dismissive, like, oh,
you're a pre MEI like you're for those of you
who aren't in the in the maybe the Mormon culture

(35:48):
in that respect, but a pre mission pre MEI. They're like, oh,
you like can't hang out with us. I'm like, it's
a bunch of dudes, Like like what why can't I
hang out with you?

Speaker 4 (35:58):
Guys?

Speaker 1 (35:59):
It's very interesting seeing and maybe that culture has changed.
Maybe we're we're kind of looking into the past and
and saying our experience. But there was a time where
if you hadn't gone on a mission yet, or especially
if you had come home early, there was a lot
of shame and there was a lot of guilt, uh

(36:20):
you know, associated with that. So you met him right
when he came back. Yeah, as he's kind of wrestling
with this stuff, huh.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, and you know, you know, we went on a date.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
I didn't know he had gone on a mission until
I like, because he was We were dancing Tazza and
he was like, oh, I'm so hot, and he was
like sweaty, and I was like, well, just take off
your extra shirt because I thought yet i'd seen the
white shirt underneath. And I didn't know he had gotten
his garments already because I didn't know, I didn't know
his story and he's like, oh, these are my garments,
Like oh, and I just I was confused about the
because I hadn't dated anyone who had who wasn't like,

(36:54):
who was his age that had gotten his garments and
wasn't on.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
A mission or I had not come back.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
So I was like, oh, okay, So then, you know,
he came back on a mission. We went on our
first date and it was pretty much like I knew
he was my guy after first ten minutes. It was
kind of annoying, to be honest, in my mind at
twenty eight years.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Old, I was like, this is not fair.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
It's not I'm not gonna have as much fun like
I already found the person. It was kind of like
I liked the dating game, so I was like kind
of like bummed but happy that I found him, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
But yeah, I have a snarky question, So why is
it that you like the dating game?

Speaker 4 (37:33):
Is it the free meals? No?

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Actually, I just love I love banter. I do love banter.
I love banter. I think it's the funnest thing. I
think it's I think it's awesome. I love awkward conversations
and awkward moments, like I'm this weird person that likes
to go beyond that and finds a challenge in that.
So even to this day, I have a fun time
with all my friends and like we just like I'm
just that personality. So and I love dating different types

(37:57):
of people and getting to know them, like the guys
that I was a you know, I was like, oh,
this is interesting that that person that was kind of
like a it was like next person. I don't know,
it's like it was weird. Most people don't like dating,
but I kind of had fun with it.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Nice, Well that's that's uh, that's fun. So you you
guys get married six months after meeting you you do that.
What does family life look like for you? Did you
guys stay active in the church. Were there seasons of
maybe not not being in where you full on medium?

Speaker 4 (38:31):
What did that look like?

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (38:33):
So I was always like more zealous than my husband,
believe it or not. Like after I was like done
with my you know, wild teenage years, I was kind
of like, this is my life going all the way in.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
This is like who I am this? You know.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
We took on the callings and my husband was more
of like reserved because of the way he had been
treated after coming back from his mission. So it really
struck him the way the church treated him after his mission.
So he goes never like want to lead Bible study
or do fag like. I was always the one that
was pushing for all that stuff. So both active, though
both active. He was an elder scorn president at sometimes

(39:07):
one point and so at a pretty young age, and
we were just going to school, just so busy, you
know how you know those years are you're just so busy,
like you're going to school, you're having babies, you're fulfilling
your callings, you're paying, you're tithing. You're just like in
this bubble of just go, go go. I mean, you're
always constantly trying to get better every moment. And so

(39:30):
for us, we never really had moments where I never
questioned the church, not once in my life. And I
know that might sound super weird to people, because I
had all these people who I trusted and loved and
you know, these doctors, lawyers in my family who were like,
this is a true church. And so you know, I
never questioned the church. I always like said, this is

(39:50):
a true church. Never looked beyond that.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
I loved history. I was a nerd when I was
a kid.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
I mean, like going it's kind of nerding now, but
like I read the work in the Glory series, you know,
one week, you know, I was like kind of one
of those people that just got really into this history
of jose Smith and bringing me in. So I thought
I knew the history of the church, and so I
could tell you right now, I was one of those
people that would listen to podcasts and all these things
about church history, and so we were. I was very

(40:16):
much in it. And my last two Collins were primary president.
So it was like, you know before that I was
the I mean, I'm just kind of giving you an idea,
not to like, oh, look what I was, but it was.
I was a stake young Woman's camp director for my
stake at I think twenty seven years old that was
doing like a lot of bigger callings, and my husband

(40:37):
was moving that way too, and so we were.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Very much in it.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
I mean we needed our children, our boys after Book
of Mormon profits, that's how That's how deep we were
in Mormonism and how much we believed it was true.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, And I think that gives a really good perspective.
I think a lot of times ex Mormons are kind
of painted with this, well, they were lazy, they you know,
got offended, you know all of those things where you're like, no,
there can be other reasons why people leave. And here

(41:11):
you have a family where Elder Scorn president primary president.
I mean, these are very crucial people in a ward
that help it function, and they're as of right now,
not in the Mormon Church anymore. And I think it's
I think it's really important. I've said I said on

(41:36):
another podcast, not on this one, where I was where
I was a guest, I said, there's going to be
a huge vacuum of leadership at some point. I mean,
like on a Lisa, I look at you, I look
at your husband, like that is leadership that the church
is not going to have in twenty years. And they
need you and your husband to be the you know,

(41:56):
stake ely siety president and the in the state presidency.
They need those people. And so if those people are leaving,
it just it just doesn't really work long term because
they need them and they need them to not be
paid and they need them to you know, work a
part time job for free. They need those people and
and but yeah, I think that's a really important important story.

(42:20):
So where did it all, you know, fully active family?
Where did it all start to kind of unravel on
on as as far as an unravel may not be
the right term, because I think it turns into something
really beautiful, But where did it all start to go
in a different direction?

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Well, okay, so I got to briefly like talk about like,
so as a true truely Mormon, you know, we put
all our eggs in his back skin, like we we
are sold the promise of covenant, promises that we keep
it rec covenant. We're going to be eternal family, a
lot of stuff. And so I have four boys, and
I had a third boy who passed away at three
months old. He was born and he had nick issues

(43:00):
and all these things, and so he went to be
with Jesus, right, and so my eternal family was like
paramount to me. So to put into perspective as a
Truebili Mormon, you have to look at it like you're
doing these things. You believe fully in this gospel, you
fully fully in this covenant path. Everything's there, and so
you're going into that and then all of a sudden,
COVID happens. COVID is probably the catalyst. A lot of

(43:22):
people would say, like why why is it always COVID.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
At the time I was, I.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Was pregnant with my fourth son, and he was a
miracle baby, and I had just I had just set
up and I'm just gonna like it was just the
best bulletin board in primary.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think I've ever sat up in my life. I
had it.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Laminated, I had it like all done up.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
It was like awesome. I was like so excited.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
And then COVID happened, so no one saw it for
like a year almost, and so like during that time period,
we had to move because my husband's school had changed
rotations and so we had to like make some drastic
changes in the family.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
And then I was just you know waiting for March.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know, I think it was March twenty twenty when
COVID was going on, and everyone was waiting, although no,
it's April, I'm sorry, April General Conference, and we were
waiting to like get some guidance from this. Like they
had just actually announced the temple that I lived like
down the street from in southern Texas, and so we
were excited about that, but there was no guidance. It
was a lot of fear in the air regarding COVID,

(44:23):
and rightly so, it was like something that was unknown
at the time.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
People didn't understand it. We didn't understand it.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
It's brand new, you know, stay in the house, all
these things, and so I was, you know, falling direction
of my leaders. But I didn't get that reassurance. That
like that reassurance from my leaders. I really felt fear
from my leaders, and I thought to myself that was
like the first start. It's like, why are these older
men who are in their nineties afraid of passing on?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Like it didn't like I don't think anyone's.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Runching to get into on a motorcycle and driving eighty
miles an hour. I don't think people typically do like
life threatening things. But this is a virus that can outrun.
You can outrun it. It's going to get you at
some point. It's just nature. It's like the flu. You're
gonna get it at one point in your life. And
so I was like, okay, so why are these people

(45:11):
who are these men not giving a reassurance but giving fear,
like not telling us like.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
We know where we're going? Like we don't.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
It was like we hope we know where we're going.
That's always the case of Mormons. Like you ask the
Mormon or an LDS person, I say Mormon, because I
grew up Mormon, where are you going when you die?
And the response is, but I hope I go to heaven.
I hope I have I hope with Jesus, I hope
I go to selestial Kingdom. And so there's never sure,
there's never confidence in the answer, and so I realized, like,

(45:41):
why aren't we having confidence? So that was the beginning,
and then it was the you know, the little little
job that you get, and so okay, I was like
I was very much at that point, like very hungry
for for to know what would happen. And so at
that point I was twenty twenty one. My aunt who's

(46:03):
actually in like my dad's age, she and I were
on the phone, and where she was a true believing
like she was this, she's this, she was this woman
that would take her newborn baby to teach seminary at
five in the morning, like she was one of those
true believing Mormons and that was her seventh baby. Guys,
like one of those people that would do anything for
the church, didn't didn't question it. And when that came

(46:24):
about with the you know what the prophet said, everyone
should do it, and if you didn't do it, you
were like a second class citizen in a way, like
why aren't you trusting the prophet?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Why don't you get it?

Speaker 3 (46:35):
And so I was getting to the point where I
was feeling that like I was. I would be in
a group of women at church and they were like, oh, yeah,
I got mine, I got mine, I got mine, and
I was like and I was like oh, and they
looked at me.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
I was like, oh, I didn't get it, and.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Like women would literally put their mass back on around
me after that comment, after.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
They forgot it.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
So it was like this weird That was the first
moment where if you can imagine like a group of
people running and like in synchronizing steps to a goal,
and then all of a sudden, you's like, see at
the end of the goal, is like there's a cliff,
and you're like, hold on, guys, there's a cliff. And
everyone else is keep on running past you, but there's
only a few people that are like like questioning what's

(47:14):
going on right now. That's how I felt when it
came to that. I was like, why can't I just question?
And why can't I just say no? And so it
was as cult mentality. And I want to say that
not as like a liberal term, but it's very much
group think, okay, if you want to put a word
to it, group think mentality. That made me question why
am I am? I am I getting shunned for not

(47:35):
doing this if I have personal revelation right at What
I thought at the time was like my personal revelation
says not to do this, and so it was very
shocking to me. So that was the beginning of like unraveling.
But it wasn't like I still was I was feeling
betrayed by my church, because that was not betrayed in
a way like they pushed me out of things. But

(47:57):
I couldn't go to the I was actually passing the
Salt Lake Temple Square and from what I understood, I
couldn't go into some of the buildings unless I shown
my COVID card that id COD COVID vaccines and that
was a for a time period that had been happening.
So I was like, like, I feel like this is
just really out of hand. So that was the beginning
of it all. That was the start, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah, And I know that that's a big thing for people.
I was very active in the church, uh you know
at this time as well pretty COVID and during COVID,
I was very active and blessing the sacrament and doing
all those things in my in my home, and I
remember one week every a lot of people that I'm

(48:44):
friends with. This is not a political show. Okay, I
am as centrist as you can be. And my wife
actually gave me a hard time yesterday. She's like, you
are way more liberal on a lot of subjects than
I am. And I said, so, this is not a
political show. But I remember talking with you know, I'm
in the Mormon Church. There are a lot of conservatives,

(49:08):
and I remember how people spoke.

Speaker 4 (49:11):
To the job. We're going to call it the job.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Before before the church told them to do it, and
they were all like that stupid, the government can't control
what I do all this stuff, and then on a dime,
the prophet endorses it, and these same people were the
first people in line the next week to get get

(49:36):
the get the job. And so I just think it's
really important to maybe, you know, bring that to life.
I don't know if that's your same you know, Ana, Lisa,
I don't know if that's your same experience, but that
was what I what I experienced for sure.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Like my my I got calls from my uncles and
who were in the medical field, and they were like,
profit says to do it. It's died, and I was like, well,
I got so frustrated. Kai I was like literally, like
I said, uh, And I even told my bishop this
because I was getting so much pressure from everyone to
get it because the prophet said it was safe that

(50:13):
I was just like, you know, literally, if you put
a line of cocaine in front of me and the jab, like,
I'm gonna do the line of.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Cocaine because I know what that does.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
But like honestly I had never done it before, but
scientifically like it's not gonna it's not gonna cause me
harm because it's been proven over time.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Like it was like the you know whatever, and my.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yeah, it was like it was like and then so
that shut him up because it was so extreme and
the way I was explaining it because I was getting
so much barrage of like people trying to get me
to get it. But I was like, listen, if I
take that line, then I'm getting skinny and I'm gonna
clean my house very well, like I couple hours, so
like it's gonna be awesome.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
And and so I was like this one, I'm not.
I just don't know. I don't know, and I don't
foe come trouble.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
With and so like that was my thinking. But that
kind of like was the point where I was like,
enough is enough. Stop bothering me with this. I'm not
going to do it. Like that's it. And so that
wasn't even it. That actually wasn't it that broke my shelf.
That was the beginning of just like stopping the group
think if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, And there's a big break there if you are
a true believing Mormon, if you were fully active before COVID,
there's just this break. And you talked about earlier on
in this just the busyness of being you know, a
young parent with children, trying to do your callings, trying

(51:41):
to you know, care for a house or work all
of these things. And I think the church likes for
you to be so busy that you can't step back
and say, wait, what like what happened?

Speaker 4 (51:55):
You know?

Speaker 1 (51:56):
They want you to be anxiously engaged in a good cause. Right,
And so there you go, there's the there's a little
Mormon Mormonism for you guys, and so you don't get
this break and like COVID was a break.

Speaker 4 (52:10):
It was like here you go.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
You you now don't have to go to church every Sunday,
and you're calling, you're probably not going to be able
to do it, and you have this time to kind
of think and and the church really doesn't doesn't want that.
I don't think.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
That the results were very good.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
When people can really be be within themselves have time
to catch their breath. I think you see a lot
of millennials. I shouldn't even just say millennials. You see
a lot of people just start to question when they
aren't so busy doing, you know, their job for the

(52:51):
church or they're calling. So so the the the job
was one of those items that you that you didn't
like within it. And then what else was there? I mean,
within within the context of COVID that maybe made you
start to start to question. And I think it's fun,

(53:13):
can I can I throw this out there?

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Our timelines are exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
I think so too.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Actually, when I was listening to your stories before, I
was like, oh, we're about this, We're like the same age.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
I think, yeah, well, we're the same age, but our
timelines in COVID. Yeah, as when we started to maybe
change our thinking and change our mindset around the church.
And we were both very hardcore in the church. So yeah,
just continue on in the story. Sorry, I like to banter,

(53:43):
so go ahead.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
And yeah, yeah, it's good, and so like, yeah, no,
that was one of my bigger things. And then I
was just being like, you know, I had a baby.
I had just he was born early. My last baby
was born early as well. He was a thirty one weeker,
and so I had a lot of focus on him
in that time period. So I was it was a
blessing that I got to focus on my baby, which
was needing me the most at that time, and getting

(54:05):
them fat and chubby like all babies should be.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
And so what I did was basically.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
We moved and then we started to like, you know,
go to church online whatever war we were in, but
mainly it was it was actually like, when it came
down to it, it was dinosaurs that opened me up
to Christianity, to be completely honest, and you're gonna link
why did dinosaurs do that? So, like I was teaching

(54:32):
my children homeschooling at the time, you were living in
my RV full time because my husband was rotating, and
so one day I was just like going, I was
still I was actually a newly called primary president in
my new ward because we had gone back to church.
It was like twenty twenty twenty one. I ended twenty
twenty one, and so I get calling to be a

(54:53):
primary president. I'm doing all these things, but I'm still
like this I've always like in my last primary presidencies,
Like was like I was kind of a weirdo because
I was like, you know what, I saw kind of
the writing on the wall with a lot of kids
that are in the church, they just left the church.
They just went agnostic or atheists or some of them.
Like the statistics in my family out of like the
thirty something grandkids, it was like two or three were

(55:14):
active in the church and as adults. So it was
very like a low statistic on my on that. So
I was like, you know what, like I kind of
want to just focus on Jesus. So that was like
I think a tender mercy that God just kind of
like started to move in my heart to just focus
on Jesus Christ. So I was like the weird primer
president like, Okay, yeah, like see you know articles said, yeah,

(55:34):
yeah it's there, but like let's focus on Jesus. And
so when went I was, I guess because you know,
YouTube listens to you and I a big brother listens
it started to pull up things on YouTube about Jesus
from Christian pastors, and so they started One of them
was about dinosaurs, and I was like, Oh, I guess
it's not harmful because typically, as a true Bob Mormon,

(55:54):
you're not supposed to go outside the prescribed LDS library
to look for any kind of spiritual insight. You're supposed
to use the LDS Library or Gospel Talk for gospel
talks and like conference talks. And so I was like
listening to this one thing called answers in Genesis about dinosaurs,

(56:17):
and for some reason he started talking about COVID because
it was like in that time period and exactly what
I needed to hear from about Jesus and my security
in heaven with God was from this Christian pastor that
I hadn't heard from any of my leaders for the
last two years. And so I was like, why does
this make me feel better listening to this Christian pastor. Yeah,
he was talking about dinosaurs earlier in the Bible and

(56:38):
Genesis and everything, but like, I know He's giving me
these scriptures in the Bible, I can know I'm saved,
I can be with Jesus like, this is amazing.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
And so there was that interesting dynamic right there.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
And then I moved back to Texas because I just
couldn't handle living in where I was living with my husband.
We were like, wait, you want, let's move back home, and.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
So we moved back home.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
And I remember, like I still remember the moment or
like my entire shelf fell apart.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
It was me cleaning the bathroom. I was cleaning the bathroom.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
To my house, and I was listening to the Gospel
Topics Essays because someone had mentioned it. I didn't go
to anti Marmin stuff, guys. I literally just like someone's like,
you would like history, you would like the Gospel Topics Essays.
And I think it was like one of the sisters
from church or something, because she was like a summary teacher.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
I forget who I don't know.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
And then so I was like okay, and I heard
about it and then I clicked on it, and then
I like clicked on Joseph Smith, and I think it
was like the trial of something I like read on
something else and I was listening to something about a
trial in eighteen twenty three, and I was like what,
I never heard of that? And I just like to
click on things like footnotes and go on that way.
And so when I read and I was listening to

(57:44):
it as I'm cleaning, I listened to this part where
Joseph Smith tells this lawyer or this judge that he's
glad he caught him because he had been taking money
from Josiah Stul for two years at the time. And
Josiah Stole's nephew was like, this guy is stealing money
from my uncle. Who's gonna give me the money at
the end of it all when he passes on? So
I want you to stop paying Joseph Smith for buying

(58:06):
for looking for treasure. And so Joseph Smith's argument to
that was his eyes were tired, and he was so
grateful that the judge stopped him. And so this is
Joseph said that at seventeen years old.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
And so I have boys.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
I grew up with plenty of cousins at seventeen year old.
I remember boys being seventeen years old, and if I
was their mother, and I've always his Joseph's mother, I
would go in with my chankla and hit him over
the head and say, you little liar, stop stop taking money.
From people like if you'll get some work but nada,
you know, like good for nothing, Go go work like.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
A real job.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
And so in that moment, like the character of Joseph
Smith just completely fell apart. And then I was like, what,
this can't be true. I've never heard this. And I
kept on listening to all the Gospel tapics essays, and
I did, honestly, to be truthful, I didn't listen to
all of them completely. I just was like, once you
know it's false, it's kind of like for me, it's
like pointless to rehash it over and over again. But

(58:58):
this is the biggest part is like I remember, like
my whole world like when Joe the Smith falls apart,
everything else falls apart, and he's like he's like, he's
not the Jesus crisis in the cornerstone of Mormonism is
Joseph Smith, because once you really look at the whole
doctrine behind Mormonism, it's all Joseph Smith. It's if it
didn't have him, it wouldn't be there. And so when

(59:18):
that fell apart, I had to call my husband, right
and so that conversation was very scary because my husband's
not home with me at that time, He's out in
a different state and I and I don't know what
to tell him, Like, I just don't know what to
say to him, other.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Than I call him.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
I say, hey, this religion is not true. Jose Smith's
a liar, and I just don't believe it anymore. And
he was like, what like his I mean, can you
imagine his reaction? His wife, who was true believing Mormon,
most zealous than anyone else he knew, and it just
it wasn't true. It just came down like a ton

(59:52):
of bricks. I don't know, explain it.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
I think a lot of people who are listening to
this and going through a faith crisis, I don't know
if you have to explain it. I think that they
know in their minds what that moment is like where
they at least for me, I can I can listen
to your story and be like, I know exactly where
I was when I figured out it was all fake

(01:00:20):
and it was all made up.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
And it's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
For people who haven't experienced that it is one of
the most terrifying things because you base your whole life
around this, this religion. The character of Joseph Smith, the
character Brigham Young. You know, these these leaders that we
put on a pedestal our whole lives and look looked
up to praise to the man, right, Yeah, these guys,

(01:00:50):
and when you find out that it's not what you
thought it was, it is absolutely devastating.

Speaker 4 (01:00:58):
It just is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
And you know, I mean here you're telling your story
and you you've had some really hard things that you've
dealt with the passing of a child, your your childhood,
and abuse within that, all of these things, losing of
your brother, right, all these things and you know, a

(01:01:21):
faith crisis on top of that. You know, these are
all really hard things to deal with, you know. In
that So where did it? Where did it take you though?
Where after you had kind of found out it wasn't true?
We know the direction of a lot of people that

(01:01:42):
that come to find out the church isn't true and
that is a path of uh non belief you know
and atheism agnosticism. Where where is it that it took
you after after you kind of came to that resolution.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
So my husband and in that when I called him,
he told me very something that I think that came
from God. Because my husband wasn't type the type to
bring up religion or Jesus or God, and the way
he did, he said, well, just hold on to Jesus,
just hold on. It's like, do you want to believe
in Jesus? I'm like, I was like, I want, I
was like. And so my back history is like I wanted.
I've left engineer Eastern studies and that was my focus.

(01:02:21):
I was actually gonna go to BYU for that, but
I decided not to do at the time. And so
basically my focus was on the historicity of the Bible,
and I knew it to be a historical book. And
I told my husband I wanted to believe in Jesus.
I just didn't know who he was to me in
that moment, because I mean, once it falls apart, it
is the most terrifying thing, you know, But and it

(01:02:44):
isn't because like I had, I've had some very terrifying moments,
like my son, you know, with doctors and you know
a lot of things that I think at my age
was very like grief was not foreign to me, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
It was very there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
It was like another grief, but a different type and
almost to the same level of losing a loved one,
almost to that same level. So yeah, like I think
that I was very much like I didn't know what
I just was. I wasn't Mormon anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
I went back one Sunday, I think another Sunday for
no blessing, and every time I went, I went like
the next Sunday I went over, I just like I
wanted to scream off on my life, like this isn't true, guys,
this isn't true, this is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Not this is not a true church. But I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
I was just sitting there and I was so uncomfortable,
and I think there was only one sister that point
went up to me and just said to me like, nuh.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Are you okay?

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
And I just like I just my face was just
like I guess telling a different story. But I was like, yeah,
I'm fine, But I just like wanted to scream and
yell at her like this isn't true, like this is
not true.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
And so I didn't. I didn't do it obviously at
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
And and and so to this day, I think two
people out of my people that I've known all my
life has really come up and asked me why, Because
the answer is more scarier than anything else, I think
to them, but they but I was leaving that And
then the very next week, my husband's like, by the way,
you know, there's this thing called Trail Life that you know,

(01:04:08):
we want more boys to get into. It's Christian based
boy Scouts. I don't know if you know Trail Life,
but it's like kind of similar to Boy Scouts.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
Yeah, my son was in it for a little bit.
Oh awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great program.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
I mean we we we're still involved in it from
me far away and so we actually had my my
husband gave me this card, or actually it came from
my aunt who gave it to my husband and then
told me about it. I call this number and this
guy named Mark answers the phone and he's like, well,
what church do you go to? Because it's a Christian base.
We kind of need to know what church you go
to if you're a Christian base. I'm like, well, this
is the first time I'm saying this out loud to

(01:04:42):
anyone besides my husband. I was like, I was Mormon
like a week ago.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
But I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
I guess I'm Christian like and he's like, what, Like,
He's just like I think his mouth dropped on the
other land film, like, you know, like he didn't know
what to say. He's like, well, let's meet for a
ca coffee, and I was like okay, Like usually I'm
so like I gotta tell you guys, like I would
sneak coffee every once in a while, like as a Mormon.
I guess I was like deep seated more with those Mormons,

(01:05:11):
like oh, sometimes I just wanted coffee and I just
like looked so good on the menu, so I'll get it,
and i'd you'll feel so bad and guilt trip over
it forever, like I'm not flipping my covenants.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
I'm doing this horrible thing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
But so when he's like, he's like, well, let's go
get coffee, and I was like okay, like let's go
get coffee. And so he sit down and he's like
explaining to us the gospel. I mean that same week.
So God is so gracious and good that he took
me from Mormonism. And people will say like, oh, well,
you went directly into another other cult, But that's just ignorance.
If he really looked at the Bible and read the

(01:05:43):
Bible and just looked into who Jesus was, it's just
like I know a lot of people might come around
and say like, oh, you just went from one cult
to another cult, and that's just I can't tell you.
I think maybe God just looked at me and said, Anna,
you went through so much hardship in your life, you know,
I'm going to put you with me. Like it was
like and I get emotional thinking about it because he

(01:06:07):
didn't have to, but he did. And yeah, it was.
It was in that moment where he kind of moved
me into a community. And I remember going to a
church service on April of sixth, and I remember I
remember getting there. I was I mean, I'm raised kind
of like southern southern Texas, so I was like even

(01:06:30):
if I did, I wasn't happy, I'd smile. And so
I get to this church and one of my first
interactions was an assistant pastor and he's like welcome, and
I was like hi, and I just couldn't really engaged
with him because I was like, I was so mad.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
I was so mad that this is not my church,
that's not my people. Why am I here? You know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
And And it was mad. I was like mad for
a good couple of months. And then I think it
was me just reading the Bible. And then I really
was reading the Bible, like trying to get to know
Jesus as a historical who he was right by his words.
And so when I tell you when I when I
read the Bible again after leaving Mormonism, I don't think

(01:07:13):
I was saved just yet because I was reading the Bible,
and I read it and it was like a new book.
It was a new book to me, Like I was
things in there I had never read before. I was like,
this is not the same. Like, and so we would
talk to pastors and they would just and we would
talk to other people and we were just like, you know,
they were like, you guys are like the Bahreans, because
he'd laughed, like when pastors really got to know us, like,

(01:07:33):
you guys are like the Bareans. You always want to ask,
are you sure? Show me where does it say in
the Bible? Because we know the Bible, Like I knew
the Bible to be historically accurate and have so much
historicity behind it from secular and non secular people and
so like, and so I could trust it to like
show me where you're saying. So I need to verify

(01:07:54):
what you're saying, so that's what they nicknamed us as
the Bahreans couple for a couple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Months, and uh so that's kind of like my start.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
And then I remember the moment when I accepted Jesus
Christ as God and I was like the weight had
lifted and I was saved within I would say, from
leaving the Mormon Mormonism within six months eight months.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
It was like March and then September I was saved,
and then I got baptized and came out of the
closet in December of twenty twenty two.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
There you go. Yeah, and next Mormon style, right, yeah,
there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
It was one of those things my sister posted on
Facebook and I got one phone call and from a
sister that I respected and from the Church of Mormon Church,
and she's like, well why and I was like, I'm
just wanting to follow Jesus. Like she's like, I thought
we were doing that already and I was like, no,
I wasn't. And so it was hard, but it was

(01:08:50):
definitely something that So it's been it's been almost like
it's been going on two and a half years that
have been saved, and I praise God every day. That's
like when when the lottery doesn't even come close to
what it feels like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Yeah, and it's a in your story, you were talking
about reading the Bible and it being different, like totally
different when you take off that Mormon lens of like
reading it through what the prophet tells you it's supposed
to say or what you know Mormon doctrine is when

(01:09:28):
you take off that filter and you just read it
just straight up. I'm going to read this thing. I'm
going to figure out what it's about. It's a totally
different book, and you start to see the contradictions. You
start to see how it really does not line up
with Mormonism. It just it. It might be a tool

(01:09:51):
that the church will cherry pick things from, but it
is not in totality, is not what the Bible is
actually saying. It is what supports and can be a
good argument to support church teachings. And so yeah, I
experienced that too when I read it after coming out

(01:10:13):
of the Mormon Church. I said, what this It says this,
Like I remember it talked about what a good leader
was in the Bible, and it says and they had
one wife.

Speaker 4 (01:10:23):
Yeah, like, oh that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
And then you know, you see all of these things,
or even I guess we'll stay on this marriage strain,
like you have to get married and have this eternal family,
and Paul's like, no, you don't.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Yeah, it completely changes the dynamic of what we're taught
about marriage and family and if it's called to you
to be married and and and then it is, it's
a it's so I think that it makes the world
has become simpler in so many ways because God has
made it so you know, clear and is where what
He wants us to do. And so yeah, that one.

(01:11:00):
I think my aunt has a harder time with eternal marriage.
That it's like, you know, stripped away when it comes
fairy to Christianity that we're married in this life. And
then obviously we don't need marriage the way we see
it as Christians to Jesus. And so I think people
are also like, you know, like you've given up your

(01:11:21):
eternal family. I was like, well, it was never I
never gave up an eternal family God, but I joined
this huge eternal family. But also the eternal family that
I had was limited and it was all on me
and not on Jesus. And so there's so much to
be said with that, but coming from my perspective of
like losing a child, people had said, you lost your son,

(01:11:44):
you know, And so there's things that are heavy when
it comes to Mormonism that we you know, you could
take a one place like I guess you could say
if I had been a faulty Mormon and my son
had passed, it was because of my fault or but
because I was a good more men and I my
son was my sent passed.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
It was a blessing. He was a selectial soul. But
the foot fact of the matter is Jesus gave me
my son, and I got to have him this time period.
I'll have him afterwards. And none of that has to
do with me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
It's just we live in this this fallen world and
that's just how it works out sometimes that we're not
perfect beings.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
And that it's it's it's this different viewpoint.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
But definitely I feel empathy for them who struggle with
that when they like think that they've lost their marriage.
But I'm like, no, I Jesus are our bridegroom for
one like we're his bride, but but we are completely
in this big eternal family that's gotten so much more
bigger than I can imagine.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
Yeah, and the church writes checks they can't cash. Yeah, right,
I mean that's the big thing I could. I could
write on a Lisa check for a million dollars right now,
give it to her. I mean, does that mean that
there's a million dollars if she puts in her bank account. No.
And what's interesting for those of you who have ever

(01:13:04):
written a bad check before, that bad check can also
actually be a detriment to you. If you put that
bad check in your bank account and it flops back.
There are penalties for that. And I think that you know,
a lot of times in the Church people say you're
losing this, you're losing that. Well, because I've cut ties with,

(01:13:25):
you know, all of these man made ideas, whether that's
eternal marriage, whether that's a Book of Mormon, whether that's
fall of the prophet, whatever, you cut ties with those things.
That is a blessing. That is a bad check that
you are not putting in your bank account. And you
are able to be free in in Christ. You're able

(01:13:46):
to be free even if you're an ex Mormon atheist.
You're able to be a little bit more free because
you are not in a system that is bad, right,
I believe that Jesus is what the Mormon Church needs
more of, it's what any non believer needs, and because

(01:14:10):
there is so much healing. Like I look at both
of our stories. I love that you said that you
that you see it as like a tendor mercy of
God that you were able to find Jesus so fast
after leaving the church, that you look at your life
and a lot of the hardship that comes from it

(01:14:33):
and you just feel like that's a I just think
that's beautiful. But I believe in a God that is
still reaching people, like and it doesn't matter if you've
been an atheist for thirty years, that does not matter.
Like God is literally steps away. He is so close

(01:14:56):
for that freedom that you can find in Jesus, Like
he is just so close, and there's so much healing
that comes from that. So I yeah, I just think
that that's that that's beautiful that you were able to
find it. So let's look at the aftermath of all

(01:15:16):
of this. So you say, hey, I'm I'm putting it
all at the feet of Jesus here, And what did
that look like for your family dynamic? Because you're married,
you have four kids, you know, you have this large
extended family. Did what did that look like?

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
Well, my husband was very much like he found he
accepted christ I think a month and a half after
I did, and he had his own journey. I never
pushed it on him and he was just kind of
on his own way. He always leaned more towards Christianity.
Out of the two of us, actually, he was the
one that was more like, you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Know, on the edge.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
And so my son's you know, I had a ten
year old at the time, and an eight year old
and I'm sorry year old, seen year old, and a
three year old, and so my oldest and started to
notice we're going to different church. And he's like, hey, mom,
like and his name is Nephi, Okay, so if I
inspect him, and so yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
There you go hardcore.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
And was he baptized, Yes, he was, he was, yeah,
and so he remembers all of that. And so I
was like, he's like, why are we going to a
different church? Like what's going on? Are we going to
go to our church again? And I was like, baby, Like,
I just said to him, like listen, we're gonna go.
I'm not Mormon anymore. He's like, well why not, mom,
And I was like, well, Joseph Smith lied and he's

(01:16:36):
like what.

Speaker 4 (01:16:37):
There you go.

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
And he's like, yeah, I'm sorry, Boppy, I'm starting to
tell you this, like he lied, and he's like, well, why.

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
Do you do that? He's very analytical, my son, very straightforward.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
And he's like, I'm like, well he wanted you know, power, money, women,
kind of all the same things that most men.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Why were.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
And he's like and he's like he's like, oh well
that's not cool, Like that's not cool.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
My gosh, that's not I'm sorry. Like he's like, oh, well,
what's for lunch? Like I'm hungry, like.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
And so that was kind of like his mentality. And
then my middle son, which honestly I was a little surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
And his name is Amon. And my middle son comes up.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
You know, he says to me, he's like, mom, Like
he gets emotional. He's like, Mom, like you're not warmon anymore.
I'm like no, he's like, and I'm like, why are
you crying? He's like, well, I don't want to be
anything you're not. And so I was like, listen, babe,
like you can you can be Mormon if you want
like I was like at that time, just I was like,
just don't belong to the Church of Satan, Like, if
you belong to the Church of Satan, like I have.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
A problem with that, okay. So and so he's like okay.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
And then later on that night he comes to my
room and he's very he starts to cry. He starts
to cry to me. My middle son's more sensitive. He says, mom,
So like, am I going to go to Heaven?

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Then?

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
And I was like, yeah, baby, do you believe in Jesus?
And I explained who Jesus was. He's like, yeah, Mom,
I I believe in Jesus. And so he's like, so what,
I don't have to do everything, Like I don't have
to do something like I don't have to be so
good and like not make a mistake. And so he
was already feeling religious scrupulosity, right, he was already feeling
the pressure of doing all these things that he was
gonna get baptized the next year. He was gonna have

(01:18:14):
to be like and I was like, listen, God wants
you to do those things. You're gonna mess up, everyone's
going to mess up, but you're gonna be with him.
In heaven for sure. So he felt like he got emotional,
he got he actually started sobbing. And so I realized
in that moment my son, who was like seven, was
starting to feel the pressure of this priesthood pressure and
he hated he hated the talk of future missions. He

(01:18:36):
did not like the idea of it. He was like, Mom,
I don't want to go. I don't want to do it.
Like he was already at seven years old, just not wanting.
He was already kicking against it. And so that to
me was like a big thing. And my husband and
me we walked into it like we went to get
We got baptized. My oldest son recently got baptized the
almost a couple of months ago on his choice, and

(01:18:57):
I think the scripture he quote it was he would
not be ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus. So I
was just so proud that he made that decision on
his own, because we, you know, as Christians, we don't
push it on our children. We explained to them the Bible,
and they have come to Christ, you know, obviously. And
so it's been a lot of good things on immediate family,
now on my extended found and my my mom got saved,

(01:19:18):
my sister got saved, my other sister got saved, her
husband got saved, my dad got saved. And this all
happened in the last year and a half, and now
on my extended side of my family, I had a
lot of mixed back reactions, from anger to dismissiveness to
laughing to just you know, just you know, because you're

(01:19:40):
coming from a Hispanic point of view as well, like
you're it doesn't matter if you're sixty years old, if
you're younger, then they're going to treat you like you're twelve.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
It's this Hispanic kind of vibe.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
And so that's kind of the reaction I got was like,
you silly girl, you're just like your dad going off
on some crazy tangent. I'm like, it's just Jesus. Guys
like look at Jesus, like look at him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Like I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
Talking about extra wise, extra anything, like, just look at Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
And that's too crazy for them.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
So that's been something very unique, and I would say
trying time to navigate with extended family, yeah I had
I had some very interesting experiences of that, but.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that can be really really tough. Two
But you have seen really awesome results as like what
I would consider to be revival within your family of people.
And sorry, in the ex Mormon world, revival means like

(01:20:43):
huge change that's just happening like overnight. I am a
very pro revival person, which means I love it when.

Speaker 4 (01:20:56):
I'm trying to think of even how to explain this when.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
You just know that the spirit of God is moving
and I'll be somewhat crazy charismatic here. I have been
in church services where you would think that, like God
is literally in the room, people are moving, and they
would call it just like it could only be God.

(01:21:21):
They would say it's maybe a sovereign move of God.
And you talk about in a year and a half
so much of your family being in this new relationship
with Jesus, And I think about revival like I think
about this like it can only be God at some point. Right,

(01:21:45):
It's wild to me to think that you have had
such such a or that the spirit of the Lord
has had such an impact, you know, on your family.
What do you think that is? I think for a
lot of maybe x Rormans who are Christians, they're hopeful
and they're I am with you on this on Alisha. Yeah,

(01:22:08):
a Lisa, I am. I'm hopeful that there are people
out there in my family, friends of mine, whatever, that
are going to know the same Jesus that I know
what speak to that a little bit of I mean,
what is the secret is.

Speaker 4 (01:22:26):
The how you tell us about about it?

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
I mean, I'm I'm I'm the type.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
Like like I said, I love awkward moments in conversations.
I think that the best way to grow into personality
and in interpersonal relationships is to talk about the difficult
things but in a way that we don't disrespect each
other and that we love each other at the end
of it all, like if see Peter says, content for
the faith, but have patience and loving and kindness and
be tender hearted.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
To each other.

Speaker 3 (01:22:54):
And so like I think about my family, my dad specifically,
like for example, he went from zach extreme to being
saved in Jesus alone and believing that the Word is
true and faithful. I mean, that's that's.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
A huge thing. That's only God can do that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
But when I can specifically remember this moment where my
dad was like, no, Jesus is this and we are
gods in utero and dah da da da and he
was found in all the things that Mormonism say. And
I was like, Dad, if you do not like go
of that, you might you're going to go to hell.
And he just like when I said that, I didn't
want to say it to my dad, but like the
way I said it was just like it looked like
I hit him physically because he took like a steps

(01:23:31):
back from me because I didn't want to like condemn him,
but with the what he was believing was going to
condemn him by Jesus and God's standard in the biblical standard,
and so and he that took him like a year
after that conversation, we didn't talk about it. And then
the next time I talked to him about it, he's
crying to me about how accepted Jesus with the Bible

(01:23:51):
and that he is God because he was reading the
Bible the entire time. And and so having those conversations
where like, yes, it's strained, is like it's just like
so uncomfortable, like you're gonna lose, like what Jesus says
in Matthew right, You're gonna lose like Frid like mother
against Father like done or against what mother like there
isn't any times where it's so painful, like it's just

(01:24:12):
so painful, but you're you have to say, like, listen,
I cannot agree with you in this statement.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
I cannot say this is true. This just happened.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
Like I had a I had an interesting conversation. I
had this I was getting my padic, you're done, and
I don't know why in this salon, but I guess
getting my peddic, you're done, this woman starts talking to
me about Jesus, like, well, we start talking about thirty minutes,
and then somehow it came out Christianity.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
And then I and I and I had this.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
Awkward moment where this woman's massage in my feet and
she's like because she came from a Catholic background, and
she's like and she's like, I just don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
And I was like, well, I have a.

Speaker 3 (01:24:45):
Question, and I know the question is the most awkward
question in the world, but I was like, do we
do you know where you're going when you die? Like,
do you know where you're going? And she's like, I don't.
I don't know, probably go to Hell because I'm a
bad person. I just know Jesus doesn't love me, Like
and so I was like, no, I can. We can
go through the world. And like, so off the top
of my head, We're start talking about scriptures. I was like,
do you accept do you know who Jesus is? And

(01:25:07):
we went over to Jesus and she accepted Jesus Christ
as she's finishing my pedicure and she's crying and she's
just like it. And so like there's moments where these
awkward things have to happen where you have to kind
of go past that and just say Jesus, I trust you,
and sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
People will not accept it, and you just move on.

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
We're just messengers, so we're like we're literally taking the
message and just moving it along and we're just doing
that because that's what Jesus calls us to do. And
so like that's one instance, and then you know, I'll
have people try to have you agree to a falsity
that you know, like my my salon guy was coloring
my hair the other day, was like, no, I know
we are gods because God made us and I was like, no,

(01:25:45):
we're not gods. Like and he's cutting my hair. Guys,
this is like serious damage could happen and be afflicted
in my hair on my body right now. And so
like I had to say, I said to him, like
I'm sorry, but no, we are not gods and there's
only one God. And so he's like oh, and he
just kind of like cut quiet and just like he's like, well,

(01:26:06):
you know, I don't know. I don't really read the Bible.
It's like, well, I would encourage you. I said, to
read start with John so you understand who God is.
And so that's when you have those like you have
to kind of get past that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
If that makes sense. I don't know if that helps.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
Yeah, I just think being and it can be really
hard and maybe will we'll temper this a little bit
where you have to know. Maybe I think that with
each hard conversation you have to know where you are
at in your spiritual walk. Like I believe a lot
of talking to people is about capacity, and sometimes you

(01:26:41):
really have that capacity to evangelize or you really have
that capacity to even have a conversation with someone. And
so I will say, like what I love on Lisa
about you is that you are on fire for the Lord,
and I think that's really contagious. I think people probably
who come in contact with you can can you know,

(01:27:04):
experience that. I'm sure there's been ebbs and flows in that,
you know, they're definitely I can speak for myself, maybe
I shouldn't speak for you. I like to be very,
you know, evangelical very. And what that means for those
of you out there is I just like to spread
my faith.

Speaker 4 (01:27:24):
Think of it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:25):
If you're from a Mormon perspective, every Christian a missionary
how about that? So that's all it means is I'm
very missionary oriented, okay, And but I think it has
to do with capacity. There was a time early in
my walk where talking about religion made me very angry.

(01:27:50):
We're talking about even my wife and kids going to
a Christian church before I was saved, made me very angry,
all of those things. And so it's really about capacity.
And so I want to throw that little caveat out there,
like if you if if you have that capacity to
kind of have that banter, have that back and forth,

(01:28:11):
or maybe you don't and you're just acting in faith
and you're saying, God, just show me where where I
have to go with this. I think it's I think
it's really important to recognize that with it within yourself
and and do that on Alisa you are. You are great?
What on a Lisa? Oh my gosh, you guys, if
you're counting at home, I'm trying so hard.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
I you said it right, on Alisa, Yeah, you said
it right.

Speaker 4 (01:28:35):
Okay, I'm just not.

Speaker 3 (01:28:37):
It's actually it's like you put it together on a
Liisa means analyze.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
Really, yeah, Alisa? Yeah, okay. So our names both have
some fun fun thing. I am Malachi, which means which
means message from the Lord, which is really fun. That
an odd that I have a podcast, which hey, there
you go.

Speaker 2 (01:29:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
So I like to give people just a moment where
you can address kind of the X Mormon community, the
X Mormon Christian community and just give like your final point,
Like I like to give the floor to people for
them to say whatever is is on their mind and
whatever they think would be impactful. And so I just

(01:29:26):
wanted to give you the last part of this as
we kind of finish up, you know, this interview and
come on on, Lisa is awesome. I know that I
would love to have her back on in some capacity
because she is.

Speaker 4 (01:29:42):
She is great. So what what do you have? What
would you say to people?

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):
Like what would be what would be something that a
message of hope for you know that X Mormon group.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Yeah, I definitely think.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
So I wrote a down just because, like I was
like thinking about like what I could kind of share
with y'all. And usually I just talk off the cuff,
but usually I like to like kind of really focus
on this because I think this is the biggest jump
right here. So son I started off for here it says,
I know it may seem crazy or scary or even

(01:30:20):
slate to ask this question, but what are the reality?
What if the reality of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the
One True God, was not the same.

Speaker 2 (01:30:27):
Jesus we were taught.

Speaker 3 (01:30:29):
If you choose to dismiss that possibility, that is your decision. However,
I encourage you to start reading by the Gospel of John,
written by the beloved Disciple. Discover what he says about Jesus,
then continue reading.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Where can we find Jesus? We look at the Bible.

Speaker 3 (01:30:44):
At the Bible this time tests it historically verified document
at this most basic secular level. This book spans over
sixteen hundred years, three continents. We let three different languages,
generations of prophecy, all pointing to the fullness that Jesus
brings the simple yet profound truth is with out Jesus,
none of it's possible. Even if you're not ready, it
doesn't change the fact that every person will have a

(01:31:06):
moment with God at the Cross. That moment will come
one day, and I hope and pray when it does.
You take the time to ask the most important question
of the world, not whether the Church is true, but
rather who is Jesus to me? And can I trust him?
As Jesus himself said, I am the Way, the Truth,
and the life. No one comes to the Father except
through me. A powerful tie to this is also in

(01:31:29):
John first John five point thirteen, which reinforces the assurance
of eternal life through Jesus Christ. I write these things
to you that who believe in the name of the
Son of God, that you may know that you have
eternal life. And so with that, I just encourage everyone
to look at Jesus Christ and a point of view
that if you haven't looked at him as like what

(01:31:49):
the Church put us, I mean, it's like giving us
a different version of him. I would say, definitely look
at Jesus Christ. Give him a chance, because he died
for you. And so if you're not there yet that's okay.
Everyone has a walk with Christ, like I said, and
I just fully fully respect everyone's opinion on how they
come to the Cross, but at the same time, it's

(01:32:09):
it's inevitable, and so I just want to share it, Like,
thank you so much Kai for having me, because I
really appreciate sharing my story and I really carried other
people's stories and that's why I did agree to do this,
because I think I shared it in Spanish because I
speak butchered Spanish, but I speak Spanish and I wanted
to share in English, in my native tongue right when

(01:32:30):
I speak, that's my first language. And so I'm just
so appreciative the platform because I can share it with
at least, like you said, one person, and that's that's
my main goal. And so I just I'm grateful for
that and God bless everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:32:42):
So yeah, definitely, I'm not going to add too much
to this because an A Lisa, that was beautiful.

Speaker 4 (01:32:51):
It really is through Jesus, it really is. And strip back.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
All the stuff, strip back all the all the Mormons stuff,
focus on Jesus and there is so much hope and
healing that comes from that. All right, we have this
was great. This was really really good. Share it with
some friends if you if you listen to this, share
it you know and we really I love you guys.

(01:33:19):
Reach out to me through email if you'd like, at
Jesus for Mormons at gmail dot com. I love receiving those.
And thanks a lot on Lisa for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:33:30):
Thank you so much.

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