March 5, 2025 • 41 mins
This episode of Jesus for Mormons explores the “Ex-Mormon Curse” and how negative statements from Mormon leaders create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Kai and Di discuss the Pygmalion Effect, showing how ex-Mormons often feel isolated and expect hardship. Kai shares how he was passed over for a head coaching job shortly after leaving the Mormon Church. At first, he questioned if his faith played a role, but later saw it as a blessing, realizing God's plan was greater. The speakers compare leaving Mormonism to escaping an abusive relationship—freedom comes when one stops looking back. They emphasize the importance of trusting God, finding community, and seeking truth. The episode closes with a young adult’s story, highlighting the need for support and resources.
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Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, and welcome to this episode of Jesus for Mormons.
I am joined by my co host die Biels. Die,
I got a question for you. Okay, have you ever
had someone speak death over your life?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
You want me to answer that? Now? Yes, I'll just
say yes. But let's see how you take that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
All right, Well, today we are talking about the ex
Mormon curse and we are going to unravel this a
little bit. We're gonna explain what the ex Mormon curse is.
But Die, we can't continue on. We have to hear
(00:46):
when is a moment that someone spoke death over your life?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, the first thing that popped in my head is
gonna make my dad sound so mean, But he was
a teenager when he had me, so he was still young.
But I remember one of my earliest memories as a
child is playing with my friends out in the yard
and my dad pulling me aside and saying, you can't
(01:12):
be so bossy, or you're gonna grow up and no
one will ever want to be your friend, and that
is no one. It stuck with me from when I
think it was four when he said that to me,
or five, and I still remember it. And then when
I had my own daughter, and she also has a
proclivity to like to be in charge. I decided that
(01:33):
I would speak life over her and tell her always
that she had strong leadership potential, not that she was
bossy and would never have friends.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well there you go. Well, I think that's a really
good intro into our episode today where we are talking
about the ex Mormon curse, and so I wanted to
get into this a little bit. And I believe there
is actually this Pigmalion effect to those who leave the
(02:05):
Mormon Church, and let's talk about what that is. I know,
here's kind of trying to sound smarter.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like psychology today, a subscription or something.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, there we go. But the Pygmalion effect, or as
a lot of us know it as the self fulfilling prophecy,
so our belief and there's this. If you're watching this
as opposed to listening to it, you can kind of
follow along with this cycle that people find themselves in.
(02:35):
But there's a diagram here, and it says, our belief
about others influence our actions towards others, and those actions
towards others impact others beliefs about themselves. Okay, others beliefs
about themselves cause others actions towards us, and others actions
(02:59):
towards us reinforce our beliefs about others. So you can
see this cycle that happens. There was a study that
was done by psychologists Robert Rosenthal and Leonor Jacobson about this.
And Pygmalion is actually a Greek It's a Greek myth
(03:21):
about a sculptor who fell in love with this beautiful
statue and he loved the statue so much that he
created that it actually came to life. Right, So he
loves this thing. Maybe he's speaking it into life and
it gains life. And I think there's this Pygmalion effect
(03:46):
or self fulfilling prophecy that exists when someone leaves the
Mormon Church. And it's very subtle, but I think a
lot of us know when we hear, even when we
hear the term apostate, which I would consider myself to
be in that realm, somebody who left, I'll give this
(04:10):
one the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Saints way to get it in yep.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But someone who leaves the Mormon Church, they have this
idea in their mind that they're an apostate that they
have left the true religion and that doesn't that is
also not shied away from in church leadership. We have
(04:37):
president who is President of the Korm of the Twelve Apostles,
in his talk which this was a controversial talk. Oh
I didn't put the title on it, but this is
a controversial talk by Boyd Kate Packer, and he says,
remember when you see the bitter apostate. For those of
(04:58):
you who can't see the audio or the video, that's
pulling it myself. Maybe I shouldn't interrupt this. Okay, you
can't see, but it says, remembered the bitter apostate. You
do not see only the absence of light. You also
see the presence of darkness.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Did you also say the next sentence, do not spread
disease germs?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Do not spread disease germs?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Oh no, Kai anyway, wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So you left the Church of Jesus Christ with Latter
day Saints, you are now not just an apostate, but
a bitter apostle full of the presence of darkness, and
people should not associate with you because you spread the germs.
Is that how I'm understanding this?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
That is what he is saying here.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, so that you're so when you leave the church,
you are blackbald? Is it still actively participated in or proclaimed?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
They tried to dial it back recently by saying, be kind.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
But in a game while you're trying not to catch
the germs from the bitter apostates.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, but in a very Mormon way, they did not
address this quote. Right, So it's just like we're gonna
say something, but let's not like address like what was
Boyd K. Packer actually saying. Right, Gosh, if I could
stop saying the k Boyd Boyd Packer said this man
(06:43):
that feels so unnatural because it's always Boyd Elder Boyd K. Packer.
But he says, remember when you see the bitter apostate,
he's like speaking this into existence. Remember when you see
that bitter apos anyone who leaves the church, you not
(07:04):
only see the absence of light, okay, whatever that means,
but you also see the presence of darkness. Do not
the Yeah, do not catch the flu from these people.
The evils wear.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
A mask and don't catch COVID.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, there you go social distance from those people. All right,
Let's see if brig him young, my four time great grandfather.
Let's see if he sees any differently, have you enjoyed
yourself since resigning Mormonism? So this is him speaking. He's
(07:47):
he's talking about He's actually I believe he's talking about
Lyman Johnson leaving the church, which is a church history trail.
You can go down now, speak truth and tell us
as it is. Have you experienced joy and happiness since
leaving the Kingdom of God? Come now, don't lie, brothers answered?
(08:13):
So this is Lyman Johnson is who he's talking about,
and this is how he responded, I have not enjoyed
one day's peace since I left the church. This is
the declaration of the apostates today when they tell the
truth about it, look at their countenances. Is their happiness
(08:37):
depicted there? No, it is sorrow. They chose error instead
of truth, They love darkness rather than light, and the
end thereof to use scriptural language is death.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I find it interesting that a lot of the early
Mormon forefathers or whatever you call them, their language is
so similar to Scripture. It's interesting to me, like how,
I don't know. Maybe that's supposed to make you believe
it more.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I don't know, well, you've got to leverage whatever you can, right,
and speaking in a certain way gives you this authority,
as they would call it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
But I think it's interesting to say that here you are,
you have these leaders of the Mormon Church speaking something
over those who leave. Speaking this they would see as prophecy.
I would say it as self fulfilling. Unfortunately, a self
(09:50):
fulfilling prophecy that a lot of people experience. And then
when they go back to check themselves, they say, well,
I'm supposed to experience this, right if we go others
actions towards us reinforce our beliefs about others, and those
influence our actions. Os and the Pygmalion effect is something
(10:18):
that really hurts them that they've been told by these leaders.
I'm going to put that in air quotes and prophets
of God, also in air quotes, that they're supposed to
experience this bitterness and this sadness and this absence of light.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Right. Well, and interestingly, this Brigham Young quote is obviously
missing context, which I know is what you're getting at,
because what if the context is, well, everyone that that
guy knew has now turned against him, So yes, he
is not happy or he has had no peace, but
(11:01):
that's just missing the context of why does he have
no peace? So they want the idea is that you
believe it's because he left the Mormon Church.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah. Yeah, and so it makes it even worse, right
for people, Let's say you grew up in a community
where you built your whole life around the Mormon Church, right,
all of your contacts, all of your people, and they
kind of say, oh, I don't want to get that
disease from kai, and so they turn against you, right,
(11:34):
and they don't want to have or I think this
is more common. People who leave the church feel that
those at the church don't want anything to do with them.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah. OK, and maybe you're not invited to all the
things you used to be invited to, And maybe there's
a little bit of fairness to that because maybe they
have church context to them, and the assumption is you
wouldn't want anything to do with that. But if your
kids stop being invited to birthday parties and you're not
invited to the you know, the family get together or
(12:07):
the neighborhood get together, yeah, of course you'd you'd have
a lot of feelings that go with that, that that
you become a self fulfilling propsy, just like you said.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes. Yeah, And I think at some point you may
even begin to believe the lie a little bit. Yeah,
you may begin to say, oh, maybe this is because
I left the church. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Then you add in like your car breaks down and
your water heater fails, and you're like, huh, I'm cursed
because I left the church.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, we're going to get into that diet. Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I actually had to look up these timelines to find
out and they are really scarily close to each other,
and it really it kind of it's it's interesting to
look back and put these together. I'm going to tell
a story about a dream that I had, and not
a physical dream, but just an aspiration I had at
(13:10):
fifteen years old, and it was to be the head
wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High School. Now, for those
of you who don't know, which is probably ninety nine
point ninety ninety nine percent of the population Lake Stephens
High School, they had eleven team state championships, forty one
(13:31):
individual state champions I was one of them. I won
a state title for Lake Stevens. It was my dream
to be the head wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High
School at fifteen years old. I remember wrestling in Idaho
and I am an anxious person. So this was probably
at one or two in the morning. I was doing
(13:53):
the math back on how old the head wrestling coach
was at Lake Stephens at Barnes, and I was like,
you know, I will be in my mid thirties probably
when he retires, and I would love that job. I
would love to take over for him. You fast forward
(14:15):
to me being in my mid thirties. I get a
call from his son and he says, Kai, me and
my dad have been talking about it, you are the
right person to take over the wrestling program at Lake Stevens.
So these are kind of the stars aligning, right. I'm
very happy about this. Now, let's look at where I
(14:37):
am in the story. I had left the Mormon Church.
At this point, I am coaching like crazy. I mean,
I am throwing myself at coaching as a way to
maybe not think about, you know, some of the hardship
of leaving. I'm trying to distract myself. So I am
(14:58):
fully involved with Lake Stevens wrestling. I'm there at every
practice doing everything you know that needs to happen. They say, Kai,
you are the right person for the job. I start
working with his dad. His dad starts kind of coaching
me on what he does. I develop practice plans, and
I've always developed Okay, you guys, let's just get let's
(15:22):
just talk about the elephant in the room. I'm a psycho,
Okay when it comes to wrestling. I was very, very crazy.
I wasn't planning on doing this, but hold on one.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Second day, Okay, oh a prop.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
This is every wrestling plan I've ever done as a coach.
So like you can, I can go back to this
practice plan and show you everything I've ever done as
far as coaching. These are some kids that I coached.
And anyways, I'm very I take coaching very seriously. And
(16:00):
so they had asked me, kind of gave me the nod,
and I thought, gosh, this coach who has been here,
he's been a coach for thirty five years, but probably
thirty years at Lake Stevens. Wow, he wants me to
be the next guy. And I would think this would
kind of give me, you know, choe in to be
(16:21):
this guy. So it comes around I'm going to share
the screen here and he ends up retiring. So, for
those of you who are maybe listening to this audio,
it says in this article, it says coaching legend Lake Stephens,
Brent Barnes leaves legacy of success and innovation. And this
(16:45):
was the article about him retiring from his position. So
I am like all on board. All the assistant coaches
who were at Lake Stephens High School, they were all like, Ki,
we'd love for you to be the coach. I am
all in, okay, And if you know me, when I
(17:05):
go all in, I don't casually go all in. I
am fully engrossed.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
In this Kamikazi Kai.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Oh. My wife is just like Kai, you do not
have to go so hardcore on everything.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
She's a good balance to you.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Not true, I gotta go go really heavy. So he
ends up retiring. I end up interviewing for the job.
As far as I know, there are two applicants, okay,
me and another friend of mine, someone that you know
I definitely had associations with, didn't graduate from from the
(17:48):
same school, wasn't coached as a wrestler on a coach Barnes,
but had been on the coaching staff previously. I like
this guy. I'm not bagging on this guy. Okay, we
both interview for the job and we kind of leave
it there. For those of you who do job interviews,
(18:08):
there's usually a pretty big lag between when you interview
for the job there can be, and when you actually
get the position. So I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm still
coaching a ton. We go through a whole middle school
season where I'm the head coach. We come to this
(18:29):
point where I get a call where I have where
I had not been chosen as the head wrestling coach
of Lake Stevens. I came in second place out of
two people.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
You had a fifty to fifty chance.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I had a fifty to fifty chance. And it's
our work. Now, I think what's interesting about this and
how this ties into this whole. I went back and
I looked at the dates on this story just to
make sure. On April seventeenth of twenty twenty two, I
(19:13):
gave my life to christ. I laid it all down.
I said, Jesus, I just want to follow you for
the rest of my life and be a follower. Three
weeks later, I get told I did not get the
coaching job. Right, And there is this idea that you
(19:37):
didn't get the coaching job because you left the Mormon Church.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
How fast did it take you to come to that
have that thought pop in your head?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Not long? Okay, right, this idea that there is no
light that's going to happen, that I am just this
angry and bitter apostate, spreading dry, spreading germs. Maybe this
is a way to keep me away from other people,
(20:11):
so I couldn't spread that on kids who I'm trying
to coach. There was this very like dark time where
I'm super upset and I'm super disappointed that I didn't
get what i wanted, something I look forward to, I
don't know, twenty years, eighteen years, seventeen years, this getting
(20:33):
this coaching job, right, And I think that that can
creep back in. And that's why, really the title of
this is the ex Mormon curse. Right. You were kind
of given this this, Hey, this is what your life
is going to look like outside of the church, and
(20:54):
then when something bad does happen, you say, well, there
you go, yeah there there.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
My My thinking on this is the best lies always
have some truth in them, and so we automatic I
there is some truth to the fact that without Jesus
our life is darker, lacking peace. But certainly the truth
(21:33):
is not if you're struggling, ever, it's because you're not
wholeheartedly serving God. That that's just not the truth. We're
not guaranteed an easy road, but there there is some
some truth in there, and that is that's a that's
tricky to navigate that, it's it's very controlling to put
that out there. And then anytime people have something go wrong,
(21:55):
human nature is to ask, why is this happening to me?
Is God mad at me? Did I do something wrong?
And if you did just do something that a group
of people that you used to align with think is wrong,
it would be hard to not immediately go to, well,
I deserved this, this is what they warned me of.
That's how you How did you? What did you do
from there? How'd you navigate your way through that?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I would say I was pretty I'm gonna edit this.
I was pretty upset, let's just put it that way.
But I also had this calm assurance that I felt
that I was on the right track and this was
super disappointing. I'm not gonna downplay that at all and say, well,
(22:41):
I had Jesus in my heart and it was just all, Okay, No,
I was very disappointed. It's just I'm just gonna put
that out there. It was very very disappointed, and it
made me second guess some things. But I also die
in the same set that I was hardcore about coaching,
(23:03):
was the same sense that I didn't just halfheartedly give
my life to Christ r. Yeah, these things are. I
was intentional and planning and methodical, and I said, these
are the terms if I Jesus, you are the captain
(23:24):
of my ship for the rest of my life. And
I saw this negative thing happening, and I kind of
was mourning a little bit and upset about it. But
at the same time, God, this is in your hands,
and I'm handing this whole thing over to you.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You're still you were anchored to something bigger than this event.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And I think in
that way, me, you know, becoming saved and giving my
life over to Jesus, I think was a really positive
thing and something that kind of helped me navigate this
really hard situation. I think it's great looking back hindsight
(24:11):
that I can see how close these dates were because
I remember them being like right on top of each other.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Oh, they pretty much are pretty close.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah. Yeah, they are very very close to close to
each other. And so I kind of wanted to talk
a little bit about Fast forward to now right, fast
forward to the present day. And my wife and I
on Saturday are kind of sitting and where we are
(24:43):
sitting on I'm not trying to be you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Know or whatever. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
This is the middle of this is the middle of winter.
I am sitting on the most beautiful beach in the world.
No one is around us. I'm sitting on a beach chair.
Just woke up from a nap underneath a tree, right,
I mean, it is the most ideal setting you could
possibly ask for. Right, I wake up? My wife and
(25:14):
I I talked to the state wrestling tournament in Washington State.
Just happened last weekend or the weekend before. And I'm
talking to my wife about coaching, and she said, Hi,
would any of this happened if you had gotten the
head coaching job at Lake Stephen's High School? And I mean,
(25:38):
I'm sitting with this picturesque view right celebrating my one
year old's birthday. He's crawling on the beach looking out
beautiful beach. Got my two kids, trying to fish over
on the side my beautiful wife, which the two kids
and wife would have still been there, but not this setting.
(26:01):
And she says, well, would what would our life had
look like if you had gotten that job? I said,
there is no way. I mean, I would have been
anchored to that wrestling program for the rest of my life.
There's no way I would have ventured out into anything else.
(26:24):
And I just I look at it as such a
blessing now, right, that I didn't get that coaching job. Yeah,
just like such a blessing, this thing that I thought
was such a curse. And I was so upset and
so annoyed by but at the same time I had
(26:46):
this assurance from God that hey, God, you are the
captain of my ship. You are the one who is
guiding everything. I'm putting my trust in you. Three weeks
in feeling a little bit not so happy about that,
(27:06):
but you know what, I'm just I handed this all
over to you, and you are the one who is
who is guiding this. And then and then to get
this perspective three years later, it's just awesome. Yeah, it's
just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I like that. You said something a little bit ago
you said you were second guessing, so you gave your
life to Jesus. You made this declaration of being all in.
You're a very all in person, and then you have
this big disappointment and you second guess. And I just
that struck me because I think second guessing gets a
(27:48):
bad rap because it it sounds doubtful, but yet second
guessing helps us go. I mean, if I put it
in construction terms, which should be you doing that, not me.
But you know, if you build something and then you
have a moment where you're like, wait, did I set
that foundation correctly? Or you second guess and you go
(28:09):
back and check and you find that it is in
fact sturdy to build on. I feel like that that
has a healthy connotation to it. So three weeks in,
when you could easily be thrown from this, you know,
new choice for your life, you went back and checked
and found that it was it was solid to build
your life on, and it has proven to be so yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, and then we even look at three four years
later and looking back on what the Lord's done, I
mean it's amazing, right, I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Out at this just built something beautiful.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah, this ideal thing, and I'm I'm just so grateful
for that. There's a few verses that, oh, here's this, Oh,
come on, you guys ready for this. Here's a picture
from my little baby first yeah, first year. Look at him,
this beautiful baby. Walking on the baby was not part
(29:10):
of the plan. The baby was after being saved and saying, okay,
what should we do? And I'm going to do an
episode on that. But and then to the left is
us getting on the plane on our first flight over
to Hawaii and moving over here. And so I don't know,
I just look at like what the Lord's done, and
(29:33):
I'm just like so happy with those results. It was
not something that I orchestrated. Me orchestrating things is me
being the head wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High School, right,
That is me planning and scheming and trying to get
where I want to be and what I've dreamed of doing.
(29:56):
And you know, the Lord really guided me in this,
in this other direction that is so fulfilling and so beautiful.
I want to get back to this idea of this
ex Mormon curse and I think that it's really cool
that when you hear these maybe psychological phenomenons and then
(30:22):
you see how in God's word, you know, they kind
of front run these ideas. You know, God, God kind
of has has maybe more than these two psychologists, and
he's said so. In Galatians six, it says, do not
be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatever one sows, he
(30:44):
will also reap. For the one who sows his own
flesh will also reap corruption. But the one who sows
the spirit will from this from the spirit reap eternal life.
Let us not grow and doing good for induce season.
We will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
(31:08):
So you know, I had kind of sown this seed,
and you know, maybe when it was starting to come up,
I wondered if it was actually going to come up right, Okay,
me being fully transparent and honest. I think this is
(31:29):
also really important when we read these quotes from previous
prophets and apostles that come in where we think about
how we should view ourselves. When you think about Elder
Packer saying that distance yourself from ex Mormons because they are,
(31:52):
you know, have only darkness inside them, I think it's
important to keep in mind that in Proverbs eighteen, it
says that the tongue can bring death or life, and
those who love to talk will reap the consequences. So
here I envision these speakers for the Mormon Church bringing
(32:17):
death to those who have left right and creating this
self fulfilling prophecy for them for those who have left.
So this is the big question. When does leaving the
Mormon Church become a curse? And I put curse in
(32:43):
quotation marks all right, I believe that when leaving the
Mormon Church, when it becomes a curse is when you
look in the rear view mirror and you say, the
Church was right about me, and my life is meant
(33:07):
to be full of darkness and unhappiness and there won't
be any joy that will work itself into your life.
If that's what you believe your life will be like,
it will work itself into it. And then you will
say the Church like, I am just what the Church
(33:30):
told me I was going to be.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
There's a lot of power in our language over others
and over ourselves, and that is those are powerful statements
that I do think our lives will come into alignment
with that. We don't want our lives to come into alignment.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
With Yeah, And I think if you spend your time
doing that. If you spend your time looking in the
rear view mirror and judging your life based on what
this institution, this principality thinks of you, you will spend
(34:09):
it always second guessing yourself, always saying, am I making
the right choice? Where am I going on this path? Right?
And I think what's what is a better way? And
a better path is to align yourself with something that
speaks life into you. Right that where you not just
(34:34):
say I'm going to stay stuck in the past, me
being an ex Mormon, but I'm going to move forward.
And where I found life is in Jesus. Where I said, Jesus,
You're in control. Now, you're in control of my life.
I am just following your lead. When I decided to
(34:59):
make that again in there were things that came up
that made me say, oh, I'm not I'm not super
happy about this, and maybe I question and then I
look at it again and I say, Okay, God, you
are still you are still the captain of my life. Okay,
you are still the one that I am choosing to follow.
(35:22):
And then you look at the fruit that comes from that,
and I think that that's really beautiful. And I think
that's how you break that cycle that you were that
you were stuck in, right.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I think a disclaimer is good here because this that
is a really powerful, simple, simplified truth, and if you
dig deeper, there's multiple layers to that, like somewhere we
have to find truth and you and I hope that
(35:59):
people find truth in God's word and align themselves to
God God's Word, and then there is some truth to
a life of darkness which is not apart from an organization,
but it's apart from a relationship with Jesus. So again,
the best lies which sounds harsh, but the best lies
have truth in them. But the truth, you got to
(36:21):
go to the original truth, the whole truth, which is
found in God's Word.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think that if people are struggling
with this, I would be so bold to say that
you should lay all of your care and worry at
the cross of Jesus, like if you are really And
(36:47):
I know that I've been maybe a little bit cooy
or a little like keeping the cards close through this,
you know podcast, but I do I I firmly believe
that that if you like that will be the anchor
for your life. Is putting it all at the cross
(37:10):
at Jesus' feet, letting your life be guided by the Bible, Like,
have the Bible be that standard for you, and have
that be your guide, not the opinion of some people, right,
not the opinion of the church, not the opinion of
(37:31):
your family or your siblings, or your spouse or whatever,
but just the view that God has of you, Like
that should be really the only thing that matters. And
that's what will give you peace and clarity in this life.
And that might and guidance, And that might not be
(37:53):
in the moment. That might be, like I said, three
years down the line, when you look at what the
Lord's done, when you look at how things have changed
in your life, that that may be that moment, right,
And so I just I think it's I think that's
what's important, is to break that curse, to break that
(38:15):
chain that a lot of people might be under as
they look at their lives and unfortunately, as they continue
to look in the rear view mirror as opposed to
stepping forward and moving forward in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, there's an interesting comparison there. If you were to
think about an abusive relationship and how many times and
often cases, a woman can be told by an abusive partner,
you'll never make it, You'll never you'll never be able
to make it on your own. You're two weak, you're
not strong enough, You're never going to be happy without me,
(38:53):
or even worse, you know, I'll find you or something.
But it's it isn't until that relationship is in the
rearview mirror that you even can stop and go, Okay,
where am I actually going? And look, I walked away
from that, so now I have all this open road
in front of you. Where do I want to go?
So there's a lot of freedom and future for people
(39:15):
who are able to put that behind them.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think that the local church is
a great way to have people breathe life into you
if you are feeling like there is a lot of darkness.
I've had as a non believer, as somebody who just
was a person who is attending church with my wife,
(39:40):
I've had so many people breathe life into me. And
I think that that's just like super important for me
to put out there, is that you want to be
in those situations where where life and optimism and positivity
is put into you and then and you have this
relationship with Jesus, so yeah on that. If you have
(40:03):
any comments on this episode, you can reach out to
us at Jesus for Mormons at gmail dot com or
put a comment in below. You know, if you're watching
this on YouTube, our channel is doing super well, way
better than I ever anticipated. So if you want to
(40:24):
subscribe and help that, I think it helps our channel
move somewhere, which is kind of cool. I always thought
if we have over fifty subscribers, that is a huge win,
and so here we are. It's doing a little bit
better than that. So if you want to subscribe to
this or like it or share it, feel free to
do that. Did do you have any final comments before
(40:48):
we end this episode?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
My final comment is I just met a young adult
last Sunday at church who left the Mormon church that
you grew up in and is lost and just said,
do you have any resources you can give me for
what I do next? And I said, yes, I do.
So she's a new listener.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
There we go. Hey, that's one of my favorite new sayings.
It ain't odd, it's God. Come on.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh wow, yeah, so cheesy.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's how you know. I'm a father of three right there?
Well yeah, dad jokes come in or dad lines come in.
So yeah, if you if you have somebody who grew
up in the Mormon Church and you want to share
this with them, feel free and feel free to have
them reach out to us and do that. So yeah,
until next time,
Hi, and welcome to this episode of Jesus for Mormons.
I am joined by my co host die Biels. Die,
I got a question for you. Okay, have you ever
had someone speak death over your life?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
You want me to answer that? Now? Yes, I'll just
say yes. But let's see how you take that.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
All right, Well, today we are talking about the ex
Mormon curse and we are going to unravel this a
little bit. We're gonna explain what the ex Mormon curse is.
But Die, we can't continue on. We have to hear
(00:46):
when is a moment that someone spoke death over your life?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, the first thing that popped in my head is
gonna make my dad sound so mean, But he was
a teenager when he had me, so he was still young.
But I remember one of my earliest memories as a
child is playing with my friends out in the yard
and my dad pulling me aside and saying, you can't
(01:12):
be so bossy, or you're gonna grow up and no
one will ever want to be your friend, and that
is no one. It stuck with me from when I
think it was four when he said that to me,
or five, and I still remember it. And then when
I had my own daughter, and she also has a
proclivity to like to be in charge. I decided that
(01:33):
I would speak life over her and tell her always
that she had strong leadership potential, not that she was
bossy and would never have friends.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well there you go. Well, I think that's a really
good intro into our episode today where we are talking
about the ex Mormon curse, and so I wanted to
get into this a little bit. And I believe there
is actually this Pigmalion effect to those who leave the
(02:05):
Mormon Church, and let's talk about what that is. I know,
here's kind of trying to sound smarter.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like psychology today, a subscription or something.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, there we go. But the Pygmalion effect, or as
a lot of us know it as the self fulfilling prophecy,
so our belief and there's this. If you're watching this
as opposed to listening to it, you can kind of
follow along with this cycle that people find themselves in.
(02:35):
But there's a diagram here, and it says, our belief
about others influence our actions towards others, and those actions
towards others impact others beliefs about themselves. Okay, others beliefs
about themselves cause others actions towards us, and others actions
(02:59):
towards us reinforce our beliefs about others. So you can
see this cycle that happens. There was a study that
was done by psychologists Robert Rosenthal and Leonor Jacobson about this.
And Pygmalion is actually a Greek It's a Greek myth
(03:21):
about a sculptor who fell in love with this beautiful
statue and he loved the statue so much that he
created that it actually came to life. Right, So he
loves this thing. Maybe he's speaking it into life and
it gains life. And I think there's this Pygmalion effect
(03:46):
or self fulfilling prophecy that exists when someone leaves the
Mormon Church. And it's very subtle, but I think a
lot of us know when we hear, even when we
hear the term apostate, which I would consider myself to
be in that realm, somebody who left, I'll give this
(04:10):
one the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Saints way to get it in yep.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But someone who leaves the Mormon Church, they have this
idea in their mind that they're an apostate that they
have left the true religion and that doesn't that is
also not shied away from in church leadership. We have
(04:37):
president who is President of the Korm of the Twelve Apostles,
in his talk which this was a controversial talk. Oh
I didn't put the title on it, but this is
a controversial talk by Boyd Kate Packer, and he says,
remember when you see the bitter apostate. For those of
(04:58):
you who can't see the audio or the video, that's
pulling it myself. Maybe I shouldn't interrupt this. Okay, you
can't see, but it says, remembered the bitter apostate. You
do not see only the absence of light. You also
see the presence of darkness.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Did you also say the next sentence, do not spread
disease germs?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Do not spread disease germs?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Oh no, Kai anyway, wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So you left the Church of Jesus Christ with Latter
day Saints, you are now not just an apostate, but
a bitter apostle full of the presence of darkness, and
people should not associate with you because you spread the germs.
Is that how I'm understanding this?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
That is what he is saying here.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, so that you're so when you leave the church,
you are blackbald? Is it still actively participated in or proclaimed?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
They tried to dial it back recently by saying, be kind.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
But in a game while you're trying not to catch
the germs from the bitter apostates.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, but in a very Mormon way, they did not
address this quote. Right, So it's just like we're gonna
say something, but let's not like address like what was
Boyd K. Packer actually saying. Right, Gosh, if I could
stop saying the k Boyd Boyd Packer said this man
(06:43):
that feels so unnatural because it's always Boyd Elder Boyd K. Packer.
But he says, remember when you see the bitter apostate,
he's like speaking this into existence. Remember when you see
that bitter apos anyone who leaves the church, you not
(07:04):
only see the absence of light, okay, whatever that means,
but you also see the presence of darkness. Do not
the Yeah, do not catch the flu from these people.
The evils wear.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
A mask and don't catch COVID.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, there you go social distance from those people. All right,
Let's see if brig him young, my four time great grandfather.
Let's see if he sees any differently, have you enjoyed
yourself since resigning Mormonism? So this is him speaking. He's
(07:47):
he's talking about He's actually I believe he's talking about
Lyman Johnson leaving the church, which is a church history trail.
You can go down now, speak truth and tell us
as it is. Have you experienced joy and happiness since
leaving the Kingdom of God? Come now, don't lie, brothers answered?
(08:13):
So this is Lyman Johnson is who he's talking about,
and this is how he responded, I have not enjoyed
one day's peace since I left the church. This is
the declaration of the apostates today when they tell the
truth about it, look at their countenances. Is their happiness
(08:37):
depicted there? No, it is sorrow. They chose error instead
of truth, They love darkness rather than light, and the
end thereof to use scriptural language is death.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I find it interesting that a lot of the early
Mormon forefathers or whatever you call them, their language is
so similar to Scripture. It's interesting to me, like how,
I don't know. Maybe that's supposed to make you believe
it more.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I don't know, well, you've got to leverage whatever you can, right,
and speaking in a certain way gives you this authority,
as they would call it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
But I think it's interesting to say that here you are,
you have these leaders of the Mormon Church speaking something
over those who leave. Speaking this they would see as prophecy.
I would say it as self fulfilling. Unfortunately, a self
(09:50):
fulfilling prophecy that a lot of people experience. And then
when they go back to check themselves, they say, well,
I'm supposed to experience this, right if we go others
actions towards us reinforce our beliefs about others, and those
influence our actions. Os and the Pygmalion effect is something
(10:18):
that really hurts them that they've been told by these leaders.
I'm going to put that in air quotes and prophets
of God, also in air quotes, that they're supposed to
experience this bitterness and this sadness and this absence of light.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Right. Well, and interestingly, this Brigham Young quote is obviously
missing context, which I know is what you're getting at,
because what if the context is, well, everyone that that
guy knew has now turned against him, So yes, he
is not happy or he has had no peace, but
(11:01):
that's just missing the context of why does he have
no peace? So they want the idea is that you
believe it's because he left the Mormon Church.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah. Yeah, and so it makes it even worse, right
for people, Let's say you grew up in a community
where you built your whole life around the Mormon Church, right,
all of your contacts, all of your people, and they
kind of say, oh, I don't want to get that
disease from kai, and so they turn against you, right,
(11:34):
and they don't want to have or I think this
is more common. People who leave the church feel that
those at the church don't want anything to do with them.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah. OK, and maybe you're not invited to all the
things you used to be invited to, And maybe there's
a little bit of fairness to that because maybe they
have church context to them, and the assumption is you
wouldn't want anything to do with that. But if your
kids stop being invited to birthday parties and you're not
invited to the you know, the family get together or
(12:07):
the neighborhood get together, yeah, of course you'd you'd have
a lot of feelings that go with that, that that
you become a self fulfilling propsy, just like you said.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes. Yeah, And I think at some point you may
even begin to believe the lie a little bit. Yeah,
you may begin to say, oh, maybe this is because
I left the church. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Then you add in like your car breaks down and
your water heater fails, and you're like, huh, I'm cursed
because I left the church.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, we're going to get into that diet. Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I actually had to look up these timelines to find
out and they are really scarily close to each other,
and it really it kind of it's it's interesting to
look back and put these together. I'm going to tell
a story about a dream that I had, and not
a physical dream, but just an aspiration I had at
(13:10):
fifteen years old, and it was to be the head
wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High School. Now, for those
of you who don't know, which is probably ninety nine
point ninety ninety nine percent of the population Lake Stephens
High School, they had eleven team state championships, forty one
(13:31):
individual state champions I was one of them. I won
a state title for Lake Stevens. It was my dream
to be the head wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High
School at fifteen years old. I remember wrestling in Idaho
and I am an anxious person. So this was probably
at one or two in the morning. I was doing
(13:53):
the math back on how old the head wrestling coach
was at Lake Stephens at Barnes, and I was like,
you know, I will be in my mid thirties probably
when he retires, and I would love that job. I
would love to take over for him. You fast forward
(14:15):
to me being in my mid thirties. I get a
call from his son and he says, Kai, me and
my dad have been talking about it, you are the
right person to take over the wrestling program at Lake Stevens.
So these are kind of the stars aligning, right. I'm
very happy about this. Now, let's look at where I
(14:37):
am in the story. I had left the Mormon Church.
At this point, I am coaching like crazy. I mean,
I am throwing myself at coaching as a way to
maybe not think about, you know, some of the hardship
of leaving. I'm trying to distract myself. So I am
(14:58):
fully involved with Lake Stevens wrestling. I'm there at every
practice doing everything you know that needs to happen. They say, Kai,
you are the right person for the job. I start
working with his dad. His dad starts kind of coaching
me on what he does. I develop practice plans, and
I've always developed Okay, you guys, let's just get let's
(15:22):
just talk about the elephant in the room. I'm a psycho,
Okay when it comes to wrestling. I was very, very crazy.
I wasn't planning on doing this, but hold on one.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Second day, Okay, oh a prop.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
This is every wrestling plan I've ever done as a coach.
So like you can, I can go back to this
practice plan and show you everything I've ever done as
far as coaching. These are some kids that I coached.
And anyways, I'm very I take coaching very seriously. And
(16:00):
so they had asked me, kind of gave me the nod,
and I thought, gosh, this coach who has been here,
he's been a coach for thirty five years, but probably
thirty years at Lake Stevens. Wow, he wants me to
be the next guy. And I would think this would
kind of give me, you know, choe in to be
(16:21):
this guy. So it comes around I'm going to share
the screen here and he ends up retiring. So, for
those of you who are maybe listening to this audio,
it says in this article, it says coaching legend Lake Stephens,
Brent Barnes leaves legacy of success and innovation. And this
(16:45):
was the article about him retiring from his position. So
I am like all on board. All the assistant coaches
who were at Lake Stephens High School, they were all like, Ki,
we'd love for you to be the coach. I am
all in, okay, And if you know me, when I
(17:05):
go all in, I don't casually go all in. I
am fully engrossed.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
In this Kamikazi Kai.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Oh. My wife is just like Kai, you do not
have to go so hardcore on everything.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
She's a good balance to you.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Not true, I gotta go go really heavy. So he
ends up retiring. I end up interviewing for the job.
As far as I know, there are two applicants, okay,
me and another friend of mine, someone that you know
I definitely had associations with, didn't graduate from from the
(17:48):
same school, wasn't coached as a wrestler on a coach Barnes,
but had been on the coaching staff previously. I like
this guy. I'm not bagging on this guy. Okay, we
both interview for the job and we kind of leave
it there. For those of you who do job interviews,
(18:08):
there's usually a pretty big lag between when you interview
for the job there can be, and when you actually
get the position. So I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm still
coaching a ton. We go through a whole middle school
season where I'm the head coach. We come to this
(18:29):
point where I get a call where I have where
I had not been chosen as the head wrestling coach
of Lake Stevens. I came in second place out of
two people.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
You had a fifty to fifty chance.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I had a fifty to fifty chance. And it's
our work. Now, I think what's interesting about this and
how this ties into this whole. I went back and
I looked at the dates on this story just to
make sure. On April seventeenth of twenty twenty two, I
(19:13):
gave my life to christ. I laid it all down.
I said, Jesus, I just want to follow you for
the rest of my life and be a follower. Three
weeks later, I get told I did not get the
coaching job. Right, And there is this idea that you
(19:37):
didn't get the coaching job because you left the Mormon Church.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
How fast did it take you to come to that
have that thought pop in your head?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Not long? Okay, right, this idea that there is no
light that's going to happen, that I am just this
angry and bitter apostate, spreading dry, spreading germs. Maybe this
is a way to keep me away from other people,
(20:11):
so I couldn't spread that on kids who I'm trying
to coach. There was this very like dark time where
I'm super upset and I'm super disappointed that I didn't
get what i wanted, something I look forward to, I
don't know, twenty years, eighteen years, seventeen years, this getting
(20:33):
this coaching job, right, And I think that that can
creep back in. And that's why, really the title of
this is the ex Mormon curse. Right. You were kind
of given this this, Hey, this is what your life
is going to look like outside of the church, and
(20:54):
then when something bad does happen, you say, well, there
you go, yeah there there.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
My My thinking on this is the best lies always
have some truth in them, and so we automatic I
there is some truth to the fact that without Jesus
our life is darker, lacking peace. But certainly the truth
(21:33):
is not if you're struggling, ever, it's because you're not
wholeheartedly serving God. That that's just not the truth. We're
not guaranteed an easy road, but there there is some
some truth in there, and that is that's a that's
tricky to navigate that, it's it's very controlling to put
that out there. And then anytime people have something go wrong,
(21:55):
human nature is to ask, why is this happening to me?
Is God mad at me? Did I do something wrong?
And if you did just do something that a group
of people that you used to align with think is wrong,
it would be hard to not immediately go to, well,
I deserved this, this is what they warned me of.
That's how you How did you? What did you do
from there? How'd you navigate your way through that?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I would say I was pretty I'm gonna edit this.
I was pretty upset, let's just put it that way.
But I also had this calm assurance that I felt
that I was on the right track and this was
super disappointing. I'm not gonna downplay that at all and say, well,
(22:41):
I had Jesus in my heart and it was just all, Okay, No,
I was very disappointed. It's just I'm just gonna put
that out there. It was very very disappointed, and it
made me second guess some things. But I also die
in the same set that I was hardcore about coaching,
(23:03):
was the same sense that I didn't just halfheartedly give
my life to Christ r. Yeah, these things are. I
was intentional and planning and methodical, and I said, these
are the terms if I Jesus, you are the captain
(23:24):
of my ship for the rest of my life. And
I saw this negative thing happening, and I kind of
was mourning a little bit and upset about it. But
at the same time, God, this is in your hands,
and I'm handing this whole thing over to you.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You're still you were anchored to something bigger than this event.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And I think in
that way, me, you know, becoming saved and giving my
life over to Jesus, I think was a really positive
thing and something that kind of helped me navigate this
really hard situation. I think it's great looking back hindsight
(24:11):
that I can see how close these dates were because
I remember them being like right on top of each other.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Oh, they pretty much are pretty close.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah. Yeah, they are very very close to close to
each other. And so I kind of wanted to talk
a little bit about Fast forward to now right, fast
forward to the present day. And my wife and I
on Saturday are kind of sitting and where we are
(24:43):
sitting on I'm not trying to be you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Know or whatever. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
This is the middle of this is the middle of winter.
I am sitting on the most beautiful beach in the world.
No one is around us. I'm sitting on a beach chair.
Just woke up from a nap underneath a tree, right,
I mean, it is the most ideal setting you could
possibly ask for. Right, I wake up? My wife and
(25:14):
I I talked to the state wrestling tournament in Washington State.
Just happened last weekend or the weekend before. And I'm
talking to my wife about coaching, and she said, Hi,
would any of this happened if you had gotten the
head coaching job at Lake Stephen's High School? And I mean,
(25:38):
I'm sitting with this picturesque view right celebrating my one
year old's birthday. He's crawling on the beach looking out
beautiful beach. Got my two kids, trying to fish over
on the side my beautiful wife, which the two kids
and wife would have still been there, but not this setting.
(26:01):
And she says, well, would what would our life had
look like if you had gotten that job? I said,
there is no way. I mean, I would have been
anchored to that wrestling program for the rest of my life.
There's no way I would have ventured out into anything else.
(26:24):
And I just I look at it as such a
blessing now, right, that I didn't get that coaching job. Yeah,
just like such a blessing, this thing that I thought
was such a curse. And I was so upset and
so annoyed by but at the same time I had
(26:46):
this assurance from God that hey, God, you are the
captain of my ship. You are the one who is
guiding everything. I'm putting my trust in you. Three weeks
in feeling a little bit not so happy about that,
(27:06):
but you know what, I'm just I handed this all
over to you, and you are the one who is
who is guiding this. And then and then to get
this perspective three years later, it's just awesome. Yeah, it's
just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I like that. You said something a little bit ago
you said you were second guessing, so you gave your
life to Jesus. You made this declaration of being all in.
You're a very all in person, and then you have
this big disappointment and you second guess. And I just
that struck me because I think second guessing gets a
(27:48):
bad rap because it it sounds doubtful, but yet second
guessing helps us go. I mean, if I put it
in construction terms, which should be you doing that, not me.
But you know, if you build something and then you
have a moment where you're like, wait, did I set
that foundation correctly? Or you second guess and you go
(28:09):
back and check and you find that it is in
fact sturdy to build on. I feel like that that
has a healthy connotation to it. So three weeks in,
when you could easily be thrown from this, you know,
new choice for your life, you went back and checked
and found that it was it was solid to build
your life on, and it has proven to be so yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, and then we even look at three four years
later and looking back on what the Lord's done, I
mean it's amazing, right, I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Out at this just built something beautiful.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah, this ideal thing, and I'm I'm just so grateful
for that. There's a few verses that, oh, here's this, Oh,
come on, you guys ready for this. Here's a picture
from my little baby first yeah, first year. Look at him,
this beautiful baby. Walking on the baby was not part
(29:10):
of the plan. The baby was after being saved and saying, okay,
what should we do? And I'm going to do an
episode on that. But and then to the left is
us getting on the plane on our first flight over
to Hawaii and moving over here. And so I don't know,
I just look at like what the Lord's done, and
(29:33):
I'm just like so happy with those results. It was
not something that I orchestrated. Me orchestrating things is me
being the head wrestling coach of Lake Stephens High School, right,
That is me planning and scheming and trying to get
where I want to be and what I've dreamed of doing.
(29:56):
And you know, the Lord really guided me in this,
in this other direction that is so fulfilling and so beautiful.
I want to get back to this idea of this
ex Mormon curse and I think that it's really cool
that when you hear these maybe psychological phenomenons and then
(30:22):
you see how in God's word, you know, they kind
of front run these ideas. You know, God, God kind
of has has maybe more than these two psychologists, and
he's said so. In Galatians six, it says, do not
be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatever one sows, he
(30:44):
will also reap. For the one who sows his own
flesh will also reap corruption. But the one who sows
the spirit will from this from the spirit reap eternal life.
Let us not grow and doing good for induce season.
We will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
(31:08):
So you know, I had kind of sown this seed,
and you know, maybe when it was starting to come up,
I wondered if it was actually going to come up right, Okay,
me being fully transparent and honest. I think this is
(31:29):
also really important when we read these quotes from previous
prophets and apostles that come in where we think about
how we should view ourselves. When you think about Elder
Packer saying that distance yourself from ex Mormons because they are,
(31:52):
you know, have only darkness inside them, I think it's
important to keep in mind that in Proverbs eighteen, it
says that the tongue can bring death or life, and
those who love to talk will reap the consequences. So
here I envision these speakers for the Mormon Church bringing
(32:17):
death to those who have left right and creating this
self fulfilling prophecy for them for those who have left.
So this is the big question. When does leaving the
Mormon Church become a curse? And I put curse in
(32:43):
quotation marks all right, I believe that when leaving the
Mormon Church, when it becomes a curse is when you
look in the rear view mirror and you say, the
Church was right about me, and my life is meant
(33:07):
to be full of darkness and unhappiness and there won't
be any joy that will work itself into your life.
If that's what you believe your life will be like,
it will work itself into it. And then you will
say the Church like, I am just what the Church
(33:30):
told me I was going to be.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
There's a lot of power in our language over others
and over ourselves, and that is those are powerful statements
that I do think our lives will come into alignment
with that. We don't want our lives to come into alignment.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
With Yeah, And I think if you spend your time
doing that. If you spend your time looking in the
rear view mirror and judging your life based on what
this institution, this principality thinks of you, you will spend
(34:09):
it always second guessing yourself, always saying, am I making
the right choice? Where am I going on this path? Right?
And I think what's what is a better way? And
a better path is to align yourself with something that
speaks life into you. Right that where you not just
(34:34):
say I'm going to stay stuck in the past, me
being an ex Mormon, but I'm going to move forward.
And where I found life is in Jesus. Where I said, Jesus,
You're in control. Now, you're in control of my life.
I am just following your lead. When I decided to
(34:59):
make that again in there were things that came up
that made me say, oh, I'm not I'm not super
happy about this, and maybe I question and then I
look at it again and I say, Okay, God, you
are still you are still the captain of my life. Okay,
you are still the one that I am choosing to follow.
(35:22):
And then you look at the fruit that comes from that,
and I think that that's really beautiful. And I think
that's how you break that cycle that you were that
you were stuck in, right.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I think a disclaimer is good here because this that
is a really powerful, simple, simplified truth, and if you
dig deeper, there's multiple layers to that, like somewhere we
have to find truth and you and I hope that
(35:59):
people find truth in God's word and align themselves to
God God's Word, and then there is some truth to
a life of darkness which is not apart from an organization,
but it's apart from a relationship with Jesus. So again,
the best lies which sounds harsh, but the best lies
have truth in them. But the truth, you got to
(36:21):
go to the original truth, the whole truth, which is
found in God's Word.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think that if people are struggling
with this, I would be so bold to say that
you should lay all of your care and worry at
the cross of Jesus, like if you are really And
(36:47):
I know that I've been maybe a little bit cooy
or a little like keeping the cards close through this,
you know podcast, but I do I I firmly believe
that that if you like that will be the anchor
for your life. Is putting it all at the cross
(37:10):
at Jesus' feet, letting your life be guided by the Bible, Like,
have the Bible be that standard for you, and have
that be your guide, not the opinion of some people, right,
not the opinion of the church, not the opinion of
(37:31):
your family or your siblings, or your spouse or whatever,
but just the view that God has of you, Like
that should be really the only thing that matters. And
that's what will give you peace and clarity in this life.
And that might and guidance, And that might not be
(37:53):
in the moment. That might be, like I said, three
years down the line, when you look at what the
Lord's done, when you look at how things have changed
in your life, that that may be that moment, right,
And so I just I think it's I think that's
what's important, is to break that curse, to break that
(38:15):
chain that a lot of people might be under as
they look at their lives and unfortunately, as they continue
to look in the rear view mirror as opposed to
stepping forward and moving forward in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, there's an interesting comparison there. If you were to
think about an abusive relationship and how many times and
often cases, a woman can be told by an abusive partner,
you'll never make it, You'll never you'll never be able
to make it on your own. You're two weak, you're
not strong enough, You're never going to be happy without me,
(38:53):
or even worse, you know, I'll find you or something.
But it's it isn't until that relationship is in the
rearview mirror that you even can stop and go, Okay,
where am I actually going? And look, I walked away
from that, so now I have all this open road
in front of you. Where do I want to go?
So there's a lot of freedom and future for people
(39:15):
who are able to put that behind them.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think that the local church is
a great way to have people breathe life into you
if you are feeling like there is a lot of darkness.
I've had as a non believer, as somebody who just
was a person who is attending church with my wife,
(39:40):
I've had so many people breathe life into me. And
I think that that's just like super important for me
to put out there, is that you want to be
in those situations where where life and optimism and positivity
is put into you and then and you have this
relationship with Jesus, so yeah on that. If you have
(40:03):
any comments on this episode, you can reach out to
us at Jesus for Mormons at gmail dot com or
put a comment in below. You know, if you're watching
this on YouTube, our channel is doing super well, way
better than I ever anticipated. So if you want to
(40:24):
subscribe and help that, I think it helps our channel
move somewhere, which is kind of cool. I always thought
if we have over fifty subscribers, that is a huge win,
and so here we are. It's doing a little bit
better than that. So if you want to subscribe to
this or like it or share it, feel free to
do that. Did do you have any final comments before
(40:48):
we end this episode?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
My final comment is I just met a young adult
last Sunday at church who left the Mormon church that
you grew up in and is lost and just said,
do you have any resources you can give me for
what I do next? And I said, yes, I do.
So she's a new listener.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
There we go. Hey, that's one of my favorite new sayings.
It ain't odd, it's God. Come on.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh wow, yeah, so cheesy.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's how you know. I'm a father of three right there?
Well yeah, dad jokes come in or dad lines come in.
So yeah, if you if you have somebody who grew
up in the Mormon Church and you want to share
this with them, feel free and feel free to have
them reach out to us and do that. So yeah,
until next time,
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